Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4582

1 Friday, 4 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, Mr. Registrar. Could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours and

12 distinguished gentlemen. Yes, I can, in my native tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, and good morning to you. You

14 may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and good morning to the

17 Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution,

18 together with co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and Ms. Donnica

19 Henry-Frijlink as our case manager.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Registrar, my notebook is not registering anything.

21 I noticed that Judge Eser's is not registering either, while Judge

22 Brydensholt's is.

23 So, yes, Ms. Vidovic -- I see, I see. One moment.

24 Appearances for Naser Oric.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours and the

Page 4583

1 learned colleagues for the OTP. I'm Vasvija Vidovic, and together with

2 Mr. John Jones, I represent the Defence for Mr. Naser Oric. We have with

3 us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager,

4 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

6 Any preliminaries?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got one matter.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek leave to reopen my

11 examination-in-chief. That needn't alarm the Trial Chamber. I've only

12 got one highly specific topic. I estimate it will take me about two or

13 three minutes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: I wonder if we could have some indication as to what

16 that topic is and why it was not dealt with yesterday.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I think I can do that. I want to ask the

18 witness -- I assume we're -- is it necessary to go into private session?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. I don't know what you're going to

20 say.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is not present, in any case.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4584

1 (redacted) The reason I want to ask that is because of

2 certain Defence documents that the Defence will use, and it relates to

3 that date of the 17th and 18th of March.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think one needs to be practical about it.

5 MR. JONES: Yes, provided there are no new documents which

6 Mr. Di Fazio intends to use.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not going to. I'll give the documents to

8 the --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if it actually arises out of a document you

10 intend to use, he can always return to it on re-examination.

11 MR. JONES: Of course.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's be practical about it.

13 Yes, there is a further thing I wanted to raise with myself, after

14 discussing it with Judge Brydensholt and Judge Oric -- Judge Eser. And

15 this relates to -- let's go into private session for a while. I'm sorry,

16 Judge Eser.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)


Page 4585

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 [The witness entered court]

14 WITNESS: WITNESS C007 [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. We are going to continue -- we

19 are going to continue with your testimony today. Yesterday, I told you

20 now Mr. Jones will start with the cross-examination, but we have found out

21 that there were a couple of questions that the Prosecution would like to

22 ask you, a couple of more questions, additional questions. It will only

23 take a couple of minutes, and then we'll pass on to Mr. Jones for his

24 cross-examination.

25 Mr. Di Fazio.

Page 4586

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

3 Q. Witness C007, following your release from the prison cell and

4 being taken across the lines to your hospital, did you speak to any media

5 about your plight, what had happened to you? And by that, I mean, for

6 example, television or journalists or radio station.

7 A. I think that it was only in the hospital in Zvornik that I gave a

8 statement for Zvornik Radio. If I remember well, I was telling them about

9 my family, who -- which members of my family are still around, and who I

10 am supposed to contact.

11 Q. Can you tell us if, having given the interview or statement to

12 Radio -- to Zvornik Radio, whether that, in fact, was aired over the radio

13 waves? In fact, the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether it was transmitted, whether your interview

15 was transmitted or not.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Transmitted.

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now I can safely look to my right and ask

20 Mr. Jones to start with his cross-examination.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

24 Q. Good morning, sir, Mr. Witness. Now, just so you know, and

25 perhaps to put you at your ease, we're not here to challenge that you

Page 4587

1 received terrible treatment and suffered horribly in 1992 and early 1993,

2 and that you still suffer seriously from that. We just say that it has

3 nothing to do with our client, Naser Oric. Just so that's clear, firstly.

4 And so I'll just be asking you a few questions, and it may be that we'll

5 be done with your testimony in less than two hours or so.

6 Now, first, I'm going to ask you some questions about the distance

7 between Cerska and Srebrenica, just so we can get our bearings. And I

8 don't want you to mention the name of your village. I'm just going to ask

9 you about Cerska.

10 Now, you were shown a map on Wednesday, P482, and if we could

11 place, in fact, my marked-up version on the ELMO. Now, just to explain,

12 I've highlighted some of the places that you mentioned on Wednesday and

13 yesterday, as well as one or two other places that I'm going to ask you

14 about. And I've marked Lijesanj, which you told us you passed through on

15 your way back from Serbia, Rovasi, a village which you passed through when

16 you were arrested, and I've marked Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Kravica,

17 which you passed through on your way to Srebrenica.

18 Now, Srebrenica is not even on that map. Isn't it right that

19 Srebrenica is, in fact, a long way from Cerska, perhaps 40 to 50

20 kilometres, or something like that?

21 A. The distance between Srebrenica and Cerska, I don't know what the

22 distance is. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Stop. Let's go into private session. First

25 of all, redact this part straightaway.

Page 4588

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And let's proceed.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, witness, avoid giving indications on the

13 basis of which those who are watching, are following the transmission,

14 would be in a position to know where you hail from, or where you were

15 living before your arrest.

16 Mr. Jones, my apologies.


18 Q. All right. Just dealing with Cerska, Cerska is in Vlasenica

19 municipality, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And isn't Cerska closer to the town of Vlasenica than to

22 Srebrenica? In fact, we can see Vlasenica on the map.

23 A. Cerska is here, and I can't see Vlasenica marked here. Vlasenica

24 is closer than Srebrenica.

25 Q. That's fine. And isn't Cerska, in fact, also closer to Zvornik

Page 4589

1 than to Srebrenica?

2 A. I don't know about that, about its proximity to Srebrenica or

3 Zvornik. I think it should be closer to Srebrenica.

4 Q. Okay. We can see that, perhaps, on the map later. Kamenica,

5 which you also mentioned on Wednesday when you told us that the other

6 Muslim prisoners were from Kamenica, that's even further away from

7 Srebrenica than Cerska, isn't it? It's actually north, towards Zvornik.

8 Would you agree?

9 A. Yes. It comes under the Zvornik municipality.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you told us yesterday, perhaps it was

11 Wednesday, that you were aware that Kravica fell on the 7th of January,

12 1993. Now, are you aware that, until Kravica fell on the 7th of January,

13 1993, the Muslim-held enclaves of Cerska and Kamenica were physically

14 separated from Srebrenica, in other words, they were enclaves of their

15 own? Is that something you were aware of at the time, or later?

16 A. I was not aware of the events taking part on the ground, which

17 towns came under whose control. I only heard the shooting in Cerska.

18 Now, from which distance the fire came, and other such things, I was not

19 aware of them.

20 Q. All right. The reason I ask is, isn't it that you know that you

21 were transferred to Srebrenica after the 7th of January, 1993, because

22 before then, it wasn't possible for Muslims to pass through Kravica on the

23 road to Srebrenica?

24 A. Indeed, after the 7th of January, I was transferred. I don't know

25 the exact date. I know it was after the 7th of January, because I heard

Page 4590

1 that, on Christmas Day, Kravica had fallen.

2 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, you might not be able to help us with this,

3 but assuming that you had to cover the entire distance from Cerska to

4 Srebrenica on foot, and if you had to avoid the road from Konjevic Polje

5 to Bratunac and go through the woods and hills, do you have any idea how

6 long that trip could take?

7 A. Had I passed the route on foot entirely, is that what you mean?

8 Q. Yes. If you could estimate how long that would have taken.

9 A. I can't tell, because I never even knew where Srebrenica was until

10 I reached it. So I wouldn't know how long it would take for one to make

11 the journey on foot.

12 Q. Would you agree that it could perhaps take several days?

13 A. How should I know? I don't know.

14 Q. Okay, that's fine. Let's look at the actual trip which you did do

15 to get from Cerska to Srebrenica. Firstly, you had to do the journey in

16 several stages, didn't you? Firstly, you travelled by tractor from the

17 stable to a primary school in Cerska.

18 A. No, that's not true.

19 Q. Well, you tell us. How did you get from the stable to the primary

20 school in Cerska? And how long did it take?

21 A. We set off on foot from the stable to the primary school in

22 Cerska. Now, how long did it take? I can't tell you really. How should

23 I know? We set out sometime in the morning, but I can't tell you when it

24 was that we reached the destination.

25 Q. Okay. Now, just sticking with the school, primary school, in

Page 4591

1 Cerska for a minute, when you were there, did you notice that it was full

2 of refugees, of Muslim refugees?

3 A. Yes, there were quite many people there. I can't say how many

4 exactly, but quite many.

5 Q. And on that same subject, were you aware, at the time that you

6 were being moved from the stable to Srebrenica, that there was at the same

7 time a great movement of Muslims, too, who were fleeing the Cerska and

8 Kamenica area and moving towards Srebrenica?

9 A. When I was at the stable in Rovasi, people were passing left and

10 right, as they say, groups or individuals. I'm not sure where they were

11 headed. People were coming and going. I don't know if they were refugees

12 or people from the army. I wasn't able to see.

13 Q. Well, in other words, what I'm asking is, were you aware that, at

14 the same time that you were being moved to Srebrenica, that there was a

15 general evacuation of Muslim people towards Srebrenica and away from

16 Kamenica and Cerska, because those areas were coming under Serb assault?

17 A. As I said, there were people at Cerska once I got there. Whether

18 they were actually on their way somewhere else is not something I can say.

19 I was placed on a cart there and taken to Konjevic Polje. There were

20 people coming and going, but I have no idea where they were headed for.

21 Q. Okay. And how long did the trip by cart from Cerska to Konjevic

22 Polje take, approximately?

23 A. I don't know. I didn't keep track of the time. There was no way

24 for me to keep track. We were being taken on a horse-drawn cart, one or

25 two horses. I can't remember specifically. And they took us to Konjevic

Page 4592

1 Polje. I'm not sure about the time we took to get there. I think about

2 one hour, possibly.

3 Q. Well, generally, and perhaps to cut this short, wasn't it a long

4 journey that you took to get from Cerska to Srebrenica by foot, by cart,

5 by van, and again by foot, a journey which took pretty much all that day,

6 I imagine?

7 A. Well, I think that I reached Potocari on that day. Because I had

8 left Cerska, I lingered for a while in Konjevic Polje where I was

9 questioned, we were placed into a van there and continued on to Kravica.

10 Sometime during the night we reached Srebrenica, but I can't give you the

11 exact time.

12 Q. Right. And you had left the stable in the early morning of that

13 day.

14 A. I think it was early the next day. Again, I can't give you the

15 exact time, but there was already sunlight.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned arriving in Potocari. In fact, the road

17 from Kravica goes on to Bratunac, doesn't it, and then to Potocari and

18 Srebrenica, and but you couldn't take that road because Bratunac was still

19 held by the Serbs; would that be right?

20 A. Probably. I don't know. We didn't take the road, we walked to a

21 place further down from Kravica. I don't know its name.

22 Q. All right. Now, would I be right in understanding that, while you

23 were guarded for the whole of this trip, that it wasn't the same guards

24 who escorted you all the way from the stable to the SUP in Srebrenica? In

25 other words, it wasn't the same escorts from door to door.

Page 4593

1 A. I think the guards changed, the guards who came with us to

2 Konjevic Polje. They probably changed there. But we were escorted. Some

3 people kept coming. I'm not sure where they were on their way to.

4 Q. Well, isn't what happened that you were passed from person to

5 person, and that the instruction, as you were passed along, was something

6 like, "These are Serb prisoners, take them to Srebrenica for exchange."

7 A. Well, I can't say I heard those precise words; therefore, I can't

8 tell you that this is, indeed, something they said.

9 Q. Maybe not those precise words, but something to that effect. You

10 told us that when you were removed from the stable, that they said "we

11 would be on our way to Srebrenica where we were to be exchanged." So was

12 it at least something along those lines that was said that day, that you

13 were being moved to Srebrenica for exchange?

14 A. Well, someone said that we would be taken to Srebrenica for

15 exchange; that certainly was said. That much is true. However, as for

16 them saying that we were Serb prisoners, this is not something I heard,

17 and I'm not in a position to know whether someone actually said this or

18 not.

19 Q. That's fine. Just on that subject still, you told us yesterday,

20 towards the end of the day, that when you were asked -- when you asked why

21 you were being held in Cerska, they said, "Your lot keeps arresting our

22 lot so we have to do the same." Now, did you understand that as a

23 possible reference to exchange; in other words, that because Serbs were

24 taking Muslims prisoner, they were taking you prisoner for exchange?

25 A. That's what I was told by a man at the stable in Cerska. I asked

Page 4594

1 him why I had been arrested, what the reason had been, the motive. And

2 this was the only thing he replied. He said, "Your lot are bringing in

3 our people; therefore, we have to do the same."

4 Q. What I was asking is, did you understand that as a sort of

5 revenge, or was it more for the purposes of exchange that he was saying,

6 "We have to take your lot prisoner so we can exchange your lot for our

7 lot"?

8 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think both these interpretations are

9 possible. I have no idea what their motive was.

10 Q. All right. Now, going back to the beginning for a moment, and

11 apologies if I seem to skip around, I'm going to ask you a question or two

12 about the people who first arrested you.

13 Now, first of all, they weren't all in the same uniform, were

14 they? They were in a mixture of civilian and camouflage clothes.

15 A. Some partially wore uniforms and some didn't. It was a mixture,

16 yes.

17 Q. The reason I ask you is that, you were asked a lot on Wednesday

18 and yesterday, and you spoke about soldiers, and am I right to take it

19 that by that you mean an able-bodied man with a weapon, whether or not

20 he's in full uniform?

21 A. Well, how should I know? If I see a young man coming to arrest

22 me, that tells me he would be up to anything, he would stop at nothing.

23 That was what I gathered. Now, the fact that he may not have been wearing

24 a uniform could also have meant that he was not able to get one. That was

25 how I saw it at the time.

Page 4595

1 Q. Yes, precisely. Basically, what I'm trying to establish is

2 your -- what meaning you give to "soldier". Would it be right to say that

3 for you, a soldier is basically a Muslim fighter, whether or not he

4 belongs to an army?

5 A. How should I know if a person is a member of an army or not? It's

6 not something that I can tell.

7 Q. All right. Now, didn't the people who arrested you say the

8 following to you, or something like it: "Why are the Serbs attacking the

9 Muslims?" Do you recall them saying something like that to you?

10 A. For the most part, they asked me questions in relation to my

11 children, why I had taken them to Serbia and returned myself. I can't

12 really say they asked too many questions about the Serb army and its

13 whereabouts, because we they realised that I was not aware of anything of

14 that.

15 Q. This is -- partly I'm seeking to establish, again, roughly when

16 you were arrested, and you told us at one point that this was in the

17 spring, and possibly April. So my question was really, wasn't it very

18 early in the war, at a time when you didn't know that the war had started

19 and when these Muslims were asking you about the first attacks? Would

20 that be correct?

21 A. I remember that there was shooting in Zvornik. I did hear that.

22 And in Sarajevo, what happened, I heard about that. As for the rest, I

23 know that I wasn't able to go to Zvornik -- to go through Zvornik, when I

24 was taking my women and children away. I passed through a village further

25 down from Lijesce. So that was the area under attack at that time. There

Page 4596

1 was certainly shooting at Zvornik. Now, who was shooting at whom is not

2 something that I can tell you.

3 Q. Yes. It's all in order, really, to fix the date of your capture

4 as much as we can. And you know, don't you, that when you took your wife

5 and children to Serbia, that that was definitely towards the end of April

6 1992.

7 A. What I remember is late April or May, and here it reads June. I

8 really can't judge whether this information is accurate or not. The way I

9 remember it, I reckon late April, possibly May.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. Now, whether my assessment is ...

12 Q. Well, perhaps you could be out by a week or two. But would you

13 agree that you can't be out by a month or so, as to when you were

14 arrested?

15 A. I don't know. I wouldn't agree that June is a likely month. May,

16 I would probably say okay. Maybe it was not necessarily April. But June

17 strikes me as a little too late. But it's very difficult for me to be

18 accurate about this.

19 Q. That's fine. Now, you told us how you were treated roughly by the

20 persons who arrested you. Now, would it be fair to say, and to cut a long

21 story short, that from the time of your capture to your transfer to

22 Srebrenica, you were physically mistreated by all sorts of people, men in

23 uniforms, men in civilian clothes, even by women and children, who threw

24 stones at you?

25 A. When we left that place, after I had been arrested, they did beat

Page 4597

1 me, two or three of them. That certainly happened. And I was threatened

2 en route but I was not harassed. We passed through a number of villages,

3 and there were women and children cursing us, saying things like, "We have

4 no use for this Chetnik here." Now, as for them throwing stones at me, I

5 don't remember that.

6 Q. And didn't the men who were escorting you through this village

7 actually stop the people, the women and children, from abusing you? At

8 least they told them to stop.

9 A. That was when we got there. Two or three of them tried to

10 manhandle me. But they kept these people from approaching me at all.

11 Q. And these were the same people who had -- the people who stopped

12 you -- stopped the people from harassing you, they were the same people

13 who had mistreated you before, who had punched you when they arrested you?

14 A. No. Those were not people that I knew. But those others who had

15 arrested me kept those other people from approaching me and hitting me, or

16 doing anything like that.

17 Q. What I'm driving at is, weren't these both violent and

18 unpredictable times, and that people could be suddenly kind towards you

19 and then the next moment violent and mistreating you?

20 A. It's true that there were sudden changes of mood. I'm not sure

21 what exactly was behind it, but there were these sudden changes.

22 Q. Let me take an example, and I'm looking at your 2000 statement.

23 You don't need to look at it, but I'll read it to you.

24 "I could hear the soldiers talking" - and this is describing your

25 time in the stable. "If there had been a Serb attack, they would say

Page 4598












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4599

1 things like, 'Why should we feed them if they killed this man or that

2 man?' They would name some of their friends that got killed. On those

3 days we didn't get fed. "

4 So do you agree that whether they were kind or not might depend,

5 for example, on whether their friends had been killed in fighting the

6 Serbs?

7 A. That was certainly true. It was based on that that you could

8 tell. For example, when people were killed somewhere, their rage against

9 us would mount and they would become more dangerous. Once they seized a

10 town, or something like that, their behaviour would be quite different.

11 So everything depended on these other events, or at least that was my

12 conclusion.

13 Q. All right, thank you. Now, you mentioned how some civilian

14 Muslims mistreated you, whilst others, like Salko and Muradif, were kind

15 towards you. And you mentioned a man of 60 years old, I think you said,

16 from Skugrici, who beat you badly while you were in the stable. Firstly,

17 was he in civilian clothes?

18 A. I'm not sure about the village you refer to. But I heard the man

19 was from Skugrici. He came and he said that his son had been killed. He

20 would come and beat us. I remember that very well. He was from Skugrici.

21 That was what I heard.

22 Q. Is Skugrici in the Cerska municipality or even the Cerska commune?

23 A. Not Cerska municipality. Skugrici, as far as I know, is also part

24 of Vlasenica municipality. It may be close to Cerska, but I'm not sure

25 about that.

Page 4600

1 Q. You mentioned three Muslim men from Kamenica - Osman, Kasim, and

2 Suljo - who were imprisoned with you. Is it right that they were beaten

3 just as badly as you were?

4 A. Yes, they were beaten as well, just like we were. There were some

5 people who were saying, "These are the Muslim Chetniks, but these are the

6 real ones," pointing at us. That's what some people were saying.

7 Therefore, both groups, them and us, were beaten. I can't tell who was

8 beaten more.

9 Q. And although you mentioned that men were beaten in the stable,

10 it's right, isn't it, that Andja was not beaten at all in the stable.

11 A. Andja was not beaten in the stable. When she came in, she was a

12 little bruised, like I said. But they didn't beat her in the stable, or

13 at least I don't remember.

14 Q. All right. Now, just dealing very briefly with your stay in the

15 stable, because it's not part of the indictment in this case, can you

16 confirm that there was no Mico imprisoned in the stable with you, nobody

17 called Mico?

18 A. Mica? You're talking about the Cerska now, aren't you?

19 Q. Yes, the stable in Cerska.

20 A. No. No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think we need to clear this. You had

22 asked the witness whether there was a Mico. Now, the transcript that I

23 got, or that everyone should have, says Mica. I am saying this so that I

24 get a reaction from the witness. Did you, when trying to answer the

25 question by Mr. Jones, say Mica or Mico? Because the question was very

Page 4601

1 clear, whether there was a Mico, not a Mica.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the stable at Cerska, there was

3 no Mico.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say anything about

6 the nickname. But Mico, as in Mico at Cerska, I don't think either Mico

7 or Mica were there.

8 MR. JONES: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you.

11 Q. Now, was there a stove, even a makeshift stove, in the stable?

12 A. At first, when I arrived, there was nothing. I do seem to

13 remember that one day, someone brought a small stove of sorts. The other

14 man, the one who used to bring us food, Muradif, he brought some sort of a

15 small stove which we kept for a while. And then some people came and

16 said, "Why are you keeping these people warm?" and they threw the stove

17 out and broke it to pieces.

18 Q. And when you cooked -- well, did you cook any food with that

19 stove? And if so, was it normal food that you cooked?

20 A. We didn't cook. There was nothing for us to use. Muradif would

21 sometimes light a fire for us to keep us from freezing, but no cooking.

22 As for the food, they brought it from somewhere. I have no idea where

23 from, actually. Probably from some sort of a mess.

24 Q. This may seem a strange question, but is it right, then, that you

25 never tried to cook or bake the soles of your shoes to have something to

Page 4602

1 eat because you were so desperate to have something to eat in the stable?

2 A. As for cooking or baking the soles of our shoes, no, we never did

3 that. But some guards -- some guards would bring us acorns that grew in

4 the surrounding area, and they would give them to us through the door.

5 But that was all.

6 Q. All right. Now, did you lose a lot of weight from your time in

7 Cerska, in the stable?

8 A. Yes, a lot of weight. I found it very difficult to walk.

9 Q. Can you estimate roughly how many kilogrammes or how much of your

10 body weight you lost during those eight months in the stable?

11 A. I can't really say. I didn't keep track of my weight. I know

12 that I was very weak, and I'd lost a lot of weight.

13 Q. Now, not taking exercise in all that time, is it right, then, that

14 your leg muscles must have wasted away considerably?

15 A. That's correct. We were inside that stable. No exercise

16 whatsoever. That was out of the question.

17 Q. Just to clarify one matter in that regard. You did mention

18 yesterday or the day before how you were taken outside sometimes to warm

19 up. Would that be a daily routine? And if so, how long would that be

20 for?

21 A. Not on a daily basis. A couple of times one of the guards would

22 take us outside. I can't say how many times exactly. He did take us

23 outside to warm by a fire that they would light there, the guards.

24 Q. So would it be fair to say that, at the end of your stay in the

25 stable in Cerska, that you were a pretty terrible sight to behold, if I

Page 4603

1 can put it that way?

2 A. I was emaciated, I was hungry, I was exhausted, I was lice-ridden,

3 fleas, dog lice, that sort of thing. That's how I looked at Cerska.

4 Q. And I take it the same would apply to Jakov Dzokic, Branko

5 Sekulic, and Dragan Ilic, that they were all pretty much in the same

6 state?

7 A. Yes, they were. Branko Sekulic and Dragan Ilic were brought in

8 later, so they spent less time there, whereas Jakov Dzokic and I stayed

9 there longest, that is, Jakov Dzokic spent most time there and then I came

10 next in terms of the duration.

11 Q. And Branko Sekulic, you told us how he had been wounded when he

12 was captured. One question in that regard. Do you ever recall him

13 telling you that he had been wounded on Rogac?

14 A. I don't recall the name of the place where he was wounded. It

15 seems to me that he mentioned the place called Sebiocina. I don't know

16 where that is, that he had been wounded and arrested there. I think

17 that's what he said. I'm not sure because I might have forgotten.

18 Q. And this was a serious wound he had, wasn't it, and that was why

19 he had problems walking, or that he couldn't put weight on that leg.

20 A. Yes, he was wounded in his leg, in the joint, that is, in the

21 ankle. His ankle, having been wounded, he was unable to step on that leg,

22 so he had to, instead, jump on the other one.

23 Q. Would you agree that, by the end of your stay in the stable, that

24 all of you were essentially more dead than alive? Is that a description

25 you'd agree with?

Page 4604

1 A. I don't think I understand what you're saying, "more dead than

2 alive." We were aching all over. It was a hard time for us. And the

3 pain came both from our wounds and injuries. But dead, I don't

4 understand.

5 Q. Let me put it this way: If, when you were taken from the stable

6 and were travelling to Srebrenica, if any of you had died then, would that

7 have come as a surprise to you, seeing the condition that you were all in?

8 A. It would not have surprised anyone had someone died. We were

9 terribly exhausted, and in addition to that, this man Sekulic was wounded

10 and was losing a lot of blood. And, of course, everything was possible.

11 It would not have been a miracle.

12 Q. And when you arrived in Srebrenica, would you say that you still

13 had the marks of being beaten in Cerska, in other words, blood on your

14 face and clothes, bruises, split lips, and all the things that you

15 described yesterday, marks, in other words, which you sustained in Cerska?

16 A. That's true, we were bruised. And the people who were around us

17 were able to see that. That's true. I don't remember now who was covered

18 in blood, who wasn't. But we were black and blue, for sure.

19 Q. All right. Now, if I can just go back to Kravica briefly. You

20 described how you went through Kravica. Had you been to Kravica before

21 the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So could you help us with how you knew that it was Kravica that

24 you were travelling through?

25 A. The people who were with me told me so, namely, Sekulic, Ilic, who

Page 4605

1 knew that the place we were going through was Kravica.

2 Q. Okay. Now, you've accepted that this could have been on the 26th

3 of January, 1993, so 19 days, nearly three weeks, after the fall of

4 Kravica, and you told us how you saw looting. Is it right there was

5 mostly civilians who you saw looting?

6 A. I was far away from where they were, and I couldn't tell whether

7 they had uniforms. I just saw some women among them, who, in my opinion,

8 were civilians, loading, mounting some stuff on the horses there.

9 Therefore, I believe that they were civilians. But seeing how far they

10 were, I can't really confirm that.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you see at that time any houses burning or

12 smouldering, or any signs of property being destroyed or damaged on that

13 day?

14 A. I did not see houses burning. Now, I might have seen them

15 smouldering or actually having been burnt down, but not as they were

16 burning.

17 Q. Did you see people, for example, taking tiles off the roofs of

18 houses, or other building structures from the houses?

19 A. No, I didn't. I only saw that they were loading some stuff on

20 their horses, and that they were pushing some barrels around. But I did

21 not really pay much attention to the houses as we were passing by.

22 Q. So, in summary, would you agree that, nearly three weeks after the

23 fall of Kravica, there seemed to be a lot of looting going on in that

24 area?

25 A. I wouldn't know. How would I know? I don't even know what the

Page 4606

1 date was when we were passing through. I did hear that Kravica had

2 fallen, but how much time earlier, whether it was still possible for the

3 looting to go on as late as that, I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Now, moving on to your arrival in Srebrenica, in

5 Srebrenica, when you were brought to the SUP on the first day, you told us

6 you were beaten by three or four men. They were in civilian clothes,

7 weren't they, in T-shirts and other civilian clothes.

8 A. They did beat us up, yes. We arrived at the Srebrenica police

9 station and suffered from quite a lot of beating.

10 Q. Yes, but my question was, weren't they dressed in T-shirts and

11 civilian clothes?

12 A. They were wearing mixed clothes. Some of them had camouflage

13 shirts, others didn't. But as far as I could guess, these were young

14 people. And I could see that they were not wearing full uniforms.

15 Q. I was just looking at your -- referring to your 2000 statement, to

16 your statement in 2000, to the ICTY investigators and for the record, it's

17 ERN 02030486, page 10:

18 "Four men dressed in T-shirts and civilian clothes came into the

19 room with wooden sticks."

20 So could that be right, that they didn't even have camouflage tops

21 or bottoms on, that they were fully in civilian clothes?

22 A. They didn't come in with sticks. They had some bats, as far as I

23 remember. I can't really say now what they were wearing. It seems to me

24 that they had mixed clothes. And it was very difficult for me, the moment

25 they started beating me, to realise what they had on. But, of course,

Page 4607

1 they had bats in their hands.

2 Q. And as far as you could tell at this point, you were in the

3 civilian police station; is that right?

4 A. How was I supposed to know whether it was the civilian or the

5 military police? I have no idea.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you told us you were transferred to the prison, and

7 how you were mistreated there. And I'm not going to dwell on that in any

8 length. I just have a few questions in that regard.

9 Firstly, didn't there come a time when there was an exchange with

10 the Serbs and dead bodies were returned and one live Muslim, and that

11 Muslim who had been returned to the Serb side told soldiers about how he

12 had been tortured by the Serbs in Bratunac?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Wasn't it after that exchange when there was a particularly bad

15 beating, particularly on one night when a lot of injuries were suffered?

16 A. I do remember that he came and said that he was in a prison in

17 Bratunac, and he said, "You will see to live through the same fate as I

18 did," because he told me that he got quite a good thrashing. I believe

19 that's how he put it.

20 Q. So he appeared to be taking out some sort of vendetta or revenge

21 on you for the treatment that he suffered; is that how you understood it?

22 A. Yes, that's right. The way he was saying it, he probably had some

23 sort of a vendetta in his mind. And besides, he would come and beat us,

24 so there you go.

25 Q. And he was blonde, wasn't he, and one of two blonde persons who

Page 4608

1 beat you the most.

2 A. It was blonde, perhaps a bit darker, not really blonde. The one

3 who was beating me, he had military boots on, and he was the one who beat

4 me quite a lot in the prison. I wouldn't be able to tell you his name or

5 surname.

6 Q. But apart from the boots, he was in civilian clothes, wasn't he?

7 A. Yes, yes, I believe he was in civilian clothes. But I do recall

8 the military boots he had on.

9 Q. And was there another blonde person in civilian clothes, a person

10 with light blonde hair, who also beat you a great deal?

11 A. Yes. He used to come as well. But he seemed to be beating others

12 more than me, perhaps, because he knew the others. As far as I could see,

13 the other one was focused on me and kept beating me, whereas others would

14 beat the others, as far as I could notice.

15 Q. Right. And so the worst beating which you received was from this

16 particular blonde-haired person who had been exchanged from Bratunac; is

17 that right?

18 A. The person exchanged from Bratunac would come to beat us, but I

19 never saw him again. Whereas the other man who was beating me up

20 constantly, was a local, because he seemed to be present there all the

21 time. Whether he was a guard there or not, I don't know. But I know that

22 he would come more frequently, whereas the person from Bratunac came, I

23 remember this one occasion when he came in the company of other people and

24 then beat us. But I can't recall whether he came one other time.

25 Q. Didn't some of the guards treat you well, and even, on occasion,

Page 4609

1 try to stop people coming from outside the prison and beating you?

2 A. I don't recall any such thing in Srebrenica, although that was the

3 case in Cerska; there were some people who wouldn't allow others to beat

4 us. But I don't remember that in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Now, you were asked about whether anyone visited your cell, and

6 you visited to Zulfo Tursunovic, but you also told us that you didn't know

7 him before the war. So is it right that you were basing that on what

8 others told you, that it was Zulfo Tursunovic?

9 A. Yes, he did come. And I was told that this man was Zulfo

10 Tursunovic, although I didn't know the man. The people who were there

11 with me said that this was his name, probably because they had known him

12 from before, unlike me.

13 Q. All right. But during your stay in prison, was it just on one

14 occasion that you saw this person who was being referred to as Zulfo?

15 A. Yes, it's my recollection I saw him once.

16 Q. Do you recall whether he actually entered your cell or whether he

17 remained at the threshold, looking in?

18 A. I remember seeing him. I don't remember whether he actually

19 entered the room. And he told us that we were going to be exchanged, that

20 we had nothing to worry about; that bit I do remember.

21 Q. And do you recall whether this was during the day or at night?

22 A. I believe it was during the day, because at night I would not have

23 been able to see him. There was no light.

24 Q. All right. And was it shortly after he came to your cell that you

25 were either taken for exchange or taken to the hospital?

Page 4610

1 A. I can't say how much time elapsed, whether he had come to visit us

2 before my departure for the hospital or after I was released from the

3 hospital. I only know that he was there.

4 Q. All right. So could it be, and perhaps you can't help us with

5 this, but could it be that shortly after he saw you, maybe even a day or

6 so afterwards, that you were taken to the hospital?

7 A. As I've said, I can't remember if it happened before or

8 afterwards. I know that I was in the hospital, but I can't tell you

9 whether it was before or after his visit.

10 Q. All right, that's fine. Now, you've told us that you don't --

11 that the name Ilija Ivanovic doesn't mean anything to you, nor the name

12 Ratko Nikolic.

13 A. No, they don't.

14 Q. Now, you spent, I think it's right to say, well, a considerable

15 period of time in the cell, in the prison in Srebrenica. Is it possible

16 that those people were, in fact, never in the cell with you at all --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, if he doesn't know

18 the names of these particular people, how can he say if they were or

19 weren't there? It just doesn't follow. It can't -- it's taking a big --

20 the leap is too great for this man to make.

21 MR. JONES: I consider it differently. It was perhaps awkwardly

22 put.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained. It can only be sustained.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, let me rephrase it.

25 Q. Witness, would you agree that you knew the names or a name for all

Page 4611

1 the people you were in the cell with? You knew all the men and you knew

2 their names.

3 A. How was I supposed to know all the men? I couldn't have known

4 them all. I told you that I didn't know the people. I only told you the

5 names of the ones that I knew.

6 Q. But when you were in the cell, looking around at the other people

7 who were staying there with you, were there any of them who you didn't

8 have at least a name for, even a nickname or knew something about them,

9 where they were from? In other words, was there anyone in your cell with

10 you who you knew nothing about at all?

11 A. The nicknames of those in the cell, well, I heard just one name,

12 whether it was a nickname or a first name, namely, Kosta, and then Mico.

13 I don't know whether these were nicknames or names, but that's what I

14 heard when I came.

15 Q. Let me approach it in a different way. You were all together in a

16 cell, 24 hours a day, for a considerable period of time. Didn't you,

17 during that time, introduce yourselves to everybody else who was there, so

18 that at one point or other you were introduced to everyone and everyone

19 was introduced to you?

20 A. Far from it. How would we have been able to introduce ourselves

21 to others, seeing the state we were in? The ones that we knew, we knew

22 them. As for the rest, we did not really pay any attention to that. We

23 did talk a bit. And then if you remembered somebody's name or where he

24 was from, that was it. Nobody inquired any further than that. And I told

25 you what I remember.

Page 4612

1 MR. JONES: I wonder if I might take the break now. It's slightly

2 early, but I'm moving on to a different topic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't make a difference, Mr. Jones. I've

4 always told you, choose the best time, both you the Prosecution, when you

5 require the break.

6 So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you have?

10 MR. JONES: I think approximately half an hour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will be all right for you to sit here for

12 another half hour, and then we will finish, or do you prefer to have some

13 more time now, a break? What do you prefer?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can go on for another 30 minutes.

15 I am suffering some stomach trouble, but I think I can hold out.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If there is a problem at any time,

17 please draw our attention straightaway, and we will stop and give you as

18 much time as you like, as you require. Thank you.

19 Yes, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you. And I may be even less than half an

21 hour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I mentioned that because it was mentioned to me, and

23 that's my duty as Presiding Judge, and also the duty of the other two

24 Judges, to make sure that we do not cause any undue --

25 MR. JONES: Absolutely, we appreciate that.

Page 4613

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and I know that I can count on you almost with my

2 eyes closed.

3 MR. JONES: Thank you. I'm obliged, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, I'm just going to ask you now a few questions about your

5 stay in the hospital, a couple questions about your release, and then some

6 questions on the documents you were shown yesterday.

7 Now, for the hospital, you've told us that you can't remember how

8 long you stayed in the hospital, and that's fair enough. But isn't your

9 best recollection is that it was a few days at the most? And before you

10 answer, I'll just read back to what you said yesterday. You said: "One,

11 two, or three days, that was how long I stayed at the hospital."

12 So isn't it right that that was your best recollection, that it

13 was, at most, a few days.

14 A. I really don't know. I can't say with certainty. I know that I

15 was there, but I can't say for how many days. Two, three, four, five,

16 six, I just don't know.

17 Q. Right. But doesn't 12 days, which was the amount of time which

18 was on the document which you were shown yesterday, from the 19th of

19 February to the 3rd of March, isn't it right that that seems much longer

20 to you than the actual time you spent in the hospital?

21 A. Well, I wasn't able to know exactly. Anything is possible. My

22 only conclusion is I can't tell you exactly how long I was there for.

23 That's all I can say.

24 Q. That's fine. Now, you mentioned a man from Zenica yesterday. Do

25 you recall him being in the hospital with you?

Page 4614

1 A. I think he was there too. I'm not sure whether he was with me,

2 but I think he was taken to the hospital as well.

3 Q. Do you recall him, at the hospital, asking you and other prisoners

4 for your names and then writing down your names and other details on a

5 piece of paper?

6 A. I don't know, really.

7 Q. Okay. Now, moving to your release, I'm going to read a couple of

8 paragraphs from your statement, your 2000 statement, to ICTY investigators

9 about your release.

10 MR. JONES: And in fact, I need to ask to go into private session

11 for reasons which will be apparent.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Registrar, could we go into private session,

13 please.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4615











11 Pages 4615-4636 redacted. Private session.















Page 4637

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. Just for the record,

15 while we were in private session, the Defence finished its

16 cross-examination and we remained in private session precisely because

17 that was required. Now we have reached the re-examination stage, and we

18 have reverted to open session.

19 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.


21 Q. Thank you. I understand that you had no good information about

22 the man Mico. You didn't know his full name, and you didn't know where he

23 was from. All I'm asking is, did you -- this may or may not have

24 happened. Did you impart, did you tell the Serb authorities whatever it

25 was that you knew about Mico and Kosta and the other people who were in

Page 4638

1 custody with you, even though you may not have known very much about them?

2 That's all I want to know. Were you ever questioned about it?

3 A. When I arrived at the Zvornik Hospital, I said that Jakov Dzokic

4 and the man from Zenica stayed on in the prison, but I didn't tell them

5 anything about the two men. I did tell them that there were other

6 prisoners, but I didn't tell them who they were or where they were from.

7 Q. Now, who did you tell, who did you inform on the Serb side that

8 Jakov Dzokic was still -- was still alive in the prison?

9 A. First, there was his father, Jakov Dzokic's father, who came to

10 visit me at the hospital and inquired after him. So I told him what I

11 knew. As for Branko Sekulic, I can't remember whether there was somebody

12 from his family there inquiring after him. And the same goes for Dragan

13 Ilic. That's as concerns the three of them. And nobody asked me for the

14 others.

15 Q. All right, thanks. And apart from telling Jakov's father about

16 the fact that he was in prison and still alive, did you tell officialdom -

17 for example, any officials, army men, journalists, police officers, anyone

18 like that, anyone not part of Jakov's family - did you tell them about

19 Jakov's remaining alive back in Srebrenica?

20 A. I think I told so to the hospital staff and to a police officer,

21 though I'm not really sure. I think I did tell them that.

22 Q. Okay. You were also asked about the arrival of the man you

23 believed to be Zulfo Tursunovic, and Mr. Jones asked you questions to the

24 effect of whether or not it could have been before or after your hospital

25 visit and you gave your answers. Whether it was before or after, and in

Page 4639

1 particular if it was before, can you tell the Trial Chamber this, just

2 listen: Had a substantial period of time elapsed between your arrival and

3 the appearance of Tursunovic? By that I mean at least -- at least a week

4 or a week and a half, when you saw him, even if you can't tell exactly

5 when it was.

6 A. Well, I really can't remember whether I came to the hospital first

7 and then returned, or whether that was later. I really can't recall that,

8 and I can't tell you. I know that he did come; I know that he was there.

9 The only thing I can say is that this may have occurred before I ever came

10 to the hospital. But I can't be certain about it.

11 Q. Fine. Just one last question. Did any of the men in custody with

12 you in Srebrenica ever say they were from Sase, or rather, lived in Sase?

13 A. I don't know. I really don't recall that.

14 Q. Okay, thank you very much.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 Yes, Judge Brydensholt has got one question for you.


18 JUDGE AGIUS: Or a couple of questions.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Witness, before you left for Serbia with your

21 wife and children, you hid your hunting rifle outside your house. Do you

22 remember, why did you do that?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Could the witness please

24 repeat the answer. The interpreters didn't get the first portion of the

25 answer.

Page 4640

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can you start your answer again,

2 please, because we had a technical problem.

3 A. When I left for Serbia, I hid my rifle to stop anyone from finding

4 it. It was a hunting rifle that I had from before the war. I simply put

5 it away somewhere, and that is precisely what was later found.

6 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you left the stable in the morning, I

7 understand that you were walking; isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, we walked slowly. We were extremely weak, but we had to walk

9 on. We had no choice.

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you later on, in Srebrenica, were moved

11 from the police station to the prison, do you remember if you were walking

12 or brought there in other ways?

13 A. I'm not sure about that particular bit. I'm really not sure.

14 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And when you went to the hospital in

15 Srebrenica, do you remember if you were able to walk there or if you were

16 brought there somehow else?

17 A. I don't remember that either. If they -- how they took us there,

18 whether it was in a vehicle or in a different way, I don't recall that.

19 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you were beaten, beaten up, in the police

20 station or in the prison, did that always happen in the cell where you

21 were placed, or did it happen that somebody took you out of the cell and

22 beat you up in another room or a corridor or anywhere else?

23 A. Yes. I recall this once, maybe it was on a number of different

24 occasions, but I remember this once, they took us to this room down the

25 corridor. There was a man who was using matches to set our beards on

Page 4641

1 fire, and there was another man there who hit us. I'm afraid I can't

2 describe him for you now.

3 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Do you remember who it was whose beard was set

4 on fire?

5 A. It was me; I was the one.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

8 Judge Eser?

9 JUDGE ESER: I also have a few additional questions.

10 First, with regard to the capture, did you have the impression

11 that you have been captured, more or less, accidentally because you

12 happened to cross the way of these people, or did you have the impression

13 that they were searching for you personally?

14 A. It wasn't by accident. There was a neighbour of mine nearby who

15 told them where I was, that I had come back. I'm not sure if he was with

16 them or not, I don't recall that. But I know that he had called them to

17 tell them that I was there.

18 JUDGE ESER: And did you have the impression that they were

19 capturing you because they were looking for weapons or because they

20 thought you are an enemy who should be taken into detention?

21 A. I'll try to put it in this way: I think that's exactly how it

22 was, because I was in a place that was not near any place with Serb

23 population. They probably knew that I was there and were out to arrest

24 me. But they also spoke about a weapon, a weapon I never had. I never

25 said that I had a weapon. I said I didn't, that's what I told them,

Page 4642

1 because in fact, I never owned a weapon, with the exception of my hunting

2 rifle.

3 JUDGE ESER: Now, you use the term "arrest," "I have been

4 arrested," at least in the English translation, it's always been spoken of

5 arrest. Now, "arrest" has some sort of a legal meaning. Now, did you

6 have the impression that they captured you by making the impression that

7 they have some authority to capture you.

8 A. Well, it's difficult for me to say, you see. They probably had

9 some authority. They were probably sent to do just that, arrest, capture.

10 I'm not sure I can distinguish between these two, whether it's the same

11 thing or not. But this is what happened to me. It made no difference

12 whether I was arrested or captured. I'm not sure if there's any fine

13 distinction to be drawn there, but I'm just telling you what happened.

14 JUDGE ESER: Now I have a question with regard to your detention

15 in the stable, with regard to the woman. I don't want to tell the name.

16 You told us that this woman was not beaten in the stable, but when she

17 returned, she was a little bruised. Now, does this mean that you had the

18 impression she had been beaten outside the stable, or perhaps maltreated

19 in another way?

20 A. She was bruised a little, yes. She had been brought over from

21 Zvornik. She had stayed there for several days with a man. That's what

22 she told me. She had a black eye, that's one thing that I saw when she

23 arrived. But they didn't beat us when she was with us only. She was

24 taken outside several times by the guard, and I'm not sure if she was

25 beaten when she was outside or not. But I didn't hear her moan or scream

Page 4643

1 or anything like that; therefore, I can't say. My apologies.

2 MR. JONES: Just for the record, his evidence wasn't that when she

3 was returned to the stable that she was bruised; it was when she first

4 arrived. And I think that's clear from the answer that's just been given.

5 But I just wanted on the -- on the transcript for that to be clear, that

6 the witness never said that she was returned.

7 JUDGE ESER: No, I heard it here, I got it from the transcript

8 that she would say she was not beaten in the stable, but when she

9 returned, she was a little bruised. That's what I have in my record.

10 MR. JONES: If you could refer -- if Your Honour could refer me to

11 the page number.

12 JUDGE ESER: I'm sorry, I didn't note it. I don't have it with

13 me. I wrote it down.

14 MR. JONES: The witness can be asked to clarify, but I understood

15 his evidence to be that it was only when she first arrived that she had

16 those --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: My correction is that both Your Honour is correct

18 and Mr. Jones is correct.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think they are both correct, because what I doubt

20 is whether it was -- I think it was the stable all the time, yes, I think

21 it was the stable all the time.

22 JUDGE ESER: So just to make this point clear, you told us now

23 that she had bruises when she arrived from Zvornik. Now, my question is,

24 did you realise that she had additional bruises when she was taken out of

25 the stable, that her state of face or body was different when she

Page 4644

1 returned.

2 A. Well, I can't say she had any additional bruises when she was

3 taken outside. I know that when she came back in, she was crying. Now,

4 I'm not sure if there was anything that had been happening to her while

5 she was outside. I didn't see the bruises, because she was taken outside

6 at night. It was impossible to see anything clearly because there was no

7 light. Therefore, whenever she came back she was crying or sobbing, but

8 there was nothing else that I could see.

9 JUDGE ESER: Now, you had told us that, while you were in the

10 stable, you had asked for reasons why you are kept, and that you did not

11 really get an answer. Now, how was it in Srebrenica, while you were kept

12 there? Did you at that occasion also ask why you are still kept?

13 A. No, not in Srebrenica. I wasn't strong enough to even utter a

14 word. I never asked anyone, nor was I ever told, why I had been captured.

15 JUDGE ESER: And when you have been beaten in Srebrenica, was it

16 done silently? Did these men come in and beat you, or could you recognise

17 somehow whether they talked to each other, certain things, or could you

18 realise for what reasons they may do this?

19 A. Whenever they came in, the words I heard were usually "I know that

20 man, I'm going to be the one to beat him," or "Pass me that other man, I

21 will beat him." That's for those people who were there. As for the rest,

22 whether they were actually using swear words and cursing is not something

23 that I can say. I know it did occur earlier, and I used to remember more

24 clearly. But now it's very difficult.

25 JUDGE ESER: So is that -- do I understand you correctly that the

Page 4645

1 beating was not done in order to get out of you certain answers, that they

2 wanted to force you to give certain information to them?

3 A. No, no, no.

4 JUDGE ESER: Okay, thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

6 I have only one question for you, witness. When the United

7 Nations, the UNPROFOR, the gentlemen when the blue caps, arrived, and the

8 first thing they did was ask for you first, mention your name, did you

9 ever ask them why they came looking for you, first and foremost, before

10 anyone else? Or did you ever come to know why they selected you and came

11 looking precisely for you before anyone else?

12 A. I really don't know. I can't say what the reason was. Why? What

13 for? I have no idea. I have no idea where I was being taken to. They

14 just said that they would take me along, the blue helmets. I realised

15 that they were the blue helmets, but I had no idea where they would take

16 me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, I thank you. That basically means

18 that we have finished with your testimony. I'm sorry that we kept you

19 here longer than the half an hour that I promised you in the beginning,

20 after the last break, but probably we did the right thing. I hope you're

21 not feeling much worse because of that.

22 Very soon you will be escorted out by Madam Usher, and then you

23 will receive all the assistance you require to enable you to return back

24 home as soon as possible. Before you leave this courtroom, however, I

25 have two things to tell you: One is that, on behalf of the Tribunal and

Page 4646

1 on behalf of myself, also on behalf of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser, I

2 would like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this

3 case which the Prosecution has instituted against Naser Oric. The second

4 and final thing I want to tell you is that, on behalf of everyone here, I

5 wish you a safe journey back home.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

7 so much for everything.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've tried to be brief. I'm not

10 sure about the clarity of my testimony and my articulation. My health is

11 not perfect, as you can see, and I would like to apologise if, on

12 occasions, I have not been sufficiently clear.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have been extremely clear, witness, sir, I can

14 assure you of that. I thank you. You will now be escorted out of the

15 courtroom. Thank you.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I understand, Mr. Jones, that you require some

18 time to object to some documents?

19 MR. JONES: Well, not particularly. It's becoming a slightly

20 tricky exercise, objections to documents, because on the one hand we're

21 tendering documents where we're challenging the authenticity and likewise

22 for the Prosecution. It may be that we've reached the stage where all of

23 our objection also be understood in the context of our general objections

24 to authenticity of the Sokolac collection, and what not, so that if I

25 don't stand up and object every time a document is produced, but our

Page 4647

1 objections are already noted, then I trust that will be sufficient.

2 For example, P15 we'd objected to on grounds of authenticity, and

3 I assume that if we've objected once, with Ms. Manas, for example, during

4 the course of her testimony, that we don't need to stand up and object

5 each time the document is used.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, of course not.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted) at the same time it

10 would be rather strange for us to object to the first page of our own

11 exhibit. So I trust our objections as to authenticity are noted and clear

12 from the context. So I just wanted to make that point.

13 May I also raise another matter?


15 MR. JONES: It's simply that for Monday's witness, we would -- and

16 he's not protected so I can mention his name, but it was the photographer,

17 that in order to be able effectively to cross-examine him, we actually

18 need the physical exhibits which are going to be used during his testimony

19 rather than receiving them during the course of examination in chief and

20 then having to react. So that's simply to communicate that to the

21 Prosecution, that we really need that before he testifies. We'd been in

22 discussions about perhaps agreeing his evidence. That hasn't happened.

23 So if he is to testify orally, we need to see the exhibits before --

24 receive the exhibits beforehand.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Again, with regard to next Monday's

Page 4648

1 witness, being a photographer, a procedure which I'm very familiar with in

2 my own country, obviously, I don't know what the intentions of the

3 Prosecution -- what the intentions of the Prosecution are. And I also --

4 and I also don't know what kind of cross-examination you have in mind. I

5 don't know. But that very much depends on what will come up on Monday, as

6 I understand it to be, then I will discuss it with my two colleagues. But

7 we are not excluding the possibility that we could take over, if it's just

8 presentation of documents, I don't see why we should waste more than --

9 more time than necessary. But anyway, I'm sure that we'll be -- the whole

10 idea is to help you out rather than to take over.

11 MR. JONES: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. I don't know what the Prosecution has in

13 mind, obviously, as much as you do.

14 MR. JONES: Indeed, indeed, it's -- in fact, it's very much in

15 that spirit, Your Honour, in that if a photographer is to come here and

16 say, "I took certain photographs on a certain date," there's almost

17 nothing which we would want to ask him about. And that's why, if there

18 are physical exhibits to be presented, then we would need to look at those

19 beforehand to see if any questions arise from that. But we're in favour

20 of a practical approach.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you ought to discuss it a little bit amongst

22 you, and then we'll see.

23 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Point well taken by Defence

25 counsel. We will communicate to Madam Vidovic about this request.

Page 4649

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

2 The other thing I wanted to tell you is this: That on Monday,

3 when we get this witness coming over, we just have two sessions, the first

4 and the second, and at 12.30 we will finish with his testimony in any

5 case, because then I have an initial appearance of the latest arrival,

6 so -- and it will be also in this courtroom, so we'll have to stop at

7 12.30 so that they will have -- the technicians and the staff, will have

8 enough time to prepare the courtroom for the initial appearance, all

9 right? So in any case the Monday witness, maximum of two sessions.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm hopeful that it will be uncontroversial

11 evidence for the most part.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine it to be so, but I do not want to

13 close doors on either you or on the Defence, obviously.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly right. All I wanted to say, I'm not

15 handling the photographer, so I don't know the ins and outs of the

16 testimony. But I understand the essence of it will be, "I took these

17 photos on such and such a date." And the only controversial issue that

18 might arise will be if there's testimony elicited from him as to what it

19 shows. Of course there's going to be damage. But I don't think -- well,

20 I'll reserve my position. But it's the further step that might then be

21 taken as to how that damage was caused that would be obviously of concern

22 to the Defence, and I can't speak about that. But I'll certainly raise

23 that controversy with my colleagues, and if there is to be any

24 controversial issue such as that, I'll make sure that the Defence are

25 notified so that they're prepared for that and we can minimise that sort

Page 4650

1 of controversy.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you all. The witness has to come from

3 outside the country, no? Yes, all right. I thank you, and have a nice

4 weekend.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.25 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

7 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.