1 Thursday, 3 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
6 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 Do we have problems? Are you receiving interpretation?
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am receiving
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
12 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.
14 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in
15 a language that you can understand?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
17 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
19 Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Good morning, Your Honours. I appear for the
21 Prosecution, together with my colleagues, Mr. Jose Doria, and our case
22 manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, Mr. Wubben wishes me to advise you
25 that he's unable to be here this morning because he has a commitment in
1 another case.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio, and good morning to you
3 and your team.
4 Appearances for Naser Oric.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am
6 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, appearing for Mr. Naser
7 Oric. We have with us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our
8 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.
10 Any preliminaries before we proceed?
11 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You know that we will be sitting right
13 through to 11, rather than have a break at 10.30. We'll work until 11,
14 saving any request from the technicians for a short break to change tapes,
15 if necessary. At 11, we need to stop, because I have a personal matter
16 that I have to attend to.
17 You could please -- could you please bring in the witness. We
18 don't need to go into private session for the time being, no? Because the
19 curtains are drawn in our case.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: WITNESS C007 [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, sir, and welcome back.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Thank
25 you very much.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be proceeding with your direct, with the
3 Do you think that you will finish today, Mr. Di Fazio? I suppose
4 so, no?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: The only thing that might take a little time with
6 this witness is some of the documents towards the end of my
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: But I'll try and whip through those as fast as
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not hurrying. This is a witness who was
12 mentioned in the -- who is a crucial witness, in any case, so I think we
13 will need to give him our utmost attention, both Prosecution and Defence.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: And, unfortunately, and I hope this doesn't happen,
15 but if, unfortunately, I haven't finished today, I am confident that we
16 will have finished the lion's share, and it'll just be a matter of
17 wrapping it up on the day after. But I'll do my best to finish today.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
20 Q. Witness C007, yesterday we got to the point where you had finished
21 describing your arrival in Srebrenica, the beatings that you suffered at
22 the police station, and your transfer to what was to be your place of
23 incarceration for some months. Do you recall that evidence?
24 A. When we were being held in detention, after that -- I'm not sure
25 what you have in mind. How long was I there for, or what?
1 Q. No, I'm just reminding you to the point to which we got, and now
2 I'll ask the question that I want to put to you. You were incarcerated in
3 this prison in Srebrenica. I want you now to tell the Trial Chamber the
4 names, the personalities, who were inside the cell with you at the prison.
5 A. Yes. Well, yes, the persons were Branko Sekulic, Dragan Ilic, and
6 the man from Kalabace, whose name escapes me right now. He was a soldier,
7 and the name escapes me.
8 Q. You mentioned a gentleman yesterday who had been incarcerated with
9 you in the stable who was taken with you, Jakov Dzokic. Was he also in
10 the prison cell in Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's true. I couldn't remember his name for a
12 while there. Jakov Dzokic.
13 Q. Were there any men who you only know by nickname?
14 A. I heard the names of two persons, Mico and Kosta. I don't know
15 their last names.
16 Q. About how old was Mico and about how old was Kosta?
17 A. Well, I can tell you only what I remember. I think they must have
18 been about 40 or 50 years of age. I'm not sure if the two of them were
19 the same age, or if one was younger and the other slightly older.
20 Q. Thank you. Earlier you mentioned that there were two men --
21 sorry, I'll withdraw that. Earlier you mentioned that some of the inmates
22 came from a place called Kalabace. Did Kosta or Mico come from Kalabace,
23 or are you talking about other men?
24 A. No. Dzokic was the only person from Kalabace.
25 Q. Do you recall being informed or told where Mico came from or where
1 Kosta came from?
2 A. Well, people said that they were from Kravica, but I can't be
3 certain about that.
4 Q. When you say "people said that they were from Kravica," is that
5 something you learned after your release? Or are you talking about
6 information you received while you were incarcerated, inside the prison
8 A. While I was incarcerated, I heard the words "Mico" and" Kosta"
9 being called out. I heard those names being called out. I'm not sure in
10 relation to whom, but those names were called out among the people who
11 were imprisoned.
12 Q. Okay. But did you ever hear from Kosta or Mico, did you ever hear
13 from their mouths, that they were from a particular place?
14 A. No, never. I don't know where they come from.
15 Q. Thank you. And what ethnicity were Kosta and Mico?
16 A. Mico was an ethnic Serb, and Kosta as well. These are Serb names.
17 Q. Thank you. In addition to the names you've told us about now,
18 were there any inmates in the cell who were elderly men, older men?
19 A. There was an old man, aged 60 or more. I don't know where from.
20 And there was a deaf and dumb person, middle-aged. That's what I
22 Q. Do you know of a place in Bosnia called Zenica?
23 A. I've heard of the place but I've never been there, so I'm not sure
24 about its exact location.
25 Q. Did you hear about the place while you were in custody?
1 A. Yes, that's where I heard about it, because there was a man from
2 Zenica there. I heard that he was from Zenica, but I can't remember his
3 first or last name.
4 Q. You earlier described, just a short moment ago, an old man aged 60
5 or more. Is he the one from Zenica?
6 A. No. I don't know where that man was from, but I don't think he
7 was from Zenica. Probably not. Actually, I can't be positive about this.
8 Q. During your stay in the prison, did you notice the presence of
9 children at all?
10 A. Yes. There was a young boy, aged, perhaps, 8 or 10. He would
11 come to see us. And he told us that the old man was actually his
13 Q. How often did you see this child?
14 A. Two or three times. Perhaps more. I can't be sure now. Two or
15 three times, that much is certain.
16 Q. Inside the cell?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for that. Thank you.
20 Q. All right. When you arrived in Srebrenica, did you have any
21 personal identification with you; your papers, your documents, your ID
22 card, driver's license, that sort of thing?
23 A. Yes, I had my ID, my military identification booklet, and I had
24 the license for the rifle that I had from before the war. And all of
25 these were taken from me.
1 Q. Okay. Were they taken whilst in Srebrenica, or were they taken
2 earlier when you were in the stable?
3 A. In Srebrenica, once I was there.
4 Q. Thank you. And just very briefly, you mentioned that you had a
5 military identification booklet. What did that -- what is it? And when
6 did you get that, and what does it relate to?
7 A. It's called a military identification booklet from the former JNA,
8 the military service I did there. I had the military identification
9 booklet, I had my ID, and the license for my rifle. Those are the things
10 that I would usually carry whenever I went to Serbia.
11 Q. From where -- from what year, what period of time, did the
12 military identification booklet relate to?
13 A. The booklet dates back to 1975 and 1976. That was when I did my
14 compulsory military service, from 1975 on.
15 Q. Thank you. I'll turn to another topic now.
16 In the time that you were in the prison in Srebrenica, were you
18 A. Yes, people were being beaten. How much and who exactly, I really
19 can't say. But we were beaten, that's certain. I still have a mark on my
20 left shoulder blade and on my head, a sharp object, some sort of a sharp
21 implement. Whether it was a knife or a bayonet, I really can't say. I
22 only know that I still have a scar on my head.
23 Q. Okay. Witness, I'd like to take you through the beatings, and
24 just answer the questions as briefly as you can and we can get through
25 this faster.
1 Firstly, just tell me this: Were you the only person subjected to
2 beatings, or were all the other inmates that you have described so far
3 also subjected to beatings?
4 A. Others were also subjected to beatings, as well as myself.
5 Whenever they came in to beat me, obviously, no one stayed behind.
6 Q. In effect, no one was spared.
7 A. No one, not to the extent that I was able to see. I don't think
8 anyone was spared.
9 Q. We'll get to the period of your release from prison later. But
10 from the time that you entered the prison in Srebrenica to the time you
11 were taken away from the prison, was there ever any cessation in the
12 beatings? In other words, did days or more significant periods of time
13 ever pass when you were without being assaulted and attacked?
14 A. Well, this could only have happened when we were taken to the
15 hospital. I'm not sure how many days they gave me. One, two, or three
16 days, that was how long I remained at the hospital. But that was the
17 period during which we were not beaten.
18 Q. Thank you. As a result of these beatings, did you and did the
19 other inmates bleed?
20 A. Of course. Everyone was bleeding, and everyone was black and
22 Q. We'll get into the details slowly. First of all, could you see
23 blood on walls, the walls of your cell?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you see blood on the floor?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. All over the place. On the floor. Depends on where each of us
2 were beaten.
3 Q. Just answer my questions, if you can, with a yes or no at this
4 stage. Could you see blood on the faces of your fellow inmates?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you see blood on their clothes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Following the beatings, could you see signs of attack or assault
9 on the faces of your fellow inmates? And by that I'm referring to things
10 like cut lips or black eyes?
11 A. Yes, black eyes, swellings as a result of blows, swellings to the
12 flesh. People had black eyes, blood on their faces. I can't say I
13 remember any cuts specifically.
14 Q. Thank you. Did the beatings occur during the day as well as the
16 A. Yes, both day and night. I'm speaking about Srebrenica.
17 Q. I understand that there was no electricity in Srebrenica at that
18 time. How were the beatings conducted at night?
19 A. There was no electricity. They had candles, and they would light
20 bits of paper wrapped around wooden sticks. They would light those, bring
21 them inside, and use these bits of paper to watch us.
22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if, during the course of these
23 beatings, whether you suffered loss of consciousness, and whether you saw
24 your fellow inmates also suffer a loss of consciousness, following the
1 A. I, for one, certainly did, and most probably others also suffered
2 loss of consciousness. Once they had been beaten, they would probably
3 just fall down. I can speak about myself. I certainly was unconscious,
4 and that's the reason I don't know many of the things that happened.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if instruments were
6 used during these attacks?
7 A. They used bludgeons or sticks that they would use to beat us. I,
8 for one, was being kicked by a man who was wearing military boots. He
9 would kick me in the chest and beat me, and I was not exactly fully aware
10 of what was going on around me.
11 Q. Were rifle butts used?
12 A. Yes, that too.
13 Q. I want to know something about the perpetrators of these attacks.
14 Firstly, were any guards, guards in the prison, involved in the attacks?
15 A. I'm not sure who they were. Whether they were guards or what
16 else, I really can't say. The man who beat me came frequently to beat me.
17 I'm speaking about myself. I'm not sure if it was the same man who was
18 beating the others too. As for the rest of them, I used to know one of
19 them. Those were people who were rather young at the time. They could
20 have been aged 20, 25, 30. They were quite young.
21 Q. Thank you. Your last answer tends to imply that there was one
22 person who beat you. Is that the case, or is it the case that you had --
23 you suffered beatings at the hands of more than one person?
24 A. There was this one man whom I met who beat me. But other people
25 came in to beat me and beat the rest of us. Others would come in too.
1 But the beatings were predominantly administered by this one man, the one
2 who kicked me with his boots.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you see if your assailants were dressed in
4 civilian clothes?
5 A. The one who beat me was dressed predominantly in civilian clothes,
6 but he did have the military boots. As for the rest, some had military
7 uniforms and some didn't, and certainly not all of them were wearing
9 Q. You may or may not be able to remember this detail, but of the
10 ones who were dressed in uniform, do you recall if they were also armed at
11 the time that they carried out these attacks?
12 A. I remember that some carried weapons and some didn't. I really
13 find it difficult to specify who had what in terms of weapons. But they
14 did have some.
15 Q. Thank you. I want to turn your attention to the conditions that
16 existed inside the cell. Firstly, the food. What sort of food did you
18 A. The conditions were poor. There was a lot of dirt, and the food
19 was poor. They would bring us one or two meals a day, and sometimes no
20 meals at all. They would bring soup, for example. Something had been
21 cooked in it so there was soup left. We would be given that and a piece
22 of corn bread.
23 Q. Thank you. It was -- the period of time you were in Srebrenica
24 was in winter. What was the temperature like inside the cell?
25 A. It was wintertime. How should I know? I know that I was freezing
1 the whole time. So how low below freezing temperature, I really can't
3 Q. Was the cell dry?
4 A. The roof was raining through. The roof leaked. It had given way
5 in some places, so there was rain coming in through the roof.
6 Q. And you told us that when you were in the stable, you became
7 lice-ridden. Did you continue to suffer that condition in Srebrenica?
8 A. Yes, until we were taken to the hospital in Srebrenica.
9 Q. Thank you. In the midst of this, did you receive any visits from
10 any officials, Muslim officials? I mean men of Muslim ethnicity.
11 A. Yes. I remember that Zulfo Tursunovic - Zulfo is his first name
12 and Tursunovic is his last name - I remember him coming.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, first of all, had you ever met this person prior
14 to his arrival at the cell, your prison?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What did he look like?
17 A. He was a big man, wearing a moustache, and he had black hair. He
18 was perhaps over 2 metres in height, as far as I could see.
19 Q. What sort of build did he have?
20 A. He was well built, a very sturdy, big man. He was an elderly man,
21 but I do remember him being a very well-built man.
22 Q. Can you recall how often he came to the prison?
23 A. No. I only know that he came this once. I can't say for the
25 Q. You said that it was Zulfo Tursunovic who came. How do you know
1 it was Zulfo Tursunovic?
2 A. Because I heard from others that this man was Zulfo Tursunovic,
3 the man the people who were in prison with me knew.
4 Q. When he arrived, did he say anything about himself?
5 A. Yes, he did. He said that we should not worry, that we would all
6 be exchanged.
7 Q. Did he introduce himself?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. All right. Okay. Now, you said that he told you that you should
10 not worry, and that you would be exchanged. Did any of the inmates say
11 anything to him, for example, "When will we be exchanged?" or anything to
12 that effect?
13 A. I can't say. Somebody probably did ask that. I can't vouch for
14 that because I myself was unable to speak, I was in very bad shape. And I
15 don't recall anybody asking that question.
16 Q. All right. Now, earlier in your -- moments ago in your evidence,
17 you described what you could see around the walls, the interior of the
18 cell, and what you could see of the faces and the condition of the men.
19 I'm referring to the blood on the walls, the blood on the floor, the blood
20 on the clothing, the blood on the faces, bruised faces, black eyes, those
21 sorts of matters, those sorts of things. Were those sorts of things
22 present for Mr. Tursunovic to see when he entered the cell?
23 A. He must have seen those things as soon as he entered the cell.
24 Q. Did this utterance that you would be exchanged soon give you any
1 A. Let me tell you one thing: I wouldn't be able to tell you when
2 exactly he came and how much elapsed afterwards, but I do know that
3 exchanges of children did take place, that is, this one child that I heard
4 had been there and some women and this elderly man. So exchanges did take
5 place. Now, how long after his visit did they take place, or maybe they
6 took place before his visit. There were exchanges; I'm not sure whether
7 it was before his visit or afterwards.
8 Q. Thank you. You've told us of your initial arrival in Srebrenica,
9 at the police station where you were beaten, your transfer to the prison.
10 At any time did -- were you interrogated, asked questions about yourself,
11 your personal background, and so on?
12 A. Not in Srebrenica. It was the case in Konjevic Polje, but not in
13 Srebrenica. I remember that there were these men who started beating us.
14 Who they were, I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I want to show the witness a document, if Your
17 Honours please, that will -- may tend to identify him; therefore, we
18 should go into private session.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 4545-4558 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Registrar, could I give you back P155, please.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. We're in open session now, I think.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we're in open session.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Good.
10 Q. I want to return you now to the issue of your inmates, and I want
11 to ask you what their fate was. You've mentioned their names already.
12 Dragan Ilic, can you recall what ultimately happened to him in the cells?
13 A. He died in prison.
14 Q. Was it preceded by a beating?
15 A. Yes, there were beatings being administered, naturally.
16 Q. Did you see his body?
17 A. I laid next to him. I was leaning my head against his body at the
18 moment he died. I felt his body go cold. It was all black and blue. His
19 flesh actually changed colour, which was a sign to me that he died.
20 Q. What happened to the body?
21 A. They took it away. I have no idea where to.
22 Q. Who took it away?
23 A. I don't know. How should I know? People came and took it away.
24 Q. You may have mentioned this, and I apologise if I ask you again.
25 About how old was he when he died?
1 A. He was quite young. He could have been between 17 and 20 years of
2 age. I can't be more specific. He was young, though.
3 Q. You've told us already that you were infested with lice. Was he
4 infested with lice when he died?
5 A. We all were.
6 Q. You mentioned a man named Kosta. What happened to him?
7 A. I heard from the others in prison that he too had died. It's
8 difficult for me to confirm whether that is true, but that's what I heard
9 in prison.
10 Q. When did you last see Kosta? Can you recall that?
11 A. You mean before the war?
12 Q. No, no, I mean in the cell. You didn't know him before the war,
13 did you?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. I'm now talking about the cell.
16 A. I can't give you the date or the month. When I arrived, I saw
17 him, but I don't know when this was. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know a man named Mico?
19 A. This is another name that I heard. He was in that room, in a
20 corner. Someone came, a neighbour of his purportedly, who beat him. But
21 I don't know Mico, because he doesn't come from my area. I heard they
22 were from Kravica, but I can't say.
23 Q. What happened to Mico?
24 A. I heard that he too had died. Whether it's the case or not, I
25 really don't know.
1 Q. What about Branko Sekulic? What happened to him?
2 A. Branko Sekulic died. He was together with me in prison, in
3 Cerska. He died, and Dragan Sekulic died too.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Dragan Ilic.
5 MR. DI FAZIO:
6 Q. Okay. Now, do I take it from your answer that Branko died in the
7 cell? Am I correct in that understanding, or not?
8 A. Yes, he died in the cell at the prison in Srebrenica.
9 Q. While you were present?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What happened to Branko's body?
12 A. His body too was taken away. I have no idea where to. It was
13 just taken away, simple as that.
14 Q. Who did you receive information from that Mico and Kosta had died?
15 You didn't see them -- your evidence is you didn't actually see them die,
16 as is the case with Dragan and Branko. So who told you that they died?
17 A. Branko, I saw him die and I saw them take his body away, but I
18 didn't see the other two. Other people told me that Kosta too had died,
19 but this was something I heard. This wasn't something that I actually saw
20 for myself; therefore, I can't confirm that.
21 Q. Yes, I understand that. But what I'm interested in is this: Who
22 told you, what was your source of information, that Kosta had died?
23 A. I was told by those people who were being held in detention there,
24 those elderly people and those other people whom I didn't know by name,
25 those of them who were still alive at the time.
1 Q. Okay. Well, how would they know if he died? They were locked up
2 with you, so how would they know that Kosta had passed away?
3 MR. JONES: Is that something this witness can answer? I don't
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe they told him.
6 A. Well, I can't say for sure whether their knowledge of his death
7 was certain. It's something they told me. But whether this information
8 was authentic or not is not something that I can say.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, they did not tell you how they came
10 by that information, whether it was some other inmates who told them that
11 or whether they had actually seen the body being carried out. They never
12 told you how they came to know.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
16 Q. You've mentioned in your evidence that you had periods of
17 unconsciousness as a result of beatings. Do you know how long you were
18 unconscious for on these occasions? I assume it varied. But were they
19 extended periods of time, or were you unconscious for a matter of minutes,
20 at the most, on each occasion?
21 A. Well, it's difficult for me to say for how long. I didn't know
22 the date, the month, or the time; therefore, I can't give you an accurate
23 assessment as to how long this lasted each time it happened. I only know
24 that I would lose consciousness and then regain consciousness at some
25 point, but I can't give you any other information on this.
1 Q. Okay. Earlier you touched upon the topic of you being taken to
2 hospital and, I think, also having something done about the lice from
3 which you suffered. Do you have any recollection of being taken to a
4 hospital in Srebrenica?
5 A. I do. We were in the hospital at Srebrenica, but I can't say how
6 many days. I remember they gave us jabs and pills, the doctors did.
7 While we were at the hospital, we were left in peace. No one touched us.
8 We were being treated for a while, after which we were taken back to the
10 Q. Okay. I now you can't say how long you were in hospital for, and
11 if you can't answer my question, feel free to say so. But can you tell us
12 if it was a matter of one or two days or a matter of weeks? Can you give
13 us any perspective at all on the sort of -- on the time period?
14 A. I'm not sure about several weeks. I can't specify the number of
15 days either, two, three, four, five, six days. I know that I was there
16 for some time, but I don't believe it was several weeks, not that long.
17 Q. All right. Thank you.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I think we need to go into private session again,
19 if Your Honours please.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour, because of a certain
22 exhibit I want to show the witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked you why, I could have anticipated why, but I
24 think the public ought to have some kind of an explanation why we are
25 going into private session needs to have an idea why.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: The document will identify this witness, and we
2 can't have that happen.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's go into private session,
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4565-4572 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, you were, of course, eventually released, and I want you to
15 tell us about that. You've told us the date, or what you believe to be
16 the date, of your release. Can you recall the day that you were released
17 from your prison?
18 A. I don't recall the date or anything that had to do with it. I
19 only know that when I was admitted to the hospital, that they entered my
20 name into the records there, but I don't know anything else. I just
21 recall that, in general, it was early spring, there wasn't snow around,
22 and that those were the only indications to me of what season it was.
23 Q. Okay. Who took you away from there?
24 A. The two men who were with me, we heard that the blue helmets had
25 come to pick us up. They were soldiers there at the time, and an
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 interpreter. And when they entered the premises, they asked for my name.
2 I told them my name, and then they told me, "You're going with us." They
3 never told me where I was going.
4 Q. Now, the men who told you "You're going with us," were they
5 wearing blue helmets?
6 A. Yes, they had blue helmets, or was it blue berets. I'm not sure.
7 But anyway, there was the UN sign on them, on these helmets or caps.
8 Q. Were they speaking a foreign language?
9 A. Yes, they were. I didn't understand the language. They probably
10 spoke English, but I couldn't tell. I suppose so.
11 Q. How did you actually physically get out of the cell and out into
12 the open? How did that -- how was that accomplished?
13 A. The interpreter told me to stand up and go along with them. I was
14 unable to stand up because my feet were swollen, full of fluid. And then
15 somebody went to fetch the stretcher, and as they brought the stretcher,
16 they placed me on it. And then there was this APC that they took me onto,
17 a white APC.
18 Q. Was that the UN vehicle?
19 A. Most probably. It was most probably the white APC belonging to
20 the United Nations.
21 Q. All right. And where were you taken?
22 A. I didn't know where they were taking us. I saw that there were
23 three men with us. I could hear one of them speak, that's what I
24 remember. And two of them were seated next to me, giving me chocolate to
25 eat, but I was unable to. Then, as there was lice crawling all over me,
1 they would be taking them off with their fingers, and they were really
2 appalled at what they saw, the state that I was in. Then I don't know
3 where they were taking me. I know that we were crossing the bridge
4 between Bratunac and Ljubovija. That much I could see from the vehicle.
5 Q. Did you eventually end up in a Serb hospital?
6 A. I have no idea whether I was in the hospital in Bratunac or not.
7 I only know that there was an ambulance that they were driving me in, and
8 there was this person dressed in a white coat there with me.
9 Q. Thank you. Just tell the Trial Chamber a few things about your
10 physical condition before you went into hospital. Had you lost weight?
11 A. According to the information gathered in the hospital, because
12 other than that I, for myself, was unable to know these things, I
13 approximately weighed 30 kilos. And I was lice-ridden. That was about
14 what -- the condition I was in.
15 Q. How much do you weigh now?
16 A. I weigh about 78 kilos, I believe. I haven't really measured my
17 weight recently.
18 Q. Thanks. Did you -- I'm not asking you whether, in fact, this
19 happened, but did you have any recollection, quite apart from what anyone
20 may have told you, but any recollection of breaking your ribs, of your
21 ribs being broken, when you were in hospital?
22 A. I was aching everywhere, but I do recall this pain in my left
23 side. But other than that, my head, my shoulder blade ached. The pain
24 was all over my body.
25 Q. Thank you. Obviously, you were treated by doctors in hospital. I
1 just want to run two names past you and see if they -- if you recall them.
2 Dr. Vajka Mitrovic, and a Dr. K. Bogicevic, do you have any recollection
3 or knowledge of those persons? If you don't, it's not a problem. But if
4 you do, just tell us.
5 A. Well, I don't remember their names. I might have known them at
6 the time, but I don't remember them now. There was this lady doctor who
7 took care of me, but I really can't remember her name now.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I've got one last document, and we
10 need to go into private session for that, and then we can go back into
11 open session and then I'll complete, I think, before 11.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,
13 please. We have another document that could uncover the identity of the
14 witness. So we need to go into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 4578 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4579 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, in all of the time that you were in the stable and in
5 Srebrenica, did anyone ever tell you or explain to you why it was that you
6 had been arrested and were being held in custody?
7 A. During my detention in Cerska, I inquired of some people who came
8 there what the motives or the reason for my arrest were, and the answer
9 they gave me was, "Your lot keeps arresting our lot, so we have to do the
10 same." So I believe that there was no reason, really, except for the fact
11 that I was of a different ethnicity. In my opinion, that was the only
13 Q. Thank you. Were you ever informed orally or in writing of any
14 charge, criminal charge, that had been leveled against you?
15 A. No, there were no criminal charges against me. I know that for a
17 Q. Apart from the UN soldiers who you saw on the day of your release,
18 were you ever visited by the Red Cross or given access to any legal
20 A. I don't recall any such thing, except for the hospital part that I
22 Q. Thank you for your assistance.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. We'll continue tomorrow.
25 MR. JONES: Yes, that seems right.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, just to assist the Trial Chamber in its
2 planning, do you think you would be in a position to finish tomorrow?
3 MR. JONES: Yes, certainly.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
5 MR. JONES: I think I should be able to take this witness fairly
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. And tomorrow is Friday, isn't it? So
8 there's no point in trying to start with another -- do you intend to start
9 with the next witness again tomorrow or not?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: We don't have one.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't have one. I would have thought so, I
12 mean, because this was scheduled to last three days in any case, this
14 So we have finished for today, and as soon as we leave this
15 courtroom, you will be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher, and
16 you will return tomorrow. In the meantime, please, may I remind you what
17 I told you yesterday, that between today and tomorrow, you're not to
18 discuss or have contact with anyone in relation to your testimony or the
19 subject matter of your testimony here, okay? I thank you.
20 We'll go out first, then draw down the curtains -- you know what
21 to do.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.56 a.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 4th day of
25 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.