Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10225

1 Monday, 5 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your mother tongue?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes. I

12 can follow the proceedings in my own mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may sit down. Good morning

14 to you.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honour. I'm Patricia Sellers for

17 the Office of the Prosecutor. With me are co-counsels,

18 Mr. Gramsci di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson and our case manager,

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. Good morning to the Defence and special

20 welcome back to Judge Eser.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and what about Mr. Wubben? When are we

22 to expect him back?

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, Mr. Wubben is physically back on the

24 premises Office of the Prosecutor but still, related to his illness, he

25 will not be able to be in court today.

Page 10226

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please extend to him our best regards and tell him

2 that we look forward to seeing him back in the courtroom as soon as

3 possible.

4 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 Appearances for Naser Oric.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

8 morning to the colleagues from the Prosecution. I'm Vasvija Vidovic and,

9 together with Mr. John Jones, I represent Mr. Oric. We are joined by our

10 legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

12 and your team.

13 Now, do you have any preliminaries?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one point. We

15 received the timetable for the hearings in the upcoming period and allow

16 me to say here that we are extremely interested in speeding things up and

17 managing to finalise things as soon as possible and we've carefully looked

18 into the possibility of still having hearings in the first week of

19 October, even in the absence of one of the Judges. Already last week we

20 found ourselves in a situation which the Trial Chamber listened to the

21 testimonies from two witnesses in this sort of situation. So we wanted to

22 have two quite important witnesses in that period of time, and let me

23 voice our view here. We don't think it would be in the interests of

24 justice this time to listen to those particular witnesses if not all

25 Judges are present. Perhaps it would after all not be better to have a

Page 10227

1 hearing on those days because we would once again then have witnesses here

2 and not all the judges would be present.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic, we'll take into consideration

4 your position on this and we need to discuss -- we'll see whether there

5 can be any -- what the possibilities are because I can't tell you here as

6 from now what the position will necessarily be, but those days were needed

7 for serious matters, not -- anyway, we'll see to that.

8 Judge Eser, as you see, is back with us and we expect to have him

9 here throughout the rest of the week saving complications, in which case

10 he has got my authority to leave without even informing me. So that is

11 the position. And then we decide whether to continue with two or whether

12 to continue -- or not to continue at all. But that's the position.

13 Please understand that at the moment we are facing some problems that need

14 to be attended to, and -- they have to be attended to, in other words.

15 And stopping the sittings, according to me, should be the last

16 option. We'll try to explore other possibilities before we come to that.

17 That's number one.

18 Number two, I have informed by Mr. Pitman that he is -- he was

19 trying or he is still trying with the Registry to move next week's

20 afternoon sittings to the morning. That is fine with us and I hope it is

21 fine also with the parties, with the exception of Monday. Monday, because

22 one of the judges would be travelling back to The Hague and I want to make

23 sure that he will be here by the time we start the sitting, we prefer to

24 sit in the afternoon. All right? Thanks.

25 So that sorts out this area.

Page 10228

1 The other thing is this: That we have received a copy of the

2 Defence response to the confidential motion pursuant -- filed pursuant to

3 Rule 70. To be honest with you after first reading of it, I think it does

4 require some time on your part. It's a little bit more complicated than I

5 thought.

6 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, might I just ask for -- in

7 terms of clarification of the record, was that the Defence response or was

8 it the Prosecution response.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Prosecution response.

10 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think you would require sometime to consult

12 with the government in question as to what the situation is likely going

13 to be like. So we are not going to impose any time limit for you to

14 reply. Feeling certain that as soon as you have a confirmation from that

15 particular government, you will come back to us et cetera, but please do

16 update us on a regular basis, at least once a week, until you get a

17 response from the government.

18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. May I take it from that that

19 you give us leave to file a reply.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's obvious. I mean the kind of response -- I

21 mean, we would need to know what the position is on your part following

22 the Prosecution response before we can hand down a decision. I mean --

23 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you. It's just so we don't formally seek

24 leave for filing a reply.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't need -- take it for granted. The

Page 10229

1 other thing is with regard to Rule 92 bis, first witness, in other words

2 Avdo Huseinovic, when are we expected to have the response.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that will be filed today.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's great. With regard to the other two

5 witnesses that -- you had given an indication you would seek to tender

6 their evidence under Rule 92 bis, that is Han Ulens and Rene Caravielhe, I

7 would suggest that we don't waste more time, that you file the relative

8 motion at your earliest so that we handle it. At least I get an

9 indication from the Prosecution -- we'll get an indication from the

10 Prosecution whether they are going to oppose or not, and we will know

11 where we stand. Of course, time will catch up with us very quickly before

12 you even know it. So I would suggest that you file the relative motions

13 as soon as possible.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. In fact, one reason for delay is there is a

15 certain -- potential problems arising with your organisation in question

16 which I won't mention in open court. But that's one of the reasons why

17 there has been some delay.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But what I mean, Mr. Jones, is that I don't know

19 exactly who but I would imagine I can attribute it to -- Mr. Wubben, way

20 back in August, had given an indication that there would probably not be

21 an opposition from the Prosecution as regards these two witnesses so at

22 least it would help the situation to crystallise. You would know exactly

23 whether there is going to be an opposition. The same applies to us. And

24 then you can make your own arrangements how to do it and --

25 MR. JONES: It's just that we are waiting a certain authorisation,

Page 10230

1 as it were, before filing from the organisation in question. But we can

2 still file it conditionally, as it were, and then if in the end

3 negotiations don't work out, then we would withdraw one or two of those

4 witnesses.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I don't have any -- okay. I

6 don't have any further matters to raise so I think we can bring the

7 witness in. He doesn't enjoy any protective measures?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And I ask you how long -- who is going to take this

10 witness? Madam Vidovic?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I myself, Your Honour. And I will

12 need at least four to four and a half hours. We had provided for three

13 days for these two witnesses, and then for the cross-examination to take

14 about three and a half hours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness -- will you have him available to

18 start testimony on Thursday? You will.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That one is still envisaged to take longer than this

21 one.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And you're prepared to make sure that he is kept

24 here over the weekend because it's not likely then that we will finish

25 with his testimony by Friday.

Page 10231

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's what the

2 witness expects.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Why I'm saying that is so that you make it

4 clear to him.

5 Yes. Mr. Tiro, good morning to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm speaking in English and you should be receiving

8 interpretation in a language that you understand. Before I proceed any

9 further, I want to make sure that this is so. In other words, that you

10 are receiving interpretation loud and clear.

11 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the witness.

13 Apparently he said yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I heard him say yes. If at any time you're

15 not receiving interpretation in a language that you understand, or if

16 there is any problem with the sound level, please draw our attention

17 straight away and we will rectify it, rectify the matter.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So welcome once more. We are about to start with

20 your evidence. You have been summoned here as a Defence witness in this

21 trial, which the Prosecution has instituted against Naser Oric. Our rules

22 require that before you start giving evidence, you make a solemn

23 declaration, which is something identical to an oath in many

24 jurisdictions. The substance or the essence of this solemn declaration is

25 that in the course of your testimony, you will be testifying, you will be

Page 10232

1 speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text

2 of the solemn declaration is contained in a piece of paper that Madam

3 Usher standing at your left will now be giving you. Please read it out

4 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Please make yourself comfortable.

10 And let me explain to you the few remaining things. Madam Vidovic will

11 soon start with her examination-in-chief. That means a series of

12 questions that will not finish today. We will continue with her

13 examination-in-chief tomorrow. After that, Ms. Sellers will be taking you

14 up for cross-examination, and that will take your evidence into Wednesday

15 probably. So try to keep your questions as concise but as precise as

16 possible because that will ensure that you are out of here by the end of

17 our sitting on Wednesday. Otherwise, you will stay here until we finish

18 with you.

19 When I say try to keep your answers as concise and precise as

20 possible, my message to you is to try and answer all questions that are

21 put to you, irrespective of who is putting them to you, in a truthful

22 manner but please try to answer the question, the whole question, and

23 nothing but the question. If you try to give us more information than you

24 are being asked to give, that means you are going to stay here for longer,

25 for a longer period of time. I hope I have made myself understood.

Page 10233












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Page 10234

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And that you will cooperate to the best of your

3 ability so that you are out of this courtroom by not later than Wednesday.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The last thing I want to tell you is that between

6 the sittings, and even between breaks but between sittings, that is

7 between today and tomorrow and between tomorrow and the day after, you are

8 not allowed to communicate with anyone on the matters related to your

9 evidence here.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You can of course contact your family, you can

12 contact friends, you can contact anyone that you like, but not in relation

13 to the matters that you are giving evidence upon or in relation to this

14 trial.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: My name is Carmel Agius, and I am the Presiding

17 Judge. I come from the Mediterranean island of Malta. To my right I have

18 Judge Brydensholt from the Kingdom of Denmark, and to my left I have

19 Judge Professor Albin Eser from Germany.

20 Examined by Ms. Vidovic

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tiro.

22 A. Good morning, Madam.

23 Q. Since we both speak the same language, I would like to appeal to

24 you to take account of the fact that the interpreters need to finish their

25 sentences after I've asked you a question because some other people in

Page 10235

1 this courtroom don't understand our language. Do you understand that?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, can you tell the Trial Chamber your full name and

4 surname?

5 A. Hamed Tiro.

6 Q. You were born on the 15th of May 1961 in Zapolje?

7 A. In Zapolje.

8 Q. Is it a hamlet, Gornja Orlica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And your father's name is Alija?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your mother's name is Rasida?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Her maiden name is Memic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You have two brothers, they are called Mehmed and Hamdija?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you have three sisters?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Nedziba, Zlatka, and Habiba?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You finished primary school in Bjelovac in 1976?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In 1978, you finished a builder's trade in Belgrade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10236

1 Q. You did your military service in 1980 in Pljevlja?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you just allow for me to finish my question before

4 you answer and also, on top of that, we would need a short break between

5 my question and your answer.

6 A. Clear.

7 Q. So you did your military service in 1980 in Pljevlje in Montenegro

8 and you were in mountain infantry?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then you got a job as a builder in Majdanpek in Serbia in 1983?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Between 1983 -- sorry, between 1988 until the war, you had your

13 own private enterprise, as a builder, and you worked at various

14 construction sites?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And prior to the war, you worked together with both Serbs and

17 Muslims, isn't that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would now like to ask the usher to show the witness a map of the

20 area of Srebrenica. It's the same map we've used before but we would like

21 for this witness to take a look at the map and mark a certain number of

22 places that I'm going to ask him about, because we'll ask for this map to

23 be attributed an exhibit number as an exhibit for the Defence.

24 Mr. Tiro, could you please take a look at the map. It is placed

25 on the device that is on your right. Can you take a look at it?

Page 10237

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 727? So this map will become D727, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, you said you were born in Zapolje, actually in a hamlet

4 called Gornja Orlica. I would like to ask you to show the Trial Chamber

5 where this hamlet is, where actually Zapolje and Orlica?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Usher, for the time being he's going to

7 show us. If he's going to mark it give him a red marker, please, because

8 I take it -- I imagine from what I have read so far in the summary that he

9 will be showing us where various positions, military --

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I keep the colours separate.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So can you encircle, please put a circle

14 around this spot where you were born?

15 Yes. So, for the record, the witness has encircled the area on

16 the map D727 which contains the two names, Zapolje and Gornji Orlica.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, before the war, did Muslim population live there?

19 A. 100 per cent.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you show the Trial Chamber the Serb part of Orlica

21 and then a place called Grabovacka Rijeka?

22 A. [Witness points]

23 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber how far your hamlet is from

24 Grabovacka Rijeka?

25 A. They are very close.

Page 10238

1 Q. And from your hamlet, well, how far is Srpska Orlica?

2 A. 500 metres.

3 Q. These hamlets, Grabovacka Rijeka and Srpska Orlica, are they part

4 of some municipality?

5 A. Yes, they are.

6 Q. Which one?

7 A. Fakovici.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has also put a circle

10 around -- is that Stari or Orlica or what? What would be the two letters,

11 ST, in front of Orlica? What do they stand for?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Tiro, the Presiding Judge is asking you about this part that

14 you've called Serb Orlica. Is it called Serb Orlica or Stara Orlica?

15 A. Srpska Orlica.

16 Q. Thank you. Just for the sake of clarifying things in the

17 transcript, I asked you what local commune or community are these hamlets

18 a part of? What I mean are Grabovacka Rijeka and Srpska Orlica?

19 A. Srpska Orlica is within the local community of Bjelovac.

20 Q. And what about Grabovacka Rijeka?

21 A. Fakovici.

22 Q. So we are talking about a local commune, not actually a

23 municipality?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. In Orlica -- now, can you tell us what the ethnic

Page 10239

1 makeup of the population was in Orlica. Apart from the part where you

2 lived, you've already told us that it was Muslim.

3 A. In Srpska Orlica there were 100 per cent Serbs.

4 Q. Had there been any Roma in that area?

5 A. The Roma lived in another village which was the Roma village and

6 they were the majority there in that particular village.

7 Q. What was the part of the village where they lived?

8 A. Donja Orlica.

9 Q. Were those Roma of Muslim faith?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And now could you please show Tegare to the Trial Chamber?

12 A. [Witness points]

13 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of the population of Tegare before the

14 war?

15 A. Half and half.

16 Q. In other words, it was a mixed population?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would now like to ask you to show the villages of Vranesevici.

19 Could you perhaps mark the village of Vranesevici there? And then

20 Stanatovici. It's just below -- it's just below Vranesevici if it is of

21 any help, right. Kaludra. Polimci. Then Ratkovici. Ducici. Dvorista.

22 Magudovici. Oparci. And could you also show us the area of Fakovici and

23 the hamlets in that area, Popovici, Seona, and Mlecva. Thank you.

24 As to this last group of villages that I asked you about and

25 you've shown us from Vranesevici onwards, are those Muslim or Serb

Page 10240

1 villages?

2 A. They are 100 per cent Serb villages.

3 Q. Could you show the Trial Chamber where Bradjevina is? Bradjevina

4 is not marked on the map but could you more or less locate it on the map

5 even though it's not marked?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness places an X between

7 Magudovici and Vranesevici which he alleges -- agrees to be Bradjevina.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you tell us how far Bradjevina is from your hamlet?

10 A. Two and a half kilometres.

11 Q. Is it as the crow flies or if you walk down the road?

12 A. Down the road.

13 Q. Is it closer as the crow flies?

14 A. There is very little difference there.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you the following in relation to

16 the position of these villages. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber

17 what exactly the altitude of Bradjevina is in relation to your hamlet in

18 Gornja Orlica? Could you tell us anything about that?

19 A. For my village, the altitude is 300 metres, and Bradjevina, it's

20 double that.

21 Q. In other words, Bradjevina is at an altitude which is higher than

22 that of your village?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How far is the village Ratkovici from your village?

25 A. Four kilometres.

Page 10241

1 Q. And how far is Fakovici from your village?

2 A. Four and a half kilometres.

3 Q. And now I'd like to ask you to show the Trial Chamber a number of

4 other villages. Could you show us Orasici, if you can. Then Sikiric.

5 Then Loznicka. And then Bjelovac.

6 Could you tell the Trial Chamber what the ethnic makeup of those

7 villages is? For example, Orasici and Loznicka to begin with?

8 A. Orasici and Loznicka are 100 per cent Serb villages.

9 Q. And what about Sikiric and Bjelovac?

10 A. Sikiric and Bjelovac are almost half and half. Actually, Bjelovac

11 is mostly Serb, and Sikiric is 50/50.

12 Q. If we look at this entire area and take a comprehensive view of

13 the area, could we say that the majority of the population of there area

14 before the war was Serb or Muslim?

15 A. It was Serb.

16 Q. As to your village, Zapolje and the hamlets of Zapolje including

17 your hamlet of Gornja Orlica, could you say that they were surrounded by

18 Serb villages before the war?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have already got an

21 exhibit number but I would like to ask the usher to keep the map there

22 because we are going to keep using it in the course of the entire

23 testimony for this witness.

24 Q. Mr. Tiro, was this a calm area until the end of the 80s?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10242












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Page 10243

1 Q. Did the situation change in 1991?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did things start to happen at night, which disturbed and gave

4 cause for concern to the population in that area?

5 A. Yes. Already in 1991, they started their training by the end of

6 the year.

7 Q. How did you know that? Did you hear anything?

8 A. Well, my sister and my cousin Memic Resad went to Trbajvina

9 [phoen], and just behind them there were shots, and they even knew who

10 actually fired those shots.

11 Q. Can you tell me whether your sister tried to find out what was

12 going on?

13 A. Yes, she did. She asked one Serb man, "What's going on up there?"

14 And he said, "Our people are having training in a place called Kecovina

15 [phoen]. This is training for the reserve forces of both the army and the

16 police."

17 Q. You mentioned 1991. Was it by the end of the year?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Or was it in the beginning of 1991?

20 A. Yes, it was at the end of 1991.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Did this -- was this event an isolated event

22 or were there other similar events?

23 A. Yes, there were other similar events.

24 Q. Did it frighten the Muslim population of that area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10244

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'm going to ask you to cast your mind back to January

2 1992. Did anything happen in your immediate surroundings in the Serb

3 villages at that time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was going on there then?

6 A. Already in the month of January, the Serb Orlica, a part of had

7 been Grabovacka Rijeka, people started wearing uniforms there and my

8 neighbour, Zoran Jovanovic already had a specific hat on his head.

9 Q. You talked about these people who started wearing uniforms in

10 January 1992. Were they Serbs? Is Zoran Jovanovic Serb?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I clarify the

13 transcript, please? It said that it was a specific hat but in fact the

14 witness said something more specific. He said he had a specific type of

15 insignia which was a kokarde on his head.

16 Q. Am I correct, witness, that you made a reference to a kokarde?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Witness. And thank you, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yes. But these people, you said started wearing uniforms as early

21 as January 1992, did they have anything else?

22 A. Well, yes. They had weapons.

23 Q. What type of weapons did they have?

24 A. They had automatic rifles, M-48s and machine-guns.

25 Q. Did you, in the course of March 1992, have any contact with any

Page 10245

1 police force in the village called Gornja Orlica?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What police force?

4 A. The Serb police.

5 Q. Did you yourself see any Serb police officers at the time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who did you see?

8 A. I saw Zoran and Petko Jovanovic.

9 Q. So there were Serbs then, where were they from, those two?

10 A. Zoran Jovanovic was from Srpska Orlica and Petko Jovanovic was

11 from Grabovacka Rijeka.

12 Q. Did you talk to them and if you did, what did they tell you?

13 A. Well, we did talk to them and they said that they were setting up

14 their Serb police force at Fakovici and that we no longer had anything to

15 do with the municipality of Bratunac.

16 Q. In other words, they said that the Serb police would be competent

17 for that area; did I understand you correctly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did they mention any municipality on that occasion?

20 A. Yes. They told us that a new municipality was being set up,

21 Skelani municipality.

22 Q. Did you notice at that time, or shall I put it in another way.

23 Did you in the course of March and April 1992 notice anyone being armed in

24 that area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10246

1 Q. Who?

2 A. Serbs.

3 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what did you see exactly?

4 A. We saw helicopters flying over Grabovacka Rijeka and my village as

5 well as Ranesovici [phoen], towards Bradjevina, Magudovici, Ducici and

6 they were transporting weapons there.

7 Q. The villages you mentioned, is that the general area of Ratkovici?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you describe the helicopters for the Trial Chamber? What

10 did they look like? And were there any markings on them, if any?

11 A. Yes. They were of dark green colour, military helicopters, with a

12 red cross on them.

13 Q. As you said a minute ago, they were transporting weapons. How did

14 you know what was it that they were transporting?

15 A. We had a great friend of ours, a Serb. He was a great friend of

16 the Muslims, and his name was Stojan.

17 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter missed the last name.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did he tell you anything?

20 A. He would come to our village on a daily basis and he said that

21 these helicopters were bringing weapons that are being distributed to the

22 Serbs.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreter did not catch the name of this Serb

24 friend of theirs. It was Stojan who?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stevanovic.

Page 10247

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Sorry to have interrupted you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. This Mr. Stojan Stevanovic, did he mention what sort of weapons

4 they were?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did he say?

7 A. He said that they were bringing in mortars, Zoljas, hand-held

8 rocket launchers, and automatic and semi-automatic rifles as well as

9 machine-guns.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tiro, could you please go back to the map for a

11 moment and show the Trial Chamber the road between Bjelovac and Fakovici.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, the witness indicates by

14 running along the road that flanks the Drina River on the Bosnian side,

15 from Bjelovac right down to Fakovici.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, does that road pass by your house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That part that goes next to your house, how far is it actually

20 from it?

21 A. As the crow flies, about 200 metres.

22 Q. Is it possible to see the road from your house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If one stood next to your house, what part of the road is visible?

25 But first of all, let me ask you the following. Is the road higher in

Page 10248

1 terms of altitude or lower than your house?

2 A. Lower than my house.

3 Q. If one is to stand next to your house, what part of the road would

4 be visible, if any?

5 A. From Tegare almost to Fakovici. That's the part of the road that

6 you can see down in the valley.

7 Q. Could you also see a part of Grabovacka Rijeka?

8 A. To a large extent.

9 Q. Thank you. In April of 1992, did you reside in your village?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In April of 1992, did you personally see something taking place on

12 that road?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you see? Could you tell the Trial Chamber.

15 A. I saw trucks, both military and civilian, going between Bjelovac

16 towards Fakovici and back.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you see whether they were empty or loaded?

18 A. We could see the civilian trucks and that they had no tarpaulin

19 covers so we could see that they did carry some goods but we couldn't see

20 what was in the military trucks because they were covered.

21 Q. Could you see what it was that was on the civilian trucks?

22 A. We were most interested in that, and we approached the road

23 through a forest to see what it is they were transporting.

24 Q. What could you observe, if anything?

25 A. On those civilian trucks, we saw heavy weaponry.

Page 10249

1 Q. Please describe for the Trial Chamber what those heavy weapons

2 were.

3 A. There were Pragas, antiaircraft guns, mortars, grenades, and

4 ammunition crates.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tiro, concerning this, another question for you:

6 You said you've -- you were a member of the mountain infantry during your

7 military term. At that time, were you acquainted with artillery weaponry?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The things that you saw, how many trucks were there?

10 A. I personally saw about a dozen. Or ten, to be precise.

11 Q. How long could you move freely in the area where you used to live,

12 including the surrounding Serb villages?

13 A. I could personally move about until the 3rd of May 1992.

14 Q. Why did you mention that date, the 3rd of May 1992? Does that

15 mean anything in particular for you?

16 A. I remember that date clearly because there were no shops of ours

17 remaining, and I went to Fakovici to buy flour, and I met with some of the

18 horrific things that the Serbs were doing at the time.

19 Q. What did you see exactly and where? Where did you go, if you

20 remember?

21 A. Grabovacka Rijeka, the hamlet of Progon [phoen]. When I came

22 there, and this is closely to Fakovici, I looked towards Drina, the Drina,

23 and I saw a large vessel. They were transporting weapons across the

24 Drina, and on this side, there were about 50 Serb soldiers in olive-drab

25 uniforms awaiting the vessel and the weaponry.

Page 10250

1 Q. In relation to that, I have a question. You said there was a

2 vessel, a boat. Can you tell us from what direction it came, because you

3 were familiar with the area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So what was the direction that the vessel came from?

6 A. It came from Bracevci [phoen] towards the Bosnian side.

7 Q. Are Bacici [phoen] a place in Serbia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Apart from that vessel, for which you said was transporting

10 weapons, did you see anything else in Serbia?

11 A. One could see Gornja Treznica [phoen] and that part of Serbia

12 where they set up heavy weaponry, with their nozzles turned towards Muslim

13 villages.

14 Q. When you said towards Muslim villages, which villages do you have

15 in mind?

16 A. Zapolje, the Muslim part of Tegare, Mocevici, and my hamlet of

17 Gornja Orlica.

18 Q. Thank you. You said you saw a vessel carrying weapons. Could you

19 see what it was transporting?

20 A. Yes. There were machine-guns, grenades in crates, and other

21 infantry weapons, as well as ammunition.

22 Q. So you saw the crates?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You said you could move freely until the 3rd of May 1992. Were

25 you frightened by this event? Did you continue towards Fakovici or did

Page 10251












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10252

1 you return home?

2 A. I went back home.

3 Q. Did you, until April or the 3rd of May of 1992, go to Mocevici?

4 A. Yes. On the 25th of April.

5 Q. Why did you go there?

6 A. Because I learned I could find and buy some flour up there.

7 Q. In order for you to reach Mocevici at that time, were you forced

8 to go through any of the Serb villages?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which one?

11 A. I had to go next to Srpska Bradjevina.

12 Q. On that occasion, did you see anything close to Bradjevina?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. What did you see?

15 A. I saw they set up in a pine forest some heavy weaponry.

16 Q. Can you remember in what part of Bradjevina the weaponry was?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where it was? Could you show it

19 on the map that is in front of you?

20 A. This is Bradjevacko Brdo and Magudovica Brdo.

21 Q. Magudovica Brdo and Bradjevacko Brdo, are they close?

22 A. They are actually linked.

23 Q. As you said, they set up heavy weaponry?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What sort of heavy weaponry was it when it comes to Bradjevacko

Page 10253

1 Brdo?

2 A. There was an antiaircraft gun, as well as PAT, the so-called PAT.

3 Q. How about Magudovica Brdo?

4 A. There was a Praga and two mortars.

5 Q. You said you went on a road. Was it possible for someone to see

6 it from that road that you were on?

7 A. The armour that was in Bradjevacko Brdo, that was very close to

8 the road.

9 Q. How close or how far?

10 A. Five to six metres.

11 Q. Practically speaking it was right next to the road.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you do?

14 A. I was about 50 metres away from it and I heard some conversation.

15 I went below the road and went around towards Mocevici.

16 Q. If I understood you correctly, you went into the forest?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you able to observe where the weaponry was turned to?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what direction?

21 A. Towards Mocevici.

22 Q. How about Magudovica Brdo?

23 A. The nozzles were towards Poznanovici, Podkorjen.

24 THE INTERPRETER: And the witness said another name of a village

25 that the interpreter didn't catch.

Page 10254

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What was the name of the other village between

2 Poznanovici and Podkorjen?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you repeat the names of the villages we were

5 discussing some locations concerning weaponry at Magudovica Brdo. What

6 were those villages?

7 A. Those were Muslim villages. The nozzles were turned towards

8 Poznanovici and Podkorjen.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Concerning those locations with heavy weaponry, were there any

12 people to be seen there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who?

17 A. Stevo Stevanovic and Milo van Milanovic.

18 Q. Where were those people from?

19 A. From Bradjevina.

20 Q. Are they Serbs?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were there other people with them?

23 A. There were a number of people there, but their backs were turned

24 towards me.

25 Q. Thank you. During the same period, that is the second half of

Page 10255

1 April of 1992, could you see the area of Tuk?

2 A. It is a part of Grabovacka Rijeka right next to my village.

3 Q. Yes. Did you observe anything there, if anything?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. What did you see?

6 A. I saw machine-gun nests.

7 Q. Were you alone when you saw them?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Please tell the Chamber who you were with?

10 A. My brother-in-law, Mitici Sacir.

11 Q. Were you worried by that situation? Were you trying to find as

12 much detail about Serb positions, their weaponry?

13 A. I was very interested in seeing that, to learn as much as

14 possible.

15 Q. Was that a reason --

16 A. That was the only reason.

17 Q. Was that the reason why you went to Tuk?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Describe for the Trial Chamber what it was that you saw. What did

20 those machine-gun positions look like?

21 A. They were set up on the coast line towards the Drina. They cut

22 down some trees and it looked like nests behind which they put -- they

23 mounted machine-guns, and the nozzles protruded between the tree trunks.

24 Q. Could you see the machine-guns?

25 A. Yes, with the naked eye.

Page 10256

1 Q. Did you see anything else next to the nests, ammunition or

2 anything else?

3 A. There was a lot of ammunition in crates.

4 Q. Were any of the crates open?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you see if there were people next to the machine-gun nests?

7 A. Yes, there were.

8 Q. Could you recognise any of them?

9 A. Yes, I could. Radivoje Sekulic and his brother Mikajlo Sekulic.

10 Q. Do you remember Milomir Andric and Micic, Slobodan?

11 A. Yes, they are neighbours of mine.

12 Q. Did you see them over there?

13 A. I saw them in Gajevi.

14 Q. This place of Gajevi how far is it from Tuk?

15 A. As the crow flies about a hundred metres up on a hill.

16 Q. What was the distance that you saw them from?

17 A. I was about a hundred metres away.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask the

19 usher to give D508 to the witness.

20 Q. Before that, I would like to ask you the following. The people

21 that you mention, Milomir Andric and Mica Slobodan, were they standing

22 close to any of the weapons?

23 A. Yes. They were standing close to a mortar.

24 Q. Could you please take a look at this document. I showed it to you

25 in your proofing, didn't I?

Page 10257

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please take a look at the cover page. It is -- it has a

3 title of "Military conscripts list." Please take a look at the third

4 page. It says NB -- MB platoon. ERN number is 01315598. Did you find

5 that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please take a look at the names under numbers 6 and 9.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is page 01315598, and a

9 clarification, if I may, for both the Chamber and the witness. These are

10 usually documents in the format of A3, and they cannot fit on to a single

11 page. The next following page 01315599 is actually the continuation of

12 the previous page of 01315598, and one could look at it this way, if you

13 could please look at me, and I would ask the witness to bear with me as

14 well.

15 Q. Please take a look at the people mentioned under 6 and 9. Andric,

16 Milomir, and Micic, Slobodan. Are those the people that you mentioned?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please look at the column number 6 on this page. There is a date

19 of joining the JNA. This is the 18th of April 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I want to make sure that we can -- 6.

22 We are talking of Milomir Andric, son of Milenko, no?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is number 6.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 10258

1 JUDGE AGIUS: According to you, Madam Vidovic, in the third

2 column, forget the third -- the third is 28 October 1956, Vranesevic,

3 Bratunac. The fourth column is Bratunac. What is the fifth -- what does

4 your fifth column, in the original language, read, please?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the fifth column, it says, if you

6 mean the column.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The fifth column, yeah, which supposedly is rank --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Rank, it says infantry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And a third PB soldier and then the

11 date.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the sixth column. I've precisely asked to

13 you clarify all this because earlier on, I heard you say that in the sixth

14 column, it says 18th April 1992. What I have in the English language, in

15 the English, it says 1993.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I was --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the original, it says 1992, and

19 it is clearly visible that number 2 was corrected. Thank you for

20 directing my attention to it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, if you can -- usher, I need to

22 see on the ELMO the B/C/S page.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic can give us again the ERN number or you

25 can lend us --

Page 10259

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 01315599.


3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I can offer further clarification.

4 The next column states the date of entry, the 3rd of January 1993.


6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So one couldn't be registered in the

7 book prior to joining the JNA.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. All right. We've seen it. We've

9 seen it. And we can proceed. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm grateful for

12 Madam Vidovic's assistance. We also have a problem with the document. On

13 the second page, with ERN number 99, the first column, five, when we go

14 down to six lines and compare that with the English translation, I believe

15 it's not exactly clear to us what would be in that column, if we could

16 help.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Bosnian language, it is

19 clearly stated, "infantry." I invite the witness to confirm that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. In relation to this I

22 wanted to ask you the following --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied, Ms. Sellers?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we understand that there was just an

25 error in the translation, the English version. Is that what I imagine my

Page 10260












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10261

1 learned counsel is saying?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not understanding that. The translation

3 "infantry," here, in the English version, is a correct reflection,

4 correct translation, of the corresponding word, which we have in the

5 original document. That's how I understood it. In other words, in both

6 documents, you have "infantry".

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, fine Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The sixth person in the list, so if you look at the

9 English translation, what may have a little bit confused us is the line

10 before, which is empty. All right? But that's the fifth person, not the

11 sixth person. All right.

12 MS. SELLERS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... grateful,

13 Your Honour.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, Ms. Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, you said that you served in the mountain infantry?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now I'd like to ask you about the infantry in the former JNA at

20 the time when you did your military service. Did that mountain infantry

21 have any mortars at the time that you were there?

22 A. They had all types of heavy weaponry.

23 Q. Thank you for clarifying this. And now I'm going to ask you

24 something else. Do you remember the beginning of May 1992? Did you

25 Muslims, in the beginning of May 1992, for any reason at any point stop

Page 10262

1 going to Fakovici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you explain the Trial Chamber why it happened? Could you

4 please leave the map there with the witness.

5 A. In the beginning of May, two underage boys were captured by Serbs

6 and they were taken to the command post at Fakovici.

7 Q. Did you know those underage boys? Do you remember their names?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Who were they?

10 A. Biser Isakovic and Ibro Mujic.

11 Q. What happened to them in Fakovici? Do you remember?

12 A. Yes. They were held there for an entire day. In the meantime --

13 Q. Can I just ask you whether you yourself talked to them upon their

14 return?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were they mistreated in any way there?

17 A. Yes. They were all black and blue all over their bodies, their

18 backs. They said that for no reason at all they were beaten up.

19 Q. Can you tell us how long they were kept there?

20 A. Just one day.

21 Q. You told us that you talked to them. What exactly did they tell

22 you?

23 A. Yes, I did talk to them, because I was amongst the people who were

24 there. We went to visit the children and see what had happened to them.

25 And so they started telling us what had happened to them in Fakovici, that

Page 10263

1 they were beaten up and that they saw soldiers.

2 Q. But just before we move on to that, I'd like to put another

3 question to you. Did they tell you who captured them and who took them to

4 that command post at Fakovici?

5 A. Yes, they did. It was Zoran Jovanovic. He introduced himself as

6 the deputy police commander at Fakovici. And Petko Jovanovic was the

7 commander of the Serb police at Fakovici.

8 Q. Where were those two people from?

9 A. Zoran Jovanovic was from Srpska and Petko Jovanovic was from

10 Grabovacka Rijeka.

11 Q. What else did those boys tell you?

12 A. Well, they told us that they saw soldiers up there, that they were

13 getting ready, making preparations for some kind of departure, and that

14 they were getting on to buses. They were loading arms on to buses, and

15 they were loading arms on to a truck, and the truck was the property of

16 the agricultural cooperative in Fakovici and that's what they were doing.

17 They were loading ammunitions and weapons on to the truck and they went in

18 the direction of Skelani.

19 Q. What did they tell you? Did they describe the appearance of those

20 people, what clothes were they wearing?

21 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. What about the two boys? Did they tell you anything specific

23 whether they came back? Did they have a message for the Muslims of the

24 area?

25 A. Yes, they did. As of the 12th of May 1992, we should all

Page 10264

1 surrender to the Serb army and we should all relinquish our arms.

2 Q. Mr. Tiro, in relation to this, I'd like to ask you the following

3 question. You mentioned Skelani a short while ago. Do you remember

4 whether in the course of 1992, in the course of the war, you ever had the

5 opportunity to talk to any Muslim refugees from any of the Skelani

6 villages?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember anyone in particular?

9 A. Yes. I do remember Vehbija Skaljic.

10 Q. Where is he from?

11 A. He is from Tokoljaci.

12 Q. What did he tell you in the course of your conversation that might

13 refer to Fakovici, in case he did say something?

14 A. Well, I myself asked him what was going on up there. And he said

15 to me the Fakovici command, people entered Skelani and they were sowing

16 destruction all over. They were torching and destroying things and they

17 were raping women, taking them away, and I asked him where to and he

18 said, "I don't know."

19 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Tiro. We clarify this last bit of information?

20 It says in the transcript that he said that "the Fakovici command." Did I

21 understand you correctly that you said that "the people who had come from

22 Fakovici"?

23 A. Yes, thank you.

24 Q. Fine. Did he on that occasion --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 10265

1 When did this conversation with this Muslim from Skelani take

2 place? Because you just mentioned 1992. Which part of 1992?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the end of May.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you. May I just put another question to you? Did

6 Mr. Skaljic on that occasion in the course of your conversation, make any

7 reference to the fact that at Tokoljaci he might have seen or recognised

8 the person from Fakovici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did he say exactly?

11 A. He told me that he recognised the driver of the bus, whose name

12 was Tico, but his nickname was Macedonian, and he used to live in

13 Fakovici.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

15 now I'm going to move on to another area so it might be convenient to have

16 a break at this point, if you agree.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Of course, Madam Vidovic. We'll have a

18 25-minute break starting from now which means we will reconvene at 10 to

19 11.00 Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Ms. Sellers.

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. I've just been asked

24 to convey by Mr. Wubben, first of all thanks for your concern for his

25 health but secondly in terms of the 92 bis motions that the Prosecution of

Page 10266

1 course will preserve the position until the filing of the motion.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.

3 When I said earlier I was referring to filing that -- on the 15th

4 of August, more or less and that was subject of course to confirmation

5 from Mr. Wubben because that was how I was reading that document. All

6 right.

7 Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Tiro, I hope that you still have the map from before. Can you

10 show the Trial Chamber the location of the place called Ruljevici? I

11 don't think that it is indicated on the map because it's a very small

12 village indeed, but could you perhaps locate it on the map anyway and

13 could you please mark it with an R?

14 A. [Marks]

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. The witness has

17 indicated -- has put an R in the space between Grabovacka Rijeka and

18 Vranesevici. Yes, thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And in this respect, Mr. Tiro, I'm going to ask you for what this

21 place Ruljevici was known before the war?

22 A. The place Ruljevici was known for its old primary school, because

23 that school covered those Serb villages. It was the only school for those

24 villages.

25 Q. Do you mean the area of Ratkovici. Ratkovici, Bradjevina,

Page 10267

1 Kaludra, Anesovici [phoen]?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification. Do you remember if

4 anything happened to that school at any point in time before the war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what exactly it was?

7 A. About two years before the war, the school was closed down and the

8 children were sent to school in Fakovici.

9 Q. Did you know for what reason the school was closed?

10 A. Yes. That school was turned into a military facility.

11 Q. When you say military facility, do you mean a military facility

12 for the JNA?

13 A. No. A military facility for the Serb people and the Serb

14 military.

15 Q. Right. How do you know that the school was turned into a military

16 facility on the basis of what can you claim that?

17 A. Because we had already noticed them meeting even before the war.

18 I mean, all those villages in the area were Serb villages and they were

19 holding meetings and they also had some kind of training.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I need to clear this because the

21 witness said that this school was converted into a military facility two

22 years before the war. I need you to specify exactly, therefore, whether,

23 by April of 1990, 1990, this school had already been converted into a

24 military facility.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 10268

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Right. Before the presiding Judge asked you this question, you

4 mentioned that there was a military training going on there. On the basis

5 of what did you claim that?

6 A. Because we could hear shooting.

7 Q. Thank you. Is it something that was widely known to villagers of

8 the whole area, if you can tell us?

9 A. Yes, everybody knew.

10 Q. Before the war, did you ever know or have you ever met Mr. Zivko

11 Prokic?

12 A. Yes, I knew him very well.

13 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber anything about the character of

14 that man?

15 A. He was an exceptionally good man. We were very good and very

16 close friends, and he was very good to all Muslims.

17 Q. Mr. Zivko Prokic is a Serb, isn't he?

18 A. Yes, he's a Serb.

19 Q. Did you have any contacts with Mr. Zivko before the war?

20 A. Yes. Very often.

21 Q. In what way?

22 A. We helped one another.

23 Q. Could you please testify the Trial Chamber where Mr. Zivko Prokic

24 used to live?

25 A. Zivko Prokic used to live in the village of Ruljevici.

Page 10269












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Page 10270

1 Q. How far was his land from the school in Ruljevici, the school that

2 we've mentioned earlier on?

3 A. Just 20 metres across the river, or away from the river.

4 Q. Yes. Did I understand you correctly in that you said that the

5 only dividing line between his land and the school was the river?

6 A. Yes, just the river.

7 Q. Did you meet with him at some point in mid-April 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For what reason?

10 A. It was the spring season, and we had to sow our crops, and I

11 helped him with his fertilisers in mid-April. I was with him --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I just want to ask is it possible that

14 he mentioned the name or testify about what is the name of the river from

15 where he's described the village on our map, the river that I would

16 indicate would be the Drina River. Can we just put the name of the river?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

18 Mr. Tiro, you've heard Madam Sellers's comment. Could you give us

19 the name of the river, please?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The name of the

21 river is Grabovacka Rijeka.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 One moment, Madam Vidovic.

24 Judge Eser?

25 JUDGE ESER: Just a question with regard to the size of this

Page 10271

1 village. It's rather unusual that it's not on the map. What is the size

2 of this village, Ruljevici, as compared to Bjelovac or your own home

3 place?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the same size as my own

5 village. It had somewhere between 15 and 17 houses.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may I'd just like

7 to clarify.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Many small villages and hamlets are

10 not indicated on the map because this is a one-100.000 map, just for the

11 sake of clarification. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Now, I'm going to put the following question to you, sir. You've

13 told us that you had met with this man at some point in the middle of

14 April 1992. Did you actually go and visit him on his land?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see anything on that day from his land?

17 A. Yes, I did. I saw things very clearly.

18 Q. Let me just put the question to you first. From that land, from

19 that part of the field that you were working on, were you able to see the

20 area of the school and the surroundings of the school?

21 A. Yes. The schoolyard and the access to the school as well.

22 Q. When you talk about access, you mean access from what direction?

23 A. From Ratkovici, Validovici [phoen], Bradjevina, Ducici, Kaludra,

24 Polimici, all those villages that gravitate towards Ratkovici.

25 Q. So you could see their access way to the school?

Page 10272

1 A. Yes, the direct access to the school.

2 Q. Thank you. What else did you see around the school? Actually,

3 what did you see on that day?

4 A. I saw large numbers of uniformed people.

5 Q. When you talk about large numbers, how many do you mean? Can you

6 assess that?

7 A. About 300 people.

8 Q. What were those people wearing?

9 A. They were wearing uniforms, camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. Right. Do you remember if they were carrying anything?

11 A. Yes, they were carrying weapons.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what sorts of weapons they had?

13 A. They had automatic and semi-automatic weapons, M-48s and

14 machine-guns.

15 Q. Thank you. Were you able to see who those people were? Where

16 were they from?

17 A. Yes, for the most part. The ones I knew because they were all my

18 neighbours.

19 Q. Have I understood you correctly in that you've just said that

20 those were people from the surrounding Serb villages?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know any of those people?

23 A. Yes, I did know quite a few of them.

24 Q. Do you remember what was the thing that you noticed first on that

25 day?

Page 10273

1 A. Yes. I remember a group -- well, there were several groups which

2 separated in front of the school. They went into this creek, and they

3 were doing shooting exercises there.

4 Q. Can you remember any event to do with Mr. Andrija Ilic?

5 A. Yes, Andrija Ilic is somebody I could see very clearly.

6 Q. Where was he from?

7 A. Grabovacka Rijeka. He came in front of the school in Ruljevici

8 and I heard some noise around the school, and he was being told to get a

9 weapon, and he was saying, "I don't want a gun, and I'm going to throw it

10 into the water anyway."

11 Q. For how long did you actually stay and observe what was going on?

12 A. For about half an hour.

13 Q. Where exactly were you observing it from?

14 A. From about 20 metres ago behind the tree next to the river.

15 Q. Was Mr. Zivko any way near you?

16 A. Zivko was 15 metres away from me.

17 Q. You told us that you knew most of those people. Do you remember

18 recognising any -- anyone in particular?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In this respect, Your Honour, I had the intention of showing you a

21 video, D97, but we are having some technical problems. So instead of

22 doing that I'm going to be using a photo, which is a Defence Exhibit, D96,

23 so I would like to ask the usher to show this Defence Exhibit to the

24 witness.

25 I would just like to clarify to the Trial Chamber that this photo

Page 10274

1 is a part of a video which was exhibit D97, D97, which was filmed on the

2 15th of December 1992.

3 Mr. Tiro, I would like to you take a look at the face of this man.

4 Do you recognise this person?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who is it?

7 A. This is Mr. Ilic.

8 Q. Did you say Novo Ilic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell me where this person's from?

11 A. From the centre of Bjelovac.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please. I want to make sure that there

13 is no confusion here. We are having the word Novo Ilic now. Before, I

14 heard him say Andrija, Andrija Ilic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he did mention Andrija

16 Ilic with regard to a fight. It's somebody else. It's not the same

17 person that we can see here. Could you just say the name of this person

18 very clearly?

19 A. Jovo Ilic Bjelovac.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, it is Novo

21 Ilic, N-O-V-O, from Bjelovac.

22 Q. Do you know the Ilic family?

23 A. I do know them very well.

24 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how come you know people from

25 Bjelovac?

Page 10275

1 A. I know Novo's brother.

2 Q. No. Before we go on to say that, I would just like to put a

3 general question to you. How do you know people from Bjelovac? Is there

4 any special reason why you know so many people from Bijelovac?

5 A. Yes, there is; because I went to primary school at Bjelovac.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to answer the next question about

7 the Ilic family. Do you know anyone else from that family?

8 A. I know his brother, who is called Stojan Ilic, and his nickname is

9 Kole and I know Rado Ilic as well. He's also his brother.

10 Q. Right. And in this respect, I'd like to ask you the following.

11 Did you see that person in Ruljevici on that occasion?

12 A. Yes, I saw him and I saw his brothers as well.

13 Q. Since we are talking about the Ilic brothers, can you tell me

14 whether you remember any events from April 1992 that had anything to do

15 with any of the Ilic brothers?

16 A. Yes. I do remember about the end of April, Novo's brother Stojan

17 Ilic called Kole came to buy firewood from my cousin, Resad Memic, and he

18 came with his own truck. When he came into the village, he opened the

19 door, and -- I mean he opened the door of his truck and we could see that

20 he had weapons, he had an automatic rifle and a gun in his truck.

21 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like the witness to be shown the Defence

22 Exhibit D254. D254. It is a list from the Territorial Defence of

23 Bjelovac, the draftees per squad and from 1992 and I'd like the witness to

24 look at the document. On the page where we've got the list of names and

25 the number is 01320441.

Page 10276

1 I would like to you take a look at the names: Number 1, Ilic,

2 Stevo, Stojan. 3, Ilic, Stevo, Novo. And number 32, Ilic, Stevo, Rade.

3 Did you see those names?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are these the people that you were referring to earlier?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is Stevo their father? Could you take another look at this list?

8 And could you tell us whether you know anyone else whose name is on the

9 list?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who do you know?

12 A. Stojanovic, Ivan.

13 Q. Just a moment. Is it number 16? And who else do you know?

14 A. Ignjatovic, Srecko, Goran.

15 Q. Okay. Have you got any knowledge about the other two persons you

16 mentioned that are on the list?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you learn anything from the Muslims in Bjelovac about these

19 people and, if so, when?

20 A. Yes. This Goran Ignjatovic was a great nationalist.

21 Q. Did you say Mihajlovic?

22 A. Ignjatovic, number 30. Mihajlovic, Srecko, Goran.

23 Q. Could you look under number 30?

24 A. Yes. Mihajlovic, Srecko, Goran, a nationalist even before the

25 war, and especially at the beginning of the war. He provoked Muslims in

Page 10277

1 Bjelovac.

2 Q. Could you tell the Chamber who told you about this Goran person?

3 A. Salko Golic [phoen] from Bjelovac.

4 Q. When Mr. Lolic discussed some people from Bjelovac with you, on

5 the eve of the war, did he mention something about uniforms or the weapons

6 of those people?

7 A. Yes. He said that they were all uniformed in Bjelovac and that

8 they had weapons.

9 Q. Thank you. Could you please turn to the next page? We will make

10 a small digression.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may have a moment.

12 I'm finished with this document. I would kindly ask the usher to show the

13 witness another document. That is the list of persons from VP 2465/5, pay

14 for official trip and pay for July 1992, the page number is 01335377. I

15 showed you this document during proofing, didn't I?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please take a look at the list of the TO in Tegare and Orlica. Do

18 you see the names of the people there? Do you know any of the names?

19 A. I know all of them.

20 Q. Do you remember if you saw any of these people in Ruljevici on

21 that occasion, the occasion that you've described a minute ago?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell the Chamber who is it that you saw?

24 A. Jovanovic, Zoran. Drago Jovanovic. But he's not on the list, as

25 far as I can see.

Page 10278












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10279

1 Q. Could you please stay with the list. Take a look at number 2711.

2 Take a close look at the list and tell us who is it that you saw?

3 A. Zoran Jovanovic. Ilic, Radivoje. Milenko Andric. And Dobrivoje

4 Prokic.

5 Q. All right. Could you tell me where these people are from? Are

6 they from Tegare and Orlica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. When you saw those people in Ruljevici on that

9 occasion, what were they wearing?

10 A. Olive-drab uniforms.

11 Q. Did they have weapons?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please go on to the next page of the document. You can see here

14 that it says, "TO Vranesevici." Please take a look at the names. Do you

15 know them? Or rather, did you know them before the war?

16 A. Yes, they were all my neighbours.

17 Q. All right. Did you see any of these people on that occasion in

18 Ruljevici?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who?

21 A. Jovanovic, Vitomir. Pero Prokic, Stanko Prokic.

22 Q. Were they also uniformed -- in uniforms and wearing weapons?

23 A. Yes, all of them.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we assign this

25 document an exhibit number?

Page 10280

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic, this will become Defence

2 Exhibit D728.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We kindly ask the usher to put

4 another document before the witness. This is a Defence Exhibit, number

5 D49, list of fighters from Fakovici, their salaries for the months of

6 September, October, and November, the date mentioned is the 25th of

7 January 1993.

8 Q. Could you please take a look at the list and tell us if you know

9 these people?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I just want to make sure. Do you have before you the list of

12 fighters from Fakovici, in handwriting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see any of the people mentioned on this list on that

15 occasion in Ruljevici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell the Chamber who did you see?

18 A. Milan Ilic. Tanjo Bogicevic. Petko Milanovic. Stanisa

19 Stevanovic.

20 Q. Anyone else?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You mentioned Stanisa Stevanovic. Can you remember if he was

23 carrying a weapon on that occasion?

24 A. When I was in the field, Stanisa was coming from Ratkovici and

25 Bradjevina and the other Serb villages, followed by about 100 people.

Page 10281

1 Q. Can you remember specifically whether he was carrying a weapon?

2 A. Yes. He was carrying a PM.

3 Q. What does PM mean?

4 A. Machine-gun.

5 Q. I would kindly ask the usher to put another document before the

6 witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Madam Vidovic.

8 Judge Eser?

9 JUDGE ESER: Before we leave this exhibit, I just have a question

10 to clarify whether the dating is correct in the English version. It says

11 the 25th of January 1993. And if we look to the Bosnian version, it could

12 also be read 25th of September, 1993. Even if you go further down with

13 Milanovic, Petko, it reads like 9-9-93. I'm no expert in handwriting

14 but --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is this, if I may given my assistance

16 here, because Judge Eser's comment is very pertinent. We are dealing with

17 a document which, in the English translation, carries the date at the top

18 25th of January 1993, but we -- the document deals with salaries allegedly

19 paid to fighters from Fakovici for the months of September, October, and

20 November. So to me, we are dealing with a document which, if it's dealing

21 with September, October, and November, it could be September, October and

22 November of 1992. And the date of the document would, indeed, be 25th of

23 January 1993 because, if we are dealing with a document which is dated

24 25th of September of 1993, I don't think it would deal with the payment of

25 salaries of the following two months. I mean, that's at least from --

Page 10282

1 following the line of other documents I have seen. So I don't know. I

2 mean, I can't be of any further help because I didn't write this document

3 myself, but --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be of

5 assistance, we have a similar discussion regarding a previous document,

6 and you are right, exactly. This document, as many other similar

7 documents, bears the date of the 25th of January, but it obviously deals

8 with the salaries that were -- that refer to an earlier period. So you

9 are completely right, and this is the way I interpreted it as well.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the way I understand it but of course I stand

11 to be corrected. By all means, because --

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just like to say for the

13 Prosecution's part we understand that that's the manner in which the

14 Defence is choosing to use the document. We have no indication at this

15 point whether it was to foresee salaries that were to be paid or it's only

16 speaking retrospectively. That's our only comment.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's go ahead.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what is important for

19 the Defence at this moment is that the witness is testifying on the names

20 of the people he saw in Ruljevici, wearing uniforms and carrying weapons

21 in 1992 and this is what is important to us.

22 Thank you.

23 If the witness could please take a look at the following document,

24 which is the list of fighters for VPB Fakovici on the 3rd of April 1993.

25 Q. Witness, please take a look at the names, and there are some

Page 10283

1 markings here, and then go to the next page, which states, "the 2nd

2 Company." Under number 1, there is a name, Stanisa Stevanovic. Could you

3 tell the Chamber what PM next to his name means?

4 A. Machine-gun.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

6 assigned an exhibit number, please?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Defence Exhibit D729,

8 Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Tiro, we will now go again back to that day in Ruljevici,

11 because it is very important. You told us you know all of those people

12 including Stanisa Stevanovic. For how long before that did you know him?

13 A. My entire life.

14 Q. How come?

15 A. Because we were close neighbours.

16 Q. Was he particularly close in good relations with any of your

17 relatives?

18 A. Yes. He would come to our village, but he was a great friend of a

19 family member of mine, Mr. Njemic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic, because I want to make

21 this clear, since you are focusing on this particular individual. Is this

22 the individual which is -- in this document appears behind the number 2,

23 in the second part? The first Ceta, or is it someone else?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, second platoon, number

25 1.

Page 10284

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's correct. Okay. Thank you.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, second company.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Second company, second Ceta. This is on second

4 page, the second page of the document.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And he is -- on that page.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I asked you about Stanisa Stevanovic. What did you know about him

11 from before the war?

12 A. He was rather extreme in his views. He liked to provoke, not only

13 Muslims but Serbs as well.

14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber whether you know if he belonged to any

15 political party before the war?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which one?

18 A. The Radical Party, Seselj's party.

19 Q. How do you know that?

20 A. At the beginning of April, my uncle saw him having lunch with

21 Radisa Jovanovic, with Seselj in the Brioni hotel, near Ljubovija.

22 Q. Thank you. Did anything else take place before the war in

23 relation to him?

24 A. Yes. He killed his relative, Bogdan Milanovic, over a plot of

25 land.

Page 10285

1 Q. Was there a fight?

2 A. The other person was an elderly one. He hit him once and died on

3 the spot.

4 Q. Do you know if criminal proceedings were instigated?

5 A. Yes. And he was convicted.

6 Q. Could you describe his character from what you knew of him?

7 A. It is difficult to describe it. He was a nationalist, an

8 extremist, and had he been given any position of authority, he would

9 destroy everyone.

10 Q. Could you tell us of his relations with his family before the war?

11 Were there any disputes within his own family, apart from the murder?

12 A. Yes. With his entire family.

13 Q. With who exactly?

14 A. With another relative, Stojan Stevanovic, then with his uncle and

15 they are still in dispute. This uncle is Miloje Jovanovic.

16 Q. On what do you base your assertion when you say he's still in

17 dispute with his uncle, Dzilo Jovanovic?

18 A. I went there recently to my village and I was met there by his

19 uncle Dzilo. He greeted me and burst into tears. He told me, "My brother

20 Hamed, I can no longer stand this. Stanisa wants to take all of my land

21 away."

22 Q. I will now go back to the event in Ruljevici, when you saw Stanisa

23 Stevanovic. You saw that there was a large group of people with him.

24 Where were they from, those people in the group?

25 A. Bradjevina, Magudovici, Polimci, and the upper part of Ratkovici.

Page 10286

1 Q. Among those people, did you recognise anyone else?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who exactly?

4 A. I recognised Stevo Stevanovic. I recognised Milenko Stevanovic,

5 Ljubisa Gajic.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

8 a photograph in front of the witness. We received this photograph and we

9 signed the receipt. This is photograph number 88 from the OTP. And the

10 number is 02028798.

11 To clarify the transcript, the number of the photograph is

12 020287898/22. Hyphen 22.

13 I need to repeat it again.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

16 Q. Could you please take a look at the photograph? Do you recognise

17 a person on it.

18 A. Very well.

19 Q. Who is it?

20 A. Milenko Stevanovic.

21 Q. Did you know him from before the war?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You can see him standing in front of his house. I'm sorry, in

24 front of a house. Do you know what the house is?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10287












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10288

1 Q. Could you keep the photograph, please. We'll go back to it in

2 detail.

3 Now I want to ask you the following. Did you know Milenko

4 Stevanovic well?

5 A. Very well.

6 Q. What was he like?

7 A. A great nationalist. It was very difficult for him to greet a

8 Muslim.

9 Q. Would you greet you?

10 A. No. Whenever we would pass by, we never exchanged greetings.

11 Q. Do you know anything about his role in the events in Srebrenica in

12 July 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what is it that you know?

15 A. My neighbour, told me when we left Srebrenica.

16 Q. A question before that. Did you know whether he was a Serb army

17 member?

18 A. Yes. He was a commander.

19 Q. A commander of what?

20 A. A company commander.

21 Q. Could you now go on and tell us what you intended to? What did

22 you hear? What is your knowledge of his actions in July of 1995?

23 A. My neighbour was in Potocari with all the other people and we went

24 the other way. He came to Potocari, and not just him but Stanisa

25 Stevanovic, Petko Prokic, and Stanko Prokic.

Page 10289

1 Q. Could you pause a moment, please. Did this lady tell you any

2 details about the people she saw and, if she did, could you tell us her

3 name?

4 A. Yes. Hajda Huremovic.

5 Q. What else did Ms. Huremovic tell you?

6 A. He told her to take off her sweater because it was green. She

7 commented, she said that that was the colour of Muslims.

8 Q. Was there a man close to her?

9 A. Yes. Munib Hasic, a neighbour.

10 Q. What happened next?

11 A. He got on the bus, but he took him off the bus, he took him away,

12 and nothing is known of his whereabouts now.

13 Q. When you say this Milenko, you mean Milenko Stevanovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is Ms. Huremovic alive?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we assign an

18 exhibit number to this photograph of Milenko Dzanovic [phoen] and it could

19 stay with the witness because I intend to go back to it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic. This document or this photo which

21 on the screen appears in colour, but a copy of which we have received in

22 black and white, is being marked as Defence Exhibit D730.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Tiro, in your evidence you stated that you stayed in Ruljevici

25 for about half an hour. Did you leave that place after that?

Page 10290

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. This neighbour and a friend of mine, Zivko, told me that it was

4 dangerous to stay there and that I have to leave that part of Ruljevici

5 and his property.

6 Q. Did you do that?

7 A. Yes. I couldn't use the road. Rather, he took me from Ruljevici

8 towards Grabovica via a shortcut in the forest, and he escorted me so that

9 I could get there safely.

10 Q. Thank you. In your evidence, you mentioned that the Serbs from

11 the Fakovici command issued an ultimatum to surrender your weapons until

12 the 12th of May of 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. To who did that ultimatum pertain to?

15 A. Muslims.

16 Q. Of what villages?

17 A. Zapolje and my hamlet of Gornja, and Tegare, the Muslim part of

18 Tegare.

19 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber the following: The Muslims in

20 Zapolje and in Orlica, were they armed?

21 A. Just two rifles, one automatic and another semi-automatic.

22 Q. Who were the people who had those rifles?

23 A. Razim Sezanovic [phoen], he had the automatic rifle because he was

24 the active policeman and the other person was Sevel Husic [phoen]. He had

25 this semi-automatic rifle and he was in the reserve police force.

Page 10291

1 Q. Thank you. What was the situation like in the Muslim part of

2 Tegare? Were they armed?

3 A. Yes, they had hunting rifles. They were all members of their

4 hunter society.

5 Q. How many of them approximately?

6 A. Around -- about a dozen.

7 Q. Did you turn over the two rifles you had to the Serbs in relation

8 to that ultimatum?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What did you do?

11 A. All of the families and the children and the elderly fled towards

12 Mocevici and in the forest, in the environs of the villages.

13 Q. On the 12th of May of 1992, in the forests around Mocevici, were

14 there many people in your estimate?

15 A. Thousands of them.

16 Q. Where were those people from?

17 A. From Voljavica all the way up to Josava.

18 Q. Did I understand correctly that the villagers from your hamlet

19 joined as well?

20 A. Yes. It included all Muslim villages between Josavici and

21 Voljavica and they moved towards the Drina.

22 Q. Did your co-villagers join the group close to Mocevici?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You mentioned the Drina villages -- the Muslim villages along the

25 River Drina. Did you in May and June 1992 get to talk to those people

Page 10292

1 and, if so, what did they tell you?

2 A. Yes. I spoke with people from various villages, and they told us

3 about the torching, the killings, people being taken away to camps, about

4 the rapes. I can't actually prove that I was not an eyewitness myself but

5 that's what I heard, from those people, and many of those people have gone

6 missing as well.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like the usher to show a

9 document to the witness. It is the document number 04276217. It's the

10 Brigade command of the Serb armed forces in Birac and the date is the 31st

11 of May 1992, at Sekovici. It is an order, in fact.

12 Q. And, Mr. Tiro, I'm going to read out you the most relevant bit of

13 this which reads, "Pursuant to the decision of the Birac SAR, Serb

14 Autonomous Region, Birac which regulates the moving out of the Muslim

15 population from the territory of the Serb autonomous region Birac, I

16 hereby order to set up a camp in Vlasenica and secure it in compliance

17 with international regulations. I another bid any arbitrary decision on

18 the physical liquidation of prisoners."

19 Mr. Tiro, I'm going to ask you the following questions. These

20 refugees that you told us about, did they ever mention any camps that the

21 Serbs would take them to from the area of Podrinje?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us which once?

24 A. Susica, Vlasenica, Gradina, Sase, and the Vuk Karadzic school in

25 Bratunac.

Page 10293

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, I'd like

2 this document to be attributed to an exhibit number.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. This document will become Defence Exhibit

4 731.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Mr. Tiro, let me ask you where you yourself were in 12th of May

7 1992?

8 A. I accompanied my family at a distance of about a hundred metres

9 from my house. It was a dense pine forest.

10 Q. Where is that forest?

11 A. Between my Orlica, Gornja Orlica, and Srpska Orlica.

12 Q. Were you on your own or were there other people there?

13 A. There were five more people.

14 Q. Do you remember their names?

15 A. I do. They were all my cousins.

16 Q. Could you tell us their names?

17 A. My brother, Mehmed Tiro. My cousin, Rasid Memic, Nedzad Memic,

18 Habib Memic and Zahudin Herinovic [phoen].

19 Q. What did you do on that occasion?

20 A. We wanted to find out why there was this ultimatum and what they

21 were going to do with our goods.

22 Q. How big is the place where you said you were hiding and how far is

23 it away from your houses?

24 A. A hundred metres away.

25 Q. From that area, did you have a good view of the area around your

Page 10294

1 houses?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What could you see?

4 A. We could see, after 3.00, that the Serb soldiers were coming from

5 the direction of Fakovici, Grabovacka Rijeka, and other soldiers were

6 coming from the other side, from Tegare and Srpska Orlica.

7 Q. And what happened next? What did you see?

8 A. The ones from Fakovici and Grabovacka Rijeka, up there, they

9 entered the village. The Roma part of the village of Orlica. And they

10 started shooting. They opened fire. And they torched first of all Suljo

11 Osmanovic's house, and then Salecin Isakovic's [phoen] house as well.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you see what the other group coming from the other

13 direction was doing?

14 A. Yes. That other group came and entered the other end of the

15 village, and first of all they started shooting in the direction of the

16 village and the houses and then they set Derusa [phoen] Mujanovic's house

17 on fire.

18 Q. And did they stop there? Did they just torch those three houses

19 or what happened next?

20 A. Well, they continued on both sides and they torched 30 houses.

21 Q. Did I understand you correctly in that we are talking about 30

22 Muslim Roma houses?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Tiro, from where you were, were you able to recognise any of

25 the Serbs, any of the attackers?

Page 10295

1 A. Yes. They were all neighbours from the road.

2 Q. Just a moment. Who did you recognise?

3 A. From the Fakovici, Grabovacka Rijeka direction, the leader was

4 Vitomir Jovanovic, and then there was Milan Arsenovic, Radivoje Sekulic,

5 Petko Sekulic, and Mihajlo Sekulic carrying a machine-gun.

6 Q. Right. And what about the other group of people? Did you

7 recognise anyone there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who?

10 A. Zoran Jovanovic and Drago Jovanovic.

11 Q. Is it the same person, I mean Zoran Jovanovic, the one that you

12 mentioned participated in the capture of those two young boys who had been

13 taken to the command post at Fakovici?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the

16 witness to be shown the Exhibit D48. It is a list from TO Grabovacka

17 Rijeka, Vranesevici, and the number is 00656808.

18 Q. Could you please take a good look at this exhibit? And I would

19 also like to ask you something else first. Vranesevici and Grabovacka

20 Rijeka, are they a part of the local community in Fakovici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Good. Could you take a look at the list of names here? You

23 mentioned in the course of your testimony a number of names. For example,

24 number 2, Jovanovic, Vitomir. Is it the person you said you saw in Orlica

25 on the 12th of May 1992?

Page 10296












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10297

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Number 12 and number 30 -- no, number 12 and 13, Radivoje Sekulic

3 and Petko Sekulic. Are they the people you mentioned?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Number 7, Milan Arsenovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And now, Mr. Tiro, I would like to draw your attention to the

8 bottom part of the document, which says, "For TO Vranesevici, Prokic,

9 Stanija." Did you know this man before the war?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know anything about his activities before the war, if there

12 was any activity on his part, and did you see him on any occasion?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. Can we have the list put

14 on the ELMO, please? Thank you. Yes. Sorry to have interrupted you,

15 Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Which --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Could you just put the

19 document a little higher up on the screen so that we can see the

20 signature? Right. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is the part which says --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It says "on behalf of Vranesevici."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... TV. I don't

24 know if this is -- this is a mistake in the transcript, but if you go to

25 page 64, line 23, the last three lines, "Now, Mr. Tiro, I'd like to draw

Page 10298

1 your attention to the bottom part of the document which says" --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically what we have in the English text. That's

4 why I want a clarification. What we have in the English text says: "Note

5 from April to today these people received just one salary." But in the

6 transcript, it is -- it says "for TV" --

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what that means.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a mistake in the

10 Bosnian original. It says on behalf of the TO Territorial Defence of

11 Vranesevici, Stanoje Prokic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That clears things up. So --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And this note that you've read out

14 is just above the signature. And now I was talking to the witness about

15 the role played by Stanoje Prokic, and I was asking the witness if he had

16 ever seen him on any occasion before the war.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Where?

20 A. Yes at Ruljevici in front of the school.

21 Q. Can you tell me do you remember what he was doing on that

22 occasion?

23 A. He was standing there in the perimeter of the school and he was

24 greeting people who were arriving, and I saw him greeting Stanisa

25 Stevanovic.

Page 10299

1 Q. Thank you. And now I'm going to refer you back to the events of

2 the 12th of May 1992, the events in Orlica. Do you remember whether, on

3 the 12th of May 1992, anyone was killed in Orlica? Did you see or find

4 out about anyone having been killed in that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was anyone killed and, if so, who was it?

7 A. Yes. An elderly couple was killed. Ajdan Mujanovic [phoen], who

8 was 80 years old and his wife, Tina Mujanovic, she was also 80. They were

9 slaughtered with a knife. And their grandson was there. He didn't want

10 to leave. And he was captured and he is still missing to this day.

11 Q. Mr. Tiro, did you yourself see the dead bodies of those people?

12 A. Yes, I myself went and buried the bodies together with a relative

13 of theirs when he came back.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. On that same day, did the Serbs attack the part

15 of the village where you lived, Gornja Orlica, that is?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What was going on there afterwards? I mean, were they in control

18 of that area?

19 A. They were carrying out checks and controls in all those Muslim

20 villages which were in their vicinity.

21 Q. What did you do? Did you nevertheless try and enter your village

22 and, if so, for what reason?

23 A. We used to hide in the woods during the day and during the night

24 we would go back and get our food, our supplies that we had buried, in

25 order to be able to survive.

Page 10300

1 Q. Whilst you were wandering around the woods in Orlica, where was

2 your family? Could you tell the Trial Chamber who were your dependents,

3 so to say?

4 A. I had an elderly and sick mother. I had two sisters, a brother

5 who is an invalid, and I had a daughter-in-law with her three children,

6 and also a brother-in-law and his sister and their two children.

7 Q. Were they all living in a house of some sort, or were they all out

8 in the open with the other refugees?

9 A. No. We did not even have enough space in any houses. Quite a few

10 people, actually thousands of people, were out in the open, in the woods.

11 Q. Does that include your family as well?

12 A. Yes. My family was outdoors non-stop.

13 Q. You told us that you used to walk around -- travel around that

14 area. Where were you at around the 28th of May 1992?

15 A. On the 98th -- on the 28th of May, 1992, I was in the vicinity of

16 my village. I was perhaps 50 metres away out in the woods, and -- where

17 there was a quarry. That's where I was hiding.

18 Q. Did you observe what was going on in your village?

19 A. Yes. The same people came again from both sides, and they entered

20 my village.

21 Q. When you say the same people, do you mean the Serbs from

22 Grabovacka Rijeka, the ones you mentioned before, from Vranesevici as

23 well?

24 A. Yes, from Srpska Orlica and Tegare.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

Page 10301

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, Defence counsel has tried to clarify,

2 the same people, the same --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Tiro, when you say that they were the same people who carried

6 out the attack on the 12th of May, what is the basis for your claim?

7 A. It's on the basis of the fact that I saw them and I recognised

8 them on that occasion once again. I also saw them and recognised them on

9 the 28th of May in 1992, and that was with reference to those 30 houses

10 once again.

11 Q. Well, can you tell us what actually happened on the 28th of May?

12 A. On the 28th of May, they first plundered our houses and they then

13 proceeded to destroy and torch them as well.

14 Q. Was your house torched on that occasion as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell me, first of all, what was the month of June like

17 in that year? Do you remember?

18 A. It was very rainy. There was not a lot of sun.

19 Q. Right. Do you remember what state those refugees, including your

20 own family members, were in, out in the forest?

21 A. They were in a terrible state. They had no food, they had no

22 blankets, they had no shelter.

23 Q. What happened to your mother? First all, rather, how old is your

24 mother?

25 A. My mother at that stage was 62 years old.

Page 10302

1 Q. What happened to her by the end of June 1992?

2 A. By the end of June 1992, she fell ill. She was exhausted. And

3 because it was too cold and rainy and we did not have any food, and on the

4 4th of July she actually died.

5 Q. Was she an exception or were other people falling ill and dying

6 amongst the refugees?

7 A. Quite a few fell ill or starved simply and died.

8 Q. Were there any doctors there or anyone else who could help those

9 thousands of people out in the woods?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Apart from the problems you've just mentioned that those people

12 were encountering, such as disease, cold, hunger, was the area of Mocevici

13 under attack at any point and in any way, in that period of time, that is

14 to say June of 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In what way?

17 A. Yes. There were heavy weaponry attacks, shelling, infantry

18 attacks as well. Mocevici was under attack.

19 Q. Can you tell me about those thousands of people who were hiding in

20 the woods? Were they under attack?

21 A. Yes, of course they were, they were very exposed because they were

22 out in the open they had no where to hide.

23 Q. Were those people being wounded and killed because of those

24 artillery attacks?

25 A. Yes, many people. Many people were wounded and many people were

Page 10303

1 killed.

2 Q. Do you know anything about where the attacks were being launched

3 from?

4 A. Yes. The attacks were coming from Bradjevina, Magudovici, and

5 Ratkovici.

6 Q. What is the basis for this claim?

7 A. The fact that I was just above my village and I was standing in

8 the forest. So it was at a higher altitude and we could hear the noise

9 and then there was a flash, always, and strong explosions, powerful

10 explosions.

11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what the altitude was?

12 A. Where I was?

13 Q. No, no, no. Where the area was?

14 A. It is Kosa Urbine.

15 Q. Mr. Tiro, in this respect, may I ask you whether the Muslims in

16 that area, or you yourself were very interested in finding out what was

17 going on amongst the Serbs and what weapons they had, and where they were

18 shooting from? Were you trying to find that out?

19 A. Yes, of course we were always interested in that because we were

20 trying to find the best way of protecting ourselves.

21 Q. Right. Can you tell me whether you know about any infantry

22 fighting having taken place by the end of June 1992 or, to be even more

23 specific, do you know what happened in the second part of June 1992 in the

24 area of Tegare?

25 A. Yes. The Muslim part of Tegare was attacked and I heard shots

Page 10304

1 being fired.

2 Q. I'm just going to interrupt you there. When that happened, were

3 you yourself in the area and can you tell us, can you tell the Trial

4 Chamber, what part of Tegare are we referring to, the Serb or the Muslim

5 part?

6 A. I'm referring to the Muslim part of Tegare. And I was just above

7 Tegare and I went there because I wanted to flee in the direction of

8 Zapolje because it was a bit safer there and so I want to hide in that

9 area. And then they were attacking the Muslim part of Tegare.

10 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Tiro. On that day, and as far as you know, was

11 there any Muslim from the Muslim part of Tegare taken prisoner?

12 A. Yes. Riza Sanojevic [phoen], but he's not from Tegare; he's from

13 Zapolje.

14 Q. Right. What happened to him? Did you ever talk to this person?

15 A. Yes. He was released on the same day, at dusk.

16 Q. And did you meet him on the same day?

17 A. Yes, in Zapolje, in his village.

18 Q. What did he tell you?

19 A. He told me that he was captured by Vilomir Petrovic, who was

20 called Veljo, and he wanted to take him to the Serb command post at

21 Fakovici. And then Velisav Petrovic came along and he had a fight with

22 his brother Velimir and he let Riza go and he let him go back to his own

23 village.

24 Q. Did he mention witnessing any other Serbs alive or dead on that

25 occasion?

Page 10305












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10306

1 A. Yes. He saw two dead Serbs at Tegarska Reka.

2 Q. Right. Did he tell you their names? Do you remember?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Whose names did he mention?

5 A. Milovan Micic and Radovan Ivanovic.

6 Q. Right. Now I'd like to ask the usher to show the witness the

7 exhibit 0435987 -- 875. The list of killed fighters at the area of

8 Fakovici, Voljevici, and Tegare. So could you please look at the name on

9 the list, number 2, and then number 3. Are they the people you mentioned?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please assign an exhibit

12 number to this document? I'd also like to show something else to the

13 witness. It is the Defence Exhibit --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, this will become Defence Exhibit

15 D732. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to

17 ask the usher to show the witness the Defence Exhibit D45, D45. It is a

18 list of killed fighters from the VP military post 7042, Bratunac. It's a

19 bulky document, and I'm going to ask you to just look at the relevant bits

20 of that document.

21 Q. Could you turn to the page starting with the number 229, 229?

22 And now, I'd like to look at the number 245, 245. Have you found

23 it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Vojislav Rado Jovanovic, born in 1960 in the village of Tegare and

Page 10307

1 he was killed on the 20th of June 1992, in the village called Tegarska

2 Rieka, is that what it says?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now could we look on the next page, and the number we are looking

5 for is 317, Milovan Milisav Micic, can you take a look, born in 1957 in

6 the village of Tegare and date of death the 20th of June 1992, in the

7 village called Tegarska Rieka. Is it the person that Riza mentioned to

8 you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour, thank you. I

12 would like to -- for the document to stay with the witness because we are

13 going to come back to it. So that will prevent you having to go back and

14 forth all the time with the same papers.

15 Q. So in this respect, I'm going to ask you the following question.

16 This part of the village of Tegare which is called Tegarska Rieka, before

17 the war, was it a Serb or a Muslim hamlet? What was the majority

18 population in that part of the village?

19 A. There were three Muslim and -- houses and one Serb house.

20 Q. Right. This date of death, the 20th of June, is it in line with

21 the time when you noticed something happening around Tegare and when you

22 met Riza?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's set this document aside for the time being. I'm

25 going to ask you something else. Mr. Tiro, did you yourself in June and

Page 10308

1 July 1992 engage in any fighting? Were you a fighter?

2 A. No.

3 Q. For what reason?

4 A. Because I had no weapons, and also I had to provide for my family

5 because they were all dependent on me.

6 Q. Do you remember the 21st of June 1992? Were you in the area of

7 Ratkovici on that day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where were you?

10 A. I was in the nearby forest near my village.

11 Q. And now I'm going to put another question to you. You're very

12 familiar with there area of Mocevici. You mentioned that. That was where

13 your family was. Was it possible to enter Ratkovici from the direction of

14 Mocevici?

15 A. No.

16 Q. For what reason?

17 A. Because there were heavy weapons there. They were there -- front

18 lines there. And there was no access at all.

19 Q. Right. Do you remember the second half of June 1992, were there

20 any attacks on Mocevici from the area that we are talking about now, from

21 the Serb villages?

22 A. Yes, on a daily basis.

23 Q. What were the weapons used?

24 A. They were shelled and other sorts of levy weaponry was used as

25 well as infantry weaponry.

Page 10309

1 Q. At the end of June in 1992, did you join any combat in Bradjevina?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why?

4 A. Because my mother was on her dying bed and I couldn't leave her

5 with my sisters.

6 Q. Did you hear from anyone, anything about the fight in Bradjevina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who did you hear it from?

9 A. By Vekaz Husic. He told me that they could no longer stand the

10 shelling and the attacks.

11 Q. What did he tell you what really took place?

12 A. He told me that a group of people assembled with rifles headed by

13 Vekaz Husic, as well as thousands of civilians, and thus Bradjevina was

14 exiled.

15 Q. When did you see Bradjevina? To clarify, you said thousands of

16 civilians were there. Could you repeat what you said? It is not clear

17 what happened with Bradjevina?

18 A. Vekaz Husic and several people who had rifles.

19 Q. What was the last part you said? Did I correctly understand that

20 they drove the Serbs from Bradjevina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Because it was unclear in the transcript.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me up to now I think

24 Madam Vidovic has done a fine job of not suggesting or leading with the

25 witness, but I think this last statement was not necessarily something

Page 10310

1 that came directly out of the witness's mouth. So maybe he could just be

2 asked the question "what did he say?" and then we can go from there as to

3 what he meant.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I my Ms. Sellers is correct, Madam Vidovic.

5 Please. Have you understood her?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But I understood that the

7 witness would have to go all over again on Bradjevina. I just wanted him

8 to say the last part of his response that was unclear on the transcript.

9 Q. What is it precisely that you said?

10 A. That there were thousands of civilians.

11 Q. Could you please complete the story?

12 A. They drove the Serbs away from Bradjevina.

13 Q. That's what I understood you said.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 Are you satisfied with that, Ms. Sellers?

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. At the beginning of July of 1992, did you see Bradjevina in

20 person?

21 A. Yes. At the beginning of July.

22 Q. Did you go there?

23 A. I went through Bradjevina.

24 Q. Were you alone or in someone else's company?

25 A. My brother-in-law and my brother as well.

Page 10311

1 Q. I'm asking you about July, not about August of 1992. Did you at

2 the beginning of July of 1992, after your mother passed away, did you see

3 Bradjevina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Why did you go to Bradjevina then?

6 A. To find food.

7 Q. On that occasion, apart from you, were there other people there?

8 A. Thousands of people.

9 Q. What were they doing?

10 A. They were taking food, construction material, in order to better

11 their situation because they were living outside.

12 Q. You say construction material. What do you have in mind?

13 A. Material, window frames, doors, bricks, anything they could get to

14 provide some sort of shelter for their families.

15 Q. Was that material taken off or from the houses?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What you saw in Bradjevina, could you see whether the houses were

18 burned down?

19 A. Not all of them, just two.

20 Q. All right. Did you go through the area of Bradjevina at the end

21 of August of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you remember exactly when in August?

24 A. On the 23rd of August of 1992.

25 Q. Why do you remember that date?

Page 10312

1 A. Because two days after that, my brother-in-law was killed.

2 Q. What did you see then, when you passed through Bradjevina?

3 A. We saw that the houses were there still, and that only Stanisa's

4 house and Milo Milanovic's house were torched.

5 Q. When you say Stanisa, is that Stanisa Stevanovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I may have misinterpreted your answer. Were those two houses

8 burned down in July? Did you see them in July?

9 A. You mean Stanisa's Stevanovic's and Milan Milanovic's who.

10 Q. Yes. Were they already burned down?

11 A. No they were burned down later. I saw it when I came there on the

12 23rd of August.

13 Q. That's when you saw that they were burned down? In other words,

14 in July of 1992, they were still standing.

15 A. They were not torched because the people of Mocevici prevented it.

16 Q. Did anyone try to prevent the civilians to take the material away

17 from the houses?

18 A. Yes. The people of Mocevici.

19 Q. Why?

20 A. They offered us to move into the houses.

21 Q. Did you want to move in?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why?

24 A. Because that place was shelled on a daily basis because they were

25 following the movement of our civilians.

Page 10313

1 Q. Who followed your civilians?

2 A. The Serb army.

3 Q. Did I understand you correctly that Bradjevina could easily be

4 seen from the surrounding area?

5 A. Yes, from almost any village.

6 Q. And you said that it was shelled often?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to where it was shelled from?

9 A. Yes. It was shelled from the side of Ratkovici, Fakovici, from

10 Serbia, by Mackov Kamen called Njemic.

11 Q. When you say Ratkovici, what part of Ratkovici do you have in

12 mind? I'm not talking about before June 1992, but in the relevant period

13 when there were still Muslim civilians walking through Bradjevina, so that

14 was after the beginning of July. Where was the shelling coming from?

15 A. Ratkovici, Fakovici, Mackov Kamen called Njemic.

16 Q. From what position in Ratkovici was it possible for one to shell?

17 A. Ratkovici are at a higher altitude than Bradjevina. They see

18 Bradjevina directly.

19 Q. Were certain areas in Ratkovici in Serb hands then?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. That shelling of Bradjevina, how often did it occur?

22 A. On a daily basis.

23 Q. Were the shells hitting houses in Bradjevina as well?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could we please go back to that photograph showing Milenko

Page 10314












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10315

1 Stevanovic? This house next to Stevan Stevanovic, can you recognise it?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the photograph be moved

4 slightly on the ELMO so that we could see that part of the house that is

5 in the photograph? Thank you.

6 Q. According to what you know or what you saw or been through in the

7 area where you lived, can you conclude that this is a house from

8 Bradjevina?

9 A. Yes, the old and the new house owned by Stevan Stevanovic.

10 Q. Where did the damage come from, in your opinion?

11 A. This was a direct hit by a grenade.

12 Q. So you can link that to a grenade or a shell?

13 A. I could also see that the new house or, rather, its roof was hit

14 by a shell.

15 Q. So you saw that damage as well?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, you can move the

18 photograph. Perhaps this would be a good time for a break. I apologise.

19 If I may, Ms. Sellers --

20 Q. Whose house was this?

21 A. Milenko Stevanovic.

22 Q. Yes. In the transcript it was Stevan Stevanovic?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's uncertain -- certainly not

25 apparent to the Prosecution at this point that the witness is testifying

Page 10316

1 about the photograph, having recognised the structure, and now talking

2 about the roof on the structure. Is it clear that he's talking about a

3 building that is the same one in this photograph, another building? That

4 does not-- it's not apparent to the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that once this has been raised it can

6 be clarified by the witness.

7 MS. SELLERS: And also when, Your Honour, we have a time period --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, you put the question to him, please.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you recognise the houses in the photograph?

11 A. I can recognise them in the photograph, and I know what they look

12 like now.

13 Q. Let us discuss about them. Let's talk about 1992, when you said

14 you went through Bradjevina. Did you see those houses then?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you talked about the damage on these houses, did you mention

17 the roof of one of them?

18 A. The one that is behind his back, the new house. I was present

19 when it was hit by a shell in the roof directly.

20 Q. When was it?

21 A. The first or the 2nd of July.

22 Q. When you went there in July 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope it is clear now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, we can have a 25-minute break

Page 10317

1 starting from now. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Tiro, we discussed the shelling of Bradjevina. Could you tell

7 the Chamber whether the Muslims of that area at that time had any grenades

8 in their possession?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened in Stanatovici at

11 the end of June of 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What happened there? Did you see anything or hear anything?

14 A. I didn't see it, but I was told by Husic, Vekaz, that the people

15 from Stanatovici withdrew by themselves and they torched their own village

16 in order to prevent the Muslims to acquire some food and other things that

17 they needed.

18 Q. I want to change the topic now, Mr. Tiro.

19 In May, June and at the beginning of July of 1992, if I understood

20 you correctly, you spent your time in that area. Did you hear anyone

21 mention the presence of any sort of units from other areas, from

22 Srebrenica itself, in June 1992, in the combat activities that took place

23 in that area?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You are familiar with the area. Were Mocevici isolated, separated

Page 10318

1 from Srebrenica and other -- were Mocevici, or were they not, separated

2 from Srebrenica and other large Muslim villages?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's not apparent to us whether Madam

6 Vidovic is referring to first of all geographically the area of

7 Stanatovici, in terms of hearing about any other units, and whether she is

8 referring -- if we could just clarify, are we still talking about Serb

9 units? Because up until now my impression has been that the witness has

10 been limiting himself to testimony about Serb units.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. You only need to explain

12 because you did actually ask the witness -- you spent your time in that

13 area, which area? I mean, you need to be specific, especially since he

14 had referred to Stanatovici immediately before.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I would ask you the following: Do you still have the map in front

17 of you? Could you please show where Stanatovici are on the map and mark

18 them, please.

19 A. [Indicates] Where should I show?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you go and assist the witness, please?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

22 Q. I believe you underscored it already. Just show it to the

23 Chamber.

24 A. [Indicates] They are here.

25 Q. So these are Stanatovici. I was talking about the area of your

Page 10319

1 part of Podrinje, including Mocevici and the surrounding Serb villages.

2 Is that what you understand -- how you understood my question?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I asked a couple of questions about Stanatovici and you

5 explained.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I want to move on to a different topic and to ask you about

8 Mocevici itself. Are you quite familiar with the area around Mocevici,

9 and the entire area, including Serb and Muslim villages around Ratkovici,

10 Fakovici, Bjelovac and so on and so forth? Are you familiar with the

11 area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As regards that, I wanted to ask you the following, and I have in

14 mind June of 1992. In June of 1992, was the village of Mocevici isolated

15 from Srebrenica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you explain the Chamber why you think the village was

18 isolated?

19 A. Because it was surrounded by the Serb villages, as well as all

20 other Muslim villages.

21 Q. Does that mean that some sort of an army was present there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I meant the army of the enemy side.

24 A. And a lot of it, from all of the villages that were previously

25 marked.

Page 10320

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I noticed your microphone switched on

2 for a while.

3 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I'm sorry. I accidentally switched it on. I

4 just wanted to allow the testimony to move on. There was a question of

5 clarity.


7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by way of

8 clarification, I asked you about the enemy armed forces as regards the

9 Muslims. You said Mocevici were surrounded by the Serb forces or some

10 other.

11 A. The Serb forces.

12 Q. At that time, and according to what you know, was there any sort

13 of communication in existence between that part of Mocevici and

14 Srebrenica?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. Because there were villages in between, the villages of Spat and

18 Pribicevac.

19 Q. What was there in Spat and Pribicevac? Please explain to the

20 Chamber?

21 A. Spat was an ethnically pure Serb village, as well as Pribicevac.

22 Q. Were there any armed forces in Spat?

23 A. Yes, there was, commanded by Sretan, the son of Ilija, but I can't

24 remember the last name.

25 Q. All right. And how about Pribicevac?

Page 10321

1 A. They also had an armed presence, and it was completely surrounded

2 by mines.

3 Q. Thank you. After your mother died, what was the situation with

4 the rest of your family? Were you starving?

5 A. Yes, to a large extent. Not only that we didn't have any food but

6 we didn't have any shelter either.

7 Q. What did you decide to do?

8 A. When I lost my mother, I spoke with my sisters and brother and my

9 brother-in-law and their two children. We decided to try to break through

10 to Srebrenica under any cost.

11 Q. What did you expect to find in Srebrenica?

12 A. At least some sort of shelter or refuge.

13 Q. So what did you do then?

14 A. We started from Mocevici, along the road towards Skenderovici but

15 we couldn't enter Skenderovici.

16 Q. Why, Mr. Tiro?

17 A. Because that village was also under heavy attack by the Serbs,

18 because that was another village that was completely severed from other

19 Muslim villages. So we had to go around through a pine forest that was

20 very dense in order to come out behind Pribicevac.

21 Q. Did you encounter any difficulties en route?

22 A. Yes, when we got to that pine forest. I don't know whether they

23 had noticed us or not, but there was a great deal of shooting.

24 Q. What did you do?

25 A. My son-in-law and myself simply took the kids because we were the

Page 10322

1 strongest, and down there, behind Pribicevac, we simply jumped into a

2 creek and then my brother and my sister did the same, and so nobody was

3 injured at that stage.

4 Q. And did you manage to break through to Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes. By way of that creek, and then we got to one end of

6 Srebrenica, not the beginning of the town, but I remember that I went

7 through this creek and we entered the part of Srebrenica called Petrica.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, I see in the transcript he says my

9 son-in-law. Is that correct? Did he have a son-in-law at the time?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Tiro, did you mention that you had a brother-in-law maybe?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it was a brother-in-law. My sister got married back in

13 1983.

14 Q. And the time when you entered Srebrenica was after the 4th of July

15 1992. Did I understand you correctly?

16 A. Yes, on the 6th or the 7th.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. So this has been cleared up now.

18 How did you find Srebrenica, do you remember?

19 A. When I entered Srebrenica, I almost was sorry for having come,

20 when I saw what had happened to that town.

21 Q. What did it look like?

22 A. It looked horrible, the houses had been burnt, not just a couple

23 but most houses, and I immediately realised that it was impossible for us

24 to find some kind of housing there, for myself and for my family, I mean.

25 Q. And did you manage to find accommodation any way?

Page 10323












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10324

1 A. Yes. I was going through Srebrenica and I got to the bus stop,

2 and there across the street I found a smallish house.

3 Q. How many of you stayed at this smallish house?

4 A. At that time, my family and myself.

5 Q. How many?

6 A. There were 12 of us. And afterwards, some other relatives joined

7 us, and we had to take them in as well, so in three rooms there were 17

8 people.

9 Q. How big were the rooms?

10 A. Three metres by three and a half or three by three.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm going to put another question to you now. In the

12 period of time that you were in your village in May and June 1992, did

13 many people go missing on their way to Srebrenica in an attempt to break

14 through and break out of that area and get to Srebrenica? Do you know

15 anything about that?

16 A. I do know of some people who went missing, some people who were

17 killed or who were badly injured. They lost their legs or whatever.

18 Q. Thank you. Well, at the period of time when you were in

19 Srebrenica between the 6th and the 7th of July and onwards, did you hear

20 about people going missing from the villages? I mean, people who went

21 from Srebrenica to look for food in those villages?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show

24 Defence Exhibit to the witness, it's D589. And it is a list of civilians

25 who went missing from the area of the municipality of Bratunac.

Page 10325

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, whilst we are waiting for you to get this document, I'm

2 going to put another question to you. Does this fact of people going

3 missing refer to the civilians having come from Bratunac as well?

4 A. Yes. They were all civilians at the time.

5 Q. Fine. Mr. Tiro, I'd like you to take a look at this list. Can

6 you look at page 4 of the document?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English version

8 of the text it's page 6.

9 Q. And you, Mr. Tiro, should look at page 4. We've got numbers

10 starting with 1 until 36. Do you know any of the people on the list?

11 It's page 4 for you, sir. Have you managed to find it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know any of the people here? Look at the bottom part of

14 the text because there are references to Tegare. From number 13 onwards,

15 do you know any of these people?

16 A. Zulfija Zildzic, Amira Alic, Nihada Alic, Ismet Jahic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are numbers 30,

18 31, 32, and 36 in the document.

19 Q. Could you tell me how come you know these people?

20 A. They are all my neighbours, and Amira Alic is a sister-in-law.

21 Q. When was the last time that you saw these people?

22 A. The last time I saw them was at some point in mid-May.

23 Q. I would like to ask you whether they stayed behind in the Mocevici

24 area when you left?

25 A. Yes, they left -- they stayed behind.

Page 10326

1 Q. Right. Did you hear anything about what happened to them?

2 A. They were taken captive. They were in Bratunac, and these three

3 people were released, I know they were released.

4 Q. Which ones?

5 A. Amira and Nihada Alic and Zulfija Zildzic.

6 Q. Did they tell you about their experiences, about what they went

7 through in Bratunac?

8 A. Amira Alic did say, but her sister, Nihada, she was a child. She

9 was not even seven years old.

10 Q. And what did Amira say?

11 A. She said that a Serb would provoke her and took her out of the

12 camp.

13 Q. Right. Thank you. I would now like you to look at page 8 of the

14 document -- or rather, page 5, and page 8 in the English version. So the

15 next page, basically, is the list of missing persons from Bratunac

16 municipality. Could you take a look at the names of these people? Do you

17 know anyone? It's page number 5 in the Bosnian version. It's a very

18 short list. Just a couple of names.

19 Can you see whether the first name on the list is Hajda Mujic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know these people?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who do you know?

24 A. I know all of them.

25 Q. Can you tell us about their fates?

Page 10327

1 A. These people went missing when they were looking for food, from

2 Tegare and Orlica.

3 Q. You mean looking for food?

4 A. Yes, looking for food.

5 Q. Could you look at the name Mujanovic, Nazif, does it mean anything

6 to you?

7 A. That was the boy who on the day when his grandparents were killed,

8 on the 12th of May, was taken to an unknown location.

9 Q. Has he ever come back?

10 A. Never.

11 Q. Has anyone else come back, any of the people on this list?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Right. We already have an exhibit number for this document.

14 I would just like now to ask you, sir, how you found out about the

15 destiny that befell those people?

16 A. Because --

17 Q. We can continue.

18 A. Because we went looking for food as well and a neighbour of mine,

19 Ibrahim Mujanovic, told me about that because he was present as well and

20 he managed to get out.

21 Q. So he saw them being captured?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did he tell you who actually captured them?

24 A. He simply told me that it was the Serbs from Orlica and Tegare.

25 He didn't see anyone else from the outside.

Page 10328

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 Judge Eser, please.

4 JUDGE ESER: This is just a question before we leave this

5 document, just a question with regard to language. The witness, if you go

6 back to the list which in the English is on page 6, and I think it was on

7 page 5 in the Serbo-Croat, the witness very often speaks of neighbours.

8 Now, I'm not quite sure what he means with neighbours because all these

9 people are not from list home place but from Tegare. Now, perhaps

10 neighbour in Bosnian, Serbian means something different from English. In

11 English, neighbours, I think, these are people who live around, and it's

12 difficult to understand why he had so many neighbours, even in Tegare.

13 Just to clarify this point.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, could you please explain how far Tegare is from your own

16 house?

17 A. It is only 500 metres away.

18 Q. Yeah. Only 500 metres. And could you explain to the Trial

19 Chamber what you mean when you say "neighbours"? Who do you mean?

20 A. I mean the villages which are close to my own village, the

21 surrounding villages as well.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, apparently in our

23 language it has a broader meaning than in German.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Same in my language. Let's make a distinction

25 between immediate neighbours and neighbours. That explains it all.

Page 10329

1 Immediate neighbours are those who live in the same street, almost next

2 door to you while others who live nearby can still be your neighbours. So

3 this is -- at least it's clear on I thank Judge Eser and Madam Vidovic and

4 the witness for making it clear for us.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. By the end of August 1992, you said that -- I mean what I

7 understood you to say was that you left in July and that in August 1992,

8 together with other members of your family, including your brother-in-law,

9 you went to live in Srebrenica. Is my understanding correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. By the end of August 1992, and generally speaking in August 1992,

12 was your family in a difficult situation in terms of food?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you do anything about it?

15 A. Yes, we did. We decided to try and get back to our village, and

16 we set out through the forest.

17 Q. Why back to your village, precisely?

18 A. Because that's where I was most familiar with the area.

19 Q. And you said we decided we should go through the woods. So who

20 decided this together with you?

21 A. I myself, my brother, Mehmed Tiro, and my brother-in-law, Batiti

22 [phoen].

23 Q. Was there anyone else there?

24 A. A neighbour called Hamdija Hadzic.

25 Q. Do you know how far you managed to get?

Page 10330

1 A. On that occasion, we travelled a long time. We set out from

2 Srebrenica across the creeks and forests. It took us a long time. All I

3 know is that I got near Mocevici in the morning.

4 Q. How long did you stay in that area?

5 A. You mean Mocevici?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. We did not linger. We simply went ahead and went in the direction

8 of our village.

9 Q. Fine. And how long did you stay in your own village?

10 A. We stayed two days.

11 Q. And what happened then? Did you go back to Srebrenica?

12 A. We got to the village, we took some food, and we set out for

13 Srebrenica, in the direction of Grabovica, Ruljevici, and Ivanisovici.

14 Q. Why in the direction of those villages?

15 A. Because I knew that they had fertile fields, that crops had been

16 sown on that I could find some beans and potatoes and other vegetables

17 there.

18 Q. And do you remember how far you managed to get?

19 A. We got as far as Ruljevici. We got to a field which was called

20 Bare, ponds.

21 Q. Who was the owner of that field?

22 A. It belonged to Petko Prokic.

23 Q. And what did you do?

24 A. We picked some beans, string beans, and we got some potatoes, and

25 my brother-in-law and I stopped for a cigarette, and then we tied a horse

Page 10331

1 a little fit further to graze.

2 Q. Could I just ask you what sort of clothes you used to wear, you

3 yourself, your brother, et cetera?

4 A. We wore civilian clothes.

5 Q. Did any one of you have at least a part of any military uniform?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And can you explain what happened next?

8 A. We didn't manage to smoke a cigarette. I heard a voice behind me

9 and somebody swore at us, and they started shooting straight away.

10 Q. Did you see that person?

11 A. I just turned around and I could see Stanisa Stevanovic and he was

12 accompanied by some other people, and, at that moment, I jumped over the

13 hedge and I could see that my son-in-law had fallen to the ground and he

14 was screaming.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, it's not son-in-law, it has to be

16 brother-in-law.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yes. It's "zet," which is a brother-in-law.

19 You said that you went over the hedge. Did you feel anything at

20 that stage? Were you injured?

21 A. Whilst I was running away, I could feel something weird in my left

22 arm, and so I hid behind the horse and all the bullets hit the horse, and

23 basically I could run away through a forest and I managed to save my life.

24 Q. Were you wounded?

25 A. Yes, in my left hand.

Page 10332












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 10333

1 Q. Do you have any consequences? Can you show us?

2 A. Yes, of course. My hand -- my arm basically goes stiff whenever

3 the weather changes.

4 Q. Can you show it?

5 A. Yes. It's this finger there.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tiro, at that stage, did you manage to see what

7 happened to your brother-in-law and your brother? You already said that

8 your brother-in-law was screaming that he was mown down. Did you see in

9 what part of the body he was shot?

10 A. It was just below the knee.

11 Q. And did you see what was happening to your brother?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And what did you hear afterwards, if you heard anything at all?

14 A. When I was already in the woods, I heard a machine-gun being

15 fired.

16 Q. Did anyone shout anything?

17 A. Stanisa Stevanovic was shouting, "don't run away. You can't run

18 away from us."

19 Q. At what time of day did this happen?

20 A. At 12.00 exactly.

21 Q. And what did you do next? Did you manage to take shelter

22 somewhere and what happened next? Can you tell us?

23 A. Yes. That man called Hamdija Hadzic, since he managed to escape

24 as well, we down to the river behind the school in Ruljevici, and there

25 was a kind of valley there around the river and we went and hid behind a

Page 10334

1 wall and we waited until darkness fell.

2 Q. Did he help you with your wounds or not?

3 A. Yes. He ripped up his shirt and he tied it around the wound so as

4 for me not to bleed to death.

5 Q. And what happened then? You said you waited until the night-time.

6 What happened then?

7 A. I wanted to find out what happened to my brother-in-law and my

8 brother, whether they were dead or wounded or perhaps whether they had

9 gone missing altogether.

10 Q. So have I understood you correctly, you have just said that you

11 wanted to turn back?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you manage to get back to that place?

14 A. Yes. When darkness fell, together with Hamdija Hadzic, I went

15 back. I couldn't find my brother anywhere and my brother-in-law was lying

16 on the ground. And his left leg had been cut off completely, and there

17 was a bullet wound in his head, and the entire back of his head was

18 missing, his brains were spilling out on to the road.

19 Q. What did you do?

20 A. What could I do? I was wounded, and we simply dragged him. The

21 other guy helped me a little bit and he actually tried to tie his head

22 together so that it didn't fall to pieces, and then at the end of the

23 night we got to Mocevici.

24 Q. All right. What did you think about your brother's fate at the

25 time?

Page 10335

1 A. I had no hope to see him alive again, because I've either thought

2 he would have been killed.

3 Q. Did you ever actually find out what happened to your brother?

4 A. Yes. I found out by the end of 1992.

5 Q. Did you get a message that came with the international convoy that

6 entered Srebrenica? Did they have a message for your family?

7 A. The first convoy that entered Srebrenica, well, that was the

8 happiest day of my life. I heard straight away from my sisters because

9 they were the one who is were reading the letter, and they were really

10 pleased, and they said, well, our brother is alive.

11 Q. I understood that you got a letter. Did they bring any other

12 letters?

13 A. Yes, quite a few letters.

14 Q. When did you see your brother again?

15 A. I saw him again only as late as 1999.

16 Q. Did you talk about the event in August 1992 with him? About what

17 happened once you parted your ways?

18 A. Yes. I was really interested.

19 Q. Mr. Tiro, it is extremely important for us to have a break between

20 the question and the answer. So what exactly did he tell you?

21 A. I was extremely interested in it because I was present on that

22 occasion, so the two of us didn't really want to discuss it in front of

23 our sisters or in front of the children of one of the sisters, so we sat

24 apart from anyone else and then I asked him what they did to him, where

25 they took him, whether he was beaten, and he told me his story.

Page 10336

1 Q. Can you tell me what he told you? What happened after you all

2 scattered after the first shots that were fired and when your

3 brother-in-law was shot?

4 A. He was also shot just below the knee, and he was shot in the bone

5 almost but -- and he was also shot in his hand, and his hand is basically

6 paralysed even now, and he was not assisted in any way.

7 Q. Just take it easy. Did he tell you about your brother-in-law?

8 Did he tell you anything about the brother-in-law?

9 A. Yes, he explained it to me in great detail.

10 Q. What did he say?

11 A. He said that Stanisa's colleagues captured him when he was wounded

12 and they dragged him in the direction of the place where the

13 brother-in-law was killed, and Stanisa put the machine-gun against my

14 brother-in-law's head and he blew his brains out.

15 Q. Can you tell me whether he or anyone else said anything to your

16 brother on that occasion? Did your brother tell you?

17 A. The others wanted to kill my brother as well. Stanisa said, "No,

18 I need him alive."

19 Q. Did he say why?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did he say?

22 A. He said because he wanted to find out who participated in the

23 action at Bradjevina, and who killed Slavko Jovanovic.

24 Q. When you say who participated in the action, do you mean what

25 Muslims or what Serbs?

Page 10337

1 A. What Muslims participated and whether my brother himself

2 participated as well.

3 Q. Right. And did he tell you what happened next?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did he say?

6 A. He said that he was then basically made to board a tractor and

7 then he was taken to the Serb command post at Fakovici.

8 Q. Did he say anything about being questioned there?

9 A. Yes. He was questioned by Stanisa Stevanovic himself.

10 Q. Did he say anything about any medical assistance being provided to

11 him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did they do to him?

14 A. He was seriously wounded so he tended to lose consciousness. So

15 they put him in a car, he didn't remember what car it was, and they took

16 him to Skelani, and they took him to prison there.

17 Q. And can you tell me about what went on at that prison in Skelani?

18 Was he given medical assistance straight away?

19 A. No. For the first four days, he was given no medical assistance.

20 Q. And when was he given some medical assistance, if any?

21 A. On the fifth day, the prison manager could see that his leg was

22 basically lost, and he gave him some cigarettes, and he shouted at his

23 people, and he took him to the hospital at Uzice straight away.

24 Q. Do you remember his name?

25 A. I don't remember his first name but I do remember his family name.

Page 10338

1 I don't know whether he was a judge or a lawyer. Somebody called Zekic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you can -- you've got a few more

3 questions on this, close it.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a couple more questions on this

5 topic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, prior to Madam Vidovic continuing with

8 this, I would just like to inform the Trial Chamber but also Madam Vidovic

9 that this information concerning the brother and brother-in-law in

10 Skelani, we were just unaware that this was going to be part of the

11 direct-examination, from the summary. If there is any further information

12 you could advise us on it would be quite helpful, possibly prior to

13 tomorrow's continued examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to stand up

16 now because I actually discussed this event and the people involved with

17 the colleagues from the Prosecution, and I insisted on a statement that I

18 know will be in the Prosecutor's office, and I've discussed Stanisa

19 Stevanovic with them on a number of occasions. And I'm really astonished

20 that the Prosecution is claiming that they did not know that we might

21 bring this up and discuss these facts with this witness, because more

22 specifically in fact we discussed a statement that I myself got from the

23 Prosecutor's office. I mean, and apart from anything else, it was only

24 logical to conclude that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please discuss this among yourselves after the

Page 10339

1 sitting is over, but this has been a very tiring sitting for -- must have

2 been a very tiring sitting for the interpreters trying to catch up.

3 Please finish the next few questions that you have so that we'll give them

4 a rest.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I only have two

7 or three questions.

8 Q. Could I just ask you whether your brother told you what Stanisa

9 Stevanovic asked him about in the course of that questioning that you

10 referred to earlier on?

11 A. He said that he questioned him about who was involved in the

12 attack on Bradjevina, whether he himself participated in that attack and

13 who killed Slavko Jovanovic.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could you tell us how long your brother spent

15 at the hospital in Uzice?

16 A. 28 days.

17 Q. Could you just tell the Trial Chamber very briefly how he managed

18 to get out of the hospital?

19 A. He got out with the help of a doctor, of a lady doctor who worked

20 at the hospital.

21 Q. Your brother didn't want us to mention her name?

22 A. He did not want her name mentioned for her own safety.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think we

24 can stop now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think you have most of the information you

Page 10340

1 required, at least out of the evidence, Ms. Sellers.

2 We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

3 In the meantime, I wish to thank the interpreters and technicians

4 for having overstayed a few minutes with us. I realise it must have been

5 difficult for you today. I thank you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, 6 September 2005,

8 at 9.00 a.m.