Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7106

1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please be seated. Madam Registrar --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

6 [The accused entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

8 please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

10 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

12 Mr. Oric, once more, I would like to know whether even today you

13 can follow the proceedings in your own language.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Yes,

15 I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

17 Please sit down. Good afternoon to you. Appearances for the

18 Prosecution.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and good afternoon to

20 the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution,

21 together with co-counsels, Mr. Jose Doria and Ms. Joanne Richardson, and

22 our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good afternoon to you

24 and your team.

25 Appearances for Naser Oric.

Page 7107

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am

2 Vasvija Vidovic, with Mr. John Jones, I represent the Defence of Mr. Naser

3 Oric. With us there also are legal assistant, Adisa Mehic and our case

4 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam Vidovic and good

6 afternoon to you and your team.

7 Preliminaries, I think I have one matter to raise myself, on

8 behalf of the Bench of course. You have filed, Mr. Wubben, an application

9 -- sorry I call it an application, for the issuance of subpoena ad

10 testificandum.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, I did.

12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to go into private session on

14 this.

15 All I want to know for the time being, I'm not going to mention

16 any witnesses, et cetera, you know, which witness we are referring to,

17 whether there is -- whether we are to expect a response from the Defence.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is our position in

19 this case, as in the case so far, when the -- that we will not submit any

20 submissions now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Things being like that, then we have

22 already discussed amongst ourselves, and we are in a position to hand down

23 the decision, which will be handed down this afternoon.

24 MR. WUBBEN: I thank, Your Honours. We're much obliged because

25 we want to proceed on this.

Page 7108

1 JUDGE AGIUS: As you know, Mr. Wubben, the Trial Chamber is

2 always doing its best to meet its commitments without any undue delay, and

3 this is one further instance.

4 The other thing is this. Much to my surprise, and also in the

5 few minutes we've had to discuss, I can tell you also the surprise of my

6 two colleagues, we have been informed that you have today decided to drop

7 expert witness, Mr. Turle or Colonel Turle. Of course, we cannot interfere

8 with your discretion to do that, neither can the Defence. If you have

9 decided to withdraw this witness, it's your business. But the thing is

10 this: You owe us at least an explanation as to how this is going to affect

11 the schedule, the work schedule, in the near and in the -- in the near and

12 in the distant future, which, in turn, brings me to perhaps the most

13 important part of the matter that I wanted to raise, and that is, we have

14 waited -- we waited the entire -- the whole of last week to have sort of a

15 projection of the rest of the case of the Prosecution, and we agreed,

16 together with -- you were not here last week -- we agreed with Mr. Di Fazio

17 and Madam Sellers, that we will, albeit reluctantly, await until the middle

18 of this week. We are almost there.

19 We will not wait beyond Wednesday, Mr. Wubben. That's tomorrow.

20 So, we will need to know, at the latest tomorrow, what the projection of

21 the rest of the case of the Prosecution is, or looks like. That's number

22 1.

23 Now, let's go through these two points one by one. You have

24 decided to withdraw this witness, this expert witness. All right. How is

25 it going to affect the rest of the case, or the immediate -- he was

Page 7109

1 supposed to come between the 19th and the 22nd, to be called between the

2 19th and 22nd of April, of this month.

3 MR. WUBBEN: 18th to 22nd.


5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. In that respect --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 18 to 21st anyway. It was something like that.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Either 18th to 21st or 19th to 22nd. 18th to 21st,

9 actually.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Upon deciding the first, what I did was to inform

11 Defence counsel, then the legal officer. And including that also, to try

12 to find out opportunities to modify, reschedule for the next week. We

13 tried to do so, but as this is a latest development based upon the overall

14 assessment of the developments in the evidence in our case so far, we can

15 only try to do from the -- this afternoon, to do our best in that respect.

16 And we will, of course, update you and the Defence, because for the Defence

17 it will mean that whenever there is a new witness coming in, anticipated in

18 the later stage, then the Defence should have time enough to prepare.

19 These kinds of circumstances I will anticipate and consider as well in

20 order to update you and Defence.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's as if we are speaking two different languages,

22 Mr. Wubben. Let me make myself clear.

23 Today, which is the 12th, we are starting with the testimony of

24 Milosava Nikolic.

25 Now, Ms. Richardson, how long do you think you will be examining

Page 7110

1 this witness in-chief?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, for the examination-in-chief, I

3 would hope to end by this session, hopefully, depending on how slowly this

4 witness -- how we proceed. She can't sit for long periods of time, but she

5 has assured me that she will endure at least an hour and a half sitting.

6 So I am hoping that by the end of today's session to complete my

7 examination-in-chief, and of course the Defence will have tomorrow. The

8 following witness is the Petrovic --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. How long is that going to --

10 MS. RICHARDSON: That's another crime-based witness and that

11 witness will be taken by Ms. Sellers, and we anticipate that he will be

12 completed by Friday, no later than Friday.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: I can assure you of that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, which brings us to the following week, which

16 is next week.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, with respect to --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which would have started with precisely Colonel

19 Turle.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, and we understand that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm saying, there is less than a week.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, we completely understand what

23 the Bench is trying to convey.

24 What we are in the process of doing at the moment is contacting

25 witnesses that were scheduled to come in later on and to see if one of

Page 7111

1 those witnesses can be -- we can sort of get them here sooner so we can

2 have a witness for the Trial Chamber starting either Tuesday or Wednesday,

3 and that's what we're in the process -- at this time we're doing at the

4 moment, contacting these individuals to see who can come in on such short

5 notice.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But that means we are losing another day, Monday.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, what I can also assure the Court is that

8 we have been working vigorously to try and assess how much longer our case

9 will continue, and what we have so far is that, not only have we dropped

10 our expert witness, but there might be one or two other witnesses that we

11 may decide not to call and so we will not lose time. Indeed, we may very

12 well meet the Court's dead line and end our case by the end of May.

13 So the fact that we are not calling this witness and we are

14 losing time, it will not impact on how much longer --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so, Ms. Richardson.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. We have made very, very

17 careful calculated assessment of the time and taken into consideration what

18 Your Honour has stated previously, last week, to Mr. Di Fazio.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, may I confirm, because that addressed

20 the second issue that you anticipated to trigger, and that will be, indeed,

21 the outcome of an assessment of the scheduling and the witness projected.

22 And, as such, we have new developments and some of the developments might

23 turn out and clarify to us no earlier than Wednesday, but we can, indeed --

24 and I can confirm what Ms. Richardson stated to the court, I can confirm

25 that these three days will not be anticipated as damaging the schedule.

Page 7112

1 And we are trying to make that huge step, as you requested to the Defence

2 team last Friday.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is, it's still -- in my mind, you know,

4 I mean, and I'm speaking out of experience now and out of no other

5 consideration, I can assure you, but today is Tuesday. I am getting the

6 impression that you still haven't got a clear indication as to who could

7 start giving evidence Tuesday, today week.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Of course not at this moment; otherwise, I would

9 have informed you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which takes us to Wednesday. That's tomorrow.

11 Which would mean you have to make arrangements to get this person to come

12 over, and that would take us probably Friday, knowing when witnesses come

13 and go, which would mean proofing on Saturday and on Sunday and of course

14 Monday, because already we've had the message sent loud and clear that

15 Monday will be needed by you. And what about the Defence? They are

16 probably not going to know until Wednesday, at least, minimum Wednesday, if

17 not Thursday, which witness they will have next in line.

18 This is what worries me, you know. I mean, we've tried to work

19 with you, treating you with silk gloves all along, all along, both the

20 Prosecution and Defence. But as we approach the deadline that needs to be

21 fixed for a determination of your case, and the commencement of the case of

22 the Defence, if we get to that stage, we can't allow a situation to

23 fluctuate from one day to the other like this, you know. I mean, it's --

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- it's very precarious.

Page 7113

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, we are very much aware of

2 the due process concerns, and what we are doing at this point, as we speak,

3 other members of the team are contacting witnesses who are supposed to

4 follow Colonel Turle, and so the Defence will not be, we're hoping, too

5 inconvenienced by having to be prepared for the next two witnesses who are

6 supposed to come the following weeks. So we're trying to keep within the

7 schedule, Your Honour, and not take it so far out that the process will be

8 impacted upon the Defence.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Anyway, tomorrow is Wednesday and we

10 will need to hear more from you, Mr. Wubben particularly, as to how you are

11 planning the schedule for the rest of your case. And I know that you will

12 cooperate.

13 MR. WUBBEN: I will, Your Honour, and I will give you some

14 information.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not let you not, either.

16 Yes, Mr. Jones, sorry, I did not ask you to intervene.

17 MR. JONES: Obviously, there is an ongoing process, but I thought

18 to give you our brief reaction.


20 MR. JONES: Obviously, in terms of dropping a witness, that in

21 itself doesn't create any grave problem, apart from I personally regret the

22 loss of a great number of hours during this unseasonally fine weather which

23 we have been having in The Hague preparing for a witness that won't come.

24 But that obviously in itself isn't the issue.

25 There are really three concerns. One is whether there's going to

Page 7114

1 be a new military expert that the Prosecution is going to bring forward or

2 whether they're simply not going to call one. That's of concern because,

3 firstly, the case has been presented according to a certain theory. We've

4 reacted to that theory in accordance with what we believe the expert

5 testimony would be. We've instructed our own expert, who has prepared a

6 report, which reacts to the Prosecution's report. So, of course, if there

7 is a new expert, if there are new theories of the case which the

8 Prosecution is presenting, it has implications for how we would have

9 presented our case. It has implications for briefing our expert. Again,

10 whether we'll get funding for that. That's one host issue which I just

11 wish to flag up, lest it be thought that a new expert may simply be

12 substituted without detriment to us.

13 The second issue is, the witness who will come next week, and I

14 think Your Honour has perfectly appreciated the difficulty to us if all of

15 a sudden, particularly an important witness, is going to come forward. But

16 the Prosecution, I understand, also appreciates that we need to know as

17 soon as possible.

18 But the third concern is just this: That the Prosecution has

19 indicated that, despite witnesses being dropped, that the Prosecution case

20 will nonetheless probably be finish on time. But I do feel bound to point

21 out that we've also been notified the Prosecution intends to bring new

22 witnesses. We were notified of four already. And if, at this stage, the

23 Prosecution is having a rethink of its whole case and it's going to drop

24 witnesses and apply to add new ones, it's not necessarily a pure numbers

25 exercise that, Well, you had ten witnesses and here are ten other

Page 7115

1 witnesses.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course it's not a pure numbers exercise.

3 MR. JONES: Yes. All of this remains to be seen, but I just

4 wanted to mention our concerns at this stage.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And I anticipate, on the basis of what happened in

6 other cases before this Tribunal, when the Prosecution asked for the

7 production of fresh evidence at the late stage in its case and before its

8 conclusion, the conclusion of its case, in many cases it hasn't been easy

9 to decide. So, I'm in no way indicating that it's going to be plain

10 sailing, because the system, how it works here, with the pre-trial brief

11 and the way the parties are expected to administer a case, their respective

12 case, makes it important or imperative on the Trial Chamber to be careful

13 in granting such requests. Also there is -- I'm making myself very clear,

14 because we, of course, don't know what your request as regards fresh

15 evidence is going to be. We still have to see the motion and also see what

16 the grounds for your application will be.

17 But also, you need to keep in mind that if you are going to

18 combine your application with a declaration that you are dropping some

19 witnesses, with the consequence that, therefore, the case will not last

20 longer, if you combine the two together. Please do keep in mind that if

21 ultimately we decide not to grant the motion, we will not allow you then to

22 go back on your declaration of withdrawal of witnesses.

23 So, in other words we are not hiding anything from you. We are

24 dealing with you in the most transparent manner. If you combine the two,

25 you will have to accept the consequences should we decide not to grant the

Page 7116

1 motion. We are not saying of course that we will not grant the motion,

2 especially not knowing what the position taken by the Defence will be, and

3 not knowing what the reasons for your applications will be, and how much

4 this will be in the interest of justice to grant. Obviously, I mean, it's

5 all in a vacuum. But we will see. But I want you to be aware of that.

6 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I am aware, and we understand.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. So let's bring in the witness. Let's go

8 into private session for a while, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7117

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Madam Nikolic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Tribunal, I would like to welcome

12 you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And before I continue, I want to make sure, first,

15 that you are comfortable in that chair and, secondly, that you are

16 receiving interpretation in your own language. Are you comfortable in that

17 chair?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Perhaps, usher, if she moves -- if she

20 is moved a little bit further -- or if you move -- I don't know. Anyway,

21 leave it for the time being.

22 Are you receiving interpretation in your own language, of what is

23 being said in English?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam, if at any time there is a

Page 7118

1 problem with the interpretation, tell us straight away and we will make

2 sure that it is rectified before we continue.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at me, I am the Presiding Judge in this

5 trial, which has been instituted against Naser Oric. My name is Carmel

6 Agius and I come from the island of Malta. To my right I have Judge Hans

7 Henrik Brydensholt, from the Kingdom of Denmark, and to my left I have and

8 Judge Albin Eser from Germany.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, you are soon going to start giving evidence,

11 and our Rules require that before you do so, you enter a solemn

12 declaration, something like an oath, in the sense that in the course of

13 your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing

14 but the truth.

15 In order to help you make this declaration, I am going to ask you

16 to remain seated where you are. You don't need to stand up. And I am

17 going to dictate the declaration to you. Each time I dictate a part of it,

18 please repeat it after me. And then --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- when you have concluded, that will be your

21 solemn declaration. I am going to start now. I, Milosava Nikolic --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please repeat what I am saying.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milosava Nikolic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Solemnly declare.

Page 7119

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Solemnly declare.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That I will speak the truth.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will tell the truth about

4 everything I know, as I always have.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole truth. Don't add any words. Just repeat

6 my words. The whole truth.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And nothing but the truth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, nothing but the truth,

10 yes.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Nikolic. I will explain to you,

14 very briefly, the procedure.

15 You are now going to be asked a few questions by Madam

16 Richardson. You've met Madam Richardson and she is a member on the

17 Prosecution team in this case. When she is finished, you will then be

18 asked some questions by Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel in the Defence of

19 Naser Oric.

20 I want to make sure that during your testimony you are feeling

21 comfortable all the time. So if, at any time, you're not feeling well, or

22 you would like a break, please do not hesitate to tell us straight away and

23 we will --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, okay.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and we will have a break immediately. You've

Page 7120

1 got some water there in case you are thirsty, and Madam Usher will be

2 assisting you during the course of your testimony.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

4 [Trial Chamber confers with legal officer and

5 usher]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me say it and then it can be translated to her.

7 Madam --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, I think you will be sitting more comfortable

10 if you moved back a little bit in your chair, so that you can rest your

11 back, all right? And don't be afraid of those two microphones that you

12 have in front of you, they have harmed nobody as yet.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So, I think that the ELMO, Madam Usher, is in the

15 way of Ms. Richardson, so it's in the way, definitely. I think we will

16 need to move it. All right. That's fine. Yes, madam Richardson.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by Ms. Richardson:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Nikolic.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. Can you state your full name for the Trial Chamber.

22 A. Milosava Nikolic.

23 Q. Can you please confirm, with a yes the following questions that I

24 am about to ask you. So if you listen --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: With a yes or no.

Page 7121

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. With a yes or no. Were you born on June 27th, 1933?

3 A. Yes, I was. Yes, I was born.

4 Q. And you are of Serb ethnicity?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. And you are married to Milorad Nikolic?

7 A. Yes, I am.

8 Q. And you have three children?

9 A. We have three children.

10 Q. And you live in a hamlet of Popovici?

11 A. Yes, we do.

12 Q. Which is the village of Opravdici?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this is the municipality of Bratunac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The hamlet of Popovici consists of approximately 25 houses; is

17 this correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. And my question, with respect to the number of houses, relates to

20 the period of time, 1992 to January of 1993. Were there approximately 25

21 houses during that time?

22 A. Yes. At the time there were exactly 25 houses.

23 Q. And there are approximately 100 or so persons living in your

24 hamlet?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7122

1 Q. Now, your husband, Milorad, and yourself, you farmed for a

2 living? And that you --

3 A. Yes, and we still farm.

4 Q. And you also have livestock, including sheep?

5 A. Yes, we did have.

6 Q. Now, I would like to bring your attention to 1992, just before

7 1993. So what I would like to ask is whether or not you were aware that

8 there was a conflict in Bosnia that began in 1992?

9 A. I knew -- I knew that it came.

10 Q. All right. I would like to ask you about the location of

11 Popovici.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: And, Your Honour, I have maps for everyone in

13 the courtroom.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richardson.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the villagers went Zelinje.


17 Q. All right. I haven't asked anything yet. I'm handing out maps

18 for the members of the Defence and the judges. So if you will bear with us

19 for a moment so everyone can see where your village and hamlet is located.

20 Now, the village of -- now, your village, your hamlet in fact, Popovici, is

21 located on a hill; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what is the closest Muslim village?

24 A. Glogova.

25 Q. And approximately how far is Glogova from Popovici, by foot?

Page 7123

1 A. Maybe an hour.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that the

3 usher put this map on the ELMO. I'm not going to ask the witness to look

4 at it. She can't read and will not be of assistance, but just in case we

5 need to at some point for demonstrative purposes only, of course.

6 Q. Ms. Nikolic, with respect to Glogova, were you aware that any

7 type of conflict had taken place in Glogova?

8 A. Of course.

9 Q. And when was this conflict? Do you remember?

10 A. In 1993. This is when it happened.

11 Q. All right. Well, let me bring your attention to January of 1993.

12 Do you recall that particular month and year?

13 A. What I know, I will remember. What I don't know, I can't

14 remember.

15 Q. All right. Well, on the 7th of January, 1993, did anything

16 happen in the neighbouring village? Not in your village, but in any of the

17 neighbouring villages?

18 A. In Mandici, Mandici and Kravica burned down on the 7th. Mandici

19 and Kravica burned down and all the livestock was driven away from Mandici,

20 in the evening, at 5.00. And they started cursing us and swearing at us,

21 and they told us that they would come back for us on the following day.

22 That was on the 7th.

23 Q. How is it that you were able to see -- well, I will rephrase that

24 question. Were you able to see the village of Mandici from your village of

25 Popovici?

Page 7124

1 A. Of course. Of course we could see it. It's close. We could see

2 each other. We could call out to each other.

3 Q. Is Mandici also located on a hill?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you said the houses -- I will rephrase. What were you able

6 to see from your village?

7 A. We could see fire. We could see houses ablaze and we could see

8 livestock being driven away, and the villagers of Mandici fled to our

9 village.

10 Q. Could you see who was driving the livestock away?

11 A. I don't know. Troops came by and they set houses on fire and

12 drove away the cattle. I don't know what troops they were.

13 Q. Do you know what ethnicity the -- the ethnicity of the troops?

14 Were they Serb or Muslim?

15 A. I don't know what their ethnicity was.

16 Q. Is Mandici a Serb village?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said the people from Mandici came to your village. Did they

19 say anything to you about what had happened in their village?

20 A. They came to our village, and they were watching from our village

21 their houses burning and their livestock being driven away.

22 Q. And you testified that something had been said to you about

23 tomorrow. Could you just repeat for the Trial Chamber what it was that you

24 heard said about your village.

25 A. What was said for our village? As they were driving the cattle

Page 7125

1 away, the cattle from Mandici, when they burned Mandici, then they said,

2 We'll fuck your Serbian mother. We will come back for you tomorrow. And

3 they did. They came back for us on the 8th of January.

4 Q. Before we go to the 8th of January, were you able to see if there

5 were any other villages, other than Mandici, burning?

6 A. I couldn't see Kravica or other villages on the 7th. I only saw

7 Mandici.

8 Q. And you said they were taking the cattle away. What direction

9 were these people taking the cattle in?

10 A. They took the cattle from two households. They took cows, and

11 these people were watching their houses burning.

12 Q. And what direction did they take the cattle? What direction did

13 they take? Did they go towards a particular village or a particular area?

14 Could you see?

15 A. They went towards Glogova. They took the road that leads to

16 Glogova.

17 Q. And what did the -- after observing what you saw in Mandici take

18 place, what did -- what did you do and the other villagers from Popovici

19 do?

20 A. Mandici, yes.

21 Q. What did you do then?

22 A. What we did? We went to Zelinje. All of us went there. Nobody

23 spent the night there. And then we returned to tend to our livestock.

24 Then they surrounded us. They started shooting at us. They started

25 burning houses. Those who could flee, fled. And I stayed behind. I

Page 7126

1 couldn't leave.

2 Q. Okay. Now, specifically, I would like to ask you about the 7th.

3 What did you do after you observed the village of Mandici burning? Did you

4 take any action? Did you stay in your village? Or did you leave?

5 A. All the people from Mandici, Popovici and Kravica, we all went to

6 Zelinje. Nobody stayed behind. On the following morning, some of the

7 people returned home to see about their cattle.

8 Q. And did you also return?

9 A. I did, as well as my husband.

10 Q. And how many other villagers returned to the village on the 8th?

11 A. The six of us returned. And when they started shooting, these

12 people ran away.

13 Q. Ms. Nikolic, let me ask you: Is the 7th and 8th of January of

14 any significance to someone who is Serb?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put a direct question straight away.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Is the 7th of January, 1993 the Serb Orthodox holiday?

18 Christmas, in fact?

19 A. Yes. It was Christmas. Orthodox Christmas. Our Christmas.

20 Q. Now, bringing you back to the 8th of January, 1993, when you

21 returned home, could you tell us what time you returned home?

22 A. We got there around half past nine, half past nine. We tended to

23 our cattle. And then they started shooting at us. And people started

24 looking for a hiding place. I returned to tend to my sheep. Around 2.00 I

25 got captured.

Page 7127

1 Q. All right. Let me bring you back to the time of the shooting.

2 Do you remember, was that at half past nine, or later?

3 A. At half past 10, the first shots were fired.

4 Q. And were you with your husband at that time?

5 A. He went to tend to the oxen and I went to tend to the sheep and I

6 was captured.

7 Q. When you first heard the shooting, could you tell us, what was

8 the -- did you hear one shot, or more than one?

9 A. There was a lot. Not just one shot. There were many, and those

10 who could run away, they did. And those who couldn't, they got killed.

11 That's what happened.

12 Q. Could you tell what -- the direction that the shooting was coming

13 from?

14 A. From everywhere. I can't say that it came from only one

15 direction. There was shooting from all over the place.

16 Q. And were you injured?

17 A. Yes. I got wounded in the leg by two bullets and I was bleeding,

18 but there was nobody to complain to. So when I got to the prison I was

19 still bleeding. I was covered with blood, and my skirt was pierced by

20 those bullets and that was that.

21 Q. All right. When you heard the shooting, what did you do?

22 A. I don't understand.

23 Q. All right. When you first heard the shooting as you were tending

24 to your livestock, what action did you take? Did you run? Did you hide?

25 Could you tell the Trial Chamber.

Page 7128

1 A. We did not run. There was shooting. I don't know where from.

2 My man went to the oxen and I went to the sheep. They captured me there.

3 Q. Before they captured you, were you able to see who was doing the

4 shooting?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. And the --

9 A. I went to tend to the sheep. I got captured. I don't know who

10 by. I -- they asked me who it was. I don't know who they were.

11 Q. Did you notice anything, anything with respect to the houses in

12 your hamlet?

13 A. On the 7th of January, their houses were burning and ours were

14 burning on the 8th. Theirs were burning on Christmas.

15 Q. Now, you said you were captured. Could you tell us who captured

16 you. And when I say "who", could you tell us if they were men, and could

17 you tell us how they were dressed.

18 A. They were armed men. Though had military gear, all of them.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can -- I think this needs to be

20 clarified, Ms. Richardson. She says "on the 7th of January, their houses

21 were burning and ours were burning on the 8th." Perhaps she can explain a

22 little.


24 Q. When you say their houses were burning on the 7th, whose houses

25 and what village are you referring to?

Page 7129

1 A. Kravica and Mandici were burning on the 7th, and on the 8th,

2 Popovici and Celakovici were burning. That's what burned down on the 8th.

3 Q. I would like you to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you know that on the 7th the villages of

5 Kravica and Mandici were burning?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I know. People started

7 fleeing Kravica and Mandici before the dawn and they started fleeing to

8 Zelinje.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.

10 Q. You were able to see this from Popovici, correct, because

11 Popovici is located on a hill? So that we understand.

12 A. Popovici and Mandici are on two hills.

13 MR. JONES: Yes, as to what the witness could she, she has

14 testified that she couldn't actually see Kravica. If it's a question of

15 seeing people fleeing past her, then perhaps it's a matter that needs to be

16 clarified.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, yes. I thank you, Mr. Jones.

18 Ms. Richardson.


20 Q. With respect to Kravica, what were you able to see, on the 7th?

21 A. In Kravica?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. When I was being taken through Kravica on the 8th, I could see

24 that Kravica was burnt down completely, and I know that it had burned down

25 on the 7th. And I was taken through Kravica on the 8th, towards Glogova.

Page 7130

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is clear enough, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think too. Yes, let's proceed, Ms. Richardson,

4 please. Thank you.


6 Q. With respect to your capture, I would like to take you back to

7 that moment that you were captured. You said that there were men who

8 captured you and they were -- were they wearing uniforms? Military

9 uniforms?

10 A. Of course. Of course, they wore military uniforms like any other

11 troops. They were armed and there were four of them who captured me, and

12 that was that.

13 Q. What, if anything, did they say to you?

14 A. They slapped me, they shook me, and asked me who, who is it? Who

15 is it? I said I don't know who it is, but I was slapped good and hard.

16 Q. And what did they ask you to do, if anything?

17 A. They asked me if I had any cigarettes. I had a pack of

18 cigarettes that I gave them. That was that.

19 Q. Where did you get the cigarettes from?

20 A. I had it in my house. My house was burning. I went through the

21 flames, to the chest of drawers. I opened the drawer and gave them the

22 cigarettes and then they told me, We didn't kill you, but we're taking you

23 to our commander and he will kill you.

24 Q. And did you observe who set fire to your house, if anyone?

25 A. The troops that came. They burned my house, but not only mine.

Page 7131

1 They burnt all the houses in the village. Not only mine. The troops.

2 Q. And were you able to see the other houses in the village burning

3 as well as your own?

4 A. They were all ablaze. They were all burning.

5 Q. Now, in addition to the four men who captured you, who were

6 dressed in military uniforms, did you see any other men in the area of the

7 houses? And, if you did, could you --

8 A. I saw 400 of them. I heard from them personally that they were

9 400 of them. They were all armed. They all wore military attire, military

10 clothes.

11 Q. All right. Before we get to where you overheard -- where you

12 heard that there were 400 of them, at the point that you were captured and

13 there were four men at that time dressed in military clothing and there

14 were other houses burning in your village, did you notice any other

15 individuals in the area, in that area where the houses of Popovici are

16 located?

17 A. There was nobody else but the troops that came to the village.

18 There was nobody else. Just the troops, the troops that came to the

19 village.

20 Q. Were there any civilians, other -- when I say civilians --

21 A. No, no, no, there were no civilians. Only those in military

22 clothes and armed.

23 Q. And were these men in military clothing, were they Muslim or

24 Serb? Do you know?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I would ask her whether she knows the -- this is

Page 7132

1 where the distinction between direct and leading questions arises.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase the question, please.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: I can rephrase.

5 Q. What was the ethnicity of the men dressed in military clothing?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If you know it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know who

8 they were, who they belonged to. They were just troops. Troops -- the

9 troops that came by that set houses -- they set fire to the houses, they

10 just came. I don't know who they were.


12 Q. In addition to their uniform, did you notice anything else on

13 them, other than the uniform and the weapons?

14 A. Nothing else. I did not notice anything else. I could only see

15 military uniforms and weapons that they carried.

16 Q. And other than the green uniform, was there anything else

17 distinctive about the uniforms or anything else that they had that stood

18 out to you?

19 A. They had red bands, some of them around their foreheads and some

20 of them on their shoulders, tied around their shoulders.

21 Q. After you were captured by the four soldiers, what did they do

22 with you?

23 A. They took me to Glogova.

24 Q. But before -- and did anything happen once you get -- I will

25 rephrase.

Page 7133

1 They mentioned that they were going to take you to their

2 commander. Did they do that?

3 A. They didn't say who they were taking me to. They said, "We are

4 taking you to the village, to the commander, and it will be up to him

5 whether to kill you or to let you live. We didn't kill you. We will let

6 others do that."

7 Q. And did they do that, did they take you to this individual?

8 A. Yes, they did. The troops gathered in the centre of the village

9 and they then handed me over to the commander.

10 Q. And do you know the name of this commander?

11 A. Nezir.

12 Q. Is this and individual that you knew prior to January 8th?

13 A. He was a smuggler, Nezir. He traded in cattle. Then he joined

14 the army and he was the commander in the village.

15 Q. And this individual, Nezir, is he Muslim or Serb?

16 A. Muslim.

17 Q. What, if anything, did he say to you?

18 A. I told him, "Nezir, please don't let them kill me. And he said

19 "No, I won't let them kill you. You have reached me and I won't let them

20 kill you." And then he gave me the war gear for me to carry to Kravica.

21 Q. Now, how was he dressed? Was he dressed in military or civilian

22 clothing, and can you tell us if he was carrying a weapon?

23 A. He wore civilian clothes. And he had a hat, a woolen cap,

24 multicoloured hat and civilian clothes, and he wasn't armed.

25 Q. Did he -- did you observe him doing anything, such as giving

Page 7134

1 orders to anyone?

2 MR. JONES: I do object to that question, which is very leading.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: I can rephrase, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Yes, Mr. Jones. Objection upheld.

5 Ms. Richardson, please rephrase your question.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: I will rephrase, Your Honour.

7 Q. You mentioned the four men said that they were taking you to

8 their commander. Did Mr. Nezir introduce himself to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- as -- let me finish the question. Did Mr. Nezir introduce

11 himself to you as the commander? Or did he give you any title?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. What did he say to you?

14 A. They said, "We're taking you to the commander." I asked who the

15 commander is, and it turns out Nezir was the commander.

16 Q. Did Nezir say he was the commander to you?

17 A. Yes, he did say that. And everybody knew that he was the

18 commander. All the troops that were with him, all the troops knew that he

19 was their commander.

20 Q. And you said you overheard a conversation or you overheard that

21 there were 400 soldiers. Could you tell us who said this and when?

22 A. They were talking amongst themselves and they said that there

23 were 400 soldiers in our village. I didn't hear it from anybody else. I

24 heard it from them.

25 Q. You also testified that you were given something to carry. Could

Page 7135

1 you explain what that was? And could you also tell us the weight of this -

2 - of whatever it was you were given to carry?

3 A. I carried his war gear to Kravica, and I said to Mrs. Golic that

4 I couldn't carry it any more. And then it was taken from me. But to

5 Kravica I carried it myself, and he was the commander responsible for our

6 village.

7 Q. I would like to draw your attention to a village that you

8 mentioned, that you testified about previously. You mentioned the village

9 of Celakovici and you said that hamlet was also burning. Could you tell us

10 when it was that you saw this village or hamlet burning?

11 A. Celakovici is the hamlet. It is five or six houses only toward

12 Kravica and it was burnt on the same day as our village.

13 Q. And was this something you were able to observe?

14 A. Yes, I could see it. That's along the road, so I saw it.

15 Q. Were you able to see any other villages, whether they're Muslim

16 or Serb villages?

17 A. Our village or -- our villages were burning then. No Muslim

18 villages on the 7th and 8th.

19 Q. Do you know what happened to your husband? Was he captured as

20 well?

21 A. No, he wasn't. We came from Zelinje and we went to tend to the

22 livestock when the shooting began. So I turned and went to the other

23 direction. He had gone to tend to the oxen, and he found shelter there

24 somewhere, so he wasn't with me at the moment so he was -- and he wasn't

25 caught with me.

Page 7136

1 Q. At the time of the attack, was he dressed in military clothing,

2 and did he have a weapon?

3 A. He didn't have anything. He had no uniform and he wasn't wearing

4 a weapon. He had nothing. And he wasn't a sentry either.

5 Q. I would like to bring you back to where you were captured, and

6 where you had this conversation with Nezir.

7 After this conversation and after he gave you his equipment to

8 carry, what happened next?

9 A. I carried the equipment to Kravica. Then they took it from me.

10 And they took me to Glogova. That's where I spent the night. And then

11 Mrs. Golic took me to Srebrenica, and that was it.

12 Q. You mentioned Mrs. Golic, who is that? Who is this person you

13 just mentioned?

14 A. She is from Glogova. She had a brother in the police and so --

15 and he was on patrol with some of our Serbs and his -- her brother's name

16 was Gojcinovic, and that is what they called her too. She was a nurse, a

17 nurse for that police company.

18 Q. What ethnicity is she?

19 A. She was Muslim.

20 Q. And how was it that you came to be with her?

21 A. I saw it in -- I saw, in my village, I saw -- sorry, I saw her

22 and Esma. They were the only women among the troops.

23 Q. All right. And could you just tell us about their first

24 conversation with Ms. Golic. And is she known by any other name? Does she

25 have another name?

Page 7137

1 A. That's her maiden name, Fatima Golic.

2 Q. All right. And could you tell us about your first contact with

3 her.

4 A. It was good. Like, I had like a friendly conversation with her.

5 Q. What did she -- let me just -- I will rephrase that question.

6 When was it that you first saw her, the place?

7 A. I saw her for the first time then. We only met then when she was

8 with the troops there.

9 Q. And this was in the middle of the town or was it in Glogova?

10 A. It was in the middle of the village. The only women among them

11 were her and Esma. No others.

12 Q. How was Ms. Golic dressed?

13 A. She wore jeans, and Esma had white pants and a white ribbon in

14 her hair and she -- she carried a machine-gun, 53-type.

15 Q. All right. We just need, Ms. Nikolic, for you to clarify for us.

16 You she'd wore jeans. Who wore jeans? Was this Esma or Ms. Golic?

17 A. Fatima.

18 Q. Other than --

19 A. So Mrs. Golic wore jeans and a Red Cross bag. And she wore a

20 machine-gun.

21 Q. And she, meaning who wore a machine-gun? Esma or Ms. Golic?

22 A. Esma did. And the other only had a Red Cross bag hanging on her,

23 from her shoulder, Ms. Golic that is.

24 Q. My next question is with respect to only Ms. Golic. Did she tell

25 you if she was a member of -- who she was with respect to the military?

Page 7138

1 A. She said that she's like military police and that she was

2 carrying this Red Cross bag as a nurse. Fatima did.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I let you phrase the question as you did, because

4 there was no objection from the Defence. But please try to avoid putting

5 questions in this fashion. The question should have been: Did she tell

6 you -- did she explain her role there, why she was there, what she was

7 doing there.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- what she was --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She said nothing to me.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not you. I'm addressing Madam Richardson, not you.

12 I mean you are giving -- you are doing much better than any other

13 witnesses.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I will do my best not to ask leading

15 questions. It is a bit difficult as you understand.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I can understand Mr. Jones restraining himself on

17 and off.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, it was a matter of restraint.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: And I do appreciate that, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I also have enough feelers to be able to figure out

21 that this can't last much longer and I wouldn't like to have a sitting in

22 which I have Mr. Jones standing up and objecting to every question then.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: I will ask more open-ended questions, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

Page 7139

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

2 Q. With respect to Esma, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether

3 you knew this individual prior to your meeting with her on January 8th.

4 A. I had never heard of her. I didn't know -- didn't know that she

5 was alive, let alone anything else.

6 Q. And what ethnicity is she? Or was she?

7 A. I don't know. She had a machine-gun and she was with the troops,

8 so she would have been a Muslim. What else?

9 Q. And did she -- what, if anything, did she say to you?

10 A. See, she only accepted -- accepted me as her brother spent the

11 night in our house sometimes as a police officer, with other police

12 officers, that brother of hers and Brane, the other police officer.

13 Q. Just for clarification, you just testified she only accepted you

14 and her brother spent the night in your house. Are you referring to her

15 brother spent the night in your house. Are you referring to Ms. Golic or

16 Ms. Esma?

17 A. No, no, no, Ms. Golic.

18 Q. With respect to Esma, only Esma, what conversation, if any, did

19 Esma have with you when you met her on January 8th?

20 A. I didn't speak to anyone, including her. She was standing apart

21 from most of the others and I was among them. I didn't know who was who

22 and where they were.

23 Q. Well, did she say anything to you or about you? Esma, that is.

24 A. She only said, "Let me kill her, the fucking Serbian," and Fatima

25 said, "No, you won't kill her. My brother was in her house." And that's

Page 7140

1 what it was between the two of them.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think this is a good time for a

3 break.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect, Ms. Richardson. We will have -- I think

5 we can safely have a 30-minute, instead of the usual 25, so that will give

6 her five minutes extra to rest.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson. Thank you.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Ms. Nikolic, prior to the break, you testified that you spoke

14 with an Esma and Fatima and that you also were given a bag of -- to carry.

15 Could you tell the Trial Chamber what happened after this encounter with

16 Fatima and Esma, and where were you taken after this.

17 A. Taken? I was taken to --

18 THE INTERPRETER: We couldn't understand the answer, sorry.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Nikolic, you need to repeat your answer,

20 because the interpreters couldn't hear you. If you could speak into the

21 microphones, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean where they took me? That

23 was the question? Is that so? I don't understand.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was the following: I will read it out

25 to you.

Page 7141

1 "You have told us about the meeting you had with this Fatima and

2 Esma and that you were also given a bag of -- a bag to carry."

3 Madam Richardson asked you whether you could tell us now, what

4 happened after this, after this encounter with Fatima and Esma, and where

5 were you taken.

6 THE WITNESS: You mean where we were taken?


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Esma and Fatima Golic, I don't

9 remember -- I don't know the last name of Esma. But Fatima Golic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Where did they take you? Or where were you

11 taken?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They took me through Kravica, so I

13 was taken through Kravica.


15 Q. All right. Let me stop you there, Ms. Nikolic. As you were

16 being taken through Kravica, were you walking?

17 A. Yes, all the time.

18 Q. Were you the only prisoner?

19 A. The only one, yes.

20 Q. How many -- who was with you, other than Fatima and Esma?

21 A. All the troops.

22 Q. Could you tell how many troops there were?

23 A. I don't know. In the village there were -- there were many

24 troops. More than in our village.

25 Q. As you were walking through Kravica, what were you able to

Page 7142

1 observe with respect to the condition of the village?

2 A. While we were passing through Kravica, we found five dead bodies.

3 Q. Did you recognise -- what was the condition of the bodies?

4 A. There were four soldiers and one woman and one was without a

5 head.

6 Q. Were you able to recognise any of the bodies? Was it anyone that

7 you knew?

8 A. I knew a man from Krajici, Gordan Nikolic, the son of Cvijetin.

9 Q. And what ethnicity is he? Was he? Excuse me?

10 A. You mean Gordan, the son of Cvijetin?

11 Q. Correct.

12 A. I think that he was -- he was a soldier when he got killed.

13 Q. What ethnicity was he?

14 A. I don't know. I have no idea.

15 Q. Well, was he Muslim or Serb?

16 A. He was a Serb.

17 Q. With respect to the condition of the town of Kravica itself or

18 the areas that you observed, the houses, could you tell us what condition

19 they were?

20 A. No. As I was passing through, or before that?

21 Q. As you were passing through.

22 A. All the houses were burnt and nothing was -- had been left

23 standing. It had all been burnt down.

24 Q. And after leaving Kravica, where did you go next? Where were you

25 taken?

Page 7143

1 A. To Krajici, where there were the five dead bodies, and up to

2 Glogova and that's where they took me.

3 Q. And in Glogova, how long did you stay? And who were you with?

4 A. I spent the night there and they took me to Potocari.

5 Q. And when you say "they", who are you referring to?

6 A. Well, the troops, those who were taking me. I don't know which

7 troops they were.

8 Q. And where did you spend the night?

9 A. In the house of the Nikolic family in Glogova.

10 Q. Were the Nikolics present?

11 A. No, no, they had left. They had escaped.

12 Q. And the following day, where were you taken?

13 A. I don't know. But he took me away anyway.

14 Q. Well, after leaving Glogova, where were you taken, do you

15 remember, the following day?

16 A. They took me away. I don't know which road it was. On the 10th,

17 when we went to Potocari. Or, no, no, it wasn't the 10th. It was on the

18 9th.

19 Q. So you went to Potocari -- you were taken to Potocari the day

20 after spending the night in Glogova, the next day?

21 A. [No audible response].

22 Q. Did there come a time when you left Potocari?

23 A. No. In the morning Fatima took me to the police station.

24 Q. Okay. And where is the police station?

25 A. In Srebrenica.

Page 7144

1 Q. What time did you get to Srebrenica?

2 A. We arrived there at 8.00, from Potocari.

3 Q. Was that in the morning or in the evening?

4 A. The morning.

5 Q. Had you been to Potocari -- excuse me. Had you been to

6 Srebrenica prior to this day?

7 A. Yes. My brother had a house there and I had -- and I had stayed

8 with him sometimes, but not otherwise.

9 Q. When you arrived in the police station, what happened?

10 A. Nothing happened. I found --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name from

12 Bjelovac.

13 A. -- who was captured there and I was there with her.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat the name of this person that you

15 met over there, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean -- it was Dostana

17 Obramovic, from Bjelovac.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


20 Q. And where were you held in the police station?

21 A. They took me to a room and kept me there. And once there were

22 more women, they took us to the prison in Srebrenica.

23 Q. Before we get to the prison and the other women, who was in the

24 room when you first arrived at the police station?

25 A. The police were there. It was a police station.

Page 7145

1 Q. Do you remember how many of them were there? How many police

2 were there?

3 A. I don't know how many there were. They took me to a room, but I

4 don't remember how many they were.

5 Q. Prior to taking you to the room, did they ask you any questions?

6 A. No. What would they have asked me?

7 Q. And who else was in the room with you?

8 A. I found her, and another 12 women were also brought to the police

9 station from other places.

10 Q. When you say "her", are you referring to Dostana?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How soon after did the other women arrive? Was it a day later or

13 more than a day?

14 A. It was on Orthodox New Year when 12 more women were brought.

15 Q. Do you remember the names of these women that were brought in?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Do you remember if there were any children present?

18 A. Children? Yes, I think there were five children.

19 Q. Do you remember if they were boys or girls?

20 A. One -- one girl, and there was one boy by the name of Branko.

21 Q. Now, you said you don't remember the names of the women who were

22 brought in. Correct?

23 A. I don't remember. How could I?

24 Q. Do you remember giving a statement in the year 2000 to an

25 investigator? And there was an interpreter present.

Page 7146

1 A. I don't remember. How could I?

2 Q. All right. Just think back for a moment. In 2000, did someone

3 come to speak to you about what had happened to you in Srebrenica, and what

4 had happened in your village?

5 A. I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. Well, other than -- prior to coming here, if you think back about

7 four years ago, did someone come to you or were you taken somewhere, where

8 you were asked about what had happened in 1993 in your village and what had

9 happened when you were in the police station in Srebrenica. Do you

10 remember? Not what you said to them, but do you remember what they came

11 and they spoke to you about this?

12 A. I don't remember. I don't know and I don't remember.

13 Q. Prior to -- is this the first time that you have spoken about

14 what happened to you?

15 A. Yes, this is the first time.

16 Q. Now, after you were released from prison in 1993, did anyone

17 speak to you then?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know whether they did or whether they

19 didn't. I'd sooner say that they didn't.

20 Q. Well, we would prefer that you tell us. If you don't remember,

21 you can say that -- you should say that you don't remember, and if you

22 don't know, you can let us know that you don't know as well.

23 So my question is, if you listen carefully, do you recall, in

24 2000 - you may not remember the year, but a few years prior to today - that

25 someone came and spoke to you. That person was possibly speaking English

Page 7147












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7148

1 and there was someone else who spoke your language, who translated what he

2 -- what he was saying and what he asked you. Do you remember that?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it wasn't a "he".

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. And I don't

6 remember.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 Q. Do you remember an interpreter by the name of Zeljka?

9 A. In Zvornik, you mean? There was an interpreter called Zeljka,

10 yes.

11 Q. And --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened in Zvornik? Let's -- what happened

13 in Zvornik?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A policeman came from Bratunac and

15 he took me to Zvornik, and there I gave a statement. And she was there to

16 interview me. She was like somebody foreign, and there was an interpreter

17 with her. That was in Zvornik. That's where I gave my statement.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And to whom did you give this statement? Do you

19 know who had sent them there? Do you know who had sent them there to speak

20 to you, to interview you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who sent them. They

22 just asked me to go to Zvornik. Our police took them there, brought me

23 back home. I went there. I told them what I knew. And there was this

24 foreign woman with -- Zeljka.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7149

1 Q. And you told them what had happened to you in 1993; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you also told them about the women who had been in prison

5 with you?

6 A. Yes. There were women. And I don't know -- I did tell them

7 about them, and I told you about them, about these women that were with me.

8 I told you yesterday about them.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time, since the witness

10 does not read or write, I would like to read from the 2000 statement, the

11 list of names and --

12 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour I think we're very far from having

13 established a foundation for that. Apart from the fact that the witness on

14 many occasions said she doesn't know, doesn't remember, we're far from

15 identifying, as the 2000 statement, this Zvornik statement. And as Your

16 Honour is probably aware, there is a statement which is identified as being

17 from Zvornik, which is from 1994. The 2000 statement doesn't say anywhere

18 that it was taken in Zvornik.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It never does, actually, but...

20 MR. JONES: No. And so, in my submission, this witness hasn't

21 given evidence that she recalls making the statements.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't say any more, Mr. Jones, especially since the

23 witness is here.

24 MR. JONES: Of course.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think for the time being, there are these

Page 7150

1 problems, Ms. Richardson. I think it is too early for you to refer to the

2 statement before you clear a few other things.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because -- and I can explain to you. I mean, there

5 is a diagram, the origin of which is explained in the statement. There is

6 a statement at the end of the statement which says that the witness signed

7 her signature, where indicated. Instead -- there is a mark, and there is

8 nothing accompanying that mark which attests to whom it belongs. I mean,

9 there are a few things that you need to cover first before I can tell you,

10 Yes, Ms. Richardson, now you can --

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, I'm fully aware there are

12 a number of steps for the refreshing exercise to be completed. It's very

13 apparent it is quite painful at this point. But if the Court -- if you

14 would have me go through them, we can maybe -- we may be here for a while

15 going through it but we can attempt --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I can try to help you a little bit, but only a

17 little bit, in order to see whether we could proceed.

18 Madam Nikolic, look at me, please. Yes. You told us that when

19 you got to the police station, you met a woman there, another Serb, by the

20 name of Dostana. Is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You also told us that later on another number

23 of women arrived, something like 12 women arrived; is that correct.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You also told us that there were a number of

Page 7151

1 children, and you remembered particularly a small boy, a young boy by the

2 name of Branko; is that correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is also correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You also mentioned that there was a little girl.

5 Do you remember her name?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Her mother's name was Stana and her

7 name was Vesna.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So now, again now we have two women there

9 that you have given us the name of, Dostana and Stana. Do you remember the

10 names of the other women that were there? You can take them one by one at

11 your leisure and pleasure.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were just those that I

13 mentioned to the Prosecutor yesterday. There were 12, the three of us were

14 there, the daughter in law and there were three children who were there.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But now Mrs. Nikolic, you need to help me a

16 little bit, because, as you can confirm, I was not with you yesterday when

17 you were telling these names to Ms. Richardson. So if I wasn't there, I

18 need you to help me a little bit now and give me the same names that you

19 gave to Ms. Richardson. Can we go through the list one by one, you think?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we can, if that is necessary.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is very much necessary. So you told us

22 Dostana and you told us Stana. Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dostana and her daughter in law,

24 Mira, with three children. Dostana and Mira, there was Milenja, there was

25 Milka, and other names I don't know. There were fifteen of us women and

Page 7152

1 there were 11 men.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's stay --

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the names. I don't

5 know the names.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour I think that is sufficient at this

7 point. I'm much obliged to you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


10 Q. With respect to the women that were in the prison with you, do

11 you remember the condition, the physical condition of any one particular

12 woman? Were they in good health or was -- was any -- did any woman appear

13 to you to be injured?

14 MR. JONES: I would have stopped with "what condition were they

15 in."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree completely with you. Were these

17 women in good shape? What was their condition?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in good shape, but they

19 were not close to me. They were from Skelani. They were not my

20 neighbours. Those women are from Skelani. They were healthy, they were

21 able bodied.



24 Q. Do you recall anything about any one particular woman when she

25 was brought in?

Page 7153

1 A. There was a girl, a young woman who was wounded and her mother

2 was with her. The two of them had been captured.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember their names? This wounded young

4 lady and her mother?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milena and her daughter, Stana,.

6 They were in our room. They were both in prison.



9 Q. And do you recall the name of the -- do you recall if the mother

10 of the ten year old was also present, Vesna?

11 A. Vesna, and her mother was also Stana, they were the first ones to

12 be let out of our prison.

13 Q. All right. Now, when these women were brought in, you said there

14 was 15 in total. Was there a time that any other women were brought in?

15 Well, I will rephrase.

16 For instance, Stana and Milena, the mother and daughter were they

17 brought in --

18 A. They were all brought on one day. The ones that were not

19 wounded, the one that was wounded, they were all brought in on that one

20 day, which was our Serbian new year.

21 Q. And were any other women brought in, after this, after this

22 group?

23 A. Those who were brought on that day were the ones that stayed in

24 the prison and this one was wounded. Stana was her name.

25 Q. And in addition -- other than this group that you mentioned,

Page 7154

1 including Stana, on any other day, did any other women come? Did they

2 bring any other women to the prison, or, excuse me, the police station?

3 A. They brought, from Cerska, one woman and they put her among us.

4 They put her in prison. She was brought from Cerska.

5 Q. Do you remember her name?

6 A. Andja.

7 Q. Could you tell us how long the women, including yourself, were

8 kept at the police station?

9 A. We were there, all of us together, just for one night. And on

10 the 19th, we were taken --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the end of that

12 sentence. On the 19th of January, that was.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Nikolic, bear with me for a moment,

14 please. Where were you taken on the 19th of January?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were taken to Srebrenica, to the

16 prison there.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.


19 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, did there come a time that you were taken from the

20 room at the police station and taken elsewhere? Just you yourself.

21 A. They didn't take me anywhere. That was when Dostana and I were

22 there. They took us for interrogation and it was just me and Dostana. And

23 then, when the other women came, we were all together and we were not taken

24 anywhere.

25 Q. I would like to ask you about that interrogation --

Page 7155

1 interrogation, excuse me.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would ask for this

3 one document to be given a new exhibit. I'm about to use Prosecution's

4 Exhibit 56, but we do have another -- we have a document that requires an

5 exhibit number as well. Now, the witness does not read so I will not be

6 showing it to her.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I need to see the document first. I need to

8 see the document first.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. We do have copies that we

10 will be handing out.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I've lost count of the sequence. Perhaps you can

12 help me, Madam Registrar. 519.

13 So this Prosecution exhibit, which is being tendered today, the

14 12th of April and which bears ERN number 02075725 as regards the Serbian --

15 Serbo-Croat version, and 03038171 as regards to the translation into

16 English, is being tendered, received and marked as Prosecution Exhibit

17 P519. Thank you.


19 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, you said you were interrogated. Do you recall what

20 questions were put to you during the interrogation?

21 A. Should I know? It was four years ago. How could I remember?

22 Q. Well, do you recall if they asked you personal information, such

23 as -- personal information about yourself and your family.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I want to make sure there is no confusion

25 here. Because I heard you say "it was four years ago", Madam Nikolic.

Page 7156

1 It's not the interview that you had with that English-speaking lady and the

2 interpreter that we are referring to. We are referring to, when you were

3 in Srebrenica, you were taken from the police station to the prison in

4 Srebrenica and you were interrogated there, on that occasion.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did say 12 years ago.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the transcript says "four years ago". So,

7 we will try to refresh a little bit.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were interrogating me. They

9 asked me about how things were. I don't know what they asked me. It was a

10 long time ago. I forgot. I don't know.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If we tried to refresh your memory a

12 bit, do you think it would help you remember?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked me in Srebrenica, one

14 said, "Where were you imprisoned? Where were you captured?" And they also

15 asked me about the cattle. I don't know what else they asked me.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.


18 Q. Do you recall if they asked you about your husband?

19 A. They asked me questions.

20 Q. What did you think at the time --

21 A. They asked me where he was and I said, "I don't know whether he

22 is alive, whether he was killed. I don't know."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. One moment. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "He has remained

25 up there" and this has not entered the record. In addition to having said

Page 7157

1 "I don't know whether he is alive or whether he was killed", she also said

2 "He has remained up there." But this has not entered in the transcript,

3 and I just wanted to clarify that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. If I hear nothing

5 contradicting that, I take it that it is so, and it will be entered into

6 the record as such. Let's proceed.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. At the time of the interrogation, were you aware if your husband

9 was alive or not? Or was he dead? Did you know?

10 A. I didn't know.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, in the interest of time I will just

12 ask that these -- well, the second document, Prosecution Exhibit 519, be

13 entered into evidence. I will not read them out to the witness. I think

14 that is as much use as I will use of it -- make of it today.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.


17 Q. I would like to take you back to the interrogation just briefly.

18 Could you tell us whether or not -- how many people were present during the

19 interrogation.

20 A. When they were interrogating me?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. When they were interrogating me, there was just one. When I went

23 for interrogation from the prison, I was taken to the town, there was one

24 who interrogated me and that was that.

25 Q. Do you recall what this individual was wearing, and were you

Page 7158

1 interrogated by a man or a woman?

2 A. It was a man in a military uniform.

3 Q. And who escorted you to the interrogation? How were you taken

4 from the police station to the interrogation?

5 A. There was one man who escorted me, who handed me over to the man

6 who interrogated me, and then this first man brought me back to the prison.

7 Q. This man that brought you back to the prison, how was he dressed?

8 What type of clothing?

9 A. He had a uniform, a field uniform.

10 Q. And did you notice if he had a weapon?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. Now, I would like to bring your attention to the time that you

13 were transferred, you along with the other women to -- the time that you

14 were taken from the police station. Do you recall that day?

15 A. Of course I do.

16 Q. And who took you from the police station to the other building?

17 Who escorted you?

18 A. Soldiers did. One was going in front without weapons, and two

19 were behind us. We were some 15 women. We were taken to prison. And one

20 was walking in front of us without weapons, and two were behind us with

21 weapons, when they were taking us to the prison in town.

22 Q. Were these the same soldiers who brought you to Srebrenica or

23 were these different soldiers?

24 A. I don't know. I guess it was the same troops. They had military

25 clothes on.

Page 7159

1 Q. By that I mean their faces. Did you recognise them as the same

2 people, the same soldiers who had brought you to Srebrenica or were these

3 different men in uniforms?

4 A. I didn't know them.

5 Q. How did you get from the police station to the other building?

6 Did you walk or were you driven?

7 A. We walked all the way.

8 Q. And where were you taken?

9 A. From the police station up to the town.

10 Q. And what building did they take you to, if any?

11 A. I don't know. It was a big building and we were downstairs on

12 the ground floor, and up on the first floor they kept their weapons.

13 Q. When you were walking -- could you describe this building for us,

14 when you first walked in. Could you describe the layout of it?

15 A. So the room had a floor. It was comfortable. It was like a

16 prison, and there was also the men's prison in that building, and there was

17 the duty officer's room too.

18 Q. The room that the women were brought -- all the women were taken

19 to one room; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, all of the women and children.

21 Q. Could you tell us what was contained in this room?

22 A. Well, there was a bench, nothing else, and there was also a

23 stove, nothing else.

24 Q. Do you recall if there was a window?

25 A. There were two small windows.

Page 7160

1 Q. Could you tell us what the temperature was in this room?

2 A. Well, you know it was January. You know how cold it gets. When

3 we have field wood, then we start a fire to warm ourselves and when we

4 don't, then we don't.

5 Q. How were you able to get wood?

6 A. How we obtained wood? Well, if they brought us wood, then we

7 would start a fire, and if we didn't get any, then not.

8 Q. Were there any beds in this room?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. And where did you --

11 A. Just one bench and a stove, nothing else.

12 Q. Where did you and the other women sleep?

13 A. On the floor. We had a blanket each and we slept on the floor.

14 Q. And during the time that you were held in this prison, was food

15 provided to you and water?

16 A. We received food once a day. And water? Well, when there was

17 someone to bring it to us.

18 Q. What type of food did you receive?

19 A. From the first till the last day, we got white beans and bread.

20 Q. Were you permitted to use the toilet, you and the other women?

21 A. They said to us that we should knock on the door when in need,

22 and that they would open, because the duty officer was on -- to the right

23 of our room.

24 Q. Do you recall how the duty officer was dressed?

25 A. He was wearing civilian clothes, the duty officer.

Page 7161

1 Q. Was it always the same duty officer? Or did this person change

2 over the length of time that you were held there?

3 A. They were different persons. They changed.

4 Q. And were they always dressed in civilian clothing? Or did their

5 clothing differ from time to time?

6 A. It was different. Some of them were in civilian clothes; others

7 in military clothes. It changed.

8 Q. Do you recall whether they carried weapons?

9 A. No. I haven't seen any weapons.

10 Q. You testified a few minutes ago that there were male -- there

11 were eleven male prisoners. Could you tell us, first of all, how it was

12 that you learned that there were male prisoners in the same building with

13 you?

14 A. Oh, there were male prisoners, only in another room.

15 Q. And do you know where, in relation to your room, this room was

16 located? In other words, was it next door or was it across from you? Do

17 you recall?

18 A. There is a hallway going through all the building, and on this

19 side there was the duty officer and our room, and next to that there was

20 the men's room.

21 MR. JONES: Just one matter. I was just looking at the

22 transcript and my learned friend referred to this witness testifying there

23 we're 11 male prisoners. It may not be a big point, but I searched

24 transcript and I don't see where the witness ever said 11 male prisoners.

25 It's a matter which should be brought to Your Honours' attention.

Page 7162

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I understand, but I distinctly

2 remember that being said. I can't find it at this time in the transcript -

3 -

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember hearing it as well, but if necessary we

5 will check. Did you check under 11, Mr. Jones?

6 MR. JONES: Yes, that's precisely what I looked for.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we have done a search as well. It

8 appears in the transcript that the first mention of 11 was when I made

9 reference to it. However, I don't think it is my imagination that it was

10 said. My colleague has confirmed that it was said and it's possible that

11 it simply did not make it into the transcript.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine that you had searched under "11", so I am

13 searching under "men". Yes, if you look at page 46, line 9, of course you

14 won't find "11" there, but I am sure that you will all agree with me that

15 what is spelled "LEFRN" basically is 11.

16 MR. JONES: My apologies, that could be the explanation. I can't

17 think of any words which would approximate to that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I searched under something different from what I

19 anticipated you would be searching. So let's proceed. Thank you for

20 pointing that out, Mr. Jones, and for your cooperation, Madam Richardson

21 and Mr. Doria.


23 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, could you tell us how it was that you became aware

24 that there were male prisoners?

25 A. How I became aware of it? Well, when they took us there, they

Page 7163

1 were also taken there, and I knew that that's how many there were, that 11

2 had been captured. They were brought there on the same day as we.

3 Q. And were you -- did you know any of the male prisoners?

4 A. No, except for Ratko Nikolic.

5 Q. And did you see Ratko Nikolic during the time that you were in

6 the prison?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Could you tell us about that. When did you see him? What was he

9 doing?

10 A. I saw him bring us fuel wood and he said to us, "There, ladies,

11 there's some wood for you." And some three people were standing in the

12 door with weapons and he brought us wood.

13 Q. Do you remember what condition he was in, what physical condition

14 he was in?

15 A. I don't know. How should I know?

16 Q. Well, were you able to see his face?

17 A. Yes, I did. He was -- he had an injury on the face, on the

18 cheek.

19 Q. When you say "an injury", what -- could you tell us a little bit

20 more? Could you describe what kind of injury, if you remember?

21 A. There is nothing much to remember. He brought us wood and he was

22 -- well, bloody on the cheeks and scratched and he was taken back to the

23 other room.

24 Q. And with respect to the room where the men were kept, what, if

25 anything, did you hear during the period of time that you were in this

Page 7164

1 prison? Were you able to hear anything coming from that room?

2 A. Well, what was there to hear? I heard them screaming "Yoy", I

3 don't know why. Of course I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know

4 who was beating them. Ratko knows.

5 Q. How often did you hear them screaming? Was it on a daily basis

6 or --

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I will rephrase the question?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it is an objection.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes they did.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is not an objection, Your

11 Honours. The witness is saying something quite different from what is

12 being interpreted. I heard the witness say she -- that she heard people

13 crying out "Yoy" and it was interpreted differently from what it means in

14 our language. This keeps repeating itself.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Nikolic, you've heard what Madam

16 Vidovic has just stated.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree with what she has just said?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. For example, why should I

20 talk to you why I moaned? I may have moaned for some reason too. I don't

21 know why people moaned, for what reason.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, may I suggest that the question be

23 put to the witness again, so that there is no misunderstanding.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you need to put the question again and

25 we'll hear her answer. And I would also like to have an explanation of

Page 7165

1 what this "Yoy" means.


3 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, what you were able to hear coming from the room

4 where the male prisoners were kept, could you tell us again what it was

5 that you heard, the types of sounds that you heard.

6 A. I heard, for example, people moaning and heard that they were

7 beaten up, but what else should I know about that? I heard them moan

8 sometimes. They were certainly being beaten up, they didn't moan for no

9 reason.

10 Q. And how often did you hear this?

11 A. How often? Well, sometimes you could hear it, sometimes not.

12 Depending on who would -- who would come there.

13 Q. Was this on a daily basis, or not?

14 A. How should I know?

15 Q. Did you hear it more than once?

16 A. I heard it two or three times.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to the question, Did

19 you hear it every day, the witness replied, Not every day, how could I have

20 heard it every day. But this wasn't entered in the transcript. I'm not

21 talking to you, witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Nikolic, try to answer me this time.

23 You were asked, a short while ago, the following question: How often did

24 you hear this moaning, and you said -- how often did you hear this, and you

25 said: How often? Well, sometimes you could hear it, sometimes not.

Page 7166

1 Depending on who would -- who would come.

2 Then Madam Richardson asked you again: Was this on a daily

3 basis, or not? Could you repeat your answer to that question, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the cries are concerned,

5 they were beaten up. I don't know which troops beat them up, but I heard

6 moans. But I can't tell you everything at the time. They were certainly

7 beaten up, the men.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But how many times did you hear the moaning?

9 Did you hear it on a daily basis? Was it every day or was it sporadic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not every day, but sometimes. So

11 they weren't -- they weren't beaten every day, but sometimes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, back to you.

13 There is another -- I had noticed it actually, it's -- I am sure

14 that this will be corrected later on, at one time the witness said "Ratko

15 knows" and instead we have "Brat" something else. It is page 58, line 12.

16 Thank you. Let's continue.


18 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, you used the term in your testimony "Yo", at least

19 that is how --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: "Yoy".

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. "Yoy" in your language, could you just tell us what that means?

23 A. It has to be. So when you beat someone, the one beaten says

24 "Yoy", what else should they say?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough, I think.

Page 7167

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, indeed. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed with your next question.


4 Q. Did you hear the moaning during the day or during the evening, do

5 you recall?

6 A. We didn't hear it at night, sometimes in the daytime.

7 Q. Now, I would just like to turn your attention to the treatment of

8 the women in the prison, and if you could tell us how the women were

9 treated during the time that you were in the prison.

10 A. They were mistreating the women with knives, with rifles, they

11 were mistreating them as women.

12 Q. Let's take the first example you gave us, with respect to the

13 knives. Could you tell us exactly what happened with respect to how the

14 women were treated, and you just made reference to knives. Could you

15 recall what happened specifically?

16 A. It happened, for example, they would come and someone would put a

17 pistol against you or your body, or a rifle, or a knife. But you have to

18 keep quiet, what could you do?

19 Q. And how -- I will rephrase the question. When you say "someone

20 would put a pistol against you", did they say anything as they were doing

21 this? And do you recall who did this to you, and how the person was

22 dressed?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are having a problem hearing

24 the witness, especially the first part of her answer. If the technicians

25 could be asked to remedy that.

Page 7168

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank the interpreters. I imagined so,

2 frankly. Let's do two things.

3 Usher, I don't know if it is possible to bring the -- either the

4 witness nearer to the microphones or the microphones nearer to the witness

5 and lower them a little bit, please, yes. I think that should do the

6 trick.

7 The other thing is this: Madam Nikolic, I can tell you that you

8 have been extremely cooperative and I do appreciate that you have been

9 sitting there for a long time and that, in this process, you tend to get

10 tired.

11 We are trying to do this here, your testimony, as quickly as we

12 can so that we can send you home, and we are trying to do our utmost to

13 make you feel comfortable. There is just one little problem that I see and

14 that is that sometimes, probably because you are tired, you are not

15 speaking loud enough for the interpreters to hear what you are saying. You

16 see now that I have tried to move the microphones nearer to you.

17 What I would like you to do now is to raise your voice a little

18 bit more while you are giving your answers, and that will make the task of

19 the interpreters, which is already difficult in itself, a little bit

20 lighter. All right?

21 Yes. I think you can move to the next question. And I think you

22 need to repeat the question, basically, I mean, because the interpreters

23 didn't catch the answer.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. I will, Your Honour, I will repeat

25 the question.

Page 7169

1 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, you mentioned an incident with -- or it could have

2 been on more than one occasion. Please tell us, what happened with respect

3 to the women and someone coming to the cell with a knife? Could you tell

4 us -- give us a little bit more detail about when this occurred and what

5 happened exactly.

6 A. It wasn't once, it was several times. They would take a knife.

7 They would bring it up to your ears and then throw it into the floor, and

8 then take up the knife again, brings up to -- bring it up to your ear

9 again. And it happened several times.

10 Q. Did they say anything as this was being done? Did they say

11 anything to you or the other women?

12 A. Yes, they did. They did that to everybody in the room where we

13 were.

14 Q. And you said there was another incident with a pistol. I believe

15 that is the word you used. Correct me if I'm wrong.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us what happened during that particular incident,

18 and if anything was said?

19 A. He took a pistol and put it against my forehead. I was quiet.

20 And he said, "I'll kill you" and then I said, "Well, kill me. What can I

21 do?" And all the while, he was pressing his pistol against my forehead.

22 Q. Were there any other incidents where you were threatened

23 yourself, either personally or the other women that you recall?

24 A. No. There were no other women anywhere but in that room.

25 Q. All right. And --

Page 7170

1 MS. RICHARDSON: One moment, Your Honour.

2 Q. Do you recall if they were wearing uniforms, the individuals who

3 would come into the room with knives and the pistol?

4 MR. JONES: Or not.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What would they be wearing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


8 Q. How were they dressed?

9 A. They had shirts and trousers. That was the clothes they were

10 wearing.

11 Q. And was this civilian clothing or military clothing?

12 A. Military clothes.

13 Q. I would like to move to another subject matter, and this is with

14 respect to any visitors that you may have had during the time. When I say

15 "you", I mean the women in the cell, yourself and the other women that were

16 held in the cell. Do you recall if anyone visited you during that period

17 of time?

18 A. We were visited. Zulfo came to our house, and Krdza, to ask us

19 where we were going, what we were doing there.

20 Q. All right. Let's take it one by one. When you say "Zulfo", who

21 is Zulfo? And did you know Zulfo prior to his visiting the cell?

22 A. I didn't know him until the moment I was captured. And Zulfo was

23 a good man. He came to ask us what we were doing. He called us "nannies",

24 and Krdza also came.

25 Q. All right. We will deal with Krdza in a moment. But with

Page 7171

1 respect to Zulfo, you said you didn't know him. How did you know his name

2 was Zulfo?

3 A. I didn't know him until I was put in prison. That's when I saw

4 him. That's when I heard him.

5 Q. Had you seen him prior to this? Did you recognise him?

6 A. No, no, I didn't see him.

7 Q. All right. When you say you didn't know him, to be --

8 A. I didn't know him. I didn't know him at all.

9 Q. All right. What, if anything, did you learn about Zulfo?

10 A. I did not ask any questions. I didn't know anything about him.

11 Q. Who -- if you could listen to my question very carefully. You

12 said the person -- Zulfo visited you.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did you know the person --

15 A. He did come and visit us. That's what I said.

16 Q. All right. How did you know his name was Zulfo?

17 A. I heard it from his soldiers.

18 Q. Do you know his last name?

19 A. I don't know his last name.

20 Q. Do you remember what he looked like? Could you give us a

21 description of him?

22 A. He was big. Not tall. He was a big man, a heavily-built man.

23 Q. Did Zulfo say anything to you personally during the time he

24 visited?

25 A. No, not to me personally. He just called us "grannies" and asked

Page 7172

1 us what we were doing, and how we were, and so on.

2 Q. Did he ask you anything else?

3 A. No. I don't know that he asked us anything. No, he did not ask

4 us anything. He just said a few words to us, and left.

5 Q. Did he ask you -- if you could just think --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: Well, the witness was asked, "Did he ask you anything

8 else?" and she said, "No. I don't know that he asked us anything." So I

9 would object to my learned friend suggesting something which he might have

10 asked her when she's clearly answered that she doesn't know -- that he

11 didn't say anything else, or that she certainly doesn't recall him saying

12 anything else.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's hear the question first and then we

14 will decide whether to take your objection, or whether we will proceed.

15 But I am sure you have understood exactly the -- Mr. Jones' objection --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I did.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- which is certainly a very valid one.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I did.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. A pertinent one. Whether it is valid or not

20 depends on what your question is going to be.


22 Q. I would like to -- I would like you, Mrs. Nikolic, to think Zulfo

23 Tursunovic and his visit to the prison?

24 MR. JONES: She never said it was Zulfo Tursunovic. In fact, we

25 had evidence of another Zulfo.

Page 7173

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You're 100 per cent right, Mr. Jones.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I apologize, that was certainly not

3 intentional.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


6 Q. You mentioned Zulfo visited you at the prison. Please think back

7 to the number of times -- well, I will rephrase the question. How many

8 times did he visit?

9 A. Several times.

10 Q. The first time he visited, what, if anything, did he say?

11 A. He did not say much. He just asked us what we were doing, how we

12 were. He called us grannies. He did not ask us any questions.

13 Q. Did you say anything to him?

14 A. I just jokingly asked him, Commander, why I am here? And he

15 said, I was confined for 14 years, and you can't be confined for two

16 months? And he says -- and then I said, I don't know why you were confined.

17 I don't know why I am confined. And he says, Well, I was confined for 14

18 years, and he just laughed. It was said jokingly.

19 Q. Did you know what he was referring to, this confinement for 14

20 years? Did you know what he was talking about?

21 A. How should I know? I don't know what he was talking about. I

22 don't know when this was. And it was -- all this happened 12 years ago.

23 Q. The next time Zulfo visited, do you recall what, if anything, he

24 said to you or the other women in the prison?

25 A. Nobody offended him. Nobody told him anything bad to offend him,

Page 7174

1 none of us did.

2 Q. You stated -- you testified previously that he asked how you were

3 doing. What did you or the other women tell him?

4 A. We said we were all right. What else could we have said to him

5 when he asked us how we were?

6 Q. Did he ask about the welfare of anyone else, how anyone else was

7 doing?

8 A. How do I know? How should I know that? He came to the women's

9 room and sometimes he would go to the men's room. He was a good man. He

10 was a good man and he treated us well and he behaved well.

11 Q. After he went -- you testified that he would go to the men's

12 room. Did he ask you - when I say "you", you or the other women - anything

13 after visiting the men's room?

14 A. He went to the men's room and when he came back from that room he

15 talked to us. And he says, What happened? All the men have been killed.

16 And we didn't know. That's what he told us when he came back from the

17 men's room.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

19 said killed or beaten.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And after that, when he told us

21 that, the men were not beaten again. This is the only thing that he told

22 us.


24 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, just for clarification, when Zulfo -- after he

25 visited the men's room, what did he ask you and the other women about the

Page 7175

1 men?

2 A. He asked, how come that all the men had been beaten.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter believes that the witness said.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And we said, we don't know how this

5 came about.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think this is a good time to take

7 a break.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Nikolic, we are going to have

9 another 30-minute break and then it will be a short session and you will go

10 home. In fact, I think it -- I mean, putting myself in your shoes, my

11 cross-examination would last very little, Mr. Jones.

12 MR. JONES: I don't think I can.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I go home now? Can I go home?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, not yet. I will soon send you home. Don't

15 worry.

16 MR. JONES: I don't think I can undertake to finish today when

17 Ms. Richardson, my learned friend, has not finished her examination-in-

18 chief. That would leave me with something in the range of, I don't know,

19 15 minutes or something. I can't undertake to finish in 15 minutes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, the position is as follows: What happens

21 tomorrow? Because this lady will be here for a very short while more. I

22 mean it's ...

23 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologize, Your Honour. I believe I can

24 certainly try to finish with this witness in the next 10 or 15 minutes tops

25 after the break.

Page 7176

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's see. And what happens tomorrow? Is

2 the other witness here?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question, Your

4 Honour. We're not prepared to go forward with the other witness tomorrow.

5 Unfortunately, he could not be brought here in time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a break. Madam Nikolic, I will give you

7 30 minutes break now so that you rest, and then we will do our utmost to

8 see if we can finish.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well then.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can't finish today, you will be here a little

11 bit more tomorrow, and then you can go. Thank you. 30 minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Richardson.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, before the break, you testified that Krdza also

17 visited in addition to Zulfo. Could you tell us about his visits, tell us

18 how often he visited, and what was generally the conversation that he had

19 with the women and yourself.

20 A. He did not come once, he came several times, and he spoke to us

21 nicely, just like the other, Zulfo. He was nice to us and he did not come

22 only once, he came several times. He was a nice man. He did not ill treat

23 us.

24 Q. Did there come a time that you were -- I will rephrase the

25 question. Did there come a time that the women that were held with you

Page 7177

1 were released?

2 A. Yes. We were all released on one day.

3 Q. Do you remember that day? What day it was? Or the month?

4 A. I think that it was on the 7th of February.

5 Q. Now, prior to that day when you were exchanged, did there --

6 prior to that day, were any of the other women that were held with you --

7 A. We were exchanged. No women stayed behind.

8 Q. I understand that. But prior to the women being exchanged, was

9 there ever a period of time that other women, including the little girl,

10 were released, or left the cell?

11 A. Are you referring to the girl called Sandra or to the girl Stana

12 who was wounded? This is what I'm asking you now.

13 Q. All right. Well, let's take it one step at a time. Was Stana

14 released with you, the one who was wounded?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were any -- you mentioned another name, that other person. Was

17 she released with you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was the little girl released with you?

20 A. No women were left behind when we were released. There were 21

21 of us who were released on that day.

22 Q. All right. But before that day, did the little girl leave the

23 prison?

24 A. Yes. But Sandra did not leave the prison. She was always with

25 her mother. She always clung to her mother.

Page 7178

1 Q. And were -- the little girl and her mother, were they exchanged

2 on the exact same day you were? Or did they leave before?

3 A. They were all exchanged. Stana and her mother, they left before

4 us, a day. And then Sandra and her mother, they left before as well.

5 Q. All right. Could you tell us about that? How was it that they

6 left before, if you know?

7 A. I don't know why they left. I can't tell you. I can't tell you

8 why they were let go. I believe that they left some seven days before us.

9 They were released.

10 Q. Did anyone come to -- during -- excuse me, I will rephrase the

11 question.

12 When they were released, did anyone come to the cell and make any

13 --

14 MR. JONES: It's getting very leading.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I will rephrase. I'll do this

17 another way.



20 Q. You mentioned that the little girl and her mother left before.

21 A. Yes, yes, yes, before.

22 Q. Do you know why those two left before you and the other women?

23 A. They left, the two of them, to be exchanged for two soldiers.

24 And this little girl would be free to go to Skelani, and in Skelani she was

25 to hand over a piece of paper that they gave her and she was to be

Page 7179

1 exchanged for two soldiers. That's why they were released before us.

2 Q. And the little boy, Branko, was he released with you, or before?

3 A. Branko stayed with us. He was released with us. His mother came

4 to Skelani, she took him over, and then she took him away.

5 Q. Was Branko's -- I will rephrase. Branko's relative, I believe

6 you may have testified that his grandmother was in the prison with you.

7 A. Yes, she was, but his grandmother went to Skelani as a courier

8 and she never returned. And that's why Branko stayed with us, on his own.

9 Q. On these two occasions when Branko's grandmother left and the

10 little girl and her mother left, did anyone come to the prison cell to talk

11 about why they were leaving?

12 MR. JONES: Again, it's a very leading question.


14 MR. JONES: If my learned friend wants to ask if any other people

15 ever visited the cell, in fact, that question has been asked and she

16 answered Zulfo and Krdza. She didn't mention anyone else. But if there is

17 to be an open question as to whether she recalls anyone else visiting the

18 cell, but to put the exact circumstances in which someone might have come,

19 is suggesting to the witness that she's to remember a specific incident.

20 I'd prefer if it could be put in a completely non-leading manner. I think

21 we know what it is about and it is very important.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And at this stage particularly, in anticipation of

23 what you are going to ask and all of the information that you are seeking,

24 definitely, Mr. Jones is right. You need to rephrase it in a way that is

25 definitely not leading.

Page 7180

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I will rephrase it, Your Honour.

2 Q. Do you recall Branko's mother -- grandmother, excuse me, leaving?

3 You said she left.

4 A. I do recall.

5 Q. Do you remember the circumstances or whether or not -- I will

6 rephrase the question again. Do you recall whether any information --

7 A. She left as a courier, Branko's grandmother that is. She was

8 supposed to take mail to Skelani, their mail to Skelani, and she was

9 supposed to return, but she never returned.

10 Q. My question, Mrs. Nikolic, is whether or not someone told her, as

11 far as you know, what to do with respect to the mail. Do you recall?

12 A. The one who sent her knows why he sent her.

13 Q. And the person who sent her, do you recall who that was and how

14 this person -- and if this person came to the cell and how he was dressed?

15 A. I don't know, I don't know.

16 Q. The person that sent her, did he come to the cell, do you recall?

17 A. I remember. He was in a military uniform. He brought a letter.

18 He told her to go to Skelani to take that letter to Skelani and come back,

19 but she never did. She never came back.

20 Q. All right. How did you come to learn about -- I will bring you

21 now to the subject matter of your own exchange and the exchange of the

22 other women in February. How did you come to learn about your exchange?

23 A. We learned on Friday when our names were listed, all the

24 prisoners were listed, and then they went to Skelani in order to arrange

25 for an exchange that was supposed to take place there.

Page 7181

1 Q. And who told you you were going to be exchanged?

2 A. Krdza told us, he told us, and a soldier of his. He told us,

3 Grandmothers, you will be going home. Our men and their men were today in

4 Skelani together.

5 Q. And this -- excuse me. And this Krdza, do you recall if, during

6 the times he visited and in addition to the time he talked about the

7 exchange, whether he was dressed in military clothing or in civilian

8 clothing?

9 A. Military clothing.

10 Q. And who was it that listed your names?

11 A. They had Serbian names. I don't know what his name was, but they

12 called him Buda. He made a list of our names on Friday, and on Saturday

13 the exchange took place. He took that list of names to Skelani and we were

14 exchanged in Skelani.

15 Q. And do you know -- excuse me, were there any men exchanged along

16 with yourself on that day?

17 A. Yes, three.

18 Q. Do you know the names of these men, or were they familiar to you

19 at that time?

20 A. I don't. They were from Skelani, and I don't know any of their

21 names.

22 Q. Do you recall what their appearance, their physical condition

23 was?

24 A. The men? They were -- the three of them? They were heavily

25 beaten up, the three of them, all the three of them.

Page 7182

1 Q. And who took you and -- yourself and the other women, including

2 these three men, and the three men, to the exchange? How did you get

3 there? And who escorted you?

4 A. There was a van from Srebrenica. A van took us from Srebrenica

5 to the exchange, from the prison in Srebrenica.

6 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, I just have a couple of other questions

7 for you. With regard to your home, could you tell us if you ever received

8 any compensation for the damage to your home?

9 A. We never received anything.

10 Q. Was it just your house that was burned, or did any other

11 structure burn as well?

12 A. My house was burnt, but no other house was left -- was spared in

13 the village. Only the house of Rado Nikolic, which had not been finished,

14 remained standing. Everything else had been burnt down.

15 Q. And this is with respect to all of the houses, the 25 houses in

16 Popovici?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Mrs. Nikolic. I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson.

21 Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Yes. I think I can -- I can certainly start now.

23 I'm not sure if I will finish --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Have I finished?

25 MR. JONES: -- because I might need to show some photographs,

Page 7183

1 which will take time to organise.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: If you will give me a moment just to get the lectern

4 on the desk.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

6 Now, Madam Nikolic, Mr. Jones is going to start with his

7 questions. You probably have heard what he said. He will do his best to

8 try and finish today, if he can. But it may be a little bit difficult

9 which would mean that you will go to the hotel, have a rest, return

10 tomorrow afternoon and we will finish in a few minutes and then we can send

11 you home.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean I can go home tomorrow?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if they can arrange for your transportation

14 tomorrow, you can definitely go home tomorrow.

15 Yes, it will be in the afternoon. I mean probably it will be

16 Wednesday. I don't know if there are any flights tomorrow -- tomorrow

17 evening out of Amsterdam to where you live. But I can assure you, Madam

18 Nikolic, that our staff will do their utmost to return you home at the

19 earliest possible time. In any case, I wish to confirm to you, I'm

20 confirming to you that tomorrow, within a few minutes after we start, you

21 will be finished.

22 Mr. Jones, you do have a cross-examination, in other words?

23 MR. JONES: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Then let's start.

25 MR. JONES: All right. I will try to make [Realtime transcript

Page 7184

1 read in error "fake"] it as quickly as possible.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

3 Q. Ms. Nikolic, first of all, I need to ask you a few more questions

4 --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This, I will not accept, Mr. Jones,

6 say it -- okay, they have changed it because the transcript said "I will

7 try to fake it as quickly as I can."

8 MR. JONES: That could be misconstrued in all sorts of way.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So please don't fake it.

10 MR. JONES: I will be nothing but genuine.

11 Q. Ms. Nikolic, firstly, I need to ask you a few more questions

12 about Mandici and Kravica and what you saw on the 7th and 8th of January.

13 Now, first, I'm not sure if you told us how far Mandici is from Popovici.

14 Can you just tell us how long it would take by foot to get to Mandici from

15 Popovici?

16 A. Half an hour.

17 Q. And in Mandici, are all the houses on the hill or just some of

18 them?

19 A. Yes. All of them are on the hill. They can be seen from our

20 village.

21 Q. All right. And I think you told us you saw houses in Mandici

22 burning on the 7th of January, 1993. You didn't see who, if anyone, set

23 fire to those houses, did you?

24 A. We saw the houses burning, and the people from Mandici who were

25 in our village with us also watched. We saw all the houses burning, but I

Page 7185

1 don't know who set fire to them.

2 Q. Right. And you didn't actually see someone physically setting

3 fire to houses in Mandici, did you?

4 A. No. I didn't even see it in my village, let alone in Mandici.

5 Q. Right. Thank you. You mentioned how cows were taken from, I

6 think you said, two households in Mandici. What, in fact, are we talking

7 about? Was there three or four cows?

8 A. Yes, I did say that.

9 Q. Just so we know, how many?

10 A. Two oxen and cows were driven away. They belonged to Obramovic

11 and Risto. It was at 5 p.m. when the cattle was driven away and the

12 village was burning.

13 Q. Right. And again, you don't know, do you, who drove the cattle

14 away?

15 A. How should we have known?

16 Q. Now, as far as Kravica is concerned, Kravica is in fact a large

17 village, isn't it?

18 A. Yes. Kravica is in the valley. It is not on a hill. It's in

19 the valley.

20 Q. And it comprises many houses spread over a large area. Would you

21 agree?

22 A. Yes. In Kravica there were many houses along the road, on

23 various sides.

24 Q. Right. Now, you've told us you didn't see Kravica on the 7th of

25 January, 1993, but you passed through on the 8th of January. Now, when you

Page 7186

1 passed --

2 A. Yes, I passed there on the 8th of January.

3 Q. Right. And you're not saying, are you, that you saw all the

4 houses in Kravica and that you saw that every single one of them had been

5 burnt to the ground, are you?

6 A. Nothing was standing in Kravica when I passed there on January

7 8th.

8 Q. But you saw only a part of Kravica, would you agree? In other

9 words you didn't see every house in Kravica that day, did you? You saw a

10 portion of Kravica?

11 A. We did see a portion of Kravica, the part of the village where we

12 went through. But there were other houses in Kravica also, but we couldn't

13 see them all.

14 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of how many damaged houses you

15 saw? How many houses were damaged by fire on that day?

16 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you how many were damaged. I

17 wasn't there to see troops burning houses. I saw -- I just saw houses

18 burning.

19 Q. But did you see houses burning? Or you saw some houses which had

20 burnt down?

21 A. I saw my house burn. And when I entered the house, it was all in

22 flames, from the ground floor to the roof. And all the houses burned like

23 mine and I watched my house burn.

24 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Nikolic, I'm not going to dwell on this but

25 we're talking about Kravica now, the village of Kravica. And are you

Page 7187

1 saying that you saw every single house in Kravica burnt to the ground? Or

2 are you saying that you saw some houses in Kravica which had been damaged

3 by fire?

4 A. We passed Kravica, and I saw everything and the part of the

5 village that we went through. And certainly, the other part of the village

6 wouldn't have been spared if they burnt this one, they must have burnt the

7 other one also.

8 Q. Well, we don't want you to make assumptions, Ms. Nikolic, or to

9 speculate. We only want to know what you yourself saw. So I take it from

10 your answer that you saw part of the village, but you didn't see the other

11 part of Kravica? In other words, the part you went through is all you saw?

12 A. [No audible response].

13 Q. All right. I will move on.

14 MR. JONES: I'm going to have to return to the subject with some

15 photographs of Kravica tomorrow, just to clarify this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if -- we were discussing, Judge Eser and

17 myself, a short while ago, and I explained that once you start the cross-

18 examination, we usually avoid interrupting you and we let you go, obviously

19 because that's how it should be. But if it is convenient for you to stop

20 at this stage, we would give the opportunity to the witness to go to the

21 hotel a little bit earlier. Tomorrow she is going to be in the witness

22 box, it seems, for a while, not too long. And we shall be 20 minutes later

23 tomorrow.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, I think this is a very sensible suggestion.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is better and we'll stop now and we will

Page 7188

1 send her home.

2 MR. JONES: Yes. That's an excellent idea.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Nikolic, if you prefer to take the next

4 20 minutes and finish what you need to finish today, you can --

5 MR. JONES: That's fine. I think there is no need to fatigue the

6 witness any further today.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I sense that she is tired and she is getting tired

8 by the hour, you know, or by the minute. So, Madam Nikolic, we are going

9 to stop here today so that you can go to your hotel and --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- have dinner and rest. Tomorrow, we will start

12 at 2.15 here and I reckon that you will be testifying for a very short

13 while.

14 So in the meantime, if it is at all possible to make arrangements

15 to have her transferred over tomorrow, then go ahead. If not, then we will

16 still give her an opportunity to stay here, very little tomorrow.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I understand, Your Honour. We will contact the

18 Victims and Witnesses Unit.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Obviously it doesn't depend on you. All

20 right. Thank you. We stand adjourned until tomorrow afternoon.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.45 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

23 April, 2005 at 2.15 p.m.