1 Thursday, 1 September 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Registrar, could you call the indicates,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in
11 your own language?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can
13 indeed follow the proceedings in my own language.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric. You may sit down.
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours I'm Patricia Sellers for
17 the Office of the Prosecutor. With us today are co-counsel
18 Mr. Gramsci di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson and our case manager,
19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. And good morning to the Defence also.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Sellers and good morning to you
21 and your team.
22 Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm
24 Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I represent
25 Mr. Naser Oric. And we are joined by our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina
1 Cosic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. And good morning to the
2 Prosecution as well.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic and good morning to you
4 and your team.
5 Let me start with a few good and bad news. It's start with the
6 good news. I spoke with Judge Eser yesterday and he expects to be with us
7 on Monday. Of course, it's not 100 per cent. If it does not happen, then
8 according to the -- we cannot continue to sit under Rule 15 bis(A) which
9 allows us to sit today. So I'm being clear about that. So that's number
10 1. But he expects -- I spoke to him yesterday and he expects to be here.
11 The situation is a little bit better, lass improved.
12 The other thing, you will recall that two days ago, when we had
13 that technical hitch, and during which we were supposedly in private
14 session and we were discussing -- or I was rather raising my concern to
15 the fact that the Prosecution had not yet responded to a motion, which you
16 filed confidentially pursuant to Rule 70, we agreed that -- after we
17 resumed, after the technical hitch, that we didn't have -- need to have
18 what we discussed informally at the time because it was not being formally
19 transcribed, we didn't need to have it in transcript, et cetera, and that
20 I would raise the matter the next sitting which was yesterday. And of
21 course, yesterday we started, we had a long and difficult morning, and we
22 did not deal with the matter so I'm dealing with the matter today. First
23 of all I wish to inform you that if you insist that what was discussed two
24 days ago informally in the records, you want it in the transcript, we can
25 have it in the transcript even though it does not exist in the English
1 version because it exists in the French version. So there is a French
2 version of it. If you're interested we have -- we can have it translated.
3 However, what my suggestion is, to go in private session for a couple of
4 minutes now, we deal with it, Ms. Sellers will update us on the situation,
5 and then we will decide what to do. If you are agreeable to this. I see
6 the Defence nodding. I see the Prosecution nodding so let's go into
7 private session for a couple of minutes, please.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 10131 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing which literally took me a little bit
7 by surprise this morning, although I knew that it was in the offing,
8 particularly with regard to Courtroom III is that construction work is
9 scheduled for the three court rooms at different times, of course, but
10 partly overlapping. To be precise, part -- the latter part of the
11 reconstruction work for Courtroom I will overlap with the first part of
12 the construction work for Courtroom III and the last part required for the
13 reconstruction of Courtroom II would overlap with the first part needed
14 for the reconstruction of Courtroom I.
15 We are talking of a space that starts of a period of time that
16 starts from November and right through the end of February.
17 Courtroom II will be affected it seems during the months of
18 November and December. Courtroom I, it seems, will be affected during the
19 months of December and January. That's where the least harm is done. And
20 Courtroom III will be affected during the months of January and February.
21 Now, I am also told by way of comfort, which I am relaying that,
22 that while this work is going on, first of all, the Court -- the relative
23 courtrooms will not be available. In other words, while -- for example,
24 Courtroom II is undergoing construction, it will be, I am told, completely
25 closed for trial purposes. Courtroom I, you know, is busy every morning
1 or most mornings with one particular case. So although I am assured that
2 every attention is being taken and plans are underway to obstruct the
3 least possible this, the smooth planning and progress of cases. I am
4 pretty sure that our case, like other cases, will probably be to an extent
5 affected. We will definitely have to move, I'm preparing you for this,
6 from courtroom to courtroom but that is no big deal. We've done it in the
7 past and it wouldn't worry me in the least, but I think there may be --
8 don't consider it a problem, but there may be problems on the way.
9 I promise you that I will, together with my two colleagues, do our
10 level best to secure courtroom space as much as possible, not to delay the
11 case any further, and because of there of course I will keep you informed
12 as we go along.
13 But it is bound to cause some problems. It is bound to cause some
14 problems. I'll try to make sure as much as possible beforehand that we
15 know the exact dates when we will not be sitting, if at all, so that you
16 would know and you would ensure that you don't bring witnesses here for
18 So it's -- just came to my desk this morning and I will be
19 discussing it -- doesn't depend much on us but in so far as it depends on
20 us we will do our utmost but we will discuss it with the authorities here
21 to see what can be done to avoid undesired stoppages, but these works have
22 to be undertaken. It's not something which is being capriciously done
23 because all the courtrooms need to be enlarged to extend their capacity,
24 particularly in view of joinders that are taking place and may take place
25 as well.
1 So, of course, we understand the situation.
2 Next thing is, before we bring in the witness, I would like to
3 know whether you have any preliminaries.
4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we have no preliminaries but just
5 arising out of your last comment, this morning we did receive a schedule,
6 I believe, on the remaining court days and I just want to know at this
7 point in time should we use this as the basis that will be modified or --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. This is -- this was obviously prepared
9 without consideration being given to the fact that between, for example,
10 December and -- November and December, Courtroom II will be unavailable,
11 and, as you know, we mostly work in Courtroom II.
12 MS. SELLERS: Right.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't know what to tell you, Ms. Sellers, but
14 the thing is I will take it up with the authorities without much delay.
15 MS. SELLERS: We appreciate that very much.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Immediately. And I promise you I'll do my very
17 best. I have got every interest to see this case come to an end, as --
18 you know that.
19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much, no other preliminaries for our
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So what you have received is sitting days will
22 definitely be subject to some alterations as we go ahead, and I will try
23 to give you prior notice, sufficient notice of the time, I mean. Yes any
24 preliminaries on your side?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, before -- you can bring in the
2 witness in the meantime. Please keep in your mind, take consideration
3 what we went through yesterday and if I tell you to stop and we have a
4 break, please try to cooperate as much as you can.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, good morning to Your Honours.
6 I will keep yesterday in mind and allow for breaks as well as look to
7 Your Honour for directions on that area.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 WITNESS: SABRA KOLENOVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Kolenovic, good morning to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. You see we are sitting in a much
15 bigger courtroom this morning. We have more space. You don't need to
16 repeat the solemn declaration that you made yesterday. It still applies
17 today. So I invite you to make yourself comfortable straight away, and I
18 hope you've had time to unwind a little bit and rest and that you are
19 fresh now and prepared for the cross-examination that Ms. Richardson from
20 the Prosecution bench will be proceeding with very shortly.
21 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, before we
23 get started perhaps I could have the usher's assistance in lowering the
24 ELMO a bit.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Or moving it backwards.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Moving it back. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it well placed now Ms. Richardson?
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much. Thank you
4 to the usher as well.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:
6 Q. Good morning, Ms. Kolenovic. As Your Honour indicated my name is
7 Joanne Richardson and I'm a lawyer with the Prosecution. This morning I
8 will have a series of questions for you clarifying some information that
9 you gave yesterday about your experiences in Srebrenica. If for any
10 reason you do not understand my question, I would ask you to indicate that
11 if we are unclear about the dates, please inform me so that I will either
12 rephrase the question or we will pinpoint what date I'm referring to.
13 Also, if you would keep your answers as brief as possible, it's my
14 intention to get through your testimony today. Of course, if you need to
15 expound on your answer and give us additional information, feel free to do
16 so as well.
17 I would first like to start off by asking you about Srebrenica. I
18 believe you said you lived in Srebrenica all of your life; is that
20 A. It is.
21 Q. And you were born there, you went to school there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And your husband, Ramic, is that correct, his first name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What is his first name?
1 A. Ramiz, with a Z.
2 Q. I thank you very much and if I don't pronounce anyone else's name
3 correctly this morning, please feel free to correct me. Was your husband
4 also born in Srebrenica and did he go to school there as well?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Where was he born?
7 A. He was born in Montenegro.
8 Q. And were you married in Srebrenica as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when did your husband move to Srebrenica, if you know?
11 A. In 1978.
12 Q. Your children were born in Srebrenica, I take it?
13 A. Not both of them. My youngest son was born in Srebrenica, Elvis,
14 and the second one, that is to say the eldest, was born in Serbia, in a
15 place called Dubova [as interpreted].
16 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about what you did prior to the war,
17 prior to the outbreak in 1992. I believe you testified that you were
18 working for a company; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you do for them?
21 A. In the accounting service. I worked as an accountant.
22 Q. I see. And your husband, what did he do prior to the outbreak of
23 the war?
24 A. He was an electrician.
25 Q. I take it you -- both you and your husband had family members
1 living in Srebrenica, is that -- would that be correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's talk about some of your family members. Your parents live
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you have brothers, sisters, cousins, nephews, in laws, as
8 A. No.
9 Q. You didn't have any brothers?
10 A. I had brothers and sisters, and a big family, and -- but I did not
11 have anyone on my husband's side.
12 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. Clearly, I asked one question too
13 many. So how many brothers did you have and how many sisters did you
15 A. Two sisters and a brother.
16 Q. And was your family members in Srebrenica during the war?
17 A. My mother and my father were there.
18 Q. And your brother was not, or your sister?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And just to be clear, your husband did not have any relatives in
21 Srebrenica during the time of the war, or before?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, with respect to your extended family, if you had one, did you
24 have cousins that resided in Srebrenica?
25 A. During the war? I don't understand the question. Could you
1 please repeat it? You mean during the war?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Any uncles or aunts who resided in Srebrenica during the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us how many uncles did you have that resided in
7 Srebrenica during the war? That's the period that I'm interested in.
8 A. I had two aunts, an uncle, and then this uncle had a son, another
9 uncle had a son, also an uncle's sister, aunts, their sons. I had a lot
10 of relatives.
11 Q. And could you tell us -- just give us a general idea about the
12 ages of the relatives that you had? Were they elderly to very young? Did
13 their ages vary?
14 A. They were both old and young.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about some of the residents in Srebrenica
16 since you've lived there for a very long time, all of your life. In
17 particular, I'd ask if you know Ramiz Beserovic?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that she has understood. I
19 wasn't following in B/C/S. I'm following in English, of course, but you
20 mean Becirevic.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Becirevic. Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it Ramiz or Ramis.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: It's Ramiz.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: With a Z. Ramiz.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I knew Ramiz Becirevic.
1 MS. RICHARDSON:
2 Q. And what did he do prior to the war?
3 A. I don't know. Maybe he was at the staff or in the municipal
4 office. I saw him around. I don't know exactly what job he was doing.
5 Q. And during the war, did you see him in Srebrenica?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... where he was at the times
8 that you saw him?
9 A. At the post office.
10 Q. Do you know Hakija Meholjic?
11 A. Meholjic.
12 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with him as well?
13 A. Yes. That was my neighbour at the place where I was born in
15 Q. And did you have occasion to see him during the war?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where was he?
18 A. At the Domavija hotel.
19 Q. Now, you mentioned seeing Mr. Becirevic at the post office. Is
20 that also referred to as the PTT building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And are you familiar with what Mr. Halilovic did prior to the
23 war? Meholjic, excuse me, Meholjic, thank you.
24 A. Yes. He was a police officer.
25 Q. Are you familiar with Akif Ustic?
1 A. Yes. That's a distant relative.
2 Q. And what did he do prior to the war?
3 A. He was a physical education teacher.
4 Q. Now, some of the other individuals I'd like to ask you about, I
5 guess first I should ask you whether you are familiar with others who
6 lived not only in the town of Srebrenica but in the surrounding villages
7 as well. Do you know some of those individuals? Were you familiar with
9 A. Some who had come to live in Srebrenica and who built houses
10 there. In peace time, I never went to any of the villages. I didn't even
11 know that there were so many villages around Srebrenica.
12 Q. Were you familiar with -- either prior -- this individual that I'm
13 about to ask you about, either prior to or during the war, Mirzet
15 A. Before the war?
16 Q. Did you know him -- did you know him before the war?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what did he do prior to the war?
19 A. I don't know. He's a relative but I really don't know. We didn't
20 really visit each other.
21 Q. Did you see him in Srebrenica during the war?
22 A. Once, in passing.
23 Q. And when you saw him, where was he?
24 A. On the street.
25 Q. And do you know if he had any particular responsibility in
1 Srebrenica during the war?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Were you also familiar with Osman Osmanovic?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And when I ask were you familiar with him, if either during the
6 war or before. So you didn't -- you've never met him at either periods?
7 A. No. I don't know who Osman Osmanovic is.
8 Q. Now, I believe you mentioned Akif Ustic, that he's a distant
9 relative and that he was a physical education teacher before the war,
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And during the war, did you happen to meet him on any occasion?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So during all of 1992, you didn't see him at all?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did your husband know Akif Ustic?
17 A. He knew him but he didn't see him during the war.
18 Q. How is it that you know that?
19 A. I know he never said anything, only when Akif was killed, he told
20 me that Akif was killed. This was information that spread quickly through
21 the town.
22 Q. And do you know if he also knew Mr. Meholjic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did your husband see him during the war?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did your husband tell you what the circumstances were when he
2 would see Mr. Meholjic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did he tell you how often he saw him?
5 A. Well, I can just explain it like this. When my brother-in-law, my
6 sister's husband, came to Srebrenica, when Nurif came with the soldiers,
7 then my brother-in-law, who lived in Bratunac before the war with my
8 sister, came from Tuzla to Srebrenica, they brought medicines, and my
9 brother-in-law was in the unit, in Hakija Meholjic's unit.
10 Q. And could you just tell me the name of -- the full name of your
11 brother-in-law again?
12 A. Bekir Smajlovic from Bratunac. He was killed in 1993.
13 Q. Are you familiar with Hamid Salilovic?
14 A. Perhaps Hamid Salihovic. That's a last name that you have in
16 Q. Thank you. That's exactly who I was referring to. Did you know
17 him prior to the war?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you know him during the war?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever heard of Zulfo Tursunovic?
22 A. Yes. Before the war.
23 Q. And what did you know of Mr. Tursunovic?
24 A. Before the war, I knew that he had -- I don't know, in a cafe or
25 something, something happened, and he was convicted for that, and that's
1 how I knew him before the war.
2 Q. Did you see him during the war?
3 A. Perhaps a couple of times, just in passing.
4 Q. And what role, if any, did he play in Srebrenica during the war?
5 A. I don't know. Everybody was talking about it, that he was a
6 commander or something. I don't really understand these military things
7 so I really wouldn't -- I don't know. I wasn't interested in that.
8 Q. I understand. Well, did your husband ever talk about Zulfo
9 Tursunovic, meeting with him or talk about him in any other capacity?
10 A. No, never.
11 Q. And also, I would ask if you know Naser Oric. And this is before
12 the war specifically.
13 A. No.
14 Q. During the war, did you meet him or come to know of him?
15 A. Yes. I heard of him, and I met him just once.
16 Q. And when did you meet him?
17 A. When I was in the hospital, when there were a lot of killed and
18 wounded and when my brother-in-law was killed.
19 Q. And could you tell us about the circumstances of the meeting? Did
20 you have a conversation with him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And what was he doing when you saw him at the hospital?
23 A. There were thousands, several thousand people around the hospital.
24 Everybody will come to see who had been wounded, and I was there. I was
25 helping in the hospital. All of us civilians, women, girls, were there
1 helping. There were a lot of people who were wounded and they were lying
2 around the hospital, as far as the post office, and that's how I knew
3 Naser. It was just that one meeting. It was like this. Somebody was
4 crying a lot and wailing and shouting and they were hitting their head at
5 the -- against the hospital wall and I was asking who had been killed.
6 That was close to this person and somebody said that that was Naser. I
7 didn't really look that much. I just kind of glanced but somebody said it
8 was Naser and that he was beating his head against the wall and he was
9 wailing and shouting and crying because of all of the people that had been
11 Q. And do you recall after what action this took place, when you saw
13 A. This was in January, when my brother-in-law was killed, maybe in
14 mid-January. I don't know exactly which date. I can't remember the date.
15 Q. But we are talking about 1993, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall if you had gone searching for food around that time,
18 either on that day or the day before?
19 A. No. That was later, in January.
20 Q. All right. But I'm trying to determine exactly when it was that
21 you saw Naser, and --
22 A. In January 1993, mid-January. I don't know if it was the 17th,
23 the 18th or the 15th of January. I really can't remember exactly.
24 Q. I understand. Do you recall -- well, you testified that your
25 brother-in-law had been killed. Is that correct? Was it around that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you recall what action your brother-in-law was involved in?
4 A. At the lake, Jezero. I also went to Jezero, and then I returned
5 because of the shelling. There were a lot of wounded and I came back.
6 Q. Was your husband also involved in this action at Jezero?
7 A. My husband was there. My husband went everywhere where you could
8 find any food.
9 Q. Now, getting back to what you know about -- what you knew or what
10 you were told about Naser Oric, what was it exactly that you knew about
12 A. I really didn't know anything much because I wasn't interested.
13 The most important thing for me were my children, my family, my family. I
14 never thought of myself first but of my children, my parents, my husband.
15 That was the most important thing to me. I didn't have time to ask who
16 was Zulfo, who was Naser, who was Hakija, what they were doing. I really
17 wasn't interested in that at all.
18 Q. No. I understand. When you were in the hospital, though, and the
19 person said that that's Naser, what else did they say about him? Was he
20 important, that this is why this person was pointing him out to you?
21 A. That's what they told me. Also about Zulfo. They also told me
22 about Zulfo. I didn't know who Zulfo was. In passing, just by
23 coincidence somebody would call out Zulfo, and then I knew. They were
24 some kind of commanders. I don't know. I don't know how they were
25 organised or anything like that. I really don't know.
1 I really don't want you to -- I'm not some kind of military
2 strategist here so that you would ask me about such details, key details.
3 I'm only here because I want to tell the truth, and I don't want to say
4 one single lie. As I said, for ten years I have been looking for missing
5 persons and we have been proving the truth and we have been trying to
6 secure the future for our country and for the coming generations in
7 Srebrenica, from 1992, from day one, when the Serbs came, there was only
8 death and catastrophe and nothing more.
9 Q. I understand perfectly that you're not a military expert. My
10 question only has to do with what you were told, what you heard about
11 Naser Oric or Zulfo Tursunovic so that the record is clear --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?
13 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, it's a couple of matters. Firstly,
14 the witness has been asked whether anything else was said apart from that
15 it was Naser and I believe she's answered that that's what she was told,
16 it was Naser and she wasn't told anything else. There is a more -- and so
17 I would object to my learned friend persisting. If the witness's answer
18 that that's all she heard that he was pointed out, and the same with
19 Zulfo, and that she didn't know anything more, then she shouldn't persist
20 with that line of questioning.
21 More importantly, I've -- for the last sort of ten minutes from
22 raising one point because it didn't particularly seem to be going anywhere
23 but according to Rule 90(H)(i), cross-examination, of course, is limited
24 to the subject matter of evidence-in-chief and matters affecting
25 credibility. Of course, where the witness is able to give evidence
1 relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, they can do so. But I
2 don't understand that Rule to allow a fishing expedition where the
3 Prosecution simply probes and asks just in the hope of getting some
4 information from the witness which might be helpful. If there is actually
5 something clear, a point which the Prosecution either want to put to the
6 witness or something which we have a basis for trying to establish with
7 the witness, that's one thing. But to simply, as I say, to go on a
8 fishing expedition when I haven't in examination-in-chief mentioned Naser
9 Oric or Zulfo Tursunovic or any of these people, just to probe endlessly
10 in the hope the witness might mention something is not in my submission
11 within the contemplation of Rule 90(H)(i). The Prosecution should have to
12 say what, what are they trying to establish in this line of questioning.
13 What actually are they after.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: And clearly perhaps we need to.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: There mat hears arisen in the past when you were --
16 whether I say you, I mean, your -- the Defence. So I think it has been
17 dealt with already.
18 Yes. Ms. Richardson, let me hear what you have to say.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, certainly, Your Honour, the witness has
20 testified that -- well, first --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we keep the witness in or at one time at one
23 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask that we have this discussion outside
24 the presence of the witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, we need to discuss something for which you
1 need not be present. So Madam Usher will escort you out of the courtroom
2 for a few minutes. Stay within reach, please.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's put it like this. Let me hear you first,
5 Ms. Richardson, and then I'll just explain what Rule 90, the relevant part
6 of Rule 90 states.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: I think my response will go directly to the
10 relevance. The portion of the rule, section H(1) which speaks to giving
11 evidence that is relevant to the case as it pertains to cross-examination,
12 and I do believe that counsel, Defence counsel, cannot make the argument
13 that trying to elicit from the witness the role of the Accused in
14 Srebrenica at the time is not relevant.
15 Not only that, Your Honour, during the examination-in-chief,
16 counsel examined the witness as to what was going on in Srebrenica at the
17 time and I think that certainly we need to determine exactly who the
18 players were in Srebrenica. And my line of questioning has to do with
19 exactly what the witness knew about certain individuals, what she knew
20 about actions which was raised by Defence counsel yesterday. And Defence
21 counsel himself on prior occasions has said and I quote, as pertaining --
22 as it pertains to cross-examination, Mr. Jones stated on the 23rd of
23 March, during his cross-examination of Mr. Bogilovic, he stated, "I will
24 leave discreetly halfway through," and I'm quoting at this
25 time. "Secondly I apologise if my intervention earlier was not welcome.
1 It was really a problem. I felt should be made which is that there have
2 been a -- there have been continuing objections by the Prosecution that
3 matters were not raised during examination-in-chief. And I think it has
4 to be said that it's crystal clear from Rule 90(H)(i) that we were not
5 limited to only matters that have been raised in examination-in-chief. If
6 there is evidence which relevant to the case for the cross-examining party
7 then of course it can be cross-examined upon and indeed it would be absurd
8 and unfair if the witness could give very helpful evidence to the Defence
9 and he was not allowed to give that evidence because the Prosecution has
10 not asked him about it."
11 And so, Your Honour, we are back to the reverse situation where
12 Mr. Jones has conducted his examination-in-chief, my cross-examination has
13 to do with relevant and pertinent matters. It could be argued that these
14 are the most relevant and pertinent matters in this case, one of them, in
15 any event, and I think that this is clearly not a fishing expedition and
16 this witness has valuable information to offer about Srebrenica and the
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to reply, Mr. Jones?
19 MR. JONES: Yes. Yes, Your honour, just briefly. Firstly as far
20 as Rule 90(H)(i) is concerned I mentioned it at the outset today. I'm
21 obviously not going to dispute the Rule 90(H)(i). It says what it says.
22 Of course it does. On the previous occasion whether this came up, there
23 were interruptions from the Prosecution that matters hadn't been raised in
24 examination-in-chief and I quite properly pointed out that Rule 90(H)(1)
25 says what it does, and when challenged on that occasion it was to do with
1 I think Hazim from Voljavica and the look-alike, I think a look-alike to
2 Naser Oric and we said that's plainly relevant and that was dealt with
3 properly on that occasion. So I don't see what possible bearing what
4 happened on that occasion has with today.
5 As far as this matter is concerned, it's one thing to say -- and
6 I'm glad the Prosecution spelt out why they are asking about Akif and
7 Zulfo and the rest of it. But if it's to work out what the role, if any,
8 of those persons were that's one thing they can put the matter to the
9 witness. "Do you know what role, if any, these people had," and she can
10 answer. In fact, she has answered very clearly, "I don't know anything
11 about what their roles were, I'm not a military strategist, I don't know
12 those details." In fact she has answered that question and we should
13 probably move on in any event. But that's quite different from saying,
14 "Did you ever hear of so and so, did you have a conversation with him,
15 what did he say?" That clearly is a fishing expedition because it's
16 hoping that perhaps the witness will let drop something. It's quite
17 different from just saying "Do you know Akif Ustic, do you know what role
18 if any he had in Srebrenica," yes, no, and then moving on. So I draw a
19 distinction between those different ways of proceeding.
20 [Trial chamber confers]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are trying to be as brief as possible, so not to
22 take time out of that which is required for the completion of the
23 testimony of this witness.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, may I just interrupt you just
25 briefly so that I can add that, indeed, when I asked about various
1 individuals and what roles they played, if any, this goes directly into
2 what was asked in examination-in-chief about local authorities. So I have
3 just simply presented a series of questions to determine who was there and
4 what role, whether be it as authoritative figure or not that person may
5 have played in Srebrenica. Not only is it part of the
6 examination-in-chief, it's relevant.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The position as put forward by paragraph H of
8 Rule 90 is clear. It does not give place for any interpretation,
9 basically, because it's a clear piece of law. We've dealt with it in the
10 past. As you know, cross-examination, as imported here, is not exactly
11 the cross-examination that is standard everywhere because the rules vary
12 from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
13 The position is as follows: That normally cross-examination
14 should be limited to the subject matter of the evidence-in-chief, as we
15 all know, and that's the essence of -- but also, as rightly pointed out by
16 Mr. Jones to matters affecting the credibility of witnesses, and this, you
17 establish as you go along and not beforehand. I would never know exactly
18 why a question is being put, whether it's to test the credibility of a
19 witness, until most of the time we have proceeded quite -- but also
20 cross-examination is allowed where the witness is able to give evidence
21 relevant to the case for the cross-examining party to the subject matter
22 of the -- of that case.
23 Now, this is explained in the next paragraph, subparagraph, and it
24 is predicated, as you all know, on the assumption or on the established
25 fact that there is a contradiction between the evidence given by the -- by
1 the witness and the nature of the case that the examining counsel or
2 cross-examining counsel is interested in. If this is the case, then there
3 is only one requirement which we haven't -- we haven't so far come to that
4 stage in this particular cross-examination. In that case, you need to put
5 the witness on notice, and you need to explain to the witness the nature
6 of the case which you consider to be in contradiction with the witness --
7 with what the witness would be testifying. Then there is the overriding,
8 I would say, discretionary power of the Trial Chamber itself to allow
9 enquiry into additional matters. Now, obviously we would intervene there
10 if we hear an objection from your part and we will obviously need to know
11 from the cross-examining counsel what is being sought from the witness,
12 and then we will decide of course whether to allow additional inquiry into
13 additional matters.
14 Until now, I think although we may have chosen the -- a lengthy
15 path to get to the answers or to the information that the Prosecution was
16 seeking by the cross-examination, I think we are still there, and I don't
17 think there is need for the Trial Chamber to intervene. What we are
18 doing -- what we would like you to do is to cut short, if necessary, the
19 route that you may -- you may envisage, that you need, in order to seek
20 the information from the witness. I mean, you are in cross-examination
21 and you can go really direct. So if you can do that, we will recuperate
22 time and also try to possibly finish.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We do see the relevance of what you --
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed. Just so it's clear as this discussion is
1 taking place outside of the witness it may appear as though I'm asking
2 questions that are seemingly going no where. But in fact they are going
3 somewhere and I just haven't gotten to that point yet. The series of
4 questions I asked initially about what various people did for a living,
5 well, the witness testified yesterday that all elicited by Mr. Jones that
6 all of the educated persons in Srebrenica had left. So I saw it fit to
7 inquire as to it who remained and what they did for a living. That goes
8 directly to what was inquired about yesterday and certainly to whether or
9 not it is the fact that the educated people left. So I'd ask the Bench to
10 bear with me as I'm asking some of these questions that may seem at first
11 glance to not have a purpose. But indeed, every question that I'm asking
12 does have a purpose.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: And is relevant and probative.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's your point of view and point taken, of
16 course, but if we have an objection we will have to attend to that
17 objection as well.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And if the objection is valid, of course we will ask
20 you to move to another question.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, indeed. Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So is it clear enough?
23 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you.
25 Usher, could you please readmit --
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, and if I mispronounce your name, please correct me.
5 I seem to have a heavy tongue this morning. Did your husband talk about
6 Naser Oric?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, you testified yesterday as well as this morning earlier that
9 your husband -- I'll rephrase the question.
10 During the period of time that you were in your apartment during
11 that 20-day period that you talked about yesterday, when the Serbs were in
12 Srebrenica, do you recall that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you testified that your husband was not with you at the time
15 and in fact he was hiding in the woods. Do you recall that evidence?
16 A. Yes. He wasn't in the woods, in fact. He had gone to check on my
17 parents, to Petrica, and my parents used to live at Petrica, and later on
18 when he came back, he told me that they were forced to take to the woods
19 to hide from the Serbs because the Serbs used to get into houses at
20 Petrica. First of all, they took cars and then all the household
21 appliances, and some people were even killed and three or four houses were
22 set on fire.
23 Q. Yes, indeed, I do recall that testimony from yesterday. But
24 during the time following -- I'll rephrase the question. At some point he
25 went to the woods, along with all of the able-bodied men, I think you
2 A. No. No, I didn't put it quite like that.
3 Q. All right. So did there come a point in time that he did go to
4 the woods?
5 A. No. When he came back, when the whole family was reunited once
6 again over that period, those 20-odd days, I don't know how precise I can
7 be here, but together with the rest of the population that had stayed in
8 Petrica, and together with my parents, he went to the woods. He didn't go
9 with all those other men but with the population in general. The entire
10 population that was in that street, I mean, I don't know who stayed behind
11 because I was in another part of town. They all took to the woods nearby.
12 Q. Okay. And --
13 A. That's what I meant. I don't know how you interpreted my
15 Q. No. And I appreciate your clarifying that, but certainly they
16 were in the woods, including the men who were not in their apartments, or
17 not in their houses?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did he mention the names of any other individuals that he was
20 with, other than the general population?
21 A. It was just the population, no one else.
22 Q. Did he -- did he mention whether Hakija Meholjic was there, or
23 Akif Ustic?
24 A. No. We found out later that they were very close.
25 Q. And did he mention Naser Oric as being among the people that he
1 was with?
2 A. I don't know how to explain this to you.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Fine, thank you. Was your husband in a unit? When I mean a unit,
6 such as you mentioned that your brother-in-law was in a unit. Was your
7 husband in a unit as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And which unit was he in, do you know?
10 A. I don't know, but I know that he was with somebody called Mido and
11 I don't know his family name. I mean, I myself as a mother was primarily
12 interested in other things and not that.
13 Q. I understand. Did he mention anyone other than Mido as being in
14 this unit?
15 A. I can't remember, but for example if someone was killed or
16 wounded, he would give me the name of the person. But I didn't know all
17 of them because there were quite a few people from other municipalities,
18 new arrivals in my town, so I really didn't know them. I can say that I
19 knew some people whom I've already mentioned such as Hakija Meholjic who
20 was a neighbour, and some other neighbours over many years. I can say
21 something about those people. But I saw them very rarely because there
22 were huge numbers of refugees. So actually I didn't even come across the
23 locals very often. My primary interest was sheer survival for myself and
24 my children and how I could protect my children from shelling, from the
25 killings and how I could get food. I didn't really have much spare time.
1 I didn't have a split second in which to consider what anyone else was
2 doing or where they were going or what they were up to. Nobody asked any
3 questions or paid any heed to that sort of thing.
4 Q. I understand. And you stated that you didn't -- your house would
5 mention to you when someone died and you didn't know everyone, that they
6 were refugees. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And his unit was made up of -- and so his unit was made up of
9 refugees, as well as men from Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes. In that part of town where we were, there were not too many
11 locals in the area, perhaps just a couple. Most of the people were
12 refugees. Only in Petrici, most of the population were locals from
13 Srebrenica, in the Petrici street for the most part.
14 Q. Did he ever mention to you how many men were in his unit?
15 A. It wasn't a unit as such. Everybody went looking for food like I
16 did. I don't think we can consider it to be a unit or for it to be an
17 army or something. I really can't talk much about that because I think
18 somebody else would be a more appropriate person. Perhaps my husband
19 could come and testify here. I'm here to tell the truth but I don't know
20 about these things.
21 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment. Is your husband alive,
22 Ms. Kolenovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... former Yugoslavia?
25 A. In the former Yugoslavia, yes. He lives in Sarajevo.
1 Q. Thank you. Did he have -- your husband, that is, did he have a
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's be time specific, please.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Q. In 1992, during the period of the war, did he have a weapon? 1992
6 and, of course, 1993.
7 A. No. When he was in Bjelovac, he found a rifle, I don't know what
8 rifle -- I don't know whether it was an automatic or some other rifle but
9 he found it in a Serb house in Bjelovac, but I'm not into arms. Even
10 before the war, I hated the sight of armed police officers, even though
11 that's something you need in every country.
12 Q. Prior to that, did he have a weapon?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. And did he bring this weapon home that he found in
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And other than this weapon, did he have any other weapons that you
18 know of?
19 A. Yes. He found two big knives. They were very big, and they had
20 blades on both sides, and he brought those weapons home, and I said to
21 him, I hated the sight of those things in my house and that he should
22 throw them out and get rid of them.
23 Q. Do you recall when it was that he brought the knives home with
24 him, where he got them?
25 A. When he was in Bjelovac. It was in winter.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And other than your husband, and your brother-in-law, the other
2 male relatives that you mention who were in Srebrenica, were they also
3 part of a group of men who would go out and fight?
4 A. Everyone went somewhere. As to whether they fought or whether
5 they didn't, they all fought for their lives. I can't be very specific
6 about this. I didn't really have any contact with my family at the time.
7 I simply didn't have time. I didn't have time to go and visit my extended
8 family. I just sometimes visited my parents and I had two sons and I
9 needed to get food for them and my husband went looking for food as well.
10 I had elderly parents and it was quite enough. I had enough on my plate
11 as it was.
12 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to just change to another topic for a moment.
13 The pictures that were shown to you yesterday, I'd like to show them to
14 you and ask you a bit of -- ask you to give us a bit more information
15 about what we saw in the pictures.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I could have the usher's
17 assistance in showing the witness photograph number 1, P725 [sic].
18 MR. JONES: Maybe we should say it's D725.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What did she say?
20 MR. JONES: It says P the transcript.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Definitely that's wrong. It's D725.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
24 MS. RICHARDSON:
25 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, if you take a look at the photograph, I believe
1 it's on Sanction as well, is that -- Ms. Kolenovic, if you look at the
2 ELMO, at the photograph that you were shown yesterday?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm not sure -- oh, she is. Okay. I apologise.
5 Q. Could you first tell us who was it that gave you this photograph?
6 A. The 10th anniversary of the events in Srebrenica was marked
7 recently and, at Potocari, somebody gave a big album with those photos to
8 my president and when I got to the association premises I found this on
9 the desk. And they brought those photos along so that people could
10 perhaps recognise someone on those photos. It was when General Morillon
11 entered Srebrenica and when the doctors came in, and so one of them took
12 those photos. Because we've got more. It's a big, fat album, and there
13 are pictures of those people who had come in at that time.
14 Q. Do you recall what month it was -- and this is 1993, I assume,
15 you're referring to.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall what month it was that General Morillon came?
18 A. April, perhaps. I'm not sure.
19 Q. And you pointed out in the photograph your house, your apartment.
20 Do you recall that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And as you look --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as you look at this photograph, do you recall whether looking
25 at the scene in this photograph, such as, for instance, there is a truck
1 here, you see that?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And the truck has in it some debris? You see that? There seems
4 to be an old car and other types of debris in it.
5 A. Yes. Perhaps it's my car even, but I had seen a similar one in
6 town later but it was green.
7 Q. All right. And there is a horse in the picture as well. Do you
8 see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, first I'd like to ask you -- let's take the horse
11 first. Were there many horses in Srebrenica during the war and leading up
12 until the point when this picture was taken?
13 A. Well, I don't know if there had been very many but there were
15 Q. And who owned them, do you know?
16 A. No, no, no, no. I didn't understand what you meant. There were
17 people and horses. I saw more people than horses, but -- could I perhaps
19 Q. Absolutely, please.
20 A. Oh, that was because there were no means of transport, so people
21 would build some kind of wooden structures or they would use the wheels
22 off containers or smashed cars, and they made trolleys to carry wood or
23 whatever. So actually they were drawing those trolleys or carriages, make
24 shift carriages so it was the people that acted as horses. And as I said
25 before, in spite of all the progress, having been made by the human
1 civilisation at that point in time, we had been thrown back by 500 years
2 by the Serbs. We didn't have anything for firewood. If I were to tell
3 you that I wasted three to four house hours going from door-to-door.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Please restrict your answer to the question
5 that was put to you. Don't give us more information.
6 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
8 Q. So Ms. Kolenovic, is it correct that the people including yourself
9 and others, the people who lived in Srebrenica, including the refugees,
10 used whatever means they could as a form of transportation? In other
11 words, apparatus that they constructed, acted themselves as horses, used
12 cars, perhaps the wheels on the cars, to transport things?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And there were also horses? Animal, itself?
15 A. Yes. There were horses as well.
16 Q. And these were -- I'll withdraw that question.
17 Now, let's talk about the truck for a moment. This truck appears
18 to be operational. Do you recall if you saw this truck or other trucks in
19 Srebrenica around this -- the time period that this photograph was taken?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So not only this truck but you may have seen other trucks as well?
22 A. I only saw one truck, that Ramo Hljebara used to carry the wounded
23 in. That is to say when they had fuel. If they had no fuel, they
24 couldn't do that. So I saw that one truck that Ramo Hljebara was using to
25 carry the wounded and that was it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones?
2 MR. JONES: It was just a clarification of the time frame because
3 the first question referred to when the photograph was taken, so 93, and
4 then the flex question so not only this truck but you may have seen other
5 trucks as well, since it's time unspecific we are not sure what the answer
6 is going to refer to.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please address this with a specific question,
10 MS. RICHARDSON: I will.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Also, at there point, I think it's pertinent to know
12 whether this truck that Madam has been describing to us is the same truck
13 that we see in the photo or not.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed. Indeed.
15 Q. Just so that we are clear about your answer, the truck that you
16 saw --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We will need to have a break in two minutes or a few
18 minutes' time any way.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll end on this topic.
20 Q. The truck that you saw Ramo carrying the wounded in, when -- what
21 time period was this?
22 A. In 1993, when the UNPROFOR people came.
23 Q. Did you see it in 1992?
24 A. Occasionally. Very rarely, because I was basically next door to
25 the hospital. Very rarely. Perhaps if they could find some fuel,
1 occasionally but it was very rarely. I can't tell you I did not see him
2 because I did, but it was very rarely, perhaps some two or three
3 occasions. I didn't count really. I can't be very precise about this. I
4 mean, as to how many times.
5 Q. I understand. Is this the same truck that you saw?
6 A. No.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think we can take a break now,
8 thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, before the break we were discussing the photographs
15 and I'd like you to take a look at it again. I'm just seeking to elicit
16 information about what we see in the photograph itself. We were talking
17 about vehicles and you stated that this is not the vehicle that you saw in
18 1992 that belonged to the person you knew; is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. No, that's not the vehicle?
21 A. The truck.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. I said that I used to see the truck and that I used to see another
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, did you -- I see here in the photograph
1 that there seems to be some clothing to the right of the photograph,
2 that's -- appears to be clothes hung out to dry in the apartment building.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. So now in the period that this picture was taken, which I believe
6 you stated it was given to you and it was believed to have been taken
7 following demilitarisation, during that period of time, you yourself and
8 other residents in Srebrenica were able to wash your clothes, hang it out
9 to dry, in other words have a sense of normalcy to life?
10 A. Yes. We had to wash our clothes, what we had, of course.
11 Q. Of course. Perfectly understandable. Now, also in the photograph
12 I notice that there is no debris or garbage on the street. The street
13 looks fairly clean, in fact. Would you agree with that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So someone was picking up garage?
16 A. Yes. Those of us who lived in these two buildings, when we had
17 the time, when it got a bit quiet, then we would clean around the
18 buildings. There was a lot of wood or things.
19 Q. All right. So would it be correct to say that while things were
20 not as they were before the war, during the period of demilitarisation
21 there were some changes to make people a bit more comfortable? Would that
22 be correct?
23 A. Yes, but very few.
24 Q. Now, I'd like the usher's assistance in showing the witness
25 photograph number 2, also part of the Defence Exhibit D795?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: 725.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: 725, thank you.
3 MR. JONES: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes Mr. Jones.
5 MR. JONES: Sorry, just a matter of the interpretation. The
6 witness said [B/C/S spoken] and that was translated "yes, but very few."
7 "Yes, but very little," is another possible translation and that would
8 make more sense to the answer with, "Were there some changes?" "Yes, but
9 very little," perhaps it's -- perhaps it's all right but it didn't seem
10 the best interpretation.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Madam, have you been able to
12 follow -- Madam Kolenovic, have you understood what Mr. Jones said?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And so basically we are being asked to establish
15 whether the correct word in English would be "few" or "little". What is
16 your position on this?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I understood the
18 question well. She asked me whether the situation had changed in the
19 streets when they came. I said very little.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That explains it. Thank you. Let's
22 MS. RICHARDSON:
23 Q. Along those lines, when you talk about the changes, did this also
24 include getting food as a result of humanitarian assistance as well?
25 A. In very small quantities.
1 Q. All right. If you would look with me at the next photograph,
2 number 2, this is a photograph that you testified about yesterday,
3 indicating that the houses that we see -- well, I'll rephrase the
5 In the photograph that we see, it appears as though there are
6 piles of material, appears to be either debris or dirt, some -- some --
7 something that was probably some form of substance that was taken from the
8 buildings. Is that what we are looking at, the piles that you see?
9 A. Yes. Those are houses that burned in early 1992, in April.
10 Q. Do you know who it was that placed these piles outside the
11 buildings, these piles that we see, do we, in front of the building?
12 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think it was a Swedish organisation that
13 repaired the roofs on some of these houses later, and that's where the
14 refugees lived later.
15 Q. Now, the picture also depicts a truck. Do you see that to the
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Now, this truck, did you see this truck during 1992? And 1993,
19 early part?
20 A. Never, no. No, I didn't.
21 Q. So this would not be the truck that you told us that you saw
22 during that period?
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. During the period of 1992, did you -- were there any --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson. I notice that both on
1 this -- the number plate on this truck and on the previous truck, the
2 first section is ZV.
3 I don't know how the system was at the time in Bosnia but when you
4 see a truck with a number plate which starts with the letters ZV, does
5 that indicate anything to you? Does it indicate where that truck is
6 registered? For example, does it mean that it is a truck from Zvornik or,
7 I don't know.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My car had a licence plate TZ.
9 That's Tuzla. Perhaps for the municipality. Yes. Many cars before the
10 war that had a -- town licence plates. The car that I had, my own car,
11 had licence plates with the letters TZ.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. You also testified that there were very few vehicles in Srebrenica
15 during the war. Would that be correct? You just testified to a truck
16 that you saw.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see any cars?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So absolutely no cars were operational in 1992, that you saw?
21 A. No. When the Serbs were there, I did see them. This was in 1992.
22 Q. And in early 1993, did you happen to see a black Mercedes in
23 Srebrenica, at around the time General Morillon was present?
24 A. No, I don't remember, no.
25 Q. During that period of time when Mr. Morillon was there, there were
1 trucks that were -- that belonged to UNPROFOR perhaps or the humanitarian
3 A. Yes. When Morillon was there, there were many around the post
4 office, but I don't know if these were military vehicles, UN vehicles. I
5 don't understand. There were many around the post office.
6 Q. And in that period of time, early 1993, did you see cars other
7 than -- well, did you see cars, do you recall?
8 A. Yes. When Morillon came, there were a number of vehicles. I
9 don't know if they were military vehicles or not. I really don't know.
10 Q. I'd like to take you to another topic, ask a series of questions
11 about the refugees that came into Srebrenica. You testified that
12 thousands of them arrived at different points during 1992 and in 1993. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And many of them you didn't know, I take it, as you testified
17 A. No, I didn't know any -- any of the refugees from before the war.
18 I met some who were living close to me in the building, but otherwise
19 there were too many of them.
20 Q. You stated -- testified yesterday that you spoke with people from
21 Bratunac, refugees, and you learned that they were -- there were a number
22 of family members that were missing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And of course these people were very concerned about their family
25 members, would that be correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you know if they took any actions in terms of contacting their
3 family members or trying to locate them?
4 A. What do you mean? I don't understand. They were not able to
5 return to their places of residence any more.
6 Q. I understand. I'll rephrase the question in fact. Were you aware
7 that people from Bratunac were able to locate their family members via
8 means of radio communication in Srebrenica?
9 A. Information was -- different kinds of information was
10 disseminated. Many of them went to the Vuk Karadzic school. A lot of
11 them came to Srebrenica and then they came and they said that many men and
12 women were detained at the Vuk Karadzic school. They came with different
14 Q. During the time that they were in Srebrenica itself, did you learn
15 that they ventured to the PTT building or any other part of Srebrenica
16 where they could make contact with family members to learn what their fate
17 was, what had happened to them? Did you know about that?
18 A. That wasn't so in the beginning. There were no links or
19 communications in the beginning. This was later, perhaps in late 1992,
20 that there was a link established. I'm not exactly sure when that was but
21 for a few months, I don't know exactly for how long, perhaps it was seven,
22 eight months or six months, people didn't know anything. Many arrived who
23 were living in my building and they said that they had seen their
24 relatives who were killed. There were two or three girls who were
25 separated from their families and only one of them was of age. There was
1 also a grandmother who came with two small grandchildren, and they were
2 just a few years old. She didn't know where her son and daughter-in-law
3 were. There were hundreds of stories like that. I know only about what
4 was going on in my building.
5 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment because we do have to -- I do
6 want to finish your cross-examination today, so if you will keep your
7 answers as brief as possible. What I'm seeking from you is whether you
8 were aware that a radio system existed in Srebrenica in 1992 where people
9 could contact family members, find out what happened to them. If you
10 could give me a simple yes or no to that question.
11 A. Yes. I knew -- well, in 1993, I didn't know what was going on in
12 the post office, during those two or three months, but when I threw my
13 children on to those trucks, for six months I didn't know anything about
14 my children. I didn't know where they were, if they it were alive or not,
15 and then I went to the post office and I tried to find out something, some
16 information about my children.
17 Q. So you were aware that there was some communication taking place
18 in the post office, communication means, in other words?
19 A. In 1993, I saw that device when I went to see Ibrahim, oh, and
20 again now I cannot remember his last name. It was something like this.
21 It was a black thing. I don't understand these radio communications. It
22 was a kind of black box and it was like "hello, hello," I've -- I don't
23 really understand much about how it all works.
24 Q. Did you perhaps see Ibrahim Becirevic?
25 A. Becirevic, yes, yes.
1 Q. And when you went into this PTT building, was that the first time
2 you had been there?
3 A. No. When Morillon was there, I was there every day, in front,
4 with the children. There were thousands of us there.
5 Q. And prior to that occasion, were you there before, during 1992?
6 A. I don't know. I was there in front of the post office when I
7 fainted. I remember that well.
8 Q. Do you know if your husband visited that building in 1992 or 1993?
9 A. I don't know. He was near the hospital. I know for sure that he
10 was near the hospital.
11 Q. When you say he was near the hospital, what are you referring to?
12 A building near the hospital?
13 A. No, no. In front of the hospital. He was there in front of the
14 door on guard duty, because thousands of people would be trying to enter
15 the hospital. They had to prevent them from going into the hospital in
16 some way, and interfering with the wounded. There were a lot of problems
17 there. Somebody had to secure the door. Suddenly you would have a
18 thousand people trying to enter. It was a small hospital. There were
19 many wounded and they would just be disturbing them for no reason. I
20 mean, anyway, people were dying because of minor wounds and everybody
21 wanted to go and visit their friends or relatives when they were in such a
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour? Did you --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I wasn't quite clear in my mind when she was
25 answering about the presence of her husband in that particular place,
1 which occasion she was referring to, because I pretty much suspected that
2 she still had in her mind the occasion when General Morillon was there and
3 people were gathering in front of the PTT but please would -- could you
4 address this.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I think we need to know.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us what period of time your husband stood on guard
9 duty in front of the hospital? Was it in 1992? And 1993?
10 A. In 1993. He went in 1992, of course. Everybody went. I myself
11 was there every day. Was also working there a lot. I mean there were
12 people who were seriously wounded, dying there. The whole family would go
13 there and friends and I also tried in my own way to contribute to calming
14 the situation. It was a terrible situation. You would have thousands of
15 people trying to enter through one door. I mean, we had problems amongst
16 ourselves. You couldn't explain to anybody anything and nobody was
17 listening to you anyway. The situation was terrible. All of us, the
18 citizens, tried to help as much as we could and the refugees did as well.
19 We wanted to be good, but it was something that was stronger than us.
20 Q. Do you recall what month it was -- when you testified that your
21 husband was on guard duty in 1993, do you recall what period of time in
22 1993? Was it the early part, prior to General Morillon's arrival?
23 A. It was in early 1993, before Morillon arrived and afterwards as
24 well. I was at the hospital myself every day. I was helping. I was
25 taking sheets and bandages to the river to wash them, that we, the women,
1 brought to the hospital from our own houses in the first place in order to
2 help the wounded. I mean, it would be -- it's natural for people to want
3 to do that anyway.
4 Q. When you worked in the hospital, who was it that told you what you
5 needed to do?
6 A. Nobody told me anything. I did that on my own. Nobody paid
7 attention to me. They saw that I was doing something useful, that I was
8 taking cauldrons to the river to wash them, that I was helping the
9 wounded, giving them water, that at least I was talking to them. I
10 even -- there were some places where I couldn't go. There were a lot of
11 wounds that were rotting. There were maggots in them so for me that was
12 something that was difficult.
13 Q. Were there other women like yourself also assisting at the
15 A. I helped many girls, many girls -- I mean many were helping,
16 women, girls, they were bringing water.
17 Q. And this was in 1992 as well as early 1993?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd like to return to the topic of your husband, when he was on
20 guard duty. Prior to your husband taking up guard duty in early 1993, was
21 there someone else before him who was on guard duty as well? I mean
22 before that time period that he was there. Back in 1992?
23 A. There was always a bunch of people, men and women, in front of the
25 Q. But you testified -- and I'm asking not about the bunch of people
1 but specifically with respect to the guard aspect of the hospital because
2 you said that it was pretty chaotic. My question is: Was there a guard
3 placed at the hospital in 1992?
4 A. Yes. No. He just went there, and other men went and other women
5 went. Simply to calm things down and prevent people from getting in, in
6 large groups, but maybe three, five, ten at the time at most. We got
7 organised amongst ourselves in order to do that -- in order to make it
8 easier for the wounded upstairs, so as to prevent 2.000 to 3.000 people
9 crowding into that small hospital. There were girls, young girls helping
10 out as well.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson.
12 Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES: Sorry, it's just one thing which does occur
14 occasionally, this witness was being asked the question and having been --
15 after Ms. Richardson said -- it's no criticism of Ms Richardson, but it's
16 the way the interpretation came out. You said there, "It was pretty
17 chaotic." Witness replied, "Yes." "My question is was there a guard
18 placed at the hospital," and we could hear at that point the
19 interpretation continuing and then she said, "No."
20 It's unfortunate in the transcript you have yes, no, as if she is
21 giving a confused answer I heard very clearly she said yes to the first
22 part and no to the actual question. I just thought I should point that
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree to that, Ms. Richardson?
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. I thank you both and let's proceed.
2 Thank you.
3 MS. RICHARDSON:
4 Q. Getting back to the 1992 period and we are talking about the
5 chaotic situation at the hospital, you said that there were other men
6 there, we are talking about other men other than your husband; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So these people would change from time to time?
10 A. It wasn't actually organised. It was all spontaneous.
11 Q. I understand, but they would change, the same person wouldn't be
12 the person -- for instance if someone sat there during the day, that
13 person wouldn't be there for two days at a stretch. That's what I'm
15 A. There wasn't just one person there. There were thousands of
16 people in front of the doors, and my husband, since my apartment building
17 is next door to the hospital, he was there every day and I myself was
18 there almost every day. When he was home he would just go to the hospital
19 because it was only humane to help out. Not just I myself and my husband.
20 We all did that. I don't know how to explain that any better.
21 Q. But let's -- let me ask you this: When he stood in front of the
22 hospital, what did he do?
23 A. He did go into the hospital. He would help the wounded. He would
24 come out of the hospital, go home, and then go back. Sometimes he would
25 go home to get something that he could take to the hospital, perhaps a
1 sheet or a cloth.
2 Q. All right. And did he -- did he prevent people from going in
3 because the situation was chaotic? Was that one of the things that he
5 A. Yes. Everybody used to say that, that people should not go in in
6 large groups, that they should go in in smaller groups because there were
7 people waiting even up in the hills above the hospital, 2.000 to 3.000
8 were crowding to get in at any one time. I just can't explain to you the
9 sort of situation that we were in. All of a sudden, you have more than
10 200 wounded and perhaps 50 to 60 dead and the entire population comes
11 along and there is almost an assault at the hospital and it's even worse
12 then than the damage that had been caused by the enemy.
13 Q. Right. Now, you mention guard duty. Who was it that told him to
14 be in the hospital performing these tasks that you just stated?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
16 MR. JONES: The witness didn't mention guard duty.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, initially --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: But that's not a word that I myself -- I'm just
22 repeating what had been said earlier. I can rephrase the question, it's
23 not a problem.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please rephrase it it's easy to rephrase it.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed.
1 Q. When your husband stood outside the hospital to prevent people
2 from coming in and establish some kind of order, who was it, if you know,
3 who told him to do this?
4 A. He did it of his own accord. I hope you understand. It was a
5 humane gesture on the part of the population. We wanted to help those who
6 were hospitalised. And we wanted to prevent large crowds coming in. Let
7 me reiterate this once again. We didn't want 1.000 people to enter the
8 hospital at any one time altogether. Nobody ordered him anything. Nobody
9 was in a position to order anyone anything. I mean, he was not really in
10 a position to prevent 100 people pressing to enter either. He would have
11 been completely unable to do so. They would have walked all over him. I
12 mean he just did what he could. And people who were -- who had their
13 relatives in hospital, especially young people -- children, young girls,
14 you can't stop parents going into check on their children. And there were
15 hundreds of those cases in the hospital.
16 Q. All right. Well, you said that the situation was chaotic and he
17 was there to help. Did he actually succeed in -- succeed in assisting and
18 preventing too many people from going in, et cetera?
19 A. Yes. Sometimes he helped people who had to go into the hospital,
20 who would -- he would tell them, okay, right, you will be able to go in in
21 a little while but he wasn't an actual guard on any duty. He was just a
22 common citizen like they were. My child was in the hospital. My child
23 had been wounded as well. We just wanted to calm things down in order to
24 make it easier for the injured, for the wounded, in order for those two or
25 three doctors to be able to do their job.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear enough.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I'll move on.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to something else.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. I'd like to ask you similarly to what I asked you initially about
8 people in Srebrenica. I'd like to ask you about a series of people and
9 just tell me if you know them or not. First person is Harudin Avdic.
10 Hajrudin Avdic. Did you know him?
11 A. No. It doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps I might have come across him
12 but I don't know.
13 Q. Did you know Resid Efendic?
14 A. Rasid Efendic sounds familiar.
15 Q. What about Hamdija Fezic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was he a long-time Srebrenica resident?
18 A. I don't know. I can tell you the truth now to the extent that
19 you're going to believe me. He married the daughter of a neighbour of
20 mine, and sadly she died. He got married during the war. So I did know
21 Hamdija Fezic.
22 Q. You knew him and saw him during the war?
23 A. Yes. She would come as his wife used to live on the same floor in
24 my building.
25 Q. Do you know if he had any particular duties in Srebrenica during
1 the war, 1992 and 1993?
2 A. How could I know? I think he was a commander or something.
3 That's what people used to say. But I never asked him. We didn't meet
4 very often.
5 Q. All right. And what about Becir Begilovic?
6 A. Bogilovic, you mean? No, I don't know the name.
7 Q. Were you aware that a War Presidency had been established in
8 Srebrenica during 1992 and also in 1993?
9 A. No. Perhaps after demilitarisation. I don't know.
10 Q. You testified that -- just getting back to the topic of the
11 refugees and you said that a couple of them or a number of them had
12 remained in your apartment and correct me if I misstate what you indicated
13 yesterday, and you said that they stayed in your apartment for a short
14 time, approximately five to six days. Do you recall that portion of your
16 A. Yes, I do. There were people from Orlica, they were Roma.
17 Q. And they left your apartment; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. I tried to persuade them to do so. I said it was my
19 apartment and that they should go, and some of them stayed behind. And I
20 always had someone staying with us during the war, because we had too much
21 space considering that other people were sleeping in the streets, sleeping
22 rough in sheds, where there were leeks and everything so there were
23 refugees in my flat as well.
24 Q. The refugees not only in your flat but the refugees who came in
25 they were housed into empty apartments and houses in Srebrenica during the
1 period of 1992? Following the war? I should say after April of 1992.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was anyone -- did anyone that you know of make arrangements
4 for them to be housed in these different apartments?
5 A. Yes. Like me, I said to them to perhaps leave my apartment and go
6 and look for something somewhere else because there were some business
7 premises which stood empty. But there wasn't much in Srebrenica. There
8 were some burnt down houses and they would stay there or just simply sleep
9 rough in the streets. They used to sleep and cook and live in the
10 streets. They would just put a blanket on the asphalt road and then sleep
12 Q. Were there any person in particular that you know of in Srebrenica
13 who would help the refugees find locations, where there was apartments,
14 empty buildings, or any other type of accommodation, that assisted them?
15 A. No. That sort of organisation was simply impossible in
16 Srebrenica. There were no preconditions for that.
17 Q. You also testified that you didn't go to the police.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, at the time that you had this problem with the refugees, did
20 you know where -- I'm assuming you knew where the police station was.
21 A. Yes, I knew where it was because I worked in the vicinity for
22 years and I went past it every day but as to police, I don't know why
23 you're asking me whether I ever went to the police. I don't know. I
24 mean, I don't know of any police being operational during the war.
25 Q. Well my question -- if you will permit me so that it's clear to
1 you, I'm asking whether or not when you had this problem if you went down
2 to the police station where you knew it to be at the time, to complain to
3 anyone that you were having this problem. I think you can answer that
4 with a simple yes or no. That's all I'm asking.
5 A. At what police station and what period of time do you have in
6 mind, before the war?
7 Q. Yes, I'm talking about the period of time when the refugees came
8 to your apartment. You testified yesterday that you did not go to the
9 police to complain about them barging into our apartment. Do you recall
11 A. No, there was no one I could have complained to. Nothing was
12 functioning anymore. There was just a -- common citizens there who had
13 been driven out of their homes. I had nowhere to go and complain. Nobody
14 to complain to. I suppose that's your job to ask questions but I find
15 these questions very insulting.
16 Q. I don't mean to insult you. I'm just seeking to find out what
17 action if any did you take. That's all. And some of these questions of
18 course may seem quite obvious and insulting, but I'm simply seeking to see
19 what it is that you did and what existed at the time?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I have to support Madam Richardson in this,
21 Madam Kolenovic. She's doing her duty here and although some questions
22 might not appear exactly what you would like to hear, unless there is a
23 serious and justifiable reason why I should not -- we should not allow it,
24 we have to allow it and you need to answer it. So it's a harmless,
25 innocent question which by no means we see as offensive.
1 So -- on the other hand, I think she made the position clear
2 enough yesterday and I don't think you should labour it much further.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, which is why I just suggested a
4 yes or no answer -- do you need a few minutes, Ms. Kolenovic? We can have
5 a short break, if you would like.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Kolenovic, would you like a break or shall we
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: A break, you mean?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have 25-minute break now and then we
12 continue until we finish.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was actually going to suggest
14 maybe -- it depends on how much time the witness wants but if Your Honour
15 would like to do it that way, I have no objections.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time -- Madam Kolenovic, look at me,
17 please. How much time do you think you need?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Five or six minutes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll have a short break of five or
20 six minutes and then we continue.
21 --- Break taken at 11.48 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue, Ms. Richardson.
24 Are you okay now, Madam Kolenovic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm okay.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
3 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, do you recall when it was that humanitarian aid
4 first arrived in Srebrenica, either in 1992 or 1993?
5 A. In 1993.
6 Q. Okay. Do you recall if in November of 1992 aid came to
8 A. No.
9 Q. I'd like to -- at this moment, Your Honour, to show a clip to the
10 witness. I believe it's in Sanction. Just a moment, Your Honour, I'm
11 trying to determine what the exhibit number is. Exhibit number 517.
12 Your Honour, if we can have the booth give us some volume on the video.
13 We would appreciate that.
14 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, if you could take a look at this tape that is being
16 [Videotape played]
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. I'd like to ask you, do you recognise anyone in that -- in the
19 video? There are two men. Do you recognise either one of them?
20 A. No. I only recognise one person but that was earlier.
21 Q. All right. Perhaps we can go back and you can tell us who it was
22 that you recognised in the photo -- in the video.
23 A. This young man here.
24 Q. And what is his name? Who is he?
25 A. I think that's Zele from Kazani.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop there. For the record, we are at 04 minutes
2 and 1 second, 01.0. And I take it, Madam Kolenovic, that you are
3 indicating the young man looking at us in the middle.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Yes, thank you. You may proceed.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. We can play the video a
7 little bit more.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. Do you recognise anyone there? Perhaps we can go back a bit. Is
11 that person familiar to you?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which? I think there are more than one person. If
13 you're referring to the one in the foreground you need to be more
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed I will. It's the person
16 that's not foreground of the photograph. We are at 4170. If you don't,
17 we can play it some more and if the image appears again, you can let us
18 know if you recognise who that is so we can continue playing.
19 Do you recognise the person?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who is that?
22 A. Once at the hospital, I saw the person, but not actually all of
23 him. Naser. And I also recognise Hamdija Fezic there.
24 Q. Okay. And where is Hamdija Fezic? Is that the person standing in
25 the back?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: In the back or behind him?
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. In -- behind.
4 A. I don't know. He's there. Maybe he was there before. He's not
5 in the background. He's in the middle of the shot. I said that I knew
6 Hamdija so I would like to show you which one is Hamdija.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can I ask whoever is moving the arrow there to
8 point that arrow to the person who appears immediately behind the person
9 who is in the foreground? That one.
10 Now, you see that white arrow. Is that the person you're
11 describing to us as Hamdija Fezic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it that one?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Looks like Zele but Hamdija Fezic
15 was there a little bit before. He had a beard.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We have to move back a little
17 bit. So --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Hamdija Fezic.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right so we are at 414.1, and the -- in other
20 words, it's the person that the arrow is pointing to? Is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness indicates it's Hamdija Fezic, the
23 bearded gentleman who appears at the top left corner of -- or side of the
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Perhaps we can play some more of the video.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. RICHARDSON:
4 Q. Do you recognise the person who is standing in the background of
5 the picture with -- holding something? It could be a weapon, something
6 slender and black. Do you recognise that person?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, we are at 4 minutes 32 seconds point
9 9. Yes.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MS. RICHARDSON:
12 Q. Just if we can go back just a bit -- in the video, if we could
13 just go forward one. If you take a look at this shot of the video, you
14 see men, they appear to be in a line where -- for the record, we are at
15 4576. If you look at the way they are dressed, it appears as they have
16 green camouflage uniforms on. Did you during 1992 and 1993 see any
17 individuals dressed similarly in Srebrenica?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?
19 MR. JONES: I just object to the characterisation of the record as
20 they, i.e. as in all the people in the line being in camouflage uniform.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: They are not. I suggest that you direct the witness
22 only to those who are according to you wearing camouflage uniform.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Perfectly fair comment.
24 Q. I would direct you to the individuals -- only those who appear to
25 be wearing camouflage uniform. There is someone in the picture, from
1 where I'm standing it appears to be a green brighter colour but it's not
2 the same as the others. So perhaps you can tell us if -- and I'm speaking
3 specifically with respect to the individuals who are what appears to be
4 wearing camouflage uniforms. Did you see those type of uniforms in
5 Srebrenica in 1992 and in 1993?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Perhaps we can play --
8 A. I saw when Nurif and my brother-in-law came from Tuzla, they came
9 and they all had uniforms. That group that came from Tuzla, all of them
10 wore uniforms, including my brother-in-law Bekir Smajlovic. They all wore
12 Q. Could you just refresh our memory as to what month that was in
13 1992, if you recall?
14 A. It wasn't winter.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. That's all I'll play of this portion
18 of the video.
19 Q. Does this scene look familiar to you? This was a video from
20 November 1992. Was this -- the scene that I'm describing what you
21 observed on the video, the UN trucks in the background, men in uniform,
22 Naser Oric and the other individuals you pointed out, do you recall being
24 A. I was there when Morillon was there. There were several thousand
25 of us. I was always there. We were asking for help. I was always moving
1 between the hospital, my apartment building, the post office building.
2 That's where I was most of the time.
3 Q. All right. And General Morillon was there in 1993?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What I'm specifically asking is with respect to the picture, the
6 video you just saw, which was taken in 1992, do you recall being present
7 or even hearing about UN trucks being present in Srebrenica in November of
9 A. When Morillon came, then that's when the UN trucks were there.
10 Q. All right. So you don't remember a time before General Morillon
11 being there that you had seen UN trucks or hearing about food being
12 distributed in Srebrenica, in November of 1992?
13 A. I don't know. There was something that they had gone through
14 Sase. It was snow. Snowing. I don't know whether this was 1992 or 1993
15 but I know, and I assert that we started to receive humanitarian food in
16 1993. That's when I saw the trucks.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. It was one convoy, maybe it was 1992 to 1993. I really am not
19 certain but it came through Sase. I don't know.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?
21 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, just a small point. But it's
22 perhaps a significant one. For P517, I just want to make clear that the
23 Defence doesn't accept that this was these shots were taken in November
24 1992. Yes, it may say that on the video but without a witness to come
25 here and say that he had set the timer on his video, we don't accept that
1 those pictures were necessarily taken then. So it's -- just to let you
2 know that that's in dispute.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. It's important to know.
4 Yes. Ms. Richardson.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Do you recall receiving food in November or December of 1992 that
7 was perhaps from the humanitarian aid? And again this is before
8 General Morillon was actually present.
9 A. No.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. You testified that your husband was a
11 fighter and he belonged to a unit. Now, I'd like to ask you a series of
12 questions about that. First of all, did your husband live with you the
13 entire time of 1992 and 1993?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were there days that he was not present -- when I say days, did
16 he -- was he at the apartment every day or were there days at a time when
17 he was not present?
18 A. He was there every day. Sometimes he wasn't there. Sometimes I
19 wasn't at home for two or three days, when I would go somewhere to get
21 Q. And is it the same with him, that he wouldn't be there for two or
22 three days at a time?
23 A. Two days.
24 Q. And did your husband receive food from the other fighters or
25 any -- any other bodies in Srebrenica?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. He had no one to get the food from. He went to get food for
2 himself. I'm not saying that anyone was a fighter. There was another
3 side to it also. Actually, we were all fighters. Children were fighters.
4 Men too. In such a situation, we were all major fighters, to be able to
5 survive, to stay alive.
6 Q. I'd like you to concentrate on your husband because that's the
7 series of questions that I'd like to ask you about. So if you would just
8 bear with me, I'm just talking about your husband. Now, you assisted him
9 in preparing for actions by making strips of cloth that he, you testified
10 yesterday -- said could be used as bandages; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said that you also gave the same strips of cloth to other
13 individuals, other fighters, as well?
14 A. Well, let's say that they are fighters. Everything that I could
15 do to help the population, I helped. Anything that I had in my house I
16 would give as help. It was all a question of bare survival. My husband
17 would go. I mean, he didn't even know where he was going. There was no
18 destination. He didn't know where he was going. There is no Serb or
19 Muslim village where my husband didn't go in order to find food. We had
20 the misfortune that sometimes wherever we went we couldn't find anything.
21 This was a rare thing for us. Perhaps we would find one meal or
23 Q. All right. Let me just stop you there. Did your husband tell you
24 he didn't know where he was going? Or is that an assumption you're
1 A. Of course, it was normal that he didn't know where he was going.
2 If there was shooting from Sase, it would be a powerful attack. At one
3 time they practically entered the town. It was terrible. We all fled,
4 all of the population went in the direction of Suceska. We almost
5 practically all of us left Srebrenica because it was such a powerful
6 attack, there was artillery, well, I don't know; I don't understand much
7 about weapons. And my husband and all the other men went towards the
8 woods up there. I don't know. I mean, I don't think that they could have
9 held back such a powerful force, but they went any way. They had to go.
10 Nobody ordered him, that he had to go.
11 Q. All right. You -- were you present when he was with other members
12 of his unit, including the person who was either the commander of the unit
13 or who he reported to?
14 A. He told me that he was in a group that was under the command of
15 Mido. I don't know who Mido was. I never saw him in my life. Maybe
16 sometimes I saw him in passing in Srebrenica but please believe me, my
17 husband never told me, "That's the person."
18 Q. All right. Now, when -- the purpose of your husband going on
19 these actions was to get food?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he brought food back with him?
22 A. Well, I said very rarely.
23 Q. So how often would he go on these actions to get food? And I'm
24 talking specifically about 1992 into early 1993.
25 A. In 1992, the entire population of Srebrenica was on the move.
1 There was no Muslim village --
2 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment because I do want to finish your
3 testimony today. So if you could just perhaps assist me by answering only
4 the question that I'm asking, I think we can get through what it is that I
5 need to know.
6 How often did your husband - only your husband - go out on actions
7 for food? Did he go on a monthly basis, beginning in May 1992?
8 A. Every day, he would either be going to the woods to bring back
9 wood, which he would cut up and bring up to the sixth floor or he would go
10 to get water or he would go somewhere to bring back food, to look for
11 food. When it was spring he had to go to the woods to bring back leaves
12 so that the children could eat. He would bring back some grass from the
13 soil that was edible so that we could eat. He just went everywhere.
14 Q. But there were times that he went on actions, not to the woods to
15 bring back leaves. There were times that he actually went out on actions
16 with other fighters.
17 A. Wherever he went in the actions, I was there as well.
18 Q. Did you go with him during the -- did you go together?
19 A. Not together with him but in the same direction. Perhaps taking a
20 different road. Some five to six thousand, maybe up to 10.000 of us would
21 go. I mean nobody could count us. We knew, all of the population, that
22 this was our own source of food, whether we are talking about Muslim
23 villages or Serb villages, I would go and rob and grab food from Muslim
24 villages also to bring back something so that my children could survive.
25 Q. Did your husband -- you said you would follow him. So that means
1 he went first; is that correct?
2 A. I didn't follow him.
3 Q. All right. Did he --
4 A. If we were going to Sase, the whole population would go. Only
5 those who couldn't walk wouldn't go.
6 Q. My question --
7 A. We would be going in one direction.
8 Q. Okay. Your husband didn't go with you; is that correct? You just
9 testified that you didn't go together.
10 A. No. I didn't follow him. I didn't go behind him, but I went in
11 the same direction.
12 Q. Did he go into these actions or these Serb villages first, before
13 you did?
14 A. I don't know. Civilians would enter before the soldiers would,
15 into the villages.
16 Q. Was there ever a time that you entered before the fighters? And
17 which village was that?
18 A. I was trying to get in but since there were many people that were
19 more able than myself, I was never among the first, but we went in en
20 masse. We didn't know who was civilian, who was soldier. Nothing was
22 Q. So as far as you know, when you got to the village, the fighters
23 could have been there already. You don't know.
24 A. I don't know that but we went in en masse. A few thousand of us.
25 How could I tell who was soldier and who wasn't?
1 MR. JONES: Well --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?
3 MR. JONES: Sorry, it's actually the second time that the
4 interpretation that borci [phoen] has come out as "soldier." In the past
5 borci has been "fighter."
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in fact I was wondering, but I didn't see you
7 stand up.
8 MR. JONES: We checked and it's borci twice.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So borci is --
10 MR. JONES: "Fighter," and vojnici is "soldier."
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You agree to that, Ms. Richardson?
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. [Microphone not activated].
13 Pardon me. If I could just speak with my colleagues for a moment.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, let me just say this. I think
18 we've had testimony in the past about people calling individuals with
19 weapons soldiers. Now if we are referring specifically to this witness
20 and what she said, then I have no problems with respect to what
21 translation is being given.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's go ahead. I take it that
23 she used the word which should have been interpreted as fighters and not
24 soldiers. That's it. Let's move. Or let's proceed, anyway.
25 MS. RICHARDSON:
1 Q. I'd like to read from a portion of your testimony yesterday, so if
2 you could listen carefully and I'd ask you to comment on it. Page 56 of
3 the transcript.
4 "Okay." Question: "Okay, now I want to ask you about your family
5 members on that day. First of all your husband. Was he with you on the
6 7th of January or was he elsewhere?"
7 "No. He wasn't with me."
8 "Do you know where he was on the 7th of January?"
9 "He was in Kravica."
10 "Did he tell you anything about what he saw or observed on that
12 "He did."
13 "What did he tell you briefly?"
14 Answer: "He criticised the civilians. In fact, he said why did
15 they have to create so much chaos in Kravica? They entered and I myself
16 would do that whenever I was looking for food, in order to frighten the
17 Serbs and get them to leave their houses, let's say five or six or 10.000
18 of us would enter the village but I can guarantee that in Kravica, well,
19 perhaps 5.000 could have gone to Kravica. The entire population of
20 Srebrenica must have been in Kravica on that day. It is unspeakable. I
21 mean, it's like some kind of film. People were crying, screaming, banging
22 pots. They were driven in a way that was totally frightening."
23 I'd like to bring you back to the portion where you said your
24 husband criticised the civilians. Based on what you said yesterday,
25 clearly there is a difference between the civilians and people who
1 considered themselves fighters such as your husband. You agree with that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And with respect to Kravica, your husband was there
4 before you. He was there on the 7th. And I believe you testified you got
5 there on the 8th.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And with respect to Bjelovac, your husband was in Bjelovac before
8 you got there. Is that also correct?
9 A. Yes. I wasn't in Bjelovac.
10 Q. All right. But your husband was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And with respect to Fakovici, was your husband also in Fakovici?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Where was he?
15 A. At home.
16 Q. Is there any reason that he did not go to Fakovici on the day that
17 thousands of the population went?
18 A. Somebody always had to stay behind to watch the house. Otherwise
19 it would be emptied. Sometimes we would take a risk but on occasion we
20 would leave someone behind, and, for example, when we went to Kravica, I
21 left the children behind. But they went out nonetheless. There was no
22 way to control anyone in Srebrenica. I couldn't protect my own house, my
23 own doorstep.
24 Q. So you went out looking for food while your husband stayed behind
25 to watch the house?
1 A. Yes. He remained behind.
2 Q. And he was a fighter?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want her to answer this question or is it
4 just a remark.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll withdraw the question as a matter of fact.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was a fighter and he stayed
7 at home.
8 MS. RICHARDSON:
9 Q. Did he believe you more capable of gathering food than he was? Is
10 that why you went out and he did not?
11 A. He couldn't prevent me from going.
12 Q. Well, did he -- if you didn't go that day, and he didn't go that
13 day, how were you expected to eat, if you had no food?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to -- don't answer that
15 question. That's why she went.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll withdraw the question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wherever my husband wanted to go, he
18 went of his own accord. He could stay at home whenever he wanted to. He
19 could leave when he felt the need to.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour, thank you.
21 Q. Sticking with that portion of your testimony that I read to you
22 yesterday, where you described that you yourself -- well, withdraw that.
23 Let me just ask you about the preparation for the civilians going out.
24 Now, you testified that thousands of civilians would go out to the Serb
25 villages seeking food?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And they would do this and go to the areas that the fighters were
3 in. Would that be a correct assessment?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And they would go out -- how did you know -- I'll rephrase. How
6 did you yourself and the thousands of other civilians know which Serb
7 village to go to on that particular day?
8 A. There were people from nine municipalities, and we knew where the
9 Serb villages were around Srebrenica, and that was the only source of food
10 and the only way for us to survive. As soon as we -- we would get
11 humanitarian aid we would stay and get -- go no where.
12 Q. But the question is: How did you yourself know -- you -- how did
13 you know what village, what Serb village to go to? For instance, by way
14 of example, you went to Sase. How did you know to go to Sase?
15 A. It would be widely known in a couple of days or it would be known
16 15 days or a month before and we would know that the Serbs were in Sase,
17 they were attacking from there and there is food there. So we have to
18 go. And I would -- I was the first to excerpt some pressure on my
19 husband, telling him go to that Serb village, bring something back. If
20 you are not going, I am. I have to feed my children.
21 Q. And who decided what day you would actually go? The thousands of
22 people in search of food. Who decided the exact day?
23 A. The entire town, the entire population exerted pressure and we,
24 the women, organised ourselves to go and we discussed this amongst
25 ourselves. Even children discussed that. There is this village of
1 Kravica, there is a lot of food there. It would suffice for someone to
2 say --
3 Q. Yes. I hate to interrupt you and I appreciate the information but
4 I'm seeking to get what is basically a very simple question, which is who
5 decided what day? Now, you said the women would gather together to
6 prepare, but who decided the day that you would go? I see Mr. Jones is --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
8 MR. JONES: I object to the question because Ms. Richardson is
9 saying it's a very simple question, but it carries with it all sorts of
10 assumptions that there is one person who decided when everyone would go,
11 that all of the down to the man, woman, and child, the thousands of them,
12 would all follow that decision, and that this witness knows about that.
13 Perhaps it's a question of foundation but it's just a total shot in the
14 dark who told thousands of people to go somewhere on the certain day. And
15 it's no wonder if the witness doesn't understand.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with you, Mr. Jones.
17 Ms. Richardson, Could you rephrase the question?
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I can do that, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if you direct it -- it's -- it can be
20 approached in very simple terms because I don't -- I don't -- I'm not
21 surprised that she has not answered your question because it wasn't, I
22 think, as clear or --
23 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
24 Q. Ms. Kolenovic, I'll rephrase the question. You went to Kravica, I
25 believe you said on the 8th. And you testified that the -- your husband
1 was there on the 7th. I am simply seeking an answer from you about whom
2 it was that decided, as far as you know, that the 7th of January would be
3 the day that everyone would go to Kravica.
4 A. The entire population. It was the only and the last source of
5 food for us to survive.
6 Q. Now, you also said that there were preparations made. Could you
7 tell us a little bit more about that? What kind of preparations did the
8 women and some of the children make in preparation for actions such as
9 Kravica or Bjelovac?
10 A. To reiterate, Kravica was the only source of food that we could
11 use to survive. The entire population discussed this, not for days but
12 for months, that Kravica is the only source that would enable us to
13 survive. Had there been any food thrown from the air planes we wouldn't
14 have gone to Kravica. Had we received anything before Kravica or 1992 had
15 we received anything from the planes we would have stayed in Srebrenica.
16 Q. When you say the entire population discussed this, was there a
17 town meeting, a vote taken, about attacking Kravica -- or execution me,
18 conducting an action in Kravica on the 7th of January?
19 A. People simply discussed this, that we would go to Kravica to get
20 food. No one discussed an attack. No one went there with an intent to
21 attack Kravica and the people there. It was simply a source of food for
23 Q. Well, when you say no one went to Kravica with the intent of
24 attacking, did you go to Kravica, and by you I mean the entire population,
25 did you go to Kravica to ask the Serbs who were residing in Srebrenica for
1 food? Is that what your testimony is? In a non-violent way?
2 A. Who would give me that? If I were caught by a Serb they would
3 slit my throat or they would kill me the way they were doing at the
4 beginning. My best neighbours, the people I loved, were doing that.
5 Q. But my question is: And I'll ask you again. It was not the
6 intention of the thousands of Muslims to go into Kravica, knock on the
7 doors of the Serbs, and ask them to give you food. That was not the
8 intention, was it?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: She has already told you, Ms. Richardson, that it
10 wasn't. And it couldn't be, actually.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine.
12 Q. Now, I'd like to quote from yesterday's testimony, page 73.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour.
14 Q. I'd like to get back to the preparations that you undertook prior
15 to going in search of food to the Serb villages, including Kravica and
16 Sase or perhaps Bjelovac. Did you carry bags with you? Yourself and the
17 thousands of others.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And at the time that you decided to leave, would you gather
20 together with people from your building and others in the town to leave at
21 a particular time?
22 A. I would join with a larger group of people. If it was at night or
23 in the morning, whenever I went there, there were already thousands of
24 people there before me. When -- wherever I went --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction, "whenever I went
1 there was always someone there ahead of me."
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. So you knew either people had gone before you so there were people
4 going before you and then you yourself went at various times but there
5 were always thousands of people at the time that you were present, ready
6 to leave to go in search of food?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And these were primarily women and children?
9 A. Yes. Women, children, men, the entire population was on the move.
10 The only people that didn't were those who couldn't walk and, of course,
11 very small children, babies.
12 Q. All right. So that we are clear, though, your husband didn't set
13 out with you at any particular point of these actions, together?
14 A. Yes, we went several times to Voljavica. We went there together,
15 during the night, to take the food from the fields up to the Drina.
16 Q. And were you -- did your -- did you encounter any -- I'll rephrase
17 the question.
18 When you went to Voljavica with your husband, were there other
19 people present?
20 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean present?
21 Q. In other words, were there thousands of people with you when you
22 went to Voljavica, when you were with your husband?
23 A. Those were people of about 1, 2 or 300, and we would go into the
24 fields, but it was always done during the night. We couldn't do that
25 during the day because the Serbs could see it all.
1 Q. Now, when you went to Fakovici, do you recall when that was?
2 A. I believe it was the end of the fall or beginning of the winter,
3 maybe in October.
4 Q. All right. And when you went, do you remember what time of day
5 you set out to go to Fakovici?
6 A. It was at night. I don't know the date. It's not close by. It
7 was several kilometres away. It would take one, seven, eight hours to
8 reach there and then you would have to hide because there were shells
9 falling from all sides and one would get tired as well. You had to rest.
10 And on occasion I would be absent for three days without coming back home,
11 and then sometimes we would go astray. There was shooting. We couldn't
12 go back immediately and we would have to stay in the forest.
13 Q. And thousands of people would stay in the forest, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And there came a point in time that the people left the forest and
16 they would go into either the town of Fakovici itself or surrounding
18 A. We moved everywhere. To Fakovici and the surrounding villages,
19 and in the forests, the fields.
20 Q. All right. But there came a point after you gathered together in
21 the forest that you actually went into the town. Would that be correct?
22 A. What town?
23 Q. All right. I'll rephrase it. We are talking --
24 A. I didn't see any other town apart from Srebrenica.
25 Q. All right. Well, let me rephrase my question. I may be confusing
1 you actually. We are talking about Fakovici at the moment and you said
2 that you -- that you went with thousands of people with the intent to go
3 to Fakovici, which is a Serb village, correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I wasn't in Fakovici. I tried to get there but I was never in
7 Fakovici. And I saw thousands of people moving, some wounded, some were
8 departing, some coming back.
9 Q. I believe you testified about that yesterday so --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But she also said that she never entered Fakovici.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed, thank you.
12 Q. But in your attempt to get to Fakovici --
13 A. No.
14 Q. But you attempted to get to Fakovici.
15 Now --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- let's talk about your going to Bjelovac. Was -- do you recall
18 that time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in fact you didn't go to Bjelovac but you actually went to
21 Sase; is that correct?
22 A. It is correct. I started towards Bjelovac but I didn't go further
23 than Sase. I went -- the intent to reach Bjelovac but I went as far as
24 Sase, and not further.
25 Q. And your husband already in -- he went to Bjelovac, correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did he leave the house before you did?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What time did you leave?
5 A. Right after him.
6 Q. What time did he leave?
7 A. How can I know? I didn't look at my watch.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. It was dark. Whether it was dusk or night, I don't know. It was
11 Q. Okay. Now, you -- had you been to Bjelovac before?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And so -- and this is with respect to Fakovici, had you been to
14 Fakovici before? Did you know the path to go to, to get to Fakovici?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you went along with thousands of others who knew the way to
17 both Bjelovac and Fakovici, would that be correct?
18 A. Yes. I don't know whether they knew. I went together with a lot
19 of other people, wherever they went I went along.
20 Q. And that's with people like yourself, some of them you knew, would
21 that be a correct assessment?
22 A. Of course some knew.
23 Q. Now, when the civilians went to Bjelovac, and this is with respect
24 only to Bjelovac, do you recall whether some of them were wearing sheets
25 over their clothing?
1 A. Yes. My husband also carried a sheet.
2 Q. And --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, wore a sheet.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was tied in a knot here. It was
6 winter. They had to survive, and even I had a sheet. It was so cold.
7 And during day light, one could see other people -- other people easier,
8 but it was different, and easier in the night.
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. All right. So you wore the sheet to prevent people from seeing
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, with respect to Kravica, was the preparation conducted in a
14 similar manner, that you collected your bags and you and thousands of
15 others set out to go to Kravica?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And your husband left the day before, would that be correct?
18 A. Yes. I went on the 7th as well but I wasn't in Kravica on the
19 7th, and I left the children behind.
20 Q. So you set out on the 7th with the intent to get to Kravica on the
21 7th? Was that the plan?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And, however, you ended up spending the night so you actually
24 entered Kravica on the 8th, the next day?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, when you entered Kravica, you testified that there were men,
2 perhaps fighters, there, with weapons preventing you and others from going
3 into Kravica. Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know why it was they were trying to prevent you from going
6 into Kravica to get food?
7 A. Yes. At that time, we were all like vultures, hungry vultures.
8 Q. I understand that but why did they prevent you from going to get
9 food? What was their purpose? They didn't want you to eat?
10 A. No, no. They wanted us to eat, but they were afraid that we would
11 get, all of us, killed there. There was a lot of shooting.
12 Q. So they weren't preventing you from going in for food but for your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And as -- you testified as well that when you went into -- when
16 you yourself -- you testified, entered the village -- I'll rephrase the
18 You talked about -- you testified about the fact that your husband
19 had criticised the civilians and he -- we were -- I think the time you
20 were testifying, you were referring to the Kravica action. Do you recall
22 A. No, no. I didn't say that my husband criticised the civilians.
23 He criticised me.
24 Q. All right. Because yesterday, in the transcript, you -- you were
25 asked about --
1 A. I didn't see my husband there in Kravica, but only when we came
2 back home, and he criticised me.
3 Q. All right. Okay. Because what you testified yesterday, unless
4 there is a problem with the transcript, that he criticised the civilians
5 and said "they have created so much chaos in Kravica." Do you recall
7 A. Not my husband, not just my husband. Everybody criticised the
8 civilians. My husband criticised me, and perhaps all of those who were in
9 our building, that there was a lot of chaos created once we entered
11 Q. Now, part of the -- pardon me, would you like to continue?
12 A. Yes, yes. And I also said that some armed people who had several
13 rifles stopped us and tried to apply force against us civilians, trying to
14 stop us from going to Kravica. That's what I saw, and that's true.
15 Q. Now, you testified that civilians would scream and bang pots as
16 they would enter the Serb villages. Do you recall saying that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this was done so that you
19 can frighten the Serbs and get them to leave their houses?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And this was done after the fighters had already entered the Serb
22 villages, ahead of you?
23 MR. JONES: I don't recall the witness saying that could we have a
24 reference to the transcript.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Not --
1 MR. JONES: Could we have reference to the transcript.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's a question.
3 MR. JONES: It does sound, it does sound very much as if this is
4 evidence --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: She never said that. But if you want to ask the
7 question, of course you're free to ask.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour it was question, and I --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And then --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers not overlap, please. Thank
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether it's banging on pots and pans occurred
13 before the fighters entered the village or after or during, I mean what --
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I can take it in step by step.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But she never said -- gave an indication.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, and Ms. Kolenovic, so that you don't
17 misunderstand me, I never said that you said that it was a question.
18 Q. So perhaps we could take it one step at a time. When civilians
19 entered the villages, they would scream and bang pots. Would that be
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the civilians would usually enter the villages after the
23 fighters were already engaged in fighting. Would that be correct?
24 A. Yes. The civilians would go in when the fighters were there, too.
25 They would go in together. I think I said that.
1 Q. Well, when you say go in together, let's make sure that that's
2 clear. When you yourself went in, let's say for instance Kravica, your
3 husband was not present on the 8th, when you went in, with you, side by
5 A. No.
6 Q. And the same is true for Bjelovac, correct? Sase. When you went
7 into Sase, your husband wasn't with you side by side, correct?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: She never made it to Bjelovac.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I corrected it and said Sase, yes.
10 Your Honour, I would just like to -- pardon me, Your Honour.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, evidently the witness's answer is
13 not on the transcript, to my last question. I believe I asked is it true
14 for Bjelovac --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the question again. No problems.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: I can.
17 Q. My question to you was whether or not your husband was with you
18 side by side when you entered Sase.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I assume we are going straight to
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to finish.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I am; that's why I asked.
2 Q. You testified as well about taking sheets to make clothing for
3 people such as the refugees who didn't have any.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, before you continue, do you plan to
7 have a re-examination, Mr. Jones?
8 MR. JONES: Yes, I do. I was going to ask Ms. Richardson to leave
9 me enough time for my re-examination, about 15 minutes currently.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So there is -- yes, Ms. Richardson. Do you think
11 you can conclude in about ten minutes?
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes. Yes, I'll try my best.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay.
14 Q. As you can see we are all trying to work out the time so I can
15 complete your cross-examination today so I would appreciate it if the
16 answers are brief.
17 Not to go back over what you testified to before, but you said you
18 helped your husband prepare strips of material to be used as bandages in
19 the event that he was injured?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'd just like to show you a tape, if you will, and ask you a
22 series of questions about that.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: So at this time, Your Honour, the clip is
24 presently on Sanction. Prosecution's Exhibit 329.
25 MR. JONES: May I just say one thing, Your Honour? My objections
1 to the interview are on record. I'm sorry, I did have the reference for
2 the date. We say that this is not -- this 12th of May, this year, we say
3 that until a witness comes along and says, "Yes, this is an interview of
4 Naser Oric properly conducted on this day," then it's nothing more than a
5 purported interview and I just -- I won't object from now on. I wanted it
6 to be on the record henceforth.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we do appreciate that, especially in
9 the presence of the witness. Perhaps we can show this video now and if
10 you could just look at the video and to what's being said on the video I'd
11 like to ask you a couple of questions.
12 [Videotape played]
13 "As we didn't have any logistics in terms of uniforms in the way
14 that we would get our uniforms we would actually kill the Chetnik and take
15 the uniform off and wear that. Most of us had Chetnik uniforms. So
16 always there would then be very close fighting, which we always preferred
17 to have close hand-to-hand fighting because we didn't have the ammunition
18 to carry out a fire fight from a long distance away. So I went off -- so
19 what we would do would be we would attach ribbons, so -- either around the
20 head or else on the shoulder or on the -- around the arms, ribbon --
21 various coloured ribbons so that we would be able to recognise each other.
22 We always tried to find an easily recognisable but unusual colour which
23 people wouldn't be able to simply sort of look around and find something
24 of that colour and tie it on themselves. So that they -- they, for
25 example, would find some materials of the same colour, put this on and
1 then -- then attack us, surprise us and then attack us in that way."
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. Okay. Having heard that bit of information about the use of
4 ribbons, my question is: What you prepared for your husband in terms of
5 strips of material, is it plausible that these were used as headbands or
6 bands for the arms as was stated in the video, as identified -- as
7 identification, for identification purposes?
8 A. Perhaps. How could I know? My husband told me that he needed
9 those bands.
10 Q. All right. Thank you.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just a moment.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Just one final question, Your Honour. I can
15 Q. You stated that because of the lack of clothing that some people
16 were able to use -- were able to sew white trousers made from the
17 traditional Muslim dress. Do you recall that?
18 A. Not white trousers from the pantaloons, but they used white sheets
19 to make the trousers. But they also used pantaloons to make trousers.
20 Pantaloons were of a patterned fabric. I didn't see any women there
21 wearing white pantaloons, the pantaloons were always patterned.
22 Q. Now, these trousers -- the sheets, were they made to look as
23 though they were uniforms such as a full uniform, where there is a top, a
24 jacket, and white pants as well, matching, to appear as though they were
1 A. Yes. I said yesterday that they used duvets to make them which
2 were multi-coloured on one side and plain on the others, duvets.
3 Q. Do you recall if they were made to appear as uniforms? Do you
4 recall what they looked like?
5 A. I also had a very nice duvet, and I made one for myself, just so
6 that I could have a kind of track suit.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions
8 and I thank you, Madam Kolenovic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you Ms. Richardson. Mr. Jones
11 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:
12 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
13 Q. Ms. Kolenovic I just have a few questions for you. First of all
14 you identified today on the video you were shown, someone as Zele. Do you
15 remember his full name?
16 A. Yes. I knew it. Zele -- I can't really say all that much,
17 because when I was at my apartment, that was when they used a metal file
18 to cut Zele's arm. He was a friend of mine from school.
19 Q. Sorry, I don't want to -- you to be upset about it. Do you happen
20 to know his name, his first and second name? That's all we need for the
21 record. And then we'll move on.
22 A. I cannot remember his first and last name. All I know is that we
23 used to call him Zele.
24 Q. Do you remember what he did before the war, in terms of job or
1 A. I don't know. I think that he was involved in music, and he lived
2 in Kazani.
3 Q. Do you know what instrument he played?
4 A. I think he played the guitar.
5 Q. And so -- I'm going to move very quickly, but do you remember when
6 his arm was amputated?
7 A. In 1992.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Now, I'm moving on to a different area so we can leave Zele. You
10 told us today your husband one point you said he was in a unit another
11 point you said it wasn't really a unit. You also told us, and it's page
12 65, line 18, that nobody ordered him to go, nobody ordered your husband to
13 go to one place or another. Firstly; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you referred to a Mido as his commander. Do I take it from
16 that, when you said nobody ordered your husband, that Mido didn't order
17 your husband either? Would that be correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So the person you describe as his commander, your
20 husband's commander, didn't in fact order him to do anything? Would that
21 be correct?
22 A. No. It's correct.
23 Q. Yes. Again, the "no" was to the first part of the question, and
24 the "it's correct" was to the second part, for the record.
25 Now, you've been asked about the distinction between fighters and
1 civilians. You also said, and it's page 64, lines 11 to 12, "Actually we
2 were all fighters, children were fighters." Now, do you stand by that,
3 that all of you, women and children in one sense were fighters?
4 A. Not in a certain sense. We really were all fighters. It was one
5 enclave. I really cannot tell that to anyone else. Only those who were
6 there know how it was. We were all fighters.
7 Q. All right. So I take it from that that if you saw someone and you
8 didn't know who they were, simply by looking at them you wouldn't say,
9 "Oh, that's a fighter or that's not a fighter, he's in so and so's unit
10 or he's in another unit." You simply wouldn't know based on someone's
11 appearance what their status was? Would that be correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I thank you. Now, you were also asked a lot today about whether
14 civilians went into actions at the same time as fighters or afterwards.
15 Page 67, lines 22, 23, I quote, you said, "Civilians would enter before
16 the soldiers into the villages."
17 Now, is that -- is that correct? Is that testimony correct? To
18 your knowledge, civilians would -- would enter before soldiers or fighters
19 or whichever term you used?
20 A. Yes. I didn't have the opportunity to tell you that in more
22 Q. All right. Well that's fine. I think that's sufficient detail
23 for our purposes. Finally, you were asked today about these ribbons which
24 you prepared for your husband. I want to ask firstly, in 1992, 1993, was
25 your relationship with your husband one in which he was generally truthful
1 with you or was he evasive? Was he -- what sort of relationship did you
2 have with your husband?
3 A. He couldn't lie to me or to hide anything from me, or to lie to me
4 and say something was not like that when I knew the whole situation, and I
5 was in such a situation that you couldn't make anything up or conceal
6 anything or do anything without us knowing about it.
7 Q. All right. Now, when you made these ribbons for your husband,
8 what did you understand they were to be used for?
9 A. How should I know? He said that he needed to have that in his
10 pocket in case he was wounded, to have it with him, because we have that
11 in our experience. I mentioned Zele. Many people had their limbs cut off
12 in order to staunch the blood. I mean he said that he needed these bands.
13 I even carried some in my pocket.
14 Q. All right. And so when he said that to you, did you believe him?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Yes. Thank you.
17 MR. JONES: No further questions.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.
19 Judge Brydensholt?
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: At the time that your husband assisted at the
22 hospital, when he went there and sometimes I understand he was placed
23 before the entrance to prevent a lot of people to go into the hospital, I
24 understand that. Do you remember, on those occasions, did he bring the
25 rifle he had got?
1 A. No.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. A simple question, Madam. Are your
3 children both alive? Your two sons?
4 A. Thank God, yes, they are.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. That basically brings your
11 testimony to an end now. Which means that we'll get the machinery in
12 motion to facilitate your return back home to Sarajevo as quickly as
13 possible. The airport is still closed over there, I take it. I don't
14 know. But I'm sure that all the assistance will be forthcoming to
15 facilitate your return back home as early as possible. On behalf of the
16 Tribunal, and particularly on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, and also on
17 behalf of Judge Eser who couldn't be with us today, and on my own behalf,
18 I should like to thank you, Ms. Kolenovic, for having been kind enough to
19 come forward and give evidence on these two days.
20 I know it hasn't been easy, but unfortunately these things happen.
21 As I said, you will be escorted now by our usher, and I'm sure that you
22 will receive all assistance you require. On behalf of everyone present
23 here, may I also wish you a safe journey back home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will be sitting now on Monday. Is it morning?
2 Morning sitting. And do you know the courtroom?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom III.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Courtroom III so we will continue Monday morning at
5 9.00 in Courtroom III.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one very brief matter, probably more a matter
7 for the Defence. Your Honour mentioned -- asked the witness where she
8 resided and she gave an address. I don't know if that causes her any
9 consequences or if it's something we should consider redacting. I don't
10 know, and I simply raise it -- it suddenly occurred to me as I saw it and
11 I just mention it. I'm making no application.
12 MR. JONES: That's very kind of Mr. Di Fazio to mention it. I
13 suppose out of an abundance of caution, if it's possible to redact her
14 address, we should do it. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's redact her address before we leave please and
16 the place where she mentions where she is living, including the street.
17 MR. JONES: Page 92, line 4.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You've spoken also with our legal officer with
19 regard to the sitting of the 19th September, I take it.
20 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, we will approach that matter as we go
22 along, simply everything depends on whether that will be possible or not.
23 Because obviously if one witness lasts longer or we don't finish as
24 planned, then we will revert back, all right? Thanks.
25 So let me sign it, please. The important thing is that it is
1 redacted. In other words, we have the advantage of the 30-minute delay.
2 There is a problem with the printing, apparently, so I can't sign it now.
3 As long as I'm assured by the technicians that you don't need my signature
4 now in order to be able to obliterate it from the transmission -- I can't
5 see behind the glossy black windows.
6 THE REGISTRAR: It's okay.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It is okay. All right.
8 Are you happy with that, Mr. Jones?
9 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Di Fazio?
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 So we will continue on Monday, subject of course to Judge Eser
14 being here. I spoke to him again this morning, apart from yesterday, and
15 there hasn't been any further phone calls so I would assume that
16 everything is as it was until yesterday evening. Right? Which would mean
17 that he will be here with us on Monday. Thanks.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m., to
19 be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of September
20 2005, at 9.00 a.m.