1 Monday, 21 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9:45 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will wait -- before the witness, are there any

8 preliminaries?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Will there be any preliminaries or not?

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, one.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then, please, the witness waits outside.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Never miss a thing. It's Monday morning. Yes,

15 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. The case number

17 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can

19 you follow the proceedings in your own language?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

21 can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. You may sit down.

23 Appearances for the Prosecution.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

25 counsel for the Prosecution, and also good morning to the Defence. I am

1 here together with co-counsel, Miss Patricia Sellers and our case manager,

2 Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, and good morning to you and to

4 your team. Appearances for the Defence.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

6 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones, I appear as Defence

7 counsel for Mr. Naser Oric. With us here we have our legal assistant,

8 Adisa Mehic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good morning to my

9 colleagues of the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Preliminaries?

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. We end up with new developments

12 last week with a view to the time needed for the witness Bogilovic and

13 that is why we decided and planned to reschedule the coming witness,

14 Brkic, for a later moment in time and --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Coming witness -- one moment. I'm sorry to

16 interrupt you, but the coming witness does not enjoy any protective

17 measures, does he?

18 MR. WUBBEN: So far not.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you mentioned the name.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, thank you, very thoughtful of you, but I checked

21 before I mentioned the name.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But don't blame me for checking because it is my

23 responsibility to make sure that all protective measures are observed and

24 respected at all times. Yes, sorry about the interruption, Mr. Wubben.

25 Please go ahead.

1 MR. WUBBEN: This means for the coming days we can fill it up with

2 the time needed for this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Any preliminary issues?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one. A small

5 matter. We have a request to make. You know that I had some health

6 problems and I still --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, it's not necessary.

9 I still feel pain which is becoming more intensive when I have to stand

10 for long periods of time. So I would like to ask the Trial Chamber if I

11 might be allowed to examine the witness in a sitting position and as soon

12 as I am able to examine the witnesses standing up, I shall tell you and do

13 so. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If you call that a problem, Madam Vidovic, I hope

15 that all problems will be that easy to solve. What I suggest to you, I --

16 of course, it's up to you whether you prefer to stay sitting where you

17 are, or whether you would like to exchange places with Mr. Jones. It's up

18 to you. Whichever you prefer.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anything else? Usher, please do escort the

21 witness into the courtroom.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 WITNESS: BECIR BOGILOVIC [Resumed]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Bogilovic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Two things. First, I want to make sure that

2 throughout the testimony, throughout the sitting, you are receiving

3 interpretation in your language at all times. If at any moment there are

4 problems, please draw our attention immediately.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And secondly, you will notice that I am not asking

7 you to stand up and repeat the solemn declaration, which you made last

8 Friday. That solemn declaration still holds and of course still holds for

9 today, for tomorrow or until you are here giving testimony. But you don't

10 need to repeat it, because making it once is enough.

11 Ms. Sellers will now proceed with her examination-in-chief.

12 MS. SELLERS: Good morning Your Honours, learned counsel.

13 Examined by Ms. Sellers: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bogilovic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 MS. SELLERS: I would ask if Mr. Bogilovic might be given

17 Prosecution Exhibit 254. I believe that is how we concluded our session

18 on Friday. Mr. Bogilovic will be given the original and I believe the

19 rest of us already have copies.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic -- thank you. Would you please look at the

21 document. I believe you testified last week that this order was on order

22 that you issued together with the president of the War Presidency,

23 Mr. Avdic. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. I would like to ask you the following question about the document.

1 Who was the order directed to?

2 A. This order came from us, and it says "We order --" We hereby

3 order. The president of the War Presidency and myself as head of the

4 public security service order the police to take in all illegal weapons

5 and anything else, to confiscate them, if -- unless citizens do so

6 themselves, and if they turn them in themselves at the nearest police

7 station.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- [Microphone not activated]?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So he hasn't answered your question.

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a correct statement that this order was

13 directed both to the ordinary citizen and as well as to the police,

14 military or civilian?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

17 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour I did want to

18 ask that it was directed to the ordinary citizens.

19 Q. And was this a direct order -- looking at the body of this

20 document, was this a direct order to the civilian and military police or a

21 direct order to the civilians? Or anyone in possession of a firearm?

22 A. We issued the order. It was a direct order that was sent directly

23 to anybody in possession of firearms illegally.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. SELLERS: The document may be removed right now. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Witness, just a very short question. The order

2 only speaks of anyone in possession of a firearm, ammunition, explosive

3 and so on, whereas in your oral statement now, you would speak of illegal

4 weapons. That's line five, two, "illegal weapons." Again, you repeated

5 "illegal."

6 Now, the order, the written order seems to be broader, asking for

7 delivering any firearm, whereas in your oral statement you speak of

8 "illegal weapons." And if only illegal weapons, what type of weapons did

9 you in your order think of?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It means unlawfully. Anybody who

11 did not have a permit to possess or carry a firearm, then they would have

12 to give up those weapons, anybody unlawfully in possession of. Without

13 permits.

14 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

15 Yes. Might I ask now -- I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I just -- I said thank you, Judge Eser.

17 MS. SELLERS: Might I ask now that the document be withdrawn from

18 the witness and that the witness be given P5, please. And that, I'm

19 sorry, we don't have the original. Could we please have that from the

20 registrar.

21 Your Honour, I would also like to thank the Defence. We informed

22 them earlier today there were three documents that we were going to be

23 using that weren't originally on the list and they, very graciously, are

24 not raising an objection to that. I would like the Court to be informed

25 of that.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers, and I thank you, Madam

2 Vidovic as well. Thank you.

3 MS. SELLERS:

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, please read this document in front of you now.

5 Would you confirm to the Trial Chamber that this document was issued on

6 the 29th of October, 1992 and, therefore, after the order that you signed

7 that we have just discussed.

8 A. This order, and the number is 9 -- I've seen this for the first

9 time, 01239512, this place is 50 kilometers from Srebrenica. This is more

10 a military document rather than coming under my competence.

11 Q. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, would you also agree that this document - in

12 particular I want to draw your attention to the first paragraph - that the

13 first paragraph of this document makes reference to the order that you

14 signed and issued on the 14th of October, in that it is pursuant to order

15 91/92 of the War Presidency.

16 A. Yes. But this order refers exclusively to the military police.

17 Q. And do you agree that it is in this order that the military police

18 are hereby ordered to carry out an investigation in relationship to the

19 confiscation of weapons?

20 A. Yes. That's right. And most probably this followed on because

21 the military police -- this place is quite a long way away and at one of

22 the meetings it was decided that two policemen should be assigned and

23 attached to the units in the field, on the ground.

24 Q. And you also agree that within this order that we are referring to

25 the legal possession of weapons?

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. So this order actually is the implementation of the earlier order

3 that the War Presidency has set forth; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Because one couldn't control everything on the ground and

5 individuals abused the situation and then, what they wanted to do was to

6 cover the area on the ground, to introduce law and order there, on the

7 spot.

8 Q. You would also agree that the military police were thereby ordered

9 not only to implement the order to have an investigation, but they were

10 ordered to carry it out in the different regions within the Srebrenica

11 municipality?

12 A. Yes, this referred to the entire region.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you also confirm that the person whose name

14 appears on the bottom right-hand side of that order is that of Naser Oric?

15 A. As far as confirming that, it's the same as what I said earlier

16 on.

17 Q. I'm only asking you at this point to confirm that is a name at the

18 bottom of it. I'm not speaking at this point about the signature.

19 A. Well, the name is written down here, and it says "Oric." It's

20 typewritten and then there is a signature in Cyrillic. Now, who signed

21 it, I really can't say. It wasn't signed in front of me for me to be able

22 to know.

23 Q. So is it your understanding that the person's name, the person

24 whoever signed that, did that in their capacity as a commander of the

25 Srebrenica OS?

1 A. This order was -- or rather normally emanated from suspicions that

2 individuals had -- were unlawfully in possession of weapons and I assume

3 that this is why the order was given in the first place.

4 Q. Yes. And Mr. Bogilovic, would you just confirm - yes or no - that

5 the person whoever signed the order did so in their capacity as commander

6 of the Srebrenica OS?

7 MR. JONES: Sorry, I would object to that question. This witness

8 has said this is the first time that he has seen this document. He hasn't

9 seen this document before. He can only confirm, therefore, what is

10 written, that it appears to have been issued on a certain date, et cetera,

11 and so we can all see a name and a function there. As to whether he can

12 say that it was signed in a particular function, that's beyond what this

13 witness can testify to, in my submission.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Agreed, Mr. Jones, and your objection is

15 sustained. I mean, it's --

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The document speaks for itself. So let's move to

18 next the question.

19 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. Could we please remove the document from

20 Mr. Bogilovic.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you testified last Friday that, to your knowledge,

22 Mr. Halilovic was appointed to be the commander of the military police.

23 Can you please confirm that for us again.

24 A. Yes, I can confirm that again. On the 1st of July, 1992, at the

25 proposal of Zulfo Tursunovic [Realtime transcript read in error "Osman

1 Osmanovic"] he was appointed commander of the military police.

2 Q. Now, in June of 1992, did you ever attend any of the Srebrenica

3 staff meetings where military issues were discussed?

4 A. In June I think there was one meeting.

5 Q. And did you ever --

6 A. And it was to link up the villages so that in case of an attack,

7 that the nearest villages had the duty of raising a defence.

8 Q. And were you present at a meeting in June of 19 --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a small

11 correction. The witness said that on the 1st of July, at the proposal of

12 Zulfo Tursunovic was the name that the witness said when Halilovic was

13 appointed commander of the military police, and the transcript says Osman

14 Osmanovic. So it is a different name. It is Tursunovic. Could that be

15 corrected, please.

16 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, could you please direct your attention, again, to

18 July 1st and you were speaking about the appointment of Mr. Halilovic as

19 commander of the military police. Who, in your opinion, appointed him?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it Osman Osmanovic or Zulfo Tursunovic?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Not Osman Osmanovic. He wasn't

22 there at all, as far as I remember. It was Zulfo Tursunovic who proposed

23 Mirzet, or Mr. Halilovic, as commander of the military police on the 1st

24 of July, 1992.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, for bringing that --

1 raising that matter, because it's important. Yes.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, were you present in the month of June,

4 1992 at any of the meetings of the Srebrenica staff to discuss the

5 appointment of Mirzet Halilovic as commander of military police?

6 A. As far as June, certainly not. Never. No.

7 MS. SELLERS: I would like the witness to be shown document P4,

8 please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

10 MS. SELLERS: The witness will be given the original and I believe

11 the rest of us will have the other documents.

12 JUDGE ESER: Just a short question. First, the witness has been

13 asked whether he was present and then who appointed Halilovic. And then

14 you would say Zulfo Tursunovic suggested or proposed. There is a

15 distinction between proposing and appointing. What was Zulfo Tursunovic

16 doing; only proposing or appointing this person?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was proposing him, and we agreed

18 that he should be commander of the military police. So we accepted that

19 proposal.

20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Might I ask the witness be shown

21 document P4.

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at the document before you.

23 Mr. Bogilovic, do you agree, looking at the first sentence above where

24 "order" is written, that at this time, on the 15th of June, 1992, that

25 there was a commander of the Srebrenica staff, to your knowledge?

1 A. Here the commander was -- or rather this is a document of the 20th

2 of May when it was first established, and then it was expanded, normally,

3 to include Kragljivoda, Skenderovici, and Osmace.

4 Q. And do you agree that on the 15th of June, that there was a

5 commander of the Srebrenica staff?

6 A. The commander of the Srebrenica staff did exist, yes. He wasn't

7 in Srebrenica because all of these were in their villages, in their own

8 localities where they lived and worked.

9 Q. Now, would you look at the part of the document that comes under

10 section 1, "order" and can you just confirm that this document represents

11 what your understanding was as of the 15th of June, that the Srebrenica

12 staff was organised by Naser Oric, that Zulfo Tursunovic was part of it,

13 and that also Ahmo Tihic and Mr. Tabakovic, and Akif Ustic were part of

14 the Srebrenica staff, as well as Mr. Bektic.

15 A. The first establishment of this took place on the 20th of May with

16 the presence of Mr. Oric, Mr. Tursunovic, Mr. Fejzic, Mr. Bogilovic, and

17 Mr. Tihic.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you would understand that this document reflects

19 that understanding that you had of the organisation, the staff during the

20 month of June. Yes or no, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

23 at no point confirmed that Naser Oric had organised the staff. He was

24 talking about something else, that a group of people had set up the staff,

25 but now the witness is -- it is being now suggested to the witness that he

1 should accept that.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, what I'm trying to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection is -- has to be sustained

4 because he has never actually said that. You are proposing or making that

5 proposition to him.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I just restate the question then.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MS. SELLERS: I asked: "Mr. Bogilovic, to your knowledge, was

9 there a commander of the Srebrenica staff?"

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That was the question that you asked before, which

11 hasn't been answered as yet.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the Srebrenica

13 staff was appointed only on the 20th of May by the people when there was a

14 mass -- when mass killings started and there was general fear and the

15 result of all that was on the 20th of May, 1992, when this occurred.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Who was the commander of the Srebrenica staff as of the 20th of

18 May?

19 A. As of the 20th of May, it was Mr. Oric and his deputy, Ustic.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, does this document reflect your

21 understanding of the members of the Srebrenica staff in the month 1992?

22 Please answer yes or no, Mr. Bogilovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except me. Because this is

25 military, you see.

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I have to

4 object to this type of examination of the witness and leading him to a

5 different content of the document than the document actually has. I would

6 like to ask the witness to read the document or to have it read out to

7 him, the contents of the document, which are being put to him, because

8 what it says here is this: They struggled to win back occupied areas.

9 Should undertake to organise and establish the units. And here,

10 Ms. Sellers is constantly referring to the fact that it's a fait accompli,

11 that it has already been carried out whereas the witness is saying

12 something quite different.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely the question that is being put to

14 the witness that hasn't been answered yet.

15 Mr. Bogilovic, the question that you need to answer is the

16 following: Looking at that list over there, does that reflect the

17 situation as it obtained in June of 1992?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that we have

19 all these people elected by the people and that they should act and

20 undertake the establishment of the organisation of defence.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But does that show the position as it was in

22 May, or as it was in June?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first meeting took place on the

24 20th of May.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bogilovic, you have already explained to us what

1 the outcome of that meeting was. Does this reflect the outcome of that

2 meeting, or does it reflect the outcome of further developments?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This reflects the situation which

4 was more complex. And as it became more complex, this was expanded.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this expansion that you are referring

6 to, is it an expansion that took place in June, 1992? Would you say that

7 in June 1992 the expansion that you are mentioning brings us to the list

8 that we see on this document, or not?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Madam Sellers.

11 MS. SELLERS: Mr. Bogilovic, does that expansion include -- and I

12 would like to direct your attention to part C of this document, where, in

13 the English version --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which part C? I have part 3.

15 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. If one goes down to number 10, then part

16 (c). There is (a), (b), (c).

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, does this expansion also include -- in English it

20 is: "At the VP ... the organisation to be carried out by Mirzet

21 Halilovic."

22 A. Well, I'm not quite clear on this, because Mirzet Halilovic was

23 appointed on the 1st of July whereas this was on the 15th of June. So I'm

24 not quite clear about this. So how could this organisation be commenced

25 -- carried out by Mirzet Halilovic when he was appointed only as of the

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13 English transcripts.

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1 1st of July?

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, first I want to clarify, does "VP" mean "military

3 police," under section (c)? Would that be your understanding?

4 A. Most probably. It is an abbreviation, isn't it?

5 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, is it possible that among the military meetings

6 that occurred, that the discussion and the appointment of Mirzet Halilovic

7 happened even though you were not present?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's supposition. He has already told us that --

9 stated that to his knowledge Mirzet Halilovic was appointed on the -- in

10 July, on the 1st. So at this point in time, if there were other

11 possibilities, he would have mentioned them already. So I would not --

12 MS. SELLERS: I will withdraw the question, Your Honour.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, then would it be your testimony that you were

16 unaware of any appointment of Mirzet Halilovic prior to July 1st, 1992?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. All right. Again, Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to ask you to look

19 at the bottom right-hand side of this document. Would you note that this

20 document bears the name of Naser Oric at the bottom. Is that correct?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can I see on the computer monitor, can

22 I see what the witness is looking at?

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that would be on the ELMO, yes. We can

24 put that on.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. Okay. I am asking this -- I asked

1 for this because the photocopy that we have would absolutely be inadequate

2 to show to the witness, particularly if he is being asked to identify

3 signatures, et cetera.

4 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour. This, I would like to

5 emphasise, for those reasons we have provided the originals and my

6 question goes toward the name and not the signature.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, go ahead.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, could you confirm that the name -- I'm referring to

10 the name that is there -- is that of Naser Oric?

11 A. I've never seen this document before. Nothing was actually

12 written up at the time. All I can do is read what it says. Same as you.

13 Q. That's fine, Mr. Bogilovic.

14 MS. SELLERS: Can we take the document from him.

15 Now Your Honours, I would like to, at this point, go to Exhibit

16 P84. I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that we have given copies

17 of P84 in B/C/S to the interpreters so that they might have it in their

18 hands and possibly they will be able to read directly from it today.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just so that you would know how to proceed,

20 Ms. Sellers, since we started late, the break will not be at 10.30, but it

21 will be an hour and a half after we started. So more or less we started

22 at quarter to ten, and it will be an hour an a half from then. Unless I

23 see objections from either the interpreters or technicians. If there are

24 problems, please do let me know. But I don't see any.

25 THE INTERPRETER: No objection, thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I will be looking at pages 12 through

3 13 in the English version of P84, and the ERN number terminates in 5057.

4 JUDGE ESER: We don't have them.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 5057 is on the previous page. It starts on the

6 previous page, on page 12. So I take it you are referring to the first --

7 the top part, the first third of the contents of page 13, Ms. Sellers, is

8 that correct?

9 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. As a matter of fact, I'm referring

10 -- on the English version I have it is a meeting of October 23rd, 1992.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MS. SELLERS: It starts right under ERN 5057.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's Page 12 of the English version.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

15 JUDGE ESER: We don't have it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We can put it on the ELMO. I do have it.

17 MS. SELLERS: It is on Sanctions at this time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

19 MS. SELLERS: And even though it starts on -- at that page, I want

20 to point out the attention to Mr. Bogilovic of, in that text where it

21 begins with "Item 1."

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, are you able to read the paragraph that starts with

23 "Item 1"?

24 A. My apologies. Can I have some assistance from someone who is

25 really good at reading this to read it out to me and I would be very

1 grateful for that.

2 Q. Certainly.

3 MS. SELLERS: Might I ask if one of the interpreters have been

4 able to follow where we've put asterisks marked near Item 1.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it has to be read out

6 in the courtroom by someone first. Thank you.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I might read out in English but I

8 don't know whether that will raise the same objections that we had last

9 week.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Should I read out Item 1A? Which

12 portion do you want to show the witness exactly?

13 MS. SELLERS: I would like to show him, as a matter of fact, the

14 second sentence in Item 1A, continuing until the end of that paragraph,

15 please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you once more, Madam Vidovic, and I wish to

17 make it known that these gestures and -- of cooperation on the part of the

18 Defence will not go unnoticed.

19 MS. SELLERS: Prosecution is also quite grateful, Your Honour.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm only too glad to help. This

21 sentence that the Prosecutor wants to show you is: "It was decided to

22 order the military police to bring soldiers ... into custody and the

23 civilian police will do the same with civilian ... First, Ahmo Tihic has

24 to define the terms 'civilians' and 'soldiers' respectively."

25 Is that sufficient, or should I continue?

1 MS. SELLERS: I want to go down to the next -- not the next

2 paragraph, the one after that, where it says, "The security chief said

3 ..." and then conclude with the sentence right after the next ERN number.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "The security chief said that he

5 accepted any talks or tasks put down in writing. The conclusion was

6 adopted that an interview would be held with the military police commander

7 at the staff headquarters regarding the functioning of the military

8 police.

9 "It was decided that the military police would go to Poloznik,

10 bring into custody the guards who had refused to perform their duties, and

11 return the requested automatic rifle."

12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, my question is: Were you present when these

14 decisions were taken about the functioning of the military police?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Ms. Sellers, please proceed.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, could you answer my question, and it was: Were

20 you present when these discussions and decisions regarding the military

21 police were taken?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You can assist the witness more by repeating to him

23 that this meeting allegedly took place on the 23rd of October, 1992.

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, were you present at a meeting on the 23rd of

1 October, 1992?

2 A. I can't recall specifically whether I attended this meeting. This

3 meeting was of a more military nature.

4 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, isn't it, from your testimony, it seems that

5 you did not attend the meetings of the military staff or military

6 organisations.

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Were you a civilian at this time period or were you a member of

9 the army, armed forces?

10 A. In my opinion, I remained a civilian throughout. Only on the 20th

11 of May when it was set up, since this was the first organisation that I

12 was involved in, but after the War Presidency was set up on the 1st of

13 July, I went back to being a civilian because the staff too was separated.

14 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, when -- at this meeting when they are discussing a

15 conversation being held with the military police commander, they are not

16 referring to you, are they?

17 A. I don't know what they had in mind. These are military matters

18 being discussed here, because there is reference to the military. So

19 those implementing these conclusions, I suppose, should have been the

20 military police.

21 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. I would like to have the document

22 removed from the witness. We will be going back to that document on a

23 couple of other occasions, but right now I would like to have document P7

24 shown to the witness, please.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please take the time to look at this

1 document.

2 A. I've never seen this document before. I believe this is a

3 military document. Naturally, the substance of this document is probably

4 a military secret, though there is reference here to codes which I do not

5 understand.

6 Q. Therefore, Mr. Bogilovic as the chief of the republic security

7 sector, you did not receive this document on October -- in or about

8 October 31st, 1992. Would that be your testimony?

9 A. That's not what I wish to say. It's true that I did not receive

10 this document, but I am really not familiar with these codes and names.

11 The armed forces staff and then the name 1357, I have no idea what that

12 refers to. This is all completely new to me. I don't know why these

13 numbers are here.

14 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would ask you to look at the numbers 1 through 16

15 -- not the codes -- are you familiar that some of those names were

16 components within the armed forces of Srebrenica?

17 A. There is not a single name here referring to a specific

18 individual. These are code names.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I'm referring to names of brigades or battalions or

20 places, I'm not referring to names of persons. Are you familiar with

21 these names of brigades or battalions or units?

22 A. These references here, you mean? What things are called in the

23 army? I know these are military matters. In Suceska and Potocari there

24 was a military presence there, but there were no conditions there, no

25 security provided for the military.

1 Q. Thank you. Might I draw your attention to number 16 on the list

2 and would you agree that the military police were parts of the unit that

3 came under the armed forces of Srebrenica as of October 31st, 1992?

4 A. That's what the document says. The line 16.

5 Q. Yes. Might I briefly just draw your attention to the name at the

6 bottom of the document. Would you agree that that name is Naser Oric?

7 MR. JONES: When we had this question, especially when we have

8 such a poor quality, can the witness be asked: Are you able to see what

9 name is at the bottom; and then, if so, what is it? Rather than it being

10 suggested each time.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, certainly. I understand that this part

12 of the testimony, that I am basically making for the record. I do not

13 want to belabour the point to be brought up around names or signatures.

14 Now, if we do want to take it a bit slower, can you see this, or

15 do you recognise the name? What does the name look like? Can you see the

16 signature?

17 MR. JONES: I don't think this is any way to get this witness's

18 evidence. And the other way it's been suggested won't take that much

19 longer to simply say: Can you identify it and what does it say? That's

20 the correct way to do it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. You are mostly correct, but not

22 entirely. I mean, let's take it from here, Ms. Sellers.

23 Basically, what appears on the face of the document is there for

24 all of us -- for all of us to see.

25 MS. SELLERS: Yes, that's correct.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't really see how a confirmation by the

2 witness that at the bottom of that page it has "Commandant, Stara OS

3 Srebrenica" and "Naser Oric," is going to improve the situation. But of

4 course you have -- you are free to address any other question that you

5 would like on what appears at the bottom of the page.

6 MS. SELLERS: All right. Now, Your Honour --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Not for him to confirm to us what we can see for

8 ourselves.

9 MR. JONES: It is particularly this one, it may be academic, but

10 for all we know it says Oricivic [phoen] or something. We can't see the

11 end of it, so it's artificial in the extreme to say, Do you confirm that

12 it says Naser Oric, when in fact we can't see anything after the "I," in

13 my submission.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I will move on.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it is the case of moving on. I can see

16 a little bit better than you, Mr. Jones, although I do not claim to have

17 better eyesight.

18 MR. JONES: You may well have better eyesight, but that is what I

19 can see.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed.

21 MS. SELLERS: The document may be taken away from the witness.

22 Thank you.

23 Your Honour. I would now ask that the witness be given document

24 P79. I'm sorry, prior to giving the witness P79, I would just like to ask

25 one question.

1 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you know someone called Osman Osmanovic, or did

2 you know someone called Osman Osmanovic in 1992?

3 A. I personally knew Mr. Osman Osmanovic, yes.

4 Q. Can you tell me who Osman Osmanovic was and what function, if any,

5 did he have in 1992, more precisely in the fall of 1992.

6 A. Osman Osmanovic was a teacher. He was a military person too. How

7 he came to the staff, because that's where he worked, probably through the

8 army, but I really can't say. He worked with the staff.

9 Q. Were you present, to your knowledge, at meetings of the staff in

10 September of 1992?

11 A. I can't remember September specifically. I was on sick leave in

12 those days. I wasn't able to move about, so I can't be certain whether I

13 was present or not.

14 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, just for the sake of clarity, when you're referring

15 to the "staff," are you referring to the War Presidency staff or are you

16 referring to the military staff?

17 A. The War Presidency staff was civilian. Whenever a meeting was

18 called, I was invited. As I was not able to come, to attend at the

19 moment, some of the meetings were held in my absence. On the 14th of

20 October, 1992 I was called to attend a meeting of the War Presidency.

21 Q. I would like to draw your attention to September of 1992.

22 MS. SELLERS: And could the witness please be shown document P79.

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look over the document.

24 Mr. Bogilovic, as a member of the War Presidency in September of 1992, did

25 you ever see or receive this document?

1 A. No. Never. I've never seen it and I've never received it.

2 Q. So even though you were on the War Presidency, there were

3 documents that were -- even though you were on the War Presidency, a

4 document such as this might not have been given to members of the War

5 Presidency. Would that be true?

6 A. It would be true. I never received it. Whether anyone else was

7 given it, I really can't say. I hadn't ever seen this until you

8 interviewed me.

9 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the list of names and

10 functions between 1 and 11. Would you please look at that and see if that

11 is familiar with your knowledge of persons and positions in September and

12 October 1992.

13 A. I'm familiar with some of these names and not with others. I know

14 Osman Osmanovic. I know Nijaz Masic, I know Adil Muhic, I know Hamed

15 Salihovic. I'm not sure about Ibrahim Smajic, I know Ramiz Becirovic, and

16 I know Hamed Alic. I also know Nedzib Habibovic from Krusevo [phoen]. I

17 know Nedret Mujkanovic too. He had come from Tuzla.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I'm sorry, I have to intervene, because

19 we can't go on like this. It is more confusing, the confusionary as it

20 is. Look at the first one. Osman Osmanovic.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I was going to take him through just a

22 couple of those. I understand that he took no more than three.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, because -- The other thing is that, I

24 see here Nedzib Halilovic, but the transcript, or in the interpretation, I

25 heard Habibovic. Did you say Nedzib Habibovic or Nedzib Halilovic?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Habibovic, Nedzib.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So yes, exactly, I'm pointing this out: In the

3 English translation of the document, there is a mistake. Because number

4 10 is shown as Nedzib Halilovic, while it is obvious from the original,

5 from the -- it is Habibovic and not Halilovic.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Bogilovic, can we quickly confirm, if it is true, that

8 Osman Osmanovic was the chief of operations staff, to your knowledge.

9 Does this document reflect that?

10 A. Yes, that's what the document says, Osman Osmanovic, indeed.

11 Q. Would you also confirm that Hamed Salihovic was in the department

12 for security and intelligence.

13 A. Hamed Salihovic, yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Because arising from the previous

15 answer that he gave, I want to make sure whether his answer is in the

16 sense that that's what the document states, or whether yes, that's how it

17 was.

18 MS. SELLERS: To his knowledge, whether the document reflects his

19 knowledge.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But that is not what he answered before. He

21 answered that's what the document says, which is different.

22 MS. SELLERS:

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, to your knowledge, does this document reflect your

24 knowledge that Hamed Salihovic was in the department of security and

25 intelligence?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. The

3 witness should be asked when. Secondly, he never said he was actually

4 aware of this.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But he will soon tell us whether he was aware

6 of it, or not.

7 And I think the first objection is relevant. I think you need to

8 explain to the witness that this document refers to the 19th of September

9 of 1992 and his answers ought to be restricted to that particular period.

10 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you do note that the date is the 19th of September.

14 I believe my earlier question asked you, in terms of September, as a

15 member of the War Presidency, did you have knowledge of these persons and

16 their functions? If you didn't, you can say you didn't. If you did,

17 certainly I would just like you to acknowledge it one way or the other,

18 according to your knowledge.

19 A. Officially, no. This was produced by the staff and we were not

20 aware.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. Would you please look at the last

22 paragraph, where it says "Statement of Reason" in English, and I would

23 like to read one line out that says: "I hereby submit it to the

24 Presidency for verification by its decision so that it may then request

25 approval from Republican authorities to issue decisions."

1 Do you see that part of the document, Mr. Bogilovic?

2 A. What it says here is that they hereby submit it to the Presidency

3 to inform the competent bodies at the republican level, most likely in

4 order for this to be recorded.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. SELLERS: We can remove the document from the witness at this

7 point, please.

8 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you've testified that you were at the meeting on

9 October 14th, 1992 of the War Presidency. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And was it at that meeting that you became aware of certain

12 appointments that were being made?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Is that when you became aware of the appointment of Osman

15 Osmanovic?

16 A. Then, yes, because Osman Osmanovic was occupying this position

17 then, yes.

18 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the witness shown P8, please.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at this document carefully.

20 Yes. Is this where you became aware -- does this document reflect when

21 you became aware of the appointment of Osman Osmanovic?

22 A. This decision shows that he is being appointed, but I find it

23 strange that it is signed by the president of the Presidency. But this

24 same kind of document was one I received, dated the 14th of October, which

25 was signed by the president of the Presidency.

1 Q. And could you look at the document, and in particular, would you

2 look at section 5. According to your knowledge, who did Osman Osmanovic

3 report to as a superior?

4 A. Pursuant to this decision, Osman Osmanovic should have reported to

5 the commander of the armed forces.

6 Q. In your appointment as chief of public security, who did you

7 report to?

8 A. I was subordinated to the president of the War Presidency,

9 Hajrudin Avdic.

10 Q. So to your knowledge, during that time period Osman Osmanovic

11 reported to a military line of command and you reported to a civilian line

12 of command; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The same

17 thing was repeated that we had on Friday. The witness at no point said

18 that a chain of command existed. That is something that was suggested and

19 is being constantly suggested to him by the Prosecution.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I could rephrase that as a superior.

21 I'm not trying to imply in any way in establishing a command. I'm just

22 trying to say who one would report to, in that sense.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that was made clear last time and that is

24 how it is being taken today. The witness's answer does not really

25 indicate or is being taken as meaning that there was -- there was a

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1 confirmation that there was a proper chain of command. It's a question of

2 who he was answerable to. All right. I mean, I'm pretty sure that he

3 knows who he was answerable to in any case. Yes, Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the document to be taken, I

5 would like to direct the attention of Mr. Bogilovic to the screen and our

6 attention also. There is a photo.

7 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you recognise any of the persons in this photo?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the witness.

9 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The microphone, witness microphone. One is switched

11 on, the other one isn't, but he is speaking over the one which is not

12 switched on.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do recognise Osman Osmanovic and

14 Mr. Naser Oric.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to explain this. First of all, one moment,

16 Mr. Bogilovic.

17 Which exhibit is this clip taken from, Ms. Sellers?

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is also 517. This is the same

19 video that we used on Friday.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 517?

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: 517?

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness is being shown a

25 clip from or a still from exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit P517. The still

1 occurring at, clocked at 2 minutes 56 seconds point 7. And the clip also

2 shows a date of 19th of August, 1992, with the time shown at 8.30. 8.30.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that is 2.55.7.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What did I say? 2.56? Yes, it is 2.55. Two

5 minutes 55 seconds, point 7.

6 Now, Witness, you said you recognised two persons. But I see

7 three. Could you identify the two persons one by one, please. Do you

8 identify the person that you see on the extreme left of the document? You

9 see an arrow pointing at that person?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the arrow is, that's Mr. Osman

11 Osmanovic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And for the record, the witness has

13 indicated the person to be Osman Osmanovic as the person which is -- who

14 is at the extreme left of the screen.

15 Let's move to the one in the middle. Do you recognise that

16 person?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the arrow is now is Mr. Oric.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And for the record, the witness has

19 identified the person who stands in the middle, in the centre of this

20 still, as being Naser Oric.

21 And let's put the arrow on the third person. Look at that person.

22 Do you identify that person?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The arrow on the person is a person

24 I don't know. I cannot recognise that individual.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And for the record, the person that the

1 witness is unable to identify is the person at the extreme right of the

2 photo.

3 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. We may dispense now

5 with that.

6 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, at the meeting on the 14th of October, 1992, to

7 your memory were there any announcements in regard to Mr. Hamed Salihovic?

8 A. I can't remember. I really don't know.

9 Q. Do you know whether he was officially appointed to a position, or

10 not?

11 A. On that day there were a number of decisions that were made, so I

12 really can't say for each individual. I can't confirm. I'm not sure.

13 Probably there are the minutes that were kept in the notebook, and you

14 could find it there.

15 Q. Would there also possibly be other types of documents similar to

16 the one that you received in regard to your appointment?

17 A. I can guarantee from my document, the one I received. As for

18 others, what the procedure was there, I really can't say.

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to have the witness see

20 document 221. Prosecution Exhibit 221. We have the translation. I don't

21 know whether the others have it. We would be willing to hand it up. If

22 the usher could please assist us also with the translations that we would

23 like to have handed to the Trial Chamber and the parties.

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, looking at this document, does that refresh your

25 memory in regard to Mr. Salihovic on the 14th of October, 1992?

1 A. As far as this format is concerned and this decision, I received

2 the same thing. It looked like this.

3 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Salihovic appointed as chief of

4 intelligence and security affairs during that time period?

5 A. Since I don't know military terms well enough, I can't say who did

6 what function. But all I can say is that he was there.

7 Q. Do you know, from your knowledge, who Mr. Salihovic would have

8 reported to as a superior?

9 A. If he was with the army, then that should have been to the

10 military command. He should have been subordinated to the military

11 command. But I'm not sure because everything is being mixed up here.

12 Once again, I see Hajrudin Avdic's signature here.

13 Q. Do you recognise that signature, Mr. Bogilovic?

14 A. Signatures like this, what can I say?

15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much. You can remove the document

16 from the witness.

17 Your Honours, I now go to P84 again.

18 Q. I would like to draw your attention to pages 16, in the English

19 version, through 17, and the ERN number would be 02115063.

20 If one would go to page 17 now in the English version, where it

21 says: "A meeting of the 3rd of November 1992." Mr. Bogilovic, you've

22 consistently testified that you were not present during military meetings

23 or when military matters were discussed.

24 I would like to have a section read out to you again, to ask you,

25 are you aware of the contents of this discussion.

1 MS. SELLERS: Madam Vidovic, might I ask you -- is it possible you

2 can remain seated while reading?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'm concerned with the paragraph that begins with

5 the English version, "The Chief and Ramiz B." then it concludes in the

6 next paragraph down with the very -- what appears to be a short paragraph.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "In addition to the chief of staff,

8 in addition to the chief of staff, the meeting of the War Presidency will

9 be attended by Becir [as interpreted] B. Ramiz. The meeting doesn't have

10 an agenda, but from the announcement we can conclude that two police

11 forces will function, the present communications and information service

12 and current issues will be discussed. When it comes to the civilian and

13 military police, the staff maintains it is necessary to carry out

14 personnel changes. All former policemen, both active duty and reserve,

15 must be included in both forces. Insists that record be made of all

16 confiscated items and one copy be given to the owner of the confiscated

17 item. Both police forces must inform the order issuing authority that the

18 order has been carried out."

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I saw in the

21 transcript that it says "Becir." It is "B. Ramiz."

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. SELLERS:

24 Q. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, you have just listened to that part of this

25 document being read out. Now, were you aware of these discussions taking

1 place at the meetings, the military meetings concerning the police

2 organisations?

3 A. Something that is linked to military meetings? Well, if I wasn't

4 there, I became aware of it only if Avdic told me about it. Ramiz is

5 mentioned here and it is Becirovic Ramiz that is referred to and the B. is

6 the abbreviation. But it is Becirovic. B. is short for Becirovic.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. Can we clarify something: Was the

8 entire organisation of the military police put under your authority or was

9 it Mirzet Halilovic who was placed under you after October 14th, 1992?

10 A. On the 14th of October, 1992, under my competence and authority,

11 Mirzet was placed -- it said Mirzet. That is what was written, Mirzet.

12 Now it didn't say for the others. All it said was Mirzet, and he was the

13 commander of the military police at the time, komandir.

14 Q. Thank you. I would now like to draw your attention to, I believe

15 we remain with P84 and we'll look at pages in the English version, 19

16 through 20. The ERN number concludes in 5068. I draw your attention next

17 to the minutes of the 9th of November, 1992 meeting.

18 Mr. Bogilovic, did you attend a joint meeting of the War

19 Presidency and the armed forces staff on the 9th of November, 1992?

20 A. I think I did.

21 Q. Do you recall that at that meeting on the agenda was to be a

22 discussion about the police force?

23 A. Yes, it was a rather broad meeting and everything was discussed.

24 Q. At that meeting, do you remember whether you participated in

25 discussions concerning the safety and security concerns in Zepa?

1 A. As far as Zepa is concerned, that was a problem that they had made

2 because they issued an order to Zepa that all the people there, for their

3 own safety and security, should move into the Srebrenica area. So that

4 created a great influx of citizens coming in, which disrupted law and

5 order where we were and created problems for us. So of course we

6 discussed it.

7 Q. Did you discuss also the safety concerns of the forces, the armed

8 forces that would go to Zepa? Do you remember that?

9 A. I remember. Now, whether it was my job -- well, the safety and

10 security of citizens was -- I think I proposed that at distant points,

11 especially Zepa where it was unsafe, you had to go on foot for 12 hours

12 and the Serb forces would cut across the terrain. So for that reason, I

13 proposed, as -- that as commander, Mr. Oric should not go because he was

14 needed here, because most of the people was there -- were there, in

15 Srebrenica.

16 Q. Thank you. I draw your attention to page 20 in the English

17 version. And I just would like to confirm. It is one sentence, if I

18 could be allowed just to read that sentence and have it translated.

19 Mr. Bogilovic, did you say something of the nature that: "It was

20 agreed that our commander would not go there. He can only go when the

21 security conditions are better." Do you agree that you said something of

22 that nature at the meeting concerning security concerns in Zepa?

23 A. Most probably I did say that.

24 Q. Thank you. I would now like to draw your attention to page 21 in

25 the English version, please.

1 MS. SELLERS: Here I would have to ask for some assistance.

2 Again, there is a rather longer passage. It is found under ERN number

3 5070. If I could ask for some assistance from Madam Vidovic again. I

4 would like to have the witness read where about one-half way down the

5 page, it says "Sahid," and then on the second line it says "Osman." If we

6 could read from there and then conclude.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Sahid: I'm not trying to defend

8 myself. I'm going to say exactly what is not good.

9 "Osman: At first, everything was okay with the police. When we

10 'illegally' changed the composition of the police force, problems arise.

11 The military police do not have any support.

12 "Hamdija: There is still some shooting. When this is not done

13 properly, everything goes downhill. In these matters we should start from

14 the commander.

15 "Becir: We are all being dishonest. We are also to blame.

16 Units are stealing from other units. If a vehicle belongs to the Armed

17 Forces and if somebody is a member... the civilian police do not have the

18 right to intervene.

19 "Conclusion: File a report against the unit commander and pass it

20 to the Staff.

21 "The court is not functioning. We do not have a state or

22 authorities so we have to do best we can. Troublemakers should be

23 detained for three days and then put on trial!

24 "The military police and civilian police --" and here it is not

25 quite clear -- "include --" and then the part that isn't clear.

1 "Hamed: We have the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's better

2 to have some kind of government than none at all. I propose: - That the

3 Secretariat designate the military posts. - That the Secretariat work out

4 wartime assignments for everyone. - The Police should be assigned tasks

5 according to a staff specification.

6 "Osman: We need an internal act for the military police. There

7 are enough men for the reserve police force as well. Take the VES --

8 VES/VP -- military police from the files.

9 "Zulfo: We have to pass regulations until freedom. Let's

10 punish the offenders: The court cannot pass final judgments. It has not

11 been formed properly. It has a preventative task.

12 "- The military police belongs to the OSA not VP. - Work out the

13 VES. - 90% of the policemen to be from the Srebrenica area. - Work out a

14 job classification description of other duties for the police.

15 "Mirza: You gave me a free hand. ... two months. Is that all

16 right? But somebody didn't like the town having been put in order --

17 people from Potocari. The new people that I got were worse. - People

18 must be appointed at the next meeting and this should be set up, set up

19 checkpoints. They should be manned by members of both police forces.

20 - Three vehicles must be requisitioned - everything socially-owned - from

21 private entrepreneurs."

22 And then we have a paragraph entitled "Information."

23 MS. SELLERS: I am very grateful. Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Bogilovic --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, was it clear that problems arising both in the

3 civilian and in the military police were discussed by both the military

4 staff and War Presidency staff at this joint meeting?

5 A. Most probably, yes. Because there were many problems that had

6 amassed. Lots of things hadn't been solved.

7 Q. And these problems were well known at this time, weren't they,

8 Mr. Bogilovic?

9 A. Well, they did crop up, yes, because people from other areas were

10 coming in, inhabitants from other areas were coming in. And the more

11 people who were coming in, the larger the problems.

12 Q. Now, in what has just been read to you, there was a name that was

13 Mirza. What is the full name of that person, if you know?

14 A. If it was Halilovic, Mirza, I think his real name was Mirzet and

15 he was called Mirza for short, I think.

16 Q. Do you know whether Mirzet or Mirza Halilovic disagreed with the

17 fact that you would have any authority over him?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he answered that question last Friday.

19 MS. SELLERS: Okay, fine.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He explained, from what I recall, that this

21 Halilovic ignored him, he wanted to go his own way, and that he had to

22 write a long letter to Avdic as a result of which then Halilovic was

23 removed.

24 MS. SELLERS: Fine.

25 Q. Then can I just go directly to the quote that is attributed to

1 Mirzet here. Does that also reflect some of the antagonism that he felt,

2 particularly toward you?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to repeat the question, because I

4 noticed that the witness dropped his earphones while you were --

5 MS. SELLERS:

6 Q. When Mr. Mirzet's quote read that, "You gave me a free hand.

7 Everything was good for two months. But somebody didn't like it, that the

8 town has been put in order -- people from Potocari. The new people that I

9 got were worse."

10 Would you agree that some of the antagonism that Mr. Halilovic

11 might have felt towards you was contained in that statement?

12 A. Most probably that was his defence. It all depended on how he

13 dealt with the situation in town, whether he did this -- did his duty in

14 the prescribed manner, or not. So quite normally individuals didn't like

15 it, whereas his people, his men probably liked it.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move to page 23 of P84.

17 MS. SELLERS: I understand we're coming up to a break?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You've got roughly two minutes. If you can

19 finish the next question in two minutes, go ahead. If not, we'll have a

20 break now.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, let's go to break.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

24 --- Upon resuming at 11:55 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. Sorry for the delay. We had a

1 technical problem. Yes, Ms. Sellers.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, in October and November 1992, was the civilian

4 police charged with setting up any checkpoints or barriers within the town

5 in the municipality of Srebrenica?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak a little closer to

7 the microphone.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so. That was the reason

9 someone had to bring order, to create an entrance to the street, and all

10 those coming in had to be registered. There were difficulties with motor

11 vehicles, motor vehicles coming in and the people driving them were not

12 the actual owners. And sometimes owners would turn up with valid permits

13 and papers showing that those were their vehicles.

14 So in order to be able to return these vehicles to their rightful

15 owners, we set up a swing gate so that people on the way in could be

16 registered.

17 Q. Was that manned by the civilian police or the military police?

18 A. I think all of us were civilians because we dealt with civilians

19 and the military dealt with their own.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to go back to P84 now.

21 And in the English version, it is page 23, ERN number ends in 5073.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you nearly finished your examination-in-chief?

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would truly like to finish today.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try because we want to make sure that this

25 witness goes home on Wednesday. Finishes on Wednesday, anyway.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, if I just may ask you, were you present at the

3 meeting on the 10th of November, 1992 of the OS staff?

4 A. I can't remember the date. But if indeed I was present, most

5 probably I would have contributed. I did every time I was there, so if

6 this is actually recorded in the minutes, then I must have been there.

7 Q. Did you normally attend the meetings of the OS, the military

8 staff, Mr. Bogilovic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I would like to draw your attention now to page 24 in the English

11 version.

12 MS. SELLERS: And if I might ask the indulgence of defence counsel

13 again, on page 24, where we have more than halfway down Zulfo starts to

14 speak, until the end of where Mirza speaks, if that could be read out to

15 Mr. Bogilovic. The ERN number on that page would be -- would end in 5074.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Zulfo: Top priority is to put the

17 police on a sound footing.

18 "Ramiz: An order will be issued prohibiting soldiers from moving

19 around without their cards or leave permits. The police must have the

20 right to carry out checks both in town and at the checkpoint. All reports

21 shall be submitted to the Staff. The police must register all the

22 vehicles and some of these are to be given to units for use.

23 "Avdic: Vehicles must be requisitioned and given to units.

24 Three to five vehicles have to be parked outside the Staff.

25 "Osman: All vehicles must be requisitioned.

1 "Mirza: After the meeting at the Cultural Centre, I waited for

2 an order to set up checkpoints and carry out checks. The checkpoints have

3 still not been set up."

4 MS. SELLERS: I would then now like to go to page 25 where it says

5 section II, and if we could just have the first paragraph after section II

6 read out to Mr. Bogilovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Cooperation with the military

8 police is good. The composition and numbers of personnel in the military

9 police should be permanent. The idea about deployment along the front

10 line and stepping in are Mirza's. The chief of the public security

11 station has not passed on the order to set up barricades to the police.

12 As for requisitioning material and technical equipment from the

13 population, everything went well in the beginning. There are surely

14 people in the police for whom bringing order would not be convenient. It

15 is important for us to have a strong police force. Whichever policemen

16 cooperated with commanders were good policemen -- to find the perpetrators

17 of the latest incidents.

18 "Zulfo: There are some individuals who do not find it convenient

19 to have good police officers around."

20 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

21 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, my question is: Did you issue orders to Mirza

22 Halilovic to set up the checkpoints during this time period? This is

23 November 1992.

24 A. I don't think I issued any orders for checkpoints to be set up.

25 This would need to be set up by one of the civilian authorities in order

1 to check citizens on their way in.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. SELLERS: I would now just like to have part of that same page

4 - and I would like to remind us we're on ERN 0211075, where it starts

5 with "carry out an investigation," on that second line is the word

6 "Mirza."

7 Madam Vidovic, if you are able to?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please -- can you please

9 repeat the reference number, the ERN number.

10 MS. SELLERS: The ERN number --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, it's two lines from where you left

12 before. Two lines from where you stopped reading before.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "He did not let Ahmo's men go to the

14 prison for 48 hours and is no longer with the police. - Conduct an

15 investigation into that fellow from Bajramovici's... Mirza says that he

16 has carried out the preliminary procedure, and the record was delivered to

17 Becir. Mirza was not supposed to put him in gaol. Resid or Hamed and the

18 court to conduct further proceedings. Suspects to be detained. The

19 police are ... opening up checkpoints. The police to be revitalised by

20 Suljo."

21 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, my question is were you working with Mirza then in

23 detaining or arresting persons who committed crimes in Srebrenica?

24 A. I remember that Ahmo Tihic brought some persons in. Those persons

25 were interrogated and in order to get on with this, because of the

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4

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6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 shortage of food, or space, those persons were released. There was no

2 court, after all, that we could pass the case on to. Statements were

3 taken from them and this was postponed for sometime when conditions were

4 in place to prosecute them.

5 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, was it both the civilian police and the

6 military police that were carrying out these types of activities jointly

7 whenever criminal acts were made known to you?

8 A. Most probably when I was authorised to monitor Mirza's activity.

9 After the military police were finally separated from the civilian police,

10 this would have fallen under the jurisdiction of the police, this would

11 have fallen under the jurisdiction of the military police.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Bogilovic, you testified that you wrote a

13 report to Mr. Avdic. Do you remember more or less what was the date on

14 which you wrote that report?

15 A. I'm sorry to say that this is the one document that I have not yet

16 seen here. I would really appreciate having this document around, but

17 please accept my apologies. The problems we faced at the time were so

18 great that we didn't know what day of the week it was, let alone the date

19 or anything like that.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you also testified that there was a separation at

21 one time between the civilian and the military police. Did Mr. Avdic

22 inform you that Mirzet Halilovic would no longer be under your authority?

23 A. I think he did. First of all, there were talks about

24 Mr. Halilovic's work, and then it got out of control and I was responsible

25 pursuant to a decision by the Presidency. I described his work and his

1 behavior and said that I could no longer stand by that.

2 Q. Well as someone who was under your authority, did Mirzet Halilovic

3 come to you and either resign or did you remove him from his duties?

4 A. I had no power to remove him from his duties because I had not

5 been one to appoint him to begin with. He had been appointed as my

6 subordinate and the appointment was signed by the president of the War

7 Presidency, Mr. Hajrudin Avdic. And the way I saw it, it should have been

8 down to him to do it because he was the one I spoke to. He was the one

9 who had ordered me to do that, so I went back to him to talk about that.

10 I was his subordinate, after all.

11 As for any other contacts, there was some tension, obviously, and

12 it was very difficult to get to meet him. Contact was avoided. It was

13 very difficult even to write this letter and live on once you've written

14 it.

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did it come to your knowledge that Mirzet Halilovic

16 was no longer the chief or the komandir of the military police?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you attend any military meetings where you were informed that

19 he would no longer be the komandir of the military police?

20 A. I think I did and was told who might be the next in line for that

21 job. Someone had to be found as soon as possible to take up duties and

22 continue to work in that position, as prescribed by the rules.

23 Q. I would like to return to P84. If could go to page 26, the ERN

24 number would be 5077. Mr. Bogilovic, did you attend a meeting of the OS

25 staff on the 22nd of November, 1992? Mr. Bogilovic, if I could direct

1 your attention further down the page where you will see a date, 22

2 November, 1992.

3 A. I've seen the date. 22nd of November 1992.

4 Q. Did you attend --

5 A. I can't remember. There were meetings held on those days.

6 Whether it was the 22nd or the 23rd, I really can't say. Probably so if

7 that's what the record reflects. It must be true then.

8 Q. I would like to go to page 29 in the English version. It would be

9 under ERN number 5079. And there is a line where it says Mirzet

10 Halilovic's -- if I might continue to translate this part since it is only

11 one sentence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's -- if I may point this out, it is not -- at

13 least on the English version that we have, it is not on 29 but on page 28.

14 Seven lines from the bottom.

15 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I think I am working on a slightly

16 different formatted version.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you see where Mirza Halilovic's resignation,

20 unanimously accepted. Do you see that line?

21 A. Can you please point it out to me?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you see on that page the number VI? Can --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a Roman numeral.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, let's not waste time. Can you bring it

25 over here, please. I'm asking him to see number VI. This is here and

1 what he should look at is this line here. Over here. Start from there.

2 You see Sakib, Atif. Keep on reading and tell me whether you come across

3 this line: "Mr. Halilovic's resignation unanimously accepted." Can you

4 find it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can find it, but can someone

6 please read this out to me, the whole thing? Because I see that here it

7 says: Sakib, Dudic, Mirza Halilovic, and it says "unanimously accepted."

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. It is precisely that sentence. I need no more.

10 Mr. Bogilovic, then did Mirza Halilovic hand his resignation to

11 you?

12 A. I'm sorry, but he didn't.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Bogilovic, you've testified that there was

14 another person, I believe, who then was in charge of the military police

15 after you. Do you by any chance know of that person's name?

16 A. I do. Mirzet Halilovic was replaced by Atif Krdzic, also known as

17 Sakib, from the village of Osmace. He was formerly a policeman of the

18 Srebrenica police station.

19 Q. Would you please look at the screen.

20 A. There you have it right in the middle of the screen.

21 Q. Do you recognise the person who is there; and if so, will you tell

22 the Trial Chamber the person's name.

23 A. This person in the middle of the screen, the photograph that I can

24 see here, is Atif Krdzic, from the village of Osmace.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for the record, Ms. Sellers, do I take it that

1 this is from 517?

2 MS. SELLERS: 517.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the still that the -- still photo

4 that the witness is being referred to is taken from P517 and it is clocked

5 at 5 minutes, 33 seconds, point 4. And the witness has identified the

6 person in the middle as being that of Krdzic Atif. Yes, let's proceed.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, were you aware and did you participate

9 in any activities such as reorganisation of the military police in

10 November 1992, towards the latter part of November 1992?

11 A. As for reorganisation of the military police, I don't think I was

12 involved. Ultimately the military police fell under the purview of the

13 army, if I may call it that.

14 Q. All right.

15 MS. SELLERS: I would like to show now Exhibit P11, please, to

16 Mr. Bogilovic. Mr. Bogilovic will see the original.

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at the document and briefly

18 read through its content.

19 A. I believe this decision indicates that there was better

20 organisation and better control. Up to this point, the police had been in

21 town. However, no checks were conducted outside the town itself. This is

22 when there was a proposal which was eventually adopted for the military

23 police, depending on their strength, to go out into the field in order to

24 exercise control and carry out checks of what was being done.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did any authority that you had over the military

1 police then cease prior to this reorganisation as reflected in the

2 document?

3 A. I think so. There was a change, a different person was appointed,

4 and obviously this was eventually resolved. There was always a problem in

5 terms of seniority. We didn't know whether the Presidency came first or

6 the staff. It was here that I finally found out that the army was

7 subordinated to the army and independent of the Srebrenica Presidency.

8 Q. And the person whose name appears at the bottom of that document,

9 is that the person who you testified earlier about who was part of the

10 army staff, Mr. Osman Osmanovic?

11 A. That's what the signature says, chief of staff, Osman Osmanovic

12 which he was at the time.

13 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, yes, thank you, we can have that document

14 removed.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

16 JUDGE ESER: I have a correction to the transcript. "It was here

17 that I finally found out that the army was subordinated to the army and

18 independent of the Srebrenica Presidency." It doesn't make sense.

19 Because the army was subordinated to the army.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was subordinated to the army? [Microphone not

21 activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What we would like to know is what you stated

24 exactly: Who, according to you, you found out that was now subordinated

25 to the army?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That precisely was the problem;

2 whose decisions were to be implemented? The decisions made by the

3 Presidency or those made by the staff of the armed forces or whatever they

4 were called.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. You haven't answered my question. You

6 said before "There was always a problem in terms of seniority. We didn't

7 know whether the Presidency came first or the staff. It was here that I

8 finally found out that - who, someone - was subordinated to the army and

9 independent of the Srebrenica Presidency." Who was subordinated to the

10 army and independent of the Srebrenica Presidency that you found out now

11 in November?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the civilian authorities

13 were subordinated to the president, Mr. Avdic. And the secretariat and

14 myself, the civilian police were all comprised by this. The commission

15 for housing related affairs, bodies of the Municipal Assembly --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. It's a very simple question that I have asked

17 you and it has arisen because we think that there is a mistake in the

18 transcript. Who did you say that you found out, in November, that was

19 subordinated to the army and not to the Presidency?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police staff, it was

21 subordinated.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The civilian police or the military police?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police. The civilian

24 police remained under the War Presidency, or rather, the president

25 personally throughout.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Ms. Sellers please.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, could the military police then make decisions

4 independent of any civilian authorities, to your knowledge?

5 A. The military police could make some decisions, but only within the

6 framework of their military authority.

7 MS. SELLERS: I would like to show the witness now P12, please.

8 Mr. Bogilovic will see the original. I believe we have the copies.

9 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look over this document.

10 Mr. Bogilovic, would you confirm that this document is a document that

11 appears to be directed to or concerns Atif Krdzic, the person who we saw

12 on the photo who you describe as commander of the military police.

13 A. That is correct. I have never seen this document before.

14 Everything it says is true. It is true that Atif Krdzic, as you see the

15 name stated, and that is the individual I pointed out in that photograph.

16 That most probably, after his appointment, things would have improved.

17 And that is why he is hereby authorised to make decisions on who would be

18 removed and who would stay.

19 I had the same situation in the police. I had some people that I

20 had removed and brought new people in, because those other people that I

21 had removed were not good enough for me.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bogilovic.

23 MS. SELLERS: You can remove the document from him.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, as regards the cross-examination, as

25 we approach the end of the examination-in-chief, could you update us on

1 how much time you require? You may sit down. Please remain seated.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it will

3 take at least six hours.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So please try to finish today.

7 MS. SELLERS: I will endeavour to finish today. Certainly we are

8 nearing --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't take any risk at this point in time of

10 not finishing by Wednesday.

11 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did it come to your knowledge during the month of

13 December, 1992, that members of the OS staff wanted to resign?

14 A. I did learn about that and I was at the meeting.

15 Q. Did you learn the reasons why they might have wanted to resign?

16 A. Well, the reasons were read out by one of those who tabled their

17 resignations; however, they remained where they were, they continued to

18 work. I went to Srebrenica. They still stayed on at their work posts.

19 What happened and all the rest of it, I really can't say.

20 Q. Did any of these reasons include commanders not taking

21 responsibilities that, from the OS staff's point of view, they should have

22 taken in terms of crime?

23 MR. JONES: That's a very leading question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is a leading question.

25 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. We can show him the

1 document.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I know that you are trying to economise in

3 time but I would suggest that you go --

4 MR. JONES: If he is asked what the reasons were.

5 MS. SELLERS: Yes, and I asked him did they also include these

6 reasons. Might I please show him now at this point 255, Your Honour. I

7 was trying to lay at least the foundation.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but let's go straight to the issue and put a

9 direct question. If there is a document he may be able to be in a

10 position to confirm that document and that would speak for itself.

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you direct him straight away to the paragraph.

13 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

14 Q. Would you please look at the second paragraph under number 1,

15 Mr. Bogilovic and, in particular, the sentence that begins with, "We are

16 afraid of the troops."

17 In the English translation, it is on page 1, and that's what it

18 states.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please find out number 2 for the witness, and

20 all he needs to read is the few lines before that, maybe five six lines

21 before that.

22 MS. SELLERS: It would be in the second paragraph, after

23 "Statement of Reasons," and the second part of that paragraph.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Where he is pointing "placis" [B/C/S spoken], he

25 starts reading from there.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, have you found the place?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the English version also be placed on the

4 ELMO. Thank you.

5 MR. JONES: At the same time, if the witness does need to see the

6 whole document so he understands it in context, what the pargagraph is

7 about.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We will give him all the opportunity to read the

9 document, but for the time being -- I mean, he is getting confused even in

10 finding this sentence.

11 Do you see "placis"? Yes, four lines above number 2. Yes.

12 MS. SELLERS: It is in Sanctions.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you read that, please, and Madam Sellers will

14 be asking you a question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably I can. I will try to

16 explain. I will do my best. The reasons, what all this is about is that

17 on the 14th of October, these individuals were appointed and assigned, the

18 decision was signed by Mr. Avdic.

19 Now, in view of what I said earlier on, the dilemma was who the

20 superior was, who was subordinate to whom and who was superior to whom as

21 far as the staff of the War Presidency are concerned. And here precisely

22 it was finally asked that matters be clarified, that is to say what the

23 armed forces were supposed to undertake. What their job was.

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. And Mr. Bogilovic, you would agree that that is among the reasons

1 that this letter was prompted by those who wanted to resign? Yes or no,

2 Mr. Bogilovic?

3 A. I think that that's right, that that is what it means.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Could we now go to paragraph 4 of that same

5 letter. In the English version it is on ERN number that ends in 3063.

6 Mr. Bogilovic, would you read, just to yourself, and answer

7 whether you agree that what is stated in paragraph 4 is also -- was also

8 true at that time and is among the reasons for the resignation letter.

9 A. Now, whether that was their personal reason, I don't know. I

10 can't confirm that. But the truth is that they would come in, from the

11 field and from other municipalities, groups would come in and they had

12 weapons with them, and there was so many people there that it was

13 difficult to enforce law and order because the greatest problem was

14 accommodation, food, water and supplies of that kind. To provide all that

15 for a lot of people in a short -- a small area.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. I would now ask you to go to paragraph

17 6, the second paragraph on paragraph 6, and just confirm that that second

18 paragraph, that starts with, "We will not accept the guilt," was that also

19 among the reasons for the resignation letter?

20 A. Well, it is the signatories that are saying this, that they

21 accepted that, that they accepted working in the staff and their intention

22 was to help, of course; to take part, to participate in helping, giving

23 assistance. And that time will tell and the people will tell whether they

24 succeeded or not.

25 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you accept that as the reasons for the

1 resignation what was stated in that paragraph, second paragraph of number

2 6? Just simple yes or no, please.

3 A. Most probably, judging by their answer, they accept -- they think

4 that the people will be able to state their views in due course.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Listen, you are miles apart. He is reading the

6 first part of paragraph 6 --

7 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- while you are asking him on the second part of

9 paragraph 6.

10 Mr. Bogilovic, please, would you read the second part of paragraph

11 6.

12 I see that it's not his fault entirely, because the second part is

13 on a different page.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are distancing themselves here.

15 They don't want to take the blame upon themselves. Now, what blame I

16 really don't know what this is about, because they carried on working in

17 the posts and positions they were in.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. Mr. Bogilovic, as a result of this

20 resignation, was there a meeting that was called to discuss the

21 resignation letter that you are aware of?

22 A. I think that one of the reasons was that it was precisely because

23 of this, at least I think so -- actually, it was a little strange that

24 Mr. Oric asked, or ordered -- I don't know whether he asked or ordered --

25 that a meeting, a joint meeting be held and then this is what followed.

1 There was a joint meeting where this situation, this question was

2 resolved.

3 Q. Thank you. I would like to -- excuse me.

4 A. Because Mr. Oric, quite naturally, since he was there, these were

5 his workers, his staff, this part, and of course he asked this problem to

6 be solved and that law and order prevail.

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. I would like to have this document

8 removed from the witness and please show him P14.

9 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you please look at P14. And is this the

10 order request that you've just testified about, concerning the calling of

11 a meeting?

12 A. Yes, that's precisely it. However, this is the first time that I

13 see this piece of paper, just like all the others. And I never saw it

14 before.

15 Q. When you referred to the first time, does that mean the first time

16 when it was shown to you by the Office of the Prosecutor, not the first

17 time here in court?

18 A. Yes, that's it. This investigative process with Mr. Nasir.

19 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you attend that meeting that was called as --

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to go back to P84, please.

22 Page 43, under ERN number 5100. That's the termination of the ERN number.

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, if you would look at the document that has the ERN

24 number ending 5100, you will see a date, December 23rd, 1992. Joint

25 session. Armed forces. War Presidency. And you will see the numbers 1

1 and 2. And underneath that number, there is a name "Naser," and it says

2 "Naser opened the meeting. He read the decision about leaving the OS

3 staff."

4 Is that what you testified about in terms of Naser's participation

5 at the beginning of the meeting that was called as a result of the

6 resignation letter?

7 A. Yes, quite certainly. Because he asked the president and it was

8 quite normal, and his first sentence is precisely that, that's the reason.

9 Q. And do you remember whether he read out the letter that's a

10 similar or the same letter in terms of the contents that we just looked at

11 in the previous exhibit, the letter you just looked at from the OS staff?

12 A. Yes. There is a letter here. Whether he read it out, Hamed or

13 who. I think Hamed read it out. But he didn't read it out to the end.

14 Zulfo interrupted him from reading to the end. He said: We know the

15 reason and there is no need for you to read it all out.

16 Q. Was that letter the subject of discussion at the meeting that day?

17 A. Yes, yes. It was the discussion. That was discussed and other

18 matters were discussed too.

19 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you to go to page 44 in the

20 English version. It would be ERN number 5101.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we move on to

23 another area, it says here, on page 5100, "Hamed read out the decision to

24 step down from the staff." The English version contains something

25 different, because it says, "Hamed read out the reason for stepping down

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1 from the staff."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I noticed that, Madam Vidovic, and thank you for

3 pointing it out. As I take it from page 43, that I have and that we have,

4 I suppose yours is exactly the same, you see there, about one-third down

5 from the top of the page, you see 23rd December, 1992.

6 Right above that there is, indeed, Hamed read the decision about

7 leaving the OS staff. But then if you go down, after 23rd December, 1992,

8 and the -- you read the joint session of the SOS and the RP and then

9 agenda, and then number 1 and number 2, then the first sentence of the

10 minutes reads: "Naser opened the meeting. He read the decision about

11 leaving the OS staff."

12 So what - I don't know what the correct position is, whether what

13 we have on top of 23rd December refers to some other meeting, but I don't

14 think so. I think it refers to the same meeting. But I am not in a

15 position to say what happened that day, and I am not in a position to

16 decide which is the correct version of the two. But I wanted to point

17 this out for the record.

18 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Thank you.

19 Q. I just want to make it clear for the record, that, Mr. Bogilovic,

20 if you could just confirm, that the decision of leaving was read out in

21 the meeting that day.

22 A. The decision was read out and Salihovic Hamed read it out. He

23 didn't read it out to the end because Zulfo interrupted him and said don't

24 read it to the end. No need.

25 Q. Was Naser Oric present at the meeting?

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. Thank you. I would now ask you to go to page 44 of the English

3 version, ERN number 5101.

4 There is a part on the document that has small dashes,

5 approximately one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I would just like

6 you to go down to the fourth small dash. It looks like a list of items.

7 Mr. Bogilovic, my question -- thank you -- is that there it is written, at

8 least translated in the English: "Ensure premises for the prison on the

9 premises of the CK."

10 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, what is the premises of

11 the CK?

12 A. I think that this was proposed by Ramiz. Ramiz was a former

13 employee, or rather, used to work in the staff. And I think the CK

14 Red Cross, Crveni Krst, Red Cross.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might you indulge me one second,

17 please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when parts of a

20 document are being put to the witness for him to have a look at the

21 document, we can see here that in this is a sentence contained in what a

22 certain person was saying. So in future, parts of these -- this memo must

23 be shown in context. Not just the sentence out of context but the whole

24 context of the passage.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I respect what learned counsel is

1 saying. In a bit of my effort to be as efficient as possible with this

2 witness, but also as it is formulated in this document, it looks like

3 there were just a series of points that were being raised and they don't

4 seem necessarily to be attributed to people but points that appear to be

5 raised at the meeting. I just want to draw his attention to that one

6 being point being raised and ask him to comment on that point.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in fact you both tried in your own way. The

8 only thing is that there is nothing in the text here that indicates that

9 these were continuation of what Hamdija is supposed to have been saying

10 before that, and the witness -- I'm glad, actually, that the witness

11 pointed out that it was Ramiz, according to him, that pointed these issues

12 out.

13 So let's proceed. I don't think there is a problem.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you answered that you thought that the CK -- I'm

16 sorry, the transcript has just gone up -- the CK is Red Cross. Now where

17 would this Red Cross, to your knowledge, be located, if any place, in

18 Srebrenica? This premises?

19 A. The Red Cross and the premises of the sports equipment -- and

20 Batujo Saluvic [phoen] worked there -- those premises were behind the

21 municipal court.

22 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have a photo put on the screen

23 again. We've already seen this photo. I believe we have given it a P

24 number.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we did. It's P516, Ms. Sellers.

1 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

2 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you look at this photo again. Are the

3 premises of the Red Cross, do they appear in this photo?

4 A. I'm sorry, but I really can't see it on this photograph, the one

5 I'm looking at it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Usher, please give --

7 [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you can see it there.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Would you please --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness was shown photo bearing

13 exhibit number P516.

14 MS. SELLERS: Could I ask him to please place it on the ELMO.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's place it on the ELMO.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, would you look at the photo on the ELMO, to your

18 left, and indicate with the pointer where the Red Cross premises were.

19 And is that --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates the darker

21 part of the building which is at the right-hand side of the photo.

22 MS. SELLERS: Right. Could I also indicate it is on the ground --

23 it appears to be on the ground level where he is indicating.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And he is pointing to the ground floor. Yes.

25 Any further questions on this photo?

1 MS. SELLERS: No. Thank you very much. We can remove the photo.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Usher, for your assistance.

3 MS. SELLERS:

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to ask you, do you remember attending

5 a meeting of the War Presidency on the 29th of December, 1992?

6 A. I should first have to see the minutes, because I can't remember

7 exactly. I can't remember the date exactly.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would certainly like to lay a

9 foundation of what was discussed at that meeting. I'm wondering, might I

10 be able to go to P84 and show him the minutes, and ask him if he can

11 confirm it or not?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do, Ms. Sellers.

13 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. The ERN number that we'll be looking at

14 would be on page 5102. That's page 45 in my English translation.

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, I'm particularly looking at the minutes of 29,

16 December 1992. If you would look under number 1, the second paragraph it

17 says: "Avdic." Then the English translation, it would say, "After an

18 operation ends, people take vehicles as they please."

19 My question is, was there a problem with taking vehicles or other

20 items after operations that were discussed at the War Presidency meeting,

21 the joint War Presidency and OS staff meeting?

22 A. Of course. A discussion was held and it was asked that authorised

23 persons should confiscate all objects, including vehicles, which did not

24 belong to the people who appropriated them at the time. And it was even

25 ordered - I think I wrote out that order, because it came under my

1 competence - to the automotive society to record which vehicles had been

2 repaired so that we should know. Because in some cases the body was

3 damaged and not the motor. In other cases, it was the motor that was

4 damaged and not the body. So that they should keep records of all these

5 vehicles, what was done to them, the number of the motor, the number of

6 the chassis, the license plates, and so on.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogilovic, I would like to now go to the second

8 page, page 46, and there appears to be a part of those minutes under ERN

9 number 5103 where your name is located.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, there is a Becir, but --

11 MS. SELLERS: But he has testified he is the only Becir at the War

12 Presidency.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him confirm that that is the right conclusion to

14 reach.

15 MS. SELLERS: I would like to ask if Madam Vidovic could read the

16 part that begins with the name Becir, and then Dudic, the paragraph under

17 it.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Nobody knows who has which vehicle.

19 Naser knows what is in Potocari. If other units had taken vehicles, other

20 than Potocari, it would probably have been a different story. The staff

21 should have precise information on which vehicles are in what unit. The

22 vehicle that is now with Soson should be at the staff headquarters. It

23 would be better if the staff used it to transport units as needed.

24 "Dudic: What Becir said is true. I was not at the previous

25 meeting. I have a privately-owned truck. My unit (Tokolja Ivcici) has no

1 vehicle. They brought me a truck from Sase that was out of order. The

2 looted vehicles should not have passed through Srebrenica."

3 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

4 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you remember that exchange between yourself, the

5 other members of the War Presidency and with Dudic, which has been read

6 out that has been attributed to Dudic?

7 A. I do remember that there was a discussion about this and this

8 guided us to establish law and order and to register, make a record of all

9 of that.

10 Q. And did that assist in controlling the looted vehicles that might

11 have come about after an operation?

12 A. I don't know whether you can say that they were looted or not

13 because mostly they were vehicles belonging to Muslim owners. Because

14 prior to that they were all taken away, and now it had to be established

15 which vehicle belonged to what owner. And the needs for the hospital for

16 transporting the wounded and injured in the units. Because in this case,

17 for example, Soson took a vehicle, so he can't decide about the vehicle

18 himself. The vehicle should be taken away, confiscated from each

19 individual and turned them over to the units, if they needed it, or the

20 municipality, or rather, the original owner, the real owner of the vehicle

21 in question.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to object

24 because the witness did not say at any point that these vehicles had been

25 looted in an operation of any kind and that they were gained through an

1 operation. And then he explained it in fact, in actual fact.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, he did explain it.

3 MS. SELLERS: That's fine. But he had agreed with the prior

4 things that were read out from the meeting that he had understood that and

5 heard that. So if he answered the question in a way that was truthful,

6 that's what the Prosecution intends.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, please.

8 MS. SELLERS: Okay. We will not be using P84 now.

9 Q. I would like to ask Mr. Bogilovic, in March of 1993 were you asked

10 to become or to succeed Hamed Salihovic in his post as chief of

11 intelligence and security?

12 A. No. Not in March. In April.

13 Q. Sorry. In April 1993. Were you asked to succeed Hamed Salihovic

14 in his post?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who asked you to succeed him?

17 A. Following demilitarisation, in Srebrenica, the generally held view

18 was that peace was now there and that the war was over. Naturally,

19 certain individuals aspired to certain positions, certain jobs, and they

20 expressed desires -- for example, a colleague of mine expressed the desire

21 to replace me. I don't know what was behind this.

22 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, excuse me. Did you receive a request or an order

23 to assume the position formerly held by Hamed Salihovic in April of 1993?

24 A. Yes. I did receive it. I think it was on the 18th of April,

25 1993, specifically.

1 Q. And who made the request or gave the order?

2 A. The request was given to me by Masic.

3 Q. Did you receive a piece of paper indicating that request or order?

4 A. Yes. Yes. I did receive a piece of paper, saying that I was

5 hereby appointed chief of the armed forces, or something along these

6 lines.

7 Q. And who was the person whose name was written on the paper,

8 indicating that the paper might have come from them?

9 A. This was signed by Mr. Oric. I didn't even see Oric at the time.

10 I was revolted, so I asked to see, first, the president of the

11 municipality, my immediate superior, and after that I asked to see

12 Mr. Oric and had a discussion with him about this.

13 Q. So did you go see Mr. Oric in person?

14 A. Yes. I went to see him in a flat, but Oric did not reside in

15 Srebrenica at the time. He lived with his father, over in Potocari.

16 Q. In your conversation with Mr. Oric that day, was it clear to you

17 that he was the one who was requesting or ordering you or appointing you

18 to this position?

19 A. Based on our conversation, I was led to believe that he agreed

20 with this. I'm not sure how it was decided back at the staff, but based

21 on what he told me, when we actually met, he agreed with this.

22 Q. Now the piece of paper you're referring to, is that one of the

23 three pieces of paper that you testified about earlier where you had the

24 opportunity to see the name and signature of Naser Oric?

25 A. That is correct. That is one of the last ones, the third one.

1 Q. And because of the name being on the piece of paper and the

2 signature, is that why you went to see Naser Oric physically, in person?

3 A. I didn't really pay close attention, I just saw the signature

4 there, Mr. Oric's signature. You had to take a roundabout route, and we

5 didn't know exactly what would happen. There was a colleague of mine who

6 had also been a police officer before the war, like myself, and some other

7 friends, to the effect that he should succeed me because by now it was

8 peacetime and he should have the position. Something along these lines.

9 Of course, I did go eventually. But also due to my illness at the

10 time, the problem was eventually resolved. I first went to see my direct

11 superior, Mr. Avdic, and talked to him about this.

12 After I had seen Mr. Avdic, I went to see Mr. Oric. I talked with

13 him too. I told him what my situation was, that I was alone, no family.

14 That I was supposed to go and seek treatment for my leg, and that I would

15 like to leave. I had to undergo a number of medical examinations with a

16 Serb doctor in attendance. I was passed. I was allowed to board a

17 helicopter, and that's how I eventually left on the 25th of April 1993.

18 Q. So Mr. Bogilovic, then did you inform Mr. Oric that you would

19 not be able to accept that appointment? Yes or no, please.

20 A. Yes. I did inform him. We talked about that. We never even sat

21 down. We just talked. It was perfectly normal situation. He was in a

22 friend's flat, he came out, and we had a normal, decent conversation. I

23 saw that he was having a difficult time, and so was I. There were no

24 other friends for me to get in touch with at the time.

25 Q. All right. Mr. Bogilovic, since you were not going to take that

1 appointment, do you know who was appointed to that position in your stead?

2 A. I only found out later, but it was much later. I was already in

3 Tuzla. Some time had passed and I learned that I was succeeded by Nedzad.

4 Q. You say Nedzad. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber what

5 Nedzad's family name or last name is?

6 A. Bektic, Nedzad.

7 MS. SELLERS: I would like the witness to see Exhibit P80, please.

8 Q. If, Mr. Bogilovic, if you could be directed to ERN number 30 --

9 03055255, if the usher could assist us.

10 A. The document I'm looking at, the one that I have in front of me,

11 is not a document that I can comment on. It was written on the 19th of

12 September, 1993. I was far away by this time.

13 Q. Yes. Mr. Bogilovic, I would just like you to go to the part of

14 the document on the page number -- in the English version it is 8. It

15 ends in 2555. You will see in the bottom half of the page that there

16 appears the name, Becir Bogilovic. I would just like to direct your

17 attention to the sentence right above that.

18 For the record, I just want to say on the B/C/S version the ERN

19 number is 02075848.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Has the witness found the part that he

21 is being referred to, or not?

22 MS. SELLERS:

23 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, do you see where your name is mentioned? Then I

24 would like to ask you to look one sentence above that.

25 A. My name is mentioned right here, the previous page that this

1 gentleman has just taken away from me. My name is mentioned twice,

2 firstly the page that you removed.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... to this page

4 that you are looking at now. That's the one that you are being referred

5 to. Go on the previous line. You see "OD 16.4.1993 - 29.4.1993" and the

6 rest. That's the part we are referring you to.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. If I might read it into the record in English: "From 16 April,

9 1993 to 29 April, 1993, the chief of intelligence and security issues was

10 Becir Bogilovic, and from 29 April, 1993 that position was taken by Nedzad

11 Bektic."

12 Mr. Bogilovic, one small question: Is the date of 16 April a

13 correct date or not, from your memory?

14 A. As far as I remember the date should be the 18th of April, 1993.

15 And it was on the 25th of April, 1993 that I left for Tuzla.

16 Q. So other than the specific dates, does this accurately reflect

17 that you were asked to be the chief of intelligence and security and then

18 you were succeeded by Mr. Nedzad Bektic?

19 A. Most probably so. That's what I was asked to do. I didn't

20 accept. I went away to receive treatment, so someone else had to stand

21 in.

22 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that the document be taken

23 from the witness, and I would like to inform the Trial Chamber at this

24 point I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very good. Thank you, Ms. Sellers.

1 Madam Vidovic, can you start straight away or do you require some

2 time?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I can start right

4 away.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And you may remain seated, as we agreed.

6 Mr. Bogilovic, you are now going to be cross-examined by Madam

7 Vidovic, who is the lead counsel for Naser Oric.

8 Yes, Madam Vidovic. We will stop at quarter to two, as per

9 schedule.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

12 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I must apologise to you before I begin. We speak in the same

15 language, therefore I would like to ask you the following: Please make a

16 pause after my questions so that my words may be interpreted. I will try

17 to do the same.

18 Also, whenever possible, whenever you agree with me, just answer

19 briefly "yes" if you agree, or "no" if you disagree, because I do have

20 quite a number of questions for you.

21 Mr. Bogilovic, you confirmed that for almost 20 years you had

22 worked as a police officer in Srebrenica.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You are familiar with the Srebrenica area or the hamlets and

25 villages?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You knew the local population and were familiar with its ethnic

3 make-up while you worked with the police?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were familiar with what was going on in the area several years

6 prior to the war in the late 1980s, in 1991 and in 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that the area adjacent to

9 the Drina River known as Podravanja was very important for Serbia in the

10 late 1980s?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The local Serb population in the Podravanja area was under a

13 strong political influence from Serbia itself, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes. Especially after Milosevic's photographs had been all over

15 the place, because every single building and every single room had

16 Milosevic's photograph.

17 Q. I would just like to ask you, please, Mr. Bogilovic, try to keep

18 your answers as short as possible. Once we get to the documents I may ask

19 you for further comment.

20 Throughout those years - and I'm talking about 1991 and 1992 -

21 propaganda literature sent from Belgrade was infiltrated to the towns in

22 the Podravanja area containing ideas about Greater Serbia. Is that not a

23 fact?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Podravanja area was flooded with slogans, such as: "This is

1 Serbia," the four letters S carved in the shape of a cross, and messages

2 such as "Muslims, you balijas, get out of here, you Turks."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At the same time, misinformation was spread by the state security

5 service of Serbia about the threat to the Serbs living in Srebrenica and

6 Bratunac; is that not a fact?

7 A. Yes. That's what they said on the news.

8 Q. That question therefore, it's correct, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. An atmosphere of fear and tension was created and mistrust was

11 spread amongst the people in Podravanja?

12 A. Yes. Both sides expressed fear when they talked to people who

13 were free.

14 Q. Thank you. The Serbian media had an important role to play in all

15 of this, didn't they?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They were adamant that Serbs could only survive in a single state,

18 were they not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the same time, throughout 1990, 1991 and 1992, it was obvious

21 that the Serbs from Podravanja were preparing for war?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Bogilovic, that in villages such as

24 Redzici, Dubrave, in Fakovici, foundations were laid for pontoon bridges

25 to bring weaponry across the Drina into Bosnia, and that was well ahead of

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1 the war. Were you familiar with that?

2 A. I didn't know about the pontoon bridges but they used boats to

3 transport things across the river and I caught the perpetrators.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I will get to that. You worked as a chief

5 with the police prior to your retirement. You had a certain amount of

6 information on the activities of the political parties in the Srebrenica

7 area. The SDS was the leading Serb party, arming, in fact, the local

8 Serbian population at the time. Is that not a fact?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It relied on the JNA in this. Does your information confirm that?

11 A. I do have information that they transported weapons given to them

12 by the army. We found a large cache of weapons in Srebrenica once we got

13 in. Military weapons, automatic, semi-automatic rifles, and a variety of

14 explosive devices.

15 Q. These were weapons that came from the JNA, were they not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Bogilovic, that the local Serb

18 population of the area of Skelani, Fakovici, Kravica, Bjelovac and other

19 surrounding Serb villages met the war armed, uniformed, and equipped?

20 A. Yes, I do agree and all -- even in 1991, Mr. Karadzic forbid MUP

21 to enter Kravica.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. They even had machine-guns and deployed

23 artillery before the beginning of the war, in this area, did they not?

24 A. Yes. All the elevations which responded to the shelling were

25 taken over by the Serb forces.

1 Q. Thank you. The police of Srebrenica, as well as the police in

2 Bratunac, in the course of 1991 uncovered the weapons transports at night

3 by boat from Serbia. You mentioned that a moment ago.

4 A. Yes, that's the truth of it.

5 Q. The Muslims from Voljevica captured Kosta Neskovic from Bobrije

6 and handed him over to the police while he was caught in the act of

7 transporting weapons by boat from Serbia. Do you know anything about

8 that?

9 A. I arrested Kosta. Because his brother was a policeman too. He

10 was in my group. And I handed him over to the competent authorities, to

11 the inspectors who were in the Bratunac SUP.

12 Q. So it is true, then, that he was transporting weapons from Serbia

13 to the area of Bobrije, where he lived?

14 A. Yes. Because he asked me for the password at one o'clock at

15 night.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If he could be precise about this, the identity --

18 the identity of this person. Did I hear you well, did you say Kosta?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know his name and surname?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, his brother was Dragan

22 Kostic, and he was a policeman.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So would this person be Kosta -- what would his name

24 be? Do you know what his name and surname was? Do you know the family

25 name?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neskovic is the surname. His name

2 was Kosta and he had a brother Dragan Neskovic, who was a policeman in the

3 Bratunac SUP.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The Muslim policemen could not survive in Serb environments in

7 1991, could they?

8 A. In 1991, quite normally since there were growing tensions, then

9 they would leave, both sides would leave and transfer elsewhere.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you agree with me when I say that the

11 Serbs, the Serb population, and not the Muslims, blocked many roads in

12 Podrinje already in the month of March, 1992? Would that be correct?

13 A. I agree that there were roadblocks and that a doctor -

14 veterinarian, actually - was arrested at Zalazje. And others were

15 controlling this area, allegedly for their own safety and security.

16 Q. It is true, is it not, that other roads to other communication

17 lines in Podrinje, in March 1992, were also blocked off by the Serbs. The

18 main roads, in fact.

19 A. Well, they started the blockades. They set up the first

20 blockades. That's natural, but the other blockade came when they entered,

21 or rather -- in 1991 in the place call Kravica, when they shot at a

22 vehicle, where there were four persons there, two killed, two seriously

23 wounded. That's when tensions came to a head.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. The Serbs also set up blockades at

25 other strategically important points, such as the Podravanja mine, the

1 Sase mine, and similar features. Is that right?

2 A. As far as the Podravanja mine is concerned, there was also a

3 problem as to who the mine belonged to. But they took all the machines,

4 the dumpers and all the other vehicles so the workers had to leave.

5 Finally, they -- and they didn't go to work any more. Whereas the mine

6 actually belonged to the Srebrenica municipality.

7 Q. When you say the workers, the workers had to leave their jobs,

8 their work, you mean the Muslim workers, do you not?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, you heard and came across information according

11 to which there were Serb camps for the training of the local Serb

12 inhabitants. Is that right? For military training, for the military

13 training of the local Serb inhabitants.

14 A. The information I had was that this was done regularly and many of

15 them were at Han Pijesak whereas a lesser number, about 300 soldiers, were

16 trained at Perucac in Bajina Basta.

17 Q. Did you also hear of the existence of a camp of that kind in

18 Skelani and in Vranesevici?

19 A. No, I did not hear about that.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, you said that on the 12th of April, 1992, you were

21 in Skelani.

22 A. Yes, I was there, yes.

23 Q. Is it true and correct that you saw armed soldiers there?

24 A. Yes, that's the truth of it. They were armed. They were on the

25 bridge, between -- separating Serbia from Bosnia.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogilovic. You saw them wearing camouflage

2 uniforms and well armed in Skelani on that particular bridge; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes. Wearing camouflage and the olive-green type uniforms that

5 the former JNA used to wear.

6 Q. Thank you. Those were local Serbs from Skelani, were they not?

7 A. I didn't recognise any of them because I had to look in front of

8 me and it was getting dark. I didn't want anybody to recognise me, so

9 that I just passed by as quickly as possible, looking in front of me. I

10 didn't stop to look around.

11 Q. Right. Do you agree with me that on that particular day in

12 Skelani there were many people in uniforms?

13 A. I saw those particular people up on the bridge. When I passed

14 across the bridge and entered Bosnia, two policemen stopped me.

15 Q. I will come to that in due course. Thank you.

16 A. As I was going, I would come across people who were in uniform and

17 armed.

18 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, what you saw, those people that you saw in Skelani,

19 up on the bridge there, you referred to them as an army, soldiers, right,

20 and not a village watch?

21 A. No, it was the army; soldiers.

22 Q. On that day, you saw Serb artillery positions, did you not?

23 A. Artillery positions? Where the army was, where the soldiers were,

24 they had weapons and it was directed across the bridge towards Bosnia.

25 But I saw weapons, yes; rifles, not any other pieces.

1 Q. Moving from Skelani to the Dobrak Muslim village that you

2 described to the investigators, did you happen to see any machine-gun

3 nests?

4 A. Yes. At the exit to the Kalinjanici village, and it borders on

5 the Muslim village of Dobrak blow the mosque there, that's where there was

6 a machine-gun positioned and it was targeted on the village of Dobrak.

7 Q. The village of Dobrak is a Muslim village, is it not?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. So it was a Serb machine-gun nest; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The Muslim village of Dobrak already on that day, the 12th of

12 April, 1992, when you arrived, was already shelled; is that right?

13 A. When I arrived in the village, it hadn't been -- it wasn't --

14 there was no shelling but there were no people.

15 Q. Did you see the traces of shelling then?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. You heard that -- before you left Skelani, or perhaps later on in

18 talking to someone -- did you hear of Muslim houses in Skelani having been

19 attacked?

20 A. I heard about that, the next day in the morning. Or rather on the

21 12th. Jovo Muhajlovic in Bajina Basta, when I happened to meet him - and

22 we knew each other well - I asked him to give me a car for me to drive to

23 Srebrenica in, and he said, "Don't be silly, it's wartime and I'm giving

24 you a car."

25 Q. Did he happen to mention that Muslim houses in Skelani had already

1 been attacked?

2 A. All he mentioned was that the butchers had prepared to attack

3 them.

4 Q. Afterwards, did you learn that the Mehic [phoen] family was

5 attacked and their houses?

6 A. Yes, the next day in the morning, because Sejdo said that -- and

7 he was a salesman, he said that Mesari was attacked that night and that

8 the mother had brought in some weapons to the police station and they had

9 escaped to the forest.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Vidovic, because I need to

11 understand this. I see here that he said, "All he mentioned was that the

12 butchers attacked them."

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter seeks clarification: Mesari, is it

14 a place or people?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew three brothers, the Mehic

16 family. They were rich. They had a butcher's shop. And one of them was

17 a teacher at the school. I think he was the headmaster, actually.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But this makes it even more confounded.

19 Because if it is the Mehic family that were butchers, we need to explain a

20 little bit how in one line we have he mentioned that all -- that the

21 butchers had prepared the attack, to attack them. And then it seems that

22 the Mehic family was attacked in the houses. So I need an explanation.

23 What are we talking about?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mihajlovic, Jovo Mihajlovic,

25 told me that the butchers had prepared to attack them, whereas it was the

1 other way around.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, all right. Okay. I understand now. Yes,

3 Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more clarification, Mr. Bogilovic.

6 Mr. Mihajlovic was a Serb, right? And Mr. Mehic, the Mehics, were

7 Muslims; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. You mentioned a meeting with Mr. Jokic and some other people,

10 Mr. Jokic was a Serb. Now, was he armed with an automatic weapon when you

11 came across him?

12 A. If it was the same Jokic of the 12th, I didn't see anybody on the

13 12th, I didn't meet anybody on the 12th. So which Jokic do you mean?

14 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you mentioned a meeting

15 with a certain person by the name of Jokic. I'm not linking it to the

16 12th of April at all.

17 A. I did have a meeting with a policeman who used to be a policeman

18 in Srebrenica, and then I carried on my way and he arrested me, and his

19 name was Slavko. I don't know what his surname was. And on the other

20 side of the road, somebody asked, Who's that? and he said, I don't know,

21 and the man came up to us, the side we were at, and where I jumped in -- I

22 jumped into a crevice and --

23 Q. Those people that you met, were they armed? And did they have

24 automatic weapons?

25 A. Yes, automatic rifles.

1 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the investigators and when you

2 testified on Friday, you said that you were stopped and searched by people

3 in Bratunac on the 17th of April, 1992. They also had camouflage uniforms

4 and were armed, were they not?

5 A. Yes, on that day the units stormed -- what was the name? The

6 Arkan's men, Dragan's men, I don't know. I was in Bratunac, looking for

7 food for my chickens and I was stopped at the DNC and they searched me.

8 And they searched me and my vehicle.

9 Q. The people who stopped you, the men who stopped and searched you

10 in the Serbian village of Viogoro, they were also wearing uniforms and

11 were armed. Is that right?

12 A. Yes. Four of them wore uniforms and were armed and they did carry

13 out a search. I shouted at them. I said: What are you doing? Why are

14 you doing that? It was very cold that day.

15 Q. Thank you, very much Mr. Bogilovic. They were local Serbs,

16 inhabitants of the Viogoro village; is that right?

17 A. Yes. And they knew me and I knew them.

18 Q. Generally speaking, you saw quite a few people in Serbian villages

19 in the Srebrenica area around the 12th of April; is that right? And it is

20 true, is it not, that the Serb population already then was armed, in

21 uniform, and had their commands; is that right?

22 A. On the 10th of April, Skelani separated into a municipality of

23 their own. They separated from the Srebrenica municipality. The road

24 leading towards Srebrenica, I was checked on two places and on the lake at

25 Jezero there was the Serb army, Serb soldiers were in the school building.

1 Q. Thank you. So they had their positions, their lines, their

2 checkpoints already then, already at that time?

3 A. On the 12th of April, yes, they did, at Jezero. They had a

4 barracks in the school.

5 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, it is true, is it not, that from that day, the 12th

6 of April 1992 onwards, there was ethnic cleansing of Muslim villages in

7 Podrinje?

8 A. Yes. Especially, I think, on the 14th when they killed in the

9 Jezero area.

10 MS. SELLERS: I really think the witness should be asked to see

11 what he means by this term "ethnic cleansing." I do not see any of the

12 questioning up until this time period has led to that. We talked about --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, have you heard of something referred to as "ethnic

16 cleansing"?

17 A. As for cleansing, both sides were fleeing. Serbs went to Serbia

18 and Muslims went towards Tuzla, Sarajevo, and other places. So much for

19 Srebrenica.

20 Q. Mr. Bogilovic, did you hear that ethnic cleansing was carried out

21 of the Muslim population in April and May in the Podrinje area?

22 A. Yes. It's true. It's absolutely true. There were mass arrests,

23 mass killings in Voljevica, Suha and Glogovo, and these places were burned

24 down.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll get to that. We are speaking about now. It's

1 only a continuation of what started occurring in Zvornik and Bijeljina

2 earlier, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In early May 1992, persecutions started of Muslims from the entire

5 Skelani area, didn't they?

6 A. Yes. And they were sent off to Macedonia.

7 Q. It's true, isn't it, that on the 7th of May alone, in one place in

8 Skelani, 17 persons were shot?

9 A. I am not familiar with the exact figure, but, yes, people were

10 killed.

11 Q. On the 8th of May, 1992, many Muslim villages were burned, or

12 parts of villages that were inhabited by Muslims around Skelani. Isn't

13 that a fact?

14 A. I can't confirm this. I know there was -- there was an operation

15 around Skelani, Dayegosta, and in Bratunac municipality.

16 Q. It's true, isn't it, that many thousands of people were expelled

17 and these people continued to live in the nearby woods; is that not a

18 fact?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Throughout the war, Milici was a Serb stronghold; isn't that true?

21 A. Yes. Prior to and during the war.

22 Q. People were also expelled in the Muslim villages facing Milici and

23 Vlasenica, weren't they?

24 A. Yes. Both sides of Milici, facing Vlasenica and facing the

25 bauxite mine, the Srebrenica area.

1 Q. In late April, May, and June 1992, the Serbs carried out ethnic

2 cleansing in the Muslim villages of Djile, Nurici, Besici, Stedra [phoen],

3 Biskovic [phoen], Jangici [phoen], Turici, Sabici [phoen], Gradina

4 [phoen]. Are you aware of that?

5 A. Yes, I am full well. And Djile at the end too.

6 Q. Yes. That was the first village I mentioned, in actual fact.

7 Mr. Bogilovic, it's true, isn't it, that on the 16th of May, 1992, in

8 Zaklopaca alone a police unit of the Republika Srpska from Vlasenica and

9 Milici and a unit of the army of the Republika Srpska committed an

10 atrocious crime against the civilian population, killing at least sixty

11 persons, many of them women and children.

12 A. Yes. The refugees who fled told us about this. They came to the

13 woods and they told us.

14 Q. Zaklopaca is a village along the approach road to Milici, isn't

15 it?

16 A. It's actually between Milici and Vlasenica.

17 Q. Thank you. Does your information confirm, or what you were told

18 by the refugees, that the Vlasenica and Milici police units led by the

19 former pre-war policeman Rade Bjelanovic had an important role to play in

20 these events?

21 A. I knew Rade Bjelanovic as chief. I know that he was an

22 administrator first and then was appointed chief. Whether he was in fact

23 in command is not something that I can say.

24 Q. It's also true, isn't it, that Muslims were expelled from the area

25 around Fakovici and Ratkovici, weren't they? The population was expelled

1 and the Muslim villages of Abdulici, Zapolje, and Orlica were burned down,

2 as well as the Muslim section of Tegari. Are you aware of that?

3 A. Yes. After these villages, Voljevica, Glogovo, and others, they

4 started taking villages one by one in a succession in order to free the

5 Serbian land, as they said.

6 Q. You do know then that a crime was committed in Glogovo, Hrance

7 [phoen], Suha, Borkovcini [phoen], Haljevici [phoen], but many civilians

8 were in fact killed in those locations?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that's what the survivors told us and those who managed

10 to escape the firing squad, because some people were shot too.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going too fast. [Microphone not activated]?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going too fast, the both of you, and you are

14 not allowing an interval as well, and that is making it difficult for

15 everyone. I see that even the transcript is suffering, apart from the

16 interpreters that really have to follow you at a speed. That's number 1.

17 Secondly, I would suggest that you try to wind up at the earliest

18 possibility, because I wouldn't like to go beyond the scheduled time

19 because of everyone here, interpreters, technicians and everything.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I only

21 have two or three brief questions before I finalise for the day.

22 Q. You mentioned on Friday, sir, that Hamed Alic survived the firing

23 squad when civilians were shot in Borkovac [phoen]; isn't that a fact?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also confirmed that the population of Voljevici, Zalazje, and

1 Bilaca was expelled.

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: Your Honours, this may be a convenient time to stop.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for your cooperation, as usual, Madam

5 Vidovic. We will stop here for today and we will resume tomorrow morning

6 at 9 o'clock. I don't know which courtroom. I don't think it is this

7 courtroom, no. If I remember well, it is not this courtroom, but I don't

8 remember.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, if I might, I would just like to hand

10 up video 517. I believe up until this time period it hadn't been handed

11 up. I would like to let the Defence know it is available, and also for

12 the registrar.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. We will resume

14 tomorrow morning. I thank you, Mr. Bogilovic.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43.p.m., to

16 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of March,

17 2005 at 9.00 a.m.

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