1 Thursday, 13 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Would

6 you kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. This is Case

8 Number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

14 Yes, presentations.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

16 lead counsel for the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel,

17 Ms. Patricia Sellers and Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, as well as our case

18 manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. And also good morning to my learned

19 friends from the Defence.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

21 your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning, my learned friends from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and

25 together with John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us is our

1 legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff

2 Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

4 and your team.

5 Any preliminaries? Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to clarify, with

7 respect to P88 which we discussed yesterday, that was the form, I wish to

8 state clearly that we challenge the authenticity of these documents from

9 the outset. In connection with this, the OTP is in possession of the

10 statement of a witness who was not called to testify here but whose name

11 is listed on the form.

12 Secondly, in their exhibit list the OTP stated that they would use

13 515 [as interpreted] and they wish to speak of this without the presence

14 of the witness. P15 is the document containing the handwriting and the

15 alleged signature of Dzenan Dzenanovic. This witness has given a

16 statement and even the Dutch expert has stated that these signatures did

17 not correspond to the signatures of Dzenan Dzenanovic. I wish to state

18 this for the record.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have anything to state on that, Mr. Wubben?

20 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. There was also one document yesterday or

22 the day before that you wanted to make -- no, yesterday there was one

23 document that you said you wanted to contest the authenticity of and I

24 stopped you, I said not in the presence of the witness, leave it for

25 later. Perhaps you want to do that now?

1 MR. WUBBEN: No --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't remember the number or the exhibit number,

3 to be honest with you.

4 MR. WUBBEN: It was in handwritten form. I just --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know, but it was never really formalised

6 because I stopped you straight away and I said not in the presence of the

7 witness, leave it until later. And I would imagine it's the same document

8 that Ms. Vidovic is talking about. If you want to register your

9 opposition, your objection, to the admissibility of that statement, please

10 do so now.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I would like to come back to that issue

12 later on.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

14 Any further preliminaries? I see none.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can bring in the witness.

17 Registrar.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Dedic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Again we are going to proceed with the direct, with

23 the examination-in-chief, which should finish very soon. And then Madam

24 Vidovic will be followed by Mr. Wubben with his cross-examination. Just

25 to remind you of a few things: First, that you are testifying under oath

1 or pursuant to your solemn declaration.

2 Secondly, if there is a fault or any concern with regard to the

3 reception of the interpretation, please come forward straight away, do let

4 us know straight away, because we are not in a position to know whether

5 you or someone else points that to us. Yesterday there was one instance

6 when, had it not been for Madam Vidovic, we would not have known that you

7 were not following. That's number two.

8 Number three is if you really want to go back home after tomorrow,

9 or by the end of tomorrow, or finish your testimony by then, try to keep

10 your answers as brief as possible. I noticed that yesterday you were

11 giving longer answers than on the previous -- than on the previous day and

12 you were giving information that you were not actually being asked for.

13 So please try to restrain yourself and restrict your answers to what is

14 being asked from you.

15 Ms. Vidovic.

16 WITNESS: EJUB DEDIC [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dedic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Yesterday we left off when discussing the issue of the existence

22 of the military police and the security organ in Srebrenica during the

23 years 1994 and 1995.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

25 show the witness document D280.

1 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the 28th Division,

2 security department, dated the 18th of April, 1995, and it is addressed to

3 the security department of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla. It is an overview of

4 the security situation, and I will quote to you a part of the document.

5 This is in the middle of the first page, and it reads as follows: "The

6 process of reorganisation has not yet been completed. The security

7 section had not been brought up to manpower level. The military police

8 company and other organs of the 28th Division have not been fully manned,

9 which, if one takes into account that there is no military court or

10 military prosecutor's office in these parts, makes work much more

11 difficult. When one adds to this the fact that many of the officers are

12 not professional and have been appointed to inappropriate posts, all this

13 means that the functioning of the command and control system has been

14 disabled."

15 This document speaks of the process of the reorganisation of the

16 Operations Group of Srebrenica into the 28th Division. Please, with

17 respect to what was actually happening on the ground in Srebrenica and

18 what you called your brigade, the reorganisation referred to here, that is

19 from the Operations Group into the 28th Division, did it bring about any

20 changes on the ground?

21 A. No. It only brought a change of name. Instead of the 8th

22 Operations Group, it was called the 28th Division.

23 Q. But in essence, did the level of organisation remain the same?

24 A. Absolutely nothing changed in the organisation.

25 Q. Does this document reflect the actual situation on the ground,

1 that the security section was not fully manned, the military police

2 company or the other organs of the 28th Division were not fully manned?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you agree, according to what you know and what it says here in

5 this document, that most of the officers were not properly trained?

6 A. Yes, I fully agree.

7 Q. You said yesterday that the acronym RiK stands for command and

8 control. Please, is it correct what it says here in this document, that

9 the command and control system was unable to function under these

10 conditions?

11 A. Yes, that's completely correct.

12 Q. For example, the unit that you referred to as a brigade, did it

13 have an organ or personnel trained to collect the information necessary

14 for the prosecution of criminal offences and hand them over to the brigade

15 commander?

16 A. On the list of military-able men that we were compiling - I'm

17 referring to the 284th Brigade - there was one person -- there was --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not a single person.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- able to do this job properly.

20 There was one man who was not properly trained.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you tell us the name of that person and exactly what he was by

23 profession?

24 A. It was -- his name was Fadil Dedic and he was schooled in mining.

25 This had nothing to do with the kind of work you're talking about. I'm

1 sure that to this very day he doesn't know what a criminal investigation

2 entails.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, in your testimony you describe the many

4 crimes and murders that you heard had occurred against Muslims or that you

5 saw or maybe you just heard about from others. Did you have any knowledge

6 that investigations were carried out within the military structures or any

7 organs in Srebrenica with respect to crimes against Muslims, for example?

8 A. No. I never heard that there was any kind of investigation of

9 crimes committed against Muslims in this period.

10 Q. While you were in Srebrenica, were you an eyewitness to

11 large-scale massacres of the Muslim population there?

12 A. Yes. There was an event in April 1994 - I don't remember the

13 exact date - in front of the school where between 60 and 70 civilians were

14 either killed or seriously wounded.

15 Q. Very well. Tell me, the authorities in Srebrenica, whether

16 military or civilian, to the best of your knowledge - and I'm referring

17 especially to the military authorities - did they conduct any kind of

18 investigation about this incident or did they investigate where the

19 shell came from, for example?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Why?

22 A. There was no investigation because there were no conditions to

23 carry out an investigation. We didn't have trained personnel or any other

24 conditions to conduct this type of investigation.

25 Q. Please, in what you called a brigade, and you were the chief of

1 that brigade, did you receive any information about any crime against

2 Serbs or their property?

3 A. No. I never received any information of that kind.

4 Q. My colleague has drown my attention to a part of the transcript

5 when we were talking about Fadil Dedic. Can you clarify what Fadil

6 Dedic's position was supposed to have been in the so-called 284th Brigade.

7 What was he supposed to be doing there?

8 A. He was supposed to be doing security work. What exactly this is

9 and what his job entailed, I'm not quite sure.

10 Q. Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify this point.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic. Before you --

14 however, I pass the witness on to Mr. Wubben for cross-examination,

15 reading through the summary that you handed to us about this particular

16 witness, there is one area, one paragraph, which describes him as the

17 Chief of Staff of the 243rd Municipal Brigade. Is that a mistake or --

18 because it has not occurred. I mean, if you look at -- I'm sorry I'm

19 bringing this up now, but I just wanted to make sure whether we ought to

20 give it any importance or whether we ought to ignore it completely. In

21 the summary, the Defence witness summary, you said, as the Chief of Staff

22 of the 243rd Municipal Brigade, he will testify about the methodology, et

23 cetera. Is that a mistake?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's what I wanted to know.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If it wasn't, I was going to either ask you to

3 address it or then we would have addressed it ourselves.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for drawing

5 my attention to this. This brigade did not exist. Probably it must be a

6 typing error, our error that is, an error made by us. What is correct is

7 what the witness said today and it's quite clear in the record.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem in the least, Madam. I -- it's

9 just for a matter of clarification.

10 Yes. So, Mr. Wubben, you can now start crossing the --

11 cross-examining the witness. Now, for your information, the Prosecution

12 took exactly five hours and 40 minutes. That is -- the Defence, sorry,

13 thank you. The Defence took exactly five hours and 40 minutes' time to

14 examine in chief. So they were exactly well within the time limits. So

15 you need to be within the time limit, too, which basically means you need

16 to finish by tomorrow. Right. Thanks.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Wubben:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Jan Wubben -- my name is Jan

19 Wubben, as already mentioned by the Presiding Judge yesterday. I have

20 questions for you this morning. I would like to invite you to be limited

21 in your answers. I prefer a "yes" or "no" or an "I don't know." When I

22 need a more extensive answer, I will indicate it to you by an open

23 question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Adding -- adding to that. If, however, on any

25 question after you are required to say -- answer yes or no, you think it's

1 the case of explaining further, please address us straight away, the three

2 Judges, and tell us so much and we will decide whether to give you

3 permission to explain further or not, all right? Is that clear?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 Mr. Wubben, you can -- you may start.

7 MR. WUBBEN:

8 Q. Mr. Dedic, yesterday you explained to the Trial Chamber that you

9 were a member of the Skugrici group. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That group, that unit, started from the beginning of war under the

12 command of Mirsad Sulejmanovic. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. His nickname was Skejo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you also stated that you had no particular position in this

17 group, except for the fact that you were a member.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. WUBBEN: May I ask the usher now to show the witness a

20 document, ERN 0837907 [sic] up to 018307910 [sic]. The English version is

21 on Sanction, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is, I take it, a new document.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben.

25 MR. WUBBEN:

1 Q. Witness, I refer to this document. It is a request for joining

2 the active military service of the Army of the Republic of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and promotion to rank. Do you have the B/C/S version

4 in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean, my attention is being drawn, although

7 I knew it already, that although you said it's on Sanction, it's not an

8 Sanction.

9 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise. Please bear me a moment.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not your fault, Mr. Wubben.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, it is indeed a technical problem. We

12 try to solve it by contacting the technicians, but in the meanwhile we can

13 put it on the Sanction -- on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 Usher, please, if you could assist with that. Thank you, Usher,

16 and thank you, Mr. Wubben.

17 MR. WUBBEN:

18 Q. Mr. Dedic, will you please take a look at the document, and let's

19 first start not with the first page but the page 01837909. It is the

20 third page -- it's the third page in English. Do you recognise the -- do

21 you recognise your name down under that form?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that -- has this been filled in by you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you sign for this form?

1 A. Yes, on the same page. In the right-hand corner you can see my

2 signature.

3 Q. Let's move to the first page of this document. There it is, your

4 name, your last name, Dedic, and father's name Ramiz, your first name,

5 Ejub, and subsequently it has been filled in up to question or paragraph

6 39 on page 3. There, and I quote, it is stated: "Engagement on the

7 preparation and organisation of armed conflicts before the war."

8 Can you read it?

9 A. We're talking about number 39, aren't we?

10 Q. Yes. And I quoted it. And my question is: Can you read it, what

11 I quoted?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you fill in, and I quote: "Actively involved in collecting

14 resources for purchasing of weapons and ammunition and leading activities

15 not to hand over the weapons by any price"?

16 A. Please, can you repeat your question in relation to this. What

17 are you asking me about what is written under number 39?

18 Q. My first question was: Did you fill in the -- that information

19 that I just quoted?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What do you mean by "actively involved in collecting resources for

22 purchasing of weapons and ammunition"?

23 A. Yes. In view of the fact that in my statement that I gave

24 yesterday, we -- I mentioned that we bought part of our weaponry in order

25 to be able to resist enemy attacks, I participated in that, in the

1 collection of some resources. And therefore, we managed to buy some

2 weapons in that period before the war itself broke out, that is to say in

3 the situation when we had an imminent threat of war.

4 Q. Does that mean that you yourself was involved in buying weapons

5 and ammunition?

6 A. No. I personally was not involved in purchasing weapons. I said

7 that I helped out in collecting money to buy it. Sabo Dedic, a relative

8 of mine, bought a rifle from the Roma in Nova Kasaba, for instance.

9 Q. Yes. How many weapons were bought that way?

10 A. I remember only that one rifle, and I took part in buying that one

11 rifle only. I don't know exactly, but I think about 100 pieces of

12 ammunition for it, too.

13 Q. So when it comes to the preparation and organisation of armed

14 conflict before the war, you stated that you were actively involved in

15 collecting resources for purchasing of weapon as being helping out in

16 buying one weapon?

17 A. Yes. Active work in collecting resources has to be viewed from

18 the position of the imminent danger. And I went around, talked to people,

19 and said that it was necessary to buy as many weapons as possible.

20 Q. But the outcome of that energy you put in, into actively being

21 involved, that ended up in buying one weapon?

22 A. Yes. I personally, together with him, Mr. Sabo Dedic, went out

23 and we bought a rifle, the one that I mentioned, and about a hundred or a

24 couple of hundred pieces of ammunition.

25 Q. So why did you then stated that there were weapons purchased and

1 not one weapon?

2 A. Yes. I mentioned the purchase of weaponry in the broader area,

3 that is to say the enclave of Cerska. I mentioned yesterday that weapons

4 were bought from a certain Serb called Gacic. So that was not the only

5 rifle that was bought in the entire area.

6 Q. Were these weapons meant for the unit of Skugrici?

7 A. Only this rifle that was bought in Nova Kasaba, yes. The other

8 rifles were in the hands of the local groups, and those were the ones

9 bought from Mr. Gacic.

10 Q. Yesterday you stated there were about -- and then I referred to

11 the group of Mirsad Sulejmanovic, that they had around May a total of 30

12 weapons. Is that all right?

13 A. Yes, I think that that is correct, around 30 weapons in the group

14 of Mirsad Sulejmanovic, Skejo, the beginning of the war, that is to say

15 the beginning of spring and summer 1992.

16 Q. Let's move to issue 40, or paragraph 40. A question: The date of

17 joining the RBiH armed forces. You joined the forces the 5th of April,

18 1992?

19 A. The correct date of my joining the armed groups is the 6th of

20 April, 1992. Now, how come it says the 5th? I don't know, I made a

21 mistake perhaps, but it was the 6th of April, 1992.

22 Q. That one -- that's one day that might be -- that might be a

23 mistake, but what is definitely clear that you joined the Crisis Staff of

24 Cerska, the Vlasenica municipality. Can you clarify that?

25 A. Yes. The Crisis Staff in Cerska was actually a group of people

1 that often met and tried to explain how difficult the times were. And

2 they were trying to propose certain solutions in order to avoid a war in

3 the area. So it was not any kind of staff from the point of view of

4 military organisation; this was a group of a few persons who met from time

5 to time, debated, discussed the situation that awaited us in that period.

6 Q. So your testimony is that by the 6th of April, 1992, you joined

7 the RBiH armed forces by participated in the Crisis Staff?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. Ms. Vidovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not recall having

11 heard that he said the armed forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 He's talking about the Crisis Staff in Cerska.

13 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, I object to that remark.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think there are two things that need to be

15 clarified. Number one is that under number 40, at least in the English

16 version, because I can't confirm by reading the Serbo-Croat one

17 completely. What I have here is: "Date of joining the armed forces of

18 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and then in brackets, it says:

19 "Name the body you applied to." To me it doesn't mean -- mention the

20 body or the division or whatever in which you were actively engaged; it

21 just indicates or requires the indication of the -- of the body the

22 application was made to. That's how I understand it to be, at least

23 reading the English version. If the Bosnian -- if the original version

24 says anything different, please clear that straight away because we will

25 need to know. That's number one.

1 And secondly, there seems to be a misunderstanding between the two

2 parties here. I did -- the question that has been put repeatedly is in

3 relation to him accepting the correctness of the entry here, namely the

4 5th, now we are told it's the 6th, of April, 1992, as being the date which

5 he joined the armed forces of RBH. So that -- if you think that is not

6 clear according to you, we can go through this transcript, see whether

7 it's clear or not. And if it's the case of proceeding further with

8 further questions, we will of course have further questions. Or if you're

9 not satisfied, you can deal with that during the re-examination.

10 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, lest there be any

12 greater misunderstanding, the question in number 40 is: "Date of joining

13 the RBiH armed forces," but the witness said he joined the Crisis Staff of

14 Cerska, which is not a military organ. And Mr. Wubben proceeds as if the

15 witness accepted that he joined the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Witness, am I right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I protest -- I object against this

19 proceeding so far because Defence counsel, my learned friend, surely

20 doesn't wish to guide the witness in any effect, I trust.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

22 MR. WUBBEN: The outcome will be that the witness is guided while

23 his testimony is very clear and the answer was also very clear.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is you may have misled him yourself,

25 actually, Mr. Wubben, because if you look at line 15 on page 14. I'll

1 give you time to track that.

2 After that, the witness had corrected the date from the 5th of

3 April to the 6th of April, 1992. Then you put the following question to

4 him: "That one, that's one day that might be a mistake. But what is

5 definitely clear is that you joined the Crisis Staff of Cerska, the

6 Vlasenica municipality. Can you clarify that?"

7 And then he answered: "Yes."

8 So I take it that he did join the Crisis Staff of Vlasenica, of

9 Cerska. And he continues: "The Crisis Staff in Cerska was actually a

10 group of people that often met and tried to explain how difficult the

11 times were and they were trying to propose certain solutions in order to

12 avoid a war in the area. So it was not any kind of staff from the point

13 of view of military organisation; this was a group of a few persons who

14 met from time to time, debated, discussed the discussion that awaited us

15 in that period."

16 And then you proceeded with the question: "So your testimony is

17 that by the 6th of April, 1992, you joined the RBiH armed forces by

18 participating in the Crisis Staff."

19 And then there was the -- I said -- I notice -- I recognised

20 Ms. Vidovic standing up. But the witness in the meantime, before

21 Ms. Vidovic spoke, said "Yes."

22 So I think that the clarification that is in order, appropriate,

23 now is the following: You are submitting to the witness, Mr. Wubben, that

24 on the 6th of April of 1992, by joining the Cerska Crisis Staff was

25 actually joining the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina, as per self declaration contained in paragraph 40. The

2 witness, however, has explained that the Crisis Staff he mentioned was not

3 - and this is what he says on line 21 on page 14 - was not any kind of

4 staff from the point of view of military organisations.

5 So the explanation that we require is the following: If according

6 to you, Mr. Dedic, the Crisis Staff of Cerska at the time you filed the

7 application to join was not the kind of military staff from a point of

8 view of military organisation, how can you explain that by filing an

9 application with the Crisis Staff or by joining the Crisis Staff in Cerska

10 you were actually joining the armed forces of the RBiH?

11 Yes, Mr. Jones, if it helps to clarify. Otherwise, no comments

12 until he answers.

13 MR. JONES: No. No, Your Honour. It's simply -- I do think this

14 point has to be made: In your summary just now Your Honour said that the

15 witness had replied "Yes," in the meantime, to the question. I heard that

16 he was saying something else as well. He had added some additional words

17 which weren't interpreted. So in fairness, it wasn't simply "Yes," and we

18 can check that, if necessary.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's -- I think that's extremely important,

20 Mr. Jones, because when that happens obviously we are not in a position to

21 do anything. So I suggest, basing myself from experience, to go through

22 it as follows:

23 Mr. Wubben, you please repeat to the witness the same question

24 that you put to him earlier on, which is the following: "So your

25 testimony --" Mr. Dedic, this is the question that you are going to answer

1 now:

2 "So your testimony is, Mr. Dedic, that by the 6th of April, 1992,

3 you joined the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina armed forces by

4 participating in the Cerska Crisis Staff."

5 Do you agree with that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did take part in the work of

7 the Crisis Staff from the 6th of April, 1992.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you accept that by doing that you were -- you

9 had automatically from that very same moment you started doing work --

10 working with the Cerska Crisis Staff, that you had for all intents and

11 purposes joined the RBiH armed forces? Because this is what this document

12 at least alleges that you indicated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It is stated clearly here the

14 date when I was made available, that is to say that on that date I did not

15 become -- from that moment I was not engaged, as it says in the document,

16 in the armed forces of the RBiH. I repeat, the Crisis Staff was not a

17 military institution, a military organisation; it was a group of people

18 that met from time to time in order to try to resolve the situation and in

19 order to avoid the war.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Dedic.

21 Mr. Wubben, I intervened a little bit to try and make it easier

22 for everybody to understand, but I think we have arrived at a point now

23 where we should not involve ourselves any further and I hand him back to

24 you.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate it.

1 Q. Let's move to question number 41. There the question is: "The

2 date of engagement in the RBiH army and the name of the units, the duty

3 and date of engagement."

4 Is it correct that you filled in as a date the 15th of April,

5 1992, 3rd Company of the 1st Cerani - if I pronounce it well -

6 Detachment?

7 A. Do you just want me to answer that part of the question?

8 Q. Yes or no, as I invited you in the beginning of the cross.

9 A. I filled out this entry, number 41, the 15th of April, 1992, the

10 3rd Company of the 1st Cer Detachment. And then further on: Deputy

11 commander of a company, chief of -- well, what is this? Probably

12 Secretariat of People's Defence. I filled this entry out differently and

13 the person who gave me the questionnaire threw it away. What I wrote was

14 that I was engaged in the group of Mr. Sulejmanovic from the 15th of

15 April, 1992, in Skugrici, and that sometimes when he was absent I stood in

16 for him and that I listed military-able men in the area. However, the

17 person who gave me the questionnaire to fill out threw that away and he

18 guided me to write down what is written here. I told you yesterday that

19 in the area of Cerska and in the area of Skugrici, there weren't any

20 companies, there weren't any detachments. I did not have any duty in the

21 group of Mr. Sulejmanovic or did I ever work in the secretariat that is

22 mentioned here, except that I helped in keeping records of men who were in

23 the area.

24 Q. Why did he throw it away?

25 A. He told me that something like that could not be there, because on

1 the list we had to have names of units from a military point of view, not

2 what I had written out for him the first time.

3 Q. So why did you -- and why did you abide by it?

4 A. Because he didn't want to accept the text that I had originally

5 written.

6 Q. And where did you originally written it?

7 A. I filled this out in Tuzla. I think it was at Dom Armije, the

8 army hall in Tuzla.

9 Q. When you -- when you signed for this -- no. I withdraw that

10 question.

11 But you indeed signed for this form, didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So in your testimony, it would be enough to sign for company

14 deputy commander or for the 1st Cerani Detachment, isn't it?

15 A. No. I was never deputy commander of a platoon. I've never

16 actually heard of the existence of platoon commanders.

17 Q. But how come that person could advise you to full it in like this?

18 How did he knew of the existence of such a company, if so?

19 A. Yesterday, while giving my explanations here, as far as I can

20 remember I said that over there in Cerska, either at Tuzla or other

21 places, individuals wrote down the names of armed groups the way they

22 thought they should be called. So they mentioned the Territorial Defence,

23 they mentioned detachments, they mentioned other units. So probably they

24 had a reason to write it this way because somebody had already been

25 calling those units that. I repeat once again: I cannot say that these

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13 English transcripts.

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1 were units from a military point of view, that -- the way it's stated

2 here. I'm not denying the fact that I was a member of armed groups, but

3 not under the names mentioned here.

4 Q. And you don't deny that from the 15th of April, 1992, you indeed

5 engaged in the RBiH army?

6 A. Yes. In that period I was engaged in these groups, and my

7 engagement continued from then on.

8 Q. And you also confirm now in your clarification that you signed for

9 a filling-in of the form that is partly incorrect.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's go into private session for a

11 moment, please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Wubben. I'm sorry to

10 have interrupted you, but as you can imagine, this was -- my intervention

11 was important.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. I will proceed by asking you -- it might be -- it might seem a

14 repetition but it is good for clarification, that you can confirm to the

15 Trial Chamber that you indeed engaged in the RBiH army from the 15th of

16 April, 1992. Can you confirm?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So it means that, according to issue number 44, you completed in

19 1992 -- no --

20 MR. WUBBEN: I will rephrase that, Your Honour.

21 Q. In issue 44, the total pension of years of service are addressed

22 and it was filled in as completed 12 years for the calculation of your

23 pension. Is that correct?

24 A. This service in 44 covers the years of service I acquired working

25 in a primary school before the war.

1 Q. Thank you. And your pension is based on that?

2 A. Yes, on that and also my years of service in the professional

3 military.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- sorry again to interrupt, but I think you

5 have to look at the whole document. It seems it's divided into various --

6 there's up to January of 1979 where for a period of time he was employed

7 in the JNA.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Mm-hmm.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: 44 refers to a different period of time and to a

10 different category of people, not people who are members of the former or

11 were members of the former JNA, but people who were working in some other

12 kind of activity not being the JNA.

13 So what we have is here on the 26th of February, 1992, he is

14 claiming to have acquired by then 12 years' service for pension purposes

15 as an employ of the elementary school mentioned. Prior to that would

16 apply the pension period acquired under the JNA, which is -- doesn't seem

17 to be particular, but anyway.

18 So don't mix 44 with what you have under 36 and 38.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

21 MR. WUBBEN:

22 Q. In issue 42, the question -- you confirmed that your actual

23 position at the moment for signing is Chief of Staff of the 284th Light --

24 284th Light East Bosnian Brigade. Is that correct?

25 A. [No interpretation].

1 Q. And as you referred to yesterday, the officer's training, the

2 compulsory officer's training, you achieved the rank of captain. Is that

3 also correct?

4 A. No, that's not correct. I was reserve captain. I acquired this

5 rank in the JNA. At the beginning of 1992, before the war, I was a

6 reserve captain.

7 Q. That's what I -- that's what I meant. Thank you.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I notice that page 24, line 17, there

9 had been no interpretation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but he did answer -- I heard him answer "Yes,"

11 so that goes into the record.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you finished with this document? Oh, I'm sorry.

14 MR. WUBBEN: No, let's move to the detachment. The detachment I

15 will refer to is -- bears ERN number 01837907 of the English, and so it

16 should be 7910 as the last page of it, and the B/C/S version is 01837910.

17 It is an opinion and proposal of the commander of the 8th Operation Group.

18 Q. Who was at the time the commander of the 8th Operation Group,

19 Witness?

20 A. At that time -- just a moment. Let me look at the date.

21 A. Yes, yes. The 22nd is this 19 -- I don't know what date this

22 refers to. Could you please repeat what period of time you're referring

23 to when you ask me who the commander of the 8th Operations Group was.

24 Q. The application is dated the 20th of February, 1994.

25 A. Yes. At that time on paper, as I pointed out yesterday, the

1 commander of the 8th Operations Group of Srebrenica was Mr. Oric.

2 Q. And do you notice the name of Mr. Oric as commander of the 8th

3 Operation Group on this form?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Do you know his signature?

6 A. I couldn't assert with full confidence that this was his

7 signature.

8 Q. This -- this form, this document, is signed by the -- by the

9 commander of the 18th Operations Group, Srebrenica. And you refer to him,

10 if you bear me a moment -- you said, and I quote it: "At that time he was

11 commander on paper."

12 What do you mean by that, he was a commander on paper?

13 A. As I said yesterday, and I wish to repeat it today, all the

14 so-called brigades within the 8th Operations Group were actually a list of

15 military-able men on the territory of Srebrenica proper.

16 Q. But does that mean that Mr. Oric was only signing papers because

17 on paper he was a commander and didn't do anything else as being a

18 commander?

19 A. No activities of the person who was a commander of my brigade on

20 paper do I remember, let alone any activities by Mr. Oric.

21 Q. But are you aware of the fact that Mr. Naser Oric did do more than

22 only signing papers? Did he play an active role at the time that you were

23 in Srebrenica as a commander? What is your opinion about that?

24 A. I'll repeat my clear opinion to you: All the military activities

25 in Srebrenica, apart from those of the international forces, were

1 specifically banned. Srebrenica, according to my deep conviction, was an

2 area without weapons, without armed men, without any kind of military

3 activity by Muslims.

4 Q. Does that mean that you are not aware that Mr. Naser Oric carried

5 out any duties of a commander?

6 MR. JONES: What period are we talking about? He's obviously

7 talking about demilitarisation.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. I mean, I was actually looking at the

9 Defence because I was expecting this. You need to be specific as to the

10 date, Mr. Wubben.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

12 Q. In 1994.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: More or less at the time that he has signed this

14 document, according to what the Prosecution is alleging. Yes, Mr. Dedic,

15 do you understand the question?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So you -- could you give us an answer then, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question refers to the period of

19 demilitarisation, 1994, in Srebrenica. In that period, I repeat again,

20 there were no military activities by Muslims in this period.

21 MR. WUBBEN:

22 Q. So in your testimony, no military activities by the Muslim forces,

23 and Naser Oric was a commander on paper only.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, let me go into this document signed by the commander of the

1 8th Operation Group, Naser Oric. And I quote: "Dedic (Ramiz) Ejub put

2 himself at the disposal of the RBiH armed forces as a reserve captain from

3 the 15th of April, 1992, and was engaged at the same time."

4 Is that correct?

5 MR. JONES: Is he asking if it's correct that it says that?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine that the -- what do you --

7 MR. WUBBEN:

8 Q. Would you agree with that?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, will you tell me where this

11 text is? I'd like to take a look at it.

12 MR. WUBBEN:

13 Q. It is the first --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, please, could you help the witness.

15 Make sure he's got in front of him the fourth page of the document ending

16 with ERN 7910. Does he? All right. So that's the one. It's the first

17 sentence, Mr. Dedic, where you have your name Dedic (Ramiz) Ejub "kao

18 rezervni kapetan ..." That's the first sentence.

19 And your question, Mr. Wubben, so that I don't put it myself.

20 MR. WUBBEN:

21 Q. Do you agree that that is correct?

22 A. Yes. This is partly correct. Put himself at the disposal of, on

23 the 15th of April, but I don't know that it was called the RBiH armed

24 forces. It was at the disposal of the groups active in the areas of

25 Skugrici and Cerska. We had no communication with any other forces in the

1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for the date, that's correct, but

2 at the disposal of the groups being formed in the area.

3 Q. You were, in the opinion of this document, engaged in purchasing

4 and handling of armaments and ammunition. You were organising people in

5 the region of Skugrici, Vlasenica, and you distinguish yourself as an

6 organiser of village guard. Is it correct?

7 A. Yes. I said earlier that I participated in purchasing one rifle

8 bought by a relative of mine - I helped him - and ammunition. I never

9 dealt in trading in weapons. As for participating in -- engaging people,

10 yes, but organising people in Vlasenica, no. But only insofar as

11 Skugrici, a part of Vlasenica municipality. Distinguished himself as an

12 organiser of village guards. The village guards were the first groups

13 who, especially by night, patrolled around the villages and monitored the

14 situation. So this part of the text is correct, but purchasing and

15 handling of armament and ammunition, no, I never dealt with that. The

16 re-sale of weapons, that is. But I was never active in Vlasenica.

17 Vlasenica was cut off. I couldn't go there. This is correct only insofar

18 as Skugrici is part of Vlasenica municipality.

19 Q. Now -- and I go back, that you made some clarification and nuances

20 in this text. But anyhow, what states in the document that you were

21 engaged in the RBiH armed forces from the 15th of April, 1992. Is that

22 correct?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Just let him answer. I know what you're coming up

24 with.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date of engagement in armed

1 forces, the 15th of April, that's correct.

2 MR. WUBBEN:

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was whether he confirms that the

7 document states that he was engaged in the RBiH armed forces from the 15th

8 of April. Otherwise, he has explained his position on this.

9 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, his reply was

11 misinterpreted. He keeps saying that this was engagement in armed groups,

12 whereas here it's -- the interpretation is "armed forces."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, that's why I said what the question was

14 and what the answer was. The question was not what he got engaged in, but

15 what -- he was asked whether it's correct that the statement by --

16 allegedly by Mr. Oric states that he was engaged on the 15th of April in

17 the armed forces of Republic -- it's not whether he was engaged, whether

18 the statement states so much. And of course he has answered yes, and

19 that's a correct answer, because that's what the statement --

20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

21 MR. JONES: The reason I interrupt, Your Honour, was because

22 earlier, and it didn't appear in the transcript, but Mr. Wubben said

23 anyhow what states in the document correct. That hasn't come out and in

24 the end, probably just as well, but it's suggested that there is a double

25 question, does the document correctly state --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't have it on the transcript.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, that's why I stood up.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I knew what you were coming up with, I could

4 anticipate, of course. But I stopped you because what I have in the

5 transcript is what counts.

6 MR. JONES: Yes. Also in terms of not misleading the witness,

7 let's not overlook the fact that this is a request for joining the active

8 military service of the army of ABiH. I'm sure it's a matter which Your

9 Honours would have drawn attention to

10 MR. WUBBEN: I object, Your Honours.

11 MR. JONES: Your Honours, it's the title of the document, the

12 title of the document --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones is ultimately correct. Basically, this is

14 a new phase in the life of the military career, if you can call it so, of

15 Mr. Dedic.

16 MR. WUBBEN: And because of a new phase in his life, in the

17 career, I assume that Mr. Dedic filled in the form correctly and to the

18 actual state and his history --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is now finished. Next question.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Next question.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to challenge the honesty of the witness

22 in as far as filling this document is concerned, you have every right to

23 do so and you will be given all the opportunity to do so, with the caveats

24 that I mentioned earlier on.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, that's something for a later phase, but

1 what I noticed is that there is a misinterpretation of my -- of at least

2 what I meant with the last question. So I will repeat it again but I will

3 rephrase it.

4 Q. Is -- regarding your comment on the document signed by the

5 commander of the 8th Operation Group, the opinion and proposal of the

6 commander, it is stated there that you put yourself at the disposal of the

7 RBiH armed forces from the 15th of April, 1992. Is that true -- is that

8 true, as the document says, that you were engaged in the RBiH army from

9 the 15th of April, 1992?

10 A. Let me repeat once again that the date is correct, but I can never

11 agree that these were the RBiH armed forces. I was exclusively engaged in

12 this period in the local groups gathered around the local leaders. The

13 name people applied to this later on, that's something different. I can't

14 change people's opinion about the names of those groups.

15 Q. Thank you. I will move to the next document.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But we need to give it a number.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Please assign an exhibit number.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to give this document a number, an exhibit

20 number.

21 Can you give me the next number, please. P --

22 THE REGISTRAR: P581, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 So this document, which consists of four pages in B/C/S and four

25 pages in the corresponding translation into English, ERN 01837907 through

1 01837910, both numbers included, is being tendered and received and marked

2 as Prosecution Exhibit P581. Yes.

3 MR. WUBBEN: May I ask the usher to show the witness document ERN

4 DA17-7864. This is a type proposal for the promotion of the rank of

5 major. And I quote that it's referring to the last name, father's name,

6 and first name, to Dedic (Ramiz) Ejub.

7 Q. Is it correct, if you notice, the personal background, that it

8 refers to you, this document?

9 A. Dedic (Ramiz) Ejub, yes. Born on the 1st of March, 1957, yes.

10 Place and municipality of birth: Skugrici, Vlasenica, yes. Place of

11 residence, street and number. This refers to 1995, so Srebrenica, yes.

12 Nationality, Bosnian Muslim, yes.

13 Q. Thank you. And now question number 10: Duties performed so far

14 in the RBiH: Deputy commander, deputy -- company commander, commander,

15 company chief of the Defence Secretary in the surrounding detachment. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. These, in my view, are practically the same questions. I wish to

18 say that I was in the group, and occasionally, when Mr. Sulejmanovic was

19 absent, he would ask me to stand in for him. But the position of deputy

20 company commander never existed as such because it was not a proper

21 company in the military sense. I wish to emphasise this. The company

22 commander, if I see well, and as far as I know as a soldier, the

23 expression used in B/C/S for company commander is "komandir," not

24 "komandant." And as for Chief of Staff, I wish to say that in Cerska

25 there were very few literal -- people who were literate. Most of the

1 literate people had left, so it was, unfortunately, up to me to write

2 things down. So somebody wrote that this was the Secretariat of Defence,

3 but there was actually never any kind of Defence Secretariat in Cerska,

4 either before the war or during the war. So this information under 10 is

5 not correct.

6 Q. Under 11, is it true, you were the brigade Chief of Staff 1995?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In January.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As we said, several times on

9 paper, I was Chief of Staff. I myself participated in drawing up this

10 document. I was Chief of Staff of the 274th East Bosnia Light Brigade.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction; 284th.

12 MR. WUBBEN:

13 Q. Is it also correct that under 15 and as later on in the document

14 down under, you particularly distinguish yourself in the advancement of

15 the organisation and defence power of the republic's armed forces?

16 A. Please, can I just read this briefly, what it says here.

17 Q. Go ahead.

18 A. "Proposed for promotion because he was in the armed forces of the

19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the beginning of the war where he

20 conscientiously performed all his duties. He particularly distinguished

21 himself in the advancement of the organisation and defence power of the

22 republic's armed forces. In the military unit he was employed on

23 improving interpersonal relations and increasing of combat morale as an

24 exemplary -" what does it say here - this is not the Bosnian language,

25 exemplary. "He enjoys selfless loyalty --" the selfless trust, that is,

1 "of soldiers and officers alike."

2 This is the first time that I have seen I was so good. Had I been

3 such a good soldier, I would probably have been the commander of a large

4 unit. I would have been a brigadier and the commander of a division

5 perhaps.

6 Q. May I ask you -- the question was in fact: Did you advance -- did

7 you contribute to the advancement of the organisation and the defence

8 power of the republic's armed forces? Is that true?

9 A. I participated in the armed groups, and I can't really say how

10 much I was able to help.

11 Q. And were you indeed promoted to the rank of major?

12 A. I was promoted to the rank of major --

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. -- in 19 -- it was later on, after this period, yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, may I have an exhibit number.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, which consists of two pages in

18 B/C/S and another two pages in English with ERN DA17-7864, is being

19 tendered by the Prosecution, received, and marked as Prosecution Exhibit

20 P582.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, it's time for a time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 30-minute break, starting from now.

23 Thank you.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

1 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I understand you want to raise a matter, Madam

3 Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I wish to raise

5 the question of the constant violation of Rules 68 and 66(B) as far as the

6 Office of the Prosecutor is concerned. I will be talking about document

7 P81. This document was not -- the document number is P551. This document

8 had not been disclosed to us until last night. We could not --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: 551?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 581, Your Honour. P581.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It sounded strange, because in the transcript we had

12 551 and I couldn't fit that.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 581 and 5812. Yes. 581 for the time being.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 581, Your Honour. First of all, the

16 documents that are on EDS and were handwritten, several times when talking

17 to the OTP I told them that the computer cannot recognise them and --

18 anyway, we received it only last night. I'm quite convinced that this is

19 a document that belongs to the category of the previous statement of the

20 witness, and we asked for these documents to be submitted to us in

21 accordance with Rule 66(B). Obviously, they do fall under 66(B) and we

22 are entitled to have them and we have the right to prepare the Defence of

23 our client as best possible.

24 Several times during the course of this trial, Mr. Wubben, the

25 Prosecutor, talked about surprise tactics. That is what they've been

1 trying to do all the time. Your Honours, once again I request that all

2 these documents that have to do with previous witness statements and

3 everything that would belong to that category, and documents that have to

4 do with our witnesses and that we need in order to prepare our Defence,

5 that they be submitted to us immediately and in a timely fashion.

6 Even before we received this document, we sent them a very

7 definite letter along those lines. But, quite simply, they are not

8 honouring that. They do disclose or do not disclose. You caution them,

9 and this has been going on forever, and we are not in a position to

10 prepare our Defence as we could if we had all the documents made available

11 to us.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 What's your position on this, Mr. Wubben?

14 Before you do so, you also mentioned when you started, Ms. Vidovic

15 - just for the record, that's all in line 20 of the previous page, page

16 35 - you also mentioned Rule 68.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Rule 68 does not

18 pertain to this document; however, very soon we will be addressing the

19 Trial Chamber again with a motion that will have to do with Rule 68. We

20 are expecting another response from the Prosecutor in that sense. But

21 specifically now I was talking about Rule 66(B).

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

23 Mr. Wubben, the allegation is that, although you are bound by Rule

24 66(B) to "... permit the defence to inspect any books, documents," et

25 cetera, on request, "which are material to the preparation of the defence,

1 or are intended for use by the Prosecution as evidence at trial or were

2 obtained from or belonged to the accused," that by not making this

3 document, 581, available to the Defence in good time, instead of

4 yesterday, you've violated the provision that I have just mentioned.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Your Honour, I will give an answer to that, but

6 first I object to the use of the word "surprise attacks" or something like

7 that that we would have mentioned or used earlier.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stick --

9 MR. WUBBEN: And as far as I --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to this --

11 MR. WUBBEN: I would rather keep it professionally. And indeed to

12 answer your question --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to answer now.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, now. We disclosed -- we disclosed this document

15 indeed yesterday. We add to it that in an earlier phase we already

16 disclosed it, and we had receipts of numbers of those disclosing. Those

17 were referring to receipts 17 and 51 respectively. So we disclosed it,

18 and already pointed out in an earlier phase we disclosed it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't get this. 17 and 51, what's this? P --

20 let's talk about P581. You're saying that you had disclosed this to the

21 Prosecution -- to the Defence earlier on?

22 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, in an earlier stage.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be more precise?

24 MR. WUBBEN: We disclosed it yesterday because they asked for it,

25 so it was redisclosed. And in the letter --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: When --

2 MR. WUBBEN: -- in which we updated them that we already

3 redisclosed -- already disclosed it in the past, we add to it, for their

4 courtesy, again.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: How had you disclosed it in the past?

6 MR. WUBBEN: Please --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In paper format; in hard copy, in other words?

8 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment.

9 It was done via CD, and we have a receipt number, and that number

10 is 17, and I was referring to that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And if I understood you well, you were complaining,

12 Ms. Vidovic, that in the electronic database the script, as I understood

13 it, if not always sometimes the print, does not show up in a legible

14 manner. Does this apply also to the CD that was, according to the

15 Prosecution, handed to you as per receipt number 17 or not?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we usually have very

17 precise information. I think the answer is no, but we'll check the CD.

18 However, what I said before, when a handwritten document is submitted

19 electronically, then it is not possible to find it according to the

20 criterion, say, Ejub Dedic, because the computer absolutely does not

21 recognise handwritten documents. Believe me, Your Honour, this is what

22 I've been telling them time and again. And quite simply, they've been

23 turning a deaf ear to this. And in this way they've hindered the

24 preparation of the Defence. It is only fair for us to be able to prepare

25 our Defence in the best possible way. So if we ask for all previously

1 given statements, this belongs to that category, and they were duty-bound

2 to give it to us. If we had received it in electronic form, we were not

3 in a position to recognise it.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Wubben, please.

5 MR. WUBBEN: If I may help out and support the Defence on my

6 recent information, it was -- the receipt 17 was done on the 12th of

7 November, 2003, referring to a CD, including various ERN numbers, and

8 within the range of that particular document. So 12th of November,

9 2003 --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, because I don't want to have this blown

11 beyond proportions until it can be finalised. It's true that -- what

12 Ms. Vidovic points out, that when you post this in the electronic

13 database, what the system can search is what is printed and readable

14 according to the soft ware and readable for the software. When it comes

15 to script, written, it's practically almost 100 per cent impossible to

16 conduct any search that would lead you to the document. However, in this

17 particular case, and this is why I'm saying I don't want to blow it up

18 beyond proportions at the present moment, the fourth page is not

19 handwritten, the fourth page is printed. And it shows the name of the

20 witness.

21 So presumably, although I am saying this always subject to

22 correction because, of course, I don't know what has happened in this

23 case, by an ordinary search through the electronic database, one should at

24 least locate this page. But it doesn't necessarily -- at least to my

25 knowledge, it doesn't necessarily tie it up to the previous three

1 documents because what you would find is just the fourth page and not also

2 the previous three pages.

3 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, that might be true when it comes to EDS

4 as a technical approach, but definitely in this way --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's going to change --

6 MR. WUBBEN: -- we provided them with a CD. So a CD in which

7 easily can be done --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic is not categorically denying that you

9 did. She said that she will be locating the CD and checking. And then if

10 necessary, we will come back to this matter later on.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I hope anyhow that she will do it outside the court,

12 because so far our aim was between the parties to solve any questions

13 outside the court in order to support a smooth operation in that respect.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 MR. WUBBEN: And I'm still pursuing that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you both. Let's bring the witness in and

17 try to move, because we are losing time, precious time.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me just put the witness's mind at rest that the

22 reason why we are starting again somewhat later than I said has got

23 nothing to do with you, Mr. Dedic. We just had a procedural problem that

24 we needed to address. So sorry about that. Mr. Wubben can now proceed.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

1 Q. Mr. Dedic, this morning, first session you were shown a document

2 P581. I have a question in that respect.

3 MR. WUBBEN: May I ask the usher to put the third page of the

4 Serbian version on the ELMO, please. Can the usher please move to the

5 bottom of the document, show -- yes.

6 Q. Right under, Mr. Dedic, in the first session this morning your

7 testimony was that you signed for this form, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. This is my signature at the end of the form.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. WUBBEN: And please leave that on the ELMO, Usher, and I would

11 like to ask you to show the witness P88.

12 Now will you, Madam Usher, please move to the -- show the witness

13 the fourth page, the page with the names. And place it in such a manner

14 next to the P581 that the name of Ejub Dedic is next to each other and

15 shown in the centre of the ELMO. Can you please lower -- thank you. And

16 to the right more. Yes. Thank you. Please leave it there.

17 Q. Yesterday you said that this form had not been signed by you. Is

18 that correct? Is that true?

19 A. I did not sign this form. On the document up here, that is my

20 signature.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Dedic, I know you're not a handwriting expert, but

22 doesn't it appear to be the same slanting backwards sloping writing when

23 it comes to your name?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't you put a much simpler question, Mr. Wubben?

25 "Don't you see a similarity between the two?"

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10

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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15

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25

1 MR. WUBBEN:

2 Q. Don't you see a similarity between the two names as written down

3 there, your name?

4 A. If you're asking me --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I think he is asking you, yes.

6 MR. WUBBEN:

7 Q. Can you -- indeed you should look at the ELMO and not on the

8 screen. Did you take a look at the screen -- well, and will you now

9 please take a look at the ELMO. On the ELMO there are two documents.

10 Please, Witness -- I can't see the witness. Please, Mr. Dedic, can you

11 take a look at me? Yes. Will you please take a look at the two documents

12 in front of you on the ELMO and answer my question: Is there a similarity

13 between the two names as written down there, your name?

14 A. Similarity between my name on the document where it says "date and

15 place of filling out form, Ejub," and then --

16 Q. No, Mr. Dedic. I'm sorry. On both documents your name are

17 written. One document is document P581. You signed for it, and yesterday

18 your testimony on the other document, P88, was: I did not sign that form.

19 Now, my question is: You see -- you notice your name. Is there in this

20 handwritten form a similarity between those two names as it is written

21 down?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. WUBBEN: That's all, Your Honour.

25 MR. JONES: The interpretation is still going. Your Honour, it's

1 a big --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Choose who goes first.

3 MR. JONES: It's a major problem. I've noticed it time and again.

4 I can hear the interpretation, maybe because my colleague is still going,

5 and the witness says yes to the first part of the question and then that's

6 taken as an answer.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So what did you say yes to? Mr. Dedic, when you

8 said "yes" a moment ago, what were you confirming?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That on both documents you can see

10 my name and surname.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but the question wasn't whether you can see

12 your name and surname on both documents. Whether your -- the way your

13 name and surname appears in both these documents is similar or not,

14 whether the handwriting is similar or not, basically. This is what you're

15 being asked to answer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a small similarity between

17 the handwriting of the last name and there is no similarity in the

18 handwriting of the first names on these two documents. I don't know

19 whether I've been clear.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour. He gave a

23 full answer and it simply did not enter the transcript. This is the

24 answer that he gave.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What he has just said now?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you're telling us that he had said it

3 before but it did not show up in the transcript?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what to say. I know that there is a

6 protocol how you're supposed to deal with problems with transcripts, and

7 my attention has been drawn to that. But at the same time certain matters

8 that arise during the sitting have to be addressed during the sitting.

9 Yes, do you want to pursue this matter any further, Mr. --

10 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Usher. I would like to move to the

13 following document: ERN DA17-0504. Will you please show that to the

14 witness, Madam Usher.

15 It's a new exhibit, Your Honour. For your information, it has

16 been translated partly.

17 Q. Mr. Dedic, is this a document from the 28th Division command of

18 the date of the 30th of March, 1995, and it is dealing with proposals of

19 the Golden Lily badge war commendation. Is it true that you received

20 Golden Lily badge war commendation?

21 A. No. I never received the Golden Lily order.

22 Q. Had you been recommended for such an order?

23 A. As far as I know no one had ever proposed me for that.

24 Q. Let me move to the page -- let me move to the page where your name

25 is stated. That's further on in the document, under number 1: Dedic

1 (Ramiz) Ejub.

2 A. I'm sorry. What was the page?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which DA17 number?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. I'll take a look at it, Your Honour. It's page

5 DA17-0521.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's the page before the last page, basically, we

7 are talking about. The last page or the page before at the very end.

8 MR. WUBBEN: I will ask --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the page before the last. Okay. The -- about

10 ten, 15 lines from the top. Have you find it -- found it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. This is number 1 on

12 the page before the last, where my name is mentioned.

13 MR. WUBBEN:

14 Q. I will now ask you questions related to that paragraph. It's

15 stated: "He -" that's apparently you - "he joined the RBiH armed forces

16 on the 15th of April, 1992, as a member of the 1st Cerani Detachment on

17 the duty of deputy commander of the 3rd Company." And it follows as, I

18 quote: "He then became the commander of the 8th Company and was

19 performing this duty up until November 1992."

20 Is that true, that you were also subsequently the commander of the

21 8th Company?

22 A. By your leave, I wish to mention here again that this is the first

23 time I have heard of the 8th Company. I have never before heard of such a

24 formation. Let me repeat once again, I do apologise --

25 Q. Yes. My question to you was very simple. Is it true or is it not

1 true or you don't know whether or not you subsequently became the

2 commander of the 8th Company and were performing your duty up until

3 November 1992?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer yes or no. It's true or it's not

5 correct.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, absolutely not.

7 MR. WUBBEN:

8 Q. Is it true --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

10 Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really feel that in

12 such situations it's necessary for the witness to explain why not.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's why I didn't stop him myself actually.

14 He was giving an answer. But anyway, let's proceed.

15 MR. WUBBEN:

16 Q. Mr. Dedic, is it true or not that after that you were appointed

17 the chief of Secretariat of Defence of Vlasenica municipality?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He has explained this already, that to his knowledge

19 there was no such Secretariat of Defence of Vlasenica municipality and he

20 was not in Vlasenica in any case.

21 MR. WUBBEN:

22 Q. And is it true, Mr. Dedic, that you particularly distinguished

23 yourself in the sabotage action of the Chetnik stronghold above the

24 village of Vandjici in July of 1992?

25 A. No. That's not correct.

1 Q. Had there ever been such a --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- one moment. What's not correct, that you

3 particularly distinguished yourself in that sabotage action or that you

4 actually did not take part at all in that sabotage action? What are you

5 trying to tell us?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not there at all. I did not

7 participate in that action.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next question.

9 MR. WUBBEN:

10 Q. Is it true that you also participated with a number of other

11 soldiers in a sabotage action on Metaljka on the 12th of October, 1992?

12 A. This is correct. On that occasion, together with a small group, I

13 participated in the destruction of an enemy tank.

14 Q. Were you a deputy commander of that group by then?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you also participated in the action on Ilino Brdo on the 8th

17 of February, 1993?

18 A. No. On the 8th of February, 1993, there were the fiercest attacks

19 on the area where I was.

20 Q. Is it true that you refused earlier the commendation of the Golden

21 Lily out of modesty?

22 A. Please, I wish to repeat again: I was never proposed for the

23 Golden Lily war commendation.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, can this be assigned an exhibit number?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben. This document, which in the B/C/S

2 version starts from DA17-0504 until DA17-0522, part of which has been

3 translated into English, a copy consisting of two pages, is being tendered

4 and received and marked as Prosecution Exhibit P583.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

6 Madam Usher, will you please provide -- show to the witness ERN

7 02123453.

8 Q. This document, Mr. Dedic, is dated the 9th of August, 1992. It's

9 signed by Mr. Hodzic, page 3, as commander of the Vlasenica armed forces,

10 and it is an order on appointing war deployment. I refer you to chapter

11 B, capital "B/ On war duties in the 1st Cerani Detachment, I appoint and

12 promote..."

13 Do you read that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Under paragraph 2: "Assistant commander for morale, education,

16 Dedic, Ejub, son of Ramiz."

17 Is that referring to you. Is that true?

18 A. This does refer to me as far as my first and last name are

19 concerned, yes.

20 Q. Did you finish the higher school of economics and SRO?

21 A. No. No, I completed the pedagogical school, not the economic --

22 not the school of economics.

23 Q. And is it true that you were on war duty in the municipal

24 Territorial Defence staff from the 15th of April, 1992, as stated?

25 A. Please, if you will allow me, I wish to comment on this very

1 briefly, by your leave.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to note -- I wish to note now

4 that there was never any military staff there, nor did I ever work, as it

5 says here, on the job -- or rather, I never performed any duty in the

6 municipal Territorial Defence Staff from the 15th of April, 1992. As I

7 mentioned, as of this date, I was part of a group, the leader of which was

8 Mirsad Sulejmanovic, also known as Skejo, so my activities cannot be

9 linked to any kind of staff. So the answer is no.

10 MR. WUBBEN:

11 Q. When I see the name of Mr. Hodzic, you are familiar with that

12 name, isn't it?

13 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the name of Hodzic.

14 Q. He was the commander of Vlasenica armed forces, wasn't he?

15 A. He was able to write down that he was the commander of the

16 Vlasenica armed forces. I couldn't prohibit him from doing that. But he

17 was a group of a leader -- he was the leader of a group that arrived with

18 him when it was expelled from Vlasenica and arrived in Cerska. He

19 persistently attempted to unify all those groups, to bring them together,

20 but in my view, he never succeeded in that.

21 Q. Mr. Dedic, in Vlasenica, prior to his arrival in Cerska, he was

22 commander?

23 A. Yes. Mr. Hodzic was the commander of the Territorial Defence

24 staff in Vlasenica until the beginning of the war; that is, in peacetime.

25 Q. And Vlasenica being the capital of the municipality, isn't it?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So he was the commander of the armed forces, the TO, in Vlasenica,

3 the capital of Vlasenica municipality, and he came with a lot of his men

4 towards Cerska?

5 A. He did arrive in Cerska in late May or early June with quite a few

6 men, but with very few armed men.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a distortion

9 of what the witness is saying. The Prosecutor asked him whether he was

10 the commander of the Territorial Defence staff before the war and the

11 witness replied, yes, he was before the war. And then the Prosecutor goes

12 on to ask: So he was the commander of the armed forces. These two

13 questions have nothing to do with each other and they are confusing and

14 misleading the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think they are that misleading or confusing.

16 I think what the witness has said is very clear; that to him, Mr. Hodzic

17 was commander of the Territorial Defence of Vlasenica before the war.

18 After that, he came to Cerska and he pretended to continue to be so. This

19 is how I have understood his testimony throughout. I mean, if --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: If Mr. Wubben is not understanding it the way I am

22 understanding, he's free, of course, to proceed with questions. But I

23 don't think he's misleading the witness or -- I don't think so. Or at

24 least, I haven't thought that in question --

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And I see from observing the -- both Judge Eser and

2 Judge Brydensholt with me.

3 Yes.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. So Mr. Hodzic, and his first name is Ferid, isn't it, Ferid

6 Hodzic?

7 A. Yes. Ferid Hodzic.

8 Q. He arrived in Cerska after the fall of Vlasenica, around the

9 spring of 1992?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He just said around about the end of May or June of

11 1992. That's what he said.

12 MR. WUBBEN: I'm now referring to the fall of Vlasenica.

13 Q. When was the fall of Vlasenica, Mr. Dedic?

14 A. Vlasenica fell in mid-April 1992, but these groups, that is a

15 certain number of armed men, together with Mr. Ferid Hodzic, hid with a

16 large group of refugees in the woods, hoping to be able to return to the

17 town. When they realised they could no longer return to Vlasenica, after

18 that they arrived in Cerska. That's why they arrived somewhat later than

19 the fall of Vlasenica.

20 Q. And Mr. Hodzic also brought weaponry and ammunition with him?

21 A. I recall seeing a small number of armed men who arrived with him.

22 But Mr. Hodzic did not have any personal weapons on his arrival in Cerska.

23 Q. And your testimony yesterday was that he tried to unite local

24 groups that were active in Cerska, isn't it?

25 A. Yes. Throughout this time, he kept trying to do so.

1 Q. He tried, according to this letter, the heading -- he tried to

2 improve the organisation formation structure and leadership and command

3 system of the Vlasenica municipality armed forces, isn't it?

4 A. Yes. I wish to repeat once again quite clearly, he was only

5 trying to do this.

6 Q. So uniting them, those forces, under unitary or under one command,

7 what it is?

8 A. The unifying of all the groups in the areas of Skugrici and Cerska

9 under one command was never carried out. From the beginning of the war

10 until the fall of these areas, they acted locally. They were active in

11 the areas where they had been before the war. A joint command was never

12 formed. They were never located in a single place. They never received

13 and carried out orders --

14 Q. I apologise to interrupt you, Mr. Dedic; that was not my question.

15 My question was very simple: Did he try to unite these forces under one

16 command or not? A simple "yes" or "no" or "I don't know" will do.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did try.

19 MR. WUBBEN:

20 Q. Thank you. What was the reason of such a uniting of groups --

21 MR. JONES: Such an attempt. Let's be clear. In

22 cross-examination one can put propositions but not ignore what the witness

23 said --

24 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry, I --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

1 Have you understood the question?

2 MR. WUBBEN: I will repeat it, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think --

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. Can you tell me what is the background, what is the reason of

6 such, of the policy of trying to unite the groups?

7 A. The fundamental reason for the attempt to unify the local groups,

8 in Mr. Hodzic's view, was that this would facilitate the defence of the

9 Skugrici and Cerska areas where he was active along with the local groups.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. WUBBEN:

12 Q. What do you mean, Witness, by "facilitating the defence"?

13 A. In view of the fact that Mr. Hodzic had some experience since he

14 had worked in the Vlasenica Municipal Staff before the war, he probably

15 had a vision according to which the unifying of all these groups would be

16 a better solution and would lead to better results. That was his vision,

17 that was his plan. But how he meant to carry it out, I don't know.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. WUBBEN: May I ask the usher to show the witness P123.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let's give this document a number.

21 The last document, this last document, which consists of two pages in

22 B/C/S and three pages containing corresponding translation thereof into

23 English, with ERN 02123453 to 4 is being tendered, received, and marked as

24 Prosecution Exhibit P584.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

1 Q. Witness, do you have in front of you a report of the established

2 staffs by Tuzla district, dated the 29th of August, 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment, Your Honour.

5 Q. Will you please move to B/C/S page -- no. First -- that's not

6 page 1. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. For me it's the page with ERN 01827482, starting

7 with: "Pursuant to your order ..."

8 Do you read that, Witness, Mr. Dedic?

9 A. No, I don't see it. I have document 01827482 [Realtime

10 translation read in error "01826482"], but at the moment I can't see what

11 you are referring to.

12 Q. I will read the rest at issue --

13 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, it is ERN 01827482.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Usher -- yeah, yeah -- 82 -- he said, at least

15 according to the transcript, 01826 and you are saying 827.

16 MR. WUBBEN: 01827482.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the difference between what

18 you said and what he said is that one said 6 and the other one said 7. So

19 I want to make sure that we're talking about the same. What does he have,

20 7 or 6?

21 MR. WUBBEN: Should be the first B/C/S page.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: 7. So you do have, according to the usher, the

23 correct document, Mr. Dedic. Please again refer him now to this specific

24 part of that page that he needs to look at.

25 MR. WUBBEN:

1 Q. Mr. Dedic, can you read, and I quote: "Pursuant to your order,

2 strictly confidential number --"

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The beginning of the document, basically, the --

4 after the headings. Did you find it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, I've been

6 following, as the gentleman was reading. I found that part now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 Mr. Wubben.

9 MR. WUBBEN:

10 Q. And I quote: "Please find enclosed the report on established

11 staffs and unit of the armed forces of the Tuzla district."

12 Can you read that?

13 A. Yes. On the page bearing the number 01827485, at the end it says:

14 "Municipal defence staff of Vlasenica." Is this it?

15 Q. No.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I will reiterate my question.

17 Q. On the first page of the report there is this paragraph you prior

18 could read, starting with the words: "Pursuant to your order ..."

19 Now, on the second line there's a reference to the report on

20 established staffs and units of the armed forces of the Tuzla district.

21 Can you read it, Mr. Dedic?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Thank you. This -- on the last page of this report you find the

24 name Commander Zeljko Knez. Can you read it?

25 A. Yes. This was the page before last in my copy, Commander Zeljko

1 Knez.

2 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Dedic, that Zeljko Knez was at that time in

3 August 1992 the commander of the Tuzla District Defence staff?

4 A. I know that Zeljko Knez was the commander, but I'm not sure of the

5 time period.

6 Q. Is it true that according to this report and the address addressed

7 to, the Tuzla district reported to the staff of the Supreme Command of the

8 armed forces in Sarajevo?

9 A. From the heading of the document it can be seen that the report

10 was drawn up by the Tuzla District Defence staff. It's about the staffs

11 established. I don't know to whom it was forwarded. It probably was

12 forwarded to someone, since it was compiled, but by your leave, as there

13 are quite a few municipal staffs here, he mentions the municipal defence

14 staff of Vlasenica on page 01 --

15 Q. Mr. Dedic, please. I apologise to interrupt, but the question

16 really only focussed on your confirmation or not or you don't know to what

17 address this report was addressed to. So please answer with yes or no:

18 Had it been addressed to Sarajevo, the staff of the supreme command? Yes

19 or no or you don't know.

20 A. I don't know to whom this report was sent.

21 Q. Do you read that the report is addressed to the staff of the

22 Supreme Command of the armed forces in Sarajevo?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: Yes. So it's clear that the confusion results from

25 the ambiguity between, A, asking the witness to confirm what is stated in

1 the document, which is largely unnecessary because we can all read for

2 ourselves what the document says, and asking this witness to confirm that

3 in fact this report was addressed or sent to Sarajevo. The witness has

4 asked -- answered the second question, clearly he doesn't know whether or

5 not it was received. If he's being asked merely to confirm that the

6 document says what it says, then I don't see the point, because we can all

7 read that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, when it comes to asking questions --

10 putting questions to a witness and when a lawyer is using a document, we

11 first go through the background or the heading or whatsoever of the

12 document and you try to ensure that the witness is reading what the

13 document is about. And of course everybody could -- can read it. But the

14 confirmation for the transcript is very important that the witness has

15 read it --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with you, Mr. Wubben. But sometimes it

17 gets confusing because witnesses themselves realise -- sometimes wonder

18 why they are being asked to confirm what a document states when it should

19 be clear to everyone.

20 MR. JONES: Well, particularly because here the question was:

21 "Had it been addressed to Sarajevo the staff of the Supreme Command, yes

22 or no or you don't know?" Well, how can the witness not know what's in

23 front of him?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a matter of -- the problem is English more

25 than anything else.

1 MR. JONES: That suggests that the witness is being asked to give

2 an answer based on his own knowledge not on just what the document says.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut this short.

4 What do you want to know from the witness?

5 MR. WUBBEN:

6 Q. On the second page, Witness, do you read the reference to Bratunac

7 municipal staff?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dedic, do you see it or not?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, yes. On page 2:

10 Municipal staff, Bratunac. Yes, yes, that is what is written here.

11 MR. WUBBEN:

12 Q. Is it true that at the time of the report there was indeed a staff

13 in the Bratunac municipal staff?

14 A. As far as I know, no.

15 Q. And is it true that there was a 1st TO detachment?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: In Bratunac, obviously.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Still in Bratunac.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is a fact that I am unaware of.

19 MR. WUBBEN:

20 Q. And a second TO detachment?

21 A. Again, I'm unaware of the existence of the second territorial

22 detachment in the municipal staff in Bratunac.

23 Q. Let us move to the page further on, dealing with the Vlasenica

24 municipality defence staff. That's ERN 01827482.

25 Do you read that, Mr. Dedic?

1 A. Yes, but that's not the number I have here. But that is what it

2 says: "Municipal staff of Vlasenica." 01827485 is the number I have.

3 Q. It's -- in the report, it's confirming as by August 1992 there was

4 a staff. Is that true?

5 A. That is not true.

6 Q. Is it true that there was a reconnaissance platoon?

7 A. No, that is not true.

8 Q. And a protection headquarters company?

9 A. Never heard of this company. As far as I know, I've never heard

10 of any such thing.

11 Q. And a Vlasenica TO detachment. Is that true?

12 A. No. TO Vlasenica detachment, no. Never existed.

13 Q. And the Cerska TO detachment. Is that true?

14 A. No, no. Cerska TO detachment never existed either.

15 Q. The Djile TO detachment, if I pronounce it correctly?

16 A. No, no. It did not exist.

17 Q. A 1st and 2nd Kladanj TO Company?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm allowing this because the same question was

19 asked yesterday and he answered to each and every one of them, but I'm not

20 quite sure whether the question he was asked yesterday was with reference

21 to the 9th of August or not. So this is why I'm allowing you to finish

22 this series of questions.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Because he went through this yesterday and he denied

25 the existence of -- or the knowledge of the existence of any of these.

1 MR. WUBBEN:

2 Q. Your answer is --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether it was the same document or

4 not.

5 MR. WUBBEN:

6 Q. Mr. Dedic, your answer is under 8, 9, and 10, these companies and

7 detachment doesn't exist at the time?

8 A. Yes. My answer is that they did not exist. Let me just repeat

9 this, Your Honour, by your leave. I really don't know whether there were

10 any companies in Kladanj. Yesterday I mentioned that Kladanj is about 60

11 to 70 kilometres away from Cerska. And what particularly confuses me

12 here is number 10, or rather, no, sorry, number 9. It says Pobudje TO

13 Company. Again, I repeat that Pobudje was within the municipality of

14 Bratunac before the war, and even today it is in the municipality of

15 Bratunac. And this really has nothing to do with the municipality of

16 Bratunac.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Of Vlasenica.

18 Yes, let's move, Mr. Wubben.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

20 Q. It correct that the municipality fell under the Tuzla district at

21 the time?

22 A. If this is a question for me, I did not quite understand what the

23 gentleman wished to ask me.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether Vlasenica municipality formed part of the

25 Tuzla district at the time.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality of Vlasenica at

2 that time, that is to say before the war, was within the Tuzla district,

3 yes.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. Thank you. That's for this document. Mr. Dedic, can you hear me?

6 A. Yes, I can hear you very well.

7 Q. Yesterday you stated that the Defence in Cerska had been organised

8 locally.

9 A. Yes. The defence in Cerska had been organised at local level.

10 Q. And there were smaller and bigger armed group that rallied around

11 their leaders. True?

12 A. Yes. That is true.

13 Q. What do you mean by those armed units? How many were those when

14 it comes to the area of Cerska?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness keeps talking about

17 armed groups and Prosecutor Wubben keeps talking about armed units.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That doesn't really make --

20 MR. WUBBEN: I will use the same words --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. The important thing is that we are not

22 confused in our mind, Madam Vidovic.

23 MR. WUBBEN: To be accurate, Your Honour, on page 6 of the

24 transcript of yesterday, on top, line 3, the answer is, and I quote:

25 "Yes, there were smaller or bigger armed units that rallied around their

1 leaders."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, you blow it up and it could become

3 a problem of interpretation. Let's move, please. Be practical --

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. What do you mean by that, "rallied around their leader," and can

6 you tell me the number of villages that had been organised like that?

7 A. Yes. I can give you some. I'm not going to give you all, I'm

8 quite sure, because I was not a person who was involved in these matters.

9 But I know one thing for sure: That in Skugrici there was a group whose

10 leader was Mirsad Sulejmanovic, Skejo. In Cerska, there was a bigger

11 group that rallied around its leader, Semso Salihovic. Then a smaller

12 group which rallied around Saban Muminovic. A group that came with

13 Mr. Hodzic from Vlasenica rallied around him, and a group that had rallied

14 around Mr. Besir Aljukic. And -- and a smaller group that was rallied

15 around Fikret Mustafic and was active in the area of the villages that I

16 mentioned yesterday, Tumace and Macesi. Perhaps there were some other

17 smaller groups that I cannot recall at this moment, but at any rate these

18 are the ones that I remember well now.

19 Q. When you refer to those groups in the area of Cerska, the total

20 number of those groups - and I don't mean strength or whatever - groups

21 rallied around the leader, the total number, was that around 15 or 20, can

22 you give an estimation to your best knowledge?

23 A. I could not give any estimate. These are the groups that I

24 mentioned, and I am sorry -- I've just remembered the group of Mr. Mekanic

25 that came in the summer of 1992. Yes. So at this moment I could not give

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1 the exact number of all these groups.

2 Q. But I don't ask you for an exact number. Let me just rephrase and

3 ask you simply: Was it more than 20?

4 A. There were certainly less than 20.

5 Q. More than 10?

6 A. Well, now perhaps I could start all over again and write this down

7 on paper so that I would not engage in guesswork, how many there were.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that he is understanding or --

9 because I'm getting a little bit confused here.

10 The question is a very simple one. These leaders that you have

11 just mentioned coming from different places, each one of them, on an

12 average, how many -- how many members of the group would rally around

13 them? Say if -- on an average because I would imagine that they various

14 varied from one to the other, but on average when we're talking about

15 these six, seven, eight leaders that you mentioned having people rally

16 around them, how many people would rally around each one of these seven,

17 eight, nine, ten leaders?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you that according to my

19 knowledge from later on, in the entire area there was about 2.000

20 military-able men, and before the fall of Cerska there were between 4 to

21 500 pieces of weaponry in their hands. That is the information that I can

22 present to you at this point in time.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Have I made your life easier like that, Mr. Wubben?

24 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. In addition, and --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't try to make mine more difficult.

2 MR. WUBBEN:

3 Q. How many villages were organised like that?

4 A. Could you please clarify this question for me. Are you referring

5 to the number of villages where these groups were active?

6 Q. Yes. Muslim villages in the Cerska area.

7 A. Almost in most villages, especially those that were on the

8 outskirts that were in contact with Serb forces. That's where these

9 groups were.

10 Q. Yesterday you referred to Semso Salihovic as well as to a person

11 called Becir Mekanic. And I quote you from transcript page 8, line 16:

12 "As far as I know, there was quite a bit of disagreement among them. I

13 think that they were in competition."

14 What do you mean by that, "in competition"?

15 A. What I wish to say by that is that someone was always trying to be

16 the main authority in the area of Cerska. But of course no one ever

17 succeeded in that.

18 Q. What do you mean by main authority, a kind of chief commander?

19 A. Not in the sense of a commander-in-chief but a person who would be

20 trusted by most people from different groups. And people for the most

21 part mostly trusted those who were the bravest.

22 By your leave, Your Honours, I often said that when there was

23 mutual assistance between Konjevic Polje and Cerska this was always done

24 on a voluntary basis and people always went along with those who were the

25 bravest. And those who were the bravest were certainly in greatest

1 authority then, too.

2 Q. Well -- what was then the reason of someone like those two persons

3 mentioned of trying to become the authority or the top leader?

4 A. No one tried to be the top leader. This really has nothing to do

5 with government in power, but a leader in a different sense, someone who

6 would be trusted. And if necessary, he could always have a bigger group

7 of people trusting him.

8 Q. I will now move to another issue. You also stated yesterday that

9 groups were helping out each other, like Skugrici helping Konjevic Polje.

10 Can you give an example of that assistance on both sides, as you call it.

11 A. Yes. Assistance always consisted of the following: For instance,

12 when Konjevic Polje would be attacked, then at the invitation of people

13 from Konjevic Polje, a certain number of volunteers would come from Cerska

14 and help them out. The same happened when parts of Cerska were attacked.

15 When we requested assistance from Konjevic Polje, a certain number of

16 volunteers would invariably come to help us.

17 Q. And what's the reason for helping out each other? There were

18 enough concerns for their own villages, isn't it?

19 A. Absolutely, yes. There was always concern for one's own village,

20 but all villages were not attacked with the same intensity at any point in

21 time. One village would be in the greatest peril and in that situation we

22 would help out.

23 Q. Thank you. I will move to another issue, the issue of Nurif

24 Rizvanovic. He came into the area in August 1992, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it correct that Nurif Rizvanovic indeed had an idea of united

2 forces?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. What was the reason behind such a uniting of the forces?

5 A. The exact reason for his idea of uniting the forces is something I

6 don't know. But yesterday I mentioned that I was in personal contact with

7 him and that he thought that with the establishment of the so-called Drina

8 Division, that is to say with the joining up of forces, he would manage to

9 save the area from the enemy.

10 MR. WUBBEN: I will ask the usher now to show the witness D450.

11 Your Honours, in -- it shows -- the translation shows 450 but I

12 meant 415.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: 415. What -- which document --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So I just want to make sure that as far as the

16 transcript is concerned that's rectified, but I want to make sure that the

17 witness has 415 and not 450. All right. Thank you.

18 MR. WUBBEN:

19 Q. This document is bearing the head of a report -- reference is to

20 it -- sorry. On the bottom there is a reference to "communication and

21 information service of the armed forces of Bratunac and Vlasenica." My

22 question is: Are you aware of any combined forces when it comes to

23 communication and informations?

24 A. As far as I know, no.

25 Q. Isn't it true that by September 1992 a report like this could be

1 sent to Sarajevo and Tuzla?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: From where, Mr. Wubben?

3 MR. WUBBEN: From Konjevic Polje. Thank you for this question.

4 Q. Mr. Dedic, did you learn my question? Was it possible --

5 A. Please, could you repeat the question in its entirety for me

6 because I did not understand it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Repeat the question and I think we stop for a

8 break because I'm noticing that the witness is getting gradually -- more

9 tired.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Okay. I will stop -- I will stop --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just finish your question, repeat it again. But he

12 has slowed down considerably and I think that's because he's feeling

13 tired.

14 MR. WUBBEN:

15 Q. Is it possible from -- is it possible to send a report like this

16 from Konjevic Polje towards the Presidency in Sarajevo and the district

17 staff in Tuzla, as far as you know, in September 1992?

18 A. In my personal opinion, it was absolutely impossible to send this.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I come to another --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll have a 30-minute break, starting from

21 now.

22 And, Mr. Dedic, Mr. Dedic, are you feeling tired?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit, yes. I would welcome a

24 break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. I will give you a 30-minute break.

1 If after the 30-minute break you're still feeling tired, please tell us so

2 much and we'll see what we can do. All right. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, Mr. Dedic, how are you feeling?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That means we can continue?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, we can.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If -- we have another -- just over half an hour

11 left. We'll finish by quarter to 2.00. If in the meantime you think we

12 ought to stop and send you back to the hotel, we will do so and then we

13 will continue tomorrow.

14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Dedic, yesterday you testified that in the beginning of

17 November leaders of groups were invited to a meeting in Konjevic Polje

18 elementary school and the issue was to link up the armoured group. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, actually I'm seeing "armoured" here and I'm

22 wondering which armoured group you had in mind. And I don't know how it

23 was translated to the witness anyway. I would imagine you mean "armed"

24 group.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Armed group, indeed. Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And in fact I was looking at you to see whether

2 there was going to be some kind of reaction, but I immediately noticed

3 that Mr. Di Fazio had caught the hint straight away. Yeah, let's proceed.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. And I quote page 26 of the transcript from line 10 of yesterday:

6 "Mr. Salihovic then gave some ideas to the effect that Mr. Oric could,

7 according to Salihovic idea, be commander of all the forces from Cerska,

8 Kamenica, Konjevic Polje, and Srebrenica."

9 And further, line 19: "His idea was that all armed forces -" line

10 21 - "should be brought together, placed under a single command, because

11 in his opinion that was the only way to resist the enemy because this was

12 a time of very intensive attacks by the Serb forces in this area."

13 Do you recall that testimony, Mr. Dedic?

14 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

15 Q. You added to it, and I quote: "To be quite honest, I thought that

16 this was a very good idea and a very reasonable idea."

17 Do you recall?

18 A. Yes, I recall that well. Yes.

19 Q. Why was it such a good idea, a very good idea, and a very

20 reasonable idea?

21 A. In my opinion it was a reasonable and good idea because

22 Mr. Salihovic was very eloquent, and it seemed to me that what he was

23 presenting to us was something that might save us from this agony. So he

24 managed to convince me completely.

25 Q. You were convinced, so can you explain what was so very good about

1 helping out regarding this agony when such an idea of unification would be

2 implemented?

3 A. I can explain because these groups up to that time had acted

4 locally and only helped each other on a voluntary basis. What I expected

5 to happen now was that they would truly unite, have a command, have units,

6 and be able to function in a military sense and therefore be more

7 successful. That was my conclusion.

8 Q. Meaning also sharing information?

9 A. I don't understand your question. Can you repeat it, please.

10 Q. United armed forces share -- enable those forces to share their

11 information in a better way?

12 A. Absolutely, yes. Yes. There would be a better exchange of

13 information among the armed groups.

14 Q. And was it correct that some villages had groups that were -- that

15 consisted of a larger number of men than other villages?

16 A. Yes. The number of men in all the villages and all the groups was

17 not the same. Some groups were smaller and some were larger.

18 Q. And would such an idea of unification mean that the stronger will

19 help out the weaker groups?

20 A. Of course, in case of unification, stronger groups could of course

21 help the weaker groups, so while the weaker groups couldn't really help

22 the stronger groups. That's quite logical.

23 Q. Would a unified command also be profitable in that situation?

24 A. A unified command would have been a good idea in any situation,

25 had it been possible. It would have been a good idea, had it been

1 possible to create one.

2 Q. Yes. Such a unitary command, would that help to concentrate

3 forces rather in areas where defence is most necessary?

4 A. Such a command would certainly have succeeded in that, yes.

5 Q. And that is why you thought it a very good idea and a very

6 reasonable idea?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I quote --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

10 MR. WUBBEN:

11 Q. -- from the transcript page 27 on line 3: You attended two other

12 meetings. And line 16: "A decision was made to set up a War Presidency

13 of the subregion, and the president of this War Presidency would be

14 Mr. Salihovic. And to establish a staff of the armed forces of the

15 subregion that would be headed by Mr. Oric, as commander."

16 Now, Mr. Oric had been chosen as commander, isn't it?

17 A. Mr. Oric, as you yourself stated, was supposed to have been

18 appointed commander of the armed forces of the subregion, and

19 Mr. Salihovic, as you said, was to have been the chief of the War

20 Presidency of the subregion.

21 Q. Why was Mr. Naser Oric, as such, mentioned as the commander? Can

22 you explain.

23 A. Yes. Probably, I think, because Mr. Salihovic was from

24 Srebrenica, because Mr. Oric was from Potocari, he was from the Srebrenica

25 municipality. And he knew him well. So probably he felt that he might be

1 the man, if a subregion was established, that he could be the commander of

2 the staff of the armed forces of the subregion.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you have been shown a document, a decision

4 of the War Presidency, dated the 4th of November, 1992. A -- showing a

5 decision on joining the armed forces of the municipalities of Srebrenica,

6 Bratunac, Vlasenica, and Zvornik into the joined armed forces of the

7 subregion. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So a decision had been taken as such, and when it comes to the

10 commandership of Naser Oric being or becoming to elect -- to be elected as

11 a commander, what makes him so special to become a leader in such a top

12 position?

13 A. I don't know why he would be so special. The first time I saw

14 Mr. Oric was in mid-March 1993 in Konjevic Polje. This is the opinion of

15 Mr. Salihovic. Why he held this opinion, I can't know for certain. But I

16 assume he knew him better than he knew the other local leaders who he

17 might have considered.

18 Q. Yesterday you testified that the reason was because Mr. Oric was

19 brave like a lion and that -- and that that's one of the reasons why he

20 was chosen. Is that correct?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He had fought like a like a lion, like a dragon.

22 That's how he described it yesterday.

23 Yes, Madam Vidovic, what's your ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that might have been one of the

25 reasons, because I heard from people that there was a man called Naser

1 Oric who fought in the way I described. That might have been a reason,

2 but Mr. Salihovic might have also had other reasons for proposing this.

3 MR. WUBBEN:

4 Q. But wasn't it true that the meeting as such had adopted and the

5 decision I referred to reflected that the participants on the meeting

6 agreed upon the set up of War Presidency and appointment of Naser Oric as

7 the top commander?

8 A. Yes. At that meeting we agreed, and that was the decision put

9 down on paper. There's no doubt about that.

10 Q. Now, in your opinion, this was a good idea and at least a good

11 idea in November 1992. Was it also a good idea in October, October 1992?

12 A. I don't know what idea you're referring to. Can you clarify,

13 please.

14 Q. The idea of uniting the armed forces.

15 A. The idea of uniting the armed forces had always been a good idea.

16 It was a good idea in June, July, August, throughout the time we were

17 active in that territory.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dedic.

19 MR. WUBBEN: I will now ask the usher to show the witness D80 --

20 818.

21 Q. Do you have in front of you this order dated the 19th of November,

22 1992, signed -- not signed --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- with the name of the commander of the Drina Corps, Zivanovic.

25 I will ask you now after quotation a part of it, and that's the second

1 sentence: "In order to prevent passage to the enemy from Srebrenica to

2 Cerska and back," and further on in the order in the paragraph 2: "Cut

3 off the Srebrenica-Cerska corridor."

4 Do you read that -- did you read it?

5 A. No. Cut off the corridor? I can't find the text.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 1. Just behind -- you see on that page after

7 the -- there is one line with just one word, [B/C/S spoken], and then

8 there is number 1. It's [B/C/S spoken]. Can you see it now?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see that. I see it

10 well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 Now, your question, Mr. Wubben.

13 MR. WUBBEN:

14 Q. My question is: What was the reason to prevent passage to the

15 enemy from Srebrenica to Cerska, to your knowledge?

16 A. Is this a question for me?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

18 MR. WUBBEN:

19 Q. Yes, of course.

20 A. By your leave, before I answer I have to say that I'm not even

21 aware there was a corridor. If there was a corridor, then we would have

22 been able to pass through it without hindrance. There were only certain

23 very risky places where one could attempt to pass through. Yesterday, if

24 you recall, I said that a lot of people attempting to pass through those

25 places which were not a corridor were killed or wounded. So I'm not aware

1 that there was a corridor that could be used to go to Srebrenica and back.

2 Q. Now, do you agree with me that the Drina Corps command was

3 apparently worried about this corridor being used by the enemy from

4 Srebrenica?

5 A. I don't know whether they were worried or not, but according to

6 what it says here, they wanted to solve their worries by preventing people

7 from going anywhere from this enclave.

8 Q. At the time, November 1992, did indeed Muslim forces went from

9 Srebrenica to Cerska?

10 A. I think I told you yesterday that only occasionally from time to

11 time did some people manage to pass through and come back alive. No

12 groups, whether armed or unarmed, could pass through, but only small

13 numbers of people. And I repeat again, very often they were either killed

14 or seriously wounded trying to pass that way.

15 Q. Thank you. That's for this document.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Madam Usher, will you please show the witness

17 document D819.

18 Q. I read this is a decision to attack dated the 3rd of December,

19 1992, shown to you yesterday. It's a document from the Bratunac Brigade

20 command. Do you recall seeing that document yesterday?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I do recall.

22 Q. Now, I will go to this part in paragraph 4 and paragraph 5, 6, 7,

23 8, and 9. In these paragraphs, and I quote: "In various ways the

24 Bratunac command expressed their aim for the attack." Their aim for the

25 attacks on those nine paragraphs is, and I quote in the middle of

1 paragraph 4: "The aim of smashing Muslim forces." In paragraph 5, the

2 third line: "Destroying the Muslim forces." In paragraph 6: "To destroy

3 the Muslim forces." Paragraph 7 in the middle: "Also destroy the Muslim

4 forces." Reiterated in paragraph 8 in the middle: "Destroy the Muslim

5 forces." And paragraph 9, second line up to paragraph 10: "Tie down the

6 Muslim forces." And three lines above that: "Inflict as many casualties

7 on the Muslim forces as possible."

8 Mr. Dedic, this refers to various areas within the area of

9 responsibility of the Bratunac command. Why were -- why was the Bratunac

10 command so worried about those Muslim forces? What frightened them? What

11 made them attack -- what made them make such an order, a decision to

12 attack?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

14 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, firstly I don't know really whether

15 this witness can comment on what was going through the mind of Lieutenant

16 Colonel Borivoje Tesic and the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He can tell us that himself.

18 MR. JONES: -- and moreover what frightened them. There's no

19 indication here that they're frightened, maybe they're just smashing

20 Muslim forces. He shouldn't put something in which isn't in the document

21 really.

22 MR. WUBBEN: I object, Your Honour, this is already guiding the

23 witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, but it's actually -- because it's not

25 necessarily being frightened. When one decides to attack another, it's

1 not because he or they are necessarily frightened. It could be strategic.

2 Let's not discuss -- I would suggest that you use a very neutral

3 expression: "Why would the Bratunac Brigade be so interested in causing

4 all this destruction in amongst the Muslim forces?" and leave it at that.

5 Because it may have been just strategic, it may well have been that they

6 were afraid; I don't know. I mean, as Mr. Jones said, actually, I was not

7 in their mind and the witness was not in their mind. He can only

8 speculate. But if he does have a good reason or a good explanation for

9 this, let him come forward and answer your question.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

11 Q. So, Mr. Dedic, the question is: Why would the Bratunac Brigade be

12 so interesting in causing all this destruction among the Muslim forces?

13 A. Yesterday you probably noticed in Mr. Zivanovic's speech that

14 winter was an ally of the Serbs. They knew well that in those areas we no

15 longer had any food, clothing, footwear, that more than 70 per cent of the

16 residential housing had been destroyed, and that this was a time when the

17 Serb forces would be able to take control, full control, over this

18 territory with the least problems. That's my interpretation. But why

19 Mr. Zivanovic wrote what he did, that's something I cannot comment upon.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I noticed earlier on that you wished to say

21 something, Ms. Vidovic. Do you still want -- need to say what you meant

22 to say?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Because this might occur with the

24 following documents, I will say this: Mr. Wubben is interpreting the

25 document as if it happened in more than one area, but this document

1 describes a very specific area; Bratunac-Kravica-Banjevici. This is

2 precisely the Kravica area, it's not various areas.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you for that comment, Madam Vidovic.

4 Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN:

6 Q. Mr. Dedic, in paragraph 11 of the document. Yes, paragraph 11

7 deals with the issue of command and communication. And I quote: "Use

8 courier communications until attack commences. During attack, use radio

9 communications."

10 Are you aware of any reasons why only during the attack radio

11 communication should be used?

12 A. Please, I haven't found that part. Let me have a look again. I

13 have paragraph 11, where it says, "command and communications," but what

14 you just read out now is something that I didn't manage to find in here,

15 not yet at any rate -- oh, sorry. "Use courier communications until

16 attack commences. During attack, use radio communications."

17 Q. Now, my question, rephrased, is: Why should there be a radio

18 silence prior to the attack?

19 A. Mr. Tesic could probably give you a better answer to that

20 question, or one of his superior -- or rather, one of his officers who

21 wrote this. I really cannot say anything by way of comment as to what his

22 underlying idea was.

23 Q. Isn't the answer that - and I suggest it to you - that the Muslim

24 forces had the ability to intercept the radio communications?

25 A. I have no comment regarding that statement of yours.

1 MR. WUBBEN: Madam Usher, that's enough for that document.

2 Document D820, please, can you show that to the witness.

3 Q. D820, I apologise, has been shown to you yesterday. It was -- it

4 is the decision by Colonel Milenko Zivanovic of the Drina Corps command.

5 And I refer to paragraph 1 and will ask you for any comment. I quote:

6 "The enemy -" on the second line - "in the general Srebrenica-Zepa-Cerska

7 sectors and Kamenica area towards Zvornik, the enemy forces are rather

8 strong and their number is increasing from 10.000 to 15.000 armed

9 soldiers."

10 Do you agree with that?

11 A. Absolutely no. Had there been 10 to 15.000 soldiers there, I'm

12 sure that Zivanovic would not have been where he was. That's not even

13 close to what the actual situation on the ground was.

14 Q. And in the third paragraph -- sorry, not the paragraph, has no

15 number. So we are still on this chapter 1, and then the third paragraph

16 starting with the word: "Enemy forces of one reinforced company strength

17 have been deployed in the Kravica river valley."

18 "In -" further on - "In the Cerska area, the strength of enemy

19 forces is increasing to 2.000 armed soldiers."

20 Is that correct?

21 A. No. During the course of the day I gave you an answer to this

22 question. My estimate is that in Cerska there were about 2.000

23 able-bodied men. As for armed men, there were 400 to 500 of them. To my

24 knowledge, these numbers are an exaggeration, too.

25 Q. Let's move to page 5 of this order -- I mean page 5, the English

1 version. That's paragraph 6, or chapter 6, on commanding and

2 communication. Can you read that?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 6 in Bosnian as well -- page number is at the

4 top.

5 At the bottom of that page is number 6 [B/C/S spoken]. Can you

6 follow from there? Have you found it? Mr. Dedic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

11 Q. I will quote the third sentence of that chapter:

12 "Ensure complete secrecy in the commanding of units when preparing

13 and conducting combat operations.

14 "Use general KZ, cryptographic protections, documents (code

15 cable, signal tables and coded maps, et cetera) for all written and spoken

16 communication --"

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are not receiving an

18 interpretation.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need to address that problem.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please repeat

21 his question. Most of the Prosecutor's question was not interpreted.

22 We've just started receiving the interpretation now. So could the

23 Prosecutor please repeat his question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Madam Vidovic.

25 Mr. Wubben, please could you kindly repeat your question.

1 MR. WUBBEN: I will, Your Honour.

2 Q. I will quote two sentences and then ask for your comment,

3 Mr. Dedic. I will start the quotation now.

4 "Ensure complete secrecy in the commanding of units when preparing

5 and conducting combat operations.

6 "Use general KZ cryptographic protections/documents (code tables,

7 signal tables, encoded maps, et cetera) for all written and spoken

8 communication of information."

9 Again, my question is: When it comes to communication and

10 preventing -- prevention of intercepts via radio communication, doesn't

11 this document express the presumption that the Muslim forces were indeed

12 able to intercept that communication?

13 A. No. I could not give an affirmative answer to your question. As

14 far as I know, Muslim armed groups were not able to do what you mention in

15 this document, to carry out any interceptions.

16 Q. Thank you. I will move to another area and --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop on time because I have an important

18 appointment as soon as I finish.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Then it would be better to stop by now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 So, Mr. Dedic, we'll give you another rest. You will go back to

22 your hotel, and you will return back here tomorrow at 9.00. We are

23 sitting in this same courtroom at 9.00 in the morning, and we'll hopefully

24 try and finish with your testimony tomorrow. In the meantime, you are not

25 to communicate with anybody on the subject matter of your testimony. All

1 right.

2 Anything else before we rise? Thank you, and we will continue

3 tomorrow.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

6 October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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