1 Monday, 10 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, sorry about that. Could you please
7 call the case, and good afternoon to you.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case
9 number IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in
11 your own language?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies
13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. And also good
16 afternoon to my learned friend of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben,
17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. I am here together with counsel,
18 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio and Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager,
19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good afternoon to you
21 and your team.
22 Appearances for Naser Oric.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
24 afternoon, my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and together
25 with Mr. John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal
1 assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you and your team.
3 So I asked the staff to convey to the witness -- to inform the
4 witness that we would -- that he would come in with some delay so that in
5 the meantime we deal with some of the issues that we have pending. Let's
6 go into private session for a while.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 12039-12047 redacted. Private session.
6 --- Break taken at 2.51 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 3.03 p.m.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't forget, Madam Registrar, that this
13 witness is testifying with one protective measure. Incidentally, just for
14 the record because we have been in private session almost since the
15 beginning of this sitting, we also had to stop for some time because there
16 was a technical problem which has now been solved. And I thank the
17 technicians for that. Supposedly, I think, you have been informed that
18 today's schedule is adapted according to everybody's wish in a way that
19 there will be only one break of 30 minutes at 4.00. All right? Thank
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir, and welcome back.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you had enough time to relax over the long
25 weekend that you have been here with us in The Hague. The weather has
1 also been favourable.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will continue and finish with your testimony
4 today. Before we do so I want to put your mind at rest that we are
5 starting now with your testimony because we needed to discuss a few
6 preliminary matters amongst ourselves that have got nothing to do with
7 you; they are preliminary matters relating to the case but they needed to
8 be decided or discussed today. And then in addition we had some technical
9 problems, and therefore we couldn't start immediately after we finished
10 discussing the preliminary matters.
11 You are testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration that you
12 made last week; it still applies today. You don't need to make it again
13 or repeat it. Ms. Richardson is going to proceed and finish with her
14 cross-examination, and then there will be a short re-examination by the
15 Defence and then some questions from us and you will be able to go back
16 home. Thank you.
17 Ms. Richardson.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: (redacted) [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]
22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I'd like to continue from where we left off
23 last Wednesday, and time is of the essence today so I would appreciate it
24 if you can assist me by answering yes and no wherever possible to my
25 questions. And if you desire to give a more detailed explanation, then
1 that of course will be provided to you, but first of all I'd like to ask
2 you to be as brief as possible and where possible give me yes or no
4 I'd like to ask you a question about the women -- the Muslim women
5 specifically during the period of the war in 1992. Did any of the
6 women -- were they ever considered fighters or did they participate in the
8 A. Not in the fighting, but they helped the fighters. They would
9 wash their laundry, that sort of thing, but they were not involved in the
10 fighting itself.
11 Q. Would they also administer medical attention when necessary?
12 A. If one of them knew how to do it, probably they would have helped
13 out, yes.
14 Q. And this assistance that was rendered to the fighters was done
15 wherever the fighters happened to be located, whether it was in Cizmici or
16 in the wider area of Glogova, wherever the fighters happened to be?
17 A. No. For the most part, they were around Cizmici. So the fighters
18 would go there.
19 Q. Were you aware that there were Muslim women -- I'll rephrase the
21 Do you discount the possibility that women -- Muslim women wore
22 military uniform and engaged in the fighting during 1992 to mid-1993?
23 A. I discount that possibility. They did not carry weapons. I never
24 saw any of them carry weapons.
25 Q. Sorry, you didn't see any of them but there's a possibility that
1 this could have happened but you just don't know about it?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because your question and his answer do
3 not tally. I mean -- yes, Ms. Vidovic. The question was about uniforms
4 and engaged in fighting, and the answer was that they did not carry
5 weapons, never saw any one of them carrying weapons. Yes.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the reason is the
7 Prosecutor asked a very broad and imprecise question. The question was
8 whether the witness could discount the possibility that during the
9 fighting in 1992 and 1993 women who were fighters were wearing uniform,
10 but what they should do is specify both time and place. They can't simply
11 go and ask the witness whether in a very general sense the witness was
12 aware of the Muslim women wearing uniform. Is this in reference to
13 Glogova? Glogova, Tuzla, Sarajevo, which specific location do they have
14 in mind? The question is highly imprecise and that's why the witness is
15 providing this sort of answer.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm sure on redirect Madam Vidovic
17 can ask for a further clarification. I'm simply asking a general question
18 about his knowledge of women during 1992 and 1993, nothing more. And I am
19 not going to specify any further; it's just a general question.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we can leave it at that, actually, I
21 mean, and he has already answered that his knowledge he is not aware of
22 any women fighters.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.
24 Q. Do you know a Fatima Golic?
25 A. Fatima Golic, no.
1 Q. All right. Do you know anyone from your village of Glogova by
2 the name of Fatima?
3 A. In our village there were at least 15 to 20 ladies named Fatima,
4 but none of them called Golic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a common Muslim name, Fatima.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Evidently, Your Honour.
7 Q. And -- thank you, sir. I'll move on to my next question.
8 Now, last Wednesday you were discussing or testifying about the
9 Glogova attack. Do you recall that? And I'm specifically referring to
10 the attack that took place on the 23rd and the 24th of December, 1992. Do
11 you recall that?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. Sir, do you know what the strategic importance was of Glogova?
14 And when I say "strategic importance" I mean the importance to -- the
15 importance of that area to both the Muslim fighters as well as the Serb
16 soldiers or the Serb forces?
17 A. There was a group of fighters that we had at Glogova. There were
18 people there, too; they were inside Glogova and they were surrounded. We
19 went there to help them.
20 Q. Okay. My question, though, is: Was Glogova important in terms of
21 its location, important enough that the Muslims would seek to -- would
22 seek to go in and liberate it or take control of that area?
23 A. That was our village --
24 Q. In addition to --
25 A. -- it was always important to us.
1 Q. In addition to the fact that it was your village, however, would
2 you say that Glogova was important in terms of its location, and that
3 being that it was located strategically between Kravica and Bratunac?
4 Would that be a correct assessment?
5 A. I'm not sure I understand your question, what exactly it refers
7 Q. Perhaps --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically -- let me phrase the question myself.
9 Of course, sir, I do fully understand your answer, your response
10 to Madam Richardson's question when you said, "of course we fought to take
11 it back, it's our own village." But apart from that, apart from the fact
12 that this was your village and you wanted to take it back, was there also
13 the strategic aspect that influenced your decision to fight and take back
14 Glogova? Was it important for you to take back only because it was our
15 village or also because it was strategically important for the Muslim
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cizmici is a very small village, and
18 yet there were between 1.000 and 1.500 civilians there. I'm talking about
19 the area between Cizmici and Glogova. It was really crowded. There were
20 lots of people there, and people could no longer continue to live in
21 Cizmici. It's a very small area, so that was the reason.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
23 I don't know if you want to pursue this any further, but --
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.
25 Perhaps the witness could be given Defence Exhibit 793, the map,
1 and maybe we can have the map assist us.
2 Q. Sir, if you look at Defence Exhibit D793, could you -- could you
3 tell us -- could you point to where Glogova is just with the pointer? You
4 don't have to mark it; it's already marked by you last week.
5 A. I think Velika Glogova is not on this map and there are a number
6 of other villages that are not shown on this map. It's just Glogova.
7 That's all it says.
8 Q. All right --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We had this -- 797, please, D797. And could the
10 technician focus on the area which is marked in red and in green, please.
11 Lower right -- oh, I see, I see, these are -- lower right. Yes, that's
12 it. Yes, and if we could focus. Yes.
13 MS. RICHARDSON:
14 Q. Now, the area of Glogova, or the wider area I should say, that
15 area is located, is it not, between Bratunac and Kravica?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My question to you is: During the time -- I'll rephrase the
19 In December of 1992, on the 23rd and the 24th, prior to this time,
20 prior to the time that Glogova was liberated by the Muslim forces, could
21 you tell us whether it was in the hands of the Serbs?
22 A. They kicked us out on the 24th of August. They drove us out of
23 Glogova. In late summer and early autumn, another group entered Glogova
24 and it was in Glogova at that time.
25 Q. All right. So during that period of time the Serbs had it. Now,
1 you were just testifying -- you said it was important that your village
2 was recaptured by you, at least it was important for the people of
3 Glogova. But my question is: With respect to the military purpose of --
4 of Glogova, the area itself, once the Muslim forces managed to seize the
5 area of Glogova on the 23rd and the 24th of December, did this not
6 effectively mean that the Serbs from Bratunac and Kravica could no longer
7 communicate? In other words, Glogova was the line of communication for
8 the Serbs?
9 A. They -- or rather, their patrols controlled the road at the time.
10 The people at Glogova and Vares were surrounded, and all the other
11 villages I've mentioned. People where there from the right looking to the
12 direction of Bratunac. People were surrounded. Looking from Bratunac to
13 Kravica to the right, Muslims in those areas were surrounded.
14 Q. So it was important to the Muslims to re-take Glogova, other than
15 the fact that it was your village and you had, of course, a vested
16 interest in going back there?
17 A. Like I said, we already had people there who were nearly
18 surrounded. We had to go and help them, otherwise they would all have
19 been killed.
20 Q. So the answer is yes, that it was important to the Muslims to
21 re-take Glogova?
22 A. Of course, we had to go and defend our people.
23 Q. And having re-taken Glogova on the 24th of December, did this not
24 effectively result in the Serbs of Bratunac being unable to communicate
25 with the Serbs in Kravica? In other words, breaking their line of
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, yes.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection.
7 All the while the witness has been answering questions by the Prosecutor,
8 saying that part of the Muslims were surrounded in Glogova. And he keeps
9 saying part of the Muslims were in Glogova. And the Prosecutor persists
10 in claiming that the witness -- or putting it to the witness that they
11 re-took Glogova, thus continually confusing the witness.
12 Please, Witness, tell me: Are you not saying that you were in
13 Glogova the whole time?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm
15 saying that to the right of the road --
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, you have a right to object, of course,
18 but you don't have a right then to go straight to the witness and ask him
19 a question. Let the Trial Chamber do that.
20 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think at this point you can raise this matter on
23 re-examination if you want.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Now, who was responsible for the decision to attack Glogova or,
2 excuse me, re-capture Glogova?
3 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. Who specifically do you
4 mean who was responsible?
5 Q. All right. I can rephrase that. There was a decision made to go
6 in to Glogova on the 23rd and the 24th and to attack or counter-attack the
7 Serb forces, was there not?
8 A. Yes, meaning we wanted to go and help those people on that day.
9 Q. And who made the decision to go help these people?
10 A. As I've said before, Ejub came out in front of a group of people
11 in Cizmici and explained to them that there were people who were
12 surrounded. He asked whether we should go and help them or whether we
13 should just allow them all to be killed. Of course our decision was to go
14 and help.
15 Q. And you testified as far as you know -- well, I'll rephrase that
17 You testified last Wednesday that other than the men who fought
18 under Ejub Golic, there were no other fighters from any other areas
19 involved in this attack. Would that be correct?
20 A. No, no one, with the exception of Cizmici. I mean, the people of
21 Cizmici; no one else was there.
22 Q. And the people of Cizmici made up one of the four groups you've
23 testified was led by Ejub Golic?
24 A. Yes, they were in that group, that particular group that was at
25 Cizmici. Cizmici is a small village. There weren't that many of them,
1 perhaps as many as 15 or 20 men.
2 Q. And as far as you know, did Ejub Golic get the men together, the
3 400 approximate men, that made up part of your group and did he decide
4 what direction they would all go in?
5 A. No, I never mentioned how many. There was one large group at
6 Glogova, but I never said anything about the one at Cizmici. I don't
7 know, therefore I can't specify. There were no documents that were kept,
8 and I don't know how many men that group comprised.
9 Q. Well, you testified last Wednesday that there were approximately
10 400 men -- this is collectively of all the four groups, approximately?
11 A. You mean the total of four groups that were there. Is that what
12 you're referring to?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. I don't know. As I said, there were groups, but I don't know
15 about each and every one of them. You kept asking me to give you a
16 number, but I simply don't know this number.
17 Q. And as you sit here today, you still don't know how many men were
18 in the groups you participated in when you entered Glogova on the 23rd and
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And you don't know if it were 50 men or a hundred men. Would that
22 be correct?
23 A. That's right. I don't know the exact number. I can't say.
24 Q. Now, did Ejub Golic mention that re-taking Glogova would give the
25 Muslim forces a strategic advantage, in that it would cut off the
1 communication lines between the Serbs in Kravica and the Serbs in
3 A. I have already answered that question. I told you there were
4 people there. A group of men were at Glogova, and the civilians were
5 already there. Once they were surrounded, we just went there to help
6 them; that was the main objective we had, to help the people who were at
8 Q. And you do maintain, do you not, that the Serbs from Kravica was
9 getting assistance from the Serbs in Bratunac during that period of time
10 in 1992?
11 A. I'm not sure which specific date do you have in mind.
12 Q. In 1992, from May to December, up until the time that the Glogova
13 counter-attack took place, you maintain, do you not, that the Serbs from
14 Kravica and Jezestica were getting assistance from Bratunac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so, if you were to re-take Glogova it doesn't -- does it not
17 stand to reason that the Serbs in Kravica and Bratunac would no longer be
18 able to communicate?
19 A. We took the road near Glogova and they had another road to use,
20 the one from Bratunac through Polom and on to Kravica. So the one you're
21 referring to is not the only road being used by the Serbs in terms of
22 using it.
23 Q. Well, perhaps you can assist us and point to your map where the --
24 what road you're referring to that the Serbs could use. And if that map
25 isn't adequate, we can perhaps use the other map.
1 A. I can't see Bratunac here.
2 Q. If perhaps we can --
3 A. It's not on this map.
4 Q. I understand. Perhaps D793 can assist you.
5 A. Can I show it?
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 A. This is Bratunac here, and there's a road here along the river
8 Drina, Slapasnica, Krasno Polje, as far as Polom, and you can go along
9 this road and then they could go from Polom to Kravica. They could use
10 that road.
11 Q. Sir, you would admit, would you not, that that's a rather long way
12 for the Serbs to get from Bratunac to Kravica than going through Glogova?
13 A. Were we supposed to let them kill us all in Glogova so that they
14 could go any way they wanted? I don't know what you're trying to say to
16 Q. Perhaps you can answer my question and tell us: Based on what
17 you've just indicated on the map whether the distance from Bratunac to
18 Kravica, going the way that you pointed close to the Drina was
19 significantly further than them going through Glogova?
20 A. They had tanks. They had APCs. They had motor vehicles, and they
21 could use that road. It wouldn't have been such a big problem for them.
22 Q. So in other words -- so re-taking Glogova had no strategic
23 purpose, as far as you're concerned?
24 A. But I've been trying to explain to you all this time that there
25 were people on the right side of the road from Bratunac to Kravica. They
1 were in Velika Glogova and Kravica and people were encircled and we went
2 there to help those people. There's no other way I can explain it to you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's not belabour this point any further,
5 Ms. Richardson. Just ask the witness to explain again whether in his
6 opinion it would have been easier for the Serbs to move from Bratunac to
7 Kravica passing through Glogova than having to round the route that he
8 explained to us before, even considering the fact that they had tanks and
9 APCs and whatever. And we close the chapter on the strategic importance
10 of re-taking Glogova there, please.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And move to something different.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can have the usher assist
14 with moving the ELMO back a bit.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, sure. He's answered the question now.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. And I see we're trying a bit to shift
17 to see each other.
18 Q. Now, could you answer my question: Was it not in fact easier for
19 the Serbs to go through Glogova to get to -- to go through Glogova to get
20 to Kravica than it was for them to go the way you pointed out by means of
21 the second road by the Drina? Was it not easier for the Serbs to go
22 through Glogova? That is all I'm asking.
23 A. I think if a road is longer but safer, it's better than a shorter,
24 more dangerous road. In the same way, it would have been easier for us to
25 go to Konjevic Polje through Kravica, for example, but we couldn't.
1 Q. So your answer remains that Glogova was simply taken to just
2 re-take the village. Would that be correct?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has --
4 MR. JONES: And to save people's lives.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- made that point many a time already,
6 Ms. Richardson, referring to how his co-nationals were encircled at the
7 time and they had to be saved.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So that has a strategic value, of course.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: It thank you. I'll move on --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from we're talking about a war where Glogova
12 was taken by the Serbs in May and then re-taken and taken again and
13 re-taken again. I mean, it's a war. You're fighting continuously to gain
14 territory or re-gain what you've lost.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm ready to move on to my second
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: I think the witness has assisted us as best he
20 Q. So, Mr. -- Sir, I'd like you to take a look at this video that
21 we're about to play for you. And this is Prosecution's Exhibit 329. This
22 is Mr. Oric, who is seen on the video, as he is discussing the attack on
23 Glogova. If you could just listen and then I will have a series of
24 questions for you on this video.
25 [Videotape played]
1 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] So the General Staff of the 2nd
2 Corps then decided -- once we established communications with them they
3 decided, okay, let it be like that then as long as there is peace in the
4 house. They really were wild in the field. When they said that they
5 wanted to go and take Glogova, there was no one to stand in their way and
6 say: 'No, you can't.' So now we had to find a solution, how to go into
7 the village and how to keep it. This time we found out that the Chetniks
8 were preparing a strong offensive which would be carried out against the
9 area of Konjevic Polje and Cerska. This was one more reason for us to go
10 into Glogova. And we knew that this road was extremely important to
11 Kravica. We knew that be doing this we would physically cut them off
12 from -- we would cut the road and would physically cut them off from
13 Bratunac. The other thing was -- the other thing was that Glogova was in
14 the shape of a horseshoe and was surrounded on the other side by Chetniks,
15 except for the one side at the bottom which was open. But in this way
16 also, this would mean that Kravica itself would find itself in --
17 surrounded in the shape of an S; that is, there would be on the one side
18 Glogova, and then a little lower down from the other side, Konjevic Polje.
19 So in this way it would end up in a kind of sandwich between Muslim
21 "And then when -- when the fighters of Glogova went into the
22 village, when they took their trenches, there was -- there was very heavy
23 fighting and quite a lot of Chetniks were killed. The people from
24 Glogova, because they knew their parts, they knew the area so very well,
25 went behind their backs during the course of the night and attacked them
1 in the very early morning. And the majority of Chetniks who were holding
2 this line, protecting the road, were killed. I don't know the exact
3 number, but it was quite a lot. At that time, when the people of Glogova
4 are in their village, I had the task with my little group -- I and my
5 small group at this time had the task of holding the point, the peak, at
6 Lemesac, this is L-e-m-e-s-a-c, which is opposite and faces another peak
7 or another point called Paici, P-a-i-c-i, which was held by the Chetniks.
8 "We had the task of, firstly, blocking off this road to the
9 Chetniks and of keeping -- and of keeping it open for our forces to move
10 along and keeping the Chetniks from there that they would link up with
11 their forces on the next peak which was called Magasici, that's
12 M-a-g-a-s-i-c-i. This was a small hamlet of Kravica. It was just --
13 there were just four or five Serbian houses on this part, and there were a
14 few Muslim houses as well I don't know exactly how many. But there were
15 no Muslims nor Serbs there. So this was -- that means that this was just
16 a point and it was a strictly military place. From this point, you could
17 control the whole road from Bratunac to Kravica. And as this particular
18 action was not a very big one, there were only -- the only people involved
19 were fighters from the Potocari Territorial Defence, so a team -- so a
20 team of Senad Golubovic's, that is from the Pale Territorial Defence, went
21 up to Magasici. And so -- and so he went there, to Magasici, and then I
22 went with my small team. Our task then was to take Lemesac. Lemesac was
23 not covered by the Chetnik lines, but we thought that if the people from
24 Glogova would go down into their village that the Chetniks would then take
25 this point to cover the village, because if these two peaks, Lemesac and
1 Magasici, were connected, then nobody could be able to use the road
2 between them. And we had to first of all take Magasici and then hold
3 these two points at all costs."
4 MS. RICHARDSON:
5 Q. Sir, having heard what Naser Oric has said about his involvement
6 in the Glogova attack, do you still maintain that there was no assistance
7 to the fighting men -- the men who fought under Ejub Golic during this
8 period of time and during this attack?
9 A. No. It wasn't like this. I don't agree with this. I don't know
10 who Naser got information from, who gave him information. But I didn't
11 know what TO Potocari even was for a long time and who they were. I don't
12 agree with this.
13 Q. And perhaps you --
14 A. Let me tell you -- excuse me for interrupting. But if I hadn't
15 seen him around there ...
16 Q. All right. Now, perhaps you can assist us with the map and point
17 out those areas that are located, the ones that Naser Oric is talking
18 about --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment; sorry to interrupt.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Richardson, it's not our
22 fault. I just don't understand the answer that the witness -- it's an
23 incomplete one in any case for that matter. Let me tell you -- excuse me
24 for interrupting. "But if I hadn't seen him around there ..."
25 And that's all I have in the transcript. What were you about to
1 say or what did you say, if anything, that did not show up in the
2 transcript? I'm asking you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I didn't see him and I
4 didn't hear that he participated on that day anywhere.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I thank you for the
6 clarification, and that fills in the blank that there was.
7 Yes, Ms. Richardson, my apologies to you, and please proceed.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: No, and I do appreciate that, Your Honour, that
9 makes for a clearer record of the witness's testimony.
10 Q. Could you point out for us on Defence Exhibit 793 the area of
11 Lemesac that was just described by Naser Oric where he was.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: If he can on 7 -- yeah --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do see it myself.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: So perhaps he can find it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can see it.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. Perhaps you can locate Magasici, and it's right under Magasici.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's here.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you mark it with a different colour,
22 please. What's the colour used? Because on the monitor it's brown, but
23 I'm sure it isn't brown. So could you underline Lemesac, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.
1 MS. RICHARDSON:
2 Q. And could you also underline Pajici.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already underlined.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh, yes. Thank you, Your Honour, it is indeed.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could he just point out --
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. All right, Your Honour, I have no
7 further questions with respect to this attack.
8 Q. But perhaps you can -- you can also point out for us the area of
9 Zagoni on the map if you see it.
10 A. Here.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you underline it, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 MS. RICHARDSON:
15 Q. Were you or any of the men from Glogova involved in any attacks or
16 counter-offensive in this particular area, the area of Zagoni, in 1992 or
17 in 1993?
18 A. No. As far as I know, no.
19 Q. Okay, as far as you know. Okay. Thank you.
20 And I take it that you were not apprised of all the comings and
21 goings of the various men who fought under Ejub Golic during 1992 and the
22 early part of 1993?
23 A. I knew about the men from Glogova and Cizmici, I knew about them.
24 Q. And these men that you knew about and you're unable to give a
25 number, were you apprised that they had been participating in attacks in
1 Zagoni, for instance?
2 A. No. No, I wasn't.
3 Q. And I take it since you were not with your -- I'll rephrase the
5 During the period of time that you yourself participated in the
6 attacks, and you stated that you were in the area of Cizmici and Velika
7 Glogova, I take it you were not aware of where the other men were who
8 formed part of the group under Ejub Golic?
9 A. When we were in Velika Glogova and Vladusici and this forest,
10 those were three groups. I was there in 1992, and this fourth group was
11 in Cizmici. But nobody ever said that they had participated in an attack
12 on Zagoni. I never heard anyone talking about it.
13 Q. But they were -- they would not have told you about this because
14 you were not the leader of that group, would they? They would not have
15 been required to tell you?
16 A. They didn't tell me personally, but they would have told Ejub and
17 I would know about it.
18 Q. And did Ejub discuss every single attack and every single fighter
19 during 19 -- with you during 1992 and into 1993?
20 A. Not every fighter and every detail, but we talked about what was
21 going on.
22 Q. All right. Thank you.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't have any questions with respect to the
24 map at the moment.
25 Q. Now, I'd like to take you to the attack on Kravica which occurred
1 on the 7th of January, 1993. Now, you may have recalled that you
2 testified that you participated in this attack, as did Ejub Golic. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in addition to that you also stated that it was - and correct
6 me if I'm wrong of course - was it Ejub Golic's decision to attack Kravica
7 on the 7th of January, 1993?
8 A. It was like this: On the 3rd or 4th, this was the fiercest
9 offensive and only snow probably saved us from being killed, all of us in
10 Glogova. So we complained and wondered what to do. And he said he had
11 sent help everywhere, to Bljeceva, to Pale, to Suceska, and everywhere
12 else help had been sent. That's what he told us.
13 Q. And I imagine, based on what you know, he sent help to these areas
14 such as Suceska and Pale and Potocari because they themselves had a
15 Territorial Defence and had fighters?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a discrepancy -- in the transcript it shows
17 as if Ejub had sent help. You've put the question, and probably you're
18 right, that he sent for help. However, I notice Mr. Jones standing.
19 MR. JONES: It's that and it's also there's a double question in
20 there, Territorial Defence and fighters. If the witness answered yes to
21 fighters it would appear that he answered yes to Territorial Defence. So
22 if he could just have one question at a time.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if we could have a distinction between the two
24 and how you're going to rephrase your question and I also want to make
25 sure that when we have in the transcript lines 11, page 33 and he said he
1 sent help everywhere he meant to say or did say that he sent for help from
3 MS. RICHARDSON: And that's what I also said.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I understood.
5 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so, he asked
7 for help from all these places.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understand it to be, but -- and that
9 tallies with your interpretation of it.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So please proceed with your question, taking into
12 account the objection that Mr. Jones raised --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- which is a valid one.
15 MS. RICHARDSON:
16 Q. Sir, could you tell us if the reason that Ejub Golic sent for help
17 to areas such as Suceska and Potocari and Pale was because there was an
18 awareness by Mr. Ejub Golic that there were Territorial Defence men in the
19 area, in those areas?
20 A. I don't know whether he knew whether there was any Territorial
21 Defence there, but he asked for help because the Serbs had already taken
22 the left side of the road from Bratunac to Kravica. And we were
23 surrounded again. All of us were there then. We were surrounded again.
24 And I said there were about 2.000 Serbs attacking us at the time. I'd
25 never seen more soldiers in one place.
1 Q. Well, the reason he sent to Pale, Suceska, and Potocari was
2 because he was aware that there were fighting men, if you can accept this
3 proposition, who would assist.
4 A. He asked for help from those villages. I don't know who was
5 there, but he was asking for help from the villages I listed. And who
6 actually came to help --
7 Q. He wasn't asking for help from the civilians of Pale, Suceska, and
8 Potocari, was he?
9 A. Probably the fighters. I assume it was fighters.
10 Q. And what sort of help was he seeking?
11 A. Any kind of help, any kind of help, because we were in danger.
12 And whatever help arrived was welcome, whether it was fighters or food.
13 Q. And you -- when I say "you" -- I should rephrase it, sir. It was
14 Ejub Golic who decided to attack Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993, the
16 A. No. He did not decide. We didn't know. We requested help for
17 men to be sent to help us at Glogova. We ourselves were surrounded. We
18 were running out of ammunition. People had perhaps several bullets each
19 on them. The situation was difficult. It was the snow that saved then
20 us. I think had it not been for the snow we would have all been killed.
21 Q. Well, who decided to attack Kravica on the 7th of January if it
22 wasn't Ejub Golic?
23 A. We -- or rather, he requested assistance for us at Glogova. There
24 were heavy attacks coming, and we decided to all just go. It wasn't
25 simply Ejub Golic. It was all of us. It was Bozi -- it was Christmastime
1 and this was the best time to try to drive them back from those positions
2 because they were probably drunk. We believed this was our chance to push
3 them back.
4 Q. So a decision was made among all of the men in Ejub Golic's group
5 to attack Kravica on the 7th of January. Would that be correct?
6 A. As I said, we had no intention of attacking Kravica as such; our
7 intention was to push them back from these areas, Brezak, Jezestica, to
8 push them back and stop them from killing our people because this was a
9 situation we no longer put up with.
10 Q. So you decided to launch a counter-attack. Would that be correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, when you said you all decided to go, could you tell us where
13 the other men -- or where perhaps you were when you decided to go into
14 Kravica. What area specifically were you in?
15 A. Do you mean the area of attack or my whereabouts at the time?
16 Q. Well, I'll clarify. You stated "we decided to go." Could you
17 tell the Trial Chamber where -- where you were when you decided to go and
18 who were you with when you decided to go.
19 A. Yes. We took off from Brezak. It's the Muslim village that we
20 left at the time. There were between 40 and 50 of us in the group.
21 Q. And why did you take off from Brezak? Who made the decision for
22 you to take off from there?
23 A. That was where most of the attacks were coming from, the attacks
24 against us, and we can no longer defend ourselves and that's why we went
25 there. The remaining people who were at Glogova were holding other lines.
1 Q. And what other lines were they holding?
2 A. The broader lines, Velika Glogova, the entrance to Bratunac on the
3 way into Glogova, and then over in the other area, Halilovici, and Laksici
5 Q. So only 50 of you decided to go and launch a counter-attack.
6 Would that be correct?
7 A. Well, we set out from that side. I didn't know if there was
8 anyone else around. Probably other people arrived, probably help arrived.
9 I don't know who exactly arrived, what sort of help, but some help arrived
10 and we set out from there. I was wounded early in the morning at 8.30 and
11 9.00, and I had no idea what went on from that point on.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Whenever it's convenient for you,
13 Ms. Richardson.
14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, this is fine.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a 30-minute break starting
16 from now. Thank you.
17 --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.38 p.m.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you -- we proceed, Ms. Richardson, how much
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this is going beyond all -- all reasonable
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour. I venture to say no more
25 than 20 minutes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And re-examination --
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Maybe even --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Ms. Vidovic.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if there are no
5 substantial issues that I must address, it may be between 20 minutes and
6 half an hour. I'll try to be as brief as possible.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we're talking about another hour at the
8 most with this witness, which will bring us to almost 6.00. Yeah -- next
9 witness is here I take it, no?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, he is.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you intend to start with him today, I would
12 imagine? Because if you don't, I mean I'm not going to let this
13 individual stay here waiting -- what time did he get here, do you know?
14 Was he here --
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do. The witness arrived on
16 Thursday, and --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: At 2.00. He's been sitting here waiting since 2.00.
20 This is not fair; I mean, it shouldn't be done this way.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by the way, this man is
22 ill. He has high blood pressure and blood sugar. Maybe it would be a
23 good idea for him to rest and start tomorrow.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do it this way because I feel very strongly
25 about these things and have always felt very strongly on these matters.
1 Usher, could you please ask a member of the Victims and Witnesses
2 Unit to come inside the courtroom so that I speak to -- the representative
3 of the unit only so that I speak to her or him and explain exactly what I
4 need to now.
5 In the meantime, let's continue, Ms. Richardson.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, you were just testifying about the assistance that you
8 received -- well, I don't want to put words in your mouth at this point,
9 so perhaps I can just briefly recap what you've said on the record. You
10 stated that at least 50 of you proceeded and that you went to the
11 counter-attack. And you said that probably others arrived to assist.
12 First, could you tell the Trial Chamber how it was that Ejub Golic sent to
13 these different areas for assistance?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean which manner? In what manner?
15 MS. RICHARDSON: In which manner, yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 Q. How did he do this?
17 A. He sent people from Glogova who had no weapons, who were not at
18 the line, at the front line. He sent those people to go and seek help
20 Q. All right. And he sent people to -- I take it he didn't send the
21 same person. He sent different individuals to different areas. Would
22 that be correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. Several different people, yes.
24 Q. And in addition to Potocari, Suceska, and Pale, he also sent
25 someone to Beleceva [phoen]. Do you recall if he sent someone to Beleceva
1 or Beleseva? I may not be pronouncing it correctly.
2 A. Bljeceva perhaps?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. He sent someone to there, to Pale, to Suceska, everywhere, to all
5 these places where he believed that people would come and help.
6 Q. Okay. In addition to the ones that you listed, did he send
7 some -- anyone to Srebrenica?
8 A. I've already said that. He sent men everywhere to seek help.
9 Q. Well, it's very important, sir, that you tell us exactly where it
10 was that he sent these individuals. These are very important proceedings
11 and we need to be as specific as possible when we can. So could you
12 answer my question: Did he send anyone to Srebrenica?
13 A. You see, I think he sent a total of between 10 and 15 people and
14 these people went to different places in these areas and probably they
15 also went to Srebrenica. I assume so.
16 Q. And did they go on foot or did they have another means of
17 transportation such as horses or vehicles?
18 A. They went on foot.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One moment.
20 Let's -- let me have a word with the representative of the VWS.
21 Oh, I didn't mean the head. I didn't mean the head of the unit.
22 I mean, I just meant the lady who is tending to the witness.
23 Madam, my apologies to you.
24 MS. CAILLOUX: Not at all, Your Honour, it's okay for me. It's
25 not a problem at all.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but I didn't ask you -- last thing I dreamt
2 was to get the head --
3 That's a small misunderstanding.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Head of the unit. I just want the young lady who is
5 tending to the next witness and not Madam. I apologise to you.
6 MS. CAILLOUX: But it's -- do you prefer that other person? For
7 me it's not a problem.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because this is a rather simple formality that I
9 just want this lady to have a word with the next witness, explain to him
10 the predicament that we are in, and that, if at all, we will only have
11 maybe a maximum of about 20 to, maximum, 30 minutes which we could
12 dedicate for him, if at all, whether he would prefer particularly since he
13 is not the fittest of human beings, whether he would prefer that we sent
14 him back to the hotel now so he rests and then we start with him tomorrow
15 morning. So -- but again, I mean, last thing I expected was to have you
17 MS. CAILLOUX: It is a pleasure to come to your courtroom. So we
18 will do it straight away.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I just want a sort of reply and then, if he
20 prefers to go to the hotel, I'll just send the witness out for a couple of
21 minutes, I'll get him here, I'll apologise to him, and he can then be
22 escorted to the hotel and I will explain to him exactly what. All right?
23 Thanks a lot.
24 MS. CAILLOUX: Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
1 MR. JONES: At least it wasn't the registrar.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies to everyone, and to you particularly,
3 Ms. Richardson, for having interrupted to you. Let's proceed.
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
5 Q. No, sir, you said Ejub Golic sent 10 to 15 people to different
6 areas. In your opinion, during the counter-attack while you were present
7 in Kravica, did these other people from the different areas arrive? I can
8 rephrase the question if you'd like.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Not a problem, Your Honour.
23 Q. I'll restate my question to you. You said that probably others
24 arrived to assist you and Ejub Golic and the 15 other men when you
25 attacked -- excuse me, a counter-attack on Kravica. Would that be
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And these other people --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment and one other thing because I think I
5 better do this. And please redact this position -- this part from line
6 20 -- sorry, from line 12 of page 42 until line 23. The reason -- let's
7 go into private session.
8 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson. Again, sorry, but it was
17 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.
18 Q. Sir, we were discussing the assistance that you received from the
19 different areas. You stated that Ejub Golic had sent to different areas
20 about 10 to 15 people to ask for assistance. Now, my question to you is:
21 You stated that "probably others arrived." I'm just quoting what you
22 stated. Could you tell us whether in fact it's your belief and
23 understanding that these others who arrived came from the areas that Ejub
24 Golic sought assistance from?
25 A. I assume so.
1 Q. And when you say "probably others arrived," were you present when
2 they arrived, others who were not part of the four groups of men led by
3 Ejub Golic?
4 A. No. That's why I'm saying that I'm merely assuming. I didn't see
5 any of those men. It was early in the morning.
6 Q. Well, did you later hear or did anyone tell you that assistance
7 did come, as Ejub Golic had sought?
8 A. When the fighting began, the firing was heavy, the fighting was
9 heavy. So I assumed that help had arrived.
10 Q. And did Ejub Golic, as far as you know, tell the different -- tell
11 the 10 to 15 men to communicate to the areas such as Potocari, Suceska,
12 and Pale, to tell them that he was planning the attack for January 7th?
13 A. No. He sought help for us, the people of Glogova, not for an
15 Q. Well, when you say he sought help, what kind of help were you --
16 was he seeking as far as you know?
17 A. Any help, both in terms of manpower and in terms of ammunition.
18 Any help was welcome.
19 Q. But the help was so that -- to assist with your counter-attack on
21 A. We had no intention of attacking Kravica. That is the truth. We
22 had no such intention. Our intention was to push them back from those
23 areas, Brezak, and those areas just to relieve our own situation.
24 Q. So the other people who arrived to help you from the different
25 areas -- you say probably when others arrived the fighting was fierce. Is
1 it your position that they never knew what day the attack in Kravica was
2 supposed to take place, that Ejub Golic never told them?
3 A. I don't think he did. I think, by some logic, we assumed that the
4 easiest for us to push them back would be on the 7th because that was the
5 Orthodox Christmas, it fell on that day, and we reckoned this was our
6 opportunity to push them back from that area.
7 Q. And the other groups who -- who you said are -- that -- the help
8 that you -- that arrived, is it your opinion that it was just coincidence
9 that they, too, arrived on the 7th and assisted on the attack on Kravica?
10 A. Well, you see, I can't say whether it was the 3rd or the 4th of
11 January, but he sent those people out, he did. Now, I can't say whether
12 this was a coincidence or whether it happened for a reason.
13 Q. Well, I put it to you, sir, that it was not a coincidence, that
14 this -- that the attack on Kravica was planned for the 7th along with Ejub
15 Golic, his group, and from fighters in the areas that you just
16 suggested -- that you just testified Ejub Golic sought assistance from.
17 Those groups were Suceska, Pale, Potocari. Can you accept that position?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right?
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I'd like a video to be
21 shown to the witness, and this is Prosecution's Exhibit 329. And the time
22 is 126.96.36.199.
23 [Videotape played]
24 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Naturally we had a meeting of the
25 War Presidency, meetings of the subregions, that is the complement that we
1 had before, the president of the subregion was Hamed Salihovic. And the
2 decision was reached that it had to be taken at all costs. Immediately
3 the plans started to be worked on. As far as regards reconnaissance, it
4 wasn't necessary to carry out reconnaissance because everybody knew
5 exactly where the lines were and where it could be attacked -- where the
6 attacks would come from -- would be carried out. We observed them for
7 days, but we just didn't have the means to attack them. We watched every
8 move of theirs and every change along their front lines. So they -- so
9 they did the plan very -- very quickly, Hamed Salihovic and Ramiz
11 "This wasn't any particular plan that you had to be very clever
12 about. It was just a question of allocating directions and lines of
13 attack along the firing lines, on the front lines. As the people from
14 Glogova had already gone into Glogova and cut off that road and were --
15 and were doing very well to keep the barricades they had established along
16 the road toward Bratunac.
17 "Ejub said that he didn't need very many extra men to cover
18 these -- these lines, that he needed just two anti-aircraft machine-guns
19 on two points and not -- or several machine-guns which would have enough
20 ammunition, that they would be able to shoot as much as they needed to if
21 the Chetniks were to attack, but that this whole line around the other
22 side would move towards Magasici and -- that is, along this line from
23 Magasici, Gavrici, and Tursan Brdo. So he would go with his people from
24 Glogova together with the Pale Territorial Defence. They would attack
25 from this flank and Konjevic Polje. As Konjevic Polje zone of
1 responsibility extended immediately to -- right up to, rather, Kravica,
2 but they would deploy their forces so that they could attack from the
3 other flank. The Potocari Territorial Defence, the Kragljivoda
4 Territorial Defence, and Suceska Territorial Defence would carry out
5 ground forces and would act from the direction of Susnjari, from the
6 direction of Pale, and the direction of Jaglici."
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
8 Q. Now, sir, having listened to Naser Oric discuss the participation
9 of the various Territorial Defence unit from Suceska, Pale, and others, is
10 it still your position that the attack on Kravica was not a planned one,
11 the attack that occurred on the 7th of January?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, in fairness to the witness the date
14 of 7th of January was not mentioned there.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The date has not been mentioned. In fact, I thought
16 this whole process was to establish actually whether the arrival of all
17 these forces from everywhere on the same -- at the same time -- that's
18 what I was expecting from the video recording actually, the decision to
19 attack on the 7th of January.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just a moment.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's why I allowed the objection before he
22 gives the answer.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we'll come back to that in a moment.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So rephrase your question on --
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Because of course you have every right to ask the
2 question at this stage that you intended to ask at this stage but without
3 reference to the 7th of January because, as Mr. Jones pointed out, that
4 was not mentioned as--
5 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.
6 Q. Leaving aside the 7th of January, having heard of the involvement
7 of at least Ejub Golic, is it still your position that there was no
8 planning on the part of anyone outside of Ejub Golic's group to attack on
9 the 7th of January?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we've come back to the 7th of January.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour -- to attack in early January,
12 Your Honour.
13 MR. JONES: Even that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but even that. I mean, here we are talking
15 of -- forget the fact that you know exactly the entire content of this
16 interview and that we also know it and that Mr. Jones and Madam Vidovic
17 know it as well, but the witness doesn't.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So it has to -- the question that you have to put to
20 the witness has to be a neutral one without any reference to any
21 particular day. The interview here refers to an attack, a planned attack,
22 on Kravica. It doesn't specify when. So stick to that for the time
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we'll -- that's not a problem.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you want to tie it up to a particular date,
1 you are perfectly entitled to do that later. But not at the present
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Not a problem, Your Honour.
4 Q. Having heard Naser Oric, sir, in this video, including what he has
5 said about the involvement of Ejub Golic, is it still your position that
6 there was no planned attack for Kravica?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ever.
8 MS. RICHARDSON:
9 Q. Ever?
10 A. As for Glogova and the attack on the Muslims of Glogova, I believe
11 there was no plan from Glogova. We only asked for help -- to be helped.
12 I don't know what information he had or what they were doing up there.
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Just a moment, Your Honour. That's fine.
14 Q. Now, with respect to the -- what took place in Kravica on the 7th,
15 now leaving aside the video, and the fierce fighting that took place, did
16 Ejub Golic recover - and I say Ejub Golic along with his men - recover any
17 type of weapons in that action?
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness was not
19 getting interpretation. Excuse me.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's important to know.
21 Have you heard the question that Madam Richardson put to you or
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So you need -- thank you for pointing that out,
25 Ms. Vidovic.
1 Please, Ms. Richardson, you need to repeat the question and I want
2 to make sure that you are receiving interpretation. I told you in the
3 beginning last week that if at any time you are not receiving
4 interpretation to draw our attention straight away because we are not in a
5 position to know because we are following in English, not in Serbo-Croat.
6 All right.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was going to say it right away,
8 but --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. It's -- yes, Ms. Richardson.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. Regarding the attack on Glogova -- Kravica on the 7th of January,
12 and you indicated previously that there was fierce fighting that day. Do
13 you recall whether Ejub Golic and the men associated in his group
14 recovered any weapons that day?
15 A. I've already said that in the morning at around 8.30 or 9.00 I was
16 seriously wounded at Brezak. I was transferred to Cizmici and from there
17 to Srebrenica, and I spent three weeks in hospital in Srebrenica. So I'm
18 not familiar with anything to do with that.
19 Q. But you don't discount the possibility that weapons were
20 recovered, do you?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So what, do you -- where does it take you if it is a
22 -- discount the possibility.
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I believe the witness --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If he doesn't know, that's it. I mean, it's -- try
25 to establish --
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can ask another question.
2 Q. Were you ever told that weapons were recovered in Kravica by Ejub
4 A. I've already said I didn't know. Maybe some infantry weapons, but
5 I don't know.
6 Q. That's fine. I'll move on to another area. Were you aware of
7 whether or not Ejub Golic and his men had taken part in an attack or a
8 counter-attack in the area of Glodjansko Brdo?
9 A. I didn't understand. What hill?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. -- Usually Mr. Di Fazio performs better than you
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I can spell it out for the
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Not a problem.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If he can help us --
17 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm not sure if his pronunciation would be better
18 but --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Please spell it out. Spell it out, Ms. Richardson.
20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think it's best we spell out for
21 the record, in any event. The name of the area is G-l-o-d-a-n-s-k-o
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Glodjansko Brdo.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Brdo.
25 Q. Is that sound familiar to you?
1 A. I understand now what you said, but, no, no, it's not familiar,
3 Q. So you have no knowledge of whether or not Ejub Golic and men from
4 his group participated in any type of attack or counter-attack in this
6 A. No.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd like the witness to be shown a
8 video at this time. And again, that's Prosecution's Exhibit 329.
9 [Videotape played]
10 "Daniel PERRY: Surprise attack on Glodjansko Brdo. When you
11 attacked the trenches, it's a surprise attack. Is that correct?
12 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, we surprised them.
13 "Daniel PERRY: "When the attack occurs, you're very close to the
14 enemy because you have to sneak up. Is that correct?
15 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 "Daniel PERRY: "The attack takes place over a period of how many
17 hours? How long does it take to actually have the trench line?
18 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] It took a long time. I don't know
19 how many hours.
20 "Daniel PERRY: How long would you say?
21 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] I don't remember exactly.
22 "Daniel PERRY: You were at the battle, though?
23 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Yes. When you go into something
24 like that, you lose all sense of time and place.
25 "Daniel PERRY: So it could have taken a short period of time
2 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't a short time. They
3 offered great resistance. It wasn't -- it wasn't just -- it wasn't just
4 bang, bang, and they run away, and then let's go on. They have rifles and
6 "Daniel PERRY: They offer enough resistance that Mr. Golic is
7 coming up with his troops on the flank and behind. So that they are
8 now -- if they are offering so much resistance they are sitting in there
9 between you and Mr. Golic and having to retreat down the back of the hill?
10 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Who? Who now?
11 "Daniel PERRY: Who? The Serb soldiers?
12 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] They could have gone in that
13 direction. I can show you on the map. Can I have the map?
14 "Daniel PERRY: Certainly. What you're saying, though, is that
15 the resistance lasted a long period of time while they were in the
17 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 "Daniel PERRY: Okay. And what I'm saying to you is Mr. Golic,
19 according to what you've explained, is coming up to the flank and in
20 behind -- if you can, if they're still sitting in the trenches and they're
21 offering resistance to you and your units were coming up facing them, then
22 what is happening to the Serb soldiers at that point?
23 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to show you now. If I'm --
24 if I'm attacking here from the front, a frontal attack, I can guarantee
25 that the line is at least 2 kilometres -- at the very least 2 kilometres
1 long and it's a very broken line --
2 "Daniel PERRY: Except for a line that long, you have to have a
3 lot of Chetniks on that line.
4 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] Look now. If Ejub attacks from this
5 side and he destroys this trench at the beginning, he surprises them and
6 destroys it, that means that they have now discovered it, but then there's
7 a second trench which covers this first one and can immediately start
8 shooting. So the first trench is eliminated, but you can't get to the
9 second trench because they've now opened part of it there towards the
10 first trench. Let's -- let's just say for the sake of argument that Ejub
11 Golic was able to get around the back of the first trench and to destroy
12 it, but all of the others still had a chance to leave.
13 "Daniel PERRY: Yes. But at the same time he -- don't forget that
14 Ejub Golic is still moving.
15 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] But it's not just that he's going.
16 They're shooting."
17 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.
18 Q. Now, sir, having watched this portion of the videotape and a
19 description of Ejub Golic's participation by Naser Oric on the attack on
20 Glodjansko Brdo if I'm pronouncing it correctly, do you have any knowledge
21 of this attack?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a
24 misinterpretation of what was seen in the video. Naser Oric was not
25 describing anything that had to do with Ejub Golic. It was rather the
1 investigator who insisted that Naser Oric describe this, and Naser Oric is
2 providing a hypothetical account of events. So it can't be put to the
3 witness that this is how Naser Oric described Ejub Golic's participation
4 in the interview.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't disagree --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Respectfully, all of it -- let's assume for
7 argument's sake that this is what was happening -- this is what happened.
8 This is the gist of the statement being made allegedly by Mr. Oric here in
9 this tape --
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Interview.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, my question to the witness is simply
13 whether or not he has knowledge of Mr. Golic's involvement in Glodjansko
14 Brdo, having heard what he's heard on the videotape, whether it's a
15 hypothetical or not.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically he didn't even have to hear the -- what
17 there was on the tape in any case. So --
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. So having heard what was said on the tape, does this jog your
20 memory or does this give you a better recollection or is your answer still
21 you're not aware of Ejub Golic's involvement in Glodjansko Brdo?
22 A. I don't know whether he participated with anyone in Glodjansko
23 Brdo, and I don't know where Naser got this information. I can't say
24 anything about this.
25 Q. All right. Fine. Thank you. Now, I just have a few more
1 questions for you. You were asked about Ejub Golic and whether or not you
2 were aware of his position in the Bratunac municipality. Do you recall
3 that? In 1993.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, were you -- when you were in Srebrenica after you were
6 injured, and I believe you went back to Cizmici, but you returned to
7 Srebrenica in March of 1993 and you stayed in Srebrenica until the fall of
8 Srebrenica with the exception of going to visit your mother in Cizmici. I
9 believe that was your testimony. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes. I spent about three weeks in hospital and then I didn't get
11 to Srebrenica as soon as UNPROFOR arrived. It was sometime in the summer
12 of 1993 that I went to Srebrenica.
13 Q. Now, do you recall during that period of time while you were in
14 Srebrenica whether your -- your -- excuse me. I'll rephrase the question.
15 During the time that you were in Srebrenica, were you aware of any
16 problems involving men who were under the command of Ejub Golic? When I
17 say "problems," that they had been involved in any crimes or had been
18 arrested in Srebrenica.
19 A. I don't know what you mean. What are you referring to?
20 Q. Do you know of someone by the name of Nezir Mrdzic, M-r-d-z-i-c.
21 A. Nezir Mrdzic, Kezo, yes, I do know him. Yes.
22 Q. And he was one of the men who fought under Ejub Golic, who had
23 Ejub Golic as his leader?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you recall sometime in 1994 that he had been arrested and was
1 being held in Srebrenica prison?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you recall that your -- that -- I'll rephrase the question.
4 What was he arrested for?
5 A. He created a problem. This Nezir Mrdzic, known as Kezo, and as
6 far as I know Ejub locked him up in prison. He personally locked him up
7 in prison. The man was in prison for two or three months. Nothing was
8 solved. He didn't get any decision from anyone, and I remember that
9 Ejub -- he was probably drunk. I wasn't there in that group, but I heard
10 that he was a drunk. And as nothing had been resolved he set out to free
11 him from prison.
12 Q. Who set out to free him from prison?
13 A. Ejub set out with a few men. I don't know who exactly was with
14 him because I wasn't there, but that's what I heard.
15 Q. And how did they set out to free him? Did they go to the prison
16 and release him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as a result was Ejub himself either arrested or any type of
19 legal action taken against him?
20 A. I'm not aware whether or not he was arrested. I know that he did
21 get Kezo out of prison and that he personally took him back to prison.
22 Q. When you say "personally took him back to prison," on whose orders
23 did he take him back to prison?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Why? Because you're assuming that he did this under
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Why did he take him back -- first he frees him and
3 then he takes him back. Why did he take him back to prison?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for two or three months this
5 man had been sitting in prison, and his case did not proceed. He didn't
6 get any kind of decision, any kind of sentence or anything. And then one
7 evening he got drunk and set out toward the prison and freed him from the
8 prison. Probably when he had sobered up and realised what had happened,
9 he took him back again. And then the authorities, I don't know who was
10 involved, they speeded up the proceedings in Nezir's case.
11 MS. RICHARDSON:
12 Q. In addition to that incident involving Ejub Golic, do you know if
13 he was involved in any other criminal activity or was he arrested or
14 accused of committing any crimes in Srebrenica in 1993, 1994, and 1995?
15 A. I don't know what you're referring to. Criminal activities is a
16 very broad idea.
17 Q. I'll rephrase the question and be more specific. Were you aware
18 that Ejub Golic had been accused of killing two Muslims in Srebrenica in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as far as you know, was he ever arrested for killing these two
23 A. No, he wasn't arrested. I think that the men around him would not
24 have allowed his arrest.
25 Q. When you say "not allowed," what do you mean by that? Not allowed
1 the police to arrest him?
2 A. Yes. They wouldn't have let the police arrest him and there would
3 probably have been a clash between his men and the authorities.
4 Q. And do you know whether during that period of time he was under
5 the command of Naser Oric?
6 A. No, he wasn't.
7 Q. And who would have arrested him in Srebrenica during that period
8 of time?
9 A. Who could have arrested him, you mean?
10 Q. No. You stated that he would not -- his men would not have
11 permitted his arrest. So I'm asking: Who would have arrested him?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was in a position to --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Who was in a position -- thank you, Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think anyone could have
15 arrested him because the fact that he wasn't arrested shows that nobody
16 could have done it.
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. Well --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But Kezo was arrested. Who arrested Kezo?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ejub arrested him, put him in
21 prison, got him out of prison, and then put him back again. It was Ejub
22 who did that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. At this time I would like the
25 witness to be shown an exhibit.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please bring your cross-examination -- because --
2 to an end because we can't continue like this and we're going to
4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, this has gone beyond all acceptable limits.
6 And we will stick -- and I'll discuss this with my two colleagues
7 tomorrow. Once you indicate how much time you're going to spend with each
8 witness, that will be the maximum time that you will be allowed, Defence
9 and Prosecution.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, as a matter of fact I am not going
11 to show the witness any exhibits at the moment. What I will do, however,
12 is ask him -- I'm bringing my examination to an end. We do have some
13 documents here; however, I'll put those to the side.
14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's simply this, that I'm not sure if we
15 exceeded any --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not referring to you.
17 MR. JONES: It's just your indication that we'll be subjected to
18 the same rigid scrutiny.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be asked to stick to the time limit that
20 you indicate.
21 MR. JONES: I'm just clear we're being punished for the
22 Prosecution's failure to stick to their time limits.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Everyone will be asked to that. It's a simple of --
24 we have to regulate our -- discipline ourselves. We can't go on like
25 this. At 10 -- quarter to 5.00 you said you needed 20 minutes, maximum
1 30. We lost a couple of minutes because of the other matter that we dealt
2 with, but I went through the transcript. At 4.50 you started.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour at this --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So --
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We're 30, 40 minutes already.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour, I have exceeded my time and
8 so I will proceed to ask a couple of questions and end my
9 cross-examination. However, I will introduce this new document through
10 this witness. The ERN number 02622014 and the next document is 0622015
11 [sic]. And I will not belabour the documents before this witness, except
12 with respect to document ERN 02622014.
13 Q. Sir, I would ask you to bring your attention to a portion of this
14 document towards the end which starts with -- it's the last sentence on
15 the document. And just to put the title of the document into the
16 record. "Army of Republika Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command,
17 security department, Tuzla, dated the 8th of March, 1995, Tuzla." It is
18 entitled "Ejub Golic, violent behaviour." And it also states towards the
19 end of the document: "Immediately on this case to the 2nd Corps military
20 security service bodies, take all legal measure for the people who were
21 taken out of prison to be returned and to take legal measures against Ejub
22 Golic for the committed -- for committed criminal acts."
23 Now, you've already testified that you were not aware of any
24 action being taken against him. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. That's fine. All right. Now, I would put the -- thank you. I
2 would put the second document before you and that's ending 2015. Now,
3 this document is dated the 11th of March, 1995. It is from the Republic
4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, transitory municipal council Srebrenica. And
5 the second page of this document -- and I'm referring to the English
6 version, page 2. I am going to read from a portion of the document.
7 "Full support was given to our commander of the 28th Division,
8 Brigadier Naser Oric;
9 "Decision was brought on imprisoning and taking Nezir Merdzic and
10 Sadik Begic to the municipal prison, which was already done;"
11 Towards the end it states: "On the issue of the perpetrator of
12 the harsh incident, Ejub Golic, the proposal of our Commander
13 Brigadier Naser Oric was adopted, that he, taking into consideration the
14 difficult situation we found ourselves in consults you gentleman, which he
15 already did with his letter from 10 March, 1995 ... We ask you to adopt
16 the proposal of our Commander so that the Golic -- so that the case
17 "Golic" leaves the least possible consequences for all of us in the
18 region of Srebrenica municipality free territory.
19 "At the same time" -- the last sentence, "the same time, we ask
20 you again that as soon as circumstances are created, you allow our
21 Commander Brigadier Naser Oric to continue his planned journey, since it
22 is of great importance ..."
23 Now, my question to you, sir, is whether or not you were aware
24 that Naser Oric had been informed of Ejub Golic and the incident of him
25 taking men out of the prison in Srebrenica. Were you aware that Naser
1 Oric had been apprised of this?
2 A. I don't think Naser Oric was in Srebrenica at the time. I don't
3 think he was there. I think he was in the Tuzla area.
4 Q. All right. And --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, either the Prosecutor
7 is reading a different document or they are again dealing with an
8 incorrect translation because what she read for the case must be left for
9 some better times. There is nothing that sounds even remotely like it in
10 the document that I have.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, if --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So the translation is being challenged here --
13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not sure exactly what part of
14 the translation is being challenged.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: But the document I have -- I'm reading from the
17 English version. So in any event, Your Honour, we'd like these two
18 documents to be given an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the first one -- yes, Madam Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the penultimate
21 portion, 02622015, that's the document we're talking about. I'm talking
22 about the second-to-last section that was quoted by the Prosecutor, but
23 the quote was not consistent with anything in the Bosnian original.
24 That's what I'm trying to say.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can resolve this
2 matter --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, please do. We are not going to deal
4 with it now. The first of these two documents with ERN 02622014
5 consisting of one page in the Serbo-Croat language and two pages in
6 English is being entered in the records as Prosecution Exhibit P --
7 THE REGISTRAR: P577, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: 577.
9 And the subsequent document with ERN 02622015 consisting also on
10 one page in B/C/S and two pages in English is being marked as Prosecution
11 Exhibit P578. Yes.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, sir, as you just stated that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more, Ms. Richardson, please?
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have two questions and one
16 exhibit. As a matter of fact, I can make that one question and one
17 exhibit, which is very important.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I hold you responsible if this man has to stay here
19 another day because I will give Ms. Vidovic all the time she requires to
20 conduct her re-examination and there -- we also need time to put questions
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have one final question.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Then conclude, please.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would like the -- that the witness
25 be shown a new exhibit, and this will take exactly no time at all.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And, registrar, please prepare me for tomorrow, to
2 your leisure and pleasure, a time -- an indication of how long this
3 witness has been testifying, leaving out, of course, interruptions,
4 particularly -- I mean -- particularly on the Prosecution's side,
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Now, Mr. -- sir, just so that you're aware, I just have one
8 question with respect to the documents that I'm about to show you. It has
9 to do with whether or not you receive any commendation or whether your
10 name had been submitted for any commendation or special declaration by
11 Srebrenica, the armed forces in Srebrenica. So that is the -- that is
12 exactly what my question will deal with. Now, the first document, this is
13 a document ending in ERN number 00717689. Now, the English of that
14 document has -- has -- has also been handed out. And I should say this is
15 just the relevant pages of this document that pertains specifically to
16 this witness, and it's from the Army of the Republic of BiH, the 28th
17 Division command, Srebrenica, the 3rd -- April 3rd, 1995. And it has your
18 name, (redacted), and I'll direct you to page --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Ms. Richardson. I have to do
20 another redaction.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh. I apologise, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Prepare it please, Madam Registrar.
23 And while being prepared -- also while the original document, in
24 other words the B/C/S version will be filed regularly, the English
25 translation thereof will go under seal.
1 Yes, let's get it over and done with, Ms. Richardson, please.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
3 Q. I referred you to ERN number 00717692. That's where your name
4 appears on the B/C/S version of the document. Now we're looking at the
5 English version that says page 1 of 3, and this is just an excerpt from
6 that document. And, sir, it has your name. Did you find it?
7 A. Yes.
14 Here, usher, please.
15 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
12 Witness, do you know who Azmir Golic is or was?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you tell us who he was or who he is?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the lad. I know him well.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 Your question, Ms. Richardson.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
19 Q. And is he also from Glogova and he was one of the members of Ejub
20 Golic's group?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, sir, on the first -- with respect to the information
23 regarding yourself -- and I don't have the time to read the entire portion
24 of this document, but it does state that on the 9th of May, 1992, with a
25 group of --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session again, because then,
2 if you're going to read and the document is public, in public domain, one
3 can trace who the individual is.
4 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.
2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
3 Q. This document also states with respect to this individual, "he was
4 a native -- when the war broke out he was in his native Glogova, and after
5 Glogova had been occupied by the aggressor with a group of Territorial
6 Defence members he went to Cizmici via Stolac on the 10th of May, 1992,
7 and put himself at the disposal of the Srebrenica TO."
8 Now, sir, having heard that information about this individual, is
9 it in fact true that he also put himself at the disposal of the Srebrenica
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That also was out of place.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That also is out of place because you don't have a
14 recognition or an admission from the witness that anyone else put himself
15 at the disposal of the Srebrenica TO.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can ask.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. Did Mr. Golic, as far as you know, not you, as mayor, as Mayor
20 Golic referred to in this document put himself at the Srebrenica TO -- at
21 the disposal of the Srebrenica TO?
22 A. No. He was in Velika Glogova with the same group that I was.
23 Q. Okay. And finally with respect to the last document that's been
24 put before you, and that's ERN number DA183832. I believe you have it.
25 Now, this document is from the Army of Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
1 2nd Command, Department of Morale, and it's dated January 17, 1995,
2 information, your proposal for assimilating measures and awarding
3 declarations. Strictly confidential, et cetera. The following decision
4 has been made. And I'm reading from the document. (redacted)
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go on.
10 MS. RICHARDSON:
11 Q. That your name, sir, is listed here as one of the individuals who
12 is -- a decision has been made regarding receipt of a decoration. Are you
13 aware of that, sir?
14 A. I see my name in this document, but I never heard that I was
15 proposed by anyone for this decoration, nor was I ever in fact awarded a
16 Gold Lily.
17 Q. Thank you?
18 A. If I may be allowed to add something in relation to what we said
19 about what I was looking at a while ago. Another document that I -- that
20 had my name on it.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine. If you would
22 allow the witness to add anything. That's why -- I don't have any more
23 questions --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you want to add? Please be as concise
25 because otherwise you're going to stay here another day.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll tend to these documents and I
7 have no further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then let's redact these last three lines
9 that the witness pronounced, please -- stated. The first of these
10 documents with ERN 00717689 to 708, both pages included, is being marked
11 as Prosecution Exhibit P579. The corresponding translation into English
12 consisting of three pages will be kept under seal.
13 The second of these documents with ERN DA18-3832, two pages in the
14 Bosnian language, will be marked as Prosecution Exhibit P580, and a
15 corresponding translation into English and consisting in two pages will be
16 kept under seal.
17 Yes, Madam Vidovic, I -- I wouldn't even dare tell you finish by a
18 certain time, given these circumstances. But ...
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:
21 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we could just go
23 into private session for a while, I wish to deal with --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- the last document that was used.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 12109 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You tell us the corresponding page in English. We
21 can perhaps arrange to have it on the --
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course, Your Honour.
23 The page is 25 in the English and 50 in the Bosnian. 25 for English, 50
24 for Bosnian.
25 Q. Witness, it reads here, I quote the beginning: "The largest
1 Bosnian village in Bratunac municipality, Glogova, was the one that
2 suffered the worst genocide."
3 Have you found that? That is in the bottom third of the page on
4 page 50. Can you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you please listen closely to what I'm reading. "The original
7 deadline for the surrender of arms set for the 20th of April, 1992, was
8 extended until the 27th of April, 1992, because of problems in Potocari,
9 and the SDS had enough time to plan their raid on Glogova."
10 Please, Witness, do you remember yourself testifying about these
11 events surrounding the collection of weapons?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please tell us if this is in fact true at all, what the
14 book states, that a collection was scheduled for the 24th and then
15 postponed until the 27th, or did something else happen?
16 A. No. It was never postponed. The date was the 25th, the 25th of
18 Q. Yes, indeed. This date, the 24th of April, 1992.
19 You said the 25th of April --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he said the 25th of May.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
22 Q. What did you say, Witness? What did you say?
23 A. I may have mispronounced. I meant April. I may have said "May,"
24 but what I meant was April.
25 Q. Please, what was the date of the ultimatum, once again?
1 A. The 25th.
2 Q. April or May?
3 A. April.
4 Q. Thank you. So this date, the 20th of April, 1992, is that correct
5 or not?
6 A. That's not correct. I don't know who wrote this book. It's not
7 correct. Thank you.
8 Q. Do you remember on the first day of your testimony I asked you
9 about the dreadful scene you saw, the dead body of Mustafa Ibisevic and
10 those of his sons.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm referring to
12 transcript page 11940, line 17.
13 Q. Please, sir, look at what it says here in this book. Look at page
14 51. That's the next page, the very beginning of the page.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's page 25 in English,
16 Your Honours.
17 Q. Look at the first sentence. "The most dramatic scene of this
18 horror was when Muharem Ibisevic who had been captured stood between his
19 sons Mujo and Mustafa, embraced them, and courageously together with his
20 son awaited for death. The inhabitants of Glogova buried the father and
21 his sons in the same grave without separating the father's hands from the
22 shoulders of his sons."
23 Did you testify here about Mustafa Ibisevic or Muharem Ibisevic?
24 A. Mustafa Ibisevic was the father of Muharem and Mujo.
25 Q. In that case, is it correct to say that Muhamed [as interpreted]
1 Ibisevic stood between his sons or was that a completely different person,
3 A. Mustafa was their father.
4 Q. So is what this book says correct about these people?
5 A. No.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to gain time I
7 referred to D742, the list of missing and killed in Glogova, where you can
8 see that Mustafa Ibisevic with his sons Muharem and Mujo was killed, and
9 what it says in this book does not correspond to that.
10 Q. Is what this book says correct, generally speaking?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And also specifically in connection with this, it says here that
13 you buried these people with arms around each other.
14 A. We did bury them in the same grave; there was only one grave for
15 all three of them. But we couldn't bury them in an embracing position; we
16 had to separate them otherwise the grave would have had to be wider.
17 Q. So what was the grave like?
18 A. Well, according to Muslim custom, there is a grave and we put them
20 Q. Thank you very much. So is what the book says about this true?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The Prosecutor, if you recall, asked you a number of questions
23 about your training in the anti-sabotage platoon. I refer to page 11956
24 of the transcript, lines 7 to 14. And you gave certain replies. When
25 asked about the anti-sabotage platoon when you described your experiences
1 there, were you referring to experiences in the JNA or to experiences in
2 the war?
3 A. I was referring to my experience from the JNA, the former army.
4 Q. Thank you. After that you were asked a number of questions that
5 had to do with reporting on what the men who went to observe the Serb
6 lines and positions transmitted. The Prosecutor used the expression "your
7 smaller groups reported," in the plural, "to Ejub Golic."
8 Can you explain to Their Honours whether this was simply a
9 conversation or whether it was a kind of formal reporting, for example,
10 the submission of written or oral reports?
11 A. Nothing was written. It was just a formal [as interpreted]
12 conversation. I know that we didn't have any paper. They would just come
13 to see him and they would tell him those things.
14 Q. Let's clarify this. It says in the transcript it was a formal
15 conversation, but you explained that nothing was written down. Did you
16 say "informal" or "formal"?
17 A. Well, the people who were reconnoitring would come and say what
18 had happened, what they had seen and heard.
19 Q. Were these people duty-bound to come and give this information or
20 could they have not turned up or said anything?
21 A. No, they were not duty-bound to do it.
22 Q. Please, while you were either in Velika Glogova, as you described,
23 or in Cizmici, were any written reports compiled about events and
24 activities in Glogova before the entrance of UNPROFOR?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did the men outside Golic's group, members of other groups, have
2 any information about what you in Glogova were doing in combat with the
4 A. Your question isn't quite clear to me. What men are you referring
6 Q. Please, you said that you did not write any written reports to
7 anyone outside your group or in your group. Am I correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Other men in other groups, whether they were in Bljeceva or
10 Potocari or Srebrenica, to the best of your knowledge, did they have any
11 information about what you were doing in your combat activities against
12 the Serbs?
13 A. No. Nobody sent any information about this.
14 Q. I'll ask you something else now. You were asked something about
15 the 24th of December, 1992. The Prosecutor asked you how 150 armed men
16 managed to defeat a strong Serb army including air force and artillery.
17 Is it correct that in the early morning of the 24th of December, 1992, you
18 only managed to break through the Serb line in a certain area and reach
19 your group in Velika Glogova?
20 A. Yes. We managed to drive away those men, and later on that day
21 there were planes and artillery.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would the usher please
23 show the witness a new document issued by the command of the Drina Corps.
24 The number is 04268489. This is a combat report of the Main Staff of the
25 Army of Republika Srpska, on the 25th of December, 1992, and I will
2 "In the afternoon of the 24th of December, 1992, the enemy in the
3 zone of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade carried out intensive
4 combat operations on the Kravica-Magasici axis and captured the village of
5 Glogova (formally a Muslim village). However, in the morning of the 25th
6 of December, 1992, due to strong resistance put up by our forces, these
7 operations became less intensive."
8 And then if you look where it says under 2, "our forces," it
9 says: "Forces of the Bratunac Brigade with a backing of the command corps
10 managed to partially consolidate their ranks and halt an enemy attack with
11 artillery and air support. During the afternoon hours of the 25th of
12 December, 1992, they succeeded in retrieving a lost part of the terrain
13 that the enemy had captured."
14 Witness, is this what you were trying to explain in your responses
15 to questions put by the Prosecutor, that you managed to break through the
16 line and hold it, but that later that day you were attacked by all kinds
17 of means by the Serbs? Does this reflect the situation on the ground?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this number would be Defence Exhibit D788?
20 THE REGISTRAR: D813, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: D813, so this document with ERN 04268489 to 490 with
22 the corresponding English translation is being marked Exhibit D813.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I will now ask you something about the interviews shown to you by
25 the Prosecutor, parts of the interview of Naser Oric. You saw an
1 interview --
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at present I don't
3 have -- I'm not sure whether it's P329 and the time 3.23.27 --
4 Q. But, Witness, let me remind you, that's the part of the interview
5 in which Naser Oric mentions Glogova. Do you remember the first clip that
6 you were shown today of the interview?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. From what you saw today, is it clear what date Naser Oric is
9 talking about?
10 A. No. No, it's not clear to me.
11 Q. Was it the 24th of December, 1992? The 1st of January? The 2nd
12 of January? The 3rd of January? The 4th of January, 1993?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my only objection is that at this
16 point we are still on re-direct and I suggest that non-leading questions
17 should be put and this is far beyond an open-ended question in accordance
18 with re-direct procedure.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was: From what you saw today is it
20 clear what date Naser Oric is talking about? This was the question.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, but then Madam Vidovic proceeded to put a
22 number of dates as an option for him --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but those are -- doesn't change anything. The
24 substance of the question remains the same.
25 MR. JONES: It's to illustrate a point.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's not waste time or lose time on this any
3 Please, Ms. Vidovic -- I would like Ms. Vidovic not to go beyond
4 the 6.30 limit. Otherwise, if that is not possible, I am not going to
5 stop you, then he has to return tomorrow. And we need to --
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Honour. Let me just
7 put two or three more questions.
8 Q. Witness, in connection with this did you ever hear, you
9 personally, did you ever have any information that Naser or anyone from
10 Potocari was at Lemesac?
11 A. I've already said I don't know anything about that.
12 Q. Did you have any information about any possible tasks of any
13 groups that may have been there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. The Prosecutor dwelt for a long time on the 24th of December,
16 1992, and put several questions to you in connection with the strategic
17 importance of Glogova on the 24th of December, 1992. You persistently
18 responded that you were trying to help people. For you, the people from
19 Glogova, was there a greater strategic interest than to save the lives of
20 the thousand or so people who were encircled in Velika Glogova?
21 A. It was in our interest to save the lives of people; it wasn't any
22 kind of strategic interest.
23 Q. When arriving at the decision to go and help them, did you bear in
24 mind the massacre of the 9th of May, 1992, that had taken place in
25 Glogova? Were you aware of it?
1 A. Yes, of course we were because what happened to those people was
2 the same thing that happened later on on the 9th of May.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. As regards the 24th of December, 1992, the
4 Prosecutor tried to show you a part of the war diary and quoted an
5 excerpt --
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can quote it without
7 showing it to the witness, because everybody heard it. It says
8 here: "The attack on Glogova was planned for the 24th of December, 1992."
9 Q. Did you ever hear anywhere who planned that attack?
10 A. No.
11 Q. From what was read out to you, was it clear to you who might have
12 planned the attack from that sentence read out to you?
13 A. Nobody planned the attack. The situation in Glogova was what it
14 was, and when Ejub told us -- and he said, What shall we do? Shall we go
15 there or let the people be killed? We decided to go.
16 Q. Did you need -- I'm speaking to the -- about the 24th of December,
17 not the 29th of December, 1992, when, as I said, you were totally
18 encircled. I'm talking about the 24th of December. Did you then need
19 weapons or did you need men?
20 A. We needed weapons.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will put one more
23 Q. Did Ejub Golic in the course of 1992 to the best of your knowledge
24 at any time have the position of deputy commander of the Bljeceva company?
25 A. No.
1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was he ever part of the Bljeceva
3 A. No.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
5 questions. Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and I certainly
7 appreciate your high sense of cooperation.
8 Judge Brydensholt.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: You mentioned the force of Nurif Hasanovic's
11 men. Did they stay in the area of Srebrenica later on? You only
12 mentioned that they participated in one attack. Did they stay in the area
13 or did they go back to Tuzla? Do you know anything about that?
14 A. Some of them, about 20 men, remained in Cizmici. The others went
15 with Nurif. He said at the time, at least, that he was headed for
16 Konjevic Polje, but I have no idea where he ended up. All he said at the
17 time was that he was headed for Konjevic Polje.
18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.
20 JUDGE ESER: Yes, I have some questions. First of all, when Ejub
21 Golic sent out some men to ask for help, have you been present when he did
22 send out these people?
23 A. No. No, I wasn't present. I arrived later. The situation was
24 difficult for us in those days. We were looking for a way out. So he
25 said to the people who were assembled there, he said that he would send
1 his men out to get help --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to answer the question and just the question.
3 The question was whether you were present or not. So, it just requires a
4 yes or no.
5 A. No. No, I wasn't.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise you are going to stay here.
7 JUDGE ESER: Were you -- when you mentioned that he sent out, that
8 what you have heard from others -- but you have not present when Ejub
9 Golic sent out certain people to certain villages?
10 A. I was not present when he sent these people out, but I did hear
11 later on that he had.
12 JUDGE ESER: And when he heard from him later on, did he tell you
13 to whom he would send his men? Would he just say, Send somebody to
14 Suceska or Magasici or Potocari and say, or would say, He sent them to
15 certain people in these villages?
16 A. He didn't mention any specific men. He said that he had sent men
17 to those areas, to those villages, to seek help.
18 JUDGE ESER: Now, when you have been in hospital in Srebrenica you
19 told us that a nurse mentioned to you this man was Naser Oric. Now, do
20 you remember?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ESER: Now, how often would you see -- this man who has been
23 either indicated to you as Naser Oric, how often did you see him in the
25 A. Just that once.
1 JUDGE ESER: [Previous translation continues] ... time now. And
2 you had also mentioned that other people would come to the hospital.
3 There have been quite a few people, you have told us, who came around.
5 A. I was talking about the wounded, that there were quite a number of
7 JUDGE ESER: You told -- in your testimony you said there were
8 people coming in and out at all the time.
9 So besides Naser Oric, there had also been people coming in and
10 out. Did they come in your room as well?
11 A. Those people who were with Naser at the time were in the room. I
12 was running a high fever and my wound was beginning to rot, but the people
13 that I was talking about originally were the wounded. Those were the
14 people I had in mind when I talked about the coming and going.
15 JUDGE ESER: So your testimony: There were people coming in and
16 out all the time and that you thought that Naser Oric was an ordinary
17 person like anyone else. So it appears as if Naser Oric was not different
18 from other people who came to the hospital. Is that a correct conclusion
19 which I draw?
20 A. I saw him then. There was some people with him, I don't know who
21 exactly, and the nurse told me, That's Naser Oric. I mean, my own
22 situation was difficult. Those people kept coming and going. I meant the
23 wounded. There were a great number of those coming in from all over the
24 place. Those were the people I meant. Those who were less seriously
25 wounded would just go, and those who were more seriously wounded would be
1 taken in.
2 JUDGE ESER: Now, you have been there about three weeks you told
3 us and with four other men. And how long have you been together with the
4 same people? A day or a week or so? Was there a change every day or have
5 you been together with certain people for some time?
6 A. I think the same people would stay for a five- or seven-day
7 period. That's what I think, but I was suffering from a very high fever
8 at the time and there was precious little medication. Therefore, I was
9 not entirely conscious during this time.
10 JUDGE ESER: But you have been in this very bad situation for the
11 whole three weeks?
12 A. Not throughout, but the best part, yes. My wound was beginning to
13 teem with maggots and there was no medication to be used. They could no
14 longer dress my wound, so I had to go as quickly as possible. There was
15 no food left.
16 JUDGE ESER: But even if you have been in a bad situation but over
17 such a long time and other people having been with you in the same room
18 for a couple of days, wouldn't there be an occasion to talk with them
19 about events which happened in the area?
20 A. I don't remember talking about to anyone about these things. I
21 really don't.
22 JUDGE ESER: So you would have been silent for all three weeks or
23 is that your --
24 A. Not that I kept silent. I was in so much pain that I was unable
25 to think about anything else. I wasn't thinking about asking questions
1 about other people.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Jones.
3 JUDGE ESER: Thank you, no further questions.
4 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, it's just that the witness
5 previously when asked about this had given the answer that he hadn't -- "I
6 had my own problems. I expected my arm to be cut off then my body
7 temperature was very high every day."
8 I don't know where Your Honour was leading to with that question,
9 but it seems that you failed to take into account that this was a man who
10 was on the -- with extremely serious health problems. I'm aware
11 Your Honour is --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can leave it at that.
13 JUDGE ESER: I really want to say something --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, you don't need to explain. I think, leave it
15 at that.
16 Judge Brydensholt has another final question. I am not going to
17 put any questions so that we can send the witness home.
18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you left the hospital in order to come
19 home, as you explained, in what way did you do that? You were seriously
20 hurt, I understand. Had you any way of transport, or how?
21 A. No. I had no means of transportation. One of my brothers came to
22 visit who was at Cizmici. My mother kept a cow at Cizmici, so that's
23 where I had went in order to be fed and try to improve my health
24 situation. So I left with my brother.
25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But how did you go there?
1 A. On foot. He helped me along. He held my arm. We took a long
2 time getting there, one whole day.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I will not ask you any questions,
4 even though I had intended to. This brings your testimony to an end, sir.
5 You will now be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher, but before
6 you leave the courtroom I wish to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal and
7 on behalf of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser and myself for having been
8 kind enough to come over and give testimony and also wait here over the
9 weekend because we had not finished with your testimony in time. I can
10 assure you that you will be given all the assistance you require to
11 facilitate your return back home at the earliest. And before you leave
12 again, once more, on behalf of everyone here I wish you -- I wish you a
13 safe journey back home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, very much,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
17 I wish to thank the -- all the staff for having bore with us.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow, Mr. Jones, I would like some information
20 about whether the tests that are going to be carried out by the gentlemen
21 you mentioned in the motion involves any chemical examination or chemical
22 treatment of the documents.
23 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm sure we can revert to you on that. I'll
24 allow my colleague to respond because she's more familiar with the
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but not now. Tomorrow. I'm not going to keep
2 anyone else --
3 MR. JONES: It was simply to say that I assume we can let you know
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And give as much details as possible, so that we can
6 possibly hand down the decision tomorrow.
7 MR. JONES: Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right? Thank you.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.30 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of
11 October, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.