Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10341

1 Tuesday, 6 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own

10 language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. Good morning to you.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Patricia

16 Sellers with the Office of the Prosecutor, and with me are co-counsels

17 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager,

18 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, and good morning to the Defence team.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam, and good morning also to

20 the rest of the team.

21 The appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

23 is Ms. Vasvija Vidovic, and together with John Jones I appear on behalf of

24 Naser Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our

25 CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good mornings to the colleagues from

Page 10342

1 the OTP.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Vidovic, to you and the rest of

3 the team.

4 Before we bring in the witness, a few housekeeping matters. I was

5 looking at the schedule, our timetable, and I would like to update you on

6 a few. First of all, we spoke yesterday of having the sittings of the

7 week starting the 12th up to the 16th, that's next week, shifted to the

8 morning with the exception of Monday, the 12th. I wish to confirm to you

9 that it is being -- it has been changed as I suggested, in other words,

10 12th we will be sitting in the afternoon. The rest of that week we will

11 be sitting in the morning.

12 Then I also noticed later on that the last week of this month, the

13 week starting 26th of September right through and including Friday,

14 30th September. Monday and Friday we were sitting in the morning in

15 Courtroom I, while Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday we were supposed to

16 sit in this courtroom in the afternoon. I know that we are going to have

17 some Judges from somewhere visiting here, and they will probably be using

18 this courtroom in the morning and that's probably why we are shifted in

19 the afternoon. However, I think that we can still shift those three days,

20 Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, from the afternoon to the morning if we

21 sit in Courtroom II. So please check whether that is possible. If it is

22 possible, let's move to Courtroom II, unless I hear any objections to the

23 contrary from the parties. Okay.

24 Then we had spoken about the week in October when I had told you

25 that we may have some problems and to which Madam Vidovic referred

Page 10343

1 yesterday. That's the week starting on the 3rd of October right through

2 the 7th, right through the 7th. The position is as follows: We will be

3 sitting on plan the 3rd, the 4th, and the 5th, the 3rd, the 4th, and

4 the 5th. But we will not be sitting at all on the 6th and on the 7th,

5 because on those two days at least two of us are seriously hampered. All

6 right?

7 So that's the position for the time being. We are telling you

8 this now so that you can prepare beforehand and schedule out -- spread out

9 the witnesses accordingly.

10 I have read the Prosecution response to the Defence motion filed

11 under Rule 92 bis regarding Avdo Huseinovic. I need to discuss it with

12 the other two Judges of course. We haven't had a chance to discuss it as

13 yet. We will discuss it between today and tomorrow, and we will try to

14 have a decision ready either end of this week or early next week. All

15 right? Thank you.

16 Any preliminaries? Prosecution? Defence?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

18 MS. SELLERS: Neither from the side of the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's bring the witness in and let's continue.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Tiro.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. I hope you had a good rest.

25 Yesterday you testified for 3 hours and 15 minutes. Today I suppose the

Page 10344

1 Defence will finish with your examination-in-chief and we will start with

2 the cross-examination. So let's proceed. Please may I remind you that

3 you are still testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration that you

4 entered yesterday, namely to testify the truth, the whole truth, and

5 nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tiro.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Yesterday when we interrupted our examination-in-chief, I was

12 asking you about some events concerning your brother and about Mr. Stanisa

13 Stevanovic. I will pursue this issue further.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give a

15 document, an excerpt from Nijaz Masic's book to the witness. The book is

16 called "Truth About Bratunac."

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, I showed you this excerpt during proofing.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please pay attention first to the author of the book

20 whose name is Nijaz Masic, the book's title is "Truth About Bratunac," and

21 we have a table with list of victims with the various columns, name and

22 last name, father's name, year of birth, place of birth, date of death or

23 date since the person is considered missing. Could you now take a look at

24 the name which is the sixth on the list from the beginning of it. This is

25 Tiro Mehmet, son of Alija, born in 1967 in Zapolje. The date is the 12th

Page 10345

1 of April of 1993 when he was killed or disappeared, and the place where he

2 disappeared is Srebrenica.

3 I wanted to ask you the following: You told us you were born in

4 Zapolje and that your father's name is Alija and your brother's Mehmet.

5 Am I correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Apart from your brother, Mehmet Tiro, was there any other person

8 called Mehmet Tiro, son of Alija in Zapolje?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is your family, the Tiro family, the only family in that area with

11 that last name and do you originate from there?

12 A. We are the only Tiro family in Zapolje because we moved from

13 Visegrad, my father did.

14 Q. When you say "the only family" you mean the only Tiro family?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

17 Yes, Madam Sellers.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we're having a bit of difficulty just

19 finding the name on the document --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's on the second page. It's not on the first

21 page. I had difficulties, too, but if you turn to the second page it's

22 the sixth one from the top.

23 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The sixth name on the second page then.

Page 10346

1 I wanted to ask you the following: Was your brother born in 1967?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Could you tell the Chamber when he was born?

4 A. He was born on the 25th of July, 1968.

5 Q. Is it correct that he was killed or went missing in Srebrenica on

6 the 12th of April of 1993?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you by the end of 1992 know of his fate?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did many people from your immediate surroundings know of his fate?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The author of the book, Mr. Nijaz Masic, did he consult anyone

13 from your family ever to verify this piece of information?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be assigned an

17 exhibit number, please?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means. And this will become Defence

19 Exhibit 73 --


21 JUDGE AGIUS: 733, thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Tiro, I would kindly ask you to take a look at another

24 document.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would ask the usher to put

Page 10347

1 this document before the witness.

2 Q. This is a list of soldiers who received salaries for August and

3 half of September in Radijevici. The number is 04359987.

4 Mr. Tiro, please go to the last of the three pages that were put

5 before you. I will read it aloud for you. Did you find the last page?

6 It is stated here, ends with number 95. The above-mentioned soldiers

7 received their salaries for August and half of September. The Djoko

8 Djokic unit of Fakovici, the date is the 25th of November, 1992, company

9 commander, Vukoman Simic. Could you go back to the title of the document,

10 Mr. Tiro. It is stated here: "List of soldiers who received

11 salaries for August and half of September in Radijevici."

12 Could you tell the Trial Chamber the following: The village of

13 Radijevici, is it actually a hamlet of another village?

14 A. It is one of the hamlets around Fakovici.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, please go to number 51 and take a look at that

16 name, Stanisa Stevanovic. Can you see it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I wanted to ask you the following: In the area of Fakovici, was

19 there any other Stanisa Stevanovic, apart from the one that you mentioned?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know the area well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How?

24 A. That is my immediate environment, the immediate area where I

25 lived.

Page 10348












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Page 10349

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we assign the

2 number to this document, please?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become, Madam Vidovic, Defence

4 Exhibit D734.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I want to ask you something else about Mr. Stanisa Stevanovic. Do

7 you know if he had any children?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many?

10 A. Seven.

11 Q. Can you tell us whether these were boys or girls?

12 A. Six girls and one boy.

13 Q. Which one of them was his youngest?

14 A. His son was the youngest.

15 Q. I don't know whether you have already been given a new document,

16 but in that case I would kindly ask the usher to put it before the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there relevance why we should know how many

19 children he had?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is not the

21 number of children that is important but rather this document where it is

22 mentioned what the money was that was paid out to his children because he

23 was a fighter; that is relevant concerning Mr. Stevanovic's evidence. At

24 that time he claimed something that was quite different from what is in

25 the documents and you will realise it from the next document.

Page 10350

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, please take a look at this document with a title "TO

2 Skelani." The date is the 29th of October of 1992, list of fighters of

3 the Djoko Djokic unit in Fakovici who received monetary allowance for

4 children, pupils. Please take a look at 11. The name is Stanisa

5 Stevanovic (Stojka), under that Dragoljub. Between these two names, do

6 you recognise the names of Mr. Stanisa Stevanovic's children?

7 A. Yes. These are the two of the youngest ones.

8 Q. And is that the person that you mentioned throughout your

9 evidence?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we assign an

12 exhibit number to this document, please?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will be D735.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The youngest of the two, Judge Eser would like to

16 know who the youngest of the two were, whether it's Stoja or Dragoljub.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. One of the Judges would like to know who was the younger of the

19 two children mentioned here.

20 A. Dragoljub.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. And thank you, Mr. Tiro, for the clarification.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I just ask one other

24 clarification matter. Madam Vidovic has asked a question about: And is

25 the person, I'm at 9609, and is that the person you mentioned throughout

Page 10351

1 your evidence. Just to clarify, she's not referring to either of the two

2 people mentioned in the document. Is she referring back to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Stanisa Stevanovic --

4 MS. SELLERS: It's unclear from the transcript.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. I thank you, but I think it's clear

6 enough. Let's proceed. I think we are satisfied.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Tiro, concerning this I would like to ask you the following:

9 If one was to claim that Mr. Stevanovic, Stanisa, on the 25th of August of

10 1992 was not in Bosnia but rather in Serbia, would that be correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. After you returned, after the incident when your

13 brother-in-law was killed, did you immediately discuss it with the people

14 around you and did you learn something about where at that time Stanisa

15 resided?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us what it is that you finally found out?

18 A. A certain Saban of Zanjevo told me that Stanisa, right after

19 Bradjevina fell, moved into his house in Zanjevo.

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge until when Stanisa Stevanovic lived in

21 that Muslim's house?

22 A. Until 2003.

23 Q. Is it true that he refused to move out of the house after the end

24 of the war?

25 A. Yes, he wouldn't move out.

Page 10352

1 Q. Another question concerning that. Mr. Tiro, after the fall of

2 Srebrenica and after you've reached the free territories, did you give any

3 statements, either you or any member of your family, about the incident

4 that you've described for the Chamber concerning your brother-in-law? Did

5 you give any statements to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes, I gave those statements in Zivinice.

7 Q. To whom?

8 A. A person from Sarajevo came. He said he worked for the Tribunal

9 in The Hague, for the Prosecutor's office. And I gave statements

10 concerning my wounding and the killing of my brother-in-law and the

11 disappearance of my brother.

12 Q. Thank you. Another question concerning this topic: Did Stanisa

13 Stevanovic after the incident try to establish some contact with you?

14 A. Yes, on two occasions.

15 Q. Could you explain, please?

16 A. He tried to greet me in order to talk about my brother-in-law.

17 Q. Did you accept his -- this conversation?

18 A. No, and I never will.

19 Q. Can you tell us what was the last time he tried?

20 A. Two months ago in front of the municipality building in Bratunac.

21 Q. Thank you. I will now move on to a different topic.

22 Mr. Tiro, do you remember where you were on the 5th of October of

23 1992?

24 A. In Srebrenica.

25 Q. What were you doing there?

Page 10353

1 A. I was working. I was helping people to provide some shelter. I'm

2 a construction worker otherwise, and I loved helping whoever so that

3 people would have a place to stay.

4 Q. Did I understand correctly that you were working in construction,

5 that you were repairing houses?

6 A. Yes. We tried to improve the situation with the houses so that

7 people could find shelter.

8 Q. All right. Did you move towards Fakovici in that period?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When?

11 A. My relatives came in the evening, and they told me that an

12 operation will take place there for liberation and that we should go there

13 to look for food.

14 Q. When did you set out?

15 A. Around 10.00 p.m. We travelled the whole night to get there to

16 find some food.

17 Q. Those relatives of yours, who were they? Civilians or were they

18 armed?

19 A. Civilians.

20 Q. Was this a dangerous trip for you to Fakovici?

21 A. Not dangerous but very dangerous.

22 Q. Why?

23 A. That entire area joins the Drina Valley, so you didn't really know

24 which direction you could be struck from by a shell or a bullet or

25 something.

Page 10354

1 Q. The direction that you were going in towards Fakovici, were there

2 any particularly dangerous places there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which ones?

5 A. It was dangerous to pass Spat, Zalazje. Zalazje was mined and

6 Spat -- the Serb army was stationed at Spat.

7 Q. Nevertheless, did you manage to get close to Fakovici?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How far did you get?

10 A. To the outlying areas of Fakovici.

11 Q. Did I understand you properly, that you arrived there on the 6th

12 of October, 1992?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Did you manage to actually enter Fakovici?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber why not?

17 A. You could not enter Fakovici itself because there was shelling and

18 also heavy artillery fire from Radijevici and Boljevici as well as from

19 across the Drina, from Serbia.

20 Q. And which direction did you come from to get to Fakovici?

21 A. I came with my cousins from the direction of Grabovacka Rijeka.

22 Q. Did you manage to enter some of the outlying houses there?

23 A. Yes, I entered one house. I found some wheat. I didn't have time

24 for anything else and then I went back.

25 Q. At the time when you were there you spent a certain amount of time

Page 10355

1 there. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you able to see any part of Fakovici?

4 A. Yes. The direction from Grabovacka Rijeka -- actually, from that

5 direction you can see all of Fakovici, especially up to the centre, the

6 first part of Fakovici.

7 Q. And what did you see on the 6th of October, 1992? Did you see

8 burned buildings within Fakovici itself?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I just want to ask you something else. Did you go there just with

11 your cousins or were there any other people there on that day, on the 6th

12 of October?

13 A. There was civilians there, nobody could prevent them. They had to

14 go and look for food. There were too many of them.

15 Q. How many of them were there?

16 A. Well, it was in the thousands. There were thousands of people

17 going there.

18 Q. Very well. When you returned to your own village, did you talk to

19 anyone who was in Fakovici the day before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With whom?

22 A. With my cousin, Safet Memic.

23 Q. Mr. Safet Memic, did he belong to a certain armed group of

24 fighters?

25 A. No.

Page 10356












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Page 10357

1 Q. Did he himself have a weapon?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did he get the weapon from?

4 A. He found a rifle near Bradjevina in the forest.

5 Q. Did he hand the rifle over to somebody? Did anybody ask him to

6 hand over that rifle?

7 A. No, he did not hand it over, even though they did ask for it. But

8 he needed the rifle for his own needs in order to go and look for food.

9 Q. Did I understand you properly that he simply did not give up this

10 rifle?

11 A. That's right, no, he didn't give it up.

12 Q. At the time was he under anyone's command?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I would like to go back to the conversation you said you had with

15 him. What did he tell you about the events of the 5th of October in

16 Fakovici? If he said anything to you, what did he say?

17 A. Yes, I remember that well. He said that there were a lot of our

18 people that had been killed in Fakovici, that they had captured weapons,

19 ammunition, a large quantity of that.

20 Q. Very well. Could you please tell me if he told you how those

21 people were killed in Fakovici, our people, what you described as our

22 people?

23 A. Our people were killed by shells, mines, from machine-gun nests,

24 from the houses. Everybody was in their own houses. They were all

25 particularly up on the first floor of the houses so that they could have a

Page 10358

1 better view of where our people were coming from.

2 Q. And did he personally tell you that --

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it seems to me that the witness there

4 is speculating as to why people might have been anywhere that he claims

5 that there were placed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

7 With what authority do you maintain what you've just stated, that

8 our -- your people were killed by shells, mines, from machine-gun nests,

9 from the houses. Everyone was in their own houses. They were all

10 particularly up on the first floor of the houses?

11 Is this what you were told or is this what you think happened or

12 you believe happened?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. My own cousin told me this,

14 Your Honours, and he was there.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Talking about the houses and this shooting from the houses and the

17 casualties within Fakovici, could you tell us exactly what he told you?

18 A. He exactly told us that they were hit by sniper -- by machine-gun

19 fire from the houses, even from the school. They were fired upon from

20 various weapons, and they didn't even manage to bring out a certain number

21 of our people from Fakovici, that their dead bodies remained in Fakovici.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tiro, according to what you know, were there many

23 casualties and killed and wounded amongst the Muslim civilians on that

24 day?

25 A. I don't know the number, but there were many of them.

Page 10359

1 Q. On that day, on the 6th of October, 1992, did you see any of those

2 people who were wounded or killed?

3 A. Yes. Those who were on the outskirts of Fakovici near to where I

4 was. I did see them but not in Fakovici.

5 Q. I'm asking you about what you saw.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many of those people did you see?

8 A. I perhaps saw about ten people who were wounded, not wounded by

9 bullets, mind you, but by shelling.

10 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned that your cousin also talked

11 to you about arms that were seized?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember exactly what he said?

14 A. I remember that he said that they had captured a large quantity of

15 light and heavy weapons as well as two tractors of ammunition.

16 Q. Very well. Now I would like to ask you something else. I would

17 like to move to Bjelovac. Mr. Tiro, you said that you spent the fall and

18 winter of 1992 in Srebrenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did the situation in Srebrenica deteriorate as time passed from

21 October onwards?

22 A. The situation was getting worse.

23 Q. Do you remember whether you went on a food expedition sometime in

24 mid-December 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10360

1 Q. Do you remember when this was?

2 A. The 14th or the 15th, either of those two dates.

3 Q. Very well. Why did you decide to go there?

4 A. We decided because there was a food crisis and I had to go.

5 Q. But how did you find out that you were supposed to go to Bjelovac?

6 A. A friend of mine, Bego Begic from Biljaca, told me that they were

7 going to go to liberate that area because there was a large quantity of

8 food there. That's an area with a lot of fields.

9 Q. Bego Begic, is he a civilian or was he an armed person at that

10 time or was he a member of a unit, in other words?

11 A. No, no. He was an elderly man. There was no question of him

12 being a fighter. He could hardly walk.

13 Q. Very well. And what did you do?

14 A. I decided to go, and my cousins came by Suret and Enes Memic, and

15 they had their houses on the outskirts of Bjelovac, so we set off for

16 Bjelovac.

17 Q. And where did you go?

18 A. We left from Srebrenica through the forest. We reached Tri Kralja

19 and then we could go no further.

20 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what Tri Kralja is?

21 A. Tri Kralja are old mines of the Sase mines, the first old pits of

22 the Sase mines.

23 Q. Can you see Bjelovac from there?

24 A. Yes. It's at an elevation that provides a good view of Bjelovac

25 and Zalazje.

Page 10361

1 Q. Did you go there by yourself?

2 A. No. There were thousands of people besides me.

3 Q. You explained to us that you set off by yourself with your

4 cousins, but what happened then? What was this like?

5 A. There was no need to tell anyone anything or it was enough to see

6 a person put a rucksack on their back and set off and then people would

7 start to go behind you because it was evident that people were then going

8 somewhere to get food.

9 Q. When you say a "rucksack" is that a military bag or is that a bag

10 that you used to put food in?

11 A. It's a large bag that you put on your back where you put your food

12 in, and that was a kind of code word for the civilians.

13 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, according to what you know, did the

14 fighters organise you in any way to go into action, you, your cousins, and

15 the people that you knew around you?

16 A. No. The fighters would never organise or call us to do something

17 like that or lead us.

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, can you tell the Trial Chamber why the fighters would

19 not call you to come?

20 A. Because we would reveal their positions and because there would be

21 many casualties amongst the civilians, and that is why those people didn't

22 want to get into -- get themselves into trouble.

23 Q. Well, I -- you are assuming that about the fighters but I will ask

24 you again. In relation to this action, did you have any - you and the

25 people around you - did you have any information that any fighter had

Page 10362

1 called any of those people and organised them to go into an action?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On the way to Tri Kralja, did anyone stop you or not or possibly

4 prevent you from continuing on your way?

5 A. Yes. They were preventing us.

6 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber who that was?

7 A. It was a group of people who were armed. They were not Serbs,

8 they were Muslims. They were standing on the road. They didn't allow us

9 to pass. So we had to find another way, take a detour through the forest

10 and then get to the top of Tri Kralja.

11 Q. Did you or anyone else recognise anyone from that group?

12 A. No. I didn't recognise anyone. I just heard when we called out

13 to one of them, I don't know what his last name, but they called him

14 Soson.

15 Q. And what was this Soson doing?

16 A. Soson was shouting at us and turning us back. Don't go. Can't

17 you see that there is shelling? You will all get killed.

18 Q. Very well. How many people were in that group with you at the

19 time?

20 A. It was not possible to count them. There was always more than a

21 thousand people, a thousand or more people.

22 Q. Did I understand you properly that you withdrew to Tri Kralja,

23 deeper towards Tri Kralja?

24 A. Yes. We went to the top of -- the peak of Tri Kralja where the

25 old pits were.

Page 10363

1 Q. In relation to other people, this group around you where you were,

2 did you have any advantage compared to other groups or other people around

3 you?

4 A. Yes. We had the advantage that we -- that set us apart. There

5 was an elderly man there, a hunter from Srebrenica, and he had binoculars

6 with him and he was following the action and the fighting as it was

7 unfolding.

8 Q. And why was this -- these -- why were these binoculars useful for

9 you? Were you interested in the action or were you interested in

10 something else?

11 A. We were only interested in seeing which part we could enter so we

12 could get some food.

13 Q. And please, could you tell the Trial Chamber, did you manage to go

14 into Bjelovac on that day?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why?

17 A. Because of the dangerous shelling, the air force, the fighting.

18 Q. When you say "the air force," what does that mean for you? Did

19 you see something on the occasion?

20 A. Yes. We kept seeing two airplanes. They were going in the

21 direction of Loznicka Rijeka along the asphalt road and they were bombing.

22 Q. You told us that you are familiar with the Bjelovac area, that you

23 went to school there. Do you remember which parts of Bjelovac were

24 shelled? Were they flying over the entire area?

25 A. They were mostly going towards Loznicka Rijeka and Sikiric. That

Page 10364












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Page 10365

1 is where they bombed the most.

2 Q. That area where you were, Tri Kralja, were you able to see

3 Kunjerac?

4 A. Yes, Kunjerac.

5 Q. Were you able to see it well?

6 A. Yes, Kunjerac was visible because this is thousands of metres

7 above Kunjerac.

8 Q. You're talking about Tri Kralja?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time could you hear shooting and see where it was coming

11 from?

12 A. The shooting itself was coming both from inside Bjelovac, from

13 Sikiric and Loznicka Rijeka, but Kostanovici was the most dangerous place.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction,

15 Your Honours. The witness said that Kunjerac was visible because it is

16 about a thousand metres and above Kunjerac, and here it seems -- in the

17 transcript it says a thousand metres above Kunjerac. Perhaps the witness

18 can confirm what we said, that it is at an altitude of a thousand metres

19 and is above Kunjerac.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about a thousand metres.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Then I asked you how much time did you spend at Tri Kralja?

24 A. Almost three days.

25 Q. Very well. At any point did you manage to get into a part of

Page 10366

1 Bjelovac?

2 A. No. Through Sase, the Muslim part of Sase, and Vlasovac we

3 entered Kunjerac.

4 Q. How many of you came to that area?

5 A. Almost a thousand of us entered. I really couldn't count because

6 people were trampling over each other to get to the food.

7 Q. Did you notice anything on the road towards Kunjerac as you were

8 getting close to Kunjerac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you notice?

11 A. As I was approaching Kunjerac and going into the house of Ivan

12 Stojanovic, because I knew him very well, I saw an anti-aircraft

13 machine-gun and also a dead body next to it.

14 Q. Just one moment, please. Mr. Tiro, what is a PAM?

15 A. It is an anti-aircraft machine-gun.

16 Q. Very well. Did you notice anything else?

17 A. Yes, I noticed some other bodies further away.

18 Q. Very well. Just one moment. When you saw this PAM and you

19 mentioned this body, did you look at the body?

20 A. Yes, yes. I looked at the body.

21 Q. Did you recognise the person or not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And whose body was it, could you please tell the Trial Chamber?

24 A. It was Mitar, the photographer, I know him very well because I

25 always went to him when I needed to have photographs for documents and

Page 10367

1 everything.

2 Q. Where is this man from?

3 A. From Bratunac.

4 Q. And you mentioned that you saw more bodies around. Mitar and

5 these dead people, were they Serbs?

6 A. Yes, Serbs.

7 Q. What were they wearing?

8 A. Mitar and a number of them were wearing multi-coloured camouflage

9 uniforms.

10 Q. Very well.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the usher to show

12 the witness Defence Exhibit D49 -- D45, I apologise. 45. D45, D45. It's

13 a large document. It's the list of killed fighters of the Bratunac

14 Brigade. If it's easier, perhaps I can give my copy to the witness.

15 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you please find the page beginning with the

16 number 495.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that number is on

18 page 15. Both in the Bosnian and English versions, it's on page 15.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you please look whether you have in front of you

22 the page that starts with the number 495?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please look at the name under 513?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10368

1 Q. It says here Ostoja Savic, son of Mitar [as interpreted], from

2 Bratunac, killed on the 14th of December, 1992, the village of Kunjerac.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one correction for the

4 transcript. Savic Mitar, son of Ostoja, and not as it was stated earlier

5 in the transcript. So it is Savic, Mitar, son of Ostoja. Thank you very

6 much.

7 Q. Mr. Tiro, did you -- was this the person that you knew? Is this

8 the name of the person whose body you found?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that his last name? Did you know him?

11 A. Yes. That is his last name and his father's name.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. You also told us that you saw some more

13 bodies of people who were killed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that some of them were wearing camouflage uniforms.

16 Were they all wearing camouflage uniforms or were these other people

17 wearing something else?

18 A. Not all of them had camouflage uniforms. Some were wearing black

19 uniforms with markings of the military police around their left arm.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can take this document from the

22 witness.

23 Q. Did you still go to Vodovod?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Why?

Page 10369

1 A. Because Vodovod was mined, and they told us that were some

2 Red Berets there and we were frightened of them.

3 Q. Thank you very much. According to what you saw when you were

4 still at Tri Kralja, was there major fighting going on in and around

5 Bjelovac at the time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From that place where you were, were you able to see anything

8 burning in Bjelovac?

9 A. No. Bjelovac is below the hill, towards the Drina.

10 Q. And could you see the area of Loznicka Rijeka?

11 A. No. I could just notice -- when a plane was flying overhead and

12 bombing, then I could see smoke. Otherwise, you couldn't see anything

13 burning, house or anything like that.

14 Q. If I understood you properly, from that position you said earlier

15 that you were able to observe the fighting. Did I understand you properly

16 that you were able to look at the area of Kunjerac but not this other part

17 of Bjelovac?

18 A. No. As far as this other part of Bjelovac was concerned, you

19 could only hear strong detonations and firing but nothing else.

20 Q. What exactly could you see of Bjelovac, to avoid any confusion?

21 A. Only Kunjerac and a part of the entrance to Bjelovac.

22 Q. You note -- you said that you had noticed smoke from up above.

23 Where was this coming -- smoke coming from, what was your impression?

24 A. As soon as one of the two planes flew over, after it passed then

25 you could see smoke. I couldn't tell whether it was a Serb or a Muslim

Page 10370

1 house that was burning. I didn't see that.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. In the house that you entered,

3 that you mentioned before, did you find anything there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What?

6 A. I found flour, plum brandy, rakija, and five kilogrammes of honey.

7 Q. Very well. And did you stay there for a while or did you move on?

8 A. No. As soon as I took those things, I went back.

9 Q. And which direction did you take?

10 A. We took the direction below Vlasovac towards Gradina.

11 Q. And was this the area of Sase, as well as Gradina part of Sase?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Moving towards Sase, did you see anything else specifically?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did you see?

16 A. I saw an abandoned mortar and bodies next to it.

17 Q. Where exactly did you see it?

18 A. Just below the village of Vlasovac.

19 Q. Did you approach those people?

20 A. It was good luck for us to see them first --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It wasn't the bodies

22 but the people.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And we saw them when we were still

24 50 to 60 metres away.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10371

1 Q. Did you recognise any of those people?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who?

4 A. I recognised Ivko from Bjelovac and his son. They were standing

5 next to the mortar.

6 Q. Do you remember their last names?

7 A. I believe they -- their family name is Ilic.

8 Q. Thank you. You said, if I understood correctly, they stood next

9 to the mortar. Who stood next to it?

10 A. Ivko was next to the mortar and his son was a bit further away and

11 he held an automatic rifle in his hands.

12 Q. Can you recall what sort of uniforms they wore?

13 A. Multi-coloured camouflage uniforms.

14 Q. Mr. Tiro, Judge Eser asked you about the term of "neighbourhood"

15 yesterday and how come you knew and had so many neighbours. Could you

16 explain to the Chamber in our villages, in our part of the world, do

17 people know each other, and is it a regular thing that they have extensive

18 contacts with the people that are immediately next to them and in their

19 environment?

20 A. My neighbour is the person who lives in the village with me and

21 also a person living five kilometres away.

22 Q. I mentioned these people from Bjelovac. How did you know them, or

23 rather why did you know people from Bjelovac?

24 A. I know Bjelovac because I attended school there and I know Ivko.

25 He used to drive the bus between -- rather, the bus of the Srebrenica

Page 10372












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10373

1 Express Company.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I kindly ask the usher to

3 put D507 before the witness. D507.

4 Q. This is a list of military personnel of the Bratunac TO. Please

5 turn to the page that says 3rd Company at the beginning. The number

6 is 01315661. Can you see it, Mr. Tiro?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please take a look at numbers 5 and 6. Number 5, Ilic, Ivko,

9 Dragan. And number 6, Ilic, Vase, Ivko of Bjelovac. Turn to the next

10 page, please. As I explained yesterday, this should be a composite part

11 of the previous page as well. Please take a look at the sixth -- at

12 number 6 in the first column. Does it say "artillery"? Does this tally

13 with what you saw that day when it comes to Mr. Ivko?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just being told that this has

16 been given an exhibit number.

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, to continue. If I understood you correctly, you went

18 towards Sase after that. Is it correct that there is a mine there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you reach the mine?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you enter the mine on that day, either immediately or after a

23 while? What was happening?

24 A. Perhaps after half an hour there was shelling again and it was the

25 safest place to be and quite a number of us entered the mine because it

Page 10374

1 was put in concrete, so it was quite solid.

2 Q. If I understood correctly, there was shelling and that a large

3 number of people entered the mine?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you familiar with the mine?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why were you familiar with it?

8 A. When I got employed with the Majdenpek company that dealt with the

9 mines, I worked in the field. I wasn't working only in the company

10 headquarters, but all over the former Yugoslavia. I worked in Sase, in

11 Loznica, Zajecar, and in Uzice.

12 Q. When you say in Sase, did it have anything to do with the mine

13 itself?

14 A. Yes. That was my first mission.

15 Q. How much time did you spend there?

16 A. 1983 and 1984.

17 Q. So you were very familiar with the mine?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly you spent two or three days there.

20 Were you able to be there or could it have been possible for you to be

21 there on the 17th of December?

22 A. Yes, in the evening.

23 Q. As of the moment when you entered together with those people, was

24 the mine damaged? Could you explain it to the Chamber.

25 A. There is nothing to be damaged in the mine. It was the question

Page 10375

1 of life or death for us and we had to take whatever we could get. We were

2 not thinking of whether the mine would hold; we were sure it would.

3 Q. But what was of specific interest for you in the mine?

4 A. I know that this is where the salt storage was used to put on

5 roads when it was very cold, and we needed that salt for our food.

6 Q. Did I understand you correctly that the salt was used for roads in

7 winter?

8 A. Yes, in winter.

9 Q. How did you know that?

10 A. Because I used to work there and I know what they used it for.

11 Q. All right. Did you take some of the salt then?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell the Chamber, were you able to leave the mine on

14 that day, or rather that evening, because you said that's when you

15 arrived? This group of people, were you able to leave?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Could you tell us why?

18 A. Because of heavy shelling and shots being fired from heavy

19 weapons.

20 Q. Did you remain there throughout the night and how long did you

21 stay there?

22 A. Until next morning, on the 18th.

23 Q. When you left the mine, what was the next thing that happened to

24 you?

25 A. The same again, shelling, air strikes, and a truck was hit at that

Page 10376

1 moment. That's when my sister-in-law's sister was killed and her

2 relative. There were quite a few wounded with them as well.

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, you attended school in that area and you were quite

4 familiar with it. Were you able to assess where the shelling was coming

5 from?

6 A. Yes. The shelling and the shots came from Bjelovac and Loznicka

7 Rijeka up to Voljevica and from Serbia proper.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Sellers.

10 MS. SELLERS: I imagine that the witness's testimony response to

11 the question is shelling might have been coming from a certain direction,

12 unless he's clarifying it, not from a place. There has been no testimony

13 indicating that he would know that.


15 Mr. Tiro, you've heard what Madam Sellers has just remarked. When

16 you say that the shelling was coming from Bjelovac, Loznicka Rijeka,

17 Voljevica, and from Serbia proper, do you mean to say that it was coming

18 from those directions?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I want to ask you something else now. Do you recall if you had

22 any knowledge then about Kostanovici, Vezovici, Neskovici?

23 A. That was the strongest Serb stronghold and that's where there was

24 strongest resistance and shooting.

25 Q. On that day or generally speaking?

Page 10377

1 A. On that day.

2 Q. Why do you say that?

3 A. Because I was unable to go through Kostanovici and Neskovici but

4 rather I went through Vlasovac.

5 Q. Given that you were trying to go back to Srebrenica, was it

6 easier to go through Neskovici, Vezovici, and Kostanovici, provided there

7 was no shooting, and was it easier than the other route you took?

8 A. Yes, of course, because there was an asphalt road there.

9 Q. And if I understood correctly, you couldn't use it because of the

10 shooting. You couldn't go towards Vezovici and Kostanovici?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. To ask you something about a different thing: Were there any

13 killed in your group because of that shooting?

14 A. Yes, there were killed and a number of wounded.

15 Q. Did you take those people with you or were you simply running

16 away?

17 A. There was no time to get -- pull anyone out. We were saving our

18 lives.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the witness to

20 take a look at another document, please. This is a document coming from

21 the Drina Corps command. The date is the 19th of December of 1992 sent to

22 the General Staff of the VRS, signed by someone for Commander Colonel

23 Milenko Zivanovic. This is a combat report.

24 Q. Mr. Tiro, I would kindly ask you to direct your attention to

25 item 2. Please take a closer look. It is stated here: "Our forces,

Page 10378

1 during the 18th and 19th of December, 1992, they stabilised their defence

2 in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade (according to the

3 reconnaissance group report from the attack platoon the Sase mine is whole

4 and undamaged.) A truck was destroyed via artillery fire as well as two

5 motorised vehicles. Aviation destroyed the department store, the building

6 of the municipality of the court, Crni Guber spa, and a part of the

7 settlement in the villages of Pirici and Podloznik as well as some

8 personnel losses."

9 Did you understand this item, Mr. Tiro?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This document, this report, is dated December 19, 1992. First of

12 all, Mr. Tiro, could you see here that it says that people from the

13 assault platoon reported that the Sase platoon was undamaged? Is that

14 what you were able to observe on the 18th of December of 1992?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to clarify something in

16 the transcript. I read out "according to the report of the reconnaissance

17 group from the assault platoon or detachment."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sase platoon, it should be the Sase mine, no?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Assault detachment but not from

20 Sase, but it was learned from the assault detachment that the Sase mine

21 was undamaged.

22 Your Honour, this is a very important document for us and I will

23 read it aloud again because the interpretation is incorrect.

24 Q. Mr. Tiro, I will read it again.

25 "Our forces, during the 18th and the 19th of December of 1992,

Page 10379

1 stabilised their defence in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac

2 Brigade (according to the report of the reconnaissance group from the

3 assault detachment, the Sase mine is undamaged and whole)."

4 Perhaps we shouldn't continue reading, it is not necessary, but

5 rather I will reiterate the question. What you were able to observe on

6 the 18th of December is what you described. Does that tally with what is

7 stated in this document, that the Sase mine at that time was undamaged?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. To continue, it says here that the planes managed to

10 destroy a truck.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. It may say so in the Serbo-Croat

12 version, I haven't checked it, but in the English translation it doesn't

13 mention any planes destroying the truck. It says: "A truck was destroyed

14 by artillery fire as well as two motorised vehicles."

15 And then where the aviation comes in is in the next

16 part. "Aviation destroyed the department store, municipality court,

17 Crni Gruba spa and a part of the settlement in Srebrenica and made damage

18 in the villages of Pirici and Podluznik."

19 If the translation is not correct, please let us know.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't remember

21 mentioning a plane. I mentioned artillery. I will reiterate the

22 question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Look at line 12, it says: "Thank you, to continue."

24 It says here that the planes managed to destroy a truck.

25 This is what we got.

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13 English transcripts.













Page 10381

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will reiterate and it pertained to

2 artillery.


4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did artillery shell a truck on that day? Did you see that on the

6 18th of December, 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that the truck you mentioned a minute ago when a cousin of

9 yours was killed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell us her name?

12 A. Adila Huremovic.

13 Q. The document further states: "On the 18th and the 19th of

14 December, 1992, they managed to stabilise their defence line in the area

15 of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade," and then the Sase mine is

16 mentioned. Concerning that I want to ask you the following: You told us

17 that you were there in that area in the evening of the 18th. Did you get

18 an impression that the Serbs regained control, or rather was it your

19 personal impression that the Serbs regained control of that area?

20 A. Yes, because it was of importance for them.

21 Q. Mr. Tiro, leaving aside whether it was important for them, the

22 mine, I wanted to ask you the following: Was it your personal impression

23 that the Serbs gained control of that territory again?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please describe how you left the area?

Page 10382

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But before that, Your Honour, could

2 we assign an exhibit number to this document?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Defence Exhibit D736. And

4 before we leave it Judge Eser would like to put a question to the witness.

5 JUDGE ESER: Just for a matter of clarification, since the Defence

6 told us that there is some relevance where the truck was destroyed, now in

7 this second paragraph we read that a truck was destroyed of artillery fire

8 later on and it speaks of Srebrenica and so on. Now, the document is

9 such, at least it does not appear quite clear where the truck was

10 destroyed, whether it was in Sase or in Srebrenica, because Sase is

11 mentioned in brackets and Srebrenica again. Of course I don't know

12 whether it's relevant, but since you told us it might be relevant it would

13 be good to clarify this point.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It is

15 important.

16 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you tell us where the truck was destroyed and

17 whether you saw it?

18 A. Yes. The truck was destroyed at the entrance towards Gradina

19 called Kolonija.

20 Q. Is it a part of Sase?

21 A. Yes, a residential area of Sase where the workers of the mine

22 lived.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

Page 10383

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. A further question. Were you also able to notice that in the

3 document there is a mention of significant damage in the Muslim villages

4 of Pirici and Podloznik?

5 A. I heard about it but I wasn't present.

6 Q. On to a further topic, Mr. Tiro. If one was to claim that on the

7 18th of December of 1992 he or she was transported in a vehicle, in a

8 Mercedes vehicle, from Podloznik, across Bjelovac, Biljaca, Zalazje to

9 finally reach Srebrenica, would that be correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I want to know this first and foremost: Is it possible that a

12 Mercedes vehicle or any other vehicle could move from Podloznik to

13 Bjelovac before the war, during the war, and even nowadays?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, could we be given

15 the map that the witness was using yesterday, D727, in order for the

16 witness to show us where Podloznik is.

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, before you point to Podloznik, just another question

18 concerning Pirici. Are they in close proximity or not of Sikiric?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How close?

21 A. About one kilometre away.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please take a look at the map. Could you

23 show where Sikiric is and then Pirici underneath, if you are able to find

24 it. Pirici. Can you find Sikiric? That's close to Bjelovac.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to go further down, Mr. Tiro, further down

Page 10384

1 the Drina. There -- that's Bjelovac. That's Loznicka and --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sikiric and Pirici.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He has circled --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And Podloznik.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. Perhaps

8 this would be a good moment for a break.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I will continue later. I don't

11 have too many questions left.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. We will have a 25-minute

13 break.

14 Yes.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I just want to make one brief

16 announcement I already discussed with co-counsel -- I'm sorry, Defence

17 counsel this morning, is that the Prosecution would have no new exhibits

18 with this witness today. We might offer some exhibits, and we'll contact

19 both your offices and the Defence this afternoon. At this moment we

20 intend at the very most only to use exhibits that the Defence has already

21 brought forward.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

23 How long do you anticipate your cross will take?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'll take part of -- I'll take part of

25 today and certainly a part of tomorrow. I might not use the entire time

Page 10385

1 period we have today nor the entire time period of tomorrow though.


3 Will you be starting with the next witness tomorrow?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That is a very

5 complex witness and the evidence will take a significant amount of time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I spoke with Mrs. Sellers about that

8 and I kindly asked her to forward the documents that they intend to use in

9 a timely fashion, the documents they intend to use in their

10 cross-examination so that we could prepare for the re-direct because we

11 were fair enough to do that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 Let's have a 25-minute break then. Thank you. Or we can even

14 make it 30 minutes. 30 minutes from now.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's continue, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Tiro, we stopped as you were showing us Podloznik on the map.

20 And before then you said that from Podloznik through Bjelovac to

21 Srebrenica it wasn't possible to take that road by a vehicle. Could you

22 please explain to the Trial Chamber why it was not possible for traffic to

23 move from Bjelovac to Podloznik before the war and during the war in the

24 course of 1992, 1993, and so on?

25 A. The road from Podloznik through Loznicka Rijeka and Bjelovac

Page 10386

1 towards Sase and Srebrenica -- actually, first of all, Podloznik didn't

2 actually have a road, a proper road, that a vehicle could drive along.

3 Q. Just one moment, Mr. Tiro. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber

4 how long is the asphalt road from Bjelovac towards Podloznik? Where does

5 it stop, if it stops?

6 A. The asphalt road from Bjelovac to Loznicka Rijeka and then it

7 continues on towards Fakovici. From Loznicka Rijeka towards Podloznik

8 there is four kilometres but that's not part of the road. That village

9 actually didn't have a proper road.

10 Q. So how could the population of Podloznik get to Loznicka Rijeka,

11 Bjelovac, and so on?

12 A. The inhabitants of Podloznik could go by horse or they could walk

13 down to Loznicka Rijeka.

14 Q. In other words, in 1992 the road from Podloznik to Bjelovac was

15 not there?

16 A. Yes. Actually, that road is being cut through now, the road is

17 being laid down now. I am in the committee overseeing that work.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Talking about the road -- now we're talking

19 about the period of 18th of December, 1992, when you were there.

20 Regarding the road of Bjelovac via Biljaca, could you please look at the

21 map. Could you show the Trial Chamber where this asphalt road from

22 Bjelovac to Srebrenica went.

23 A. Bjelovac.

24 Q. Can you show that to the Chamber?

25 A. Biljaca, Kostanovici, Sase. You also have this over Kostanovici

Page 10387

1 and then it comes to Sase and then it goes towards Srebrenica from Sase.

2 Q. Now I am going to ask you this: On the 18th, when you said that

3 firing was coming from that direction, please, could you tell the Chamber

4 these places that you indicated, Neskovici, Kostanovici, Obadi, and

5 particularly Neskovici and Kostanovici, were these Serb areas?

6 A. 100 per cent Serb areas.

7 Q. And on that day, on the 18th of December, 1992, is it true that

8 you could not take that direction towards Srebrenica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why?

11 A. Because of their strongholds and because of the shootings.

12 Q. The firing -- the fighting that was going on on that day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very well. Please, which road did you use that day? How did you

15 return to Srebrenica? Could you please tell the Trial Chamber and maybe

16 even show it to the Chamber on the map?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please show it on the map?

19 A. We went over -- through Lasovac, Neskovici, Bjelovac, and then we

20 bypassed here below to Vlasovac and that's how we came to Sase --

21 actually, Gradina and Sase. That pit is at Gradina where we hid. So that

22 was the road. Kunjerac is somewhere around here and that's where we cut

23 through.

24 Q. How did you get to Srebrenica? Which direction did you take?

25 A. From Gradina, from this pit, we went towards Lisac.

Page 10388












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Page 10389

1 Q. Could you show Lisac to the Trial Chamber and underline it,

2 please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Very well. And then go on?

5 A. From Lisac we went to Tri Kralja, here.

6 Q. And then?

7 A. And from Tri Kralja we came down towards Srebrenica.

8 Q. Throughout the war do you know, do you personally know if at any

9 time during the war the Muslims used this road, Bjelovac, Biljaca,

10 Neskovici, and Kostanovici, and so on?

11 A. During the war?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Asphalt road?

15 A. No. It was not possible to use the asphalt road.

16 Q. And why?

17 A. Because of their lines and strongholds and the firing from their

18 side.

19 Q. Which road did the Muslims use during the war in order to reach

20 Srebrenica, if they were going in this area?

21 A. All of these people who used the road were able to go from

22 Mocevici towards Thorazac [phoen] and then from Podloznik towards Predola

23 and then Storesk and then further up.

24 Q. Could you indicate that on the map, please?

25 A. Lokve is here.

Page 10390

1 Q. Could you please adjust the map so that we can follow. Thank you.

2 A. Fetinici, Pljevlja, then Dimnici is here, and then we would go

3 around Skenderici on the other side.

4 Q. I'm asking you when you go towards Srebrenica.

5 A. Yes, that when we go towards Srebrenica, here between Spat we

6 would pass directly towards Srebrenica through the forest.

7 Q. Through the forest. Okay. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need the map. Thank

9 you.

10 Q. Now I would like to ask you something else. Do you know anything

11 about the events in the Kravica region in January 1993? Do you remember

12 Christmas, the 7th of January, 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where were you then?

15 A. I was working on a house for some people in Crna Rijeka in

16 Srebrenica on that day.

17 Q. Were you working inside or outside of the house?

18 A. Inside the house.

19 Q. At any time did you find out that something was happening about

20 food?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did you find out?

23 A. Sidik Memic and Safik Memic came to me and told me, Stop your

24 work, we're going to Kravica for food.

25 Q. Were they fighters or civilians, those two men?

Page 10391

1 A. Civilians.

2 Q. Very well. And then what happened?

3 A. I stopped with my work, I went home, took what I needed, and set

4 off towards Kravica that same evening.

5 Q. Did you know the terrain towards Kravica?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. On the way to Kravica, were you alone or were you in a group of

8 people?

9 A. There were a number of people with us. A single person meant

10 nothing, only a number of people.

11 Q. A number of people. How many people is that? Many? Few?

12 A. There were many people.

13 Q. Very well. And did you see any people who were coming back at the

14 same time from Kravica or not?

15 A. Yes, I did see them.

16 Q. And what were these people doing?

17 A. Most of them were carrying food.

18 Q. Did you speak with any of them? Were you interested in finding

19 out what was going over there?

20 A. Yes. We asked them where we could pass through and where was the

21 safest pass so that we could get some food.

22 Q. Did they mention any people that were killed or wounded or not?

23 A. Yes. They said that there were a lot of wounded and killed and

24 they said to be careful. They told us to be careful.

25 Q. Did they explain how these people were killed and where the danger

Page 10392

1 was?

2 A. Yes. They told us that the most dangerous spots were in the

3 centre of Kravica, around the school, and the entrance from Bratunac, that

4 that was where most of our people were killed.

5 Q. Very well. And when did you arrive at Kravica?

6 A. Well, let's say -- I can't really tell you the exact time but it

7 was sometime in the morning.

8 Q. Was that the 8th of January, 1992 [as interpreted]?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how much time did you need to get there?

11 A. In normal circumstances we needed some six or seven hours. But as

12 it was it took us at least 12 hours.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Because of the shelling, the shooting from various weapons. A

15 person had to seek cover in order to reach Kravica to get some food.

16 Q. Please, when you say "shelling" was this, according to what you

17 know, if you can answer, was this Serb shelling or Muslim shelling?

18 A. It was Serb shelling.

19 Q. Very well. So you came to Kravica on the 8th of January. Did you

20 see what Kravica looked like on that day?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. If anyone were to say that on the 7th of January, 1992, Kravica

23 was burned to the ground would that be true?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Could you please explain to the Chamber why not.

Page 10393

1 A. Because on the 8th when I got there there was damage to the houses

2 from the shooting and the shelling, but as far as I could see only two

3 houses had burned down. How they burned down, I don't know.

4 Q. Very well. Were you there alone when you entered Kravica?

5 A. No, not by myself. There were thousands of people there.

6 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what these people were

7 doing, these thousands of people?

8 A. They were getting food.

9 Q. And where were they getting the food from on the 8th?

10 A. From the houses.

11 Q. And were those houses burning at the time?

12 A. How could they be burning? How would a person enter a burning

13 house to get food?

14 Q. And could you tell us what you found. Did you find anything in

15 the houses?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What?

18 A. I found 25 litres of rakija, plum brandy, and five kilogrammes of

19 honey also.

20 Q. Why was rakija important to you? Could you please explain to the

21 Trial Chamber. First of all, I would like to ask you: Do you drink

22 alcohol?

23 A. Sometimes. Rakija was precious as a substitute for any food. It

24 was useful for me to be able to feed my family.

25 Q. Actually, did you want to say that you could barter or trade that

Page 10394

1 for any other food?

2 A. Yes, yes. For flour and other things.

3 Q. And did you find anything else?

4 A. Yes. I found a rifle at the same place where I found the rakija.

5 Q. What kind of a rifle was it?

6 A. It was an automatic rifle.

7 Q. Mr. Tiro, did you hand this rifle over to anyone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why?

10 A. It was the only way for me to go in search of food more freely.

11 Q. What does that mean? What did that rifle mean to you?

12 A. It meant that I could go anywhere and it was my only salvation,

13 the only way that I could save my life.

14 Q. And did you remain in Kravica for a long time on the 8th?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. Because I found what I needed and I returned and also because of

18 the shelling and the shooting. I wanted to save myself.

19 Q. When you say "shelling" what exactly do you mean?

20 A. I mean shelling. I also mean airplanes, intense firing, any

21 person who thought rationally had to get out of there to save their life.

22 Q. Mr. Tiro, in spite of the shelling and the shooting, were people

23 still coming into Kravica and looking for food there?

24 A. Yes, on a daily basis.

25 Q. How was this possible at all in such a situation? Were people

Page 10395

1 paying heed to the danger at all?

2 A. It was important for people to either find food in order to

3 survive or they would get killed. They would be dead in any case, either

4 from lack of food or from a bullet or a shell.

5 Q. Now I would like to ask you something else. At the time when you

6 were in Kravica, you found a rifle there. Did there come a time that you

7 joined a unit?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. A group of armed soldiers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which group?

12 A. I joined the Cizmici with Ejub Golic.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Well, out of my own free will.

15 Q. Yes, you decided that, but why did you decide to join Ejub Golic?

16 A. Because I knew that man from before.

17 Q. I would like to ask you this: How long did you spend in Ejub

18 Golic's group; do you remember?

19 A. I spent a long time with Ejub Golic defending Cizmici.

20 Q. During the time you were in that group, did you have contacts with

21 Mr. Ejub Golic, did you have personal contacts with him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you have several contacts with him or not?

24 A. Yes. We were in touch on several occasions.

25 Q. Tell us, do you have any information about whether Mr. Ejub Golic

Page 10396












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10397

1 and that group of people around him considered anybody in Srebrenica as

2 their commander? Was it stated that there was a command in Srebrenica?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was this command in Srebrenica mentioned at all to you in any way?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And now I would like to ask you another question. The entire time

7 in 1992 until the demilitarisation in 1993, did you receive any kind of

8 summons for mobilisation? Did anyone ever try to mobilise you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The fact that you went to Ejub Golic's unit, was that of your own

11 free will? Were you able to go anywhere or -- could you please explain

12 this to the Trial Chamber?

13 A. Once I found the rifle, I could go to any unit. It doesn't -- it

14 didn't matter whether it was Ejub Golic's group or any other group. I

15 went to his group because he's from my municipality and Cizmici were the

16 only ones that remained in the Bratunac municipality.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

21 Yes, Ms. Sellers, are you in a position to start your cross now?

22 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I'd like to start my cross.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 MS. SELLERS: But I probably will end a bit earlier today. If you

25 will give me one minute.

Page 10398

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please ask whatever you need. We have got ample

2 time since we are not going to get a new witness tomorrow. The witness

3 doesn't need a break, does he?

4 Mr. Tiro, you don't -- can we proceed straight away with the

5 cross-examination or do you need a break?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can start, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers:

9 Q. Thank you for allowing us to start, Mr. Tiro.

10 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the usher to assist in moving that back.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

12 MS. SELLERS: That's much better.

13 Q. Mr. Tiro, my name is Patricia Sellers, and as I've stated earlier

14 today I'm with the Office of the Prosecution. Now, you've just answered

15 the questions of Madam Vidovic and right now it is the Prosecutor who will

16 ask you some questions based upon many of the answers that you've given

17 but also about things that are relevant to this case, meaning what

18 happened to you during the time period of 1992 and 1993. If there is

19 something that I'm asking that you don't understand, please indicate that

20 to me. But there will be other times when I'm merely trying to ask a

21 question that requires either a yes or no answer, and if you could limit

22 yourself to that, that will assist us. But if there comes a time period

23 when you would want to elaborate a bit, please feel free to do so.

24 Now, can I just reconfirm some of the information, Mr. Tiro. You

25 testified that you were born in 1961. Isn't that correct?

Page 10399

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you have two brothers, Mehmed and Hamdija?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, are you the oldest of your -- of the three brothers in your

5 family?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Would you tell us who is the older brother.

8 A. Hamdija.

9 Q. And what year was Hamdija born in?

10 A. In 1958.

11 Q. And you testified that the year that Mehmed was born in is 1968.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, did all of your brothers attend school in Bjelovac like you

15 did?

16 A. I did and my older brother. Mehmed went to elementary school in

17 Fakovici and secondary school in Bratunac.

18 Q. Now, you've testified also that you served in the JNA, as many

19 people in your area did, and that in particular you were in the brigade

20 that was concerned with the mountains and the infantry. Could you just

21 explain to me a bit what exactly were your services when you were in

22 the JNA.

23 A. I personally served in the mountain infantry, and finally at the

24 time I served I ended up as a machine-gunner.

25 Q. Now -- excuse me. Someone who serves in the mountain infantry,

Page 10400

1 would that person have to have knowledge of mountain trails or mountain

2 paths or how to survive in a mountainous terrain?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And are these some of --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. All of this or -- because you put at

6 least three things in the same -- let's --


8 Q. If you could just specify a bit more clearly for Your Honour. So

9 we've talked about somebody having to understand -- have knowledge of

10 mountain trails. Is this among the things, the services, or things --

11 skills that you learned in the JNA?

12 A. Yes, I've learned quite a lot in the JNA.

13 Q. Explain to Your Honours then in terms of how to survive in a

14 mountainous terrain or your knowledge of mountain trails what it is

15 exactly that you learned in the JNA about that.

16 A. Even then when I served with the JNA we went on a track sometimes

17 up to 40 kilometres, sometimes even without food in order to be able to

18 survive anything. No one was hoping that this war was take place, but in

19 that way they were preparing us for any sort of future war and to survive.

20 That's the way the then-army helped us, and later on of course we were

21 fighting against it.

22 Q. Could you also explain to Your Honours then, you've mentioned that

23 not only did you have to learn to survive the mountains but part of your

24 JNA service included knowledge of artillery.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 10401

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to apologise to Ms. Sellers

2 for interrupting. I would like to correct the transcript. The witness

3 said at that time the army helped us and then it did everything in order

4 not to help us. And it wasn't specifically said that the witness said

5 later on we had to fight against it.

6 Did I understand you correctly, Mr. Tiro?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, yes. My apologies to you, Ms. Sellers.

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes, thank you, Madam Vidovic.

10 Q. Could you explain to Your Honours not only the skills you learned

11 concerning mountain survival but using artillery or, as you've testified,

12 a machine-gunner within the brigade that was learning the skills related

13 to the mountain? Did you learn how to use weapons in the mountain during

14 your JNA service?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please explain to the Trial Chamber the skills needed for using

17 weapons in mountainous terrains, the types of weapons, and the types of

18 things that someone in your position learned.

19 A. In mountain terrains and in the positions that are set up one

20 usually uses a machine-gun, a mortar, or a hand-held mortar. And all of

21 the soldiers are train in that, not to use just one piece of or type of

22 weaponry but several. And once the training is finished, and it was a

23 rather long one, it lasted for six months, they were all qualified to man

24 such weapons. One could learn where that type of weaponry originated

25 from, how it functions, and how it is to be used. We couldn't leave for

Page 10402

1 the mountains and take heavy artillery -- take guns with us or to have a

2 tank because the terrain was too steep, hence we had to use paths, trails,

3 and there is a reason and a justification for the type of weaponry used in

4 the mountains, and it's usually what you can carry on your back.

5 Q. So in the transport of weapons up mountain paths and trails, was

6 this part of the training that you learned when you were in the JNA?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, did that training also include the possibility of using

9 animals, such as horses, to take weapons up mountain trails or paths?

10 A. Yes, for the more heavy weapons.

11 Q. Now, would you tell the Trial Chamber, did you therefore have to

12 learn how to handle horses in their transporting or assisting you to

13 transport weapons within mountainous areas?

14 A. Yes. In mountain units, horses had to undergo training as well as

15 soldiers. And they were quite a help to the soldiers, otherwise all the

16 weaponry had to be carried on the soldier's back, including the mountain

17 devices for the machine-guns and so on and so forth. That's why we used

18 the horses; otherwise the lighter weapons could be carried on our backs.

19 Q. So would you agree that horses during a time of war were a

20 valuable commodity or means of transporting weapons?

21 A. Yes. It was worthier, or rather more valuable than an ordinary

22 soldier or any soldier for that matter.

23 Q. Now, did your brothers also do JNA service as they were growing up

24 close to the time period that you did your JNA service?

25 A. Yes. I served the military in 1980 and my brother in 1981, which

Page 10403

1 was somewhat late for his age. The younger brother did his service in

2 1986.

3 Q. So if I understand your testimony, that means that Hamdija did his

4 service in 1981. Is that correct, Mr. Tiro?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, what type of service did he do in the JNA?

7 A. He was in the communications centre.

8 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber what types of skills, if you

9 know, was he expected to learn by being a member of the communications

10 centre or in the communications centre training.

11 A. I can't explain to the Chamber his service. I only know that his

12 service was with the communications centre. I wasn't familiar with that

13 and I can't explain anything pertaining to his service.

14 Q. Just briefly coming back to your service within the mountain

15 brigade, did you have to, as related to fighting on a mountain terrain,

16 deal with the issue of communications also?

17 A. Yes. As an ordinary soldier, these were regular duties.

18 Q. Did that mean that you would learn how to communicate from one

19 mountainous terrain to another location or possibly another mountainous

20 terrain?

21 A. Of course. One wouldn't be a good soldier without having learned

22 those activities.

23 Q. I agree. And a good soldier -- well, maybe you could tell us, how

24 would a good soldier communicate under those types of conditions? And I'm

25 referring to conditions of being in the infantry, the mountainous

Page 10404












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10405

1 infantry, possibly during battle.

2 A. In the JNA we were taught, because such was the command, one

3 couldn't disobey an officer, just do what you were told and you had to

4 learn that. There was no one to defend a soldier at that time if he

5 disobeyed or said anything to an officer; he could only be sent to prison.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tiro. We'll come back to that, but I wanted to ask

7 you and maybe you didn't understand my question. When I'm speaking about

8 communications I'm speaking about Motorolas or hand-held radios or

9 RUP-12s. Did you know or have to learn about those means of communication

10 while you did your JNA service?

11 A. No. I wasn't forced to learn that. Just those soldiers who were

12 with the command post, and I was a regular soldier.

13 Q. Were you able to learn anything about couriers or the carrying of

14 messages in between units or groups while you were in your JNA service,

15 that form of communication?

16 A. No. The couriers were used for that.

17 Q. So were the couriers different and distinguished from members of a

18 unit or infantry group that were concerned with mountainous artillery?

19 Were the couriers a different group of soldiers?

20 A. Yes. Those were usually couriers attached to officers and they

21 didn't have anything to do with heavy weaponry.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you one or two other questions

23 about your JNA service, and the first is: Geographically where did you

24 serve, in what region of the former Yugoslavia?

25 A. I served in Pljevlja in Montenegro.

Page 10406

1 Q. And the other question I'd like to ask is that after you came out

2 of the JNA in 1980, did you ever use some of the skills, particularly just

3 the skills of going in and out of the mountains near your home or the

4 region where you lived, that you had learned in the JNA?

5 A. No. I didn't have the time for that because I worked more than

6 was necessary.

7 Q. Did you ever climb mountain trails during that time period or

8 possibly go to other hamlets or locations using back woods or back trails?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Tiro, in June 1992 you've been able to testify at the Tribunal

11 that there was increasing tension between Muslims and Serbs and that there

12 were conflicts in Bradjevina and Rakovici. I would like to ask you:

13 Prior to those conflicts what were your brothers, Hamdija and Mehmed,

14 doing in terms of the tension?

15 A. My brother Mehmed was with me. Hamdija was in Kosovo in a mine

16 called Kisnica there. He worked there. And I have evidence that he left

17 on the 6th of January of 1992.

18 Q. And when did he join you?

19 A. Never. I haven't seen him until this day.

20 Q. Now, you have testified that during the month of June that you

21 were not engaged in any way in any type of military formation. My

22 question to you is that did you participate in the village guards?

23 A. I can't actively participate in a village guard because I had no

24 arms. Had I had a rifle I would have participated.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, isn't it possible that you could bring information

Page 10407

1 about what was happening in your area to members who were armed, that it

2 wasn't necessary to have an arm to participate in the village guard?

3 A. To what units should I communicate such information because there

4 were no units in my surroundings, in the Muslim villages? There couldn't

5 be a unit without a rifle.

6 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'm not referring to units. I'm referring to villagers

7 who might have armed themselves to protect their homes.

8 A. I explained already. There was no point in transferring

9 information to the two people who had rifles in order for them to try and

10 save two or 300 houses.

11 Q. Well, Mr. Tiro, isn't it a fact that you did go around and you did

12 communicate information during that time period? You spoke to various

13 people, so you've testified, including Bosnian Serbs, as to the different,

14 from your testimony, build-up of Serb military. Isn't it true that you

15 did communicate information to people?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

17 never said that he transferred information. Rather, as far as I

18 understood it, he received information.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: He's being asked whether he transferred -- he passed

20 on information.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what he's being asked. There's no question

23 in asking him again to repeat that he received information. What he's

24 being asked is whether he passed on that information to others. As I

25 understand --

Page 10408

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If I misunderstand you, then please correct me.

3 MS. SELLERS: No, this is precisely --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no one for me to pass such

5 information to. The same way that such information reached other people,

6 it was the way that I would receive them.


8 Q. Mr. Tiro, how would you receive your information?

9 A. As part of my evidence here, it comes from me personally seeing

10 things and experiencing them.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. When he

12 says "I received information" we should be very specific as to the sort of

13 information, otherwise we confuse the witness. He spoke about the entire

14 spectrum of information here.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm going to specify this in the next

16 question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think the objection is quite pertinent and I

18 would suggest that you do, Ms. Sellers.


20 Q. Mr. Tiro, I just want to take you back to your testimony about the

21 school in Ruljevici. Do you remember your testimony there, concerning the

22 school?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you testified that you were at the house of a Serb

25 acquaintance, and you were able to observe what appeared to be men that

Page 10409

1 you recognised at the school in camouflage uniforms and with weapons. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Not in the house. I was in the field of this person called

4 Prokic, Zivko. And it was 20 metres away across the river and I stood in

5 the field and I was observing the school and the people.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. I saw you trying to stand up,

7 Ms. Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to raise an

9 objection. The Prosecutor asked the witness: "You were in the house?"

10 And the witness said that he was in the field. That was that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's --

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I do stand corrected. I did mean to

13 say you were at the home of and I didn't mean to be physically in the

14 house. I understand quite well.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's superseded now. I think that's

16 clear enough.


18 Q. Mr. Tiro, that you were standing behind a tree, if I understand

19 correctly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as you stated, you were about 20 metres away, and at that

22 distance there was a small stream or river in between the home of your

23 friend and the school. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. Between the school and the field.

25 Q. Now, could you hear the conversation of the men that were gathered

Page 10410

1 at the school?

2 A. I could overhear the conversation if they spoke more loudly at

3 times, but when they exchanged words between themselves I couldn't hear it

4 from the river.

5 Q. And as a matter of fact, what you could hear was when one of the

6 men refused to take a weapon, refused to carry a weapon that was given

7 him. Isn't that correct, Mr. Tiro?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that's because he shouted. He said something in a voice that

10 was louder than normal conversation. Isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The other conversation was not at the volume of someone shouting.

13 That's what I presume. That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Tiro?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, when you saw this event at the school, did that frighten you?

16 A. It frightened me a lot and I was sorry to have been there.

17 Q. And prior to coming there you had no knowledge that these types of

18 arrangements were taking place at the school. Isn't that correct?

19 A. I didn't know.

20 Q. And if I understand correctly, your friend didn't want you to stay

21 too long. There came a period when he asked you to please leave because

22 it might not be safe. Isn't that correct, Mr. Tiro?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And then did you leave his house or leave the area in front of his

25 house?

Page 10411

1 A. I left immediately and I couldn't go on my own but, rather, he

2 escorted me.

3 Q. Now, when you got back to the area near your home, Gornja Orlica,

4 did you then not tell anyone what you had seen?

5 A. Yes. I told the people of my village, in order for them to be

6 safer in a way, so that they wouldn't be caught by surprise.

7 Q. Understandable. Who did you tell, Mr. Tiro?

8 A. Who else but the people from the 18 villages that were in my

9 village. I couldn't go to other villages to tell people.

10 Q. So you communicated the information to them because you wanted to

11 tell them of a possible danger. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Because the entire village was actually one family.

13 Q. Did you then discuss with any of the villagers possible means for

14 protection or what they should do if the danger were to manifest itself?

15 A. Yes. I was telling them about the possibility of fleeing into the

16 woods, but otherwise we couldn't protect ourselves. We had no arms.

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, let me just ask you: In terms of the two people who had

18 arms in our village, would you please tell the Trial Chamber what their

19 names were.

20 A. Not in my hamlet but in the village of Zapolje, that's where the

21 two people with rifles were. But there were no arms in my hamlet of

22 Krnolica [phoen].

23 Q. I stand corrected. Please tell me the names of the two people in

24 Zapolje then.

25 A. Cazim Sinanovic was an active policeman, and Seval Husic, a

Page 10412












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10413

1 reserve policeman.

2 Q. And these were policemen attached to what police station?

3 A. Bratunac.

4 Q. And would you tell the Trial Chamber the weapons that they had --

5 yes?

6 A. Seval Husic had a semi-automatic rifle and Cazim Sinanovic an

7 automatic one.

8 Q. Mr. Tiro, were any of the members, and here I'll specifically

9 refer to the male members, in your village and the surrounding villages

10 members of the TO forces or reserve TO before 1992 or just up until 1992?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you a member of the reserved TO forces?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you or any of those other men in this area have any weapons

15 for hunting?

16 A. Nobody in my village. In Tegare about ten people did.

17 Q. And in the villages that were surrounding Tegare that you have

18 mentioned, are you -- is your testimony to the Trial Chamber that there

19 were no armed men in the Muslim villages?

20 A. No. Just the two in Zapolje. As concerns Gornja Orlica, my

21 hamlet, as well as Donja Orlica, the 30 houses, there were no arms there.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was a confusing one and

25 the witness misunderstood. When he said the villages surrounding his,

Page 10414

1 then he should say Muslim villages, Serb villages, or rather what villages

2 are in question because the witness doesn't understand the question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see how the witness could have misunderstood

4 the question because we've been talking about Muslims. So I would imagine

5 what Ms. Sellers has asked the witness throughout is she wants to

6 establish whether Muslims in the area were armed or not. So that's what

7 the witness ought to address.


9 Q. Can we just clarify that. Is that what you responded to,

10 Mr. Tiro, concerning whether the Muslim men had arms in relationship to

11 the questions I've just asked you?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And if we want to be more precise, in the Muslim

13 villages.

14 MS. SELLERS: In the Muslim villages, yes, the men in those

15 villages.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Or hamlets or whatever because I don't know what

17 they --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I replied just those ten hunting

19 rifles there and two in Zapolje. Around me in the Muslim villages, around

20 me there were no more rifles than that.


22 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Rifles or -- these are rifles or

24 shotguns or what? Because now we are using the word "rifles" and before

25 we were using "hunting."

Page 10415


2 Q. But if I understand your testimony correctly - and, Mr. Tiro,

3 please tell me if it's not correct - are you referring to rifles in terms

4 of the men in Tegare and then there were semi-automatic weapons in terms

5 of the two other men in Zapolje. Is that correct, Mr. Tiro?

6 A. A hunter did not take an automatic rifle when he went hunting, so

7 I'm thinking of a hunting rifle, a shotgun.

8 MS. SELLERS: Is that clear?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: A shotgun is not a rifle. I mean, it's -- I at

10 least -- from what I have learned they have never meant the same.

11 MS. SELLERS: Well, we're --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can have hunting rifles.

13 MS. SELLERS: Right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: A shotgun is a shotgun and a rifle is a rifle.

15 MS. SELLERS: We're going to ask Mr. Tiro, who has done his JNA

16 service, to enlighten us a bit.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: A rifle is a rifle because of the rifling inside the

18 barrel --

19 MS. SELLERS: The mechanism --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, the rifle, it's a grooving that they do, while a

21 shotgun is something completely different. The process of firing a rifle,

22 a bullet from a rifle is completely different from the process of firing a

23 cartridge from a shotgun.

24 MS. SELLERS: I stand educated, Your Honours. Let me just check

25 with Mr. Tiro.

Page 10416

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, are we talking about rifles, the two rifles in Tegare

2 and or are we talking about shotguns, or a combination of both?

3 A. It is a Sacmarica rifle. It's different. It's not hard

4 ammunition. You have buck shot and that rifle can kill as well, except

5 this one has more killing range. It's broader, whereas the combat

6 ammunition goes in only one direction.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. A shotgun spreads out and it spreads out

8 according to the size of the pellets that are contained, unless it's an

9 elephant shotgun where you have got one cartridge shooting one big

10 elephant.


12 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, if I understand correctly with the weapons that you

13 have just described, these weapons can be used both for hunting and in

14 terms of other forms of killing. Is this correct?

15 A. It was legally issued not to kill people but to go rabbit hunting

16 or to hunt other game. It wasn't for killing. It was something that was

17 legally owned. A person would receive a license for it. Not everybody

18 could be issued with such a rifle.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to know: How did you know that there

20 were ten of these rifles in Tegare? How did you receive that information?

21 A. It's a village right next to my village. It's close by. And I

22 knew people who would pass by on their way to go hunting by my house, I

23 knew these people.

24 Q. And isn't it information that in April 1992 through June 1992

25 became fairly important to know how many weapons or arms that the Muslim

Page 10417

1 population in this region had? You would agree with that, wouldn't you?

2 A. Yes. The Serbs were already asking about that and they were

3 ordering them to hand over these hunting rifles. But some people actually

4 just went to the woods and they didn't give their rifles in.

5 Q. You're talking about people other than the 12 people that we've

6 identified so far, or are you talking about those 12 owners of weapons?

7 A. About those people, those people.

8 Q. Okay, Mr. Tiro, I would like to ask you a couple of questions

9 concerning the beginning of July 1992. And there came a time, you've

10 testified, that you and members of your family went to Srebrenica. That

11 was after the 4th of July, I think around the 6th of July, 1992. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, did you walk to Srebrenica with your family or were you also

15 with other people going in that direction?

16 A. We didn't have any means of transportation. We walked.

17 Q. And if I remember your testimony correctly, you walked through a

18 dense wood or woods before coming to Srebrenica. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, were you leading your family or you and your brothers leading

21 your family through the terrain, including the woods, to get to

22 Srebrenica?

23 A. Not all of my brothers. One of my brothers and also my

24 brother-in-law. We took our family to Srebrenica.

25 Q. Thank you for the correction. Were you therefore leading them

Page 10418

1 through this terrain, including the dense woods?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And am I to understand that you knew about the woods or a bit of

4 this terrain before you led them through or you didn't know anything about

5 how to arrive in Srebrenica in that manner?

6 A. I wasn't there before. However, necessity makes one learn about

7 everything or necessity requires that a person gets acquainted with

8 everything.

9 Q. And at this point in time when necessity required your becoming

10 acquainted with this physical terrain, can I assume that you were able to

11 draw on some of the skills that you learned in your JNA service?

12 A. No. You don't need skills there. There's just fear and goodwill

13 needed.

14 Q. I agree with that, but what about in terms of walking through the

15 woods? Wasn't it your testimony that there were potentially or possibly

16 Serb forces in Spat that you had to go around -- I believe it was

17 Skenderovici to come behind Srebrenica in the woods?

18 A. I didn't even pass through Skenderovici. And it's not only Spat.

19 Pribicevac is also there. It's completely around Skenderovici. So I went

20 behind Skenderovici and through the woods and behind Pribicevac through

21 the woods in order to get my family to Srebrenica.

22 Q. Yes. And also in order to avoid being engaged by any hostile

23 fire. Isn't that correct?

24 A. Well, there's nothing to respond with. I didn't have ammunition.

25 I mean, I could only get killed. I had to pass in order to avoid them so

Page 10419

1 that myself and my family wouldn't get killed.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One thing, Ms. Sellers, that has been on my mind

3 since -- even since the examination-in-chief started: If you were not

4 familiar with that particular terrain and area, how would you find your

5 way? How would you know exactly which -- which trail to follow, which

6 direction to go? Were you carrying a map, a survey map, for example?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't have a map. I had an

8 idea more or less how to get to Zeleni Jadar and to Srebrenica, which road

9 to take. So it's the Bratunac and Srebrenica municipality. A person

10 couldn't really get lost there. I knew or we knew where the Serb villages

11 were.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 Yes, Ms. Sellers. Sorry to have interrupted.

14 MS. SELLERS: That's fine.

15 Q. Mr. Tiro, back to going towards Srebrenica, did you always stay on

16 the road except for the one time that you entered the woods or did you go

17 inside and to the forest alongside of the woods? Could you make that a

18 bit clearer for us.

19 A. From Mocevici to below Skenderovici, because Skenderovici is in

20 the hills. We -- so we took the road. Below Skenderovici we turned into

21 the woods and went through the woods all the way to Srebrenica.

22 Q. So am I to understand that between Gornja Orlica just to before

23 you get to Skenderovici that you were able to take the roads in order to

24 walk in the direction of Srebrenica?

25 A. Well, it's not clear to me how -- from Orlica. That question is

Page 10420












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10421

1 not clear.

2 Q. Yes. Let me rephrase it then. You and your family left from

3 Gornja Orlica. Is that correct?

4 A. From Gornja Orlica on the 12th of May.

5 Q. I'm sorry. I'm talking about the 6th of July, when you were going

6 towards Srebrenica.

7 A. On the 6th of July I set out from Mocevici.

8 Q. Yes, I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think --

10 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Could you explain describe the part of your journey - and thank

12 you for that correction - of when you were on the road or when you had to

13 leave the road and go into a different area, a wooded area, from Mocevici

14 on the way to Srebrenica, please.

15 A. Below Dimnici, perhaps about a kilometre away from there. I could

16 reach that part by road already from Dimnici. Below Dimnici behind --

17 after Pribicevac we went through the woods all the way to Srebrenica

18 because you didn't dare go out into the road.

19 Q. Now, the part of the road that you were able to travel on, was

20 that part of the road being shelled or did you see any weapons or hear

21 any -- or were you shot at during that part?

22 A. Yes. It was coming from Pribicevci and from Bezani also, but I

23 was never in Bezani. This is right off from Dimnici and Storeska from a

24 hill. That's why we had to move during the night to cover that part of

25 the road.

Page 10422

1 Q. So you were able to take the road down in night-time in the cover

2 of dark?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. And then you entered into the woods. Now, when you

5 went into the woods between -- below Skenderovici up to Srebrenica, did

6 you see other people in the woods?

7 A. Yes. There was a group of people there, those who were able to

8 walk. The elderly were not able to join them.

9 Q. And were you following a path in the woods or were you just going

10 through the woods where there was no indication or trails, paths, or roads

11 of any degree?

12 A. No, there were no paths. It was just the forest.

13 Q. Now, when you arrive in Srebrenica, you've testified that you were

14 able to find housing in Petrici, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, a

15 section of the city?

16 A. No, I didn't say Petrici. I said when we came down into

17 Srebrenica we came -- we reached Srebrenica at Petrici.

18 Q. And where did you find your lodging at, sir?

19 A. I passed through the centre of Srebrenica and I found

20 accommodation near the bus station.

21 Q. How did you find accommodation? Did you ask a person? Did anyone

22 inform you where it would be?

23 A. I asked a certain Amir Murathodzic and he told me, Here, you can

24 move into this house.

25 Q. Now, the house that you moved into I'm assuming it was an empty

Page 10423

1 house, that there was no one living in it at that moment?

2 A. Yes. Nobody was living there for a while.

3 Q. Was there a possibility of staying in any other accommodation or

4 other house or was this the only one that was indicated to you?

5 A. I didn't need to look at anything else. It was important to me

6 just to move somewhere. I wasn't looking for a large space or anything.

7 I had what I needed.

8 Q. You testified that there were other relatives that joined you,

9 lived with you, in that house at a later date. Would you please remind

10 me, what date did the other relatives join you?

11 A. After 15 or 20 days.

12 Q. Now, the house you moved into, you say that the man -- I'm just

13 trying to remember his name. He said that you could move in. Did he

14 indicate that you had to move into this house or there was no other

15 accommodation or was this just a helpful suggestion?

16 A. Just to help me.

17 Q. Now, were there other people coming into Srebrenica at that time

18 that were having houses indicated to them where they might move in?

19 A. Yes. People were arriving but later there was no need for anyone

20 to tell them where they could move into.

21 Q. Was that because they chose to move into certain houses on their

22 own, Mr. Tiro?

23 A. The authority was not functioning any longer. There were empty

24 houses. Everybody moved in in order to get their family inside so that

25 they wouldn't be left outside, and there was nobody who could prevent them

Page 10424

1 from doing that.

2 Q. Now, you stated that other members of your family joined you about

3 15 or 20 days later. Did you invite them to stay with you or did another

4 person indicate that they should stay with you?

5 A. No. I invited them. I wanted to shelter the children.

6 Q. And, Mr. Tiro, to your knowledge, was there any requisitioning of

7 household goods or materials from any of the apartments or houses in

8 Srebrenica that no longer had their owners, that were abandoned?

9 A. No, because there was nothing to be built. Those who stayed had

10 their own accommodation, their own things. I think that even in 1995

11 those things remained in Srebrenica.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, there may have been a

13 misinterpretation of the word "requisitioning." That's what I suspect.

14 At the time that Ms. Sellers is directing your attention to, she

15 is suggesting that there must have been some houses which were vacant.

16 The question is whether they were being sequestered, taken possession of,

17 and made available to those who needed accommodation. This is the

18 question that I understand Ms. Sellers as having put to you, but I don't

19 know whether it was translated -- yes, Madam Vidovic, if I am wrong please

20 do correct me.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

22 that the word be explained to the witness, the word "requisition" because

23 I think the witness who has only completed eight years of elementary

24 school can understand [as interpreted] this word.


Page 10425

1 Mr. Tiro, let me explain very briefly. In the concept of social

2 housing there is -- and especially in times of emergency, vacant houses

3 are taken possession of by the authorities, usually by the housing

4 department or whatever, social housing department, and made available to

5 those who do not have anywhere to live and who need accommodation.

6 Ms. Sellers is asking you whether at the time that you arrived in

7 Srebrenica there was such a system, however loose it may be, that was in

8 operation. In other words, would someone arrive in Srebrenica homeless,

9 without having a place where to go to and someone would come forward and

10 say, We have made available this accommodation or this house or this

11 apartment for those who are homeless? Was there anything of this sort

12 occurring at the time?

13 Are you happy with the explanation that I have given because I

14 don't think I can explain it more than that. I changed the word

15 "requisitioning" to "sequester," thinking that it may be probably

16 translated better, but I don't know if I have made myself clear to Mr.

17 Tiro. Have you understood me, Mr. Tiro?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. There was

19 nobody representing the authorities at that time, and there was no

20 authority at all when I came to Srebrenica so that nobody could mobilise

21 these facilities. The people moved in on their own to places that were

22 already empty.


24 If you want to proceed on this matter you are free to do so

25 because I intervened more or less, and I don't want you to think that I

Page 10426

1 was cutting you off.

2 MS. SELLERS: No. I just have a couple more questions concerning

3 this.

4 Q. I would like to know. You said that you -- you testified that you

5 spoke to Amir Murakovic?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Murathodzic.


8 Q. Did you know him prior to coming to Srebrenica?

9 A. No, I didn't know him. I only got to know him then and there.

10 Q. And is it your testimony that you met him when you arrived and he

11 offered or suggested that you move into that housing, those

12 accommodations?

13 A. I asked him -- I met him. I didn't know him, and I asked him if

14 there was any space anywhere where I could put my family. He looked at my

15 sister's two children and he said, Well, there's this house right here.

16 It's not much but you can move in for a time.

17 Q. And, Mr. Tiro, if I understand correctly, then the house you moved

18 into was near the centre of town?

19 A. No, it wasn't near the centre of town. It was a bit -- it was

20 near the bus station.

21 Q. Okay. And you met Mr. Murakovic - I'm sorry for my

22 mispronunciation - near the centre of town. Is that correct?

23 A. He also had a house that was right across the street from the bus

24 station.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Tiro --

Page 10427

1 MS. SELLERS: I have a couple more questions, Your Honour, before

2 we go to the break.

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, when your extended family, when your other family came

4 15 or 18 days later, did you have to or were you able to gather any more

5 blankets, bedding, or things that they might use while in the

6 accommodation?

7 A. Yes. They were people there from Srebrenica who helped us and

8 gave us bedding and bedcovers.

9 Q. Now, were these people who were acting individually? Were these

10 people that were acting as a community group, or were these people with

11 any other type of configuration?

12 A. These were things that we got from people of good will. There was

13 no organisation in this at all.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, you've testified that you've basically were born,

15 raised, in this geographical area of the Srebrenica municipality near to

16 Bratunac. Had you ever been to Srebrenica before this time period,

17 July 6th, 1992?

18 A. No. I wasn't born in the geographical area of the Srebrenica

19 municipality. I was born in the Bratunac municipality area.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's --

21 MS. SELLERS: I understand his confusion. Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. Had you ever been to the town of Srebrenica before this, before

23 July 6th, 7th, 1992?

24 A. In the 1980s I went to Srebrenica on one occasion, but it wasn't

25 on my way. I didn't pass through there whenever I went anywhere.

Page 10428












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10429

1 Q. And can I also ask you: Were you aware when you came towards

2 Srebrenica, and maybe one of your reasons for going there, is that the

3 town was still considered a safer town or a safe town for the Muslim

4 inhabitants of Srebrenica municipality or adjacent Bratunac municipality?

5 A. We didn't know but we decided to come to Srebrenica. Only later

6 when we arrived we saw that there were a lot of people there, so whatever

7 happened to them would happen to us. But there was never any talk about

8 going to Bratunac from the beginning of the war.

9 Q. So if I can understand clearly, it's your testimony that you went

10 to Srebrenica without knowing that Srebrenica had become -- the city of

11 Srebrenica had become a type of safe place or safer place for Muslims?

12 You didn't have that information?

13 A. No.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to stop my questions right

15 here, and I'm going to consult with my co-counsels to see whether I'll

16 continue this afternoon's -- for our next session or just re-commence

17 tomorrow morning, if you don't mind.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you need to -- do you want to consult now?

19 MS. SELLERS: Could I please do that now?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it would be better.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think we will continue and I will say

23 that possibly the next session just will not take the full 45 minutes or

24 it might. Okay.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 30-minute break and we'll restart

Page 10430

1 at 1.00. Thank you.

2 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, please go ahead.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Tiro, are you fine to continue?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. I'd like to go back to the topic that we were discussing

10 and it was about how you were living in Srebrenica. My next question,

11 Mr. Tiro, is just to confirm that you're unaware of any authorities that

12 existed in Srebrenica from July 1992 until what time period?

13 A. Allegedly, the authorities never existed or were never recognised

14 even in that period of 1995. There was no authority over so many people.

15 I could have placed myself in a position of authority but no one would

16 follow. And that didn't include just one municipality but several.

17 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, if I understand correctly, when you're speaking

18 about the authorities or the lack of authorities in Srebrenica between

19 1992 up until 1995, you're speaking in broad generalities comparing

20 Srebrenica and other municipalities like Bratunac. Is that what I'm

21 understanding?

22 A. Well, yes. The municipality of Bratunac, a part of the Visegrad

23 municipality, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Zvornik, all of the people were

24 there in Srebrenica, and there was no respect for authority. People were

25 fighting over food. The authorities would be of no help. If one

Page 10431

1 appointed oneself, no one obeyed. We were not interested in any sort of

2 authority, we were interested in survival only.

3 Q. Then let me ask you some specific questions. Would it be your

4 testimony that in 1992 in Srebrenica town when you arrived there that you

5 were unaware of any formation called a War Presidency or municipal

6 government?

7 A. It was there but I wasn't interested.

8 Q. Thank you. Now I understand more precisely. Can I ask you the

9 same question: Were you aware of any civilian police authorities?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And we've touched on it briefly, but were you aware of any types

12 of housing authorities?

13 A. It was impossible for any body of authority to exist and people,

14 as they came, tried to find their own accommodation. And there was no

15 such authority regarding houses, but there were no bans either. People

16 who were living there would allow people to move in to use a part of their

17 house in order for them to survive.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me continue a bit in this vein of questioning.

19 Were you aware of any military police authorities?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And were you aware of any military authorities located in the town

22 of Srebrenica?

23 A. No such organs were not in place, the military ones.

24 Q. Okay. Let me go back to what we've -- what you've testified about

25 it in terms of the War Presidency and I believe that you said that -- you

Page 10432

1 admitted that it might have existed, that you just were not interested in

2 it. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber when you understood me to

3 say "War Presidency" what that meant to you. Describe what a War

4 Presidency is for you.

5 A. A War Presidency, I guess that pertained to the municipality or

6 the building there. But I had no opportunity and I didn't want to go to

7 the building of the municipality and what people were doing there. I was

8 busy with my own life.

9 Q. Yes. You're referring to a physical building in the town of

10 Srebrenica, Mr. Tiro, when you're talking about municipality?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. So if I were to ask you whether you knew who was the

13 president of the War Presidency, could I assume that you wouldn't know

14 that person's name?

15 A. No. I didn't know people in Srebrenica. I wasn't interested in

16 finding out who was who or to learn their names.

17 Q. So you do not know Hajrudin Avdic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, you testified that you were unaware of any types of civilian

20 police forces. I'd like to ask you have you ever heard of the name Becir

21 Bogilovic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you aware that there was a SUP building, a building where the

24 police had been housed, prior to the war in Srebrenica?

25 A. I saw that building in passing and I saw that some people lived in

Page 10433

1 that house, in that building.

2 Q. Did you ever hear people speaking about any police activities

3 going on in that building, Mr. Tiro?

4 A. People were not talking about it. And had there been any police,

5 I must have seen it and I suppose they would wear police insignia.

6 Q. Mr. Tiro, if I understand correctly that prior to the war that you

7 were in the building trade, that you assisted in the construction of

8 buildings. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What types of construction projects were you involved in?

11 A. Anything that a construction worker could do or build.

12 Q. Would that include houses, public buildings, commercial buildings?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And also, if I remember your testimony correctly, that you

15 received training in this field and it appears that you practiced this

16 profession for a number of years prior to the war, at least ten years. Is

17 that correct, Mr. Tiro?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, did you work for someone else or did you have your own

20 construction firm?

21 A. I worked for other people.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He gave us this information yesterday.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, he gave us the name of a company. I'm

24 not quite certain what was his relationship.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he said that he worked with this company, and

Page 10434

1 then upon another question from Ms. Vidovic he also acknowledged that from

2 a certain time, 1988 if I remember well, he had his own company.

3 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Okay. Fine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But please go ahead because I may be mistaken.


6 Q. Mr. Tiro, could you just briefly explain that to us, in terms of

7 your years in your profession, your career, your working status as a

8 worker or as an owner.

9 A. I was a worker in a company. I wasn't an owner. As of 1988 I

10 started working by myself with a smaller group of people, not only in our

11 immediate area but all over former Yugoslavia.

12 Q. So you would travel certainly around the municipality of Bratunac

13 and adjoining municipalities as well as the entire former Yugoslavia. Is

14 that what I'm to understand by your testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in -- and in undertaking the work, whether it be as the worker

17 or as the owner in your smaller firm, would you at times be asked to do

18 repair work, to repair structures as well as building structures?

19 A. When I was employed with the company, this is what I was doing,

20 repairing buildings. I also constructed them. Later on when I left the

21 company, I mainly worked on family houses.

22 Q. And with your work on family houses, would that include putting in

23 windows, putting in doors, walls, all types of structures that are nascent

24 to a house in which people live?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10435

1 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, you testified that when you came to Srebrenica that

2 there was a time period when you were also engaged in building or

3 construction work. Would you just explain to the Trial Chamber what time

4 period are we talking about and what type of construction work were you

5 doing in Srebrenica?

6 A. Preparing houses, and when the Swedish project was underway in

7 Srebrenica, then I worked with the people from Sweden in Zeleni Jadar in

8 setting up building projects.

9 Q. Now, between July 1992, when you arrived, up until December 1992,

10 were you engaged in some construction work in Srebrenica?

11 A. I was only helping to those who needed some repair of a, say, a

12 room for them to be accommodated somewhere to survive.

13 Q. Now, just for a point of information, in your assisting or helping

14 of others, was this something that you did individually, voluntarily, or

15 is this something you did in an organised -- a more organised fashion,

16 possibly with other people who also knew how to -- who had that trade?

17 A. No. It was voluntarily. I went by myself and if somebody wanted

18 to join in, that was all right. But if one didn't want to there was no

19 one to force him. But people were helping each other because there was no

20 other way. It's better to help someone than to leave his family outdoors.

21 Q. I certainly agree. And I'm wondering, did you offer your services

22 to any type of authority that might be able to tell you which people or

23 where the construction should take place or where the materials could be

24 gathered for construction?

25 A. No. And I wasn't familiar with any such organisation or authority

Page 10436












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10437

1 that would have construction material. When I would see someone working,

2 I would approach and join in.

3 Q. Did you ever have people give you material that came from houses

4 in the surroundings of Srebrenica or from towns outside of Srebrenica?

5 Building material, I mean.

6 A. If someone had anything, they gave; if not, then it had to be

7 gotten from somewhere. That's as far as I know. But the people who were

8 initiating these repairs, but as to how they went about it I don't know.

9 Q. Did you yourself ever seek building materials outside of the town

10 of Srebrenica that you could bring back to Srebrenica to construct with?

11 A. Personally, no.

12 Q. Did you know people who did do that?

13 A. There were people who did that, but I don't know who the

14 individuals were because these were not people from my village or one of

15 the villages closer to mine. I didn't know someone from Zvornik, Zepa, or

16 Visegrad.

17 Q. And even though you didn't know them, the persons who might have

18 done that, do you know whether they went through the terrain between

19 whatever place or town that they got the materials from back to Srebrenica

20 not using the main roads?

21 A. There was no free town anywhere near Srebrenica. One could go to

22 the nearby villages and to use the main road or through the fields or

23 woods.

24 Q. Prior -- when you were in the construction business prior to the

25 war, did you ever have to make an order for timber to be cut in order to

Page 10438

1 have building materials?

2 A. Several times, and I still do that.

3 Q. And the area that the timber came from, was that within the

4 Bratunac municipality and the Srebrenica municipality?

5 A. That timber wasn't coming in during the war.

6 Q. And I certainly understand that. I'm speaking about prior to the

7 war, if I can just turn your attention there briefly.

8 A. We had a sawmill, a state-owned sawmill in the Bratunac

9 municipality.

10 Q. I would like to ask you also: In terms of living in Srebrenica

11 and doing this construction work, was there any type of informal market

12 place where one could exchange building materials for other building

13 materials, depending on what they needed?

14 A. No, there was no such thing.

15 Q. But I do understand that you did mention that there seemed to be

16 an exchange that could occur between people in Srebrenica as it related to

17 food. That was your testimony, wasn't it, Mr. Tiro?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I believe you've testified that on more than one occasion that

20 you took rakija, which is a plum brandy if I understand, and honey in

21 order to exchange it in this informal market in Srebrenica. Isn't that

22 your testimony, Mr. Rakija -- I'm sorry, Mr. Tiro?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness

25 never mentioned a market place. He did mention exchange or a trade off

Page 10439

1 but not a market place.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The question does not refer to a market place. It

3 says, at least according to the transcript: "In this informal market,

4 informal market," that's what we have in the English transcript. I don't

5 know how it was translated into Serbian.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It was interpreted as I said. That

7 confused me and it probably confused the witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it should be clear to the witness

9 now. We are referring to an informal market, informal bartering system

10 that is being suggested to you existed in Srebrenica. I hope I haven't

11 confused the matter further by using the word "barter."


13 Q. Mr. Tiro, can we just confirm that there was an informal exchange

14 in between people regarding food that we refer to here as a bartering

15 system or informal market.

16 A. Yes, there was exchange. If I say brought some rakija, I could

17 exchange it for flour or vegetables that I needed. If someone lived in

18 the country, they could bring some plums, apples, vegetables, and they

19 could exchange that for flour because nobody had any money to be able to

20 use it or profit from it.

21 Q. Now, was rakija a commodity that was fairly valuable on this

22 informal -- in this informal exchange situation?

23 A. Everything was of value, if there was any. That's the survival in

24 any which way possible.

25 Q. Well, I'm asking specifically -- I understand your response, but

Page 10440

1 I'm asking specifically for rakija because I understand on two occasions

2 that you took rakija and honey in order to use in the exchange. Is that

3 because it was a valuable commodity in particular?

4 A. No. That was the only thing I found. Had I found any flour I

5 wouldn't have taken rakija or had I found any grain.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Question -- I think again there may be a hitch here.

7 The question as I understood it is as follows: Was there a demand for

8 rakija in this informal market setting existing at the time in Srebrenica?

9 Was there a demand for rakija?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Rakija was not in demand, but

11 someone did need that as I needed wheat or flour or potatoes, whatever.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


14 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

15 Now, at times I imagine you would get wheat and flour for your

16 exchange of rakija or honey. Would you just tell the Trial Chamber where

17 this informal market place took place in Srebrenica, if anywhere.

18 A. One would go in the country trying to go through the free Muslim

19 villages because they did grow something, they sowed, harvested, a few

20 villages towards Suceska. And then one could trade with those people.

21 And sometimes they helped of their own accord without any exchange.

22 Q. So it's your testimony that this informal exchange took place

23 outside of Srebrenica within the Muslim villages when you would leave

24 Srebrenica and go to the villages. Is that what I'm understanding?

25 A. Yes, I would go to the free villages.

Page 10441

1 Q. Now, was there any place in Srebrenica in the city, in the town,

2 where people would gather to exchange food items?

3 A. Yes. There was a small one. It wasn't a market, it was just

4 simply a place on the street.

5 Q. Could you tell us in what part of Srebrenica that was.

6 A. It was up towards Petrici and Crna Rijeka.

7 Q. And did this take place in the morning or the afternoon of a given

8 day?

9 A. There was no specific time when the women had some cheese or soft

10 cheese, kajmak, to exchange for something, or milk. That's when they

11 would have these kinds of foods that were most likely to the exchanged in

12 Srebrenica where there were a lot of people who didn't have a cow or

13 anything. It was the only way that you could get some cheese, hard

14 cheese, soft cheese, milk.

15 Q. So if I understand you correctly, it was mainly the women who

16 would go to this place near Petrici to exchange the food?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And also, I'm assuming that you were also indicating that this

19 could take place on any day during the week and any time during the day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, you were in Srebrenica in the first two weeks of

22 August, weren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Between the 8th of August and the 15th of August, did any of the

25 women in your family tell you or did you come to know that the activity at

Page 10442

1 this informal market place increased because there was either a higher

2 level of food or just new items that had been brought in?

3 A. Nobody said anything like that and I didn't see that for myself.

4 I didn't have time to go and see what anybody in Srebrenica was doing.

5 Q. Because at this time period you were busy constructing the houses.

6 Is that the reason you couldn't go to the market and see whether new food

7 had arrived?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what the

9 witness said.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you repeat your answer, Mr. Tiro, please,

11 because the interpreters could not catch up with you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My previous answer, you mean?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I repeat to you the question that

14 Ms. Sellers -- and then you repeat the answer, please. "Because at this

15 time period you were busy constructing the houses. Is that the reason you

16 couldn't go to the market and see whether new food had arrived?"

17 And you gave a very short answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not because of the houses. I

19 wasn't interested actually in what was going on in the street. I had my

20 own problems regarding these exchanges and the market [as interpreted].


22 Q. Mr. Tiro, might I ask you what you're referring to --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I take it there has been some mistake.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honour. In

25 the transcript he said "I had my own problems even without this exchange

Page 10443

1 and the market."

2 Did I understand you properly?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It does make a difference.

5 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, for that. It certainly

6 does.


8 Q. Well, Mr. Tiro, can you ask you --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.


11 Q. -- how often, if at all, during July and August did you go to the

12 market place?

13 A. I never went there.

14 Q. Now, when you arrived in Srebrenica you arrived with some family

15 members who were women or girls. Did they ever go to the market during

16 1992?

17 A. No. I wouldn't even allow them to go there because it was

18 dangerous. A lot of shells hit Srebrenica.

19 Q. But you know of the existence and the functioning of this market

20 from information from whom, Mr. Tiro?

21 A. It wasn't a market place. I said it was a place just on the

22 street. A market is a market; that's something else. An open market

23 would have to have its stalls and things like that.

24 Q. Well, certainly we're not talking about that. We'll go back to a

25 place of exchange. But we're referring to what you testified previously

Page 10444












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10445

1 about that place of exchange. You heard about that or learned about its

2 existence and functioning from whom?

3 A. Who did I hear about it from? Well, I heard it from people. I'm

4 going there to exchange that for milk, to exchange this for cheese.

5 People would go and exchange that because that was the safest place you

6 could take cover behind the cultural hall and those other buildings there.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, to your knowledge was there a warehouse in

8 Srebrenica where food was stored or any place that was used, particularly

9 in July, August, September, October of 1992?

10 A. I don't know what kind of food would be stored and who would store

11 it when there was no food until humanitarian aid started reaching

12 Srebrenica and even that were small quantities.

13 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'm referring to any food that might have come in in the

14 intervening time, but let's go to the humanitarian aid. Would you agree

15 with me that that aid arrived in November or early December of 1992?

16 A. In late November.

17 Q. And were you present in Srebrenica when the aid arrived?

18 A. No. That was when I went to bury a relative of mine who was

19 killed.

20 Q. Had you heard that the aid was coming to Srebrenica at that time

21 period, prior to your having to unfortunately bury a family member?

22 A. No, we didn't know anything about that, that it would come and

23 when it would come.

24 Q. Well, if I understand you correctly, when you're saying "we didn't

25 know anything about that," are you referring to your family members, to

Page 10446

1 the extended family members, are you referring to the refugee population

2 in general didn't know that the aid was coming?

3 A. I cannot know what others knew. I am just speaking about myself

4 and my family.

5 Q. Were you aware that there had been demands made in Srebrenica for

6 humanitarian convoys to come with the welcome relief of food?

7 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't really involved in that or I

8 didn't think about that.

9 Q. Now, did any of your family members go down and physically receive

10 any humanitarian aid when it arrived?

11 A. No. What would they physically receive? This was distributed by

12 people. They all knew that they were entitled to receive a part of it.

13 Nobody took food from anyone else. There were people at the time who were

14 responsible for distributing this humanitarian aid to everybody equally.

15 Q. And your testimony is then that your family members or those

16 receiving this equal distribution were going to receive it after it had

17 been delivered in Srebrenica. Is that what I understand you to say?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer first and then we'll -- I know what

19 you're coming up with, Ms. Vidovic.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no family could receive it

21 before the humanitarian aid arrived. So when the humanitarian aid started

22 to arrive, that's when it was received.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this will assist the

25 Prosecutor also. Perhaps they could pose a simple question because when

Page 10447

1 the Prosecutor said "did the family physically receive it" in the spirit

2 of our language and I saw the witness understand it that way, it meant:

3 Did anybody seize it or grab it from somebody else.

4 Is that so, Witness?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So perhaps the Prosecutor could ask

7 a more simple question so that the witness could be and clear understand

8 it clearly.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]...

10 MS. SELLERS: I'm quite grateful.

11 Q. And I would never intend to mean that your family seized it in the

12 English sense.

13 Let me say did anyone in your family physically receive -- was it

14 handed to them willingly and voluntarily on the day or the time period

15 when the humanitarian aid arrived?

16 A. Yes, yes. It was given to them willingly and they of course

17 brought it home.

18 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber where was it in terms of the

19 place in Srebrenica that this humanitarian aid arrived, in what part of

20 the town?

21 A. To the centre, the centre of Srebrenica.

22 Q. And your family members were at the centre when it arrived or they

23 were informed that it had arrived and then proceeded to the centre?

24 A. No. They were all called. The people were called to come so that

25 they could receive food in order to survive.

Page 10448

1 Q. I see. Could you explain to me in what manner were they called,

2 meaning how -- what instrument was used to call them or was it -- how were

3 they informed?

4 A. I said before that a group was formed, a group of people who were

5 going to honestly distribute it to everybody. So those people called all

6 the people, not at once but according to a certain order so that everyone

7 received their share of the food.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tiro. That does clarify it for me.

9 MS. SELLERS: And my last question, Your Honours, for today is:

10 Q. This group of people that was formed were people who were in

11 Srebrenica, is this correct, prior to the convoy or the humanitarian aid

12 coming?

13 A. No, it wasn't only the people from Srebrenica who worked there.

14 There were people from Bratunac and Zepa who also worked there as well as

15 from Vlasenica. They put four or five people in charge of dealing with

16 that humanitarian aid so that everybody would receive an equal share.

17 Q. And when you refer to "they put the people in charge," who is

18 the "they," those who were responsible; do you know?

19 A. No, not that they were placed in charge but they kind of made

20 themselves, declared themselves as people in charge. I don't know who --

21 how this was formed. I mean, I myself didn't have the opportunity to go

22 to meetings or anything like that, so I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Tiro, you've been quite informative

24 today.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I have no further questions today.

Page 10449

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you very much, Ms. Sellers. We will stop

2 here for today.

3 Mr. Tiro, we will continue in the morning. In the meantime, take

4 good rest and make sure, please, that you do not allow anyone to

5 communicate with you on matters related to your evidence and that you

6 yourself will not try to communicate with anyone on the same matters.

7 Good afternoon to everyone.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

10 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.