1 Friday, 14 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

6 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you

11 can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I can

13 follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. Good morning to you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances. Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

18 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

19 for the Prosecution, and I'm here together with co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di

20 Fazio and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

22 your colleagues.

23 Appearances for Naser Oric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours; good

25 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution. I am Vasvija Vidovic.

1 Together with Mr. John Jones I appear for the Defence of Mr. Naser Oric.

2 With us is Ms. Adisa Mehic, our legal assistant, and our CaseMap manager,

3 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam, and good morning to you and your

5 colleagues.

6 Any preliminaries? So let's bring the witness in. Now, the

7 position is --

8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, we have a technical problem here, which

9 is that I'm not able to log on to the system. So although we have today's

10 transcript, I don't have yesterday's and I'm not able to stop and scroll

11 up. We've notified technical support and I think they're coming to help,

12 but I just --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would come down and do it for you ...

14 MR. JONES: I'm locked out of my account.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We can wait for them to fix it, because I think it's

16 important. I mean, it's important for us, let alone for you.

17 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, I can go ahead with this: I

19 calculated the time that you used yesterday, that you used yesterday for

20 your cross-examination, which of course does not include the time we used

21 and the time lost on this and on that and of course the time used by the

22 Defence. And you have already used 2.45 minutes from the five hours that

23 we gave you. And we are not going to give you a minute more than the five

24 hours, because we need also time ourselves to put questions.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Mr. Jones, can I go ahead with the

3 usual preliminaries?

4 Yes, good morning to you, Mr. Dedic. Welcome back. We hope that

5 this will be --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We hope this will be your last day with us, I mean

8 in this case, and that you will then be able to go back home. I hope you

9 have had enough time to rest, and in fact my first question to you is --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- whether you are feeling okay.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm fine.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether you are rested and whether we can continue.

14 Yes. Has the problem been fixed?

15 MR. JONES: It's being fixed, but I think we can proceed for the

16 time being.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The moment you need to stop, please do let me know

18 straight away and we will stop. Cross reference to previous transcripts

19 is always important.

20 Mr. Wubben.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 WITNESS: EJUB DEDIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Wubben: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dedic.

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. I will proceed on the questions I put to you yesterday, and we'll

3 continue with the issue of the subregion. Yesterday you gave evidence

4 about the meeting in which the subregion was decided upon, about the

5 documents regarding that decision, and you gave evidence about your

6 opinion that your position was that it was a very good idea and the reason

7 why.

8 I will turn now to the transcripts of the hearing of two days ago.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So here we -- let's see if we encounter the first

10 problem. Two days ago, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: It looks like I'm getting there. If you'd give me 30

12 seconds.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Take as much time as you require on this.

14 Sorry, Mr. Wubben, but I know you will understand that we should

15 do this.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Of course, Your Honour.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, I have yesterday's transcript now. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not yesterday's. He said two days ago.

19 MR. JONES: I have that as well. I have all of them.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Yes, Mr. Wubben. See if it's the case of starting again. And

22 your question was as follows: "I will proceed on the questions I put to

23 you yesterday, and we will continue with the issue of the subregion.

24 Yesterday you gave evidence about the meeting in which the subregion was

25 decided upon, about documents regarding that decision, and you gave

1 evidence about your opinion that your position was that it was a very good

2 idea and the reason why." And then you said you were going to turn to

3 this transcript of two days ago. So you're invited to do that and proceed

4 with your question.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I will.

6 Q. Transcript of two days ago, 12th of October, you gave evidence to

7 the Court, and I quote: "When --" it's, for the record, page 33, line 3:

8 "When communications were practically interrupted between Konjevic Polje,

9 Cerska, and Skugrici. It's practically impossible ..."

10 And page 35, upon the question: "When you described the reasons

11 for the impossibility of the subregion beginning to function ..." your

12 answer to the main reason for that was, and I quote line 17: "Precisely

13 so. The main reason was the total isolation of these areas; they were cut

14 off from each other."

15 Do you recall, Mr. Dedic?

16 A. Yes, I do recall.

17 Q. So is it your evidence that the lack of communication stood in the

18 way of the implementation of the subregion? Is that your testimony?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. WUBBEN: I will move to another issue, Your Honours. It's a

21 video clip, P329. It's in the transcripts as well on hard copy,

22 transcript 1. It's the interview of Naser Oric, page 7.

23 Your Honour, something --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I heard a bang, but I don't know what

25 fell. What was that? They're supposed to dismantle this courtroom in due

1 course, but it's being taken care of spontaneously.

2 MR. WUBBEN: So to repeat, P329, a video clip, transcript on hard

3 copy is page 7, and the video clip will start at 2 hours, 33 minutes, 85

4 seconds. It will take one or two minutes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to correct you that much, but it's 58 seconds

6 and not 85 seconds. Please let's not invent any new chronological

7 terms --

8 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you for that correction.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and calculations. Yes. Let's move.

10 [Videotape played]

11 "[Voiceover]... organised in Suceska, the Suceska territory and

12 Tuzla, then amongst the houses where they were staying, the people -- the

13 fighters who came to take part in the attack would then be accommodated in

14 these various houses. In other words, two or three would stay in each

15 house, so they'd have somewhere to sleep before the attack.

16 "Usually if fighters came from one local area to another to help

17 fight off an attack, for example, and if they stayed over overnight, then

18 usually they would be put up with those local civilians. And usually the

19 civilians, in terms of food or whatever, would give them whatever they

20 had.

21 "So that they would know, for example, which houses they could go

22 to after they went up to the front lines during the day, which houses they

23 could go to to get food. Of course, as the soldiers were making their

24 preparations, the civilians were making their preparations too. As they

25 had soldiers in their houses, they would hear where the first attack was

1 going to be and then they would also make their preparations then to go up

2 there, looking for food.

3 "And however much we tried to protect that information of what we

4 were going to do, we couldn't because we didn't have barracks and the

5 soldiers were sleeping amongst the civilians in their houses."

6 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Dedic, did you recognise the person sitting at the --

8 apparently the end, from your position on this picture, near the door?

9 A. Yes. I'm getting closer now. I think that is Mr. Oric, Mr. Naser

10 Oric.

11 Q. Mr. Naser Oric gave an interview, and in this interview he stated

12 in this clip, this footage, that: "Usually if fighters came from one

13 local area to another to help fight off an attack..." and then further on,

14 "stayed overnight with civilians giving shelter." Did you hear that

15 explanation?

16 A. No. This is the first time I hear this speech, this particular

17 morning, in the courtroom.

18 Q. What I mean is: Did you hear that Naser Oric was speaking about

19 the fact that fighters usually came from one local area to another to help

20 fight off an attack? Did you hear that?

21 A. Yes, I heard that. I heard him saying that. But I did not quite

22 understand which areas he was talking about. He probably knows.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that fighters from Naser Oric, if

24 so, came from one area to another to help fighting off an attack?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If I were the witness, I wouldn't be able to answer

1 this question, Mr. Wubben. What do you mean exactly? Because you're

2 saying: "Are you familiar with the fact that fighters from Naser Oric, if

3 so, came from one area to another to help fighting off an attack?"

4 Are you referring to the fighters under the command of Naser Oric

5 going from where they are to help fighting in another area? Is that your

6 question?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. And I give an example; to help off

8 fighters, armed units, or groups in the Cerska area.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer this first: What Mr. Wubben wants to

10 know from you is whether you are aware of members of Oric's group,

11 fighters in Oric's group, travelling to other areas to assist in the

12 fight?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is a fact that I'm

14 unaware of.

15 MR. WUBBEN:

16 Q. Yesterday you gave evidence of fighters helping out each other,

17 groups helping out each other, and the need for it in the Cerska area.

18 Did those fighters also go to other areas to help fighting off an attack?

19 A. Fighters from Cerska, as far as I know, helped each other out in

20 the territory of Cerska, and we also helped armed groups from Konjevic

21 Polje, and vice versa. I don't know whether fighters from Konjevic Polje

22 could ever have gone to Srebrenica. That is something I don't know about.

23 Q. But the question is about other areas, and you gave at least

24 evidence about the fact that fighters from Cerska were helping out an

25 attack, helping off an attack related to Kravica.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a small correction

3 of the transcript. The witness said: "I don't know whether fighters from

4 Cerska could go to Srebrenica," whereas the transcript says "... fighters

5 from Konjevic Polje could go to Srebrenica." The witness referred to

6 fighters from Cerska. He doesn't know whether they could go to

7 Srebrenica.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

9 Is that correct, Mr. Dedic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I just know facts about

11 fighters from Cerska, so this pertains to them.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Sorry, Mr. Wubben. Perhaps you can

13 repeat your question, and your question was -- anyway, you repeat it. The

14 question, as I read it here, you told the witness: "But the question is

15 about other areas, and you gave at least evidence about the fact that

16 fighters from Cerska were helping out an attack, helping off an attack

17 related to Kravica."

18 MR. WUBBEN: That's it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dedic, what's your answer to that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I spoke about that earlier on.

21 Fighters from Cerska - with your permission, I'd like to repeat that -

22 about 50 of them, and five to six fighters from Cerska, at the request of

23 a gentleman from Glogova, went to Kravica to help Mr. Golic. And I said

24 that it was our interest because we were often shelled from Kravica.

25 MR. WUBBEN:

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1 Q. Yes. So you told so. But the question was related to the fact

2 that not only the fighters from Cerska and Konjevic Polje helped out in

3 their own area, but also outside that area, isn't it?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you answer that question, Mr. Dedic, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question. If

6 possible, could it please be repeated? Because I don't really understand

7 what you're getting at. It's not a precise question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is, if you allow me, Mr. Wubben: It's

9 being suggested to you that the fighters from Cerska and Konjevic Polje

10 went out to help others, not only in their area but also outside their own

11 area. Would you agree to that?

12 Did I put your question --

13 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wish to repeat my answer to

16 this question. Fighters from Cerska and fighters from Konjevic Polje did

17 help each other out. I've repeated that several times. But the only fact

18 that I am aware of when the fighters from Cerska went further away from

19 Cerska and Konjevic Polje was on the 7th of January, 1993, when they were

20 in Kravica. I don't know whether it's clear now what I've been trying to

21 say.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Dedic.

23 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

24 MR. WUBBEN:

25 Q. Now, you also gave evidence about the fact that Hamed Salihovic,

1 as president of the subregion, War Presidency of the subregion, gave

2 orders and that those orders were also addressed to Semso Halilovic; is

3 that correct?

4 A. No, that's not correct. I don't know Semso Halilovic. The first

5 part of the question as to whether Hamed Salihovic had been appointed

6 president of the War Presidency of the subregion is correct. That's

7 correct. And I have already said that he issued orders. However, I don't

8 know Semso Halilovic. I don't know who that person is.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Salihovic.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Salihovic. I apologise, Mr. Dedic.

11 Q. Is it correct that Semso Salihovic in Cerska received orders from

12 Hamed Salihovic?

13 A. Yes. Semso Salihovic told me that Hamed, as soon as he saw

14 someone, immediately started issuing orders to that person. So in my

15 personal opinion, he was behaving like someone who was superior to all the

16 armed forces, and also in the civilian authorities, superior to everybody

17 else. That was how I saw Mr. Salihovic.

18 Q. But it is still your testimony that the subregion can be qualified

19 as an attempt, isn't it?

20 A. Yes. It was only an attempt.

21 Q. Now, when I see your position in that regard, if there had been a

22 system of couriers and radio communication, and that system permitted

23 communication, then you agree that the subregion would have functioned?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. Sorry. I didn't notice you before.

25 MR. JONES: Simply I object to that question as a pure

1 hypothetical. Those conditions didn't obtain and so it's not for this

2 witness to answer whether or not they would have functioned.

3 MR. WUBBEN: Objection, Your Honour, because this witness has a

4 specific idea about the fact that it was an attempt. He clarified it, he

5 reasoned it, and he also gave evidence about the reasons why it didn't

6 function.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So then ask him whether, in his considered opinion,

8 the lack of -- whether the failure of this attempt was due to the absence

9 of radio communication, existence of couriers, or the existing system of

10 rudimentary system of communication, if at all. Because the way you put

11 it, it seeks an opinion based on basically nothing, you know. I mean, it

12 is hypothetical as it is. If you invert the question, you can get the

13 same result without putting a hypothetical question. I don't know if

14 you --

15 MR. WUBBEN: I will not repeat the question, because that is the

16 same reflection as his own opinion about it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's not hypothetical.

18 Was one of the reasons for the failure to establish the subregion

19 due to the rudimentary system of communications?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the word

21 "rudimentary." Could you explain it to me.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's something which leaves much to be

23 desired, a system of communications which is not functioning, which has

24 got many defects, many defaults; it doesn't work. That's what I mean. In

25 other words, my question is: In your considered opinion, was the failure

1 to have this subregion ongoing at least partly due to the fact that there

2 was no good communications system at one's -- at the disposal or at your

3 disposal, or not?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because, Your Honours, there

5 was no system of communication. And as I said earlier, only on rare

6 occasions did people manage to pass out of these enclaves, to get out,

7 because of the fierce attacks. And in essence, nothing changed except

8 that these ideas were bandied about and discussed and put down on paper.

9 But people continued to live in isolation from each other. I don't know

10 if I've been sufficiently clear.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Wubben?

12 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In that way, we have avoided all hypothetical

16 considerations.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's based on a considered opinion.

19 I thank you for your objection, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. WUBBEN:

21 Q. And, Mr. Dedic, there was no other main reason for the failure of

22 the subregion apart of that lack of communication?

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the witness has just said fierce attacks

24 as well. It's not open --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer the question.

1 MR. JONES: This is not open for him to ignore the answer he's

2 just given. He said people -- only on rare occasions did people manage to

3 pass out of the enclaves, so one reason is lack of regular access because

4 of fierce attacks. So if the witness has given that reason, it's not open

5 to Mr. Wubben to say so the only reason is lack of communication. That's

6 not the answer the witness has given. I don't think it's open to him to

7 ignore answers given by the witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: In that respect you are right. Perhaps you can

9 redraft your question, Mr. Wubben, and now ask the witness to give us a

10 comprehensive reason why, in his opinion and in his considered opinion,

11 the subregion idea or project did not materialise at all.

12 One reason, you said, there was fierce fighting; another reason,

13 you said, Mr. Dedic, was lack of adequate communication system in place.

14 What else could there have been? And you're not -- I want you to answer

15 that question based on proper considerations and not just suppositions.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these past few

17 questions have confused me. I wish to repeat, by your leave, because I've

18 been repeating this like a parrot all along: Every day the isolation of

19 these areas increased, so that even the three meetings I attended could

20 barely be held. I had to go along the river Jadar with this group of

21 people from Cerska, to my waist in water, by night, in darkness. We sat

22 there by candlelight. It was a time when it was practically impossible to

23 organise anything, let alone the subregion, to organise anything and to

24 link up these enclaves, which were literally cut off from each other.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that comprehensive enough to you, Mr. Wubben, or

1 for your purposes?

2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. I will proceed, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 And thank you, Mr. Dedic.

5 MR. WUBBEN:

6 Q. Mr. Dedic, how much is the distance between Srebrenica and Cerska,

7 in your estimation?

8 A. Do you mean the distance along the road used in peacetime or the

9 way that I used in 1993 to go to Srebrenica from Cerska?

10 Q. The distance as the crow flies, please.

11 A. As the crow flies, I don't know that. Along the road which is

12 there, it's 37 kilometres. That's the road used in peacetime, for normal

13 traffic. So it might be half that as the crow flies. But that's only in

14 my estimation; it need not be correct.

15 Q. In November 1992, it was possible to visit various meetings in

16 Cerska by representatives from Srebrenica, isn't it? "Yes" or "no," or "I

17 don't know," please.

18 A. Please, I don't know what you mean by "various meetings." What

19 are you referring to?

20 Q. Isn't it so that you had various meetings in November in which

21 also representatives from Srebrenica participated?

22 A. There were meetings. They weren't various meetings. As I said,

23 Mr. Salihovic would arrive from Srebrenica with two other people. They

24 did this on three occasions. And only in connection with issues

25 concerning the subregion. I don't know about any other meetings.

1 Q. Are you aware that the Srebrenica TO possessed Motorolas and Ham

2 radios at the time? I mean November and later 1992.

3 A. I'm not aware of this, because I arrived in Srebrenica only in

4 March 1993, after these areas had fallen. So I can neither deny nor

5 confirm your question.

6 Q. But you haven't heard of such a facility when you arrived in

7 Srebrenica?

8 A. When I arrived in Srebrenica, that was when I learnt that there

9 was a Ham radio station, yes. I knew where it was, because I tried to use

10 it to get some information about my son, who was in Belgrade at the time.

11 So I found this out only after I had arrived there, that there was a Ham

12 radio station in Srebrenica.

13 Q. And that Ham radio they had prior to your arrival or not?

14 A. I think I told you when I saw it. I know that previously

15 Mr. Salihovic had asked us to send Senahid Babic, a man from Cerska, to be

16 trained in Srebrenica -- or I apologise: To be trained in Konjevic Polje,

17 where he would be met by a young man to train him to try and set up these

18 communications. But whether it was there at the time, I'm not sure, but

19 they did request a man to be trained.

20 Q. So in fact it was also at that time that a Ham radio existed in

21 Srebrenica; isn't it?

22 A. We from Cerska did not establish any contact through this kind of

23 means of communication, so I cannot affirm with certainty that it existed

24 in that period.

25 Q. That's not my question, Mr. Dedic. I will repeat it, that with a

1 view to the contact regarding setting up a Ham radio linkage between

2 Konjevic Polje and Srebrenica, it appears to be that at that time, at

3 least in Srebrenica, there was a Ham radio?

4 A. Well, Mr. Wubben, I can say it appears to have been there, just as

5 you say. All I can say with certainty is that it did exist when I saw it.

6 And Mr. Salihovic had probably not have asked for a man to be trained had

7 it not been there. So I can assume it was, but I cannot assert it was

8 there if I didn't see it. Had I ever used that system of communication

9 from Cerska, then I could have confirmed this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you can move to something different,

11 Mr. Wubben.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

13 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Kadir Hamidovic several times arrived from

14 Glogova in Skugrici or Cerska?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many times?

17 A. I mentioned that before. This happened on two occasions.

18 Q. When was it? Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please.

19 A. He arrived in Cerska on two occasions. Once it was just before

20 Christmas, that is, before the 7th of January, 1993. And this was a time,

21 as I said before, just before the 7th of January, 1993.

22 Q. And the other time he arrived in Cerska or Skugrici?

23 A. This was the second time. The first time was before that. It was

24 in December. So his last arrival was just before Christmas, the 7th of

25 January, 1993.

1 Q. And for the record, December is December 1992.

2 A. Yes, yes, 1992.

3 Q. About Ejub Golic, you gave evidence that Ejub Golic and his armed

4 men managed to break through some Serb lines and link up with the

5 population of Glogova in the area of Glogova Mountain; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, I did mention that before. Ejub Golic, with a group of armed

7 men, was in the village of Cizmici, a part of the population of Glogova;

8 also with a group of armed men, was in the area of Mount Glogova. In this

9 period, he managed to break through some Serb lines and link up from

10 Cizmici with a large group of refugees from Glogova in Mount Glogova.

11 Q. And is it also true that Ejub Golic had sent people to other

12 places to ask for assistance?

13 A. Yes. Mr. Kadir Hamidovic told me about it when he arrived. He

14 said he had sent men to other places to ask for assistance, because he was

15 encircled and afraid that they were all in grave danger.

16 Q. What other places were these?

17 A. He didn't mention other places, but other armed groups in Cerska,

18 I think.

19 Q. But he came to Cerska, didn't he? Mr. Kadir Hamidovic came to

20 Cerska and told you that Ejub Golic had sent people to other places,

21 asking for assistance. What other places? Can you give names, please?

22 A. Let me repeat: Kadir Hamidovic arrived in Skugrici because his

23 sister was married there, where I lived. He came to see her. And I met

24 him along the way. And in my conversation with him, I heard that. Cerska

25 and Skugrici are very close to each other, as we saw on the map. And I

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1 learned from him that Mr. Golic had sent men to ask for assistance from

2 some other groups in Cerska.

3 Q. Did Semso Salihovic go to help with an armed group upon this

4 invitation by Kadir Hamidovic?

5 A. Yes. Semso Salihovic, after that, came to Skugrici, where he

6 asked for volunteers to go with him. And he went on the 7th of January,

7 1993, as I have already said, with a group of about 50 armed men.

8 Q. Is it true that you were at that time on Mount Tumace, if I

9 pronounce it correctly, Tumace, Mr. Dedic?

10 A. You pronounced it quite well, but it's not really a mountain; it's

11 an elevation. But yes, I was there.

12 Q. And where exactly is Tumace? I know -- I'm aware that you showed

13 various places on the map. Can we show you the map again?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please.

15 MR. WUBBEN: And place it on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's D814.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And usher, you need to concentrate on the top left

19 quarter of the map. Yes. And if the technicians could zoom in to where

20 Macesi and Konjevic Polje, and of course focus.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And there you see it, Tumace.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Wubben, Tumace is here, where

24 I'm pointing with a pointer now.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

1 Thank you, Madam Usher.

2 Q. So isn't it true that you and your armed men also helped out Semso

3 Salihovic because you, with those armed men, were on Mount Tumace, and if

4 there be any Serb attacks, you and the armed men could intervene on time

5 and you could not be caught by surprise, isn't it?

6 A. Yes, I was there with a group of armed men. In case there was an

7 attack anywhere, we would not be surprised and we would be able to help.

8 Q. And on the 7th of --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry.

11 Q. And on the 7th of January, it was snowy, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, and the snow was quite deep.

13 Q. And did that snow prevent Semso Salihovic and his armed group to

14 attack Kravica that day?

15 A. Mr. Wubben, Mr. Semso Salihovic, as I said before, did not attack

16 Kravica. He attacked a place called Siljkovici.

17 Q. And did Mr. Semso Salihovic -- did the snow prevent him to attack

18 Siljkovici?

19 A. Had it prevented him, he wouldn't have succeeded in attacking

20 them, so he obviously managed to get through somehow.

21 Q. So it didn't prevent him?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Wasn't a ZIS cannon brought in from that area? Is that true?

24 A. Yes. A ZIS was brought from that area.

25 Q. Did the fighters, the armed group from Cerska area make use of

1 that ZIS cannon afterwards?

2 A. It was brought to Cerska. Whether it was used, I can neither

3 confirm nor deny, because, as I already said on the first day of my

4 testimony, we did not have a trained crew to man such weapons, artillery

5 weapons and armour systems and so on. I'm not aware of this, so I can

6 neither confirm nor deny it.

7 Q. Had this cannon been transferred to another armed group, as far as

8 you know, another area?

9 A. I'm not aware of that.

10 Q. Is it correct that from the 7th of January, columns of civilians

11 went from Cerska to Kravica area?

12 A. Yes. From the 7th January on, for the following ten days or so,

13 columns of civilians, not only from Cerska but also from Skugrici and

14 Konjevic Polje, moved towards Kravica and back from Kravica. Because

15 there was snow, you could see the columns very well, because they stood

16 out in the white snow, and you could see them moving in both directions.

17 Q. And did they, as well as the fighters, return together with food

18 and supplies?

19 A. Yes. The civilians went there exclusively to find food. They did

20 find food. Some even brought back cattle feed. Others brought back

21 windows, doors, roof tiles, and other building materials, in order to try

22 to repair their heavily damaged houses, which were damaged due to

23 shelling. And it was winter. It was very cold. So they wanted to repair

24 their dwellings and make them habitable for the winter.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me make sure that you understood the question

2 that was put to you. You have given us an answer as regards the

3 civilians, but you were also asked whether fighters returned with food and

4 supplies. Did fighters also, like civilians, return with food and

5 supplies?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't hear the first

7 part of the question. Yes, yes, they did return with weapons and food

8 supplies, like civilians, because food is something that neither civilians

9 nor fighters had.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dedic.

11 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

12 MR. WUBBEN:

13 Q. So far in the last half an hour, we discussed movement of people

14 around the area from various places, and my question to you is that it

15 should then be possible, whenever there is a need to move around, whenever

16 there is a need to go from one area to another, then even given the fierce

17 attack or the fierce threats, that movement is indeed possible, isn't it?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour, that question is far too vague, I'm

20 afraid. The witness has been giving evidence about movement to Kravica,

21 which is, as we all know, I hope, is in Bratunac municipality. Earlier

22 there have been questions about Srebrenica municipality. I'm sure

23 Mr. Wubben doesn't mean to confuse the witness so that his answer appears

24 to apply to Srebrenica municipality, but referring to "various places" is

25 vague enough that it could later be stretched to include Srebrenica

1 municipality. If we could stick with the municipalities which have been

2 specifically mentioned. "Various places," how far does that extend;

3 Tuzla, Sarajevo?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. Basically, my problem with

5 your question, Mr. Wubben, is that I agree with Mr. Jones that it is

6 somewhat vague and somewhat confusing as well, or possibly confusing. You

7 say: "So far in the last half-hour we have discussed movement of people

8 around the area from various places, and my question to you is that it

9 should then be possible, whenever there is a need to move around, whenever

10 there is a need to go from one area to another, that even given the fierce

11 attack and fierce threats, that movement is indeed possible, isn't it?"

12 Basically, what Mr. Wubben is trying to convey to you is this: He

13 has given you various instances and asked you about various instances

14 where both civilians and fighters were moving from one place to another in

15 an area where there was fierce fighting and at times also deep snow, as

16 you put it. And it's being put to you now that the logical conclusion

17 that one could come to is that in spite of the negative conditions that

18 prevailed at the time, one could still move around if one wanted to.

19 What I require from Mr. Wubben is to make it clear which area he

20 is restricting his question to, because the witness, I suppose, can only

21 answer in relation to the area that he was familiar with and not beyond

22 that.

23 MR. WUBBEN: But he might also learn from other people --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Then ask him, okay. So divide the question into

25 two.

1 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The first question that you need to answer,

3 therefore, you need to limit to the area that you were familiar with,

4 first and foremost, and then Mr. Wubben will ask you a second question

5 afterwards.

6 Would you agree with the suggestion that is being put to you that

7 in spite of all these difficulties, in spite of the fierce fighting, in

8 spite of the negative conditions on the ground, on the terrain, one could

9 still move from one area to another, in your area? Would you agree to

10 that supposition?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, by your leave,

12 I'd rather say "had to," because the choice was between finding food, or

13 rather, just having the food that you had for a few days, or, on the other

14 hand, risking even your life to go out and get some food and survive for

15 longer.

16 As for the other part of the question, I don't know. I don't know

17 whether people from Srebrenica went, or from some other places. I saw

18 people who went and came back to the areas that I mentioned, the areas

19 where I lived. I don't know whether I've been clear.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. To me, you have been clear enough, but it's

21 not my question; it's Mr. Wubben's question. So I don't know if he is

22 happy with your answer or whether he wants to explore this area any

23 further.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

25 Q. What I mean: You gave evidence, Mr. Dedic, about going to Tumace

1 from Cerska, and backwards. You gave evidence of going to Konjevic Polje

2 from Cerska, and backwards. You gave evidence of going to Siljkovici and

3 backwards. You gave evidence about going to Cerska and Skugrici from

4 Glogova, and backwards. You gave evidence going from Srebrenica to

5 Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and backwards. You gave evidence of going through

6 Serb lines.

7 JUDGE ESER: I think the witness should be asked -- it wasn't

8 quite clear whether you asked him whether he went between all these

9 villages, to all these places, or whether other people also have been able

10 to move between these places which you had mentioned.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I will add a further clarification.

12 Q. You gave evidence about the movement between those places, going

13 and backwards, by people, and you confirmed that these people were able to

14 travel between those places, even given those dreadful circumstances. Not

15 by yourself, but you witnessed it.

16 Now, have there been other movements that you are aware of by

17 persons in other areas, from November 1992?

18 A. Mr. Wubben, I would appreciate it if you would put short questions

19 to me. Then it's easier for me to answer. This way, you put several

20 questions to me in one, and I'm not in a position to follow all of it. So

21 could you please put one question at a time to me and tell me precisely

22 what it is that you want me to say so that I could answer properly. This

23 way, you confuse me, and perhaps I don't give you the right kind of

24 answer, and then again we just waste time.

25 Q. Mr. Dedic, let me put, then, a short question.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you go straight to examples, instances. I'll

2 just invent two names, for example. Whether he is aware of any traffic of

3 persons, movements of persons, from, for example, Drinjaca to Lijesanj, or

4 from Lijesanj to Cerska or Cajici, or something like that. Because

5 otherwise, it's too vast. I mean, it's --

6 MR. WUBBEN: It's a vast area, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's also -- I mean, he will have to exercise a lot

8 of mental fatigue to try and remember all the possibilities that there

9 could be.

10 MR. WUBBEN:

11 Q. Now, I gave you, Mr. Dedic -- if I may continue, Your Honour.

12 I gave you an overview of travelling by people around various

13 areas by naming places, and I will repeat, and you can confirm whether it

14 was possible or not, as you witnessed.

15 And let's take the time from November 1992 up to January 1993.

16 Did you witness that someone was able to travel from Cerska to Tumace

17 elevation? Is that correct?

18 A. I don't know whether some people did, but I came to Tumace on the

19 7th of January with a group of people.

20 Q. So the answer is yes.

21 A. I, with a group of people, came there. So, yes.

22 Q. You witnessed that it was possible to travel to Siljkovici from

23 Konjevic Polje and Cerska; is that correct?

24 A. Travelling from Cerska via Konjevic Polje to Siljkovici was

25 possible, because the group I mentioned did arrive there. So on the basis

1 of that, it was possible, in very difficult conditions, but it was done.

2 Q. Yes. Mr. Dedic, I understand that it was difficult, but the

3 question is very plain and clear, I think: It was possible. Then you can

4 -- then it will be sufficient to answer it by "yes," if you can.

5 And also backwards from Siljkovici to Cerska and Konjevic Polje;

6 is that true?

7 A. Yes. Please. People left Cerska, went to Siljkovici, and came

8 back to Cerska from Siljkovici. Of course, not everybody. Some got

9 killed. But the survivors came back.

10 Q. Thank you. That was also a yes, and a yes will do.

11 MR. JONES: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I know what you're going to say. If he wants to

13 explain, obviously he needs to explain.

14 MR. JONES: It's not simply that. If Mr. Wubben is saying is it

15 possible to travel back and forth for people, and people get killed, and

16 obviously it's not possible because they've been killed and they don't

17 return, then that's part of the relevant answer to the question. Just to

18 ignore the dead people and say, well, for those who survived, it was

19 possible. And I don't think one can say it's simply yes or no. If people

20 are in extremis crawling through the snow to get back, that's surely

21 relevant.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: These are not instances where one could board a bus

23 or a taxi and go from one place to another. I mean, we're talking of

24 difficult circumstances and difficult terrain, in a time of conflict,

25 armed conflict. I mean, we found it difficult sometimes to travel

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1 ourselves during the on-site visit in certain areas, in peacetime, but

2 with armoured cars.

3 MR. WUBBEN:

4 Q. In addition, it was also possible to travel from Cerska to

5 Glogova, or to be specific, from Glogova to Cerska, isn't it?

6 A. No. It was not possible to travel. I've mentioned to you that

7 one single man that I know of who managed to go there and come back alive.

8 Mr. Wubben, travelling, in my books, means that we pack our things, go at

9 leisure, that we're sure that we can come back safely. That's what travel

10 means.

11 Q. What I mean is to make the journey, to make the trip, with a

12 certain aim. So if we can include that in your information, if it is

13 possible to make the trip to a certain area. Then that should inform the

14 Trial Chamber. The additional -- sorry.

15 A. Mr. Wubben, I would not say that this is a proper road, because

16 roads that existed before the war could not be used. So people went

17 through the wild, if I can put it that way. They went through places

18 where animals moved around otherwise. These are not proper roads for

19 communication, because not a single road that existed from before could

20 have been used.

21 Q. And Mr. Kadir Hamidovic was able to make that trip in December and

22 January, isn't it?

23 A. Yes. Yes. And a shell would fall into a group of 20 people, and

24 some would survive and others would get killed. There are some people who

25 went to Tuzla, hundreds of kilometres, and not everybody was killed. Some

1 managed to survive. So there is not a single case that could prove that

2 there was proper communication there and that it was possible to

3 communicate. That's my opinion.

4 Q. And people were also able to travel to Tuzla; is that your

5 testimony, at the time?

6 A. Not at that time. Even earlier and sometimes later, some people

7 from Cerska, Konjevic Polje, or Srebrenica, in wartime, somehow managed to

8 reach Tuzla alive, although it's a much longer way, but there are some who

9 survived the trip, whereas there were many others who, unfortunately, did

10 not.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, let's -- I mean, go ahead as much as you

12 like, Mr. Wubben, but in reality, the truth of the situation is what the

13 witness has told us, that the normal roads and streets could not be used,

14 but one could find his way through the woods, through the forests, across

15 rivers. If one, I suppose, wanted to go to Belgrade and walk it all the

16 way, one could still do it. So at the end of the day, it's a question of

17 how you manage to find your way and whether you would be lucky in getting

18 there at the end of the day.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I was addressing --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I mean, I'm not stopping you. Please

21 don't misunderstand me. But in reality, I think you are labouring on a

22 point that it is pretty much laboured sufficiently already. I mean, the

23 witness is telling you when people wanted to go to Kravica to attack,

24 well, of course we got there. When people wanted to go to Cerkovici

25 [phoen], of course we got there. When people -- not we. I'm saying

1 whoever needed to go there and wanted to go there, went there.

2 MR. JONES: And many died and never came back.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And many died in the process. Many got there, but

4 never made it back as well, even though they were still alive after the

5 fighting. So this is the truth of the -- the unfortunate truth of the

6 whole situation.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: If you ask, could you cross from Cerska to

9 Srebrenica, or could you even walk through Serb-occupied territory, if you

10 were lucky and you used your brains and you have got luck on your side,

11 yes, of course you can do it. And you know the way, of course, which is

12 the most important thing.

13 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

14 MR. WUBBEN: And in addition -- thank you, Your Honour, for this

15 clarification.

16 Q. In addition, Mr. Dedic, when it comes to casualties and killings

17 and all these threats on the way during such a trip, it is so that the

18 armed units, the armed men, or the fighters familiar with the area has a

19 greater chance to survive than untrained civilians, isn't it?

20 A. Sir, could you please put a specific question to me? You've given

21 me a description -- actually, I don't see what I could say to that. Could

22 you please put a concrete question to me.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the question is clear enough, Mr. Dedic. If

24 Mr. Wubben wants any assistance, I will assist him. But otherwise, I

25 think it's clear enough. You are being asked to make a comparison with

1 those people who were armed and familiar with the area, with the terrain,

2 and those civilians who were not familiar with the terrain, and he is

3 asking you whether you would agree that those who were armed and familiar

4 with the terrain had a better chance to survive than those civilians who

5 were not armed and were not familiar with the terrain. This is a simple

6 question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes. It was easier. It

8 was easier, to my mind, for civilians to go, because they went behind

9 armed men, whereas the largest number of civilians, people who went to

10 Kravica and back, went when the Serb forces were repelled from Kravica.

11 They took the road from Konjevic Polje to Kravica. And then, after the

12 Serb forces were repelled from Kravica, they were quite far away from

13 Kravica.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: A moment, please, Your Honour.

16 Q. What I meant was not the chance to get killed when it comes to

17 columns of civilians and fighters accompanying them, but what I mean is

18 when fighters or civilians would like to move within the area, given the

19 threats and the possible attacks, that the fighters, knowing the area and

20 having the assistance, have less chance to get killed than civilians who

21 are untrained or do not know the area; is that correct?

22 MR. JONES: The assistance of who?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's clear enough, Mr. Jones. Leave it.

24 Let him answer the question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not correct that the

1 civilians were not familiar with the area. All those civilians live in

2 the area and they knew the area as well as the fighters did, except that

3 some of these people who were military-able had a rifle. However, say his

4 wife knew equally well where Kravica was, just like her husband did,

5 except she didn't have a rifle and she was not in the armed group. So

6 civilians were very familiar with the area, because they lived there for

7 years - in the area, that is - so they knew it very well.

8 MR. WUBBEN:

9 Q. Isn't it true that some fighters had been trained in the army, in

10 the JNA army, the compulsory training? Isn't that true?

11 A. I don't know whether all members of these groups that we referred

12 to earlier on had done their military service in the JNA, because there

13 were some young people. So I'm not sure from that point of view that

14 everybody had done their military service. As for the level of training,

15 how trained people were, I cannot be the judge of that.

16 Q. Let's move to another issue. Are you aware that there was a

17 prison in Cerska, if so, at the time, I mean, by the end -- the second

18 half of 1992/beginning 1993?

19 A. I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand. What are you asking me

20 about? What -- did what exist in Cerska? I didn't hear a word. Was

21 there what?

22 Q. Is the translation not functioning?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine that there is a problem with

24 interpretation, and I see Ms. Vidovic confirming that. So you need to

25 repeat your question, please, Mr. Wubben.

1 MR. WUBBEN: I will, thank you.

2 Q. Was there at the time a prison in Cerska, if so?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: In November 1992 or thereabouts.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. From October until the end or -- are you aware of that?

6 A. I'm not aware of the existence of any kind of prison in Cerska.

7 Q. Are you aware of any building used as a detention centre or

8 occasionally used as such?

9 A. Are you again referring to the area of Cerska?

10 Q. Yes. Yes.

11 A. All the buildings that I knew in Cerska were used exclusively for

12 housing the population, for the accommodation of people who lived there

13 and for the accommodation of a large number of refugees who were there.

14 Warehouses, apartments of teachers, the elementary school, I'm only aware

15 of the premises where people lived.

16 Q. Are you aware of any Serb prisoners being held somewhere in Cerska

17 or the neighbourhood?

18 A. No, I'm not aware of any such fact.

19 Q. A couple of days ago, you were shown a report from a chief of the

20 SJB, Mr. Radomir Bijelanovic. Are you familiar with that name?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Radomir, Rade, Bijelanovic. I know the name.

22 Q. What was his function at the time?

23 A. What time are you referring to specifically? What period of time?

24 Q. The end of January. Sorry. The end of 1992, January 1993.

25 A. As for his exact position at that time, I don't know. I don't

1 know what he did at that time.

2 Q. Was he, let's say, in the beginning of 1993, involved in exchange

3 of Serb prisoners for Muslims? Are you aware of that?

4 A. I don't know what kind of exchange you are referring to. I don't

5 know anything about that.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. WUBBEN: And, Your Honour --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient, it's convenient for you.

9 MR. WUBBEN: It's convenient.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 30-minute break starting from now.

11 Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. May I ask the usher to show

16 the witness Exhibit D825.

17 Your Honours, that's my last exhibit for today to discuss.

18 Q. Mr. Dedic, you're shown a document, a combat order by the Drina

19 Corps command, and shown to you in an earlier stage by the Defence. Do

20 you have that in front of you, Mr. Dedic, that document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The document, in paragraph 2, is read as being the last sentence,

23 and I quote: "Be in a state of readiness for defence immediately, and for

24 attack by 0600 hours on the 24th of January, 1993."

25 Did you follow?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When we move to the following page, under paragraph 7, the third

3 line, and it might be, in English, second line: "Establish communications

4 by 0530 hours on the 24th of January, 1993."

5 Did you follow?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Doesn't that mean, as I put it to you also yesterday, that it

8 appears to be that the Drina Corps tried to prevent any interception of

9 radio communication prior to the attack?

10 A. What the Drina Corps wanted to do with this, I don't know, and I

11 wouldn't wish to comment on it. That's up to the person who drew up this

12 document.

13 Q. But I asked you a question. I asked you: Isn't it so that the

14 Drina Corps in this way tried to prevent any interception from the enemy

15 prior to the attack?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, if he tells you yes or if he tells you

17 no, it is not going to change anything. This is a submission that you

18 will make later on. Whatever the witness is going to answer to that

19 question is not going to change the reality of the situation. Why would

20 one first say we will start with the attack at 6.00 or be prepared to

21 start the attack at 6.00, establish connections at 5.30, and before that,

22 as we saw yesterday in some document - I don't know if it's this one or

23 another one - the communication was to be by courier? I mean, one draws

24 one's conclusion. But --

25 MR. WUBBEN: That's why I asked the witness.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the witness is not going to provide you

2 with an answer. He gave you the only answer that any witness would give

3 you. I mean, whoever gave that order knows best.

4 MR. WUBBEN: I will proceed on this document, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

6 MR. WUBBEN:

7 Q. In paragraph 1, on the first page, Witness, I will quote the first

8 part of it: "In counter-offensive operations the enemy has managed to

9 take part of the territory that had been controlled by Corps units and has

10 inflicted serious losses on our units (the sector of Sasa, Kravica, Mount

11 Glogova, Skelani, Setihovo - the general Rudo sector)."

12 My question to you is: You earlier stated that the content of

13 this document is correct, that what's mentioned in this order in the

14 connection of the counter-offensives, that it is correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes. The part of the document that mentions our forces, that is,

16 the Muslim forces, managing to take territories in counter-offensive

17 operations, that is, Kravica and Mount Glogova, that is correct, yes.

18 That's what I know.

19 Q. So these counter-offensive operations have been quite successful,

20 isn't it?

21 A. Whether they were successful or not, that's a very broad question.

22 But we did manage to push back the Serb forces from Kravica, and according

23 to what I was told by the man we often mentioned from Glogova Planina, the

24 -- well, as for the other areas mentioned here, I don't know what

25 happened there.

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1 Q. But as far as the enemy, as quoted, has managed to take part of

2 the -- parts of it, the operation was quite successful, isn't it?

3 A. Mr. Wubben, I wish to repeat: It is only the area of Kravica,

4 which we have often mentioned, and the area of Mount Glogova, where

5 Mr. Golic's armed forces managed to link up, that one can say that the

6 counter-offensive was successful.

7 Q. Those counter-offensives, as far as you know and are aware of

8 being successful, those counter-offensives must have been the result of

9 combined planning and communication from the Muslim forces involved; isn't

10 that true?

11 A. I wish to mention once again that I don't remember anyone ever

12 planning anything in connection with the activities of the Muslim forces.

13 What happened was the collecting of volunteers. But I never saw any

14 plans, nor do I know anyone who drew up any kind of plan in connection

15 with counter-offensive operations by our forces.

16 Q. I put it to you that these are true facts as I will explain:

17 Isn't it also true that these counter-offensive operations by Muslim

18 forces were the outcome of a unified joint command?

19 A. Mr. Wubben, that's your standpoint. My standpoint is well known.

20 I've reiterated it more than once. The participation of the forces from

21 Skugrici and Cerska is all I know about. I don't have any information

22 about any other forces, how many there were and so on.

23 Q. Then I also will put it to you that communicating was possible via

24 couriers and radio communication throughout the subregion area. Do you

25 agree?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And do these counter-offensive operations and being successful

3 also mean that your reason for the subregion not functioning had been

4 removed?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: First, the witness hasn't accepted that these

7 operations were successful. He was asked about that and he said that

8 wasn't something which he could affirm. So Mr. Wubben can put it to the

9 witness again if he wants, they were successful, but the witness has

10 answered that. And for the rest of it, I really don't see that a clear

11 question is emerging from what Mr. Wubben was saying. The witness has

12 asked and we've asked for clear questions to be put to the witness and

13 that's very far it from it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones' remark that the witness has not conceded

15 to you, Mr. Wubben, that these counter-offensives were successful is a

16 correct observation. And then therefore I would suggest that you rephrase

17 your question, putting it to the witness in conformity with what he has

18 already stated in regard to your suggestion.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I should then go back to the transcript.

20 In my opinion, he admitted at least so far as he knows about Kravica and

21 Mount Glogova, that these operations have been successful. I have to

22 check that in the transcript.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He said -- when you asked him -- it's line 4 on page

24 36, at least on mine, because sometimes I get the impression that it

25 varies from monitor to monitor. "So these counter-offensive operations

1 have been quite successful, isn't it?" That's what you asked him. And he

2 said: "Whether they were successful or not, that's a very broad question.

3 But we did manage to push back the Serb forces from Kravica, and according

4 to what I was told by the man we often mentioned from Glogova Planina --

5 well, as for the other areas mentioned there, I don't know what happened

6 there."

7 MR. WUBBEN: Further, Your Honour, I put the question --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And then you asked: "But as far as the enemy,

9 as quoted, has managed to take part of it, the operation was quite

10 successful, isn't it?" "Mr. Wubben, I wish to repeat, it's only the area

11 of Kravica, which we have often mentioned, and the area of Mount Glogova,

12 where Mr. Golic's armed forces managed to link up, that one can say the

13 counter-offensive was successful."

14 MR. JONES: It's one specific counter-offensive.

15 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour. It's not one specific --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's two. Glogova, Mount Glogova, and Kravica.

17 MR. JONES: So the question can be confined to that specific

18 counter-offensive, and do those counter-offensives, that success, does

19 that show that the subregion was functioning?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree 100 per cent. I mean, you can split or

21 rephrase your question, provided -- whichever way you like, provided it

22 reflects the answer that the witness has given you before to the question

23 of whether he considers -- because you didn't ask him about the

24 counterattacks in Kravica and Mount Glogova only. The document 825

25 mentions Sasa, mentions five or six places; Skelani, Setihovo and the

1 general Rudo sector, plus Sasa. So if you want, you can divide the

2 question into two and try to see what information the witness can give

3 you, keeping in mind that he's only given you a direct answer with regard

4 to two counterattacks and not five, one of which seems to be the general

5 Rudo sector.

6 MR. WUBBEN:

7 Q. Mr. Dedic, with a view to the successful counter-offensives

8 regarding Kravica and Glogova, Mount Glogova, doesn't that mean that your

9 reason for the subregion not functioning has been removed?

10 A. No. I never said that was one of the reasons, because I wish to

11 state that both these areas were very quickly retaken by the Serb forces.

12 This was only a brief period in which the Muslim forces controlled these

13 areas.

14 Q. And if the other sectors mentioned in paragraph 1 of the combat

15 order are also being successful indeed, doesn't that also mean that your

16 reason for the subregion not functioning had been removed?

17 A. I couldn't give you a direct answer to that question. I know, for

18 example, that Rudo is somewhere in Eastern Bosnia and has nothing to do

19 with this area. So I couldn't respond to that question. The only Rudo I

20 know is a small place far away from Srebrenica, somewhere in Eastern

21 Bosnia, in the direction of Visegrad or Cajnice or thereabouts.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.

23 Thank you, Witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

25 Is there re-examination, Ms. Vidovic?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would the usher please

5 show the witness P581 again.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dedic, in your testimony of yesterday, you

7 responded to a number of questions put to you by the Prosecutor concerning

8 your request to be admitted to active military service in the Army of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina and to have a rank conferred upon you. You have

10 the document before you. Please take a look at it and tell me, first of

11 all, whether or not you agree that this is a form which is the same for

12 all members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

13 regardless of the area they come from, if you're aware of this.

14 A. Yes. I have seen a certain number of forms in the possession of

15 members of other groups from Tuzla. I've seen this form, and this, as far

16 as I can tell, is identical, this form was identical everywhere. There

17 was no other kind of form.

18 Q. Thank you. Will you please now see whether I have correctly read

19 out the title: "Request for joining the active military service of the

20 Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and promotion to rank."

21 Have I read this out correctly?

22 A. Yes, you have.

23 Q. Do you agree that this document, on the 20th of February, 1994,

24 was only an application to be received into the active military service of

25 the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

1 A. Yes. It was only an application, nothing more.

2 Q. Is it correct, then, that until the 20th of February in 1994, at

3 least, you had not joined the active military service of the Army of the

4 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that you are only now requesting to

5 join it; is this correct?

6 A. Yes, this is correct. I was received into active military service

7 in September 1997, or 1998, I'm not quite sure. I'm sure it's either the

8 September of 1997 or 1998.

9 Q. Very well. Please take a look at number 40. What does it say

10 under number 40? And take a good look, please. Do you agree that it says

11 "Date of putting oneself at the disposal of the armed forces of the

12 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, state the organ to which you

13 reported." Is this what it says here?

14 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's possible that the

16 English translation contains something else, but this is what I'm reading

17 out in the original.

18 Q. Is this correct, Witness?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What you filled in next to this, it says: "On the 5th of April,

21 1992," does this mean that it was then that you simply put yourself at the

22 disposal of someone?

23 A. Yes. And I wish to say again that this was a small group of

24 people trying to work out what to do to avoid war.

25 Q. Thank you. Now look at 41, please. Yesterday, testifying about

1 this part, you explained, more than once, what the armed groups looked

2 like in your area as of the 15th of April, 1992. I won't go into it

3 again. Please don't repeat your explanation, so as to avoid wasting time.

4 But I will ask you the following:

5 The situation on the ground as of the 6th of April and onwards,

6 throughout 1992, was this at that point of time the Army of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina or were they simply armed groups of the people of Cerska

8 offering spontaneous resistance to the enemy?

9 A. Yes. Although I've repeated it more than once, I wish to repeat

10 again: These were smaller or larger armed groups of the population, of

11 people who lived locally. There were no military formations in that area

12 in the spring and summer of 1992 up until the fall of these areas.

13 Q. The main point of my question was whether these groups were

14 offering resistance spontaneously, whether they were self-organised or

15 whether they were acting under orders as part of larger formations.

16 A. No, they never acted under orders. All their activities were

17 exclusively voluntary and they were never linked up into some kind of

18 chain of command.

19 Q. And to clarify: Throughout 1992 until the fall of Cerska, did you

20 have any contact with the units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

21 did you get any kind of help or support from them?

22 A. No, never. All the assistance I mentioned earlier was among the

23 local groups acting in the area of Konjevic Polje and Cerska.

24 Q. Did you receive any orders in the Cerska area from any higher

25 commands of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

1 A. I'm not aware of any such thing. Never did I see any such order

2 with my own eyes.

3 Q. Did you write reports? You explained that you were in Skugrici as

4 part of one such group. Did you send reports from this group in Skugrici

5 to anyone until the fall of Cerska?

6 A. No, I don't remember ever writing reports or sending them to

7 anyone, because nobody ever requested any kind of report. Everything that

8 happened, happened within that armed group.

9 Q. Thank you. Could you now please look at the last page of this

10 document, where it says: "Opinion and proposal of the commander of the

11 8th Operative Group Srebrenica." And I'm going to read out a sentence to

12 you, where the commander says: "Ejub Dedic was engaged in purchasing and

13 reselling armament and ammunition. He was organising people in the region

14 of Skugrici, Vlasenica, and distinguished himself as an organiser of

15 village guards."

16 Please, yesterday you clarified this fact sufficiently about

17 weapons. The point of my question is the following: Do you see this

18 here? In his alleged opinion and proposal, he says: "He was organising

19 people in the region of Skugrici, Vlasenica, and distinguished himself as

20 an organiser of village guards."

21 Now, please, what it says here, what I read out to you, does it

22 correspond to the facts that you talked about yourself, that you said that

23 you originally entered into the form that was given to you by the official

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina before this person insisted that you correct the

25 information entered?

1 A. Yes. I am aware of this information with organised groups.

2 However, at the explicit insistence of this person, he asked for the

3 entries to be made as they are.

4 Q. All right. And in relation to that: This man who gave you the

5 form, this request to join active military service, was he an authorised

6 official? Was this a person who was authorised to work with these forms

7 or questionnaires, to the best of your knowledge?

8 A. To the best of my knowledge, he was not authorised, probably,

9 because he was carrying a lot of these papers around and he was handing

10 them out to everyone, and he was walking by us and giving out these forms.

11 Q. The point of my question is the following: He was a person who

12 worked with these papers, and did you actually give him correct

13 information about what you did in Cerska and what this unit of yours was

14 like?

15 A. I wrote the first version correctly. I wrote correctly about

16 everything that happened. However, later on, he looked at that document

17 and he did not accept that part.

18 Q. Did he actually suggest to you what you were supposed to write?

19 A. Yes, absolutely. He said that it couldn't be put that way, the

20 way you put it, although it is probably so. It has to be written this

21 other way.

22 I'm sorry, Your Honours, but I told you yesterday that there were

23 different names of units that were written from some kind of municipal

24 staff, district staff, whatever, different levels, and this created

25 confusion in my mind too. I didn't know what this was all about.

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1 Q. Mr. Dedic, as you were testifying yesterday, you said many times

2 on the ground there were armed groups. Please, could you explain to the

3 Trial Chamber -- can you explain to the Trial Chamber whether it is

4 correct that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina actually retroactively

5 recognised the self-organised armed groups that were resisting the enemy

6 as members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from its inception onwards?

7 Is that correct? Do you know whether the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did

8 that retroactively and considerably later?

9 A. Yes. I'm fully aware of that fact.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Wubben.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I trust that the witness is not, as such, a legal

12 expert who, without any further explanation, will have given that answer,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You can make that submission later on. I understand

15 what you mean. Thank you.

16 Yes, Ms. Vidovic, please go ahead.

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, that's not a matter for legal expertise.

18 It's a matter of factual knowledge of the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but let's avoid submissions, Mr. Jones, on

20 this. He's given an answer and it will be valued at face value, his

21 testimony.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, please, do you know that people from your own

24 environment, including yourself, subsequently proved that they belonged to

25 some kind of armed groups in order to get the status of an army member?

1 A. Yes, I am very well aware of that. Some people, even two or three

2 years after they went to the liberated territory of Tuzla, proved this

3 through administrative procedures.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please pause before the witness

5 finishes his answer. Thank you. Interpreter's note.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do you have to be a legal expert in order to know this or have you

8 seen this with your own eyes and heard this through your own ears?

9 A. I know that very well. I was head of -- Chief of Staff of the

10 243rd Brigade. When I moved on to the free territory, there were many

11 people there who belonged to different groups in the territory of the

12 municipality of Srebrenica. So Vlasenica, Konjevic Polje, et cetera, and

13 I know very well, for a fact, that many members of this brigade went to

14 municipal courts and, through administrative procedures, proved that they

15 were members of certain armed groups that resisted the enemy.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This 243rd Brigade has shown up now

17 when I thought we had buried it yesterday. So what's this 243rd Brigade,

18 Mr. Dedic? Were you Chief of Staff of the 243rd or 284th Brigade? Or

19 were you Chief of Staff of both?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Srebrenica, we discussed that

21 yesterday, I was Chief of Staff of the 284th East Bosnian Light Brigade,

22 on paper, formally. But after the fall of Srebrenica and after I moved to

23 the free territory of the Tuzla canton -- I'm sorry. Certain groups of

24 people that managed to get on to the free territory, on the 25th of

25 September, 1995, a municipal 243rd Brigade was established, and I was its

1 Chief of Staff until the end of the war. So that brigade was established

2 later.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you to the witness. I did not pay attention to that because

5 it is not part of the indictment. Thank you for this explanation.

6 Now I'm going to ask you something else. When the Prosecutor put

7 questions to you yesterday, he insisted on a particular fact, suggesting

8 to you several times that you were a member of the Army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the 15th of April 1992.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in time,

11 I would like to ask the usher to show the witness yet another document,

12 and I'm asking the witness to keep the document he has now, because we

13 will need it in order to make comparisons. P277 is what I ask for. Also,

14 I would like to ask the usher to help us out to give the witness P279 at

15 the same time, so that we could save time.

16 Your Honour, this is a decree with the force of law of the armed

17 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Witness, I'm going to quote Article 1 to you here, and part of

19 Article 2, where it says: "This decree shall regulate the organisation of

20 the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, hereinafter

21 referred to as the Republic, as the joint armed force of all citizens,

22 peoples of the Republic, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats, as well as members of

23 other groups living in the Republic and commanding and controlling all

24 armed forces of the Republic."

25 Article 2: "The armed forces of the Republic shall consist of the

1 Army of the Republic, hereinafter referred to as the army. In case of

2 war, the armed forces, apart from the army, shall also consist of police

3 forces and armed units which are together put under the single command of

4 the armed forces of the Republic.

5 "The armed units from point 1 of this decree are workers

6 performing security jobs in companies as well as other legal bodies,

7 customs workers and other frontier service officers."

8 Could you please look at the date, the 20th of May, 1992. Please,

9 Witness, do you know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina itself, or

10 rather, the armed forces were established only on the 20th of May, 1992?

11 A. I was not aware of that fact until now.

12 Q. All right. In relation to that, I wish to ask you the following:

13 Is it possible that you became a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14 before it was even established?

15 A. Absolutely not. We carried out a self-organisation when we were

16 threatened. That was what it was like.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please now look at the other document, P279.

18 This is a decision on the establishment of corps of the Army of the

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and their zones of responsibility and

20 re-subordination. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 2,

21 where the 2nd Corps is referred to in Tuzla. Let's not waste time reading

22 all these municipalities. Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you look at this part pertaining to the 2nd Corps, do you

25 agree that it says Vlasenica?

1 A. Yes, municipalities are listed: Ugljevik, Vlasenica, Zvornik,

2 Zivinice. Is that what you're talking about?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes, I see that.

5 Q. Please look at the other page of this document. Just have a look

6 at its date, in the last part of the document, actually.

7 A. The 18th of August, 1992.

8 Q. Please, do you agree that according to this document, Vlasenica

9 joined the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina only on the 18th of

10 August, 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And my question in relation to this is: Was it possible for you

13 to be a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the municipal

14 forces of Vlasenica, whatever they were, groups, units, whatever, before

15 they themselves joined the corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Of course it was not possible.

17 Q. Thank you. In relation to this, I'm going to ask you something

18 else. You saw that the area of Vlasenica, according to this last

19 document, was placed under the 2nd Corps on the 18th of August, 1992.

20 Please, from then, on all the way up to the fall of Cerska in March 1993,

21 did you ever receive orders or any kind of documents from Tuzla, until the

22 fall of Cerska?

23 A. No. I do not recall a single document of this kind that arrived

24 in the area of Cerska until the fall of Cerska.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note again: Could counsel please

1 pause before the end of the answer. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

3 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I didn't mind -- I didn't object to the

4 former question. When it comes to an area that is totally new and not

5 covered by the cross, it deems to be finalised by that last question, and

6 I don't think that I touched this issue.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's related to the whole issue as to whether this

8 gentleman could be at any time -- or he himself considered himself to have

9 been at any time truly a member of the armed forces of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina on the 5th of or 6th of April, if I remember well, or on the

11 16th or 15th, which are mentioned later. I think it is related, so --

12 MR. WUBBEN: But I didn't touch the issue. Okay. I accept.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that you didn't touch the issue, but it is

14 related. She is trying to make a point and she is trying to pursue it in

15 a complete manner.

16 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,

18 Your Honour.

19 Could the witness please be shown document 582 again, please. So

20 please keep 581 and I would like P582 to be shown to the witness again.

21 We will require both in order to compare them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will need the Serbo-Croat. Is that

23 correct, Madam Vidovic? What you need to do is to put, like we did

24 yesterday, basically. But let's hear the question first, and the witness

25 can follow on the -- all right. Okay. Go ahead. That you can give to

1 the witness and we can have the English version. It doesn't contain any

2 signatures or anything.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, can you see this? It says "Proposal for promotion to the

5 rank of major." And allegedly this is a document that was signed by Sabic

6 Vejiz and Naser Oric. First of all, before I move on to the language of

7 the document that you mentioned briefly yesterday, please look at number

8 10, where it says -- you have the date of joining the Army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 A. Yes, I found that.

11 Q. Underneath, it says: "Duties performed so far." And it says:

12 "Deputy company commander" and then "company commander." According to

13 what you know in terms of the organisation of the military, do companies

14 ever have commanders called komandant?

15 A. No. They have commanders called komandir. Battalion is the

16 lowest ranking unit in the army that has a commander that is called a

17 komandant.

18 Q. Thank you. Look at what it says underneath, please. "Nac,"

19 commander of company. And then "nacc.sekr." It's probably chief of

20 Defence Secretariat in the detachment. In relation to this, I'm going to

21 ask you the following. Please, is it correct that in the structures of

22 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war, during the war, and after

23 the war, the Secretariats of Defence, according to what you know, were

24 always bodies of a certain government, district, and so on?

25 A. Yes, I'm aware of that fact. Because the Secretariat of Defence

1 existed in Vlasenica before the war, and this formulation, chief of

2 Defence Secretariat in the Cer Detachment is unclear, to say the least.

3 The two really cannot mix.

4 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, what is a detachment?

5 A. A detachment is a formation, as far as I know, a military

6 formation, a military unit, whose composition changes. It does not have

7 an exact number of personnel, like certain types of battalions, regiments,

8 brigades, and so on. So its composition changes in terms of its personnel

9 levels and number of weaponry.

10 Q. Is it big?

11 A. Yes, it is big.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note for the third time: Could

13 the speakers please be slowed down.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are making the life of the interpreters

15 difficult. Please. I understand, because I can see that they are finding

16 it difficult to follow.

17 So, Mr. Dedic, please, when Madam Vidovic puts a question to you,

18 allow a brief interval of time before you start giving your answer.

19 And the same applies to you, Madam Vidovic. Let the

20 interpreters --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- finish with the interpretation before you put

23 your next question, please. Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. To your knowledge, was there any Defence Secretariat at the Cerska

1 detachment?

2 A. In Cerska.

3 Q. No, not in Cerska. In the Cerani Detachment.

4 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.

5 Q. Now please look at the text on the following page, where it gives

6 reasons, the reasons are stated. Mr. Dedic, these words "promotion" and

7 then the reasons given for the proposal, look at the last sentence, for

8 example, "exemplary officer, selfless loyalty." Do you agree that these

9 words are in the Ekavica language, which is spoken in Serbia?

10 A. Yes, I agree. I am a teacher, and the words you have read out are

11 in the Ekavica dialect, which is used exclusively in the Republic of

12 Serbia.

13 Q. I'll ask you the following now: Have you heard a single Muslim in

14 Podrinje in the Drina area speaking in the Ekavica language, especially

15 Oric or Vejiz Sabic?

16 A. No, I never heard a single Muslim in the Podrinje area using the

17 Ekavica dialect.

18 Q. Please keep this document before you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher please now show the

20 witness P584. It was shown to the witness yesterday.

21 Q. Witness, this is allegedly a document issued by the municipal

22 staff of Srebrenica in August 1992. You were shown a small excerpt by the

23 Prosecutor on page 2. This is a document issued by the Vlasenica

24 municipal staff of the 9th of August, 1992. Please take a better look at

25 this whole document. Look at the heading. Look at what it says under A:

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1 "To war duties in the Municipal Staff of Vlasenica." The Chief of Staff

2 is appointed, Adil Omerovic completed the Maritime Academy and worked

3 illegally in the BiH Patriotic League, and so on. Then it says:

4 Assistant Commander for Intelligence Affairs, Mujo Bajramovic; Assistant

5 Commander for Morale Education, Birco Atif [as interpreted]; and then

6 Kutlovac Ismet for the medical corps, finished medical school. Then you

7 have Haris Susic, who completed the defence training.

8 Look at the names. My question stems from something you testified

9 about. Did I understand you correctly to say that there were no doctors

10 in Cerska during the war?

11 A. Yes, that's correct. From the beginning of the war until the fall

12 of Cerska, there was not a single medical doctor there.

13 Q. Well, now please look at the names of these people here who are

14 being appointed to war duties, and this is signed by Mr. Hodzic,

15 allegedly. From the 9th of August, 1992, did all or some of these people

16 stay in the Cerska area until its fall? Were they there? Take a good

17 look, please.

18 A. Ms. Vidovic, I will tell you about the people mentioned in this

19 document who certainly did not spend a single day in the Cerska area, and

20 they are Mr. Birco Atif, on the first page of the document, under number

21 5. Then, under number 5(b), Dr. Ismet Kutlovac, whom I know well. It

22 says here he's a medical services officer. From the beginning of the war

23 until the fall of Cerska, he did not spend a single day in Cerska.

24 And then, on page 2, number 7, officer for ONP, probably

25 operations and training affairs, Haris Susic. I know him very well. He

1 did not spend a single day in Cerska.

2 After that, officer for cadre and personnel issues, Zaim Aliustic.

3 He was a teacher, a colleague of mine, who also did not spend a single day

4 in Cerska during the war, until the fall of Cerska. I don't know

5 whether --

6 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you something else now. Look at the

7 following now. In the 1st Cerani Detachment, I propose the following for

8 war duties, and then it says Mekanic Becir, commander of the detachment.

9 Please, to the best of your knowledge was Becir Mekanic ever the commander

10 of the 1st Cerani Detachment or is this referring to something else?

11 A. Ms. Vidovic, to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Mekanic was the

12 leader of an armed group of men which arrived with him in Cerska in the

13 summer of 1992, and what it says here is something I'm not familiar with.

14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, who was at the head of the Cerani

15 group throughout the time from its establishment until the fall of Cerska?

16 A. The leader of the largest group of people from Cerani was

17 Mr. Salihovic Semsud, and Salihovic also known as Semso. He was the

18 leader.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Now look at number 2. This refers to you.

20 It says assistant commander for morale and training, Dedic Ejub. And

21 please pay attention to the following. It says in the -- performing war

22 duties in the municipal Territorial Defence staff from the 15th of April,

23 1992.

24 Take a look at these three documents now. I asked them to be left

25 before you. P581. Turn to page 3. Then P582, the first page. And now

1 look at this here, what they say about you on page 2 of this document.

2 These are three documents shown to you yesterday by the Prosecutor, three

3 different documents, suggesting what you were doing as of the 15th of

4 April, 1992. Please look at document P581, which says: "From the 15th of

5 April, 1992, in the 3rd Company of the 1st Cerani Detachment, deputy

6 company commander."

7 Then if you look at the attachment, which is the commander's

8 proposal, and it says at the same time you distinguished yourself as an

9 organiser of village guards, at least until the 15th of November, 1992.

10 Do you agree that these two facts are contradictory?

11 A. Absolutely, yes.

12 Q. Well, now look at P582, where it says: "Deputy company commander,

13 company commander, chief of the Secretariat of Defence in the Cerani

14 Detachment, and the date of all that is the 15th of April, 1992. And

15 according to P584, the last document I showed to you, which was presented

16 by the Prosecutor, where it says: "From the 15th of April, 1992 on war

17 duty in the Municipal Staff of the Vlasenica TO." And in August you were

18 appointed assistant for morale.

19 Now, Mr. Dedic, does it seem to you that from the 15th of April

20 1992 until November, according to what the Prosecutor wants to suggest to

21 you, you were both an organiser of village guards and a deputy company

22 commander and a member of the Vlasenica staff and an assistant for morale

23 and you were in the Cerani Detachment in charge of the Secretariat for

24 National Defence? Does it seem like this to you when you look at all

25 these documents together?

1 A. I am completely confused now by what I see before me. It would

2 take several men to perform all these tasks and do all these jobs

3 described in all these documents.

4 Q. Please tell Their Honours what you were actually doing at the

5 time, briefly.

6 A. I wish to repeat once again, very briefly: I was part of an armed

7 group in Cerska, which was active in Skugrici, and when needed, in other

8 parts of Cerska when the leaders of certain groups asked us for

9 assistance.

10 Q. Thank you. You can put away these three documents now.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

12 document P123.

13 Q. This is a document issued by the Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, district defence staff Tuzla, 29th of August, 1992. The

15 title is "Report on staffs, institutions and units established," and it is

16 addressed to the staff of the Supreme Command.

17 Witness, please, yesterday the Prosecutor asked you some detailed

18 questions about this document. He read out to you a sentence and said the

19 following: "Based on your order of the 21st of August, 1992, we submit a

20 report on the staffs and units established of the armed forces of the

21 Tuzla district on the requested form."

22 Based on this sentence, he suggested that these were staffs and

23 units that had already been established. I will quote to you the text

24 that follows after this on page 1, and please listen carefully, because I

25 will ask you to comment on this.

1 "In connection with item 2 of your order, we hereby inform you

2 that we do not have the order to form units for any of the units formed so

3 far from the staff of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the

4 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but following the formation and

5 reformation of the existing units, we will request your authorisation,

6 that is, agreement. The reforming that has already started has been

7 temporarily halted because of intensified combat operations in our area.

8 As soon as the units have been formed, the existing units are transformed

9 into larger combat units, we will report to you about this."

10 Mr. Dedic, please, my question in connection with this is as

11 follows: Do you know whether, according to your experience when working

12 as a professional soldier, whether it can be considered that a staff-level

13 unit has been established unless there is an order on its establishment

14 issued by the Supreme Command of the armed forces?

15 A. No, that can't happen.

16 Q. What I have read out to you, does it speak of precisely what you

17 have just said?

18 A. Yes. Established without approval.

19 Q. Now, please take another look at this entire document and then we

20 will dwell on it briefly. And that is on page 4, the part that speaks of

21 the municipal defence staff of Vlasenica.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's page 6 in

23 English.

24 Q. Have you found it, Witness?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Yesterday you mentioned Kladanj several times, and because many of

2 the people sitting here in the courtroom don't know this, could you please

3 explain the following: You see it says here Vlasenica municipal defence

4 staff, and there are two Kladanj companies listed here. Let me ask you

5 the following: According to what criterion, or rather, does Kladanj by

6 any criterion fall within the Vlasenica municipality?

7 A. No. This is a municipality which is territorially linked to

8 Vlasenica municipality but has no other features in common.

9 Q. In August 1992, how far was it from Cerska?

10 A. In view of the fact that we couldn't use the roads that are used

11 in normal times, and this is a road that's about 70 kilometres long, I

12 think that the distance through the wilderness was, in my view, about a

13 hundred kilometres.

14 Q. Please, according to what you see written here in this document,

15 what is written here in the document, does it correspond to the actual

16 situation on the ground? Is the author familiar with the actual situation

17 on the ground, according to what you see?

18 A. According to what it says here, I think that the person, or

19 persons, who compiled this document had no idea about the situation on the

20 ground they were describing on this paper here.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now please have the witness shown

23 D820 and D825.

24 Q. Witness, let's just clarify something. I'm looking at the

25 transcript now, and when I asked you about Kladanj and Cerska, the

1 transcript says that the territory of Kladanj and Vlasenica is linked up.

2 Are you trying to say that these are neighbouring municipalities or are

3 they linked up?

4 A. These are neighbouring municipalities, bordering on one another.

5 They are adjacent in terms of their territory.

6 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Do you remember that yesterday

7 the Prosecutor showed you a decision of the command of the Drina Corps to

8 liberate Pobudje, Konjevic Polje, and Cerska? So could you please look at

9 page 7 straight away, page 7 of this document.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the last page of this

11 document, page 7, the last page.

12 Q. I'm talking about D820 here. Have you got it in front of you?

13 Please look at the last page of this document.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just going to put a

16 few brief questions in relation to the communications system that the

17 Prosecutor insisted upon. And this also has to do with D825, the part

18 that pertains to the secure communications of the Serb forces.

19 Q. Witness, please, on page 7 of this document, the date is -- or

20 rather, it says: "All written and oral information should be conveyed

21 through coded information, use code signs, maps, and pay particular

22 attention to confidentiality at all levels."

23 Through this document and through document 825, the Prosecutor

24 tried to suggest to you that this has to do with the fact that the Serbs

25 are doing it, or rather, that the Serbs are doing it because the Muslims

1 have a system that makes it possible to intercept their conversations. Do

2 you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you the following: Have you heard of the fact

5 that the Yugoslav People's Army, in May 1992, allegedly withdrew all its

6 capacities from Bosnia-Herzegovina to Serbia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember that this was in all the media, that it was

9 broadcast to the entire world public? Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do remember that. But by your leave, Your Honours, I

11 myself saw a long column of vehicles moving from Sarajevo via Vlasenica,

12 Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, towards Serbia, a very, very long column of

13 vehicles in that period.

14 Q. Please, I'm going to ask you the following: What about you who

15 were in the area at the time? Did you know that the JNA left the Serbs in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina their commanding officers?

17 A. Yes. I first heard that from the refugees that came from

18 Vlasenica.

19 Q. Thank you. So you heard of that fact, you knew of that fact?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please, could that be the reason why the Serbs insist on

22 confidentiality and codes? Now I'm going to suggest something different

23 to you.

24 A. Yes, that could be the reason.

25 Q. Could the reason be the fact that, as for their personnel and

1 communications, the Serbs are trying to hide that from foreign

2 intelligence agencies?

3 A. Yes, that's quite possible.

4 Q. In terms of all these codes and this equipment that is mentioned

5 in the document.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please, do you agree with the following: Anything that you could

8 answer to this kind of question put by the Prosecution or anybody else, it

9 can only be guesswork; right?

10 A. Yes, yes, just guesswork, speculation.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

12 witness Defence Exhibit 819, please.

13 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you this document. I counted the

14 number of times he repeated this to you, seven times exactly. He repeated

15 to you that this document says "destroy Muslim forces in the area."

16 Destroy, crush, but anyway, destroy. And in relation to that, Mr. Dedic,

17 he put this question to you: "Why was the Bratunac Command so concerned,

18 so worried about these Muslim forces? What was it that frightened them?

19 Why did they attack? What led them to decide to attack this way?" Do you

20 remember?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In relation to that, Mr. Dedic, I'm going to ask you the

23 following: When you testified on the first day, you said to us that the

24 population of Vlasenica, with the exception of Cerska, handed over their

25 weapons without any resistance in May 1992; is that correct?

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1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. As far as you know, the same was done by the Muslim population of

3 Glogova and many other parts of Bratunac; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. That's what I heard, that that happened in Glogova and in

5 some other places in the area.

6 Q. Please, in relation to that, can you tell us then, and after that

7 surrender of weapons in May 1992, what was the objective of the Serb

8 forces in the entire Podrinje area and beyond, throughout Bosnia, if you

9 know?

10 A. In terms of what happened after the disarming of people in places

11 that we mentioned, very soon came attacks at these villages, the killing

12 of people, the destruction of villages. So, in my assessment, in this

13 way, they wanted to destroy the Muslim population and their movable and

14 immovable property.

15 Q. Please, on the basis of your experience in Cerska and in the

16 surrounding Muslim villages that you spoke of, was there any change in

17 that objective or that intention of the Serbs, from May 1992 until this

18 document was issued on the 3rd of December, 1992, according to what you

19 experienced there?

20 A. According to what I, and all of us who were there, regrettably,

21 nothing changed. Their idea was the same from the beginning to the end.

22 Q. Did this idea change by 1995?

23 A. Regrettably, it culminated then, and that is when we experienced a

24 tragedy of cosmic proportions.

25 Q. Did the Serbs then attain their objective?

1 A. Unfortunately, yes.

2 Q. Can there be any other interpretation of this document on the

3 basis of your experience in terms of the intentions and objectives of the

4 Serbs?

5 A. Absolutely not. This is absolutely correctly written here. What

6 is written here is what was later done on the ground.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm just

8 going to put a few more questions that have to do with the subregion,

9 please.

10 Q. Mr. Dedic, the Prosecutor asked you several times whether the lack

11 of communications was the reason why you could not implement decisions of

12 the subregion. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I remember that.

14 Q. Actually, Serb attacks, artillery and infantry attacks that you

15 testified about, did they play a major role in that?

16 A. Absolutely, yes.

17 Q. He asked you about Tumace. He suggested to you that you went to

18 Tumace. But let us clarify something here. Is Tumace actually a place

19 within the area of Cerska itself or within the Cerska enclave that was

20 under the control of Muslim groups?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you very briefly describe for the Trial Chamber how you

23 managed to get through to Konjevic Polje even before the 15th of November,

24 1992. Was it simple to get through in order to attend those meetings?

25 Could you please describe what this was like.

1 A. Yes. I mentioned once that all these meetings were held at night.

2 With a group that went with me from Cerska, we went through the

3 wilderness, crossed the Jadar, went through the woods, and literally came

4 wet to Konjevic Polje. We had to go through the fields, through the

5 wilderness, quite literally, in order to avoid death, which unfortunately

6 befell quite a few people in these attempts.

7 Q. Thank you. The Ham radio station was mentioned in Srebrenica.

8 Did its existence in any way help the implementation of the subregion, or

9 could it have helped the subregion actually exist in reality?

10 A. Absolutely not, because we did not have a Ham radio station in

11 order to be able to communicate with it.

12 Q. At any rate, do you agree that a Ham radio station is something

13 that has completely open communication, open lines?

14 A. Yes. I repeat: I talked to my son in Belgrade through the Ham

15 radio station that existed in Srebrenica.

16 Q. Please, as you testified, several times you said that Hamed

17 Salihovic issued orders to Semso and issued several orders to him, and you

18 said that he kept trying to issue orders all the time. I wish to ask you

19 the following: Was the issuing of orders sufficient for the subregion to

20 exist in practice even if he had issued thousands of orders?

21 A. Absolutely not. In practice, it was impossible. It was undoable.

22 Q. The Prosecutor gave you several examples of people being in Cerska

23 and Srebrenica and that that proved that communication was possible. I'm

24 going to asking something else. Did you hear that towards the end of

25 1969, Neil Armstrong landed on the moon?

1 A. Yes, I remember the name.

2 Q. And do you know that a few other people went to the moon after

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please, does that mean -- or rather, do you agree that not many

6 people landed on the moon then?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Does that mean, then, that if Neil Armstrong and a few other

9 people landed on the moon, that it is possible for people to land on the

10 moon?

11 A. Yes. There is always the possibility of people landing on the

12 moon, but some may and others may not. It's a question of luck too.

13 Q. Do you also know that many people died while attempting to reach

14 the moon?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I'm going to tell you why I put this question to you. These

17 people who decided to go from Cerska to Konjevic Polje or Srebrenica, or

18 wherever, were these desperate people who were prepared to get killed in

19 order to be evacuated or in order to get food?

20 A. Yes. I often said that, and that is my profound conviction, that

21 these were either desperate people or people who were excessively brave or

22 mentally insufficiently mature. There is no other way I can understand

23 them.

24 Q. Please, what they did, what only a few people did, is that

25 sufficient -- are those sufficient grounds for assuming that the subregion

1 was actually functioning?

2 A. No, absolutely. This has nothing to do with the functioning of

3 the subregion. These were individual attempts that were made, and we

4 talked about that.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just going to put one more

6 questions, Your Honours.

7 Q. Please, you know the area of Cerska. How far away is Rovasi from

8 the centre of Cerska, or that urban part of Cerska, where the school is,

9 from the centre of Cerska?

10 A. I think that it's about five or six kilometres away.

11 Q. And how far away from your village, Skugrici?

12 A. From me, I think approximately eight or nine kilometres, something

13 like that.

14 Q. Thank you. Eight or nine kilometres?

15 A. Well, yes. I'm not sure. That's an approximation.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

17 further questions.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got very few questions, one from Judge

20 Brydensholt and two or three from Judge Eser. I'm asking the interpreters

21 and then also the witness: Do you prefer to have a break now of 30

22 minutes and then we'll resume or conclude, or do you want to go another

23 five minutes now and then adjourn?

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps ten minutes. What is your preference?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, we prefer to go on now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MR. WUBBEN: That's fine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness, do you think you can stick another

5 ten minutes with us?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank everybody, let's proceed. Judge

8 Brydensholt has a question for you, sir.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: You mentioned Nurif Rizvanovic who arrived

11 from Tuzla, I suppose it was in August 1992, and you had contacts with him

12 in September and October 1992. What happened to him and his 400 fighters

13 afterwards? Are you aware?

14 A. Yes. He, with about 400 fighters, went to Konjevic Polje, where

15 he arrived on the 4th of August, 1992. These fighters, who were armed and

16 uniformed, remained, as far as I know, some of them in Konjevic Polje,

17 while others went to their native villages.

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And did they remain under the command of Nurif

19 Rizvanovic? In other words, did he stay also together with his men or did

20 he return to Tuzla, or what happened to him?

21 A. Mr. Rizvanovic remained with these men. I'm not aware that he

22 went back to Tuzla, because, as you mentioned, I met him on two occasions,

23 so he was there. He didn't go back to Tuzla.

24 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Is it possible that his men, who were

25 uniformed, and I understand that you think that he remained together with

1 his men as their commander, that they took prisoners? Would that be a

2 possibility or would you say if they have done so, you would have heard

3 about it?

4 A. Your Honours, quite honestly, I don't remember their taking any

5 prisoners, and I'm not aware of any such thing.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

7 Judge Eser.

8 JUDGE ESER: Just to follow up the last questions: You told us

9 that Cerska is a long village and you are from Skugrici. Now, with regard

10 to the question if there was any place where people may have been detained

11 for any reason, for exchanging them with other people, what makes you so

12 sure that there was no such a place in Cerska?

13 A. I come from Skugrici. I was born there and worked in the primary

14 school there. It took me 30 minutes to walk to the school. And I've

15 explained how big the area is. I stayed in Cerska only briefly, when we

16 were required to help, so I didn't have much information about those kind

17 of events, and I'm really not aware of any facts concerning this.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,

20 the witness said "I didn't know of the existence of a prison." He did not

21 exclude the possibility of its existence.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. I don't think any of us three understood

23 it in a different -- Judge Eser, please proceed.

24 JUDGE ESER: Before I put my next question, I would like to tell

25 you that I have not any military background whatsoever. I have never been

1 in any military service and so on. So you may allow me the following

2 question: When you have been asked on what criteria a leader of a group

3 was selected or agreed upon, you told us leaders have been those who have

4 been the bravest. What does it mean, in order to be found a brave

5 fighter, what should he have to show? What should a fighter do in order

6 to be considered a brave fighter?

7 A. Your Honour, a brave fighter is one who, in counterattack, goes

8 first; who raises the morale of others to follow him. I had the

9 impression then, as I do now, that these are people who are not afraid of

10 death. And when I see someone acting like this, he inspires everybody

11 else to want to be brave, to be a good fighter, and to defend what he has

12 to defend. So these were the people who went first, who went in advance

13 of everybody else.

14 JUDGE ESER: So may I conclude from your answer, in order to be a

15 brave fighter, it would not be sufficient just to do paperwork, to give

16 orders, but that you have been supposed to be somewhere on the

17 battlefield?

18 A. Absolutely. Number one, in the area where I was, the first thing

19 to be considered was a man's courage, the courage of the individual. That

20 was the first criterion for someone to be a leader.

21 JUDGE ESER: If someone was recommended, and you told us about a

22 meeting in Konjevic Polje, was recommended to be some sort of leader for a

23 broader region, would it suffice just to give orders or would you expect

24 that they had shown some courage on the field, in the field?

25 A. I was saying that courage is very important. If people are brave,

1 they have the confidence of all the members of the group around them.

2 That was the key thing.

3 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now my second question has to do with

4 questions which have been asked with regard to the organisation of the

5 various groups. You insisted that the local groups have been independent

6 local groups; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ESER: On the other side, you rejected the idea that there

9 was some sort of unification of these local groups; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ESER: Now, if I may propose to you that between having

12 completely independent local groups, on the one side, and the uniformed,

13 regional organisation on the other side, that between these two extremes,

14 there may be other forms of some sort of cooperation between local groups?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

16 MR. JONES: Your Honour, are we talking about in the abstract,

17 that there's a possibility, aside from Bosnia, aside from Srebrenica, that

18 one can have something in between local groups, or is this witness being

19 asked to accept that maybe there was something intermediate? In fact he's

20 repeatedly said that there were self-organised, isolated groups. I know

21 Your Honour probably wants to suggest that it was more organised and I

22 feel bound to point out that every question from Your Honour Judge Eser

23 seems to be designed to help the Prosecution, and I object to it

24 strenuously.

25 JUDGE ESER: Not all, Mr. Jones. I just want to clarify what it

1 means to have a unified -- if there are graduations between completely

2 independent, local groups, on the one side, or a full unification, on the

3 other side, whether there may be different grades of some sort of

4 cooperation.

5 My question is: Is there only either/or? That's my question.

6 A. Your Honours, I said that these groups, from the very beginning,

7 had the exclusive task and purpose of defending their village. The next

8 group had the same task. They cooperated among themselves only if they

9 were facing a joint threat from an enemy coming from the same side. The

10 possibility of their joining up in another way, at least at that time, in

11 that period, did not exist, in my opinion.

12 JUDGE ESER: Now let's leave this point. You always have pointed

13 out that your groups, the organisation was a voluntary one. Now let's

14 forget any army structure, something like this, that the groups really

15 have been founded and organised on a voluntary basis. Now, my question

16 is: If somebody has been prepared to join such a group, was he supposed

17 to carry out decisions taken by this group to go with these people, along,

18 if there was, some sort of action to be taken?

19 A. No. I can give you an example from my group, where men arrived on

20 their own initiative. Some arrived sooner, some later, in terms of time.

21 Occasionally, they would leave, without seeking approval from anybody,

22 spend a few days somewhere else, and then come back again. There was

23 nothing we could do to punish such men for turning up and then leaving

24 again and coming back. So what I'm saying is it was up to them and their

25 own conscience what they did. So it was completely voluntary.

1 JUDGE ESER: Thank you very much for your explanation.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

3 Mr. Dedic, I don't have any questions for you. We've come to the

4 end of your testimony here. So you see, we have, thanks to the

5 cooperation of everyone, made it possible for you to be able to go back

6 home after you leave this courtroom. Before you leave this courtroom, I

7 want to put your mind at rest that our staff will assist you to facilitate

8 your return back home at the earliest, and also on behalf of Judge

9 Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself, but also on behalf of the Tribunal, I

10 would like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this

11 case. And my last words to you before you leave is to wish you, on behalf

12 of everyone here, a safe journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you,

14 too. And I wish you happiness and success in your future work.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you were going to wish me an early

16 retirement. Thank you, Mr. Dedic.

17 So you can escort -- in the meantime, I just thank everyone for

18 having cooperated in making it possible for this witness to be able to go

19 home, and also for having accepted to go on for 15 minutes past the usual

20 sacramental hour and a half that we are allocated for each sitting. I

21 thank you so much.

22 We'll resume on Monday. Are we sitting in the morning or in the

23 afternoon? In the afternoon. We start now the -- I am doing my best,

24 gentlemen -- ladies and gentlemen, to try, if there is a slot in the

25 morning, to move sittings to the morning, but it's becoming difficult,

1 because we are handicapped by the non-availability of one courtroom.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So please bear with me. I don't want you to think

4 for a moment that I'm enjoying this. I'm doing my best and the Registrar

5 is doing their best as well to assist us as much as they can. Of course,

6 there has to be a balance achieved and maintained between the various

7 Trial Chambers. But I am doing my level best to have as many shifted to

8 the morning.

9 I thank you. Have a nice weekend, and we'll meet again, please

10 God, on Monday afternoon.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.44 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

13 October 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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