1 Wednesday, 7 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Appearances. Prosecution.

15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Patricia Sellers

16 from the Office of the Prosecutor. With me today with co-counsels,

17 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager is

18 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. Good morning to our colleagues on the

19 Defence.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Sellers, and good morning to you

21 and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

24 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones we represent Mr. Naser

25 Oric. And we have our legal assistant with us, Ms. Adisa Mehic and our

1 CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

3 and your team.

4 Any preliminaries? None.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a piece of information that we have succeeded

7 in moving the sittings of the 27th and 29th of September from the

8 afternoon to the morning, and we would be sitting in Courtroom III, this

9 courtroom. However, we have not yet succeeded in moving the sitting of

10 the 28th. There may be a slight chance of moving it. I can't promise it.

11 What I can promise is that we will keep working on it.

12 So let's bring in the witness. I take it, Ms. Sellers, that you

13 anticipate to finish?

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I anticipate finishing possibly

15 towards the end of the second session and at very most --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time. I mean, it's -- we have a whole

17 day.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Tiro.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are continuing with the cross-examination this

22 morning. You're still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration, and

23 we hope to be able to finish with your cross-examination today, after

24 which there may be re-examination and possibly some questions from the

25 Bench. And you will then be free to go home.

1 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

2 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 WITNESS: HAMED TIRO [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tiro. I'm going to continue asking questions of

7 you today, and as we discussed yesterday please confine your answer to the

8 subject matter when yes or no is appropriate or if a longer explanation is

9 appropriate please give that type of answer.

10 I just wanted to finish up very briefly with any knowledge you had

11 concerning the humanitarian aid. We talked about how the aid was given to

12 the civilians who needed food. I'd like to ask you: To your knowledge

13 was any of the humanitarian aid given to fighters who were in Srebrenica?

14 A. I don't know which fighters were there. If a person wasn't in

15 uniform and I didn't see them with a rifle, I couldn't tell whether they

16 were a soldier or a civilian.

17 Q. Did you see any persons in Srebrenica in uniform?

18 A. No. I didn't see any in uniform in 1992. I don't know where they

19 would get a uniform from.

20 Q. So you saw persons in Srebrenica in uniform in 1993. Would that

21 be your testimony, sir?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he there in 1993? Because if I remember well --

23 when did he leave Srebrenica?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, my impression is in 1993 he was there,

25 and I believe Mr. Tiro testified that he then became a member of a unit.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ejub Golic's unit.

2 MS. SELLERS: In 1993.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 MS. SELLERS:

5 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, then you saw only persons in uniform in 1993. Is

6 that your testimony so I can be clear?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Okay. I would like to ask you then: Were you aware

9 of any canteen where soldiers or fighters would eat or be served food in

10 1992 or in 1993?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Always in Srebrenica.

12 MS. SELLERS: In Srebrenica, Your Honour.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was just a kitchen or a

14 canteen for civilians, for the infirm. And I could show you where this

15 kitchen was set up.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Would you please tell us where the kitchen was set up in

18 Srebrenica?

19 A. Near the department store, across from the -- the street from the

20 department store.

21 Q. Did you ever see persons eating at that canteen in 1993 who were

22 in uniform?

23 A. No, not at that canteen.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may react. The

1 witness said that in 1993 he went to Cizmici and that is not quite

2 Srebrenica.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that is correct. But when did he return to

4 Srebrenica to join Ejub Golic's unit? If it was in Srebrenica?

5 MS. SELLERS:

6 Q. Can we clarify. Were you in Srebrenica in 1993, in January 1993?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking this, Ms. Sellers, because I get the

8 impression that in 1992 he was there from July to December and then he

9 left.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would then like to clarify.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would like to know exactly if he did return to

12 Srebrenica, when he returned to Srebrenica. I think we need to clarify

13 that.

14 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: At least it's not clear in my mind. I may have

16 missed something, but it's not clear in my mind.

17 MS. SELLERS:

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, can you tell us whether you were in Srebrenica in 1993,

19 January.

20 A. Then I was -- actually later when I found the rifle I was in

21 Cizmici and that is in the Bratunac municipality. My family was in

22 Srebrenica, though.

23 Q. So you were not in Srebrenica in 1993. That's what we're just

24 trying to clarify. You were -- as of 1993, you were always in Cizmici and

25 the Bratunac municipality?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then we should only discuss your physical being in Srebrenica in

3 1992, if I understand correctly. Is that right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, you were just saying that the canteen was located in front of

6 the department store. Would I also be correct in assuming that in 1992

7 you did not eat in the canteen?

8 A. I personally did not. This was for the elderly and the infirm.

9 Those who didn't have anyone to cook for them or to bring food for them.

10 Q. Do you know how the canteen was able to provide food for the

11 persons, the elderly and the infirm, who did come there?

12 A. The kitchen was opened only after the convoys entered Srebrenica.

13 When the convoy arrived, that's when the kitchen was formed. It wasn't

14 there before the convoys.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Golic [sic], you testified that you joined

16 the unit of a man named Ejub Golic in 1993. You said in your testimony,

17 in your evidence, that you voluntarily joined the unit and you could have

18 chosen to join any other units but you joined Mr. Golic's unit. I would

19 like to ask you first: Had you heard of Ejub Golic in 1992 while you were

20 in Srebrenica or did you know him before?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I heard of him as a civilian

23 before the war, but I didn't hear about him forming a unit in the course

24 of the war.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood that the

2 witness answered -- actually that was the whole point of my objection. He

3 said something else. He said he meant -- he joined the group of people

4 with Ejub Golic; he didn't mention any unit. And this is all that I

5 wanted to clarify regarding the -- what the witness said.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please put the question whether it was a group or a

7 unit.

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, could you just give me one minute,

9 please?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If necessary, go to yesterday's transcript.

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I wouldn't know which part of the transcript

13 it is, but if you need a short break to go locate it --

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can assist. That's

15 on page 49, lines 1 to line 20.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday was the 6th, wasn't it? So let's go here.

18 I will read because we need to clarify this if it's being contested

19 because we need to clarify it now.

20 "Q. Now I would like to ask you something else." I'm reading

21 from page 49 of yesterday's transcript, line 5.

22 "Q. Now I would like to ask you something else. At the time when

23 you were in Kravica you found a rifle there. Did there come a time that

24 you joined a unit?" This is what we have in the transcript.

25 "A. Yes. A group of armed soldiers, yes.

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1 "Q. Which group?

2 "A. I joined the Cizmici with Ejub Golic.

3 "Q. Why?

4 "A. Well, out of my own free will.

5 "Q. Yes, you decided that, but why did you decide to join Ejub

6 Golic.

7 "A. Because I knew that man from before.

8 "Q. I would like to ask you this: How long did you spend in Ejub

9 Golic's group; do you remember?

10 "A. I spent a long time with Ejub Golic defending Cizmici.

11 "Q. During the time you were in that group, did you have contacts

12 with Mr. Ejub Golic, did you have personal contacts with him?

13 "A. Yes.

14 "Q. Did you have several contacts with him or not?

15 "A. Yes. We were in touch on several occasions."

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you continue -- tell us -- "do you have any

18 information about whether Mr. Ejub Golic and that group of people around

19 him considered anybody in Srebrenica as their commander? Was it stated

20 that there was a command in Srebrenica." And he answered in the negative.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the point I was referring to, and I see

22 Madam Vidovic on her feet, was on the following page, line 12 through

23 line 18.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll find it first.

25 I'll soon come to you, Ms. Vidovic, but let's finish. Line 12

1 and 13.

2 "Q. The fact that you went to Ejub Golic's unit, was that of your

3 own free will? Were you able to go anywhere or could you please explain

4 this to the Trial Chamber?

5 "A. Once I found the rifle I could go to any unit. It doesn't --

6 doesn't matter whether it was Ejub Golic's group or any other group. I

7 went to his group because he was -- he is from my municipality and Cizmici

8 were the only ones that remained in the Bratunac municipality."

9 Yes. Now, have you finished with your comment so that I give the

10 word to Ms. Vidovic?

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

14 the registrar to provide a tape for me because I'm absolutely sure that I

15 did not put the question in the way I would say "armed soldiers," I simply

16 wouldn't say something like that. But very well, the witness clarified

17 that. The answer he gave is very clear on that. So this is something we

18 can discuss later. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. I think it's a fair comment.

20 If you need to hear the transcript -- not the transcript, sorry, the tape

21 now, I think it can be arranged. It will be a matter of a few minutes and

22 we can afford to wait because I think we have ample time on our hands this

23 morning. So if you want to hear it now, we will do it now.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can do that after the session.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

3 Yes, Ms. Sellers, please take account of what Madam Vidovic has

4 said. And if you have further questions to the witness, direct them

5 accordingly.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Mr. Tiro --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. I still now have to -- and this is

9 where I make mistakes. All right. You can go ahead.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Mr. Tiro, you've heard us reading back your evidence from

12 evidence. Now, I want to go back to my question. What had you heard

13 about Ejub Golic that made you want to join his unit?

14 A. Not a unit, a group, because I knew the man from my municipality,

15 from before the war, and because he was in the Bratunac municipality.

16 Q. Now, you've mentioned the terminology group now as opposed to

17 unit, and I would just want to clarify when you're speaking about group or

18 your evidence, it clearly says "unit." Are you talking about fighters,

19 men who carried weapons, and men who engaged in fighting? Is that what

20 the group or unit that you're referring to did?

21 A. I don't consider them fighters. These were people who were there

22 to defend Cizmici and Becirovo [phoen]. That was the only village that

23 was at the entrance to Bratunac on the way to Srebrenica. So that village

24 meant for us that a few more people could seek shelter in the Bratunac

25 municipality.

1 Q. As a matter of fact, if I am correct, the group defended the free

2 territory and held the front line. Would you agree with that, Mr. Tiro?

3 A. It wasn't the front line. These were just people guarding these

4 villages and they were in shelters, but the front line is waging war and

5 actions and so on.

6 Q. Were you defending that territory in Cizmici?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at this time you were able to have a weapon to assist you to

9 defend the territory. Is that correct, Mr. Tiro?

10 A. Yes, I did have weapons when I joined the group.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic -- Madam Sellers. We'd like to

12 know where Cizmici is, if perhaps the witness can indicate it on the map

13 for us.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have the Defence map 727.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean, I can lend you -- usher, you can have

16 mine and all we need is for him to point it out. Thank you. It must be

17 near Bratunac, no? Something like that? If it's not on the map -- I

18 thought so.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation].

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, could I clarify. Is it physically on

21 the map or just too small, because as you explained yesterday some towns

22 don't appear.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Would it be further up from Bratunac? Is it outside

24 this map, in other words?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the Bratunac area and it's

1 close to Glogova, and I believe that that is not on the map at all.

2 However, Mr. Tiro, would you please check. I think that that is

3 quite far from the spot. I don't think the witness can see it. I don't

4 think it's on the map.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Is it a small village, Cizmici, or how big is

6 it? Mr. Tiro can tell us.

7 How big is the village of Cizmici?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Cizmici had no

9 more than 14 or 15 houses. It's a very small village.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I will ask the question again. I just want a

12 confirmation of it. Why was it so important to defend Cizmici if it was

13 only a village of 14 houses?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the only place to find

15 shelter for the people from Bratunac and the surrounding areas.

16 MR. JONES: Yes, if it assists, Your Honour, we have a map where

17 Cizmici does appear.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to see it, Judge Eser?

19 No, it's okay. I thank you for your assistance, Madam Vidovic and

20 Mr. Jones. Yes --

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It does call up a lot of question marks. Like if

23 you are defending a village of 14 houses, do you really need a unit? How

24 big was this unit, if it was a unit? I don't know.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just like to ask a couple more

1 questions and we might want to see the Defence map that is larger.

2 Q. Mr. Tiro, then Cizmici is near the town of Glogova, and are you

3 familiar that Glogova in May 1992 was the scene of action where Muslims

4 were expelled?

5 A. Yes. I heard that but I really couldn't cross into Glogova.

6 There was no access to Glogova.

7 Q. And on the map that you have that is a bit inadequate for our

8 purposes, would you agree that Glogova lies further to where I would be

9 calling the north-east above Bratunac on this map. Is that correct?

10 North-west.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In the direction of Kravica.

12 MS. SELLERS: Yes, as a matter of fact, I was going to suggest

13 isn't it in between Bratunac and Kravica?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's in the valley, however. Right? And Jezestica

15 and that area.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Glogova is linked

17 to Kravica.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Right. And are you familiar with any action done on the 24th of

20 December, 1992, in Glogova?

21 A. I couldn't know it at the time.

22 Q. Well, did you become familiar with that in 1992 or did you become

23 familiar with it after 1992? And then please tell the Trial Chamber what

24 you mean by "I couldn't know it at that time."

25 A. Because we had no access to Glogova and I didn't turn back to

1 investigate what was going on at either Glogova or Kravica or any other

2 Serb village. It was far from my mind.

3 Q. In 1993, Mr. Tiro, after you'd gone to Kravica, did you then, when

4 you'd joined the unit, come to understand the fighting that had taken

5 place at Glogova and the villages in that area of Bratunac?

6 A. When I joined the unit, or rather the group, because a unit cannot

7 be made up of 30, 40, or 50 people. A unit means that you must have a

8 battalion and a brigade.

9 Q. So what qualification would you give your group in a military

10 sense if "unit" is improper?

11 A. This is a group of people, a group of volunteers, that was set up

12 to defend themselves, because not a unit. I mean, a unit can be in a

13 division, a battalion, a brigade, whatever. Because now it would almost

14 appear as if we had divisions of military strategists in Bratunac or

15 Srebrenica.

16 Q. And to your knowledge that didn't exist, right, military

17 strategists or any type of formation of that extent. Would that be your

18 testimony?

19 A. The question is unclear.

20 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Tiro. Let me try and rephrase that.

21 From what you have just said that if you had a unit or a

22 battalion, it would almost mean that we had strategists and that we didn't

23 have that in Bratunac or Srebrenica, and I am paraphrasing a bit. So then

24 I asked you that therefore, to your knowledge, what you knew, military

25 strategists or types of formations such as brigades, battalions, did not

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1 exist in Srebrenica. That's what your testimony is?

2 A. Yes. I myself never knew about it.

3 Q. Okay. Can you just tell us then how many men were within your

4 group or the group of Ejub Golic's men that you considered yourself a part

5 of?

6 A. The last time I was there myself with them, between 40 and 50

7 people were defending that village, the locals from that village, and then

8 from Glogova there was myself and my five cousins.

9 Q. And were these some of the cousins or relatives who had moved to

10 Srebrenica with you in the summer of 1992?

11 A. Yes. In the course of the summer of 1992, those who came to

12 Srebrenica.

13 Q. And by 1993 when you were within this group along with your --

14 some of your relatives, wasn't it true that Kravica was now within the

15 hands of Muslim fighters, and that Glogova was also back within the hands

16 of the Muslim population, and that that consisted of part of the line of

17 defence, the territory of Srebrenica?

18 A. I myself wouldn't be in a position to confirm that Kravica was in

19 Muslim hands because those of us who were at Cizmici couldn't even get

20 through because there was the demarcation or the division line between

21 Cizmici and Glogova. And that territory was held by the Serb army from

22 Bratunac.

23 Q. So then after December of 1992, are you saying that the Serb army

24 held Glogova or am I misunderstanding?

25 A. You misunderstood, Madam. They held the territory of Zvijezda.

1 That was the name of the area.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I ask the witness just to see our

3 map P450 so we can be absolutely clear, and I'll move on from that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Perhaps I can get my map back. One of the

5 things that you can -- whether he is aware at any time Glogova was

6 recaptured or retaken by the Muslim -- by the Muslims, let me not use

7 forces or whatever, whether he is aware of that and if he is aware of it,

8 when according to him did it happen. Because I think it will clarify,

9 help to clarify, a little bit the position at the moment which is to my

10 mind a little bit unclear.

11 MS. SELLERS: Right.

12 Q. Mr. Tiro, you've heard Your Honour's questions. I wonder if you

13 could answer them, if you're aware of when Glogova was in the hands of the

14 Muslims and when did you learn that?

15 A. I don't know when that would have happened because I was at

16 Cizmici, but I don't know about Glogova having been in Muslim hands

17 because otherwise there would have been people from Glogova there. People

18 from Srebrenica would have had no need to go and defend Glogova. Because

19 after Kravica everybody withdrew, the civilians withdrew to Srebrenica

20 from Konjevic Polje and Cerska and Glogova. And they all withdrew, some

21 in the direction of Srebrenica and others in the direction of Cizmici.

22 Q. So you were unaware in 1992 and 1993 that Ejub Golic was one of

23 the fighters or heroes that had retaken Glogova for the Muslims. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. No, Madam. He wasn't a hero, he wasn't an outstanding fighter

1 either, and he never took Glogova at the time when I joined his group of

2 people because otherwise I would have been involved in that action.

3 Q. Thank you. I understand. Could I just ask you to look at the map

4 so that we can precisely --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. In the meantime, let me hear Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we clarify. The

7 witness gave a very clear answer to the fact that when he was at Glogova,

8 Mr. Golic didn't take Glogova. And he did not refer to the period of time

9 before he got to Cizmici.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood it.

11 When did you actually join Ejub Golic's group?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As soon as I found the rifle at

13 Kravica.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In January, mid-January.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: In January of 1993?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

19 MS. SELLERS:

20 Q. Mr. Tiro, your testimony was that you joined the group a couple

21 days after you found the rifle in Kravica. So can I safely suggest that

22 it was around mid-January 1993?

23 A. Yes, that's what I said.

24 Q. Now, could you please show us on the map that's provided in front

25 of you where Cizmici is located.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the map has to be moved in the direction of

2 Kravica. Further up. We need -- no, Bratunac must go to the left side of

3 the screen. No, that's going -- taking it to the right. Sorry. Yeah,

4 yeah, yeah. It's the opposite. But it's not clear. I mean, I can't even

5 distinguish one name on this map. I think I would rather -- I would

6 rather rely on the map that Ms. Vidovic or Mr. Jones volunteered to us

7 earlier on because I don't think that this is going to help us much.

8 We need to move where Bratunac is to the right of the screen,

9 please. I can't see it. I see Zvijezda but it should be near. Move it a

10 little bit further to the right, please. Yeah, to the right, to the

11 right, to the right, to the right. Now we see Jezestica, the Glogova

12 Valley, and that is -- again further to the right, please. And it should

13 be somewhere here where you see Siljkovici and --

14 Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: I'm happy to put that on the ELMO. I just would ask

16 for it not to be marked up because it's my copy.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not. I mean, of course not.

18 MS. SELLERS: I'm most grateful to our learned friends. I think

19 it's just for illustration.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I doubt whether it is on this map, I doubt

21 it, because we are in the area definitely. Yes, there it is. All right.

22 MS. SELLERS:

23 Q. And about how many kilometres is --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Glogova --

25 MS. SELLERS:

1 Q. -- is Cizmici from Glogova, please? If you know, Mr. Tiro, could

2 you inform us.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if we could put down the map, further down,

4 please, a little bit. No, no, that's further up. Okay. Thank you. So

5 we'll get an idea of Bozici. All right. I thank you, and I thank you,

6 Mr. Jones as well and Madam Vidovic of course. Let's continue.

7 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, I had asked you earlier in recounting your

9 testimony that you said that you voluntarily joined Mr. Ejub Golic's unit

10 or group and you could have joined any other. What other groups are you

11 referring to that you could have joined at that time?

12 A. Where the people meet, people who have arms -- well, they could

13 have set up a group. It didn't matter whether it was myself or another

14 person altogether. We could set up a group and go where we pleased.

15 Q. So you're talking about any other groups of defenders, if I

16 understand correctly?

17 A. Of course. As soon as you have a person defending their land,

18 their part of that land, they can be considered as defenders.

19 Q. And you're speaking about any other groups that might have had

20 persons in them who were armed in order to defend their land or their

21 area?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, did you know of any other groups that had armed persons who

24 were defending areas when you were in Srebrenica in 1992 or into the

25 beginning of 1993?

1 A. I wasn't even interested in that in the course of 1992. I didn't

2 find anything out about that and I didn't even know any people from

3 Srebrenica because Srebrenica is quite a long way away.

4 Q. But when you were in Srebrenica in 1992, did you ever hear about

5 Zulfo's men, for example, as a group? Or Akif Ustic's men?

6 A. Zulfo is not from Srebrenica, he is from Suceska. And I found out

7 about Zulfo perhaps even after 1995. And that man called Akif, I never

8 knew him.

9 Q. All right. Mr. Tiro, what I'm trying to understand is that you

10 referred in your testimony to other units, even if we allow that now your

11 testimony has changed and you want to refer to other groups. What groups

12 would you be speaking about?

13 A. There can be a group of any people, but it's not a unit. Because

14 I'm trying to explain that I myself as soon as I had a rifle could have

15 set up a group around me, a group of volunteers. We could have agreed to

16 go to a certain part of the country to defend it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut this short, Ms. Sellers.

18 MS. SELLERS: Fine, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry anymore about the word "unit" or whether

20 any of these possible groups that may have existed were units or not. The

21 question that is being referred to you is simply whether you were aware of

22 any other groups of armed men or armed people at the same time or before

23 or after you joined Ejub Golic's group. Were there -- because yesterday

24 you said you choose -- you could have gone to other groups but you

25 choose -- you chose Ejub Golic's one. The question that is being put to

1 you: Which were the other groups that you knew of at the time? Forget

2 units, we are not talking about units.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did not know

4 the people from Srebrenica. Of course there were people who had rifles,

5 and I could have gone up to any man, whether it was in Suceska or Potocari

6 or perhaps Srebrenica or Cizmici. That means that there were groups of

7 people, but I myself decided for Ejub Golic's group.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not putting any further questions. It's your

9 cross-examination, Ms. Sellers.

10 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have one other -- a

11 couple other questions in this area --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

13 MS. SELLERS:

14 Q. And then, Mr. Tiro, we're going to move on.

15 You were asked around that same time in the direct examination

16 about having contacts with Ejub Golic, and you answered that you had been

17 in touch with him on several occasions. And then you were asked by Madam

18 Vidovic: "Tell us, do you have any information about whether Mr. Ejub

19 Golic and that group of people around him considered anybody in Srebrenica

20 as their commander? Was it stated that there was a command in

21 Srebrenica?"

22 And you answered: "No."

23 And then you were asked the question: "Was this command in

24 Srebrenica mentioned at all to you in any way?"

25 And you responded: "No."

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1 My question to you is: In 1992 when you lived or stayed in

2 Srebrenica, did you have any knowledge of any command or command

3 structures?

4 A. I knew of no command whatsoever, as I've told you. Everybody went

5 to defend that part of the country and defend the people, protect the

6 people, in their own way.

7 Q. And as a member of Ejub Golic's group or unit, you were unaware of

8 any command structure that might be over Mr. Golic's head. Is that your

9 testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But there's a possibility that Mr. Golic was under command but you

12 just don't know about it. Isn't that correct?

13 A. All I can say is that nobody could have issued orders to Ejub

14 because he had his own principles and nobody could order him around or

15 issue any orders or commands to him.

16 Q. Okay, Mr. Tiro, I imagine you're talking about his principles of

17 integrity and personality, but I'm asking about a possibility of military

18 command. And I put it to you that you might not have been in a position

19 to know who could have militarily command or give orders to Mr. Golic.

20 Doesn't that possibility exist?

21 A. I'm giving clear answers to the fact that I myself never heard

22 about it, never knew about it, and I believe that this man could not have

23 been under anyone's command.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be

25 shown -- excuse me one moment.

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that the witness be

3 shown P158.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you need any further the map that has

6 been made available by Mr. Jones?

7 MS. SELLERS: No. I thank the Defence. I don't think we will be

8 using it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, perhaps you can hand it back to the Defence.

10 MS. SELLERS: I understand that this is on Sanction.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. Once more, thank you, Mr. Jones.

12 MS. SELLERS:

13 Q. Mr. Tiro, would you please read the paper that's been placed in

14 front of you. And I would particularly draw your attention to the date,

15 the 24th of December, 1992, and where it says "order." And in the English

16 translation that I have it says that the "Glogova Independent Battalion

17 shall be formed of conscripts from the Glogova general area.

18 "I hereby appoint Ejub Golic commander of the Glogova Independent

19 Battalion.

20 "This order is effective immediately and shall be effective until

21 a new order is issued."

22 And then it says "commander of the Srebrenica armed forces," and

23 the name of Naser Oric. Now, were you aware of this particular command

24 structure between Naser Oric and Ejub Golic when you were in Srebrenica or

25 after you joined Mr. Golic's fighting men?

1 A. No, Your Honour. Because this could have been copied in 1995.

2 This document could have been copied then. I saw Naser Oric in Srebrenica

3 only once and that was when I worked at the hospital.

4 Q. And, Mr. Tiro, it's because you've never seen this document before

5 or because you only saw Naser Oric once that you're saying that this

6 possibility does not exist?

7 A. Not because I saw Naser Oric once or because I saw this document,

8 because I've proven quite clearly that nobody was in a position to issue

9 orders or command Ejub Golic because this group was not set up in

10 Srebrenica but in Bratunac. And these are two different municipalities

11 and nobody could issue orders to him in Bratunac.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one detail that

14 Mr. Tiro said and it did not get into the transcript. He said these

15 documents could have been copied by Serbs in fact in 1995. And we don't

16 see it in the transcript.

17 Am I correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Tiro, is Madam Vidovic correct?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 Yes, Ms. Sellers. One thing: I don't -- Mr. Jones and Madam

23 Vidovic, I don't want any comments or statements with regard to any of the

24 documents that we may be seeing in the presence of the -- of the witness.

25 All right. It's a question of -- you understand what I am referring to?

1 If you need -- if you need to remark something to the Trial Chamber,

2 please tell us so and we will do it in the absence of the witness. You

3 understood me completely?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. This was

5 just a correction for the transcript because we heard the witness say that

6 word.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It was important. That's not what I mean.

8 Ms. Sellers, you may proceed.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Mr. Tiro, just to make sure that I understand your point, it's

11 because persons from different municipalities such as Mr. Golic from

12 Bratunac and Mr. Oric from Srebrenica could not have any military --

13 intervening military structures; one couldn't command the other. That's

14 your answer in terms of why you don't believe that this document speaks

15 the truth. Right?

16 A. Not only that Naser and Ejub could -- or Zulfo or Akif could have

17 been in command. I mean, people were simply -- all of them doing their

18 job, and I cannot say here this person was my commander or that person was

19 my commander. Because I personally, when I joined this group I didn't

20 consider Ejub to be a commander either. He couldn't make me go to defend

21 this village of Cizmici if I didn't want to do it of my own free will.

22 Q. But you do agree that people from Bratunac municipality -- let me

23 rephrase. Not people, that Muslims from Bratunac helped Muslims from the

24 Srebrenica municipality during this time period in 1992 when they were

25 being confronted by forces from Serbia and Serbian forces in their own

1 territory. They did assist each other, didn't they?

2 A. These are two municipalities that border on each other. And there

3 were people from Bratunac who were in Srebrenica before me.

4 Q. And they helped each other, didn't they, Mr. Tiro?

5 A. Not that they helped, but everybody went in their own way to

6 defend the place. They had their families there. Some people went with

7 just their bare hands.

8 Q. Yes. And don't get me wrong, correctly so, they defended the

9 territory together. That's all I'm asking you, Mr. Tiro, and I think with

10 that you would agree. Right?

11 A. Of course we were of help to Srebrenica because we were in Cizmici

12 and that borders on the Srebrenica municipality. Therefore, we were of

13 immediate help to Srebrenica.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Now, Mr. Tiro, I'd like to move into a

15 slightly different area, and I'd like to take you back to August 1992.

16 You've testified that you, your brother, your brother-in-law, and I

17 believe Hamdija Hazic went back through the woods to gather food in our

18 village. Now, I need to ask some questions about that, and I understand

19 that that's a very difficult time period for you because injuries were

20 sustained and your brother-in-law was killed. Would you please tell me

21 whether at that time period in August 1992 that whether any of you had

22 guns with you when you went back into what was essentially unsafe

23 territory?

24 A. Weapons, no. Because had I had weapons at the time I would have

25 joined some group of people immediately, had I had a weapon.

1 Q. Well, I understand you didn't have any weapon until you went into

2 Kravica, but what about your brother, your brother-in-law, or the other

3 man who was with you?

4 A. No, none of them.

5 Q. In your testimony you testified that there was a horse. And I'd

6 like to know: Did you take the horse from Srebrenica or did you come into

7 possession of this horse after you had returned to your village?

8 A. No. I took the horse from Srebrenica, and I can also give you the

9 name of the person who I took it from.

10 Q. Yes. Could you please give us the name of the person who gave you

11 the horse for that purpose.

12 A. It wasn't a man; it was a woman. Abida Omerovic.

13 Q. And your intention to take the horse I assume was for carrying

14 food back to Srebrenica or was it just for the transport of you going to

15 the village?

16 A. No. It was for food so that I could bring food to her as well -

17 it was an elderly woman - as well as to my family.

18 Q. Now to your knowledge, did people often take horses with them when

19 they were searching for food outside of Srebrenica?

20 A. Well, those days of course it was the easiest thing to take a

21 horse through the woods to make it easier for yourself to carry the load.

22 Q. When you were going back to Gornja Orlica, you testified that you

23 were there for two days. And I'd like to understand, did it take you two

24 days to get there or did you stay there for two days after arriving?

25 A. On the way to Orlica that was one day then a day in Orlica to

1 gather, collect the food, and then the third day I came back.

2 Q. Now, you didn't just go to Gornja Orlica, you also went to

3 Ruljevici, didn't you?

4 A. On the way back from Orlica I went to Ruljevici because it was

5 closer that way to get to Mocevici.

6 Q. Did you know whether Ruljevici was still a place where there were

7 Serbs or weapons any danger that could be presented to unarmed men?

8 A. Where I was I didn't actually enter the village. This was a field

9 at the entrance to the village and it was close to the woods.

10 Q. So this was actually a shortcut through the woods. That's the

11 reason you chose to go to Ruljevici. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you've testified about what happened when you and your

14 brother-in-law and your brother and Hamdija were ambushed. When you were

15 able to escape the next day, did you take the horse back to Srebrenica

16 with you and the food?

17 A. Well, I couldn't drag it with me because they had killed it.

18 Q. So you just took the food with you. Would that be correct?

19 A. I didn't even manage to get the food. However, during the night I

20 managed to get the body of my brother-in-law out of there so that I could

21 bury him.

22 Q. Yes, and you've testified to that in fulfilling your duties. I

23 want to know: When you came back to Srebrenica, did you inform anyone of

24 what had happened to your brother-in-law, your brother, yourself, and

25 Hamdija? I'm not speaking about your family. Did you inform anyone,

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1 authorities or officials or tell other people?

2 A. Who would I inform when I wasn't even aware that there was any

3 authority, and had there been any authority, what could they have done?

4 The authorities didn't even dare go to their territories.

5 Q. Did you tell any of the units that might be interested in

6 defending those areas or the groups of people who were armed who were

7 interested in defending, did you give them this knowledge that there were

8 armed men that you had encountered?

9 A. There was nothing that I could tell groups of people. I entered

10 the Srebrenica territory where I didn't know any people. There was

11 nothing to say to anyone. It was just a pain that stayed with me and my

12 family.

13 Q. Mr. Tiro, that I understand but I need to ask a couple questions

14 related to the incident. Well, there came a time when you were able to

15 speak to your brother about what had happened. And I believe that you've

16 testified that he had been captured and he was asked questions about what

17 units were in Bradjevina.

18 A. Yes, but only 1999.

19 Q. Yes, I understand that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. The

22 Prosecutor is interpreting the witness's testimony wrongly. He didn't say

23 that he was questioned about which units existed in Bradjevina but who of

24 the Muslims participated in the attack on Bradjevina, which is something

25 else.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: From what I remember, Ms. Vidovic is correct,

2 Ms. Sellers.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I don't mind rephrasing the question.

4 Q. Mr. Tiro, yes, the question would then be: Which Muslims

5 participated in the attack on Bradjevina. You would agree with that,

6 wouldn't you?

7 A. Well, I cannot give you the names of a thousand civilians. Out of

8 them I only know Vekaz Husic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: His -- I don't think he understood you. Let's take

10 it one question after the other.

11 Ms. Sellers would like to know -- Ms. Sellers would like to know

12 from you when you spoke with your brother Mehmed whenever it was, what did

13 he tell you he was questioned about when he was captured? What was he

14 questioned about, as he told you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he was questioned

16 about which people attacked Bradjevina and whether he participated in that

17 with these people. They asked him who had killed Slavko Jovanovic. My

18 brother perhaps didn't even know this Slavko.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sellers, then you can proceed.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He did mention -- the name of some particular

22 person. I don't know in which context exactly, but it seems that he

23 mentioned the name of this person in connection with whatever happened in

24 Bradjevina.

25 Is that correct? Did I hear you mention the name of a particular

1 person?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can explain and then we can move to any

4 further questions that you may have.

5 MS. SELLERS:

6 Q. Mr. Tiro, would you respond to Judge Agius and explain who was the

7 person that you mentioned, Slavko Jovanovic. I believe that you --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, it's not -- let him answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Slavko Jovanovic, Stanisa

10 Stevanovic asked about him, that he should tell him who killed Slavko

11 Jovanovic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

14 MS. SELLERS:

15 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, you stated a couple minutes ago that --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I am not dreaming. Did you -- I

17 just saw it -- you asked the witness this question. "Mr. Tiro, yes the

18 question then be: Which Muslims participated in the attack in Bradjevina.

19 You would agree with that, would you?"

20 And he said: "Well, I cannot give you the names of a thousand

21 civilians. Out of them I only know Vekaz Husic."

22 Did you mention that Vekaz Husic or something similar to that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you finish that sentence or finish that

25 statement, please.

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. I believe Your Honour would like you to finish the statement about

3 Vekaz Husic. You were about to say something about him?

4 MS. SELLERS: Well, Your Honour, could I just ask --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's just that I don't like to have an unfinished

6 statement.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Mr. Tiro, wasn't it Vehid Husic who gave you the information about

9 the attack in Bradjevina?

10 A. Madam, it's not Vehid, it's Vekaz.

11 Q. Vekaz?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not the first time Ms. Sellers has

14 mispronounced the names of places and people, and she's not the only one.

15 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

16 Q. Will you tell us whether that prior to -- well, the information

17 you received about the attack in Bradjevina came from Vekaz Husic?

18 A. Yes, from Vekaz Husic, because he was in that group of people who

19 went to Bradjevina.

20 Q. Right. Because you were not at Bradjevina yourself. You

21 physically were not there. Right?

22 A. I personally wasn't there.

23 Q. Yes. And when you were asked the question by Mrs. -- Madam

24 Vidovic in reference to Mr. Husic: "What did he tell you what really took

25 place?" You answered: "He told me that a group of people assembled with

1 rifles headed by Vekaz Husic as well as thousands of civilians and that

2 Bradjevina was exiled."

3 We later on explained that terminology. But you said that a group

4 of people assembled with rifles headed by Mr. Husic as well as thousands

5 of civilians. That was your testimony. Remember, Mr. Tiro?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, to your knowledge where did Mr. Husic come from, what town

8 did he come from?

9 A. Vekaz Husic is from Mocevici.

10 Q. And do you know whether he had any type of village guards, group

11 of armed men, or a unit with him in Bradjevina? Did he tell you that?

12 A. The guards were around Mocevici without rifles. People went

13 unarmed with their bare hands just to make sure that nobody would attack.

14 So people did go there even without rifles.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Prosecutor

17 perhaps could put the questions a little more clearly because she asked,

18 at least that's how it was translated into Bosnian, whether Vekaz Husic

19 had a group of people in Bradjevina and this is something that would

20 confuse the witness. He is talking about Vekaz Husic and Mocevici and

21 then it might seem as if this witness is not credible. I mean, the

22 questions are simply not clear; they're not understandable.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Or they are not being interpreted maybe clearly

24 sometimes. But I don't know, I'm not in a position because -- to say

25 anything because I'm not following the interpretation in Bosnian of

1 course.

2 MS. SELLERS:

3 Q. Mr. Tiro, let me just rephrase that question, although --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks for telling us that. I mean, if the -- your

5 question was interpreted the way that Madam Vidovic explained, then

6 obviously it was interpreted in the wrong manner. Because that's not what

7 I have in the transcript anyway.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. Simply, did Mr. Husic did tell you that he had any type of village

10 guards or groups of armed men or unit with him in Bradjevina during the

11 attack? That was my question.

12 A. He couldn't have a guard in Bradjevina when the Serbs were in

13 Bradjevina at the time. He could have had a guard of his own around

14 Mocevici with people who had weapons and were without weapons.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but now the question was very clear. During

16 the attack. The question that you are being asked to answer is whether

17 you were told by this individual, by Husic, that -- whether he had any

18 armed persons, description that Madam Vidovic -- that Madam Sellers

19 said -- used -- during the attack on Bradjevina.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. People could not

21 have driven people out with their bare hands. There was a small group of

22 people with Husic. I explained that to the Prosecutor.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I think that clears --

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

25 Q. Now that's much clearer. I understand your evidence.

1 Now, do you know a man named Dzevad Salkic?

2 A. I don't know that man. I don't know where he's from.

3 Q. Well, am I correct then in understanding that the information that

4 you received concerning any armed people at the attack on Bradjevina then

5 came from Mr. Husic?

6 A. The attack on Bradjevina?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Only from Husic. I found out about it only from Husic, from no

9 one else.

10 Q. So Mr. Husic acted together with the group of armed men that he

11 told you about - that was your understanding - and then there were

12 civilians in addition to it? I just want to make sure I'm completely

13 clear on what you've testified about.

14 A. This question is not clear to me.

15 Q. Mr. Husic acted together with the group of armed people and with

16 the civilians in Bradjevina. That's my question. Is that your

17 understanding of what Mr. Husic told you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. And as a result of that the Serbs were driven

20 out, exiled, removed from Bradjevina. That's what you understood

21 Mr. Husic to say?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So there's a possibility that there was other information

24 concerning civilians or these armed people that Mr. Husic was unable to or

25 didn't or forgot to tell you about the attack on Bradjevina. Isn't that

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1 possible?

2 A. No. Because I personally wasn't interested in talking to people

3 about attacks. All I wanted to do was to survive.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that --

5 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- answers your question.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, no, it doesn't. I will try and

8 rephrase.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in the meantime let me hear what Mr. Jones --

10 MR. JONES: May I point something out in the transcript. Possibly

11 it's a question of how the question has been put. The question initially

12 was: So Mr. Husic acted together with the group of armed men that he told

13 you about, so Husic acting with a group of armed men. When the question

14 was put again, it was Mr. Husic acted together with a group of armed men

15 and with the civilians. Now, I take it from the way the question was put

16 initially that it's Husic together with a group of armed men, not acting

17 together with civilians. But the way the sentence -- the question was

18 rephrased the second time it suggests that he was -- the group was acting

19 together with civilians, and that was not how the question was put.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's how I --

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I intentionally rephrased the question

22 to --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I can understand why you -- of course and I

24 understood at the time why you had rephrased the question. But perhaps we

25 could clarify this and also this last part which according to me he

1 answered in a way that does not respond to your question.

2 Let's start with this last one. You were asked, Mr. Tiro, by

3 Ms. Sellers: "So there is a possibility that there was other information

4 concerning civilians or these armed people that Mr. Husic was unable or

5 didn't -- or forgot to tell you about the attack on Bradjevina. Isn't

6 that possible?"

7 I will rephrase the question myself, not because it's not clear,

8 don't misunderstand me, Ms. Sellers, but I will rephrase it my own way.

9 I put it to you that what -- the information that Mr. Husic gave

10 you about the attack on Bradjevina may not be complete, that he only gave

11 you some information but not all information about that attack, would you

12 accept it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only some things he told me, that

14 the attack that would place, many civilians were killed, that he actually

15 spread it around so that people find -- found out more about it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

17 That, I think, answers that last question that you put. The other

18 thing that -- once it has been mentioned now I think we need to clear it.

19 When Mr. Husic was giving you information on the attack on

20 Bradjevina, did he mention at all the presence during the attack of

21 civilians, which I take it he did? And if he did, in what context did he

22 mention civilians as being present during the attack on Bradjevina?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Civilians were

24 present with Husic because they had had too much of shelling and shooting.

25 And that's why the civilians also went to drive the Serbs out of that

1 village, to make the situation easier for their own village.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not pursue it myself any further.

3 I think it answers the questions that you put on both issues.

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, it has, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you, of course, want to pursue the matter any

6 further yourself, I suggest you do it immediately after the break.

7 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour, I agree.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a 30-minute break starting from now.

9 Do you think you will still finish by the end of the second

10 session?

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, no. I do not believe I will.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's what I thought.

13 We will have a 30-minute break.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, please.

17 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, we're going to continue in our -- continue our

19 question-and-answer session now. I would like to just slightly shift to

20 another area where you've mentioned the name Vekaz Husic. Now, am I

21 correct that you testified that Mr. Husic also told you about the attack

22 that occurred in Stanatovici? Let me try and further mispronounce the

23 name or maybe pronounce it correctly, because I do not mean to confuse

24 you. Stanatovici. Do you understand what I'm trying to say, Mr. Tiro?

25 A. I do.

1 Q. Would you please assist me then.

2 A. Yes, I can. Certainly. Because I said clearly that the

3 Stanatovici people withdraw of their own accord and they torched the

4 village in order to prevent us from getting the food or anything else for

5 that matter. That's what Mr. Husic told me.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make it clear. When -- we're referring to

7 the Serbs?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Serbs.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. And, Mr. Tiro, did you get any other information from Mr. Husic

12 about that attack or what occurred there or was he the sole source of your

13 information?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's divide it into two questions, Ms. Sellers.

15 Did you receive information, other information, on the attack on

16 Stanatovici from anyone else apart from Mr. Husic?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, not even Husic

18 went there when he saw that everything had burnt down. There was no need

19 for him to go.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, that wasn't the question. Did anyone else,

21 apart from Mr. Husic, give you information on what happened at

22 Stanatovici, or Stanatovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm giving a proper

24 answer. Husic was the only one who gave me this piece of information,

25 that is to say, that Stanatovici had been torched and that there was no

1 action whatsoever.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That answers that part of the question. Now,

3 the other thing is this: You have told us so far what Mr. Husic told you

4 about the attack on Stanatovici. Did he tell you anything else on that

5 event that you haven't told us as yet?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that answers your two questions.

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you want to pursue the matter of course

10 you're free because I took over when you should be doing the -- yes, Judge

11 Brydensholt would like to ask a question.

12 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But was there at all an attack from the Muslim

13 on this Serb village before the Serbs torched it? Was there an attack at

14 all?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, because there are

16 no Muslim villages in the vicinity either.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

18 MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Mr. Tiro, would you allow for the possibility that there was other

20 information concerning this incident that you just weren't told and

21 therefore were not aware of?

22 A. I wasn't even interested in finding out anything like that. And

23 as to what went on amongst themselves, they could not reveal their secrets

24 to me.

25 Q. Certainly. Did Mr. Husic tell you who he received the information

1 from since he wasn't physically present himself?

2 A. No, he didn't tell me who he got the information from, but it was

3 sufficient for him to be able to follow what was going on in those Serb

4 villages from Mocevici, that is to say, where there was fire and all that.

5 Q. Yes. And one other question. If I understand correctly, you were

6 not present during any of the fighting or action in Ratkovici. Could you

7 just confirm that for me, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which place, if you could repeat it?

9 MS. SELLERS: I'm talking about now Ratkovici, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ratkovici.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can confirm that. I wasn't

12 there at all.

13 MS. SELLERS:

14 Q. And I understand during that time period you had very important

15 family concerns that kept you close to home. That was your testimony,

16 right, Mr. Tiro?

17 A. No, I didn't say I was at home. I had my family with me and my

18 mother was ill, and we were in the forest, outdoors.

19 Q. Yes. And your mother was quite -- was becoming ill at this point

20 and it's among the reasons that your evidence was that you were not at

21 Ratkovici and in addition you did not have a weapon, if I understood

22 correctly?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Tiro, would you allow for the possibility

25 that there were persons who were armed other than the persons with

1 Mr. Husic at Bradjevina?

2 A. I can't confirm that because I didn't see it. I can only confirm

3 that in relation to this smaller group with Vekaz Husic.

4 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Tiro, do you know whether the person that you

5 referred to as Naser Oric was someone who participated in fighting or had

6 groups who participated in fighting under his command or control?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. It has to be specified

10 what fights, what fighting we're talking about. Is Ratkovici what is

11 meant or I don't know what.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you referring to any particular action?

13 MS. SELLERS: Not at this point, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I took it that you were not at this moment.

15 So please answer the question. I think it's a case of repeating your

16 question, Ms. Sellers.

17 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, I asked you whether the person you referred to as Naser

19 Oric was someone who participated in fighting, whether you knew that, or

20 had groups who participated in fighting under his command and control?

21 A. I'm not familiar with any such groups participating anywhere. All

22 I know is that Naser Oric participated in the defence of Potocari.

23 Q. Mr. Tiro, would it be possible then that Naser Oric would have

24 information concerning the defence in the area of Potocari or in the

25 Srebrenica municipality?

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1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think that the --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

3 MS. SELLERS: Question --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm feeling very uncomfortable with the question

5 itself -- myself, Your Honour.

6 MS. SELLERS: Should I withdraw it, Your Honour?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear what Ms. Vidovic --

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. It was pure

10 speculation. Basically the witness is asked to make assumptions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not really. I mean, the question is: Would it

12 follow that because of what you said he would be in a position to know

13 what happened in Potocari? But at the same time, what's the use of asking

14 this question? I mean, you cannot force Mr. Oric to come forward and give

15 us the information.

16 MS. SELLERS: Certainly not, Your Honour. But, Your Honour, if

17 you would just bear with me one minute, I'm asking Mr. Tiro:

18 Q. Then would you agree Mr. Oric might be someone knowledgeable.

19 Since you have testified that he participated in the defence of Potocari,

20 would he be someone who might have been -- would be knowledgeable about

21 the defence of Potocari or the larger Srebrenica municipality?

22 A. He wasn't in a position to know everything. He would be a general

23 in the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It didn't mean that he had

24 to know everything.

25 Q. So is your answer yes or no, Mr. Tiro?

1 A. No.

2 Q. That he would not be in a position to know about -- to be

3 knowledge able about defending Potocari or Srebrenica. That's your

4 answer?

5 A. On the basis of my own experience, he did not have to know.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that Mr. Tiro be shown

7 Prosecution Exhibit P90.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it on Sanction?

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes, it is on Sanction, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That would spare us having -- because we have got

11 six volumes here.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm going to refer to page 89

13 eventually, but I just want to make sure first that we see the title page

14 of Prosecution Exhibit P90. And it's Srebrenica -- excuse me. "Srebrenica

15 Testifies and Accuses Genocide of Bosnia, Eastern Bosnia." And it is a

16 book that the Prosecution understands is written by Mr. Naser Oric.

17 Q. Yes. Now, I'm going to go to page 89 in the English translation.

18 The ERN number, and it should have the equivalent for B/C/S, would be

19 00816759.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a book that the Prosecution

23 has submitted to us on a number of occasions in a number of different

24 versions with different numbers. And now we're being told a number that

25 we don't have. Could you give us the page number in the Bosniak version

1 because this is the reason why I've brought the book along. And please,

2 Your Honours, I think that this is something that can't have an impact on

3 the witness's testimony, but I really think that it is unfair for any

4 exhibits to be submitted to us in this way because this makes it

5 impossible for me to prepare for the extra questions and I simply can't

6 follow what the Prosecution is trying to say, and it is important because

7 of the translation as well.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. First of all, I mean, does this book

9 exist in our records under different exhibit numbers or --

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the first thing we need to establish.

12 MS. SELLERS: I believe this has only been referred to as

13 Prosecution Exhibit 90, P90.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So that conflicts with what you have just told us,

15 Ms. Vidovic, and I want to clear this up because it's either P90 or it's

16 also something else.

17 MS. SELLERS: Would you allow me to consult with my case manager,

18 Your Honour, please?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, because this is something that needs

20 to be established.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, if it is P90 could we be

23 told what the page is in the original Bosniak version from the

24 Exhibit P90.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Which page from the original -- I mean from

1 the book itself are you referring the witness to?

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Because in the English version it's page 89, that

4 much you told us. But you haven't told us, or at least I did not catch up

5 the page number in the book itself. I mean, in other words, what is the

6 witness being shown?

7 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, could you just bear with me one

8 second?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would beg the Court's indulgence.

12 We'll move on to another topic to be assured of getting the correct page

13 number. I understand Madam Vidovic's point and I have been using the

14 English version.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 MS. SELLERS: So could I ask that the exhibit be removed from the

17 witness for the moment and we will come back to that when we have the

18 proper information for you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move to something else, another document.

20 Thank you, Madam Vidovic, for raising the matter. I think it

21 needed to be raised.

22 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And also please, I take it now that there is or

24 seems to be in agreement there is only one document, which is this book.

25 But please verify that once the matter has been raised. I want to be sure

1 that this book is -- exists in our records as P90 and is also not some

2 other number. I mean, that needs to be verified.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have just been advised that this

4 is P90 and the book is not found under any other exhibit.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 MS. SELLERS: I see that the registrar is also confirming that for

7 us.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I need unanimous consent on this.

9 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Tiro, thank you for your patience. I would like to now move

11 on and ask you a question that Mr. Husic is someone who you spoke with on

12 occasion and who gave you information about events, particularly tension

13 and fighting, in your area in 1992, April through July. Isn't that

14 correct?

15 A. It doesn't have to mean that all the information I got was from

16 Husic. Some things I could have observed myself.

17 Q. Certainly. I'm just confirming Mr. Husic certainly was one of

18 your sources of information and it's possible that you could observe

19 things yourself. So we're in agreement. My question is: At times didn't

20 you also receive information from Stojan Stevanovic?

21 A. Your Honour, this is the way things should be explained. Stevan

22 Stojanovic gave out information about the Serbs arming themselves, but he

23 could not tell me, okay, this is where an attack is going to take place,

24 this is where war is going to be, et cetera.

25 Q. Yes, Your Honour, I completely agree with Mr. Tiro. As a matter

1 of fact, the point that I wanted to make is that he referred to

2 Mr. Stevanovic as a great friend, someone who is actually aiding and

3 assisting the Muslim population and particularly telling you information.

4 That's my point. And you agree with that, don't you, Mr. Tiro?

5 A. Yes. I agree that we got this information from him in as far as

6 the Serbs getting arms were concerned.

7 Q. And that since he was a good friend, he was a good man?

8 A. Yes. He was a very good man, and he was a good friend to my

9 entire village.

10 Q. Now, do you know whether Mr. Stevanovic -- Stojanovic,

11 Mr. Stojanovic, was he alive toward the end of 1992?

12 A. I myself didn't see him again since the beginning of May.

13 Q. Do you know whether he died during 1992?

14 A. I was just told by the brother that he himself was killed in

15 Bradjevina. And that's what his cousin Stanisa told me when he came to

16 say hello to me and I didn't want to shake hands with him.

17 Q. So was he killed in Bradjevina at the same time Mr. Husic was in

18 Bradjevina?

19 A. I can't confirm that because I did not get that information. And

20 I wasn't a journalist either to go and take anything or whatever.

21 Q. Certainly, I understand that. Could you tell the Trial Chamber,

22 was Mr. Stevanovic -- Stojanovic a young man or an older man? Was he

23 fighting age? That's what I'd like to ask.

24 A. I do apologise, Your Honours, it is not Stojanovic, it is

25 Stevanovic.

1 Q. Stevanovic.

2 A. He was an elderly man, an elderly man. He must have been 55 years

3 old.

4 Q. Did Mr. Husic --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes us feel very old. If 55 is -- it's -- I

6 start shivering.

7 MS. SELLERS: It's the witness's characterisation of the event.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 60 years young he says.

9 MS. SELLERS:

10 Q. Did Mr. Husic tell you anything about Mr. Stevanovic when he was

11 recounting to you about Bradjevina?

12 A. No, he didn't tell me anything.

13 Q. Did he ever mention to you in your conversations from June 1992

14 onward anything that happened to your good friend?

15 A. No, he never told me anything. And even if things do happen,

16 people find it difficult to talk about them.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tiro. I understand this might have been a

18 difficult subject to speak about.

19 Now I'd like to ask you: Did you ever come to know that Vekaz

20 Husic became a commander or a leader of a group or a unit from Mocevici

21 after June 1992?

22 A. As a leader or a commander, well, nobody actually acknowledged

23 anything like that. It could only have been based on an agreement amongst

24 the people. I didn't really -- wasn't aware that anybody was in a

25 position to command anybody else; that wasn't possible.

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1 Q. So are you testifying that Mr. Husic did not become any type of

2 leader of an armed group or unit? Is that what you're testifying to right

3 now?

4 A. He may have been like a leader, but he didn't stand out from

5 amongst 15 or 20 people. But also I guaranteed that this was not the case

6 in Mocevici.

7 Q. Mr. Tiro, just one last question about Mr. Vekaz. I'm trying to

8 draw your attention to later 1992 and 1993. Did you have knowledge then

9 that he became or he was a leader of an armed group or unit? Just yes or

10 no, did you have that information or not about your friend?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have now been given the indication in

14 the book where we can look, and if I can just turn back to that evidence.

15 Would you please present him with P90 also.

16 Q. Now, I'm informed that page 89 in the Bosnian version will be at

17 number 02919375. It starts at page 157.

18 Now, Mr. Tiro, I want to draw your attention that on the English

19 version of page 88 we have a title, and I hope that this is how the

20 translation follows. It's a subchapter concerning: "The enemy offensive

21 continues. Liberation of a large free territory with Srebrenica as

22 centre, in the period June 1992 to January 1993."

23 Do you see where I'm reading from, sir?

24 MS. SELLERS: Could we have just some assistance from the usher to

25 make sure that -- thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that he's got the correct page.

2 MS. SELLERS: I'm reading from a page with a subtitle, so that

3 page --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I would take it that he should be looking at

5 page with ERN -- it must be the one before 02919375. There must be a

6 subtitle.

7 MS. SELLERS:

8 Q. Sir, could you just confirm for us there is a subtitle on that

9 page?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, I would ask that you -- at least in the English version we

12 turn the page, we would be on page 89 in the English version. And could

13 you please turn the page, sir, and we're just a little bit more than

14 midway down on the following page. There is a paragraph midway down that

15 begins with: "Between 21 and 26 June, daily battles were fought to create

16 a link that would go from the Skenderovici area to Osmaci to Poznanovici."

17 Sir, do you see where I'm reading? That should be ERN that ends

18 in 9375. Sir, do you see where I'm reading almost midway down through the

19 page? The paragraph beginning: "Between 21 and 26 June."

20 Thank you. Would you just say yes so that we pick that up from

21 the interpreters, Mr. Tiro.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear what the witness said.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Tiro, could you repeat what you said,

24 please, what you've just said, because the interpreters didn't hear you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I just said that I saw this

1 part of the book here.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes.

3 Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS:

5 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Tiro, I'm going to --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem, Ms. Vidovic?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, that I

8 have to react but perhaps the witness would be confused. In the book or

9 it could be a wrong translation. In the original it said: "In the course

10 of the month of June, from the 21st until the 29th of June," and not

11 the 26th like it says here.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That does make a difference. So --

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we'll --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It does make a difference to us.

15 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And not to the witness, because the witness is

17 looking at the page where supposedly it says: "Between 21st and 29th of

18 June."

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So your question should include both dates.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. Then I will use a date as my

22 learned friend has suggested between --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not seeing it because I only have the English

24 version here.

25 MS. SELLERS: --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that Madam Vidovic knows exactly what she

2 is saying. So your question should be directed to the period 21st to 29th

3 of June and not the 21st to 26th of June.

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, in that first sentence we'll have between the 21st

6 and 29th of June, I believe that's what you're looking at. I want to draw

7 your attention to the following sentence in that paragraph where it

8 says: "Suffering no casualties, our forces counter-attacked and liberated

9 this territory, evicting the aggressor from positions at Ratkovici,

10 Ducici, Dvoriste, Polinci, Magudovici, Kaludra, Bradjevina, and

11 Vranesevic."

12 Please forgive my pronunciation.

13 Now, looking at that sentence, and keeping in mind how you

14 testified earlier, do you allow for the possibility that Naser Oric might

15 have had information about forces, Muslim forces, who counter-attacked and

16 liberated territory, including Ratkovici and Bradjevina?

17 A. Your Honours, I don't know what kind of information he received

18 and from whom he received it. This is the first time that I am seeing

19 this book and regarding this book practically the whole of the Drina

20 Valley was liberated. Where did so many people come from in order to

21 liberate so many villages? Then in that case we would have been also in

22 Bratunac and right to the -- next to the Drina with all of this.

23 Q. Mr. Tiro, I understand that your question calls for conjecture,

24 but my question was: Do you admit the possibility then that Naser Oric

25 had the information concerning our forces attacking -- counter-attacking

1 and liberating Ratkovici and Bradjevina?

2 A. Your Honour, I personally think that he did not have this

3 information and all of this was written just like that. And this book

4 should be taken out of circulation as soon as possible, because according

5 to this book, if one were to consider it, then all of us Muslims would be

6 considered war crimes -- war criminals.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to move on to the

9 following page.

10 Q. And I believe it's the following page also in the Bosnian version.

11 It should therefore end in 377.

12 Yes, Mr. Tiro, I would just now ask you to go down one-third of

13 the way through the page. It states in the English version: "Among the

14 battles waged in July 1992, special mention should be made of the

15 liberation of Likare."

16 Do you see where I'm reading, sir? This is page 90 in the English

17 version.

18 Mr. Tiro, if you could just say yes to indicate you see where I'm

19 referring to so hat the interpreters could hear.

20 A. Yes, I see that.

21 Q. I'll continue that sentence where it says: "Among the battles

22 waged in July 1992, special mention should be made of the liberation of

23 Likare on 2 July and the conquest of the positions," and among those

24 positions the third position says "Stanatovici."

25 Do you see that, Mr. Tiro?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Thank you. Would you allow that there might -- that Naser Oric

3 might have information or knowledge that Stanatovici were part of the

4 positions that were conquered or there was a conquest, a Muslim conquest

5 in July of 1992?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: Yes, sorry, Your Honour. I'm objecting because I'm

8 following the English where my colleague is following the Bosnian.

9 There's an ambiguity there. Is it that Naser Oric had the information in

10 July of 1992 or did he have the information when he wrote this book as

11 opposed to did he know that Stanatovici was conquered in July 1992.

12 There's a straight ambiguity. If it can be made clear, are we're talking

13 about did Naser Oric know at the time in July 1992 or when he wrote this

14 book or had this book ghost-written or whatever --

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me, I would really ask that what

16 counsel said be objected to. He's testifying, informing the witness of

17 possibly his opinion of the authorship of the book, and I would really

18 ask --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, put the question again, please, maybe --

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you've heard Mr. Jones, you know exactly

22 what his problem was or is, so --

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

24 Q. The question is that Naser Oric might have knowledge that the

25 conquest liberation occurred in July 1992 of these positions, including

1 Stanatovici.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Stanatovici.

3 MS. SELLERS: Stanatovici.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what kind of

5 information he would when it was very hard to get to Srebrenica even

6 through the woods. And Stanatovici are about 70 kilometres from

7 Srebrenica, if not even more.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. So your answer is you don't know. Is that correct, Mr. Tiro?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No what? No what? You mean you don't know?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's impossible for

13 Naser to find out information about Stanatovici from such a distance, and

14 there are many Serb villages in between Srebrenica and Stanatovici for

15 this information to be conveyed to him. This book is not true at all.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, I was going to ask another

17 question, but I think I will stop here for the time being and you again

18 take over.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes. I would ask now that P90 be removed from

20 Mr. Tiro.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tiro, for looking at these passages with us.

22 Mr. Tiro, I'd like to turn your attention now to October of 1992.

23 And you testified in direct examination about Fakovici. Now, Mr. Tiro,

24 concerning Fakovici was this a town that you were familiar with that you

25 had gone to many times prior to the war?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As a matter of fact, I believe you testified that you were on your

3 way to Fakovici one day to get flour but never ended up arriving in

4 Fakovici?

5 A. Not that I never ended up arriving, but that I just couldn't

6 really get into Fakovici. I did get to the outskirts of Fakovici though.

7 Q. Yes. And is it my understanding then that you were not present or

8 never were able to get into Fakovici between May 1992 up until October

9 1992?

10 A. I didn't get to the centre of Fakovici in October either.

11 Q. So then is it more correct to say that from May 1992 through until

12 the end of 1992, you were not physically present in Fakovici?

13 A. I wasn't present. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, you've testified also that there were two

15 underage boys who were taken to Fakovici and who told you what was

16 happening in Fakovici in the spring of 1992. That was your testimony.

17 Now, were those two underage boys taken by police officers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were they taken to a police station as far as you knew?

20 A. They were taken to the newly formed Serb police station.

21 Q. So then I'm correct in assuming that they were not taken to a

22 command station or a command post of the military?

23 A. That was their command, the command of the reserve forces of the

24 police and of the Serb army.

25 Q. What does a command station mean to you so that I can just be

1 clear in understanding your testimony?

2 A. That's the formation, the forming of the Serb national command.

3 Q. And is that with the two underage boys related to you after they

4 had been released?

5 A. They only said that they were there at the command. We knew from

6 before that they were forming their own Serbian police.

7 Q. So your information concerning the Fakovici command is based

8 primarily on knowledge before the two underage boys went to Fakovici?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's rephrase it.

10 Did you know of the existence of this Serb Fakovici command before

11 these kids, these children, were taken to it? Were you aware of its

12 existence already or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

15 Does that answer your question, Ms. Sellers?

16 MS. SELLERS: Well, Your Honour, what I'm trying to distinguish is

17 was he referring --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but I'm trying to make things easier for you

19 and for us.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Certainly.

21 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, after the two children, the young boys, returned you

22 were not present in Fakovici to determine what they meant by "command

23 station"?

24 A. I personally wasn't in Fakovici, but it is sufficient proof for me

25 that Zoran Jovanovic and Petko Jovanovic came to me to tell our population

1 that they were forming a Serb police command in Fakovici and that they

2 were forming a new Serb municipality or they were forming a new

3 municipality in Skelani.

4 Q. Fine. And it's from the formation of the police and the Serb

5 municipality, those authorities, from which you determined that that was a

6 command station?

7 A. We didn't conclude anything on the basis of that, but they

8 personally told us that.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tiro. Thank you for assisting me in understanding.

10 So on October 5th when you went toward Fakovici, was it to fight

11 or was it to gather food?

12 A. I wasn't able to fire from my rucksack. I didn't have a rifle.

13 Of course I went to get food.

14 Q. And so the only thing that you were carrying was your rucksack.

15 Is that what I understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you had testified earlier that someone would put a rucksack

18 on their back and others would just follow them because they knew that

19 they were going toward food. Did you just follow someone with a rucksack

20 toward Fakovici?

21 A. No. I said that my cousins came that day and that I was working

22 and that we set out that evening.

23 Q. So you went to Fakovici with your cousins, and I assume they only

24 had rucksacks. And it was just to get food on the evening in October. Is

25 that your testimony?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Well, Mr. Tiro, why did you stop before going into Fakovici? Why

3 didn't you go and get food?

4 A. Well, how could I fall into the hands of their command and risk my

5 life, hand myself over practically to the Serbs?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to clarify, could

8 Ms. Sellers repeat her question because I believe that the question was

9 not properly translated. I had the impression that Ms. Sellers asked a

10 question that referred to that particular occasion, and it was translated

11 as: Why didn't he go earlier to Fakovici, before these events. So I

12 think again that there is a difference between the question and the

13 translation.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What Madam Vidovic has just said, assuming

15 that it is correct, would not reflect the question that you put as it

16 appears on -- on the monitor, at least in the transcript.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me, I thought the answer made

18 perfect sense but I'll certainly give a specific time.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But if he answered you with reference to a

20 previous -- why he never went previously, well, I mean, that's a

21 completely different answer to what we have here. Because if we read the

22 transcript here, that reply, that answer, would not be to the question

23 that appears here but to the question that Ms. Sellers -- Ms. Vidovic

24 pointed out.

25 MS. SELLERS:

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, on the occasion in October when you and your relatives

2 were going to Fakovici, my question is: Why did you stop and not go into

3 Fakovici?

4 A. I stopped. I couldn't get in because of the shelling and the

5 shooting. I didn't want to take any risks. That's why I found the food

6 on the outskirts of a house -- at a house on the outskirts of the place,

7 and I took the food and returned.

8 Q. What time did you arrive to these outskirts? What time of day did

9 you arrive to these outskirts?

10 A. We arrived around midday on the 6th -- no, actually on the 7th.

11 On the 7th.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, you've testified and confirmed a couple times that

13 you didn't have any weapons. Now --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I believe that you were asked by Madam Vidovic during the direct

16 examination whether you turned over your rifles to the Serbs.

17 MS. SELLER: Let me go back to that part of the transcript, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- is it about the transcript or --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could have the

21 transcript reference to which the Prosecutor is referring. When we ask

22 the question, we provide the references and that helps. But I wasn't

23 talking about rifles, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

25 MS. SELLERS: I'm about to give the reference, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

2 MS. SELLERS: I'm talking -- I'm referring to page 59 of the

3 transcript from -- I'll just get your -- on the 5th of September. And I'm

4 down at line --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment --

6 MS. SELLERS: 22.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because I have to go to the page. 50 -- 59?

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Line 22. "Who were the people who had those

10 rifles?"

11 MS. SELLERS: No, I'm sorry, Your Honour, line 23. In my

12 transcript it says --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Razim Sezanovic [phoen] he had the automatic rifle

14 because he was the active policeman, and the other person was Sevel Husic

15 [phoen].

16 MS. SELLERS: I'm on a different line. Your Honour, my line 23

17 reads: Did you turn over the two rifles you had to the Serbs on that

18 occasion?"

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we are not fine-tuned. Is it page 59?

20 MS. SELLERS: For me it's page --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you read it again, please.

22 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm on page 59, of my transcript.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MS. SELLERS: And there is the question Madam Vidovic asked: "Did

25 you turn over the two rifles you had to the Serbs in relation to that

1 ultimatum?"

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 MS. SELLERS: I have an answer that says "no."

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mine it is page 60, line 7 and 8. And the

5 answer is on page -- on line 9. It's okay. I mean, it's no big deal.

6 The important thing is that I can follow you.

7 MS. SELLERS: Right.

8 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, you've given evidence, you've testified --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure. One moment, because I want to

10 make sure that Mr. Jones and Madam Vidovic can follow you as well.

11 MR. JONES: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if my record does not tally with theirs, I

13 have to assume or I will make sure about your record.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. It's perfectly apparent from the context that

15 those two rifles, the ones of Razim Sezanovic and the one of Husic --

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think that the witness could testify

17 about it but I don't believe that Mr. Jones --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, I only want to know whether you

19 have found the --

20 MR. JONES: Yes, page 60, line 7.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you are fine-tuned with me, with my

22 transcript, but that doesn't tally with yours.

23 MR. JONES: It's page 70 [sic], lines 7 to 8. And of course "you"

24 in English can be singular or plural, and I wouldn't want the witness to

25 be told that he said something other than what he said.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 Just read out from that transcript whatever you need to read out

3 to the witness and then put your question, please.

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, right now I'm going to withdraw the

5 question. I believe that the comment that has been made by Defence

6 counsel concerning the question and concerning the comments and the

7 content --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, point taken and question withdrawn. Let's move

9 to the next.

10 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, one moment because I have to get this out.

12 Yeah, go ahead.

13 MS. SELLERS:

14 Q. Mr. Tiro --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. One moment because now I am on the

16 6th. 7th. All right. Okay. All right. Go ahead.

17 MS. SELLERS:

18 Q. Mr. Tiro, were any of the members of your family who went with you

19 toward Fakovici that day carrying weapons or armed?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, how many male members were living with you in Srebrenica at

22 this time, male members of your family?

23 A. From my own family I was the only one who could feed the rest of

24 the family, because my brothers or my brothers-in-law were not here at the

25 time.

1 Q. You testified that other relatives came to stay with you in the

2 house, and it's including those other relatives I'm asking you how many

3 male members of the family were with you in Srebrenica. It might be an

4 extended family.

5 A. Out of the cousins who were there with me, there were young

6 children. And he was a chronically ill man, he had a chronic disease.

7 Q. But you are certainly referring to older male relatives who went

8 with you to Fakovici who were assisting or who told you to come look for

9 food?

10 A. Those cousins of mine were not staying in my house where I was.

11 They were in another part of Srebrenica.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you for that understanding. Then could you just tell

13 me those cousins. I'm referring to the ones that you went to Fakovici

14 with, those other relatives. How many males were among them?

15 A. I've stressed earlier on that I only went with two cousins and I

16 meant two male cousins.

17 Q. Now, did there come a time period in December when you went to or

18 towards Bjelovac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you also travel with these male relatives?

21 A. With other relatives who had houses down there.

22 Q. And if I remember your testimony, you referred to eventually

23 meeting someone called Sosoni or Soson.

24 A. Yes, Soson.

25 Q. Now, is Soson a nickname or is that a proper name?

1 A. I don't know it either. I only heard somebody call him Soson.

2 Q. And did everyone refer to this person as Soson?

3 A. That was the first time I saw the guy, and as to how everybody

4 else called him I don't know.

5 Q. Now, you said that Soson said something to you or to the group of

6 people with you. As a matter of fact, he was prohibiting you for

7 coming -- from coming further. Isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, did you know anyone else named Soson in Srebrenica or from

10 the area that you came to -- came from?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So in that sense it was -- it was a bit of an unusual nickname for

13 someone to have?

14 A. From my own point of view it was unusual.

15 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber again what Soson told you.

16 A. He just told us that we couldn't get through because of a great

17 deal of shelling and shooting and that we would get killed. And he

18 wouldn't allow us to get through.

19 Q. Now, was he with other people who were not part of your group,

20 Mr. -- this Soson?

21 A. Yes. I've already said in my statement that there were other --

22 five or six people. He wasn't on his own.

23 Q. And did you obey him or heed what he was saying when he said that,

24 Stop, you can't go further?

25 A. I just went the long way around, across a hill called Tri Kralja,

1 the three kings.

2 Q. Now, was he carrying any sort of weapon or arms when he told you

3 that you cannot go further?

4 A. Yes, of course. He was carrying a rifle.

5 Q. And the men or the people who were with him, were they also armed

6 or carrying any form of a weapon?

7 A. Yes, they did, too.

8 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber what type of clothing Soson was

9 wearing when you had this conversation?

10 A. Civilian clothes. I mean, I didn't talk to him but he was wearing

11 civilian clothes.

12 Q. And did the other men who were with him, the other men who had

13 weapons, were they also wearing civilian clothing or were they dressed

14 differently?

15 A. Not differently. They were all wearing civilian clothes.

16 Q. Now, were you able to observe whether they had any types of

17 ribbons, string, or other garment tied around their arms or their heads?

18 A. Around their heads, I didn't see. And as to their arms, well,

19 they were carrying rifles if they had one; and if they didn't, they

20 didn't.

21 Q. Now, how many civilians -- or the group that you were with, how

22 many people were with you?

23 A. There were civilians there, more than 2.000, because there were

24 fertile fields down there, and everybody was hoping they would find some

25 food and ensure their survival in that way.

1 Q. And did the 2.000 people who were with you, did they follow what

2 Soson said when he said, Don't come this way, go another way?

3 A. I didn't say that 2.000 people were with me, but I just said that

4 2.000 people were on the move. And quite a few of them listened to what

5 he had to say and turned back.

6 Q. Well, how many people were with you? I don't want to mislead your

7 evidence. How many people were with you in a group?

8 A. I can't give you an exact figure because I didn't have time to

9 count, but more than a thousand.

10 Q. And that thousand followed his instructions and turned and went a

11 different way. They obeyed the indications that he had given, that Soson

12 had given?

13 A. No. They went -- what I meant was not that they went a different

14 way. But some people turned back and this thousand people actually

15 remained in the forest around the hill Tri Kralja.

16 Q. But that thousand, that group of a thousand people who were

17 hungry, they didn't overrun Soson and his men at that moment, did they?

18 A. Well, a Muslim can't overrun a Muslim. They didn't obey his

19 orders either. They didn't go back to Srebrenica. They simply stopped

20 and decided to wait and see what was going to happen next.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MS. SELLERS: Pardon me.

23 Q. Mr. Tiro, you also testified that during your trek towards

24 Bjelovac that you saw the dead body of a Serb near an artillery gun. How

25 close were you when you saw the body?

1 A. It wasn't at Bjelovac but at Kunjerac.

2 Q. Yes. This is when you were going toward -- time period going

3 towards Bjelovac, yes, it's at Kunjerac, yes.

4 A. I was right next to it. I walked by his house.

5 Q. Could you determine how he had died?

6 A. Certainly because of the shooting. Because he was standing next

7 to an anti-aircraft gun.

8 Q. By that I understand that you are testifying that he had been shot

9 and hence died?

10 A. Yes, that's what I've said. There was shooting and he must have

11 been killed because of the shooting. He wouldn't have been killed just

12 standing there next to a weapon.

13 Q. So was it your impression that he had been engaged in some sort of

14 fighting or battle and then was killed?

15 A. Of course, especially since he was wearing a camouflage uniform.

16 Q. Now, to your knowledge were any of the people with you, in the

17 group that you were with, were they armed? Were they carrying weapons?

18 A. Your Honour, I keep mentioning civilians who had no weapons. Had

19 they had any weapons, they would have -- they would have gone to liberate

20 the people and allow them to get the food; they wouldn't have stayed in

21 the forest with me.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Tiro, so you're making the distinction and I understand

23 between civilians and people who have weapons who would participate in the

24 fighting. And the civilians who were with you, including yourself, were

25 unarmed and didn't have weapons. That's my understanding of our

1 testimony?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Thank you. So the person in the camouflage uniform who had been

4 killed from your impression had been killed by a fighter, had been killed

5 by a non-civilian who had weapons. Wouldn't that be correct?

6 A. I cannot make any claims as to who had killed him. Perhaps their

7 own shell killed him. I can't give any proof of that. All I saw was the

8 dead body.

9 Q. But on your trek to Bjelovac, you certainly did see armed Muslims

10 such as Soson. Isn't that correct, Mr. Tiro?

11 A. I said that I saw Soson and five or six other people. But they

12 were not really close to Bjelovac or Kunjerac.

13 Q. Now, do you know why Soson and his -- and the group of armed

14 persons, men with him, why were they not in -- no, why were they at the

15 place where you encountered them? Why weren't they in Bjelovac?

16 A. I cannot confirm that, why they were there, because I myself

17 didn't talk to them.

18 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that they were at a position

19 where they had a view of any fighting that was taking place?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please, Madam Vidovic. Wait a minute.

21 Please answer the question if you can answer it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can answer the

23 question. It wasn't a fighting position, and they were below the

24 Tri Kralja in the direction of Srebrenica. And from there they couldn't

25 even see Bjelovac or Kunjerac or a part of Sase.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness was being

3 invited to speculate and I would object to that, and I would like the

4 Prosecution to ask questions which are not based on speculation.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you. He was not invited to

6 speculate. He was being asked -- considering the position that these

7 people according to him were -- whether they could observe -- whether from

8 that position they could observe the fighting. And he's given -- that's

9 why I said "if you can answer." I interjected in that manner on purpose.

10 So let's move, Ms. Sellers, yes, please.

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Tiro, were they on their way -- to your knowledge, were they

13 on their way back to Srebrenica, Sosoni and the group of fighters that he

14 was with?

15 A. Your Honour, I wasn't following whether they were going back to

16 Srebrenica or going to Bjelovac or Kunjerac. I was simply trying to get

17 food myself.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So your answer is you don't know?

19 MS. SELLERS:

20 Q. You would agree with Your Honour that your answer is you don't

21 know?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We've got six or seven minutes --

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that if we could take the

1 break now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure.

3 MS. SELLERS: Because I'm just going to finish up one area and

4 then the last final area and I will be finished my cross-examination.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you think you will be engaged --

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think I will need at least 20

7 minutes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. So we will have -- and how much do you

9 think you need?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 15 to 20 minutes as

11 well.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No, I think we can manage it. Let's

14 have a 25-minute break and please, everyone, try to be punctual.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'd like to ask you where you met Soson and his group of

20 men. How far was that from the Sase mine?

21 A. It's at least seven kilometres away.

22 Q. Now, was this in the area of Tri Kralja where you met him and his

23 men?

24 A. Before Tri Kralja, and later I went to Tri Kralja with the people.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: From which direction?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction of Srebrenica,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS:

5 Q. Now, were you aware of what Soson and his men were doing in the

6 road other than turning you back?

7 A. I personally don't know what their choice was. All I know is that

8 they were turning the civilians back to prevent them from getting killed.

9 I don't know what their intentions were for being there, though.

10 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'm going to suggest to you that the reason that Soson's

11 men were on that stretch of road not too far or the seven kilometres you

12 mentioned from the Sase mine is that they were part of a unit that had

13 been scheduled to do a particular military task.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, before he answers the question, you've used the

15 word "unit." I take it that you have used the word unit in the same

16 context and sense that he used it before.

17 MS. SELLERS: Interchangeably with "group."

18 JUDGE AGIUS: As he understands it.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Interchangeably with "group" as I understand

20 from what his prior testimony. I could use the terminology "group" if he

21 feels --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Then use "group" because he has corrected us saying

23 that to him a unit means a detachment which has a battalion and whatever.

24 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

25 Q. We'll use the terminology that you've indicated, group.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the question would be: It's being suggested to

2 you and you own -- you need to answer to this question. It's being

3 suggested to you that the reason that Soson's men were on that stretch of

4 the road is that they were -- they formed part of a group that had been

5 scheduled to do a particular military task. Would you agree with that

6 suggestion?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as to whether they

8 belonged to a group or whether they were independent, that's something I

9 cannot confirm.

10 MS. SELLERS:

11 Q. Certainly. Would you agree to the proposition that they were

12 there to do a specific military task, Mr. Tiro?

13 A. No, Your Honour.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I ask that the witness be

15 shown P84.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. P84.

17 MS. SELLERS: I'm going to be specifically looking at I believe in

18 the B/C/S the ERN number of 02115092. In the English version it is

19 page 37. I am more interested in what appears at the top of page 38.

20 Q. Mr. Tiro, I would like to draw your attention to a paragraph that

21 begins with the word Osman. And it says: "It is necessary to prepare a

22 group."

23 Do you see where I am, Mr. Tiro? It would be at the bottom of the

24 page with the ERN number, 5092, that ends in 5092. Page 38 in the English

25 version.

1 MS. SELLERS: It is also on Sanction I've been informed.

2 Q. Mr. Tiro, have you found where it says "Osman"? It says: "Osman:

3 It is necessary to prepare a group ..."

4 A. I don't know which Osman this is. There was several Osmans. I

5 don't know which one is being referred to here.

6 Q. Yes, I take your point. That's not my issue. I'm just going to

7 read what is said there, and I just want to make sure that we were

8 together, or we were looking at the same section of the page.

9 I will read then: "Osman: It is necessary to prepare a group for

10 two bunkers. In addition to that, 45 men will set up an ambush from the

11 Sase direction. Hajro will lead 35 men ... to set up the ambush. Soson's

12 men to go with Hajro."

13 Then it talks about the ambush in Voljevica, and I would ask you

14 to go to the page that now has the number 03090742 on it. You might have

15 to turn the page.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have given him the English ERN while you

17 should have given him the --

18 MS. SELLERS: Oh, I'm sorry, we might be on the same page with the

19 B/C/S.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, and I don't know which part you are

21 going to refer him to. It could have been the same page or it could be a

22 different one.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that it might be a different

24 page, but we're in the same -- but a different ERN.

25 Q. I read a paragraph to you. The next paragraph began with the

1 ambush in Voljevica where it says: "Around 100 men in two ambushes."

2 Then it says: "Kunjerac, Mido and Semso with 20 men each from one side."

3 The next line says: "Senahid with 50 men from Zuta Zemlja." Then the

4 next line says: "Soson with 15 men plus with 15." The following line

5 says: "Ambush from Sase Hajro."

6 Mr. Tiro, my question is: After having read or heard what I read

7 out concerning a specific military task assigned to Soson's men, in

8 particular an ambush near Sase, would you entertain the possibility that

9 the men you met on the road that day were assigned a particular military

10 task?

11 A. No, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you finished with this document?

13 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. We can remove the document from

14 the witness.

15 Q. Mr. Tiro, when you were going toward Bjelovac you've testified

16 that there was a weapon that you found near the body of a photographer in

17 Kunjerac. What did you do with that weapon?

18 A. Well, I couldn't take the PAM with me, the anti-aircraft

19 machine-gun, it's a heavy weapon.

20 Q. Did you inform anyone therefore that this heavy weapon, this heavy

21 artillery, was there when you returned to Srebrenica?

22 A. No, I wasn't interested in that.

23 Q. So, Mr. Tiro, you became more interested in the affairs of

24 fighters or military affairs in January 1993 when you joined the group

25 with Ejub Golic. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it is only at that time that you became aware of members, of

3 fighters, groups. Is that your testimony?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, as a member of Mr. Golic's group, did you know anyone named

6 Asmir Golic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber who was Asmir Golic.

9 A. Asmir Golic was a member of that same group of people with

10 weapons.

11 Q. Did you also come to know someone named Huso Music?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And Sadkit Omerovic?

14 A. The name is not clear to me.

15 Q. Sadik Omerovic.

16 A. Perhaps he was with us, but I don't know that man.

17 Q. And what about a man called Hazro Kadric?

18 A. I don't know that man.

19 Q. Did you know someone named Sezma Salkanovic [phoen], Sezma

20 Salkanovic?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear whether the witness

22 said yes or no.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He said "ne." He said "ne."

24 MS. SELLERS:

25 Q. Now, Mr. Asmir Golic and Huso Music, do you know what role, if

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1 any, they played among the group that belonged to Ejub Golic, what

2 positions they might have held?

3 A. When I was in their group, I know that they were just regular

4 people with guns, just like me.

5 Q. Now, were they in the group before you joined Mr. Golic's group?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how many people were in the group with Asmir Golic and Music?

8 A. Your Honour, is this before I arrived or once I arrived in the

9 group?

10 Q. Let me clarify. Can we first ask: Before you arrived, if you

11 know, Mr. Tiro. And then I'll ask after you arrived.

12 A. I didn't have information about how many people there were before

13 I came.

14 Q. Thank you. And therefore, after you came - and I take it you

15 received information - how many people were in the group along with Asmir

16 Golic and Huso Music?

17 A. We were there in a group in that village of Cizmici, and when you

18 put us all together it was between 30 or 40 people. I really don't know

19 the exact number. I wasn't interested in knowing the exact number.

20 Q. Were you ever divided into smaller groups other than the 30 or 40

21 people?

22 A. Had we been divided, then it would have been a brigade or a

23 battalion.

24 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Tiro, were you divided into smaller groups, not what would

3 have happened if you had been. But were you divided into smaller groups?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You've also testified that you had occasion to speak to Mr. Golic

6 as a member of his group. Did you ever attend meetings with Mr. Golic or

7 Ejub Golic?

8 A. No. I didn't know that meetings were held either.

9 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Golic in the presence of other commanders

10 from Srebrenica?

11 A. No. Because I cannot even confirm who the commanders were in

12 Srebrenica and whom they considered to be a commander.

13 Q. When Mr. Golic wasn't present, was there anyone else who was at

14 least temporarily in charge of his group in Cizmici?

15 A. No. Because he wasn't able to go that far anyway.

16 Q. Now, in the group did you know of someone named Nezir Merdzic?

17 A. I just remember the name, but I don't know him.

18 Q. You don't remember whether he was in your group or not, do you?

19 A. When I was there -- I mean, I don't know if he was there or not.

20 I mean, I don't know this man.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that Mr. Tiro be shown what

23 is a new Prosecution Exhibit. The ERN number is 74 -- let me just clarify

24 this. I'm sorry, 04119568 to 04119568. It's one page, yes. It's in

25 Sanction, Your Honour.

1 Q. Mr. Tiro, before you glance at this document in front of you, do

2 you remember any incident where Nezir Merdzic was in trouble in a criminal

3 sense in Srebrenica at the end of 1994?

4 A. How could I know that when I didn't even know that man?

5 Q. Would you read the document in front of you. Is it possible that

6 you knew Nezir Merdzic as Kezo?

7 A. No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're answering to the question whether you

9 possibly knew him by the word of Kezo, or are you answering some other

10 question?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know him by name and I

12 didn't know him by this nickname, Kezo.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. So then please finish reading the

14 document that has been shown to you, and Ms. Sellers may have a question

15 after that.

16 MS. SELLERS:

17 Q. Mr. Tiro, might I read the document out loud to you?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he can read.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

20 Q. Could you -- have you had a chance to read the document?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So please proceed with your question.

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

24 Q. Are you familiar with the information, the facts, that the

25 document is talking about? In essence, that this Nezir Merdzic, Kezo, due

1 to the execution of a crime and following certain investigation, had been

2 kept in custody? Are you familiar with that?

3 A. No, Your Honour. At least on the basis of that I should be

4 familiar with the man, but this is not clear to me and I'm not aware of

5 him having committed any crime.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. This will become Prosecution Exhibit P?

7 THE REGISTRAR: P567.

8 MS. SELLERS:

9 Q. Are you familiar that Ejub Golic became the commander of the

10 Independent Mountain Battalion?

11 A. No. No, Your Honour. Because I myself was within his group and I

12 should know.

13 Q. Was Mehmed Tiro, a member of your family, a member of the

14 Independent Mountain Battalion to your knowledge?

15 A. I don't understand the question.

16 Q. Was Mehmed Tiro, I believe a family member, was he to your

17 knowledge ever a member of the Independent Mountain Battalion?

18 A. No, Your Honour. On the 21st of -- 25th, sorry, of August 1992 my

19 brother had already been captured by the Serbs.

20 Q. All right. Have you ever heard of the Independent Mountain

21 Battalion?

22 A. Your Honour, this is my reply: No, I did not hear of that because

23 in order to have an Independent Mountain Battalion you would need at least

24 500 people.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, we need to decide now --

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to consult and I might

2 possibly then just finish my cross-examination now then.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- whether we are going to keep the witness here and

4 finish him off tomorrow.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MS. SELLERS:

7 Q. Mr. Tiro, thank you. I have no further questions of you.

8 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 For the record, this last document you made use of has now become

11 Prosecution Exhibit P567.

12 Madam Vidovic, re-examination.

13 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Tiro, once again.

15 A. Good day.

16 Q. In the course of your testimony yesterday, you were asked quite a

17 few questions about what you learned in the course of your military

18 service with the JNA, and allow me to ask you the following: Your branch,

19 the mountain infantry, was a regular infantry branch or was it some kind

20 of special training at a higher level than that dispensed to normal

21 soldiers?

22 A. It was more about heavier weapons and work in the mountains.

23 Q. Mr. Tiro, as far as you know, did many people from your area serve

24 in that particular branch or were you an exception of sorts?

25 A. No. At that stage they did not particularly select people for

1 those branches. There were people of -- from all ethnic groups, all

2 cities and towns and villages.

3 Q. You misunderstood my question. What I've asked you is whether any

4 of the people from your villages, in your surroundings, any of the people

5 you knew, were you the only one who served in that particular branch,

6 mountain infantry that is, or whether any other people you knew were there

7 as well?

8 A. Yes, there were other people as well.

9 Q. You described to us your trek from Mocevici to Srebrenica at

10 around the 6th of July, 1992. Mr. Tiro, is it correct or not that only

11 the most courageous of you in Mocevici actually managed to get to

12 Srebrenica?

13 A. No, Your Honour. Whoever had enough will-power to save their

14 family could go across the woods.

15 Q. Let me put the following question to you. Is it correct that many

16 people who took that road, that is from Mocevici to Srebrenica, got killed

17 or went missing in the course of 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So it was a hazardous journey to undertake?

20 A. It was an extremely perilous journey.

21 Q. Allow me to ask you the following question. Mr. Tiro, before the

22 fall of Brezani, that is to say before the end of June 1992, do you know

23 whether it was at all possible to travel through Brezani to Srebrenica

24 taking the road that you did on the 6th of July, 1992?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Thank you. And now I'm going to ask you something with regard to

2 Srebrenica itself. At a certain point yesterday, the Prosecutor asked you

3 whether Srebrenica became a kind of safe haven or a place which was

4 slightly safer for the Muslims. And so let me ask you the following. Did

5 you in Mocevici have any other choice? That is to say, could you have

6 gone somewhere else rather than the area of Srebrenica?

7 A. No.

8 Q. For the entire period of time that you spent in Srebrenica in 1992

9 until demilitarisation, had you ever felt safe in Srebrenica or was it an

10 altogether different matter?

11 A. I never felt safe in Srebrenica.

12 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor put a whole range of questions to you

13 about barters, barter deals with regard to food being exchanged amongst

14 the people at that informal market. Mr. Tiro, could you tell us whether

15 it was the only place that those barter deals were entered into and

16 negotiated or did it happen elsewhere in villages, houses, and so on and

17 so forth?

18 A. Yes, Your Honour. I did say quite clearly yesterday that we also

19 went to the villages that were free such as Suceska and the other villages

20 closer to Srebrenica.

21 Q. Right. Now I'm going to ask you something in relation to

22 Mr. Golic. In the course of your testimony yesterday - and yes, this is

23 also with regard to the group of people that you belonged to and that you

24 were asked about today - in the course of your testimony yesterday, you

25 said that you were involved in a Swedish project, Zeleni Jadar. Do you

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1 remember that?

2 A. Yes, Your Honour. When we relinquished our arms to UNPROFOR, I

3 joined that Swedish project and I remained there until the end of 1995.

4 Q. Have I understood you correctly then that ever since

5 demilitarisation you were not within Ejub Golic's group?

6 A. No, I wasn't with them anymore.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I'll ask you something else in relation to what

8 the Prosecutor asked you with regard to Glogova. You were asked whether

9 you knew of any events having to do with Glogova prior to your joining

10 that group of people at Glogova. Upon your arrival, did you make any

11 inquiries as to what had happened previously?

12 A. Well, it was not my business to make any inquiries. I mean, all

13 the other people were in the same position as I was that came out of that

14 Muslim village.

15 Q. So your answer is no. Is that so?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were asked whether the Muslims from Srebrenica and Bratunac

18 helped one another. And can you tell us, Mr. Tiro, in case they did not

19 wish to provide assistance to one another, could anyone have ordered them

20 to do so?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You were also asked a whole range of questions pertaining to

23 Mr. Vekaz Husic. In replying to my questions yesterday and the questions

24 put to you by the Prosecutor today, you said that you found out a whole

25 range of things from Vekaz Husic including the information that there were

1 thousands of civilians in Bradjevina. Do you remember that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. When you talked to Mr. Husic, did he tell you that he was in

4 charge of civilians or that he was leading civilians or that he had them

5 under control and -- or that he directed them in any way. Do you

6 remember?

7 A. No. He was not in a position to either direct them or order them

8 to do anything whatsoever.

9 Q. Did you talk to him about that?

10 A. I didn't need to talk to him about that because on occasion I was

11 amongst those civilians as well.

12 Q. What do you mean to say?

13 A. I mean to say that Vekaz Husic was not in charge of anything, that

14 he was not in charge of those civilians.

15 Q. When you say -- when you say "I myself was amongst those

16 civilians," are you suggesting that you know what the situation was like?

17 A. Of course. At least we had quite a few experiences with that.

18 Q. And can you tell very briefly to the Trial Chamber on the basis of

19 your experience what it meant when thousands of civilians gathered in any

20 given area?

21 A. No armed group could stop them from doing anything.

22 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you something else now. You were shown a

23 part of the war diaries with regard to a person called Soson. And I'm

24 going to put this to you: You testified that you saw Soson there. Did

25 you know why he was there in the first place, sir? Did you get any

1 information whatsoever about the reasons why he was there from anyone

2 whatsoever?

3 A. No, Your Honour.

4 Q. And did you ask around?

5 A. No, because I didn't need to.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will just dwell very briefly on

8 this book that was shown to Mr. Tiro today, and I would like to ask the

9 usher to show the Exhibit P90 to the witness. That is the introductory

10 part of the book. And the page number is 02919224.

11 Your Honour, in the English text it's 00816672.

12 Q. Mr. Tiro, I'm going to read just one part of this text out to you.

13 You were told that this book was a book by Naser Oric. And let me read

14 out a part of the text to you. It says in the introduction provided by

15 the author, can you turn on the next page. You can see that it is signed

16 Naser Oric. So he explains what his attitude is. So he says: "Since war

17 is still going on and the archives are only just being sorted out, I

18 wasn't in a position to gather all the data and documented evidence that

19 could complement that book. But I did not want to make this the final

20 work on the events passed. On the contrary, I want to invite new

21 discussions and new arguments so that we may get closer to the real

22 truth."

23 Mr. Tiro, in relation to this let me ask you the following

24 question. The excerpt that I've just read out to you from this part of

25 the text, these are the words by the author, does this corroborate your

1 belief that even the author himself doesn't really know whether the data

2 set out at this book are correct?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. Thank you?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

6 questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

8 Judge Brydensholt.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes, I have only one question. I understand

11 you joined Ejub Golic's group in the middle of January in 1993. How long

12 exactly did you stay there in Cizmici?

13 A. I don't know the exact date, but I know that when the protected

14 enclave of Srebrenica was first proclaimed I gave up my weapons and I

15 joined the Swedish project, Zeleni Jadar.

16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Would that have been already in the spring of

17 1993 or would it be during the summer, or what's your recollection of

18 that?

19 A. Yes. In the second half of 1993.

20 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Okay. During the war, what did you exactly do

21 in the group of Ejub Golic? Could you explain the daily routine.

22 A. I can explain that I was obliged to protect the population. I was

23 duty-bound to the village, but it was based on my own principles and my

24 own will rather than any commands from Ejub Golic.

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Were you actually attacked during that spring,

1 1993, in the village?

2 A. The city of Bratunac and the municipality of Bratunac is nearby,

3 and it is in the direction of Zvijezda. But they did not have to launch

4 any other attacks because the shells were landing on Cizmici and the city

5 of Srebrenica and another village --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The name of which the interpreter didn't catch.

7 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: So -- so there were no infantry attack on the

8 village you guarded?

9 A. Yes, there were attempts, Your Honour, but not just Cizmici, just

10 one part Bljeceva near Cizmici. A part of that village was set on fire.

11 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: During that period did you participate in any

12 fight outside the village you protected? Did you go up to other places

13 together with other persons from the group and armed persons?

14 A. No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

17 Judge Eser.

18 JUDGE ESER: Just perhaps I have a follow-up question to Cizmici.

19 Now, you told earlier in your testimony that you have been in

20 Cizmici because you took shelter there. Is that correct? That was the

21 only place to get shelter for your group.

22 A. No, Your Honour. I didn't say to find shelter. I said to help

23 that village.

24 JUDGE ESER: Now, how big was the village?

25 A. I explained, Your Honour, that it was about 14 to 15 houses.

1 JUDGE ESER: Now -- and you also told us that your group consisted

2 of about 40 people.

3 A. I didn't give an exact figure. I said between 30 and 40 --

4 JUDGE ESER: But --

5 A. With that village.

6 JUDGE ESER: But at any rate, I don't think it's a small group, 30

7 to 40 people. Now, what is the reason why you defended this village which

8 has 14 houses with a rather large group if you compare it to other

9 villages which had -- may have had more houses and less people defending

10 the village?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour. There were more villages where lesser numbers

12 of people were defending them, but we went there because it was the only

13 village that was still left in the Bratunac municipality.

14 JUDGE ESER: So can I conclude from your answer that it was not

15 only to defend Cizmici as such but that you also defended other villages

16 if there was need for defending them?

17 A. Yes, Your Honour. Because they would have gone to Srebrenica from

18 there, in case Cizmici were to fall, that is.

19 JUDGE ESER: Now, with regard to the question which was already

20 asked how it worked within your group. I think everybody agrees that you

21 joined on a voluntary basis. It was on your free will that you joined

22 them, that you have been driven by your conscience to defend your country,

23 your people. But when you have decided to join the group, how was it

24 then? Could you just say if there was a decision taken within the group

25 you would defend such-and-such a village that you would say, I don't care?

1 Or would you feel obliged to join the group?

2 A. I did it of my own free will and I joined, and it was my duty

3 since I did have a rifle to make sure that something at least was left

4 standing.

5 JUDGE ESER: Witness, that was not my question. I fully accept

6 that it was your free decision to join the group. But could a group exist

7 or be of some value if members of a group would say, I just don't care,

8 they may do this or that. I go my own way, in a certain situation. For

9 instance, if a decision was taken to defend a certain village from an

10 attack from the Serbian side, that you would say, I stay at home. I stay

11 here. You may go, but I stay here.

12 A. Yes, Your Honour. I could have said I didn't want to go, I want

13 to stay at home in Srebrenica.

14 JUDGE ESER: Now, when you have been asked with regard to Asmir

15 Golic, you said that he was a regular -- he was a regular people that may

16 invite the question: Have there been people that have not been so regular

17 with some sort of another position within the group?

18 A. Your Honour, whilst I was with that group I only knew that we

19 listened to Ejub Golic, all of us and we didn't know of anyone else who

20 was higher up in command.

21 JUDGE ESER: So in a way you listened to Ejub Golic. Is that your

22 testimony?

23 A. I myself listened to him. He didn't make me, but I did take his

24 advice as to how to save my life.

25 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now, if a group was named after a certain

1 person, like Golic group or Hakija group, or Akif Ustic group, did it mean

2 something that a group was named after a certain person?

3 A. As for Akif Ustic, I had never heard of him and I don't know him.

4 As to Hakija, I don't know. Those are people from Srebrenica.

5 JUDGE ESER: Okay. But may I conclude from your answers that if a

6 group was called group of X or Y, that this person was a person the

7 members of a group would listen to? I do not talk of command, but at any

8 rate that if these people would say something, the members would listen

9 to.

10 A. Yes. Ejub Golic was the head of our group. And we listened to

11 him, but he didn't order us to go into fighting or to war or anything.

12 But just for the defence of the villages.

13 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Because we are short of time, I have one

14 further question. You have been asked what Naser Oric may have known of

15 the events of attacks or other events in the area of Srebrenica. And I

16 read from the transcript, that is page 42, line 17: "All I know is that

17 Naser Oric participated in the defence of Potocari."

18 Yes, that was your testimony?

19 A. Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ESER: Now, later you have been asked by the

21 Prosecution: "Would you agree Mr. Oric is someone knowledgeable about the

22 defence of Potocari or the larger Srebrenica municipality?"

23 And you answered: "On the basis of my experience, he did not have

24 to know."

25 Now, I think it's a little bit difficult to reconcile both. If

1 Naser Oric participated in the defence of Potocari that he should not have

2 known about what has -- was going on in Potocari. Do you see my point?

3 MR. JONES: It was all the larger Srebrenica municipality. That

4 was the question. And he answered that question.

5 JUDGE ESER: So at least would you agree that at least with regard

6 to Potocari that Naser Oric might have been knowledgeable about the

7 events?

8 A. Your Honour, I can't confirm that in any way because, as I said, I

9 only met Naser Oric once in the course of the war. And I didn't actually

10 know him at the time.

11 JUDGE ESER: Yeah, but if you -- if you now testify that you met

12 Naser Oric only one time, what does make you so sure that he did not know

13 about events in Potocari or in the area of Srebrenica?

14 A. I did not say for Potocari, Your Honour. I said in the area of

15 the municipality of Srebrenica. And as to Potocari, I found out that he

16 was involved when some Arkan's people entered Potocari. But as to whether

17 he was any sort of leader or not, I can't tell you.

18 JUDGE ESER: Now, how far is Potocari -- what is the distance

19 between Potocari and Srebrenica?

20 A. I don't know, Your Honour. But I think between four and four and

21 a half kilometres.

22 JUDGE ESER: No further questions.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

24 I have got a very simple question. I would like to know if your

25 brother Mehmed is still alive?

1 A. Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you Safet Memic is still alive?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That brings your testimony to an end,

5 Mr. Tiro. On behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself and also

6 on behalf of the Tribunal I should like to thank you for having come over

7 to give evidence as a Defence witness. You've testified for a long time.

8 Basically you've testified for almost 10 hours, and I should like to thank

9 you. And I would like to assure you also that you are going to receive

10 all the assistance you require now from our team to facilitate your return

11 back home at the earliest possible. On behalf of everyone present here, I

12 wish you a safe journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So tomorrow we start with the new witness.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm informed also, Madam Vidovic, that the

17 interpreters and the rest will understand me. The videotape that you

18 referred to earlier that you requested to check is available if you want

19 to check it. If there is need to check it publicly, then we do so. But I

20 suppose you can check it and together in consultation with Ms. Sellers we

21 will take for granted whatever you tell this Trial Chamber after you have

22 consulted one another. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've

24 already sorted it out with the registry. That will be ensured as far as I

25 can see.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So please God, we meet tomorrow morning

2 at 9.00. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

5 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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