Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7560

1 Monday, 25 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you following the proceedings in a language that you

11 can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen, yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and also good afternoon

17 to the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution,

18 I am here together with co-counsel Ms. Patricia Sellers, and Ms. Joanne

19 Richardson, as well as our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you and your team.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23 Vasvija Vidovic and Mr. John Jones, appearing on behalf of Mr. Naser Oric.

24 We have with us today is our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, as well as

25 our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 7561

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to you

2 and your team.

3 So I understand there are some preliminaries.

4 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Just to update you further and the

6 Defence team, we would like to provide you with a new updated witness list

7 for the weeks to come. May I ask the assistance of the usher, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This chain of custody evidence, what is it about?

9 Which chain of custody are you referring to? Witnesses 40 -- witnesses

10 50, 51, 50, 52 --

11 MR. WUBBEN: And 53, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And 53.

13 MR. WUBBEN: 50. These are all documents already put into

14 evidence in which the Defence team has questions and argued that chain of

15 custody didn't show information to the full extent with a view to the

16 chain. When it comes to 52, 53, it is the Sokolac collection, and 50 it

17 is the Banja Luka collection documents.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I was -- I was thinking -- obviously I don't know

19 how much information is entailed, although I see three hours, three hours,

20 three hours, three hours. But why don't we do it in a different way? Why

21 don't you prepare written statements -- these persons are available here

22 or -- in The Hague or are they --

23 MR. WUBBEN: They are available for -- well, this is of course our

24 tentative list. We have to schedule for --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I was going to suggest, Madam Vidovic and

Page 7562

1 Mr. Jones, that these three, four witnesses -- three or four, I don't know

2 whether they are three or four --

3 MR. WUBBEN: Yeah, three, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Three, will make a written statement which will be

5 filed and presented under the Rule 92 bis. And then if they are made

6 available in good time, you will just indicate whether you want to

7 cross-examine these either -- any or all of these three witnesses. I

8 reckon instead of having three days, we can do this probably in one day,

9 if it is agreeable to you. I mean as far as Rule 92 bis statement

10 examination-in-chief in the form of a statement is concerned, it's up to

11 you. I mean, I can't enforce it of course. I can enforce it if I want

12 to, but I don't mean to enforce it unless you really want to do it. And

13 provided it is acceptable also to -- to the Defence, who can then limit

14 their cross-examination to the basis -- if at all necessary, because you

15 might come to the conclusion that there is enough information that you

16 don't need to cross-examine any or all of these witnesses. That's up to

17 you. Think about it, Mr. Wubben. I mean, I know --

18 MR. WUBBEN: We'll think about it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I have caught both of you maybe on the wrong

20 foot, so I don't surprise anyone or expect an answer today. We'll talk

21 about it tomorrow. But I think it can be done, I mean, without any

22 problems at all.

23 MR. WUBBEN: We will do, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 Yes. We will continue with this witness now.

Page 7563

1 May I refer you to witness number 44 on this list that you have

2 just filed and remind you that if you are seeking the -- to keep in place

3 the protective measures that were granted to this witness in the

4 beginning, you need to file a written motion.

5 MR. WUBBEN: In that respect, we will do so. Thank you, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But please do notice that if this witness is

8 due to start supposedly on the 2nd of May, you need to do that fairly

9 quickly. All right?

10 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.


12 Usher -- I'm sorry, are there any preliminary issues that you

13 would like to raise, Defence?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There are none, Your Honours. But

15 we would like to ask the OTP to do whatever is within their power to give

16 us as soon as possible the testimonies of these witnesses, especially

17 Witness Number 51, and to provide these in the Bosnian language as soon as

18 possible, namely we need to consult our client on these matters

19 beforehand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm saying maybe you can deal with 50,

21 52, and 53 in a -- in the format that I suggested because 51, I would

22 imagine, is a very important witness, and you will probably need much more

23 than the five hours that you are indicating here.

24 Anyway, it's up to you. Tell us -- come back to us tomorrow.

25 Let's see what happened to the witness.

Page 7564

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, for cross-examination, Madam Vidovic, how much

3 time do you require? Today for sure and tomorrow?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it depends on how many

6 documents or new matters will be raised by the Prosecution. My idea was

7 for this cross-examination to be brought to an end within three and a half

8 or four hours. However, if the OTP introduces new documents, raising new

9 issues, that probably means I'll take longer than I expected to

10 cross-examine.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

12 Good afternoon to you. Welcome back. Again, two things: Please

13 do -- I am reminding you that you are testifying under oath. Secondly, if

14 there are problems with interpretation, let me know straight away. You

15 may sit down, and we will start immediately so as not to lose more time.

16 Yes, Ms. Richardson, how long do you think you will need to finish

17 your in-chief?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I assured the Court that I will move

19 expediently and I will try to wrap up --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Expeditiously.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Expeditiously as well, Your Honour. And I will

22 try to wrap up before the next break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that means the witness will be here

24 tomorrow.

25 Okay. Let's -- I'll stop you if I think you're covering areas

Page 7565

1 which we've covered already or which don't need as much coverage as you've

2 been giving some.

3 Yes, Ms. Richardson.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Becirovic. Last Thursday you were testifying

8 about the use of the radio IC-745 which communications or messages were

9 sent -- which radio was located in the PTT building. I'd like to draw

10 your attention to this specific matter and ask you whether or not members

11 of the Territorial Defence used this radio while you were at the PTT

12 building.

13 A. The radio that was used there was 751. I think you said 745 --

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. I must say that members of the Territorial Defence, in cases where

16 they tried to stay in touch with their families using this equipment,

17 their families that were this Tuzla further afield, had the chance of

18 using the equipment under my control, if I may put it that way.

19 Q. Which members of the territorial staff used the equipment? Please

20 give us their names.

21 A. No exception. All of them had an opportunity to make use of the

22 equipment.

23 Q. Could you give us the names of the individuals that you recalled

24 who used the equipment?

25 A. For example, Mr. Naser Oric used my services to keep in contact

Page 7566

1 with his family. His family was in Slovenia at the time.

2 Q. And when -- could you tell us about the circumstances surrounding

3 the use of Mr. -- of the radio by Mr. Naser Oric to contact his family.

4 First tell us when did he come to the PTT building, if that's where this

5 in fact occurred?

6 A. I can't remember all the dates. It occurred every once in a

7 while, perhaps once a month or even less. That's how often he came to get

8 in touch with his family.

9 Q. Do you recall what month and what year?

10 A. If I remember correctly, the first time was in the month of

11 August, but I can't be sure. It may have been September 1992 as well. As

12 time went by and depending on the situation that prevailed in Srebrenica

13 municipality, he came less and less often. I suppose the reason was that

14 his presence was far more required elsewhere.

15 Q. Let's talk about when the first time -- when was the first time

16 that he came to the PTT building. Could you tell us about the

17 circumstances.

18 A. He said he wanted to call his family. I don't think he knew at

19 the time how the radio device was supposed to be operated or how

20 communication could be established using the radio. I had the feeling

21 that I could be of service to him the very moment he came, and I think he

22 was surprised when I explained to him that this was in fact not the case,

23 when I explained how this equipment functioned, that I should first locate

24 a ham radio operator based in Slovenia who was willing to make a phone

25 call to his wife to make contact, or maybe tell his wife to come and see

Page 7567

1 him at his flat, this ham radio operator's flat, depending on where he

2 worked from, where he was based. Then a time was to be set. This ham

3 radio operator was supposed to inform my -- me as the communications

4 officer on our side, and then I would tell Naser Oric when communication

5 could be established.

6 Naser Oric was perhaps puzzled at the time to hear this

7 explanation, but he accepted it as a fact. It was soon after, perhaps two

8 or three days after, I really can't remember, it took me a couple of days

9 to arrange this and get in touch with the ham radio operator in Crnomelj

10 called Miralem. Miralem said that he was willing to do this. He made a

11 phone call to Mr. Naser Oric's wife. He agreed with her for her to go

12 from Ljubljana to Crnomelj. He informed me about this and then I in turn

13 informed Naser Oric that two or three days later was the time, and we

14 should set a specific time for him to talk to his wife, and that was what

15 happened.

16 Q. And how often did he come to the PTT building to establish

17 communication with his wife in Ljubljana?

18 A. It's been a long time. My impression is once a month or less, but

19 I can't be certain.

20 Q. Did Mr. Oric use the radio to contact anyone else?

21 A. In 1993, I think February of 1993, he once used the radio to get

22 in touch with a person called Munja who was in Tuzla. And once he used it

23 to get in touch with President Alija Izetbegovic, the president of the

24 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Let's take this one at a time. Regarding his communication with

Page 7568

1 Munja in Tuzla, could you tell the Trial Chamber about those set of

2 circumstances when he contacted this individual? And please also tell us

3 the year. I believe you've already said February of 1993, excuse me, so

4 just tell us about the circumstances.

5 A. This happened at a time when the Serbs were carrying out a heavy

6 offensive against Cerska, Kamenica, and Konjevic Polje. Naser Oric called

7 Munja from Konjevic Polje following a request by Munja through his club

8 4-BMN. Nada sat next to the radio equipment in Tuzla. They talked once

9 or twice, I'm not sure. Munja wanted to know about the situation in

10 Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica. If I remember correctly, and I believe I

11 do remember the gist of their conversation, Naser requested that the armed

12 forces from Tuzla and the broader Tuzla region get involved a bit more

13 seriously in trying to lift the blockade of the free territory of

14 Srebrenica; that was the crux of their conversation.

15 Munja appeared to be hopeful that something could be done, but we

16 now know that nothing in fact happened at the time except what Munja tried

17 to explain, what he in fact said.

18 Q. And who is Munja? Do you recall who he was? Any position that he

19 held in Tuzla and any organisation he was affiliated with?

20 A. I'm not sure about his real name. I only know the person's

21 nickname, Munja. I don't know what his affiliations were, but based on

22 the promises he made back then that the army based in Tuzla would do

23 something about the Srebrenica situation, my assumption was that he may

24 have been a member of the armed forces in the Tuzla area. But I must say

25 this again, I simply don't know whether he was or not.

Page 7569

1 Q. And you testified that he contacted or -- let me rephrase the

2 question.

3 Was he the one who initiated contact with Naser Oric and could you

4 tell us how it was that he did that?

5 A. Yes. Munja initiated contact -- this is how it happened. Nada

6 from 4-BMN, it was a radio club in Tuzla, called me to tell me that there

7 was a gentleman who requested to talk to Naser.

8 Q. And how did you learn his name was Munja?

9 A. Nada told me. She was the one who told me. She said, Munja is

10 the person. First she asked me, that's if I remember correctly, if I knew

11 who the person was. And then as we continued -- when we got in touch,

12 when we introduced himself, he said that his nickname was Munja.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the word actually means

14 lightning, a bolt of lightning.


16 Q. And who scheduled the time for the telephone -- excuse me, for the

17 discussion between Munja and Naser Oric?

18 A. I really can't remember all the details now. One thing I can say

19 though is the moment someone asked me to get in contact with Naser or

20 anyone else, I was not given to promising anything, or the other way

21 around. It may have been the case the if Naser said that he was in a

22 position to be near the radio device at a given time, that he was the one

23 who actually set the time for their contact.

24 Q. Was Naser Oric known by any other name during this time that

25 you -- that he used the radio?

Page 7570

1 A. Yes. I think at the time the nickname he was using was Gazda,

2 boss.

3 Q. And did Nada or anyone else refer to him by this name?

4 A. There was no need for Nada to talk to Naser. Whenever Nada and I

5 established a line of communication, we'd just hand the mikes over to

6 Munja on Nada's side or Naser on my side, and they would do the talking.

7 Q. When was this name used, Gazda?

8 A. Throughout this conversation.

9 Q. What, if anything, did Naser Oric say to Munja?

10 A. I explained a while ago that Naser had asked Munja that the armed

11 forces from Tuzla do something to help lift the blockade of the three

12 territories of Cerska, Kamenica, Konjevic Polje, and Srebrenica in order

13 to make life easier for the people who remained in the area.

14 Q. How many conversations did he have with Munja to your knowledge

15 and was it all -- was this all in February of 1993 or some time the next

16 month?

17 A. I think two or three, possibly four but not more. All of their

18 conversations occurred within a single month. Those were brief

19 conversations, and I didn't realise at the time that they had led to

20 anything. It was necessary to try to do something to help the people who

21 had been subjected to heavy attacks in the area of Konjevic Polje, Cerska,

22 and Srebrenica, and that's what I believe the conversations were actually

23 about.

24 Q. You testified that he -- that Naser Oric also contacted

25 Izetbegovic. Could you tell the Trial Chamber about the circumstances of

Page 7571

1 that communication and when that in fact occurred?

2 A. Again, I can't give you a date, I think it was in early March 2003

3 [as interpreted]. There was an enemy offensive against Srebrenica, a

4 furious one at the time. Many women, civilians, and soldiers or killed.

5 There was a great number of casualties and a general state of confusion

6 where it was impossible to tell whether you would make it to the next day,

7 whether anyone would. So those were the circumstances when Naser talked

8 to President Izetbegovic.

9 In this conversation, he told the president about the situation in

10 Srebrenica and asked for help. I'm not sure if he actually defined the

11 kind of help that he was seeking, but I think he said any sort of help

12 just to stop the attacks and to stop the killing.

13 Q. And did there come a time -- how many conversations did he have

14 with Izetbegovic?

15 A. There was just one conversation.

16 Q. And did there come a time, Mr. Becirovic, that you arranged for

17 another conversation -- another contact wherein Mr. Oric had a

18 conversation with someone in Sarajevo?

19 A. Naser Oric never talked to anyone else in Sarajevo, with the

20 exception of President Izetbegovic. Had it been necessary, it would have

21 been possible to arrange.

22 Q. Other than in -- in 1993, other than President Izetbegovic, who

23 else did he speak with, other than Izetbegovic and Munja; do you recall?

24 A. Yes. I apologise, Your Honours. There was another contact that

25 Naser Oric made. He got in touch with Sefer Halilovic. It escaped me a

Page 7572

1 while ago when I said he hadn't talked to anyone else. I think this was

2 also in March, early March, I think, 1993. The gist of the conversation

3 was the same as the one with President Izetbegovic. There was a difficult

4 situation and one had to find a way to overcome this situation and to help

5 people in the Srebrenica area, in part of the Srebrenica area. People

6 needed help in order to survive, because February and March are known as

7 months when people starved in the area. The situation was worsening

8 severely concerning hygiene, and there were continual onslaughts by the

9 Serb forces. There were artillery attacks and infantry attacks, and

10 infection spread throughout the area as well. It was a situation that

11 could no longer be allowed to continue.

12 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber about the -- could you tell the

13 Trial Chamber what was discussed between Naser Oric and Mr. Halilovic?

14 A. As I said a while ago, the gist of the conversation was the same

15 as the one that he had with President Izetbegovic. It was an appeal for

16 help, it was an appeal to stop the killing and to put an end to this state

17 of chaos.

18 Q. When you say "an appeal for help," was there any specific request

19 made by Naser Oric or any specific response?

20 A. I said any sort of help, any form of help, which would not have

21 precluded the possibility for the armed forces in the area of Tuzla to set

22 out and try to help lift the blockade of Srebrenica. This was seen at the

23 time as the best way, but perhaps there were other ways that people had in

24 mind.

25 Q. Was it a request for food, do you recall? Did that request

Page 7573

1 include food? Or was it only military assistance?

2 MR. JONES: Sorry -- he said it was an appeal for any help, so I

3 don't see how it could be a request which was only for military

4 assistance. The request is already as broad-ranging as it can possibly

5 be. I don't object to the first part of the question whether food as

6 requested, but it wouldn't be correct to characterise what has been said

7 so far as a request only for military assistance.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones is correct.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, believe I phrased the question as

10 an "or." Food or military assistance. And I believe based on what --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you're limited. In other words, you are

12 just -- while the witness said "any form of help," and he repeated it

13 twice, and any kind of help that would try to help lift the blockade of

14 Srebrenica, you're just limiting it to food or military assistance, which

15 is not right. I mean, just --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. Thanks.


19 Q. What kind of help was discussed or requested or promised, if that

20 was the case?

21 A. As I said, Mr. Naser Oric briefly described the situation that

22 prevailed in the three municipalities of Bratunac, Zvornik, Vlasenica, and

23 Srebrenica. In view of the fact that there was a great number of

24 casualties, wounded and killed, the humanitarian situation was severe.

25 There were no medications in the area. He sought any kind of help that

Page 7574












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7575

1 could be provided. He wasn't asking for anything in particular. At the

2 time, the president of the War Presidency hailed in Avdic often sent out

3 appeals for assistance in writing and in direct communication, oral

4 communication, with President Izetbegovic.

5 The requests that were written were sent to the highest

6 international authorities as well, such as the Security Council. Our

7 intention was to send out information on how critical our situation was.

8 In addition to the civilian bodies of government of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina, these appeals were also sent to the high commission for --

10 commissioner for refugees. The numbers of refugees increased in the area.

11 Those who had arrived in 1992 were joined by a new wave of refugees from

12 the occupied territories of Kamenica, Cerska, and Konjevic Polje later on.

13 In the second half of March, Srebrenica was a town holding as many as

14 25.000 of them.

15 Q. All right. Mr. Becirovic, let me stop you. With respect to the

16 areas you were going into, I would like you to focus in on the

17 communication aspect now.

18 Could you tell us where Naser Oric was when this conversation took

19 place with Mr. Halilovic?

20 A. This conversation took place in Konjevic Polje. Mr. Naser Oric

21 was in Konjevic Polje. There was a heavy Serbian attack underway on

22 Konjevic Polje; Naser Oric was there. I was there, too, and that was

23 where contact was made.

24 Q. Could you tell us what the means -- what communication equipment

25 was used during this conversation?

Page 7576

1 A. A short wave radio, Atlas 210X. It had been sent over to Cerska

2 sometime previously in order to send information from Cerska to

3 Srebrenica, and this information could not be sent out to the public and

4 the bodies of government. There was a need for a piece of equipment to be

5 sent to that area because there was none in the area. It was used to send

6 information to the civilian bodies of government from the Cerska area and

7 primarily to the general public, the media, the television. This is what

8 the equipment was used for. There was an operator in Cerska who was in

9 charge of the equipment, but he was not sufficiently skilled to be able to

10 use it properly.

11 There was an offensive underway, and I travelled to Cerska in

12 order to teach the operator how to use the equipment, to teach him the

13 skills that he lacked. In the meantime, Cerska had been occupied and this

14 piece of equipment had been transferred to Konjevic Polje. So it was from

15 Konjevic Polje that contact was made.

16 Q. If you can briefly recall if any other members of the Territorial

17 Defence contacted -- used the PTT building and the IC-751 to make any

18 contacts during the period of time that you were in Srebrenica, if you

19 could recall the names just briefly?

20 A. At the outset, I said that anyone who wished to get in touch with

21 their families meet in Tuzla, Croatia, Slovenia, or elsewhere would be

22 granted access and given an opportunity to establish communication. I

23 provided my services. This in no way meant that members of the TO had any

24 sort of priority status or indeed that they were the only ones who were

25 allowed to use this equipment. Having said that, members of the

Page 7577

1 Territorial Defence also used my services and also used this piece of

2 equipment that I had.

3 Q. Without going into the details of the conversation, could you tell

4 us whether any international organisations were able to use the PTT

5 building and the radio to communicate?

6 A. When General Morillon arrived in Srebrenica, he installed his own

7 staff in Srebrenica. He explained to the people that he wanted to stay to

8 help them.

9 While General Morillon was in Srebrenica, he established several

10 contacts. At that time, I was informed that these contacts were

11 established in order to provide information to the French television, and

12 this was done with the help of the ham radio operators from Zagreb. In

13 addition to the French television, General Morillon also established

14 contact with some journalists from various papers who were stationed

15 either in Sarajevo or in Zagreb.

16 In addition to General Morillon, an official of the international

17 organisation of Medicins Sans Frontieres, also used the services of our

18 radio. He talked to people in Split. As I believe that there was an

19 office of the organisation down there in Split, I believe that he talked

20 to them about his requirements for medical supplies in Srebrenica at the

21 time.

22 This equipment was also used by a photographer from Germany who

23 arrived in February 1993 in Srebrenica. His name was Philip

24 von Retenhousen [phoen]. He spoke to ham radio operators from Berlin in

25 order to convey messages to Reuters. Some other newspapers also used the

Page 7578

1 same service in order to find out what was going on in Srebrenica.

2 I would like to repeat that the IC-751 radio equipment was used to

3 establish a number of contacts with Tillman Zilh, who was the president

4 for the association of threatened nations in Germany, and the gist of the

5 information was the same, the situation in Srebrenica, the humanitarian

6 situation, the -- and any other such information. After the

7 demilitarisation, there were contacts with other subjects, primarily with

8 the UNHCR.

9 Q. All right. Let me stop you there. Thank you, Mr. Becirovic.

10 As far as you know during the time you were in the PTT building,

11 did any of the other operators or yourself use the radio to discuss

12 matters of exchange, exchanges of prisoners, with any of the Serbian

13 authorities or anyone else for that matter?

14 A. I never used the radio to talk to anybody about exchanges. I

15 don't know that any of the operators who worked with me did that.

16 Q. I'd like to bring your attention back to your earlier testimony

17 when you described for the Trial Chamber the equipment that you recovered

18 in the information centre, and I believe you also mentioned the MUP as

19 well. Did you recover any communication equipment that necessitated the

20 use of codes?

21 A. I found a piece of equipment in the early information centre that

22 was used before the war for coding and decoding of written information.

23 However, that piece of equipment was not used after the war started.

24 Q. Did you conduct any type of prewar procedure with respect to this

25 piece of equipment?

Page 7579

1 A. I don't understand. What procedure do you have in mind? But I

2 would like to respond by saying that I offered to the regional information

3 centre to an official who worked there whom I knew personally to use this

4 equipment if they wanted to. I gave them that option. However, in

5 Srebrenica I never received any answer to that. Nobody ever told me to

6 use it or not to use it.

7 Q. Who in Srebrenica knew you were in possession of this equipment?

8 A. I can't remember that any of the people who were in Srebrenica at

9 the time even knew what the purpose of this equipment was, if we're

10 talking about this piece of equipment for coding and decoding, for

11 encryption. Because all the people who knew how to use it had left

12 Srebrenica before the 17th of April, 1992.

13 Q. Other than the people who knew how to use it, did you tell anyone

14 when you first found the equipment that -- that it was there, that you

15 found it?

16 A. When I found it, it was intact. I told Akif Ustic that this piece

17 of equipment was there. I explained to him what its purpose was. I can't

18 remember what he said to me. I took the opportunity to give him and give

19 the regional centre for information in Tuzla an option to use this

20 equipment. I suppose that it is possible that he might have agreed with

21 that.

22 Q. Were you able to determine whether this piece of equipment was

23 working, operational?

24 A. The equipment was operational. Why am I saying this? The room

25 where it was found had never been broken into. And also, its condition

Page 7580

1 was good. I had used it before the war and I was in a position to know

2 whether it was operational or not.

3 Q. And with respect to this piece of equipment, do you recall

4 conducting any prewar procedures regarding its operation, its ability to

5 be operated?

6 A. No, I didn't. There was no need for me to do that. Let me just

7 put it simply: I didn't check it.

8 Q. I'd like to bring your attention again to some of the other type

9 of equipment that was recovered. You mentioned an Atlas that was sent to

10 Cerska. Could you tell us a little bit more about this Atlas and tell us

11 how many of them you recovered.

12 A. In the information centre, we found two Atlas 210X pieces of

13 equipment. One of them was transferred to Cerska and the other was not

14 used.

15 Q. When you say "not used," was it operational and where was it

16 taken, if any place?

17 A. I believe that it was operational. It could be used, somebody

18 could use it, but nobody ever did. It was found, as I've already told

19 you, in the information centre, communications centre.

20 Q. And was that where it was kept during 1992 and 1993?

21 A. Yes. Up to the second half of 1993 it was kept there.

22 Q. Could you tell us approximately how big this Atlas is?

23 A. If my memory serves me well, its front panel is rectangular, it's

24 about 50 centimetres wide, maybe some 20 centimetres high, and it's about

25 35 to 40 centimetres deep or long.

Page 7581

1 Q. Other than the Atlas, what other type of communication equipment

2 did you recover? And I believe you've already -- we've already covered

3 the IC-751, the 745. Anything else that you recall?

4 A. There were three other radio sets that had been used by the

5 civilian protection before the war. They were very small pieces of

6 equipment with very short range of barely a few kilometres. They were a

7 bit outdated.

8 Q. And where was this piece of equipment kept?

9 A. Jusuf Halilovic took over those pieces of equipment. Before the

10 war he was the Chief of Staff of the civilian protection, and he continued

11 performing that duty throughout the war.

12 Q. Any other type of equipment you recall recovering? I'm not sure

13 if you testified to this earlier, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. Do

14 you recall recovering an Iskra?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he mentioned this last Thursday or Wednesday

17 or whenever --

18 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm just trying to determine if that's the case,

19 Your Honour --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He did mention it already.


22 Q. If you did in fact recover this piece of equipment, where was it

23 kept?

24 A. Which particular piece of equipment are you now referring to?

25 Q. The piece of equipment that Your Honour just mentioned, the Iskra.

Page 7582

1 A. There was an Iskra equipment in the information centre, and it

2 stayed there. Throughout the war, it was never used.

3 Q. And was this piece of equipment also operational?

4 A. I suppose so. If it was operational before the 17th of April,

5 1992, there is no reason for it not to be operational after that. It used

6 the 220 volt energy, and when there was no electricity as of June 1992 it

7 could not be used for that reason. And if you're asking me whether

8 theoretically speaking it was operational, yes, it was operational.

9 Q. I'd like to just take you to another series of questions regarding

10 communication equipment and ask you if you are familiar with whether or

11 not the Territorial Defence in the surrounding areas of Srebrenica used

12 any type of communication equipment.

13 A. I am not aware of any piece of equipment used for communication

14 around Srebrenica. I only know that there were no such pieces of

15 equipment. So if there weren't any, that means that they couldn't be

16 used.

17 Q. Prior to the war, did the Territorial Defence -- were they in

18 possession, as far as you know, of communication equipment?

19 A. Yes. There was some equipment that had been used by the

20 Territorial Defence.

21 Q. And are you -- could you tell us what types of equipments they

22 were in possession of prior to the war?

23 A. Those were UKT, the ultra high-frequency types of equipment called

24 RUP-12, RUP-2B, and RUP-2/2/K.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to have

Page 7583

1 the witness look at some photographs and have him tell us whether or not

2 he can identify what's in the photograph.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, does the witness know where these

4 radios or these high frequency types of equipment were kept in prewar?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war they were kept in the

6 storage of the Territorial Defence Staff in Srebrenica. And as soon as

7 the war broke out, they were transferred to the old primary school in

8 Potocari. On the 18th of April, when the shelling started, this equipment

9 suffered a certain degree of damage because the old primary school was

10 shelled and it -- as a result of that, it was partly destroyed and partly

11 damaged.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, first I'd like to start with

13 Prosecution's Exhibit P499, which is in Sanction, and then have the

14 witness shown two new exhibits.

15 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you could take a look at the screen in front of

16 you and tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise this piece of

17 equipment that's before you.

18 A. This photo is not very clear. If I can see well, this could be

19 the front panel of one of the radio -- radios that I have mentioned, but

20 it is very hard for me to conclude which one of them it would be, just

21 looking at this photo.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I quite agree with you.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps I don't think whether technically it is

25 possible, dealing with Sanction, can we make it appear lighter, much

Page 7584

1 lighter.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think have another suggestion If I

3 could have the registrar's assistance.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have one in colour.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes. If we could show the witness that. I think

6 it's much clearer -- it's black and white. I stand corrected. If we can

7 show the witness this photograph, it's much clearer. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this is indeed dark, very dark, at least on

9 the screen, on the monitor.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again the photo is

11 blurred. It's very hard for me to tell you exactly what type of equipment

12 it depicts.



15 Q. If you look at the photograph, is it similar to what you described

16 as the RUP-12, although I know you've indicated that it's a bit dark?

17 A. If we know that the front panel of this equipment has three switch

18 buttons to determine the frequency, that it does have a switch for the

19 antenna and that there's also the area where you mount the antenna, the

20 area where you mount the microphone. It is possible that this is RUP-12.

21 However, if I can remember well, I have not seen this type of equipment in

22 a long time, but I remember that it did have these switches. Then it is

23 possible that this looks similar like that equipment, but I can't be sure

24 of that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's not lose more time on this.

Page 7585

1 Please --

2 MS. RICHARDSON: All right --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can hand the witness the other two photos

4 we'll mark them later.

5 And could you tell us whether you recognise the equipment shown on

6 them.

7 Put them on the ELMO, please.

8 Let's start with that one. Do you think you can tell us what

9 equipment that is?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the right lower

11 corner it says 2/2K, so this is the type of equipment.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. And it's an RU, again?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And for the record, this photo is being

15 given -- is being marked as Prosecution Exhibit P?

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] P533.


18 Next one. Do you recognise this equipment? It seems at the

19 bottom there is RT or something, 10.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] RT-20TC -- 4, I believe.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you familiar with this equipment? Was it

22 amongst the equipment that the TO had before the war?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. This piece of

24 equipment -- I can't remember -- I believe that this type of equipment,

25 judging by the number, the markings on it, belonged -- or was used by the

Page 7586

1 civilian protection.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this document will be marked as

3 Prosecution Exhibit P534.

4 So you've got two answers in one, Ms. Richardson. Let's proceed.


6 Q. Mr. Becirovic, you mentioned that Potocari had an RUP-12. Could

7 you tell us whether -- when they obtained this RUP-12?

8 MR. JONES: Sorry -- first of all, Potocari is a village. I don't

9 know particularly whether that means that Potocari had an RUP-12. But I

10 don't recall the witness mentioning that Potocari had an RUP-12. Perhaps

11 he could be directed --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness said that after the war, as soon as the

13 war started all the transmitters or radio equipment that the TO had before

14 the war was transported to the Potocari school. That's what he said.

15 MR. JONES: Oh, I see, okay so. It refers to the location of --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: School in Potocari. So I take it that what

17 Ms. Richardson is seeking now is to establish when this transportation --

18 MR. JONES: I think the danger is suggesting that Potocari as some

19 sort of entity possessed these things.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, you are right. But, okay, we all

21 understand that it isn't.

22 Yes, when were they moved from Srebrenica to Potocari, the TO

23 equipment, transmit -- radio equipment?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember it was one

25 or two weeks before the 17th of April, 1992.

Page 7587

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 Okay. Yes, Ms. Richardson.


4 Q. And what, if anything, happened to the equipment that was taken to

5 the school?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's already told us that it suffered

7 damage.


9 Q. And the equipment that suffered damage, do you recall if anything

10 was done with the equipment?

11 A. After the demilitarisation, several such pieces of equipment which

12 were not in the working order were used to put something together that

13 could be used, that could be operational. And I believe that four or five

14 or maybe even six such new pieces of equipment resulted from that

15 activity.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but in the meantime you've left empty an

17 entire year; in other words, two weeks before the 17th of April, 1992, to

18 the demilitarisation, which happened roughly a year -- a year later.

19 So during that year, April 1992 to April 1993, what happened to

20 this equipment that had been taken to Potocari? Was damaged, you said, or

21 part of it was damaged. Was it left there? Was it never used to your

22 knowledge? Or was it used, and if it was by whom, and for what purpose?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, nobody used that

24 equipment. That equipment was partly destroyed. It was amongst the

25 rubble of the school. And due to the lack of personnel that could use

Page 7588

1 it -- I believe that nobody even -- it never occurred to anybody to use

2 it. I went to the school in Potocari, having my reservations about the

3 information that had reached me. I was hoping that some of this equipment

4 may be rendered usable. However, when I saw the equipment I realised that

5 it wouldn't be possible. I just took one piece of equipment to the

6 information centre. It was not operational. I could not make it

7 operational. And I believe at the time that without the skills of skilled

8 persons, it would be impossible to use the equipment or to take two or

9 three pieces to make one operational piece.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 Ms. Richardson.


13 Q. The radio -- the equipment that you said was destroyed in

14 Potocari, did there ever come a time that an RUP was -- was fixed or made

15 operational?

16 A. As far as I know in the village of Pale there was an RUP-12 that

17 was operational. For the most part, it was used to listen in to whatever

18 was going on on the Serb side.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But the whole gist is: Was this radio or

20 transmitter or receiver, RUP-12, in Pale constructed out of the bits and

21 pieces of the other radios that had been destroyed in the Potocari school,

22 or was it something -- are you talking of something completely different?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to the extent that I'm

24 aware, this piece of equipment had been removed from the elementary school

25 earlier on. I was not aware of this device until as late as 1992. I

Page 7589












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7590

1 didn't know it was being used. In 1993, I had more information on this.

2 I had more information on why it was used and how it was used.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it strange --


6 Ms. Richardson, if you want to pursue this matter, of course feel

7 free to but I don't think it's that important.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I just have a follow-up question.

9 Q. So that we're clear, the RUP-12 that was in Pale was as far as you

10 know operational in 1992?

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Based on the information that

13 I received later, it was operational. I told you about the purpose that

14 it was used for, to listen to the Serb side, to use it to find out what

15 was going on around Bratunac.


17 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Becirovic, that other RUPs were

18 captured by the Muslim forces that you know of during 1992 or 1993?

19 A. I can tell you what I know. At Zaluzje, another RUP-12 was found

20 that had been damaged by the Serbs. They fired bullets at this piece of

21 equipment. In the second half of 1992, some spare parts belonging to this

22 bit of equipment were used in addition to those that had been found in the

23 ruins at Potocari to try and piece together a proper radio device.

24 Q. And was that done?

25 A. Yes. I said it was in the second half of 1993, yes.

Page 7591

1 Q. And as far -- I'll rephrase the question.

2 Was this -- was -- you stated that there were a number of RUPs

3 that were fixed, and I believe you mentioned -- or could you tell us what

4 areas were in possession of these RUPs and what year?

5 A. By the end of 1993, several bits of equipment had been mended,

6 four or five or six of them if I remember correctly. There was one in the

7 Potocari area, one in the Suceska area, two in the area of the town

8 itself, and one was always kept as a spare option.

9 Q. Was the PTT building used to assist with repairing these radios,

10 meaning your services or the services of other people in the PTT building?

11 A. Yes. Following demilitarisation, an electrical engineer Adem

12 Bulbucovic - I think he's close to number 10 on the list that we looked at

13 earlier - came to the PTT building and he fixed things as far as he could.

14 He fixed the equipment. That's why it was necessary for all the bits of

15 equipment that were out of order to be brought to one place so that the

16 still-operational bits could be used to try and fix the other pieces of

17 equipment.

18 The premises of the PTT building were used for the simple reason

19 that at the time, military observers of the UN and the UN police forces

20 were stationed there. They allowed us to use 500 kilowatts of electric

21 power. We used this electric power so that the technician could use the

22 welder and any other bit of equipment that he needed. He needed power.

23 Q. Now, were these radios -- was it necessary to recharge these

24 radios? I think you may have alluded to that. Could you tell us whether

25 all of the areas brought their radio to the PTT building to be recharged?

Page 7592

1 MR. JONES: Can we just fix the time period because we seem to be

2 talking about after demilitarisation, and it's important for that be

3 clear.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what the witness said. If he's going to move

5 from that period of time and include some other period of time, then he

6 must tell us.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second half of 1993, and just

8 before the end of 1993 the need arose to try and use communications to

9 create links between the various areas of the Srebrenica demilitarised

10 zone. That's when the idea occurred to someone as of August 1993, I

11 think, to collect all the radios that were not in good working order from

12 the ruins, bring them to one place, and try to re-use them or re-use their

13 spare parts that were still operational to maintain contact with areas

14 that were outside the town itself.

15 I can't remember the specific date when these devices were in fact

16 mended and when they were distributed across the area, but I think it was

17 back in December 1993, or maybe early 1994. I can't be sure about this.

18 I know that we faced a great deal of trouble because we could not have

19 direct communication from the Suceska area on account of the lie of the

20 land. A mediator was needed to establish contact, and the device that was

21 at Pale was used as a mediating piece of equipment.

22 Q. Was there an RUP kept in the Territorial Defence headquarters in

23 Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes. From the end of 1993 there was one.

25 Q. Now, you mentioned that the radios were used for listening. Do

Page 7593

1 you know if the radios were also used, the RUPs were also used by the

2 Muslim forces to communicate with each other?

3 A. I said that in the second half of 1993 or just before I found out

4 that there was a radio at Pale. I was told that this radio was mostly

5 used for listening, or rather for listening only and that it was not being

6 used for communication between members of the Territorial Defence. The

7 simple reason was, there was no other equipment. In order to have proper

8 radio communication, you must have two sides, two ends, so to speak at

9 least, two participants.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Becirovic, do these RUs, do they work on AC, DC,

11 or both?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these could only be

13 used on DC, 12 volts.


15 Q. Mr. Becirovic, at the --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I know we're approaching a break.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and -- okay. Let's have the break. How much

18 more, Ms. Richardson?

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, another 20 minutes at most, if

20 not 15.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's have a 25-minute break starting

22 from now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's continue and finish, Ms. Richardson.

Page 7594

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you will, I would ask you to keep your answers

3 short so that we can conclude the examination-in-chief.

4 Just quickly with respect to the Iskra, as a general matter, is it

5 possible for -- well, I'll rephrase the question.

6 You mentioned that there was one in Srebrenica, one was in

7 Konjevic Polje. Was there one in Potocari as well?

8 A. Each local commune that was part of Srebrenica municipality before

9 the war had at least one of these, so I believe there had to be one in

10 Potocari as well.

11 Q. And during 1992 and 1993, as far as you know, was there one in

12 Potocari?

13 A. Not that I know of, not from April 1992.

14 Q. And with respect to the Atlas, as a general matter, was it

15 possible for communications to be conducted between Srebrenica and Cerska

16 using this -- this radio?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to move to another area and ask if you recall

19 the use of any other type of communication equipment being used by any

20 member of the territorial -- of the TO, Territorial Defence, other than

21 the ones we've already mentioned?

22 A. I'm not aware of any of the members of the TO using any other type

23 of equipment other than the ones that we have referred to. Maybe your

24 question was about whether it was possible. I remember that in September

25 1992, Naser Oric used a hand-made [as interpreted] radio, or rather he was

Page 7595

1 carrying it around. It's a very small radio that you could put in your

2 pocket.

3 Q. Is that hand-made or hand-held?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: The transcript, Your Honour, reflects hand-made.

5 I just want to check.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. In this age, day and age, I wouldn't be

7 surprised.

8 It's a hand-held radio that you are referring, not hand-made? I

9 mean, let's take it for granted that it is not hand-made. I mean, come

10 on. I mean, it's --

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm only --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Hand-made radios we used to make with crystals when

13 I was 8 and 9 years old, and that time is a long passed now.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm only seeking to clarify to make

15 sure it's not a mistake in the transcript or translation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no.


18 Q. So could tell the Trial Chamber when it was that you observed -- I

19 believe you've already said it, but could you tell us how many times you

20 observed Naser Oric with this hand radio?

21 A. I said earlier that I only saw Naser Oric very rarely. There were

22 no details of note as far as I was concerned in relation to communications

23 equipment, except perhaps, as I said, in September 1992 when I noticed

24 that he was carrying this hand-held radio.

25 Q. Could you tell if this radio was in use, operational? Was he

Page 7596

1 using it at the time?

2 A. I'm not aware of that. If he used it, I was never around; that

3 much is certain. He didn't use it in my presence.

4 Q. And other than September, did you see him with it at any other

5 times during 1992 or 1993?

6 A. From time to time when Naser Oric wished to talk to his family in

7 Slovenia, he would come to the PTT building and he would make contact.

8 This happened once a month or less, once every two months, depending on

9 the situation that prevailed in town.

10 Q. I'd like you to concentrate on his use of the hand-held radio.

11 Did this only happen in September or did you see him some other time using

12 this radio or possessing it?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

15 was crystal clear. He said he had never seen Mr. Oric use this equipment.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact, to a specific question that you asked

17 earlier on, whether it was in working order, he gave you a very categoric

18 answer.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.


22 Q. Other than September of 1992, did you ever see Naser Oric in

23 possession of this hand radio?

24 A. I can't remember any details. I can't remember the details of

25 every time we met. It's possible that he carried this radio around. It's

Page 7597

1 possible he had it on him every time he came around. I simply don't

2 remember any details. What I do know is he didn't use it in my presence.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you know the make of that radio? Because you

5 seem to be quite familiar with the makes, types, of all kinds of radios.

6 So perhaps getting a glimpse of it you would know immediately what radio

7 it was.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I didn't recognise the

9 make. Judging on what the situation was like following demilitarisation,

10 it must have been 2G at the end, and it was a Japanese device.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

13 Q. And other than Naser Oric, did you see any other members of the

14 Territorial Defence in possession of one of these hand radios?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's be specific --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Hand-held.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because one of these hand-held -- you need to be

18 specific. Exactly the same or any kind of hand-held radio?

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 Q. As Your Honour just pointed out, either the one similar to the one

21 that you observed Naser Oric with or any other type of hand-held radio?

22 A. I also saw Ibrahim Mandzic carrying around a similar radio. But

23 no one else except the two of them, not before the end of 1993. I did not

24 notice anyone else carrying around these very small portable radios.

25 That's why I referred to it as a hand radio because it's hand-held.

Page 7598

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like have to a

3 video shown to the witness. They are approximately three clips, and

4 they're two minutes each, so we can go through it quickly.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you -- you just observed the video. Can you

8 identify who's in the video. Do you see Naser Oric?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked him if he could identify, why don't you

10 leave it at that, Ms. Richardson?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was trying to avoid everyone else

12 being identified in the interests of time. But I understand. I can

13 just --

14 Q. Mr. Becirovic, I'll rephrase the question.

15 In this video you're looking at at the moment, can you identify

16 anyone in the video?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, make sure -- have you received

18 interpretation, Mr. Becirovic? Yes.

19 So -- usher, could you please make sure that the witness has a

20 picture, because from what I can see from the reflection, he doesn't have

21 that, he has got something else.

22 Yes. Do you recognise anyone in that still?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the person to the left

24 of the civilian wearing a red jacket could be Naser Oric.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not --

Page 7599

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, to the left of the person wearing the red

2 jacket. Yes. Do you see an arrow now pointing to a person on the screen?

3 Is that the person -- is that the person you're telling us, according to

4 you, is Naser Oric?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this could be Naser Oric.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. You don't need to tell us about

7 the others for the time being.

8 Yes, Ms. Richardson, next question.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise. Just for the record, I'd like to

11 indicate on the video the time is 39.13.4.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And that the arrow was pointing the -- to the

13 second person from the left.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, I think we may need to go

15 back. I'm not sure the witness --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, do what you like.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm not sure if he saw the beginning.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Mr. Becirovic, the piece of equipment that you see Mr. Oric

21 holding in this video, is that similar to the one you saw him with in

22 September of 1992?

23 A. Yes, it is similar. Actually, judging by the antenna that I can

24 see in Naser's hand, I believe that this is a radio equipment, a piece of

25 radio equipment.

Page 7600

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: We can move to the next clip.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Do you recognise this person depicted in the video?

6 A. Yes, this is Naser Oric.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And for the record we are at 5 -- is it

8 5 or 6 that?

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe it's a --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 5 --

11 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe it's a 5.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 5 minutes, 55.5 seconds.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: We can continue the clip.

14 [Videotape played]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are the words important, relevant, or not?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, they're not.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So why don't we -- let's come to the question

18 because --

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we'll move to the next clip.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So you don't have any questions on that part of the

21 video?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. No.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Okay, Mr. Becirovic, if you could look at the person that's

Page 7601

1 depicted on your screen. Could you tell us if you could identify that

2 person?

3 A. I believe that this is Naser Oric.

4 Q. The device that he's holding in his hand, does that appear to be

5 similar to what you observed him with in September of 1992? And perhaps

6 we can let the video play for a moment before you respond.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is similar.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any more

10 questions with respect to this video. Just for the record, it is

11 23.29.27.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.


14 Q. Mr. Becirovic, other than the radio communication that you've been

15 testifying over the last two days, could you tell us if there were other

16 means of communication in Srebrenica that you were aware of?

17 A. Not to my knowledge. I was not aware of anything else existing.

18 Q. Other than the radios themselves, were messages relayed in any

19 other manner?

20 A. Not to my knowledge, Your Honours.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd like the witness to be shown

22 Prosecution Exhibit 3, with the usher's assistance.

23 Q. Mr. Becirovic, the document that is before you, I'd like to direct

24 your attention to paragraph 2, number 2. Just for the record, it is dated

25 18th October, 1992. And I would ask you to read that paragraph to

Page 7602

1 yourself.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, your question.


4 Q. Mr. Becirovic, are you aware of the use of couriers to relay

5 messages -- or to communicate, I should say, in Srebrenica during this

6 period of time?

7 A. I am not aware that couriers were used as such, Your Honours.

8 Q. This is the first time you've -- you're hearing about the use of

9 couriers, upon examination of this document?

10 A. This is the first time that I hear that couriers were used. I am

11 not aware of the existence of any such service in the territory of

12 Srebrenica during that period of time.

13 Q. So during this period of time -- well, I -- let me rephrase the

14 question.

15 Were you aware that individuals were used to relay messages with

16 respect to any matter?

17 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could have a moment, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Becirovic, I just have a couple more questions for you and

20 then I will complete my examination.

21 You've testified that there were various means of communication by

22 radios, whether it's the RUPs, Iskra, Atlas, et cetera. And I'd like you

23 to take a look at the next document, Prosecution Exhibit 208.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I'm advised that we will also

25 be handing out English translations as they weren't part of the exhibits

Page 7603

1 previously.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say 208 or 28?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: 208, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: 208. Okay, thank you. I just wanted to make sure.


6 Q. Mr. Becirovic, please read that document that's before you. Now,

7 with respect to this document --

8 MS. RICHARDSON: For the record it is ERN number 03721371,

9 03721371; it's actually one page. And I neglected to put the ERN for the

10 last exhibit, Prosecution's Exhibit 3. Your Honour, if I can be permitted

11 to do so now. For the record it is 0092-6461.

12 Q. Mr. Becirovic, are you familiar with this document?

13 A. No, Your Honours, I've never seen this document before.

14 Q. Now, with respect to the author of this document, are you familiar

15 with Ramiz Becirovic?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already told us about that.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can move through this.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Just ask him whether this is his brother because he

19 has explained this to us.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can go through it quickly.

21 Q. Is this person, Ramiz Becirovic, your brother?

22 A. It is possible.

23 Q. And did he work with the territorial staff and with Naser Oric

24 during 1992 and 1993?

25 A. Towards the end of 1992, he did.

Page 7604












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7605

1 Q. And is he a former JNA officer? Do you remember his rank?

2 A. Before the war, he was a reserve officer of the JNA and he was a

3 captain, a reserve captain. He never completed a military academy. After

4 having served his compulsory service, he was recruited to become a member

5 of the reserve. That's how things were done in the former Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Right. Now, having read this document, does this confirm and

7 reflect the communication -- that communication existed among the Muslim

8 forces?


10 MR. JONES: I don't think this witness can speak to that really.

11 It's not a document either sent by him or received by him. If the Chamber

12 is to draw any inferences about this document, then the Prosecution can

13 invite you to do so at the appropriate time, but I don't see how this

14 witness is going to give helpful evidence on that point.

15 I also wanted to note that it was a bit of a liberty of my learned

16 friend to insert Ramiz Becirovic there when, according to the English,

17 it's illegible. That evidence has been given by the Prosecution, that

18 it's Ramiz Becirovic; the witness hasn't said that. That's my first

19 objection. That stands.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go to the crux of the matter. This

21 document says: "As agreed with Naser, do not prepare anything. Be on the

22 alert if Naser needs you and wait for further orders."

23 The important part to the Prosecution: "Put the radio station

24 into operation in immediately and keep regular contact by means of

25 communication. This order has been received through radio communication."

Page 7606

1 Let's take the second part, the second sentence: "Put the radio

2 station into operation immediately and keep regular contact by means of

3 communication."

4 Can you give us any information on what this could possibly mean?

5 What were they referring? What was the author or signatory referring to?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know, Your Honour.

7 I'm really not clear on this, especially this second sentence where it

8 says: "Put the radio station into operation immediately and keep regular

9 contact." And this order was received by radio communication.

10 I don't know whether the reference is made to the contents of this

11 text or some other order. And if the reference is made to the contents of

12 this text, I don't know why this was done. But what I know is that during

13 this period of time there were no communications means, and I don't think

14 that it was -- I don't think that it was possible to send any information

15 by any communication means.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was the brigade commander at the time, Karadzic,

17 a person by the name of Karadzic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that at that time there

19 were brigades. At that time there are just poorly organised groups of

20 people, so I really don't make any sense of this address where it says

21 that the letter should be sent to the brigade commander.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The brigade commander, Karacici, would that mean the

23 brigade commander at Karacici or the brigade commander named Karacici?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a village in the territory

25 of Srebrenica municipality, the name of which was Karacic.

Page 7607

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you aware that there was a radio station at the

2 disposal of the brigade commander in that village?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the existence of

4 radio stations at that moment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The last sentence in this document

6 says: "This order has been received through the radio communication."

7 And it is then -- says: "By authorisation from the commander."

8 Have you got an idea as to how the commander could have communicated with

9 Ramiz Bec -- whoever it is?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, your questions, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll be brief.

13 Q. Mr. Becirovic, were you in the field during the various actions

14 taken by the Muslim forces during 1992 and in 1993?

15 A. Save for the period when I went to Cerska, I did not leave the

16 town.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour, that was my final

18 question.

19 And I would like to put on the record, the video -- the video

20 clips that were used, Prosecution --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What exhibit is that?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Prosecution's Exhibit 318 and Prosecution's

23 Exhibit 434. I believe there's another one, if you could give me a

24 moment.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Two, two. We saw two.

Page 7608

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, just two.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Madam Vidovic. So for the record

6 you've been cross-examining [sic] this witness eight hours and 20 minutes,

7 22 minutes, Ms. Richardson. Three hours and 20 minutes more than you had

8 told us you would be examining him. Anyway, we'll come to that later on.

9 Which leads me to confirm to you, Ms. Vidovic, that you can take all the

10 time you need to finish your cross-examination. But after your

11 cross-examination, after this witness, then we are going to tell you, both

12 sides, how long each witness is going to be in the box. And there will

13 not be one single concession to either of you after this, because on this

14 score if we allow things to happen in the same way they have been

15 happening all along - we've been very liberal and open-handed - we won't

16 finish before July, my anticipation.

17 So Madam Vidovic -- what's going to happen now, Mr. Becirovic,

18 because I am not quite sure that you are familiar with court proceedings.

19 Ms. Richardson has finished with her examination-in-chief. She might have

20 some further questions to you after Madam Vidovic has finished with her

21 cross-examination. But now we are going to start with the

22 cross-examination. Madam Vidovic is defending Mr. Oric, and she has every

23 right to put all the questions that she needs to you. And you have the

24 same responsibility in -- pursuant to the oath that you've taken to answer

25 all the questions that are put to you truthfully and fully and precisely

Page 7609

1 as much as possible.

2 Okay. Yes, Madam Vidovic. If you want to sit down, you may sit

3 down.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This would

5 certainly help.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Becirovic, good afternoon.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I will put a number of questions to you and I would kindly ask you

10 to reply by yes, no, or I don't know whenever you can. This will help us

11 to save time. Obviously this is only on a condition that you are able to

12 give such an answer.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Becirovic, you've told us that you were born and raised in the

16 territory of Srebrenica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before the war you resided in Srebrenica?

19 A. From December 1984, and before that I lived in my native village.

20 Q. Thank you. Your native village is Opetci, which is in the local

21 commune of Suceska. Isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Before the war and during the war, your parents resided in the

24 area of Suceska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7610

1 Q. During the months that preceded the war in February, March, and

2 April 1992, you visited your parents in Opetci. Isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. The local commune of Suceska borders on Vlasenica. Isn't that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It is true, isn't it, is that as early as autumn 1991 in the

8 forests around Vlasenica and Milic, it was forbidden to fell timber

9 because of the number of soldiers and ammunition that were deployed in the

10 area. Are you aware of that?

11 A. No, I'm not aware of that directly. However, from the beginning

12 of 1992, the -- it was said that in the municipality of Vlasenica, all the

13 felling had stopped, and this is the area bordering on the local commune

14 of Suceska.

15 Q. The persons from whom you heard that, did they tell you that this

16 had something to do with the soldiers that were deployed there and the

17 arms that had arrived in the area at the time?

18 A. I learned this from my parents, who had learned that something

19 like that was happening, that all the felling had stopped. At that time,

20 there were -- there was suspicion that there was military training taking

21 place in the vicinity of Milici and that there was a lot of weapons to be

22 had there.

23 Q. It is true, isn't it, that from the woods in the vicinity of

24 Milici, between Milici and Suceska, one could hear constant shots that

25 indicated that there was training going on in that area. Is that correct?

Page 7611

1 A. My parents would tell me that shooting intensified at the

2 beginning of 1992, maybe in February.

3 Q. Did they make any sort of connection between the shooting that

4 they heard and the Serbs?

5 A. Yes. There was a certain degree of fear because it was a

6 well-known fact that in Milici there was an armoured unit of the former

7 JNA that had probably arrived from Croatia and was deployed in Milici. I

8 don't know exactly when that happened.

9 Q. In March 1992, the Serbian Democratic Party made a decision on the

10 division of the municipality of Vlasenica into the Muslim part and the

11 Serbian part; that was a generally known fact. Are you aware of it?

12 A. Yes. This was a well-known fact.

13 Q. At the same time the police forces from Milici and Tisca together

14 with the brigade from Sekovici set up check-up points in the area. Are

15 you aware of that?

16 A. Yes. As early as April -- I apologise, February 1992, the Serbs

17 started setting up checkpoints in the places where they had majority.

18 Q. They could stop people, check people, and they started mistreating

19 Muslims, specifically, too, didn't they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. A while ago you referred to the armoured mechanised brigade, which

22 you said had arrived from Croatia. It's true, isn't it, that this brigade

23 was deployed in Sekovici and Lukic Polje?

24 A. I'm not sure about how this unit was deployed. It is a fact, to

25 my knowledge at least, that part of it was in Milici and part of it in

Page 7612

1 Lukic Polje. There was an armoured unit of the former JNA there.

2 Q. In February and March 1992, this was something that you could see

3 everyday along the Sekovici-Milici-Rupova Brdo road, tanks and APCs moving

4 along the road. Wasn't this the case?

5 A. All civilians who as early as May 1992 had fled to the local

6 commune of Suceska who were saying that the manoeuvres of the Serb

7 armoured units had been stepped up since about a month or two near the

8 bauxite mine in Podravanje and this is the road that runs just next to the

9 Suceska local commune.

10 Q. People said that the soldiers you could see on tanks and APCs wore

11 uniforms and also wore Chetnik insignia from World War II. Is this also

12 something you heard?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your testimony you mentioned that before the war the reserve

15 units of the JNA were trained in Milici. My question is about this:

16 These reserve units were actually local Serbs from the area, weren't they?

17 A. Yes. The Muslim employees of the bauxite mine were saying that

18 ever since the beginning of 1992 their Serb workmates had stopped coming

19 to work and that they were being mobilised into the reserve units of the

20 former JNA.

21 Q. This training did not comprise Muslims, did it?

22 A. No. The Muslims carried on with their daily jobs at the bauxite

23 mine.

24 Q. Therefore, the Serb population in that area, as early as April

25 1992, had already been mobilised and armed. Would I be right in claiming

Page 7613

1 that?

2 A. Yes, you would be.

3 Q. You also heard that weapons had been given even to boys and to

4 elderly men. Isn't that correct?

5 A. People, refugees for the most part, those who had been expelled

6 from the Muslim villages after these villages had been burned, that when

7 the Serbs first attacked and started torching villages they also saw

8 children carrying firearms.

9 Q. Thank you. On the 21st of April, 1992, in Vlasenica, the Serbian

10 authorities were established as well as a Serb police station. Isn't that

11 a fact?

12 A. I'm not familiar with the date, but it is a fact - and this

13 applied to all the other municipalities that there were - that the Serbs

14 established their own so-called Serb bodies of authority.

15 Q. The Serb police force led by Rade Bjelanovic and the Serb

16 Territorial Defence, with the support of JNA units, set out to disarm the

17 Muslim villages. Is this something you would agree with?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

20 now, please. I would like to show the witness a map. This is Prosecution

21 Exhibit P520.

22 Your Honours, we shall not be asking the witness to mark anything

23 on the map, but we want him to show the Chamber around this map so that

24 the Chamber can follow.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 7614

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, this is the same map that you used the other day to show

3 the Muslim villages around Srebrenica when prompted to do so by the

4 Prosecutor. I will now ask you to show some other villages. If you can

5 please use the pointer and --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. Bear with me, please.

7 Usher, I think we will need to put it on the ELMO.

8 The only thing we require from you, Madam Vidovic, is more or less

9 since the map is pretty big in size, let's divide it into four parts and

10 you just indicate which part -- which quarter the usher needs to

11 concentrate upon, whether it's top, right, left, left-right, or bottom

12 left-right, left-right.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the left part of the map,

14 and the witness is familiar with the area, the area around Milici and

15 Suceska. That is in the middle of the map and to the left.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, we have it. But -- usher, do you have

17 problems? Because if you do have problems, bring it here and I will

18 indicate to you which part you need to concentrate on.

19 Yes, can you put the witness's --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, please, you can give us a hand here. You're familiar

22 with the Milici area, aren't you?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we have to move -- yeah, further to the left,

24 Madam Usher, please. Yes. Just a little bit further to the left, please.

25 You see Milici there where the two lines intersect. Yes, all right. Now,

Page 7615

1 if you can -- if you can centre that and then we start zooming in. All

2 right. You need to bring it down. Yes, perfect. We are almost there.

3 Thank you. And then you can push it a little bit to the left and -- yes.

4 Ms. Vidovic, go ahead, if we can go ahead.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness --

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe we can go ahead now.

8 Q. Witness, can you please now show Nova Kasaba.

9 A. [Indicates].

10 Q. Nova Kasaba. Suceska.

11 A. This would be the Suceska area, roughly speaking.

12 Q. Then Milici.

13 A. This is Milici.

14 Q. And if you see Zaklopaca on the map, please show it. If not,

15 please show where you would expect it to be.

16 Do you agree with me that Zaklopaca is at the very entrance of

17 Milici?

18 A. Zaklopaca is more towards Vlasenica, the distance from Milici is

19 seven or eight kilometres.

20 Q. Thank you for this clarification.

21 Can you please show Opetci, your own native village, on the map?

22 A. Here it is.

23 Q. Nurici?

24 A. Nurici, Vlasenica municipality, if I can explain. You have the

25 Srebrenica municipality facing Vlasenica here, and then you have the Jadar

Page 7616

1 River canyon right here. And to my right you see Vlasenica municipality,

2 and to my left you see Srebrenica.

3 Q. Thank you for this explanation, Witness. Can you now please show

4 Basta.

5 A. It's near Nurici.

6 Q. Pomol.

7 A. Pomol is just above Derventa.

8 Q. Stedra?

9 A. Stedra.

10 Q. Gornje and Donje Vresinje. Johovaca?

11 A. Donje Vresinje, I can't see it on the map, but it's right next to

12 the road. When you travel from Milici to Dobravanje [phoen] --

13 Q. Here and Dzile.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the witness is off the mike.

15 We can't hear a thing he is saying.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here and Dzile.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you very much. I'll ask you about some other villages, too,

19 later. If you can't see them on the map, you can just put a mark where

20 you think they should be.

21 The Serb police and the Serb Territorial Defence carried out

22 coordinated attacks against Muslim villages around Nova Kasaba and around

23 Suceska in April, May, June, and July of 1992. Would I be right in saying

24 that?

25 A. Yes. Kasaba started a little earlier, but Suceska happened on the

Page 7617

1 1st of May. There was an ultimatum for the Muslim population of Suceska

2 to hand over their weapons.

3 Q. After Vlasenica was taken, the Serb police started to bring people

4 in, beat them, and kill them, I mean the Muslims, in this area. Am I

5 right?

6 A. Yes, quite right. It's a well-known fact that in the vicinity of

7 Vlasenica there was a camp that was established, the Sucice [phoen] camp,

8 where many of the -- of Vlasenica's Muslims were killed.

9 Q. We're talking about hundreds of Muslims that were killed in the

10 camp, aren't we?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the 16th of May, 1992, an atrocious crime -- a horrific crime

13 was committed in the village of Zaklopaca, the village that you've shown

14 us a while ago near Milici, when about 100 civilians were killed,

15 including women and children. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes. The entire Muslim population of Zaklopaca was killed in a

17 single day.

18 Q. On the 18th of May, 1992, the following villages were torched:

19 Piskavice and Dzandzici. Is that correct?

20 A. The villages you've referred to are near Vlasenica, near Vlasenica

21 town. I heard about this because I met people from the area. I met

22 people who had fled the area in order to avoid being arrested. First they

23 went to Cerska and eventually they arrived in Srebrenica.

24 Q. As for the fate of the Muslims of Vlasenica, this is something

25 that people in the Srebrenica area, especially in Suceska area, were quite

Page 7618

1 familiar with, weren't they?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In late May and early June 1992, the following villages were

4 torched and destroyed: Durici, Sadici, Gradina, and the Muslim population

5 of the village of Torina was killed. Am I right? Do you know about this?

6 A. Yes. All the Muslim villages around Vlasenica were torched at

7 this time. And those inhabitants who had not managed to escape were taken

8 to the concentration camp at Suceska.

9 Q. The village of Opetci where you grew up and where your parents

10 lived is in the immediate vicinity of the Muslim villages of Nurici,

11 Basta, Tomo, Stedra, Gornje and Donje Vresinje, Johovaca, Here, and Dzile.

12 Would I be right in stating that all these are in the vicinity of Opetci?

13 A. Yes. I could see most of those villages with the naked eye. The

14 Jadar River was the only natural line of division in the area. You could

15 see from one hill to the next.

16 Q. In your testimony you referred to all these villages, saying that

17 they had been torched. These were Muslim villages, which throughout June

18 1992 were torched by the Serb forces, weren't they, throughout May and

19 June in fact?

20 A. These villages were torched in early May 1992. The torching

21 started on the 2nd of May and continued several days later. Within less

22 than a fortnight, all the villages had been torched.

23 Q. The inhabitants of Suceska could actually see the Serbs torch and

24 loot these Muslim villages, couldn't they?

25 A. Yes. I was one of those who could see, unfortunately.

Page 7619












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7620

1 Q. Did I understand you correctly, you said you stayed in the village

2 of Opetci between the 18th of April, 1992 and the end of May that same

3 year. Would it be right in saying that?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Therefore you personally witnessed those Muslim villages burning,

6 you personally witnessed the looting of property from those villages. Am

7 I right when I say that the looting was done by the Serb population of the

8 surrounding areas?

9 A. Yes. People who were trying to escape had managed to identify

10 their neighbours, their former neighbours, or their workmates.

11 Q. In other words, all this Muslim property, including livestock,

12 would end up in nearby Serb villages and areas such as Podravanje,

13 Ruda Brdo, Rupovo Brdo, Milici, Derventa. Would I be right in saying

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The Milici-Podravanje road passes near the village of Opetci,

17 doesn't it? Can you please show this road on the map, the

18 Milici-Podravanje-Derventa road, if you could use the pointer, please, and

19 show the road on the map.

20 A. This is Milici. This is the road. Derventa, 10 kilometres from

21 Milici.

22 Q. Podravanje?

23 A. This is the road to Podravanje.

24 Q. You were in your native village in the period of time that I've

25 just defined. You were in a position to see that this road was being used

Page 7621

1 on a daily basis by tanks, APCs, and other military vehicles of the Serb

2 forces. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you please tell me, what is the distance between Derventa and

5 Suceska?

6 A. The local commune of Suceska begins at one of the entry points to

7 Derventa, and if you look at this bit here, that is already the local

8 commune of Suceska.

9 Q. In other words, the town of Derventa is in the immediate vicinity

10 of Suceska, isn't it?

11 A. Yes. I completed my four years of primary school in Derventa

12 myself.

13 Q. The town of Derventa right from the very beginning of the war and

14 throughout 1992 and later was used as a stronghold for the Serb army, and

15 a large number of armoured units and artillery were stationed there.

16 Isn't that correct?

17 A. That's quite correct. There was a well-known story that the local

18 population of Derventa and the surrounding Serb villages volunteered to go

19 to Croatia and to join the war there, or they went as reserve forces,

20 depending.

21 Q. In other words, the Serb population in the vicinity of Suceska

22 greeted the war well-prepared, well-trained, and well-armed. Would I be

23 right in saying that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were anyone to say that those were local village guards that the

Page 7622

1 Serb population had in the area, that would by no means square with the

2 truth, would it?

3 A. Well, the very fact that Serbs used to walk around in uniforms at

4 the time, they were marching around with their tanks and armoured

5 vehicles -- as I say, this very fact indicates that those were by no means

6 regular village guards. Those were well-armed and well-trained people.

7 Q. The Srebrenica area alone -- the Srebrenica area itself was in

8 total isolation as far as the media were concerned from the rest of Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina. Am I right?

10 A. We could not watch the Bosnian TV, but we could listen to the

11 radio.

12 Q. You could only watch Serb TV stations, couldn't you?

13 A. Yes. TV Belgrade and TV Novi Sad.

14 Q. Mr. Becirovic, it's true, isn't it, that while the Muslim villages

15 were ablaze in April, May, and June, the Serb media reported that the

16 Muslim forces had been torching Serb villages. Is that correct? Do you

17 know anything about that?

18 A. Yes, that is true. On the 2nd of May, as the village of Pomol was

19 burning, which is near Derventa, it's a Muslim village. Its population

20 was entirely Muslim. At 5.00 in the afternoon, I watched the TV Novi Sad

21 news. Soon after, I realised that Pomol was on fire. I heard the

22 anchorman on the TV Novi Sad say that Muslim forces had torched the Serb

23 village of Pomol. I was greatly surprised, to say the least, and couldn't

24 make heads or tails of this, except to chalk this down to Serb propaganda.

25 Maybe there was some people among the Serb population who had refused to

Page 7623

1 take part in combat, and maybe this was their way of trying to get those

2 people, to persuade those people as well, to join the torching and all the

3 other misdeeds that were being committed.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. And in May 1992 you were staying in the

5 Suceska area and you actually talked to refugees who had been expelled

6 from the Muslim villages, that we've referred to, Nurici, Pesici [phoen],

7 Dzile, and so on and so forth. Am I right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the Serb units had reached the

10 elevations in the area already in April 1992 and placed their artillery,

11 tanks, and mortars there?

12 A. Yes. Starting with Podravanje and then moving on to Milici, all

13 the hilltops near the Serb villages had mortars positioned on them. And

14 prior to the 1st of May, there would be nighttime firing for the most part

15 on the villages of the Suceska local commune. Bursts of fire from small

16 arms could also be heard very frequently.

17 Q. Did you ever see or hear at the time that on Basta, Brdo, and

18 Podravanje, there were lots of Serb infantry forces stationed?

19 A. Yes. The places that you have referred to did have Serb forces

20 and artillery placed there.

21 Q. It was as early as April 1992 and onwards that artillery fire was

22 being opened on the civilian buildings in Suceska and Srebrenica itself

23 from the positions. Am I right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you now please show the Trial Chamber Rogac.

Page 7624

1 A. This is Rogac hill.

2 Q. Then Milica hill.

3 A. I can't see it on the map, but it should be around here, between

4 Rogac and Milici.

5 Q. Thank you. Koprivno?

6 A. The village of Koprivno and Koprivno hill right next to it.

7 Q. Thank you. The Suceska area was under siege by Serb military

8 forces that had arrived from Milici on the one hand and from Rogaci, Milic

9 hill, and Koprivno on the other facing Konjevic Polje. Would I be right

10 in saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Rogac, Milica hill, and Kopriva had heavy artillery and multiple

13 rocket launchers deployed on them, and these shelled the civilian

14 population of Suceska and Srebrenica?

15 A. Yes. The Rogac elevation is notorious in the area. The Serbs on

16 Rogac shelled the town and the places around Srebrenica every day,

17 randomly, not targeting anything particular.

18 Q. Thank you. It is true, isn't it, that this area - and I am

19 referring to Suceska in particular as well as Srebrenica - was constantly

20 shelled from the airplanes that flew from Serbia and the airport near

21 Bratunac in the area called Ade Stale, or Stale. Am I right?

22 A. Yes, you are.

23 Q. And now let me ask you something else. Since you are a native of

24 Suceska, you hail from that area, you knew the population of the

25 surrounding villages, including the villages that belonged to the

Page 7625

1 Vlasenica municipality but were bordering on the territory of Suceska. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. When I attended at the primary school in Derventa, I got to

4 know a number of people that belonged to my generation. They all went to

5 school with me. All the children from these villages went to the primary

6 school in Derventa.

7 Q. You are aware of the fact that refugees from Vlasenica in the

8 territory of Suceska towards Zepa rallied around Becir Mekanic and the

9 prewar commander of the Vlasenica police station, Fadil Turkovic. Did you

10 ever hear of these people?

11 A. Yes. While I was staying in Suceska towards the end of April

12 1992, the refugees that arrived from the burned areas were saying that in

13 the vicinity of Besic hill or even higher up in the woods, people rallied

14 around these two persons, that each of them rallied a group of people

15 around them, as they expected that the war would end soon and that they

16 would be able to go back to their homes.

17 Q. It is true, isn't it, that these groups were armed? Did you hear

18 that?

19 A. Yes. It was mostly the weapons that belonged to the reserve

20 troops of the civilian police or hunting rifles that people had from

21 before the war.

22 Q. It is true, isn't it, that these groups were independent and they

23 had nothing to do with Zulfo Tursunovic group in Suceska, but they shared

24 the same area?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 7626

1 Q. These groups also struggled to obtain food and arms, and they

2 fought for those with the local Serbs from the surrounding villages?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 18th of April, 1992, or around that time, you were in

5 Potocari when the shelling of Potocari and Srebrenica started?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Srebrenica was occupied on the 17th of April, 1992. Many people

8 were killed there. Isn't that correct? Are you aware of that?

9 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. The ultimatum was given on the 18th of

10 April, 1992.

11 Q. By the 9th of May, 1992, many people who stayed there, the

12 elderly, women, and children, were killed. Over 80 houses were torched.

13 Am I right?

14 A. Yes, you're right. In the town itself one street which had over

15 80 houses in it was completely torched. In those houses, the elderly

16 people found their death.

17 Q. The property of the Muslims of Srebrenica was looted, and this

18 also includes the property of state institutions. The Serbs looted the

19 Muslim property and the property of the state institutions of Srebrenica.

20 Am I right?

21 A. Yes, you're right. Whatever could be taken from Srebrenica was

22 taken within a very short period of time. Everything was looted, whatever

23 could be looted.

24 Q. After the death of Goran Zekic, the Muslims returned to

25 Srebrenica; you were among them. Isn't that correct?

Page 7627

1 A. Yes, it is correct.

2 Q. You have described the military situation in the territory which

3 was held by the Serbs around Srebrenica. You will agree with me, won't

4 you, that when it comes to the level of equipment for fighting, what the

5 Muslims in the area had and what you saw them having was far below what

6 the Serbs had?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. In other words, the Muslims had very little weapons and uniforms?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There were very small groups that had uniforms and weapons, am I

11 right, and particularly uniforms?

12 A. When it comes to uniforms, very few people had uniforms. I can't

13 give you an estimate, but I can only say that there were very few men

14 wearing uniform at the time.

15 Q. Intellectuals had left Srebrenica or more educated people?

16 A. Yes, you're right.

17 Q. There were very few people who had any military education

18 whatsoever?

19 A. You're right.

20 Q. You've told us that in the course of 1992, the Muslim villages of

21 that area had only those organised armed groups that defended their own

22 respective villages. Is that correct?

23 A. I called them poorly organised or armed groups. The fact is that

24 they were few and far between and that they did not comprise of many men.

25 Q. Thank you. In addition to that, they were intercepted by the Serb

Page 7628

1 villagers and the Serb forces and they were isolated from Srebrenica.

2 They were cut off from Srebrenica. Am I right?

3 A. Yes, you're right.

4 Q. There are entire Muslim villages which were cut off from

5 Srebrenica throughout 1992. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes, you're right.

7 Q. I would kindly ask you to show the Trial Chamber the area that you

8 are familiar with, Skenderovici, Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorjen and

9 Brezovice. This is the area in the vicinity of the village of Ratkovici.

10 A. Brezovice, Skenderovici.

11 Q. Poznanovici?

12 A. Poznanovici.

13 Q. Dedici? You will agree with me that Dedici and Podkorjen are in

14 the vicinity of Poznanovici even they may not be on the map.

15 A. You're right.

16 Q. And now could you please show the Trial Chamber the villages of

17 Pribicevac and Spat?

18 A. This is Pribicevac and this is Spat.

19 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber what are Pribicevac

20 and Spat. Am I right in saying that these are actually elevations?

21 A. Yes, these are elevations. The two elevations that are famous for

22 the fact that during these two locations, in the course of 1992 and 1993,

23 from April 1992 up to demilitarisation and even after that, from

24 Pribicevac, the shelling of the town Srebrenica and the Muslim villages

25 continued from there and from the oppose side.

Page 7629

1 Q. So Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorjen, and Brezovice were cut off from

2 Brezovice by Pribicevac and Spat that were very, very famous Serbian

3 strongholds. Am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a very important correction in

6 the transcript. I asked the witness Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorjen, and

7 Brezovice were cut off from Srebrenica by Pribicevac and Spat, and the

8 witness said, "Yes, you're right." And it says here cut off from

9 Brezovice.

10 Q. Witness, please, am I right in saying that these villages that I

11 have just listed were cut off from Srebrenica by Pribicevac and Spat. Am

12 I right?

13 A. Yes, you're right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this is a good

16 moment for a break.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will have a 25-minute break starting

18 from now.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Becirovic, these Muslim villages that we have just mentioned,

24 I've mentioned, Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorjen, and Brezovice are villages

25 which were in the closest vicinity of the area of the village of

Page 7630

1 Ratkovici. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In the course of 1992, as you know, many people fled Glogova after

4 the massacre in Glogova and they ended up in the area of Cizmici. That

5 was in May of that year. Were you aware of that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That was a large group of people led by Ejub Golic. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. You also know, don't you, that large groups of refugees lived in

11 the forests around Voljevica, Zaluzje, and Biljaca. Am I right?

12 A. Yes, you are.

13 Q. These people were armed, some of them were armed, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, some of them were armed, but a smaller number of men were

15 armed.

16 Q. The expelled Muslims from the Skelani region, including Tokoljaci,

17 lived in the forests throughout the summer and autumn up until the winter

18 of 1992. Are you aware of that?

19 A. Throughout the winter of 1992 and 1993, there were two camps in

20 the vicinity of Tokoljaci. One was Tokoljaci and the other one was

21 Sulice. Those were improvised huts in the forest where the civilians from

22 the territories of Skelani and Osat lived.

23 Q. These groups -- in these groups there were also men with weapons

24 who fought the local Serbs in order to get some more food and some more

25 weapons. Am I right?

Page 7631

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your testimony you mentioned four large armed groups of

3 Muslims. You mentioned Naser Oric's group, Zulfo Tursunovic's group,

4 Hakija Meholjic's group and Nedzad Bektic's group?

5 A. And also Akif Ustic. I didn't mention Nenad Bjekic. I apologise.

6 Q. You didn't. Generally speaking, you did have contacts with some

7 of the men from these groups?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. According to your information, these groups were also not

10 organised, they did not communicate with each other or their communication

11 throughout 1992 was rather restricted?

12 A. Yes. These were poorly organised groups which did not communicate

13 with each other.

14 Q. It is true, isn't it, that in addition to these groups that you

15 have mentioned, the four groups, that is there were also many other armed

16 groups that fought against the local Serbs absolutely independently and

17 had nothing whatsoever to do with these four groups throughout the year

18 1992 up to the demilitarisation. Am I right?

19 A. Yes, you are.

20 Q. You were in Srebrenica in late June and early July 1992. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. I was in Srebrenica during that period of time.

23 Q. You tried to gather information about what was going on in the

24 territory of Srebrenica. Is that correct?

25 A. After the month of July, I did. I made an effort to gather

Page 7632

1 information about what was going on in the territory of the municipality

2 of Srebrenica.

3 Q. You will then remember that before this testimony, you gave your

4 statement to the investigators of the OTP. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. You said that you had not heard of the attack on Ratkovici until

7 the moment you arrived in The Hague. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In conversations with people from various areas about the

10 situation during the summer and autumn 1992, you obtained information that

11 every single Muslim village was under a lot of pressure to bear from the

12 far more powerful Serb force?

13 A. That is correct. I heard that from the wounded who were brought

14 to the hospital in Srebrenica.

15 Q. Every single Muslim village in the vicinity of Srebrenica and

16 Bratunac struggled to survive. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct. People defended their families, their

18 homes.

19 Q. And they fought a far stronger enemy who were their neighbours.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. People from these Muslim villages wanted to help each other in

23 their joint struggle for survival. Is that correct?

24 A. It actually depended on the good will of these people in those

25 groups, whether they would help other groups or not. Or better say, if

Page 7633

1 their own villages were not under attack, there were cases of these people

2 going to help some other places that did come under attack. There were

3 very few weapons, and that is why people who did not carry weapons could

4 not be used if they wanted to help.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, I'm looking at the

7 transcript, hearing the testimony. We're hearing about the Muslim

8 villages without any specifications about which ones. So perhaps we could

9 have some type of concrete information about which particular Muslim

10 villages this witness is referring to. He's used the map --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, point taken, Ms. Richardson.

12 Madam Vidovic, I think that needs clarification from you by means

13 of a further question. Or now that the witness himself has heard the

14 exchange from him directly.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes.

16 Q. I was referring to the villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica and

17 Bratunac. Isn't that so, Witness? Is that the way you understood me?

18 A. Yes. That is precisely the way I understood your question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Ms. Richardson?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, in light of how many villages

21 were discussed, I don't think it would do any harm at this point for the

22 village -- for the witness, excuse me, to give us examples of some of the

23 villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica and Bratunac.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Fair enough I think that's a fair -- a fair

25 request and comment.

Page 7634












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7635

1 Yes, Witness, could you give us some instances in support of your

2 previous testimony. Mention some of these villages to us.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Muslim villages.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, of course.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The villages of Bljeceva, Cizmici,

6 Potocari, the villages in the local commune of Suceska. These are the

7 villages that I was referring to.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Also I've asked you about the villages from the area of Ratkovici,

10 such as Poznanovici, Dedici, Podkorjen. Did you have these villages in

11 mind as well when you answered my question?

12 A. If I understood you question well, and that was whether people

13 helped each other, I would be more familiar with the area of Potocari and

14 Cizmici, as well as the area of Bljeceva, the area of Suceska. At that

15 time I was not so familiar with the events that took place in the vicinity

16 of Ratkovici, Skenderovici, and other Muslim villages in that area, such

17 as Brezovice. At that moment, I was not familiar with the details of

18 whether people in that area helped each other.

19 However, soon after the demilitarisation, I had an occasion to

20 talk to people as to what had been going on in these areas. They would

21 also tell me that if they had an occasion to help each other, if one

22 village came under the attack and the other didn't, then they helped each

23 other.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

25 The struggle for survival in the Muslim villages that you have

Page 7636

1 mentioned as being familiar with was a very hard struggle, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes. Those villages were subjected to shellings by Serbs on a

3 daily basis and people were killed every day.

4 Q. Thousands of refugees were killed in a bid to return to their

5 villages under cover of the night in order to get food. Isn't that a

6 fact?

7 A. Yes. It's a well-known fact that the inhabitants of Glogova went

8 from Bljeceva and Cizmici in an attempt to go back to Glogova and get

9 food. Many were killed. Likewise, the inhabitants of Voljevica tried to

10 go back to Voljevica during the night in order to bring back food for

11 their families.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just briefly, if we could have a

14 time period as to these events that the witness is testifying to, and it's

15 been some time since we've referred to time.


17 These two incidents that you've just mentioned, the Glogova and

18 Voljevica, when did they occur?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was several months, maybe one

20 or two months after the occupation and after the population was expelled.

21 The general idea was that the war would soon be over, and people believed

22 that they would soon be able to go back to their homes. However, the war

23 dragged on. And the food situation in these villages was very poor.

24 Therefore, these people tried to obtain some food to feed their families

25 by going back to their own native villages. These attempts became

Page 7637

1 frequent in November 1992 and continued in December 1992.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. These people from certain Muslim villages that you have mentioned

4 had to walk dozens of kilometres in order to reach a place where they

5 could get food and thus survive. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, you're quite right. And very often they came across

7 minefields where many of them were killed. The Serbs had noticed that

8 people were undertaking forages to go and find food, and they would lay

9 minefields along the routes.

10 Q. They also ambushed these groups and killed people?

11 A. Yes. People were killed in ambushes, too.

12 Q. Thank you. We'll now move on to a different subject.

13 Mr. Becirovic, in late May 1992 you got in touch with Akif Ustic.

14 You inspected the communications centre of Srebrenica municipality and

15 found some equipment there. Isn't that a fact?

16 A. Yes, the information centre you mean?

17 Q. Yes, the information centre, that's the one I mean. Thank you for

18 setting the record straight.

19 You found the KTIC5 and the KTIC-751 there, the equipment that you

20 found later. Isn't that a fact?

21 A. Yes. It was at the information centre that I found the IC-745 and

22 later at the public security station I also found the IC-751.

23 Q. You have described the equipment you found. This was in late May

24 or June 1992. What, if anything, was operational, the two radios, would

25 that be a fair statement?

Page 7638

1 A. Yes. The first one I used was IC-745, and later on I think it was

2 in July I also started using IC-751.

3 Q. No other pieces of equipment that you ever found in 1992 were in

4 fact operational. Would I be right in saying that?

5 A. Yes, you would be quite right. There was no other single piece of

6 equipment in Srebrenica that was operational.

7 Q. Phone lines out of Srebrenica were only operational for as late as

8 the first half of July 1992. Am I right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Following that, the IC-751 and the IC-745, that's after the phone

11 lines to Tuzla were down, these two pieces of equipment were the only

12 lines of communication to Tuzla?

13 A. Yes, that was the case.

14 Q. In your testimony you also said that you found some encryption

15 equipment as well as a fax machine. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, a teleprinter or a telex. Yes, that's true.

17 Q. Therefore you tried to have encrypted, protected, communication

18 with Tuzla but there was no reply from Tuzla. Is that not a fact?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Throughout August 1992, you received a set of rules on how to set

21 up encrypted communication with other corps, how to use the encryption

22 methods. Am I right?

23 A. No. I did not receive any documents from Tuzla. For a while, I

24 had communication with the Territorial Defence district staff in Tuzla,

25 but I used documents from before the war that were at the information

Page 7639

1 centre already, ones that I found there.

2 Q. Thank you. I would like to show you a document now.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

4 please.

5 Q. It's a document by the District Defence Secretariat in Tuzla dated

6 the 23rd of August, 1993, and signed by the deputy secretary, Nusret

7 Mesic.

8 Witness, if you could please have a look. This is about

9 organising the encryption of confidential information in the Tuzla

10 district. The date on the document is the 23rd of August, 1993. I will

11 quote a brief portion, the brief relevant portion of the document. It

12 says in a telex dispatch sent in August 1992, the republican minister of

13 defence repealed the system of encryption of written information in the

14 territory of the Republic of BH. The decision was based on reasons that

15 were easy to understand, given the fact that the aggressor, too, had

16 special documents for encryption, hereinafter KZ, and the system as a

17 whole was abandoned.

18 It goes on to say: "The encryption system for confidential

19 information used telegraphic wire -- telegraphic lines that were almost

20 entirely useless."

21 Witness -- so, Witness, this document appears to show that the

22 republican defence minister decided to stop using the encryption system.

23 I have this to ask you about it: It is true that encryption telexes and

24 the entire encryption system in relation to written information could not

25 be used for communication with Tuzla from August 1992 onwards. Would I be

Page 7640

1 right in saying that?

2 A. Yes, that's a fair statement. Ever since the second half of July,

3 that's when the phone lines were disrupted, the encryption system could no

4 longer be used.

5 Q. So I understood you correctly, when you said that you had not used

6 the encryption system even in the run up to August 1992. Is that a fair

7 statement?

8 A. Yes, that's a fair statement. We never used the encryption system

9 at all.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

12 into evidence, please, and for it to be assigned a number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will be Defence Exhibit D?


15 JUDGE AGIUS: 261. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. IC-745 was returned to the radio club in order to help maintain

18 the civilian phone lines that had been disrupted. And ever since it was

19 returned, it was only used for that purpose, wasn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. People in Srebrenica faced constant problems with the power

22 supply, and that's why the IC-745 was placed in the PTT building on the

23 first floor in a room that was referred to as the switchboard. Is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes. Among other reasons there were no stable sources of

Page 7641

1 electricity. However, initially this radio, IC-745, was used by people to

2 keep in touch as well as to keep in touch with the other station and the

3 IC-751.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness, but I want to ask you about something else.

5 Please explain to the Trial Chamber what the switchboard is and what it's

6 used for.

7 A. It's something you have in every post office. It's a separate

8 room containing a large number of cables used to -- used for automatic

9 telephones in the area that the post office is in charge of. There is an

10 automatic switchboard at the post office that caters for these telephones.

11 In order for two such telephones to be able to communicate, if we are

12 talking about a wire link, there had to be a cable from the post office to

13 one phone and from the phone back to the post office.

14 Q. Thank you. Therefore, anyone who walks into that room would

15 immediately spot on one of these walls some sort of a board, some sort of

16 a device, and this would be the switchboard, wouldn't it?

17 A. Yes. There was a part of the switchboard, something called a --

18 the inspection table. And it was from this inspection table that you

19 could check whether phone lines and telephones were in fact operational in

20 order to save time for the operator, because otherwise they would have to

21 make the rounds, go through the entire area and check every phone

22 individually, and this way they were able to use this inspection table.

23 Q. The IC-751 was in fact placed on a table that was right in front

24 of the switchboard, or rather the switchboard was behind any person that

25 operated the IC-751. Am I right?

Page 7642

1 A. When I say "switchboard," I mean two things, but this inspection

2 table was behind the operator's back. And the way the cables were placed,

3 that was in front of the operator.

4 Q. Another question in relation to this. If someone who was not

5 conversant with this sort of equipment or not sufficiently conversant at

6 any rate walked into this room, all they would see is a large number of

7 sockets. Right in front of the person sitting there they would see

8 something behind the person's back three by two metres roughly speaking.

9 Am I right?

10 A. I can't quite visualise every single detail. The inspection table

11 or the size of the inspection table was two by one and a half or three by

12 one and a half, not more than that. And the cables, this bunch of cables

13 looked fantastic to me at first sight. It looked like a fantastic thing.

14 Q. Witness, this switchboard and the inspection table had nothing

15 whatsoever to do with the IC-751 piece of equipment that was actually

16 being used. Am I right?

17 A. You're quite right. Those devices were entirely unrelated and

18 could not enhance any operations performed by IC-751.

19 Q. The radio device itself, the IC-751, was not a particularly

20 powerful or sophisticated radio and it wasn't considered as such, even at

21 the time. Am I right?

22 A. Yes, you're right.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure how much

24 time I have.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You have exactly 12 more minutes, but regulate

Page 7643

1 yourself -- probably you have the entire day for tomorrow because I don't

2 think you have another witness lined up for tomorrow.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, that is the case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're free -- I told you, we exceeded the

5 Prosecution time by a good number of hours. So you have the entire day

6 for yourself tomorrow. So if you prefer to stop now, we can stop now. I

7 mean, it's up to you to choose, Ms. Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I could ask another three or

9 four questions. I have one document to show.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can stay until 7.00 or stop any time it's

11 convenient for you. All right.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Can I have the usher's assistance now. I would like to show the

14 witness a document. This is a document produced by the 2nd Corps in

15 Tuzla, the date is the 2nd of March, 1993. The document was signed by

16 commander Hazim Sabic, and the document was addressed to the supreme

17 command staff communications section.

18 Q. Mr. Becirovic, if you could please have a look. I will quote the

19 first two passages, the first two relevant passages in this document. It

20 says: "With regard to your telegram number 02/30-10 of the 28th of

21 February, 1993, we hereby inform you that we still have not activated the

22 document using the SS-1 code with Srebrenica because the document numbers

23 do not match. And following your opinion, we will not work on this

24 anymore."

25 "As far as the application of KZ in the CV in Eastern Bosnia is

Page 7644

1 concerned, we only have shortwave communication using code tables with

2 Cerska and Srebrenica."

3 Mr. Becirovic, would I be right in saying that this document

4 indicates that in 1992 you only had communication with Tuzla, that's the

5 only communication you had was this KT communication?

6 A. Yes, you're right.

7 Q. In actual fact, you did not use codes before the 22nd of March,

8 1993, rather you used open-line communication to talk to them?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. Even after the 20th of March, 1993, I never

10 operated any piece of equipment that could be used to pass on written

11 information.

12 Q. Thank you for this clarification. It's true, isn't it, that this

13 line of communication was used to pass on brief situation reports and

14 appeals for help?

15 A. I wouldn't exactly call them reports unless what you have in

16 mind --

17 Q. Situation reports.

18 A. Unless you mean reports as in a newspaper report or a public

19 announcement. All the information that was passed on from Srebrenica only

20 had to do with the difficult humanitarian situation, with the spreading

21 infections, and with the difficult medical situation throughout the area.

22 Q. In other words, Mr. Becirovic, no orders were issued by Tuzla, no

23 regular military or other reports were ever sent there. Isn't that a

24 fact?

25 A. Yes, that's right. I never for a moment said that the military

Page 7645

1 authorities in Tuzla ever tried to get in touch with anyone in Srebrenica.

2 This was a one-way affair. Srebrenica was passing on information to

3 Sarajevo and in part to Tuzla. Such information, as I have explained,

4 usually information of a public nature and information meant for the

5 media.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

8 please be assigned a number?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document bearing ERN 01856771 and the

10 Serbo-Croat version and its -- will -- is being tendered and is being

11 marked as Defence Exhibit D262.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Becirovic, in relation to Major Velid Sabic from

14 Konjevic Polje, you said you had only sent to Tuzla a single document

15 produced by him. Isn't that the case?

16 A. Yes. I explained about that yesterday or the day before.

17 Q. It's true, isn't it, that he personally handed this document over

18 to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It was not handed over to you by Hamed Alic, nor did you request

21 or obtain from him approval to send this document on. Would I be right in

22 saying that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There were no other documents or reports by the Bratunac

25 Territorial Defence or by the Bratunac Crisis Staff that you forwarded in

Page 7646

1 1992 and up until March 1993?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this completes

5 this round of questions, and I would like to call it a day at this point.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

7 Mr. Becirovic, we are going to stop here and we will continue and

8 finish tomorrow. I thank you for bearing with us and see you tomorrow in

9 the afternoon, 2.15, in this same courtroom. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

12 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.