1 Wednesday, 14 September, 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the

10 proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric and good morning to you. You

14 may sit down. Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and also good morning to

16 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

17 for the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia

18 Sellers, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica

19 Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

21 your team. Appearances for Naser Oric?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

23 Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I represent Mr. Naser

24 Oric. We are joined by our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our case

25 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

1 And good morning to the colleagues from the Prosecution as well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

3 and your team.

4 Any preliminaries?

5 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we can start with the witness. I

7 take it that you will need the whole of today?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And also part of tomorrow or not?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to try and finish today,

11 Your Honour. And just one other point, Your Honour. The way we've

12 organised our work is for the next witness as well, to be able to be

13 completed by the end of Friday. We believe that we'll need about an hour

14 and a half for the examination-in-chief, which would leave enough time to

15 the Prosecution of course if they agree, and we wouldn't like the witness

16 to have to stay the weekend.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That was supposed to be the arrangement that

18 we would all strive for to achieve.

19 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Of course, we will try to support

21 it, but we don't have a statement of this witness. We really should rely

22 on the summary and the developments on Friday in that respect, but you

23 should be confident that we try to support the Court in that respect. We

24 cannot give any guarantees in advance.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate, Mr. Wubben, and I'm sure the Defence

1 does as well.

2 Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, sorry. We just have a technical problem in

4 that -- I at least don't have the transcript here. I wonder if someone

5 could assist us. I think it's just my computer, so ...

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. Yes, the technician is on his way

7 or on her way.

8 MR. JONES: It's been solved by Madam Usher.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please tell the technicians that he or

10 she is not needed anymore. With our thanks.

11 So I take it that even if we finish early tomorrow with this

12 witness, you're not going to start with the next tomorrow, you'll start

13 with the next on Friday? Is that correct?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

15 MR. JONES: We would start with that witness on Friday.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Yes, Ms. Karic, good morning to

17 you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Some of us will be speaking in English, and

20 therefore there is a need for what we say to be translated into your own

21 language. And in the course of the proceedings, you will be receiving, as

22 you are now, interpretation of what we are saying in your mother tongue.

23 If at any time you are not receiving interpretation, or if the -- there is

24 something faulty with the reception, please draw our attention straight

25 away because at every moment it is important that you can follow the

1 proceedings completely. Did you understand me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So on behalf of Judge

4 Brydensholt, who is at my right, and Judge Professor Eser, who is at my

5 left, and myself, I am -- my name is Carmel Agius and I come from Malta, I

6 should like to welcome you to this Tribunal. Very soon you are going to

7 start giving evidence in this case which has been instituted against Naser

8 Oric. You are a Defence witness. In other words, you have been summoned

9 to give evidence by the Defence team. But our rules require that before

10 you start giving evidence, you make a solemn declaration that in the

11 course of the -- your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole

12 truth and nothing but the truth. Madam Usher, who is standing next to

13 you, is going to give you the text of the solemn declaration. Please take

14 it in your hands, read it out loud and that will be your solemn

15 undertaking with us.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: EDINA KARIC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Please make yourself

21 comfortable.

22 Since you are a Defence witness, it will be the Defence of

23 Mr. Oric that will start with -- start questioning you. It will be Madam

24 Vidovic who I suppose you have met already, who will be putting questions

25 to you. Later on, either today or tomorrow, she will be -- when she is --

1 she has finished with her questions she will be followed by

2 Ms. Richardson, who is the lady nearest to you on your right, and she will

3 cross-examine you.

4 Cross-examination is a right that the Prosecution has, just as the

5 accused has a right to cross-examine the Prosecution witnesses. And in

6 terms of your solemn declaration, you have a responsibility to answer all

7 questions, in other words, both those coming from Ms. Vidovic and those

8 coming from Ms. Richardson, truthfully, fully and to the best of your

9 ability. So you have no right to make any discrimination between

10 questions coming from the Defence and questions coming from the

11 Prosecution.

12 If at any time you need -- you're feeling tired or emotional and

13 you need a break, please don't hesitate. Do ask us for a short break and

14 we will give you as many breaks as you like. We will try our best to make

15 you feel comfortable in that seat over there and to try and finish with

16 your testimony by the end of our sitting tomorrow.

17 Do you understand me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, I do, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, she is in your hands.

20 WITNESS: EDINA KARIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

23 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Karic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Mrs. Karic, since we both speak the same language, I would like to

1 ask you to listen to my question and then allow for a short break which is

2 going to enable the interpreters to interpret your -- the question first

3 and then give an answer. Did you understand me?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mrs. Karic, can you confirm your name and your surname for the

6 sake of the transcript, your full name?

7 A. Yes, Edina Karic.

8 Q. Your father's name is Ahmo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. His nickname is Ibro, isn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your mother is Refija and her maiden name is Mujic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were born on the 1st of August, 1976 in Zvornik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you, Mrs. Karic, you know, when you answer questions you can

17 look at me. After your birth you lived in Lasovac which is a hamlet in

18 the local community Sase in the municipality of Srebrenica. Am I right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You finished primary school Mihajlo Balkovic [phoen] at Sase?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have two sons: Alen who was born in 1993; and Elvis, born in

23 1995?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your former husband's name is Mesud Halilovic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You have a brother called Adin, and your sisters are called

3 Ahmedina, Norfija, Zemina. They are all younger than you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mrs. Karic, prior to this testimony, I had suggested to you that

6 you could benefit from certain protective measures; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I had also suggested for certain parts of your testimony to be

9 provided in private session.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you did not wish to do so.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You also said that you had nothing to be ashamed of in the course

14 of your testimony.

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me clarify the

17 reasons why the witness wishes for everything to be said in the public

18 session. And --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: She -- is that necessary, Ms. Vidovic? The

20 position, as you know it, as we all know it, if at any time she wants to

21 go into private session, we rarely say no. We very rarely say no. That's

22 number one. So the offer is there. If she doesn't ask for private

23 session, I mean, we continue in public session. So --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. You will have the opportunity

25 to assess why I've said what I said.

1 Q. Now I'd like to ask the usher to show the witness a map, a map of

2 the area of Bratunac.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We may also decide on our own steam to go into

4 private session, if we consider that it is in the best interest of the

5 witness to do so, even if the witness doesn't ask for it. So I'm making

6 that very clear, and I am sure that you as an experienced judge and lawyer

7 will understand. So ...

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you get the map, Witness?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. May I ask you now to show and mark on the map your own village,

14 the village of Lasovac?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Can you just mark Lasovac and circle it? Yes, thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now I'd like you to mark the following villages: Sase,

20 Odloznik -- Podloznik, sorry, Irici [phoen], Biljaca, Prisoj, Zaluzje, and

21 Voljavica. These villages that you have just indicated, were those Serb

22 or Muslim villages before the war?

23 A. Before the war, those were Muslim villages.

24 Q. On the basis of what you knew that those were Muslim villages?

25 A. I knew it because my parents told me about it, and I knew it

1 because of the clothes people used to wear, and I also had relatives in

2 those villages.

3 Q. Could you now indicate Gradina to us?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what was at Gradina before the war?

6 A. The headquarters of the Sase mine was situated in Gradina.

7 Q. How do you know that?

8 A. I know it because my father used to work in the mine and he worked

9 at Gradina.

10 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the ethnic makeup of the

11 population around Gradina and around the mine?

12 A. It was Muslim except for one family that was called Tubic.

13 Q. So that family was the only Serb family, Tubic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. May I ask you to indicate the village of Azlica to the Trial

16 Chamber?

17 Then Zalazje, Obadi, Kostanovice, Neskovici, Pobrdje, and Rakovac?

18 And now, Ms. Karic, are these Serb or Muslim villages?

19 A. These are Serb villages.

20 Q. Could you now please indicate Bjelovac and Sikiric?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of that population before the war?

23 A. There was mixed population there.

24 Q. As to Lasovac itself, I mean your village, you said it was a

25 Muslim village. How many houses were there in your village before the

1 war?

2 A. About 30.

3 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the Serb village

4 bordering on your village?

5 A. The Serb village bordering on my village was Kostanovice or rather

6 the hamlet called Jaruge.

7 Q. Can you indicate Jaruge on the map and mark it on the map?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. As far as I'm informed, the hamlet of Jaruge is not marked on the

10 map, but could you please mark the place where you believe that hamlet is

11 by a J?

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where exactly your

14 house was situated within your village, the village of Lasovac, that is?

15 A. Our house in the village of Lasovac was at the very beginning of

16 the village; in other words, right across the road from the hamlet called

17 Jaruge.

18 Q. How far were the closest houses from the Serb hamlet of Jaruge

19 from your own house?

20 A. About a hundred metres as the crow flies or maybe 200 metres, if

21 you walk down the road.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Do you remember who those houses belonged

23 to, what Serbs they belonged to?

24 A. Yes, I do. They belonged to Bosko Rankic, his sons Petko Rankic,

25 called Pero, and his other son called Bato Rankic.

1 Q. Do you remember whether in the vicinity of the house that belonged

2 to the Rankic family, there was another house belonging to another Serb

3 family that you knew?

4 A. Yes, I do remember. Not too far away there was a house owned by

5 Novak Stjepanovic called Krke.

6 Q. Do you remember who he used to live with in that house?

7 A. Yes, I do. He lived with his father Zivko and his brothers,

8 Ilija, Ivan and Ljubo, and his sister called Janja.

9 Q. How far was that house from your own?

10 A. It was about 200 metres away as the crow flies.

11 Q. Did you know any other people from Jaruge?

12 A. Yes, I did. I knew all of them. There were the following

13 families there, another Rankic family apart from the ones I've already

14 mentioned, as well as the family called Stjepanovic.

15 Q. Thank you. And how far is Kostanovice from your own house?

16 A. About a kilometre.

17 Q. Did you know any people from Kostanovice, any Serbs from

18 Kostanovice, I mean?

19 A. Yes, I did, I knew them all.

20 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what a colony is?

21 A. Yes. Or, rather, Sase was divided into two parts, the upper

22 Kolonija and the lower Kolonija, which means that the lower Kolonija was

23 basically lower Sase.

24 Q. Could you show to the Trial Chamber on the map, please, what was

25 the part of Sase that you used to call lower Kolonija and what it actually

1 is?

2 A. On the map, the part we called Donja Kolonija, lower Kolonija, is

3 starting from the primary school all the way to the house that belonged to

4 the Rankic family. On both right and left, those houses were called

5 Donja Kolonija.

6 Q. You mean on the right and the left side of the road? Have I

7 understood you correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please, could you mark DK on the map, this part that you've just

10 marked?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Ms. Karic, how far was Donja Kolonija from your own house?

13 A. About 70 metres as the crow flies.

14 Q. Did you know anyone from Donja Kolonija?

15 A. I knew everyone.

16 Q. Do you remember the Serb families who used to live in

17 Donja Kolonija?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you give us the names of those families, if you can remember

20 them?

21 A. They are called Djokanovic, Milovanovic, Petrovic, Savinovic

22 [phoen].

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who lived in upper Sase,

24 Gornje Sase?

25 A. Muslims.

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1 Q. You told us that you attended school in Sase. Did Serb children

2 attend the same school before the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the course of 1991, did those children talk about the war?

5 A. Yes, they did. They said that their relatives were going to war

6 in Croatia.

7 Q. At that time, you attended the eighth year of primary school

8 according to the former Yugoslav system, you were 15 years old. Is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the other children who talked about these things were also 15

12 years old?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that time, that is in the course of 1991, did you see any

15 people wearing uniforms in those Serb villages that we had mentioned

16 earlier on?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Just a second. Can you tell me whether you remember any of those

19 uniformed men? Did you know any of those people?

20 A. Yes, I do remember, Novak Stjepanovic, nicknamed Krke, Dragan

21 Petrovic, Krke's brother, Ivan and Ljuba. They were from Jaruge. And as

22 to Donja Kolonija, I remember Zvonko Djokanovic, Sasa Cvetkovic, and

23 Zeljko Djokanovic.

24 Q. How old were they at the time; do you remember?

25 A. They were young. None of them was older than 25, apart from Novak

1 Stjepanovic, who was around 28 at the time.

2 Q. If you remember, was there anything happening at the beginning of

3 1992 that worried your parents?

4 A. Yes. Right at the beginning of 1992, Serb women and children left

5 their houses en masse, leaving to an unknown place for us.

6 Q. During April 1992, did you notice anything specific in your

7 village, in your environs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What?

10 A. At the very beginning of April, I noticed that Serbs were setting

11 up a block near our house, a block on the road.

12 Q. How far was the ramp on the road from your parents' house?

13 A. About 70 metres as the crow flies.

14 Q. Next to the ramp, did they set up anything else?

15 A. Yes, I do remember. On the left, they put some sandbags and

16 created a shelter for themselves, and on the other side of the ramp, they

17 brought some sort of a container.

18 Q. During April 1992, could you personally see people moving around

19 or at the ramp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember who they were?

22 A. Pero Rankic, Bato Rankic, Novak Stjepanovic, called Krke, and his

23 brothers, Ilija, Ivan and Ljubo. Dragan Petrovic, Djokanovic from

24 Donja Kolonija, Cvetkovic and Milovanovic.

25 Q. Were there any other people that you didn't know?

1 A. Yes, many other people that I didn't know at the time.

2 Q. The people you mentioned, the -- did they used to spend sometime

3 around the ramp? What were they doing there?

4 A. They wouldn't stay for too long. They would assemble there and

5 then they would leave together.

6 Q. Did you notice if someone stood guard at the ramp?

7 A. Yes. There were the elderly guarding the ramp usually.

8 Q. The people that you mentioned who assembled at the ramp, were they

9 Serbs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In April of 1992, the people that you saw assembling at the ramp,

12 what were they wearing when you saw them?

13 A. Some of them wore uniforms of the former JNA and some had

14 camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. At that time, since you were 15, did you know what the former JNA

16 uniforms looked like?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did you know that?

19 A. We knew because during peacetime, many young boys went to serve

20 their military service with the JNA.

21 Q. When you say camouflage uniform, what does it look like?

22 A. It is grey, brown and green.

23 Q. You mean multi-coloured?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You mentioned a person, by the name of Novak Stjepanovic, aka

1 Krke. Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What sort of uniform was he wearing at the time, if you remember?

4 A. Yes. On occasion he would wear a black one and sometimes he was

5 wearing a camouflage uniform.

6 Q. Could he often be seen standing at the ramp?

7 A. No. He usually just passed by, and when they were about to

8 assemble there he was always at the ramp.

9 Q. The people you mentioned that you saw them in April of 1992, were

10 they armed, these Serbs?

11 A. Yes, they were all armed. They had rifles and grenades. Some

12 also had long, large knives.

13 Q. You meant they wore them?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did your father have anything to say? Did he have any comments

16 about those weapons, about the rifles?

17 A. Yes. He said that these were automatic rifles and semi-automatic

18 rifles.

19 Q. Apart from the people at the ramp, who you mentioned you saw in

20 April of 1992, did you see any other people in your environment, armed

21 people?

22 A. Yes. At the ramp, I saw people assembling as well as at certain

23 locations near their houses, and they would then go across meadows towards

24 the villages of Andrici, Obadi and Jarlica [phoen].

25 Q. Can you remember when was it that you saw that?

1 A. After mid-April, or beginning -- no, mid-April, I believe.

2 Q. Those other people that you saw were armed, what did they wear?

3 A. They were also uniformed, and they had some uniforms of the former

4 JNA.

5 Q. Could you please tell me how far Obadi is from your house? I

6 think you said that already.

7 A. Yes. Obadi is about one kilometre away as the crow flies.

8 Q. Did you see any movement between your village and Obadi?

9 A. Yes. I saw a line of armed and uniformed Serbs leaving towards

10 those villages across meadows.

11 Q. When you say "I saw that," where did you see that from? Where

12 were you?

13 A. I could see that clearly from my own house, through my window.

14 Q. You and your parents, in April of 1992, so we are talking about

15 April of 1992, did you hear of any events in Bratunac?

16 A. Yes. We heard it on the news, on television, that some Arkan and

17 Seselj's men attacked Bijeljina and Zvornik and that they were

18 slaughtering people and imprisoning Muslims.

19 Q. Perhaps you misunderstood me. But apart from that, the things you

20 heard about Bijeljina and Zvornik, did you hear of anything specific,

21 either you or your parents, relating to Bratunac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who did you hear it from?

24 A. From my relative, Mujic Raja [phoen].

25 Q. This relative of yours, did she come to your house, to your

1 village, and then told you that?

2 A. She happened to have been in Ljubovija in the hospital there. She

3 spent sometime in Bratunac and managed to break through to our villages

4 together with a lot of Muslims.

5 Q. And then she told you something?

6 A. Yes. She told us that in Bratunac Muslims are being killed.

7 Q. Did she say who was killing them?

8 A. Yes. She said that Arkan's and Seselj's men were doing that. As

9 well as Novak Stjepanovic, aka Krke, who she knew very well, as well as

10 other Serbs.

11 Q. Did she mention some locations, specifically, where that took

12 place?

13 A. Yes. She mentioned the school of Vuk Karadzic as well as the

14 stadium in Bratunac.

15 Q. When she mentioned Stjepanovic, Krke, what did she say? Where did

16 she receive that information and how she came to know about the events at

17 the school?

18 A. When she was fleeing from Bratunac, she joined a group of Muslims.

19 They had previously been released from Vuk Karadzic school.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher kindly put a

22 document, rather an exhibit, before the witness? It is an excerpt from a

23 book called, "Satan's Sons," written by Sejo Omeragic. Your Honours, this

24 man is not a historian.

25 Q. On page 167, I wanted to read out a paragraph. Witness, could you

1 please direct your attention to page 167? Do you have that in front of

2 you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "Novak Stjepanovic, aka Krke, came into the hall-camp, wearing a

5 solemn black miner's suit, splashed with blood. He leisurely carried a

6 wooden hammer with blood dripping from it. Pero Rankic from Kostanovac

7 was with him: 'Is there anyone from Prisoj and Biljaca?' Stjepanovic

8 asked. There was nobody and they immediately left. It seemed to all ...

9 detainees that they had discovered a part of the secret from the hangar.

10 Novak Stjepanovic, Krke, could be the beast who killed people with a

11 hammer and threw them into a canal filled with oil."

12 Ms. Karic, that passage that I've read out to you, does that tally

13 with what you were told by your relative as she heard that from other

14 people who were fleeing from Bratunac?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this exhibit be

17 assigned -- could this document be assigned an exhibit number, please?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's -- what's the next number, Madam Registrar,

19 please? D75 --

20 THE REGISTRAR: D750, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. So this exhibit, which is in B/C/S

22 language consists of four pages, and in the English language also has four

23 pages, is being tendered, received and marked as Defence Exhibit D750.

24 Does the witness know Sejo Omeragic, by any chance? Does the

25 witness know this person?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask her. I mean, it will comfort us to know

3 that.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, do you know the person who wrote this book, the author,

6 Mr. Sejo Omeragic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you now please direct your attention again at

9 the map that you have in front of you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Ms. Vidovic, we haven't given this map

11 an exhibit number as yet. I suggest that we do so. It should have been

12 given 750 actually. Can we remedy that, Madam Registrar? Can we give the

13 map 750 and the last document 751 instead? We can still do that? So the

14 map will be 750, D750.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, since I

16 will be using this map again. I didn't ask for the number yet.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And the extract from Sejo Omeragic's book, "Satanski

18 Sinovi" will be given Defence Exhibit number D751.

19 I trust that both parties have entered the correction in their

20 data bank. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, on this map I hope you have it still in front of you,

23 could you show us the road between Bjelovac towards Srebrenica, and tell

24 us what locations it passes by?

25 A. Yes. The road between Bjelovac and Srebrenica --

1 Q. Could you go -- could you start with Bjelovac.

2 A. Bjelovac, Prisoj, Biljaca, Neskovici, Kostanovice, Donja Kolonija,

3 to Pod Gradina and it forks there. One road takes towards Gornje Sase,

4 the other one towards the village of Zaluzje.

5 Q. The road that continues towards Zaluzje, do you know if it

6 eventually comes to Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. The road that you've shown us, does it pass close to your house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How far from your house?

11 A. Around 70 metres as the crow flies.

12 Q. How is it situated in relation to your house?

13 A. I can see it from my house. So from Pero Rankic's house, all the

14 way up to school, that's the part that was visible from my house.

15 Q. What I wanted to know is whether the road passes below or above

16 your house.

17 A. Above.

18 Q. And what was the portion of the road that you could see?

19 A. About one kilometre of it.

20 Q. If you remember, did you see anything taking place on that road in

21 April of 1992?

22 A. Yes. I saw a line of cars.

23 Q. When was it?

24 A. In the second half of April of 1992.

25 Q. Did you see whether anything was ahead or in front of that column?

1 A. Yes. A police car was there.

2 Q. Was it a military column or were those civilian cars?

3 A. Those were civilian vehicles.

4 Q. Did you at any moment see the people who were travelling in those

5 vehicles?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you see them?

8 A. Because they stopped at the ramp that I mentioned previously, and

9 they assembled there.

10 Q. Assemble or grouped, but I wanted to ask you the following: Did

11 they contact with anyone from the village that was next to the ramp?

12 A. Yes. They had contact with the Serbs from Jaruge and

13 Donja Kolonija.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of those people?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you recognise?

17 A. Novak Stjepanovic, aka Krke, Pero Rankic, Bato Rankic, Dragan

18 Veselinovic, Mijo Cvetkovic, his full name is Miodrag, Sasa Cvetkovic,

19 Zeljko -- Slobodan Djokanovic, his son Zeljko, Zvonko Djokanovic, his

20 brothers Tomo --

21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Pero Rankic. Is that the same person

22 that was mentioned in the book, the Satan's Sons, that -- as someone who

23 accompanied Stjepan Kerkanovic [as interpreted]?

24 A. He is the same person.

25 Q. In the area of Kostanovice, is there another Pero Rankic?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You mentioned the column. You said it stopped. What happened

3 afterwards?

4 A. Our Serb neighbours joined them, the people that I mentioned, and

5 they left in the direction towards the school.

6 Q. I'm talking about that particular column. Did you see it again at

7 any time?

8 A. Yes. It returned on the same day.

9 Q. How much time elapsed?

10 A. Five to six hours.

11 Q. Was it the same column or did it appear to look differently?

12 A. It was much longer on its return.

13 Q. Could you describe what it consisted of now?

14 A. There were lots of trucks that were loaded with furniture,

15 appliances, cattle, and luxurious vehicles were also to be seen in the

16 column.

17 Q. What was your mother's reaction? Did she see the come column?

18 A. Yes, we all saw it. She got scared and she said that they must

19 have robbed Srebrenica.

20 Q. The people in the column, how did they behave?

21 A. They were drunk, disorderly, they were shooting, and singing some

22 Chetnik songs.

23 Q. Did the column simply pass through your village as well as the

24 neighbouring village of Jaruge or did they stay there for a while?

25 A. No. One column continued to Bjelovac. The other one went to the

1 hamlet of Jaruge.

2 Q. Do you remember exactly what vehicles came there and did you see

3 perhaps what was the load on those vehicles?

4 A. To Jaruge, there came one truck with cattle, furniture,

5 appliances, as well as a number of luxurious vehicles that accompanied the

6 truck.

7 Q. Do you remember if that part of the column went towards certain

8 houses or in some other direction?

9 A. Yes. It went towards the house of Novak Stjepanovic and the

10 Rankic family who lived there.

11 Q. The event you described with the column, did it happen on only one

12 occasion or on several?

13 A. It occurred on several occasions, until the 10th of May of 1992.

14 Q. When you observed the column, could you notice something specific

15 or peculiar about it on their departure and on their return?

16 A. Yes. I noticed the police car that was ahead of the column, and

17 when they came back, its lights were on.

18 Q. In relation to the event you described, did you and your family

19 know what was happening with the Muslims in your wider area?

20 A. A lot of Muslims came to our village. They were frightened,

21 fleeing from surrounding Muslim villages because they said they were being

22 encircled by the Serbs and that they were killing them or taking people

23 away.

24 Q. You didn't see that, did you?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. Did you hear about that from someone?

2 A. Yes. We heard that from many Muslims who came to our houses and

3 to our village.

4 Q. Do you remember anyone in particular who came to your village or

5 to your house and told you about those events?

6 A. Yes. I remember Izet Latifovic who happened to be in the village

7 of Biljaca at the time. He suffered a shock because the village was

8 encircled by the Serbs and they invited the Muslims to surrender. They

9 took away many Muslims and he saw a murder take place. He fainted and

10 that's how he survived. He came to several hours later and managed to

11 come to our village. During that time, his father thought him dead, and

12 committed suicide. He poisoned himself.

13 Q. Did Mr. Latifovic tell you that personally in your house?

14 A. He said that to my parents but I was close and I could overhear.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: If I may, I hate to interrupt but could we

16 perhaps have a date? Are we talking about May of 1992 at this point? If

17 Madam Vidovic could just inquire.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, I was going to raise the same

19 issue myself basically so if you could address it, please.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You were describing something that took place in the second half

22 of April of 1992, I believe, and then I asked you did you at that time

23 have any knowledge about somethings that were happening. Perhaps you

24 could tell the Chamber when was it that Mr. Latifovic came to your house?

25 A. It was around mid-May.

1 Q. So in the first half of May of 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now please show to

4 the witness an excerpt from the book that was marked as D751? We have

5 another portion. And we provided it with the bundle. It is another

6 passage from the book called, "Satan's Sons" written by Sejo Omeragic.

7 Q. Ms. Karic, I wanted to read out a small portion from the book.

8 Please take a look at that passage.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague has just

10 drawn my attention to something, to a part of the transcript that may be

11 unclear, and perhaps I could clarify with the witness before we start

12 reading the next excerpt.

13 Q. Witness, when you mentioned the gentleman a minute ago who came to

14 your house, you said he fainted and that that was how he survived. What

15 did you mean by that?

16 A. He fled into the woods, and he saw a murder or murders take place

17 in Biljaca and when the Serbs were inviting Muslims to surrender by

18 megaphone, and he saw Serbs surround the village and torch it, he fainted,

19 so they simply passed him by. They thought he was dead. When he came to,

20 he was frightened but managed to reach our village.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness, for the clarification.

22 Now I want to read the passage: On May 13, about 1.000 arrested

23 men and women from Podsoj were beaten and pushed towards the town. The

24 last Muslim villages around Bratunac will be destroyed by Serb neighbours.

25 They called people by megaphone in Bojici, Biljaca, Prisoj, Zaluzje and

1 Bjelovac, to gather ... at Srbo Jokic's house in Podbradze and to bring

2 their ... documents with them. People abandoned their houses, and

3 plunderers burnt them down and came right after them. The following

4 people plundered and burnt down houses: Ratko Simic from Kunjerac, Nedjo

5 and Pedja Rakic, Zvonko and Zeljko Djokanovic, and Dragan Jovanovic, aka

6 Tanto.

7 Concerning this I wanted to ask you the following. I believe you

8 mentioned Zvonko and Zeljko Djokanovic on two occasions already. Did you

9 see them in the column that you saw leaving and coming back?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This description of events here which includes the events at

12 Biljaca, is this in line with what Mr. Latifovic told you about?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Witness, did you find out about any of your relations having been

16 killed in the beginning of May 1992?

17 A. Yes. I found out that my cousin, Kiram Mujic, had been killed.

18 His body was found by the River Drina in Bjelovac.

19 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you how long you stayed in your

20 own village. Can you remember that?

21 A. Yes. We stayed up until the 16th or the 17th of May 1992.

22 Q. Apart from these events that you've described to us, in the course

23 of May 1992, and what I mean is the period up until the 16th or the 17th,

24 that is to say before you left, did anything happen in the course of that

25 period of time that gave the Muslims from Lasovac cause for concern?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was it?

3 A. Serbs were shooting from their villages, and from the ramp I

4 mentioned earlier on there was a shooting on a daily basis, and it would

5 frighten us and we would take to the nearest woods, and hide in the woods

6 until the shooting stops, and then when it finally stopped we would go

7 back home.

8 Q. And did anything happen that induced you to leave your houses?

9 A. Yes. One night, after midnight, we are talking about the 16th or

10 the 17th of May 1992 here, at some point just after midnight, there was a

11 great deal of shooting, and I was terribly frightened and that was the

12 first shock of that sort that I experienced in my whole life, and we were

13 terribly scared. My sisters and my brother were scared as well. And then

14 the shooting would stop briefly and then resume again in the early morning

15 hours, but then shells started landing on our village as well, and a shell

16 landed very close to our house, and the whole house shook, and the window

17 panes were broken.

18 Q. What did your parents decide?

19 A. We were all in a state of shock. We were terribly frightened and

20 my parents decided that we had to leave the house and that we had to take

21 to the woods.

22 Q. And do you remember where you went to?

23 A. We went in the direction of a wood above the village Lasovac in

24 the direction of Bare.

25 Q. Did you see anyone else on your way? Were you the only ones

1 fleeing?

2 A. No. We were certainly not the only ones. We came across quite a

3 few Muslims in the woods, and they were all just as frightened as we were.

4 There were people who were sick, there were screaming children, and it was

5 terrible. People were screaming and wailing and everybody was distressed.

6 Q. In the course of that flight, could you move freely or were there

7 any combat activities?

8 A. As we were moving through the woods in the direction of that hill,

9 well, they were shelling all the time and a shell actually landed pretty

10 close to us, and my youngest sister had a huge shock and she was actually

11 unable to speak for several days.

12 Q. And finally, did you find some accommodation?

13 A. Yes. We got to Bare. This was deep in the forest. It was out in

14 the open. And when we got there, there were thousands of Muslim refugees

15 in the area, and children were crying and people had nothing to eat, in

16 fact, and we slept outdoors and we made tents and sheds using plastic bags

17 or branches, and it was raining. And it was really horrific.

18 Q. How did the people live? What did they eat? Can you tell us?

19 A. Sometimes people went without food for several days, or else they

20 would pick mushrooms or leaves.

21 Q. And did you at any point decide to go back to your own home?

22 A. Yes. One day after about 10 to 11 days that we spent in the

23 forest, we had no food left and we decided to go home to get some food,

24 and to get our cattle.

25 Q. And do you remember what happened next?

1 A. As we set out and we were on our way back to our home, we were

2 surrounded by three soldiers.

3 Q. What were they wearing?

4 A. They were wearing uniforms and they were armed.

5 Q. Did you know any of those people, any of those people who captured

6 you?

7 A. Yes, I knew all of them.

8 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber who they were?

9 A. They were Petar Rankic, called Pero, Stanislav Milovanovic, called

10 Cane, and Dragan Petrovic.

11 Q. Have I understood you correctly, Rankic Petko or Rankic Petar?

12 A. Petko Rankic called Pero.

13 Q. And what happened then?

14 A. We were taken to Sase mine at Gradina.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I'd like the usher

16 to show the witness a Defence document, D92. It's a document coming from

17 the command of the Bratunac Brigade of the 4th Battalion and it is

18 entitled, "The list of conscripts of the battalion for December 1992."

19 Q. I would like to draw your attention to page 3. It's number

20 01320785. Or, rather, 84. So actually it's page 2.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours. My

22 pages are mixed up in this document.

23 Q. Can you take a look at page 4. And it's actually 785; those are

24 the three last digits.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the next one, please, it's the next one, in the

1 English language. But I don't think we need to see the English text

2 because I suppose what we are interested in or what we should be

3 interested in is the list itself. So if you can just leave it in the

4 hands of the witness and then we'll -- we can follow in a different

5 manner.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, can you take a look at the name, number 79, Stanislav

8 Milovanovic, son of Radoje; do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then number 100.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Petko Rankic, son of Bosko. And now 102, Dragan Petrovic, son of

13 Tatomir. Do you know these people?

14 A. Yes. They are the people who captured us.

15 Q. Did these people take you to the mine at Sase?

16 A. Yes. They took us to the administrative building of the mine of

17 the Sase mine.

18 Q. Could we just clarify this a little bit? Who else was there? Who

19 was captured apart from you?

20 A. I was with my father and my aunt, Begajeta Mujic.

21 Q. I would like to ask the witness to stick to this document because

22 we will be using it later on as well.

23 So on your way to Sase mine, did you see anything else?

24 A. Yes, I did. In Donja Kolonija, I saw that my neighbour Idriz's

25 house was on fire.

1 Q. Was your neighbour Idriz a Muslim?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you were brought to the Sase mine, what did you see there?

4 A. I saw very many soldiers there, uniformed and armed soldiers.

5 Q. How many, roughly speaking?

6 A. About a hundred.

7 Q. Now I'd like to ask the usher to show the witness another Defence

8 Exhibit; it is document D327. It comes from the command of the Bratunac

9 Brigade and military police dated the 24th of February, 1993,

10 entitled, "Report on the number of men of the military police force and

11 the pertinent particulars of the members."

12 Witness, I'd like you to take a look at pages 2 and 3. And can

13 you focus on the names that I'm going to point out to you?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is page 1 in the

15 English translation, the first bit that I'm going to be reading out now.

16 Q. So the first name I want you to focus on is Radivoje, son of

17 Zivan, Djokanovic, born on the 20th of May, 1961, mobilised with reserve

18 police force of Srebrenica on the 14th of April, 1992. Did police work in

19 the territory of the Sase mine.

20 Now, we've got the second person, the second name, on this list,

21 Lazo Loncarevic, son of Radovan, born on the 27th of December, 1958. He

22 and his family moved from Vitez to Doboj where he was mobilised to the

23 front around Vukovar. On arrival in Bratunac with a group of refugees

24 from Zenica, he was assigned to the military police squad at the Sase

25 mine.

1 Now, a little bit further down, the third name, from below,

2 Milomir Veselinovic, son of Vlado, born on the 12th of April, 1949.

3 Mobilised at reserve police in Srebrenica on the 14th of April, 1992, and

4 discharged routine duties in the territory of the Sase mine.

5 Now we've got the next page. The second name, Miodrag Cvetkovic,

6 son of Milan, born on the 1st of March, 1950. Mobilised on the 19th of

7 April, 1992 to the reserve police force in Srebrenica, where he discharged

8 duties in the area of the Sase mine.

9 Now, witness, can you tell us if you know any of the people whose

10 names I've read out to you?

11 A. Yes. I know Radivoje Djokanovic and Miodrag Cvetkovic.

12 Q. Could you tell us where they were from?

13 A. They were from Donja Kolonija.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it that she doesn't know the third person

15 or I think -- because you mentioned three names. So you could put the

16 question yourself.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yes, Witness. You told us that you knew two of these people,

19 Djokanovic and Cvetkovic; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know the other two?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Right. Can you tell us whether you remember any event having to

24 do with Miodrag Cvetkovic in relation to the place where you were taken,

25 the Sase mine, that is?

1 A. Yes, I do. I remember an event, he caught two children, Fahrudin

2 Huremovic's children, and they were captured two days before we were

3 captured.

4 Q. How did you find that out?

5 A. When we came to the hall where we were imprisoned, those children

6 told us about it because he was their next-door neighbour.

7 Q. On that day when you got there and you found about a hundred

8 people there, did you see any of them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who did you see?

11 A. I saw them, I saw Djokanovic --

12 Q. No, no, no. I'm only asking about these two people who we've just

13 mentioned.

14 A. Yes. I saw both of them, Radivoje Djokanovic and Miodrag

15 Cvetkovic.

16 Q. Thank you. As to these hundred soldiers that you described having

17 seen, what sort of uniforms did they have and do you remember if they had

18 uniforms?

19 A. Yes, I do remember they all had uniforms. They had camouflage

20 uniforms and the older ones had the former JNA uniforms. In other words,

21 all younger soldiers were wearing camouflage uniforms.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like the witness to

23 be shown Defence Exhibit D97, which is a video document. I think it is --

24 it has already been prepared so we can view it now.

25 Q. Can you see the scene on the video?

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this Defence

3 Exhibit D97 is a video which was recorded on the 15th of December in the

4 area of Bjelovac.

5 Q. Witness, I'd like you to take a good look at this picture. These

6 100 soldiers approximately that you've described to us, when you saw them,

7 were they wearing something resembling the uniforms that you can see on

8 the screen?

9 A. Yes. They were wearing these uniforms, but they were wearing

10 shirts, camouflage shirts as well.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. How are we going to

13 identify for the record this page or this photo or picture that we have?

14 Because I don't see, except 02.31 at the bottom right-hand corner. Is

15 that the reference? Okay. So for the record --

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's the

17 reference.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness was shown for the record a part, a

19 still, from the video mentioned by Madam Vidovic, at the position 02.31.

20 All right?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to this --

22 there is another question I'd like to put to the witness.

23 Q. Take a good look at this picture. Do any people have different

24 uniforms? Just look at the person who is in the background?

25 A. Yes. Yes. It's a different uniform.

1 Q. Is it the olive-drab uniform?

2 A. I can't see it very clearly in this picture but it certainly

3 resembles that.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to go back to the events

5 that you've described to us. When you arrived at Sase, where were you,

6 your father and your aunt taken?

7 A. We were taken to the administrative building of the mine.

8 Q. Were there any other people there?

9 A. Yes, about 30 people, about 30 captured Muslims.

10 Q. Where were they from; do you remember?

11 A. I do. They were from the nearby village, Gradina, and then of us

12 course from the village of Lasovac.

13 Q. And what happened to you when you entered the administrative

14 building?

15 A. We were taken for individual questioning.

16 Q. Were you yourself taken for questioning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember who interrogated you?

19 A. Yes. It was Dragan Veselinovic.

20 Q. Who is he? Do you remember where he was from, for example?

21 A. Yes. He was from Donja Kolonija. He was a neighbour of mine.

22 Q. Had you known him before the war?

23 A. Yes. He had an older brother who was a police officer, and he had

24 two sisters, two twin sisters.

25 Q. Witness, so far you've told us that you --

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, is this person one of the -- that you

2 referred the witness to earlier on, when you were --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... it's a

5 different one, is it?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but no.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. The

9 transcript has been corrected. Yes, let's take it easy.

10 Q. You've told us so far that you knew quite a few neighbours there,

11 including Mr. Veselinovic. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber

12 what the mentality of that area is? How come you knew all these people?

13 A. Because we used to play together when we were children. I mean,

14 it is not like it is in the west. We visit one another on holidays, and

15 we all lived together in harmony, all of us together.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you, Witness, I think you still

17 have the document, the list that we have looked at earlier on?

18 A. I do not, in fact.

19 Q. D92, D9-2. Could you just leave it with the witness until the

20 end? Because we shall be going back to it.

21 On page 1, where it says the list of conscripts of the

22 4th Battalion for the salaries in December 1992, and could you look at the

23 name, number 2, Dragan Veselinovic, son of Slavomir, who is a deputy

24 commander. Did you know that man?

25 A. Yes. This was the person who was questioning us.

1 Q. Thank you. How long did you spend at that mine altogether?

2 A. About two weeks.

3 Q. What was actually at the mine when you were there?

4 A. It was one of the worst possible camps.

5 Q. On the basis of what can you claim that?

6 A. When we came to that hall, I saw the detainees who had been there

7 before. They were frightened and you could see that they had been beaten

8 because there were bruises on their bodies and faces.

9 Q. Did any one of them tell you anything?

10 A. Yes. They told us that a couple of days before our arrival, six

11 people had been killed, six Muslims who had also been imprisoned there.

12 Q. Who actually told you this?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In that family called Omic, was there a Mrs. Omic who was a Croat?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We need for the record to include something that the

17 interpreters missed. Your question was who actually told you this. And

18 she did give an answer but the interpreters didn't catch it. So I think

19 we need to go back to that. You repeat your question.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You said that your neighbours told you about the killings of six

22 people. Who exactly told you that? Can you repeat that?

23 A. Yes. The family called Omic.

24 Q. So it was the Omic family. In that family, was there a Croat

25 woman in that family?

1 A. Yes. Yes. She was called Gordana, and she had two children.

2 Q. Thank you. What did the members of the Omic family tell you? Who

3 had been killed?

4 A. Three women and three men had been killed. Rijad Salihovic's

5 parents had been killed.

6 Q. Was the child present when it happened?

7 A. Yes. The child actually witnessed the whole thing.

8 Q. Was it also witnessed by anyone else?

9 A. Yes. Everybody present witnessed that.

10 Q. Witness, sometimes we perhaps speak too fast.

11 Can you just tell us, you mentioned a child who witnessed the

12 killing of his parents. Could you repeat his name?

13 A. Rijad Salihovic.

14 Q. Okay. Did they tell you who killed them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who?

17 A. Novak Stjepanovic, Krke, with a group of soldiers.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one moment. We've

20 got another document in relation to this. I'd like to have shown to the

21 witness. I'd like the usher to show the witness the document from the

22 military post in Bratunac, the list of people who received reimbursement

23 for business travel and payroll for July 1992. It's 0336289 [as

24 interpreted].

25 Q. Witness, on page 1, or rather you should look on page 2,

1 number 364, it says the reconnaissance sabotage platoon, and number

2 is 364, Novak Stjepanovic, first class soldier. Is this the person you've

3 been mentioning so far?

4 A. Yes. That's the one.

5 Q. Did you ever hear about him having a rank of any sort? Because

6 you said that he was in the army in Croatia. Has anyone ever mentioned

7 anything about him holding a rank?

8 A. Yes. When we went to school, children used to talk about him

9 having received some kind of rank.

10 Q. Yes. And another question in relation to this. Was there anyone

11 else with the same name and surname anywhere in the vicinity?

12 A. No. As far as I know, there was nobody else with the same name.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would perhaps like for this

15 document to be given an exhibit number. And perhaps this would be the

16 right time for a break.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Defence Exhibit D752.

18 And there is a correction that needs to go in the transcript,

19 page 39, line 8, where there is the ERN number, that's mistaken. It

20 should be 01336289.

21 So thank you. We will have a break of 25 minutes starting from

22 now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I notice Ms. Richardson.

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, I do have a submission to

2 make to the Bench, and I would ask if we could go into private session at

3 this time since I think these are -- we are approaching delicate matters.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go to private session for a while,

5 please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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9 [Open session]

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Ms. Karic, we took a break as we were talking about certain

12 murders and related that to Stjepan Novakovic called Krke.

13 I would kindly ask the usher to put another document before the

14 witness. It comes from the military post of Bratunac.

15 Actually, it is a document that came from the command of the

16 Bratunac Brigade, dated the 26th of May of 1994. Please take a look at

17 the document. Its title is, "Opinion of the command of the Bratunac

18 Brigade sent to the military court in Bijeljina," signed by the commander,

19 Lieutenant Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic. The document's number is 04364593.

20 It is a short document and I will quote it to you.

21 "Opinion of the Bratunac Brigade command concerning the request

22 to postpone the prison sentence pertaining to Reserve Sergeant Novak

23 Stjepanovic. Upon receiving an invitation to serve his prison sentence,

24 Reserve Sergeant Novak Stjepanovic asked for the opinion of the Bratunac

25 Brigade command on this issue, and the command hereby submits it to the

1 relevant court. The above-mentioned person was a member of various units

2 in and outside of the Bratunac Brigade, and currently is serving as a

3 member of the reconnaissance platoon as an offensive unit of this brigade.

4 As such, he demonstrated good soldierly virtues, i.e. the virtues of a

5 good fighter, who was brave and dedicated, and therefore this command's

6 opinion is that his reasons for postponing the prison sentence should be

7 taken into account and that he should serve his time only after the

8 cessation of combat activities, law permitting."

9 My question to the witness is the following: As far as you could

10 see and as far as you know, was Krke a member of the Serb army in that

11 area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Have you got any idea as to why Stjepanovic, Novak, called Krke,

14 was punished in this way?

15 A. Because he killed Zvonko Djokanovic.

16 Q. How do you know that?

17 A. I heard that after the war.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't given it a number.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If we could

21 receive the number.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Defence Exhibit D753.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. To go back to the events in the camp --

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for

1 clarification, I won't go into detail concerning those events but I will

2 only briefly mention some of them because they may relate to some other

3 events that happened later.

4 Q. When you were brought to the camp, was someone else brought along

5 with you as well?

6 A. Yes. Mirzet Garaljevic from Likari.

7 Q. Do you remember him well? What did he look like?

8 A. He was terrified, sad in appearance. He wore a blue sweatsuit and

9 blue sneakers.

10 Q. Do you remember who brought him in the camp?

11 A. Yes. He was brought by Commander Miroljub Todorovic, aka Toso.

12 Q. For the transcript, Miroljub Todorovic. That's what the witness

13 said, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, how do you know that this person, Miroljub Todorovic, was

16 a commander?

17 A. When he entered the hall, he introduced himself to me, my father

18 and my aunt, and he said that he came from Nis, that he's a commander and

19 that his name is Miroljub Todorovic.

20 Q. When he said that he was a commander, did he say commander of

21 what?

22 A. Yes, of the entire Sase area.

23 Q. This person, Miroljub Todorovic, was that a local Serb?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You said he was from Nis. Could you tell the Chamber where that

1 is?

2 A. In Serbia.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please put another

4 Exhibit, D316 in front of the witness? It is a record of soldier's death,

5 the soldier being Miroljub Todorovic, son of Radivoje.

6 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at the document? It says

7 "record of soldier's death," the name is Miroljub Todorovic, son of

8 Radivoje, born in Nis in 1961. Is that the man you mentioned?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Again, I do hate to interrupt, but it appears

12 this document does not have a date, is that correct, on both the -- or at

13 least the English doesn't, and I'm looking at the B/C/S. There is no date

14 on it. I don't know if Madam Vidovic has additional information about

15 this document.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a document that has been supplied by the

17 Prosecution itself, Ms. Vidovic?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, precisely so.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose I cannot ask for that information from --

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course, Your Honour, thank you. And it's just

21 an observation at this point now. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be useful of course. I agree with you it

23 would be useful for the purpose of whatever use we would make of this

24 document to have more details about it, but I don't imagine --

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the case will depend on this document, anyway.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I can offer is the

3 correct data. This document is a part of documentation stemming from the

4 Bratunac Brigade, and it was disclosed to us on CDs. That's what I can

5 say on my part. In any case, perhaps we can clarify something with the

6 witness.

7 Q. This person, if one is to take a look at the information contained

8 there, Miroljub Todorovic, did he himself tell you that he was from Nis?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was his accent that of your region or did he use another accent?

11 A. He spoke Ekavian.

12 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber where Ekavian is spoken?

13 A. In Serbia.

14 Q. Did he mention whether he was married?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he say he had a family?

17 A. Yes. He said he had a wife and a son.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. The year of 1961, does that tally -- is that

19 similar to the age that you remember him being at the time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I asked you whether he was a local Serb. You said he wasn't and

22 that he was from Serbia. Apart from him, were there any other people from

23 Serbia proper within the camp?

24 A. Yes. There was a group from Serbia, but most of the people were

25 local Serbs.

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1 Q. What took place in the next few days with your father and your

2 aunt?

3 A. Yes. My father was sent to take a message to the woods in --

4 above Lasovac for the Muslims to surrender. He left and didn't return. A

5 few days later they sent my aunt, Begajeta Mujic, to the village of

6 Konjevic Polje with another such message. She didn't return either.

7 Q. During the time you were in the camp, were you and the other

8 people there abused, mistreated?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who mistreated you? The local Serbs you mentioned or the people

11 from Serbia?

12 A. We were mistreated by the local Serbs.

13 Q. These local Serbs that mistreated you, did they wear uniforms and

14 had weapons?

15 A. Yes, both.

16 Q. Can you remember some people, Serbs, that you saw in the camp of

17 Gradina Sase?

18 A. Yes. I remember the Djokanovics, as well as the Rankovics; I've

19 already mentioned them. I mentioned a Petrovic, as well as the

20 Milovanovics. And I saw my teacher, Marinko Batkovic.

21 Q. This teacher of yours, Marinko Lackovic, what did he used to

22 teach?

23 A. Chemistry and biology.

24 Q. Do you know whether he is still teaching today?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Were you sent to do something in the camp?

2 A. Yes. We were sent to clean some hangars as well as to peel

3 potatoes in the kitchen.

4 Q. Please go back to the document D92. I hope you still have it in

5 front of you. Do you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please go to the second page and take a look at the name under

8 number 43. Djokanovic, Slobodan, son of Stanoje. Do you know this man?

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Did you see him?

11 A. Yes. He was in a uniform and with a weapon.

12 Q. Take a look at the name under number 48, Dragoslav Milovanovic,

13 son of Velicko. Did you see that person in Sase camp?

14 A. Yes. I did. Several times. He also took my aunt to Bratunac to

15 take that message to the Muslims in Konjevic Polje.

16 Q. The name under number 54, Kosta Rankic, son of Sreten. Did you

17 know him?

18 A. Yes. He also had a uniform and had a weapon.

19 Q. Did you see him in the area of the camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please stay on this page. And take a look at the names under 54,

22 58, 60 and 62. You will see some women's names there: Danica Rankic,

23 Nada Rankic, Jelena Veselinovic, and Vojka Milovanovic. Did you or did

24 you not meet those women in the camp?

25 A. Yes. I met them in the camp and I saw them several times. They

1 worked in the kitchen.

2 Q. So they were cooks there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Witness, do you recall Vojka Milovanovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did that woman look like?

7 A. She had short, black hair, rough features, as well as voice, and

8 she resembled a male.

9 Q. Thank you. Did she see you and the other people in the camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If one was to say that that woman was not in the camp when you

12 were there, that is at the end of May and the beginning of June, would

13 that be true?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The Serbs who worked at the mine at that time, apart from those

16 that were part of the military, I have in mind the cooks, and everyone who

17 was there, were they able to see what was happening to you?

18 A. Yes. They could see our moaning, our screams and the mistreatment

19 as well as the wailing.

20 Q. Please go to the next page. The number there is 01320785. Please

21 look under number -- sorry, look at the name of Nenad Milovanovic, son of

22 Dusan, as well as the name at the end of the page, Izet Kasupovic. Do

23 these names mean anything to you?

24 A. Yes. They manned the mortar that was located close to the

25 administrative building.

1 Q. You mentioned a mortar that was in the proximity of the

2 administrative building. Did you see it yourself?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How did you see it?

5 A. We saw it through the window of the hall.

6 Q. These people, Nenad Milovanovic and Izet, how do you know that

7 these are the people who were there? Did you know them from before?

8 A. Yes. I knew Nenad Milovanovic. He was also a neighbour of mine.

9 And I didn't know Izet. He was called Izo at the time. And I realised

10 that he had a Muslim name.

11 Q. So Izet is a Muslim name?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you said you saw a mortar. What were they doing with the

14 mortar? Since you were 15 at the time, did you know what a mortar is?

15 A. I knew what a mortar is because I saw it in some books, and we

16 were explained by the detainees that that was a mortar. We saw it go off.

17 Q. To make it clear, when you say "I saw it in some books," is it

18 true or not that in our part of the world, there used to be a class called

19 protection and first aid but it also dealt with weapons?

20 A. Yes. When we attended school, in the seventh or the eighth grade,

21 a teacher explained some things about weapons.

22 Q. To go back to what is it that you saw concerning that mortar, what

23 were they precisely doing with it?

24 A. They were firing shells from that mortar.

25 Q. Could you hear it?

1 A. Yes. We heard the detonations. They shook the building and the

2 window panes burst.

3 Q. Did you mean to say that the detonation --

4 A. When it went off.

5 Q. Please continue. But before that, let us clarify something. You

6 said Izet was a Muslim. Did the commander mention any Muslims within the

7 Serb army, if you remember?

8 A. Yes. He mentioned him.

9 Q. All right. Please continue with the list. Take a look at

10 number 77. Radisav Milovanovic. Did you see him as well?

11 A. Yes. I saw him on several occasions.

12 Q. Do you remember any specific event concerning that person?

13 A. Yes. He came to the hall once to take us to clean something and

14 he attempted to rape me.

15 Q. Did anyone help you, or did the rape take place?

16 A. No. The commander, Miroljub Todorovic, was close by and he

17 prevented that.

18 Q. Please go on to the next page now. Please take a look at the

19 number 109, Rankic, Dusan. Did you see him at the mine when you were

20 there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How about an important under 110? Ilija Stjepanovic, son of

23 Zilko?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see him there?

1 A. Yes. He is Novak Stjepanovic's brother.

2 Q. Thank you. Number 112, Maksim Rankic?

3 A. I saw him too.

4 Q. Number 124, Marko Milic, son of Radovan. Did you know him?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see him when you were in the camp?

7 A. Yes, several times.

8 Q. Dragan Djokanovic, son of Sreten. Did you see him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Within the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Savo Milovanovic, son of Sveto. Did you see him there?

13 A. Yes. He stood guard at the entrance when I saw him.

14 Q. Cvjetko Bosnjacic, son of Djoko?

15 A. I saw him. He was guarding the cattle that was within the school

16 compound at the playground.

17 Q. Slavomir Veselinovic, son of Vladimir. Did you see him?

18 A. Yes, I saw him within the camp.

19 Q. Vojislav Djokanovic, son of Bogdan?

20 A. I saw him within the perimeter too.

21 Q. Djokanovic, Petko, son of Vojislav?

22 A. I saw him as well.

23 Q. Djokanovic, Milos, son of Vojislav?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And 137, Mile Petrovic, did you see him at the mine?

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Now, all these people I've just asked you about, and with

3 reference to whom you said that you did see them within the perimeter of

4 the Sase mine at the time that you were there, I mean, had you known them

5 well before you got to the mine?

6 A. Yes, I did. They were all my neighbours.

7 Q. It does not refer to Izo Kasupovic?

8 A. With the exception of Izo Kasupovic. He was from Serbia.

9 Q. The administrative building of the Sase mine and the camp you were

10 at in the month of June 1992, I mean, did you ever understand why the

11 soldiers were there?

12 A. Well, my impression was that their command post of the entire

13 region of Sase was there.

14 Q. Is that something that Miroljub Todorovic confirmed to you, as you

15 said before?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would ask -- the question has

19 already been answered, but I would ask that the witness not be led and

20 that certain questions should be put to her so she can answer and not

21 suggestions of answers so she simply responding yes. If Madam Vidovic

22 could please --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In this particular context?

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, in this particular context, Your Honour,

25 thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic you've been put on notice by

2 Ms. Richardson that --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I simply repeated

4 a fact already stated by the witness herself five or ten minutes ago but

5 I'll take account of it. Thank you very much.

6 Q. You mentioned a mortar. In the immediate -- did you see anything

7 else of the sort in the immediate vicinity of the mine, other than the

8 mortar?

9 A. Yes, I did. I saw a tank right next to the building, just below

10 the window of the hall where we were kept.

11 Q. Was it simply parked there or what?

12 A. It left every day, and they took the tank somewhere and then they

13 brought it back again.

14 Q. How would you describe the tank?

15 A. It was an olive drab colour, camouflage paint. And there was a

16 machine-gun on the tank, mounted on the tank. And the ammunition.

17 Q. Do you remember, whilst you were at the camp, of a large group of

18 people having been brought to the camp?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Do you remember when that happened?

21 A. It was in the beginning of June 1992.

22 Q. Do you remember who brought those people in?

23 A. Commander Miroljub Todorovic.

24 Q. Do you remember how many people were in the group?

25 A. About 20.

1 Q. Were they men or women?

2 A. There were men and four women. Out of those four women, one was

3 heavily pregnant, and another woman had two children, and all the rest of

4 them were men.

5 Q. Where were they from?

6 A. They were from Suha.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the witness still

8 has the map, I would like her to indicate Suha on the map.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you still have the map, Ms. Karic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you be kind enough to put circle around

12 Suha, please? If you know where it is. Or if you can find it on the map.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just marked it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you so much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Ms. Karic, how did you know that those people were from Suha?

17 A. When they came into our hall, we could see that they had been

18 beaten up and they were extremely frightened and they told us that they

19 were picked up in the woods around Suha and that some of them had been

20 taken to Bratunac to the Vuk Karadzic school and another group was brought

21 to us, to the same hall.

22 Q. Did they tell you whether there were any other people in the

23 woods?

24 A. There were large numbers of people in the woods. They saw another

25 group before they were captured. They saw a group of people who had been

1 killed and then a couple of days later, all of them were captured as well.

2 Q. These people hiding in the woods that we are referring to and the

3 people who had been killed, were they Muslims?

4 A. Yes, they were Muslims.

5 Q. How did you personally find out that some of those people from the

6 woods had been taken to Bratunac? Who told you that?

7 A. I've already mentioned that there was a heavily pregnant woman in

8 the group and she was crying most of the time because her

9 husband had been taken to the Vuk Karadzic school.

10 Q. The Vuk Karadzic school is in Bratunac, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Ms. Karic, apart from these men and women from Suha, can you tell

13 us whether in this group of people of about 30 people who had been

14 captured, yourself included, were there any women and children in the

15 group who -- when you were there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember how many?

18 A. There were nine children ranging between one and a half and 12

19 years of age. And in the age group of 15 to 18, I mean there were girls,

20 and there were seven or eight women who were older than 20, and all the

21 rest of them were men.

22 Q. How can you tell me that there were nine children? How do you

23 know?

24 A. I know because I myself was there and I knew all of them.

25 Q. Right. Do you remember what went on in the following period?

1 A. In the following period, Commander Todorovic came to the hall with

2 a list and he said, "Those whose names I call out will be taken for an

3 exchange at Zvornik, and those who are not called out will stay here."

4 Q. Was anyone called out?

5 A. Yes. About 51 people.

6 Q. Who was not called out; do you remember?

7 A. Yes. Gordana Omic and her two children, and six girls, myself

8 included.

9 Q. Do you have any idea as to why Gordana Omic and her two children

10 were not called out?

11 A. Because she used to work as a secretary in the administrative

12 building before the war because they needed her to help them type

13 documents and to help them with the secretarial work.

14 Q. Did they take her to work; do you remember?

15 A. Yes, on a daily basis. She had to type things up for them.

16 Q. Do you remember, on the basis of what you yourself saw, what

17 happened to that group of people who had been called out?

18 A. Yes. A year -- an hour later, two lorries drove up in front of

19 the building and the commander, together with the group of soldiers, took

20 those who had been called out outside and they were loaded onto those

21 lorries. And there was a lot of screaming in the hall at that stage, and

22 the children started crying and it was terrible. Words are failing me in

23 trying to describe it but it was terrible. People were being pushed onto

24 lorries, and one woman was unable to get on, and she was hit and then

25 thrown on to the lorry basically.

1 Q. After those events, have you ever seen any of those people alive?

2 A. No, never, not a single one.

3 Q. Have I understood you correctly that some of your neighbours from

4 Gradina were in that group?

5 A. Yes. There were people of from Suha who had been brought in as

6 well as all of my neighbours from the village Gradina.

7 Q. Has a single one of those neighbours from Gradina appeared and

8 come back alive?

9 A. No, never.

10 Q. And what about the people from Suha you've mentioned earlier?

11 Have any one from Suha contacted you after all those events?

12 A. Yes. Quite a few of them contacted me and asked me if I knew what

13 had happened to the members of their families.

14 Q. Right.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like

16 the witness to be shown the Defence Exhibit D703. It's a video clip of

17 Suha.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, is this the one that --

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, it's my understanding that it

20 is. That this video contains images of bodies, et cetera. But I have to

21 tell you that we were just this morning given a clear copy of the video,

22 so perhaps Madam Vidovic can tell us what's on the video. And I renew my

23 application, if that's the case, that it does contain bodies, et cetera.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. I trust in your judgement.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, perhaps it would

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1 be a good idea to have this video shown in a private session. I'm not

2 against it.

3 But there is another point. This is a video that the Prosecution

4 had received with other Defence exhibits prior to the Defence --

5 Pre-Defence Conference, so it was as far back as July. Quite a while

6 back. That's what I wanted to say.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Madam Vidovic. But we're not

8 complaining. It's just that the video that we did receive hasn't worked

9 and so we received a copy this morning that is working. And it's not a

10 complaint on the Defence's part as all.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not make of it a casus belli.

13 Madam Vidovic, shall we go then in private session for the

14 purposes of relaying this video? And then when we come to questions --

15 unless you want to put the questions as we go along. In that case, we

16 will remain in private session. If you want to show the video first and

17 put the questions after, what we will do is we see the video.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- in private session and then you put the questions

20 in open session. It's up to you. I mean, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Precisely, Your Honour. We

22 can first watch the video. It's not very long. And then I'm going to ask

23 questions of the witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... if it's

25 important for you, we will see it.

1 Let's go into private session for a while, please.

2 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Ms. Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mrs. Karic, would you be able to comment on the video yourself?

20 A. Yes, I can. I can say that as far as I know, nine children were

21 taken for the exchange, the ages were between one and --

22 Q. Can you stop for a second? Do you remember whose child it was,

23 the youngest child, I mean?

24 A. Yes, it was Salcin Omic's child.

25 Q. Yes, sorry, I interrupted you. You said ranging in ages between a

1 year and a half and 12?

2 A. There were quite a few women. There was a heavily pregnant woman

3 who was about to give birth.

4 Q. Thank you. Perhaps we shouldn't pursue this any further. Thank

5 you to the witness.

6 What happened to you, to the girls, after that day?

7 A. We stayed in that hall, nine of us stayed behind. We were crying.

8 I wanted to be exchanged, but as soon as they decided to leave us there, I

9 knew that there was something wrong. Straight after the others were taken

10 away, the lorries came back.

11 Q. Could you stop for a second? How long afterwards did they come

12 back?

13 A. After about half an hour they came back empty.

14 Q. Did you and the other girls have any idea at the time where

15 Zvornik was?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you comment on the fact, as to whether they had been taken to

18 Zvornik or somewhere else?

19 A. Yes. We knew that Zvornik was about 50 kilometres away from Sase

20 and there was no way they could have reached Zvornik within such a short

21 period of time. We commented that they must have been taken somewhere in

22 the vicinity of Bratunac.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what happened to you and the other

24 girls after that?

25 A. Yes. Straight after the lorries came back, Commander Todorovic

1 and two soldiers came into the hall and he asked for three girls, for

2 three volunteers, to do some cleaning work in Bratunac. But none of us

3 came forward. And then he said to the soldier who was standing next to

4 him to choose the ones he wanted to take. He said, You, you and you. He

5 pointed his finger at some of us.

6 Q. During the proofing for this testimony, I understood you to say

7 that you did not want to mention the names of those girls.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you think this is

9 relevant we can go into closed session.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it like this: If you don't put the

11 question, we are not going to intervene. But it doesn't mean that the

12 Prosecution later on cannot put the question themselves upon

13 cross-examination. So I have no right actually at this moment to ask the

14 Prosecution what they are going to do during the cross-examination. So

15 what I would suggest is that, unless Ms. Richardson stands up and gives us

16 an indication, that you proceed without asking for the names and then we

17 see if the names are asked for later on. And we will deal with it when it

18 is necessary.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. What happened next?

21 A. We were put in a car, the three of us, that is, and we were taken

22 in the direction of Bratunac.

23 Q. As you were leaving in the direction of Bratunac, did you drive

24 through the area where your house was?

25 A. Yes. We drove through Donja Kolonija and I could see that my

1 parents' house and my grandmother's house had been burnt.

2 Q. Can you tell me what was the time of day?

3 A. Yes. I remember it was at around 7.30 p.m. There was still

4 fairly good visibility.

5 Q. On your way to Bratunac, what other villages did you drive

6 through; do you remember?

7 A. Yes. We drove through Donja Kolonija, Kostanovice, Neskovici,

8 Biljaca, Prisoj, Bjelovac, Zaluzje, Voljavice, Pobrdje, and then we got to

9 Bratunac.

10 Q. Do you remember whether anyone joined you at Pobrdje?

11 A. Yes. We were joined by another soldier who was called Sale.

12 Q. All those villages that you were driven through, it was in July

13 1992, right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Were all those villages under the control of the Serb army in

16 June, that is to say the time when you were there, in June 1992?

17 A. Yes. They were under the control of the Serb forces.

18 Q. On the basis of what can you conclude that?

19 A. Because on our way to Bratunac we could see many of their soldiers

20 and they moved around freely.

21 Q. Could you move around freely in that car on your way to Bratunac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you drove through those villages, do you remember seeing

24 anything at Neskovici or not?

25 A. Yes. I saw a huge group of soldiers.

1 Q. Do you remember passing through Bjelovac?

2 A. Yes, I do remember. When we got to Bjelovac, there was a

3 crossroads there going from Bratunac in the direction of Loznicka Rijeka,

4 and Sase, and we stopped at the crossroads to let a column of APCs and

5 tanks drive in the direction of Loznicka Rijeka. So they were going in

6 the direction of Bratunac basically.

7 Q. Is this the same direction as Sikiric?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What happened to you next?

10 A. When we got to Bratunac, those three soldiers took us to an

11 abandoned Muslim house. I realised then that there was no cleaning job

12 involved at all.

13 Q. And what happened to you?

14 A. We were taken into that house and we were raped and abused and

15 beaten throughout the night, and I myself had a gun pointed at my head all

16 the time.

17 Q. Why you in particular?

18 A. Because I was screaming too much.

19 Q. How old were you at the time?

20 A. I was 15.

21 Q. What happened to you on the next day?

22 A. It went on throughout that night and on the following morning they

23 went somewhere and they left a guard there who was standing guard there,

24 up until the evening.

25 Q. What happened that evening?

1 A. Around 11.00 p.m., a group of soldiers came in. Among them was

2 Novak Stjepanovic, aka Krke, and he appeared to be their leader.

3 Q. Did you recognise anyone else from the group?

4 A. I recognised Sasa Cvetkovic and a neighbour by the name of

5 Spasoje. Krsto Rankic as well. And he was from Bjelovac. And Krle from

6 Zaluzje.

7 Q. All right. How did you know Krsto Rankic? Did he work somewhere?

8 A. He used to work as a mine expert at the Sase mine.

9 Q. Before the war?

10 A. Yes, before the war.

11 Q. And your father, where did he used to work?

12 A. He used to work with him.

13 Q. What did those people do to you?

14 A. That evening, we were put in the cars again so we were taken out

15 of the house, put in some other vehicles and we had to sit in their laps,

16 and they took us around Bratunac and we ended up in a different house that

17 was used at the time by Novak Stjepanovic.

18 Q. What happened to you that evening?

19 A. We were raped again there.

20 Q. Do you remember who raped you?

21 A. Yes. Sasa Cvetkovic, Krsto Rankic, a person from Zaluzje who was

22 called Krle, and a Milan from Sabac.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask the

24 usher to put a list in front of the witness. It is an exhibit, D83,

25 salaries for June of 1992. The number on the document is 01335404. And

1 it is a list of the Territorial Defence of Bjelovac for June.

2 Q. Witness --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Do you have tissues for the witness?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we have a short break, Madam Vidovic? Or

5 Mrs. Karic -- Mrs. Karic, do you want a short break?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have the break now. We will have a

8 25-minute break. Thank you. We were supposed to have a break in 25

9 minutes in any case. So we'll have it now. Thank you.

10 And if possible, let's try and get through this as quickly as you

11 can, Ms. Vidovic.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Ms. Karic, I hope we can continue.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I will not have many questions for you pertaining to these

19 sensitive topics but just a few.

20 Concerning those other girls, do you remember how old they were?

21 A. They were between 15 and 18.

22 Q. When we departed for the break, I was asking the usher to put D83

23 in front of the witness. I don't know whether you have a list of TO

24 Bjelovac before you.

25 A. No, I don't have it.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the usher to put

2 D83 in front of the witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have D83.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. My apologies then.

6 Please go to the second page. This should be TO Bjelovac there.

7 Did you find that? The first page says salaries for June of 1992. Do you

8 see that?

9 A. It says, "People who were paid for official troop trip and pay."

10 Q. Please turn to the next page then. Do you see where it says TO

11 Bjelovac at the top?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please take a look at number 571, Krsto Rankic, R?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that the person that you said raped you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell the Chamber how old was that person at the time?

18 A. I don't know exactly, but he was in his middle age.

19 Q. You were describing us the events of that day. Were you later

20 returned to the camp?

21 A. Yes. After the rapings and during the night, in the morning they

22 returned us to Sase, to the camp.

23 Q. Did you have an opportunity to talk with Mr. Miroljub Todorovic

24 about the things that had happened to you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you tell him what happened?

2 A. Yes. We did. And he immediately called the entrance, the ramp,

3 and he forbade them to let Krke within the mine perimeter.

4 Q. You heard that yourself?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you nevertheless keep seeing Krke within the perimeter?

7 A. Yes, tomorrow, the next day.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague just told me that

9 something should be corrected in line 12 -- no, line 6, page 70. I will

10 repeat the question for the witness.

11 Q. Did you tell him what happened and what did he do? You said that

12 he made a phone call. Who did he call?

13 A. He called the ramp that was located at the entrance to Donja Sase,

14 and he said that Novak Stjepanovic, Krke, shouldn't be allowed inside the

15 camp.

16 Q. When you say the ramp, you mean the place where the Serbs

17 assembled? You mentioned that at the beginning of your testimony. Is

18 that the thing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you witness that conversation?

21 A. Yes. We didn't know with whom he was speaking but we heard what

22 he said.

23 Q. Apart from what you have described, and what happened to you, I

24 wanted to ask you whether there were some other rapes of other girls who

25 remained behind in the camp after the large group departed.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was that seldom or often?

3 A. It happened often.

4 Q. I won't ask you about that anymore, but please tell the Chamber

5 whether there was a person who particularly took part in those rapings,

6 who did it the most?

7 A. Yes. It was Ranko -- Petko Rankic, called Pero.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I would ask if we could have a

9 period, a date? Are we still in June?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so. I mean, I don't think we have

11 left that period.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: We haven't had a date in a while. I'm just

13 seeking clarification.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could confirm this, Ms. Vidovic.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness was talking

17 about the two weeks she spent in the camp starting from the end of May.

18 She said she came there on the 27th and spent two weeks there.

19 Q. Am I correct, Witness?

20 A. Yes. And all this happened around the 5th or the 6th of July of

21 1992.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, June.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said June?

25 A. June.

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1 Q. The witness said June, and the transcript stated that it was July.

2 I wanted to ask you the following: When did you leave the Sase

3 mine?

4 A. Around the 11th of June of 1992.

5 Q. While you were still at the camp, were there -- was there any

6 fighting?

7 A. Yes. There was fighting on the very day we were transferred to

8 Bratunac. In front of the building, there were numerous Serbs.

9 Q. Just a moment, Ms. Karic. You said that happened when we were

10 transferred to Bratunac. And then you said in front of the building, many

11 people assembled. Just to have it clear in the transcript. When you

12 mentioned a -- or the building, are you still talking about the period of

13 time when you were in Sase or are you mentioning a building in Bratunac?

14 A. That's the administrative building in Gradina, in Sase.

15 Q. You started telling us about some people who assembled there.

16 What was taking place?

17 A. They assembled, they started shooting around the building. They

18 started calling us names. They kept saying "balija," and they wanted to

19 kill us.

20 Q. Do you remember who helped you then not to get killed?

21 A. Yes. It was Miroljub Todorovic. He helped us.

22 Q. When it comes to Miroljub Todorovic, I wanted to ask you something

23 about him. In your knowledge, did he personally partake in the

24 mistreatment and rapings of the girls?

25 A. No. He didn't participate in the mistreatment and the rapes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

2 another Defence exhibit before the Witness, P90. It is a book, the title

3 of which is, "Srebrenica as a Witness and a Prosecutor." Or, "Srebrenica

4 Testifies and Accuses." The page number is 0291976, which is page 30 in

5 the English language.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the ERN number of

7 the document in English.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to read out a passage to

9 the witness.

10 Q. If you could please follow: "According to reliable sources".

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, in English. Your Honour, to

12 correct the number, 00816700.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness --

16 A. My apologies, but I don't have that page.

17 Q. We are talking about the English version, but you should have

18 before you page 59 in Bosnian, and the ERN number should be 02919276. Do

19 you have that in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I will quote: "According to reliable sources, most of the

22 detainees were killed and buried in the sludge deposit of the mine in

23 Sase. A large number of the detained girls and women were raped. The

24 ring leaders were Novak Stjepanovic, aka Krke, from the hamlet of Jaruge

25 near Kostanovice and Lieutenant Miroljub Todorovic, who was the battery

1 commander in Sase, as an outpost of the command in Bratunac."

2 Ms. Karic, I have a couple of questions for you regarding this.

3 In your assessment, was Miroljub Todorovic familiar with what was taking

4 place there?

5 A. Yes, he was.

6 Q. And in your assessment, did he personally participate and was he

7 one of the ringleaders in the rapes and abuses?

8 A. No, that is not correct.

9 Q. Therefore, the information that the author had, is it correct or

10 not?

11 A. It is not correct.

12 Q. Who was actually the ringleader in the rapes?

13 A. Ringleader was Novak Stjepanovic, Krke, and Petko Rankic, aka

14 Pero.

15 Q. Are throws local Serbs?

16 A. Yes, they are.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: If I may, with respect to the portion that was

20 just read out to the witness, now, there is a mention of Todorovic's name.

21 However, there is no indication that he was -- that he had taken part in

22 the rapes. No indication from the book, that is. So to pose a question

23 to the witness as such is misleading. They did mention that Krke was

24 involved but based on the English version that I'm reading there is no

25 indication that the commander was.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But, Ms. Richardson, I disagree completely with you.

2 If you read the previous sentence, because this is not a sentence that can

3 be taken off apart from the rest. The sentence immediately preceding the

4 one that has been read out to the witness is the following: "A large

5 number of the detained girls and women were raped." Then immediately

6 after, you have the ringleaders were Novak Stjepanovic, also known as

7 Krke, from the hamlet of wherever, and Lieutenant Todorovic one of the

8 first JNA ... So if one reads the two sentences together, what's the

9 conclusion?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I have another question pertaining to this. The content of this

14 passage that I read out to you, according to you, it's incorrect, is it

15 not?

16 A. It is not correct.

17 Q. Thank you. Did someone transfer you to Bratunac on the 11th of

18 June of 1992?

19 A. Yes, Miroljub Todorovic did.

20 Q. Do you remember what he told you during or prior to the transport?

21 If you can remember. Just make a pause before you answer, please.

22 A. He said, "You have to go to Bratunac. You shouldn't stay here

23 because of your Serb neighbours."

24 Q. When you came to Bratunac, where were you taken to?

25 A. First to the military police, and then to the Bratunac stadium in

1 a restaurant that was there.

2 Q. Please tell the Chamber who took you to that restaurant, to that

3 catering facility?

4 A. Miroljub Todorovic did.

5 Q. Was he accompanied by anyone or was he alone?

6 A. There was another soldier in the escort.

7 Q. Was that person a military policeman?

8 A. Yes. He was.

9 Q. That place where you were taken to, can you remember what its

10 interior looked like?

11 A. Whether we entered the room, it was full of blood. The tiles were

12 splashed with blood. There were some white sheets there as well with

13 bloodstains. There were things that -- thrown around the room.

14 Q. Do you remember seeing anything specific in that room, something

15 that you recall?

16 A. Yes. I remember a blanket that belonged to Omic, Salcin, and

17 there were two paintings or photographs by Mirzet.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness wasn't clear.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Ramic Mirzet, is that the one plan who was taken from Likari the

21 same day as you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Since it is unclear in the transcript, I wanted to ask the

24 question again.

25 It is stated here that you saw

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Since it is unclear in the transcript, I wanted to ask the

3 question again. It is stated here that you saw two paintings or

4 photographs. What is it that you saw?

5 A. I saw photographs of Mirzet Garaljevic.

6 Q. Thank you. I will not ask a lot of questions about that period,

7 as it is very disturbing for you. But I just wanted to ask you the

8 following: Did Todorovic appear there at a certain moment?

9 A. Yes. He appeared there on that very day. He came with a military

10 truck and he took us to another abandoned Muslim house.

11 Q. So what happened with you who were there with the people that he

12 brought to Bratunac?

13 A. We spent a few days in that house. We were told not to turn the

14 lights on and not to talk and not to look out of the window.

15 Q. All right. In the end, did Mr. Todorovic help you in some way?

16 A. Yes. The day that we were brought to the house, he took the Omic

17 family, Gordana and her son Damir and her daughter Vesna, he took them to

18 Serbia, close to Belgrade.

19 Q. Did he help you as well to them Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps to make things

22 shorter, if I may be allowed to put a leading question, because some of

23 the issues pertain to Serbia proper and is not directly linked to the

24 indictment. I don't know if the Prosecution objects.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: No objection, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

2 Please go ahead, Ms. Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You were taken to Loznica, were you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you use your own name there?

7 A. No. When we came there, we had to change our names.

8 Q. How long did you stay in Loznica?

9 A. About a month and a half. More or less until mid-August.

10 Q. And did you meet your husband there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you at any point manage to go back to Bosnia and Herzegovina

13 with your husband?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. It was in the beginning of 1993.

17 Q. Now I'd like to put a couple of different questions to you.

18 You testified today about what happened to you in May and in June

19 1992. And July 1992. Up until the point when you were transferred to

20 Serbia. Where were your parents during that time?

21 A. My parents were in the forests, the forest called Bare, and they

22 stayed there up until mid-August, and then they somehow managed to get to

23 Srebrenica.

24 Q. Did your parents tell you whether they knew anything about those

25 large numbers of Muslim people who stayed behind in the woods?

1 A. Yes. They told me that masses of people stayed back in the woods

2 and many of those people were completely exhausted, they were sick, they

3 were going hungry, and some of them were actually going crazy in the

4 woods.

5 Q. Did they mention anyone in particular who lost his mind?

6 A. Yes. The mother of Mujic, Kiram lost her mind at that stage.

7 Q. Is she the only person to whom it had happened from your area or

8 were there any others?

9 A. Yes, there were many others, and many people actually died in

10 those woods.

11 Q. In this respect, I'd like to put another question to you. Do you

12 know anything -- have you heard anything from your parents as to how long

13 those people stayed in the woods?

14 A. Yes. After they managed to get to Srebrenica, many other people

15 actually stayed behind in the woods, and they stayed there until the end

16 of that autumn, and many of those were later captured and killed when they

17 tried to get back to their villages to look for food, and on those

18 occasions they were either killed or captured.

19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Karic.

20 Now I'd like to ask you something else. You told us today about

21 the Serbs that you saw at the command post in Sase, and you also told us

22 about other Serbs that you saw in the area that you were driven around in

23 that vehicle, et cetera. On the basis of your experience and on the basis

24 of what you heard from other Muslims about what went on in May and June

25 1992, can you now answer the following question? Were the Serbs that you

1 saw them peace-loving individuals who were just sitting in their villages

2 and keeping a watch on their property in the months of May and June 1992

3 in the area that you've described to us, Sase, Neskovici, Kostanovice,

4 Bjelovac and Suha?

5 A. No, these were not village guards. It was an army with lots of

6 weapons.

7 Q. And was that a peaceful army or were they doing something else?

8 A. No. They were killing, looting, raping, setting houses alight,

9 and they perpetrated a great many crimes.

10 Q. Mrs. Karic, you made several statements in relation to everything

11 that had happened to you and that had happened to other people, and events

12 that you yourself had witnessed; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know whether anyone ever has been held accountable for

15 those killings and murders and rapes that you told us about?

16 A. Nobody was -- has been held accountable for those acts, ever.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

21 Are you going to start with your cross-examination now?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, tomorrow. Although, I can

23 begin, if I can have a short break today. But it's my understanding that

24 even if we do, I don't think the Defence is ready to start with their next

25 witness tomorrow in any event, so I would appreciate starting

1 tomorrow if we are not short on time.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time do you think you will require

3 tomorrow?.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Tomorrow, Your Honour, no more than an hour, hour

5 and a half, tops.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we can give the witness a rest. I think that

7 ought to be preferred rather than start again, if you agree.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. One small question before we send you to the

10 hotel, Ms. Karic. This book by Sejo Omeragic that we saw before, there is

11 a name of Enes Karic. Is he related to you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he isn't.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you know him? Do you know who he is?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So for today we are going to stop

16 here. We will give you a well-deserved rest. Tomorrow we will continue

17 at 9.00 in the morning, I think here, as well in this same courtroom. In

18 the meantime, try to relax. You will have a short cross-examination

19 tomorrow, and then you will be able to go back home and our staff will be

20 making all the arrangements for you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good afternoon to everyone.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

25 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.