Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12983

1 Wednesday, 26 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good afternoon to you. Could you

7 kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

11 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Oric, and good afternoon to you too.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and also good afternoon

17 to the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution.

18 I'm here together with co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne

19 Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you, Mr. Wubben

21 and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour; good

24 afternoon, my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic. Together with

25 Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Oric. With us are our legal assistant,

Page 12984

1 Ms. Adisa Mehic and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam, and good afternoon to you and

3 your team.

4 Just two small things: Number one is that I have just signed

5 before entering the courtroom an order pursuant to your Defence response

6 to Mr. Nikolic's motion, giving the Prosecution, should you wish to

7 respond to any of the matters raised by the Defence, up to today week,

8 Wednesday, and Mr. Nikolic or his Defence team the same. In other words,

9 I'm giving him - or them - the opportunity to respond by Wednesday.

10 Because even if you leave the matter more or less in our hands, you do

11 raise some issues that I think ought to be addressed, if not by the

12 Prosecution as such, at least by Mr. Nikolic himself, all right? Yes,

13 Mr. Wubben.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honours. We already received the motion

15 filed by Defence yesterday, and indeed we intend to -- at least to do an

16 oral submission or probably a written.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to make an oral submission, you are free

18 to do so, but to be honest with you, Mr. Wubben, although I'm not trying

19 to discourage you, I would rather use the time that we have to make sure

20 that we finish with this witness, rather than -- it's up to you if you

21 want to make an oral --

22 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I didn't mean to do it by today, but in

23 one of the coming days or beginning next week. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. The other thing is we are now in a

25 position to draft the decision on Rule 68. We've finished discussing. So

Page 12985

1 but I haven't started drafting as yet. So it will take me at least until

2 tomorrow to finish the drafting. That's the second thing I wanted to tell

3 you.

4 Right. Yes.

5 MR. WUBBEN: In respect to the latest issue, we would like to do a

6 short, a limited oral submission, and I request Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio to do

7 so, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, by all means. In the meantime,

9 we were informed today that, after all, Prosecution did discover the

10 second page of that newspaper article or report that you copied us

11 yesterday. I take it that you have received it. Yes.

12 Mr. Di Fazio, yes, please.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours; and thank you, the

14 Defence.

15 If Your Honours please, I've got a translation that I can provide

16 to you of the -- which is a translation of the page that Ms. Vidovic had

17 yesterday, and the second page that we have now discovered. And I need to

18 address you because of certain matters, and it may also have an impact on

19 your decision as well. So I think it's best that I address you now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yesterday, Ms. Vidovic said, referring to the part

22 of the newspaper article that she did have - and remember that this

23 article was generated following last week's Rule 68 issue - we went out

24 and did an extra search and we came up with that article. And Ms. Vidovic

25 says: "So from this part you can see that the units of the Red Berets

Page 12986

1 under the command of [this gentleman] were present on the Drina front

2 throughout the war, which we have been proving and which all of the

3 Prosecutor's witnesses that we questioned about the Red Berets denied."

4 That's what's in her transcript. And I think, with respect, she's

5 right. I think that can only be categorised as another Rule 68 sentence

6 in this newspaper article. I'm not trying to shy away from that.

7 So -- and that's why I wanted to raise it with you now. Your

8 Honours then went on to ask me: "Is the entire article in your

9 possession?" And I replied: "That's exactly my point. That's exactly my

10 point." Your Honour said: "If you don't have it, obviously I can't ask

11 you to go and get it." And then I went on to a submission regarding

12 whether or not the Defence accepts what we say to them. The point is I'm

13 concerned that I may have misled you, because in fact we were in

14 possession of it, although yesterday I didn't know that and I didn't

15 believe that we were in possession of that. And so it's important that

16 you understand, A, that it contains Rule 68 material, that sentence.

17 In respect of this newspaper article, I'd like to adopt all of the

18 submissions that I made in respect of the other material, insofar as

19 prejudice is concerned, and I'd like to adopt them. In my submission, the

20 amount of Rule 68 material in this particular article is so minimal and so

21 - how to put it? - it's not particularly usable for cross-examination

22 purposes in the sense that it's so distant from the events; it's third,

23 second, fourth-hand material, obviously. And so therefore, the

24 Prosecution's submission is that on the issue of prejudice, the Defence

25 have not suffered much. Essentially the same submissions that I made to

Page 12987

1 you last week.

2 Now, why was this not generated by the search that we conducted

3 last week following the initial Rule 68 controversy, so to speak? And I

4 raise that only because of the other issue that's concerned, systematic

5 failure or disorder on the part of the Prosecution's case that's leading

6 to this sort of thing.

7 If Your Honours please, and if you look at the documents -- do

8 Your Honours have the B/C/S and the English now?


10 MR. DI FAZIO: Good. Thank you. First of all, the ERN numbers,

11 if you look at the page that the Defence had yesterday, that's the first

12 page of this article, it ends with the ERN number 3320. Right? Then the

13 second page, which is what was disclosed last night, ends with the ERN

14 number 3322. It's not in sequence. We've looked at the computer records

15 that we have, and it's clear that these two sequential pages were entered

16 into the Evidence Unit on the same day, but as different documents. When

17 the search was conducted last week for this man -- on this man, the search

18 was refined as best it could be to Slobodan Misic, Top. If you look at

19 the second page, that's the one ending 22, you've only got Misic, which is

20 a very -- it's a pretty -- if you use that name, it will generate

21 thousands and thousands of documents. So the refined search didn't pick

22 up the second page that was entered separately.

23 Furthermore, the IIF or the MIF that accompanies the entering of

24 these documents into the Evidence Unit did not have any keywords that

25 would have revealed Misic or Slobodan or Top and that's why the second

Page 12988

1 page was not discovered.

2 One would have expected, if the job had been done properly, that

3 the two documents would have been entered as the one range, so they would

4 have had the one range under the one MIF or IIF document and that would

5 have meant that the entire article was put in and rendered -- it would

6 have resulted -- a proper refined search would have come up with the whole

7 thing. So that's the mechanism by which the initial search we did last

8 week didn't come up with this particular document.

9 The second submission that I want to make about it is that if you

10 look at the English translation, if Your Honours please, the article --

11 and it's got all --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. -- Usher, please. Be kind enough to

13 go to the witness and explain to him that we'll be with him pretty soon,

14 that we are discussing something which does not relate to him. Thank you.

15 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Right. It's got -- it's a whole series of

17 articles. If you look at the B/C/S version, you can see that it's two

18 pages, so to speak, with different articles. The big one -- the main

19 article is that one that you can see, headed -- and I asked the

20 translators to put in the B/C/S headline at the top so you can see which

21 particular headline -- which translation relates to which particular

22 article. The Rule 68 material is in the article headed "'Top' was not in

23 the Red Berets."

24 [The witness stands down]

25 MR. DI FAZIO: That page, 3320, if you read the English

Page 12989

1 translation, okay, it ends at about the end -- the end of the second

2 paragraph, beginning of the third paragraph. In fact, you can see the

3 words -- yeah. The English paragraph: "It is obvious that ..." Sorry,

4 third. "It is obvious that Misic would not have met any of those

5 conditions." Do Your Honours have that?


7 MR. DI FAZIO: All of that that follows is on the second page from

8 that point on in the English. He says then that there is -- he was

9 personally in command of actions in the areas of Visegrad, Srebrenica, and

10 Bratunac. Now, that would also constitute Rule -- I suppose Rule 68

11 material. But any prejudice that's been caused in the intervening week is

12 minimal, because the first page has really got the gravamen, the heart of

13 the matter. That's where the real stuff is. That is the "commander of

14 the majority of actions carried out at the Drina battlefield." Do you see

15 that in the first paragraph?

16 So the fact that this other page was disclosed later has not,

17 essentially, worsened the situation any more than it was from last week.

18 And furthermore, the search that the Prosecution conducted following last

19 week's Rule 68 controversy was, in the circumstances, completely

20 reasonable, sensible, and the fact that it didn't produce this second page

21 is the result of a quirk or an anomaly that occurred when the person who

22 entered it into the Evidence Unit put in a second page of a newspaper

23 article as a completely separate document; and furthermore, nothing in the

24 IIF would have come up on the search material.

25 So I just wanted to add that, those comments to you, so that you

Page 12990

1 -- in case you need to adopt or use any of this material for purposes of

2 your decision.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in a position to tell us what was ERN number

4 3321?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I've seen it. It's another B/C/S series of

6 -- it's a page, a B/C/S page, with a number of articles that don't deal

7 with this, so I'm told from our B/C/S interpreter. It's not a

8 continuation, as far as I can understand, of the first page, 3320, and

9 then you have 33 -- 3321 is not a continuation of this 3320, as I

10 understand it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't, of course, force the Prosecution to show us

12 a document.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm willing to do that, Your Honours. And if the

14 Defence want --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I was careful in the words that I chose.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If the Defence wants that page, we'll hand it over.

17 It's not a problem at all. We'll just disclose it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

19 Ms. Vidovic or Mr. Jones, whichever of you, do you wish to address

20 this matter any further?

21 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, no, not in any depth. We wouldn't

22 propose a point-by-point rebuttal of the points made by Mr. Di Fazio just

23 now. We adopt certainly our submissions on prejudice and systematic

24 failure for all the documents so far which have been in discussion. We

25 say this document, it speaks for itself in terms of its exculpatory

Page 12991

1 nature.

2 In terms of prejudice, we would just say this: That we did put to

3 Prosecution witnesses that there were Red Berets and each one of them

4 denied it. We would have had, if this had been disclosed in due timely

5 fashion, we would have had this document and we would have had the

6 information which is contained about Red Berets and about the names of

7 commanders of the Red Berets, et cetera, to put to those witnesses. So

8 generally, as with the other documents, we've been deprived of the

9 opportunity of making effective cross-examination using documents rather

10 than simply putting propositions without being able to back them up.

11 And I'd finally just say this on institutional failure on the part

12 of the Prosecution: That the Prosecution's approach seems to be that --

13 to this issue, that it's simply a matter of searches, of putting in terms

14 into a big search engine. The fact is the Prosecution is a body which has

15 institutional knowledge and must be presumed to have a certain amount of

16 institutional knowledge. It has a Prosecutor at its head, it has senior

17 trial attorneys, investigators, analysts, and certainly, in our

18 submission, many of those persons in the Office of the Prosecutor will

19 have relevant institutional knowledge about the Misic case, and also on

20 other exculpatory issues. Certainly we would imagine they can be

21 consulted. Obviously, I don't teach the Prosecution their job or presume

22 about how they conduct their affairs. But it seems always to be a case of

23 putting in search terms and then the explanation that there are these huge

24 archives. Well, the fact is it is an Office of the Prosecutor headed by a

25 person, with people working there, and those people, I presume, are also

Page 12992












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12993

1 being consulted on the Slobodan Misic case, because it's a case, it's not

2 just a search term. It's a case, and there are leads which could have

3 been followed up concerning the witness statements which were taken in

4 Serbia in relation to that case.

5 But apart from that, we simply stand by the submissions which

6 we've already made.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. And I hope next time we'll

8 speak on this will be in our decision, of course, but I hope you realise,

9 both of you, and particularly the Prosecution, why we have and still do

10 take this matter extremely seriously. We have a responsibility to make

11 sure that you meet with your obligations and that the rights of the

12 Defence are fully respected. But over and above that, we also have a

13 responsibility to ensure and maintain the integrity of the cases that we

14 are dealing with. And my concern - and when I say "mine," I'm not

15 speaking for myself only; I'm speaking for Judge Eser and Judge

16 Brydensholt, in the most open manner - is that even the events pertaining

17 to this singular incident itself reveals one very important aspect: That

18 we started from one step and we ended up a few steps higher, resulting in

19 the disclosure of fresh documents. In other words, we ended up -- the

20 situation where initially there was only one document, not having been

21 disclosed, and ending up with having more documents, or discovering more

22 documents not having been disclosed. And again, between yesterday and

23 today, a second page pertaining to a document that now has been -- has

24 come to the surface. Of course, no one attributes, and I don't think even

25 the Defence has attributed bad faith to you. I mean, I don't think I've

Page 12994

1 heard any suggestion that you have acted maliciously. But on the other

2 hand, please, Mr. Wubben, Mr. Di Fazio, I cannot impress enough because I

3 do not find the right words here and now and I want to start with the

4 witness, I cannot impress enough with you the importance of thoroughly

5 searching, again and again and again, as the case goes by, the fresh,

6 incoming documents. And when I say thoroughly, I mean thoroughly. I know

7 you have four million documents-plus, but it's your responsibility, and no

8 one is going to do the work for you. And if you don't, and at the end of

9 the day, when the cooking process has come to an end, you discover that

10 you have forgotten to put in one or more fundamental ingredients, you will

11 end up with something that you will not like. Some things you can

12 replace. If you have forgotten to put salt, you can put it later; if you

13 have forgotten to put spices, maybe you can give it a little bit of

14 reheating and add spices; or if you have forgotten pepper, you can add

15 pepper. But if you have forgotten the basic ingredients, at that point,

16 what you have is not edible, or if it is eaten, it will not be as good as

17 it would be. And I think I have made myself understood.

18 Anyway, tomorrow or the day after we'll come down with our

19 decision, but in the meantime, please do understand that the question of

20 Rule 68 disclosure does not begin and end during the pre-trial stage; it

21 continues throughout, and periodically, as documents move from one section

22 of this Tribunal to another, you need to update and make sure that

23 everything is disclosed. Because we can come up to a stage where it is

24 too late to address any major damage or prejudice that could be caused.

25 So let's bring the witness, please, and I thank you for your

Page 12995

1 cooperation on this.

2 We'll have the same schedule as yesterday, Madam Vidovic, so we

3 stop at 4.00 and then we continue at half 4.00.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we ready? Yes, Mr. Ademovic. Good afternoon to

6 you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to have kept you waiting, but it was a matter

9 that we needed to discuss which does not involve you and that we needed to

10 conclude the exchange of submissions on it, and it had to be done today.

11 Good afternoon, once more. I hope you have had a good rest and

12 that you are fresh enough to continue with your examination-in-chief. I'm

13 just going to remind you that you are testifying under oath, or in terms

14 of the solemn declaration that you entered yesterday. We are not going to

15 repeat it. It's still applicable.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand

17 everything. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Vidovic.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ademovic.

23 A. Good afternoon to you and to all present.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

25 show the witness two documents together; document 04381963 and document

Page 12996

1 04381966, because these documents are connected. And finally, I will ask

2 a single exhibit number for both documents.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll start with that. This will become D845, 845.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me describe the documents, since it is two

7 documents in one, please, Madam Vidovic.

8 All right. This document which is being tendered as one document

9 by the Defence and marked as D845 consists of the following: The first

10 part of this document is in B/C/S is -- consists of two pages with ERN

11 04381963 to 964, followed by three pages in B/C/S with ERN number 04381966

12 to 968. Each one of these texts is accompanied by the corresponding

13 translation into English.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only wish to

16 establish whether the witness is receiving interpretation.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Because we are now getting it on

19 channel 3 instead of 6, as it appears to me.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I was just about to

21 intervene and say I had no interpretation.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please just change the

23 channel, or I don't know how we're going to regulate this, but there's no

24 Bosnian interpretation on channel 6.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we have to establish.

Page 12997

1 Now, Mr. Ademovic, are you receiving interpretation now?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. On which --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, now I am, yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: On which -- on channel 6. So basically I will

6 repeat two things to you. First, what I told you yesterday: If at any

7 time there is a problem with the interpretation, draw my attention

8 immediately, because I am not in a position to know that. I mean, I'm

9 only listening in English on channel 4. I'm not following in Serbo-Croat

10 as well, and I can't do that. So if that happens again, please tell me

11 straight away, all right? That's number one.

12 Number two, we haven't asked you any questions. I was just

13 describing this document for record purposes, and this document is being

14 entered as Defence Exhibit D845.

15 Do you want me to give him more information than that? I don't

16 think so.

17 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, Your Honour. Just one matter. I just can't

19 quite understand why it's getting the one exhibit number. I've got the

20 English translations. They appear to be separate documents. I wondered

21 if the Defence wanted to give them separate numbers. One appears to be

22 command of the East Bosnia Corps, 6th of July, and the other one appears

23 to be analysis of combat activities report. And I -- unless there's going

24 to be evidence that they're all attached and part of the one document --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, Mr. Di Fazio. I can't answer that

Page 12998

1 question. I had a specific request from the Defence to have them entered

2 as one document, so I didn't argue, of course, with the Defence. Maybe

3 they deal with the same incident or -- the question is -- the request to

4 have them entered as one document came before the questions, so usually I

5 would intervene after having heard the questions.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I accept that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If it's the case of having them entered

8 separately, I will tell you, Ms. Vidovic. I mean, I will not hesitate in

9 doing that. For the time being, we'll have them as one document. Go

10 ahead.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. It will

12 soon become clear.

13 Q. Witness, please look first at document 04381963.

14 A. Yes, I've seen it.

15 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the East Bosnia Corps,

16 under strictly confidential number 11/2-933, and it's dated the 6th of

17 July, 1992. The title is "Analysis of combat activities, hereby submitted

18 to the commands of all units."

19 I will quote only paragraph 1, which says: "On the 13th of July,

20 1992, starting at 0800 hours, an analysis of combat activities for the

21 previous 30 days will be held at the corps command. Commands of brigades

22 and other independent units will attend the analysis, as will the corps

23 command bodies."

24 Witness, please pay attention to the number of this document in

25 the heading. It says "11/2-933." Do you agree that this part of the

Page 12999

1 document speaks of the preparation of a meeting at which combat activities

2 will be analysed?

3 A. Yes. That's what the document shows.

4 Q. Now please look at this other document, and it bears the number

5 04381966, and the title is "Analysis of combat activities report." And I

6 will quote the beginning of this document. Have you found it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "Pursuant to your document strictly confidential number 11/2-933,

9 dated the 6th of July, 1992, we hereby submit to you the following report:

10 "1. The most frequent form of combat activities in the previous

11 time period. From the beginning of combat activities in the area of

12 responsibility of the Birac Brigade, we conducted combat activities while

13 surrounded, simultaneously with coordinated activities with aviation,

14 organised attacks and a breakthrough from the surrounding area. We

15 conducted these combat activities supported by aviation and our own

16 artillery."

17 In connection with this part of the document, I wish to ask you

18 the following: Can you confirm that the document number 11/2-933, dated

19 the 6th of July, 1992, is the same number contained in the heading of the

20 command concerning the analysis of combat activities, which you have just

21 seen and which was delivered to the commands of all units?

22 A. Yes. These are the same numbers.

23 Q. And in connection with this, I will ask you as follows: Did you

24 know that in the area where you were, in Susnjari and its general area,

25 the Birac Brigade was operating?

Page 13000

1 A. Yes. My area, the area of Susnjari, belongs to the Birac area.

2 Q. And how did you receive this information?

3 A. I had this information through my Motorola, where I listened in to

4 their conversations.

5 Q. You mentioned this Motorola yesterday. I would now like to dwell

6 on it a little bit. Could you tell Their Honours what kind of Motorola

7 this was and what its range was.

8 A. It was a small hand-held Motorola. Its range was four to five

9 kilometres, as the crow flies. And if there are no hills around, then it

10 has a range of four to five kilometres. However, if there are any

11 physical obstacles, then the range is somewhat less.

12 Q. Can you tell Their Honours for what purposes you used it as a

13 policeman before the war?

14 A. For local contacts in town, to get information from my colleagues

15 or the police station.

16 Q. Thank you. You said that the range of this small Motorola was

17 four to five kilometres. Was the Serb army within that range?

18 A. If we look at the map, Ravni Buljim, point 820, and Rogac, as the

19 crow flies, the distance is four to five kilometres. Jezestica, from

20 Lupoglava, my position at Jaglici, the distance is about two or two and a

21 half kilometres, and to Siljkovici it's about two kilometres. To the

22 centre of Kravica, it's about four kilometres.

23 Q. Is this, then, how you got information about the Birac Brigade and

24 its combined activities with artillery and aviation?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13001

1 Q. Now, please turn to page 2 of this document, document 04381967.

2 That's the end of this page, under number 6, reads as follows: "Within

3 the area of responsibility of the brigade, there are currently three

4 groups of volunteers who have agreed to fight under the joint command.

5 These are mostly men with war experience from Croatia. They have been

6 used to occupy certain elevations and for combat in populated areas."

7 My question to you, in connection with this, is: In July 1992,

8 did you have any experiences with these volunteers which you said you knew

9 were fighting in this area? I mean you personally.

10 A. Yes. In the Buljim area, from the direction of Jezestica and from

11 the direction of Lipenovici because the territory of Buljim is elevated,

12 and this is wild, broken countryside.

13 Q. Did you have any information about some of them being killed

14 there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember any of them?

17 A. Yes. More than once, we clashed with them, when refugees went

18 from the direction of Susnjari towards Konjevic Polje, on the 29th of

19 June, one of them was killed at Hajducko Groblje. And then on the 6th of

20 August -- on the 6th of August, and previously, before that, there had

21 been fighting. I remember one of them was from Nis, another one was from

22 Sabac. On the 29th of June, we confiscated an M-53 from him and --

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And another question in connection with

24 this: To the best of your knowledge, were they under the command of the

25 local Serb army?

Page 13002












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13003

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In these clashes with Serbs in the Jezestica area, did you get

3 hold of any weapons?

4 A. Yes. As I said, on the 29th of June, we took an M-53 and a combat

5 kit with ammunition. We also took some light infantry weapons from them,

6 also certain parts of uniforms, and there were times when we would get

7 seven or eight rifles, whether PAP or automatic rifles, from them, because

8 they would throw them away when they were wounded and so on.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, because these two

10 documents are mutually connected, that was why I asked for them to be

11 given a single number.

12 Now you can put these documents aside, Mr. Ademovic, and I would

13 like to ask the usher to show the witness another document.

14 Q. This is document -- a document issued by the Birac SAO, Bratunac

15 municipality, garrison command of the 1st of July 1992, and the title is

16 "Bringing up to manpower levels the combat units of Bratunac

17 municipality." The document number is 04361487.

18 And the first page of this document -- Witness, if you have

19 received the document, please turn to page 2 right away. Page 2 is

20 numbered 04361485, and it says: "Code-name overview, strength of units on

21 26th of June, 1992."

22 And Witness, please look at the lower part of the document.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I want to make sure, Ms. Vidovic, and

24 in this way I'm addressing the witness directly, that in looking at this

25 page 2 that is ending with ERN 1485, since most of it is handwritten and a

Page 13004

1 copy that I have, at least, leaves much to be desired. It's none of your

2 fault, but you can barely read what's written there. I want to make sure

3 that the witness is in a position to read it, in other words, to

4 distinguish the letters there. If he's not, I would suggest that we put

5 the original on the ELMO and then we zoom in the parts that you want the

6 witness to address, and we see whether that will make it better for him.

7 Because as it is, for example, if you ask me whether I'm reading the first

8 eight, I can barely distinguish the letters.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. For the first

10 eight, that is true. However, the one that is relevant to us is quite

11 legible, at least my copy is. I don't know about the witness's. Because

12 I'm interested in number 10 onwards.

13 Q. Witness, can you read what is stated there under number 10 and

14 onwards, and if you can read the columns there?

15 A. I believe I can, and if I have some doubts, I will let you know.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we could

17 place the document on the ELMO. I don't see any reason why not.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... Madam Usher, if

19 you put the -- and could the technicians please focus on the last 15

20 entries and zoom in, if at all possible. Zoom in where the names are

21 first, and then, if necessary, we'll move to the right -- to the left, all

22 right? That should make it better for you, Mr. Ademovic. If you look at

23 the monitor instead of the paper, you should see better. All right?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... question, Madam

Page 13005

1 Vidovic. I hope I have helped you in this way. I didn't mean to

2 interrupt you, I meant to help.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Could you please scroll the paper -- the document down in order

5 for us to see the headings of the columns. So we would like to see the

6 upper part of the document. Thank you very much. Perhaps if you could

7 move it to the left. Thank you.

8 Q. Witness, do you see that there, under the title "Overview,

9 strength of units," it says here officers, junior officers, soldiers,

10 total. Then there is AP, then PAP. Do you see these columns? Do you see

11 the columns where it says "AP" and "PAP," where it is written "men,

12 officers, junior officers, soldiers"?

13 A. Yes, I do see it now. I apologise. I could not see it on the

14 screen before that.

15 Q. Very well. I will quote parts of the document for you. If we

16 could look at the bottom part of the document now, please, if the usher

17 could assist us, where it says: "The Bratunac unit of the Serbian army."

18 And if you could look at number 10. Do you agree with me that it is

19 indicated here KDA TO?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That is to say, TO Command. Please look at number 11. Do you

22 agree with me that it is stated here "the TO detachment number 1"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please focus on the most relevant part now, under number 13, TO

25 Detachment Kravica. Do you see that?

Page 13006

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the line below, the Drina Detachment. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In connection with this, I want to ask you the following: On the

5 26th of June, 1992, did you know about the existence of the Drina

6 Detachment?

7 A. Yes, and I've already stated so. On the basis of the information

8 provided to me by the refugees who fled from the area of Drina in the

9 direction of Zvornik. Their centre of activity was in the area of

10 Slapasnica. I apologise. This is the detachment that operated along the

11 Drina River, around Ljubovija, in the direction of Zvornik.

12 Q. Thank you. In your earlier testimony, on several occasions you

13 mentioned Kravica and stated that people there were armed and

14 well-equipped. Did you know that at the end of June 1992, they had a TO

15 detachment in Kravica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Please look at number 13, where it is stated "Kravica" and then

18 the columns "men," "soldiers," "total."

19 A. Could you please move it. Can we see the bottom part?

20 Q. Under "total," it is stated 430. In late June 1992, did you know

21 how many soldiers there were in the area of Kravica?

22 A. Yes. We knew that the areas of Kravica, Jezestica, and Sekovici

23 had hundreds of them, the area in the direction of Rogac.

24 Q. Did you know that they had automatic weapons?

25 A. Yes, we did.

Page 13007

1 Q. Please look at the column where it is stated "infantry weapons,

2 AP-80." What does "AP-80" stand for, to your knowledge?

3 A. Automatic rifle.

4 Q. Meaning?

5 A. Yes, it means that we had 80 automatic rifles.

6 Q. Look at PAP-287. Can you tell us what this stands for?

7 A. Semi-automatic rifle. Therefore, they had 277 [as interpreted]

8 semi-automatic rifles.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that something

10 else is entered into the transcript. My question was: How many automatic

11 weapons were there in Kravica? And the witness answered that they had 80

12 automatic weapons. The way it is entered into the transcript, it seems as

13 if we had 80 automatic weapons.

14 Q. Can you tell us, Witness, please, who had 80 automatic rifles that

15 are indicated in this document?

16 A. The Kravica TO Detachment. I said that the Serbs, who were part

17 of the Kravica unit, had these weapons.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This served to correct the

20 transcript.

21 Q. Now, as for the rifle 7.9 millimetres-141, what does that stand

22 for?

23 A. As far as I know, and according to what is stated here, these are

24 M-48 rifles of long and longer range.

25 Q. According to this document, how many are indicated here?

Page 13008

1 A. As far as I can see, 141.

2 Q. Very well. Next, there is SNP-6. Do you know what the "SNP"

3 abbreviation stands for?

4 A. Sniper.

5 Q. Does it, therefore, follow from this document that this particular

6 detachment had six snipers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then it says "PM-16."

9 A. These are light machine-guns.

10 Q. According to this document, would then this mean that they had 16

11 light machine-guns?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you please decipher the following row. Please take a look

14 at it, the one following the heading "PM." Would you please take a look

15 at the column. Can you decipher the one next to the one with the heading

16 "PM"?

17 A. As far as I can see, it says "TMS" or "TRS" and "APC."

18 Q. Very well, and can you see how many APCs are indicated here?

19 A. Two.

20 Q. Thank you. Very well. The next column has the heading "MB."

21 What does that stand for?

22 A. That's the military term for mortar.

23 Q. According to this document, how many mortars did they have?

24 A. Four.

25 Q. Please, can you tell us whether Jezestica is a hamlet of Kravica?

Page 13009

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In connection with the document you have just been shown, I have a

3 question to ask of you. According to this document, the inhabitants of

4 Kravica had some 500 rifles, including automatic weapons; they had light

5 machine-guns and mortars.

6 Can you tell us the following: Does this document reflect the

7 actual situation in the Kravica area in terms of weaponry, in light of

8 your experience connected with the attacks from the Kravica area?

9 A. Yes. They were very well organised, equipped, and coordinated

10 with the other Serbian forces.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the question and the answer

13 that has now been given indicates that the inhabitants of I think Kravica

14 -- I can't see that in the document. I thought it was a TO that we were

15 talking about. I wonder if it could be indicated where it says that the

16 inhabitants had these documents. Thanks -- these weapons.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with you. It calls for an explanation,

18 Madam Vidovic. Because if you look at the second page, that is ERN 1485,

19 under number 13, it says "TO Kravica." I don't know if the first one is

20 [B/C/S spoken]. I don't know what that is. CD or -- I don't know.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to thank my

22 learned colleague from the OTP, but I never mentioned the population of

23 Kravica. I mentioned the Kravica area. I asked whether Jezestica was

24 part of the Kravica area, and according to this document, whether the

25 Kravica area had these weapons. I never mentioned the population itself.

Page 13010

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, I thank you for your explanation,

2 which I do not doubt in the least, especially since you have Mr. Jones

3 sitting next to you. But Mr. Jones can also confirm that the transcript

4 doesn't tell you that, and I'm not saying that you are wrong. Line 15,

5 please. According to this document -- this is your question: "According

6 to this document, the inhabitants of Kravica had some 500 rifles,

7 including ..." et cetera, et cetera. So that's what the transcript says.

8 I want to make sure that when -- I want to make sure that there was no

9 misunderstanding between you and the witness. We're not talking of the

10 inhabitants of Kravica as having 500 of these different kinds of weapons.

11 We're talking of the TO of Kravica. So basically the question that you

12 need to answer is whether, basing yourself on your own personal knowledge

13 of the events at the time, you can confirm or you can agree with Madam

14 Vidovic's suggestion to you that the TO in Kravica had at its disposal

15 something like 500 automatic weapons, or these kind of weapons.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Territorial Defence of

17 Kravica had these particular quantities. That's what I was referring to,

18 to the Territorial Defence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Okay. I thank you. That's clear enough,

20 Madam Vidovic. Let's move ahead. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio, for raising

21 that matter.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You understood me as discussing the TO Kravica?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. Thank you. If someone were to claim, even at the time when this

Page 13011

1 document was drafted on the 26th of June, 1992, that in Kravica and its

2 hamlets of Jezestica, Siljkovici, Colakovici, Mandici, Popovici, and so

3 on, these inhabitants only had village guards, would that be true? I

4 mentioned the inhabitants now.

5 A. No. Quite the contrary, because the village guards are something

6 completely different. They consist of smaller, disorganised groups that

7 are not coordinated with others. They are not well equipped. And they

8 possibly have some sports or hunting weapons. Whereas here we clearly

9 deal with a well-organised, well-equipped, well-coordinated units, both

10 locally and in the general area, which form part of the system, and I

11 repeat: The system.

12 Q. In June and July of 1992, did you perceive these to be village

13 guards? You were out in the field.

14 A. No. They were well organised and they were part of the Serbian

15 army. In all the segments of the military doctrine.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could Your Honours please -- this

18 document be assigned a number?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. This document, which consists

20 in the original B/C/S language, of three pages, with ERN 04361484 to 486,

21 plus then the corresponding translation into English, which for you --

22 reasons of tabulation, consists of six pages, is being tendered and marked

23 as Defence Exhibit D846.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you noticed that four mortars were indicated as

Page 13012












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13013

1 existing in the Kravica area on the 26th of June, 1992, according to this

2 document. Do you know where these weapons were deployed?

3 A. Yes. I knew their precise location. One of them was in Stara

4 Jezestica. I can even tell you under which tree it stood. It was a

5 walnut tree. Another one was in the Kajici area, about one kilometre away

6 from the Bratunac-Kravica main road. The third one was in the Cirkovici

7 area, and the fourth one was on the bus station plateau in the centre of

8 Kravica -- or rather, the fourth one.

9 Q. Can we only enter into the transcript that the third one was, as

10 the witness said, was in Siljkovici, not in Cirkovici. S-i-l-j-o-k --

11 i-c.

12 To your knowledge, what was the target of these artillery weapons?

13 A. They attacked at Cizmici, Bljeceva, Glogova, and the wider area of

14 Pobrdze.

15 Q. Thank you. Apart from these artillery weapons, were there other

16 artillery weapons that you knew of and which also acted -- fired upon your

17 area?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Can you tell us which ones?

20 A. These were weapons of larger calibres, in the Brezik area, brigade

21 and corps artillery of various calibres, on the Rogac plateau.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

23 witness another document.

24 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the 4th MAP, of the

25 10th of October, 1993, and it concerns background information for the

Page 13014

1 celebration of the forming of the Drina Corps, and the number is 04342994.

2 Mr. Ademovic, first of all, do you know what "MAP" stands for?

3 A. Mixed artillery regiment.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, for the record, just because I don't

5 know whether you said the 4th or the 5th, but on the transcript, in the

6 transcript, it says 4th MAP, while the document says 5th MAP. I just

7 wanted to correct that. You can proceed, Ms. Vidovic.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Would there be a pause between question and

9 answer, interpreters note. The speakers frequently overlap.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. "The 5th MAP was formed on the same day, the 26th of January, 1993,

12 when the Drina Corps was established by order of the main staff of the

13 Army of Republika Srpska. The basis for forming the regiment was a mixed

14 artillery group which had in turn grown from 122-millimetre self-propelled

15 gun battery. On the 24th of June, 1992, this battery, its men and

16 equipment, was relocated from Sarajevo to Milici, whereupon it was

17 immediately included in combat operations."

18 Please turn to the next page. Under number 4: "Following its

19 redeployment from Sarajevo to Milici on the 24th of June, 1992, the SH

20 battery was immediately thrown into battle and contributed to the defence

21 of the bauxite mine from the Turkish forces. No subsequent operation took

22 place without a crucial role being played by this artillery unit. It was

23 mainly engaged on the forward front line from which it engaged targets

24 directly."

25 Mr. Ademovic, yesterday you mentioned that your areas were

Page 13015

1 targeted by artillery from Milici. Is it or is it not correct that all

2 infantry attacks on your area were supported by artillery, including

3 artillery from Milici?

4 A. Yes. I think that I have already mentioned this more than once.

5 In early June, even when there was no infantry activity in our area of

6 Susnjari, Pobrdze, long-range artillery was still firing, and now I see

7 what it was.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we have an exhibit

10 number for this document?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. This document, which consists

12 of two pages in B/C/S, with ERN number 04342994 to 2995, and the

13 corresponding translation into English on two pages, is being entered and

14 marked as Defence Exhibit D847.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Would the usher please

16 show the witness D760.

17 Q. This is document 04382030. The document is issued by the East

18 Bosnia Corps Command, dated the 28th of July, 1992, and addressed to all

19 units. The title is "Order, active firing." I will now quote the

20 document to you: "I hereby order all units shall set ambushes on a daily

21 basis, infiltrate the rear of the enemy, infiltrate sabotage groups, with

22 a view to discovering the disposition, inflicting losses, and the cutting

23 off particular roads along which the enemy moves. In regular reports,

24 report on the above tasks. And finally, all units in their areas are to

25 cut off all routes used by the enemy."

Page 13016

1 In connection with this, I will ask you the following,

2 Mr. Ademovic: Does this order reflect what was actually happening in late

3 July and early August 1992 in your area?

4 A. Yes, fully.

5 Q. And who attempted to move around in the Ravni Buljim area?

6 A. The road running through Ravni Buljim was the only corridor

7 through the rugged terrain used by the unfortunate refugees, whose numbers

8 grew daily and who were attempting to reach Konjevic Polje. With these

9 ambushes, the last exit open to these desperate people was closed, and I

10 experienced this in my own area.

11 If I may only add -- I do apologise: These desperate people, in

12 their thousands, were shelled in the fields by this artillery from Rogac

13 and other areas.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Sorry. I just want to be sure that I'm

17 following this evidence, if Your Honours please. I'm not objecting to

18 anything. But D760, I understand -- the document was presented to this

19 witness --


21 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and asked if, you know, it reflects the

22 situation, yes, the answer was yes, and then the question was: "Who

23 attempted to move around in the Ravni Buljim area?" I'm not following

24 something here on this document. I can't see anything about Ravni Buljim.

25 If -- I'm sure that Madam Vidovic wasn't making any leading questions or

Page 13017

1 suggesting any answers there, so I wonder if the document has been

2 finished or if there is a connection between D760 and Ravni Buljim, then

3 you should know about it. Otherwise, how would you evaluate this

4 evidence? Does Your Honour understand?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I understand you.

6 Yes, Ms. Vidovic. I think there is an explanation for it,

7 basically. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we mentioned

9 the Ravni Buljim area at least five times. It's the only area through

10 which the refugees moved on their way to Konjevic Polje. The witness

11 explained that this was the only exit available to them. So I can't go

12 back and repeat all of yesterday's testimony. If one was following what

13 the witness was saying yesterday, then this document and what the witness

14 said is quite clear.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. As I understand it, Mr. Di Fazio -- I don't

16 know, maybe this will help close this matter. As I understand it, what

17 Madam Vidovic is trying to find out from the witness, seek from the

18 witness, is a confirmation that as a result of these ambushes, the only

19 way out, only route available for these refugees to reach Konjevic Polje

20 -- safely Konjevic Polje was being blocked or being made -- this is what

21 -- how I understand it. If I am not understanding you well, please

22 correct me straight away. I don't know. But that's how I have understood

23 it.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: No problem with that, and I heard the evidence

25 yesterday and I understood. You remember, the witness drew a little map

Page 13018

1 and did the circle.


3 MR. DI FAZIO: What I fail to see is the connection between this

4 document and that evidence yesterday, and that's what I'm asking about.

5 The evidence is coming forth to you in a manner such that D760 is somehow

6 connected to this route in that area. Now, how and why?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it seems to be -- and again, I am not

8 offering evidence, I'm just trying to explain to you why I did not

9 encounter the same problem that you seem to have. Basically, if you look

10 at D760, it does say that: "Different groups should infiltrate, or with

11 the aim of discovering the schedule of the enemy, to cause losses to the

12 enemy and to block some roads where the enemy is moving." Before, it

13 says: "All units will set ambushes every day and infiltrate the rear of

14 the enemy." So -- and the document ends up with: "All units should block

15 in their areas all the roads where the enemy is moving."

16 This seems to presume that when they speak of enemy, enemy could

17 include refugees. I mean, basically we're talking of enemy being the

18 Muslims.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: We may be.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, it may be. It may also be [indiscernible].

21 But you have to concede that enemy here is used on very generic terms.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: But that's not really the point.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but it seems to be to all units. So all units

25 would include also the units that were operative in that area. That's the

Page 13019

1 way -- that's why I didn't stop this series of questions.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: As I said, I've got no objection. The witness can

3 be asked about the area that he's talking about at length and give all

4 sorts of answers. That's not objectionable. And the issue of whether the

5 enemy consists of civilians and/or fighters or a combination or it's got

6 some other meaning, that's not, with respect, Your Honour, not the issue

7 either. The issue is only this: How do we know, how will you eventually

8 know when you come back to read this evidence that D760 concerns an area

9 called Ravni whatever it was and not Osmace or not Suceska or not Kravica

10 or not Fakovici or some other area. That's all I'm concerned about.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. Because at the very

12 top of the document you have an indication that this document comes from

13 the command of the East Bosnian Corps, and it is addressed to the -- all

14 the units, to the command of all the units. So if you have any doubt as

15 to whether this area fell under the jurisdiction or operative jurisdiction

16 of the East Bosnian Corps, of course, you are right. But if you don't

17 have a reason to doubt that, I mean, it's difficult to envisage how this

18 document does not cover that area too.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I certainly accept that

20 it covers this area, but what I can't understand is how it doesn't cover

21 other areas. However, in the interests of time, I won't pursue this

22 matter any further and I'll deal with it in cross-examination. Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Vidovic, please forget this and move

24 to your next question, because we need to move. I think we are moving

25 very slowly.

Page 13020

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the Prosecutor needs

2 to clarify certain points, he can do so in the cross-examination. He's

3 taking up a lot of time in this way. I was about to move on in connection

4 with this document.

5 Q. Mr. Ademovic, please, you understood my question, and in

6 connection with that, I will now ask you the following: Yesterday you

7 mentioned the village of Brosevici. What happened in the village of

8 Brosevici in this period?

9 A. According to the document, and according to what I experienced in

10 the field, what is reflected here is the implementation on the ground. On

11 the 28th of July, the village of Brosevici was attacked, the people

12 expelled, the houses burnt or torched, part of the inhabitants and

13 refugees arrived in my area of Susnjari, Jaglici and Brezova Njiva, and

14 another part went in the direction of -- Hovici [phoen] --

15 THE INTERPRETER: And two other villages the interpreter did not

16 hear.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. It says here: "All units in their areas are to cut off all the

19 roads used by the enemy in late July." What did this mean for you, and

20 did this actually happen in your area?

21 A. Yes. What you just said refers to closing the last exit open from

22 the Susnjari region, through the Buljim area, towards Kravica, or rather,

23 towards Konjevic Polje. It was now definitely closed. And we were

24 completely surrounded.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. Judge Eser would like to

Page 13021

1 put a question.

2 JUDGE ESER: Just for the matter of clarification: Could you

3 please circumscribe what you think was the territory of the East Bosnian

4 Corps. Which territory belonged to the command of the East Bosnian Corps?

5 Could you please describe it on the map.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness will have

7 problems because the East Bosnia Corps covers East Bosnia. We have only a

8 small part of it on the map.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. In fact, that is what I'm telling Judge

10 Eser, that it's probably much -- it goes much beyond what we have on this

11 map, because that is only part of East Bosnia.

12 So as I understand it, Judge Eser, I mean, I am not an expert on

13 these matters, but the East -- when we speak of the command of the East

14 Bosnia Corps, we're talking of an area which is a vast area, which

15 comprises the totality of East Bosnia. That's how I understood -- I

16 understand it.

17 JUDGE ESER: But if this is true, then it's really the problem

18 that the command is comprising a very large area, and the document we are

19 dealing with doesn't refer to any place. Now, the problem is: How can we

20 -- how can the witness know that the places, the villages which he

21 mentioned, are exactly those which are referred to in this document? I

22 hope you understood my question. If --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood your question, but

24 I had my Motorola, and I listened in to their communications. I mentioned

25 that their relay equipment had been set up. It was a whole system on the

Page 13022












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13023

1 Rogac plateau, not just one relay station, and I was able to see it with

2 the naked eye. I can indicate it to you on the map. Elevation 820, Ravni

3 Buljim, where I was, and Rogac face each other, and they're about three

4 and a half to four kilometres apart as the crow flies. And you can see

5 the antenna with the naked eye, because they are large objects which are

6 easily visible. So I listened in on my Motorola and I understood every

7 detail of what is under discussion here. Because I knew well who belonged

8 to whom and who was subordinate to whom.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says here quite

10 clearly that the document is addressed to all units.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something? Excuse me,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's close -- are you satisfied, Judge Eser?

14 Yes. Then we move to the next question, please, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

16 Could I have the usher's assistance and show D75, a Defence

17 exhibit. D75.

18 Q. This is the directive of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska

19 army for further operations, number 3, signed by the commander of the

20 Republika Srpska army, General Ratko Mladic. It was drafted on the 3rd of

21 August, 1992, and bears the number 00876215 up until 6227.

22 Witness, could you please turn to page 2. In the Bosnian version

23 there is one virtually empty page and then there is page number 2.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English

25 version, that is page 3.

Page 13024

1 Q. Or rather, could you please turn to the next page in the B/C/S

2 version. It might be page 3, where it is stated: "I have decided ..."

3 A. Page 3, under 4.

4 Q. That's correct. It says: "Operation objectives." And it is

5 somewhere in the middle that it says: "Crush Ustasha forces in the area

6 of Birac and the general area and crush the forces in the areas of Birac,

7 Visegrad, Gorazde, Trnovo and the wider area of Foca and secure land

8 communications with Herzegovina from Eastern and Central Bosnia."

9 And then, under 5 -- turn to the next page, where it says: "Unit

10 tasks." And then turn to page 5, where it says: "East Bosnia Corps.

11 Secure the area along the right bank of the Sava River, and the forces in

12 coordination with the 1st Krajina Corps should liberate Majevica,

13 Semberija, and Birac, from the Ustasha forces."

14 Please then look at paragraph 2, the last sentence in the second

15 paragraph, where it says: "In the Birac area, disarm or crush the

16 remaining Ustasha forces."

17 Can you find that?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph, the number of the paragraph?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise. Which

20 page is that?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 5, paragraph 53.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to lower -- yes, that's it. All right.

24 Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13025

1 Q. I was quoting as follows: "With part of forces, secure the

2 territory along the right bank of the Sava River and with the main forces,

3 in coordination with the 1st Krajina Corps, liberate Majevica, Semberija,

4 and Birac from the Ustasha forces."

5 My question to you is the following: The Serbs, when they said

6 "Ustasha forces," who did they mean by "Ustasha forces"?

7 A. They meant the Croats.

8 Q. And the Muslims, how did they call them?

9 A. Turks or balijas.

10 Q. And the Ustashas?

11 A. By "Ustashas," they meant the Croatian side. Sometimes they'd

12 call them balijas, Turks, and Ustashas.

13 Q. You mean Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Look at page 5, the end of paragraph 53, where it is stated: "In

16 the area of Birac, disarm or crush the remaining Ustasha forces."

17 In the area of Birac, were there any Croats?

18 A. No, not at all.

19 Q. Who inhabited the area of Birac?

20 A. Muslims and Serbs.

21 Q. What do you think, to who does this part of the order refer, where

22 it says "disarm or crush remaining Ustasha forces"?

23 A. I believe that it refers to the Muslims.

24 Q. In connection with this directive by General Ratko Mladic, this

25 directive issued by the Main Staff of Republika Srpska, did its

Page 13026

1 implementation begin in early August 1993, in the area where you were?

2 A. Yes. I've already stated, in connection with the earlier

3 document, that it reflected the situation as it existed in my area, with

4 the destruction of the Brosevici village. This particular document

5 indicates that the intensity of the planning and implementation of these

6 operations continues.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please make one correction

8 to the transcript. My question to you was whether the directive of the

9 Main Staff of Republika Srpska, the one issued by General Ratko Mladic,

10 did its implementation begin in August 1992?

11 Q. Is that how you understood my question?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Because it was erroneously entered into the transcript as 1993.

14 A. I said early August 1992, but in my area, I experienced the same

15 thing a couple of days earlier, which showed what our expectations could

16 be.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please describe the atmosphere prevailing in

18 the areas of Susnjari, Jaglici, and Brezova Njiva in early August 1992.

19 What were things like there?

20 A. One cannot describe it in words. I don't know if I can make

21 myself understood.

22 Q. Could you please answer my question, because of the time

23 constraints. The events happening in the general area of Eastern Bosnia,

24 could they have something to do with this directive, to your knowledge,

25 whether there were such events, and did they affect your area?

Page 13027

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. Could you please explain.

3 A. Very intense attacks commenced, both with artillery and infantry

4 forces. Refugees coming from different directions started arriving in

5 Susnjari, creating an atmosphere of chaos and fear.

6 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where the refugees were

7 coming from in early August 1993, when they were coming to your area.

8 A. In June and July, the intensity from Vlasenica and Rogatica was

9 somewhat weaker. However, from Zepa, Rogatica, and Gorazde, people

10 started coming into our area. There were many of them. There was hunger,

11 panic.

12 Q. Did I understand you clearly when you said that there were

13 refugees from Zepa, Gorazde, started arriving in your area in early

14 August?

15 A. Yes. There were some smaller groups arriving earlier, whereas

16 others arrived in columns and in larger numbers.

17 Q. Were you able to accommodate all these refugees in your area?

18 A. No. They wanted to go either to Konjevic Polje, and therefore go

19 across the area of Budim. They slept in forests, in sheds. And whoever

20 found a shed was lucky. However, they were hungry, exhausted, and ill.

21 Q. Do you remember, did some of them move on to Konjevic Polje?

22 A. Yes. One could not keep these multitudes of desperate people

23 under control.

24 Q. Did you try to prevent them from going to Konjevic Polje?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13028

1 Q. Could you please describe for the Trial Chamber one such instance

2 of people on the move, going somewhere.

3 A. In this time period, as far as I can remember, on the second or

4 third, fourth, fifth, sixth -- or rather, all of these months, and

5 especially -- therefore, from February, and especially in August, more

6 than 5.000 desperate refugees from all areas of Bosnia; Gorazde, Visegrad,

7 Zepa, Han Pijesak, Bratunac, Vlasenica, all of them flocked to our area

8 and decided to move on to Konjevic Polje.

9 Q. Could you please pause.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Although the witness was quite

11 clear, it was entered into the transcript in a manner that does not make

12 it clear.

13 Q. Are you talking about the period of the 1st of August up to some

14 period in August of 1992?

15 A. Yes. From the 1st to the 6th of August, 1992. I believe I made

16 myself clear.

17 Q. Could you please focus on the following and describe for the Trial

18 Chamber one such event involving a column of people.

19 A. If -- I will be able to describe it fully if I will be able to

20 make myself do it. I will try.

21 On the 6th of August, in the early morning hours, this multitude

22 of desperate people decided to move on to Konjevic Polje across the

23 mountain of Buljim and Ravna Gora, and they had to get past Hajducko

24 Groblje, along the forward defence line of the Serb army, Hajducko

25 Groblje, Siljkovici, they had to go along the eastern side, in the

Page 13029

1 direction of north, and then on the other side, Bratunovici. That's an

2 area of some 200 to 300 metres as the crow flies, but the refugees had to

3 pass this stretch of land in the vicinity of the positions of the Serbian

4 army.

5 If we know that they were ambushed by groups of 10 to 15 people in

6 different areas, then you know how difficult it must have been for them.

7 And several thousand people headed on that day across Buljim, in the

8 direction of Konjevic Polje. Despite the warnings and in spite of the

9 fact that they knew what could happen to them, especially because a column

10 of 1.000 to 1.500 people is quite visible, not just from up close but from

11 afar, despite all of that, they headed out in the direction of Konjevic

12 Polje.

13 The column was a large one. There were women, children, and

14 elderly there. As they arrived at Hajducko Groblje, they came under

15 intense artillery fire.

16 Q. Could you please tell us, Mr. Ademovic, where you were, and did

17 you see that personally?

18 A. I was at such a vantage point that it was impossible for me not to

19 see 1.500 people, and I was at Rupovici [phoen], which is an area

20 overlooking the general region. And I was some 1.000 metres, at most,

21 away, maybe some 700 to 800 metres, as the crow flies. And I had my

22 binoculars. I could observe what was going on.

23 Q. What was going on?

24 A. After the column came under intense artillery fire from the

25 direction of Jezestica and Siljkovici, the artillery placed on Brzak also

Page 13030

1 joined in. I could hear moans and some parts of the columns were

2 massacred.

3 Having seen what was going on, I set out with 15 of my men to help

4 these poor people. As I reached the notorious Hajducko Groblje, which is

5 the largest grave ever, I saw a terrible scene, but pulled myself together

6 and opened fire upon the Serb forces, together with some of my 15 to 20

7 men.

8 The area that divided me from the Serbian forces was about 100

9 metres. It was a clearing, and I could not advance any further. It was

10 in this particular area that I witnessed such atrocious scenes that one

11 would not wish upon one's greatest enemy. Dozens of dead, dozens of

12 wounded. There was one thing that I found fascinating, and that was that

13 in this nightmare of the wounded and dead, there was this old lady who

14 survived the first onslaught, who got up on her feet and near to her I saw

15 two boys who were some 8 to 10 years old. And I saw a Serbian soldier

16 fire from a Zolja directly into the old lady, who was simply blown apart.

17 She disappeared.

18 After that, they opened infantry fire on the two boys, on the two

19 children that I saw there. They were simply ripped apart with the bullets

20 that were fired at them. It was then that I decided to come closer, along

21 the left side, to come closer to the Serbian army. At that point, I

22 wasn't thinking about getting killed. Together with my men, I intensified

23 our fire. However, probably because we were short -- because they were

24 short of ammunition and they didn't know how many of us there were, they

25 retreated.

Page 13031

1 Then I grabbed hold of an M-53 and some other infantry weapons.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ademovic. What were the consequences of this

3 attack?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's finish this, because we need a break now.

5 Yes, answer the question, please. What were the consequences of

6 this attack? Very briefly, please.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Just tell us the numbers.

9 A. Between 40 and 50 killed, and as for the number of wounded, I

10 don't remember it. There were both serious and light injuries. We pulled

11 out the men who were with me and the refugees who joined us.

12 Q. How many civilians were there?

13 A. In the column, they were all civilians.

14 Q. But how many civilians were killed or wounded?

15 A. Between 40 and 50 were killed. Killed. But as for the number of

16 injured or wounded, it was over a hundred, as far as I can recall.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll stop here. We'll take a break

19 now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. Incidentally, because

21 otherwise I would tend to forget: The document that you handed to us

22 earlier on in the sitting, Mr. Di Fazio, regarding page 1 and now page 2,

23 I think we ought to give it an exhibit number, and that will become

24 Prosecution Exhibit P --

25 THE REGISTRAR: P589, Your Honour.

Page 13032












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13033

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 589. All right.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll reconvene in 30 minutes' time from now.

4 That's 5 minutes after half past 4.00, 4.35.

5 --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.42 p.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Ms. Vidovic.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Ademovic, we were talking about the 6th of August, 1992, and

11 you explained and described the consequences of the attack on the

12 civilians on the 6th of August, 1992. Did the Serb attacks on your area

13 cease on the 6th of August, 1992? But before you respond to my question,

14 we are making very slow progress and I kindly ask you to give us very

15 concise answers. My question to you was whether the attacks ceased on the

16 6th of August, 1992.

17 A. No. Quite the contrary; they intensified.

18 Q. Can you please tell us precisely what was attacked?

19 A. Region of Susnjari, Brezova Njiva, Glogova, Jaglici, and Konjevic

20 Polje. I apologise. All the way across Potocari, with long-range

21 artillery.

22 Q. Can you tell us: Do you remember what happened on the 8th of

23 August, 1992, if anything happened at all?

24 A. Yes. On the 8th of August, 1992 was my second birthday. During

25 the night, and in the morning, the enemy artillery fire intensified from

Page 13034

1 all directions; from Rogac, Kravica, Brezik, Jezestica, Lipenovici,

2 Kajici. In the early morning hours, an infantry attack was launched on

3 Jaglici, Brezova Njiva, Susnjari, in my area, and followed by that, then

4 fire was opened from all different weapons, so that the ground itself was

5 on fire.

6 Q. Did you find out what the objective of these attacks was?

7 A. Well, it wasn't hard to find out that the objective was to seize

8 the area of Lupoglav, Ravni Buljim, Susnjari, what was my area, and

9 thereby to seize control of the entire region.

10 Q. Very well. You described the artillery attacks for us, as far as

11 I understood. Were there any infantry attacks on that day?

12 A. Yes. From all the directions; from Lipenovici, Jezestica,

13 Djermani, Veresinje, all the way in the direction of Bukova Glava, or

14 rather, across Bukova Glava, and --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned another name of the

16 locality. The interpreter didn't catch it.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you tell us, up to what point did the Serbian artillery come?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because there is one locality missing in

20 the transcript. Lipenovici, Jezestica, Djermani, Bukova Glava, and which

21 other place did you mention?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Veresinje.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the direction of Cizmici.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13035

1 Q. Up to what point did the Serbian army come in the area of Susnjari

2 and Jaglici?

3 A. In the area of Lupoglav, I believe they came within 200 metres of

4 Lupoglav, and I'm talking about the infantry forces.

5 Q. Very well. Did you have the impression that something was going

6 on in the vicinity of your area? Did you hear about something happening?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was it?

9 A. Sometime after noon, I heard that there was fierce fighting in the

10 Veresinje plateau, in Cizmici, Bukova Glava, Hajducko Groblje, and Ravna

11 Gora, from the direction of Siljkovici and Jezestica.

12 Q. And how did you find that out?

13 A. I repeat that I had my Motorola on me. And I listened in to the

14 Serbian side mentioning Veresinje, because they were panic-stricken.

15 There was an attack from Cizmici and Golici.

16 Q. Where were you situated at the time?

17 A. At Lupoglav, the highest elevation point from which I could hear,

18 listen in to all that was going on.

19 Q. What did you notice and observe in the area of Lupoglav in the

20 course of the 8th of August, 1992?

21 A. From my vantage point, I could see the Jezestica plateau and two

22 columns of smoke rising from two different localities.

23 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what Stara Jezestica

24 is, what sort of a locality that is. Perhaps you could use the map that

25 we referred to yesterday.

Page 13036

1 A. Yes, I can explain. In front of me there is Djermani, to the

2 north, and then there is Stara Jezestica, and this is an area that falls

3 under Kravica.

4 Q. Have I understood you well: There is an old part of Jezestica and

5 a new part?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where is Stara Jezestica situated, the old part?

8 A. Between Djermani and Nova Jezestica, or rather Kajici.

9 Q. Is that on the hill or in the valley?

10 A. On the hill.

11 Q. You have described the course of the attack which lasted the

12 entire morning, and I meant the attack against your area.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was there a lull in the fighting at a certain point; and if so,

15 why?

16 A. Yes. Around noon, the infantry fire subsided in my area.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ademovic, please allow a short interval of time

18 between question and answer, because I can feel that the interpreters are

19 finding it difficult to catch up with you, or keep with the pace, anyway.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I think that this was not entered into the record: Why do you

22 think that there was a lull in the fighting, or rather, did you have any

23 information to the effect that the attack against your area subsided? And

24 of course, please try to break -- to make a pause before answering.

25 A. Yes. I was listening in over my Motorola, and I realised that the

Page 13037

1 Serbian side was asking for reinforcements in the area of Veresinje and

2 that the Golici's boys in the area of Cizmici had pushed back the Serbian

3 forces, which were panic-stricken and urgently asking for assistance.

4 Q. At some point you said that you noticed two columns of smoke

5 rising in Donja Jezestica. Can you please describe this for the Trial

6 Chamber.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where were these columns of smoke precisely?

9 A. At Gornja Jezestica, at one end of the village, and the other --

10 or rather, two columns of smoke appeared on each side of the village,

11 which was something that I was not familiar with.

12 Q. Can you please tell us what happened next. Did something happen

13 next?

14 A. Yes. From the direction of Kravica and Bratunac, I could see a

15 stretch of the road there, and I noticed several lorries arriving to

16 assist the forces there. Once the smoke appeared, an intense artillery

17 fire was opened from the area of Brezovik upon Stara Jezestica, upon the

18 houses there.

19 Q. You stated that you noticed several lorries arriving as part of

20 assistance. In assistance to whom?

21 A. The Serbian side.

22 Q. What did you notice next? What happened after the artillery

23 attack targeting houses, as you stated?

24 A. One could see the smoke first, and then the fire.

25 Q. You were familiar with the area of Stara Jezestica. You stated so

Page 13038

1 yesterday several times. The houses there in Stara Jezestica, they were

2 built of what sort of material?

3 A. Wood, adobe bricks, and there were several older houses there, but

4 they were mostly made of wood.

5 Q. "Cerpic" in B/C/S is not really a type of a brick, is it? Can you

6 tell the Trial Chamber what it is.

7 A. It is basically soil which has not been in a kiln, has not been

8 really baked, but I believe that people familiar with these materials

9 would know what it is.

10 Q. Very well. During the day did you find out exactly what was

11 happening and who was fighting in the area of Jezestica?

12 A. Shortly after the artillery opened fire, I thought that the

13 Muslims had entered the area and that the artillery was there to push them

14 out of the area. I also thought that the assistance that I saw arriving

15 was meant for that area and for the area of Veresinje.

16 Q. After the attack, did anybody come to your village?

17 A. In the afternoon hours, when the fighting subsided, I saw men

18 arriving wearing uniforms that I saw for the first time. There were

19 several of them.

20 Q. Did you know these people?

21 A. Yes. It was because we knew each other that Safet Hodzic, from

22 Hranca, came to me.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Again, no objection, just an issue of clarification

Page 13039

1 in order to follow the evidence. The witness said: "Shortly after the

2 artillery opened fire ..."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. "I thought that the Muslims had entered the

4 area and that the artillery was there to push them out of the area. I

5 also thought that the assistance that I saw arriving was meant for that

6 area and for the area of Veresinje."

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. I meant the next line. Question: "After

8 the attack, did anybody come to your village?" Answer: "In the

9 afternoon, when the fighting subsided."

10 The witness has given extensive evidence about Stara Jezestica and

11 Donja and Gornja Jezestica and other villages in the area. Are we to

12 understand that to be a reference to generalised fighting in the whole

13 area or in a specific village? Perhaps, for example, Jezestica or part of

14 it. It's not insignificant.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you, and it will be more practical to

16 deal with it now rather than you take it up on cross-examination.

17 So if you could address this question to the witness directly.

18 Or you have heard what Mr. Di Fazio has said. Perhaps you can

19 enlighten us on this, what you mean exactly, which area you have in mind.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant Jezestica, Stara Jezestica,

21 and Djermani.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move, Ms. Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let us clarify the following: You meant Stara Jezestica and

25 Djermani, but what exactly did you have in mind, that the fighting

Page 13040

1 subsided over there or that the fighting subsided in your area?

2 A. No. That the fighting subsided in my area, whereas the fighting

3 was still going on in Veresinje and in the direction of Cizmici. Do I

4 need to explain any further?

5 Q. Well, I have put a question to you, and please listen closely to

6 the questions I put to you.

7 The fighting that you have described as having subsided in your

8 area, for how long did they still go on in the area of Veresinje and

9 Jezestica?

10 A. Until the late afternoon, evening hours.

11 Q. You mentioned these men as having arrived in these uniforms. When

12 exactly did they come to your area?

13 A. In the afternoon, between 3.00 and 4.00 p.m.

14 Q. Very well. You were going to tell us something about Hodzic

15 Safet, hailing from Hranca. Was there somebody else in that group with

16 him?

17 A. Yes. Safet is a relative of mine. There was Hakija Malic, from

18 Donja Potocari with him there, and another friend of mine of a long time,

19 Dzemo Tihic, from Skelani, the brother of Ahmo Tihic, if that name means

20 something to you.

21 Q. Very well. Tell us: Who were these men? Apart from the fact

22 that you knew them from before the war, were they members of a structure

23 at the time?

24 A. These were men who arrived in the area of Konjevic Polje as

25 members of the 16th Muslim Brigade from Tuzla, under the command of Nurif

Page 13041

1 Rizvanovic, as they told me.

2 Q. Did they tell you this that very day when you saw them?

3 A. Yes, because I asked them where they were from.

4 Q. Did you know Nurif Rizvanovic from before?

5 A. Yes, I knew him well from before the war. He was a military man.

6 He was quite a controversial figure. But I -- everything that I knew

7 about him then was from before the war, from the workplace where I was.

8 Q. Did you talk with Hodzic Safet and Dzemo Tihic and Rizvanovic

9 about the entire events on the 8th of August 1992, and what did they tell

10 you?

11 A. They told me that in early August they arrived in the Konjevic

12 Polje area and that on that day they were in the area of Lolici and the

13 nearby village of Kamenica, and that through their communication devices

14 that they had, they had heard that the Serbian side wanted to seize the

15 area of Jaglici and Susnjari, Lupoglav, and Ravni Buljim.

16 Q. Did they mention Siljkovici in connection with that?

17 A. Yes, they did. In the area of Siljkovici, the Serb forces had

18 very strong positions, they having heard what was going on, decided to

19 start moving. There were about 400 of them, I believe. One group set out

20 in the direction of Siljkovici, another group in the direction of

21 Jezestica and Djermani.

22 Q. Very well. Did you have any information about the activities of

23 Ejub Golic's group?

24 A. No. I heard over my Motorola that Golic's men were attacking.

25 That's something that I was able to hear on the channels used by the Serb

Page 13042












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13043

1 forces.

2 Q. Apart from Ejub Golic's group and Nurif's unit, were you aware of

3 some other Muslim groups participating in the fighting around Jezestica?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was there a group from Pale, led by Senad Golubovic, fighting

6 there as well?

7 A. No. I hear about this for the first time now.

8 Q. In these clashes, did the groups from Suceska take part as well,

9 according to what you know about it?

10 A. No. This was physically impossible.

11 Q. Why?

12 A. Because of the terrain where we were and because of the distance.

13 Q. To the best of your knowledge and according to what Nurif

14 Rizvanovic's men, who arrived, said to you, did they have any losses in

15 the fighting of that day? Nurif's men, I mean.

16 A. Yes. According to what they said, and I later was able to see

17 this for myself, some of the men who went to Siljkovici had quite a lot of

18 losses, and they were not successful. Because the Serbs were very well

19 fortified there, they quickly received help from Kravica. The group that

20 went in the direction of Jezestica and Djermani also had losses because

21 they clashed with the Serb side in the Hajducko Groblje area, where,

22 according to what they said, and you could see that they were more

23 numerous and better equipped, they pushed the Serb side back through

24 Djermani and entered Stara Jezestica.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 13044

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

2 Exhibit D647. This is a list of military conscripts sent to the free

3 territory on the 27th July 1992, as part of the 16th Muslim Brigade.

4 Q. Can you look at page 7. Count the pages, please. It begins with

5 number 17.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on page 9 in

7 English.

8 Q. And if you have found it, look at the name under number 41. Do

9 you see this? The page begins with the number 17. And then under 41,

10 Safet Hodzic, son of Vejsil, from Hranca. Do you see it?

11 A. I apologise, but this is a double list that I have here.

12 Q. Page 7, the seventh page. Have you seen it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Number 41, Safet Hodzic, son of Vejsil. Have you found it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is this the person who you said arrived in Susnjari?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please turn another three pages, and on page 10 it

19 begins with number 1. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Look at number 12, Rifeta -- Hakija Malic, son of Rifeta from

22 Potocari. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that the person whom you said arrived in Susnjari on that day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13045

1 Q. Now, please look at page 13 in the Bosnian version, the name

2 before the last.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And Your Honours, may I draw your

4 attention to the fact that this is page 17 in English, and there is an

5 error in translation here. That's why I would like the usher to put it on

6 the ELMO. The name is Dzemo Tihic, son of Mujo, whereas in English it

7 says that this is Bedrija Tihic, son of Dzemo. An error has crept in

8 here.

9 Q. Can you see this, Witness?

10 A. Yes. It's written in pen.

11 Q. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which number is it, Madam Vidovic?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's -- well, it's the name before

14 the last. I think it's number 22, Your Honours. It says here "Tihic, son

15 of Mujo, Dzemo."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't be, in fact, so it has to be another page.

17 Can you -- this last page you had on the ELMO, please.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the English

19 translation, it's under number 1 on page 17.

20 Q. This is -- the number, it says here Bedrija Tihic, son of Dzemo.

21 This is quite wrong. That's why I'm asking you to look at the Bosnian

22 original. The name before the last, at the bottom, Tihic, Dzemo, son of

23 Mujo. Is that the person who came to your area on that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is this the person who you said was Ahmo Tihic's brother?

Page 13046

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Now please keep this document.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And would the usher now show the

4 witness D801.


6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. These are photographs of members of the 16th Muslim Brigade.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher show the witness

9 photograph 2 of 3. Can this be put on the ELMO, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better to put it on the ELMO. Correct.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this be made a bit clearer?

12 Q. First of all, do you recognise the people on this photograph? If

13 it can be focussed a bit better. It's very blurred on the ELMO.

14 Witness, do you see it?

15 A. As I know these people well, I can recognise them. But for Their

16 Honours and for your sake ...

17 Q. Can you tell us: Who is on this photograph? You said you

18 recognised them.

19 A. Yes. To the left of me is Safet Hodzic, and to my right is Huso

20 Rizvanovic, the brother of Mr. Rizvanovic.

21 Q. Who -- or rather, did any of these two people arrive in Susnjari?

22 A. Yes. Safet Hodzic.

23 Q. Please look at these other two photographs. But before we move

24 on, tell us: Did you discuss with Hodzic the whereabouts of Nurif

25 Rizvanovic and his brother?

Page 13047

1 A. Yes. I asked him where Nurif Rizvanovic was, and he told me that

2 he had gone with his brother to Cizmici.

3 Q. Thank you. Now please look at these other photographs that we

4 have here.

5 Can you show the witness the other photographs, please.

6 Just take a look and I'll ask you to comment on the uniforms and

7 the caps. And I want to ask you: The people you just mentioned as having

8 arrived in Susnjari, were they wearing the kind of uniforms and caps we

9 see in these photographs?

10 A. Yes. That was the first time we had encountered such uniforms and

11 such insignia.

12 Q. Did they have this crescent moon and star?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. From your experience with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did

15 the regular Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina wear such insignia, or rather,

16 did you see such insignia, either in your area or elsewhere?

17 A. This was the first time we had seen such insignia.

18 Q. Thank you. When you spoke to these men, let's say Hodzic, did you

19 discuss the whereabouts of their command? What did they tell you?

20 A. Yes. They said they had arrived with Nurif Rizvanovic, that he

21 was their commander, and that they had come from Tuzla, and that their

22 command was in Tuzla.

23 Q. Please, from what you learned on that day, did they, in early

24 August 1992 -- were they under the command from someone from Konjevic

25 Polje or someone in Srebrenica?

Page 13048

1 A. Neither Konjevic Polje nor Srebrenica. Their commander Nurif was

2 from Tuzla.

3 Q. Thank you. And what did they say was the reason of their arrival

4 in the area?

5 A. To help their people, because most of the people from Podrinje or

6 from Bratunac and Srebrenica -- or rather, most of them came from Podrinje

7 or from Bratunac and Srebrenica.

8 Q. You can put away these photographs now. You mentioned that among

9 the group that arrived in Susnjari was also Dzemo Tihic. Did I understand

10 you correctly to say that you knew him well before the war?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you talk with him on that day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you talk about? Do you remember?

15 A. We talked, as I said, about those two; where they were from, who

16 they were, what they were, and he insisted on being told where his brother

17 might be and how he could contact him. That's Ahmo Tihic.

18 Q. Very well. Did you discuss these uniforms with these men?

19 A. Yes. We liked the uniforms. We thought they were very

20 interesting. And I wanted Dzemo, my friend, to lend me one of those

21 uniforms.

22 Q. And did anyone in Susnjari have uniforms before that time?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And what did Dzemo tell you about the uniform?

25 A. He took out a uniform from his backpack and showed it to me, but

Page 13049

1 he said it was a gift for his brother, Ahmo Tihic, and that he couldn't

2 give it to me, but that he would try to get one for me from one of his

3 friends. However, I never did receive a uniform from them.

4 Q. Did you find out whether Ahmo's brother managed to reach Ahmo?

5 A. Yes. Very soon after that, and he remained in Srebrenica until

6 the fall of Srebrenica, and that is, until the end of the war.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I now wish to have a

8 video played. It's P433, the part that begins at 54:39. It's a very

9 brief video clip.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I know that best. In Skelani --"

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just hang on a second. Thank you

13 very much.

14 Q. Witness, do you recognise this person, first of all?

15 A. Yes. This is Ahmo Tihic.

16 Q. Take a good look at the uniform here. Is this a uniform like the

17 one you saw that day, that Nurif's men had, including the one shown to you

18 by Ahmo Tihic's brother, or the one he was wearing?

19 A. Yes. This is the uniform they wore, the uniform brought by the

20 lads from Tuzla.

21 Q. Did they all have the same insignia on those uniforms?

22 A. No. The insignia were of different sizes, but they were lilies.

23 However, they were of different sizes.

24 Q. Before Nurif's men arrived in your area, did you see uniforms in

25 other Muslims groups in the Srebrenica area?

Page 13050

1 A. Yes, but not like these. Sometime around the 12th of April, or

2 the 20th of April --

3 Q. Just a moment. The 20th of April of what year?

4 A. 1992.

5 Q. You can continue now.

6 A. While -- before my area was physically cut off, around the 20th

7 of April, I met Mr. Oric and I saw him in a similar uniform, but not

8 identical to these, and there were four or five men with him. The

9 uniforms were quite different.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to discuss this uniform with Oric, and

11 did you ask him where he got it from?

12 A. Yes, I did. I asked him and his lads - there were five or six of

13 them - and they said that they had taken these uniforms from Arkan's men

14 when they set an ambush for them in Potocari. They took those uniforms

15 and some ammunition. There was a 53, a sniper, light infantry weapons,

16 and so on, and they took those uniforms from them.

17 Q. When you say "took," what does that mean?

18 A. They took them off the bodies of dead soldiers, and from a vehicle

19 that had been damaged.

20 Q. Were there other fighters who got hold of uniforms in the same

21 manner?

22 A. Yes, but this happened very rarely.

23 Q. Before the demilitarisation, was this the only way, except for the

24 uniforms brought along by Nurif's men, was this the only way to obtain

25 uniforms, or did you get them from somewhere?

Page 13051

1 A. The only way was the way I've described. There was no other way.

2 Sometimes one could make a uniform from some tarpaulin left over by the

3 former JNA, but this also was very rare.

4 Q. From what you saw when you arrived in Srebrenica, how many men had

5 uniforms? Was it a small number, a large number? How would you describe

6 it?

7 A. A small number of men had uniforms. It was mostly these lads who

8 had arrived from Tuzla with Mr. Rizvanovic, who wore uniforms.

9 Q. Do you remember whether they had any kind of nickname?

10 A. Yes. They were called Nurif's men.

11 Q. Any other nickname connected to the colour of their uniform, if

12 you recall?

13 A. Yes. They were called Arkan's men, Naser's men, Sidik's men,

14 Zulfo's men, if that's what you mean.

15 Q. No. I meant something to do with uniform, but it doesn't matter.

16 We'll move on to something else.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have another video

18 played now. It's P318, the first of two videos, the part that begins at

19 0018 to 0021.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can stop it now.

22 Q. First of all, do you recognise anyone here?

23 A. Yes. Naser Oric.

24 Q. Can you take a look at his uniform.

25 A. Yes. This is a uniform that was worn by Arkan's and Seselj's men

Page 13052












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13053

1 when, on the 17th of April, 1992, there was an ultimatum and there were

2 talks in Fontana. This is the original uniform. Moreover, I think that

3 Mr. Oric didn't even remove the insignia. I saw something like this.

4 Q. This round insignia, or patch, does it have anything to do with

5 the patches you saw worn by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

6 A. No. I saw such patches only in Bratunac, and I remember them

7 well.

8 Q. Is this the uniform you saw Oric wearing when you said you met him

9 around the 20th of April, 1992?

10 A. Yes, precisely so. I can never forget that uniform, because the

11 first time I felt fear and terror was when I saw men wearing these

12 uniforms in Bratunac.

13 Q. In other words, this uniform worn by Oric did not have any other

14 specific insignia apart from the ones you saw on the 20th?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I'll now move on to another topic.

17 Following these events in August 1992, how did the situation

18 develop in the area of Susnjari?

19 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.

20 Q. I've moved on to a different topic. After the events described by

21 you in August 1992, before we moved on to these questions about the

22 uniforms, do you remember what was going on after the 8th of August,

23 1992? The situation in the area of Susnjari, how did it develop?

24 A. The situation deteriorated. The fighting intensified. There were

25 ever greater numbers of the refugees. However, we managed to physically

Page 13054

1 become connected with Brosevici, so we lifted the blockade partially. And

2 the refugees started leaving in the direction of Bljeceva. But the

3 situation in terms of the health conditions and food was terrible. And

4 the artillery and infantry attacks did not cease fully.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show D764 to

6 the witness.

7 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the Bratunac garrison,

8 dated 11 October 1992. The number is 04336999. I will quote item 1. Do

9 you have the document before you, Witness?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Item 1 indicates: "Together with the forces from Kravica, we have

12 laid strong ambushes."

13 And then look at points 3, 4, 5, where it says: "We established

14 communications according the Kravica plan. The line held by the Kravica

15 forces has not shifted towards Konjevic Polje but remains where it was

16 before. Sopotnik, Lupoglava, elevation point 661, Banjevici, Gornja

17 Brana, Donja Brana, Neradje, Krusik, elevation point 334, Marici, Lazar,

18 Menjak, Kacalovica, Ormice, Jezestica."

19 The Serbian positions in the area around your position, was it as

20 reflected in this document in August 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I will quote from paragraph 5 of this document: "The air force

23 attacked during the 10th of October 1992, in the afternoon, and on the

24 11th of October, 1992, they attacked the forces intervening from

25 Srebrenica."

Page 13055

1 To the best of your knowledge, the aviation, did it fire upon the

2 area where you were, upon your positions, on the 10th of October, 1992?

3 A. Yes. On the 10th of October 1992 and onwards, around Susnjari,

4 Potocari, the entire area, Glogova, was under attack.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

7 witness another document. This is Defence Exhibit D818. This is a

8 document of the command of the Drina Corps, dated 19 November 1992,

9 entitled "The cutting off of the Srebrenica-Cerska corridor, order." I

10 will read to you item 1, where it is stated: "Cut off the

11 Srebrenica-Cerska corridor on the general axis along the Kravica, Rogac

12 villages."

13 Q. I don't know if you have the larger map that we used yesterday, if

14 you have it before you.

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. It is map D841.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If it could be shown to the witness.

18 Q. Could you please show the Trial Chamber the entire area of the

19 village of Kravica on the map. Therefore, not the very centre of the

20 village of Kravica but all of the inhabited areas coming under the village

21 of Kravica.

22 A. The village of Kravica covers a wider area. The local commune

23 embraces some 20 to 25 villages, including Jezestica, Siljkovici,

24 Veresinje, Konjevic Polje -- I apologise. Kajici, Brezik.

25 Q. Can you roughly encircle the area with the pointer.

Page 13056

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please show the area of Rogac for the Trial

3 Chamber.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. The entire area.

6 A. Including Koprivno, up to Koprivno.

7 Q. What -- in what way would this cutting off the Srebrenica-Cerska

8 corridor affect Susnjari and your area?

9 A. This would mean that we would be physically cut off from Konjevic

10 Polje and it would be connected with the military forces.

11 Q. What sort of meaning did it have for you in Susnjari?

12 A. This would mean that we would be entirely cut off from Konjevic

13 Polje.

14 Q. You have told us that up to that point, the refugees were able to

15 move between your area and Konjevic Polje, although there were some of

16 them who suffered as casualties. But what does this order mean for you?

17 A. It meant preparations for the total destruction of my area.

18 Q. Could you please look at point 3 of the document, as follows:

19 "The commanders of the Birac and Bratunac Light Brigades are duty-bound to

20 organise direct and full coordination and work out a plan of coordinated

21 action."

22 In the second half of November 1992, did you in Susnjari know

23 about the coordinated action and possible large-scale attacks against your

24 area?

25 A. Yes. As I've said, I was able to follow the developments through

Page 13057

1 my police Motorola. I fully understood what was going on and I had the

2 information. I was also able to follow visually what was going on.

3 Q. Did you inform anyone thereof, anyone who was close to your

4 positions?

5 A. Yes. The leader of the group from Jaglici and Brezovik.

6 Q. Did it cause panic in your area?

7 A. Not only panic, but fear.

8 Q. Did you personally try to reach Srebrenica to inform them of the

9 situation in your area?

10 A. Yes. Around the 24th of November, I believe it was, that I went

11 to Srebrenica, to the municipality building, where I tried to explain the

12 situation on the ground in terms of food, accommodation and manpower, and

13 to tell them what lay in store for us.

14 Q. Did you try to obtain help from them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you talk to over there?

17 A. I talked to certain groups in Srebrenica and the representatives

18 of the Srebrenica Presidency, Senad [as interpreted], who was then

19 standing for Abdic, because I was late for that meeting.

20 Q. You said "Senahid" rather than "Senad," as it was entered into the

21 transcript. Do you know this man? What's his last name?

22 A. Senahid hails from Skenderici, Stozerska, and that area.

23 Q. Do you remember whether Naser Oric was there? You know him well.

24 Did you talk to him?

25 A. No. According to the information I obtained that day, Naser Oric

Page 13058

1 was not there. That same day, there were very strong infantry, artillery

2 attacks upon the area of Potocari.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, because I am sure, for example, that --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, please, because I'm sure that part of

6 your question, previous question, for example, was not even translated in

7 time for him to answer. You had asked him for the last name of Senahid,

8 and you can see from his answer that he never got that part of the

9 question interpreted for him. And the reason is that he is immediately

10 answering before you have even finished your question.

11 So, Mr. Ademovic, if you don't want to get more angry looks from

12 the interpreters' booths, please slow down and allow an interval, a very

13 short interval of time, and allow Ms. -- not just Ms. Vidovic to finish,

14 but allow the interpreters to translate to us in English, and to others in

15 French, what has been stated by Ms. Vidovic. Because otherwise, we will

16 never get there.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I apologise.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you remember Senahid's last name?

20 A. Tabakovic.

21 Q. Tabakovic. Thank you very much.

22 You indicated that you had sought assistance from the people in

23 Srebrenica and from representatives of other armed groups, in view of the

24 difficult situation you were in. Did you ever get the assistance?

25 A. No, never.

Page 13059

1 Q. From that point onwards, did your situation grow ever more

2 difficult?

3 A. Yes, in every respect.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

5 witness a document issued by the command of the Drina Corps, number

6 04358083, dated 13th December 1992, wherein it is stated: "The execution

7 of the combat linking up between Sekovici and the command of the Bratunac

8 Brigade." It was issued by Colonel Milenko Zivanovic to the command of

9 the Bratunac Brigade. The number is, as I said, 04358083, and I will

10 quote the first part of the document, Mr. Ademovic, please.

11 It is stated here: "Because of linking up the combat schedule in

12 the village of Koprivno, Manovici, Brezanci, Siljkovici, you should

13 organise for your commanding officer, or several commanding officers, to

14 arrive on the 14th of December, 1992, at 9.00, in the village of Manovici,

15 where they will be joined by the commander of the Milici battalion units.

16 They are also duty-bound to agree in detail on the organisation of the

17 combat line."

18 Q. This part of the document I read out for you, according to your

19 experience, is that the realisation of the order of the Drina Corps of the

20 19 December of 1992 to cut off the corridor along Kravica-Birac?

21 A. Yes, in its entirety.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

23 assigned a number.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I just look at the document?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. You can look at the villages.

Page 13060

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Manovici, Brezanci,

2 Siljkovici. At Brezanci and Siljkovici, the forces linked up physically

3 and these were the villages from which we were constantly attacked.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In other words, these were Serbian villages?

6 A. Yes. Serbian villages directly contiguous to my area of Susnjari,

7 Ravni Buljim, and Jaglici.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, consisting of two pages, the

9 one B/C/S having ERN number 0458083, and the next page being the

10 corresponding translation thereof into English, is being tendered and

11 marked as Defence Exhibit D848.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the usher's assistance

13 in showing a new document to the witness. This is a document by the

14 Milici garrison command, dated 14 December 1992. This is an order by the

15 commander, Bosko Sargic, addressed to the command of the Birac Brigade,

16 number 04337183. And I will quote a part of the document. A part of item

17 2.

18 It is stated: "Reconnaissance of the area towards Kravica was

19 completed on our side, but the troops from Kravica did not come to the

20 rendezvous, probably for justified reasons. We sent a letter by courier

21 to Kravica and proposed the following: We should set up ambushes by 1200

22 hours on the 15th of December, 1992. The line of contact with Kravica

23 should be the village of Bare in the Kravica area. The ambush commander

24 on our side should be Blagoje Vidovic. The ambush should be set up along

25 the line Manovici village, Crvanj stream, Brezanci village, across the

Page 13061

1 trig point BTT1, then via Boksin Potok up to Bare and further on. The men

2 from Kravica should continue from Bare via Hajducko Groblje to Siljkovici.

3 We are requesting agreement from the Kravica men and the brigade and

4 then we can start carrying out the task. Communication and artillery have

5 not been planned because we have not met to agree on this point."

6 Q. The villages mentioned in this document, the villages of Manovici,

7 Crvanj Potok, Brezanci, are these the villages neighbouring your area?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember what was going on in mid-December 1992 in your

10 area?

11 A. Sometime in mid-December 1992, the circle began to tighten around

12 my area and there was an intense planned and systematic artillery attack

13 on the area of Susnjari, Jaglici, and Brezova Njiva, Cizmici, Velika

14 Glogova, all the way down to Birac, in that area.

15 Q. Please, while this was going on, were those thousands of refugees

16 you spoke about still with you?

17 A. Yes. They had nowhere to go.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this exhibit be

20 given a number.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic. This document, which consists of

22 one page in B/C/S, with ERN 04337183, and the other page being the --

23 containing the corresponding translation thereof into English, is being

24 tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D849.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

Page 13062












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Page 13063

1 witness D821.

2 Q. This is a document issued by the Bratunac Brigade Command. It's

3 dated the 15th of December, 1992. The title is "Reply to telegram." It's

4 addressed to the Drina Corps commander and sent by Lieutenant Colonel

5 Borivoje Tesic. The document bears the number 04361565.

6 I will quote to you the first part of this document, which says:

7 "This is to inform you that, in order to ensure the link-up of combat

8 dispositions of units along the Koprivno village, Manovici village,

9 Brezanci village, Siljkovici village axis, this is to inform you that

10 Officer Jovan Nikolic, also known as Jole, went to Manovici village to

11 discuss the matter with an officer from Milici."

12 In connection with this, do you know who Jovan Nikolic, also known

13 as Jole, is and where he's from?

14 A. Yes. Jovan Nikolic, also known as Jole, was from Kravica. He was

15 a teacher there. But at that time, he was a commander.

16 Q. This village of Manovici, where, according to the document, this

17 meeting took place, how far is it from the positions you held near

18 Susnjari?

19 A. From my position to Rogaci, it's between three and four kilometres

20 as the crow flies, and midway is about two kilometres as the crow flies,

21 so Their Honours can work it out.

22 Q. So the village of Manovici, how far is it from your position?

23 A. About two kilometres as the crow flies.

24 Q. Thank you. According to what you experienced, was there a

25 physical link-up between the Milici and Kravica troops in order to isolate

Page 13064

1 the area of Susnjari, as well as Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

4 a document. The title is "List of persons in military post, 2465/5, who

5 have been paid compensation for official trips and paid for November

6 1992-infantry battalion." The document is 01397801 to 01319796.

7 And before we go on to discuss this document, I wish to ask you

8 whether you had any knowledge that during November 1992, the Bratunac

9 Brigade had been formed.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know what the position of the Kravica troops was in that

12 brigade?

13 A. Yes. Through the means of communication I had, that is, my

14 Motorola, I heard it mentioned as the 3rd Battalion.

15 Q. Thank you. Now please take a look first at page 1, where it says

16 "3rd infantry battalion command." Look at the names here: Milan

17 Milanovic, Nikolic Jovan, Krsto Cvjetinovic, and Nedjo Nikolic. These are

18 numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4. Did you know any of these men?

19 A. Yes. Jovan Nikolic, Major Nikolic, also known as Djedura.

20 Q. Thank you. Where were these people from?

21 A. From Kravica.

22 Q. Thank you. Now please look at the part where it says "1st

23 Infantry Company." This is a very clear document. Do you know the names?

24 Do you recognise the names on this list? For instance, look at numbers 22

25 to 29 on the next page.

Page 13065

1 A. Eric is from the centre of Kravica.

2 Q. Did you know them?

3 A. Yes. The Ilic family were from Kravica. They had moved there

4 from Magasici, from Magasici, the area above Jezestica, in the Veresinje

5 area. Zoran Ilic.

6 Q. What number is he here? Is that number 29?

7 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now please turn another page. To save time, look where it says

9 "2nd Infantry Company," on page 4.

10 A. Yes. These are family names from the general area of Kravica,

11 from the periphery of Kravica; Brezik, Popovici, Mandici, towards Glogova

12 Mountain, to the north of Kravica.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the original, it

14 says "2nd Infantry Company," whereas here it's being translated as

15 "detachment." I think it should be "company" rather than "detachment."

16 And the interpreters can confirm.

17 Q. Can you see, Witness, that it says 1st and 2nd Infantry Company?

18 A. Yes. I see it says the 2nd Infantry Company.

19 Q. And where did you say these people were from? Whom do you know

20 personally?

21 A. I know the Gavrics.

22 Q. For example, Panto Gavric, son of Krste, where is he from?

23 A. He's from the village of Gavrici, near Popovici -- the village of

24 Mandici, Mandici.

25 Q. Thank you. Now turn to the next page and look at the numbers from

Page 13066

1 214 to 219. Do you know the Vasiljevics?

2 A. The Vasiljevics were from the Brezik area, from Avdagina Njiva on

3 the plateau towards Mandici and Popovici. That's the area where there are

4 some dispersed hamlets, bigger and smaller ones.

5 Q. Did you know Pavle Vasiljevic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, in order not to waste time, please move to the next page,

8 where it says "3rd Infantry Company," and look at these names.

9 A. These names are from the general area of Jezestica, from

10 Veresinje, Rankovici, Radovici, Kajici, Donje and Gornje, that is Stara

11 Jezestica, and Djermani, all the way to Siljkovici.

12 Q. All right. Now, for example, look at the name under 353. It's on

13 the next page. Gajo Mladjenovic, son of Nedje, did you know him?

14 A. Yes. He was a neighbour of mine.

15 Q. Where is he from?

16 A. From Jezestica.

17 Q. Did you know Milenko Trisic, son of Slavoljuba?

18 A. Yes. The Trisics were from Jezestica, both Donja and Gornja, both

19 old and new Jezestica, and these were two twin brothers. Their father's

20 name is Slavoljuba. And one of them is employed in the Bratunac police

21 station.

22 Q. Thank you. Now look at the independent platoon, Donji Bacici.

23 Did you know that there was a unit in Bacici?

24 A. Yes. All these are local people from Bacici. They had a platoon.

25 I know all these names.

Page 13067

1 Q. Very well. Now look at the next page. This is the mortar

2 platoon.

3 A. I do apologise. There's also a Banjevici platoon here, and this

4 is from my village. I know it well.

5 Q. Very well. Look at the next page, please, where it says "Mortar

6 platoon, 82-millimetre mortar platoon." Have you found it? Have you

7 found this? The computer number is 01319789, and it's right under Donji

8 Bacici, on the next page. Have you found it? Do you see that?

9 A. Between Donji and Gornji Bacici there's a mortar platoon.

10 Q. Yes, but do you see here on the paper where it says "Mortar

11 platoon"? Please don't misunderstand me as suggesting that it was there

12 in that area. It's what it says here on this document, "Mortar platoon,

13 82 millimetres," and it appears that there are 25 names here. Do you know

14 that during 1992, or rather, do you know where in 1992 the Kravica forces

15 artillery positions were?

16 A. Yes. In the Brezik area. That is the plateau, where you can

17 position a larger number.

18 Q. And where else? Can you make your replies brief. Can you tell us

19 where?

20 A. Brezik and Rogac.

21 Q. Very well. Did you know whether the Serbs had any weapons in the

22 areas of Banjevici or Bacici?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember what they had there?

25 A. Yes. Mortar artillery, tanks.

Page 13068

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now please look further in this document.

2 Did you know that there was a unit in Gornji Bacici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Turn the page, please. You mentioned knowing that there was an

5 independent platoon or a unit in Banjevici?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well. Now turn the page, where it says the Lipenovici

8 Independent Platoon. In your testimony you mentioned Lipenovici more than

9 once. Please have a look at this list. Do you know the men listed as

10 belonging to the Lipenovici Independent Platoon?

11 A. Yes. These were close neighbours of mine, and they were holding

12 the lines in the Buljim area. The elevation was 820. It was called Ravni

13 Buljim. I apologise, but please, let's clarify this.

14 Q. Will you tell us whom precisely you know from this list?

15 A. Milenko Cvjetinovic, Milo Jovanovic, Dragomir Milicevic, Radovana

16 Radoje, son of Radovan Pavlovic. Radovan, son of Cvijetina Popovic.

17 Q. Thank you. You need not go on. I just wanted to ask you whether

18 you knew about the existence of this platoon throughout 1992, from the

19 beginning of the war onwards?

20 A. Yes. They were at the front lines, holding those lines.

21 Q. Thank you. Now turn to the next page, please. Do you see that it

22 says here "volunteers"? Please take a look at this list. It says

23 "volunteers." And look at these last names. You told us that, as a

24 policeman, you visited this area, that you knew the area well, as well as

25 the people there. These last names listed as volunteers, are these local

Page 13069

1 men? Do you know them? Or are these last names which were not prevalent

2 in the area?

3 A. The only one I know is Jovanovic. All the others are unfamiliar

4 names in that area.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, according to this document, one

6 would say that the Kravica Battalion, or rather, the 3rd Infantry

7 Battalion, in November 1992, had at least 600 soldiers in Kravica and its

8 hamlets. Does this correspond to what you knew about the manpower levels

9 of this battalion at this time, in November 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, may this

12 document be given an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. This document, which consists

14 of 32 pages, 16 in B/C/S and 16 in English, with ERN 01319781 to 796, both

15 numbers included, is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D850.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the usher's assistance

17 now in showing the witness the Defence Exhibit D380. This is a document

18 of financial nature. It is a payment order to be transferred by the 3rd

19 Kravica Battalion, dated 8 December 1992, and the number is 02065934. And

20 I will quote: "As ordered by the account holder, Bratunac municipality

21 budget, transfer of funds for the expenses of the 3rd Kravica Battalion as

22 per the conclusion of the IO."

23 Q. Does Kravica form part of the Bratunac municipality?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Based on your experience, if someone were to claim that the

Page 13070

1 Kravica forces were not linked up with the Army of Republika Srpska in the

2 area, nor assisted by the Serbian army, would that be true, based on what

3 you know?

4 A. No. Quite the opposite. They were organised and linked up.

5 Q. In your opinion, does this document confirm that the 3rd Battalion

6 was financed from Bratunac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You can set this document aside, Mr. Ademovic, and I will now turn

9 to the situation around the 15th of December, 1992, when, as you've said,

10 you were isolated by the Kravica and Milic units from Konjevic Polje.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher show another

12 document to the witness. This is document 04306275, which is a request

13 from the command of the Bratunac Brigade, dated 15 December 1992, for

14 materiel to be provided, including jet fuel, aerial bombs -- 100 aerial

15 bombs, to be precise. Do you have the document? It is stated: "Pursuant

16 to the request of the Bratunac Brigade command, strictly confidential

17 number -- of 15 December 1992, please provide the following materiel: Jet

18 fuel, 25.000 litres, and 100 aerial bombs."

19 Q. You have described for us that you were encircled by the forces

20 that you said were forces from Kravica and Milici. The encirclement, was

21 it supported by air raids against the area of Susnjari?

22 A. Yes. It was directed against the stretch from Susnjari to

23 Potocari, Fakovici, including Konjevic Polje and Cerska.

24 Q. I'm asking you about the Jaglici and Susnjari area, whether the

25 encirclement there was also supported by air attacks.

Page 13071

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was it your impression in the field that these units that were

3 attacking you, that they had the support of the aviation from Bratunac?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

6 given a number.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. This will become document D851

8 and consists of two pages, one in B/C/S, one in English, ERN 04306275.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show a new

10 document to the witness. This is a document issued by the Drina Corps

11 Command, dated 15 December 1992, bearing the number 04306258. This is a

12 brief document. Could the witness please take a look at the document.

13 I will quote the document: "Drina Corps Command, to the General

14 Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska." You can see that the fifth map is

15 mentioned here, and I will quote: "In the sector of Milica Brdo, near

16 Milic, oil is leaking from a Nora 152-millimetre howitzer and nitrogen is

17 coming out of an HES. Urgent intervention by an artillery mechanic and

18 spare parts and tools are needed. An artillery mechanic is to report to

19 Captain Starcevic in the 5th Map Command and he will take him to the

20 combat position with a representative of the unit."

21 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what sort of an artillery

22 weapon is Nora 152 millimetres. Is this something that you had occasion

23 to experience?

24 A. Yes. Let me clarify. The Nora howitzer is a very long-range

25 artillery piece that is very powerful. It can easily destroy an entire

Page 13072












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13073

1 building.

2 Q. In this time period, including between autumn and the 7th January

3 1993, was your area ever targeted with such powerful weapon as this

4 particular howitzer?

5 A. Yes. From June 1992 until the end of the war, in fact.

6 Q. Yes. That's fine. However, my question focussed specifically on

7 this particular time period.

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the document be

10 assigned an exhibit number, and could the usher show the witness another

11 document.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime, this document will become

13 Defence Exhibit D852. It consists of two pages, again one in English and

14 one in B/C/S, ERN 04306258.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe the usher has already

16 distributed Defence Exhibit D772. This is a document by the Bratunac

17 Brigade Command, dated 16th December 1992, addressed to the Drina Corps

18 Command. The document says: "In the course of the night, open artillery

19 fire on the following features: Susnjari, Potocari, Pale, Jaglici,

20 Poloznik, Pirici."

21 Q. Do you recall whether, on the 16th of December, 1992, or

22 thereabouts, there were artillery attacks against primarily Susnjari and

23 Jaglici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have that large map with you? Would you please show the

Page 13074

1 Trial Chamber the area covered by this order; Susnjari, Potocari, Pale,

2 Jaglici, Poloznik, Pirici. Can you show the Trial Chamber the area.

3 A. All the way to Pirici. That is practically the entire territory

4 of the municipality of Srebrenica and the free territory of Bratunac -- or

5 rather, Bratunac itself.

6 Q. Therefore, that entire area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that from the 16th of December, 1992, the Serbian

9 forces increased their pressure on the entire area? And when I say "the

10 entire area," I mean your area of Susnjari, Jaglici, Brezova Njiva.

11 A. Yes, my area as well. However, the thrust of the attack was on

12 Cizmici, Bljeceva, Glogova, and Konjevic Polje.

13 Q. Did you have any information about what was going on in Cizmici

14 and Velika Glogova?

15 A. Yes. There were grave concerns over these attacks because there

16 were large numbers of refugees in that area, especially in Glogova.

17 Q. You mean Velika Glogova?

18 A. Yes, I meant Velika Glogova.

19 Q. How did you obtain the information concerning Velika Glogova and

20 Cizmici?

21 A. First of all, through the communication that I had; second,

22 through the refugees who arrived in the area.

23 Q. When you say through your communication, does that mean that you

24 learnt it from the Muslims who were able to communicate or from the Serbs?

25 A. No. From the Serbs. I meant my Motorola.

Page 13075

1 Q. According to what you knew, did the Muslims in the area have a

2 Motorola, as you did?

3 A. No. There were large numbers of refugees, though, who went out in

4 search of food.

5 Q. Were you able to be of any help in the area at all?

6 A. I tried to help them by attacking from the direction of Jezestica

7 and Veresinje, but I was unable to.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will stop

9 for today.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. I just had Madam

11 Registrar check how much time you have used already. Stopping now, you've

12 used five hours, 40 minutes. How much more do you require? How much more

13 do you need? I'm asking you because more or less we need to know whether

14 this gentleman is going to need to stay here over the weekend or whether

15 we can send him home on Friday.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope to be able to

17 finish in the first session tomorrow, therefore, in an hour and a half. I

18 did my best, and I really can't believe that I spent so much time already.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And Mr. Di Fazio, I know that the

20 examination-in-chief is not finished yet. Are you optimistic that you

21 would be able to finish your cross by the end of business on Friday?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Cautious optimism, yes. I'm well aware of the

23 issues, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not forcing you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I know that you're not, Your Honours, and I know

Page 13076

1 that and I appreciate that and the Prosecution is grateful to you for

2 that. But it makes no sense to not try and finish before Friday, so I'll

3 do everything I can. I think I'll be able to.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I hope that you understand that we are

5 doing our level best to make it possible for you to go home Saturday, but

6 you are also volunteering much more information than you are asked. So

7 the chances of staying here are quite high.

8 I thank all the staff for overstaying by about five minutes, and

9 we'll meet again tomorrow, again in the afternoon. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.21 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of

12 October 2005, at 2.15 p.m.