1 Monday, 17 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you
6 call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: His microphone is on. Only one, at least. So if
14 you could repeat, Mr. Oric, please, because the interpreters couldn't hear
15 what you were saying.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I can
17 indeed follow the proceedings in my own language.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.
19 So appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. And also good
21 afternoon to my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben,
22 lead counsel for the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel
23 Ms. Patricia Sellers, Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.
1 Appearances for Naser Oric.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am
3 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I represent Mr. Oric.
4 We are joined by our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case
5 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam, and good afternoon to you, too.
7 So any preliminaries?
8 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a very brief
11 point that I'd like to make and then my colleague would like to make a
12 point as well. Your Honours, we've submitted a list of witnesses and the
13 timetable from those witnesses, and I'd like to inform you that we no
14 longer wish to call Dr. Ilijaz Pilav, for two reasons. First of all, for
15 the fact that his testimony has been rescheduled, he now cannot appear
16 here because he has previous engagements. And secondly, we've assessed
17 the situation very clearly and we've reached the conclusion that his
18 testimony, at least quite a few parts of his testimony, would amount to a
19 repetition and that's why we'd like to withdraw that witness. However, we
20 don't think we'll be wasting any time because this witness that we planned
21 for three days is certainly going to take longer; at least four days, that
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and we certainly
24 appreciate your appreciating the need to avoid repetition as we go along.
25 I think that would be extremely helpful.
1 Yes, the other two things is -- are the following: Number one, I
2 just wanted to check that you have been served with a copy of the
3 Registrar's response on -- following our decision on your motion to enable
4 document examination and that you are aware of the arrangements that are
5 in place.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number one.
8 Number two is this: On the 17th of November, those of us that
9 have been here for four years and have been re-elected begin the second
10 term, and then there are -- is two new Judges, one of whom has already
11 taken up her position as permanent Judge as of recently, I mean a few days
12 ago. The other one will be sworn in on the 17th of November. On the 17th
13 of November we have a special ceremony in the morning to be then followed
14 by an Extraordinary Plenary of the Judges. Now, we are supposed -- we are
15 scheduled to sit that day in the morning. The latest I have heard is that
16 at 9.00 there will be this ceremony, swearing-in ceremony and renewal of
17 the term for us, the others, and then immediately after we have this
18 Plenary, which is going to last some time. I mean, it's -- I don't think
19 that it will last all morning. So as we go along I will come back to you
20 more or less with some indication on whether on that particular day we
21 will sit part of the day or whether, if it is possible, we can also
22 possibly shift it to the afternoon. And that's in order not to disrupt
23 your schedule and the testimony that would probably be ongoing at the
25 However, between the 7th and the 11th we have spoken amongst
1 ourselves, talked amongst ourselves, and we've come to the conclusion that
2 we need a week to do some very serious housekeeping, to take stock of the
3 evidence that has accumulated since you started the Defence, so that we
4 start placing it in the proper pigeonhole and also have meetings with our
5 staff. And therefore, we propose not to sit between the 7th and the 11th
6 of November. I understand that this is okay with both of you, but I just
7 wanted to confirm -- we've discussed it at length, we've discussed other
8 possibilities, but I think there is no way that we can do work seriously
9 unless we really stop the sittings for -- for a week, also because we
10 can't unduly expect too much from -- or much more from our staff who are
11 working Saturdays and Sundays, included, like most of us. So that's the
12 position, all right? Okay. Thank you.
13 So this week we are going to have practically this one witness we
14 are going to start today. No problems with him, I take it, no health
15 problems or anything of the sort, Ms. Vidovic?
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honours. Prior to
17 that, I'd like to make another point. We've announced another preliminary
18 issue as well, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I did want to notify
21 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution that -- that today we're filing a
22 Rule 68 motion, another motion regarding Rule 68. But it's -- I mention
23 it now because it's marked as urgent and it's -- it truly is urgent for
24 reasons which I'll explain briefly now. I'm afraid I don't have courtesy
25 copies now of the motion because it was completed shortly before we came
1 to Court, but I understand by the first break we'll have courtesy copies.
2 It concerns an article which we've notified on the exhibit list.
3 The ERN, for the record, is 01297984 to 01297987, and in a moment I can
4 distribute that if need be. In essence it is an article entitled "Dogs of
5 War: Slobodan Misic TOP, How I killed Croats and Muslims." In that
6 article, a volunteer from Serbia, Slobodan Misic, who served in Fakovici
7 during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, confesses in a lot of gory
8 detail about how he and others in Serb units in Bratunac, the precise area
9 which we're concerned with with this witness in this case, how he was
10 deployed there by the Serbian Territorial Defence and how he himself
11 killed some 80 -- 70 to 80 people and how, in his estimate, 4.000 to 5.000
12 Muslims were killed in villages in the area, Zanjevo, Tegare, places which
13 we're very familiar with in this case. He describes killing and
14 decapitating Muslim prisoners. He describes how he and his co-fighters
15 ambushed and killed Muslim villagers who were going in search of food,
16 precisely issues which we've been putting forward since the start of this
17 case, and he tells how he himself even killed Muslim women.
18 When he's asked in the article whether he fought against the
19 Muslim army, he replied: "No, they were civilians, villagers, in most
20 cases insufficiently armed with double-barrelled guns and similar rifles."
21 Exactly the sort of thing that we've been saying since the start of this
23 Now that's our theory of the case. The Prosecution, as you know,
24 has been advancing and continues to advance a case according to which, in
25 places like Fakovici, there were nothing but village guards minding their
1 business, tending to their farms, posing no threat to anybody. A
2 completely different picture of events from what's described in this
3 article. And then plainly, therefore plainly, this is exculpatory
4 material; it supports our case, it completely contradicts the picture
5 which they've been seeking to paint of the situation in these Serb
6 villages. And in our motion I've quoted at length Mr. Di Fazio at the
7 Rule 92 bis hearing - I won't go into it now - but talking about village
8 guards as community creations and how these people would simply guard
9 their village at night and watch their farms by day. I personally find it
10 extraordinary that the Prosecution still advances this vision, this
11 picture of events, but there it is, they do. And as long as they do, they
12 absolutely have to disclose to us material which so directly contradicts
13 that case.
14 Now, it's not simply that this article is ERNed - we've found it
15 on the EDS system using Fakovici as a search term - but moreover, we have
16 another document in which a spokesman of the Prosecutor back in November
17 1997, nearly eight years ago, said that they were aware of Slobodan Misic
18 case, that they were requesting more information from the authorities.
19 And this comes to the crux really: Firstly, our general complaint that
20 why on earth has this not been disclosed to us before now? But secondly,
21 and this is the urgency, is that if the Prosecution does have any further
22 material relating to Slobodan Misic, who, I might add, appears, his name
23 appears in a document I intend to use as an exhibit with this witness, hen
24 we're up to our last Fakovici witness, all the Prosecution Fakovici
25 witnesses who also picture painted this picture of village guards and
1 Serbs peacefully minding their business, they've all gone. We've lost the
2 opportunity to cross-examine them with this material in hand. So if, as
3 it appears from this other document, which I'll hand them up once I've
4 finished these submissions, but in which the spokesperson of the
5 Prosecution said that he would contact the competent bodies of the FRY in
6 order to obtain additional information. If they have any additional
7 information about Slobodan Misic and what he was doing in Fakovici and
8 that area, then we absolutely have to have it before this witness even
9 leaves The Hague so we can still use the evidence with him, albeit without
10 the benefit of proofing him with that material in hand.
11 We've been asking for material on Fakovici since 28th of August,
12 2003, and we're enclosing in our motion the correspondence. We've
13 referred to the Fakovici units, to any evidence of massacres of Muslims in
14 these areas covered by the indictment. So not only have we been asking
15 for it for nearly two years, it's known to the Prosecution for nearly
16 eight years. Frankly, that is our complaint, that's what our motion deals
17 with. And we would ask the Prosecution and Your Honours to seriously
18 review and urgently review this motion when it's filed this afternoon and
19 take the appropriate steps.
20 And if it would assist Your Honours, I can pass up the exhibits
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We can have the exhibits and we will have the
23 courtesy copy after the first break.
24 MR. JONES: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the Prosecution have advance notice of this --
1 MR. JONES: No, I've finished this --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: This is just news --
3 MR. JONES: I'm --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It is news to them like it is to us.
5 MR. JONES: Yes. That's why we completed the motion really some
6 minutes before we came to Court and so that's why I wanted to mention it
7 now. Obviously, the Prosecution doesn't need to respond immediately
8 unless they wish to, and we'll have the courtesy copies later and we'll
9 ask you to consider it. This is the second document in which the
10 spokesperson of the OTP refers to the Slobodan Misic case.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll check on this later. I don't think it's
12 the case of you standing up and making any statements at this point,
13 because I don't even know if you know which documents we are --
14 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour. But we will get back to you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. You will have to. I mean, there's no
16 point in discussing that, because if there's going to be a motion, you
17 will need to.
18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, but we are taken by surprise as well.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Wubben. I told you straight
20 away that you're not expected to make any statements now.
21 MR. JONES: I thought at the time, Your Honour, that it's best to
22 just explain once to Your Honours and to the Prosecution rather than
23 entering into a discussion with the Prosecution minutes before we --.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. Of course not, no. All right. So this
25 stays here for the time being.
1 Incidentally, while we are on the subject of Rule 68 disclosure,
2 last week there was one incident regarding Rule 66(B) disclosure and there
3 was lack of agreement between you as to whether the relative document had
4 been disclosed in CD format when Mr. Wubben stated that it -- or
5 maintained that it had been disclosed. And you promised to check, Madam
6 Vidovic. I'm asking you so that we complete this -- that particular
7 chapter, at least, and close it.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I had already
9 confirmed it on that very day. It was indeed on a CD but that CD included
10 an enormous amount of other documentation, and that was a handwritten
11 document. And we don't seem to be able to find it now, and we have tried
12 a number of search criteria. And this is something that I've already
13 mentioned on a number of occasions when talking to the colleagues from the
14 Prosecution. That is to say, as handwritten documents go, they are simply
15 not recognised by the computer. Even though these documents come under
16 Rule 68 and 66 ter, they simply need to submit them to us, because we've
17 got some CDs with as many as 10.000 different files.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
19 Can we bring the witness in.
20 MR. JONES: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I see the technician -- yes.
22 MR. JONES: Could I ask Your Honours and the Prosecution to keep
23 your copies of the document which I distributed, because I plan to use it
24 as an exhibit, and of course having distributed the copies now, I could
25 either ask for exhibit numbers, or when we come to it, I'll just assume
1 that everyone has copies. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will have another copy when we get
3 the copy of the motion in any case, so ...
4 [The witness entered court]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 WITNESS: IBRO ALIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Alic. Are you
11 receiving --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One thing you would have already noticed straight
17 away is that while I am speaking in English, what I am saying is being
18 simultaneously translated to you in your own language.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That is of extreme importance, paramount importance,
21 because you are a witness here and you need to follow exactly what is
22 happening. At the same time, what you say in your own language will be
23 simultaneously translated to us in English, and to others. So it's
24 important that you speak slowly and speak into the microphone so that the
25 interpreters can follow. If at any time there are problems with
1 interpretation, with the reception, either you're not receiving
2 interpretation at all or the level -- sound level is too high or too low,
3 then please draw our attention straight away so that we will look into it
4 and do what is necessary.
5 Very soon you will be starting with your testimony. You are a
6 Defence witness, that is you have been summoned here by the Defence team
7 for Mr. Oric. And our Rules require that before you start giving evidence
8 you make a statement, a solemn statement, equivalent to an oath in several
9 jurisdictions, tantamount to a solemn declaration that in the course of
10 your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and
11 nothing but the truth. In other words, that your testimony will be
13 The text is contained in a piece of paper that Madam Usher is
14 going to hand to you now. Please read it out aloud and -- read that text
15 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Please make yourself
19 comfortable. You are going to be here with us testifying for a few days,
20 Mr. Alic, and the first part of our testimony will be answering -- will
21 consist in answering questions from Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel for
22 Mr. Oric. When the examination-in-chief is finished, then it will be
23 followed by a cross-examination, and it will be Ms. Patricia Sellers, the
24 lady in the middle next to the gentleman, next to the lead counsel, who
25 will be cross-examining you.
1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether you will be able to go back home the end of
3 this week or not pretty much depends on you. I can assure you, because I
4 know everyone here, that everyone will do their level best to try and send
5 you back home by the weekend. But if you give lengthy answers, if you
6 beat around the bush, if you give more information than is required from
7 you when you are asked a question, then obviously you are going to be here
8 for longer. So I -- my suggestion to you is that you, when answering
9 questions, irrespective of where they are coming from, Defence and
10 Prosecution, you not only try to answer truthfully and concisely, but you
11 try to restrict your answer to what is being asked from you. If it is a
12 question that requires a simple, straightforward yes or no answer, then
13 give a simple yes or no answer. If, however, you believe that in addition
14 to that it's better if you give some kind of explanation to elucidate, to
15 clarify, your answer, then just ask that you be allowed to explain further
16 and we will certainly let you explain further unless it's the case of
17 obviously not wanting more information. Have I made myself clear to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perfectly clear, Your Honour. Thank
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones will be examining you in chief.
21 Mr. Jones.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Examined by Mr. Jones:
24 Q. Good afternoon from me, Witness.
25 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Jones.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, until just -- we will be sitting right
2 through to 7.00 today. So --
3 MR. JONES: I presume there will be a break.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: No. There are going to be two breaks because I've
5 been asked to have two breaks. So there will be a break after an hour and
6 a half, another break after he second session of an hour and a half, and
7 then obviously the last part which will be -- If, however, you notice
8 that your witness is getting tired or you or Madam Vidovic are getting
9 tired, then of course we will stop whenever you tell us.
10 MR. JONES: Right. Thank you, Your Honour. You had me worried.
11 I thought I was going to have to go right through until 7.00.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I see that we speak the same language.
13 MR. JONES: I see Ms. Sellers on her feet.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, while we are discussing issues of time
16 and timing. Since we have had a change in some of the presentation of the
17 Defence case, I wonder if the Defence could possibly tell us now how long
18 they intend for their direct examination for this witness to be because it
19 seems that that might have changed.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. How long do you expect -- I suppose
21 from what I could gather from Ms. Vidovic, it's two days?
22 MR. JONES: Yes. So essentially six hours -- six hours is my best
23 estimate now, but possibly a bit more. Over the course of proofing, the
24 estimate did go up.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 And in that case, what do you anticipate as time requirement on
2 your part?
3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would state that it would probably be
4 100 per cent of the time that they've allotted, and if it is either
5 prolonged or reduced we would certainly try and inform not only on the
6 Trial Chamber but also Defence counsel.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So tentatively we're saying two days for
8 Prosecution, two days for Defence for the time being, and then obviously
9 we play it by the ear as it goes along, especially since we are not going
10 to have another witness after this witness later on this week. So we
11 could afford to go to -- no, we can't, because Friday is a UN holiday. So
12 we need to finish by --
13 MS. SELLERS: I believe it's Monday.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay then. So we can go -- spill onto Friday then.
16 But tentatively, let's say two days Prosecution, two days Defence. All
17 right. And then if we have an emergency or a crisis, then obviously we'll
18 find a remedy.
19 Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.
21 Q. Now, please for the record give the Court your full name.
22 A. Ibro Alic.
23 Q. And can you tell us, incidentally, is that a common or uncommon
24 name in your area?
25 A. It's a common name.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. JONES: A bit like John Jones.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: At the Srebrenica-Potocari memorial, you see Alic
4 MR. JONES: I should have said a popular name because I always ask
5 if -- I say my name is a popular name rather than a common name.
6 Q. Can you confirm that you were born on the 1st of January, 1971 in
7 Jagodnja in Bratunac municipality?
8 A. I didn't hear anything.
9 Q. I'll repeat.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I want to know if you heard anything, Madam
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was an
14 interruption in the interpretation process at one point, and that's
15 probably what the witness is referring to. If my colleague could please
16 just repeat his question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we have problems here as well.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Could the interpreters say something so that we can
20 follow from here.
21 THE INTERPRETER: English booth interpretation speaking.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you repeat again, please.
23 THE INTERPRETER: English booth.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. Alic, and sorry, Mr. Jones.
25 MR. JONES: Right.
1 Q. Okay. To repeat the question --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you please repeat your question.
3 MR. JONES: Yes.
4 Q. Can you confirm that you were born on the 1st of January, 1971?
5 A. Again, I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.
6 MR. JONES: I assume it's not the question, because it's a
7 straightforward one.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
9 MR. JONES: Okay.
10 Q. Let me start again. Tell us when you were born.
11 A. On the 1st of January, 1971, in Jagodnja.
12 Q. And what municipality is Jagodnja in?
13 A. Bratunac.
14 Q. And did you complete primary school in Fakovici in 1986?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And before the war in Bosnia, did you live in Jagodnja?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was that a Muslim village before the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in Jagodnja, were there approximately 45 houses?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is there an adjacent village called Joseva which has
23 approximately 40 houses?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that was also a Muslim village?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And is it right that before the war there were in total about 550
3 to 600 inhabitants in Jagodnja and Joseva?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were these villages in the local commune of Zlijebac?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. JONES: Your Honours, we'll distribute a new map now in order
8 to locate these places. It's the large map similar to the one we used
9 with another witness before.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's give it a number straight away.
11 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: This is going to be Defence Exhibit D8 --
13 THE REGISTRAR: D827, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 827, Mr. Jones.
15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, I'm going to ask you to do two different things
17 with this map. If you look at the map to your left, I want you -- if you
18 don't have a pen, I can give you one. It's actually, I want you to
19 underline Jagodnja and Joseva and then highlight some other places.
20 A. This is Jagodnja.
21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, with due respect --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: The computer monitor mode is not on. I don't know
23 if any of my colleagues have it.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't know if any of my colleagues -- yes,
1 it's come on now. All right. Okay. Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Alic.
3 MR. JONES: Yes. So now I'm going to ask if the witness be given
4 a highlighter, or at least a different coloured pen.
5 Q. Now, Zlijebac , was that a Serb village before the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you circle Zlijebac, please.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. And was Fakovici also a nearby village to your village?
10 A. The distance between Jagodnja and Fakovici was about seven
12 Q. And before the war, was Fakovici a Serb, Muslim, or mixed village?
13 A. It was predominantly Serb. There was a small number of Muslims
14 living there.
15 Q. Right. So if you could circle Fakovici for us in green as well,
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Now, before the war did you go to Fakovici?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you and other Muslims from Jagodnja and Joseva go to cafes
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you go to school in Fakovici?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How well would you say you know Fakovici?
1 A. I know Fakovici because I went to school there for four years,
2 elementary school. And every week I would pass through Fakovici on my way
3 back from Bratunac, because that was an important bus stop on the way.
4 Q. Do you know a place called Zanjevski Potok?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that part of Fakovici?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And before the war, who lived there?
9 A. Muslims. We used to call them Jurks [as interpreted] and Gypsies.
10 Q. These were Gypsies who were Muslim; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, yes. They had Muslim names, but that's what some people
12 called them. I don't think I could venture into that sort of detail.
13 Q. Right. Now, I'm going to ask you on the map to mark the villages
14 in your area which were Serb -- Serb ethnicity before the war. And if you
15 could mark them and then say what you're marking at the same time. The
16 surrounding villages which were Serb before the war.
17 A. We can start from the village of Blazijevici, the village of
18 Godzevici, the village of Klekovici, the village of Caklovici, Bradici,
19 and Jaketici. And then we have Zlijebac, which I have already circled.
20 Down the Drina in the direction of Fakovici one comes across Kutijesi,
21 Boljevici, Radijevici --
22 Q. If you could stop there for a moment. For Radijevici you've
23 encircled an area near the Drina. We see the letters Radijevici, or the
24 word Radijevici, further away from the Drina. Do you have any explanation
25 why that is?
1 A. This village of Radijevici is an old village where no Serbs used
2 to be. The Serbs lived in the field next to the river Drina; that's
3 Radijevici. They all lived there and this population was there before the
5 Q. So that's the old part of Radijevici up in the hills; is that it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And people -- were people living there at the start of the war in
8 Bosnia, in that old part?
9 A. Not according to my information.
10 Q. Now, if you could continue marking in green only the Serb villages
11 which surrounded Jagodnja and Joseva before the war, and you can proceed
12 now from the direction of Fakovici.
13 A. I'm going now in the direction of a Muslim village when you go
14 past Radijevici. This village is called Zanjevo, and then you come across
15 Fakovici, which already has a circle around it.
16 Q. Yes. So don't mark Abdulici or Zanjevo. If you can move on to
17 Mlecva, was that Serb or Muslim before the war?
18 A. It was a Serb village.
19 Q. That probably suffices for now, thank you. You can leave the map
20 there but turn away from it for the moment.
21 Now, before the war, did your family have a business?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was that business?
24 A. My family chopped timber. We had a place, a mini factory, where
25 wood was cut, a mini saw works we used to call it. We would cut up timber
1 or whatever was needed. People came and asked for whatever they needed,
2 and we would do it.
3 Q. Did people come from the whole area, then, or just the local area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The whole area or just locally?
6 A. Not from Fakovici, but away from Fakovici; Zanjevo, Radijevici,
7 everybody came to see us whenever they needed something, and they would
8 get their wood from us.
9 Q. Did you also own a tractor before the war?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you travel the local area with your tractor, doing
12 business in the vicinity?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, the villages you've circled in green and obviously your own
15 villages, would you say you know them well?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Right. Now, the Judges have indicated to us that we have
18 sufficient evidence on the background of the conflict in Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, so I'm not going to ask about tensions or anything of that
20 nature. I'm simply going to ask you this: You've told us how you used to
21 go to cafes in Fakovici. Did there come a time when Muslims were no
22 longer welcome in those cafes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. That was in mid-April, between mid-April and May.
1 Q. And was there still one cafe in Fakovici where you still went?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who owned that cafe?
4 A. The owner was Petko Jovanovic; this is the one that we still went
5 to after we were told that we were no longer welcome in the first one.
6 Q. All right. I'm going to come to the first one in a moment, but
7 Petko Jovanovic, did he do any other good things for you Muslims in that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Yes. What?
11 A. He did good things for us whenever we came to his cafe, as we
12 called it. He would give us a warm welcome, he would give us everything
13 that we needed, and upon our return, since the clashes with the Serb side
14 had already started, he would see us out of the cafe and off in our
15 direction back from Fakovici, the road that we took on the way back,
16 because Serbs would meet us along the road, swear at us. They would sing
17 their own Serb songs, that sort of thing. He would see us through all
18 this trouble.
19 Q. Right. You say when you were coming back -- the direction back
20 from Fakovici. Where were you -- where were you coming from before then?
21 Is this on the way back from Bratunac that would you would go through
22 Fakovici or simply from Fakovici?
23 A. Before, there used to be a bus stop there, and our people who were
24 on their way back from Bratunac would get off there and walk to Jelena.
25 Sometimes we went to the cafe, or sometimes we just walked on.
1 Q. And this Petko Jovanovic would protect you from harassment by
2 Serbs; is that what you're telling us?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what happened to Petko Jovanovic and his --
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand that we are very much in a
7 background phase, but just to be careful about some leading. "Did
8 anything happen to Petko Jovanovic?" If it's a question of time, it
9 appears that with this witness we will have ample time. We're just
10 cautious about leading that might not be necessary.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Sellers.
12 Mr. Jones, please note.
13 MR. JONES: Yes, that's fine. I'll cease leading from now on.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to Petko Jovanovic?
15 A. Yes. According to what people from Abdulici told me, after the
16 expulsion of those people who then came to our villages, Jagodnja and
17 Joseva, they told us that Petko Jovanovic had been expelled from Fakovici
18 in mid-May and that his house was burnt down at the same time as was his
19 cafe. They told us that Petko Jovanovic was at Bajina Basta.
20 Q. And he was a Serb?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And who burnt down his house, if you know?
23 A. According to what those people told us, only the Serbs from
24 Fakovici could have done that.
25 Q. Right. Now, do you know Slavko Jovanovic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you know about him before the war?
3 A. While I was still a student at the Fakovici school, Slavko
4 Jovanovic worked at the school as security, and he worked in the boiler
5 room. He was president of the SDS in Fakovici, and he was in fact one of
6 the organisers of the local branch of the SDS. He encouraged Serb
7 soldiers to be nationalistic and to drive Muslims out of Abdulici and the
8 other Muslim villages in the surrounding area.
9 Q. In early 1992, did you ever see him in a uniform?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What sort of uniform?
12 A. Olive-drab, the one they used in the former JNA.
13 Q. And did you ever see him with a weapon?
14 A. I didn't myself, but people from Abdulici did see him carrying a
15 weapon. When he came to the village in early May, he would come carrying
16 a pistol and automatic rifle slung around his shoulder.
17 Q. Did he own a cafe in Fakovici?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was that cafe called?
20 A. Medena.
21 Q. Now, you mentioned how you were only welcome in one cafe, that of
22 Petko Jovanovic. Were you welcome in the cafe owned by Slavko Jovanovic,
23 as a Muslim?
24 A. No. No. As early as the beginning of April, we were no longer
25 welcome there. Whenever we entered that particular cafe, we were taken
1 aback by what we saw there. There were photographs of Slobodan Milosevic
2 there, caps with kokardas hung along the walls - it's a Serb symbol. It
3 was very difficult to get proper service if you were a Muslim in that
4 cafe. There was nobody to wait on you, and after a while we realised that
5 we were no longer welcome there.
6 Q. And in Fakovici itself before the war, before the war started, did
7 you see any soldiers?
8 A. On one occasion I was going from Bratunac -- it was in mid-March,
9 and I was going from the bus station at Bratunac accompanied by two or
10 three friends. And as we came out of the station, we crossed the bridge
11 and turned in the direction of the school, and we should have turned by a
12 creek going to Jagodnja. And in front of the old school we found quite a
13 few soldiers wearing their olive-drab uniforms. And they were standing in
14 front of the school. We didn't actually linger because we kind of
15 panicked and continued on our way to Jagodnja.
16 Q. And when you say -- I think you said "quite a few." How many,
17 approximately, would you estimate?
18 A. Between 50 and a hundred. So one could see it quite easily with
19 the naked eye; that was our assessment.
20 Q. And what were they doing in front of the old school?
21 A. At that moment when we came along, they were simply standing
22 there. As to what they did next, I didn't see.
23 Q. Did you ever hear anything from anyone about what -- what, if any,
24 military activity was going on in Fakovici in early 1992?
25 A. In the beginning we heard from people from Zanjevo who used to
1 come to Jagodnja and Joseva. And we heard from them that they had some
2 kind of exercises in Fakovici and that they had shooting exercises above
3 Grabovacka Rijeka. It is a creek in fact, called Ruljevici, I believe.
4 It was just above Grabovacka Rijeka itself.
5 Q. Right. Now, you've told us how at a certain time you weren't
6 welcome -- you Muslims weren't welcome in cafes in Fakovici. Did there
7 come a time when Muslims couldn't safely go to Fakovici at all?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When was that?
10 A. It was later. By the end of April, nobody dared go down from
11 Jagodnja and Joseva to Fakovici. After the second half of April.
12 Q. But once you could no longer go into Fakovici, could you still see
13 what was going on in the village from where you were?
14 A. Yes. We could see and some people did go in that direction, and
15 they could observe what went on there. I did not go myself, but it was
16 also confirmed from people from Abdulici, that is to say the events that
17 went on in Fakovici.
18 Q. Well, perhaps you can show us on the map what the closest was that
19 someone from Jagodnja and Joseva could get to Fakovici, where these people
20 went who were looking into the village, if there's some spot that you can
22 A. Yes. There is a slope above Fakovici. It is a hilly area, and
23 you can only walk there. It is inaccessible to any vehicles and it was
24 called stijena, "rocks," 2 or 300 metres, and you could go there and you
25 had a full view of all of Fakovici. And that was on the way to school, in
2 Q. When you say 2 or 300 metres --
3 A. Roughly speaking, this is where it should be.
4 Q. Can you make it larger?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because that's barely visible.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. For the record, the witness puts a cross on
8 the map at 35 minutes of Fakovici. Thank you.
9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now, when you say "2 to 300 metres," what distance are you
11 referring to there?
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 Q. You said that this location, rocks, "stijena," was 2 or 300
14 metres. 2 or 300 metres from where?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Fakovici.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... or what, because
18 I saw one of the guards assisting him with the monitor.
19 MR. JONES: Ah, yes -- can you see -- I won't ask my client a
20 direct question.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear anything.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yeah, there was a problem with the
23 other microphone once again. One of the mikes is not working. I can only
24 see the transcript, but I can't see anything else.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I think -- Usher, see if you can
1 assist. If you can't, then we get a technician.
2 I'm sorry to have interrupted you like this, Mr. Jones.
3 MR. JONES: Not at all.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I saw him getting a little bit agitated.
5 MR. JONES: Yes, it's important for him to follow.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- it's working now. Is it all right now, Usher?
7 No? So we need a technician.
8 Do you want to stop, Mr. Jones, until it's fixed, or shall we
10 It's working now, I think. Is it all right now?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything's fine now.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Good.
13 MR. JONES: Thank you.
14 Q. Yes. This site which you've described, it was 2 or 300 metres
15 from where?
16 A. From Fakovici.
17 Q. And you've described how people would look from there into
18 Fakovici. Was that only with the naked eye or did they have binoculars or
19 any other visual aid?
20 A. It could be seen with the naked eye, but they did have hunting
22 Q. And was there another spot near Jagodnja and Joseva where people
23 could look and see what was happening in Serb villages?
24 A. Yes, there was a place called Mackovac. It's just above Zanjevo.
25 Yeah, above Zanjevo. And Zanjevo Polje and Radovica Potok and part of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Fakovici could be seen from there.
2 Q. Could you also please mark that location on the map, perhaps with
3 a Y to distinguish from the previous X.
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Well, we have another X, but that's fine.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, no, it's not fine.
7 Could you put a circle around that X, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
10 MR. JONES: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Alic --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, the witness put an encircled X
13 to show Zanjevo Polje between -- halfway between Fakovici and Joseva,
14 between Fakovici and Joseva. Thank you.
15 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.
16 Q. You've told us how you had conversations with people from Abdulici
17 on various matters.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you speak to them about what was happening in Fakovici in
20 April and May 1992?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. And what were they telling you about what was going on in -- first
23 of all, in their villages, in Zanjevo and Abdulici?
24 A. They used to tell us that Serbs from Fakovici would come and give
25 them an ultimatum to surrender and leave their villages, and they took
1 their weapons off them. And it was at around the 1st of May.
2 Q. And did there come a time when the Muslims in Zanjevo and Abdulici
3 in fact left their villages?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you know why they left their villages?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you could tell us, please.
8 A. Those people had to leave because they were no longer desirable in
9 that part of Fakovici because they were Muslims.
10 Q. How about Tegare and Orlica. Are you familiar with those places?
11 A. Yes, we're all familiar with those places and we had heard that
12 they, too, had been driven out of their homes between the 1st and the 15th
13 of May. And some people had arrived at Jagodnja.
14 Q. And we probably don't need to go into this in great detail, but
15 did they leave of their own volition or were they forced to leave?
16 A. They were forced to leave by the Serb forces.
17 Q. Now, was there a time when in fact Zanjevo and Abdulici were
18 burned, or the houses there were burned?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When was that?
21 A. It was up until mid-May 1992. Until mid-May 1992 none of the
22 Muslims ever went to Abdulici or Zanjevo because basically all Muslims had
23 been driven away, and they arrived to Jagodnja and Joseva and others went
24 to other places. And there were too many civilians. It was almost
25 impossible to count them all, and nobody was able to have a full overview
1 of where they went, in what direction, that is.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, the burning of these houses in Abdulici and
3 Zanjevo, was that something that you in Jagodnja and Joseva could actually
4 see yourselves?
5 A. It wasn't possible to see from Jagodnja and Joseva because we were
6 on the other side of the hill. It was a hilly area, and from Jagodnja and
7 Joseva you had no visibility, as it were, because we had to go to that
8 place I marked on the map, Mackovac, and from there you could see the
10 And as to these refugees who came from the village of Zanjevo,
11 they told us that the houses had been set on fire, that everything was
12 taken from them, that they were driven out, and that some civilians had
13 been captured and taken in the direction of Fakovici. And they came
14 exhausted, with some torn clothes on their backs, basically, and that was
15 all. And they came during the night, and it was difficult to even imagine
16 what was going on.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, just finally on the -- on whether or not one
18 could see -- sorry, my microphone seems to have switched off. All sorts
19 of technical problems today.
20 MR. JONES: I wonder -- it doesn't -- okay. I'm not hearing it in
21 my headphone.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are hearing you, Mr. Jones.
23 MR. JONES: All right.
24 Q. The burning of houses in Abdulici and Zanjevo, would that have
25 been visible in Fakovici?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Right. Would you say that anyone in Fakovici would be able to see
3 that burning?
4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
6 MS. SELLERS: Of course an objection to this type of hypothetical
7 question; anyone, depending on where they're positioned in Fakovici. I
8 understand Your Honours' position on that, but we would like to state that
9 for the record.
10 MR. JONES: In fact, I'm happy with the previous answer he's
11 given, that it would have been visible in Fakovici.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that's enough, because obviously it
13 depends on who the subject matter would be.
14 MR. JONES: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Subject, rather than subject matter, would be, and
16 where he or she happens to be.
17 MR. JONES: Yes. The fact that it's visible in Fakovici is
18 sufficient for my purposes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. Now, did you receive -- you've mentioned refugees arriving in
22 Jagodnja and Joseva from Zanjevo and Abdulici. Did you later receive
23 refugees from other areas?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you name some of the places where you received refugees from,
1 and this is - to have a time frame - in the first half of 1992.
2 A. Yes. In the beginning of May, the refugees from --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: He -- as I understand, the witness has a problem.
4 What's the problem?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now. There was just some
6 background noise.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So at any rate, the refugees from a
9 place called Skelani who had been driven out of their houses, and some
10 also came from Dobraki, from Resagici, from Tihici, from Daljegosta. All
11 those refugees came in towards Jagodnja and Joseva and mostly at night.
12 They could only move at night, basically, through forests and they were
13 just carrying some handbags and nothing else. They didn't even manage to
14 bring food. And so we had to accept all those refugees in Jagodnja.
15 MR. JONES:
16 Q. Did you also receive refugees from Tegare or Orlica?
17 A. Two or three refugees from Tegare arrived because they had some
18 relatives there, and they stayed for a very short time and then they went
19 somewhere else, I don't know where. And so those places were emptied as
21 Q. Now, did there come a time when there was Serb patrols around
22 Jagodnja and Joseva?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when was that?
25 A. Those Serb patrols could be seen already in the first half of
1 April in Ravni Hrg, around Jagodnja, because Jagodnja and Joseva are
2 surrounded by forest, basically, on all sides. And they were seen at the
3 lake above Jagodnja -- or rather, it's a place we used to call lake. It's
4 a village called Jezero. And those patrols could be seen there on a daily
6 Q. And what were the people wearing who were participating in this
7 patrol -- in these patrols?
8 A. Yes. Those people wore uniforms. They wore military uniforms and
9 they had automatic weapons. Yeah, they had automatic weapons. They were
10 the real Serb soldiers; that's what we called them, Serb soldiers.
11 Q. And do you know where they were coming from, from which area or
12 which villages they were coming from?
13 A. From the direction of Jezero above Jagodnja and Joseva, as I've
14 explained earlier. They came from the direction of Fakovici, and on the
15 other side they were coming from Skelani and the other Serb villages I've
16 mentioned before; Klekovici and the others.
17 Q. Do you have a relative called Mustafa Alic?
18 A. Yes. He is my cousin.
19 Q. Did he encounter one of these patrols?
20 A. Yes. In the middle of April, he went towards Fakovici because he
21 had a hunting rifle, and he had a license for that hunting rifle - he was
22 a hunter, by the way - and at Mackovac he was stopped by Serb soldiers,
23 and they asked him, Why are you going down this road? And he said he
24 wanted to go hunting, but his hunting rifle was taken off him and he was
25 told that it was the Crisis Staff at Fakovici that issued the order on the
1 basis of which Muslims were not around -- allowed to walk around the
2 nearby woods armed. And they said to him that in order to receive a
3 certificate for that rifle he had to contact the Crisis Staff at Fakovici.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned these two places from which you
5 could -- or people from Jagodnja and Joseva could see into Fakovici or
6 part of Fakovici. Was it possible to see the road, Bratunac-Skelani road,
7 from those positions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In early 1992, did you see or did you hear of people seeing
10 military vehicles on the road going through Fakovici?
11 A. Yes, I heard from people that they had seen military vehicles
12 driving towards Fakovici; trucks and transport vehicles or whatever.
13 Military vehicles, at any rate.
14 Q. Right. Now, were you aware, aside from vehicles, of helicopters
15 flying in your area in early 1992?
16 A. Yes. I myself saw a helicopter which came from the area of Jezero
17 and Skelani, and in the valley of Jagodnja, that is to say just below
18 Jagodnja and Joseva, there was a river called Jagodnja and the helicopter
19 was flying in that area towards Fakovici. I saw it at Jagodnja as it flew
21 Q. And when was this?
22 A. It was approximately at the end of March, as far as I can
24 Q. And do you know whether this helicopter was being operated by
25 Serbs or Muslims?
1 A. By Serbs, because Muslims could not have flown that helicopter,
2 according to my knowledge.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, if you could cover it now, it would avoid
4 us putting a question later on, if it did have any markings or
5 distinguishing marks.
6 MR. JONES:
7 Q. Yes, Mr. Alic, you heard the question. Were there any markings on
8 this helicopter that you saw?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn't see any markings?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you either -- did you hear from other people or gather any
13 information as to what these helicopters were doing, flying around in this
15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me, I believe he's testified
16 having seen a helicopter, so I don't know now whether we're talking about
17 helicopters or --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right, Ms. Sellers.
19 Please rephrase your question, Mr. Jones.
20 MR. JONES: Fine.
21 Q. Aside from the helicopter you saw, did you hear about whether
22 there were other helicopters flying in your area in early 1992?
23 A. I didn't see any others, but I did hear about them flying over
24 other areas and around these villages.
25 Q. And do you know what they were doing?
1 A. People from Zanjevo told us that a helicopter landed in Fakovici
2 and they said that it was in order to unload some weapons.
3 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about some specific individuals. Do you
4 know Ognjen Markovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does he have a nickname?
7 A. Bato.
8 Q. And where is he from?
9 A. From Fakovici.
10 Q. Did he come to Jagodnja and Joseva at any time in 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When?
13 A. At some point in mid-April, the first fortnight in April, at any
14 rate, he came to Jagodnja together with an armed and uniformed policeman
15 who was called Dane, and I can't remember his family name. And there were
16 two other people with them. And they came to my sawmill. And we were
17 told we were not allowed to go into the forests and that he had been
18 appointed as some kind of technical manager or a ranger, rather, and that
19 we were not allowed to go into the woods or cut any wood.
20 Q. When he said "you," was he just referring to your family, the
21 family Alic, or something else?
22 A. He meant all Muslims, that they had no business going into the
23 woods. But he came to our place because many Muslims would gather around
24 this sawmill, and so he first drew our attention to this fact and then he
25 turned to the others and said that they had no business going into the
1 woods either.
2 Q. Thank you. And did you know then or suspect what the real reason
3 was or what the main reason was why Muslims were not being allowed to go
4 into the woods?
5 A. Yes. The real reason, as we concluded was -- well, because we had
6 seen Serbs on patrol in the area, we concluded that the forests were full
7 of Serb soldiers, and that was in order to avoid any inconvenient
8 conflicts at that time.
9 Q. All right. Did Ognjen Markovic come back to Jagodnja and Joseva?
10 A. Yes. He came back after a week or ten days. And he asked for all
11 weapons to be surrendered, because there were reserve police officers in
12 our village, and he said that all rifles had to be relinquished to the
13 Crisis Staff in Fakovici and that that applied to hunting rifles as well.
14 Q. And did he -- did he come alone or did he come with others?
15 A. He came alone with a police officer called Stevan, as he had the
16 last time around, with two other people from Fakovici or from Skelani.
17 They said they belonged to the Skelani municipality and that we were part
18 of the municipality, too.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction.
21 What the transcript reflects is the witness saying that he had come with a
22 police officer from Skelani and not a police officer called Stevan.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said Stevan to begin with.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
25 Do you confirm that, Mr. Alic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you confirm what Ms. Vidovic has just pointed
3 out, that you never said that you came with a police officer called
4 Stevan, but that you had come with a police officer from Skelani?
5 MR. JONES: It's not him --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from Skelani.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: From Skelani. All right. Thank you.
8 MR. JONES: Yes, that Ognjen Markovic --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.
10 MR. JONES: But --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's quarter to 4.00.
12 MR. JONES: I'll just clarify --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish what you need to finish and then we'll have a
15 MR. JONES:
16 Q. Yes, that Ognjen Markovic came to Jagodnja and Joseva with a
17 police officer from Skelani; that's your evidence?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. JONES: So we can have a break now.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It will be a 25-minute break, starting
21 from now. That means we will approximately -- start again at 10 minutes
22 or 12 minutes past 4.00. Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, before you proceed, the motion, or I
2 think what is a courtesy copy of the motion is with us. All right. Since
3 this is still a courtesy copy and I don't know if it has been already
4 served on the Prosecution or not, obviously I cannot grab the Prosecution
5 and say, respond today, but you would be required to respond tomorrow,
6 first thing.
7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. To confirm, we have received the
8 courtesy copy, but we'll --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. But obviously you'll need to check your
10 things. So first thing tomorrow we start precisely with this. And if
11 necessary, there will be an oral exchange of arguments and then we'll see
12 what our position will be on the matter. All right.
13 MR. JONES: I thank you, Your Honour. I'm obliged.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MR. JONES: One thing, Your Honour: I was informed during the
16 break that the witness might be concerned that he's going to be here for a
17 longer period than anticipated. I'm not -- I'm not sure -- obviously
18 we're not communicating with the witness, but I just thought I'd say in
19 open Court that by the end of today, certainly by the middle of the day
20 tomorrow I'll have a better idea of how long I'll be and there might be
21 another indication of how long he'll be here in due course.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones. And I think the witness heard
23 me say earlier on today that we'll make an effort -- everyone will make an
24 effort to make sure that he's back home by the weekend. He needs to
25 cooperate, too, and so far I think he has cooperated fully.
1 MR. JONES: Right. And I'm sure we can make progress.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Alic before the break, you said now Ognjen Markovic,
3 Bato, came to Jagodnja and Jaseva with a reserve police from Skelani, and
4 they said that you too were now in Skelani. Now, my question is: Up
5 until then, your villages were in Bratunac municipality, weren't they?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, I see Ms. Vidovic standing. What's your
7 -- microphone, please.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. It's the
9 interpretation again. I don't think my colleague actually said that
10 Ognjen Markovic was a reserve police officer in Skelani but rather that he
11 came with a reserve police officer from Skelani. These are material
12 matters and therefore we insist that the transcript be corrected.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. I think I heard that, too.
14 MR. JONES: Yes, that is what I said.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. So let's proceed, Mr. Jones.
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can repeat your question just for
18 formality's sake and practical reasons.
19 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour.
20 Q. Before the break you said that Ognjen Markovic, Bato, came to
21 Jagodnja with a reserve police officer from Skelani and that they said
22 that they belonged to Skelani municipality and that you now did, too. My
23 question was: Until then, certainly Jagodnja and Joseva were in Bratunac
24 municipality, weren't they?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know what this was about, this idea that your village was
2 now in a new municipality?
3 A. According to Bato Markovic's explanation, these villages were now
4 part of the newly founded municipality of Skelani. And Jagodnja and
5 Joseva, too, were part of Skelani municipality. He said all the way from
6 Bjelovac and down the river Drina and all the way down as far as Skelani,
7 all that now belonged to Skelani municipality and so did we.
8 Q. All right. And you also said how these men said that the reserve
9 policemen in Jagodnja and Joseva had to hand in their weapons to the
10 Crisis Staff in Fakovici. Did they do so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you in Jagodnja and Joseva keep any weapons of any
14 A. We only kept our hunting rifles.
15 Q. And how many rifles, roughly, in Jagodnja and in Joseva?
16 A. There were two in Jagodnja and four in Joseva.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. JONES: We have a new exhibit which we'd like to pass out at
19 this stage with the assistance of the usher.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The usher has just left the room, but --
21 MR. JONES: My apologies. The assistance of the registry. And
22 for the record, the ERN is 03609354 to 03609355. It's a document headed
23 "Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior Serbian Municipality of
24 Skelani, Skelani Public Security Station." And the date is 18 September
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, you'll see a list of names here and you'll see that
2 they were all activated into the Skelani reserve police force on 1 April,
3 1992. And then if you turn to page 2, both B/C/S and English, we see the
4 heading "Branch station in Fakovici," and then there is a list of six
5 names of people who were transferred from the Skelani reserve police force
6 to the Fakovici branch station on 1 April 1992. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And as we saw, this document refers to the Serbian municipality of
9 Skelani. The Serbian municipality. Does that fit with what you were
10 telling us now about Serbs from Fakovici saying that they belonged to
11 Skelani municipality and that you did, too?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And even before the war, was there a link --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sorry. Even before the war - this is dated September 1992 - but
16 before the war was the -- were there links between Fakovici and Skelani?
17 A. Can you please clarify.
18 Q. Yes. Well, in this document we see it's the Skelani public
19 security station and there's a Fakovici -- there's a Fakovici branch
20 office -- branch station, sorry. And as I pointed out the date, 1st of
21 April, 1992, that's obviously before the war, you see that there were
22 people --
23 A. Yes. Before the war, and we know that in the middle of Fakovici
24 there was a police checkpoint as early as April.
25 Q. Right. Thank you. And who is it who set up that checkpoint?
1 A. The checkpoint was set up by Skelani municipality, the one in
3 Q. Yes. Thank you.
4 MR. JONES: I'd just ask for an exhibit number for this document.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly, Mr. Jones. This document, which
6 consists of two pages in the Serbo-Croat version and three pages in the
7 English version, the ERN being 03609354 to 355 is being tendered,
8 received, and marked as Defence Exhibit D828.
9 MR. JONES:
10 Q. Now, just to see how the situation developed from this point on,
11 in Jagodnja and Joseva you've surrendered all but a handful of hunting
12 rifles. You've told us that at this time it was no longer safe for
13 Muslims to go to Fakovici. You're surrounded, as we've seen --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As we've seen on the map, your village was surrounded by Serb
16 villages --
17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me. I would really think that
18 that might be a mischaracterisation. I've seen that the witness has
19 pointed out some Serb villages. He's not testified as anything being
20 surrounded and that's not what I see from his geographical marking. If
21 counsel would like to pose some questions and if we want to make that a
22 bit clearer, I would just ask that he not be misleaded [sic] on that if
23 that's not his testimony today.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You are right in toto, yeah, I think
25 this can be so, but --
1 MR. JONES: We can do it with the map.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- on the other hand, when the witness was asked in
3 the beginning to mark the Serb villages, I remember Mr. Jones telling the
4 witness very clearly the Serb villages around Jagodnja and the other,
5 Joseva --
6 MR. JONES: Yes, I can --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So it is a mischaracterisation and it isn't at the
8 same time. So it's -- but I think there's no harm in raising the matter.
9 I don't really think I can consider it as an objection in its own right,
10 but I think it's in the interest of Mr. Jones himself to address it.
11 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, I certainly will address
13 Q. If you look at the map, Mr. Alic, you've circled on that map the
14 Serb villages which were, if not surrounding, which were in the vicinity
15 of Jagodnja and Joseva. You've pointed out two villages, Zanjevo and
16 Abdulici, which were Muslim villages. You also told us that those --
17 Muslims left those villages.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So when did they leave the villages of Abdulici and Zanjevo,
21 A. In the first half of May, 1992.
22 Q. Right. So taking it from that period, after Muslims had left
23 Zanjevo and Abdulici, and looking at the map, isn't it right that Jagodnja
24 and Joseva had on certainly three sides only Serb villages? And I'll
25 specific them: Mlecva, Fakovici, Radijevici, Boljevici, Kutijesi,
1 Zlijebac, Jaketici, Bradici, Caklovici, Godzevici, Klekovici and
2 Blazijevici. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. And if I may explain. By your leave, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jagodnja and Joseva are surrounded
6 on all sides, including the road leaving Jagodnja and Joseva, with just
7 woodlands around the two villages. And the distance to the first Muslim
8 village is about 10 kilometres. I said at the outset that in the forests
9 around Hrg, Ravni Hrg, Serb patrols had been observed moving about. So to
10 all practical intents, both villages were entirely surrounded.
11 MR. JONES:
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 MR. JONES:
15 Q. And you've also told us how all but a few hunting rifles were
16 handed in to the Serbs. Now, my question is: Following that --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Following that, did the Serbs leave you in peace or how did things
20 A. They didn't leave us in peace for a second. Early May, even as
21 early as late April, there was shooting from the Ravni Hrg area. A
22 farmer, or rather a shepherd who was there watching the sheep, was
23 wounded. That was in late April, or sometime between mid-April and late
24 April, he was seriously wounded in his leg, and this was done by Serbs
25 patrolling the area. They fired at this shepherd of ours and they kept
1 firing away around the woods all the way through the night, using a wide
2 variety of weapons.
3 Q. Yes. What sort of weapons? If you can name a couple of those
4 weapons for us.
5 A. They had automatic weapons, automatic rifles, M-48, the old kind
6 with a long range, could be used to hit targets as far away as 1.200
7 metres; they had machine-guns and automatic rifles.
8 Q. Were these hunting weapons?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Does the term "village guards" mean anything to you?
11 A. Yes, it does. It's called village guards and we know what that
13 Q. Yes. And were these weapons that the Serbs were using to shoot
14 into your village, were they the sorts of weapons that village guards
15 would have?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, the Prosecution may suggest that the Serbs were shooting into
18 your village even though you'd disarmed, for all intents and purposes,
19 because they were afraid of Muslims, because they were frightened of you.
20 Is that a realistic suggestion?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would you care to elaborate on that?
23 A. There would have been no reason for the Serbs to be afraid of us.
24 We remained in those two villages and we had no intention of offending
25 anyone, let alone harming or, in the worst of cases, killing anyone.
1 There was panic among us. If it had been our intention to do anything
2 like that, we would not have surrounded [as interpreted] our weapons to
3 begin with when the police came over and asked for it. We wouldn't have
4 done anything like that. We would have resisted their arrival when they
5 first came to ask for us to hand over our weapons.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JONES: And for the transcript, I think it's "surrendered our
8 weapons" rather than "surrounded."
9 Q. So why were they attacking, the Serbs, if you know?
10 A. What we believed, or rather, what I believed at the time, the
11 Serbs attacked us in such a way as to expel us, as they had done elsewhere
12 earlier on. We were also told by the Serbs who had threatened us that we
13 were to leave Jagodnja and Joseva and that we should leave the Drina area,
14 go at least as far as 40 kilometres from the river itself, and that we
15 would no longer be allowed to remain in those areas for the simple fact
16 that we were Muslims.
17 Q. And who said that to you specifically?
18 A. A neighbour of ours, Vidoje Maksimovic, came to our village and
19 asked us to surrender so that we might be escorted out of the area. Our
20 people asked for some sort of guarantee, whether they could guarantee our
21 security on the way out, and he said that he could offer no guarantee.
22 The only thing he could guarantee was to get us as far as Zlijebac and
23 Fakovici, but nothing else. He told us explicitly that we were to go as
24 far as 40 kilometres out of the area.
25 Q. And did he deliver that message to you that you were to go out 40
1 kilometres out of the area in his own capacity or was that a message he
2 was delivering on someone else's behalf?
3 A. This is something that he told us on behalf of Skelani
5 Q. Now, 40 kilometres is obviously quite a distance. How far is
6 Srebrenica from the Drina, if you know?
7 A. The distance must be, in my estimate at least, about 20 or 25
9 Q. So according to what he said, there should be no Muslims in
10 Srebrenica either?
11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
13 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I would ask that Defence stop not only
14 suggesting to the witness, because it's obvious just from what the
15 questions the Defence has asked the witness and the answers, that that was
16 not the suggestion. That might be an opinion that's being reached. The
17 only thing I would ask, that the commentary of Defence counsel as to
18 whether 40 kilometres is a long distance or not, the witness might very
19 much agree that it is a long distance, or he might say, no, I look at 100
20 kilometres as being long. If we would stop having commentary by the
21 Defence witness [sic] on the evidence that's given and allow the witness,
22 Mr. Alic, to please continue his testimony straightforward.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Distance and relativity of distance is not that
24 important. But the other one, the other point raised is important.
25 Yes, Mr. Jones.
1 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I think Ms. Sellers is slightly
2 overstating it to say that she ask that the commentary stop being given as
3 if I am -- as if this has been some repeated offence on my part.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 MR. JONES: It's one comment which she's free to object to, but
6 let's not have her characterising my examination-in-chief unfairly either.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you were right there, too. But this
8 Srebrenica --
9 MR. JONES: Yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and --
11 MR. JONES: The other matter is --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Approach in another manner if you want to, or
13 abandon it. It's up to you, of course.
14 MR. JONES: Just to understand what the objection was in terms of
15 Srebrenica --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection was, as I understand --
17 MR. JONES: Is it that it's obvious that all the Muslims would
18 have to leave Srebrenica because it's within 40 kilometres? If that's
19 obvious, then I'm happy to move on.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but I -- again, I mean, I think you have to put
21 the question in a different manner. I'm trying to find it.
22 MR. JONES: That's fine, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: To be honest with you, I just lost it now.
24 MR. JONES: I can revisit it as a matter of pure --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You said 40 kilometres is obviously quite a
1 distance. Ms. Sellers objected to that. I don't attach that much
2 importance to that because 40 kilometres is a distance, for someone coming
3 from Malta, like me, it's twice the length of the island, so you can
4 imagine that it is quite a distance. But I don't attach that much
5 importance to that -- to that point --
6 MR. JONES: Let me approach --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But then you said: How far is Srebrenica from the
8 Drina? And he said about 20 to 25 kilometres. And then your question
9 was: "So according to what he said, there should be no Muslims in
10 Srebrenica either."
11 MR. JONES: It follows as a matter of pure logic.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But you're drawing the conclusion for him. Maybe
13 the conclusion that he drew at the time was that Srebrenica did not come
14 into it at all.
15 MR. JONES: I'll put the question.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because Srebrenica has got separate characteristics
17 and qualities of its own.
18 MR. JONES: I'll approach it in a different way.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I suggest. Because otherwise, it's
20 harmless. We'll still get there, so ...
21 MR. JONES:
22 Q. When Vidoje Maksimovic said on behalf of Skelani municipality that
23 Muslims weren't to live, or had to leave, an area 40 kilometres from the
24 Drina, did you understand or would you understand that to mean Srebrenica,
25 based on its distance from the Drina?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, leaving Srebrenica aside, that would mean, would
3 it not, did you understand it this way, that certainly Muslims living
4 along the Drina in Zanjevo, Abdulici, Tegare, would no longer be allowed
5 by the Serbs to live in their homes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you've testified that in fact they were forced to leave their
8 homes by the Serbs.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Now, you've told us earlier about how refugees came to
11 Zanjevo, and you mentioned a number of places; Skelani, Dobraki, Tihici,
12 and I think you described how they came at night. Were these just adults
13 or were they just men, women, children; who exactly came?
14 A. As I stated previously, there were whole villages that were being
15 driven out; women, men, and children. That's what happened in early May:
16 People left the area for fear of shooting, for anger, because they had
17 been threatened, because they'd heard the songs that in themselves
18 affected the population in a negative way and made people flee. They
19 would arrive during rainy nights - it was a very rainy spring - people
20 were hungry, people had nothing to wear. They were facing a disaster.
21 It's difficult to describe all of this at once.
22 Q. Thank you. Just one clarification. You mentioned that they felt
23 threatened because they'd heard songs and because of fear of shooting.
24 Was that all that made them leave their villages?
25 A. Yes. Serb soldiers would come to the villages. They would drive
1 people out, they would loot. There's nothing they didn't do. They would
2 catch those who were a bit better off. That's what happened in Jagodnja
3 and Joseva. People were literally driven out of the villages.
4 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, roughly how many refugees came to
5 Jagodnja and Joseva in the summer of 1992?
6 A. In the summer of 1992, or rather in May, until as late as mid-May,
7 all the villages had been emptied. All the people had been driven out of
8 those villages. In my estimate, between 500 and 1.000 people passed
9 through my village to the extent that I could notice. There were between
10 50 and 100 refugees in my house alone, both day and night. I myself had
11 nowhere to sleep. We even used the stables, the cowsheds, and some other
12 outbuildings that we had. We put some people up at the school building,
13 which was still open at the time, and people literally had to be
14 accommodated there. They would spend nights in the open sometimes or
15 would leave and go elsewhere once they had realised that they couldn't all
16 fit there. They'd brought no clothes along, no blankets, no food to have
17 around, simply because they hadn't had the time to bring these things with
19 Q. Now, was anyone in Jagodnja and Joseva registering these people,
20 registering their names and keeping track of who was arriving?
21 A. No. No, it was just impossible to have a list of all these people
22 because they were coming from Abdulici, Zanjevo, Skelani, a place called
23 Buradji. They had to come through the forest. From all over the place.
24 As they fled their homes, they came to us, and it was simply impossible to
25 keep a proper record of all that, and nobody even attempted it.
1 Q. Thank you. And if you could keep your answers slightly shorter,
2 otherwise we might have difficulty making progress.
3 Now, you've mentioned shooting with various firearms into your
4 village. Did there ever come a time when your village was attacked by
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And could you explain for us briefly where the artillery was
8 firing from and if you know the calibre of the artillery.
9 A. In the first half of May, the village of Joseva was shelled from
10 Fakovici, from Bijeli Kamen, Buradji. And infantry was shooting at us
11 from the surrounding forests.
12 Q. And from Fakovici do you know what artillery was being used?
13 A. Mortars. 80- and 120-millimetre mortars.
14 Q. Were those mortars in Fakovici, the 80-millimetre and
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then Bijeli Kamen, what was the calibre of the artillery
18 firing from there, if you know?
19 A. The calibre was 80 millimetre.
20 Q. Now, how do you actually know that artillery was firing from
22 A. The refugees were still coming from that direction, and they knew
23 that Joseva and Jagodnja were being shelled, and they told us about it.
24 And as to Bijeli Kamen, we could see it through our binoculars. We could
25 see -- by using binoculars you could see the mortars at Bijeli Kamen ,
1 because we did have this improvised binoculars. Actually, they're hunting
3 Q. Was anyone in your villages - and when I say "your villages," I'm
4 referring to Jagodnja and Joseva - was anyone killed in these artillery
6 A. Yes. Two civilians, elderly people; Sacir Ibrahimovic and Sahiba
7 Habic. They were around 70 years old.
8 Q. Now, was there at some stage an infantry attack on your villages?
9 A. Not on that day.
10 Q. Was there one later? And please tell us what month we're in.
11 A. May 1992. That is to say after six or seven days, I can't
12 remember exactly, the shelling started up all over again at Joseva and
13 then the infantry attacks followed from the direction of Fakovici,
14 Radijevici, Boljevici, Zlijebac, and Bijeli Kamen. And there was a fierce
15 attack, I mean all available weaponry was being used, and I was at
17 Q. Yes, that's what I was going to ask you. Where did you observe
18 this from?
19 A. When the actual shelling of the village of Joseva started,
20 together with a group of people, perhaps four or five of them, I climbed
21 up to a place from where you could see the area of Joseva - the place is
22 called Bradva [phoen] - and there was a thicket there, and we were hiding
23 there. And in the course of that infantry attack, we noticed Serb soldiers
24 coming from Jezero, that is to say the same direction as Fakovici, and
25 with the naked eye we could actually recognise some of them, and we could
1 hear their orders.
2 Q. Yes. Thank you. I'm going to take it one step at a time.
3 Firstly, this place called Jezero, how far is that from Jagodnja?
4 A. It is -- well, look, it's a hill. And you have to understand that
5 Jagodnja is in a hilly area. So it is a pass kind of thing, and there was
6 a small lake there. And right below there are fields and then the houses.
7 So, it was 3, 4, 500 metres. I can't really be precise there, but it's
8 fairly close.
9 MR. JONES: Yes, just to distinguish it. We're familiar with
10 another Jezero, Your Honours, and just to make clear that's a different
12 Q. Now, you mentioned what you could see with the naked eye. Now,
13 did you just have the naked eye or were you using these improvised or
14 hunting binoculars that day in your group of three or four people?
15 A. Yes. Yes. We had the hunting binoculars, that is to say my
16 neighbour, who was a hunter, had those binoculars, and he was present
17 there as well.
18 Q. And you mentioned "Serb soldiers coming from Jezero, that is to
19 say the same direction from Fakovici," I'm quoting from the transcript.
20 Were these soldiers in uniforms or in civilian clothes?
21 A. Yes. Almost all of them were wearing uniforms, as far as I could
23 Q. Were they armed?
24 A. They were.
25 Q. And how many of them were there, approximately?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Approximately -- between 50 and a hundred, as far as we could see
2 with the naked eye. It stretched from above the village of Joseva where
3 there is forest, and then the pass, and then the field. And as they were
4 coming out of the woods, they dispersed and we could hear their orders
5 from their commanding officers.
6 Q. Okay. Now, when you've started describing this you've described
7 how infantry came from different directions. You've been describing these
8 soldiers coming from Fakovici. Are these 50 to 100 people coming from
9 Fakovici or are they coming from all around?
10 A. Those people were coming from that direction, from Fakovici. I
11 don't know whether there were any people from Radijevici, I don't know,
12 but they came from that direction, as I said. And the others were coming
13 from the other side, from Zlijebac, Bijeli Kamen, and Godzevici,
14 descending from that part.
15 Q. I'm sorry, the transcript isn't entirely clear, so I want to make
16 this absolutely clear: The 50 to 100 people, were they coming from
17 Fakovici or were they coming from other places?
18 A. These 50 to 100 people were coming directly from Fakovici and that
20 Q. Fine. And then for the other people --
21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
23 MS. SELLERS: I'm happy that the witness has been able to offer
24 the testimony, but I believe that Defence counsel before said that --
25 asked the question and the response that he got was that they were coming
1 from Jezero, the direction of Fakovici. So could we just clarify now
2 exactly are we changing that testimony or are we trying to refine it, so
3 that we can understand, as Defence counsel would want us.
4 MR. JONES: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it can be addressed very simply. I do
6 understand your point, Ms. Sellers.
7 MR. JONES: May I say one thing?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: The moment we establish where Zlijebac, Bijeli
9 Kamen, Godzevici, and the other places, and Radijevici, we know where it
10 is. The moment we establish where those other places are, more or less we
11 can see whether the witness is just confirming what he said earlier or
12 whether he is --
13 MR. JONES: Well, he certainly isn't changing anything.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so.
15 MR. JONES: I want to make clear, Your Honour, the transcript,
16 there was an ambiguity in the answer. The answer was clear: "These
17 people were coming from that direction, from Fakovici. I don't know
18 whether there were any people from Radijevici ..." is a separate phrase,
19 so it was very important for me simply to clarify that ambiguity, and
20 that's what I was trying to achieve, because otherwise one might read, "I
21 don't know whether they were coming from Fakovici." It's very important
22 so I'm going to approach it very carefully, step by step.
23 Q. First of all, you have said that these 50 to 100 people were
24 coming from Fakovici. You also mentioned Jezero. Can you tell us why you
25 say that the people were coming from Fakovici?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because Judge Eser has got a small
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps it would help if you ask first the witness
5 to mark on the map more or less where he believes this Jezero is in the
6 vicinity of Jagodnja and that should solve -- you should solve the
8 MR. JONES: Yes.
9 Q. If you would, please, Mr. Alic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And then of course, Mr. Jones, you go ahead with
11 your question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And could you kindly put that X in a square, please.
14 Could you put that X in a square. Put a square around it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And so -- can you write "Jezero" next to
17 it, "Jezero."
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. Thank you. Now --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Alic.
23 And I thank you, Mr. Jones, for being patient with us. Perhaps
24 you can proceed now with -- and my apologies to you for having interrupted
1 MR. JONES: Not at all, Your Honour, I do want this evidence to be
2 crystal clear.
3 Q. And I'm going back to the very first answer you gave, and you said
4 "In the course of that infantry attack, we noticed Serb soldiers coming
5 from Jezero, that is to say the same direction from Fakovici." That was
6 the first answer the witness said, so there's to be no doubt that that's
7 what he said. Please explain to us why you say that soldiers coming from
8 Jezero is the direction of Fakovici.
9 A. These soldiers who were coming -- I mean, I said they were coming
10 from Fakovici because there was no other place they could have possibly
11 come from. Soldiers could only have come to that place from Fakovici. It
12 wasn't possible for soldiers to come from anywhere else but just from the
13 direction of Fakovici because that place was above Fakovici and we knew
14 full well that they could only have come from there. And I also recognise
15 some of the soldiers from Fakovici.
16 Q. Yes. Well, tell us now who you recognised from Fakovici.
17 A. I recognised Djoko Djokic and Slavko Jovanovic.
18 Q. Right. And I am going to come back to those people, but still,
19 just in terms of the numbers of soldiers who attacked you, your village.
20 You've said that it was the soldiers coming from the direction of
21 Fakovici, but you also earlier mentioned soldiers coming from a bunch of
22 other locations on the other side. I can check the transcript -- in fact,
23 I'll do that. Yes. You said: "And the others were coming from the other
24 side, Zlijebac, Bijeli Kamen and Godzevici."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So how many soldiers were coming from those directions? How many
3 A. Not from those directions. We were focussing on that group only,
4 I myself did. But from those directions, they were entering the village
5 of Jaseva from below and there was a considerable presence of those
6 soldiers. I mean, including the village Bradici, Caklovici, and Jaketici,
7 and all villages were entering Joseva.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think the
9 transcript is quite clear. What the witness said in fact when he said not
10 from these directions, he said: I wasn't focussing on those directions,
11 and it doesn't seem to have made it into the transcript.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Perhaps he can repeat himself what he said.
13 MR. JONES: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asked, Mr. Alic, by Mr. Jones to state how
15 many soldiers were coming from those directions, that's Zlijebac, Bijeli
16 Kamen, and the other place, I forgot what the name is.
17 MR. JONES: Godzevici.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Godzevici. What was your answer? What is your
19 answer to that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I answered that. I wasn't in a
21 position to see from where I was how many soldiers were coming from that
22 direction. They were entering the village from below Joseva, and I'm
23 talking about the soldiers coming from that direction.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.
25 Is that --
1 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- clear enough? All right.
3 MR. JONES: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, you've mentioned that you recognised Slavko Jovanovic and
5 Djoko Djokic. They were from where?
6 A. Yes, from Fakovici.
7 Q. Did you know Djoko Djokic before the war?
8 A. Yes. As a student at the primary school of Fakovici, Djoko Djokic
9 was the teacher. He used to teach physics and mathematics.
10 Q. And how often did you see him when you were a student at the
11 primary school and he was a teacher?
12 A. Well, on every working day.
13 Q. And over how many years?
14 A. Four years. Plus when I went to school in Bratunac as well
15 because every Sunday I -- or rather, every week on Friday I would travel
16 through Fakovici where I would get off, and that's where I used to see
17 him. So for three years throughout the time that I was attending school
18 at Bratunac.
19 Q. How familiar were you with his physical appearance?
20 A. I knew him very well because he used to be my teacher. And he
21 used to wear a beard very often and I could recognise him easily on that
23 Q. And were you familiar with his voice?
24 A. Yes. I was familiar with his voice and his gait, the manner in
25 which he moved in general.
1 MR. JONES: If Your Honours would give me one moment.
2 I'm afraid I can't find it at the moment in the transcript.
3 Q. But tell us what precisely you saw and heard when you saw Djoko
4 Djokic and Slavko Jovanovic.
5 A. Yes. In that general panic on our part, because we were rather
6 frightened, I mean there was this considerable shooting, we spotted the
7 soldiers as they were coming out of the forest and moving in the direction
8 of Joseva, and I recognised those men, the ones I've mentioned. And I
9 could hear Slavko Jovanovic issuing orders, and he was telling them to
10 enter the village of Joseva. And we were putting up no resistance at all.
11 Our fighters were not present in Joseva, or any other group that could
12 have put up any resistance, so they entered the village. And the order
13 was to set everything on fire and to kill as many as they could.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am really sorry I
16 keep interrupting, but for the second time the witness has said something.
17 He said that the order was for them to start shooting, and he had said it
18 before. And it has not mentioned -- and this has not been mentioned in
19 the transcript. So it was the way the fighters were supposed to enter the
20 village, the formation, the military formation, aimed at shooting.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 Do you confirm that, Mr. Alic, that that is exactly what you said
23 before? I'm only asking you because Ms. Vidovic is suggesting that some
24 of the things that you stated did not show up in the transcript.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, in the beginning
1 when I first started recounting this story, I said that they were ordered
2 to get organised in a military formation in order to arrive at firing
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- yes, Ms. Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. Let me do it myself.
7 Did you effectively hear any orders to shoot?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard the orders, and that's
9 what I was trying to explain, the way this order was given.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can leave it at that now.
11 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the way in which these
13 soldiers were presented was important. It said they were deployed in a
14 firing position; it's not a military formation, it is a firing position.
15 So the interpreters are not doing a proper job, apparently.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: That has been entered into the record now. So it is
17 important, yes, of course, I recognise that.
18 Let's continue, Mr. Jones.
19 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. One matter. You said that - it's off the screen now - "our
21 fighters were not in Joseva." Can you explain what you meant by that.
22 A. The hunting rifles that were left behind -- I mean, the people
23 collected those hunting rifles and fled the village and they put up no
24 resistance whatsoever. And not a single person fired a single bullet.
25 Q. Did you actually have a group of fighters in Joseva at that time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, you've mentioned what you heard Slavko Jovanovic saying. Did
3 you hear Djoko Djokic saying anything?
4 A. Yes. Djoko Djokic kept repeating for them to continue towards
5 Joseva and to set fire on everything they could possibly set fire to.
6 Q. And who was he saying that to?
7 A. He was saying this to the Serb soldiers.
8 Q. Right. And did -- did the Serb soldiers in fact carry out the
9 orders to shoot and set fire to buildings?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you actually see with your own eyes the Serbs actually
12 shooting people?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Describe for us what you saw.
15 A. From where we were, the place called Bradva, that is we could see
16 immediately they came out of the woods and they entered the village itself
17 and the torching of houses started off straight away, the killing of
18 cattle. And from where I was standing, one can see with the naked eye a
19 group of civilians who were crossing a crossroads at the centre of the
20 village. There were women and two children there, and they approached
21 those soldiers very calmly. And all of a sudden we heard shots being
22 fired by the soldiers. And so they mowed them all down, all of the people
23 who happened to be there, at close range.
24 Q. Do you know the family -- or do you know the names of the women
25 and two children who were shot, mowed down?
1 A. I can't remember the names of the children exactly. It was a
2 family called Paraganlija. There was a mother-in-law with her two
3 daughters-in-law and their two children, and according to other neighbours
4 and a man from one of these families, the two women, the two
5 daughters-in-law were actually pregnant.
6 Q. And at what range did they get shot, how close?
7 A. It was so close, perhaps 10 metres, because afterwards the
8 neighbours told us that those women worked for Serbs in the surrounding
9 villages, Bradici and Zlijebac, and they thought that they wouldn't be
10 killed and that's why they approached these soldiers quite calmly. But in
11 spite of that, an indescribable event took place that is simply very hard
12 to describe.
13 Q. Now, you have described how you were focussing on a group of
14 soldiers who came from Jezero from the direction of Fakovici. The
15 soldiers who shot these pregnant women and the children, were they from
16 that group, from Fakovici, or from some other group?
17 A. Yes, approximately. The people who came from the upper side and
18 from the lower side of the village, it encompassed the other hamlets of
19 Joseva, Mesanovici, just before Joseva. But I can't actually confirm
20 specifically at the moment. It was possible that others were involved,
21 but 90 per cent it was people who had come from the direction of Fakovici.
22 Q. Right. And you've mentioned that you heard Djoko Djokic telling
23 soldiers to move on, to burn and to kill. And you've mentioned Slavko
24 Jovanovic giving orders. These soldiers, do you know whether they were in
25 Djoko Djokic's group or in Slavko Jovanovic's group?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
2 MS. SELLERS: Right, Your Honour, I haven't heard any testimony --
3 MR. JONES: Can the witness --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I haven't heard any testimony about
6 groups of the two, and unless there is testimony that the two men had two
7 groups and that can be clarified, I think it would be difficult for
8 Mr. Alic to understand the question.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, I think you would need to address
11 MR. JONES: Okay.
12 Q. Let's start with Slavko Jovanovic. You said: "And I could hear
13 Slavko Jovanovic issuing orders and he was telling them to enter the
14 village of Joseva."
15 Now, who was he issuing orders to?
16 A. To the Serb soldiers.
17 Q. Right --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may be allowed to
19 clarify something.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Go ahead, Mr. Alic, that's what you
21 are here for.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said I saw Slavko Jovanovic
23 and Djoko Djokic who arrived from one direction, but I said nothing about
24 the two groups. I talked about this one direction and about them
25 deploying themselves in a firing position.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. That confirms exactly the validity of
2 Ms. Sellers' objection. I think you need to address it -- address it in
3 whichever way you want. I think you can even put direct questions in this
4 regard. It's not going to do any harm. Provided we do have a
5 clarification, Mr. Jones.
6 MR. JONES:
7 Q. So Slavko Jovanovic was issuing orders to Serb soldiers. Was he
8 some kind of a commander, as far as you could tell, in this action?
9 A. According to the orders he gave, yes, that appeared to be the
11 Q. And does the same apply to Djoko Djokic?
12 A. Well, they were in the same group, so probably Djoko Djokic was a
13 commander of sorts, too. Whether a minor group or a major group is not
14 something that I know. I wouldn't venture into that because I wasn't
15 there where they were giving orders directly, telling people what to do,
16 but they were both telling soldiers what to do and issuing them with
18 Q. Right. So dealing with that - and you've used the word "group"
19 now, they were in the same group, Djoko Djokic and Slavko Jovanovic - my
20 question was: The killings of the Paraganlija family, was that done by
21 this group of soldiers who were being issued commands by Djoko Djokic and
22 Slavko Jovanovic or was it by some other people?
23 A. The group that I've described, the group that comprised Slavko
24 Jovanovic and Djoko Djokic, they came from the upper side and entered the
25 village. It was a bit further up from where we were, too far perhaps to
1 say -- to see that it was Slavko Jovanovic of all people, but yes, that
2 group was there.
3 Q. That group was where?
4 A. Where the civilians were killed.
5 Q. Did they kill those pregnant women because they were afraid of the
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: How would the witness know this??
9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's to show the ridiculousness of the
10 idea that the Serbs were massacring people because of fear.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But how does he know --
12 MR. JONES: We can ask him to elaborate.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 MR. JONES:
15 Q. Do you know why they killed those women? Can you think of any
17 A. The reason could have been that they'd been ordered to kill
18 everything that moved and everything they came across in the village
19 itself. So that's why the women were killed, quite literally.
20 Q. Right, because they'd been ordered to kill.
21 Now, how many houses were burned in Joseva that day?
22 A. Yes.
23 In my estimate, everything burned down that was flammable. There
24 was certain houses that were built concrete that just didn't catch fire,
25 but I would say roughly 90 per cent of the entire village burned down.
1 Q. 90 per cent of the village of Joseva?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did this attack affect the people in Jagodnja and Joseva?
4 A. The attack horrified all those who were in Joseva who had fled to
5 Jagodnja. There was panic among these people and no one was aware of what
6 the others were doing, how they should go about burying the dead bodies,
7 and there was a person there who was deaf and dumb. At his own threshold
8 he was shot to death and we had to bury his body later on, because part of
9 the body had been burned, incinerated, along with the house. He was lying
10 on the steps, so part of his leg had been burned to a cinder. We buried
11 some of those and those who were just passing through Joseva as well.
12 Livestock were killed, too.
13 Q. Right. So in addition to -- you've mentioned in the Paraganlija
14 family, I think it was the mother-in-law, two pregnant women, two
15 children, you've mentioned this deaf and dumb person, Fehim Dugonjic. Was
16 anyone else killed that day?
17 A. Yes, an elderly man and another younger man who was underage. He
18 was killed in a shed with a bullet through his forehead, but the shed had
19 not been burned.
20 Q. And how did you feel at this stage, the villagers in Jagodnja and
21 Joseva, about the Serbs in Fakovici after this attack?
22 A. It's difficult to explain the pressure that the people were
23 feeling, the anger and the need to escape. We had to evacuate the entire
24 village of Jagodnja. Our children and our women, we had to move them into
25 the forest in order to set up camp or something like that. We had to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 build makeshift houses - tents, if you like - right there in the middle of
2 the woods in order to prevent the same thing happening that had happened
3 in Joseva, because we expected that Jagodnja itself would be attacked any
5 Q. And did you do anything to give you advance warning of when an
6 attack was going to come?
7 A. What exactly do you mean by "advance warning"? Advance warning to
9 Q. Did anyone keep a lookout to see if the Serbs were going to attack
11 A. Yes. People discussed this, the people who had fled Joseva. They
12 asked to meet in a certain place in Jagodnja, and we had agreed for a
13 group of people to try to put up some sort of resistance to avoid the same
14 thing happening again that had happened at Joseva. So we appointed a
15 person to lead that group. His name was Asim Smajlovic, he was a
16 well-respected person. We organised a small group of people who were then
17 to observe the area around Joseva and Jagodnja in case of a repeated
18 attack, to see whether we could avoid civilians being killed and
20 Q. You mentioned Asim Smajlovic. What did he do before the war?
21 A. Asim Smajlovic was president of the Zlijebac local commune.
22 That's before the war. He was a well-respected citizen, honest, a hard
23 worker. So that's why we appointed him.
24 Q. Right. Were you actually able to dig trenches or anything like
25 that around your villages?
1 A. It was impossible to have lines established around our village, be
2 it trenches or anything else; it's an enormous area. It would have taken
3 an enormous number of men to cover the area and to cut off all the paths
4 and roads along which Serb soldiers could have come.
5 Q. Now, you've told us how you had, I think it's six or so, hunting
6 rifles. You had been attacked by a large number of Serb soldiers, armed
7 Serb soldiers. If the Serbs came back, what was your plan? Did you have
8 a plan?
9 A. We had no plan at all. We were struck by panic, fear, and anger.
10 We were too listless to be making plans, nor was it our intention to make
11 a plan. It wasn't our intention to resist. This was a mighty force of
12 soldiers, armed to their teeth. We had no intention of resisting. We
13 just believed that observers would be useful to notify the people at
14 Jagodnja in good time so that at least they could escape.
15 Q. Right. And where would they escape to?
16 A. To the woods. To the woods. There was nowhere else for us to go,
17 just there.
18 Q. Now, you've described how shelters were made in the woods. Were
19 people having to cook in the woods?
20 A. Yes, they were. Now, this applies to all the other needs,
21 everything that a family might need, we had to make do with what we had in
22 the woods. We had to go perhaps 1 or 2 kilometres further afield and
23 there was a risk that anyone could be injured or killed, because where we
24 were there was no running water at all.
25 Q. You had to go 1 or 2 kilometres to get water I understand from the
1 answer. I don't think it was well interpreted.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it safe to get water from there?
4 A. Yes. Let me tell you: Nothing was safe any longer in the area
5 that we are talking about. Even the camp in the woods or the civilians
6 there, nobody was safe let alone someone who was going elsewhere to fetch
7 water, to other villages, perhaps. Nothing was safe any longer.
8 Q. Right. Now, as far as these lookouts were concerned, people
9 looking out to prevent another massacre, were people ordered to stand as
10 lookouts or --
11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
13 MS. SELLERS: I object to Defence counsel referring to a
14 massacre. We've described five or six killings, and with utmost respect,
15 I think we should keep our terminology in perspective of the testimony of
16 Mr. Alic.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
18 What's your reaction to that, Mr. Jones?
19 MR. JONES: I think that's an appalling answer. It's certainly a
20 massacre of pregnant women and children. It's not a matter of quantity,
21 it's a matter of the quality of the killing, and I believe this witness
22 has used the expression "massacre," and I'm going to check that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But apart from the fact that he may have used
24 the word "massacre" himself, I think that one or two persons could be
25 massacred, denoting the way in which they are killed, actually. Let's
1 proceed. Let's not waste or lose time, Mr. Jones.
2 MR. JONES: It wasn't me who raised this --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I'm suggesting, in other words, to forget
4 looking back into the records to see what the witness said and let's move,
5 because to me, a massacre means also -- is descriptive of the way --
6 MR. JONES: Yes, that's as I understand it. In any event, to move
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go ahead.
9 MR. JONES:
10 Q. Were people ordered to stand as lookouts to prevent further
11 killings or was it a voluntary activity?
12 A. There were no orders being given in our group. Nobody ordered
13 anyone else to go somewhere and keep a lookout. There were no such
14 orders. Everything was being done on a voluntary basis. Every man who
15 felt that his family was in danger felt the need to go there to watch the
16 area in order to keep his family safe and to keep his family from being
17 killed and massacred, because I am no longer sure myself which expression
18 I should be using.
19 Q. All right. That's fine. We can stick with "killed." Did some
20 people not go on guard?
21 A. Yes, there were those, too, who went elsewhere, to other villages.
22 They were those who didn't have the courage to go out and observe.
23 Q. So it was possible to refuse to go on guard or to decline to go on
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, was there another attack by Serbs in our village after this
2 one you've just described?
3 A. Yes. Yes. There was an attack on Jagodnja itself. That was in
4 early June, 1992. From the attack against Joseva, there was daily
5 shelling, shells were falling on us, and then the attack ensued. In the
6 early days of June, we were being shelled from the same directions but
7 more from the Fakovici direction. There was chaos among the refugees;
8 they started running into the woods. And there was an infantry attack
9 from the direction of Fakovici, from Zlijebac, and from the direction of
10 Mlecva, meaning now there was more of it coming from the direction of
11 Mlecva and the result was we were surrounded on all sides.
12 Q. Was there -- I'm not sure if you've told us precisely that there
13 was -- I have to be very careful now to avoid objections. What sort of --
14 you've mentioned an infantry attack. So were these Serb soldiers who were
15 attacking the village?
16 A. Yes. Yes, Serb soldiers.
17 Q. Did they actually enter Jagodnja on that day?
18 A. Yes. On that day Serb soldiers came from the direction of
19 Fakovici and from the direction of Zlijebac and Godzevici, from those
20 general areas and from those villages. They entered one particular part
21 of the village of Bosnjaci, they set fire to it, to the school building,
22 to the mosque, and they came to the hamlet of Tokici, which is part of the
23 village, and started torching it.
24 Q. Thank you. I just want to take it in parts. You said that the
25 mosque was set fire to. Was that the only damage that was done to --
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what? Because I very much suspect that he
3 answered "yes" to your remark that he had mentioned the burning down of
4 the mosque, but I don't think he had heard the rest of the question as
6 MR. JONES: Yes.
7 Q. Aside from the burning, was any other danger done to the mosque?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What?
10 A. The mosque couldn't just burn down in its entirety. There were
11 just parts of the carpet inside the mosque, so it couldn't all just burn
12 down, the entire mosque. So they used hand-held rocket launchers to
13 target the minaret and the roof itself of the old mosque.
14 Q. And did they succeed in damaging the minaret and the roof?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did that mosque pose any danger to the Serbs?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You've also mentioned that the school building was set fire to.
19 Is that the one which you mentioned was being used to house refugees?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were those refugees posing any danger to the Serbs and the
22 surrounding villages, as far as you could tell?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And before this action, had you been attacking, you in Joseva and
25 Jagodnja, had you been attacking the surrounding Serb villages?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, you told us on the first attack when these people were
3 killed, you told us how you didn't resist. On this attack, on this day,
4 did you actually shoot back at the Serbs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you personally or was it other people?
7 A. I had no rifle, but I was there. There were other people who had
8 their hunting rifles and makeshift rifles, too, that we'd made by using
9 water pipes. We had a blacksmith in the village who made those rifles for
10 us. We had three or four such makeshift rifles.
11 Q. Were those makeshift rifles safe to use?
12 A. No. Those rifles could have blown up in the face of the shooter
13 as much as those approaching.
14 Q. Okay. Now, did your -- did the Serbs react to being shot at?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did they do?
17 A. There was heavy fighting in that part of Hasanovici where Serbs
18 couldn't get in. When shooting started in that part of the area where the
19 Muslims were, as soon as one of the Serbs was wounded or being resisted or
20 perhaps killed, they would, as if by default, withdraw and run back to
21 where they'd come from.
22 Q. Right. I think you may partly have answered my next question.
23 Can you explain why the Serbs withdrew when you had so little firepower
24 and they had more?
25 A. As I said, at this time the Serbs were surprised by all the
1 resistance being encountered. When we started firing, I'm referring to
2 those people who had some rifles that they could use, small rifles, the
3 Serbs set fright -- and started to run. They were frightened. What do I
4 know? They had no courage to pursue the path that they had taken.
5 Q. So in other words, they took flight because they were cowards?
6 A. Yes, precisely.
7 Q. They didn't like it if civilians shot back at them.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me. I certainly see that
11 Mr. Jones has been able to elicit from the witness possibly the reason
12 that the Serbs withdrew or retreated, but I have not heard the witness say
13 that if civilians shot back ... If he wants to clarify that part of his
14 testimony, fine, but it doesn't seem at this point to be what Mr. Alic has
15 said before.
16 MR. JONES: I can clarify.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I think it's the case, Mr. Jones.
18 Go ahead.
19 MR. JONES:
20 Q. How would you characterise the people who shot at the Serbs? Were
21 they civilians? Were they soldiers? Were they fighters? What word would
22 you use to describe them?
23 A. The people firing at those soldiers were civilians. They had no
24 automatic weapons that would have suggested an army. They had no uniform.
25 They had nothing to define them as members of an army. We wore very
1 simple footwear or plastic boots. We had nothing that -- on us that would
2 define us as an army or as soldiers. We didn't look like soldiers. All
3 of the rifles were hunting rifles and makeshift rifles. There was some
4 people who were carrying axes or pitchforks, standing guard, as it were,
5 at their own threshold, prepared to be killed there, but not give away
6 anything that rightfully belonged to them.
7 Q. Were these people shooting at the Serbs because they had been
8 ordered to shoot at them or were they doing it on a voluntary basis?
9 A. I'm saying this again: No one ordered anyone else to shoot. It
10 wasn't possible for anyone to stop someone right there in the middle of
11 the village and tell them to shoot at someone unless they wanted to. I
12 mean shooting at the Serb soldiers who came in to burn our village down,
13 or what remained of it, what little remained of it. No one was in a
14 position to order anyone else to shoot at someone.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, just one matter which I think you mentioned in
16 relation to the first attack on Joseva. You mentioned cattle, that you
17 had cattle. What happened to the cattle on the first attack and what, if
18 anything, happened to the cattle on this attack?
19 A. During this attack, Serbs, as they were retreating from the area,
20 came across cattle in sheds. They would burn down the sheds, and then the
21 cattle would die, too. This was a very serious thing, and it was a
22 disaster. They found some cattle outside around the meadows, too, and
23 they would kill them. And there was almost an epidemic, so the cattle had
24 to be buried as well as the people.
25 Q. And do you know why they were shooting your cattle?
1 A. I can tell you what my conclusion was. They were shooting cattle
2 so that we could no longer survive in the area, so that we would have to
3 go elsewhere for our livelihood. Cattle is a fundamental necessity in the
4 area that I come from. You have to milk cows in order to have milk. You
5 need milk in order to feed your children. You need it for sustenance
6 [Realtime transcript read in error "substance"], and that's why the Serb
7 soldiers destroyed everything.
8 Q. Thank you. Yes. And it was "sustenance," I think we'll all
9 agree, in the last sentence.
10 Did any vehicles come to Jagodnja that day, and I'm talking about
11 the later attack in June?
12 A. Yes. Yes. Following the withdrawal of the Serb units and army,
13 they went back to where they'd come from. Shortly after, there was a
14 vehicle coming from Joseva, and this was the only road that was still fit
15 for travel. The vehicle could only have come from Joseva, not from
16 Fakovici. This was a Niva vehicle with a red cross on its doors. This
17 vehicle reached the centre of the village of Trkici that had been torched.
18 We happened to be there. We were trying to salvage whatever we could from
19 the houses in terms of clothes, food, blankets, to keep the whole lot from
20 burning down, because we needed these things. The vehicle arrived and a
21 single shot was fired at this vehicle. The vehicle, as if by default,
22 crashed into a fence --
23 Q. I'll just stop you there just to break the answer up. We'll have
24 the break, so just one question: Who, if anyone, eventually came out of
25 the vehicle?
1 A. There were two soldiers in the vehicle, two soldiers wearing
2 uniform. Out of experience, we knew we shouldn't come too close to that
3 vehicle, so we took cover behind the houses and then the soldiers escaped
4 from the vehicle. We came closer, perhaps 10 or 15 minutes later, to the
5 vehicle and found in it a considerable quantity of ammunition, a whole
6 crate of automatic weapon ammunition; two automatic rifles; two shells,
7 two mortar shells; one Zolja; a whole crate full of bombs or grenades.
8 The best thing that we found was medicines.
9 MR. JONES: That's an appropriate moment to pause.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones. We'll have a 25-minute
11 break, that's -- we'll start again at quarter past 6.00. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
15 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, before the break you had been describing this
17 vehicle, this Niva, and you said: "Out of experience we knew we shouldn't
18 come too close to that vehicle."
19 Can you explain what you meant by that,
20 A. What I meant was in order to avoid shooting from the vehicle and
21 the people to be injured or wounded or, God forbid, even killed.
22 Q. And you've mentioned that this car, that it had a Red Cross
23 symbol. You also described how Serb soldiers came out of it and it had
24 weapons and ammunition which you found in it. Did you personally find
25 those items? Were you there?
1 A. I was there. I was there myself.
2 Q. Right.
3 A. Next to the vehicle.
4 Q. I'm going to come back to the items you found in the car in a
5 moment. Did you find anything else in the area from where Serbs had been
6 shooting that day in Jagodnja?
7 A. Apart from the things I've already mentioned, medicines and
8 sanitary equipment, we saw a place slightly away from that vehicle from
9 where the Serb soldiers were shooting.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
11 A. In the backpack that we found there, there was food and a first
12 aid kit. And there was a document there which said "Bajida" [phoen] and a
13 number of names of Serb soldiers, in my view, because it was mostly names
14 of the soldiers from that area, the surrounding villages of Jagodnja and
16 Q. Any village which you have in mind specifically or which was
17 referred to in the document?
18 A. This Bajida person was from Zlijebac and there was a list of
19 people from Zlijebac, and I myself knew Bajida personally because he was a
20 bus driver employed by the company called Vihor in Bratunac.
21 Q. And do you know what happened to these documents which were found?
22 A. As far as I know, they were thrown into the rubbish because it
23 didn't mean anything to us. There was nobody that we could have given
24 them to or submitted them to or anything of the sort. It meant nothing to
25 us at the time.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's get this clear because it's a little bit
2 confused in my mind. Bajida is the name of a person?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a nickname of a person from
4 Zlijebac. That was what he was called, and I don't know his actual real
5 name and surname. But on the basis of this nickname, I recognise that
6 this is a person from Zlijebac.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I ask Defence counsel -- the
9 witness's testimony again is slightly unclear. Mr. Alic referred to a
10 document with Bajida, the name, and then later on I see that the question
11 pertains to documents. Are we talking about a document --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Document, I think it may be a problem of
13 interpretation. I take it that we're talking of this just one document.
14 MR. JONES: Yes, I can clarify with the witness.
15 Q. Was it a single document or more than one document, if you recall?
16 A. Your Honour, it was a single document.
17 Q. Right.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What does "Bajida" mean in your language?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Bajida" is some kind of nickname.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But what does it stand for?
21 MR. JONES:
22 Q. Does it mean anything?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it -- yeah, what does it mean, first of all?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person nicknamed Bajida was
25 called by that name before the war; that's how I knew him, by that name.
1 MR. JONES: I don't think it means anything in Bosnian.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: If it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't mean
3 anything. I was just trying to see whether it had any connotation at
4 all --
5 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's -- it is definitely an Arabic word. So
7 I just wanted to see what it is.
8 MR. JONES: Perhaps it means something in Maltese.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not a Maltese, it is an Arabic word.
10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. You mentioned how in this car, the Niva, documentation was found,
12 but you also said how important medicines were found.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one clarification.
15 You're quite right. This word "Bajida" would appear to be Arabic, and the
16 witness has said it in another way, "Baida" [phoen], which is a Serb word.
17 The interpreters, unfortunately, can't hear the difference.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. One is "Baida" and the other one is
20 MR. JONES: Thank you. Yes.
21 Q. So going back to these medicines. As a result of finding the
22 medicines in that car, did that -- did that make any -- as a result of
23 that, did you in fact take on a new career, if I may put it that way?
24 A. Yes. Since the medicines and bandages were found, and a bag which
25 was full of those medicines, my neighbours told me that we should appoint
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 somebody who should take care of these things. Since we had no doctors or
2 nurses in our midst or anyone else who might have been an expert on those
3 matters, I myself decided and I was told by my elders that I could be the
4 appointed person. And so it was decided that I would be the person in
5 charge of these matters in future in case there was any need for that.
6 Q. And how would you describe that role which you took on?
7 A. I can describe the role quite simply. I mean, whenever I saw
8 something -- and I mean, I never knew anything much about medicines or
9 anything like that, but I had a cousin who was a nurse and she was from
10 Osmace. And so I had to go see her at Osmace. I had to seek her out.
11 And it was by pure chance that I actually managed to find her, and she
12 explained to me --
13 Q. Yes, thank you --
14 A. -- everything.
15 Q. I want to break this down, and if you can give shorter answers so
16 we can make progress.
17 MR. JONES: And I'm also trusting that, this not being a very
18 contentious issue, that I can lead to a certain extent.
19 Q. Basically, did you become a nurse? Would that be fair to say?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in order to know what to do, you told us that you had a cousin
22 who was a nurse and she was from Osmace and you went to seek her out. Was
23 he actually in Osmace itself or in the hamlet of Osmace?
24 A. Yes. She was in a hamlet of Osmace.
25 Q. What's the name of that hamlet?
1 A. The hamlet is called Murselovici.
2 Q. To cut a long story short, did you go there, find her, and as you
3 said, by chance, receive some sort of instruction and then return to your
5 A. I went there and I found her and she gave me all the instructions.
6 Yes, I went there by chance, but I had to go there. I had to find
7 somebody who could give me some indication of what I was supposed to do,
8 to instruct me in some way so I could do it in the future.
9 Q. Was that an easy trip to make to Murselovici?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. Because above the village of Jagodnja where we tried to pass,
13 there could have been killings and all sorts of things there because it's
14 a forest. And Osmace is 25 kilometres away, approximately, so we went
15 through the creeks. We made our way through the forests and creeks all
16 the way to Osmace.
17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the hamlet does appear on the map --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes --
19 MR. JONES: -- but to save time, I wouldn't propose --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I have marked it already on my map.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. When you say "we" --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's mountainous terrain and forest.
24 MR. JONES: Thank you.
25 Q. And when you say "we," who went with you?
1 A. Yes. There were two other lads who helped me carry all the stuff.
2 And for security reasons as well, because we were travelling through the
3 woods, as I said. We were deep in the forest and we were afraid. We
4 feared for our lives, and there could have an ambush at any moment, all
5 sorts of things.
6 Q. Right. I'm going to move forward to once you returned to your
7 village. And just so you can give us a sense of life over the summer of
8 1992, firstly, did you continue to receive refugees, Muslim refugees, who
9 had been expelled by Serbs from their villages?
10 A. Up until the first attack from Joseva, or rather in Joseva, which
11 happened in mid-May, all the surrounding Muslim villages around Jagodnja,
12 the ones that I've marked, that is to say Skelani, Tihici, Daljegosta,
13 Abdulici, all those people had already arrived into our villages, so there
14 were no Muslims that could have arrived from that area. Not a single
15 Muslim was left in that area.
16 Q. Thank you -- sorry, in what area?
17 A. Could you clarify your question, please?
18 Q. When you say Skelani, Tihici, Daljegosta, what area is that that
19 you're referring to?
20 A. That's the area of the municipality of Skelani. So from that part
21 of the area, Muslims had all been chased out of there until mid-May 1992.
22 From there and from Abdulici and thereabouts.
23 Q. And did you ever receive refugees in your village from further
24 afield, from different municipalities altogether; not from Bratunac,
25 Srebrenica, Skelani, but even other municipalities?
1 A. Afterwards in June, July, refugees started arriving, looking for
2 food. People from Visegrad, from Zepa, from Rogatica, from Han Pijesak,
3 refugees driven out of that area were crossing the woods. It was, so to
4 say, a no-man's land. Nobody on the Muslim side was in control and Serbs
5 or Serb patrols might have been there near Jagodnja and Joseva. And they
6 were making their way through the woods, looking for food, coming to us
7 for food, in June and July. People from Joseva -- I mean, the village had
8 been torched and there was just a part of the village called Hasanici
9 which was left standing. And all those people went back to where they had
10 come from in order to gather some food for sheer survival, in order to get
11 to their crops or see if there was anything left over in terms of cattle.
12 Q. And when you say these people went back to where they'd come from
13 in order to gather some food, is there anywhere specific you have in mind,
14 any villages?
15 A. People who were from the village of Abdulici or Zanjevo, rather,
16 were trying to go down there in order to get some food. They would step
17 on mines, they would end up in minefields or be ambushed or whatever.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. JONES: I'd ask if the witness could be shown D42, please.
20 Q. Now, you'll see that this is a document dated 10th, September,
21 1996, of the 314th Infantry Brigade command. And it's recommendation
22 concerning Radivoje Jakovljevic. And I'll just read the explanation
23 because it's quite short. "Radivoje Jakovljevic has been -- or was been a
24 member of the VRS, Republika Srpska army, since military operations began.
25 He participated in fighting in the Fakovici neighbourhood sector. He
1 displayed steadiness and bravery in all situations and enjoyed the respect
2 of the soldiers and the people for that reason. When reconnoitring the
3 terrain on 15th August, 1992, he was seriously wounded (by stepping on a
4 mine) in Radijevici village, and died in hospital the same day from
5 injuries received."
6 Now, I want to ask you first to look at the map. I believe you've
7 marked Radijevici already. Yes, you have.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you've also marked Boljevici, which is where this Radivoje
10 Jakovljevic was apparently born in 1933. So according to this document he
11 would have been 59 years old when he died. Now, is Boljevici, is that
12 part of Fakovici local commune?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And according to this document, this gentleman was a member of the
15 Republika Srpska army since military operations began and before his death
16 on 15 August 1992, according to this, he "participated in fighting in the
17 Fakovici neighbourhood sector."
18 Now, can you confirm that there was indeed fighting in the
19 Fakovici neighbourhood sector before 15th August, 1992?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Perhaps I put it badly. Let me put it this way: Your village is
22 in the neighbourhood of Fakovici, is it not?
23 A. Yes, our village is in the vicinity of Fakovici, yes.
24 Q. Right. And you've told us about the units coming from the
25 direction of Fakovici into your village in June 1992. Now, if someone
1 living in Fakovici, a Serb, would say that all was peaceful in that area
2 until October of 1992, would that be true?
3 A. Could you clarify that, please. What part do you mean? Where was
4 it peaceful?
5 Q. I'm sorry, let me approach it a different way. This refers to a
6 person being killed stepping on a mine in Radijevici. Were you aware that
7 Serbs had laid mines in Radijevici?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When did you first become aware that Serbs had laid minefields in
10 this area?
11 A. Yes. When the people from Zanjevo who were looking for food had
12 left and that after the attack at Jagodnja in the beginning of July, they
13 used to go down there and they would come across minefields. And they
14 tried to go around them, and some people were killed. And on the basis of
15 their experiences, we did know that they -- there were land-mines in the
17 Q. Now, that's land-mines in or around Zanjevo. Were there other --
18 were there ever minefields closer to your village, to Jagodnja and Joseva?
19 A. Yes. On the basis of the geographical position itself, the way
20 the village is organised and the fact that it is surrounded by forests and
21 the way the Serb soldiers approached the village, they were known to lay
22 land-mines next to our fields. They would come through the woods at
23 night, and when they were on patrol, they would leave land-mines. And so
24 if Muslims did any reconnaissance or try to go to the forests for any
25 other purpose, they would be likely to step on mines. And this was at the
1 end of June, the beginning of July; those things happened at that time.
2 Q. Right. Now, you've mentioned how the Serbs laid land-mines next
3 to your fields. The Prosecution may suggest to you that the laying of
4 land-mines is a defensive use of those weapons. Do you agree with that?
5 A. Will you please clarify that.
6 Q. Let me put it this way: Did those minefields in fact make it
7 difficult for you to move around your area, you Muslims?
8 A. Of course. Of course. People would go to Zanjevo on a daily
9 basis to forage for food. They had no food. We didn't have food
10 ourselves at Jagodnja and Joseva, those of us who survived in the area,
11 let alone those who had been expelled from the area. They had already
12 eaten up all the food that we had.
13 Q. Thank you. I think that's clear. Now, did you at any stage see
14 any indications or markings or signposts indicating where mines had been
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where did you see those signposts or markings or indications?
18 A. As for the markings, some of the mines were laid near Joseva from
19 the direction of Fakovici and Radijevici. On your way there you would
20 find signposts reading "Watch out, mines." But they were placed in the
21 direction that the Serb soldiers were coming from, not in our direction.
22 But the road that the Serb soldiers were taking, those were wooden
23 signposts driven into the ground, and this is what they said in order to
24 keep the Serb soldiers from stepping on any of those mines that they were
25 unaware of.
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned Osmace earlier in
2 your testimony. During the summer of 1992, did you in Jagodnja and Joseva
3 have any sort of regular contact with Osmace?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know a place called Kragljivoda?
6 A. Yes. I know the place.
7 Q. And in the summer of 1992, did you in Jagodnja and Joseva have
8 regular contact with Kragljivoda?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did some people nonetheless manage to occasionally go back and
11 forth between these places?
12 A. Those people who were moving about, for the most part people who
13 had families in that area, they would go see their families and then go
14 back. People went to look for food and then would bring it back. They
15 would stay several days in Jagodnja until they were given some food or in
16 order to use an opportunity to join someone on their way to Zanjevo to get
17 food, if the people from Zanjevo happened to be moving in that direction,
18 because they were familiar with the road or the path leading there. So
19 those were the lines of communication that people were using, those people
20 who were in fact moving about the area. But the fear was great and they
21 regularly took round-about routes because it wasn't possible to just cross
22 the elevation in order to reach those areas directly.
23 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, moving to a slightly different topic.
24 You've described how Joseva was burnt in May 1992. During the summer of
25 1992, did those houses which had been burned remain empty or did people
1 try to rebuild them?
2 A. Most of the people whose houses had been burned tried to go back
3 and did in fact go back to the village -- to the village of Joseva. They
4 would use the two walls where there was no roof in order to make shelters
5 that they could live in and in order to get there in time for the crop
6 that they had sown the previous spring, corn and that sort of thing.
7 Q. And to your knowledge did the Serbs in your area notice that
8 people were moving back into Joseva?
9 A. Yes, they did. You could see that with the naked eye. From
10 Bijeli Kamen you could see all of it happening. They were active on a
11 daily basis, firing on both Joseva and Jagodnja. People who were working
12 the fields, the wheat had been planted in autumn 1999 [as interpreted],
13 and in August it was already ripe for picking, for harvesting. And there
14 was a lot to be done on the fields.
15 Q. I think there might be an error with the date. Did you say autumn
16 1999 or some other year?
17 A. In autumn, that's when wheat is planted. That was in 1991. I may
18 have made a mistake myself, which I apologise for, Your Honour.
19 Q. Yes. And then you mentioned that because of -- there was harvest
20 and a lot of work to be done, you've linked that to the fact that there
21 was -- let me just get this right. To the fact that they were active on a
22 daily basis, firing on both Joseva and Jagodnja. So who are you referring
23 to there as being active on a daily basis, firing on both Joseva and
25 A. Yes. I'm referring to the Serb soldiers.
1 Q. And did they do anything with regard to any wheat which was
2 harvested, the Serbs?
3 A. In late August they succeeded in harvesting some of the wheat at
4 night in order to tie the wheat up into bales, as we used to call them.
5 We couldn't work the fields by using our machinery because there was no
6 fuel, and the women tried to harvest as much as they could, pick up as
7 much as they could, to make bread. We were waiting for another window of
8 opportunity to go there and harvest the wheat. We threshed the wheat with
9 our spades in order to be able to harvest some of it to make bread.
10 Q. But my question is with regard to the Serbs. Did the Serbs do
11 anything with regard to the wheat that was harvested?
12 A. They were shelling us daily. We couldn't get to the fields to
13 work the fields by day or by night. In late September, possibly early
14 October, the Serbs used incendiary ammunition to set fire to the stacks of
15 hay that were on the fields, wounding civilians as a result and killing
16 cattle, whatever cattle was still moving. They used every opportunity to
17 strike fear into us, to try to drive us away or to kill us and so on and
18 so forth.
19 Q. Right. You've taken us up to late September, possibly early
20 October now. Do you recall any other events in early October 1992?
21 A. In early October 1992, there were fierce attacks, heavy shelling,
22 incursions by Serb soldiers, a group of Serb soldiers -- groups of Serb
23 soldiers into both Jagodnja and Joseva. They intimidated the civilians
24 there. They were shooting. They were trying to kill someone or take
25 people away. This became our daily tragedy. There wasn't a single moment
1 of time for us to perform any of our daily tasks. As a nurse, I was in
2 Jagodnja at the house in Hasanovici. Every day there was somebody who was
3 wounded who needed seeing to. I was so busy that I was no longer able to
4 keep an eye on what was going on in the fields nearby. I dressed their
5 wounds, I suffered together with these wounded people. It was dreadful
6 and I would probably need a lot of time to explain everything that was
7 going on in detail.
8 Q. Thank you. Well, that's sufficient for our purposes for the time
9 being. Did you always remain in Jagodnja or did you ever go outside your
10 village in the course of these attacks? And I'm referring to early
11 October 1992.
12 A. Personally I was at Jagodnja throughout. I never left the
14 MR. JONES: That's fine. I'm trying to recall, Your Honour, are
15 we going until 7.00 or 6.45?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever is -- the time when we are supposed to stop
17 is 7.00, but I am noticing some tiredness on the part of the witness in
19 MR. JONES: Yes. I might just ask a couple more questions.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, go ahead. Provided you don't exceed 7.00.
21 And I don't know what Ms. Sellers --
22 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I just wanted to inform the Trial
23 Chamber and the Defence also that we would like to make a very short
24 submission prior to the close of today, possibly after the witness has
25 already withdrawn from the room.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So I suppose, what I suggest, Mr. Jones, is --
2 MR. JONES: Right now.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can dispose of the witness. He can be
4 escorted out of the courtroom.
5 Mr. Alic, we are going to stop here because we've got some other
6 business to transact today before we go home. You will return again
7 tomorrow in the afternoon, like today. We start at quarter past 2.00. In
8 the meantime, between today and tomorrow and in the days to come, between
9 sittings you are not to contact anyone or allow anyone to contact you to
10 discuss or mention matters related to your testimony or to the events that
11 you are giving testimony about. Did I make myself clear?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't mean to say that you cannot ring up your
14 family, for example, to put their mind at rest that you are okay, but you
15 are not to discuss matters related to the events that we are dealing with.
16 All right?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll see you again tomorrow afternoon
20 Usher, you can escort.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers.
23 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.
24 Your Honour, earlier today, prior to Mr. Alic commencing his
25 testimony, the Defence informed the Trial Chamber and also the Prosecution
1 at the same time that Dr. Ilijaz Pilav would not be coming to testify, and
2 the Defence stated that it was in the interest of not having redundancy of
3 the testimony offered before the Trial Chamber. The Prosecution would
4 like to put on the record that we prepared quite a bit for Mr. -- Dr.
5 Pilav. We thought he was an important witness, and we thought that he was
6 going to go into many others that we weren't redundant, and we just would
7 like to state that any type of prior notification, particularly with a
8 doctor whose schedule is probably known more than two or three days in
9 advance, would have been appreciated by the Prosecution. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Yes. So we can adjourn -- yes, Madam Vidovic. Can't you leave it
12 at that?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, at any rate we
14 ourselves were notified quite late in the day. I do have to say I'm glad
15 that Ms. Sellers said this. We also some time ago were preparing for
16 Dr. Pilav who was on the Prosecution list. We had put together our own
17 questions for him and they struck the witness from the list. At any rate,
18 had we known earlier, we would have duly notified the OTP. We were trying
19 to make our call until very late in the day, whether we would be calling
20 this witness at a later stage or not. But it was after the testimony of
21 Dr. Mardel that we surveyed some other circumstances and decided that his
22 testimony would likely be redundant. I don't think, therefore, that there
23 is any particular sense in making an objection like this, since the
24 witness was originally on their own list and they were the ones who gave
25 up on calling that particular witness.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You definitely, Ms. Vidovic, have the right to
2 withdraw a witness if you want to, just as the Prosecution has a right to
3 do that. And there is nothing either side can do; it's a prerogative that
4 you have. The only thing is that -- anyway, let me say the least possible
5 because in this case it seems that this was a witness that both of you
6 wanted to bring forward.
7 We can adjourn now. I thank you all, and we'll meet again
8 tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of
11 October, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.