1 Tuesday, 22 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, ladies
12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you, too. You
14 may be seated.
15 Appearances for the Prosecution.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and also good afternoon
18 to the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution.
19 I am here together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers, Ms. Joanne
20 Richardson, and our acting case manager, Ms. Sanja Bokulic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good
22 afternoon to you and your team.
23 Appearances for Naser Oric.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good
25 afternoon to our colleagues from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and
1 I appear on behalf of Mr. Naser Oric. Together with me there are
2 Ms. Adisa Mehic, our legal assistant, and Mr. Geoff Roberts, our CaseMap
3 manager. Mr. Jones, due to his obligations and his duties in London will
4 not be present today but he will return shortly.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic.
6 Let us deal -- first of all, do you have any preliminaries
7 yourself, Mr. Wubben?
8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, yesterday we filed a reply --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
10 MR. WUBBEN: Reply in the third-party request for --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: The Nikolic one --
12 MR. WUBBEN: -- access to information. It was on close of
13 business, and I refer to that filing. I trust the Defence already
14 received a copy. We also would like to oppose the 92 bis motion in
15 written form.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And when are we going to expect that?
17 MR. WUBBEN: One moment, Your Honour.
18 We should be able to provide by the end of the week. It might be
19 Monday, but I trust we will be fine again.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I want you to understand, both of you, please, that
21 as we plod ahead and approach the end of this trial, every day counts. So
22 if you are going to oppose the application of Rule 92 bis testimony for
23 these two witnesses, and for the -- for argument's sake let's say we agree
24 with you, then they have to make arrangements to bring these two persons.
25 So -- which brings me, actually, to two other things. I mean -- please
1 remain standing because I will deal with them straight away.
2 I am informed by my Legal Officer that in relation to the Defence
3 response to decision on urgent Defence motion regarding prosecutorial
4 non-compliance with Rule 68 filed on the 17th of November, and Defence
5 response to Prosecution declaration searches, stating searches, et cetera,
6 that you ask to have 14 days within which to reply to the first one, the
7 tick one, in other words, with the various documents; and seven days to
8 reply to the second.
9 Now, I will not waste too much words on this last one, because the
10 seven days will lapse on Thursday in any case, and today is Tuesday, so at
11 the end of the day we are talking of just two days more and that's it,
12 finished. I do recognise that this might require a few days more, but not
13 14 days. I mean, why ask for the pound of flesh when we are so tight for
14 time and when we are trying to economise as much as possible on time and I
15 am putting pressure on both of you to economise on time. And the end
16 result could entail a further delay in the proceedings, because we will
17 have to deal with all this. I mean, I anticipate that we will have to
18 spend -- and again, half a sitting on new allegations of -- a new
19 allegation of non-observance of Rule 68 -- 68. As you know, there is one
20 allegation -- one fresh allegation with a forewarning of more to come. I
21 mean, please do try to understand the concerns, the preoccupation, that we
23 So I am not going to give you 14 days, but I am not going to give
24 you much less. You will have until Monday, yesterday week in other words.
25 The date would be the 28th of November to respond -- respond to this. And
1 Thursday is okay for the other one. But please don't put us in a position
2 where we have to pressurise you even further because we need to move on.
3 We need to move on, and this is frightening. The way things are going,
4 it's frightening.
5 So the position, Madam Registrar, is as follows: That with regard
6 to the Prosecution request to be able to respond to the Defence response
7 to Prosecution declaration stating searches, location of searches,
8 et cetera, filed on the 17th of November, the Prosecution will have until
9 the end of the day for registry purposes of Thursday, Thursday -- this
11 As regards the other one, the Prosecution's request to respond to
12 the Defence response to decision on urgent Defence motion regarding
13 prosecutorial non-compliance with Rule 68, our preference would be if you
14 could file it by the end of Friday, so that we can take it home with us,
15 read it, study it, and on Monday we can come back fully cognizant of what
16 it says.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you make an effort, I am sure you can file all
19 this by the end of business on Friday.
20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, if I may respond to this.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
22 MR. WUBBEN: I haven't -- I have made a request to do for making
23 use for 14 days, rather I confirmed to this Trial Chamber that we will
24 respond in written form to this and confirming at the same time that we
25 will need the seven and the 14 days. So it's not a request from my side.
1 It is more information expressed towards the Court. And when I mean using
2 14 days, then I mean of course also for the Prosecution it's very
3 important to file any earlier than possible. When we make, however, the
4 assessment, we know what it is and what it means to implement a -- an
5 operation to check and check out all the ramifications that comes out of
6 allegations or a -- policy matters or any issues raised in the filing. We
7 want to do that not quickly like assuming something or speculation or
8 stating, we want to do a full response.
9 So what my information towards your Trial Chamber is that we
10 indeed tried to be as early as possible. We can aim for, let's say,
11 Monday, but we cannot exclude that we will need more time, and that's only
12 because we have to check things out and to address issues that aren't even
13 easy to check in -- from an administration point of view. That's due to
14 the fact -- to the very fact that we have disclosure issues, and it's
15 always very difficult to address when it comes to earlier times years ago.
16 Your Honour, with a view to the 92 bis application, that was only
17 the opposing of one 92 bis witness. There are two announced and those two
18 we don't know anything about it. But we also are very much aware of the
19 fact that it's rather 92 bis than direct. But again, we will argue that
20 from that position.
21 One moment, please.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. WUBBEN: So, Your Honours, it's just to underline that there's
24 one 92 bis application done, and we will oppose that; and the other one we
25 will wait for the proper --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, the other one we are still waiting for.
2 But the thing is this, Mr. Wubben. Almost a month ago now when
3 this new accusation of non-disclosure of -- fresh violation of Rule 68
4 arose, we told you, Mr. Wubben, you're being told, it's being alleged,
5 that notwithstanding your previous declarations of having fulfilled all
6 your obligations under Rule 68, you're being told that you've still got
7 some more skeletons in your cupboards, in your wardrobes. And we told
8 you, Go and check your wardrobes, your cabinets, check every nook and
9 corner to make sure that you haven't got any skeletons there. And you
10 have come back telling us, We have done everything that we could. We
11 don't have any more skeletons left.
12 Then the Defence comes up and says, Well, that's not correct.
13 There is a fresh allegation and promise of more to come, as I suspected
14 all along.
15 The question is -- I can't accept your arguments that you need
16 much more time to do all these verifications. You are supposed to have
17 done all these verifications. I can assure you, this is not going to
18 change. This is not going to change. This is the tragedy of this case.
19 This is not going to change. We will deal with this new allegation and we
20 will hand down a provision, if it's necessary, and immediately after we'll
21 have another one. This is how it's going to be.
22 So at the end of the day, if you need until Monday, I'm prepared
23 to give you until Monday. But please, don't put us in a worse position
24 than we already are. We have an obligation to see this case through, and
25 all these issues that are arising from time to time are only cutting down
1 from the time we need to hear and finish with the evidentiary stage. I
2 mean, we've lost almost half an hour already on this.
3 So please try to come back with your response on the second one by
4 Thursday, as that's the full seven days, and the other one by not later
5 than Monday, Monday, the 28th, it will be, end of business on Monday, the
6 28th, which is not much less than the 14 -- than what the 14 days would
7 have been. The 14 days would have been the 1st or 2nd of December, so we
8 are not far off. That's it. And, please, do your utmost to put the mind
9 of the Trial Chamber at rest that this business of alleged non-disclosure
10 of -- under Rule 68, this will be the last time that we will be discussing
11 or that we will have to discuss this in the courtroom. And that, in other
12 words, there will not be any future need or any need for future
13 discussions on further allegations on alleged Rule 68 violations. Because
14 that is compromising the work of this Trial Chamber in that we are never
15 in a position to plan correctly ahead. And already I've made my
16 calculations. We've practically moved the evidentiary stage practically
17 to the end of February, and this is not what I had in mind. This is the
18 big problem.
19 So I think I have dealt with that. The other -- the response that
20 you have filed, Nikolic, I was not aware of it at all until a few minutes
21 before I came into the courtroom. But, Mr. Pittman informed me -- he was
22 not aware of it either, but I think he was made aware of it sometime
23 before the sitting and I have a copy of it. So I will ask my two
24 colleagues to -- they are in my exact, same, position. We were advised of
25 its existence only a few minutes before. We will deal with it
1 immediately. Immediately. And I thank you for the detailed response that
2 you -- that you filed. I mean, it's a very good response.
3 Any other -- are there any other preliminaries you would like to
5 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, please --
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other thing I wanted to know is this
9 expert, finger-print expert -- not finger-print, sorry, the calligraphic
10 expert. I am told you require five full days for his testimony?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will endeavour to
12 make it as short as possible, but the thing is that he will have to give
13 his expert opinion on at least 30 different documents. And if my -- in my
14 assessment I can make it in a shorter time, you can rest assured that I
15 will do so. But at this moment, I cannot tell you whether I'll be able to
16 do it in a shorter period. Nonetheless, if I realise that it is possible
17 in a shorter time, I will do so.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The other thing is I would take it -- I
19 mean, I am taking it for granted that he is going to file a written
20 report, expert report. And basically, I mean my experience in trials is
21 that he will supplement some information on the report, explain some parts
22 maybe, but not go through each and every document unless he is led by you,
23 and of course you have every right to go through each and every document.
24 But the basis of his expert report will lie in the report itself, and then
25 of course it's -- but five days. You meant five days for the Defence
1 alone and not -- you're not including the cross-examination in those five
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour. This includes
4 both in chief and cross-examination. And there is a proposal for the
5 other witness for two days. We also encompassed cross-examination in it.
6 For Mr. Bilic, we foresaw six hours for testimony, and this is -- we also
7 took the OTP into our calculations. But to reiterate, if we realise we
8 can make that period shorter, we will endeavour to do that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. Now some housekeeping
10 announcements. Since the Milosevic trial will not be sitting this -- rest
11 of this week, we have done the following arrangements. Tomorrow we are
12 sitting in the morning in any case, Wednesday. Thursday we were sitting
13 in the afternoon but now we are sitting in the morning, and Friday we are
14 sitting in the morning, aren't we? I just want to confirm this because --
15 all right.
16 Then the following week I think there is also -- this is December.
17 There is also the 30th, the 30th, we are sitting -- we have swapped with
18 the -- with Trial Chamber III, with the Milosevic trial, we will be
19 sitting in the morning and not in the afternoon on the 30th. But on the
20 29th, we will be sitting in the afternoon. On the 29th, we will be
21 sitting in the afternoon because I have Rules Committee in the morning,
22 which was very difficult to fix in any case, and can only be done on that
23 day. So there is no point in switching.
24 The other thing that I wanted to say is that in all probability on
25 Tuesday, 6th December, this I can check, 6th December -- yes, it might not
1 affect our trial. We are going to have an extraordinary plenary, the
2 Judges I mean, not you -- we are going to have an extraordinary plenary on
3 the 6th. I take it that it will be in the morning, so it should not be
4 impossible for us to meet with our commitments for an afternoon sitting
5 at 2.15. But if there are any changes there, I would alert you -- alert
6 you beforehand. All right. But do keep in mind that. So there is no
7 point in trying to switch that sitting to the morning because we will be
8 occupied in plenary on that day. Yes.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The position is this: That if the 30th -- the
11 sitting of the 30th is not switched to the morning, we will have to cancel
12 it. That's definite.
13 All right. So no more remarks or preliminaries?
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need, members of the public, please -- we will
16 need to bring down the curtains for a while until the witness walks in the
17 courtroom. This witness is -- enjoys certain protective measures. You
18 will be able to follow the proceedings, but you can't see this person
19 walking in. As soon as he is seated, we will pull the curtains up again.
20 He is going to be D005, isn't he? Facial and voice distortion.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon to you, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, it's important that everyone makes sure that
1 when the witness is speaking, all other microphones are switched off, all
3 So good afternoon to you, and welcome to this Tribunal. Please
4 wait --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait until I finish before you speak because I want.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon to you, sir.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, it's important that everyone makes sure that
10 when the witness is speaking, all other microphones are switched off, all
12 So good afternoon to you, and welcome to this Tribunal. Please
13 wait --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait until I finish before you speak because I want
16 to make sure that it's only -- when you speak only your microphone is
17 switched on.
18 You are about to start giving evidence in this trial. Upon your
19 own request, I, together with Judge Brydensholt from Denmark and Judge
20 Eser from Germany, granted you some protective measures. These consist in
21 the following. During the proceedings you will not be referred to by your
22 name or by any other indication that could identify you. Your face will
23 not be shown in the transmissions of this case, and your voice will be
24 distorted. In other words, when you are giving testimony, others will not
25 hear your true voice but they will hear a distorted version of it.
1 Your testimony, however, will be in open session. In other words,
2 others will be able to follow what you are saying. However, at any time
3 we need to go into private session because otherwise your identity would
4 be revealed, then of course we will be in private session and what you say
5 will remain inside these four walls. For example, when we start with your
6 testimony, Madam Vidovic will be asking you your name, your surname, where
7 you were -- when you were born, where you live, and so on and so forth.
8 If -- that information will not be in public session, it will be in
9 private session, so that no one else will be able to hear what you are
11 Are you happy with these arrangements?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Before you start giving evidence, our rules
14 require that you enter a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath, in the
15 sense that during the course of your testimony you will be speaking the
16 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is contained
17 in a piece of paper that is going to be handed to you by Madam Registrar.
18 Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us,
19 that you will be testifying the truth.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I solemnly declare
21 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. Please take a seat.
23 We can draw up the curtains.
24 Now, sir, let me explain a few more things. I told you you will
25 not be referred to by your name or your surname or anything else that
1 could identify you, but we have given you a number. For the purposes of
2 these proceedings, you are going to be D005, D005. And you will be
3 addressed as "sir" or as "witness" as we go along. Try, while you are
4 giving evidence, not to mention the names of any relatives of yours or the
5 names of neighbours of yours as being neighbours, because at that point in
6 time one could identify you. We still have a remedy that transmissions
7 are delayed by 30 minutes, so if mistakes are made we have ample time to
8 apply a remedy. All right.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic will go first, as -- since you are a
11 Defence witness, and she will then be followed by Ms. Sellers from the
12 Prosecution team who will cross-examine you.
13 Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the first couple of
15 questions I would kindly ask us to go into private session.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go private session for a while, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 13781 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 13782 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 13783 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the usher's assistance
19 in showing the witness a map, an excerpt from the topographical map of
20 Zvornik. 1:100.000 is the scale.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, please point to Konjevic Polje and mark it off.
24 A. I cannot really find my bearings on many map. If it could perhaps
25 be focussed a bit. Konjevic Polje should be over there.
1 Q. Witness, could you please look at the map and not on the screen.
2 A. Perhaps I was unable to see it because it was in the corner,
3 Konjevic Polje, but I can see it here in this part of the map. So perhaps
4 if this map could be placed ...
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give a pen or a
6 marker to the witness so he can mark it off.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it well now.
8 Konjevic Polje.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you. Was Konjevic Polje a local commune before the war?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please show the Trial Chamber on this map the villages
13 making part of the local commune of Konjevic Polje, if you can see all of
14 them on the map.
15 A. Racici, Borkovici, Pobudje, Konjevici, with all of their
16 respective hamlets.
17 Q. Thank you. Before the war, what was the ethnic make-up of the
18 population of Konjevic Polje and its villages?
19 A. In Konjevic Polje there were 5.500 Muslims and two households, or
20 rather, two families who were Serbs.
21 Q. Thank you. Would you please show the Trial Chamber where Urkovici
23 A. Yes, here it is.
24 Q. The village of Urkovici, did it have its hamlets?
25 A. The village of Urkovici had four hamlets: Pervani, Sandici,
1 Lolici, and Grabovsko.
2 Q. Could you please repeat the names of the hamlets so that they
3 could be correctly entered into the record. Witness, would you also
4 please make a pause and wait for me to finish with my question and then
5 speak more slowly so that everything could be entered into the record.
6 Thank you.
7 A. The hamlets are Pervani, Grabovsko --
8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I make a technical intervention.
9 If the map could be moved up so we could see where the witness is marking.
10 I understand that this might be a little difficult. That way we can
11 actually follow the evidence as given.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I thank you, Ms. Sellers. Certainly that will
13 be done. And also at the moment I'm a little bit preoccupied to make
14 sure -- I'm following three screens, actually. The one on computer
15 monitor to see where he is marking; secondly, since he is moving, going
16 next to the ELMO, to make sure that his face and figure remain distorted,
17 and we are having shots of the entire courtroom, and I'm making sure that
18 he doesn't show up in any of them. So please bear with me. I assure you
19 it's not an easy job, but that's what I have been trying to do.
20 The map needs move, be centralised, which I think has been done
22 Yes, let's continue now.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Since the Prosecutor was speaking, I didn't hear you mention or
25 mark off the villages of the hamlets of Pervani, Grabovsko, Lolici,
2 A. I haven't managed to show them all. I can perhaps show them on
3 the screen because I can see them more clearly here.
4 Q. Witness, it has to be marked on the map, please.
5 A. Pervani is the hamlet of Urkovici, Grabovsko, Sandici, and Lolici,
6 four villages in all.
7 Q. Could you please show Kravica to the Trial Chamber and perhaps use
8 a marker of a different colour.
9 Witness, I can't see that you have marked the villages. Could you
10 please highlight them.
11 A. These four villages.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please mark Kravica now.
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. How far is Sandici, the hamlet of Urkovici, far from Kravica --
15 far away from Kravica?
16 A. Some 400 metres.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 500 metres.
5 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, what did the Muslim population living around Kravica --
17 what sort of experience did it have in World War II with the inhabitants
18 of Kravica?
19 A. During World War II the Kravica inhabitants, most of them were
20 members of the Chetnik army so that the people living in my own village
21 was -- were killed. I don't know if I can give you the name of the person
22 who was in that previous war nailed to a tree. His limbs were nailed to a
23 tree, and he was left standing there like that.
24 Q. Very well. I will put to you another question in connection with
25 this. Were some people from Kravica tried for war crimes after the World
1 War II for the war crimes committed against the Muslims in the surrounding
3 A. Yes. Gojo Eric and his brother Nego Eric slaughtered some 86
4 persons in the village Sopotnik and Sedici [phoen].
5 Q. Did they face a trial for this?
6 A. They were sentenced to death; however, there was a retrial and
7 they were given a sentence of some 18 years or so.
8 Q. During Tito's Yugoslavia, were Muslims well-received in Kravica?
9 A. As far as Kravica is concerned, Muslims were never welcome in
10 Kravica, not even when they lived a peaceful life there. The people in
11 Kravica were of such a peculiar character that they would not hesitate to
12 even kill a person.
13 Q. When Milosevic came to power, which Serb village in the Bratunac
14 area, if any, spearheaded the nationalist movement?
15 A. It was Kravica itself. I know that they had a meeting at which
16 Mile Milanovic was elected president of the SDS. At the time, wherever
17 you came in Kravica, whether it was a shop or a cafe or a Serb house, you
18 could see Milosevic's pictures everywhere.
19 Q. You mentioned this particular meeting or session, and it wasn't
20 unusual for such a meeting to be held. Can you tell us what sort of an
21 atmosphere prevailed at this SDS meeting.
22 A. In addition to shots fired, which would happen even several days
23 ahead of the meeting. However, when the meeting elected the SDS
24 leadership one could hear shots even in the neighbouring villages,
25 Obackici, Siljkovici, Banjevici, Brana and so on.
1 Q. Do you recall anything happening in September 1991 which caused
2 particular concern to the population in the neighbouring area?
3 A. Yes. At the time it was primarily volunteers from Kravica who
4 went to join the war against the Catholics in Croatia. They'd stayed
5 there for five days and then come back at the weekend, come back to
6 Kravica, where they would be shooting quite a lot, provoking people,
7 wearing their cockade caps, Chetnik caps. They would be shouting out to
8 the effect that similar things would be happening to us as well, that they
9 would first kill that particular ethnic group and then would start killing
11 Q. Do you recall in the course of September 1991 that some murders
12 were committed there?
13 A. Yes, I remember very well. It was about midnight that four young
14 lads were passing by in a Lada car. They were going through Kravica in
15 the direction of Bratunac. The Serb police pulled them over, because it
16 was normally the Serb police who were on duty in Kravica. These boys knew
17 that they were going to have problems with the police so they went to
18 Bratunac. And in the hamlet of Kajici there was an ambush waiting for
19 them there. And in the ambush there were Raso -- there was, among others,
20 Raso Milanovic, and they killed two of the boys and two of them managed to
21 run away.
22 Q. How was it able for you to know that Raso Milanovic was the
23 perpetrator of these murders?
24 A. I know about this because the following day I went with a member
25 of the reserve police force over there to see what had happened because I
1 did not dare to go on my own. As we reached the spot, we found the two
2 young men who had been killed and had been thrown into a pool of water
3 there. And then I managed to pull the two men out on to a meadow. We
4 thought that we were going to be able to find something on them, that they
5 had been killed for some reason, like for self-interest, but they did not
6 really have anything on them.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I wanted to add something else. Since this person with me was a
9 member of the police reserve force, he inquired with his colleagues as to
10 whether they knew who could have killed the two of them and told him that
11 it must have been Raso Milanovic.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play a video, please. This
13 is 2554. It is Prosecution Exhibit P448 from 1.19.01 to 1.19.053.
14 Your Honours, we prepared the transcript of this excerpt, and I
15 will distribute it before we play it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play the excerpt now,
21 [Videotape played]
22 "INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This place is of specific character,
23 which is why it had a specific battle and survival in this war. The
24 beginning of the war happened and we were simply exposed to all the
25 ruthless events. Just before the war I was at the Croatian battlefield.
1 I came to fight in this war, our war, simply as a patriot."
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This will be sufficient.
3 Q. Witness, did you recognise this person? Or rather, did you know
4 him before the war, and if you did, who is it?
5 A. Yes -- it seems to be turned off.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a problem, it seems, with interpretation. I
7 forgot to tell you in the beginning if at any time the reception of the
8 interpretation is faulty or else the level, sound level, is not agreeable
9 to you, please draw our attention straight away and we will rectify the
10 matter. Are you receiving interpretation now?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear the interpreters
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it seems that if there was a problem it
14 has been solved and we can proceed. Thank you.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, I asked you if you used to know this man before the war,
17 and if so, could you tell us who it is.
18 A. This is Raso Milanovic. I used to know him because he was Milo
19 Milanovic's cousin, the SDS president in Kravica.
20 Q. Thank you. Is this the person for whom you said that it was a
21 well-known fact that he killed the two Muslims in Kajici?
22 A. Yes, unfortunately, this is the person. And he was never brought
23 to stand a trial in his entire life.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, we -- because I take it that you would
25 need -- you would be asking to have this transcript tendered into evidence
1 and marked, given a number, but in addition, we haven't yet docketed the
2 map. So the map that has been made use of with this witness until now and
3 which was submitted by the Defence is being marked as Defence Exhibit
4 D908. And the transcript from tape P448 is being marked D909.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the map be left with the
6 witness, please, because we will need it during the testimony.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the witness, please, when he finishes with
8 his testimony, be that today or whenever, in other words, when he is no
9 longer going to refer to that map, I would like him to sign that map and
10 that map will then go into the records and kept under seal. And that's
11 because it will contain his name, so it will remain under seal. Thank
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Related to the excerpt, I had another question. Did you know that
15 Raso Milosevic -- I apologise, Raso Milanovic, was a volunteer at the
16 Croatian battlefield?
17 A. I knew that Raso Milanovic went to the Croatian battlefield as a
18 volunteer, and he confirmed it himself, as we could see.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please kindly ask the usher
20 to put another exhibit before the witness. This is D464.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, is it 464 or 646?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 646.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you get that, usher? Which document are you --
24 646, okay.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a dispatch by the security
1 service centre Tuzla, state security service, dated the 13th of September,
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a objection or what is it?
4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's not in relationship to this
5 document, and that's why I would like to put on the record before we move
6 to the document. I've just had a chance to look at the transcript, and I
7 see that Madam Vidovic's last series of questions was asking whether the
8 witness knew that Raso Milanovic went to the Croatian battlefield as a
9 volunteer. He says, yes, and he confirmed it himself. And I didn't know
10 whether he was referring to a document that's now been marked Defence 909
11 or is this information that comes from a another place. I just wanted
12 that clarified because I don't want to think that it comes from this
13 transcript. Can we please?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: What doesn't -- I see your point. What doesn't come
15 out of the transcript is the volunteer aspect of it. He does say in his
16 interview that -- that that person, Milanovic, that he was at the Croatian
17 battlefield, but that could mean that he was called, conscripted, in other
18 words, and sent there or that he volunteered to go and fight in Croatia.
19 So this is the point.
20 You're assuming that he volunteered, but this does not really
21 result from -- so this is -- is it important, Ms. Sellers, because at the
22 end of the day he fought in Croatia and that's it. Whether he was called
23 in response to a --
24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, with all due respect it might be
25 important. It might be motivations in Croatia that --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not question it. I just asked you whether --
2 because I don't know what you have in your mind in any case.
3 Can we clarify this, Ms. Vidovic, please.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, did you know that Raso -- or whether Raso Milanovic was a
6 volunteer before the war at the Croatian battlefield. Was this known in
7 Kravica and its environs?
8 A. Yes. When people went to the Croatian battlefields, all those who
9 did were volunteers. Nobody left from Kravica mobilised. They all went
10 of their own accord.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you please take a look at the other document.
12 Do you have it before you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I will quote the relevant part. It says: "Connection telephone
15 conversation between Zoric Zdravko, head office, chief of the intelligence
16 service and the minister of internal affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
17 Drago Drakula, inspector of the second directorate of the state security
19 This is a document dated the 13th of September, 1991, and -- thank
20 you. "As a result of carrying out tasks from the plan of operations
21 related to the murder of two persons of Muslim nationality in Konjic,
22 municipality of Bratunac, dated the 3rd of September, 1991, four police
23 officers of the Bratunac Open Security Service," and the names
24 follow, were invited. And Cvjetinovic said that in the ambush next to
25 Kobra was Radenko Milanovic, called Raso, from the municipality of
1 Bratunac and that he was certain that he fired the shots at the vehicle
2 during which the two Muslims were killed, whereas one person was likely
4 My question pertaining to this, Witness, is the following: The
5 contents of the document, does it tally with the information you mentioned
6 you received from the person who attended the crime scene when the bodies
7 were extracted from the body of water?
8 A. This is correct. And this tallies completely with what I heard
9 and saw in Kajici.
10 Q. Based on your knowledge, how many volunteers were there from the
11 area of Kravica in Croatia?
12 A. I can't be specific as to the number, but certainly a lot.
13 Q. Were the Muslims in the nearby villages scared of the events and
14 everything that was taking place? Were they concerned with the fact that
15 people from Kravica were leaving to Croatia to fight?
16 A. Yes. Of course they were scared and concerned. I was concerned
17 as well, and I always thought I would be courageous enough not to
18 experience such feelings. But if I felt that way, one can imagine what
19 children and women felt like.
20 Q. The people who would return from the Croatian front, did they used
21 to tell stories as to what was happening there in Croatia, stories of
22 crimes perhaps?
23 A. When they passed through our villages, they kept saying that they
24 were killing and slaughtering and that they will slice our throats as
25 well. They threatened us, too.
1 Q. You told us that --
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we could now
3 move into private session.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session for a while.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 13799 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you notice any movement of armed people as well as vehicles in
6 the area of Kravica and its environs in 1992, that is, before the
13 Q. Could you tell us when that was.
14 A. That was at the beginning of 1992 and at the end of 1991 as well.
15 Q. Did you, Muslims of that area, have any knowledge as to any
16 military training being conducted in your environs?
17 A. Yes. The Serbs had a training ground or a school above the Bacici
18 dam towards Banjevici. They had a training ground there and one could see
19 that with the naked eye, one could see the soldiers, and shooting was
20 heard all the time. It was terrible.
21 Q. Can you remember when it was, the end of 1991 or beginning of 1992
22 or March of 1992?
23 A. No. That was at the beginning of 1992 and further on.
24 Q. In that period, as of the beginning of 1992 onwards, you mentioned
25 the shooting that you heard. Where did this shooting come from, what
2 A. There were quite a number of Serb villages around Kravica, and one
3 could hear shooting from all of those villages, particularly during night.
4 They didn't hide that. They were firing their weapons from their houses
5 every evening.
6 Q. After the beginning of 1992, if you remember, could one freely
7 move on the roads in the area or whether there were some barricades?
8 A. At the beginning of 1992 one could move in Kravica but without
9 stopping. We were prevented from stopping in the area of the local
10 commune of Kravica.
11 Q. Were there any barricades then in that area?
12 A. The barricades were set up at the end of March next to Sveto's and
13 Milo's houses in Kravica, as well as in Kajici towards the exit to
15 Q. During April and March of 1992, were you able to observe heavy
16 weaponry in your area?
17 A. Yes, and they didn't even try to hide it. At Siljkovici there was
18 a Howitzer as well as an anti-aircraft gun. In Gornji Bacici there was a
19 Howitzer. In Obackici there was a mortar and one could see it with the
20 naked eye. And at Sveto's house there were three APCs and two tanks at
21 all times.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Vidovic. Let's go into private
23 session for a minute. I just want --
24 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, you mentioned on several occasions Sveto's house. Is it
16 at the very beginning of Kravica, at the very entrance?
17 A. Yes. At the beginning of Kravica, this is where Sveto's and
18 Milo's houses are.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would be a
20 good time for a break.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Madam Vidovic.
22 I'm informed that we require -- because of redactions, we require
23 a 30-minute break and not 25. So we will have a 30-minute break.
24 Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic, you may proceed. Thank you.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, my following question has to do with the local population
5 of Kravica. Did you notice in March and April 1992 that something was
6 happening to the population there, namely women and children?
7 A. Yes. At the end of March and in early April, 1992, women and
8 children were bussed over to Serbia, and the only ones remaining in
9 Kravica were the able-bodied men.
10 Q. I will ask you something in connection with Nego and Golub Eric,
11 whom you have already mentioned as having been convicted for war crimes
12 against Muslims. Did you know them well?
13 A. Yes, I knew them well. Once as I was on my way to Bratunac
14 through Kravica I saw Golub Eric wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying
15 a machine-gun. So he was -- this man was always there, regardless of his
16 age, he was always a criminal.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I can imagine.
18 Yes, Ms. Sellers.
19 MS. SELLERS: Right. Your Honour, I would ask that the witness
20 not make conclusions about that, and it didn't seem to be in response to
21 Madam Vidovic's question.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's why I said "I can imagine" because
23 instead of answering his questions he jumped to conclusions, Ms. Vidovic.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I wanted to ask you the following. As you saw these two men, did
1 they have weapons on them?
2 A. Yes. Golub Eric had a weapon and a camouflage uniform.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the usher's assistance
5 now in showing the witness --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because it's not clear in my mind. In
7 answering you -- the previous question -- in answering your previous
8 question, he never mentioned that he saw them together on the same
9 occasion. He said that he knew them well, and in fact at that point in
10 time I was on my feet, almost, already to see -- in case he came up with
11 some information that would reveal his identity. So I was on the lookout
12 for that. But then he just mentioned that he saw that -- Golub Eric
13 only. He never mentioned the other one as yet.
14 So what I would like to know is whether on that occasion when he
15 saw Golub Eric wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying a machine-gun he
16 also saw the other one. And if he didn't, then he can perhaps explain to
17 us how he knew these two persons well, because by seeing one of them
18 wearing a camouflage uniform and walking down the street with a
19 machine-gun doesn't mean that you know that person very well,
20 particularly. All right.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, I will be putting brief questions to you one by one. I
23 have asked you whether you knew these two persons well, the ones that we
24 mentioned earlier.
25 A. Yes. I knew both of them well, but, as I've said, as far as Nego
1 Eric was concerned he was an elderly man and wasn't moving about that
2 often. However, Golub Eric, although an elderly man, was in good shape.
3 I knew him very well because he would attend to some work in my village,
4 therefore I knew him very well.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. This part that he attended to some work
6 in his village, do you want it redacted or do you leave it there? It's up
7 to you, Madam Vidovic, at this stage. I think -- I don't know, I don't
8 want to interfere.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think there is
10 need for that because he used to go to many villages to do some work.
11 Q. Witness, I will ask you a different question now. Did you happen
12 to see the two brothers together on one occasion?
13 A. I am of an advanced age myself. I am not that young, and I used
14 to go to the centre of Kravica even before I went to school there. And of
15 course I used to see them very often.
16 Q. Very well. My question was whether you saw them together in March
17 or April 1992 -- or rather, when you saw them in March or April 1992,
18 whether both of them were armed. That was my question.
19 A. Only Golub Eric was armed, and he wore a camouflage uniform. Nego
20 Eric would not walk around with him because Nego Eric was his senior and
21 they would move around in a car when they did.
22 Q. Very well. That's clear.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the
24 Defence Exhibit D45 to the witness.
25 Your Honour, this is a document by the Bratunac Brigade containing
1 a list of fallen fighters.
2 Q. Witness, please look at page starting with 115.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's page 5 in
5 Q. Have you found it? I will quote under number 115 it is stated
6 Eric, son of Mikailo Bogoljub, born 1914, killed on the 29th of May, 1992.
7 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether Bogoljub Eric, son
8 of Mikailo born in 1914, whether that was the same Golub Eric you were
9 talking about?
10 A. Yes. His actual name is Bogoljub; his nickname is Golub. He got
11 killed upon his return from Obackici when he was on his way to Urkovici.
12 That was on the 29th of May, 1992.
13 Q. And that's near Kravica, is it not?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into
16 private session for a while, please?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,
19 [Private session]
11 Page 13807 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. This is an excerpt from the book entitled "Bloody Christmas in the
19 Village of Kravica."
20 Witness, I will read one section on page 42: "In mid-April a
21 Crisis Staff was formed to which the following persons were appointed:
22 Nedjo Nikolic, chairman; Krsto Cvjetinovic; Radomir, Raso, Milosevic;
23 Bogoljub, Golub, Eric; Jovan Nikolic; Mile Milanovic; Dragan Ilic; Luka
24 Bogdanovic; Slavisa Eric; and Nedeljko T. Nikolic. For safety reasons,
25 the staff dismissed regular classes and turned the school building into a
1 barracks. Special formations were organised."
2 Witness, does this passage that I read out reflect what you saw in
3 Kravica at the time when you went to talk to the person who you've
4 mentioned? Was the school at this point actually a military facility?
5 A. Yes. At that point the school must have been a military facility
6 because on my way out of the new school building, because there was a new
7 and an old school there, one could see soldiers in the old school carrying
8 weapons and ammunition. These were people who were uniformed, and I do
9 believe that the case was indeed as reflected here in this excerpt.
10 Q. What were the uniforms you saw like?
11 A. They were camouflage and olive-drab uniforms.
12 Q. I will now go back to the names I read out. Did you know Nedjo
14 A. Yes. That's Djedura.
15 Q. Raso Milosevic?
16 A. Yes. He was a driver in Vihor.
17 Q. You've already told us that you knew Bogoljub, Golub, Eric. Is
18 that the person born in 1914?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You've also indicated that you knew Jovan Nikolic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was that the headmaster of the school you mentioned?
23 A. Yes. He was the headmaster and a teacher in this elementary
24 school in Kravica.
25 Q. Did you know Mile Milanovic? Was that the person you mentioned as
1 having been elected the president of the SDS?
2 A. Yes, that was the man. He's the son of Sveto Milanovic.
3 Q. Is that the man you said was elected president of the SDS in
4 Kravica on that particular meeting?
5 A. Yes, that's the man.
6 Q. Did you know Dragan Ilic?
7 A. Yes, I did. He was a police officer in Bratunac.
8 Q. Did you know Luka Bogdanovic?
9 A. Yes. He held a higher position compared to Dragan, and he was in
11 Q. When you say "on a higher position," are you referring to a
12 special institution? Where did he work? Special formation.
13 A. Well, he worked at the MUP. I don't know what his formation was,
14 but he was on a position higher than Ilic.
15 Q. Was that MUP in Bratunac?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you know Slavisa Eric?
18 A. Slavisa Eric was a nurse, and that's how I know him very well.
19 Q. Was he also from Kravica?
20 A. Yes. His house was next to the school.
21 Q. I will now quote the second part of the book which was -- which is
22 the last passage on page 42 which says -- can you please find the passage
23 in order to follow.
24 "The hearts of Kravica defenders were especially cheered up by
25 the patriotic and voluntary arrival of active soldiers from the former
1 JNA. Their assistance was necessary and their presence provided
2 additional encouragement in the initial stage of the war. Some of them
3 provided quality and precious military professional assistance, while
4 others took part in organised collection of materiel and technical
5 equipment. Lieutenant Colonel Djordje Nikolic largely contributed to this
7 My question to you in connection with this is as follows: In the
8 area of Konjevic Polje in April 1992, were you aware of the arrival of
9 active-duty soldiers from the former JNA in the area of Kravica?
10 A. Yes, I've described this already. One could see it with the naked
11 eye, although we also had binoculars from the vantage point where I was
12 able to see everything, up from Sandici towards Kravica. One could
13 observe that these were active-duty military personnel. One could observe
14 this also from other vantage points with the naked eye because they did
15 not really conceal their movements.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the
17 witness a document by the command of the 363rd [as interpreted] Motorised
18 Brigade dated 21st April --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you continue, Ms. Vidovic, and before we
20 finish with this document Judge Eser would like to put a question.
21 Go ahead, Judge Eser.
22 JUDGE ESER: Yes. I just wanted to point out that in this
23 document, at least in the English translation, we do not have the full
24 text, the first sentence, the hearts -- what was it called? I don't have
25 it here now. Can you call it up --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know what you mean, the hearts. I will go
2 back myself. "The hearts of Kravica defenders were especially cheered up
3 by the patriotic and voluntary arrival of active soldiers from the former
5 That's page 42, last line, and 43, the first line.
6 That's what you read, Ms. Vidovic. I mean, looking at the
7 document I agree with Judge Eser, I don't see it.
8 JUDGE ESER: It's not in the English translation.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: However, there is something similar. "The patriotic
10 and voluntary arrival of active soldiers from the former JNA, especially
11 cheered up hearts and defenders of Kravica."
12 I think that satisfies it.
13 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead.
15 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Could the usher show the witness this particular document bearing
18 the number 04343871. This is a document by the 336th Motorised Brigade
19 dated 21st April, 1992. This is a brief document that I will quote.
20 "To the command of the 17th Corps. Pursuant to your order,
21 strictly confidential, 11/2-42, of 21st April, 1992, we wish to inform you
22 that we have carried out the ordered resubordination. The following units
23 have been incorporated into TG2. The 1st OKB, Armoured Battalion; the
24 MSMC Mechanised Company of the 2nd OKB of the 453rd Mechanised Brigade;
25 the Milici CTO; the Papraca CTO; one platoon of the Caparda CTO; and the
1 Kravica JNA detachment. Commander Colonel Radovan Tacic."
2 According to your knowledge, in April of 1992, did you notice the
3 movement of soldiers and units of the JNA in the Kravica area and in the
4 general Kravica area?
5 A. Yes. I've already indicated that I noticed active-duty soldiers
6 in the area of Kravica in Obackici, in Gornja Brana, Siljkovici. These
7 are all the areas of Kravica.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be
10 assigned a Defence exhibit number.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, Ms. Vidovic, is being given
12 Defence exhibit -- becoming Defence exhibit D910 and it consists of two
13 pages, one in B/C/S and one in English, with ERN 04343871. Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I have a series of questions to put to you concerning the Muslims
16 from Konjevic Polje.
17 In April 1992, did the Muslims of Konjevic Polje, according to
18 your knowledge, have any weapons? Were they armed?
19 A. If you can -- if you could put it that way, that we were armed, if
20 having a hundred or so rifles means that we were armed. They were mostly
21 hunting rifles and there may have been some automatic or semi-automatic
22 weapons belonging to those who were members of the police. But there were
23 very few as far as I know. Or if someone was able to buy rifles from
24 Serbs. In total, there were about a hundred rifles.
25 Q. Thank you. Just before the war, did some people start producing
1 makeshift weapons at home?
2 A. Yes. Having realised what the preparations were about, we tried
3 to produce rifles that would use hunting ammunition. However, we were not
4 very good at that because the weapons that we produced were more dangerous
5 for the one handling them than the target itself.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into
7 private session now because I have some sensitive questions to put to the
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 13815-13818 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic. We are back in open
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. The people you saw in Sandici and Urkovici, could one call that a
25 village guard?
1 A. One could not, not in any case.
2 Q. The people who came to ask of you to turn over your weapons, were
3 they accompanied by APCs, tanks? Did they have machine-guns or not?
4 A. Yes, I said that they all came there.
5 Q. I understood that you said that you were issued with an ultimatum.
6 A. There was an ultimatum. The weapons we handed over were
7 insufficient for them. It seemed very little, of course, and they gave us
8 the ultimatum that they will return in two days' time to collect the rest.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Yes, Ms. Sellers.
11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's no longer quite as timely as it
12 would have been a couple of seconds ago, but when the witness responded to
13 Madam Vidovic's question regarding: Did they come with APCs and tanks?
14 Did they have machine-guns or not? He said: "Yes, I said that they all
15 came there," and that is not quite responsive. And I just would like to
16 be clear because right now I don't know whether the tanks were there, did
17 the people come in the tanks? And that was the question I was going to
18 ask before we continued.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Sellers. My suspicion is that
20 the witness answered before Ms. Vidovic had even finished her question;
21 that's the problem.
22 And I think you need to put the question again to the witness to
23 make sure that he answers it because he did not answer your question.
24 Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
25 And thank you, Ms. Sellers.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. It is probably an interpretation issue. I am unable to follow
3 both during my examination-in-chief. I asked the witness not whether
4 those people came in those APCs and tanks, but, rather I asked whether the
5 APCs and tanks came as well, together with those people. That was the
6 essence of my question. And the witness said: "Yes, I said that
8 Witness, could you please clarify? Did I interpret your answer
10 A. When you asked me previously I said that to Sandici APCs and tanks
11 came, and there was another tank in Hrncici. Hence, the tanks (redacted)
4 You may proceed. I will sign the redaction form myself. Thank
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. Thank you, Your
8 Q. Witness, based on the behaviour of Jole Nikolic as well as those
9 other people in the APCs and the tanks, were you able to conclude whether
10 they worked in unison or not?
11 A. They acted together, 100 per cent.
12 Q. Thank you. You said they issued an ultimatum. When did they
13 return to Sandici?
14 A. They returned, or rather, attacked Sandici and Urkovici on the
15 29th of May of 1992.
16 Q. Could you describe what was happening on the 29th of May, 1992.
17 A. Yes. In the early morning they attempted to use an APC to go
18 through Sandici, Lolici, Pervani, and Hrncici to link up with Milici.
19 Q. Where did those people come from?
20 A. That APC and its personnel came from Kravica.
21 Q. What did the Muslim population of Sandici and Urkovici do?
22 A. When the APC was moving towards Konjevic Polje, we had a tree that
23 we fell across the road. We thought someone might attack and we put it
24 across -- so it had to slow down and people from the village could open
25 fire at the APC. The personnel jumped out and ran back towards Kravica
1 and the river, and they left the APC behind.
2 Q. Did -- was that the start of a fire or of a combat?
3 A. It was a relatively short combat. The APC was left behind and
4 they ran away.
5 Q. Was there an exchange of fire?
6 A. Only later when the APCs and tanks grouped at Milo Milanovic's
7 house. That's when we saw tanks and APCs coming in as well as infantry,
8 and I believe it was around noon that a fierce attack at Urkovici and
9 Sandici was launched.
10 Q. Where did the attack come from?
11 A. From the direction of Kravica and its hamlets.
12 Q. Can you describe the development of the attack?
13 A. The attack came from three APCs and tanks that came from Lolici
14 and the infantry was standing next to the vehicles. The group from
15 Obackici was headed by Golub Eric and he lost his life there.
16 Q. Was that the elderly man born in 1914?
17 A. Yes, that's the one.
18 Q. Were there any victims on either of the sides on that day?
19 A. Yes. Unfortunately, on both sides there were a number of
21 Q. Did the Serbs pull out their casualties?
22 A. The Serbs pulled out those victims from Kravica, more or less, but
23 they left behind the volunteers, people who came from elsewhere.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. What did you use those battles for? You filled them with gasoline
19 and you put in corn peel and fuses. What did you use it for?
20 A. We had no other option in case of tanks coming through. We were
21 at an elevation and this was our only way to defend. We wanted to throw
22 those bottles at them.
23 Q. So you tried to put those tanks on fire; did I understand
25 A. No. We had a truck that we put on the road as an obstacle and we
1 wanted to set the truck on fire. The tanks try to come across. In any
2 case, we wanted to prevent the APCs and the tanks to come through.
3 Q. The truck that was on fire, did it actually manage to stop the
4 APCs and the tanks?
5 A. Yes. They realised they couldn't get through and they tried to
6 jump out of the APCs to take up positions with their infantry, and then
7 the exchange of fire ensued and we received some help from Konjevic Polje
8 and Hrncici. We had about 50 men who fought to prevent the tanks from
9 coming in.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we put an
11 exhibit before the witness. This is page 189 from the book
12 entitled "Bloody Christmas."
13 Q. I will quote page 189 of the book.
14 "The volunteers killed at the Kravica battlefield."
15 Could you please look at numbers 3, 5, and 6. Miodrag Vorkapic
16 killed on the 29th of May, 1992; Aleksandar Grahovac from Borovo Naselje
17 killed on 29th May, 1992; Zarko Ivanovski from Prilep killed the 29th of
18 May, 1992."
19 I wanted to ask you the following: Were you able to see the
20 bodies or the IDs of those killed on that day in Sandici?
21 A. If I understood properly, those people from Borovo Selo were
22 killed there. And we learned from their documents that they were killed
23 from Croatia, that is, from the Serb Krajina in Croatia.
24 Q. In other words, you saw their documents?
25 A. Yes, they were brought by a neighbour of mine, if I may mention
1 the name.
2 Q. Please don't. Most of those killed whose bodies were not pulled
3 out, where were they from?
4 A. Predominantly from the Serb Krajina in Croatia and from Serbia
5 proper, that is, from Vojvodina, Novi Sad and its environs.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put
7 another document in front of the witness that is from the archive of the
8 Drina Corps. It is entitled "list of persons who died in Sandici."
9 Your Honours, could we please assign an exhibit number to this
10 excerpt from the book.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic. So this document which
12 consists in the Serbo-Croat version of a photocopy of a drawing which
13 seems to be the cover of the book and then two pages -- two pages, one of
14 which is the first page of the book with the title, head, name of the
15 author, and place and date of publishing. And in English three pages
16 corresponding to the original text and being the translation thereof is
17 being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D911.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at this document, list of
20 persons killed at Sandici. The number is 04544259 for the transcript.
21 Please take a look at number 3. Milutin Milosevic, son of Stevo.
22 Did you know this person?
23 A. Yes. Before the war he was the chief of police in Bratunac.
24 Q. Was he in Urkovici or Sandici when the ultimatum for the
25 surrendering of weapons was issued?
1 A. Yes, he was in Sandici.
2 Q. Please take another look at this list. The first 11 people there
3 were killed on the 29th of May in Sandici. Was Sandici a pure Muslim
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. Are all of these people Serbs, the people on this list of those
7 killed? Were those the Serbs who attacked Sandici on that day?
8 A. Yes, they are Serbs.
9 Q. If one were to claim that on that day the Muslims from Sandici
10 were actually attacking Kravica, would that be correct?
11 A. Not in any case.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for another
13 exhibit to be put before the witness. This is a Bratunac Brigade document
14 dated the 26th of March, 1993, entitled "transport of bodily remains of
15 fallen fighters," signed by Lieutenant Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let's give this last document a
17 number, Ms. Vidovic. This was document used with the witness which
18 consists of two pages, one B/C/S, with ERN 04544259, and another page in
19 English being the direct translation thereof with the same ERN number, is
20 being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D912.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, please take a look at the document where it
23 says "transport of bodily remains of fallen fighters."
24 I will quote: "Transport of bodily remains of fighters who were
25 killed on 29 May 1992 in the village of Sandici at the territory of
1 Bratunac Municipal Assembly is hereby approved."
2 Further down, number 44: "Miodrag Vorkapic -- Novo Tenja."
3 Underneath number 46: "Aleksandar" Grahovac -- Borovo Naselje."
4 Could you tell the Trial Chamber where Novo Tenja and
5 Borovo Naselje are?
6 A. Novo Tenja and Borovo Naselje are to be found in the Serbian
7 Krajina in Croatia.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we assign an
9 exhibit number to the document.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Ms. Vidovic. And this document,
11 which consists of two pages, both with ERN 04359358, one being in
12 Serbo-Croat and the other one being the translation thereof into English,
13 is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D913.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the usher's assistance
15 in showing the witness another new document. This is a document by the
16 1st Bratunac Brigade dated 24 March 1993, number 04359361. It's title is,
17 again, "transport of bodily remains."
18 Q. Witness, I will quote this brief document to you.
19 "On the 23rd of March, 1993, the identification of the bodily
20 remains of the fighters who got killed on the 29th of May, 1992, in the
21 village of Sandici, municipality of Bratunac, was carried out, namely,
22 Vesna Krdzalic from Beli Manastir, Dragica Mastikosa from Novi Sad." And,
23 Witness, could you tell the Trial Chamber where the towns of Beli Manastir
24 and Novi Sad are situated?
25 A. Having been in Vojvodina quite often myself, I can tell you that
1 both towns are in Vojvodina, Novi Sad being the capital of Vojvodina.
2 Q. Is that in Serbia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. There are two fallen fighters on this list here who are women.
5 Prior to these events in Sandici, did you learn anything about these women
6 or not?
7 A. Yes, I have. I learned about these women far earlier because
8 there was stories about them having killed people in the Vuk Karadzic
9 school in Bratunac and in Glogova because there was a man who came across
10 the woods there and saw women killing people with knives.
11 Q. What did he tell you? Where did these women commit these murders
12 with knives?
13 A. In Glogova itself.
14 Q. Was Azem present when these women got killed? Did he see their
15 bodies in Sandici?
16 A. Yes. He asked to be accompanied by his neighbour to go over there
17 and see whether he could identify them. However, when he came down there
18 and realised that these were in fact the two women that he had seen in
19 Glogova, he was terribly frightened and even ran away from the spot.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.
21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm clear when he says "was Azem
22 present," was that something that was being suggested to the witness or if
23 that refers to previous testimony.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's a very legitimate question,
25 Ms. Sellers.
1 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I respond? The
3 witness mentioned and probably -- I don't know if it entered --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem as I see it, because I do recall having
5 heard -- although I'm following the transcript in English, I do recall
6 having heard the witness mention the name. So that's probably -- it's a
7 problem of interpretation. But I would rather have the witness address
8 this directly than you, Ms. Vidovic, to deal with it.
9 What I want to know, sir, is how come you just decided to mention
10 this Azem? Has the name been suggested to you by Madam Vidovic? Or had
11 you mentioned the name before Madam Vidovic repeated the name?
12 In other words, who informed you or who spread the rumours that
13 these women had killed people in the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac? Who
14 had told you about this?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told about this by Azem
16 Rizvanovic because he was closer to Bratunac than I was and there was
17 stories there about women killing people in Bratunac. And apparently the
18 same thing happened in Glogova, and he was in the group where the two
19 women were. He managed to escape the group and went across the woods in
20 Ocenovici and reached Urkovici.
21 I was there in Urkovici as he reached the place, and he was so
22 afraid that he wanted all of us to run away from there. However, we
23 convinced him to stay in Urkovici. He in fact stayed until the attack
25 After the attack, he asked to be allowed to go over there to take
1 a look at the women to see if he could recognise them. As he reached
2 Lolici and saw them there, he was so afraid that he fled because he was so
3 afraid of them as if they were still alive.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sellers, shall we close the -- this issue
6 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, that's clear.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I am satisfied.
8 MS. SELLERS: So am I.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And also because I understand a little bit of the
10 language and I do recall having heard him mention the name Azem. No, it's
11 not transcript, but now we have the explanation.
12 MS. SELLERS: Absolutely fine.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I found your intervention very pertinent
14 and very legitimate to start with.
15 Yes, Ms. Vidovic, let's proceed.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to thank Madam Sellers.
17 Could this document please be assigned a number. I'm not sure
18 about the last one.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we haven't assigned a number to it as of yet.
20 This document, which consists of two pages with ERN 04359361, one in B/C/S
21 and one in English, being the direct translation thereof, is being marked
22 as Defence Exhibit D914.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the
24 witness another document, which is issued by the Bratunac Brigade dated
25 2nd January, 1993, bearing the number 04359310, and the title is "the list
1 of women volunteers who volunteered on the 15th of May, 1992, to provide
2 help to the Army of Republika Srpska, that is the Bratunac Brigade."
3 Q. Witness, please take a look at the document. The list starts with
4 the platoon commander, Vladanka Petrovic, and later there are 26 more
6 The text below the list states: "Commander of the women's
7 platoon, Vladanka Petrovic, handed over her duty of platoon commander to
8 Janja Ostojic who was deployed in this brigade and has been there since
9 15 May, 1992. Vladanka Petrovic assumes another duty to meet the needs
10 and obligations of the brigade."
11 Witness, please look at the list first and tell us whether you
12 recognise any of the persons listed herein. Please look at the name under
13 number 3, Nada Milanovic?
14 A. Yes, this person hails from Kravica.
15 Q. Look at number 17, Slavica Kojic?
16 A. Slavica Kojic is from Kajici.
17 Q. Is Kajici also a hamlet of Kravica?
18 A. Yes, it is. Do you find it unusual that the Serb army should have
19 had women as its members? Do you find that unusual?
20 A. Nothing was unusual to us. We knew that whoever was able-bodied,
21 even those of an advanced age, were members of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska.
23 Q. I will move to a different topic now.
24 After the attack on the 29th of May, 1992, did the attacks on
25 Konjevic Polje cease in the course of the summer of 1992 or did they go
2 A. Unfortunately, the attacks on Konjevic Polje continued. They were
3 fiercer and fiercer every day.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic, we haven't given a number to the
5 last document you used, and this document, which consists of two pages,
6 one --
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One in B/C/S and the other one in English with
9 ERN 04359310 is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit D915.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, I was talking about the attacks for which you stated that
12 they continued throughout the summer. Where did these attacks come from
13 most often?
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Do you recall whether in the course of the summer of 1992 you saw
10 any other artillery positions, if any, in the surrounding area?
11 A. Yes. There was a Howitzer and an anti-aircraft machine-gun at
12 Gornji Bacici. There was a mortar there also next to the barn. In
13 Banjevici there was a mortar as well as in Obackici.
14 Q. How were you able to know about these positions?
15 A. One could see them with the naked eye.
16 Q. Witness, you described for us a number of mortar and artillery
17 positions. These pieces, were they positioned within the Serb villages
18 that you mentioned themselves?
19 A. Yes. They were positioned some 20 metres away from the houses,
20 not more than that, next to the villages themselves.
21 Q. Witness, could you describe for the Trial Chamber the position of
22 weapons in Siljkovici, the battery in Siljkovici, where was it exactly
24 A. It was right next to the village, about 20 metres away from the
1 Q. Can you describe in more detail the location of artillery pieces
2 in Gornji Bacici that you also stated to have seen.
3 A. In Gornji Bacici there was a hillock next to a barn where a
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, could you please do your best in avoiding to mention your
21 village, your home, and I will do the same on my part in putting questions
22 to you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into
24 private session for a while?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I think sometimes when you're dealing with
1 these it's better to go and stay in private session for the entire
2 duration of the series of questions dealing with particular events --
3 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.
17 Now we'll have another break which requires at least 30 minutes
18 because of the redactions. Yep. I'm sorry about this, Madam Vidovic and
19 Mr. Wubben, but unfortunately I can't avoid it any further.
20 So we'll have a 30-minute break and then we'll have the last
22 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put
1 another document before the witness. This is the list of persons from
2 military post 2465/5 paid for official troop trip and fee as well as pay
3 for June 1992. The document is from number 01335316 to 01335337.
4 Q. Witness, do you have the list in front of you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you confirm the following. Is the document
7 entitled "Kravica," the title itself on the first page? Can you see that?
8 In the left corner --
9 A. Yes, I see it.
10 Q. I didn't hear your reply.
11 A. Yes, it's there.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the first name on the list,
13 Eric Slavisa. You said you knew people from Kravica.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 13839-13851 redacted. Private session.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of
17 November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.