1 Wednesday, 19 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.38 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning.
6 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before I ask Mr. Oric whether he is following,
10 I mean see on my monitor here "Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m."
11 I mean, for the record purposes, it goes to our advantage, but it
12 doesn't reflect the truth.
13 So, yes, Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, ladies
16 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down, and good morning to
19 Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to
21 the Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the
22 Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers,
23 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
24 And later on this session, also Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio will join the team.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones is glad to hear that. Thank you,
1 and good morning to you and your team.
2 Appearances for Naser Oric.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
4 morning to the colleagues from the Prosecution. I'm Vasvija Vidovic and
5 together with Mr. John Jones, I represent the defence of Mr. Naser Oric.
6 We are joined by our legal assistant Ms. Cosic and our case manager,
7 Mr. Geoff Roberts.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, madam, and good morning to you and your
9 team. Any preliminaries?
10 Yes, Mr. Wubben.
11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. With a view to the submissions to
12 put to this Trial Chamber later on this session, I would like to inform
13 you that we will not make use of jurisprudence and the issue, related
14 issue, of the public domain, and I already updated Defence in that
15 respect. And also I -- the second is that I have a request not to close
16 the direct examination of this witness today until we are able to update
17 you of the outcome of the search of the background of this person Slobodan
18 Misic, as we are ongoing that from yesterday afternoon. So that can be
19 still included in the direct examination.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. I appreciate your intervention, Mr. Wubben.
21 And I don't think it calls for any remarks from the Defence.
22 MR. JONES: Well, just so I understand, I take it that means I'll
23 conclude my examination-in-chief, the Prosecution will start their
24 cross-examination, but I'll have leave to reopen on that matter.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's how I understand it.
1 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour. If I may. My suggestion was not to
2 close, not to close the examination-in-chief, but wait for this final
3 outcome of the search.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Okay. So let's -- let me say whether I have
5 understood you well. It means basically that when, after, say, an hour
6 from now, Mr. Jones finishes with his examination-in-chief, you will not
7 start the cross-examination immediately, but you will -- you are asking
8 for us to wait until we get a feedback from you on your findings relating
9 to Slobodan Misic?
10 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And then it seems that you would require us to turn
12 again towards your direction to see whether you have any further questions
13 to put to the witness, following which, if there are, then we will start
14 with the cross-examination. Of course, it also means that you will have a
15 right to re-examine the witness in any case.
16 MR. WUBBEN: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 MR. JONES: I understand that, Your Honour. My concern is then
18 naturally for this witness and for how long he's going to be in The Hague,
19 because at this stage obviously -- well, I appreciate obviously there was
20 urgent business this morning of Your Honour Judge Eser which obviously
21 couldn't wait and so we've started a bit late already. But as it is, if
22 then after my examination-in-chief there's even further delay, I fear this
23 witness may not be finished by this week and he'll have to stay --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but we will -- if necessary, you know, we have
25 a very long weekend, actually, Mr. Jones. And basically, at that point in
1 time, I would rather you finish your in chief, we send him home, make sure
2 that he is left incommunicado in some way or another, have some kind of
3 control over him, and then we bring him back, if necessary, when we need
4 to start with the cross-examination.
5 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
6 Otherwise he will have to stay over the long weekend.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to appeal
8 to you to keep in mind the fact that both of this witness's parents are
9 disabled and he had huge difficulties in getting here. I really don't
10 know how we can swing it again, because it's a huge problem for him. I
11 really don't see why the Prosecutor can't start the cross-examination, and
12 then in case any further evidence crops up, we can reopen the
13 examination-in-chief. I don't see any legal obstacles to that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's -- yes, Mr. Wubben.
15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, we are confident that the
16 cross-examination will be finalised by --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: On Friday.
18 MR. WUBBEN: By Thursday.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: By Thursday.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Well, we will try to aim for Thursday, but it
21 might -- should at least be on Friday.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I have full confidence in your cooperation,
23 both of you. I mean -- so I look at this optimistically, let's put it
24 like that, at least from what I have just heard. So let's not lose more
25 time, unless there are any further issues that you would like to raise --
1 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I see none. So let's start with the witness.
3 If it seems that what I'm going to announce enjoys the consensus
4 of everyone -- so if it does not, if anyone does not agree with it, please
5 let me know now. The idea is that we will now -- that we have started,
6 will go until 12.20, 12.20; then we will have one break of 30 minutes,
7 from 12.20 to 12.50; then we'll start, it means, at 12.50 and we'll finish
8 at 14.35, if that is agreeable to everyone.
9 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think the parties would agree to that,
11 my staff and the rest, I know that they agree. What I want is thumbs up
12 from the interpreters' booths. Yeah.
13 THE INTERPRETER: It is all right with the interpreters.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: The recorder, is it all right with you? Okay.
15 Thank you.
16 The technicians -- it's very hard to -- okay. It seems to be --
17 yeah, they are waving, too. It seems to be all right. So that's -- will
18 be our schedule, and I thank the cooperation of everyone. I thank
19 everyone for your cooperation.
20 Yes, you can bring the witness in, please.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Alic, good morning to you. Good morning,
23 Mr. Alic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you've had enough time to rest. We are going
1 to continue. We started a little bit later because one of us had a prior
2 important engagement that he had to attend to, but now we can start and we
3 can continue. And we hope to be able to finish with you tomorrow or, if
4 things go wrong, at the latest, on Friday.
5 So, Mr. Jones.
6 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 WITNESS: IBRO ALIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]
10 MR. JONES:
11 Q. And apologies from me to Mr. Alic that you had to wait 45 minutes
12 this morning. I didn't hear a response, but I trust the equipment will be
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you receiving interpretation?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. JONES: Thank you.
17 Q. Now, you recall, Mr. Alic, that yesterday when we left of we were
18 looking at an article referring to a volunteer called Slobodan Misic and
19 his activities in the Drina area. Do you recall that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. JONES: We have a new exhibit in that regard, which has
23 already been distributed. For the record, it's the article which the
24 headline is "I keep dreaming about snakes drinking blood." And the date
25 is 8 November, 1997, in the publication "Fokus" and the ERN for the record
1 is 00659264 to 00659269.
2 Q. And I'll just read the introduction. You have it in front of
4 "Misic was arrested by the Serbian secret police in the Editorial
5 Office of the Vranjski Novine. The Dnevni Telegraf published his
6 confession, warning its readers about atrocities mentioned in the text."
7 And it says: "From the correspondent of Dnevni Avaz, Podgorica."
8 Firstly, can you tell us where Podgorica is?
9 A. Podgorica is in Montenegro.
10 Q. Thank you. And it says: "Two days ago, members of the Serbian
11 secret police arrested Slobodan Misic, Top, the Serbian volunteer whose
12 confession about the crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina have been published
13 in the Vranjski Novine newspaper. He was arrested in their editorial
14 office. Vukasin Obradovic, editor of the Vranjski Novine, said that Misic
15 was arrested by three members of the Serbian State Security Service.
16 "In addition to this, they seized tapes of the interview and
17 Misic's authorised transcript."
18 And then I move down -- first of all, do you recall Slobodan Misic
19 as being the name of the individual in the article yesterday?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. I'm going to read where in English it's 00659267. One moment,
23 Of course, I'm -- there's only an English version, I appreciate,
24 but it's being interpreted for the witness, which is what counts.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't envisage a problem, Mr. Jones.
1 MR. JONES: Thank you.
2 Q. And so I'll read: "In Bosnia, I was on the bank of the Drina. We
3 held the corridor from Skelani to Bratunac."
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that he has found the -- that he
5 is receiving, in other words, interpretation, since he hasn't got the text
6 of this.
7 MR. JONES: Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you receiving interpretation?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones is reading from this document now, so it's
11 important that you follow precisely what is being translated to you.
12 Yes, Mr. Jones.
13 MR. JONES: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you please --
15 MR JONES: And I'll read slowly --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- read slowly --
17 MR. JONES: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- so that the interpreters can catch up completely.
19 MR. JONES: Yes
20 Q. "In Bosnia, I was on the bank of the Drina. We held the corridor
21 from Skelani to Bratunac. Frankly speaking, we had everything: Food,
22 weaponry, and ammunition. We fought against Muslims, poor and hungry
23 lot. We guarded Serbian villages from their intrusion. They came to
24 steal food to be able to survive. I watched one of them voraciously
25 eating a corn-cob. I let him finish and then I cut his throat and into
1 the Drina he goes. We would round them up from ambush from time to time;
2 we would go to cleanse Muslim villages in the hills."
3 And first of all, pausing there, what I've just read to you, does
4 that correspond with your experiences in the area, namely, that the Serbs
5 had everything, that the Muslims were poor and hungry, and that they were
6 killed by Serbs in ambushes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that Muslim villages in the hills were cleansed by the Serbs?
9 A. Yes, except for the villages of Jagodnja and Joseva, that is to
10 say, the part of Jagodnja which had not been set on fire, it was in 1992.
11 And all the other villages in the hills had been cleansed on the part of
12 the Serb forces.
13 Q. Thank you. Then moving on: "Decapitated bodies. We were the
14 Territorial Defence but special units used to come too. The Red Berets in
15 camouflage uniforms, a company of some 30 people, to lead us volunteers.
16 I don't know who they were. They were not Arkan's men. They were not
17 Seselj's men. I didn't even dare ask. We attack, burn, kill, capture a
18 few people, and we get back. We would capture women and children. We did
19 not rape women, but they were killed too."
20 I'll stop there. Now, I asked you already about the Territorial
21 Defence in Fakovici. You recall your testimony as far as that was
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you aware, too, in 1992 in this area of other units,
25 special units in the area, in addition to the Territorial Defence?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you've told us how Muslim women were killed in Jagodnja and
3 Joseva in May 1992.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. One final thing on this article. At the bottom it says: "I
6 remember when I cut that Muslim's head off and threw it into the Drina.
7 Although it was cold, dozens of snakes suddenly gathered around him to
8 drink blood."
9 My question about this is simply: That detail is not something,
10 is it, that we saw in the article yesterday, this detail about the snakes?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So this is additional information in this document that we didn't
13 see yesterday?
14 A. No, I didn't see that yesterday.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number for this document,
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Jones. This document which, which is
19 entirely in English, consists of six pages, with ERN 00659264 right
20 through and inclusive of 00659269, is being tendered, received, marked, as
21 Defence Exhibit D833.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
23 Now, with the usher's assistance, we have some further documents,
24 starting with one with the ERN 04359976, slightly out of the sequence I
25 planned before. We should be able to follow. And for the record, I'll
1 just read the document. The date is 29 October 1992, request for finance
2 to be paid to the account Skelani TO, Territorial Defence, payment of
3 salary to fighters from Fakovici, Radijevici, paid on 29 October 1992,
4 Radijevici Platoon Commander Miki.
5 Q. Now, this refers to fighters from Fakovici and Radijevici, but you
6 agree, do you not, that it's signed by a platoon commander?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you told us yesterday how, on the 5th of October, 1992, Serb
9 soldiers were shooting from houses in Radijevici. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You've told us how Fakovici was linked to Skelani. Does that also
12 apply to Radijevici? Was that linked to Skelani?
13 A. Yes. As I said, from Bjelovac to Skelani and further down, it was
14 the municipality of Skelani which had been set up, including Jagodnja and
15 Joseva. So Ognjen Markovic said that in the beginning of the war.
16 MR. JONES: Could I have an exhibit number for this document,
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. This document which consists of two
19 pages, one -- the original being in B/C/S, with ERN number 04359976 and
20 the other is a corresponding translation thereof into English is being
21 tendered, marked, and received as Defence Exhibit D834.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you.
23 Q. And now the next document is ERN 04359975. And again, for the
24 record, it says: "Republika Srpska, Skelani municipality, municipal
25 department of the Ministry of Defence." And the date is 14 November
1 1992. And it says "Payment of LD, personal income, for August." And then
2 it says: "Fakovici, Radijevici."
3 I'll give you a moment to look at that.
4 Now, you'll recall in the last document we saw payment of salary
5 to fighters from Fakovici, Radijevici. This document just
6 says: "Fakovici, Radijevici." Can you explain this personal income, LD?
7 Is that something which is paid to a village or is it paid to individuals?
8 A. I think it was paid to individuals who were members of the armed
9 forces. It was the soldiers' pay, for the soldiers who were in the area.
10 Q. Thank you. And this refers to August. It's a payment, obviously,
11 which is signed November 1992. But that would refer to August 1992, would
12 it not?
13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that Defence counsel has
14 given the answer within the question. This is something that refers to
15 August, so that -- and then he asked the witness, Mr. Alic: Does it refer
16 to August? So I find that there is an answer that's been presumed.
17 Certainly Mr. Alic might answer in the same manner or in a different
18 manner, but so that that's clear.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think partly you are right, Ms. Sellers; but on
20 the other hand, you have a document which is dated the 14th of November,
21 which refers to a payment accountable to August, and basically it consists
22 of an alleged payment. In other words, we have a payment being effected
23 in November. And the witness is being asked to confirm that basically
24 this is a payment which is being effected in November but which refers to
25 the salaries that were due for the month of August. That's how I
1 understand it. And if he doesn't agree with that, he will just say "I
2 don't agree" or "I read it differently." But it's true that the question
3 contains partly --
4 MR. JONES: It's really this, Your Honour. It's so obvious that
5 perhaps I don't need to put the question. It's November 1992, it's for
6 August --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You might as well do without the question. But if
8 the witness wants to answer it, of course he can.
9 MR. JONES: I'll put it this way.
10 Q. What year do you think that refers to, August? August of what
12 A. 1992.
13 Q. Yes. Thank you.
14 MR. JONES: I would ask for an exhibit number.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The last thing I require is to have the --
16 [Technical difficulty]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I love the sound of the Serbo-Croat language,
18 but I prefer to be able to follow in English today. The problem is
19 technical, obviously. I'm receiving translation of what I am saying into
21 So while that is being taken care of, I am going to mark -- enter
22 and mark this document, this document which consists of two pages, one in
23 Serbo-Croat, which bears ERN 04359975, and then the equivalent translation
24 thereof into English being the second page is being tendered, received,
25 and marked as Defence Exhibit D835. Thank you.
1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And the next exhibit just in
2 this sequence we have is 04359974. I'm actually tempted to tender them
3 together. You'll see the similarity. But I'll ask one question and then
4 ask for an exhibit number.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: At this stage, it doesn't really matter if they are
6 tendered together or whether they are tendered differently. Perhaps if
7 they are kept different it's even better.
8 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. So again, Republika Srpska, Skelani municipality, municipal
10 department of the Ministry of Defence, date 14 November 1992, payment of
11 September salaries. And then in the Bosnian, anyway, it's clear,
12 Fakovici, Radijevici. I think there's a typo in English. It says
14 Witness, could you read, please, what villages are mentioned
15 there. Payment of September salaries for which villages?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time on it. It's obvious that it is
17 Radijevici. I don't think that the Prosecution is contesting that. So
18 let's go ahead.
19 MR. JONES: That's fine.
20 Q. So simply this question: September, what year do you think
21 that -- sorry, of what year would that be?
22 A. 1992.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. JONES: An exhibit number, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which also consists of just two
1 pages, one in B/C/S, the other one in English, bearing ERN 04359974, is
2 being tendered and received and marked as Defence Exhibit D836. Thank
4 MR. JONES: Thank you very much, Your Honour. We have another new
5 exhibit. The ERN is 04359970. For the record, in the meantime, I'll
6 read: "14 November 1992, request for finance to be paid to account
7 Skelani SO, Municipal Assembly, payment of salary for August to the
8 Fakovici unit, 546.000 dinars, paid out in cheques."
9 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Alic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, again, this is dated 14 November 1992, referring to payment
12 for August. Now, you told us yesterday how the Serb soldiers who
13 patrolled around Jagodnja and Joseva and who shot into the village were
14 not, in your opinion, village guards, that their weapons were not those of
15 village guards. This document refers, does it not, to a Fakovici unit?
16 Can you confirm that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it's from the account Skelani Municipal Assembly. That's
19 fine. I don't need your confirmation. I'll just put this question: As
20 regards units in Fakovici, or a unit in Fakovici, on the basis of what you
21 and other people in Jagodnja and Joseva saw in the summer of 1992, what's
22 your estimate of the numbers of Serb soldiers who were based in Fakovici
23 in that period?
24 A. As I said yesterday, between 200 and 300 people from the accounts
25 of the people who were observing from certain positions that I pointed out
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 on the map yesterday.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. JONES: And I'll just ask for an exhibit number for this
4 document, please, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, Mr. Jones, which contains --
6 consists of two pages, one in the original B/C/S language and the other
7 one -- and partly handwritten, the other one being the corresponding
8 translation thereof, and which carry ERN 04359970 is being tendered,
9 marked -- and marked as Defence Exhibit D837.
10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I think I just have one more
11 document in this series, which is 04359969, again very similar document to
12 the last one, dated 14 November 1992, request for finance to be paid to
13 account Skelani SO, Municipal Assembly, payment of salary for August to
14 the Fakovici unit, paid out in cash.
15 Q. Does this document confirm, or not, that the Fakovici unit was
16 paid its salary in cash on 14th November 1992?
17 A. As I've already pointed out, the Skelani municipality covered the
18 entire area by paying all these soldiers in Fakovici and Radijevici their
19 salaries. That's as far as Skelani municipality is concerned.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. JONES: I'll just ask for an exhibit number for this document,
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we have a small problem here. It
24 is -- no it's different. This is a different document. This belongs to
25 the previous one.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. JONES: The difference is cheque and cash.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is where it is different.
4 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But it's the same amount paid for the same
6 MR. JONES: The amount is illegible on 9969. Our submission is
7 that it's the same.
8 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: It's exactly the same we are dealing with
10 MR. JONES: Will Your Honour give me a moment?
11 It could -- Your Honour is quite correct. It could well be the
12 same document.
13 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: It's the same.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It is different.
15 MR. JONES: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It is probable or it is indicative that we're
17 talking of the same amount probably and the same date, for sure, but
18 definitely in the third handwritten line, that is, the words in
19 brackets -- to me, at least the first two words are identical, but the
20 last word is different.
21 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, in fact --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the only difference that I see, and of course
23 the amount, both in figures and in words, in the new documents that you
24 are seeking to tender, is pretty much illegible, but it is possible.
25 MR. JONES: Not only that, Your Honour. I think it's probably
1 right also to say that if one looks closely where it says "dinars," that
2 it looks -- the way the numbers are on the lines that it is -- in fact
3 that bit is identical. I think the carbon copy -- the invention of the
4 carbon copy might explain how we can have two copies which are identical
5 in some respects but with different writing in other parts of it. I
6 wouldn't want to venture too much into that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I don't think this is going to be
8 a problem. Do you seek to tender this document into evidence, Mr. Jones?
9 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which consists of two pages, ERN
11 04359969, two pages, as I said, one in B/C/S, partly in handwritten
12 format, and the other one being the corresponding translation into English
13 thereof, is being tendered, received, and marked as Defence Exhibit D838.
14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm moving to a different
15 area altogether now, so we'll leave exhibits for a little while.
16 Q. I want to turn now to the period after events in Fakovici on the
17 5th of October, 1992, until the end of the year. And if you could just
18 describe for us what the situation was like in your villages after
19 Fakovici and toward the end of 1992, just briefly, that would help set the
21 A. The situation was exceptionally difficult. Upon my return from
22 Zanjevo and when I entered the village of Jagodnja, I arrived at about
23 1.00 a.m. and my parents believed that I had been killed. Therefore, the
24 situation was difficult at the time. In addition, there was the daily
25 shelling of our villages, with the units coming in from all sides,
1 frequent incursions, people being wounded. And other people fleeing from
2 parts of Joseva for fear of being caught and slain. And there were people
3 coming over from other villages in search of food.
4 All in all, we had a large number of refugees in the village who
5 would go to Fakovici and Abdulici on a daily basis to look for food. Many
6 people were killed. We ourselves had no idea where all of those people
7 were from. Nobody went out to vacate the bodies; that would have been
8 impossible. So, for example, in Abdulici, in Zanjevo, people would go to
9 the field to pick the corn that was already overripe. It was too late to
10 harvest. But the field, the cornfield was mined, so many people were
11 killed there. Lots of people went there and went back.
12 Q. Thank you. You've told us how -- about the difficulties of
13 getting the bodies of people who had been killed. On the 5th of October,
14 1992, you mentioned how four people were killed in land-mines. Were you
15 able to retrieve those bodies?
16 A. Yes. Those four people who were killed, two of them on the 5th of
17 October, their bodies were retrieved immediately. Two days later, a man
18 came along from Osad [phoen], I believe. This is a place near
19 Kragljivoda. He was crying and he told us that his brother had been
20 killed in the area. He asked us to please give him a hand to try and
21 retrieve the body. So we decided to set out - and I was part of that
22 group - go all the way behind Radijevici, a village that had not yet
23 fallen. The soldiers had not yet entered the village. We knew that there
24 were those two bodies there that had been left behind, and eventually we
25 reached this area. It was very difficult to access the area. There was a
1 large open area and the forest right there.
2 Once we got to the bodies, we had already learned that Serb
3 soldiers sometimes booby-trapped dead bodies. We brought a length of rope
4 along and a stretcher, we would use just two sticks and put a blanket
5 between them. Once we got to the bodies, we tied them up, both bodies.
6 They were nearby. One of the booby-traps went off underneath one of the
7 bodies. The bodies were torn to shreds by the explosion. The weather was
8 warm, so the bodies had already begun to rot, and the hair had already
9 begun to fall off; therefore, it was a very difficult situation.
10 Q. So in short, the Serbs had actually booby-trapped these dead
11 bodies; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you have any idea why they would do that?
14 A. Of course I do. The people who did that, who booby-trapped the
15 bodies in order to get someone else killed, they used the opportunity to
16 set other booby-traps, because they knew that sooner or later someone
17 would come to try to pull the bodies out. And the aim was to kill other
18 people as well.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned in your testimony already how
20 you had lookouts from Jagodnja and Joseva. Among other things, you've
21 mentioned that they saw, did they see movement of boats across the Drina?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. JONES: I'd ask if the witness could be shown D43, please. And
24 for the record, this is concerning Zarko Bozic, born in Bratunac, who was
25 a soldier of the 3rd Infantry Battalion. And it says: "Bozic Zarko has
1 been in the RS army since the beginning of war activities. He took part
2 in combats in the area of Fakovici and Skelani."
3 And then leaving the part about his positive character attributes,
4 it says at the end: "The above-mentioned person drowned in the Drina on
5 January 9, 1993, transporting MTS and food from storage in FRY for the
6 needs of his unit."
7 Q. Now, this refers to the transportation of MTS in January 1993 and
8 food. Firstly, actually, do you know what MTS refers to?
9 A. MTS could be ammunition or weapons or even medicines, that sort of
10 thing. That's my opinion, at least. MTS usually refers to medication,
12 Q. Right. And this refers to that being done, or at least the person
13 drowning in January 1993, transporting that material. Are you aware of
14 whether that material was transported in this way in 1992?
15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, is he talking about being transported
16 by this person in relationship to this document or just transports of
17 types of material like that in 1992?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
19 MR. JONES: Yes. I'll deal with that. May I raise one issue,
20 Your Honour. I understood the practice was that counsel stands up and
21 then waits for an indication from Your Honour as to whether or not to
22 speak. I've noticed that that hasn't been observed over the last couple
23 of days.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, not really. It depends. One usually uses his
25 discretion and judgement in anticipation of what -- most of the time, as
1 you know, we anticipate what is going to be objected and most of the time,
2 sort of, it's reading the mind of counsel.
3 MR. JONES: We've been rebuked quite strongly I should say.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: On occasions, yes. And on occasions, as you know,
5 I've stopped the Prosecution and they wait. But this is the kind of
6 objection that I wasn't -- or seeking clarification that I had in mind
7 to. So that's why I allow it.
8 MR. JONES: We just ask for equal treatment, obviously.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Many a time you are allowed to do this
10 exactly the same. You are allowed while the previous cross-examination
11 was taking place.
12 MR. JONES: I'll proceed.
13 Q. My question -- I may have to stop the transcript now to find what
14 it was. I'll put it more broadly. Firstly, are you aware of any material
15 being transported from Serbia into Fakovici?
16 A. Yes. That's what our observers told us who were in these places
17 that I marked on the map. They observed boats crossing from Serbia into
18 Bosnia, and then the same boats would go back across the Drina near
19 Radijevica Potok, as well as between Fakovici and Bacevci.
20 Q. And do you know what was being transported? Were you able, you or
21 these lookouts, to observe what was being transported?
22 A. Yes. Our observers used binoculars to monitor this activity.
23 It's the sort of the binoculars that hunters use. There were men on those
24 boats and crates, or parcels. That, at least, was what they told us when
25 they came back from observing.
1 Q. And what time period was this?
2 A. This was after people had left Zanjevo. Those people, too,
3 followed the boats, but there was no information on what the boats were
4 carrying. They just told us that the boats were moving in that
5 direction. So that was after the attack, in July, or rather, early June.
6 It was on a daily basis that our observers moved around the area.
7 Sometimes they would go further down, whenever it was possible, when there
8 were no Serb patrols around, they would travel through the woods in order
9 to obtain just this kind of information, whether an attack was perhaps
10 imminent, whether shelling was imminent, or not, throughout this period of
11 time. This was a huge forest where you could move about and still avoid
12 the Serb patrols.
13 MR. JONES: Thank you. I've finished with that exhibit.
14 Q. Now, moving to a new area. Do you know a place called Glogova?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At some stage before -- well, I won't fix a time period. At some
17 stage did someone come to your village and tell you what was happening in
19 A. Yes. Early in 1993, it might have been January, the 1st, the 2nd,
20 the 3rd, the 4th - I don't know - early January, all in all, a man
21 arrived. I wasn't there myself; I was with the wounded. He came and he
22 asked to see Asim Smajlovic. So they met, they talked, and he requested
23 help in order to move on to Glogova, because they were facing a difficult
24 situation. There was no food for them and Serbs from attacking from
25 Kravica [Realtime transcript read in error "Kragljivoda"] and from
1 Bratunac, from both directions.
2 Q. Did you speak to this person personally?
3 A. Not at this point.
4 Q. Do you know where he had come from?
5 A. I think he said he had come from Goluba [as interpreted].
6 Q. And do you know if anyone sent him?
7 A. Yes. He said that Ejub Golic had sent him. The first time I ever
8 heard of that person.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones, because I see that line 8,
11 he -- at least the answer -- the transcript says he came from "Goluba."
12 And I think it's important that we establish that he meant or he said
13 Glogova and --
14 MR. JONES: I was about to clarify that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. JONES: There's another thing as well in the transcript which
17 is page 23, line 4, or 3, "Kragljivoda and from Bratunac" and I think we
18 all heard Kravica and Bratunac.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
20 MR. JONES:
21 Q. Now, going back to this: When I said where this man came from, I
22 meant what area. What village did he come from?
23 A. From Glogova; that's what I said.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned Ejub Golic. Had you heard of him
25 before this time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, he was asking for help in Glogova. Did any of you from
3 Jagodnja and Joseva go to help?
4 A. Yes. Asim Smajlovic asked people to volunteer to go there and to
5 help those people. Immediately, between 10 and 15 people volunteered and
6 he then asked me whether I was willing to join those people, as I was the
7 only nurse around. I'm not sure how I should put it. Therefore, I
8 decided to join these fighters who had suffered so much at Jagodnja. I
9 was afraid that the same thing might befall them again, namely, they would
10 be injured and there would be no one to dress their wounds. So that was
11 the reason why I decided to join.
12 Q. Right. Thank you. I think when you said "I'm not sure how I
13 should put it," you weren't sure whether to say medical sister or medical
14 brother. That was the terminological confusion.
15 A. Yes. Well, that would be one way of putting it. Probably not
16 really medical sister; perhaps brother, medical brother.
17 Q. Okay. Did Asim Smajlovic go along? Was he in this group of 10 to
18 15 people?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I don't know if you can show us on the map, if you're provided
21 with the map again, the route. If you could trace the route you took.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Obviously it may be difficult for you to be precise, but if you
24 can just indicate without drawing exactly with the pointer where you went.
25 A. No, no. I won't draw. So there is Jagodnja, the way out of
1 Jagodnja, and there is an area where there's just a forest and we were
2 going to Kravica through this forest all the way to Murselovici, and below
3 Osmace, and we got down to Zeleni Jadar, which stretches across this area.
4 So this is Jadar and then we went this way through Jadar and we got out
5 just above Pusmulici, and then we went down to the village of Bajramovici.
6 It is not indicated on the map because -- yeah, it just isn't on the
8 So it should be somewhere here, the village called Bajramovici.
9 You can't see it on this map, in fact.
10 MR. JONES: We may have another map.
11 Q. But for my purposes, I simply wanted to ask you this: Is it
12 right, then, that you didn't go through Srebrenica on your way to Glogova?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And is there any reason why you didn't go through Srebrenica?
15 A. Yes. This man who was our guide, who was with us in this group,
16 who had come from Glogova, he -- through Srebrenica and he said that there
17 were shellings all the time and that at that time we should have gone
18 below Srebrenica, in the direction of Potocari, where there were snipers
19 from an area called Zvijezda, I believe, and therefore it is not possible
20 to go through the corridor with a group of about 15 people.
21 Q. Right. How long did it take you to get to the Glogova area?
22 A. Approximately two days, travelling on foot.
23 Q. And where -- if you know, where exactly did you arrive after those
24 two days? What village?
25 A. We were told that the name of the village was Cizmici. It is near
1 Bljeceva. Before the war, I had never been there, and it was the first
2 time I was there on that occasion. We got there at dusk, and we were told
3 the name of the village was Cizmici.
4 Q. And what did you do that evening, and what did you do the next
6 A. That evening when we got there, when we got to Cizmici, we entered
7 a house and some people welcomed us. I don't know who they were. And we
8 had dinner. We had our own food in our backpacks. And I was a bit tired,
9 so I took a nap. And at some point after midnight, maybe 2 or 3.00 a.m.,
10 somebody came along and said that we had to get up and go and move towards
11 Glogova, I suppose. And we were given some white ribbons that we tied
12 across our foreheads.
13 Q. Do you know roughly what date this was?
14 A. I think it was the night between the 6th and the 7th of January.
15 Q. So then did you set off and go towards Glogova on the 7th of
17 A. Yes. We went from there. There were quite a few civilians there,
18 people walking around the village. It was total chaos and it was all in
19 dark, during the night, and we went and followed this man who was walking
20 in front of us. And he led us through the woods and creeks, and there was
21 snow on the ground, and it was so difficult that it was almost impossible
22 to stand all that.
23 Q. You say there were quite a few civilians there. Can you give us
24 an idea of the numbers of civilians that you saw in the area that morning?
25 A. On that morning, or during the night, and at daybreak -- I mean,
1 it wasn't really possible to count, but there were thousands of civilians
2 with backpacks and there was a total confusion. And they were walking in
3 front of us, behind us, and we couldn't really make out where our own
4 group members were in that confusion.
5 Q. Thank you. You mentioned how you were given some white ribbons
6 that you tied across your foreheads. You've mentioned these civilians.
7 Did any of these civilians wear white ribbons as well, or was it only your
9 A. Some civilians had that as well, and everybody I could see. It
10 was -- quite simply, I can't explain to you what it looked like.
11 Q. Right. So you say: "Some civilians had that as well, and
12 everybody I could see." What do you mean by that?
13 A. Yes. Yes, the civilians were wearing those white ribbons across
14 their foreheads.
15 Q. Were all of them wearing white ribbons, thousands of them, or only
16 some of them?
17 A. I mean, I can't tell you about thousands of people, but the group
18 that I saw, the people that were around me, we all had those white
20 Q. Right. Okay. I think that's clear.
21 Now, during the day, was there any shelling at any stage?
22 A. In the course of that morning, as we were approaching - I was told
23 we were going towards Glogova and that we were approaching Glogova -
24 shooting and shelling started. I don't know where exactly it came from.
25 But when we approached the village, at that moment, I was told that the
1 name of the village was Jezestica. That's my recollection. And we were
2 in that forest. A great deal of shooting came out of that village behind
3 those houses, and I realised that it wasn't Glogova, in fact.
4 Q. Thank you. I want to take this bit by bit now. This village
5 which you were told was Jezestica, was it on a hill or in a valley?
6 A. Well, we were in the forest. And as soon as we came out of the
7 forest, there were houses not far away, maybe a hundred or 200 metres
8 away, maybe a little bit further. I can't tell you exactly, because this
9 was a long time ago. And then there was a kind of valley behind those
11 Q. So the houses, were they in the valley or were they on the hill?
12 A. I can't tell you. They were halfway up, next to the forest. I
13 really can't tell you exactly.
14 Q. You say "a great deal of shooting came out of that village,
15 Jezestica," as you've described, "behind those houses." Was the shooting
16 coming from behind the house or --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sorry. Let me just finish my question. Was the shooting coming
19 from the houses or from some other location behind the houses?
20 A. The shooting came mostly from where I was, from those houses, and
21 higher up, where other people were. I think there was a four-barrelled
22 weapon, and I was told that it was being used all the time incessantly and
23 there was shooting coming from those houses all the time. Basically,
24 there was shooting coming out of every single house.
25 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, you mentioned these civilians who were in
1 the area. In your opinion, or to your knowledge, was it possible to
2 prevent these civilians from going into this area?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why do you say that?
5 A. No, because, and I've already mentioned this, I mentioned this
6 yesterday in my statement, people were following even the smallest group
7 of people who were armed, they went in the direction of shelling,
8 shooting, where the action was, any kind of action. Because they were
9 expecting to find food, clothes, or anything else that might be useful for
10 sheer survival.
11 Q. And the shooting from these houses that you've described, were
12 these Serbs or Muslims shooting from the houses?
13 A. Yes, it was the Serbs who were shooting from those houses.
14 Q. And did they manage to resist or did the village fall?
15 A. They put up resistance, but within a short period of time, the
16 village did in fact fall. Actually, the civilians entered the village
17 even before the army, before the armed groups, I mean, and people who had
18 arms, they went in before. And when we entered, when I myself entered the
19 village, I came across a bakery, and it was full of bread, and the bread
20 was fresh, and I couldn't wait to get my hands on a loaf of bread, to eat
21 some bread, because this type of bread, white bread, was something that I
22 hadn't even set my eyes on for about six months. So people were actually
23 elbowing one another out of the way, trying to get their hands on the food
24 and make sure that they can get some food and take it back to Srebrenica
25 or back to the villages that they had come from.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Thank you. So you said the civilians entered the village even
2 before the men who were bearing arms; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you've described how they were essentially fighting for food,
5 elbowing each other out of the way. Did you see -- let me put it this
6 way: As far as you know, did the civilians have any interest in burning
7 houses in that village?
8 A. Look, those civilians who came there, setting houses on fire was
9 the least of their worries. Whoever got there, got there only and
10 exclusively to find food, clothes, footwear, and I see no reason
11 whatsoever why any civilian would have wanted to set any houses on fire at
12 that time, before entering, because I myself went into two houses and I
13 found first aid kits, medicines, bandages and I collected all that. I
14 mean, some people wouldn't even look at that. It was not their top
15 priority. Their priority was food and clothes. And at that stage, I
16 didn't see a single house in Jezestica being set on fire. There were
17 people who were injured, and I tried to dress their wounds and give them
18 first aid, et cetera.
19 Q. How many people were injured, roughly?
20 A. About ten people that I myself attended to at that stage, and I
21 offered first aid to them.
22 Q. And what had they been wounded by? Was it from shooting or from
23 shelling or from both?
24 A. People were injured by both bullets and shells, and shells were
25 landing from the direction of Kravica, as was mentioned before. And I was
1 in a position which I didn't know where Kravica was or where Glogova was.
2 But the other people who were there, they were more familiar with the area
3 and they told me that the shells were coming from Kravica, from the
4 direction of Kravica.
5 MR. JONES: I think the -- that will be corrected later, Kravica,
6 yes, in line 24.
7 Q. You've mentioned how you went into a bakery. Did you take food
8 away from there or did you eat it straight away?
9 A. I ate a warm loaf of bread on the spot; it was good.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter unfortunately didn't hear the
11 last sentence.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you hear that, Mr. Jones?
13 MR. JONES: Yes.
14 Q. Sorry. Could you repeat your answer, please.
15 A. Yes, I do remember. You asked me whether I ate the bread on the
16 spot or whether I put it in my backpack; and I replied that I ate it on
17 the spot, and I can still remember how good it was.
18 Q. And was that before the shelling or shooting, or that was in the
19 midst of shelling or shooting that you ate this bread?
20 A. It was in the midst of shelling and shooting, because those were
21 the first houses that we entered. The first house was the bakery, which
22 was on the border of the woods, and it was easy to get into that house.
23 Q. And at what time of day was it now? You said how you set off in
24 the morning. What time of day was it, let's say, when you went into the
1 A. Well, it's a bit difficult. Roughly speaking, between 8.00 and
2 9.00. I can't tell you exactly. Because what sticks in your mind is --
3 well, at least as far as I'm concerned, my recollection of Kravica has to
4 do with this bread that I ate there. I can't tell you what time it was.
5 At any point between 7.00 a.m. and 9.00 a.m., according to my estimation.
6 Q. And was it still dark at that stage or was it light?
7 A. It wasn't dark, of course. It was already light.
8 Q. And how long did you stay in Jezestica?
9 A. I myself stayed at Jezestica for a very short time. There were
10 some injured, and these people from my group decided that I should go in
11 the direction -- well, basically we went down to the asphalt road. I
12 don't know what the name of the area was. And we came out to a place
13 called Avdagina Njive, if I remember correctly, and then we moved towards
14 Cizmici together with the injured. I myself was going together with the
15 injured. And I'm not really personally familiar with what happened
16 afterwards in Kravica, around Kravica, and Glogova. So I myself
17 accompanied the injured to Cizmici.
18 Q. And finally, just on Jezestica, how would you describe the
19 shelling which you experienced in Jezestica? Was it light shelling,
20 medium shelling, heavy shelling?
21 A. In my view -- well, I mean, every shell is heavy. So a single
22 shell, even a single shell, is a serious matter, because it can kill
23 people. So there was a lot of shelling from the direction of Kravica. I
24 can't tell you exactly how many shells landed there, but basically there
25 were shells coming from that direction. And as far as I can tell, the
1 destruction caused was extremely serious. Even if a single man is killed,
2 it's serious shelling.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you return to Jagodnja and Joseva after this?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. And how long did the return journey take you?
6 A. Again, about two days, because we were tired, exhausted. And we
7 tended to rest a little bit longer. And I was waiting for those people
8 from my group who had stayed behind. I waited for them at Cizmici, and
9 then we continued on our journey. Some of them were carrying food, some
10 were carrying clothes or cigarettes that they found. And so we were fully
11 loaded, as we used to say. We had a full load of food and I myself had
12 found some medicines, et cetera. And so we continued on our way to
14 Q. Now, did there come a time when Jagodnja fell to the Serbs?
15 A. In Jagodnja?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. The Serb presence in Jagodnja -- or rather, look, I think you
18 should clarify this yes.
19 Q. My apologies. I think it must have been the interpretation,
20 because I --
21 A. Yes, there was a time in 1993.
22 Q. When was the date, if you know?
23 A. Jagodnja fell, in my view -- actually, the attacks lasted -- could
24 I just try and clarify this, as when the attacks at Jagodnja started?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... this, Mr. Jones?
1 MR. JONES: Well, let me --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if he wants to clarify, I will let him
3 clarify it.
4 MR. JONES: Yes, I'd like him to, and I'd like to just say
5 something to clarify it even more, if possible.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So go ahead, Mr. Alic.
7 MR. JONES: May I precede that, Your Honour? I'd like to make an
8 explanation first.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
10 MR. JONES: Yes.
11 Q. My apologies, Mr. Alic, I skipped, obviously, from January 1993 to
12 a time considerably later, and I should have let you know that I was going
13 to move to a later period. So my apologies. I think that was the
15 I wanted to start with when Jagodnja and Joseva fell completely to
16 the Serbs, and then work back from there. So if you can just tell me when
17 Jagodnja and Joseva fell to the Serbs, then we'll proceed from there.
18 A. The attacks that followed in March 1993 started on around the 5th,
19 the 6th, the 7th, up until the day when the village fell. As to shelling,
20 well, there was daily shelling from Serbia, from multi-barrelled mortars,
21 from the direction of Fakovici, mortars were being used at Fakovici and
22 Bijeli Kamen, and those were horrendous days, probably the worst days of
23 my life, after starvation, after suffering the cold throughout the winter,
24 there was this powerful attack, relentless attacks day and night, and
25 sometimes a single weapon would fire 16 shells in one go. And they were
1 aiming at the village of Hasanovici, which had not been set on fire.
2 There were about 10, a dozen houses there, and sometimes shells would set
3 fire to stables or sometimes those stables or houses were set on fire. We
4 had some houses with wooden tiles or thatched roofs, and so those were
5 bloody days that one can't forget very easily. And also there was an area
6 including the road out of the village and we could no longer move there,
7 and we were fully surrounded as of the 10th of March by the JNA. And we
8 found that those were only and exclusively the soldiers from the JNA, and
9 they were armed to their teeth, basically. And we fell on the 12th or the
10 13th of March, 1993, because we just had to move out. We had to run
11 away. We were fully surrounded. And the group of people who had some
12 weapons tried to push their way in the direction of Biljeg, through a
13 forest, during the night. And it was a rocky area. There were craggy
14 rocks there. And when we crossed over to Biljeg, we were ambushed by the
15 Serb forces. And about ten people were wounded on that occasion. And
16 when we crossed over to the village, Miholjevine, I saw that my father and
17 mother were missing and quite a few other family it members. And
18 therefore, on the very same evening we had to go back to Jagodnja, and
19 there was a forest above Jagodnja where those people were hiding. There
20 were about 100 people, elderly people, women, children, who were not able
21 to get out at that stage. So we tried once again to cross over together
22 with them and we had other injured and wounded by the Serb soldiers, and
23 my father and three women were captured on that occasion.
24 Q. Thank you. That's very helpful, that detail. I need to go back
25 for one or two matters. You say the attacks that followed in March
1 started on the 5th, 6th, and 7th. What month is that?
2 A. March.
3 Q. And before March, between January and March, was it peaceful in
4 Jagodnja and Joseva or were there also attacks and shelling?
5 A. No. After the arrival, or rather, after the first half of January
6 1993, there was the very same shelling from Serbia, from those areas, and
7 between the 20th of January and the 30th of January, there was shelling on
8 a daily basis, as well as infantry attacks. And our villages, I mean,
9 Joseva, for example, was completely surrounded. And in that month of
10 January we suffered huge losses in terms of the people killed. Many
11 people were killed, civilians, and they set fire to stables and about 30
12 animals in those stables, cattle. And our cattle was in the stables, and
13 everything was set on fire; and it was just horrible. And believe me, it
14 is very difficult for me to talk about it.
15 Q. We'll be moving on. But in other words, then, there were attacks
16 and shelling and all the terrible things you've described in January as
17 well, January and February, but only in the beginning of March did the
18 final offensive take place; is that a fair summary?
19 A. Yes, as I said in my first statement.
20 Q. And you've described now in the attack in March, the use of
21 artillery, and you said that one weapon could shoot 16 shells in one go.
22 Do you know what that's referred to, that particular weapon?
23 A. It was a multi-barrelled rocket launcher, VBR, as we used to call
25 Q. And can you explain to the Trial Chamber the sort of damage that a
1 VBR can do to houses?
2 A. A VBR can raze your house down to the ground. It can set it on
3 fire; a shell can set a house on fire. I tried to explain this a couple
4 of minutes ago. So if you have a stable which is full of hay, and all
5 this is flammable, and of course it would be set on fire by shells, VBRs,
6 any kind of shell at that time can land on a roof of a house. Because we
7 were watching all that, and it was really and truly horrible. And it was
8 almost impossible to follow everything. And we would go down a road, and
9 one shell would be landing across the road, in front of us, the other
10 behind us, within a perimeter of ten metres you would have several shells
11 landing at any given time.
12 Q. And you mentioned Hasanovici, a hamlet of Jagodnja. Can you
13 explain what damage was caused to Hasanovici by shells.
14 A. In March 1993, on the 13th or the 12th, Hasanovici fell. It
15 remained under the control of the Serbs and we moved out. In January
16 1993, likewise, Hasanovici had been destroyed, devastated. Some houses
17 were torched at that time as a result of shelling. Therefore, from
18 January to March we were still at Jagodnja and Joseva, staying in whatever
19 houses were still there and were habitable. People would mend some of the
20 damage, things that had burned down, but we stayed until as late as
21 March. After March, however, it was impossible to survive in the area.
22 Q. So Hasanovici was devastated by shelling; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. JONES: I have a -- with the usher's assistance, a new exhibit
25 for the witness. It's ERN 04284977. Uzice Corps command, strictly
1 confidential number 173-13, dated January 27, 1993. And it's addressed to
2 VRS RS army, Drina Corps command.
3 Q. In this regard, in fact, there's also, I think, a correction for
4 the transcript, or perhaps of interpretation. You referred to the
5 Yugoslav army being involved in 1993. Is that correct, Yugoslav army
6 rather than the JNA?
7 A. The Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav People's Army.
8 I'm no longer sure myself what they call it. Those were people from
9 Serbia, active-service Yugoslav army.
10 Q. That's very clear. Thank you.
11 Looking at this document, first of all, Uzice Corps command, do
12 you know what Uzice is?
13 A. I've never been to Uzice myself, but I know that it is in Serbia.
14 Q. According to this, the command of that corps in Serbia, on the
15 27th of January, 1993, was addressing the VRS, RS army Drina Corps
16 command, i.e., a command in Serbia addressing the Republika Srpska army.
17 Is that correct? Do you see the reference to VRS there?
18 A. Yes, I see that.
19 Q. I'm going to read -- that's fine. I'm going to read a section of
20 this document. I'm going to start below the three numbered paragraphs:
21 "In our combat activities so far, we inflicted huge losses to the enemy in
22 the village of Mlecevo, Jagodnja, Joseva, the village of Daljegosta,
23 Arapovici, the village of Pavkovici, the village of Tihici, the village of
24 Milicevici, Osmace, the village of Tokoljac, and Jezero."
25 Now, firstly, you see the mention of huge losses inflicted on
1 Jagodnja and Joseva. Can you confirm that that was the case prior to 27
2 January 1993?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I want you to look at the other villages which I've just read out.
5 Mlecevo. Now, was that before the war a Serb or a Muslim village?
6 A. A Serb village.
7 Q. So is it correct that this is apparently a call from Serbia
8 informing the VRS that huge losses had been inflicted on the enemy in a
9 Serb village?
10 A. Can you please clarify that, sir?
11 Q. Yes. According to this document, huge losses were inflicted to
12 the enemy in the village of Mlecevo; correct?
13 A. I wasn't in Mlecevo to know what the losses there were. I was at
14 Jagodnja and Joseva.
15 Q. Yes. I'm just referring to what's in this document. Let me put a
16 different question. You've told us that Mlecevo was a Serb village before
17 the war. In your experience, in this time, Serb artillery --
18 A. Yes. It was a Serb village.
19 Q. And in your experience, in this period, did Serb artillery
20 sometimes fire indiscriminately on Serb and Muslim villages alike when
21 they were retaking an area?
22 A. Yes. Yes, certainly. Yes. Yes. They targeted everyone alike.
23 They made no distinction between Serb and Muslim villages. They used this
24 multiple rocket launcher to fire on all these areas, also the other areas,
25 Godzevici, Prijnos [phoen], Daljegosta, all the other villages too. They
1 were cleansing the area indiscriminately. I'm not sure how to explain
2 this. It was a single line that was moving, clearing the area, all the
3 way to Srebrenica, irregardless of who was where. Because these soldiers
4 had no idea where Muslims were and where Serbs were. They had been given
5 a map and they just targeted everyone alike.
6 Q. Thank you. Arapovici, was that a Serb or Muslim village before
7 the war?
8 A. Arapovici was a Serb village.
9 Q. And Jezero, was that in Serb hands in 1992 and early 1993?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'm moving to a new area, so I'm finished with that document.
12 MR. JONES: I'd just ask for an exhibit number, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: This document which consists in one page in B/C/S
14 language and two pages in the corresponding translation thereof into
15 English is being received and marked as Defence Exhibit D839. The ERN
16 number is 04284977.
17 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions going back to 1992 just
19 about Asim Smajlovic and the people in Jagodnja and Joseva. So just so
20 you know we're moving to a new area.
21 You've told us how you appointed Asim Smajlovic to be your leader
22 in Jagodnja and Joseva in 1992; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did he answer to any other leader, to your knowledge?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Are you aware if orders were ever received in Jagodnja and Joseva
2 in 1992 from outside?
3 A. No.
4 Q. To your knowledge, did Asim Smajlovic in 1992 go to Srebrenica to
5 attend meetings?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And did you -- well, explain why you say that. Are you in a
8 position to say whether he did or not?
9 A. He didn't go.
10 Q. And explain why you -- how you know that.
11 A. I know because he was in Jagodnja and Joseva throughout.
12 Q. Okay. Now, dealing with the fighters in Jagodnja and Joseva, did
13 they have uniforms in 1992?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did they have ranks, like captain, lieutenant, colonel?
16 A. No. No. No.
17 Q. Did they have a barracks?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did they have an armoury?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did they receive salaries for fighting?
22 A. No.
23 Q. During that time, 1992, was there any way of making someone do
24 something which he didn't want to do, for example, to go to fight when he
25 preferred to stay at home?
1 A. No. No. There was no way that anyone could force anyone else or
2 tell them to go somewhere, that they had to go somewhere and do something
3 about these combat operations, or anything else.
4 Q. I think the way it's come out in the transcript, we'll need
5 clarification. That's all one sentence as I heard it. There was no
6 way -- tell me if this is correct. You said there was no way that anyone
7 could force anyone else or tell them to go somewhere. I'm going to have
8 to start again, because the way it's come out is not clear.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- basically, however, I think that the
10 first sentence of his answer explains it all. So if you want to pursue
11 it, do so by all means, but I think it's clear enough.
12 MR. JONES: Okay.
13 Q. Well, for the record, then, I want to make clear that it was: No
14 way that anyone could force anyone or tell them to do -- to go somewhere,
15 no way that anyone could tell them that they had to go somewhere and do
16 something. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes. Well, yes. No one could order anyone else to go somewhere
18 they didn't want to go.
19 MR. JONES: I would actually -- I may subsequently ask for a
20 correction to the transcript to include a comma, because that's not a fair
21 rendition, but Your Honour has confirmed that, so I'll move on.
22 Q. Was anyone ever punished for desertion or cowardice if they ran
23 away during combat?
24 A. No.
25 Q. To your knowledge, and based on your experience, was there any way
1 of doing that, of punishing someone for desertion or cowardice?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did people in fact in Jagodnja and Joseva do as they pleased,
5 A. Can you please clarify that?
6 Q. I think that's fine. I'll withdraw that question and put this
7 question instead: Was there any meaningful way of issuing orders in
8 Jagodnja and Joseva in 1992?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Moving to another area, but I think I can cover it
11 before the break.
12 In 1992 -- I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure of that, because the witness is getting
15 MR. JONES: In that case, I think perhaps it's best to pause now
16 and then to ...
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a 30-minute break starting from now.
18 That means we'll start at a quarter to 1.00 or just past it. Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, you may proceed.
22 MR. JONES: Thank you. I anticipate I'll conclude in about half
23 an hour.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, in 1992, did you know someone called Ahmo Tihic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Before the war, do you know what his activities were?
2 A. Yes. Ahmo Tihic was a cattle merchant. He was an entrepreneur
3 and he owned a butchery at Skelani.
4 Q. Was he wealthy or poor?
5 A. He was a wealthy person.
6 Q. Was he politically active, to your knowledge?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know with which political party?
9 A. The SDA.
10 Q. Do you know where he's from, what village?
11 A. From Tihici.
12 Q. And then that's in what area?
13 A. Skelani.
14 Q. Was he still in his village of Tihici in the summer of 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And do you know why not?
17 A. Because the Muslims had been expelled from that area in early May
19 Q. And do you know where he went from Tihici?
20 A. I don't.
21 Q. Do you know where he was in the summer of 1992?
22 A. The summer of 1992, in late July, a man arrived in Jagodnja and
23 Joseva, telling us to go to a place called Biljeg. Asim Smajlovic,
24 myself, and another three or four men went across the woods and reached
25 the place eventually. We found Ahmo Tihic at Biljeg, in the woods.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Is Biljeg -- was it an inhabited or uninhabited area?
2 A. This was in the forest. There were no buildings there.
3 Q. And do you know why -- or why did you go along with these other
4 men to Biljeg?
5 A. At this point in time, we didn't even think about the reason.
6 Once we got there, however, something was being said about help being
7 exchanged between Jagodnja and Joseva, on the one hand, and Biljeg, on the
8 other. Ahmo Tihic proposed that we should join forces with him in order
9 to defend these areas. We asked for Ahmo Tihic and his group of people,
10 who were at Biljeg, to go to Jagodnja and Joseva so that we could join
11 forces in defending ourselves from the Serb soldiers there. However, he
12 simply replied, "I can't accept that." He smiled and he said, "There's no
13 need for me to go to Jagodnja and Joseva." The distance must have been
14 seven or eight kilometres across the woods. So no agreement was reached
15 about that.
16 Q. And just why did you personally go along with this group to
18 A. At this time, it wasn't safe to go to Biljeg, so Asim told me --
19 asked me if I'd like to join them. I had my bag with the first-aid kit
20 and I set out. There was a risk that if we were ambushed on the way,
21 somebody would be injured, so I was there to give assistance to whoever
22 had been wounded or injured.
23 Q. Thank you. And you said that in fact this proposal for the help
24 between Biljeg and Jagodnja and Joseva didn't come to anything; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know someone called Almas Hasanovic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know where he's from?
5 A. Almas Hasanovic is from Zanjevo.
6 Q. In your conversations with Ahmo Tihic, either then or later, did
7 he ever say anything about Almas Hasanovic?
8 A. In early August, we found out, because a man had arrived from
9 Biljeg -- actually, several people. It was never one man alone moving in
10 that direction, because it was an enormous forest, there could have been
11 Serbs controlling the area or anyone else who happened to be there. Two or
12 three persons arrived - I can't remember exactly - they met Asim Smajlovic
13 and told him to go to Biljeg. He went, and I was there myself, along with
14 these several other people. We came to Biljeg. We found Ahmo in the
15 woods there. There were some makeshift chairs made of wood.
16 Almas Hasanovic was seated next to Ahmo Tihic. Ahmo told us that
17 someone from Srebrenica had sent Almas Hasanovic from Zanjevo to take over
18 this group of people at Biljeg. He just smiled and he said that nobody
19 could lead that group of people at Biljeg. He proposed to Asim, here's
20 this man, and he can take the group to Jagodnja and Joseva, in order for
21 him to more easily reach his village of Joseva [as interpreted]. On our
22 way back to Jagodnja, Asim Smajlovic told me personally, "Since Ahmo Tihic
23 doesn't want me, I don't want him either."
24 Q. Thank you. Just going back to that, Ahmo Tihic smiled --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones. Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said, On
2 our way back he told me personally if Ahmo Tihic doesn't want him,
3 therefore Almas, I don't want him either. And what I see recorded here,
4 If Tihic doesn't want me, I don't want him either, which is a totally
5 different meaning, if you think about what the witness said.
6 MR. JONES: Yes. If you could just tell us what --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. Perhaps you could take this ...
8 MR. JONES: Yes.
9 Q. If you tell us what Asim Smajlovic said about -- about Almas
11 A. Asim Smajlovic said what I said. He said, "If Ahmo Tihic does not
12 want to accept Almas Hasanovic at Biljeg, then I will not accept him as
13 the leader of the group at Jagodnja and Joseva either."
14 Q. And also I think we need to correct the transcript where it says
15 "Ahmo proposed Asim, Here's this man and he can take the group to Jagodnja
16 and Joseva in order for him to more easily reach his village of ..." And
17 what village was that?
18 A. Zanjevo.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones, for that.
21 MR. JONES: Thank you.
22 Q. And as far as the proposal from someone from Srebrenica, there
23 was -- you told us that Almas Hasanovic should take over the group of
24 people at Biljeg. Who at that time was in fact, to your knowledge,
25 heading the group at Biljeg?
1 A. The group at Biljeg was headed by Ahmo Tihic.
2 Q. So in other words, someone from Srebrenica sent Almas Hasanovic to
3 take over from Ahmo, and Ahmo Tihic smiled at that idea and didn't accept
4 it; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Now, did Almas stay in the Jagodnja and Joseva area?
7 A. Yes. Almas Hasanovic had no weapon or anything. He was a fine
8 young man, my generation. We were personal acquaintances. He spent about
9 15 days in Jagodnja. He lingered about the area. We still had food. And
10 after those 15 days, he left for Biljeg. I have no idea where he ended up
11 after that.
12 Q. Now, do you know about the background of Almas Hasanovic in terms
13 of his education or military training?
14 A. Yes. Almas Hasanovic was a military official. He had completed a
15 military academy before the war. That's one thing I know.
16 Q. When you went to Biljeg and you heard that he was being proposed
17 to head a group, how did you feel about that? Did you have any feelings
18 one way or the other?
19 A. Yes. We thought it would turn out like that, that Almas
20 Hasanovic, being a military official, would take over command of the group
21 at Biljeg. We were pleased and there was a palpable relief among us.
22 However, when it turned out that this would not be the case, we were
23 disappointed and not feeling very pleasant, in general.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, perhaps for one -- may I interrupt you
25 for a minute.
1 Mr. Alic, could you indicate on the map where Biljeg is, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. Right here,
3 in this area.
4 MR. JONES: Perhaps you could mark that with a pen, with a "B."
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And for the record, the witness marks with a
7 "B" the site where he maintains Biljeg is, and this is in the proximity of
8 Miholjevine, beneath the range of mountains that is called Orlova Bukva
10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, Asim Smajlovic also didn't accept the idea of Almas Hasanovic
12 being any type of leader in Jagodnja and Joseva; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, knowing the people of this -- of your area and the times, can
15 you help us with this: Was it possible for people to come from outside a
16 village to come in and take over command? Was that something which
17 happened or which could happen?
18 A. No. That wasn't possible. No one trusted anyone else by this
19 time. There was no chance of anyone coming from anywhere else to take
20 over command or issue orders or lead that group of people in our village,
21 or any other village, for that matter.
22 Q. And is that the explanation for why Almas Hasanovic was neither
23 the leader in Biljeg or in Jagodnja and Joseva?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. JONES: I'd like to show a video, that's P433, and we're
1 starting at 5400, and then going to around 5810. So it's about four
2 minutes. There's a transcript, P433.1.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. JONES: I just want to pause for a second to see if --
5 Q. Witness, can you hear the words which are being spoken? I know
6 it's faint, but are you able to hear?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. JONES: Okay. We can play it, then.
10 [Videotape played]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a whole lot of
12 background noise, and it's annoying. I can't listen properly.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I very much doubt if we can find a solution to
14 that. We are hearing the same as you are.
15 MR. JONES: Yes. It's the quality of the video.
16 Q. And that's why, Mr. Alic, if you can just bear with the background
17 noise, if you are able to hear what's being said. It's a four-minute
18 section and then I'll have questions for you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not going to last long. I mean, please explain
20 that to him.
21 MR. JONES: Yes.
22 Q. It's brief.
23 A. Okay. Fine.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. JONES:
1 Q. I just want to ask you there, first of all, do you recognise the
2 man who's being interviewed?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Who is it?
5 A. Ahmo Tihic.
6 Q. And do you recognise the area?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. As?
9 A. It's the forest at Biljeg.
10 Q. I don't know if you know the other gentleman who is doing the
11 interview. Do you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, you will have heard -- or let me put it this way: Did you
14 hear it being said that Ahmo Tihic went up to that area to defend the
15 terrain in Biljeg?
16 A. No, I didn't hear that.
17 Q. Well, I'll read what we have in our transcript and see if it
18 corresponds to what you did hear: "A man called Tihic says: "In Skelani,
19 when the Serbian extremists seized the police station, we retreated with
20 these armed men. We went up there to Kragljivoda. For the most part,
21 people did not want to accept us anywhere. People were avoiding us. They
22 were afraid of torching. Wherever we went, whatever village we came to,
23 they sent us away. Most of the combatants who were with me are together
24 with me now."
25 My question is just this: Did you understand that to be the
1 situation of Ahmo Tihic and his men, that they weren't actually able to
2 settle in a village and had to settle in this uninhabited area?
3 A. Yes, I do understand.
4 Q. I don't know if you're familiar with Robin Hood in your country.
5 Is that someone -- a character you're familiar with?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it a similar situation that we're describing here, a man and
8 his band of men in the woods?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. And we see that Ahmo Tihic is in some kind of uniform, although
11 it's not so clear from his footwear, but the others are just in ordinary
12 clothes. Is that how they appeared in the video, is that how they
13 appeared when you saw them in the summer of 1992?
14 A. Yes. When I saw those people, I mean, Ahmo Tihic had no uniform
15 at all, and these other people were also wearing civilian clothes,
16 T-shirts, pants, and they had rather primitive and shoddy footwear.
17 Q. We'll continue playing the video, and please listen as carefully
18 as you can to what's being said.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. JONES: Yes. We can stop that there.
21 Q. Did you hear Fakovici mentioned in that video?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. And you heard the -- Ahmo Tihic saying, "They are still shelling
24 with the heavy weaponry, with the artillery. They are shelling from
25 Fakovici down there under Zljebac."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, the date on the screen appears to be 14th of August, 1992.
3 We can't see it so clearly now, but we saw it in another frame. Does that
4 fit in with your experience of the situation in Biljeg?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, do we have a date when he himself went to
7 Biljeg? He may have said it and I may not recall it, but --
8 MR. JONES: He mentioned once in end of July.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I just wanted to establish
10 whether it is a time proximate to what we are seeing on the screen now or
12 MR. JONES: Yes. In fact, I think there are two visits he
13 referred to.
14 Q. Can you remind us, please, Mr. Alic, when the two trips to Biljeg
15 took place.
16 A. I said that I was there twice, by the end of July and between the
17 beginning and mid-August. I can't remember the exact date, but the first
18 half of August.
19 Q. Thank you. And we briefly saw a sort of structure there, a
20 canvas, a sort of tent-like structure. When you went to Biljeg, did you
21 see any solid buildings?
22 A. No. There are no facilities of any sort of around Biljeg. I
23 could perhaps illustrate it on a map, but at any rate, there are no
24 houses, no buildings, no outbuildings, stables, nothing of the sort.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. JONES: I've finished with that exhibit. I'll ask if the
2 witness could please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 80, P80, and P94. I may
3 as well have that be shown at the same time.
4 Q. And just for the record, since this is a lengthy document, we
5 reviewed this document, did we not, in our offices when you came here to
6 The Hague?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, just for the record, it's Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
9 Srebrenica armed forces staff, the date is 19 September 1993, breakdown of
10 the formation structure of Srebrenica OS during the past period. Now, we
11 have first formation structure on 20 May 1992, Srebrenica TO staff was
12 formed in Bajramovici; from 17 April 1992 to mid-October 1992 the first
13 regional units were formed under the auspices of the TO, namely -- and I
14 won't force you to go through all of this. But I can certainly state for
15 the record that Jagodnja and Joseva is not mentioned anywhere there.
16 Would you agree that even on -- in October 1992, no armed group
17 from Jagodnja and Joseva was even on paper within the structure of the --
18 of any Srebrenica TO staff?
19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think this --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer this question first and then we see.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We were not in any of these TO
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, my question -- or my objection was more
1 specific in terms of not being able to say that any -- that not -- that
2 Jagodnja and Joseva was not even on paper.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was in relation to what is shown on
4 this document.
5 MS. SELLERS: I don't know whether that was in relationship to the
6 document, because I believe that Defence counsel has said that that is not
7 in the document, and this document dates from 1993, according to what's
8 clearly on its face. And I believe the question went to October 1992, in
9 paperwork of October 1992, which isn't before Mr. Alic at this point in
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But he said even in October of 1992, that was
12 what Mr. Jones asked or pointed out to the witness.
13 MS. SELLERS: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 Anyway, Mr. Jones, what's your reaction to this? Because I think
16 I understood perfectly well what your question was.
17 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, if --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That basically, as I understood you, you were
19 stating or putting to the witness that even as far as October 1992, there
20 was no such thing as a TO Jagodnja and the other one.
21 MR. JONES: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you look at the document, it wasn't -- it
23 didn't even show up on the document itself. That's how I understood your
24 question to be.
25 MR. JONES: Yes. And I'm happy with the answer which was given by
1 the witness, so if that's allowed to stand, I can move on.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MR. JONES: It would be very long for me to have him first confirm
4 that for the first three pages there's no mention of Jagodnja and Joseva;
5 we can see that for ourselves. And he's confirmed that substantively, up
6 to October 1992, they were not in any TO unit.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
8 MR. JONES:
9 Q. Now, if we go to page 3 in English, the second formation
10 structure, this is dealing with the situation from 14 October 1992. See
11 the operation staff -- and my apologies. It's the next page.
12 "On 14 October 1992, following the commander's order, the units
13 were again reorganised as follows," and then we have a list of these
14 various units. And I want to go to page 6 in the English, and it's point
15 6 in B/C/S, page 4 in B/C/S. It says: "Number 6: Independent Biljeg
16 Battalion, based in Biljeg, commander, Ahmo Tihic."
17 Have you found that part?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Now, if we look there, it says: "3rd Company, based in Joseva,
20 commander, Mefail Ridzic."
21 Do you know Mefail Ridzic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When did he come to Joseva?
24 A. I can't remember exactly when Mefail came there. Probably in
25 November 1992.
1 Q. And how long did he remain in the area?
2 A. He stayed there until the fall of Jagodnja and Joseva. He was
3 there. He was coming and going, and a couple of other people from the
4 village of Zanjevo. He was also from Zanjevo. So they were just coming
5 and going. And there was this movement of people in that area where he
6 himself was killed, together with two people in -- between Jagodnja and
7 Joseva. I think it was on the 10th of March. I'm not really sure that it
8 was the 10th.
9 Q. You say a couple of other people from the village of Zanjevo. Was
10 he -- oh, yes, you've said he was from Zanjevo. So he was coming -- going
11 between Zanjevo and Jagodnja and Joseva; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Between Jagodnja and Biljeg. So these people went towards
13 Zanjevo as well to collect food. I think they had links to that area.
14 Q. Now, between November 1992 and March 1993, was he any type of
15 commander in Joseva?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were the fighters in Joseva ever under any sort of command or
18 orders of Mefail Ridzic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was there, right up until the fall of Joseva, any military
21 formation, like a company, a military-formed unit?
22 A. No. It was just a group of armed men who were defending their
24 Q. And was there at the same period any military-formed unit in
25 Biljeg, namely, a battalion, as claimed in this document?
1 A. No. I never heard of the battalion, but I heard about a group of
2 people that was at Biljeg.
3 Q. And up until the fall of Joseva, was Joseva under the command of
5 A. No. We were not under anybody's command. We acted independently
6 and we were defending ourselves independently and did whatever we had to
7 do in that way.
8 Q. Now, after Jagodnja and Joseva fell to the Serbs, did those places
9 remain in Serb hands?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So would it be right that in April 1993, it would have been
12 impossible for Muslim units to be based in Joseva, because that was
13 actually held by the Serbs at that date?
14 A. No. After the fall, in mid-May, between the 10th and the 13th, I
15 think it was when Jagodnja and Joseva fell, and not a single Muslim
16 entered this Jagodnja and Joseva. And it was my father who entered
17 Joseva, because the Serb forces took him in the direction of Zljebac.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. I think it's March
19 and not May.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I was going to point that out. Thank you.
21 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. So as far as the information we've reviewed is concerned, that
23 information is completely wrong, isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. I'll move on to P94. This is -- it seems to be a text
1 file. The title, anyway, is "Srebrenica 73, 1994 Supplement to the ABiH
2 chronicle guide to sector from morale to corps Tuzla."
3 I just want to take you to a couple parts of this document. No
4 page 5 in the English, and in B/C/S page 7, there's reference to the
5 Independent Battalion Biljeg, Territorial Defence Biljeg. Do you see
6 that? Sorry. Page 6. And it's near the bottom "Samostalni bataljon
7 Biljeg i TO Biljeg."
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. I want you to look at the last -- the sentence at the bottom in
10 Bosnian, where you see 1/6/1992. In English, it says: "On 1/6/1992, the
11 Chetnik attack on Joseva and Jagodnja was rejected."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I want to ask you this: On that date, did anyone from Biljeg
14 help reject a Chetnik attack, as it's described?
15 A. There wasn't an attack at Jagodnja and Joseva on the 8th. I don't
16 remember that.
17 Q. Yes. In fact, it's the 1st of June, 1st of June, 1992.
18 A. There was no one who came to assist Jagodnja and Joseva on the
19 1st, and that vehicle didn't go to Zljebac, it went to Jagodnja and
20 Joseva, if that's what you are talking about. I did explain in the course
21 of the attack this vehicle came from the direction of Zljebac, all the way
22 to the centre of Jagodnja and Joseva.
23 Q. All right. So the enemy vehicle was not sabotaged in Zljebac, as
24 this document says?
25 A. No, no.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Thank you. Is this information we've just reviewed correct or
3 A. What information do you mean? You mean the bit that we've just
4 read out now? No, no, it's incorrect.
5 Q. All right. Just a few final matters. After Jagodnja and Joseva
6 fell, did you go to Srebrenica?
7 A. When I crossed over when those civilians left, I went in the
8 direction of Srebrenica, with the injured. There were quite a few of
9 them. And then I did not go back to the area, because I had a great deal
10 to do at Srebrenica on a daily basis. I was dressing the wounds of the
11 injured who had come from Jagodnja and Joseva.
12 Q. Are you aware when you were in Srebrenica that it had been or was
13 being demilitarised by UNPROFOR?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you hear any stories about the manner in which UNPROFOR
16 soldiers were disarming people?
17 A. Yes. There is this story I heard that in the old town up there,
18 that the UNPROFOR was chasing the Muslims who had arms and that a man
19 jumped off a rock and he got hurt and he was taken to hospital because he
20 had head injury. And that it was impossible to carry weapons around
21 Srebrenica, that there was simply no chance of anyone moving anywhere,
22 going anywhere, in whatever direction, bearing arms.
23 Q. Okay. You grew up in Jagodnja. Do you know everyone from there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you say you know everyone from Joseva?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. JONES: I'd ask if the witness could be shown Exhibit P458,
4 Q. And I'm going to direct you just to two pages of this document.
5 The first is -- it's 03593131, and you should see the date. I think it's
6 the 5th of December, 1992. It says [B/C/S spoken].
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you see number 16, Osman Salkic, Joseva?
9 A. Yes, I see the number and there isn't a man under that name at
10 Joseva. This family name does not exist in Joseva, Osman.
11 Q. Thank you. And then if we turn to another page, which is
12 03593140. It should say 11 December 1992, the left-hand side -- sorry.
13 It's also handwritten "17" at the top.
14 A. Could you repeat?
15 Q. Yes. If you have -- it says 03593140. The left-hand page, Petak,
16 11 December 1992. There's another list of names, number 8, Hasan Salkic,
17 in Joseva. Again, do you know anyone by that name from Joseva?
18 A. No. This family name, or that name, actually, don't exist in
20 MR. JONES: And we have a new exhibit I want to pass up. There's
21 no ERN number. And just to explain: This is a census for Joseva. This
22 is a census, and the extract is from Joseva. Yes, the whole population.
23 And, Your Honour, I seek to tender this to demonstrate that in
24 fact the names don't appear in the census of those two individuals. Rather
25 than asking the witness to review the whole document, I would just seek to
1 tender this in evidence. Obviously, it's an exhibit and can be examined
2 upon, if need be, by the Prosecution. But I wouldn't seek to lose time
3 having him pick through each entry.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which consists of -- I counted 32
5 pages. I don't know if anyone else counted with me. Anyway, this
6 document, which consists of 32 pages - please check me out then later,
7 Madam Registrar, please - without an ERN number, consisting of a covering
8 letter from the federal office of statistics of Bosnia and Herzegovina to
9 Defence lead counsel, with a translation thereof, and then a list of the
10 inhabitants of Joseva, is being tendered, received, and marked as Defence
11 Exhibit D840.
12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm very much obliged.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Someone checks me out on the number of pages,
14 because I have -- my fingers are very dry and I am -- I don't quite know
15 whether I managed to count the full 32 of them or ... Okay.
16 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Your Honour, at this stage, I have no further questions. That's
18 obviously subject to this other issue of which you're all aware.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And I am keeping my fingers crossed, Mr.
21 MR. JONES: Well, I know there is some news and there are
22 developments, but I --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean, I [sic] obviously know more
24 than we do. So yes, you may sit down.
25 Mr. Alic -- I think we ought to send Mr. Alic to his room.
1 We need to discuss something before we start the
2 cross-examination, and I don't think you need to be present, because it
3 will only be boring discussion for you on matters that you are not
4 interested in. So what I suggest -- the transcript as Judge Eser rightly
5 points out line 21, I didn't say that "I obviously know more than we do,"
6 but that obviously you know more than we do. But that's not a problem.
7 So we'll call you back within a few minutes, hopefully.
8 In the meantime, he can be entertained to a coffee. Thank you.
9 Madam Usher.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I take it that Mr. Di Fazio is going to
13 address the Chamber, or you, Mr. Wubben. I don't know. I mean, I don't
14 know what the arrangements between you are.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's so. But I just wonder about what
16 you've got in mind for today's proceedings.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What I have in mind is precisely -- I can quite
18 understand why you're saying this, but earlier on, I don't -- I think it
19 was Mr. Wubben pointed out that you will be turning up later on.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: He also informed us that there was not going to be
22 any reference to any case-law.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we were specifically asked whether it would
25 be possible to, in conformity with the desire of the Prosecution, that
1 when Mr. Jones finishes his examination-in-chief, we will not consider it
2 finished at all. We will just stay put, remain in limbo until we hear
3 what you have to say. Then, of course, if he wants to proceed any further
4 with his direct, the understanding would be that he would be able to do
5 so. And then he will be followed by cross-examination by Ms. Sellers.
6 That's the understanding. However, if I am not representing what we have
7 discussed and decided earlier on, please tell me. So now, before we go
8 any further. The timing, no, we'll start with the cross-examination for
10 [Trial Chamber confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, do you agree with what I have said, that
12 that is what we agreed earlier on, basically?
13 MR. JONES: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Wubben agrees too?
15 MR. WUBBEN: That's correct.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So more or less, we will now want to hear what you
17 have to say.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it's just a question of when we do this,
19 that's all.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think now.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I've prepared submissions that I can't finish in
22 two minutes or three minutes; that's my point.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Well, how long are you going to take?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Let me propose this: With a kind of --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Oh, I see. You thought that you were
1 going -- we were going to stop at a quarter to 2.00.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We are going to stop at 2.35. So you've got a
4 full 40 minutes from now.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine. Not a problem.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, I didn't understand you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine, fine, fine.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you were aware of that.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: That explains things and I'm ready to go ahead.
10 Sorry. I didn't understand. I thought we were finishing. Thank you.
11 Your Honours, just some clarifications from yesterday so that the
12 Defence and you know our position. Yesterday I made a submission to you
13 that Annex A, I think it was, one of the annexes, I can't recall precisely
14 which one, did not come --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: B, B.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: B, did not come within the ambit of Rule 68. I
17 will retract that submission. I want to make it clear to you that the
18 Prosecution accepts that it constitutes material that is covered by
19 Rule 68. And further, I said to you yesterday that there had been a
20 breach of Rule 68 in respect of the other -- of one of the documents; that
21 is expanded now and the Prosecution accepts that there has been a breach
22 of Rule 68 in respect of both documents.
23 So the question that you are going to have to automatically be
24 dealing with is a question of prejudice to the Defence, and of course the
25 issue of sanction that they've raised in their motion and, I assume,
1 Rule 68 bis.
2 So that's what I wanted to make quite clear. May I continue?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I just ran out of ink.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. So before I address that issue and we'll
7 call it the general issue of consequences, can I just give you some
8 background material first.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you continue, Mr. Di Fazio, I also got the
10 impression, and I didn't tell you this before, I also got the impression
11 from Mr. Wubben that you are coming back to this courtroom with some
12 additional information on this Slobodan Misic.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's precisely because of that that Mr. Wubben
15 tabled his request that we do not consider the direct closed when
16 Mr. Jones sits down.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. I urged that upon you. You'll
18 understand why when I make -- when I've completed my submissions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, one of the issues that the Defence
21 raised and have made abundantly clear, they take the view that there must
22 be material documentation resulting from an OTP investigation into this
23 fellow, Mr. Slobodan Misic. I can give you the history of our dealings
24 with this issue, and I'll proceed to do that now.
25 On the 8th of December, 1997, a request for assistance was sent to
1 the authorities in the former Yugoslavia requesting an interview with this
2 man. On the 12th of December, 1997, the authorities replied by forwarded
3 to the OTP a document which I'll -- for the sake of simplicity I'll call
4 a -- the Vranje court document. There are copies here; I want to make
5 them available to you. These are being provided this morning to the
6 Defence. And can I ask that I sit down for a moment or two to allow you
7 an opportunity to just quickly go through it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
9 Let's give it a number, an exhibit number. This I haven't got an
10 idea what the next number should be. Madam Registrar. P5 --
11 THE REGISTRAR: P585, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: P585. Yes.
13 And P585 consists of two pages in English, purportedly information
14 released to the Tribunal on the case against Slobodan Misic before the
15 district court in Vranje by the Commission for the Collection of Data on
16 crimes against humanity and international law, with reference
17 02.br.465/97-4 dated 9th December 1997, and signed in Belgrade on the 8th
18 of December, 1997, by Ilija Simic.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Yes.
21 Now, if Your Honours will see, the document is in English, there's
22 no ERN number on it. I obtained this from our -- a unit within the Office
23 of the Prosecutor that deals with requests for assistance. This document,
24 as I understand -- I've already made -- asked inquiries to be made to see
25 if this document appears in our computer database anywhere. That inquiry
1 has been made once and I've been informed that it does not. I'm going to
2 make further inquiries this afternoon or cause further inquiries to be
3 made to make absolutely sure. But as I stand here presently advised, I've
4 got good reason to think that this document does not appear in our
5 computer base with ERN numbers and the usual paraphernalia involving it
6 going through the Evidence Unit, MIF forms, and so on. So therefore, it's
7 not accessible to the trial team through normal search material, normal
8 searches conducted on the computer.
9 The material -- document contains material that is Rule 68, and I
10 concede that, and there's a reference to this man killing two prisoners of
11 war, members of the Muslim armed forces, in Bratunac in 1992; again
12 killing seven prisoners of war, members of the Muslim armed forces in
13 Zanjevo; and again, killing further members of the Muslim armed forces in
14 the village of Fakovici in the end of 1992; and more prisoners of war over
15 the Drina River in Bratunac. So the Prosecution concedes that this
16 document is -- contains material that is Rule 68. It's now been handed
17 over to the Defence.
18 I've also -- the Prosecution has also caused inquiries to be made
19 with other team members, to other teams, not team members, not this
20 Prosecution team, but other teams within the Office of the Prosecutor, to
21 see if there were any other inquiries or investigations into this man that
22 they're aware of, and I have been informed that had they are not aware of
23 any ongoing or any past investigations beyond what I've already told you
24 about in that request for assistance back in late 1997.
25 The matter did not, however, end there. The request for
1 assistance was, as I told you, was for an interview with this fellow,
2 Slobodan Misic. Having gone through the RFA file, I found a document in
3 B/C/S that I have not yet had translated. It also does not have ERN
4 numbers and it also was not accessible to the Defence. Madam Vidovic
5 probably has the document now and would know exactly what it says. But
6 the important point I gleaned from it from having it hurriedly translated
7 this morning, before I came into court, note even a draft translation,
8 just the basic gist of it, is that this was a communication to us, the
9 Office of the Prosecutor, that this fellow, Slobodan Misic, did not want
10 to speak to the OTP. So --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this document dated?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't see anything that -- there's a fax number
13 on it.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's a date on this
16 document, the 12th of December, 1997, where Misic Slobodan declares
17 himself regarding the question of his guilt.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to tender this document?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I don't know what the attitude of the Defence
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I'm not interested for the time being in the
22 attitude of the Defence. I am only interested in knowing exactly what are
23 the documents you have at your disposal. And if it's not in English, I'm
24 going to ask that it be put on the ELMO or that maybe, I don't know, if
25 Madam Vidovic wants to be -- wants to help us, perhaps she could volunteer
1 to read it out and then it is automatically translated to us into English.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will know now, like you do, what it says.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Could it be put on the ELMO?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we could put it on the ELMO.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. And if the interpreters in the booths
7 would be so kind as to interpret it, I would appreciate that.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if they accept to do that. I don't
9 think that the interpreters accept to read from the ELMO and translate.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. Very well. Then perhaps Madam Vidovic
11 could --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would still like to see it on the ELMO, because
13 this is not for our eyes only.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies regarding
15 the date. This is what it says: "The minutes were compiled on the 20th
16 of January, 1998, by the investigating judge, pursuant to a request by the
17 Federal Ministry of Justice, dated the 12th of December, 1997."
18 So the document itself was produced on the 20th of January, 1998.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
21 Now, how are we going to overcome this problem of not knowing --
22 not having a translation and not knowing what this document contains?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I thought that Madam Vidovic was going to --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean, I haven't heard Madam Vidovic
25 say, Yes, I'm going to do that.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Your Honour, I
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to show you my appreciation, Ms. Vidovic, for
4 your cooperation. What I suggest is that you try read as slowly as
5 possible, and the appearance of the document itself on the ELMO would help
6 the interpreters follow you better. They have a copy already. Okay. All
7 right. Thank you. So let's proceed. I would suggest you read the
8 document in its entirety, starting from [B/C/S spoken].
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, above the word
10 "minutes" or "record," there is the code KI number 59/97.
11 "Records or report compiled on the 20th of January, 1998, by the
12 investigating judge of the district court in Vranje in the criminal case
13 against the accused, Slobodan Misic, from Vranje, for war crimes against
14 the civilian population under Article 142, paragraph 1, and war crimes
15 against prisoners of war, under Article 144 of the Criminal Code of
16 Yugoslavia. While the accused pleaded regarding the letter of the Federal
17 Ministry of Justice, 1/1 Number 031/3-1997-04, dated the 12th of December,
18 1997. Present: Investigating Judge Sloboljub Mihajlovic; clerk, Stojan
19 Milenkovic, recording clerk, Stojan Milenkovic; accused, Slobodan Misic;
20 Defence counsel, Dragan Nikolic, attorney-at-law. Commenced at 12.10
22 "The accused, Slobodan Misic, was informed about the request of
23 the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former
24 Yugoslavia sent to the Federal Ministry of Justice, dated the 8th of
25 December, 1997, requesting that the investigators of this Tribunal be
1 allowed to conduct an interview with the accused regarding crimes that he
2 has been charged with.
3 "Furthermore, the accused was informed about the letter of the
4 Federal Ministry of Justice 1/1 Number 031/3-1997, dated the 12th of
5 December, 1997, sent to this investigating judge, requesting that the
6 request be met by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal
7 unless there are any legal obstacles.
8 "So the accused Slobodan Misic stated as follows: 'I have
9 understood the above request of the Prosecutor of the International
10 Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. I hereby state that I do not
11 accept any sort of interview with this Prosecutor, because proceedings are
12 already afoot against me here for crimes that I have been charged with.
13 By the way, I reiterate that I have committed no crime. I was drunk when
14 they took me to the offices of the Vranjski newspaper at Vranje, and I
15 don't know whether they gave me anything to drink there. So I don't know
16 what I told them, nor do I know whether I actually told them what was
17 later printed in the newspapers. One thing I do know is that while
18 volunteering at the front, I killed no civilians or prisoners of war. I
19 have nothing further to state. I recognise the record as accurately
20 reflecting my own statement and hereby sign the statement,'" completed at
21 1230, the accused. You have the signature of the recording clerk on one
22 side of the page, the signature of the investigating judge on the other,
23 and there is the stamp of the district court in Vranje.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic. Yes.
25 And do you wish to address the Trial Chamber further on this
1 document, Mr. Di Fazio?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, only that it illustrates to you why there was
3 no investigation. So the history of what I've told you, that I obtained
4 from the RFA unit, and the two documents that have been tendered,
5 incidentally, if Your Honour pleases, I do seek to tender this, so it will
6 show why there is very little material that the Prosecution -- or this
7 Prosecution team was able to uncover in respect of any such
8 investigation. A, no investigation, and B, these documents stayed in
9 someone else's office and were not ERN'd and not normally accessible to
10 those conducting normal, diligent, responsible searches for
11 documentation. Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I take it from what you've said that the Office
13 of the Prosecutor is not in a position to provide this Trial Chamber with
14 any information as to the outcome of the proceedings that were instituted
15 in Serbia against Slobodan Misic?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: That I can't tell you. I don't know the answer to
17 that question. If Your Honours are interested in that, I can make --
18 cause inquiries to be made and try and get whatever information we have
19 about the outcome of matters in the former Yugoslavia, if you wish.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not a question of the Trial Chamber being
21 interested. What we are interested in knowing is whether, because of the
22 fact that this Mr. Misic decided not to cooperate with the Tribunal, in
23 other words, decided not to release any statements or be interviewed by
24 any officer of the Tribunal, then, consequently, the Tribunal lost -- the
25 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal lost interest in him to the
1 extent that it did not pursue its investigations to the extent of at least
2 following the proceedings that were ongoing against the gentleman in
3 Serbia. This is what I want to know. And otherwise, the Trial Chamber
4 itself is not interested in having -- I mean, we are not a party to this
6 MR. DI FAZIO: My inquiries to date, the ones that I've told you
7 about, the inquiries conducted with other trial teams in the Office of the
8 Prosecutor, all have indicated that there was no further investigation. I
9 will again, as I said, ask for confirmation of what I have been told, and
10 I'll look into that this afternoon. But that's my -- as I stand here,
11 that is how I'm currently advised. That's what the situation is. This
12 brought an end to it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio, for all that
15 Can I have that document, please, the one that Madam Usher put on
16 the ELMO.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: And I thank Madam Vidovic for having read out the
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document that we've just been dealing with,
20 consisting of one page, with reference number Ki.br.59/97.- and having at
21 the top a telephone number and the words "ICTY Belgrade" has been tendered
22 and received and marked as Prosecution Exhibit P586.
23 I don't know, Mr. Jones, if you have -- I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't finished.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I thought you had finished. Sorry.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't finished, if Your Honours please. I
2 intend to make the bulk of my submissions today.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yeah. Then let's -- how long? How much more do
4 you require?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll finish by 2.35. There's no question.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But we have a witness here who is
8 MR. JONES: I'd also like to respond.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course. No, but you will have -- I mean,
10 please, don't for a moment even think that we are going to dispose of this
11 without looking at you and asking you for your -- in fact, I had already
12 tried to do that, not realising that he hadn't finished. But I think
13 we -- you want to wait for a moment, Mr. Di Fazio. Please sit down.
14 Usher, get the witness in again and I'll explain to him why we are
15 sending him back.
16 And do you still think you would be able to finish tomorrow,
17 Ms. Sellers?
18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, yes, I will be able to finish tomorrow.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: What I -- while he's coming, what I rather had in
21 mind, I thought that I was going to -- was going to happen, the suggestion
22 that I had, was that I go as far as I can because there's -- today, and
23 there's more inquiry that I want to make. Now, I'm hoping that that will
24 all be finished by the end of the day, and any more material that I've
25 gathered will be sent to the Defence tonight. So what I was going to
1 suggest is I finish my submissions today --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. We are going to give you all that
3 opportunity. This is it.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And then I can get whatever new material I
5 can to the Defence this afternoon. They will have an opportunity to read
6 it, and then they can make their minds up on whether to pursue anything
7 further with the witness and reply tomorrow. That's what I respectfully
8 suggest might be a good idea.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Alic, good afternoon to you again.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I told you before I sent you back to your room that
14 we had something to discuss, and unfortunately I was wrong. I thought we
15 were going to deal and finish with the issue that we needed to discuss,
16 which does not concern you, in a matter of a few minutes. Unfortunately,
17 it got more complicated than that. We need much more than a few minutes
18 to discuss and decide on this other issue which is beside -- hasn't got to
19 do with you. And I thought it would be better, rather than keeping you
20 waiting and then maybe testifying for five minutes or ten minutes, to send
21 you back to your hotel and so that you can have lunch and rest, and then
22 you will return back tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning, if we are lucky
23 and everything goes well, we should finish with your testimony.
24 So my apologies to you, but at the same time, I think it's better
25 to go back to your hotel rather than stay waiting in a small room here,
1 not knowing if you're going to continue to give evidence today or not.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would be
3 extremely grateful if we were able to finish up tomorrow, because I have a
4 disabled mother back in Bosnia and, therefore, staying away is very
5 difficult for me.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do -- I can assure you that we will do our
7 utmost. And if we don't finish tomorrow --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And if we don't finish tomorrow, we will certainly
10 finish early on Friday. So you can put your mind at rest that you will be
11 back home this weekend.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. So that's the result of
16 our inquiries into the investigation that the Defence raised in its
17 motion, the issue of the Prosecution investigation into this fellow.
18 In addition to that, yesterday the Prosecution asked that
19 electronic searches be conducted of its database for this man, this
20 Slobodan Misic. That was being conducted yesterday by one of the -- one
21 of our team, and last night I asked that it be expanded and that it be
22 sent to the ISU, that's our professional searching department, so to
23 speak, for a far more refined and broader search. And that's under way,
24 and it's being completed. And the material has been produced, and it's
25 not huge. It's not voluminous. And I'll be able to get through it, I
1 hope, with the assistance of one or two of my colleagues, this afternoon,
2 and be in a position to hand on anything that is thrown out over to the
3 Defence regarding this man.
4 So that would then mean that they should have the material tonight
5 and be in a position to know if they want to make any use of it with this
6 particular witness.
7 So they are the inquiries that the Prosecution has undertaken.
8 They're incomplete, as I said, and the main -- the area that needs to be
9 attended to is the actual review of what the computer generated for us.
10 So I want to turn, if I may, briefly, to the issue of prejudice,
11 and there's something that's come up today as a result of what's in P586
12 that I would like to have a closer look at and consider, and I would not
13 like to complete any submissions that I make on the issue of prejudice to
14 you until I've had a chance to consider P586. So can I reserve this -- on
15 this issue until tomorrow?
16 I understand one of the -- I understand that one of either Annex A
17 or C is in evidence, if not both of them. I don't know the exhibit
18 numbers, but I understand that they were tendered yesterday.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. They were tendered today.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Today.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Or one was tendered yesterday, I think, and one was
22 tendered today. That's how it would stand. What was Annex A was tendered
23 yesterday. What is Annex B or C was tendered today.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: So they've both gone into evidence. I know that
25 that is not a complete answer to the issue of prejudice, and I don't
1 pretend that it is, but the fact remains that the evidence is now before
2 the Trial Chamber and the Defence can make whatever use it can, even at
3 this late stage, of the document.
4 So the Prosecution's submission is that their prejudice has been
5 mitigated. The extent to which it's been mitigated is, of course, a
6 matter for you.
7 I know that the -- immediately what Mr. Jones would say, or
8 perhaps you, Your Honours, would say is that it doesn't accommodate -- it
9 doesn't take care of the fact that the Defence were thereby deprived of
10 putting the document to the Prosecution witnesses. I understand that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the whole issue.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it's -- the Prosecution's submission is it's
13 a large part of the issue, but not the whole issue. And I say that it's
14 not the whole issue partly because of the fact that it's now at least in
15 front of the Trial Chamber and something that you -- and that they can
16 make use of. I've not reviewed every Prosecution witness who might have
17 mentioned Fakovici, but I've reviewed what I think are the principal
18 witnesses who come from the area, Prosecution witnesses, that is. All of
19 them testified that -- well, Novka Bozic -- perhaps I shouldn't use names.
20 One of the witnesses testified that she didn't see any VRS in her
21 village, and the basic thrust of her evidence was that the only armed
22 units or military presence in the village were the men in her village and
23 she basically described a village guard. And that's around page 1324,
24 1348 of the transcript.
25 Excuse me.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I won't refer to the witnesses.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's a safer approach.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: A Divovici witness - let's put it that way - you'll
5 find her evidence, that's a lady, at page 1383, parts that I'm referring
6 to, also testified about the presence of a village guard and no military
7 presence. And as far as the other material in the document is concerned,
8 she said that there were no Muslims in Zanjevo who were driven away, and
9 there's reference, I think, in one, either A or C, to that. And also she
10 described the presence of a village guard.
11 Another gentleman, he -- you'll find his evidence at least at page
12 1523, said that there wasn't a single unit - and I understand him to be
13 talking about a VRS -- or military unit I should say, military unit in
14 Fakovici in May of 1992. He agreed with the general proposition that
15 there was SDS arming through a gentleman named Slavko Jovanovic in the
16 Fakovici area. And he denied coordination between the JNA and certain
17 people. I think that's the expression in the transcript, "certain
18 people," from Serbia, page 1524.
19 Another witness who spoke about the matter was a gentleman you'll
20 find parts of his evidence at page 3167. He again -- the thrust of his
21 evidence was village guard, there were stored weapons there. He agreed
22 there were stored weapons in the post office, I think it was, in
23 Fakovici - I think Ms. Richardson talked to that witness - distributed
24 only to locals and, again, Muslims not forced to leave Zanjevo. And all
25 parties participated in the arming of local populations.
1 I don't need to go through it in much more detail. The two
2 insider witnesses, the doctor, you'll recall, and the other gentleman,
3 policeman, who I took in examination-in-chief -- in -- whose evidence I
4 took, didn't, as far as I understand, my view of their evidence, make much
5 or say much about the presence of paramilitaries or types like Slobodan
6 Misic in the Fakovici area or in the broader area.
7 Now, the reason I say that is that I know that you -- I cannot
8 stand here and say to you we know -- we know for sure what they would have
9 said had Defence counsel put those documents to them. But it's not silly
10 to say that they -- it's likely, given the state of their evidence, that
11 they would have denied any such knowledge of any such events and that,
12 therefore, the Prosecution -- sorry, the Defence would be likely to be in
13 a position of having their evidence, but having the document in evidence
14 and being able to make the usual submissions to you that they -- that you
15 would expect from them.
16 So that's something that you may care to consider in the exercise
17 of your discretion. I don't know if the point has appealed to you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at my face, you would know,
19 Mr. Di Fazio.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. But one thing's for sure, that the
21 prejudice must be mitigated to some extent, to some extent at least, by
22 the fact that you've got the document in front of you and the Defence has
23 now access to it and can make whatever use of it it sees fit.
24 So that's what I want to say today about the use of A and C,
25 Annexes A and C. As I said, there's another matter that I may care to
1 raise tomorrow. I'd like to do that after I've looked at Exhibit P586 and
2 considered its impact on the issue of prejudice.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 586.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. Yes, 586 is the one --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. 586. It doesn't seem on the face of
6 the document that the person concerned, Misic, Slobodan Misic, is
7 retracting anything except as regards his alleged killing of several
8 persons. Otherwise he is not retracting anything else. He's only
9 retracting his responsibility for the alleged murders.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, he said --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So he is not retracting that the -- his
12 participation in combat in the region or his being a volunteer, a
13 volunteer from Serbia.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: But it's not all that he said, and there are other
17 matters and I'd like to have a chance --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, and you will have the opportunity.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yesterday -- that's the only matter I make at this
20 stage that I'm likely to come back to you on tomorrow, and that will be
21 very, very brief, if at all.
22 The basic thrust of the submissions made by Mr. Jones yesterday
23 was that there's a systematic failure here, that this is what you're
24 dealing with here, because of our failure to hand over this Rule 68
25 material to the Defence. There was a complaint that by the Prosecution
1 raising the issue of whether or not we would avail ourselves of any
2 argument based on the fact that the documents might or might not be in the
3 public domain evidences an attitude on the part of the Prosecution that it
4 wishes to wriggle out of or not accept its responsibilities to twist and
5 turn, so to speak.
6 Those inquiries that I told you about earlier were under way
7 yesterday, if Your Honours please. There is nothing wrong with the
8 Prosecution availing itself of a proper argument if it's open to it. If,
9 indeed, these documents had been, or if the Prosecution considered that it
10 was in a position to argue with you, to make -- sorry, to make a
11 submission to you that documents are in the public domain and therefore
12 are absolved of any responsibility under Rule 68, then it would have been
13 negligent on our part not to do so.
14 So far from twisting and turning, as the Defence would have you
15 believe, the Prosecution was attempting to deal with the very issues that
16 were concerning the Defence yesterday.
17 If Your Honours please, another matter that you should bear in
18 mind regarding any systematic failure, such -- and of course, to invoke
19 the Rule 68 bis provision that you have, any sanction - is this: On the
20 19th of May last year, we obtained search results from the ISU section or
21 unit, call it what you will, and it -- we had sent various criteria to
22 them to use in order to research what material was available to them on
23 the -- on our database, and they came back with a large swathe of
24 documents. One of the documents was this document, either A or C, I can't
25 recall, the excerpts from the newspaper Odgovor Bumerang. It was
1 described in the spreadsheet that we received as back in May of 2004.
2 Yes. Thank you, it's A. It was described as the excerpts from newspaper
3 Odgovor Bumerang, including interview with Slobodan Misic, aka Top, Serb
4 volunteer, page 4.
5 So the searches that we did, and there were many, many, many more
6 searches than that one, produced the document that is Rule 68. The
7 failure, therefore, must have occurred at some point thereafter. And I
8 don't know what caused the failure. I don't know, and I don't think --
9 well, no one in the team knows if it was caused by someone looking at the
10 document and saying, Well, it's not Rule 68, or whether it wasn't
11 considered at all. Either one is a mistake and it's a bad mistake, and
12 the Prosecution doesn't shrink from that. And I can't tell you which --
13 what happened, because I just don't know. I can't figure out from the
14 material that we have what happened. But the fact is that the system did
15 give us the document. It's human error that's led to this one or two
16 documents that should have been given to the Defence.
17 So if you accept what I've said about the system that the
18 Prosecution has been using, and if you accept the arguments that I've put
19 to you relating to the search that was conducted last year, then what
20 you're dealing with here is the failure of -- the human failure of someone
21 in the trial team at some point either overlooked it or made a bad
22 assessment about the document, that it wasn't discloseable. But the
23 system itself is working, and since last year I think we've had -- this is
24 the second major occasion in which this sort of issue has arisen. You'll
25 recall last year I was standing making submissions about Andjelko Makar,
1 the statement from Andjelko Makar. We deal with hundreds of thousands of
2 documents, if Your Honours please. It's important, I know, that the
3 Defence get this sort of material, but I submit to you that if all
4 indications are that this is an isolated example that doesn't warrant
5 the -- invoking powers under Rule 68 bis and/or exercising discretion to
6 sanction the Prosecution.
7 So that's all I want to say about the matters, if Your Honours
8 please, other than anything I might add to you in relation -- arising from
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, we've only got six minutes. I take it
11 that you would require more than that. I don't know. It's up to you.
12 MR. JONES: Yes. Both my colleague and I want to raise a couple
13 of matters, very important matters, in relation to this documents. I
14 certainly could make a few points now.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can utilise the next six minutes, I think
16 that would be worth its while. But otherwise, if you feel uncomfortable
17 about it and would rather start and continue, then we can start tomorrow.
18 It's up to you. I mean, I'm leaving you the choice.
19 MR. JONES: I think if we can start now and then we can finish
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
22 MR. JONES: My colleague will add a couple of observations at a
23 certain point.
24 Your Honour, firstly, this new document, which has been produced
25 today, in our submission, raises far more questions than it answers.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one are you referring to? 585 or 586?
2 MR. JONES: My apologies. I didn't -- 585, P585. It's a document
3 from the Commission for the Collection of Data on crimes against humanity,
4 international law. It's essentially a summary of information. It's not
5 from the court. It's not from the investigating judge. It's not the
6 dossier. And in this document, it's apparent that actually investigations
7 were carried out to the extent that in fact seven witnesses were heard who
8 were together with Misic at the front in Mladenici and in the region of
9 Fakovici. So here are seven people who spoke to an investigating judge
10 and who were in this area of direct concern to us with Misic.
11 And it reads on: "Their testimonies indicate that Misic was
12 indeed present at both fronts and that he participated in some of the
13 clashes, but not in the mopping-up operations."
14 So already we have corroboration that Misic was there in the area,
15 participating in clashes. These witness statements are obviously also of
16 great interest to us.
17 The testimonies also indicate that he could not have committed the
18 murders he had been talking about, although specific enumerated murders,
19 it's not anything more than that. However, it does go on to say: "It was
20 mentioned during these testimonies that he cut off the head of the corpse
21 of a Muslim and put it on a fence in the vicinity of Fakovici."
22 So in other words, those testimonies actually corroborate one of
23 the atrocities, and that's certainly a war crime as well, defacing a body.
24 So we have a court file, which must exist. We have the statements
25 of seven witnesses. We saw in the other documents, D833, which we
1 exhibited today, that in fact the State Security Service seized tapes of
2 the interview with Misic and Misic's authorised transcript.
3 Now, certainly the Prosecution has a duty to investigate war
4 crimes, certainly war crimes of this gravity, and I submit it's simply
5 extraordinary to suspect that the Prosecution, on receiving information --
6 not information, on hearing from the person who has confessed to these
7 crimes that he was drunk and later attempt to retract it, that that would
8 be sufficient, that that would close the matter, as if any investigating
9 authority in the world would hear a murderer make confessions; and then
10 when he says, Well, I was drunk, I didn't do it, would say, That's all
11 right then, we needn't look into it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's precisely what I pointed out early on.
13 MR. JONES: Yes. Impossible. I submit that if it is true, then
14 it's staggering that that's -- that the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, with
15 its solemn duty to investigate crimes of this seriousness would simply
16 shrug off such gross crimes and not investigate further.
17 Now Moreover, this document is by no way final. It says at the
18 end: "The investigation continues." So it's inconclusive, firstly. And
19 secondly, let's bear in mind with the date, 1997, and this is from
20 Belgrade, that it's well documented, it's a matter of public records from
21 the looks of the annual reports of this Tribunal, certainly at that time,
22 Serbia and Montenegro, Yugoslavia, was well-known for not taking seriously
23 its duty to prosecute crimes of an international concern. In fact, I
24 indeed in fact went with the President of this Tribunal to Belgrade on a
25 trip around this time to try and persuade the authorities to arrest the
1 Vukovar 3 and to take some action because there was a culture of complete
2 impunity in Serbia at that time.
3 So again, if even the court in Serbia had closed the investigation
4 hurriedly, now that certainly should not be something which should have
5 satisfied the Prosecution of this Tribunal that there was nothing in it.
6 In any event, we don't even have that information that the investigation
7 didn't go further.
8 Moreover, it emerges from this that this individual has a criminal
9 record, was a violent personality. It's obviously clearly of relevance
10 that he was in the area with that background, and the fact that he was
11 drinking -- no doubt if we had committed serious crimes, murder of
12 civilians, one might take to the bottle as well. I can't believe that
13 that was in any way considered a reason for not looking further into the
15 And the second document is simply Misic indicating that he didn't
16 want to speak to the Prosecutor. Obviously, I don't see how that would
17 end matters when you have corroborating witness statements and the duty of
18 the Prosecutor to inquire into these matters.
19 And it's also contradictory with P585, because in P585, it's
20 stated that Misic used his right to remain silent, whereas in P586, in
21 fact he's speaking and denying the commission of certain crimes.
22 So again, that's why I say, it raises more questions than it
23 answers, because obviously a lot more has been said. And even in the two
24 exhibits which we -- two documents which we exhibited, one could see that
25 there were two different -- different stories, but a story about snakes,
1 the rather lurid story about snakes, was not in the first document.
2 Clearly Misic did not simply give one interview in which he said a few
3 things. It's been reported in quite a few different journals and
4 different things being reported. So again, I would find it extraordinary
5 if the Prosecutor hadn't looked into this more and if there weren't more
6 material disclosed to us.
7 Now, Your Honours, the point I wanted to make yesterday when the
8 Prosecution was beginning to look into this is that it's standard response
9 that, Well, we've got millions of documents to search through. But here
10 in these documents, we have names of individuals: The spokesperson of
11 this Tribunal, a woman in Belgrade. I won't mention names, so as not to
12 embarrass them. But surely it's a matter of speaking to those people;
13 speaking to the former deputy Prosecutor; speaking to senior trial
14 attorneys; contacting the Helsinki Commission, which had expressed an
15 interest in the case; and the institutional knowledge of the Prosecution
16 which is available and which has to be called upon to
17 find out whether anything was done. And certainly, if those things
18 haven't been done - and then we'll undertake that ourselves. We'll speak
19 to the spokesperson, who is still at this Tribunal, and others, and if
20 there is a lot more out there, then we'll certainly bring that to your
22 Now, the Prosecution's response, their standard response, it
23 seems, in this situation is to say there's no prejudice. It's hard for us
24 to imagine what the Prosecution would consider prejudice. But Your
25 Honours will have seen how, particularly in this case, we've already
1 tendered 830 or something exhibits. And they are carefully interlocked.
2 And you will have seen with Slobodan Misic, we found his name on another
3 list and we can link the name on that list with another document. And
4 there's the enormous prejudice of being a year into the trial and not
5 having had documents which we could have analysed and seen the
6 interconnections and then put to Prosecution witnesses.
7 Now, as far as those witnesses are concerned, we say, and we've
8 always said, that those witnesses, when they speak of village guards and
9 they deny ethnic cleansing by Serbs, are deeply biased. Make no bones
10 about it. That's our characters and that that bias runs through their
11 testimony against our client. Nonetheless, who is to say whether these
12 witnesses are so, in our submission, biased that if presented with a
13 document of this impact, that they might not actually recall some terrible
14 incident mentioned there and say, Well, in fact it's true, I can't deny
15 it, there were terrible things which the Serbs were doing in Zanjevo or
16 wherever. And we could have got through this implacable denial of some of
17 the witnesses with this document, possibly.
18 As for the insiders, the notion that the doctor and the other
19 witness would not have in fact expanded upon the events described in these
20 documents is a matter which Your Honours can judge, but certainly the
21 insider witnesses had plenty to say which was of interest in favour of us,
22 as they did for the Prosecution, as I'm sure you'll recall. And they
23 certainly could have expanded on the information in these documents.
24 So I should perhaps stop there so that my colleague can continue
25 either today or tomorrow. But as I say, the prejudice consists of being
1 deprived of exculpatory material for a year which we could have
2 investigated and analysed. And certainly we say it's considerable and we
3 do say it's a systematic failure as well.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue tomorrow, Mr. Jones. I'm sorry to
5 have to interrupt you here, but I don't want to keep anyone else beyond
6 the time that much further beyond the time that we agreed upon. We will
7 resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in courtroom -- here? In this unfortunate
8 courtroom, yes.
9 Ms. Vidovic, can you postpone until tomorrow?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour. I just
11 want to say two or three things that might make the Prosecutor's work
12 easier. There's something I've noticed concerning these documents,
13 especially the latter, concerns their authenticity.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you discuss it when we stop? At least the
15 recorder doesn't need to continue typing.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not with the Prosecutor.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then we'll continue tomorrow, because,
18 honestly, I will have complaints if I continue with the sitting beyond
19 here. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of
22 October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.