Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14937

1 Wednesday, 14 December 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 8.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you following the proceedings

11 in your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please sit down.

15 Mr. Wubben, appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben.

17 Also good morning to the learned friends from the Defence. I am here

18 together with co-counsel Ms. Patricia Sellers, and later on this

19 morning -- or actually imminent to arrive is Ms. Joanne Richardson also

20 included in the team. And our acting case manager Ms. Sanja Bokulic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

22 your team.

23 Appearances for Naser Oric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

25 morning, my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic and together with

Page 14938

1 Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Oric. With us this morning are our legal

2 assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

4 Any preliminaries? Yes, Mr. Wubben, or Mr. Jones. Just the same.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, yesterday we filed a request for

6 receiving the original Prosecution exhibit. I referred to it, and this

7 morning Defence counsel already expressed to me her opinion about it and

8 she might convey that to this Court.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Who is going to address that? We are talking

10 of P561, no?

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones, I don't know.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do not object to

14 having that document handed over for an expert opinion.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I am not suggesting now to proceed with

16 an oral decision because I haven't seen the motion as yet, so I would

17 rather prefer to see it in its entirety and then, if necessary, come back

18 to you in the break with an oral decision. But I wouldn't like to hasten

19 and grant the motion without seeing it first.

20 Yes, Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: Yes, there are a couple of other preliminaries, Your

22 Honour.

23 First for the record, we want to object to the use of the exhibits

24 on the Prosecution exhibit list. I won't name all of them, but it's

25 roughly between P3 and P608 for the following reason. We've challenged

Page 14939

1 the authenticity as far as I know of all of those documents. They haven't

2 been shown to -- in our submission, to Defence witnesses who would have

3 been in a position to comment on their contents, which is -- again, it's

4 an issue of Rule 90(H)(ii) which we've raised. Instead we anticipate that

5 the Prosecution will seek to authenticate these documents by showing them

6 to this witness who was only in Srebrenica in March 1993 and who will not

7 be familiar with the documents or with any of the events described, and

8 that is something which we consider is improper.

9 There's another aspect of that which is that since we challenge

10 the authenticity of these documents, we're aware that Your Honour's

11 indication that obviously you don't want us to indicate in front of the

12 witness that we object to authenticity. But equally, I submit, that that

13 has to go both ways and that it shouldn't be suggested either that the

14 documents are authentic to the witness. For example, being -- presenting

15 a witness with a document and saying, Does that change your mind about

16 such-and-such. It would have to be a question along the lines of, If what

17 is described in here is correct then would that change your mind.

18 Otherwise the witness is under the impression that we accept authenticity.

19 And so that's -- that's an auxiliary matter, an auxiliary matter, to the

20 general objection.

21 And I do reserve the right during cross-examination to object that

22 if the witness isn't asked with each document, Are you familiar with the

23 contents, are you familiar with Voljavica or the events described in the

24 document, and the question is hypothetical, if what is in this document,

25 would such-and-such be the case, then I certainly object to that because

Page 14940

1 this witness isn't here to answer hypothetical questions but to answer

2 questions based on his knowledge.

3 And that leads to a third aspect of all of this, which is that if

4 the Prosecution do present each one of these documents and put a

5 hypothetical question to the witness along the lines of if what is here,

6 described here is true, then would as such-and-such be the case. Then I'm

7 going to have to in re-examination go through every single document and

8 ask the witness, Are you familiar with this document; can you see whether

9 it was sent or received; do you know these places; are you able to tell us

10 anything about the document. And I'll certainly do that, but I just

11 submit that it's just better to be clear beforehand whether it's a useful

12 exercise for this witness to see these documents and then and we might

13 save an hour and a half or two hours of cross-examination and

14 re-examination.

15 There are two other preliminaries which I may as well mention --

16 mention now. They are not related to my first point. One is a matter of

17 timing. I've been I think so far two hours and 14 minutes with this

18 witness. I anticipate I can finish in about 20 minutes or half an hour.

19 I know that the witness is keen to finish today because he has travel

20 plans, and in fact equally the witness for tomorrow would also -- has

21 family commitments, which would make it best if he could also travel by

22 the end of business tomorrow. So I just mention that so that Your Honours

23 are aware that that's a schedule which would certainly suit the witnesses

24 and, I imagine, the Court. If I'm finished in half an hour, then that

25 means I would have been two hours and 45 minutes, and unless the

Page 14941

1 Prosecution is going to be longer than I was in examination-in-chief, we

2 should be able to finish with him today.

3 And then the other matter is yesterday there was this question of

4 replacing exhibits with other exhibits. I can say that having reviewed

5 the matter we don't object for P600, which as we recall the second page of

6 the document was shown by Ms. Richardson in court, and that's not

7 something we have a problem with. Or P607, which is just a question of

8 the English translation. We do object for P605, however. At the time you

9 may recall Ms. Richardson referred to judicial notice, and we objected

10 to -- in fact, there was submission regarding that document. In fact, the

11 witness didn't see the page which was being relied on, which was referring

12 to a specific person. This is the hearing of the 29th of November, 2005.

13 We can look at it all later. But in our submission if he had seen that

14 page he would have seen the date of birth of this person and other

15 details, and he could have said, Well, that's not true or that's false.

16 He should have had a right to comment on this page rather than it being

17 entered later, and so we say that that -- that's -- if the Prosecution

18 wish to tender that page, then they'll have to do it through another

19 witness.

20 Those -- that's our preliminaries, unless I can assist you, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

23 Ms. Sellers, do you want to comment on -- first of all, the -- let

24 me clear this, because you said, at least according to the transcript, the

25 documents between P603 and P608.

Page 14942

1 MR. JONES: P3.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, P3, not 603. Okay. Then the transcript needs

3 to be corrected. All right?

4 So you contest all those documents?

5 MR. JONES: I didn't go through one by one because --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. But I take it that you contest all of

7 them?

8 MR. JONES: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Including the two on the cert pages.

10 MR. JONES: I believe it's on the record already that we object to

11 those.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that's clear.

13 Ms. Sellers, you've heard the submission of Mr. Jones with regard

14 to how you should or shouldn't make use of these documents. Do you agree

15 with his submission or not?

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would be very willing to be amenable

17 to the Defence, but I don't think I'll be able to agree with his arguments

18 as set forth: I think that Defence counsel is certainly aware that the

19 Prosecution knows that they've objected to these documents, and I'm happy

20 that at least it was not raised in front of the witness. This witness

21 will not be asked to authenticate signatures of this document. This

22 witness will not be asked to go beyond, as a matter of fact, the

23 capacities from which the Defence have called him. The Defence have

24 called him on a matter which goes to tactics, which goes to military

25 strategy, whatever.

Page 14943

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

2 MS. SELLERS: In conclusion to this argument, I would strenuously

3 object that the Prosecution is not allowed to put questions to this

4 witness when these documents that relate to the very germane matters for

5 which he was called. Now, if the Defence chooses to re-direct in a

6 lengthy matter, I think that's a matter for the Defence and Your Honours.

7 Your Honour, I do have one other matter I would like to -- two

8 other matters I would like to bring up while I'm on my feet. And that is

9 that we do have a new exhibit that we would like to give to the Defence

10 prior to their starting today. And it's an exhibit of -- for this

11 witness. It's called, "Tactics, Technicals, and Procedures of Combat." I

12 believe that the Defence brought this up in the direct examination of the

13 witness. We were able to secure copies. It appears that this witness is

14 a co-author, if I look at the transcript correctly. I wanted to hand this

15 over to the Defence before they start their examination today. And Your

16 Honours will see from the document that it appears that the witness has

17 testified in line with some of the pages directly in this document.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's see it as well.

19 In the meantime, please hand a copy to the Defence.

20 MS. SELLERS: While that's being done, Your Honour, I would also

21 like to hand up the revised translation of P80. This was discussed

22 before.

23 MR. JONES: May I just clarify one matter, and I trust the

24 Prosecution isn't intending to use this as any part of their

25 cross-examination. It's not on the exhibit list.

Page 14944

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's for this reason that I -- we

2 didn't want to bring it up. I would like to use it for

3 cross-examination. That's why I wanted to bring that up to both the

4 Defence, to the Trial Chamber now before the witness has walked in. And

5 as I stated, the Defence has made reference to this -- this manual in

6 their direct examination as part of the knowledge of the witness.

7 MR. JONES: May I --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: May I address you on this, Your Honour.

10 In fact, we have a copy of this document. I didn't deal with

11 this -- the contents of this document in examination-in-chief for the

12 reason that actually to use these documents requires clearance from the

13 United States government. They can't simply be tendered and used in that

14 manner. And if the Prosecution wishes to tender it, then they'll have to

15 seek authorisation from the United States government.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, not only you. Once you have mentioned --

17 you've raised this matter up, we'll have to clear it up with the

18 representatives of the embassy here.

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we will certainly raise that with them

20 if that's what the Defence's position is. We did not receive this

21 document in that matter. If you'll notice, it does not have an ERN number

22 nor a restricted ERN number. If we do not have such clearance, I

23 certainly wouldn't want to violate anything --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not. No, no. But I will not even --

25 MS. SELLERS: We will refer to contents, as I believe the Defence

Page 14945

1 has on direct, as opposed to the document, but that's something that we

2 could take care of.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this publication or document readily available?

5 Say, if I wanted to search for this in the public domain, either

6 through -- on the Internet or -- would I be able to obtain it?

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we received it in such a manner. But I

8 would like to clarify that, importantly, because as you can see, it is not

9 part of our evidentiary bank. Let me clarify that before we would use it.

10 MR. JONES: May I just -- to further matters, Your Honour, just to

11 perhaps assist the Court. Not only did we have this document but we did

12 discuss this with the US government, and we even sent a request to be

13 authorised to use it, and we've received that authorisation, but we've

14 decided -- and it was a calculation based on how much time we had not to

15 get into it. That's an authorisation which we have. The Prosecution, as

16 I understand it, would have to seek their own authorisation.

17 The second matter is I'm wondering when the Prosecution received

18 this because there's exculpatory material in this, I can assure you, and

19 why wasn't this disclosed to us in time rather than when we already

20 started examining the witness in chief rather than -- and so we could

21 actually proof him with it if we didn't have it. We do have it. But I

22 can't understand whether the Prosecution are claiming they received this

23 yesterday. If they received it before then, then I would ask why that

24 hasn't been disclosed to us in a timely fashion.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

Page 14946

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's in the past two days that we've

2 gone through this document. On its face it speaks in generalities. If

3 there's exculpatory material, we certainly would like the Defence to look

4 at it now. But in our reviewing of this document, there's material that

5 speaks in generalities about the areas of Srebrenica and not specifically

6 about the accused nor about this case. Now, if it's been interpreted as

7 being 68 material, I think there's only one place that I see that there

8 might be a tendency toward it.

9 But, Your Honours, I think the point more importantly --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it necessary to have -- to make specific use of

11 this with the witness?

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this has been used --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't you refer to parts of it without showing the

14 document itself to the witness and ask questions on whatever part from

15 this document you would like him to testify upon? Because -- for

16 example -- I mean, I don't know. Forces for attacking from the rear or

17 fundamental tactics, if you want to deal with this, can't you put a

18 proposition to the witness based on what you have here without actually

19 showing him the document?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I think you can do that.

22 MS. SELLERS: I certainly can do that. If that would facilitate

23 matters more so --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I -- sorry. That is what I understand

25 the Defence did.

Page 14947

1 MS. SELLERS: That is what they did.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So why don't you do the same thing and avoid the

3 entire discussion?

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm in your hands. I agree with you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It will save us having to ask for permission from

6 the two US representatives who could be extra cautious and say we have to

7 go back to the State Department first and seek clearance from there. I

8 don't know, so --

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that's an approach I could take.

10 MR. JONES: Your Honour -- sorry, but this is terribly important.

11 Firstly, if there's any possibility that the Prosecution are going

12 to use this in cross-examination, then I will -- then I don't want to stop

13 my examination-in-chief until I know whether I'm going to be able to use

14 this document. If the Prosecution are going to use it in

15 cross-examination, then I will certainly use it in chief.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

17 MR. JONES: So we need to clear that up first.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't finished your examination-in-chief.

19 MR. JONES: I was going to finish in 20 minutes but I'll have to

20 wait until --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you haven't finished, in other words. You

22 can use this document if you want to, especially since you've had

23 clearance from --

24 MR. JONES: It's not my intention to. I want to see if the

25 Prosecution will.

Page 14948

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, they won't be using this document, as I take

2 it. They will be using it indirectly by making reference to it, without

3 indicating to the witness that they are referring to a particular

4 document, which is this.

5 MR. JONES: That's fine, yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MR. JONES: And may I -- and for the second matter which is --

8 absolutely -- I find staggering is that the Prosecution mentioned

9 receiving this a couple of days ago. I don't know if that was when they

10 had their interview with our witness on Friday. But this, Your Honour,

11 perhaps we can go into private session, but I can refer to matters which

12 are clearly exculpatory, referring to no trained military leaders, the

13 village chiefs became local commanders. This is clearly an exculpatory

14 matter. The fact that this was not disclosed to us by the Prosecution

15 until now is another Rule 68 violation. There is absolutely -- and Your

16 Honours will see, there is no question that there is a lot of Rule 68

17 material here concerning what sort of potential for command and control

18 existed.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the ground clear now, in military terms, so that

20 we can bring in Lieutenant Colonel Dudley?

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just like to clarify then from

22 Your Honour's and the Trial Chamber's instructions is that instead of

23 tendering this, I can refer to some of the contents in terms of my

24 questioning. Is that --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Listen, I'm not taking decisions for you, Ms.

Page 14949

1 Sellers.

2 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The decision belongs to you. Equally it belongs to

4 Mr. Jones. If he wants to make use of this document between now and when

5 he ends his examination-in-chief, he is free to do so. I mean, I cannot

6 restrict him. Him or you. But please do take into consideration that

7 while Mr. Jones has already had clearance from the US government, you

8 haven't. So basically, if you try to make use of this, if Mr. Jones

9 hasn't made use of it and brought it into the records of the case as an

10 exhibit, then we will have problems.

11 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

12 MR. WUBBEN: An additional matter with a view to the preliminaries

13 by Mr. Jones was the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 605.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Was the scheduling of the witness tomorrow.


17 MR. WUBBEN: There was expressed a kind of wish or request, I

18 don't know, to end by close of business tomorrow. Can we discuss that

19 after finalising this --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I would suggest that you discuss it amongst

21 yourselves first. Because you can anticipate that we are not going to

22 tell you, yes, definitely, we will finish tomorrow or, no, he won't finish

23 tomorrow. I mean, we'll see.

24 Yes. It's nice to get some adrenaline running in the system at

25 8.00 in the morning.

Page 14950

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, may I state that upon the entry

3 in the courtroom of the witness, the two representatives of the US State

4 Department and also of the US Embassy here in The Hague showed up. That's

5 Mr. Clifton Johnson and Ms. Heather Schildge. Good morning to you and

6 welcome back.

7 Good morning to you, Lieutenant Colonel, welcome back. We're

8 going to proceed and finish with the direct and then we will have the

9 cross-examination. We're starting now, because again, once more, that's

10 actually almost a daily recurrence. We had procedural problems to deal

11 with and decide upon. Believe me, this is no easy job. Thank you. So

12 good morning to you.

13 Mr. Jones, please, you may proceed with your direct.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you.


16 Examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning from me, Colonel.

18 MR. JONES: And I wonder if we could start with the witness being

19 shown D229, please. Defence Exhibit 229.

20 Just for the record, this is HQ BH command, dated 20th March,

21 1993.

22 Q. So that was, again, a time when you were actually in the enclave.

23 And I'll direct your attention to paragraph 8. It's under "assessment" on

24 the second page. It says: "The Serb attack on the Srebrenica enclave

25 continues unabated. Despite the recent success of General Morillon to get

Page 14951

1 the relief convoy into Srebrenica, the Serbs seem intent to continue this

2 offensive as part of a general aim to continue to capture areas which can

3 be taken at little cost. Currently the Serbs are clearing up to four to

4 five villages per day. They have received a lot of support from across

5 the border in Serbia during this offensive. The Serbians have supported

6 the BSA with artillery fire, aircraft bombers, and ammunition re-supply

7 convoys, as well as having allowed the Serbs to stage from within Serbian

8 borders to attack from the east and south of the enclave."

9 Pausing there, I just want to ask whether you can confirm that

10 that -- whether that was the situation or not when you were there?

11 A. That appears to be a very accurate statement of the situation.

12 Q. And it goes on. I'm just going to look at a couple of more

13 paragraphs. Paragraph 9: "This offensive is creating a refugee situation

14 of huge proportions. The number of refugees in the Srebrenica enclave is

15 assessed to be around 80.000. It is estimated that there are 20.000

16 refugees in Srebrenica alone and an additional 20.000 in Zepa. The

17 condition of many of the refugees is very poor. There are an estimated

18 200 seriously wounded and an additional 100 less seriously wounded. A

19 death rate of 20 persons per day is reported. The pending massive medevac

20 to Tuzla or any other single location would create a severe problem

21 because of overcrowding in a city hospital there."

22 Again, if you can comment at all on the situation as described

23 there?

24 A. The only change I would have is I think the estimate that I had

25 personally was 70.000 in the pocket versus 80.000. But again we're

Page 14952

1 quibbling over numbers. The situation was very bad.

2 Q. And now paragraph 10, I won't read in full, but in summary it's

3 dealing with the anticipated situation of Srebrenica would fall and with

4 the refugees fleeing to Zepa.

5 And the next paragraph states: "If free passage with transport

6 cannot be arranged for the refugees in the Srebrenica pocket within the

7 next 7 to 14 days, indications are that the Serbs will carry out a

8 genocidal cleansing of the entire enclave, resulting in the potential

9 death of up to 80.000 human beings. In any case, there is little hope

10 that current efforts to get the Serbs to halt their attack will be

11 successful. They are unlikely to stop this offensive until the enclave is

12 cleared, one way or another."

13 And my question based on that is: Is it right that you in fact

14 reported or made similar predictions about what would happen if Srebrenica

15 fell?

16 A. That is right. I wasn't predicting genocide per se, but I was

17 definitely saying it was not going to be a pretty picture when the Serbs

18 moved in.

19 Q. And as far as you could tell, were the people in Srebrenica aware

20 of that?

21 A. Yes, they were. Again, I made a comment the other day that they

22 appeared not to be much smarter than their animals that they owned. What

23 I meant by that is that they were very desperate people and they were at

24 the -- below what I call basic human needs level, and they were vying just

25 for basic survival. And therefore they were killing, robbing, stealing,

Page 14953

1 doing everything that they could just to survive, and that had reduced

2 them almost to the level of animals.

3 Q. Right. I think I'm moving to a different area now.

4 Were you present when a Serb was released from Srebrenica and sent

5 to Bratunac?

6 A. Yes, I was. I believe that date was the 21st of March.

7 Q. And do you remember what time of day?

8 A. It was in the morning and at approximately 10.30.

9 Q. And where had you spent the previous night?

10 A. I had spent the previous night out on a drop zone watching a

11 delivery of supplies, and I had come back, got a couple of hours sleep,

12 and I was up talking to some guards and they needed help with the

13 stretcher gear, and I volunteered to go.

14 Q. And when you say "guards," are these Bosnians or internationals or

15 who were they?

16 A. These were the Canadians who were guarding in front of the PTT

17 building.

18 Q. And where did you go from the PTT building?

19 A. We went south along the main road, and then there is a grocery

20 store where the road forms a Y, and we headed off to the right side of

21 that road and up the hill.

22 Q. And what were you travelling in?

23 A. We were travelling in the M-113, the Canadian M-113.

24 Q. Is that an APC?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 14954

1 Q. Now, did any other APCs travel with you?

2 A. No. That was the only one that was in the pocket at the time.

3 Q. Was General Morillon in the APC with you?

4 A. No, he was not.

5 Q. Was his ADC with him in the -- with you in the APC?

6 A. Do you mean Major Tucker?

7 Q. In fact, I meant the Macedonian.

8 A. No, he was not.

9 Q. And how about Major Tucker?

10 A. Major Tucker was in the APC.

11 Q. And do you know where General Morillon and his body-guard went or

12 where they were at that time?

13 A. This is an assumption, but because Major Tucker was up picking up

14 the prisoner, I am assuming that he was down at the Bratunac bridge

15 working with the Serbs to finalise the actual exchange of prisoners.

16 Q. So your assumption is that at this time General Morillon and his

17 body-guard were at Bratunac, but you're not sure. It's simply that he

18 wasn't with you in the APC?

19 A. Yes. And since that was the major action of the day, I would

20 assume that's where he was.

21 Q. Now, did you arrive at a location where the Serb was picked up?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. So let's call that the pick-up location. Again, sorry, it may

24 seem obvious, but to make this clear. Was General Morillon at the pick-up

25 location?

Page 14955

1 A. No, he was not.

2 Q. And was his body-guard?

3 A. No, he was not.

4 Q. And what did you do at that location?

5 A. We dismounted from the armoured personnel carrier. We carried out

6 the stretcher. At the exact same time, the Serb prisoner was being

7 brought down the hill. We laid him on the stretcher and we picked him up

8 and put him into the armoured personnel carrier.

9 Q. Now, was anyone filming this scene?

10 A. Yes. Tony Birtley was filming the scene.

11 Q. And where did you go from there?

12 A. We went past the PTT building down to a bridge south of

13 Srebrenica, not as far as Bratunac but about halfway down. There weren't

14 a whole lot of buildings around the area, and I remember a Serb defensive

15 line on the far end of the bridge.

16 Q. And was the Serb then handed over to the Serbs in that location?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And around what time was that?

19 A. This -- I'm going to guess between 11.30 and 12.00 noon. It was

20 definitely before 12.00 noon.

21 Q. And at that handover location, did you see General Morillon?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And his body-guard?

24 A. Yes. I would say he was there also because they were joined at

25 the hip at all occasions.

Page 14956

1 Q. You said how Tony Birtley was filming this scene. Did he continue

2 to film the APC or did he stop before then?

3 A. I don't remember Tony Birtley being at the bridge. I believe he

4 got off before we left Srebrenica.

5 Q. And can you think of any reason why he did that?

6 A. Neither he nor I were very popular with the Serbs at that time,

7 and I don't think he wanted to expose himself to being physically

8 extracted from the enclave.

9 Q. Now, when you were in the APC going from the pick-up location to

10 the handover location, were you seated in the APC?

11 A. Yes, I was. And I believe I was at the front of the APC, close to

12 the prisoner's head.

13 Q. So were you near him?

14 A. I was right next to him.

15 Q. And when you got the Serb to the -- the Serb side, when he was

16 handed over, what did the people there do?

17 A. They immediately crowded around him and started asking him

18 questions. One of the officers chased them off. They carried him across

19 the bridge and loaded him, I believe, onto another ambulance and he was

20 gone.

21 Q. And then was that the end of the matter?

22 A. Yeah, that was basically the end of the matter. We stood around

23 and talked a little bit more. I had a discussion with a Serb officer

24 about air-drops on their side of the enclave, outside the enclave, and

25 then we loaded up and left.

Page 14957

1 MR. JONES: Now we have photographs to distribute.

2 Q. And while that's being handed out, at the pick-up location, do you

3 recall any mention of Naser Oric?

4 A. No, I do not.

5 Q. Was anyone pointed out to you as Naser Oric?

6 A. No -- no, and I would have remembered it. One of the key things I

7 remember is there were very few people around. Most of them were directly

8 involved in picking up the prisoner, but I wouldn't say I saw any key

9 players from the Bosnian side at that location.

10 MR. JONES: Now, if we can look at that photograph, if it can be

11 placed on the ELMO, I'm afraid it's a bit blurry.

12 Q. Can you pick out and identify of the people in that picture? Now

13 first of all -- first of all, do you recognise this picture and what it

14 shows?

15 A. Yes, I do. This is the prisoner pick-up point.

16 Q. And can you identify anyone in that picture?

17 A. This is Staff Sergeant Morrison who was the NCO in charge of the

18 Canadian group. This is the prisoner being helped.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's give this document an exhibit

20 number to start with, and then we go through it in a correct manner. This

21 will become Defence Exhibit D9?

22 THE REGISTRAR: D997, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 997.

24 So can you go through this again slowly, sir? The gentleman we

25 see on the left with the cap, you're pointing at that person, who is that

Page 14958

1 person according to you?

2 THE WITNESS: That is Staff Sergeant Morrison. He was the NCO in

3 charge of the Canadian team that was with us in Srebrenica.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And to his right there is a man with a

5 cap and a jacket. Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: I do not know him.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You are pointing that person. You don't know that

8 person?

9 THE WITNESS: I do not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. In between there is a semi-reclined figure. Is

11 that the prisoner that was eventually exchanged?

12 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

14 MR. JONES: Could we say "stooping figure."

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Stooping figure. All right.

16 Is it important for you to identify any of the others? There I

17 see two persons with a cap and a helmet.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, if the colonel could identify the person he was

19 just pointing to a moment ago.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the one with the helmet.

21 THE WITNESS: That was one of the Canadian soldiers.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. And the one with the cap, extreme

23 right.

24 THE WITNESS: That is myself.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That is yourself. All right. There is another

Page 14959

1 person with a cap in the foreground just in front of where you are.

2 THE WITNESS: That is Major Tucker.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That is Major Tucker. And at the -- at your -- at

4 the back behind you, there is -- behind you, there is a person who seems

5 to be wearing a kind of a camouflage uniform, et cetera. Can you identify

6 that person?

7 THE WITNESS: No, I cannot. I do not know who he is.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Does that cover everyone

9 that you needed to identify in this photo?

10 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


13 Q. Now, do you recall roughly where this location was?

14 A. Yes. Inside Srebrenica. I can generally point to the general

15 area. It was a fancy building with very nice stone work.

16 Q. All right. We're going to show a picture now and it's from C2.

17 That should appear on the monitor.

18 Now, would that -- would the building on the right -- is that the

19 location?

20 A. Yes, it is. Can I make a quick comparison between the two

21 photographs?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. If you look at the original photograph that shows the prisoner

24 exchange, you will see the rock wall at the base of both photographs, you

25 will see the horizontal bar in both photographs. You will see the same

Page 14960

1 type of stone work above, and you will also see that the bars on the

2 windows and the spacing is almost exactly the same. That was the only

3 building like that in Srebrenica that I know of.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, on this occasion, you told us how you

5 were in the APC - and we've finished with that photograph exhibit - that

6 you were near this detainee. At that time, at the pick-up, did you also

7 get close to him?

8 A. Yes. I was very close to him. I was sitting, again, close to his

9 head. One of my key remembrances is that he reeked. He smelled very

10 badly.

11 Q. Now, were there any signs that this Serb had been beaten?

12 A. No. I did not see any physical signs that he had been beaten.

13 Q. Were there any signs of bruising or bleeding on his face?

14 A. No. There were no signs of either bruising or bleeding on his

15 face.

16 Q. Were there any bandages on his face?

17 A. There were no bandages on his face.

18 MR. JONES: We have a second photograph to distribute.

19 Q. Now, can you tell us whether you recognise this picture?

20 A. That was the prisoner that we were exchanging.

21 Q. And do you know where this is shot from?

22 A. This is shot inside the M-113, and the hatch to the M-113 was

23 open, so therefore he's protecting his eyes because he came out of a dark

24 room. Covering his eyes, trying to protect them a little bit from the

25 sunlight.

Page 14961

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, this photo that the

2 witness is being shown, referring to, is being tendered and marked as

3 Defence Exhibit D998.


5 Q. You've told us and we can see from this picture that there was no

6 bandages and no signs of bruising or blood or beating on his face?

7 A. Roger. I gave the prisoner several good looks, again just being a

8 military observer. I would like to point out a few things that I noticed

9 and remember to this day. First, you'll notice that his hands are very

10 dirty. He obviously had not been washed. You notice the length of his

11 hair. He had been confined for I suspect at least two months since it had

12 become rather long and shaggy. I was amazed that He didn't have much of a

13 beard. He appears to have just a light goatee. His eyes are very

14 shrunken, which shows to me that he's malnourished. And again his clothes

15 were dirty but intact. He had a complete set of clothing on.

16 Q. And while you were in Srebrenica, were there other people,

17 Muslims, who were in such a state?

18 A. That is correct. The entire population was starving at this time,

19 and most of them were very malnourished, and so I would say this is a very

20 typical appearance of a lot of people inside Srebrenica. They could walk

21 a little better than he could, but they were still in very bad shape.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

23 MR. JONES: I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

25 Ms. Sellers.

Page 14962

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if the Court would indulge me, I need a

2 five-minute break in order to verify --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Sellers. We will have a five-minute

4 break. I suggest that everyone stays in the proximity of the courtroom.

5 We will leave the courtroom for five minutes and we'll be back in five

6 minutes' time.

7 --- Break taken at 8.44 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 8.52 a.m.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ready? Ms. Sellers.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to thank the Trial

11 Chamber for giving me the five-minute break, which became a ten-minute

12 break. I would like to put on the record that during that break the

13 Prosecution availed themselves of the opportunity to speak to the United

14 States government in relationship to the document that had been raised

15 earlier in this session. And our question to the United States government

16 was precisely in response to what the Defence had raised in terms of any

17 Rule 68 material that might be contained within that document, and we've

18 asked for permission from the US government: Could we release the

19 document to the Defence counsel, in light of any Rule 68 material that we

20 might feel is in the document. And I have been informed by the

21 representatives that that will be possible, unless the Defence at this

22 time states that they already have the document or if there's any other

23 arrangements. If not, then we'll proceed in that fashion to make sure

24 that they do have the information.


Page 14963

1 Do you wish to comment on that, Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones?

2 MR. JONES: A bit more than we've received this already. I'm not

3 sure -- is this post-talk that the Prosecution has received authorisation

4 to release this to us?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers can answer that.

6 MS. SELLERS: Yes, we have. In light of your concerns, and in

7 light of our having the document more recently, we wanted to make sure

8 that the Defence would be in possession of any Rule 68 material, and

9 that's why we wanted to make the request forthwith. Not ad hoc, but

10 expeditious.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can close this incident here and proceed

12 with the cross-examination.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, just for the understanding that we

14 will proceed unless the Defence --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's your problem --

16 MS. SELLERS: Fine.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not to concern ourselves -- we are not

18 concerned with that. I mean -- yes, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Unless I've completely misunderstood. This has been

20 disclosed to us, the Prosecution is conceding that it's Rule 68 material.

21 That's fine. I don't understand Ms. Sellers to be saying that she's going

22 to use this. We have an agreement on that already.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I don't think that's the case. Ms. Sellers

24 is concerned, as I take it, that the Prosecution will not be exposed at

25 later -- any later point in time in not having disclosed a document

Page 14964

1 containing Rule 68 material according to you and also according to her.

2 And the problem that stood in the way after that you raised the matter was

3 that, strictly speaking, the Prosecution did not yet have clearance from

4 the US government. Now they have clearance or the prospect of clearance

5 from the US government, and they are informing the Trial Chamber that they

6 will be disclosing the document in compliance with the Rule 68

7 requirements. That's how I understood it. If I understood it wrongly,

8 please correct me. It will not be the first and I promise you it will not

9 be the last time I have misunderstood something.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think you have understood it quite

11 correctly. And there is another slight technicality. I would have to ask

12 the Defence. I believe that we gave them copies of the materials that we

13 were going to use for our examination, and we will disclose this properly

14 with a receipt. And so those materials that we have given you are

15 basically not at this point disclosed to you. So let's not have any

16 misunderstanding.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Another thing before you proceed with your

18 cross-examination.

19 Mr. Jones, what's the source of these two photos?

20 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I prefer not to give evidence about

21 that. It could be dealt with with the subsequent witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

23 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

24 MS. SELLERS: All right.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers:

Page 14965

1 Q. Good morning, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley. As you know, I'm with

2 the Prosecution. I'm going to be asking questions that pertain to many of

3 the things that you've testified with on direct examination. If you do

4 not understand my question, please ask me to repeat it or rephrase it.

5 And certainly if you do not know of information that I'm trying to

6 solicit, a simple yes or no will certainly suffice. If you would like to

7 explain more fully to the Trial Chamber, just inform me.

8 I would like to ask you again to just confirm that you were in

9 Srebrenica in the enclave from March 20 -- from March 11th until

10 March 28th. Is that correct, sir?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And when you came to Srebrenica, you were, in essence, assigned or

13 working with two persons, one named Zele and one named Senad. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Those are the two individuals that came forward and were able

16 to -- initially they were my watchers, and then they became my

17 interpreters and assistants once they were convinced that I was doing good

18 for them and not bad.

19 Q. Well, in the stage in which they were your watchers, would you

20 please tell the Trial Chamber how they watched you.

21 A. I convinced the local authorities that I needed to make some

22 communication shots in order to coordinate the air-drops. That got me out

23 of the PTT building, and we moved to the south of Srebrenica to get to the

24 top of a hill to do an initial TacSat shot. Senad was the first one to go

25 with me, and he was right next to me and listening to every word that I

Page 14966

1 said on the tactical satellite system. He was making sure that I was not

2 putting out any information that he did not approve of.

3 Q. Now, is Senad the one who was dressed in military garb, if I can

4 state as much?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Did he wear a beret and camouflage and carry a weapon, to your

7 knowledge?

8 A. To be specifically, he wore a green beret. He had camouflage

9 jacket and pants and a form of combat boots. He wore either a North

10 Korean or Chinese protective vest which had his AK banana clips in front

11 of it, and he carried either a North Korean or a Chinese Kalashnikov.

12 Q. Now the other person, Zele, could you tell us how was he dressed?

13 A. He was usually dressed informally. Occasionally I saw him in

14 police garb, and the key thing that was always noticeable about him was he

15 had one arm. He had lost his arm earlier in the conflict.

16 Q. Do you know who sent Senad and Zele to you to be your watchers at

17 this point?

18 A. Senad told me that he had been sent by Naser. However, I was

19 never able to confirm that.

20 Q. Now, when you say "Naser," did you take that to mean Naser Oric or

21 did you take that to mean another Naser?

22 A. I took that to mean the military commander on the ground.

23 Q. Now, when Senad and Zele first came to you, isn't it true that

24 they threatened to kill you if certain rules or regulations weren't

25 followed?

Page 14967

1 A. Yes. They were there to assist me, but they indicated --

2 particularly Senad indicated that he was also there to kill me if I got

3 out of hand.

4 Q. And do you know why he would kill you if you came to Srebrenica to

5 help?

6 A. I think the biggest concern was that they did not know who I was.

7 I showed up as a professional military officer from the United States, and

8 they weren't quite sure of exactly what I was about.

9 Q. From your point of view, is that the reason that you say that you

10 were watched, that your communications were listened to?

11 A. Yes. They were very concerned about what I was putting out.

12 Q. Were they also concerned about where you went in the town of

13 Srebrenica?

14 A. Yes. Within the town itself and also in the outside pocket.

15 Q. Were you ever prohibited from going to certain locations or into

16 certain buildings because of them?

17 A. Let me rephrase your question.

18 Q. Mm-hmm.

19 A. I requested to go to certain locations, particularly to meet with

20 the local military commander, who was stated to be Naser. And I was

21 refused access to him on several -- you know, I was never allowed to see

22 him or meet with him or the other military authorities inside Srebrenica.

23 As far as freedom of access, once the first week had passed, I was out

24 walking at night even without any hindrance to my ability to get around.

25 It was just that first week that they were closely following me and

Page 14968

1 watching my actions.

2 Q. Did you somehow gain their confidence?

3 A. Yes, I did. The key way I gained their confidence was being able

4 to deliver air-drops at the place and point of times I said supplies were

5 going to come in.

6 Q. After you delivered air-drops and were able to gain their

7 confidence, then were you allowed to meet Naser?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you ever given a reasonable explanation from your point of

10 view of why you could not meet Naser?

11 A. Let me rephrase that first, okay?

12 Q. Certainly.

13 A. I requested to meet him. I never did meet him. I understand

14 afterwards that he was in the general vicinity, but I was never, that I

15 remember, introduced to him. And therefore, I would have to say -- I

16 don't know whether he was just unavailable or just unwilling to meet with

17 me. I cannot say.

18 Q. And because of either the unavailability or the unwillingness, you

19 were never able to see him face-to-face or be introduced to him?

20 A. Not that I can remember.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Ms. Sellers, I'd like to know from the

22 interpreters whether they are happy with -- no. I think you need to slow

23 down, both of you, particularly in allowing a short interval of time

24 between question and answer, because I take it that the interpreters are

25 finding it a little bit difficult in catching up with you. Thank you.

Page 14969

1 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Lieutenant Dudley, because we are both English speakers, we're --

3 I'm asking the question and we're answering and we're going back and

4 forth, and for our interpreters it would be better if we took the breaks.

5 Now, even though you were never introduced to Naser and therefore

6 I assume didn't recognise him, are you -- were you under the impression

7 that both Zele and Senad were in communication with Naser while they were

8 your watchers?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Did they ever give you any information concerning Naser Oric while

11 you were there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever ask for any information concerning Naser Oric?

14 A. I did not ask for specific information on him or about him. The

15 only reason I was interested in him is I considered him one of the key

16 players in assisting me to accomplish my mission.

17 Q. Okay. Now, after you gained their confidence, were you able to

18 talk to them about some of the experiences that they had had during the

19 war or things that had happened in Srebrenica or the enclave during the

20 war?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And were you able to talk to them about any actions that they had

23 participated or in or any actions that they knew about?

24 A. Yes, I had.

25 Q. And what did they tell you in terms of the manner in which actions

Page 14970

1 or attacks were carried out from the Muslim side in Srebrenica?

2 A. Okay. I have stated a lot of this information yesterday. Some of

3 the specific things that they personally mentioned as far as their

4 individual actions in the enclave was that they would go out on small

5 raiding parties and they would attack viciously and quickly. They would

6 take no prisoners because they had no way of taking care of them or

7 escaping with them. And they would be short, violent, probing attacks to

8 keep the Serbs off balance. And Senad particularly, I know at least once

9 while I was in the enclave, took off on one of those activities.

10 Q. Now, as you described that yesterday, you mentioned that these

11 were types of raids?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Now, from your experience as a military intelligence officer, the

14 types of raids that you're describing, what types of forces would normally

15 partake in actions such as those?

16 A. I would say light infantry/guerrilla type personnel, and the

17 reason why is they travel light and quickly and usually in the dark. And

18 they're able to surprise whoever they're going after and can quickly hit

19 hard and withdraw before the enemy forces can respond effectively.

20 Q. Would there be a typical time of day when raids such as that would

21 be carried out?

22 A. Most definitely. You do them between 2.00 and 6.00 in the

23 morning, when the enemy is the most tired and the visibility is the

24 poorest. And you would strike them just before -- a technical term

25 is "early morning nautical twilight." Just as you can barely see shadows,

Page 14971

1 but not much more.

2 Q. And also in those type of actions that you're describing, would

3 those type of actions involve small units, combined units, or large units?

4 A. These would be basically small units, usually between 20 and a

5 hundred men, and I would say maximum of a hundred men because you're

6 making too much noise as you're approaching the target.

7 Q. I'm using the word "units," I could say brigades or battalions,

8 but when you're speaking about these types of actions, the guerrilla

9 warfares, is the term "units" used descriptive or is it still within a

10 military sense?

11 A. Unit can be used for any organisation of people under arms. You

12 can call a unit anywhere from a battalion all the way down to a small

13 squad without specifying total numbers.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I object to that, that comment by

16 Ms. Sellers, "I could say brigades or battalions," that wasn't any part of

17 the question about the meaning of the word "units." And certainly we know

18 what the witness -- the evidence he gave in terms of describing groups,

19 that was the term which he used. So I would object to the comments

20 about "I could say brigades or battalions." I don't see how --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: She was using those terms in context of guerrilla

22 warfare.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm going to follow up my next

24 question --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I think -- I do understand of course your

Page 14972

1 objection, but I also understand that she was not putting to the witness

2 that she was actually dealing with brigades or battalions.

3 Anyway, let's move ahead.


5 Q. Lieutenant Dudley, now I would like to say in using terminology

6 such as "brigades" or "battalions" with what you've described as guerrilla

7 forces, would that have to be a specified number or would that be a term

8 of art used in the military?

9 A. When we're dealing with either guerrilla or small militias or

10 other non-professional military, "unit" would be an appropriate term, also

11 group, "guerrilla group" would also be an appropriate term. But, again

12 the sizes, the capabilities, varies tremendously in that type of an

13 environment.

14 Q. Now, with units or guerrilla groups in that type of nature, you've

15 mentioned that they frequently would not take prisoners. So would you

16 mean prisoners of war during these raids or these actions?

17 A. That is correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm wondering what the relevance of this is. It

20 doesn't relate to any count in the indictment that I can see.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I can imagine what the relevance is, but

22 Ms. Sellers will tell us that.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, our indictment certainly concerns

24 actions where prisoners have been taken clearly in the indictment and

25 clearly the last part of the direct examination of my learned friend

Page 14973

1 concerned prisoners.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Go ahead.


4 Q. Excuse me. I would like to get back to my last question, and that

5 is: With units or guerrilla groups in that type of nature you mentioned

6 that they frequently would not take prisoners, prisoners of war in these

7 type of actions. I would like to ask you to explain why.

8 A. Well, first off, when you are moving quickly in that environment

9 you can't afford to drag along somebody that will slow you down,

10 particularly when you are retrograding after the attack. The other one is

11 that you have no place to hold him, and particularly if you're living hand

12 to mouth yourselves, you don't want an extra mouth to have to feed or to

13 take care of. The only reasons that you would take a prisoner in this

14 situation is when there is a prisoner exchange and/or to gain military

15 information from that prisoner, if you thought they possibly possessed it.

16 Like if you've captured a higher-ranking officer, by chance.

17 Q. When you say "a prisoner exchange," could I take that to mean to

18 exchange your prisoners for prisoners from the other side that could be

19 your own fighting forces?

20 A. Roger. One of the key things was morale of small groups

21 particularly in this type of an environment is getting back your dead

22 wounded and/or live personnel. And then you will of course take prisoners

23 in order to exchange that. Give somebody to the enemy so you can get your

24 own back. Very common practice.

25 Q. Would there also be any practices of the times that you would

Page 14974

1 exchange prisoners that you captured probably for valuable goods, whether

2 it be food or whether it be weapons or ammunitions?

3 A. Yes. On occasion if the enemy had proven itself willing to

4 negotiate. Sometimes you're -- the enemy will be willing to write-off

5 their prisoner, particularly if they know that they've got the other side

6 on their last legs.

7 Q. I see. Now, getting back to these types of manoeuvres by

8 guerrilla forces, units, or groups, would tactics such as ambushes be a

9 part of what these types of units or guerrilla groups would do?

10 A. Yes, particularly in the defensive position, since they didn't

11 have enough people to defend the whole pocket. Setting up ambushes on key

12 trails, roads, other areas where the enemy might likely try to attack from

13 would be a very appropriate form of warfare. This fits in with the

14 asymmetric warfare concept I talked about yesterday.

15 Q. Would that asymmetrical warfare also include trying to break

16 what's known as lines of communication of the enemy?

17 A. That would be in a larger picture. That's not asymmetric; that's

18 actually interdicting the line of communication, which you try to do in

19 any type of warfare. Cut the enemy off from his supplies and make it very

20 difficult for the enemy to receive supplies. And if we're -- area of

21 operations, that's a key part of it is having small raiding parties

22 operating back their tech and convoys, otherwise disrupting the supply of

23 the forward lines.

24 Q. Would the capture of weapons in these types of raids or action be

25 a reasonable tactic of such groups?

Page 14975

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, sorry. These are questions which are addressed

3 to -- which should be addressed to an expert. If this witness can be

4 asked whether he actually heard about this, or experienced it, or saw it,

5 but at this stage it is simply asking the witness to -- either to

6 speculate or to give what would be an expert opinion about whether

7 such-and-such a tactic would be a reasonable tactic. The question is

8 whether actually he observed that tactic, whether he saw it, whether it

9 was something he learned when he was in the pocket. Otherwise we're in

10 the realms of expert opinion and/or speculation.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I believe correctly, I'll try and

13 pull it forth in the transcript, that Lieutenant Colonel Dudley was asked

14 yesterday in particular about the expertise that he had gained, not as

15 only an airborne officer and intelligence officer, 13 years, I believe, of

16 infantry. We have talked about C3I, command, communication, control,

17 intelligence, without relating it to any particular incident. So I'm just

18 exploring these areas that the Defence sought and thought was relevant to

19 raise on direct examination.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: No, that's a different matter, Your Honour. I asked

22 about C3I as to whether that was something which the witness observed,

23 whether in fact those conditions for command and control and

24 communications existed on the ground. As to whether he's served --

25 whether he's had 13 years of experience, et cetera, it's not an issue of

Page 14976

1 what experience he had. It is a question of what question is put to him.

2 An expert -- a witness can have all sorts of expertise, but unless he is

3 here as an expert witness, then he should be asked factual questions about

4 what he observed, what he heard, what conclusions he drew, not whether

5 absolutely in the abstract a certain tactic would be reasonable -- would

6 be reasonable. All my questions were related to the situation as he

7 observed it in Srebrenica in March 11 to March 28.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but he also testified yesterday about advice,

9 particular advice, that he was giving to the -- the people or the

10 defenders of Srebrenica at the time and tactical defence of Srebrenica and

11 so on and so forth. So at this point in time, unless we really get into

12 technicalities that belong to -- strictly to an expert witness, I would go

13 along, if we come to that stage, obviously I will stop Ms. Sellers. So

14 far I think we are in the perimeters of the same kind of testimony that he

15 gave yesterday and also earlier on today. Okay.

16 Let's -- Ms. Sellers.


18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I believe I asked you whether lines of

19 communication would be part of things that units and guerrilla groups were

20 trying to attack. And the next question I want to ask is that would it

21 be, at times, feasible for several groups or units to act in a manner to

22 carry out several types of these type of tactics, a combination of ambush,

23 a combination of breaking lines of communication or getting enemy weapons?

24 A. Okay. Within the pocket while I was there, these groups would

25 have been able to muster maybe 200 men to do that kind of attack.

Page 14977

1 Can I have a map, please?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Would the witness be handed the same map that he

3 used yesterday 965 or 96 -- 995, 4, or something like that. 996, yes.

4 Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: In Eastern Bosnia --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Lieutenant Colonel.

7 I would suggest that the technicians focus on the area -- no, no,

8 you need to bring -- focus further up. Start between -- yes, that's about

9 it. Yes.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. That's exactly right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And focus, possibly, because the

12 words are barely visible here.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay. The Drina River separated Serbia from

14 Bosnia. Along this road were several key bridges that supplied material

15 to the Bosnian Serb forces. There -- because the terrain was so split up,

16 it was very difficult for the Serbs to move off the main hardball roads

17 with supplies. Those roads also were not adequate for trucks, heavy --

18 other heavy types of equipment. Therefore, one of the key reasons why the

19 Serbs needed to take out the Srebrenica pocket, or at least significantly

20 shrink it, was to deny the enemy access to interdicting their main roads

21 along their lines of communication. You can see also that Srebrenica sat

22 very close to Bratunac and to the key bridges and up further to Zvornik.

23 That made it very -- so pushing the pocket back from the north and the

24 south kept the Muslim forces from being able to get out and interdict

25 those supplies or those main avenues of communication.

Page 14978


2 Q. So, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, on the opposite side, those

3 fighting against the restrictions that the Serbs might have been imposing,

4 would it have been a goal to break those bridges so that the Serbs

5 wouldn't be supplied and to break any lines of communication that they

6 would have as a military goal?

7 A. In this location, one of the key things that I found interesting

8 is that the Muslims did not destroy any bridges and they did not rip up

9 any road, and that was one thing I found very interesting. I suspect the

10 key reason they did not do it was they did not have the high explosives or

11 the engineering capability to rig explosives to rig explosives to destroy

12 these hard targets.

13 Q. Now, talking about the terrain - and you mentioned that in one of

14 your previous answers - what type of terrain favours the use of light

15 artillery versus heavy artillery or tanks?

16 A. Okay. This terrain handled both -- and I'll talk to each one

17 separately --

18 Q. Now, when you say "this terrain," are you referring now to the

19 terrain in Srebrenica?

20 A. The terrain in Srebrenica where I was operating. If you have a

21 known hard target or a road or someplace else we can have a military

22 observer looking at it, it favours just about any type of indirect weapons

23 fire that you can use. In this case, for instance, when you were at the

24 soccer field, the Serbs were effectively using heavy mortars or heavy

25 artillery. In the more broken-up terrain off the main roads where it was

Page 14979

1 very difficult to see a -- what the enemy was up to, then they would have

2 to shell indiscriminately or engage the enemy with direct-line fire or

3 with some very small mortars because they knew where the enemy was

4 located. Of course, they could not also take their tanks, their

5 artillery, their mortars, off the main roads because the terrain wouldn't

6 support them.

7 Q. Now, in terms of the terrain supporting other types, would it be

8 more favourable to other types of military actions? Could you explain

9 that to the Trial Chamber.

10 A. Yes. And I would like to just use this picture here. This

11 terrain all through here had very small trails on it, but it was not

12 capable of supporting heavy artillery or any type of armoured vehicles.

13 Therefore, it was very easy for the light infantry-type forces that were

14 inside Srebrenica, the Muslim forces, to infiltrate in, infiltrate out, do

15 a quick raid, without being interdicted by artillery or other types of

16 indirect fire because the Serbs didn't know where they were and they

17 didn't have the capability of locating them.

18 Q. So in that sense would there actually be some advantage of time in

19 terms of the types of tactics for armed persons who knew the terrain, who

20 knew the back woods, persons who were carrying weapons that were lighter

21 than heavy artillery?

22 A. Very much so, and this was the one advantage that the Muslim

23 defenders did have. I didn't see any other advantages, but, you know,

24 being on foot and lightly armed and infiltrating in and out of the woods

25 give them a distinct advantage over the Serbs, who were set piece in their

Page 14980

1 offensive operations.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned yesterday something you referred to as dual

3 loyalty, protecting your own homeland, individually your house, your

4 homeland, and being with your force. Is that seen as a type of advantage

5 or is that just merely a factual situation, sir?

6 A. When you were fighting for your home, you have a lot more reason

7 to fight, and let me refine this even further. Soldiers a lot of times

8 don't fight for nebulous causes, they fight for their buddy, for their

9 small unit, for the honour of the -- and integrity of the group that they

10 are with and for that group's survival. That's where a soldier focusses.

11 And in this type of a conflict, that type of loyalty gets quickly necked

12 down to keeping you and your buddies and your families alive and you

13 really don't care a whole lot about the bigger picture.

14 Q. And yesterday you mentioned -- you gave a delineation of three

15 types of soldiers: There was the professional soldier, the reservists,

16 and then what you termed the type of citizen soldier?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Right. Now, could any of these three types of soldiers

19 participate in guerrilla tactics or the asymmetrical tactics you've

20 described?

21 A. That is correct. If a professional soldier could infiltrate in

22 and take over leadership of a group like that, he would be able to provide

23 them with more military expertise in how to carry out offensive and

24 defensive operations. However, I would like to note I did not see that in

25 Srebrenica.

Page 14981

1 Q. But my question goes to the following: Would any of those three

2 categories, if you were part of the enemy forces, would each or any of

3 these three categories be considered a soldier in terms of firing --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, firstly, already the witness has just

6 answered about what he actually saw in Srebrenica, and it's clear from

7 Ms. Sellers' question she's less interested in what he saw but in

8 speculating about something else. And secondly, in terms of terminology,

9 I object to any question in which basically some categorisation is imposed

10 on this witness. Perhaps he can be asked what he means by soldier. He

11 explained yesterday, if he needs to explain again. But he's gone through

12 this in detail yesterday.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: At the end of the day, Ms. Sellers, if he tells you:

14 Yes, I considered them as soldiers, would he have made them soldiers if

15 they were not?

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it would be his opinion after he gave

17 forth his explanation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but this is precisely where Mr. Jones was

19 right earlier on to an extent. I mean, this is where it becomes an

20 expertise because he didn't see this happening in the first place.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'll make it more concrete.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.


24 Q. Would you consider some of the men that you saw in Srebrenica, the

25 Muslim side, to be that category of citizen soldiers you described

Page 14982

1 yesterday?

2 A. I would prefer not to use the term soldier on them as military

3 combatant.

4 Q. Military combatant. Would you look at them as military combatants

5 as being legitimate military targets?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I would like to at this point going go back to your two

8 watchers or maybe as your relationship changed with them you would give --

9 ascribe to them a different title. Did they become the persons who

10 accompanied you?

11 A. I would use the term assistants, because that is exactly what they

12 did. Is they assisted me in accomplishing my job.

13 Q. Did they go around with you when you visited different parts of

14 the perimeters in order to find out where to make the drops of food?

15 A. Yes. I either had one or both of them with me. They provided

16 security for my person and they also assisted me in liaising with the

17 local people that I met with.

18 Q. Were they knowledgeable about the perimeters?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, are these perimeters the same thing that one could call the

21 defence lines or the lines between the two sides, the warring factions?

22 A. That is one way of putting it, yes. I would call it line of

23 conflict.

24 Q. Line of conflict. And you testified yesterday that to your

25 knowledge in Srebrenica that on those lines of conflict there was a

Page 14983

1 rotation of people to maintain the lines?

2 A. I wouldn't call it a formal rotation. One of the things I noticed

3 is that individual groups would go out and individual groups would come

4 back. And there wasn't a lot of cross-fertilisation within the town

5 between these different groups. So there wasn't what I would say a formal

6 rotation per se, but there seemed to be a gentlemen's agreement between

7 these different groups that we will be on for 24, 48, 72 hours and then

8 it's your turn.

9 Q. Is that a good military tactic to --

10 A. Of course.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please, I do appeal to you to show

12 consideration for the recorders and the interpreters. It is difficult.

13 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It is difficult.

15 MS. SELLERS: I apologise, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So please try to allow a pause between -- a short

17 pause between question and answer, otherwise we will have problems.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, could we just ask when you will be

19 taking a break?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be taking a break in five minutes' time.

21 That's the result, actually, of -- she is right -- Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Yes, just before Ms. Sellers puts a question. Again,

23 I object to the question of saying: Is that a good tactic. And

24 particularly in fact when there is such a rapid answer. It becomes

25 unclear what actually is being referred to. The witness said that he

Page 14984

1 noticed individual groups would go out and come back, a gentlemen's

2 agreement. So if Ms. Sellers is asking whether that is a good military

3 tactic, I again object that it's an expert question. But let's be clear

4 what the "it" refers to.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not an expert question; it's a question of

6 phrasing the question. I agree that as phrased I would accept your

7 objection, but it can be phrased -- you heard about this practice that was

8 being resorted to. Did you agree with it at the time? So -- and at that

9 point in time it's no longer an expert opinion; it becomes a very

10 legitimate question.

11 But I think we need to go back a little bit because we did not

12 have the entirety the witness's answer on the record. Let me try to

13 concentrate on this.

14 Lieutenant Colonel, please follow me and I would ask you to focus

15 on what's missing from your answer. Line 17 on the previous page,

16 page 42. Now are these perimeters the same ones -- the same one could

17 call the defence lines or the sides of warring factions?

18 "A. That is one way I would put it, yes.

19 "Q. Line of conflict. And you testified yesterday that to your

20 knowledge in Srebrenica that on those lines of conflict there was a

21 rotation of people to maintain the lines.

22 "A. I wouldn't call it a formal rotation. One of the things I

23 noticed is that individual groups would go out and individual groups would

24 come back, and there wasn't a lot of cross-fertilisation in town between

25 these two groups. So there wasn't a formal rotation, per se, but there

Page 14985

1 was a gentlemen's agreement that you will be on for 24" -- and I recall

2 hearing you say for 24, 42 -- 48 or 72 hours. And then you come back and

3 I take over.

4 Can you repeat that in your own words so that we integrate that

5 part of your testimony, please.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. What I said was I would see one

7 group spend 24, 48, or 72 hours upon the front lines. Then they would

8 come back and change out with another group who would be making their way

9 out to replace them. Because the communications were so poor, it was more

10 of a gentlemen's agreement that we'll be -- spend so much on the front

11 lines then it's your turn. However, I didn't see any official or very

12 coordinated rotation of forces from the front lines that you would see in

13 a professional military environment.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we had the objection. And we can follow-up

15 from there. And finish this question and we'll have a break. Thank you.


17 Q. Thank you. That rotation, whether it was done through a formal or

18 informal way, did that make good military sense to you to always have

19 someone on the front lines?

20 A. Of course. Because otherwise the enemy will quickly discover that

21 that area is not defended and use it to initiate offensive operations,

22 particularly if that area is thinly populated with enemy forces.

23 Q. Right.

24 MS. SELLERS: Then, Your Honour, I'll stop here.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a half an hour's break now, and

Page 14986

1 that means we'll resume just past 10.00. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 9.33 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.10 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. You may proceed, Ms. Sellers.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I'd like to continue on that same line

8 of questioning. You testified on direct examination the importance of

9 communication, communicating among military combatants, soldiers, or

10 fighters. Could you tell the Trial Chamber that given the terrain in the

11 Srebrenica area, what types of communication would be the most

12 advantageous or merely possible?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can you -- I think I can imagine what your

14 objection is. Can you rephrase your question, please? Because --

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, let me just state then -- let me ask --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to be specific.

17 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, would it be advantageous to use

19 hand-held Motorolas in communicating on terrain within the Srebrenica

20 enclave?

21 A. The Motorola radio was designed for short-range communications

22 with line of sight. Therefore, it was very inadequate and inappropriate

23 for military operations in the Srebrenica terrain.

24 Q. Would it be only appropriate if soldiers or fighters were within

25 range, sight range, of each other, but not necessary hearing range of each

Page 14987

1 other to use this type of apparatus?

2 A. Yes. The Motorola could be used for communications within the

3 same small unit as long as they didn't have a large hill or other physical

4 obstacle that would block the ability of the Motorolas to be a useful

5 communications device. In Srebrenica, I would say it would probably be

6 500 metres, maybe a thousand metres that the Motorola would be useful in

7 that type of environment.

8 Q. Would the environment in Srebrenica be conducive to placing radio

9 equipment on high altitudes in order to transmit communication?

10 A. Okay. Let's use my specific example. The first night we were in

11 the PTT building and also when we were trying to get into the enclave, we

12 tried to use our tactical satellite communications to get information out.

13 Because of the very narrow mountain valleys, we could not get line of

14 sight with the satellite that we needed to complete the link. Therefore,

15 in Srebrenica communications were difficult at best, and getting to high

16 ground was one of the key requirements for good communications.

17 Q. So the higher the ground, the better the communications between

18 persons, units, or forces? Would that be correct -- in the Srebrenica

19 area?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily -- yes, let me -- I personally

21 have -- would have an objection to that question as put, but I want to

22 hear what Mr. Jones has to say.

23 MR. JONES: Well, it's simply that that conclusion which

24 Ms. Sellers is drawing doesn't arise at all from the question -- the

25 answer which has been given, but I think the witness can probably clarify.

Page 14988

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Because, Ms. Sellers, if you're using an Motorola --

2 an ordinary Motorola --

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me. I can hear you better now

4 in my cold and --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you are using a Motorola, an ordinary Motorola,

6 between two persons, two individuals, which -- within the operative

7 distance for the purpose of a Motorola and within sight of each other, it

8 doesn't make a difference whether they are on top of a mountain or whether

9 they are down below in the valley, provided they can communicate with each

10 other and they are -- because they are within range of communicating. So

11 that is why your question, as put, is not acceptable. You need to

12 rephrase it.

13 Let --

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me, I used the term, and this

15 might show my lack of technical expertise in front of the witness --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which I can confirm --

17 MS. SELLERS: -- of radio equipment. And at this point I was

18 not -- I was thinking of other radio equipment where you have airwaves

19 and not Motorola. Excuse me for not being --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but then make it --


22 Q. Yes, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I'm now shifting from Motorolas.

23 I understood what you said about Motorolas needing some type of line of

24 sight or certain other distance. If we were talking about other types of

25 communication equipment, RUPs, there I'm asking would being on higher

Page 14989

1 ground be advantageous to this type of radio communication?

2 A. It depends on the communications device and the techniques that

3 you're using to communicate with. I'm going to give some specific

4 examples from within the pocket that will help clarify, I think, your

5 question.

6 Motorolas, of course, direct line of sight between one Motorola

7 and another. Large hill, building, et cetera, will interrupt that

8 communications. Each communication device is also limited by its

9 capabilities. A tactical satellite could communicate just about anywhere

10 in the world, as long as we could have a link to the satellite. In Bosnia

11 the UNPROFOR forces were using radios that required to be bounced off the

12 atmosphere and then back down to another location. And atmospherics had a

13 lot to do with their ability to communicate. However, they were the

14 perfect piece of equipment in hilly, rugged terrain because they could

15 bounce off the atmosphere and not through a hill. So it depends on the

16 device you're using on where you can communicate from and how effectively.

17 Q. You testified --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And also if I may interrupt you. Also repeaters, or

19 the existence of repeaters would make all the difference?

20 THE WITNESS: That is absolutely right, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


23 Q. Could you now tell us in regard to your testimony yesterday about

24 ham radios. I'm just asking about the capacity of communication with ham

25 radios. What type of range do you think could be reached within the

Page 14990

1 Srebrenica area?

2 A. The ham radio is not designed for short-range communications; it

3 requires atmospheric balance. And therefore, communicating inside the

4 pocket from one ham radio operator to another would not be very

5 advantageous. The other key problem with using a ham radio, an unsecure

6 ham radio, is the enemy can intercept every single word you utter,

7 therefore, you would have no privacy particularly for military

8 communications. So therefore it was very inadequate for that purpose.

9 Q. And because of problems that could arise by one side hearing the

10 communications of the others, is it advantageous to you to use codes, such

11 as letters or numbers?

12 A. Two parts to that answer. First off I would try never to use

13 unsecure means of communications in a combat environment, ever, because I

14 don't want the enemy to be able to target my location and therefore maybe

15 drop an artillery round on me or find out where I'm operating, what

16 location I'm operating at. You can intercept other types of

17 communications, but short bursts before the enemy can acquire your

18 location is important for survival.

19 The second part, even using codes and numbers can be intercepted

20 and deciphered. Therefore, you would prefer not to even use codes, if you

21 can help it.

22 But, yes, if I had to work in an unsecure mode, I would have very

23 short bursts and I would use key words and/or numbers to indicate a

24 specific pre-arranged military activity.

25 Q. In view of what you've just testified about, the caution that one

Page 14991

1 takes, would changing the radio frequency, if you had to use radio

2 frequency that could be intercepted, would that also be a reasonable means

3 of trying to evade having your messages detected?

4 A. Most definitely, yes. And more frequently you change them, the

5 harder it is to intercept them.

6 Q. I'd like to ask now about a form of communications that you

7 testified about yesterday, and that's couriers. Would you tell the Trial

8 Chamber what you mean by couriers.

9 A. In a combat environment where you lack encrypted communications

10 devices or you have a difficulty in communicating because of the terrain,

11 couriers provide a secure means of getting messages from one commander to

12 another commander as long as the people who are sending the messages can

13 put it effectively in writing. The problem with couriers is they can be

14 intercepted and/or killed and they are also very slow, particularly if

15 they are travelling on foot. Therefore, it means for a very slow reaction

16 by friendly forces in support of each other.

17 Q. Would it be advantageous with a courier, use of couriers or

18 courier system, that the person be very familiar with the terrain?

19 A. He must be because if he gets lost and falls into enemy hands,

20 then he and his message have been compromised.

21 Q. Is it possible, given certain circumstances, that a courier would

22 transmit oral communication as opposed to a written communication?

23 A. Of course. However, fatigue and other combat environments makes

24 for inaccurate transmission of orders, as we saw in earlier centuries of

25 military units. Therefore, I would commit my message in writing whenever

Page 14992

1 possible to make sure that my exact intentions had been communicated.

2 Q. And speaking of that, you've mentioned commands. Now, commands

3 are often - and correct me if I'm wrong - given in written form?

4 A. That is correct. And you want to be very specific in your written

5 communications so that there's no question as to what your intent is.

6 Q. Now, a command in a written form, could that be either by

7 handwriting or by writing with a typewriter or any other device --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones -- before you answer, Lieutenant,

9 please --

10 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, Your Honour, the last 12 questions or so

11 are all completely an abstract discussion on commands and various systems

12 which might exist. I haven't seen a single specific question dealing with

13 anything which this witness observed in Srebrenica. A lot of it anyway is

14 axiomatic as to what might be advantageous and what might not be. I

15 really don't see any questions which are specifically for this witness and

16 within what he's testified about as having seen and observed in

17 Srebrenica.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we -- I have to uphold Mr. Jones'

19 objection, of course. But on the other hand, why do you ask the witness

20 whether a command in a written form could be either handwritten or by

21 writing with a typewriter or any other -- of course it could be with

22 whatever is available at the time.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't think -- do you require Lieutenant

25 Colonel Dudley to tell you how a written message could be created?

Page 14993

1 MS. SELLERS: Well, Your Honour, if Lieutenant Colonel Dudley

2 would like to, yes, but I'm happy to accept the proposition. I can move

3 on. We're still in the realm of communication within this --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But, what I mean to say, Ms. Sellers, is this:

5 That, yes, of course communication can be handwritten. Yes, of course, it

6 could be typed out. Yes, of course, it could be --

7 MS. SELLERS: Oral?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is if you don't have a typewriter

9 available, you cannot type it out. And if you don't have paper available,

10 you cannot write it out.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would agree with that proposition,

12 yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So the essence of the whole thing that we are

14 discussing, basically, in the context of the rest of the evidence that

15 we've had is what was possible at the time and what was actually done at

16 the time.

17 MS. SELLERS: Okay. Your Honour, then we will --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

19 MS. SELLERS: -- continue on.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That he could know of.

21 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Because basically I don't know if he is in the

23 position to tell us whether there was any paper available, whether there

24 was any typewriter, were any type writers available or any computers, what

25 type of typewriters, mechanical or electrical ones at the time. I don't

Page 14994

1 know.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to ask one more absurd

3 question, and I'll move right on to an exhibit.

4 Q. If an order is written on a back of a paper that has previously

5 been used, does that in any way diminish the impact of the validity of the

6 order to your knowledge?

7 A. Specify what was written on it before. Was it crossed out and

8 made sure that that wasn't the piece of communication?

9 Q. For example, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: Is this witness really being asked to comment on

12 whether an order would be valid if it's written on the back of another

13 piece of paper completely in the abstract without considering which army,

14 what circumstances, what time?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you, Mr. Jones.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, then I'll move to my next exhibit.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so. I think we are wasting time on

18 this, Ms. Sellers.

19 MS. SELLERS: If you'll just allow me one minute, please.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's like beauty, Ms. Sellers. Beauty is in the eye

22 of the beholder. So Lieutenant Colonel Dudley might give it importance;

23 someone else might not. And say what kind of message this is.

24 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. I would now ask that we're going to look

25 at P446. I believe it's going to be brought up on Sanctions, Your Honour.

Page 14995

1 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I would ask you to watch your screen?

2 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: Yes. We would appreciate if the witness would see the

5 original as well and not just a translation. Actually, I can see the

6 original document -- oh, sorry, it's a video.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a video, yeah.

8 MR. JONES: Okay. We weren't seeing it. But that's also for

9 future reference for any of these documents. We want him to see the B/C/S

10 original. I accept this is a video.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's proceed, please.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I don't -- on our screen we actually have

14 the name -- a name of a person appearing there, and I don't think --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes --

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I make it clear that I'm not

17 using the transcript at all. This will be completely visual, and I will

18 not be asking about identification of any people within this video.

19 MR. JONES: Surely there's a way of showing it without the

20 transcript.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I would definitely prefer to have this video

22 shown without the transcript because the transcript doesn't serve only to

23 identifying anyone who may be speaking there, but it also contains other

24 matters. And I don't know what your question is going to be, obviously.

25 MS. SELLERS: Right. Your Honour, I will be asking about objects,

Page 14996

1 and I would like to say at this point in time it would be rather difficult

2 to remove the transcript. I wonder could I ask the witness to only look

3 at the picture and to please not focus on the transcript. And as I've

4 given assurances to both Defence counsel and Your Honours, there will be

5 no --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

7 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

8 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, do you see in the lower left-corner of

9 this picture what appears to be a typewriter? Would you look closely.

10 A. Yes, it could be a typewriter. It could be something else also.

11 MS. SELLERS: I'm going to ask we move backwards just a tiny bit

12 and go forward again.


14 [Videotape played]


16 THE WITNESS: It appears to be a typewriter.


18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. SELLERS: Could we continue to roll the film.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, do you see on the desk and basically

23 positioned to the middle of this video clip what appears to be either

24 books or papers?

25 A. I see papers on the desk, and I see a square/rectangular dark

Page 14997

1 brown/black object.

2 MS. SELLERS: We'll continue.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, do you now see what appears to be

6 another array of papers laying on the desk in front of the person?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. Does the person appear to be hand -- holding something in their

9 hand?

10 A. They appear to be holding a pen or a pencil.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, now I'd like to ask some other

14 questions, again related to what you've testified concerning military

15 tactics or guerrilla warfare. Because a group, unit, might be using

16 guerrilla warfare, does that mean that they do not have to plan those

17 actions?

18 A. No. All actions should be planned in advance, particularly

19 contingency actions, because you never know what's going to happen in

20 warfare. The more time you have to plan, the more prepared your forces

21 are to conduct that operation.

22 Q. Now, when you spoke to your assistants, Senad and Zele, did they

23 ever talk to you about the planning of any of the actions that they went

24 on?

25 A. No. I'd like to make a specific statement at this time.

Page 14998

1 Q. Certainly, sir.

2 A. I wanted to see the command centre so I could coordinate with the

3 key leadership, and I was never able to do that. So I don't know any

4 planning or other military coordination that took place inside the pocket

5 while I was there.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you've spoken about a variety of types of

7 acts, whether they be communications, ambushes, blocking lines of

8 communication, and raids. Now, would all of those types of acts lend

9 themselves to planning operations?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: Yes. I simply don't understand the question. "Would

12 they lend themselves to planning operations?" And surely the question is:

13 Were these planned or something. I don't mean -- aren't we interested in

14 this witness's testimony about what he actually experienced and saw in

15 Srebrenica? He's explained: "I don't know any planning or any other

16 military coordination that took place inside the pocket while I was

17 there." And now he's asked this question: "Would these types of acts lend

18 themselves to planning operations?" I simply don't understand what that

19 means.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think I would have to agree with you,

21 Mr. Jones.

22 The question itself is not clear, Ms. Sellers. I'll read it out

23 to you.

24 MS. SELLERS: Could I rephrase it, Your Honour, then.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, certainly.

Page 14999


2 Q. Could these type of acts be planned?

3 A. They're -- in military operations, there are spontaneous and

4 planned operations. And so when you're planning something like an ambush

5 you try to do it as detailed as possible so you don't get ambushed

6 yourself. Blocking lines of communication is something you can plan or,

7 again, take advantage of a target of opportunity. The same thing with

8 raids. You usually try to plan them, but if you have a target of

9 opportunity, you can conduct them as unplanned operations. From what I

10 saw in the pocket, minimal planning took place based on the exhaustion of

11 the combatants inside the pocket. Were they probably - and this is an

12 assumption, not a fact - trying to conduct some type of military planning?

13 Yes.

14 Q. And in terms of conducting military planning, would that be the

15 role -- would that usually be the role of persons in positions of command?

16 A. The actual planning does not take place with the person in

17 command.


19 THE WITNESS: You have a staff that you give them your concept of

20 the operation and that you go out and lead, and they stay back and do the

21 planning, they present the plan to you. You either approve it or modify

22 it or disapprove it. That's the normal military operations.

23 However, in the case of the personnel inside the pocket, I've

24 stated many times before, they were untrained military people. Therefore,

25 their planning would be not well-conducted at best, based on their

Page 15000

1 operational experience.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you still have an objection, Mr. Jones, or not?

3 MR. JONES: It's just the questions alternate back and forth

4 between questions about the pocket and then abstract questions. And that

5 was a typical example. The witness had said that in the pocket they were

6 trying to conduct some type of planning. And then Ms. Sellers goes on to

7 ask a question about whether generally leaving Srebrenica aside in the

8 abstract whether the people in command would plan that, and I don't think

9 it's fair -- we're not going to get the best evidence from this witness.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness has understood this perfectly

11 well. And in fact when he is being asked what appeared to be partly

12 abstract questions, to say the least, he does convert them to what his

13 actual experience on the ground was.

14 MR. JONES: Yes, that helps.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please take that into consideration.

16 Ms. Sellers.

17 MS. SELLERS: Not unless we need to correct the transcript, I

18 don't see where I said "leaving Srebrenica aside."

19 Q. But I believe, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, you've understood my

20 question up until --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he did, Ms. Sellers.

22 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask the witness to be

23 shown P84, Your Honour.

24 MR. JONES: And we'd like him to see the original, just for

25 comparison as well.

Page 15001

1 MS. SELLERS: Right. I'm going to ask for P84 on page 4 in the

2 English version. It's under the ERN number 02115046.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, I do want to make sure the witness can see the

5 original.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't see from here of course. Is he being shown

7 the original? I don't think so. I think that's a photocopy that we have

8 there.

9 MS. SELLERS: Does counsel mean the B/C/S version?

10 MR. JONES: Yes, I'd like him to see the B/C/S. He's been asked

11 questions about handwritten, typing, and all the rest of it, so I think

12 it's only fair that he sees the original.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we can have that problem solved easily

14 if on the -- on Sanction we have on one side the B/C/S version and on the

15 otherwise the corresponding page in English.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That has been done in the past.

18 MS. SELLERS: It has. We do not have -- we have not put this in

19 Sanctions at this time period.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

21 MR. JONES: As long as he can just consult the original as he has

22 done just to see what -- what document we're talking about, then that's

23 fine.

24 THE WITNESS: One moment, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And if both documents could be put, at least for a

Page 15002

1 short time, on the ELMO, so that we ourselves can confirm what is being

2 shown.


4 Q. Maybe we can do it by ERN number.

5 A. Format for me is very important.

6 Q. The ERN number -- okay. Fine.

7 [Prosecution counsel and usher confer]

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I speak to the usher for just one

9 second?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

11 [Prosecution counsel and usher confer]

12 [Witness and usher confer]

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I ask Madam Vidovic possibly to

14 look at this issue for us so we won't confuse the Defence witness. And

15 it's just the order of the page and the B/C/S. If the usher could show

16 that to the witness.

17 THE WITNESS: Okay. May I ask a question, please, Your Honour?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

19 THE WITNESS: Is this a Serb intercepted message or is this an

20 original command/staff publication?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll certainly not tell you what it is, Lieutenant

22 Colonel, because that's a question that needs to be answered by us later

23 on or decided later on.

24 MS. SELLERS: From the Prosecution's point of view -- might I

25 explain?

Page 15003

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, from the Prosecution's point of view --

2 MS. SELLERS: From the Prosecution's --

3 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I object to that because it's in

4 dispute the status of this document. And I don't know if it's -- if that

5 in fact will be the Prosecution giving evidence as to what this document

6 is. If he can just comment on the face of it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let her present to him their point of view of what

8 they are facing. And then of course once he has drawn this distinction

9 between a possibly Serb intercepted document and something else, I mean I

10 will give you all the opportunity to cross-examine him.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, from the Prosecution's point of view

12 and I think we've often introduced documents to witnesses saying what

13 appears to be their title on the front page, and I'm doing no more than

14 that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

16 MS. SELLERS: If this is a Territorial Defence Municipal Staff of

17 Srebrenica, the memo pad, and for the Territorial Defence officers. And

18 then we have a series of what appears to be minutes to the meetings that

19 the Territorial Defence officers have attended and that someone has noted

20 down. So this is not a Serb intercept.

21 THE WITNESS: Okay. So this is a record of a meeting?

22 MS. SELLERS: Record --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it like that. That's what the Prosecution

24 claims.


Page 15004

1 Q. Sir, I would draw your attention to the English page 4, and I'm

2 starting at the bottom of page 4. I would just like to read that. There

3 is one part where it says: "Akif, they are not fortified," that's a

4 contested word, "Gornja Rijeka - the bridge. There is one bunker on the

5 Serbian side and three bunkers on the Bosnian side. 50 of my men ...

6 Poloznik 8, Senahid 10. I will set the ambush near the water. Mist does

7 not clear until 1100 [sic] hours. Attack at 1100 hours. That area cannot

8 be held. Do not set fire until everything has been taken out. It takes a

9 full three hours to get to the place where the wounded will be taken over

10 in a vehicle. Move the unit once the goods have been collected. I will

11 take control of the hour -- of the area in one hour."

12 And then: "Send an ultimatum to Serbia not to open fire.

13 Confiscate the collected goods from the smugglers and set up a warehouse."

14 The document goes on, and I am now referring to after the next ERN

15 number 02115047. It says: "Boat crossings will be covered by an

16 anti-aircraft machine-gun. At the end of the operation, destroy the

17 ferry. It would not be good for withdrawal if they stayed in their

18 houses, in the field. There must be a medical technician in this group.

19 A doctor in Jagodnja. Nedret is to work out a schedule."

20 This part continues down and now I'm reading number 5: "There is

21 a way and the area must be kept under control. We have to carry out this

22 operation because of the food. Ahmo has to recognise the coverage of the

23 area."

24 And then number 9 it says: "Communications: The military police

25 must take mobile radio transmitters and walkie-talkies. They must be

Page 15005

1 distributed. The command post is at the anti-aircraft machine-gun site.

2 The password is the same (Bosna-Dzihad)."

3 And then it lists the number of troops with several names.

4 My question --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text be put on the ELMO, please, for

6 the interpreters.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we were told earlier that this will be

8 on Sanction.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen it on Sanction.

11 MS. SELLERS: It's on the ELMO, Your Honour, it's not on

12 Sanctions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it on the ELMO? Because on the ELMO what I can

14 see is something completely different.

15 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. We would have to put it on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number one.

17 And secondly, Madam Vidovic, did you have an objection or a remark

18 to make?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask the

21 Prosecutor to read as it is written without inventing that "military

22 police" is written where it isn't and that there are means of

23 communication that don't exist.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I offer my apologies. That is a

25 misreading and I do not intend to mislead the witness. "Communications" --

Page 15006

1 in my translation I have: "The military police must take mobile radio

2 transmitters and walkie-talkies. They must be distributed. The command

3 post is at the anti-aircraft machine-gun site. The password is the same

4 (Bosna Dzihad). Number of troops" --

5 MR. JONES: In the Bosnian it has "VP" and it has "KM," so it

6 doesn't have military police, it doesn't have command post. That's --


8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you there. But we need to check it.

10 If you're going to put a question to the witness precisely on this part of

11 the document, then we need to know with precision what it says in its

12 original version.

13 MS. SELLERS: Right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So could we have on the ELMO the original version,

15 that particular paragraph, please.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that the --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the practice here is that someone reads

18 out and the interpreters translate, unless the interpreters can read it

19 out themselves and translate directly. What I see is that the VP -- V

20 could be superimposed on an O. Then O/C, I don't know, PAM, which we have

21 heard about in the past. That is an anti-aircraft gun. "KM," which I

22 don't know what it is.

23 So if you could -- usually, Madam Vidovic, you would stand up and

24 help us read what you can see and then the interpreters will translate.

25 But of course I cannot force you to do that.

Page 15007

1 MS. SELLERS: I would welcome Madam Vidovic to do that. The

2 Prosecution certainly sees on the original it says "VP." I believe that

3 VP has been translated into the two phrases that I used. I certainly --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I also saw C -- what looks like a V and

5 an O, one on top of the other.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: So I wouldn't rush to say it's a VP or an OP. I

8 don't know.

9 MS. SELLERS: And I think -- the issue I'd like to raise, with all

10 due respect, Your Honour, is that if we just -- if I just included what

11 was written in the document here "VP" and then "KM" would that satisfy the

12 Defence? Because at this point it's -- what does "VP" or "KM" mean? I

13 think that's the issue.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's up to you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. I would not

16 be happy with that. You know that I always accept that it is written "VP"

17 when it really is. It isn't the case here. What has been described by

18 the Prosecutor was some communication device differently than it is

19 described here.

20 We have already discussed here, but the Prosecutor is simply not

21 trying to incorporate the objections we've already made and agreed on, and

22 we are in a position now to discuss it in front of a witness and agree

23 upon it without the witness, who is the least called upon to do so.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, we are not agreeing on anything. What

25 would OP mean? What would OP mean? Does it -- would it have a meaning,

Page 15008

1 the acronym OP in Bosnian Serbo-Croat?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It could mean many things, like an

3 operations job, Osman Pavlovic, a name, and so on and so forth.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you, Ms. Sellers, because --

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I will let it stand as is.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Because at this point in time I cannot agree with

7 you that we have VP and not OP here. What I see is what seems to be O for

8 sure, and then either a V or a Y, because it could also be a Y, but I

9 think it would be a little bit strange in that language to have a Y. So I

10 think it's either OP or VP.

11 And then KM, I don't think there should be difficulty in

12 establishing what KM stands for. PAM, also I don't think -- there should

13 not be any difficulty at all. And then "toki-voki" is a version of

14 walkie-talkie, I take it.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, since at this point in time I know that

16 we have a list of different acronyms, and I don't necessarily want to

17 discuss this in front of the witness, we might bring this up in a

18 different session, and I don't think that at this point in time the list

19 has been agreed upon between the Defence and the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet.

21 MS. SELLERS: And it is a provisional list of which some of the

22 terminology we are speaking on is in. But for questions of expediency, I

23 can say that -- let's say VOP must take the mobile radio transmitters.

24 And we will not in any way say that it says VP, or OP or VOP. I would

25 just like to move on, because I really think that that's not the main

Page 15009

1 issue of the Prosecution at this point, that I would like to point out and

2 be more than willing, if the Defence finds it to be amenable, to withdraw

3 that part of this testimony under number 9.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I was taught many years ago actually to decide what

5 I want before I proceed any further. What do you want in relation to --

6 what do you want from the witness in relation to this part of the text?

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the only thing --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to establish whether there were

9 walkie-talkies? Whether there were --

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I only want to establish that it

11 appears that there was planning in terms of communication, in terms of

12 sabotage, in terms of other things.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then forget about whether it's OP or VP, because at

14 the end of the day we are not discussing with the witness the existence or

15 otherwise of military police or any other thing that could be called OP.

16 MS. SELLERS: Not at all.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So go straight to what you need to obtain or seek to

18 obtain from the witness and we call it a day.


20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I would ask you from the parts of this

21 memo pad that I've just read, is this in line with the type of planning

22 one would do for actions that included ambush, sabotage, and

23 communications?

24 A. Can I have a few minutes, Your Honour, to actually study the

25 document?

Page 15010

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means, please.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while the witness is

3 reading I just wish to say that this English translation here reads in a

4 different way. It simply says something that does not feature in the

5 original. It doesn't even say "extension military police." It simply

6 says "military police." And that's the -- our general problem with the

7 use of this text.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's not jump the gun. I mean, I fully

9 understand the point that you have raised that permeates this and other

10 documents, but let's wait for the witness reaction to the question that

11 was put to him. We have a general question or a question of a general --

12 generic nature other than a specific one.

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I've read the document and understand

14 it and in as best as it was translated. I would now request that the

15 Prosecution restate their question and let me switch so I can see it in

16 writing, please.

17 MS. SELLERS: All right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understood him, he wants to go on transcript

19 mode? Is he in transcript mode? Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have the question here, it's still on

21 my transcript.

22 Q. And I said: "Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I would ask you from the

23 parts of this memo pad that I've just read, is this in line with the type

24 of planning one would do for actions that would included ambush, sabotage,

25 and communications?"

Page 15011

1 And I mean in terms of what you described as guerrilla tactics.

2 A. This would -- if it was an operations order, it would be very

3 poorly written. It sounds more like a discussion, and it looks like an

4 intercepted discussion. I would say that this was designed to be a

5 small-level unit raid. And one of the key notes that I have here is that

6 they have moved from a discussion to a list of possible troops to

7 participate in the operation. And if it is a discussion and it was

8 intercepted - and this appears to be intercepted - then they were using

9 non-secure means, which is very sloppy for military operations. Those are

10 my conclusions from looking at this document.

11 Q. And if this were not intercepted, does that change your opinion of

12 what it said, sir?

13 A. It looks like it's going to be a small-unit raid.

14 Q. Now, I would like to ask Lieutenant Colonel Dudley to turn to what

15 is page 26 in the English version of the document. Again, I think you

16 might want to put the B/C/S on the ELMO. And, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley,

17 yesterday you testified to questions of morale that were important with

18 all troops. Is that correct?

19 A. That is very correct.

20 Q. And that morale during wartime is something that had to be

21 maintained in order to keep your fighting forces efficient as possible?

22 A. I would use the term "effective."

23 Q. And you did state that probably one of more demoralising things

24 that you witnessed in Srebrenica was the war hospital, that might have

25 been bad for troop morale?

Page 15012

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Now, if commanders had to send -- were obligated to have their

3 troops go to that hospital, would one of the ways of lifting the morale be

4 to at least consistently visit any of your troops that had been wounded in

5 actions at that hospital?

6 A. As much as times allowed, yes. A commander thanking his troops

7 for its service and the troops understanding that the commander is

8 concerned about their health and welfare, yes, that's an important concept

9 of morale. The other key thing is that if the commander is suffering the

10 same deprivations as his troops, that is also a key component to good

11 morale.

12 Q. And could I add that would probably be a key component to good --

13 being a good commander and an effective commander?

14 A. Not necessarily effective, but what I would call a good

15 commander. Let me rephrase that one.

16 Q. Certainly, sir.

17 A. A good commander, whether experienced or not, takes care of his

18 men. That doesn't mean that he understands all the military requirements

19 of a commander, but he is being a good leader by caring about the welfare

20 of his men who serve under him or with him.

21 Q. Thank you. I would now turn your attention to page 26, and in the

22 English version, sir, I believe it's on the ELMO now, under number 3 --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. -- what's the corresponding page in

24 B/C/S?

25 MS. SELLERS: The ERN in B/C/S, Your Honour -- ERN --

Page 15013

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I see it 02115077 [Realtime transcript read in error

2 "021155"]

3 MS. SELLERS: 0211075 [sic].

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct? Okay. So can we have it on the

5 ELMO as well at least for a short while? Yeah. No, no, it's 02115077.

6 Yeah, it's wrong on the -- yeah, on the --

7 MS. SELLERS: It's 75.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the correct one.

9 MS. SELLERS: It's right before it comes to --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, okay.

11 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, it's 76. It would be at the bottom of

12 that page.

13 Your Honour, might I continue to read in the English?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So it's 5076 that we need to look at

15 from the B/C/S approach?

16 MS. SELLERS: Right. Page 26 in the English.


18 MS. SELLERS: And I'm looking under the number 3 where it says --

19 Q. And, sir, you might want to follow along if you can in the English

20 version where it says - and, sir, you might want to follow along if you

21 can in the English version - where it says: "Military activities."

22 A. "Number 3: Military activities," I am following.

23 Q. Yes. "Operations have stopped.

24 "The failure of Bedem has completely thrown us off track. We

25 must not allow failure in one operation to affect us so much.

Page 15014

1 "This is also a warning that from now on, the leaders must not be

2 direct participants as well.

3 "In our situation, we must have strategic goals whose achievement

4 is necessary for our survival. Haphazard planning and conduct of

5 operations leads only to the exhaustion of our capacities without any

6 effect. (What is the value of free territory if we are besieged?)

7 "Morale and the political situation in units.

8 "The relationships between commanders, personnel, and the staff."

9 My question to you, after reading that part: Even when

10 undertaking small unit raids or guerrilla warfare, does this reflect the

11 type of concern that leaders and commanders have to have for morale,

12 particularly after an operation is not successful?

13 A. I'm going to qualify that question. This looks like an

14 after-action review of an operation that went bad. Bedem, to me, looks

15 like the code name for that operation. Yes, these concerns that are

16 expressed could be the concerns of any commander or leadership group

17 concerned about keeping their organisation together after a bad operation,

18 particularly when they have very limited resources.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm going to continue now -- I'm still on page 26

20 in the English, and I'll be going over to page 27. And if you could

21 follow along at the end of page 26 we see that we have now the minutes of

22 the Srebrenica OS staff meeting held on the 22nd of November, 1992, and

23 under Roman numeral I it says: "The failure of the Bedem operation has

24 had a negative impact on us. But we must continue to plan and carry out

25 operations. We should attack Kunjerac and Radijevici for food. This

Page 15015

1 would not have to be a big operation but a small one. The same applies to

2 Cosici.

3 "Radijevici-Bjelovac (Kunjerac), carry out the operation

4 simultaneously.

5 "Ramiz: A unit consisting of 50 to 70 men should be formed for

6 these small operations.

7 "Naser: The situation in Glogova has been reconnoitred, and the

8 operations there should be carried out simultaneously with Kunjerac

9 (Bjelovac).

10 "Hamed: I agree with Ramiz.

11 "Suljo: I support Hamed and Ramiz.

12 "Zijad to reconnoitre Radijevici.

13 "Ahmo and Sakib to reconnoitre Cosici.

14 "Mido to reconnoitre Bjelovac.

15 "Glogova has been reconnoitred.

16 "Naser undertakes to form an elite platoon.

17 "Hazim will reconnoitre Voljevica.

18 "Sabotage the bus before the above operations.

19 "Continue activity.

20 "Sabotage operations to continue simultaneously."

21 Now, my question to you is that from what I've just read, would

22 that be in line with continuing types of guerrilla military tactics after

23 a defeat and the proper planning of such?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, it's just -- we are purely in the

Page 15016

1 realm of what would be expert testimony here. These are events from

2 November 1992. The witness isn't being asked anything about what he knew

3 in the pocket at all, and if it's the case that we can simply go through

4 every single document which has been introduced as exhibits and put in

5 front of the witness as an expert and say does this show that, does this

6 show the other, and the witness is being used for a purpose entirely

7 different from what -- from why he was brought here.

8 This exercise that Ms. Sellers is conducting can be conducted with

9 absolutely any document in the trial because he's not being asked about

10 his own knowledge, about his own experience, whether he knows anything

11 about these events. He's simply being put propositions, hypotheticals,

12 what conclusions would he draw. I agree if an expert were here who was

13 giving evidence -- that would be one thing. And if the Prosecution's

14 position answer is, well, he has expertise, that's not an answer. He is

15 not an expert witness. I have to insist on that. Because if he is, it's

16 entirely a different exercise.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I respond?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

19 MS. SELLERS: Well, I believe on direct examination this witness

20 was led to testify that he gave advice to the groups that were in the

21 Srebrenica pocket. He was giving advice to them concerning the front

22 lines in terms of the parameters [sic]. And we briefly went over that

23 today. And he heard about the different types of actions they would

24 undertake for raids. I'm merely relating some of the information or

25 evidence that we have concerning actions and asking him as someone who was

Page 15017

1 giving advice to them: What would this mean? Does it fit into this

2 framework of advice that he had been giving before. I think that's

3 entirely appropriate.

4 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour. Certainly the witness can be asked

5 about the advice he gave; he's spoken about that. But if the Prosecution

6 wants to cross-examine about the advice he gave in March 1993, certainly I

7 have no objection to that. And if he's asked whether he knows about these

8 raids which were referred to here, again that's a matter -- and if the

9 Prosecution were interested in this witness's knowledge they would ask him

10 first of all: Do you know anything about these events on 22 November

11 1992. Do you know anything about Kunjerac, Bjelovac, Radijevici? It's

12 precisely that he doesn't know anything about that those questions are not

13 being put.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Basically, Ms. Sellers, Mr. Jones, we --

16 the way we see it, we are travelling on a very tight rope here and the

17 line of demarcation between expert -- what would be expert testimony and

18 ordinary testimony has become so fine that we do need to draw a line

19 somewhere.

20 Your question borders precisely on this and tends to fall more on

21 the expert side, expert testimony side, than not, although not completely.

22 So what we suggest is that you rephrase your question and ask the witness

23 whether what he has read here corresponds with what he came to know when

24 he arrived in Srebrenica on his -- the intelligence that he had of the

25 events prior to his arrival, because we're talking of October, November

Page 15018

1 here of the previous year.

2 MS. SELLERS: Right. Thank you, Your Honour. I guess that

3 Defence and Prosecution can appreciate what it means to be on the front

4 line right now and back to the witness's hand.

5 Q. What we have read in this previous section in relationship to

6 Judge Agius' question, how does this correspond to the intelligence that

7 you had concerning the planning, communications, intelligence, and morale

8 of the troops, the Muslim troops in Srebrenica?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I -- one moment, Ms. Sellers, because I

10 recognise Mr. Clifton Johnson on his feet.

11 Let's go into private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15019











11 Page 15019 redacted. Private session.















Page 15020

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.

15 Ms. Sellers, you may proceed.


17 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I believe that you've been asked

18 several times now that the question will be: From what we've just read to

19 compare that to your assessment, your knowledge at the time period you

20 were in Srebrenica as to how this would compare to planning,

21 communications, information that you had.

22 A. Okay. Before I go further, looking at one small snippet of

23 information does not allow me to grasp a big picture of a military

24 capability. I would want to see several days of transcripts and a map of

25 the operational area and the approximate forces participating on both

Page 15021

1 sides so that I could do a decent analysis. This does not give me enough

2 information that I need to say yes or no as to those capabilities. I will

3 go back to Srebrenica when I was there 11 through 28 March, 1993. Looking

4 at the capability of the fighters on the ground at that time, they were

5 not capable of well-coordinated operations, particularly conducting

6 multiple raids at multiple locations in coordination with each other.

7 They were too exhausted and too ill-equipped to be effective against the

8 Serb forces in that area.

9 Q. Yes. And from what we have read out in my past several questions,

10 does that appear to you to contrast, this undertaking of different raids,

11 contrast with the forces or soldiers that you saw in the time period when

12 you arrived in Srebrenica?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what's the problem?

14 MR. JONES: Well, I hardly think it's fair to the witness. He's

15 just said that a snippet doesn't enable him to comment, that he would need

16 to see several days of transcripts in the operational area and approximate

17 forces, and he's been asked again still to do that. And he's said that he

18 doesn't -- [cannot distinguish between speakers because of overlap] -- I

19 don't see why he should be forced --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already answered this question, and I

21 mean he attributes in his mind the incapacity of the ground forces that he

22 knew of to carry out raids because of the fatigue and whatever else,

23 because I don't want to use words that he may not have used. But I think

24 we have the answer to that question already.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that was the time period. I was asking

Page 15022

1 for a contrast, and it appears to me that the witness would want to have

2 several other portions read out to him, which I -- for periods of time for

3 the cross-examination would be rather difficult, but I think he's saying

4 that he would need more information prior to making the assessment.

5 Q. Am I correct?

6 A. That is correct.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser would like to put a question.

8 JUDGE ESER: I just want to make clear. Is the witness be aware

9 that the question was not comparing the situation which you got to know in

10 March and with the actual situation at that time, but to compare March

11 1993 with the alleged events which took -- have -- has been reported about

12 and that -- in November of 1992? You are aware of this difference of

13 time?

14 THE WITNESS: Looking -- yes, Your Honour. Looking at the top of

15 the transcript, I was able to figure out -- we were talking about November

16 1992, because that was the date on the transcript. My concern here is I

17 am familiar with many different types of military operations to include

18 disinformation operations, and I would like to know how this was

19 communicated. Was it intercepted? Was it written as part of a meeting?

20 Who was it intended for? I've got to get some more details before I can

21 make an honest assessment of this document.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Lieutenant Colonel.

23 I think you have -- you have this problem and you have to live

24 with it, Ms. Sellers.

25 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I will not be able to assist the

Page 15023

1 witness in this matter.

2 I would, then, like to move on to some other documents. I would

3 ask that the witness could be shown P3.

4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, you have before you a document that is

5 dated Srebrenica, the 18th of October, 1992, confidential. And then under

6 number 2 it says: "I order to establish in full by the 25th of October

7 constant communications by couriers and communications met from lower

8 units to higher units and suggest in accordance with the military

9 organisation and establishment structure, as defined by order

10 number 2892."

11 My question to you --

12 MR. JONES: Can he be shown the original. That was my request at

13 the outset, for all of these he sees the B/C/S.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Jones. I think we have that

15 request, and I see the witness indicating to me that he has it. Thank

16 you.


18 Q. Sir, do you have the original in B/C/S? I believe that's what the

19 Defence counsel wanted to ask.

20 A. That is correct. I have it in front of me.

21 Q. So, sir, my question to you in particular for paragraph number 2

22 is that in terms of the Srebrenica enclave, was the establishment of a

23 communications by courier something that would be favourable to the

24 terrain according to your experience in Srebrenica?

25 A. I'm going to -- have to go back and restate a few things and then

Page 15024

1 I'll answer your question.

2 Q. Certainly.

3 A. As I stated earlier, C3I, or command, control, communications, and

4 intelligence, are all vital parts of good effective command and control on

5 the ground for a commander. If you lack one or more of these areas, then

6 you will not be able to effectively control your command. In Srebrenica,

7 lacking adequate communications devices to send and receive reports and

8 orders, particularly on broken terrain, a courier system would have to be

9 established in order to conduct any type of effective communications

10 between a commander and his subordinate commanders.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask if this document can be taken away

13 and we show the witness P7, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, we'll have a break in about -- between

15 five and ten minutes' time.

16 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Make your own calculations when it's more convenient

18 for you.

19 MS. SELLERS: I will, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at this document. It's one from

21 Srebrenica, 31st of October, 1992. It has "order" written about one-third

22 down the page. And it says: "All units of the Srebrenica armed forces

23 will bear numerical codes as follows."

24 And then I'll draw your attention down to number 9. It

25 says: "Srebrenica Independent Battalion, 7510."

Page 15025

1 And then the last paragraph in this order says: "A numerical code

2 of the battalions within the brigade shall be determined by adding number

3 1, 2, or 3 to the numerical code of the brigade."

4 And my question to you, sir, giving codes to different segments or

5 units of an army, is that advantageous in terms of communications among

6 groups within the military structure, from your experience in Srebrenica?

7 A. With any type of encryption using an alphanumeric code makes for

8 clear communications in a military environment. Either secure or

9 unsecure, a sequence of alphanumeric numbers would make for a quick and

10 efficient communications between units.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask for Lieutenant Colonel Dudley to

13 be -- have this document withdrawn and to be shown P10, please.

14 Q. Sir, while that document is being given to you, I want to ask you:

15 Were you aware during your time period in Srebrenica of a communications

16 centre, a military communications centre, in a place called Lovak [phoen]?

17 A. No, I was not.

18 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at P10. It's a document dated the

19 20th of October, 1992, from Srebrenica. It's an order -- it says: "For

20 the members of the armed forces of Srebrenica, those are as follows."

21 And it list 22 persons. And the bottom of the page it says: "The

22 pass allows the above members to stay in and travel from Srebrenica to

23 Tuzla and back."

24 From your experience in Srebrenica and during wartime, is that

25 part of a function of leaders or commanders to authorise passes, whether

Page 15026

1 they be individual, group passes, to persons who are members of the

2 military?

3 A. Define "pass" for me, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What did he say? Yeah. Okay.

5 Can we see the top of the -- because when you read out the

6 document, I don't think you read out group -- that it is a group pass.

7 MS. SELLERS: No, I didn't, Your Honour, you're right.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's number one. And secondly, there is

9 included in this document also what appears to be a kind of weapon that

10 these persons will be carrying. That's number two. It's another

11 distinctive quality in --

12 And, Mr. Jones, yes.

13 MR. JONES: Again, Your Honour, we're drifting back into the

14 realms of expert evidence. The first part of the question makes it sound

15 like it's a factual question: From your experience in Srebrenica. I then

16 expected the question to be: Are you familiar with passes being

17 authorised for people to travel back and forth from Srebrenica and Tuzla.

18 But then it shifts into an abstract question. And it's not fair to the

19 witness. Is he being asked about Srebrenica, what he experienced, or is

20 he being asked about an expert witness question.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree a hundred per cent.

22 I think you need to more or less approach the matter as suggested

23 by Mr. Jones. And since the witness also is not comfortable with the

24 word -- the generic word "pass," I think you need to put him in the

25 picture exactly what you mean by "pass." And I'm asking this -- I'm

Page 15027

1 saying this because, as I said, the -- there is also an indication of the

2 weapon they are supposed to be carrying.


4 JUDGE AGIUS: So that justifies hundred per cent the witness's

5 request to have the nature of this pass that you are referring to from

6 this document clarified.

7 MS. SELLERS: If I go first to the question of the pass and then

8 I'll be able to --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so.

10 MS. SELLERS: -- address the questions raised in the objection.

11 Q. Sir, at the top of the document it does say "group pass." At the

12 bottom of the document it says: "Pass allows the above members to stay in

13 and travel from Srebrenica to Tuzla and back."

14 Now, when you were in Srebrenica, you testified that one of your

15 watchers, assistants, came from Tuzla to Srebrenica?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Now, do you know whether he had permission to come to Srebrenica?

18 A. What he told me was that he was a volunteer of a small group of

19 lightly armed men who infiltrated from Tuzla to Srebrenica. How they

20 organised that group and what certifications they provided to that group I

21 do not know.

22 Q. Are you familiar under military structures with permission given

23 to members of groups to go from one place to another, authorised

24 permission?

25 A. That takes many different variants. A pass in my terminology

Page 15028

1 means that you have a leave coming to you, and therefore you can be absent

2 from your unit for a specific period of time for rest and recreation.

3 Another type of pass would be provided to either a civilian or a convoy of

4 vehicles to pass from one military location to another, given the

5 permission to travel on a specific road if questioned. The third type of

6 pass would be a document that somebody would carry with them that would

7 allow them to show permission to travel as an individual between different

8 locations.

9 Q. Yes. Well, if one were to look at your different considerations,

10 and particularly the last one, is it from your understanding that when you

11 have a pass that permits you to travel from one location to the other

12 during times of war, and particularly as in Srebrenica, that persons could

13 carry -- could travel with weapons?

14 A. That is correct. What this is telling me is this was an armed

15 group who is not known to everybody on both sides of the line, and

16 therefore this was certifying them as official BiH fighters and therefore

17 they were to be accepted into the other enclave or location as certified

18 Bosniaks versus BSA members.

19 Q. Now, maybe you can help us or maybe you can't, sir, if you notice

20 after the names of the person what appears to be the rifle, there is a

21 number. Now, from your experience in Srebrenica, does that number tell

22 you anything?

23 A. The number tells me nothing. All it means is that they have

24 assigned a specific number to a specific person for whatever reason. They

25 usually only issue one number to one person to keep it clear so you don't

Page 15029

1 have confusion. Otherwise, I have no any idea what that means.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and his experience in Srebrenica, I don't see

3 how it could help him to understand, especially if you look at number 22.

4 M, whatever that means, 56, and then 348, 53-C. I don't know.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would not hesitate to offer what it

6 means. At this time I would be more than willing to take the break, as

7 Your Honour suggested.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers.

9 We'll have a 30-minute break. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.36 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. How much longer do you think you require the

13 witness, Ms. Sellers? Microphone.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, as I've informed the Defence that I

15 hope to conclude by 1.00, five after, and there should be adequate time,

16 if we're going until quarter of 2.00 today for cross or re-cross or

17 re-direct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

19 Are you going to start with the next witness today or tomorrow?

20 MR. JONES: Yes, tomorrow. And as I said, I've spoken to

21 Mr. Wubben about that witness, and I'm going to try and stick actually to

22 an hour and a half, and so it might be possible to finish with him

23 tomorrow as well. But of course there's no -- that's a matter between us,

24 just to let you know that that's what we're endeavouring to achieve.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We would appreciate if you reach an agreement on

Page 15030

1 that, because we would take advantage from it.

2 So, Ms. Sellers.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask right now if the witness

4 could recall his testimony -- pardon me.

5 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, you testified yesterday that at times

6 there was sirens that would go off in Srebrenica while you were there and

7 that that would be a signal for some form of mobilisation. Do you

8 remember that testimony?

9 A. Yes, I do. As I recall, that siren would be used to signify

10 either incoming aircraft or occasionally to mobilise forces. And that's

11 all I remember about the siren.

12 Q. Was it necessary during the time period you were in Srebrenica to

13 mobilise forces because of the war situation?

14 A. The only time that I can remember is approximately midway through

15 my stay there. The Muslims suffered a serious defeat to the south of

16 Srebrenica, and they were very concerned about being overrun by the Serb

17 forces. And I remember a -- the siren going off, and I was informed it

18 was to mobilise the local fighters to deal with the situation.

19 Q. I would ask that Lieutenant Colonel Dudley be shown P20, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: While that is being done, were you in a position

21 distinguish between siren being an air-raid warning and siren being a

22 call-up for fighters to gather?

23 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


Page 15031

1 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at the paper in front of you. I

2 believe the B/C/S will also be provided to you. And the document dated

3 the 24th of March, 1993: "The commander of the Srebrenica armed forces

4 hereby issues authorisation. The Kutlici unit is hereby authorised to

5 mobilise the entire population temporarily housed in Kutlici village and

6 send it to positions. Any person who refuses to obey the order of

7 mobilisation shall be taken into custody at the prison in Srebrenica."

8 It says that this same unit is "hereby authorised to confiscate

9 and retain for themselves weapons from all those in possession of them who

10 pass through or stay in Kutlici without a special pass stamped by the

11 Srebrenica Armed Forces Staff."

12 And then there's a name and a signature.

13 My question to you, sir, is: Mobilisation of the entire

14 population of Srebrenica is --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let her finish the question first, because I haven't

16 heard the entire question.

17 MR. JONES: That's not what the document says.

18 MS. SELLERS: Let me rephrase. Mobilisation of the entire

19 population of Kutlici.

20 MR. JONES: Kutlici village.


22 Q. Kutlici village, all right. And then, as it continues to go on to

23 say of taking weapons or taking people into custody. Would that be in

24 keeping with the dire situation that you found Srebrenica enclave in when

25 you came?

Page 15032

1 A. I will rephrase that question. Based on what I saw, there was a

2 big difference between intent and capability. This document indicates

3 intent. However, I doubt the forces on the ground had the capability of

4 effectively carrying out that order.

5 Q. I thank you very much for your response, but my question was: Is

6 this document then in keeping from your experience in Srebrenica with the

7 dire situation that the enclave was in?

8 A. All this document tells me is that they're mobilising a village.

9 I have no idea of -- and the population is temporarily in that village.

10 So I have no idea of the size of this village and the amount of force sent

11 to mobilise this village. So I cannot answer your question without some

12 more information about the situation on the ground.

13 Q. Certainly. Can we say that from your experience in Srebrenica

14 that certainly the ability to have weapons was very important to the

15 Bosniak -- the Bosnian Muslims who were fighting in the enclave at that

16 time period?

17 A. That is correct, because at this time they had been cut off. They

18 had also suffered several local defeats. And their ammunitions situation

19 particularly was abysmal. Another key problem that the forces inside

20 Srebrenica had is that they did not have standardised weapons, therefore

21 they could not share ammunition between different weapons. They would

22 have to deal with -- you know, get new weapons when another weapon ran out

23 of ammunition. We're dealing with hunting rifles and other non-standard

24 equipment. So ammunition and weapons would go hand in hand. And

25 therefore, to replenish their supply of arms, grabbing it from civilians

Page 15033

1 or retrieving people who would possibly have them, would be a viable

2 military option at this stage in the game.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. I believe that you also testified that one of

4 your watchers or assistants related to you a time period of when a

5 person -- I believe it was a military person had been arrested and put in

6 jail.

7 A. Yes. First off I saw no mass arrests. There was only one time

8 that it was mentioned to me that one person had been incarcerated in the

9 jail, and that was a young man who had committed some type of a crime.

10 What that crime is, I do not know.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. I would now ask if --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And also yesterday he mentioned that it was a

13 Bosnian.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes, certainly, sir.


16 MS. SELLERS: And without any submissions, I'm just going to --

17 Q. Sir --

18 MS. SELLERS: Could I ask the usher now could that document be

19 removed from Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, and I would now like to have

20 document P178 placed in front of him, please.

21 Q. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, you've testified about the various

22 front lines or defensive lines. And you've also testified how those lines

23 were moving, in essence, shrinking, from a larger perimeter to a smaller

24 perimeter by the time that you arrived. I would ask you to look at the

25 document in front of you that's dated Srebrenica, the 15th of October,

Page 15034

1 1992, and it's an order. It says: "The free territory shall be secured

2 by the established line of fire as follows."

3 And I would ask you to look through the established lines of fire,

4 and in particular line number 6 that says: "Likari, Caus, Djogazi, Budak,

5 Pale, Bljeceva."

6 Do you see where I'm referring to, sir?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Sir, that goes on to say that these lines shall be secured and

9 held by the Gornji Potocari Brigade, Gostilj Battalion, and Pale

10 Battalion."

11 My question to you is that during your time period in Srebrenica,

12 were you aware of any front lines or line of fire established in those

13 areas?

14 A. I'm not familiar with these specific towns, except for the

15 Potocari area, which I see is very close to the Drina River and Serbia.

16 So I would need you to trace that on the map, that front line trace for

17 me, and I can give you an honest yes or no.

18 Q. Sir, I believe you do have the map right next to you.

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. And I would direct your attention to Srebrenica. And I would ask

21 you to look a little bit to the north and to the west, in like a

22 semicircle around that area. I believe almost to the north where your pen

23 was before I think we see the marking of Potocari. Yes. And so in those

24 parameters I would ask you, were you familiar in your time period with any

25 of the lines near Potocari, Likari, or Caus in its --

Page 15035

1 A. I can verify one specific line of confrontation because at the

2 bridge at Potocari there was a Serb dug-in position on both sides of that

3 road, and that's approximately where we did the prisoner exchange on

4 the 21st. And -- so that part of the front line trace I can definitely

5 confirm.

6 Q. So then in keeping with your evidence concerning command and

7 communications, intelligence, posting, stationing people on front line

8 positions, would that be something that a commander or command structure

9 should do, such as is evidenced in this document?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are now --

11 MS. SELLERS: Well, Your Honour, I tried to tie it in to his

12 knowledge, particularly his knowledge of a certain line of defence.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have an acknowledgment from the witness already,

14 acceptance on his part, that at least as far as Potocari or that area is

15 concerned, there was a front line. Basically, it means that there was a

16 front line.

17 MS. SELLERS: I will leave it there, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So why --

19 MS. SELLERS: I will leave it there.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why proceed? Because we would have to go through

21 the entire map and then ask him whether this was what was happening, and

22 of course Caus on the mountain and all that, when he has already told you

23 that they were, in his opinion, capable of mounting two assaults or

24 attacks at the same time, simultaneously. So they barely had the people

25 to do two things at the time. Did they have the people to man all these

Page 15036

1 front lines? I don't know. If you want to ask him, of course by all

2 means, but you need to keep your feet on the ground all the time.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, they're right on the front lines,

4 believe you me. My feet, I mean. And that's why I was just merely asking

5 the witness if he was familiar with that one line, and I believe that he

6 has answered in the affirmative.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He has told you yes.

8 MR. JONES: He said Potocari.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Potocari.

10 MR. JONES: Likari, Caus, Djogazi, Budak, Pale.

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes. Okay, we can remove the document from the

12 witness, please.

13 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I'd like to move now into a

14 continuation but a slightly different area of the cross-examination, and I

15 would like to show a video. And I believe this is exhibit --

16 MS. SELLERS: Would you allow me just one second, Your Honour.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. SELLERS: It would be P427.

19 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the screen, sir.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. SELLERS: If we could just go back a couple places, please.

22 And then go forward.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you, if you look in the lower right-hand

Page 15037

1 corner of this scene, are you familiar with what type of instrument or --

2 it looks like a satellite dish or a communications dish that's there?

3 A. I wasn't focussing on that when I was looking at the video, but

4 from what I can see, it's a large white -- it looks like a dish with some

5 type of antenna probe sticking out of the middle.

6 MS. SELLERS: Yes, we'll continue just a tiny bit.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Sir, in looking at it now, can you --

10 A. It is an antenna dish.

11 Q. Could you tell us what type of capacity for communication that a

12 disk like that could have, if you know, sir.

13 A. Could we go back very slowly. I'd like to see what's behind it

14 also, please.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: Okay. First I didn't see --

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: Perfect. Okay. I haven't seen it communicate,

19 therefore I don't know if it can communicate. It's always set up and

20 looks like it's part of the UN capability, but if it has line of sight

21 with another hilltop transmission site, it could probably be a long-range

22 communicator.


24 Q. Now, sir, was this your communication device or are we talking

25 about a completely different type of communication device?

Page 15038

1 A. This is a totally different type of communication device. This

2 was not mine. This is not man-packable.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: We're going to continue with this.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Sir, I draw your attention to the person who appears to be using a

8 phone apparatus. Now, is that phone apparatus in any way linked to that

9 -- the use of the satellite dish you described?

10 A. You always have to use some type of microphone or telephone in

11 order to be able to communicate. I can't tell from this picture whether

12 it's linked to the satellite dish or to the truck which is right next door

13 to it. I would have to make the assumption, looking at which hand he's

14 holding it in that it's linked to the truck itself. Probably it's HF

15 communications, which was what normally the UN operated with. Again, I

16 would like to say that UN and UNPROFOR did not have secure communications

17 in the field when I was there.

18 Q. And I take it from what you're saying, sir, that it's possible

19 these are two different systems of communication that we're looking at

20 now; one from the apparent phone-like instrument and the other from the

21 satellite instrument.

22 A. Roger. And I cannot tell who is communicating using what device.

23 I see a handset in the blue hat's hands, but I can't tell where it's going

24 to.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 15039

1 MS. SELLERS: Could we continue.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Sir, you just saw a person sling something over their shoulder.

5 Were you able to discern what that might be?

6 A. No. It looked like a small portable backpack maybe for carrying

7 water. So could I see it one more time? I'll look more carefully at it.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: It looked like a weapon. It looked like a

10 collapsible AK automatic weapon.


12 Q. We'll continue to go forward now, sir.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Sir, the person who had the automatic weapon now appears to be

16 speaking into an apparatus. I'm going to keep playing the video, and

17 could you please tell us what type of apparatus that is.

18 A. I can tell you right now. It's one of those Motorolas that they

19 had inside Srebrenica.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Now, are these the types of Motorolas that you saw while you were

23 in Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes. They are referred to as bricks.

25 Q. I would like to ask you: Did you recognise anyone in the picture

Page 15040

1 who was dressed in blue, with either a blue hat or a blue cap?

2 A. No. I did not recognise anybody who was associated with the UN

3 section of UNPROFOR in that group.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, when did UNPROFOR -- excuse me, sir. To

5 your knowledge, when did personnel from UNPROFOR come into the area of

6 Srebrenica?

7 A. Well, there is two separate events that I'm aware of. The first

8 one when General Morillon initially went into the Cerska pocket, which was

9 just to the south -- excuse me, to the north of Srebrenica, trying to

10 determine what was going on in that area. And there's a lot of activity

11 associated with that. And then once he got permission, he -- a small

12 group came in on the 11th of March, and that was part of that second

13 group. So the first time we approached the Srebrenica area/pocket as an

14 UNPROFOR group was at Cerska, entry by General Morillon, with a very small

15 group of people.

16 Q. Are we speaking about March of that -- of 1993, sir?

17 A. I don't have the exact date on top of my head. I would say the

18 end of February/beginning of March time frame.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I'm sure the Prosecution doesn't

21 want to have misleading evidence on this either, so I think it's important

22 to clarify this. Are we talking about the whole period that the UN was

23 ever in Srebrenica? Because, of course, this witness is just speaking

24 about up to March 1993. But as we've seen, there's no time indication on

25 this video. Is he being asked whether up until 1995 the UN was present?

Page 15041

1 And I would also -- I would like to be clear whether the Prosecution is

2 actually trying to suggest that the satellite dish was not belonging to

3 the UN blue helmets there. There's only so much I can address in

4 re-examination. If that's the suggestion, I think I need to know that so

5 I can address that, because that seems to be almost the suggestion. And

6 if so, then I think, in fairness to the witness and to get the best

7 evidence, we should look carefully what the blue caps are, what's written

8 on it, because otherwise there's a suggestion and insinuation but it's not

9 actually being stated.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think this satellite dish ownership matter

11 needs to be addressed, because obviously you have asked the witness

12 whether he could enlighten us on what that could possibly be, and he said

13 that's a satellite dish, depending on what for. So I think the Defence --

14 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. Let me clarify the two questions --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- need to know --

16 MS. SELLERS: -- was for this witness, when was the first time

17 that he knew in his knowledge that United Nations personnel, UNPROFOR,

18 came into Srebrenica. And we can certainly go to the second question,

19 because I'm not attempting to suggest anything.

20 Q. Do you know whether the satellite dish we saw on this video

21 belonged to the United Nations or to anyone else in Srebrenica? If you

22 know, tell us; if you don't know, state, "I don't know."

23 A. I don't know.

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 15042

1 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

2 Q. I would now like to ask you that we talked about communications

3 and transportation. And while you were with your watchers or your

4 assistants, did you at any time learn about the ability to take

5 helicopters in and out of Srebrenica?

6 A. I had one report, and that was from Senad, that they were using a

7 Gazelle helicopter from Tuzla to ferry in a few people and to ferry out a

8 few wounded, and maybe to bring in a few supplies. But they could only do

9 it at night, and very carefully, because they would be interdicted and

10 shot down by the Serb forces.

11 Q. Now, when -- I'm sorry, sir. When you say that "they were using,"

12 could you be a bit more explicit, if you can.

13 A. Certainly: BiH forces inside Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly

14 between Tuzla and Srebrenica.

15 Q. Now, were there any persons in Srebrenica, to your knowledge, that

16 you were informed of who would ever take these helicopters and come -- go

17 out of Srebrenica to Tuzla?

18 A. The only person would be the -- was Naser was referred to as once

19 having left the pocket that I can recall. Anybody else, I don't know.

20 The only other person, I think, who possibly could have gotten in and out

21 was Tony Birtley, but I don't -- I cannot confirm or deny that.

22 Q. All right. Thank you.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like now to show the witness

24 another videotape. If you would just allow me to speak to case manager.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 15043

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we'll be looking at P517.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


4 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I would ask you to look at this image

5 that's in front of you now, and I would ask you, if you can, would you

6 identify what type of weapon that is.

7 A. Okay. It is an assault automatic machine-gun, it looks like, with

8 a drum canister. It would be part of the former Yugoslav JNA weapons

9 inventory. I believe he's wearing a sling over his shoulder for support,

10 which is not a good way of using that weapon because of the recoil. I

11 would expect to see it with a bipod or a tripod in a fixed position so

12 they could deliver accurate weapons fire with it.

13 Q. Now, do you know or can you tell whether, by the manner in which

14 the person is dressed, whether that's a member of the armed forces of

15 Republic of Srpska or from forces that would be from the ABiH forces or

16 Muslim forces?

17 A. The picture is too blurry for me to see any distinguishing

18 features in this one, so I'm not going to speculate.

19 Q. Fine, sir.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record -- one moment. For the record, the

21 witness is looking at a still from the said video P517 at 03.46.1.


23 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at the next video.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 15044

1 Q. Sir, are you able to discern from this still picture here what

2 type of weapons that are being shown?

3 A. It is the same type I saw before, and again it looks like it has

4 either a box or a round canister to hold the ammunition. And again, that

5 keeps the weapon from jamming when fired. It is a light machine-gun of

6 some sort. Again I would expect to see a bipod or a tripod with it.

7 Obviously this is inside Srebrenica because I can see the building where

8 we did the prisoner release just off to the right.

9 Q. I'm going to run this just a tiny bit so you can see.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to record the still, please, where the

11 witness was making his comment.

12 MR. JONES: And, Your Honour, can we also remove the wording below

13 because that's -- it doesn't seem to correspond and it's also practically

14 inflammatory, I think, that appearing there.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but are we going to ask the witness --

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm not looking at the wording.

17 MR. JONES: If the witness could disregard as well.

18 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are at still 05.28.04.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I would ask that we just roll it a bit more.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Sir, you've testified briefly that you were unable in many ways to

24 meet the political and military leadership of Srebrenica. I'm going to

25 ask you, did that --

Page 15045

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't exactly say that.

2 MR. JONES: He met the mayor, he met members of the War

3 Presidency. The only person he didn't meet was Naser Oric.

4 MS. SELLERS: May I rephrase that, Your Honour?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.


7 Q. Were you able to meet with various members of the military

8 leadership, such as local commanders, such as commander -- staff

9 commanders, or with any of their immediate subordinates?

10 A. The answer to that is: No. And that was one of my most difficult

11 issues in Srebrenica. So I needed to liaison to do specific planning or

12 find out what was going on with the tactical situation on the ground. I

13 was not able to meet with many key players that I can remember or that I

14 recorded. And therefore, it was initially difficult for me to figure out

15 what was going on in that environment.

16 Q. And prior, maybe, to being pre-empted by Judge Agius, I just want

17 to make it clear then that you therefore did not attend any meetings of

18 military hierarchy while you were there?

19 A. I'm going to go back to my memory as best I can. There was an

20 initial meeting the first night we were in Srebrenica in the PTT building,

21 in a little conference room next to where they had the ham radio station.

22 I don't remember being part of that meeting. Now, I might have sat in on

23 that meeting, but I was very tired, I didn't record it, therefore I have

24 no real recollection or memory of that meeting.

25 Q. Now, in terms of other authorities, you met the mayor of the town,

Page 15046

1 if I'm correct.

2 A. Yes, I did. I was later informed that that was the mayor I shook

3 hands with, and I could definitely pick out his picture, and I remember

4 him being addressed as something like that. I also met with a member of

5 the War Presidency. I remember having dinner with him in his apartment

6 one night while I was there. But I don't remember being able to have an

7 opportunity to sit down and have many in-depth meetings with either the

8 War Presidency personnel or, you know, their field commanders or anything

9 like that.

10 Q. Other than those two persons, the mayor and the War Presidency,

11 did you meet any other civilian authorities or leaders in Srebrenica?

12 A. I might have. However, I didn't record it and did not record on

13 my brain as a key meeting or a key event during my time that I was there.

14 And I would take that to mean that it didn't register as important enough

15 for me to record or to deal with it.

16 Q. And can I also take that to mean that you didn't have the

17 opportunity, therefore, to discuss any military tactics with any military

18 leaders nor any civilian matters that might come up with the civilian

19 leaders?

20 A. I did not go into depth with any of them. One of the key

21 remembrances I had was having dinner with that War Presidency individual

22 is we beat around the bush a little bit, but I got nothing firm out of

23 them. One of my key frustrations, again, is when I would try to carry on

24 a conversation with a lot of these people, we would go around and around

25 in circles, but nothing would be accomplished.

Page 15047

1 Q. But yet, you did know, even though you didn't meet with the

2 person, that this Naser appeared to be the commander of the military. Is

3 that correct, or am I misstating what you said?

4 A. I will re-word your question. From everybody I talked to, they

5 all said that Naser was the local commander.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to show another --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, one moment.

8 Do you still have a comment or a remark --

9 MR. JONES: There are various -- I'm not going to state what the

10 witness has said before because it might be suggested that I am hinting at

11 something. But if Ms. Sellers could -- if she's actually going to state

12 what the witness said, if she could refer to the page and line so we can

13 actually check that, then that would be helpful.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Yes, Ms. Sellers. We are approaching the end anyway.

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, we are.

17 I would now ask that the witness be shown video 4 -- I'm sorry.

18 Video -- P number 427. And if we could just look at the screens, please.

19 [Videotape played]


21 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, on the frame in front of you, and you

22 see that there is -- appears to be a date of the 6th of March, 1993, and

23 what appears to be a group of uniformed men and then some persons

24 including children who are not in uniform. My first question to you is:

25 Can you tell us what type of weapon appears to be carried by the person in

Page 15048

1 the background?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Wait before you answer. We are at

3 still 24.43.1.

4 THE WITNESS: Can we go back and play the video again, and I'll be

5 looking for that specific part of the picture. Oh, perfect.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE WITNESS: Stop. Okay. That is a light assault machine-gun.

8 It's got the same -- now I can see it better. It looks like the same one

9 that I saw before, and it's a boxed ammunition carrier -- you can see the

10 rounds feeding into the chamber. And you can see the tripod -- I mean the

11 bipod up front. They can be folded down and used to provide support for

12 the weapon on the ground.


14 Q. All right. Now, just a very quick side question. You've

15 described now two or three times these light assault machine-guns. Are

16 these are the types of weapons that you previously testified about that

17 are easy to carry over rugged terrain and are more mobile compared to

18 heavier types of artillery?

19 A. Yes. And you can see -- this picture is much clearer. I can

20 point out some other military gear here that I recognise, too, from the

21 past.

22 Q. Please, yes.

23 A. Okay. You can see the sling over the man's shoulder. He's got

24 one box of ammunition attached to the machine-gun, and I would assume that

25 other members of his group would carry additional boxes of ammunition to

Page 15049

1 support him, and usually you fire this weapon as part of a two-man team,

2 one being the firer and the other one being the loader, who would make

3 sure that the rounds fit evenly into the machine-gun for smooth firing.

4 Also you see the Bandolier that the other gentleman has in the

5 middle. That's very typical of North Korean/Chinese gear at the time and

6 that's where he would carry his banana clips for his Kalashnikov assault

7 rifle.

8 Q. Now, is this similar to what you described -- I'm speaking to the

9 man who seems to be standing a bit to the right-hand side of the screen

10 who is in uniform, was this similar to the type of apparatus you were

11 describing a uniform that Senad wore?

12 A. This looks like Senad himself.

13 Q. That was going to be my next question.

14 A. He's got the green beret on. He's got the same exact vest on as

15 the other gentleman, and he's wearing the same type of uniform that I had

16 seen many times in the past on him.

17 Q. I'll let that roll a little more and you might be able to get a

18 slightly clearer shot.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was Senad.


22 Q. Yes, so is this the person --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers. We are now at 24.43.5.


25 Q. So, sir, when you say "Senad," this was the person who was your

Page 15050

1 watcher/assistant?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Now, the type of uniform that he's wearing, is that a type of

4 uniform that was worn by the ABiH?

5 A. Let me clarify that, and I'm going to give you what he told me is

6 his personal history.

7 He claimed to be a Croatian Muslim who had grown up in Srebrenica.

8 He had fought -- he volunteered to be part of the Green Berets, which was

9 part of the initial attempt by the BiH to establish military

10 organisations. He considered himself an elite fighter. He fought

11 initially in Croatia and then had come to Tuzla, where he had volunteered

12 to be part of a small group infiltrating into Srebrenica. I believe he

13 brought the German photographer with him about the same time.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recognise any of the other uniforms that

15 the other males appear to be wearing as uniforms that were worn by Muslim

16 fighters, military combatants or --

17 A. This group seems to be a little bit better equipped than most of

18 the ones that I saw, and it might be a little bit earlier in the

19 environment, which means that they were in a little bit better shape. You

20 notice that there's a wide variety of military uniforms within the group;

21 it's not uniform. Looking at the man on the far left, you can see he is

22 wearing one type of pants, camouflage pants, he's wearing another type of

23 jacket. One guy looks like he has some type of head skull cap on, but

24 again they are all in various motley types of uniform.

25 But, yes, this would be typical fighters, plus any other

Page 15051

1 cold-weather gear they could wear when I was there.

2 Q. Did Senad or any of the others you see here have any type of

3 designation of a lily or something of the ABiH army?

4 A. I have one patch that I have at home as a souvenir that actually

5 showed the lily or the -- the BiH insignia. I have not seen it on these

6 guys. I saw occasionally in Srebrenica, but very rarely. And I would

7 just like to make a military note on that. If I were in a combat

8 situation, that's one patch I would immediately cover over because it's

9 too visible. It's not camouflage. It's bright yellow and blue,

10 et cetera, which make it stand out, and that makes for a nice target.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, we're going to continue this video for

13 just a couple seconds.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, I'd like to ask you, the men that you

17 see in uniform in this portion of the video, are these also similar to

18 some of the uniforms that you saw while in the enclave in Srebrenica?

19 A. I saw a few people in uniform like this, but most of them didn't

20 have the gear. Most of them were village people who did not have full

21 military uniforms. This individual directly in front of me is unusual

22 because he looks very well-uniformed for the environment. He's got a

23 heavy military coat on. He's got American-style web gear, it looks like.

24 It looks like he's wearing some type of a patch over his right pocket --

25 excuse me, his left pocket. Some of the things that are very unmilitary,

Page 15052

1 though, is that yellow or orange thing he has close to his neck. Again,

2 that would make for a bad target. So although he looks relatively

3 well-equipped, he doesn't look well trained.

4 Q. You would advise him to take the yellow --

5 A. I would tell him to take the yellow off, I would tell him to take

6 that patch off, and I would tell him that he looks like he might be

7 rattling around a little bit too much.

8 Q. Thank you, sir.

9 MS. SELLERS: We're going to continue rolling this a little bit.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We were, for the record, at 25.20.3.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: Will you stop the tape, please. I would like to go

13 back about four bars because I would like to make a comment here. Stop --

14 no, go back, please.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: Stop. See this man with the multi-coloured hat on,

17 ski hat.


19 Q. Yes, sir?

20 A. This is more likely what I saw there. And they guy with his

21 regular coat on, you've got a little bit more of a uniformed group here,

22 but you have a lot of other guys who are a lot less uniformed, a lot less

23 disciplined, and that's more like what I saw in Srebrenica, not this small

24 group of relatively well-uniformed individuals.

25 Q. Sir, given the climate in Srebrenica, that time period, would you

Page 15053

1 say that the discipline, in terms of military discipline, would prohibit

2 people wearing wool hats or things that would give them warmth in addition

3 to their uniform?

4 A. You do what you got to do in the environment in which you find

5 yourself.

6 Q. Thank you. We'll continue rolling this for just a --

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Now, sir, could you look at this weapon in front of us now and

10 could you tell us what type of weapon that is?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Wait, wait, wait. For the record, we are at

12 26.22.9.

13 THE WITNESS: Again, it's very blurry to me, but it looks like a

14 form of sniper rifle. Let me point out some reasons why I think so. This

15 looks -- I can't remember the exact name, but this is a very common weapon

16 within the Warsaw Pact forces, and I'm going to say what I think. Okay?

17 And if I could have a better military picture, I could confirm or deny

18 what I'm going to say.

19 You see it's got a wooden/hard plastic stock in the back. It's

20 got a very large shoulder rest. It's got some type of telescopic scope.

21 I can't see the large part of the barrel, but it's got a very large, heavy

22 barrel, which looks like it would be firing a large-calibre bullet. And

23 again it's got that tripod upon which you could get a steady hold and

24 provide more stability for the weapon to snipe with. So I would call this

25 a sniper rifle.

Page 15054


2 Q. Thank you, sir. We'll continue.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask now if we could just go

5 into private session because there will be a part of this video that --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to explain for the time being.

7 MS. SELLERS: Fine.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there an objection? No.

9 So we are, for the record, still at 26.47.8. And let's go into

10 private session for a while, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15055











11 Page 15055 redacted. Private session.















Page 15056











11 Page 15056 redacted. Private session.















Page 15057

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 MS. SELLERS: I just need to confer with my colleagues for a

16 minute.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What kind of re-examination do you have, Mr. Jones?

19 How long do you think you will last?

20 MR. JONES: I think it will be about 40 minutes. There's a lot --


22 MR. JONES: 40, 4-0. There have been a lot of documents, a lot of

23 videos, and I need to address each of them, unfortunately.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. Please try to conclude,

25 Ms. Sellers, as quickly as you can.

Page 15058

1 MS. SELLERS: I will, Your Honour. We have an exhibit that the

2 Defence has used on several occasions, and it's a book called "Merry

3 Christmas, Mr. Larry." And I would like to see if the pages we have

4 designated can be given to Lieutenant Colonel Dudley. Could we put it on

5 the ELMO. I would ask that you put it on page 173.

6 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at page 173, and please first just

7 note -- I don't know whether you're familiar with the book or not, but to

8 note the author of the book from the title page.

9 A. Check.

10 Q. Have you read the book before, sir?

11 A. No, I have not. Let me rephrase that, I have read a small portion

12 of the book.

13 Q. Sir, did you read the portion of the book where you were in it or

14 other portions?

15 A. A few other portions also. I think I have read this portion.

16 Q. On page 173, there at the top of the page it says: "Their

17 commander is Naser Oric, a tough leader who rules with a rod of iron."

18 And then further down on that page at the beginning of one of the

19 paragraphs it says: "Naser Oric sent a vehicle to pick up the General.

20 The rest of us struggled for hours, forcing a gap wide enough to let our

21 vehicle pass."

22 Now, you testified that you did not meet Naser Oric, did not know

23 who Naser Oric is. Did you ever hear of a reputation of him being a

24 strong person, someone who might rule with a rod of iron?

25 A. Let me answer as honestly as I can on this question. First off, I

Page 15059

1 did not hear any personal reports on Naser that were not positive or

2 complimentary to him. In the environment in which he was existing, any

3 commander would have to apply what I would call tough love in that

4 environment to keep his soldiers moving in the right direction. Sometimes

5 you can pat them on the back, but more you have to lead by example and you

6 have to have very strict discipline, or as much as you can, of course, to

7 keep the people doing the right thing at the right place at the right

8 time.

9 Q. So, sir, are you saying therefore, in a positive vein, that Naser

10 Oric might have been someone who ruled with a rod of iron?

11 A. Well, first off, he would have to have the respect of the people

12 who were following him. If he lost that respect, then he would be an

13 incompetent commander. So abusing his subordinate soldiers would not be a

14 smart thing to do. However, enforcing good military discipline would be

15 something he would have to do, and he would have to insist on it from the

16 subordinate commanders as well in order to conduct small-unit dispersed

17 type operations that were being conducted in the pocket while I was there.

18 Q. Thank you, sir.

19 MS. SELLERS: We can remove that exhibit from the witness. I'm

20 going to my very last video --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This hasn't got a number as yet --

22 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, could I ask for a P number.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This will become Prosecution Exhibit P --


25 JUDGE AGIUS: 615. I thank you so much.

Page 15060

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I really hope we don't run out of time,

2 but I've always been clear how much time I needed. And Ms. Sellers was

3 going to finish at 1.00 and each video takes us -- if it's--

4 MR. SELLERS: Your Honour --

5 MR. JONES: -- five minutes, then we'll go into tomorrow, I'm

6 afraid.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is the last video of five minutes

8 and I think that it's a very -- it's important --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm making it clear, at this point in time I am not

10 going to deprive Mr. Jones from the time that he has indicated he needs.

11 I am not going to keep anyone here a minute beyond the time, because we

12 have been here sitting since 8.00 in the morning and the reporter has been

13 using her hands all the time since then. So we will have to stay here and

14 continue tomorrow.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand this video is three

16 minutes.

17 Q. Sir, prior to looking at this video, I would just like to ask you

18 to recall your testimony concerning the day when you arrived in Srebrenica

19 and that you described a type of blockage that, to your knowledge, was

20 spontaneous in terms of people being kept in the PTT building. Will you

21 just confirm that to the Judges.

22 A. What I would like to say is what I observed was a large crowd of

23 mostly women, old men, children, broken up into family groups that were

24 camped outside the PTT building. And they sort of converged on us when

25 they found out who was there and what was going on. And there seemed to

Page 15061

1 be a lot of mass hysteria. I didn't see any organised people floating

2 around/making the crowd perform to their beat.

3 Q. And, sir, would you also confirm that, in your experience, a

4 commander takes decisions and lays down conditions in very difficult

5 situations?

6 A. That's a question, again, I'm going to have to give a lengthy

7 answer to.

8 Q. I'm sorry. We don't have the time. Is it possible --

9 A. Then I will pass on the question.

10 Q. Certainly you can pass on the question. And my last question

11 prior to just showing you this video is that you confirmed that to your

12 knowledge there were no other authorities, no authorities, engaged in this

13 holding of the persons inside the building at abeyance. I believe that

14 was your testimony.

15 A. I said that it appeared to be a spontaneous crowd around the

16 building. I didn't see any specific people putting a firm guard on us

17 that I can recall.

18 Q. Were you aware of any conditions to stop the spontaneous crowd

19 from ...

20 A. Well, the crowd seemed to be very insistent that General Morillon

21 stay and not leave. That seemed to be the key condition for the crowd

22 dispersing, and then we could start to do our job.

23 Q. Right. Now, did you know on that day - and I think we're talking

24 about the 11th of March - did you know that Naser Oric was the commander

25 in the area?

Page 15062

1 A. No, I did not. I had no clue before going into the pocket and

2 immediately upon arriving in the pocket who the actual commander was.

3 Q. And did you find out soon thereafter that he was the commander?

4 A. Yes, I believe on the second or the third day was when his name

5 was initially mentioned to me as the commander on the ground.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I recognise Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES: I'll come back to this on re-examination.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see the video.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to show the video, but I

11 would like to hand up the translations of the transcript of this video.

12 This is P427 again.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Dudley, did you recognise anyone in that video?

16 A. Well, obviously you're making me draw a conclusion that's Naser

17 sitting up on the truck.

18 Q. No, I'm not, sir; I'm asking you do you recognise anyone in that?

19 A. No, I did not. There were a couple, obviously, civilians. I

20 heard a British voice. I don't know who that was.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Well, again, it's the problem. There was a suggestion

23 underneath with the words of who it was, but since the witness --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I told you, I mean, the witness can perfectly handle

25 each and every situation that has arisen. I'm not conceding, Mr. Jones,

Page 15063

1 at any time you are trying to suggest anything to the witness.


3 Q. And my question, my final question, sir, is after looking at this

4 video, I put it to you, would you change your mind that there might have

5 been authorities also involved in this taking or this holding of people at

6 abeyance in the PTT building on the 11th of March, when you arrived?

7 A. I'm going to give you what I know and then I'm going to tell you

8 what I think. What I know is that when we arrived there, there was a huge

9 crowd of family groups that night. And obviously we still had some light

10 when this was happening. Okay. So I don't think this happened that same

11 night. I think that was happening the next day. Whenever you have a

12 group like General Morillon come into a besieged town, I would expect

13 local commanders and other authorities to show up because this is a key

14 event, a very important event, to include the local military commander.

15 He was probably putting out his demands, and he appears to be a very

16 charismatic leader because the people are cheering him and agreeing with

17 him and are very excited that he's come here to suffer with you, and all

18 this other good stuff. But I don't think he was there that same night

19 when we were initially blocked in.

20 Q. Okay. I thank you, sir, and I thank you for your testimony on

21 behalf of the Prosecution.

22 A. You're welcome.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you as well, Madam Sellers.

24 Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I observe that I was 2 and a half

Page 15064

1 hours in examination-in-chief and the Prosecution has been 3 hours and 15

2 minutes, much longer than me. I always said I needed 45 minutes and --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You will have all the 45 minutes that you need.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, I do apologise to the witness and the US

5 government.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know, Mr. Jones. I am not blaming you, at

7 all, for what happened. But I said very clearly that if you need 40

8 minutes, you'll get 40 minutes. If you need 45, you'll have 45. There's

9 no going back on that.

10 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:

12 Q. Now, Colonel, you have been asked today, or you've referred on

13 more than one occasion to Naser as a local military commander you also

14 said that there were "other military authorities." And in answer to my

15 questions yesterday, you said that there were multiple players, military

16 speaking. Is that correct?

17 A. As far as I could determine, there were multiple players on the

18 ground, both civil and military.

19 I have a personal request. Could we take a quick two-minute

20 break?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we could afford to do that.

22 We'll have a five-minute break.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 --- Break taken at 1.22 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

Page 15065

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Thank you.

3 Q. And just for the transcript, I know it's being cleaned up

4 afterwards, and I know it's my fault also for going too quickly, but I

5 don't think your answer was fully reflected.

6 I reminded you that you said that there were other military

7 authorities and that there were multiple military players and I think you

8 confirmed: Yes, there were multiple players on the ground, military and

9 civilian. Is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. So your information was that Naser was among those military

12 players. Would that be correct?

13 A. I will rephrase your question. Were there multiple individuals

14 who were dealing with civil or military affairs in Srebrenica? That is

15 correct. Naser seemed to be first among equals.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, regarding any relationship between Senad

17 and Naser, I don't want you to speculate or make any assumptions, I simply

18 want to ask you a series of questions. Did Senad ever manage to arrange a

19 meeting with Naser?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know for a fact, apart from what he told you, whether he

22 ever spoke to Naser?

23 A. I cannot confirm that he actually spoke to Naser at any time.

24 Q. And did you ever see him with Naser?

25 A. No.

Page 15066

1 Q. As far as Zele is concerned, did Zele ever mention Naser to you?

2 A. Once or twice.

3 Q. In what language was that?

4 A. It would have been in Serbo-Croatian, and it would have been

5 translated by Senad.

6 Q. And Senad speaking in a combination of German and English?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. And Senad dealt with other people as well, did he not, in

9 Srebrenica, the War Presidency, the mayor, and other people?

10 A. That is correct. Actually, he was my translator whenever I was

11 talking to anybody, and also I saw him interacting with lots of different

12 people.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, just in case you may need to refer to

14 this video and its transcript later on, I'm referring to the last video

15 shown by the Prosecution, and more particularly to the transcript thereof,

16 the transcript does not have an exhibit number and I'm giving it one. And

17 the transcript will now become Prosecution Exhibit P427.2.

18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, Senad, you told us, arrived I think you said in February

20 1993. You told us today what he told you about raids and that sort of

21 thing. So would it be correct that what he told you related to the period

22 after he arrived in Srebrenica?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, there's a discussion at various points today of

25 terminology of units, groups, et cetera. As far as the term "brigades" is

Page 15067

1 concerned, in your observations in Srebrenica, was that ever applied, in

2 fact, to small units in a loose sense?

3 A. I would say all military terms, be it brigade, battalion, company,

4 unit were very loosely used in this situation.

5 Q. So did the reality on the ground in fact reflect how one might

6 understand those terms in a conventional sense?

7 A. No, they did not apply at all. We're talking about -- I'm going

8 to use the term non-trained fighters who were basically giving themselves

9 their own designations versus what was actually -- would be considered

10 reality on the ground with a fully equipped, fully armed brigade or

11 battalion.

12 Q. Now, I don't want to rehearse your testimony yesterday about there

13 being no or very few uniforms, about there being no signs of ranks,

14 semi-autonomous village groups, asymmetric warfare, almost non-existent

15 communications, no trained leaders. What I do want to ask you is in light

16 of any of the questions or documents or videos you've been shown today,

17 does that affect your conclusions at all in what you said yesterday on

18 those matters?

19 A. The only thing that has influenced just a little bit is that there

20 was an attempt - and I want to use the term "attempt" - to get some

21 organisation within their structure. But what they attempted and what

22 they succeeded to do are two totally different things.

23 Q. So apart from that observation, do your conclusions and your

24 observations remain the same?

25 A. Yes, they remain the same.

Page 15068

1 Q. Now, you referred yesterday -- you referred today to conducting

2 small-unit raids and ambushes. Was there, in fact, any other way that the

3 Muslims could fight the Serbs under those circumstances?

4 A. That was the most effective way, based on what they had available

5 to them at the time. I want to also add it appears that they tried to do

6 some larger-scale military operations, and they failed at those attempts,

7 probably suffering more casualties than they wanted to incur. And

8 therefore, they fell back on to individual and small-unit type operations,

9 which were much safer for them to conduct and required a lot less command

10 and control requirements.

11 Q. Thank you. And it was put to you that the terrain was an

12 advantage for the Muslims being on foot. Did they have any advantages,

13 apart from that, if that can be described as an advantage, vis-a-vis the

14 Serbs?

15 A. No, they did not have any other advantages. They were outgunned,

16 outequipped, et cetera, by the Serbs.

17 Q. And as far as travelling on that terrain is concerned, you were

18 there, you saw the terrain. It was suggested or stated that it was very

19 easy for light infantry to infiltrate. How easy, in fact, would it be for

20 a fighter to walk 20 or 30 kilometres in that terrain in heavy snow over

21 mountains? Is that easy?

22 A. Let me rephrase that in two parts. One, if you know the terrain

23 and you were trained in mountainous warfare, yes, and if you have the

24 right equipment, be it snowshoes, et cetera. If you're not familiar with

25 the terrain and you are not properly equipped and you aren't experienced

Page 15069

1 in that type of an environment, no, it would be extremely difficult.

2 Q. And which of those two scenarios was it in Srebrenica, from what

3 you could observe?

4 A. I would say it was a combination of both. We had a lot of local

5 boys who were very familiar with the terrain and the trails, and therefore

6 they would be able to get around relatively easily. But for civilians,

7 particularly those who had been forced out of their home villages, they

8 would have to stick to the main roads and the trails, because otherwise

9 they would get lost and confused.

10 Q. So it depends on how much familiarity, and that is a question of

11 fact?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Now, you were also asked about whether it could be an advantage

14 for a fighter to be living with his family because, in a way, he would be

15 fiercer. Isn't it the case that also detracts from command and control

16 because you can choose to stay at home rather than go to fight?

17 A. Yes, it can be both ways. If you're defending your home and your

18 family against intruders and they're depending on you, that will make you

19 very fierce because you're defending your own. However, if your family is

20 in need just for food for basic survival, then you're torn in two

21 directions; defending your environment from the enemy but also providing

22 for your family. And that would make for major problems with command and

23 control.

24 Q. Now, you were asked about a number of facets of military life, if

25 you like, in Srebrenica. You said you preferred to use the word

Page 15070

1 "combatant" military combatant rather than "soldier." Can you elaborate

2 on that, why you prefer not to use the word "soldier."

3 A. "Soldier" means that he has received some type of training and

4 that he is uniformed and equipped, however poorly, to be part of an

5 organisation or unit. "Military combatant" means that they have grouped

6 together for self-defence or for some type of military reaction, usually

7 reacting to some type of invasion. They don't have the equipment, uniform

8 equipment, and training to work as an effective fighting force.

9 Q. And you were asked about matters such as rotation on the front

10 lines. Was there actually anything as formal as rotation, or was it

11 simply that fighters can't stay on the lines forever and sooner or later

12 they have to be replaced?

13 A. I am going to, again, state what I observed. What I observed

14 while I was there was that units had a semi-agreed method of rotating on

15 to and off the front lines. Please remember, this was March, it was cold,

16 particularly when they were out at night, and staying out for more than 24

17 hours at a time would be very rigorous if you didn't have the right winter

18 equipment to survive in that environment. These people did not, to my

19 observation, so staying out for more than 24 hours at a time would have

20 been difficult. Therefore, they sort of rotated in and out, with a

21 gentlemen's agreement, every 24 to 48 hours.

22 Q. A gentlemen's agreement means something not binding, correct?

23 A. That is correct. But let me rephrase that: Not binding but you

24 have a loyalty to your buddy. He's going to do it for you, you're going

25 to do it for him. It was more that close cohesiveness after years of

Page 15071

1 warfare that convinced them to support each other out of mutual loyalty.

2 Q. Now, I want to ask you about Motorolas and I want to remind you

3 what you said yesterday about that. It was page 66, lines 19 to 22, for

4 our reference, and you were talking the PTT building. You said: "In that

5 same room where I mentioned the ham radio operators, or in the adjacent

6 room, I can't quite remember which, they had torn-apart Motorola radios

7 that they were trying to piece together to form at least one functional

8 set."

9 Now, did you actually see functional Motorolas when you were in

10 Srebrenica?

11 A. No, I did not -- wait, let me take that back. I think there was

12 one instance where I saw a functional Motorola and that was the day that

13 we were doing the air evacuation of the wounded. I believe the police had

14 one in Srebrenica and another one down at the soccer field to confirm that

15 they had secured the area.

16 Q. Right. So apart from that, apart from that one or two that you

17 saw, you didn't see any other functioning Motorolas?

18 A. No, and I did not see them in active use and there didn't appear

19 to be a lot of them. Let me further elaborate: They didn't have the

20 electricity, except in the PTT building, to provide a charging unit for

21 these Motorolas, and therefore it was very difficult to keep them charged,

22 and also they didn't have repair parts for them. So when they broke, that

23 was it.

24 Q. And RUPs, did you see any functional RUPs?

25 A. I did see functional groups --

Page 15072

1 Q. RUPs, R-U-P. You were asked about RUPs. Firstly, is that

2 something different from a Motorola? You were asked about RUPs.

3 A. I don't know the definition of RUP, you would have to explain that

4 acronym to me.

5 Q. Okay. Well, it was something you were asked about, and aside from

6 the Motorolas, did you see any other hand-held device?

7 A. Not that I remember.

8 Q. And were you aware of any repeaters in the Srebrenica area?

9 A. No, I was not.

10 Q. Now, you were asked about couriers. Now, when you speak of

11 couriers, is that anything different from simply people running back and

12 forth? Is there actually anything you're referring to which is different

13 from that, people taking messages on foot?

14 A. A courier in this environment would have at least had some

15 experience with the terrain and the group he was working with and the key

16 leaders he would be delivering the messages to. So in that case I would

17 call him a semi-trained individual who knew a specific job.

18 Q. Right. I want to be clear about terminology versus what you

19 observed. Did you actually observe trained couriers taking messages back

20 and forth? Is that something you saw with your own eyes?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. And I think, in fact, in speaking on the subject, you referred to

23 earlier centuries, as a system which was used in earlier centuries. Is

24 people running back and forth with messages, is that a primitive or a

25 sophisticated form of communication?

Page 15073

1 A. It's the earliest form of communication in early warfare.

2 Q. Now, you were shown -- I don't think I need to necessarily put it

3 on the screen -- P446. It was a video, and you were asked about a

4 typewriter, whether you saw a typewriter. First of all, were you able to

5 see from that film when it was filmed or where it was filmed, or anything

6 of that nature at all?

7 A. I would like to state that it looked like it was early time in

8 Srebrenica, looking at the condition of the people sitting around the

9 table. And --

10 Q. May I stop you there. You might to see the video again, because I

11 would like to ask you why --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If I remember well, it does have a date.

13 MR. JONES: Well, there is a date on the screen. It doesn't

14 necessarily --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, but I ...


17 Q. Why do you say it was Srebrenica rather than Tuzla, Mostar, or any

18 other of a dozen different locations?

19 A. I can't claim that just from the location inside that room.

20 Q. That's what I was asking. Were you able to tell from that whether

21 the typewriter was operating; whether it had a ribbon, for example?

22 A. No, I could not tell that.

23 Q. And you were also directed to note that there was a pile of papers

24 and a pen. If you saw -- if you saw some papers and a pen, would you

25 conclude from that that all the conditions for C3I exist, that there's

Page 15074

1 command and control?

2 A. No, I would not.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think I'll stop there, in fact, because

4 I come to the exhibits.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 Lieutenant Colonel, we'll need to stop here. We've had a long

7 session, long sitting. We'll finish with you very quickly tomorrow

8 morning first thing. I do apologise to you for having you brought back

9 again tomorrow, and as well as to the representatives of the US

10 government. I do apologise to you, but I think we don't have any option.

11 I should like to thank the reporter in particular. I know how

12 hard it is to do that job for almost -- I don't know how many hours, I

13 lost count now. Thank you so much.

14 Thanks to the technicians and interpreters and the rest of the

15 staff.

16 We'll meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

19 December, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.