Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14207

1 Tuesday, 29 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. There is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Good afternoon to you.

10 Mr. Oric, good afternoon. Can you follow the proceedings in your

11 own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon. You may be seated.

15 Appearances, Mr. Wubben?

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and also good afternoon

17 to my learned colleagues of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead

18 counsel for the Prosecution. I'm here together with Ms. Joanne Richardson

19 and our acting case manager, Ms. Sanja Bokulic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. My

23 name is Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear with

24 Mr. Naser Oric. We have with us our assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our

25 CaseMap manager Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 14208

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good afternoon to you, Madam, as well,

2 and your team.

3 I hope there are no preliminaries so that we can proceed with

4 bringing the witness in and try to recover the lost time which I apologise

5 for that. It's not our fault. Neither is it yours. It's just the

6 previous Trial Chamber having had to sit beyond their time limit.

7 Yes, Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, on that subject, we know we are all

9 going to be very pressed for time today. Myself, certainly, I have a lot

10 of material to get through. Yesterday I was 40 minutes. So I have an

11 hour and 50 minutes left. I would be grateful for an indication of the

12 schedule today, so I know when I'll need to finish, when we will be

13 sitting until, breaks, and also to know, or just to be reassured that I

14 will have time for re-examination on top of that period.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We will try to accommodate you both to the maximum

16 even to the expense of not putting questions ourselves unless it is

17 absolutely necessary. That we promise.

18 Have you tried to inquire whether we will have one break or two

19 breaks? If you can find out from the gentleman in particular. It's okay

20 for him. So we could work out with one break of 30 minutes, and that

21 would be at 4.00. It would be at 4.00.

22 So basically, you have ...

23 [Trial chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, an hour, 45 minutes. It will be 4.15.

25 At 4.15. Or whenever you tell me to stop actually. I mean, because at --

Page 14209

1 on this, I wouldn't like to impose anything. But let's work on the

2 assumption that we will have one break.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mustafic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. As with yesterday we need to get through a lot of material quite

11 quickly, so if you could answer in as few words as possible that would be

12 very helpful, firstly. And secondly, I'm going to continue to use the

13 term "your staff" to refer to the Srebrenica municipality Territorial

14 Defence staff in Tuzla as I did yesterday, again to save time. So I hope

15 that's clear.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, yesterday you were telling us how in July 1992 your staff

18 requested to be -- offered to put yourself at the disposal of the Tuzla

19 District Staff. Did Hazim Sadic of the Tuzla District Staff call to you a

20 meeting after he received your request?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. And had you had a meeting with him before then?

23 A. No. It was only after that I met with him.

24 Q. And can you explain why you didn't have a meeting before July

25 1992?

Page 14210

1 A. As I indicated earlier, as of the 22nd of July we were admitted

2 into the TO District Staff and only afterwards did we have meetings which

3 included other Municipal Staffs in the area.

4 Q. And so the meeting with Hazim Sadic, when did that occur?

5 A. Probably a couple of days after the 22nd.

6 Q. Of July 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did you discuss in that meeting with Hazim Sadic?

9 A. In that meeting, Mr. Sadic was interested in knowing, first of

10 all, whether we had any information about the situation in Srebrenica, and

11 about what should the competence of our staff in Tuzla be.

12 Q. What did you understand from that? Did Sadic and the Tuzla

13 District Staff know about the situation in Srebrenica in July 1992, in

14 terms of organs established, staff, what was happening in terms of

15 fighting, or not?

16 A. He most certainly did not, and that is why he thought that we had

17 some information and he wanted us to present at the meeting whatever we

18 knew, which meant that they definitely did not know what was happening in

19 Srebrenica as communications did not function.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. You've answered my next question as the reasons

21 for their ignorance.

22 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown Exhibit P29 now, please.

23 Q. Now, this is dated 28 May 1992. And it says "district staff of

24 Territorial Defence Tuzla." In the top right-hand corner you'll see it

25 says "military secret, confidential." Do you see that?

Page 14211

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I also want to ask you about the top left-hand corner, the

3 stamp refers to the socialistic republic Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you see

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know why they were still using in Tuzla that out-of-date

7 stamp?

8 A. I don't really.

9 Q. That's fine.

10 Now, first, with this exhibit, I want to you look at the map you

11 marked yesterday, which is D945, if the witness could be shown that,

12 please.

13 And do you recall yesterday you marked places on the map which

14 were -- which appeared in a document, which was P236? Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, if that could be placed on the ELMO, please.

18 You've marked Tuzla, Zivinice, Lukavac, Gracanica, Palaca,

19 Gradacac and Banovici, and you told us they were all in the immediate

20 Tuzla area; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Srebrenica was not on that list and so you haven't marked it.

23 I'm going to ask you actually if you can now mark Srebrenica with a

24 different pen, with, for example, a yellow highlighter because I believe

25 you used pink. Thank you.

Page 14212

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to move the map or zoom out.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].


4 Q. Thank you. Now was Srebrenica physically connected to Tuzla at

5 the end of May 1992? Was it possible to -- let me leave it that way.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, does Srebrenica have anything in common with the other places

8 you've marked in pink on that map?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But Srebrenik on the other hand was on the list of yesterday and

11 it's on the map; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, if you could look at P29 and see at the bottom of the list

14 delivered to, do you see that Srebrenik does not appear on that list?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have any explanation for that?

17 A. Probably instead of Srebrenica written herein, there should be

18 Srebrenik.

19 Q. That's a mistake, in other words. It should say Srebrenik on that

20 document?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my objection is this document was

23 not authored by this individual, and for Mr. Jones to ask him if it was a

24 mistake, that -- which is why it wasn't there, I think that this witness

25 isn't competent to answer that question. He can only say what he said

Page 14213

1 before with respect to where Srebrenica is located, et cetera, but as it

2 stands here, I don't think he is the appropriate witness to put that

3 question to.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's an opinion that he is giving. I mean, he was

5 asked why in his opinion Srebrenik does not appear on the list and he is

6 saying that probably it's there but it's -- there is a mistake. It's not

7 Srebrenica, it's Srebrenik.

8 MR. JONES: Precisely that's his opinion. I'm elaborating on his

9 opinion.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: For whatever it's worth. It's his opinion. I mean,

11 that I know he didn't author the document.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: For whatever it's worth indeed, Your Honour,

13 thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

15 MR. JONES: That's the submission on the weight to be given to

16 this evidence. Of course someone who hasn't authored a document can

17 explain why it's a mistake. And I'll demonstrate it further. Could we --

18 Q. In fact, firstly do you have other reason for thinking that this

19 is a mistake, apart from what you've said about Srebrenik not being in

20 that list and Srebrenica appearing there instead? Can you think of any

21 other reason why it would be a mistake for Srebrenica to be listed there

22 in this document dated 28 May 1992?

23 A. The other reason is the very date, 28 May 1992. Because it was on

24 the 22nd July that we were admitted to the District Staff of the

25 Territorial Defence, which shows that at this particular date, this

Page 14214

1 document was not intended for Srebrenica or, rather, for the Srebrenica

2 municipal TO staff.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. JONES: And just to deal with this further, if P29 could be

5 removed from the witness, but we have clean copies of P29 and P236 because

6 we want the witness to mark them. So if he could be passed up -- and I'll

7 show the -- show how I want it passed up -- if you could just put it on

8 the ELMO like this. It's just for the witness because, of course, we've

9 all got our own copies of P29 and P236. If those could be placed on the

10 ELMO in the way that I've given them to the usher.

11 Q. Now what I'm going to ask you to do, Mr. Mustafic, is if you take

12 a pen, just an ordinary writing pen, and I'm going to read if you don't

13 have one -- one is being passed to you -- first I'm going to read from P29

14 and you tic off the places on the document on the right. So, Banovici,

15 Gracanica, you've done Gracanica, Kalesija, Kladanj, Lukovac, Celic,

16 Tuzla, Zivinice. Now, if you could just circle Srebrenik since that's --

17 just circle. Circle it, please.

18 And then working the other way, on the document on the left, if

19 you can do the same exercise, first of all, Banovici, underline it. The

20 document on the left. Left. Banovici, Gracanica, Gradacac, Kalesija,

21 Kladanj, Lukavac, Celic -- my apologies, somehow we have got the same

22 that's the English version. My apologies. There has been a slight

23 mistake. We can -- apologies. That was a mistake.

24 We will start again with P29. If I can see again from the usher,

25 the other document. It's no great disaster. We can correct it. My

Page 14215

1 apologies, I must have -- don't know what I was doing. It's okay. We can

2 resume. I thought there was something fishy there.

3 My apologies also to you, Mr. Mustafic. If we can again get the

4 documents next to each other. Now, yes, I think we are okay now. Now, if

5 you -- reading from the document on the right and I'll ask you to

6 underline the documents on the left, Banovici, on the left again, please.

7 Banovici, Gracanica, Gradacac, Kalesija, Lukavac. Celic is not there so

8 you can skip that. Srebrenik is not there. Tuzla, Zivinice, right.

9 So now I'd like you on that document if you could circle

10 Srebrenica. Then actually to correct now, looking at the document from

11 the right to the left, the document on the right has Celic and Kladanj

12 which do not appear on the document on the left. So if you could circle

13 Kladanj and Celic on the document on your right, please.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Good. Now we've completed that. So as far as the document on the

16 left is concerned, that's P29, that's the odd one out, isn't it,

17 Srebrenica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the document on the left is dated May 1992. If Srebrenica is

20 indeed a mistake and Srebrenik should have been written instead, then the

21 list is identical, is it not, apart from Celic and Kladanj?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you have any explanation for why the municipal TO staff for

24 those two places, Celic and Kladanj, should be mentioned in a document

25 from July 1992 but not in one from May 1992?

Page 14216

1 A. In view of the fact that some of the Municipal Staffs were

2 established at specific time periods, and as they established themselves,

3 so they became members of the district TO staff.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, and in your opinion, with all of what you

5 know from that period, is there any possibility that the document on the

6 left, P29, from the 28th of May 1992, really refers to Srebrenica and not

7 to Srebrenik?

8 A. No. There was no possibility.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, on that subject I'd like to direct your attention

10 to the first paragraph of this document which you have in front of you.

11 And it says: "On the basis of the code of behaviour of soldiers of the

12 TO, Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as our information about

13 faults of the units, improper behaviour and actions in combat of a certain

14 number of TO soldiers in the territory of Tuzla, OKSTO, District Staff,

15 Territorial Defence."

16 Now, if Srebrenik is read for Srebrenica, if those two last

17 letters are wrong, it should be a "k" instead of a "ca," for all those

18 places listed mentioned in this document, were they on the territory of

19 the Tuzla District Staff TO on that date?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But if we read Srebrenica, then there is something odd, since that

22 was not in the territory of the Tuzla District Staff TO; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Srebrenica is not there because the date here is the 10th of

24 July, and I said that it was on the 22nd of July that the Municipal Staff

25 of Srebrenica was established and joined the District Staff in Tuzla.

Page 14217

1 Q. Thanks. Do you know whether later the district of Tuzla was

2 formed and to include Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. JONES: And sorry if the witness could be shown Exhibit D282,

5 Defence Exhibit D282. And this is the Official Gazette, 13th of August,

6 1992.

7 Q. And I want to direct your attention to Article 6, which is on the

8 first page of the Bosnian on the right-hand towards the bottom, 6.6. And

9 English, it's page 2. And do you see there that the Tuzla district with

10 its seat in Tuzla encompassing the municipalities of and Srebrenica is

11 listed there, as well as Srebrenik? Can you confirm that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And does that conform with your understanding of the situation?

14 A. Could you please repeat your question.

15 Q. That's all right. That's fine. I'm finished with that exhibit.

16 Now, was it possible to send documents between Srebrenica and

17 Tuzla after late May 1992?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What contacts did you have with Srebrenica after May 1992, in

20 other words, from June 1992 onwards, what contacts, if any?

21 A. I had several contacts over amateur radio operators.

22 Q. And with whom did you communicate in Srebrenica via the radio

23 amateurs?

24 A. For the most part, I contacted family members and the War

25 Presidency of Srebrenica municipality.

Page 14218

1 Q. Do you remember any of the names of the people of the War

2 Presidency with whom you spoke?

3 A. Yes. Mr. Avdic, Mr. Osman Suljic, and Mr. Fahrudin Salihovic.

4 Q. Did you ever speak to Naser Oric?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And what did you discuss with the War Presidency? What issues on

7 the ham radio?

8 A. We communicated over the radio, so they would mostly inquire after

9 their family members, distant and close relatives, who happened to be in

10 the area, that's to say, on the territory of the Tuzla canton.

11 Q. Was this a regular contact?

12 A. No. They were not regular, but we contacted when necessary.

13 Q. And was the connection made directly to Srebrenica from Tuzla or

14 indirectly?

15 A. No. It was an indirect connection via the radio amateurs in

16 Zivinice and then via the KFOR -- IFOR.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't certain about the last

18 part the witness mentioned.


20 Q. Can you repeat the last thing of what you mentioned? We are

21 talking about 1992, the indirect connection via the radio amateurs in

22 Zivinice, what else did you say about that?

23 A. The only access we had was via a ham radio set in Zivinice, so

24 these ham amateurs in Srebrenica would establish a connection with those

25 in Zivinice and as there was the possibility to place a call from Zivinice

Page 14219

1 to a family that was there, they would join the -- they would take the

2 telephone receiver and try to link up and establish a connection that way.

3 Q. Yes. And what you're talking about the telephone receiver between

4 Zivinice, are you talking about between Zivinice and Tuzla or between

5 Zivinice and Srebrenica?

6 A. Between Zivinice and Tuzla. Since the telephone lines were

7 operational only on the territory of the Tuzla canton.

8 Q. Did you ever transmit military information over the radio

9 amateurs, the ham radio?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. We saw a document earlier today, P29, which stated military

12 secret, confidential, on the top right-hand corner. Did you ever

13 broadcast the contents of documents like that on an open line over the ham

14 radio?

15 A. No, never. These were military secrets, confidential documents.

16 Q. If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P118? This is dated

17 27 July 1992, it's from the District Staff Tuzla, apparently signed by

18 Hazim Sadic. And it says organisation of courier lines of communication

19 order. And given the shortness of time, I'm not going to read this in any

20 detail, apart from the first paragraph: "Courier lines to deliver mail

21 between the Tuzla district OS staff and Municipal Staffs should be

22 organised according to the diagram attached to this order. Courier lines

23 should be organised as follows."

24 And then we see courier line 1, courier line 2, courier line 3.

25 And if we go to number 4, it says: "The following shall ensure

Page 14220

1 that their couriers remain in daily contact with the district OS staff."

2 And there is a list of places and Srebrenica Opstinski Stab Odbrane OS is

3 mentioned there. Does that refer to communication within Tuzla or to

4 Srebrenica as well? To the territory of Srebrenica as well?

5 A. Solely within Tuzla.

6 Q. At this time, in July 1992, how many kilometres of enemy lines lay

7 between Srebrenica and Tuzla?

8 A. 80.

9 Q. Was it an easy journey back and forth between Srebrenica and

10 Tuzla?

11 A. Far from it.

12 Q. And was it even possible for couriers from Srebrenica to remain in

13 daily contact with Tuzla staff, running back and forth across 80

14 kilometres of enemy lines?

15 A. I think that would be a ridiculous thing to say.

16 Q. And what is the Srebrenica Opstinski Stab Odbrane OS referred to

17 in this paragraph? Which staff is it?

18 A. The Municipal Staff with its headquarters in Tuzla.

19 Q. And did your staff in Tuzla directly communicate with couriers in

20 the Tuzla district at this time?

21 A. Yes. It communicated regularly because we were in the immediate

22 vicinity.

23 Q. And how did that in fact work, just on a daily basis? Did people

24 go back and forth between your staff in Rudarska Street in the district

25 centre or what?

Page 14221

1 A. Yes. People went to the district secretariat and the district TO

2 staff to take over the mail and bring it to the headquarters of our

3 Municipal Staff in Tuzla.

4 Q. And to you, when you see the term courier, does that have any

5 special meaning to you, or does it simply refer to a human being using his

6 legs to go back and forth between two or more places?

7 A. A courier in our parts designates a person who went on foot to the

8 institutions I've mentioned and came back.

9 Q. I want to go back for a moment to paragraph 3B of this document

10 where it says, it refers to OS staffs in Bratunac, it says Memici and

11 Zvornik, Sapna village. Do you know where Memici is first of all?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I don't know if you still have the map with you but if so, could

14 you mark it, please, on the map.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Actually with an M, if you could put an M with the pen.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. And at that time, what connection did Memici have with Bratunac?

19 A. At that time, a large number of refugees from Bratunac were

20 accommodated on the territory of Kalesija municipality and specifically in

21 the village of Memici or, rather, in the local commune of Memici which was

22 part of the Tuzla district. That's where they were accommodated and they

23 set up a staff there, and they had communications was Kalesija

24 municipality.

25 Q. Was this a similar setup to your staff in Tuzla but for Bratunac,

Page 14222

1 a staff in Memici for the municipality?

2 A. Yes. The situation was the same. The only difference was that we

3 went to Tuzla and they were in Kalesija.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that exhibit.

5 Now, did there come a time in 1992 when some people arrived in

6 Tuzla from Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. It was towards the end of October, a group of lads arrived from

10 Tuzla.

11 Q. And did anyone bring a letter for you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what was the contents of that letter?

14 A. In that letter, it said that the War Presidency was giving certain

15 rights to a certain number of people in Tuzla to perform certain tasks

16 linked to Srebrenica and the people of Srebrenica.

17 Q. And were you among those people or not?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. And who signed that letter?

20 A. Mr. Avdic, the president of the War Presidency.

21 Q. And do you know whether any of those people tried to go back to

22 Srebrenica afterwards?

23 A. Yes. One of them, Mr. -- the late Salan Mandzic.

24 Q. Sorry, can you repeat the name, please?

25 A. Mr. Salan Mandzic.

Page 14223

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt. Just for

2 clarification for the record, I note there has been reference to people in

3 Tuzla acting on behalf of the people for Srebrenica. Perhaps we can have

4 some information about which people is the -- you know, exactly who Mr.

5 Mandzic is within the context of the people. Just for clarification

6 purposes.

7 MR. JONES: I'll come to that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think it's a [Microphone not

9 activated].

10 MR. JONES: Thank you.

11 Q. Was it just one person who tried to go back to Srebrenica or was

12 it a group of people who tried to return to Srebrenica?

13 A. A group of people.

14 Q. And did they succeed? Did they all succeed in returning to

15 Srebrenica?

16 A. No, they didn't.

17 Q. Why not?

18 A. Because they were killed in the area of --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.


21 Q. Can you repeat the name of the place?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ruzina Voda.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in the area of Han Pijesak.

Page 14224


2 Q. All right. I'm going to come back to that too. But going back to

3 this letter and these representatives, firstly did you then work as a

4 representative for the Srebrenica War Presidency in Tuzla as a result of

5 that letter?

6 A. I didn't understand your question properly.

7 Q. Yes. As a result of receiving that letter, did you work as a

8 representative for the Srebrenica War Presidency but in Tuzla?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did anyone else act as a representative of the Srebrenica War

11 Presidency in Tuzla?

12 A. The list included Mr. Dzemo Hasanovic [phoen].

13 Q. And you also mentioned a Salan Mandzic. Did he act as a

14 representative or not?

15 A. Yes, yes. Salan Mandzic, Dzemo Hasanovic and myself.

16 Q. All right. Now, in fact, due to the shortness of time, I'm not

17 going to pursue their functions in detail. Ms. Richardson can do that in

18 cross-examination.

19 Did you receive instructions, however, from the Srebrenica War

20 Presidency about how to do that job of representing the War Presidency in

21 Tuzla?

22 A. Mostly it all had to do with humanitarian aid for the people who

23 were there, finding accommodation, food, clothing, footwear, and

24 everything else that was necessary for the people who were in Tuzla at the

25 time.

Page 14225

1 Q. But after receiving this letter of appointment, did you after that

2 receive instructions from Srebrenica itself about how to do your job?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And do you know why not, why that was?

5 A. Because there was no opportunity to communicate that to me, since

6 there was no means of communication.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 With the usher's assistance if the witness could please be shown

9 D664? This is a document headed "Murat Efendic, Sarajevo," and then an

10 address and it's re application for SDA membership. And he says: "I

11 hereby apply for membership in your party and give the following personal

12 details." It mentions his birth date and place of birth. And then: "I

13 have been a member of the War Presidency of the Srebrenica Municipal

14 Assembly since 2 September 1992," pursuant to a certain decision.

15 Do you know or did you hear of Murat Efendic being a

16 representative of the Srebrenica War Presidency but based in Sarajevo?

17 A. I know that Murat Efendic for the most part did the same work that

18 I was doing in Tuzla.

19 Q. All right. The last sentence of this document he says: "If you

20 find it appropriate, you may grant me retroactive membership from an

21 earlier date."

22 Now, are you familiar with that phenomenon in Bosnia during the

23 war of people being granted retroactive membership in organs, in this case

24 it's the SDA?

25 A. Unfortunately, it was a constant practice in our part, in relation

Page 14226

1 to many things, including membership in the SDA, membership in the army,

2 and so on.

3 Q. Can you explain a bit more how that happened in the army? I take

4 it you mean the ABiH. Is that something which occurred in relation to

5 Srebrenica, to your knowledge?

6 A. Well, for example, when Srebrenica fell, when it was necessary to

7 prove one's membership in the ABiH, quite simply, the date of joining the

8 army was entered retroactively. The dates and the names of certain units

9 were entered according to the wishes of the person entering them, so I am

10 fully aware of the meaning of the term retroactively.

11 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

12 There's a new exhibit which we will distribute, copies were

13 distributed to the Prosecution yesterday of our new exhibits. It's army

14 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command, dated

15 13 November 1992, Tuzla, instructions for application of the rules of the

16 international law of war in the armed forces of the RBiH, and it's signed

17 2nd Corps commander, Zeljko Knez.

18 Firstly, in fact, did you provide this document to us?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in Bosnian we see the words [B/C/S spoken]. I think we might

21 need to correct the English. What does that mean, [B/C/S spoken]?

22 A. The commander of the Municipal Staff in Tuzla, of Srebrenica in

23 Tuzla.

24 Q. Yes. Does that mean that it was delivered personally to the

25 commander?

Page 14227

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would this document have been delivered through the courier system

3 in Tuzla that you mentioned?

4 A. Probably not.

5 Q. All right. Let me put it this way: Did your staff receive this

6 document in Tuzla?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And was that in your capacity as the Municipal Staff to

9 Territorial Defence for Srebrenica?

10 A. No. For Tuzla.

11 Q. Yes. Sorry, I mean the Srebrenica Municipal Defence Staff which

12 was headquartered in Tuzla.

13 A. In Tuzla, yes.

14 Q. And did you disseminate this to Srebrenica? Did you forward it on

15 to Srebrenica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And can you explain the reason or reasons for why not?

18 A. The reasons are that there was no possibility of doing it.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please, for this

21 document.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the next number, Registrar, please?

23 THE REGISTRAR: D946, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: D946. And this document consists of five pages in

25 Serbo-Croat and the corresponding translation thereof also consisting of

Page 14228

1 five pages.

2 MR. JONES: Thank you.

3 And I'm asking if the witness can be shown Exhibit D667, which is

4 dated 23 January 1993.

5 First I just want to note for the record there is no disagreement,

6 that OPSO, Srebrenica, is written in handwriting on the original.

7 Normally in the English it says "handwritten" but it doesn't in this case.

8 So I mention that.

9 Q. Now, if could you look carefully at this document, Mr. Mustafic

10 and answer this: Was this the same situation as you've already described,

11 in other words, this document being received by your staff in Tuzla, or

12 was it a different situation?

13 A. It was the same. This document was received by our staff in

14 Tuzla.

15 Q. And was it sent to Srebrenica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And was that for the same reasons that you've already mentioned?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. JONES: And in the interests of time, I won't ask the witness

20 to repeat on each occasion why it wasn't forwarded. I've finished with

21 that exhibit.

22 If the witness could be shown Exhibit D674 now, please? And this

23 is dated 22 July 1993, and it says "Decision". My apologies, one moment.

24 Yes. Well, it's forwarded by Commander Hazim Sadic and, yes, below it

25 says decision about a change of the rules of service in the army of the

Page 14229

1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 Q. And again the same question, really: Was this received by your

3 staff in Tuzla or by some other staff when we see that it was sent to OPSO

4 Municipal Defence Staff?

5 A. The Municipal Staff of Srebrenica in Tuzla.

6 Q. And besides these few documents we have looked at, were there

7 other documents and rules which you received from the Tuzla district TO

8 staff and from other organs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And before demilitarisation, did you transfer any of them to

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. No. Had we wanted to, we would not have been able to. There was

13 no possibility.

14 Q. I'm finished with that document.

15 Are you familiar with the packet communication system? Yes, are

16 you familiar with the packet communication, that term?

17 A. Packet communications, yes.

18 Q. When did you become aware of the packet communications system in

19 Tuzla?

20 A. The packet system began to function after the demilitarisation of

21 Srebrenica.

22 Q. And once this system began to function, did you have direct access

23 to it? Were you able to use it whenever you wished?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 14230

1 A. It was within the competence of the command of the 2nd Corps and

2 they issued decisions on when and where someone could use the packet

3 system.

4 Q. Were you able to send long documents through the packet system?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And again why not?

7 A. Probably because the packet system with Srebrenica was difficult

8 to maintain because in Srebrenica there was a shortage of power. The

9 system would often break down. They were unable to get spare parts. So

10 it was only used when absolutely necessary, and the length of the text

11 would be only a few sentences.

12 Q. And did you in fact try to send documents of more than one page to

13 Srebrenica using the packet system?

14 A. We didn't even try, because Srebrenica was a demilitarised zone

15 and communications functioned only for exchanges of information about

16 families, about the situation of people's families, whether they had

17 accommodation, whether they had food to eat and so on.

18 Q. Thank you. Now going back now before demilitarisation, you've

19 told us about this group of people, some of whom at least were killed

20 trying to go back in the Han Pijesak area. Can you tell us first how

21 large the group was which was trying to get to Srebrenica?

22 A. 104.

23 Q. How many were killed?

24 A. 64.

25 Q. If the witness could be shown Exhibit P154, please. This is dated

Page 14231

1 27 November 1992. And it says, again [B/C/S spoken] It's not in English.

2 Do you agree? Do you see on right-hand corner [B/C/S spoken]?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, I think you may also agree that in the Bosnian, we don't

5 actually see the word "telegram" in full but in English it appears as

6 telegram. But supposing the word is indeed telegram, was it possible to

7 send telegrams from or between Tuzla and Srebrenica in November 1992?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now I'm going to read the second paragraph: "You know that a

10 group of defenders from Srebrenica managed to reach the free territory in

11 Tuzla via Vlasenica and Kladanj municipalities a month ago."

12 Pausing there, a month ago would be October 1992. Is this the

13 group that you referred to?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then it says: "The Srebrenica Municipal Staff of the armed forces

16 with headquarters in Tuzla with the help of the command of the 2nd Corps

17 provided equipment and ammunition to the extent that they could, a unit

18 from Srebrenica has been in the Nezuk sector since 3 September 1992 and

19 joined the preparations for a breakthrough on insertion to the free

20 territory of Srebrenica via the Zvornik and Bratunac area," et cetera.

21 Now, firstly, when there is this reference to the Srebrenica

22 Municipal Staff of the armed forces, again, is that your staff?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were you involved in these plans?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14232

1 Q. And then we see the order and it says: "The commands of the

2 OG 4," Operations Group "in Kalesija and the OG 3 in Kladanj and the

3 Srebrenica Municipal Defence Staff will immediately carry out a detailed

4 valuation of the situation in order to urgently find a way of sending

5 certain quantities of ammunitions and PO equipment to the Srebrenica free

6 territory along the axes mentioned."

7 Again, I suppose it's an obvious question, but is this your staff?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now if we turn to the second page and we see that this is to be

10 forwarded to Srebrenica Opstina Stab OS, again your staff?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it's also to be forwarded to the commander of the Srebrenica

13 unit in Nezuk. Do you know who that was?

14 A. Yes. It was a unit that was located in Nezuk.

15 Q. Do you know -- yes, I'll ask actually you to mark that on a map in

16 a moment.

17 Yes, if you could mark Nezuk on the map, please. With an N,

18 please.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Thank you. And do you actually know the name of the person who

21 was the commander much that unit in Nezuk?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer, because I want to avoid any

23 confusion, the witness did mark an N next to a cross or an X that he put

24 at 40 minutes to the -- to Banja Koviljaca and above the previously marked

25 M and K. Thank you.

Page 14233

1 MR. JONES: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, of course. One moment, Mr. Jones.

3 Judge Eser?

4 JUDGE ESER: I just have problems to follow. Did I understand you

5 correctly that you have been involved in drafting this order?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Not the order. I was

7 involved in organising the group that was supposed to go to Srebrenica.

8 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.


10 Q. And do you know the name of the commander of the Srebrenica unit

11 which was in Nezuk?

12 A. Mr. Salih Salihovic.

13 Q. And did he make it to Srebrenica or was he one of the ones that

14 was killed?

15 A. No. He was among those who were killed.

16 Q. Now, at the bottom of page 1 in the English there is a reference

17 to a meeting to be held at the 2nd Corps command on the 1st of December

18 1992, which among others, the Srebrenica Opstinski Stab SO commander was

19 to be present. Were you present at that meeting?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were Salih Salihovic and the commander of OG 4 also present?

22 A. Yes, yes. Mr. Salihovic and Mr. Efendic, the commander of the

23 4th Operations Group.

24 Q. Thank you. Now you've told us that 64 of these people were killed

25 in this group. Were they all fighters or were there other people among

Page 14234

1 them?

2 A. No. Among them were two doctors. They were medical staff.

3 Q. And were they killed or did they survive?

4 A. They were killed.

5 Q. And were you involved in trying to get the bodies retrieved of the

6 killed?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. We have a new exhibit to distribute on that

9 subject. And this is headed Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebrenica SO

10 War Presidency, representative office in Tuzla, Tuzla, 22 November 1994.

11 And it's a report on the exchange in Satorovici of bodies of persons

12 killed and the forensic medical findings.

13 Q. Look at this document. Firstly, did you prepare this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And does this refer to the same group of 64 killed who you

16 mentioned?

17 A. Yes. Through the group for exchange we insisted that an exchange

18 of the bodies of the persons killed at Ruzina Voda be carried out.

19 Q. Was there a pathological report prepared in relation to this?

20 A. Yes. This information was drawn up after the pathological report

21 was drawn up, at Gradina in Tuzla.

22 Q. And what, if anything, did it show about the people who had been

23 killed?

24 A. These people were brought in makeshift wooden coffins. When I

25 insisted that these coffins be opened up to see whether they contained

Page 14235

1 corpses at all, the side of Republika Srpska did not permit the coffins to

2 be opened at first. However, we insisted, and I opened several of the

3 coffins. I saw a horrific sight. The people mostly had their hands tied

4 behind their backs with wire and three of them were without heads. Their

5 heads were missing.

6 Q. And did the fact that -- or did this event and other events have

7 any effect on the willingness of people to try to reach Srebrenica from

8 Tuzla?

9 A. Every such event definitely discouraged people from any such

10 attempts.

11 Q. The Prosecution has suggested and may suggest to you that Naser

12 Oric should have gone to Tuzla before demilitarisation for training. I'll

13 quote what they've said in that regard. "There was, however, for him,

14 Oric, available a training centre in Tuzla. He didn't make use of it.

15 Didn't make use of it."

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm not sure this is an

17 appropriate way to ask a question on cross-examination.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him put the question and answer. [Microphone

19 not activated].

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I know what he's referring to.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: I know. And so do I, Your Honour. But I think

23 the question can be posed with the suggestion without quoting something

24 that the Prosecution --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no suggestion as yet. Let him finish the

Page 14236

1 question and then if it's necessary I will intervene. But he hasn't even

2 finished the question.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. Fine, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Is it a realistic suggestion that Naser Oric should have gone to

7 Tuzla for training? And in case there is any confusion, the suggestion is

8 that Naser Oric could or should have travelled through 80 kilometres of

9 enemy territory, minefields, et cetera, in which you had told us people

10 had been killed, beheaded, to attend a training seminar and then go back

11 the end of it? Is that a realistic suggestion?

12 A. I'm speechless, really.

13 Q. I take it you don't think that that is a realistic suggestion?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's obvious, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.

16 If the witness in fact could be shown Exhibit D673, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't given it a number as yet. This last

18 document that you used with the witness, Judge Eser is drawing my

19 attention that we haven't given it a number as yet.

20 MR. JONES: That's correct.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So this document, which consists of two pages,

22 without an ERN, two pages in Bosnian, Serbo-Croat, and the two pages in

23 English, being a translation of the original, is being tendered and marked

24 as Defence Exhibit D947.

25 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 14237

1 Q. Now, D673 is dated 30 June 1993. And it's army of the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command, Tuzla, 30 June 1993. "In order to

3 realise the direct tasks following from the obligation to respect and

4 ensure the application of the law of war under all conditions, I hereby

5 order..." and then it's for a training seminar to be held, and it's signed

6 Hazim Sadic. Are you aware of the 2nd Corps organising seminars?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when we see at the bottom, to Opstinski Stab, OPSO, does

9 that -- does that relate to your staff in Tuzla?

10 A. Yes. To our staff in Tuzla.

11 Q. And to your knowledge, was this invitation forwarded to

12 Srebrenica?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And did you -- did your staff actually participate in seminars?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You didn't have to go through minefields or enemy territory to get

17 there?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

20 A. However, even so, sometimes it proved difficult.

21 Q. Now, you've mentioned people who came from Srebrenica in October

22 1992 or from that area. Did you speak to him about -- did you speak to

23 them about how fighting was organised, if it was organised, in that area

24 in 1992?

25 A. Yes. I spoke to many people who arrived, especially when they had

Page 14238

1 to be deported in UN trucks where they had to pass the journey on their

2 feet, children, women and elderly alike. They were telling me that the

3 chaos ruled over there. There was -- everything was in total disarray.

4 There was no organisation there, which was the reason why the events

5 unfolded as they did.

6 Q. You mentioned people being deported in UN trucks. Are you aware

7 whether any people died while being so deported?

8 A. Yes. There were so many of them boarded on the trucks that some

9 of them even choked as they were on their way to freedom, toward Tuzla

10 canton. Some of them even suffocated.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Moving to a slightly different area, do you know Edhem Ahmic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know what he was doing in 1992?

15 A. To my knowledge, he was on the Bratunac Municipal Staff based in

16 Tuzla.

17 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown Exhibit D822, please.

18 And this is -- it says on the top Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, armed

19 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Drina division command, and it appears to be

20 signed by the commander of the Drina division, Nurif Rizvanovic.

21 Q. Now, I want you just to peruse this document and see the mention

22 of some names there. There's a Sead Djozic. Do you know the Sead Djozic

23 referred to in this document? It's at number 3.

24 A. Yes. Sead Djozic also worked in the Bratunac Municipal Staff

25 based in Tuzla.

Page 14239

1 Q. And do you know the Kelvedin Djozic referred to in this document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who was he and what was he doing in 1992?

4 A. He was also a member of the staff. He was an active member of the

5 army.

6 Q. When we look at the top of this document it's addressed to Mr.

7 Ahmic. Do you know who that referred to?

8 A. Mr. Edhem Ahmic.

9 Q. All right. This document refers to in one place an order of

10 9 September 1992 and to preparations to go to the free territory by

11 30 September 1992. Does it or does it not seem right to you, also in

12 light of your own knowledge of events mentioned here, whether this

13 document was composed between the 9th and the 30th of September 1992?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not sure if we are now getting

15 into an area of speculation. If what's being asked of this witness is

16 based on the contents, when this letter would have been composed, I think

17 that any answer from the witness at this point is pure speculation. I

18 don't think anything within the context of this letter notwithstanding

19 some dates mentioned when this letter could have been composed.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate your concern, Ms. Richardson, but

21 looking again at the question, is -- what's -- it focuses upon is also in

22 the light of your own knowledge of the events mentioned here. So at that

23 stage, if he can answer the question, he will answer it. If he in

24 answering -- trying to answering it, he believes that he will be just

25 speculating, I don't want an answer from him.

Page 14240

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I appreciate that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I do appreciate your concerns, of course.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Witness, Mr. Mustafic, we don't want speculation

5 from you. I mean, please listen carefully to what Mr. Jones is asking

6 from you and try to answer your question to the best of your ability based

7 on your knowledge. If you are not in a position to answer it, if you're

8 just guessing, then, tell us, "I can only guess, so I prefer not to answer

9 the question." Did I make myself clear? I think --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I did because this is an intelligent

12 witness.

13 MR. JONES: May I say, Your Honour, I'm really making all the my

14 efforts to go quickly, and I deliberately framed the question in light of

15 your own knowledge of events. I couldn't have been clearer, and I think

16 we've wasted two minutes for nothing.

17 Q. I'll approach it in a different way.

18 Do you know Nijaz Dubicic?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 Q. The interpretation wasn't ...

21 Nijaz Dubicic, yes, could you repeat whether you know him?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. Did you ever hear that his brother Mensur died?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know roughly when that was?

Page 14241

1 A. In late September.

2 Q. In which year?

3 A. 1992.

4 Q. In light of your own knowledge and what you know and only on what

5 you know, don't speculate, any idea when this document would have been

6 composed?

7 A. I cannot tell, really.

8 Q. Do you know that Nurif Rizvanovic went to the Bratunac area or

9 not?

10 A. I found that out only once he had already gone.

11 Q. Were you involved in any planning relating to the attempt by Nurif

12 and his men to get into the Bratunac area?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The people we've seen mentioned in this document, Sead Djozic,

15 Kelvedin Djozic, where were they from, what municipality?

16 A. The municipality of Bratunac.

17 Q. And this document we have seen, is it to do with Bratunac or is it

18 to do with other municipalities, in terms of the people -- actually, I'll

19 withdraw that. Let me rephrase it.

20 Was Nurif Rizvanovic's trip anything to do with your staff in

21 Tuzla? Were you involved in that in any way?

22 A. It had nothing to do with it.

23 Q. Incidentally, do you know which municipality the following places

24 are located? Kravica, Jezestica, Bjelovac and Fakovici?

25 A. The municipality of Bratunac.

Page 14242

1 Q. Thank you. Moving to a new subject and new exhibit, actually,

2 sorry, no. It's D656. New exhibit but not a completely new exhibit.

3 This is dated 19 January 1993. It's army of the Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command, 19 January 1993, Tuzla. Do you

5 recall whether you received this document in Tuzla?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And incidently, looking at the B/C/S version, there is a stamp

8 which I think you can see says "Bratunac" in the top right-hand corner, so

9 I'm referring to not this copy but the order itself.

10 A. One cannot really see it clearly.

11 Q. That's fine. It's not important.

12 Did you send your copy of this order on to Srebrenica, on to the

13 free territory of Srebrenica?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And was that for the same reasons as before, or for some other

16 reason?

17 A. For the same reasons as before.

18 Q. Now, this -- right. Let me put it this way: Did you do anything

19 about this order?

20 A. As far as the military police is concerned, we did not have a

21 specific unit of our own and therefore we recruited our soldiers into the

22 military unit of Tuzla in the Buna barracks.

23 Q. So you sent some people along to the district staff; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14243

1 Q. Sorry, 2nd Corps command.

2 Now, the first paragraph refers to a number of places, Bijeljina,

3 Zvornik. Dealing with Bijeljina, did that fall to the Serbs at some

4 stage, and if so, when?

5 A. Bijeljina fell right at the beginning of the war.

6 Q. So whether we see the reference in paragraph 1, the Municipal

7 Defence Staffs, and then a number of places are referred to, including

8 Srebrenica, does this again refer to Municipal Defence Staffs in exile in

9 the Tuzla area?

10 A. Yes. This here contains information about all the Municipal

11 Staffs who were in exile in Tuzla, because the population of the Podrinje

12 area was mostly to be found in the territory of the Tuzla district. It

13 included, among others, those from Bijeljina.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. JONES: Now if you could keep that document, and if the

16 witness could be shown D649, please. And in particular, I'd just like to

17 put the two stamps next to each other on the ELMO. And it's, yes, a

18 question of having the two stamps next to each other.

19 Q. Now, I know you said, Mr. Mustafic, that you had difficulty seeing

20 the -- seeing the stamps.

21 MR. JONES: Would Your Honours just allow me one moment, please.

22 It should be D656 and D649.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not quite sure that the first one is 656. I

24 think it's 646. I stand to be corrected but I have got that impression.

25 MR. JONES: That one is correct. I see, it's a question of the

Page 14244

1 stamp. It's the stamp on the top right-hand corner, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do we have the right documents to start with?

3 MR. JONES: Yes,.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You're happy with that.

5 MR. JONES: There we go. That's what I was after.

6 Q. Now, if you look at those two stamps, would you agree or disagree

7 that they are the same stamp, the same -- the details are obviously

8 different but the same stamp?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And so looking -- you can put D656 to one side and just look at

11 the one on the left, D649, this document dated 29th November 1992, dealing

12 with Bratunac, signed by the chief of the Municipal Staff, Bratunac

13 municipality, is this a staff in the Tuzla area, or is it a staff in the

14 Bratunac free territory?

15 A. In the territory of Tuzla.

16 Q. Thank you. I've finished with those exhibits and we have a new

17 exhibit dated 30 January 1993. This is the number, reference number is

18 13-193, Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Defence, district

19 secretariat of Defence, subject joint meeting to gain insight into the

20 work of the municipal secretariats of Defence in Tuzla district. Did you

21 provide us with this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the contents?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did your staff or not have meetings with the Tuzla District Staff

Page 14245

1 secretariat?

2 A. Yes, it did.

3 Q. And this document appears to be signed by Fuad Hadziavdic. Do you

4 know who that would be?

5 A. Yes. He's the secretary of the secretariat for national defence

6 in the district.

7 Q. All right. On that second page, there is reference to a meeting

8 on the 17th of February 1993 in Zivinice and Srebrenica municipal

9 secretariat of Defence is to attend as well. Did anyone from your staff

10 attend that meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who?

13 A. Mr. Husein Efendic.

14 Q. When did he join your staff?

15 A. Sometime in November.

16 Q. Year, please.

17 A. 1992.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please, for this

20 document.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document which consists of one page in

22 B/C/S and two pages in English, no ERN, is being tendered and is being

23 marked as Defence Exhibit D948.

24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Now if the witness could

25 please be shown D669, Defence Exhibit D669. This is dated 29 April 1993.

Page 14246

1 It's an order - I'm just doing this for the record to save time - "All

2 municipal secretariats that send recruits, conscripts for training to the

3 training centres in Tuzla, Smoluca, and Dubrave ordered to provide a

4 sufficient quantity of meals for their recruits for each day of training."

5 This concerns a training -- obviously it's signed by Fuad Hadziavdic and

6 it's addressed to, among others, all municipal secretariats for defence in

7 the Tuzla district.

8 Q. Do you recall the events described here or the training described

9 here?

10 A. Yes. The recruits had to be provided with clothes, food, and

11 other items which we found very difficult but we had to do it. That's why

12 I know about it.

13 Q. So did your staff send people for this training?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. JONES: Yes, that's sufficient for that document.

17 We have a new exhibit, which is dated 19 May 1993. This next

18 document is Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Tuzla District Assembly, dated

19 19 May 1993, and it says: "With regard to your communication number" --

20 number is given -- "of 16 May 1993, we would like to inform you that as

21 regards the problem of Srebrenica the Presidency of Tuzla District

22 Assembly has so far had contact with Tuzla CSB, the army of the Republic

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command, and Mr. Mirsad Mustafic, who was

24 introduced as the representative of Srebrenica SO in Tuzla. Please inform

25 us whether we will continue to have contact with this gentleman or if you

Page 14247

1 will appoint a new representative."

2 Can you explain what this is about, if you know?

3 A. Practically from the War Presidency of Srebrenica, in view of the

4 fact that there was no communication, they didn't know what the situation

5 was like in Tuzla, and we didn't know what the situation was like in

6 Srebrenica. Under such circumstances, they asked from the president of

7 the Municipal Assembly of the district, Hadzic, to allow them to deal with

8 all the matters relating to Srebrenica, and here it is stated that they

9 have contacts with the CSB in Tuzla, with the command of the 2nd Corps.

10 Q. [Microphone not activated] Sufficiently.

11 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's economise on time. Two pages, one B/C/S, one

13 English, D949.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 The next exhibit will be D677.

16 Q.

17 MR. JONES: Apparently in the English it's been admitted. Here it

18 is stated that they have contacts with the CSB in Tuzla with the command

19 of the 2nd Corps and me.

20 Q. If you can confirm, Mr. Mustafic, that that was part of your

21 answer?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he needs to confirm it. It emerges

23 from the document itself.

24 MR. JONES: That's true, that's true, yes.

25 Q. Now, D677 I think has been distributed to you. Did you provide

Page 14248

1 this document to us?

2 A. I haven't --

3 Q. Do you have document in front of you --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he received interpretation, from what

5 I could guess.


7 Q. It's D677, if you have this document in front of you.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It's simply whether or not you provided this.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And if you're able to, can you explain briefly what this is about?

12 And first of all I think a correction needs to be added in Bosnian it's

13 [B/C/S spoken] rather than [B/C/S spoken]. Perhaps the witness could

14 confirm this and tell us what this is about.

15 A. When the -- when package communications started functioning, there

16 was a number of documents that had to be forwarded from the Tuzla district

17 or, rather, from the Presidency of the Tuzla district, which included

18 among others quite voluminous documents. Since we, those of us in the

19 staff, had no means of communication and were unable to forward any

20 documents, this was mostly done through the command of the 2nd Corps. In

21 view of the fact that the Tuzla district forwarded the documentation to

22 us, and in view of the fact that the documentation was quite voluminous,

23 we were unable to do it on our own and we asked Ms. Seada Palavric, who

24 was secretary of the president of the district, Mr. Izet Hadzic, to use

25 her offices to do so because we thought that she would find it easier to

Page 14249

1 forward the documents, since package communication could not be used for

2 forwarding any voluminous documentation.

3 Q. And did this include gazettes, for example?

4 A. Yes. Precisely. Official Gazettes, anything that had to do with

5 the functioning of the government, of the cantonal authorities and so on.

6 Q. And do you know whether or not Seada Palavric succeeded in

7 delivering the documents to Srebrenica?

8 A. I don't know. I never received any feedback.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. JONES: Your Honour, are we breaking at 4.00; is that

11 correct?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 4.15, 4.20, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: Okay. I'll keep going then.

14 Q. We have a new document, which is dated 21 June 1994. It's the

15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Tuzla District Presidency, subject

16 implementation of the constitution of the Federation of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 And first can you tell us whether or not you provided us with this

19 document?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, the second paragraph reads: "Bearing in mind the fact that

22 both Srebrenica and Bratunac are located in the territory which is

23 temporarily physically cut off from the rest of the free territory of

24 Tuzla district, please start applying the constitution in a manner

25 described in the memorandum attached to this letter, attempting to ensure

Page 14250

1 that five delegates from each of you to the cantonal assembly are actually

2 in a position to participate in the work of that assembly in Tuzla."

3 Again, can you explain what this is all about, if you can,

4 briefly?

5 A. Well, I said that in view of the fact that Srebrenica, Bratunac

6 and Vlasenica municipalities were all part of the Tuzla canton, when

7 selecting the bodies of government or the assembly or the ministry or

8 anything else, and as the territory was physically separated from the free

9 territory of the district, we had to nominate individuals to be appointed

10 to certain posts.

11 Q. And did you propose delegates and the assembly appointed them?

12 A. For the most part, we proposed delegates who were on the territory

13 of the canton, who were physically able to attend the sessions, and the

14 cantonal government made the selection.

15 Q. All right. So have I understood correctly in June 1994 Srebrenica

16 municipality was represented in Tuzla by persons proposed by your staff in

17 Tuzla; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. JONES: I'd ask for an exhibit number, please, for this

21 document.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. This document, which consists of

23 one page in B/C/S, two pages in English, no ERN, is being tendered and

24 filed as Defence Exhibit D950.

25 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Next Exhibit would be D679.

Page 14251

1 Q. Firstly, this is fairly lengthy correspondence, but did you or did

2 you not see this document when you were with us in The Hague?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you recall this correspondence from your own experience?

5 In other words, do you recall the events described here concerning

6 material to be sent to Srebrenica and a question of whether or not it had

7 been received in Srebrenica? Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes. Yes. I remember that. These are the materials connected to

9 the making of a seal and they were to be forwarded to Srebrenica.

10 Q. And was it also a question of Official Gazettes from 1993 and 1994

11 being sent in Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And to your knowledge, can you confirm whether or not the

14 information was received that even by the 24th of March 1995, those

15 materials had not arrived in Srebrenica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, if we go past the first page to the other pages which appear

18 to be signed by it says Brigadier Naser Oric, is it correct, do you know,

19 whether or not Naser Oric was asking for and trying to get stamps and

20 ranks and other items sent to Srebrenica?

21 A. All I know is that I received a document like this one

22 requesting -- with a request for seals to be made and sent to Srebrenica.

23 Q. What did you do about it?

24 A. We made a request to the command of the 2nd Corps to have the

25 seals made, and when the seals had been made we handed them over to

Page 14252

1 Mr. Hasan Muratovic in Dzevanica [phoen]. He was supposed to deliver the

2 seals to Srebrenica.

3 Q. And what was your information about whether he had ever done that?

4 A. We didn't even know anything about that until we received another

5 document telling us that the seals had not arrived, and that we should

6 send them again somehow, and that we should go to the command of the

7 2nd Corps and have them do it and we did that in March. We found the

8 documents that had not been delivered. We handed them over to the command

9 of the 2nd Corps, and I don't know to this day whether those seals ever

10 arrived there.

11 Q. When you say March, what year are you speaking about?

12 A. 1995.

13 Q. Do you know if and when Naser Oric arrived in Tuzla?

14 A. Naser Oric arrived in Tuzla in March 1995.

15 Q. To your knowledge, did they have stamps in Srebrenica in 1992 to

16 1994, the sort of stamps that they were requesting, stamps and seals?

17 A. No. I'm sure they didn't. There wasn't even a place where seals

18 could be made, where stamps could be made. They couldn't even make them.

19 Q. In your system in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from your experience

20 working in unions and in other capacities, would it be permissible for

21 someone just to make stamps and start using them or do you need some sort

22 of authorisation?

23 A. According to the law, both before and after the law [as

24 interpreted], a stamp could be made only if there was a court decision,

25 and pursuant to that, a seal could be made. It could not be made under

Page 14253

1 any other circumstances.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm going to have to move ahead. Do you know

3 Ferid Hodzic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he ever come to Tuzla?

6 A. Yes. Sometime in 1993 he arrived in Tuzla.

7 Q. Did he explain what the situation had been like in his area?

8 A. Yes. The first time I saw and met Ferid Hodzic was when he

9 arrived from Srebrenica, and in Lucavik [phoen] a meeting was held,

10 attended by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. The meeting was attended by other

11 heads of municipalities of the Tuzla district, including us, from

12 Bratunac, Vlasenica and Srebrenica municipality, who were headquartered in

13 Tuzla.

14 Q. And what did he say about the situation?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you put this question. I had

16 noticed Ms. Richardson standing. Yes.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I do regret having to make this

18 objection at this point in time in light of the fact that we are short on

19 time. However, this information that's being elicited from this witness

20 is going outside the summary that we were provided. This is a very

21 important individual whose name we've heard time and time again, and I

22 think it would have been best if the Defence would have notified us

23 yesterday that this witness was prepared to talk about meetings held with

24 this individual who had been in Srebrenica. And at this point, Your

25 Honour, I think this is hampering the Prosecution from conducting a proper

Page 14254

1 examination of this witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

3 Do you have any further questions for the witness on this meeting?

4 MR. JONES: Simply what Ferid Hodzic said about the situation in

5 the region.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In Srebrenica. Yes, go ahead.

7 MR. JONES: Yes.

8 Q. Did he describe what the situation was like in the whole region,

9 Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica?

10 A. Yes, he did. In detail. He described the situation of chaos

11 where there was a shortage of food, medicines, health care, weapons,

12 clothing, footwear and everything else. It was a situation of chaos, and

13 he left for that reason.

14 Q. All right. I won't pursue in light of Ms. Richardson's

15 objections, but I think this is not evidence which we haven't heard

16 before.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Move ahead, but I would suggest that you do exactly

18 as you suggested now.

19 MR. JONES: Yes, I have two -- well, one last exhibit, D859.

20 Q. This concerns an interview allegedly, an interview with General

21 Sead Delic. It's entitled Oric left Srebrenica on his own accord. I

22 simply want to go to page 2 of 5 where having been asked a question,

23 General Delic said the following: "I can only state my opinion. Brigade

24 commanders were not in that group. As far as I know, Naser came on his

25 own accord. No one had invited him. I know for sure that late Ejub

Page 14255

1 Golic, a commander of a battalion, also came with them. He died in the

2 breakthrough through the Serb lines, in order to have his responsibility

3 for several murders in Srebrenica established. I know his case very well.

4 The commander Rasim Delic charged me with deciding whether to send him

5 back or try him here, since there was substantial evidence that he had

6 been implicated in several murders in Srebrenica. Discussed this for a

7 long time and finally decided that his potential crimes do not fall under

8 the statute of limitations, that he would be held responsible for them

9 sooner or later and that the priority at that time was to send him back to

10 Srebrenica."

11 I simply have two questions. Do you know anything about what's

12 described there firstly, about Ejub Golic being returned to Srebrenica?

13 A. Yes. Ejub Golic came to Tuzla, and he was interviewed in the

14 command of the 2nd Corps. But later on, when we attended a meeting

15 attended by Mr. Sead Delic, he ordered that Mr. Golic go to Srebrenica.

16 Q. Thank you. And I think I just have time or one or two more

17 questions. This might seem like a strange question, but you described how

18 you were in Tuzla during the war. Do you know who in December 1992 was

19 eating in the canteen in Srebrenica, if indeed there was a canteen?

20 A. Maybe if Rambo was there, he could have gone from Srebrenica to

21 Tuzla whenever he liked and brought the mail with him.

22 Q. All right. Well, it was, you've told us how dangerous it was to

23 return to -- to go to Srebrenica. Did in fact your father die trying to

24 go back to Srebrenica from Tuzla?

25 A. Yes. He was so anxious to get to Srebrenica. My late father, in

Page 14256

1 his great desire to reach Srebrenica, was killed on the way there.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. JONES: I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No further questions? You've finished

5 or for the time being?

6 MR. JONES: Well, I think my -- I thought my time was up, unless

7 I'm mistaken.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: More or less it is up.

9 MR. JONES: One moment, please. I'm just going to consult.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I would have given you an extra four or five

11 minutes.

12 MR. JONES: In that case, I do have an exhibit which actually I

13 would be grateful. I thought that my time was up.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then do it now, please, so that Ms. Richardson can

15 start with her cross after you have finished completely.

16 MR. JONES: Okay. In that case, if the witness could be shown

17 D300, please.

18 Q. As you can see from the top of this it refers to a tape recording

19 of a session of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, held

20 on 11 August 1995.

21 If we turn to page 4 of the English, we see the president, Alija

22 Izetbegovic, and this is dealing, as you can see, it's after the fall of

23 Srebrenica, and we see President Izetbegovic saying: "Clear answers

24 should be given to these questions because they are constantly repeated.

25 The commander of the division was not inside at the time of the attack.

Page 14257

1 He was taken out for two months. Of course people are asking why he did

2 not come back meanwhile," et cetera.

3 And it says: "We must have an answer to this and a clear one, no

4 matter what that is."

5 And then we see Delic and this -- I don't believe it's in

6 contention but this is actually a different Delic, Rasim Delic, at page 5,

7 and we see the following: "We did what we could. Now it turns out that

8 command and control do not function in this unit. They chose the

9 commander. They said you're going to be an intelligence operative as of

10 tomorrow. The thing is that they are still at the year 1992 level."

11 Now, my question is: You've referred to information you heard

12 about what was happening in Srebrenica from people who were evacuated,

13 from people who came from Srebrenica. Does what is stated there

14 correspond at all to what you learned from them?

15 A. Yes. It does.

16 Q. Okay. We turn a bit further to -- it's the last paragraph at

17 page 7 firstly. And it's Delic and they say talking about Naser Horic

18 firstly, as if they don't in fact know his name.

19 MR. JONES: And there is a correction which I need to make in the

20 English actually, Your Honour, between the English and the B/C/S. In the

21 English it says, talking about Naser Horic, President Naser Horic did

22 not - I repeat this here at the Presidency meeting and the president

23 knows this personally - he did not ask to return by helicopter. In B/C/S

24 it's he asked to return by helicopter. It's a small point but we can --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

Page 14258

1 MR. JONES: It's important to point out, I think.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, of course.

3 MR. JONES: And then we see on the next page, page 8 in English,

4 referring to Naser Horic, or Oric: "However, my information now, when he

5 came here and when the army came, he did not have much influence on his

6 brigade as commander. He was not a commander who had command over the

7 situation in the division. He had command over his own brigade and

8 another one. He had no influence over the others. So the level of

9 military organisation in this area was low. We tried to bring as much

10 influence to bear as we could in writing by orders and summoning all

11 commanders. Regretfully it did not work."

12 Q. And the same question. You've mentioned meetings which you

13 attended. Does this reflect what you heard about the situation in

14 Srebrenica?

15 A. Yes. This is exactly what was said at the meeting which took

16 place immediately after the fall of Srebrenica in the building of the

17 Tuzla canton.

18 Q. And who else was present at that meeting, the one that you

19 attended?

20 A. Among others, there was the president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; the

21 commander, Mr. Rasim Delic; Mr. Sead Delic of the 2nd Corps; Mr. Salih

22 Malkic, the Chief of Staff of the Tuzla CSB; Mr. Hazim Rancic; Mr. Izet

23 Hadzic, the president of the then canton. It was already the Tuzla

24 canton. Many mayors of neighbouring municipalities.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.

Page 14259

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. And we will have a

2 30-minute break. That means we'll start at ten to 4.00 -- 5.00. Ten

3 to 5.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 4.19 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.55 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's start.

7 Before we start, just wanted to confirm that since there was a

8 query from your side, whether we were authorising the defence to reply to

9 your response and whether there would be a right for a rejoinder, the

10 answer is yes to both. They are authorised to reply to your response and

11 you are authorised to file a rejoinder. The same applies to the Rule 92.

12 You've asked whether you could reply to that. Yes, please go ahead.

13 In fact, my opinion, although I haven't consulted Judge

14 Brydensholt on it, that we would rather concentrate more on the Rule 92

15 issue for the time being to know exactly where you stand, and there will

16 be some recommendations to you by our Senior Legal Officer in the meeting

17 on Thursday without, of course, prejudice to the whole matter. It's a

18 suggestion that I asked him to make, along the lines that we adopted in

19 Brdjanin, generally speaking. It was a system that we adopted with

20 exceptions here and exceptions there obviously because we all remained as

21 flexible as we could. But it's just an idea. You will talk about it with

22 Mr. Von Hebel on Thursday. All right? But you have, of course, our

23 authorisation to file replies and rejoinders and so on and so forth.

24 Ms. Richardson.

25 You've got until tomorrow morning and if you need more, even

Page 14260

1 later.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Your Honour, did you say I have

3 until tomorrow morning?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir, my name is Joanne Richardson.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have -- we plan to finish at 6.30, maximum --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: With the caveat that if I am stopped at any time by

10 the gentleman in particular, of course, I will.

11 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. And my calculation is that the

12 Prosecution have until 6.15.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We finish not she has the right to go on until 6.35.

14 She has one hour, 25 minutes, that's all.

15 MR. JONES: Yes, and then re-examination by us.

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mustafic, I apologise for all of the

17 discussion prior to beginning your cross-examination about time but time

18 is a concern, as you've heard, and so I do have a series of questions for

19 you, seeking to clarify your testimony, and in addition, I will be asking

20 you some questions about your familiarity with various individuals from

21 Potocari and Srebrenica.

22 First off, you were shown a document, and that is Defence

23 Exhibit 300, the very last document, and perhaps the usher could assist me

24 by putting this document before the witness.

25 Now, my first question to you is whether or not you'd seen this

Page 14261

1 document prior to your testimony here in The Hague.

2 A. No.

3 Q. I take it you've not had an opportunity to read through this

4 document prior to it being put to you a few minutes ago by Mr. Jones?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, I would direct you to page -- page 5 of the English. I

7 believe it's page 4 of the B/C/S, and please correct me if you can't find

8 it. I'm referring you back to the exact same area that you were asked a

9 series of questions about. And first off, I would ask you to confirm that

10 Mr. Oric was not present at this meeting, that is -- that has been

11 memorialised by this document. As far as you know, he wasn't present?

12 A. At the Presidency meeting? No.

13 Q. Right. And this Presidency meeting, in fact, occurred after the

14 fall of Srebrenica. In fact, it's dated on the 11th of August 1995. If

15 you look at the first page. I apologise I have you going back and forth.

16 A. That's what it says.

17 Q. And would you agree with me that the fall of Srebrenica occurred

18 in July of 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the fall of Srebrenica was particularly important to the

21 entire Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Especially the Presidency in Sarajevo and Mr. Izetbegovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if you would turn as I asked you before to page 4 of the

Page 14262

1 B/C/S, and there is a discussion that occurs prior to what Mr. Delic is

2 being quoted as saying, in fact it may be paraphrasing what he's saying.

3 But there is a reference to Potocari, and if you would look to the section

4 and I would just read the first sentence -- well, it begins, if you find

5 the word "UNPROFOR," I will start with that particular -- just before

6 that. "Perhaps even during the night" --

7 A. A moment, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Give him a chance to find it.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the reference in B/C/S?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe it's on page 4 of the B/C/S.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You said page 4 initially in B/C/S.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Maybe I'm mistaken, but it's ERN 01824955. And

14 it's the top of that page.

15 Q. Do you see that? Okay. Now there is a discussion. Is that --

16 Mr. Mustafic, can you follow? Okay.

17 Now, there is a discussion taking place here --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. In connection to Potocari.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And perhaps I should say that it follows the -- appears to follow

22 the president's remarks from page 4. And it says here: "Then I went on

23 that trip the next day," he's obviously speaking about information that he

24 had received from someone who had been to Srebrenica. "I went on that

25 trip the next day. We were at the assembly when it was reported sometime

Page 14263

1 after noon that the strike had just happened, but then they reported that

2 UNPROFOR had withdrawn to Potocari then after noon that the Serbs were

3 entering Potocari," et cetera.

4 Now, based on your reading of this portion of this document, would

5 you agree that this information is in reference to the events which

6 occurred in 1995 and not events relating to 1992 or 1993?

7 A. Yes. Dating from 1995.

8 Q. Thank you. And now, this portion which follows Mr. Delic's name,

9 it says: "We did what we could. Now it turns out that command and

10 control did not function in this unit."

11 Do you have any idea what unit they are referring to?

12 A. Probably the 8th Operations Group or the 28th Division.

13 Q. Okay. And following that, it says: "They chose the commander.

14 They said you're going to be -- you're going to be an intelligent

15 operative as of tomorrow. The thing is they are still at the year 1992

16 level."

17 Now, having heard or read the rest of this statement, do you agree

18 that this person, Mr. Delic, is not referring to events that occurred in

19 1992 or 1993, but, in fact, he is discussing the events relating to the

20 fall of Srebrenica in 1995?

21 A. It clearly says here that the men said that they were practically

22 at the 1992 level, and he's referring to the entire organisation up there.

23 Q. Yes. But --

24 A. They are referring to the general situation of chaos, that nothing

25 was functioning, the command and control system, nobody obeyed nobody else

Page 14264

1 and that this was the very reason why Srebrenica fell.

2 Q. Right. But they are referring to the fall of Srebrenica in 1995.

3 Would you agree with me that that's what this report and that's what these

4 comments relate to?

5 A. The meeting took place after the fall of Srebrenica. It was in

6 that context that they discussed the fall of Srebrenica. But in this

7 portion, where Mr. Delic spoke, they referred to the situation as it was

8 from the very beginning, that it was a situation of chaos. Nobody knew

9 what the others were doing and that the same thing happened in 1995.

10 Q. But that's not what it says here. That's your own assessment of

11 what's being presented here. Would you agree?

12 A. Yes, yes. My own assessment.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand -- you understand now why I said go

15 ahead to Mr. Jones earlier on when you objected on the basis that it would

16 be pure speculation on the part of the witness.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour. Thank you for that

18 reminder.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


21 Q. Now, I'd like to talk to you about your -- some of the individuals

22 from the Potocari area. I believe you said that you were born in

23 Potocari; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you went to school there?

Page 14265

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So I take it you would be very familiar with most of the people

3 from that area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And prior to -- to -- I'll withdraw the question and rephrase it.

6 Have you heard -- had you heard of Naser Oric prior to going to

7 Tuzla in 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what, if anything, did you know of him?

10 A. As we were born and bred in the same area, in the area of

11 Potocari, I knew him very early on in my childhood.

12 Q. And I take it you knew that he had been a former police -- that he

13 had been a police officer?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was Naser Oric's role in Srebrenica in 1992?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You're asking him as regards prior to his departure

17 on the 16th of April?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I can clarify that.

19 Q. Prior to leaving for Tuzla in April of 1992, what role, if any,

20 did Naser Oric play with respect to what was happening in the area? And I

21 say with respect to what was happening, meaning the conflict.

22 A. In April 1992, the war had not yet started there. Whatever was

23 going on was the same as in any other place in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24 especially in the Podrinje area where we lived. To put it simply, people

25 were frightened, they did not know what was going to happen. Nothing was

Page 14266

1 organised in that period, and nobody knew anything and the people were

2 simply waiting for things to happen.

3 Q. Let me stop you for a moment. You will have to keep your answers

4 brief. If you don't know, just say you don't know. If you need more time

5 to answer, I think that that will not be a problem. But for now, if you

6 could just answer my question.

7 So as far as you know, prior to your leaving, Naser Oric did not

8 playfully role with respect to the conflict in April of 1992? A simple

9 yes or no will do.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, once you arrived in Tuzla, did you hear anything about Naser

12 Oric in the area of Srebrenica, and when I say "hear anything," I mean did

13 you hear anything with respect to any type of role he played in organising

14 the people of Srebrenica?

15 A. I already stated that I was unable to hear anything about it

16 because the telephone lines were down. I was even unable to make contact

17 with my own family. Therefore, I couldn't hear anything.

18 Q. When was the first time you heard any type of information coming

19 out about what was going on in Srebrenica?

20 A. The first time I heard something was when a group arrived from

21 Srebrenica.

22 Q. And when was this?

23 A. That was in late October 1992.

24 Q. And did this group mention or did you hear either from this group

25 or anyone else, that Naser Oric had organised a resistance in the area of

Page 14267

1 Srebrenica?

2 A. There was no organised resistance in the area of Srebrenica.

3 Rather, in some parts, wherever people lived, they would get organised,

4 groups of them, in an attempt to defend themselves from the aggression.

5 In other words, they were defending their own families and properties.

6 Mr. Oric was in the area of Potocari. He was with a group of lads there

7 putting up resistance.

8 Q. And did you hear that he was the leader of this group in Potocari?

9 A. No. Together -- he was together with others.

10 Q. Did you hear if there was a leader of the group?

11 A. Meaning Potocari?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I said that there was a group of people there who got organised.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last sentence.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is important. The interpreters didn't

16 catch up the entire answer.

17 What I have here on the screen is you said, you answered, "I said

18 that there was a group of people there who got organised." And then you

19 said something else, but the interpreters didn't catch the rest of your

20 statement.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said there was nobody appointed

22 leader of the group.


24 Q. Is this what you learned, that actually -- someone actually told

25 you, Mr. Mustafic, there was no one leading the group in Potocari?

Page 14268

1 A. From conversations with those who arrived from there, I learned

2 that there was a group of lads there and that nobody was singled out of

3 them as the leader of the group.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What the witness says and what

6 hasn't been entered clearly in the transcript is that nobody mentioned any

7 leaders of the groups. I believe that's what the witness should clarify.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has clarified it now. I think he has

9 clarified it now.

10 Yes, go ahead Ms. Richardson.

11 Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.


13 Q. And did anyone mention -- I'll rephrase that question.

14 Did you learn that Srebrenica in May of 1992 had been liberated by

15 Muslim fighters?

16 A. We were not receiving almost any information. Whatever

17 information we had we received or, rather, we obtained whilst listening to

18 the Serb media, since there was a media blockade in place.

19 Q. So you didn't learn anything about what was going on in Srebrenica

20 until October of 1992? Is that your testimony?

21 A. Would you please repeat the question?

22 Q. I can repeat the question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already answered you, but if you want to

24 repeat your question, please go ahead.


Page 14269

1 Q. Well, let's go to October of 1992. Is that the first time that

2 you had direct communication with Srebrenica?

3 A. In October 1992.

4 Q. And how was it that you were able to communicate with them?

5 A. Through amateur -- through radio amateurs.

6 Q. So prior to October of 1992, you were not aware that individuals

7 in Srebrenica had been using the amateur radio station to contact family

8 members in Tuzla and the wider area of Srebrenica -- excuse me, of

9 Sarajevo and even outside the country?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where was your office located in Tuzla?

12 A. It was located at Rudarska Street in Tuzla at number 51.

13 Q. Is that the Tuzla -- in the town, the area of Tuzla?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you learn prior to October of 1992, via the Serb radio or

16 anyone else, that Srebrenica had organised a territorial staff, a

17 Territorial Defence?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And I take it you didn't learn that there was a meeting in May

20 1992, where Naser Oric was named a commander of the territorial staff of

21 Srebrenica? Territorial Defence, excuse me, of Srebrenica.

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you know nothing of the other groups that had organised, that

24 were organised in the Srebrenica area, headed by Hakija Meholjic or Akif

25 Ustic or Zulfo Tursunovic? Were you aware that there were other groups

Page 14270

1 that had been organised?

2 A. I said that I didn't know anything during that period, because

3 there was a full blockade in place. The only thing we could hear was

4 through the Serb media.

5 Q. Well, the reason that I'm asking you these questions is so that

6 when you say you don't know anything, it's important for us to establish

7 what the anything you're referring to is so that the information that you

8 are giving us will assist us.

9 So I take it you were not aware that Ramiz -- someone by the name

10 of Ramiz Becirevic had also been a member of the Territorial Defence staff

11 of Srebrenica?

12 A. I've already said that I didn't know anything about Srebrenica,

13 about the setting up of any sort of staff there.

14 Q. Were you aware that the fighters in the area of Srebrenica, or the

15 men who were subordinated to Naser Oric, had been engaging in combat

16 actions in the area of Srebrenica?

17 A. I heard that only through the Serb media, radio and television.

18 Q. So at some point you did hear that Naser Oric was the commander of

19 the Srebrenica forces, and that they were involved in combat action in the

20 area?

21 A. I said that I had only heard that from the Serb media.

22 Q. Well, thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I think I can anticipate what you're

24 saying.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. It's just that in all the previous questions

Page 14271

1 there's no time period being mentioned. The witness is clearly stating

2 that what he heard at the time.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree entirely with you.

4 Perhaps, Ms. Richardson, you can re-address the matter to the

5 witness and I think a simple question would suffice.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you actually hear from time to time on the

8 Serbian radio and at what time frame was this? I mean what time period

9 was this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard over the Serb media that

11 units or, rather, Muslim forces were attacking Serb villages around

12 Srebrenica. This was in the time period of September, October 1992.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And did these radio reports or Serbian

14 media reports mention specifically Naser Oric? If they did, did they

15 specify what role he played and whether he was involved in these attacks?

16 And last question -- I'm trying to help you and to --

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I do appreciate it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Last part would be: Were any of these Serbian

19 villages or villages that were supposedly attacked by the Muslim fighters

20 mentioned?

21 Let's take them one by one. Were the Serbian villages mentioned

22 or not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Some Serb villages around

24 Srebrenica were mentioned.

25 As far as mentioning any names, I said that they mostly used

Page 14272

1 expressions such as Turks, Ustashas were attacking and so on and so

2 forth. So they did not specify any names, be it first or second names.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So do I take it from you that over the Serbian radio

4 the name of Naser Oric was never mentioned in connection with these

5 alleged Muslim attacks?

6 MR. JONES: From what he heard obviously.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. I mean, it's ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I heard, no. Tuzla had no

9 electricity for quite a while, so we were not able to listen to the radio

10 or watch television, that is, any newscasts.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. And in October of 1992, when you were able to make contact with

15 Srebrenica, what if anything -- who did you make contact with? Who did

16 you speak to?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone in particular basically.


19 Q. Yes, anyone in particular.

20 A. I can mention my mother.

21 Q. Did you talk to anyone else?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, just taking you back again to when you -- from the time you

24 left Srebrenica in April to October of 1992, did you learn anything about

25 Srebrenica establishing a War Presidency?

Page 14273

1 A. No.

2 Q. When was the first time you learned that Srebrenica established a

3 War Presidency?

4 A. When I received the letter that was brought over to me by the lads

5 from Srebrenica.

6 Q. Now, prior to that letter being brought over, had you already

7 established an office to represent Srebrenica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And under whose authority did you establish this office?

10 A. Under the authority and the laws of the Tuzla district.

11 Q. And did you register with Tuzla in accordance with the law?

12 A. Yes. We were registered as an association of displaced persons

13 and refugees with the registration court in Tuzla.

14 Q. But were you registered as representing Srebrenica?

15 A. At the time, no. We were only registered as an association of

16 refugees.

17 Q. And so the first time you actually represented Tuzla -- excuse me,

18 Srebrenica, was when you received a letter from Srebrenica?

19 A. No. I represented the interests of the Srebrenica people even

20 earlier on. Of all those people from Srebrenica who happened to be within

21 the Tuzla district at the time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood his testimony on

23 examination-in-chief.

24 Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Just that he had said that he was only registered as

Page 14274

1 representing Srebrenica on a certain date but that he was representing

2 Srebrenica and its interests before then. So it was in my submission a

3 misconstruction of what he had said to suggest.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember exactly what he had said on --

5 MR. JONES: That's fine.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 Q. When did you -- when were you given an office to -- from where you

9 can work, from where you and the other representatives could work?

10 A. As soon as we established the association of refugees.

11 Q. When was this? What time period?

12 A. That was sometime in May 1992.

13 Q. And how many of you -- I believe you said that it was yourself and

14 two other individuals?

15 A. No. The association of refugees was an organisation gathering all

16 the displaced persons and refugees from the area of Srebrenica. I and two

17 other people were mentioned in the letter that we received from Srebrenica

18 that we could represent them.

19 Q. Now, you testified before that you could not communicate with

20 Tuzla -- excuse me, with Srebrenica before October of 1992. And could you

21 tell us how it is that the people in Srebrenica knew to contact yourself

22 and the other individuals to represent them?

23 A. I haven't understood the question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And perhaps if you can straight away tell him what

25 you are referring to.

Page 14275

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He will understand for sure.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll do that.

4 Q. You said you received the letter in October of 1992?



7 Q. From the War Presidency in Srebrenica.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Authorising you to represent the War Presidency.

10 My question is: If you could not communicate with them, with

11 Srebrenica, as you've testified, how is it that the War Presidency in

12 Srebrenica knew to send a letter to you about representing them? How did

13 they learn of you or about you? Why did they contact you versus anyone

14 else?

15 A. First and foremost, they did not make contact with me. They knew

16 I had gone to Tuzla.

17 Q. But they knew you had gone to Tuzla in April; correct?

18 A. Yes. That was when one could leave the area for Tuzla.

19 Q. I take it you were not the only person who left the area for

20 Tuzla?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So my question is: Why did they contact you in particular and not

23 anyone else? Did they learn that you had been working on behalf of the

24 refugees?

25 A. I reiterate they did not make contact with me, but sent an

Page 14276

1 authorisation to me in a letter. Before the war, I was a businessman and

2 I was a representative of the Srebrenica municipality trade union

3 organisation. I had good organisational skills, and I believe that was

4 the reason why my name was in the letter.

5 Q. Fine. Now, at some point, the -- your organisation grew, and that

6 is from yourself and two other individuals. Did you later on have more

7 people working in your office as representatives for Srebrenica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many people did you have working for you between -- working

10 with you as part of the Tuzla office in 1992 up until 1995, July of 1995?

11 A. In that office, in the association of refugees, there were about

12 15 people who were involved and active in order to somehow supply those

13 people with humanitarian aid, meaning food, clothes, footwear and

14 accommodation.

15 Q. And as part of your function, that being a humanitarian effort on

16 their behalf, how many refugees would you say you worked with or worked on

17 behalf of from the Srebrenica area?

18 A. About 3.000 to three and a half thousand.

19 Q. And part of your function, I take it -- well, I'll rephrase the

20 question.

21 Was all of the 3.000 people that you were working on behalf of,

22 were they all entitled to receive benefits such as accommodation, food,

23 et cetera?

24 A. Certainly. But the objective circumstances and the area of the

25 free territory of the canton were such that many were not able to have a

Page 14277

1 roof over their heads. That's why they were put up in various schools, in

2 Mejdan and other institutions.

3 Q. And I take it you worked with the Tuzla authorities to assist them

4 with finding housing, food, et cetera?

5 A. Yes. We had to cooperate with the Tuzla authorities because we

6 were on their territory.

7 Q. And I take it that you at some point, after -- well, I'll rephrase

8 the question.

9 The families that you worked with, the refugees, were they also

10 family members of the fighters or the soldiers from the Srebrenica area?

11 A. For the most part, they were families from Srebrenica

12 municipality. The families of all those who had remained in Srebrenica

13 and been unable to get out for some reason.

14 Q. I understand that. But my question is: Were they also families

15 of individuals who stayed in Srebrenica and had been there fighting or

16 defending Srebrenica? When I say Srebrenica, I mean the entire area, the

17 wider area of Srebrenica.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, your organisation -- I believe you said you had about 15

20 people working between -- from the time you started in 1992 up until 1995.

21 A. This was in the beginning, from 1992 to 1993. Staffs were

22 abolished and then when the War Presidency representative office was

23 registered, I think we had some 18 people doing that job.

24 Q. In 1994, would you say you had more than 18 people? Do you

25 recall?

Page 14278

1 A. I can't recall the exact number. If I were to list their names, I

2 might be able to enumerate them all.

3 Q. Let me assist you by showing you a document.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could have the usher's assistance. This is

5 a new document and it is DA18-3721.

6 While that's being handed out, I will read the title. It

7 says "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Municipal Assembly of Srebrenica,

8 War Presidency, Tuzla Committee, 16 February 1994." And it's by War

9 Presidency, Srebrenica Municipality, Tuzla Committee, Mirsad Mustafic,

10 economist.

11 Q. Mr. Mustafic, could you take a look at this document, and I would

12 ask you if you recall preparing this document on behalf of your -- the

13 Srebrenica municipal office in Tuzla?

14 I should say it lists yourself and 27 or, I should say 26, it

15 numbers a number of individuals, your name is listed as number 1, to 27.

16 Do you recall that? And this document describes the task and the duties

17 of all of the individuals at the office. Would that be -- does this ring

18 a bell? Is this familiar to you? You have to say yes --

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And now is it your testimony that all of these individuals listed

21 here had been working on behalf of the refugees from the Srebrenica

22 office?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just for the record, and please tell me if you agree, that you

25 had drivers, you had someone who worked on the finances. It says,

Page 14279

1 number 8, for instance, Fazlic, SF, worked object on general issues;

2 number 16, Mr. Gadzo, worked on logistics, et cetera. So this would be --

3 if you could confirm that this is some of the tasks that the members of

4 your office engaged in.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if we could have an exhibit number.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Ms. Richardson. What's the next

9 number, please? P...

10 THE REGISTRAR: P600, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which has reference number

12 DA18-3721, consisting of one page in B/C/S and three pages in English,

13 being entered as a Prosecution Exhibit marked as P600.


15 Q. And just so that we can understand the document better, you sent

16 this to the president of the Srebrenica Municipal Assembly, and the

17 purpose that it was sent to the Srebrenica was so that they could give

18 their consent or approve the lists that you provided to them, including

19 yourself, that you were engaging in working on behalf of Srebrenica?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because -- go ahead. I only have the

21 first page in B/C/S, but it seems that it's -- it has a second page which

22 I don't have.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, it does.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So my record entry is not correct. It contains two

25 pages in B/C/S and not one page in B/C/S.

Page 14280

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, that is correct. And in fact

2 if we could have -- if I could have the usher's assistance in giving this

3 document back to the witness so that he can see the second page. If there

4 is no second page, then I will provide it to you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please provide it later. Let's not waste time but

6 please provide it later.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: So he can read from my copy and we'll provide a

8 full set.

9 Q. Mr. Mustafic, I do apologise, but there is a second page. Now,

10 the remarks on the second page, it says that: "We ask you for the sake of

11 the uninterrupted work of the committee to immediately give consent to the

12 proposed list of military conscripts who have worked on the

13 above-mentioned positions from the very first day of -- very first day the

14 committee was formed and send that consent to the district people's

15 defence staff, municipal people defence staff, Tuzla, 2nd Corps command."

16 So my question to you is could you just confirm that you sent this

17 list to Srebrenica so that this would prevent the 2nd Corps from

18 mobilising you and the other individuals? Would that be a correct

19 statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One point of curiosity, why are all the family names

23 or the surnames which end in "ic" with a double C? Is that correct or ...

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may assist, I myself asked this

25 question. It appears that based on the typeset of the computer, that it

Page 14281

1 replaces the diacritics, the [indiscernible], yes. I myself was curious,

2 so I did find out --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to interrupt you, Ms. --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Not at all. It's a legitimate question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But I see that all the time it's double C, double C,

6 double C.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: That's the language, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Mustafic, moving right along, I have another document

9 that I would ask to be placed before you. And this is DA18-3483. It's a

10 new document.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: One moment, Your Honour. In the meantime, I

12 could continue, Your Honour, and we will find the copies.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.


15 Q. Now, in your dealings with Tuzla and in your contact with them to

16 assist you with helping the Srebrenica refugees, did you receive financial

17 support from them by way of money to help the families of the refugees?

18 A. Not from Tuzla, no.

19 Q. So you never received any financial support from Tuzla by way of

20 money?

21 A. No, not from Tuzla.

22 Q. Did you receive any -- did you have contact with Mr. Hazim Sadic

23 about the refugee -- about your work on behalf of the refugees?

24 A. With Hazim Sadic?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 14282

1 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Thank you. Now if I could have the document placed before you,

3 this is a document, I'll read the title, army of Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, 2nd Corps command, hope I'm not talking too fast,

5 Tuzla, 3rd of February, 1994, and it's to the command of the 8th

6 Operational Group in Srebrenica, and it is signed by Hazim Sadic.

7 Now, you testified that you are familiar with Mr. Sadic and you

8 worked with him in Tuzla in your capacity as a representative for

9 Srebrenica.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have you seen this document before? If you could just briefly

12 just take a quick look at it, it discusses a number of matters --?

13 MR. JONES: Could he answer that question first, please. It's

14 important to the question. Has he seen it before.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: [Microphone not activated] if he could look at it

16 while he's describing it.

17 MR. JONES: The question has been asked and he hasn't answered.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him look at it first because it's a rather

19 longish document and deals with more than one thing. And then you ask him

20 whatever you like.

21 When you have finished reading it, Mr. Mustafic, please tell me

22 so.


24 Q. Are you done, Mr. Mustafic? I see you looking up.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14283

1 Q. Thank you. Now, this is the first time you've seen this letter

2 that was sent from Mr. Sabic [phoen] to Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now I'd just like to verify or ask you a couple of questions about

5 the contents of this document. I'll just read from the first paragraph,

6 beginning with the sentence -- well, I'll read from the beginning.

7 In your first document, 3294, dated the 1st of February, 1994, you

8 requested the answer to your document 6791/93 dated 11 of November, 1993

9 in which you ask for help in food and accommodations for 608 soldiers and

10 their families from your area.

11 Now, further on it says: "Without investigating the background

12 and the motives of this request, we are informing you that we sent the

13 answer in the document 11/1297 dated 26 of November, 1993 to the commander

14 Naser Oric on the measures taken not only for those families but also for

15 others for whom you urgently requested."

16 Now my question to you is, at least with respect to this -- first

17 of all, were you aware that they had received a request, Mr. Sabic had

18 received a request from Naser Oric regarding measures on behalf of

19 families?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, with respect to -- I'll go a bit further down. "In your

22 document number 697-1/93 dated 11th November, 1993 you sent us a list of

23 608 soldiers and their families with requests to help them financially and

24 in accommodation within our possibilities."

25 Now, I would turn to the second page that begins with the

Page 14284

1 paragraph "2nd corps command," and without reading through the entire

2 portion of this document, there is a mention of money being given for the

3 families. And it says that a cash advance for July and August 1993. And

4 further down it states on the same day, again a portion of money was paid

5 for 702 families of killed and 343 for families of heavily wounded

6 soldiers. And further down, the second paragraph, this is where you're

7 mentioned, it says: "Your committee in Tuzla was notified of these

8 activities, and they are in possession of the list of families and

9 soldiers having this right and they have received the instruction on how

10 to distribute this money and other, and they only had to visit the family

11 to give them the money."

12 And further down your name is mentioned. "From the sent list of

13 608 names, the majority of people probably has that right, the list was

14 sent by Mirsad Mustafic who had the responsibility to inform us on

15 everything that has been done."

16 My question to you is: Does this information here sound familiar,

17 that a list was provided to the Tuzla authorities containing 600 names, of

18 the 608 names of fighters and their families, of soldiers and their

19 families, and also there is a reference to an amount paid for 702 families

20 of killed and 343 for families of heavily wounded soldiers. Does this

21 information sound familiar to you with respect to what your organisation

22 was doing in cooperation with Tuzla and assisting the refugees?

23 A. Yes. But may I explain in connection with this?

24 Q. Well, I would prefer that -- that's -- I just need a confirmation,

25 and I fear that I'm running out of time, so perhaps Mr. Jones may want

Page 14285

1 to --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I even dispense Mr. Jones from his

3 intervention. Let him explain.

4 But please be as brief as possible. Please.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, very briefly, in connection

7 with funds, in 1993 helicopters were used to transport the wounded from

8 Srebrenica to Tuzla. They were accommodated in hospitals and clinics in

9 Tuzla. When they left the hospitals, we were forced to find them

10 accommodation. After that, in view of the fact that Tuzla had certain

11 legal regulations in place, we started an initiative to create an

12 association to assist disabled fighters and to deal with this kind of

13 work. However, we had to prove everything. We had to prove that they

14 were disabled. We had to have lists. And this list was drawn up by the

15 service of the Disabled Fighters' Protection Association, based on medical

16 opinions from doctors, and then they received certain financial assistance

17 from the government, which, as you see, was given out.


19 Q. And I take it that in order to receive assistance, you -- one had

20 to at least establish where it was that you served in the military, when

21 you served, and I take it this type of information was important to

22 establishing to -- for the person to acquire financial support?

23 A. There were proceedings with witnesses to prove this. There were

24 retroactive things that took place, just so that people would get

25 assistance.

Page 14286

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: It's just an objection to a double question. It's

3 always dangerous when there are two questions about whether you had to

4 something in the military and then whether that was important. It's two

5 separate questions, and there is always a danger that the answer will be a

6 misunderstood. But also, since Ms. Richardson has been

7 using the word "soldiers," which I see in the translation, it's [B/C/S

8 spoken] in the original and the witness has been saying fighters.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for that observation which I am sure

10 Ms. Richardson will take note of. Yes, yes, but it's probably the

11 translation, the wrong translation on the document in any case.

12 Yes, let's move ahead, please.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

14 Q. Did you also receive information from Srebrenica corroborating the

15 involvement of particular fighters so that either they or their families

16 could receive financial assistance in Tuzla?

17 A. No. In a certain period of time, no.

18 Q. All right. So did you ever receive information from Srebrenica

19 which confirmed or gave information that soldiers or fighters or

20 individuals had participated in various attacks, or when they were -- when

21 they became a member of the military?

22 A. No, not as far as I know.

23 Q. And at no time did anyone in Srebrenica contact you on behalf of

24 any of the families of fighters from Srebrenica?

25 A. They contacted me only for me to visit certain families in certain

Page 14287

1 areas and help them with accommodation, food and the rest.

2 Q. And were these families families of fighters? Including families

3 of fighters, I should say.

4 A. They were families that were on the territory of Tuzla

5 municipality, of everyone who was there, including fighters.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if we could have a P number for this

8 document DA18-3483.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Richardson. This document, which

10 consists of two pages in Serbo-Croat and three pages in English, with

11 reference number DA18-38 -- 3483, being tendered and marked as Prosecution

12 Exhibit P601.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. And I would ask the usher's

14 assistance in handing up a new document. And in the interests of time, I

15 will read the title heading from the document. Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Srebrenica Municipal Assembly, War Presidency

17 Committee in Tuzla. And it is dated the 23rd of June, 1995. It is

18 apparently sent to RP department of combat issues Srebrenica. And it is

19 by Mirsad Mustafic, president.

20 Q. Mr. Mustafic, could you take a look at this document. And I would

21 ask if you've seen this document before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, does this confirm what you previously testified to, about the

24 fact that an organisation or at least it was necessary to establish

25 disabled combats and so that they would be able to receive benefits as a

Page 14288

1 result?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if we could give a number to this

4 document.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, to cut it short, this will be P602.

6 Go ahead.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: And just so that, while you still have the

8 document before you. The bottom of the document has an additional

9 sentence or two. One sentence, actually. It appears that there is a note

10 Ibrahim Becirevic, and it says the stations Kenwood, TS 850, serial

11 number, a donation of Muhamed Ikanovic, to Sead and Senad Dubasic [phoen].

12 Q. Did you -- were you sending this information to Mr. Becirevic

13 about communication equipment donated? Do you recall that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if we can -- I'm not sure, did you

17 already assign a number?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 602.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, I take it that you were not the only individual in the office

21 preparing documents? I think we've seen a document that was prepared by

22 another representative in your office.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time, I would ask the

Page 14289

1 usher's assistance with a new document, and that is DA17-1494.

2 Q. And this is army of ABiH, command of 8 Operational Group

3 Srebrenica, Srebrenica classified 03-125, and it is dated the 7th of

4 February, 1995. And it is to Srebrenica Municipality Committee based in

5 Tuzla, attention Mirsad Mustafic, and it is signed by Naser Oric,

6 commander, Brigadier.

7 Now, Mr. Mustafic, do you recall receiving this document from

8 Naser Oric? If you could just take a look at it briefly.

9 A. I don't recall this document.

10 Q. All right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, this document is being entered and

12 marked as P603.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. With respect to the information in the document, do you recall

15 giving information on a Mr. Tihic, Daut -- obviously I'm not pronouncing

16 his name correctly. How is his first name pronounced?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you don't recall giving or receiving or requesting information

19 about this individual?

20 A. I did not request or receive it.

21 Q. And it states that Mr. Tihic is a member of the armed forces of

22 the Biljeg TO, on the 8th of May, 1992. It states where he performed his

23 duty, and also it states that he's no longer an ABiH soldier. Do you know

24 this individual?

25 A. I know the man.

Page 14290

1 Q. And where is he from?

2 A. From the territory of the Srebrenica municipality.

3 Q. It says here that he's from Lijesce?

4 A. Lijesce, yes.

5 Q. Is that in the area of Srebrenica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as far as you know, he was in Srebrenica during 1992 and up

8 until 1993 and 1994?

9 A. He came with the wounded from Srebrenica in 1993.

10 Q. And this is the type of information that one would give if one was

11 seeking to obtain financial assistance as a disabled soldier, isn't it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. What is incorrect about what is stated here?

14 A. I've already said that I didn't see this document or write it.

15 And as for the facts that the document is addressed to Mustafic, well, all

16 the documents were actually addressed personally to Mustafic.

17 Q. I appreciate that. Is what you're telling us is that some

18 documents you just never saw and is this being addressed to you or is

19 there another -- you can answer my first question.

20 Did you see all of the documents coming into your office that were

21 addressed to you?

22 A. I cannot claim with any certainty.

23 Q. Okay. But my question is: I understand that you've never seen

24 this document being sent to you. My question is: Is this the type of

25 information that one would give if you're seeking to get disability as a

Page 14291

1 disabled soldier and financial assistance, accommodation for your family,

2 et cetera? Would they give information of when you joined the military

3 and where you were based in addition to the unit, et cetera? This is

4 important information, I take it?

5 A. I said a bit earlier that as far as -- that we proceeded in such a

6 manner that we would try to find eye-witnesses in Tuzla, then there would

7 be an administrative procedure and we would be proving these matters

8 retroactively. As for this particular document, I've never seen it, I

9 never requested or received it.

10 Q. I understand. Now, from what you know of Mr. Tihic, would you

11 estimate that he was born in 1962? Would that be the correct date of

12 birth, from what you recall, his age?

13 A. I said that I knew Tihic only superficially. I don't know when he

14 was born or where he is, his whereabouts.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to -- the

16 witness to be shown Prosecution's Exhibit 571, and we do have copies.

17 Pardon me. We have a copy, Your Honour, for the ELMO. I apologise. It

18 was not put on the list previously but it's very...

19 MR. JONES: We do need to see it since we don't have it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. I mean, we too. I didn't even know

21 it's --

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can put the English on

23 the ELMO, which is being done by the usher as we speak, and the witness

24 can have -- the particular page that I will be referring the witness to

25 actually is number 44.

Page 14292

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we cannot proceed this

3 way. Our client is entitled to see the document, to see what it is about,

4 and we are also entitled to have the document in the original. And our

5 client in particular has the right to have a copy of it because he passes

6 on instructions to us in relation to that.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour -- Your Honour, if I could have a

8 moment.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Time is running short for you, Ms. Richardson.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: It is, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If you've got more important matters to address, I

12 would suggest you move to more important matters.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: But, Your Honour, the only thing I can say at

14 this point is that I'd ask that judicial notice be taken that number 44 on

15 the list is Mr. Tihic, on this list, that P571, and I think we can move on

16 from that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I mean, I don't think you need the

18 witness to confirm that. If he's on the list, he's on the list. If he

19 isn't, he isn't.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, so I know

21 how much time I have, it's 6.35?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. 6.35 we walk out.

23 MR. JONES: 6.15.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 6.22 because she had one hour, 25 minutes, and

25 we started at 4.57. I'm recalculating everything, Mr. --

Page 14293

1 MS. RICHARDSON: So if you could give me the exact time, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: At 6.22.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, because I thought we had a note here

5 that says --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Only if there is the indulgence of Mr. Jones who --

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, I certainly hope Mr. Jones will indulge us.

8 It's only --

9 MR. JONES: I need to re-examine.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How many time do you need?

11 MR. JONES: Ten minutes at least at this point, yes.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Richardson, and try to restrict

14 yourself to what is really important.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: The next document, Your Honour, is -- it's a new

16 document. It's 04118030 to 8031.

17 Q. Now, just in the interests of time, this document is entitled Army

18 of BiH Republic, command of the 8 Operational Group Srebrenica, Committee

19 of Srebrenica Municipality in Tuzla, and it is sent to Mr. Mirsad

20 Mustafic. The relevant portion it's -- that I will read -- I'll just wait

21 for a moment so the witness can have the document before him.

22 This is a certificate and it involves Mr. Nirzad Karamujic, born

23 in Bratunac, resided in Burak [phoen], has been a member of the ABiH since

24 the 6th of August, 1992, and that he's a winner of the Golden Lily. And

25 it is signed commander, 280 IBLB, Potocari, Major Ibrahim Mustafic.

Page 14294

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mandic, I have.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry. Thank you, Your Honour, Mandic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mandic, yes.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. And, Your Honour, I would --

5 Q. Mr. Mustafic, do you recall this information being sent to you by

6 Mr. Mandic from Srebrenica or from Potocari?

7 A. I can't find that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the second -- the document deals with two

9 persons, Mr. Mustafic. It's not the first one, who is Bektic Arif, but

10 it's the second, the second certificate, which refers to Mirsad Karamujic,

11 son of Ahmo. Did you find it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


14 Q. Do you recall this information being sent to you, the certificate

15 being sent to you, by Mr. Mandic regarding Mr. Karamujic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. This particular certificate, no.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I could have a P number, and I

20 will be asking the usher's assistance.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become Exhibit P604.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: And I will be distributing ERN number 03425951

23 and 03425949, which is the B/C/S, and perhaps we can take notice, judicial

24 notice, of the fact that Mr. Karamujic is mentioned here in this document

25 as having received the Golden Lily.

Page 14295

1 MR. JONES: I don't know about judicial notice, Your Honour. If

2 it's merely a submission, that's one thing.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It is a submission. Basically we can look at the

4 documents and we don't need to take judicial notice of it. If it's there,

5 it's there. If it's not, it's not.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of this series of questions,

8 Ms. Richardson?

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, the relevance is that we

10 have --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you trying to prove actually?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we have put documents before other

13 witnesses regarding proposed commendations, and the Defence has always

14 asserted that none of the individuals either proposed or out of Srebrenica

15 had received any commendations or awards, and that is the --

16 MR. JONES: That's a mischaracterisation of our position. We

17 never took such an extreme position, I'm sure.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, based on the questions that have been --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's -- so these are two

20 documents or one document?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's one document, one is in

22 English, the translation, and it's from a book, it's from the same book,

23 monograph, Golden Lily, are BiH army members decorated in 1992 to 1995.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So these two pages in B/C/S, two pages in English

25 together are being entered as P605. All right.

Page 14296

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the next document, it's DA17-7404.

2 And also document ERN 02115198.

3 Q. Now, in the interests of time again I will read, Army of the BiH

4 Republic and of the 8 Operational Group Srebrenica. It's dated 18th of

5 January, 1995, Srebrenica Municipality Committee in Tuzla, and it's

6 attention Mirsad Mustafic and it is signed by Naser Oric.

7 Mr. Mustafic, as you look at this document, do you recall

8 receiving information from Naser Oric about Mr. Enes Ibrahimovic, who was

9 born in Sapotnik and who was a member of the 284th East Bosnia Light

10 Brigade performing the duty of assistant Chief of Staff for operations and

11 training. The document goes on to list additional information about his

12 military service. And I'm also handing up ERN 02115198, and this is --

13 the document is entitled the 284 East Bosnia Light Brigade.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: And with respect to the second document, Your

15 Honour, it just confirms or just, I should say, has the name Ibrahim

16 Ibrahimovic of the 284 command, brigade command, and his name is listed

17 there.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection if we combine them together, or do you

19 want to keep them separate?

20 MR. JONES: No objection, Your Honour. I can't -- I honestly

21 can't follow at this point but --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I honestly can't see the relevance why we continue

23 going on with this if there are more important matters to address.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we are establishing that various

25 individuals and their background and whether they are a member of the

Page 14297

1 armed forces.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So these two documents together will

3 become P606. All right?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now --

6 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the witness didn't answer a single

7 question on this document. It's just been tendered without --

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I asked him --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: He has been asked whether -- whether he recalls

10 having ever received this document from the -- from Mr. Oric. Yes, I

11 think you are right. I don't think we have -- at least on record.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, he may not have answered. I

13 apologise.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think I can see in the transcript his

15 answer.

16 Do you recall having ever received the last document that we

17 showed you about Enes Ibrahimovic, son of Nezir?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't remember.


20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, moving right along. I'd ask that

21 another document be put to the witness. It's 01839572.

22 Q. Mr. Mustafic, I understand that you [Microphone not activated]?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

25 Q. I understand that you are familiar with individuals who are from

Page 14298

1 the Potocari area.

2 My question is: If you could just confirm whether Ekrem Malagic

3 is -- excuse me, I'll rephrase that.

4 Number 32 on the list, Fehim Salihovic, Hadzet Salihovic. Do you

5 recall those individuals being from Potocari?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what about Kemal Mustafic? Is that a relative or do you know

8 if he's from the Potocari area? He is number 39.

9 A. Which Mustafic? Kemal?

10 Q. Number --

11 A. Kemal. Kemal Mustafic. Yes, he's from Potocari, yes.

12 Q. And Mirsad Halilovic as well?

13 A. I don't know any Mirsad. I know Mirzet.

14 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with that individual as being from

15 the Potocari area or from Pale area?

16 A. I said that all these people were from Potocari. We grew up

17 together, and it's such a small area that everybody knew everybody else.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would ask for the Court -- the

19 Trial Chamber to issue a P number for this exhibit.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will become, Ms. Richardson, P607. I'm

21 not describing it, not to deprive of you useful time.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, go ahead. How many minutes do you need?

24 MR. JONES: I need ten minutes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 14299

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We can grant you ex gratia another five

3 minutes.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I am much, much obliged.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, that means that Mr. Jones will have the

6 entire ten minutes and we'll finish there.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. And, Your Honour, again, there is

8 just a -- whether we term it judicial -- ask for judicial notice or

9 submission, with reference to number --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Richardson, and put your questions.

11 Forget just -- just file the document and we'll take notice of it.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm informing you of the document, Your Honour,

13 so I don't have to put it to the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is it?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: It's P596. And this individual number 32,

16 Salihovic, Fehim, appears on P96. He's number 43.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't even found it here. I mean, let's move.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. Okay.


21 Q. Mr. Mustafic, you testified that you had, at the request of

22 Srebrenica, made seals on their behalf. Having -- not having been in

23 Srebrenica, do you know whether or not facilities existed or whether or

24 not there were any seals in the -- in Srebrenica?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that question upon a specific request

Page 14300

1 earlier on, and he said that there was no way they could have those or

2 make them in Srebrenica.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have a new exhibit, and it's

4 03720948. And this document is entitled Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

5 Srebrenica staff of the armed forces, list of staff members and members of

6 the Intervention Platoon to receive meals in the people's kitchen.

7 Q. I would ask you to look at this list and specifically -- you may

8 know more than one person here. But number 16, Ismet Mustafic. Is that

9 someone that you know?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about number 27, Ekrem Malagic. Someone from the Potocari

12 area?

13 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.

14 Q. All right. And what about number 35, Kemal Mehmedovic?

15 A. Yes. I know him.

16 Q. And he's from the Potocari area?

17 A. He's from Pale.

18 Q. Okay. And, of course, you know Mr. Oric, who is number 1 on the

19 list.

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if we could have a P number

22 assigned.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be P608. And your next and last

24 question, Ms. Richardson.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. I have a new document, Your

Page 14301

1 Honour it's 083 -- excuse me, 037220834. This document is entitled

2 Potocari report to the military police commander, 14 August 1992, military

3 police performed the following duties.

4 Q. My question to you, sir, as you read the name of the person who

5 prepared the document, Sead Ademovic. Is that someone that you're

6 familiar with from the Potocari area?

7 A. I don't know. I don't know this document.

8 Q. I understand you wouldn't know --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not the document. It's the man. The

10 individual Sead Ademovic, do you know that man as someone from Potocari?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the man.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other one, Musa Zukic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Him either.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: A P number.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will become P609, and that's the end of

16 it.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Ms. Richardson, for your

19 cooperation.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: And I have until when?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You have got your ten minutes plus a couple of

24 minutes more, if you need them, but let's try and send the staff that have

25 been so cooperative with us home as early as we can.

Page 14302

1 MR. JONES: Yes, I'll do my best.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:

3 Q. Now, Mr. Mustafic, you were asked earlier about what you heard

4 from Serb media, from the Serb radio when were you in Tuzla. I want to

5 ask you this: Before the war, in the run-up to the war, did you hear

6 things being said by the Serb media about events?

7 A. Before the war?

8 Q. Yes. Let me put it this way: Listening to the Serb media, and

9 not just when were you in Tuzla, but at any time in the run-up to the war,

10 did you ever hear what might be called propaganda?

11 A. But of course. Serb media were in actual fact propaganda.

12 Q. So when you heard on the Serb media that there had been attacks by

13 Muslim forces on Serb villages around Srebrenica, is that something you

14 regarded as solid, reliable information, or did you regard it otherwise?

15 A. It always turned out especially during the war that whatever Serb

16 media reported, the exact opposite happened, that they were unarmed, that

17 they were getting killed and so on and so forth. I believe I've made

18 myself clear.

19 Q. Yes, you have.

20 Now, you were also asked -- you were asked about your association

21 and about registering the association. As far as your staff is concerned,

22 is a staff something which you would actually register with a court or is

23 it not a legal entity of that type?

24 A. This was only an officially -- a registered association. It was a

25 document which did not contain any names, but it made it possible for you

Page 14303

1 to act within a certain area.

2 Q. Right. My question was slightly different, but if you could

3 answer this, really, when did you establish your staff, the Srebrenica

4 Municipal Defence Staff in Tuzla? When did you actually start operating?

5 A. We actually started operating on the 22nd of July.

6 Q. And from that moment on, did you have the proper authorisation and

7 legal capacity to do that act or were you acting in any way unlawfully?

8 A. Since the staff was established under the orders of the 2nd Corps,

9 we operated quite lawfully. However, in addition to its regular duties,

10 including keeping records, the association had to also provide assistance

11 to the population that was in the area.

12 Q. Right. Thank you. And I think when you said the staff was

13 established under the orders of the 2nd Corps, did you mean the 2nd Corps

14 or the Tuzla District Staff?

15 A. Yes, yes. At the time, it was the district staff. Later on, the

16 2nd Corps.

17 Q. All right. You were also asked how Srebrenica, people in

18 Srebrenica, might have known that you existed in Tuzla in 1992 and you

19 explained somewhat. Did you know whether in 1992 refugees in Tuzla were

20 managing to contact their relatives in Srebrenica through the ham radio?

21 A. Whether some of them managed, I don't know, but it was quite

22 difficult, and I believe actually it was impossible.

23 Q. All right. Now, you were shown -- actually, sorry, one more

24 question on that.

25 Do you know whether possibly information drifted back to

Page 14304

1 Srebrenica about the fact that there was an association which was helping

2 refugees and that you were involved with that association?

3 A. I don't believe they could have.

4 Q. Fair enough. You've been shown a lot of exhibits today from the

5 Prosecution, in the last ten minutes particularly. We have seen a number

6 of documents which you'll recall were -- they looked like they had been

7 produced by a computer. They weren't actually signed. Do you recall

8 seeing a series of documents of that description?

9 A. A number of documents I saw did not have a stamp. These were

10 simply telegrams showing when they were received [as interpreted].

11 Q. Well, that's my question. Would any of these documents, and we

12 can go through some of them, do you know actually for a fact whether or

13 not they were sent or received by anybody? Is that actually for any of

14 the documents you were shown by the Prosecution, can you confirm that they

15 were in fact sent or received?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I just may just briefly, I think

17 there might be some confusion, if a particular document isn't identified

18 since I've shown him a number of documents.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it would be better if you identify

20 which documents you're referring to the witness to, Mr. Jones. I think

21 Ms. Richardson is -- has got a valid point there.

22 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to draw your

24 attention to an error in the interpretation. The witness said that a

25 number of documents I saw did not have stamps. These were telegrams which

Page 14305

1 did not have any evidence as to when they were received. So it was in the

2 negative. The word they do not show is missing.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, it's exactly the opposite of what it

4 says in the statement, in the transcript, but in the transcript it says

5 these were simply telegrams showing when they were received.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's the opposite. You're saying that he said --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] He said quite the opposite, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can verify with the witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste more time on this.

13 Mr. Jones, go straight to whichever document.

14 MR. JONES: That's the thing. If the witness could be shown, if

15 he could have the pile of all the documents, P600 to -- I think the last

16 one was 609. 609. I have quick questions on each of them.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 609 couldn't have been a telegram, because it's

18 handwritten.

19 MR. JONES: Yes. But I just prefer that he has all the exhibits

20 in front of him.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

22 MR. JONES: We will take it one at a time.

23 Q. This first one, P600, are you able to say whether there was sent

24 to Srebrenica free territory or not? It's P600.

25 Yes, can you tell whether that was sent to Srebrenica free

Page 14306

1 territory or not on that date or around that date or at any time?

2 A. The documents that we sent and that the 2nd Corps received and

3 sent because communications were exclusively through the 2nd Corps bore

4 certain stamps. They had stamps for documents to be sent and other stamps

5 for documents received, showing when they were received. On these

6 documents, there are no stamps showing that this was actually sent. It's

7 possible that they were supposed to be sent but no evidence that they were

8 actually sent, and there are more such documents among the ones I saw.

9 Q. Yes. Does that also apply to P601, that you can say nothing about

10 whether the document was actually sent or received because of the absence

11 of stamps?

12 A. I can't say because there are no stamps. There is no evidence.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to stop you, Mr. Jones, from proceeding

14 with each and every one of these documents, but if none of them are

15 stamped, I think his first answer will apply to each and every one of

16 them.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, I'll take that point. And I have a couple of

18 additional questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- one draws conclusions. Yes, but go ahead if you

20 want to

21 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you. I will apply that answer to all the

22 documents he's been shown.

23 Q. You mentioned one point helicopters being used to take - and this

24 is in relation to this document P601 - to remove the wounded. Were these

25 United Nations or army of Bosnia-Herzegovina helicopters?

Page 14307

1 A. These were UN helicopters.

2 Q. If you could look at P602, and I won't take the point about

3 stamping, et cetera, I'll just ask you this: The date is 23 June 1995.

4 Can you confirm that that secretariat was established only -- only in

5 either March or June 1995? It's unclear from this. In other words, not

6 long before the fall of Srebrenica.

7 A. No, I can't.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 MR. JONES: That's all right.

10 Q. In fact, I wasn't asking so much about the document but about your

11 own knowledge whether actually this organ was established only -- if it

12 was established, only shortly before the fall of Srebrenica. Only if you

13 know.

14 A. No. In fact, it was set up after the fall of Srebrenica, because

15 the fighters arrived in Tuzla and then the activities stated -- started

16 later on, to provide them with welfare as fighters who were disabled.

17 Q. Thank you. We can turn to P603.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You've been 12 minutes now, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, in relation to this document, you were talking told us about

21 and also earlier today about the retrospective applications to be listed

22 in the ABiH. This document is dated 1995. Was that happening in 1995,

23 these retrospective applications to be listed in the ABiH?

24 A. Yes. That was the common practice. When Srebrenica fell, people

25 had no documents and they asked for their membership to be recognised

Page 14308

1 retroactively and brought witnesses to prove this.

2 Q. Thank you. In relation -- yes, and to prove this, what precisely

3 was actually being proved, that they had been members of the ABiH from

4 1992 or that they had been involved as fighters in combat in 1992 or

5 after?

6 A. There were forms that had to be filled in. I don't know exactly

7 what information was required, but for the administrative proceedings that

8 had to be entered into, certain documents had to be filled in, and there

9 were questions they were asking for precise information. There was done

10 by the services of the commands of various places.

11 Q. Now, you've told us about Daut Tihic, that you actually know about

12 him, and that he actually came with the wounded in 1993. And in this

13 document you were asked about him performing duty. According to this

14 document, that's from the 28th of April 1993, is it not? And then the

15 duty of battalion commander after that. Would that then be in Tuzla that

16 he performed these duties as opposed to in the Srebrenica area?

17 A. The -- from the 10th of January, 1994, he was in Tuzla.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could conclude, please, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Sorry, did you say I had 12 minutes a moment ago?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You had 13 and now it is 14. We entered into

21 the 15th minute.

22 MR. JONES: Okay. I just have two further questions then. It's

23 P607.

24 Q. And you were shown this document about the Potocari -- Potocari TO

25 unit members. Since this is slightly different, this document, can you

Page 14309

1 tell us whether you can tell anything about this document, when it was

2 composed, by whom it was composed, anything at all?

3 A. There is nothing I can say about this document, because it's the

4 first time I've seen it, and I have no idea who compiled it.

5 Q. All right. And were you asked about, I think, three or four names

6 on this list out of 121. You weren't asked about the other 117 or 118.

7 You were asked about Mirzet Halilovic, however. It's right, though, isn't

8 it, that his name isn't on this list at all?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If it isn't, we don't need the witness to confirm

10 it, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you. It's just we had submissions in the course

12 of cross-examination.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- later on. In fact, I tried to look up the name

14 and I didn't find it at the time but I cannot vouch that it isn't there.

15 MR. JONES: I make the same conclusion.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you concluding?

17 MR. JONES: I make the same observation for Kemal Mehmedovic, also

18 not on that list.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you, Mr. Jones, and I thank you,

20 Ms. Richardson, for being so cooperative. But most of all I would like to

21 thank the recorder, the rest of the staff, technicians, interpreters. It

22 has been a long sitting, and I thank you so much for having cooperated to

23 make it possible for this gentleman to go back home.

24 Mr. Mustafic, I thank you on behalf of the Tribunal, and on behalf

25 of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser and also on my own behalf, and I wish you

Page 14310

1 a safe journey back home. Thank you.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, for the record, before we finish, Your Honour, we

3 have objections to authenticity of a number of documents -- of exhibits.

4 We want to enter that in the record. We can deal with it next week.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you enter it next week first thing?

6 MR. JONES: Yes, I can. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will reconvene on Monday. Please take note that

8 on Monday we are not starting as previously scheduled at 9.00 or whatever

9 but we are starting at 11.30, immediately 30 minutes after the Appeals

10 Chamber finishes its -- concludes its sitting in Trial Chamber -- in

11 Courtroom I. And then we will go from 11.30 to 3.30 with normal breaks

12 obviously. All right? Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.44 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of December,

15 2005, at 11.30 a.m.