Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15428

1 Friday, 20 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, Madam Registrar. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric, and good morning to you as

14 well. You may be seated.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Also good morning to my learned friends

18 of the Defence. I'm here together with Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, Ms. Joanne

19 Richardson, and our case manager, Mrs. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

21 your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

24 is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I appear for

25 Mr. Oric. With us today are our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic. In the

Page 15429

1 course of the day we shall also be joined by other members of our team.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to

3 you and your team as well.

4 Are you feeling well?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I hear -- yes. We've got two options: We can

7 thrash any preliminaries now, all or some of them, if there are several;

8 or we can start with the witness straight away and finish with him. I

9 take it that you're both trying to finish with him today, aren't you?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my estimation, as

11 far as I'm concerned, at least, as I will be doing the

12 examination-in-chief, it will be a rather short testimony, unless there

13 are technical problems. I think it should be over in about an hour. I

14 have told my colleagues from the Prosecution this. We would be very happy

15 if Mr. Bilic could begin today and finish as soon as possible because he

16 has other obligations that cannot delayed next week at the end of the

17 week.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We would be very happy if we could do that.

19 Who will be examining the next witness?

20 MR. WUBBEN: I will do so, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you anticipate to have a short cross-examination

22 as well?

23 MR. WUBBEN: When it is Mr. Bilic --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no --

25 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise, Your Honour. It will be Mr. Gramsci Di

Page 15430

1 Fazio.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless there are some urgent matters that you would

3 like to raise in a preliminary way, I suggest that we start with the

4 witness and finish with him.

5 MR. WUBBEN: I agree, Your Honour. I have a submission to make

6 regarding the Trial Chamber expert, but that can wait.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Okay. So do you agree with this?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

10 Usher.

11 In the meantime, just to inform you, I hope to be able to sign,

12 during the break, the decision on your motion on Rule -- on Colonel Fenzel

13 or whatever his name is. And I take this opportunity to thank the

14 Prosecution for having come forward with their response yesterday, which

15 made it possible for us to work on it and come to a conclusion.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Monday we are working in the afternoon. Please do

18 remember that. This witness doesn't have any protective measures?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will be speaking in English, and my

23 words are being simultaneously translated to you in your own language so

24 as to make it possible for you to follow what is being said here. If

25 there are at any moment, at any time, problems with the reception of

Page 15431

1 interpretation, please draw my attention straight away. So on behalf of

2 the Tribunal, I should like to welcome you as a Defence witness. I'm the

3 Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius. I come from Malta. To my

4 right I am flanked by Judge Hans Hendrik Brydensholt from the Kingdom of

5 Denmark, and to my left, Judge Professor Albin Eser from the Republic of

6 Germany.

7 This is a case against Naser Oric, and you are one of the Defence

8 witnesses. Very soon you will start with your testimony, but before you

9 can do so our Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, equivalent

10 to an oath in several jurisdictions, to the effect that in the course of

11 your testimony you undertake to testify the truth, the whole truth, and

12 nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn declaration is going to be

13 handed to you now by Madam Usher. Please take it in your hands, read it

14 out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us, that you will

15 be testifying the truth.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And come as near as you can to the microphones.

21 Don't stay too far away from them because otherwise we'll have problems.

22 What's going to happen is Ms. Vidovic, who is lead counsel for Naser Oric

23 in this case, will be examining you in chief, and she will then be

24 followed by Mr. Di Fazio for the Prosecution on cross-examination. And we

25 hope to be able to send you back home very soon. For that to be possible,

Page 15432

1 we need your cooperation, and your cooperation consists not only in

2 testifying the truth but in keeping your answers as concise and as precise

3 as follows. Please don't give us more information than you are asked for.

4 Answer the questions that are put to you, whichever -- wherever they are

5 coming from. Answer each question truthfully, but answer the question,

6 the whole question, and nothing but the question. Thank you.

7 Ms. Vidovic.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Guster.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. In view of the fact that you and I speak the same language - and

14 I've already explained this to you during the proofing - I wish to ask you

15 to always pause for a moment after I put my question so that the

16 interpreters can interpret my question. Do you understand this?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Please tell Their Honours your full first and last name.

19 A. Ejub Guster.

20 Q. You're a Bosniak Muslim?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were born on the 18th of January, 1964, in Cerska in the

23 hamlet of Gusteri?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Your father's name is Ibran and your mother's name Hasna, nee

Page 15433

1 Avdic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You are married and you are the father of six?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. By occupation you are in charge of machinery -- a machine operator

6 in a mine?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You completed primary school in Cerska in 1978?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that, you completed secondary school in Vlasenica in 1982?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On completion of secondary school, you worked in various building

13 construction companies in Belgrade until 1991 when you lost your job in

14 the company called Ivan Milutinovic in Belgrade where you were made

15 redundant?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You served your military service in Pazen in the Republic of

18 Croatia in 1983, and in 1984 you were in the infantry, and after that you

19 were a dog handler?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. While working in Belgrade, you spent nearly every weekend in your

22 village of Gusteri?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Travelling from Belgrade to Gusteri and back you had occasion to

25 meet other people hailing from Podrinje and working in Belgrade in that

Page 15434

1 time period?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In the course of 1988, did you meet Mr. Naser Oric?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How?

6 A. We were introduced by some friends of mine from Cerska, who knew.

7 Q. Mr. Oric?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was Mr. Naser Oric doing at the time, do you remember?

10 A. He was working as a policeman in Belgrade.

11 Q. Did you have occasion to see him more than once before the

12 outbreak of the war?

13 A. Yes. In the course of 1998 --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology, 1988.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and 1989, yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Does that mean you knew him well?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a feeling that you need to pause a little bit

20 between question and answer. I can feel the tension in the interpreters'

21 booths. Thanks.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Guster, please pause just a little bit after my question so

24 that the question can be interpreted.

25 A. Very well.

Page 15435

1 Q. I asked you whether this means that you knew Mr. Oric well.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where were you when the war broke out?

4 A. When the war broke out, I was in Cerska, in my hamlet of Gusteri.

5 Q. Do you remember - and tell us very briefly - how the defence of

6 your hamlet of Gusteri was organised.

7 A. There was an armed group of men defending it.

8 Q. Who was at the head of that group?

9 A. Meho Velic.

10 Q. How many men were in the group?

11 A. About 20 men.

12 Q. What weapons did they have?

13 A. They were armed with hunting rifles.

14 Q. Did you personally belong to that armed group?

15 A. No, I didn't have a weapon. In agreement with the other

16 villagers, with the other villagers and two other men -- with two other

17 men, I collected food for the refugees.

18 Q. How did you collect that food?

19 A. We went into the woods to find fruits in the forest; mushrooms,

20 strawberries, anything else, berries; then we planted potatoes.

21 Q. How many refugees were there in your village in the course of 1992

22 before the fall of your hamlet?

23 A. About a thousand refugees. There were about a thousand in my

24 little hamlet of Gusteri.

25 Q. How many people in the course of 1992 stayed in your own house?

Page 15436

1 A. About 30 people stayed in my house.

2 Q. In the course of 1992, were you wounded?

3 A. Yes. On the 26th of September, 1992.

4 Q. How? In what way? How were you wounded?

5 A. I was on my way to dig potatoes in the area between us and the

6 Serbs, and I stepped on a land-mine.

7 Q. What injuries did you sustain on that occasion?

8 A. My heel and my lower leg were damaged.

9 Q. In Cerska could you get any kind of medical assistance?

10 A. No. There was no doctor, only a medical technician who didn't

11 have enough medicines or material.

12 Q. Until the beginning of 1993, did you manage to have your wound

13 heal?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did there come a time when, in your opinion, the situation in

16 Cerska grew much worse?

17 A. Yes. Towards the end of November 1992, the Serbs were attacking

18 Cerska intensively, more and more.

19 Q. What kind of attacks were these?

20 A. Infantry, artillery, and air attacks.

21 Q. What consequences did this have for the local population?

22 A. In my village, many people were killed and many people were

23 wounded.

24 Q. And what happened towards the end of January 1993 in Cerska?

25 A. The situation was very tense. Hamlet after hamlet started to

Page 15437

1 fall: Velici, Hodjici, Grbici, Ferhatovici, and finally my own hamlet of

2 Gusteri. These were all hamlets of Cerska.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Chamber would

4 find it helpful, we can have map D814 put on the ELMO so that the witness

5 can show where his hamlet is.


7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] During the proofing, you told me

8 that none of the maps that we had contained the village. Your Honours,

9 however, the witness is able to find and pinpoint the village on the map.

10 Q. Witness, can you pinpoint the village on the map, please?

11 A. I can't read the letters.

12 Q. Can you please take a look at the map itself.

13 A. By your leave, Your Honour --

14 Q. Please turn to your right, to the ELMO.

15 A. Yes, I found it. Velici, Hodjici --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can the technicians focus on that part of the map.

17 I think, Madam Usher, you need to put it further down, and then we

18 zoom in. Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Velici, Hodjici, Grbici.


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ferhatovici, and my village,

22 Gusteri.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates various spots

24 along the line drawn on the map between Velici and Hakalasi and between

25 Jasikovice and Mustajbasici.

Page 15438

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 The map can be returned.

3 Q. Mr. Guster, when did your village of Gusteri fall?

4 A. On the 3rd of February, 1993, the Serbs launched intense attacks

5 against the village of Gusteri.

6 Q. On that occasion, was your house in fact hit and destroyed?

7 A. Yes. On that occasion three shells landed on my own home, and in

8 the process my 5-year-old daughter was wounded, as were two more children

9 who were in my house. None of the children were older than 14. With the

10 children there, there were many refugees who were staying at my house.

11 Q. Were they wounded as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you do after the attack?

14 A. I left the house on the 3rd of February, 1993, because I

15 practically had nowhere to stay. I set out on foot along the river.

16 Q. Who did you set out with? Who was with you?

17 A. My wife, who was pregnant, and in her arms she was carrying my

18 wounded child. Even though it was wintertime, I was wearing only a shirt

19 because I did not manage to take anything else. The attack was a very

20 fierce one.

21 Q. What direction were you headed?

22 A. I set out with a mass of people in the direction of Konjevic

23 Polje.

24 Q. This massive group of people that you set out with toward Konjevic

25 Polje, was it able to proceed in peace?

Page 15439

1 A. No. There was intense shelling. Shells were landing, people were

2 getting killed, the children were screaming; there were many wounded.

3 Q. Did you, in spite of that, manage to reach Konjevic Polje?

4 A. Yes, I did. We were received by a family by the name of Ramici in

5 Konjevic Polje.

6 Q. How many people went over to Konjevic Polje from the area of

7 Cerska?

8 A. Thousands of people -- well, I say "thousands of people." There

9 were many. I don't know the exact numbers.

10 Q. How long did you stay in Konjevic Polje?

11 A. About a month.

12 Q. Where is the house of the Ramic family in Konjevic Polje located?

13 A. It was about 100 metres away from the school there.

14 Q. After you had arrived in Konjevic Polje, did the Serb forces start

15 exerting pressure on Konjevic Polje as well?

16 A. Yes. There were intense attacks from the direction of Zvornik and

17 Bilici [as interpreted] because one knew that Konjevic Polje was going to

18 fall imminently.

19 Q. Do you recall --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, Your Honour, I wish to

21 enter a correction for the record. The witness said: "From the direction

22 of Zvornik and Milici," not Bilici.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic.

24 Do you agree, Mr. Guster?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 15440

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you remember whether representatives of UNPROFOR forces came to

3 Konjevic Polje?

4 A. Yes, on the 6th of March, 1993.

5 Q. Can you tell us what you recall of the events taking place on the

6 6th of March, 1993?

7 A. Yes: Throngs of people gathered around the school which was near

8 to the house where I was staying.

9 Q. Yes, go on.

10 A. The people who gathered there realised that the fall of Konjevic

11 Polje was imminent.

12 Q. The people there, including yourself, were you hoping that

13 somebody was going to assist you, help you?

14 A. Yes. We were hoping that the UNPROFOR was going to help us.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this time, Your Honour, I would

16 like a video-clip to be played, P427, a Prosecution exhibit, one out of

17 two videos, 3284, point started at 00.30.32, ending at 00.30.49.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Guster, do you recall these scenes? Have you witnessed them?

21 A. Yes. This happened on the 6th of March, 1993 in Konjevic Polje.

22 Q. Were you among the people here?

23 A. Yes, I was some 10 to 15 metres away from this point among the

24 people gathered who can be seen here in this frame.

25 Q. Do you recognise the man with grey hair on this video?

Page 15441

1 A. Yes. That's General Morillon.

2 Q. Did you see him that day there?

3 A. Yes, he was there on that day, in Konjevic Polje.

4 Q. Did you take a good look at him?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know the person who General Morillon is talking to?

7 A. Yes, that's my neighbour, Tauric, who used to work in Switzerland

8 before the war. Talovic, he spoke French well. That's why he's talking

9 to General Morillon.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the video-clip to be

11 played further, up to 31.15.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you recognise anyone on this still?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who?

17 A. Mr. Oric. In the yellow -- with the yellow hood. He was in

18 Konjevic Polje on that day. That's the man with the yellow hood.

19 Q. Very well. You told us that you knew Mr. Oric before the war.

20 Did you know anything about his role when you saw him there -- or rather,

21 let me ask you this first: Did you see Oric in this mass of people on

22 that day?

23 A. Yes. He is the man, the man with the yellow hood.

24 Q. Very well. At the time, were you familiar with his -- with the

25 role that he played in this time period?

Page 15442

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did anybody from among the people there speak to you about Oric or

3 about his role or his activities at the time?

4 A. No. The people were only concerned with their own safety. Nobody

5 was interested in these matters at the time.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the clip be played further,

7 until 32.03, and stop there.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you remember seeing this person that day?

11 A. Yes. He is a Muslim from Srebrenica who was there, interpreting

12 for the UNPROFOR members.

13 Q. Do you know his name?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Did you leave Konjevic Polje together with your family?

16 A. Yes, I did; on the 9th of March, 1993.

17 Q. What was your journey to Konjevic Polje -- or rather, what was

18 your journey from Konjevic Polje to Srebrenica like?

19 A. I set out on the journey with a large group of people; men, women,

20 and children. On the way, many shells landed on these large numbers of

21 civilians. There was artillery from the direction of --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of the

23 location.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please repeat the name of the location from which the

Page 15443

1 shellings -- the shells you mentioned earlier were fired.

2 A. From Tumace. The shelling came from the direction of Tumace.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 Do you recall the events happening in Hrncic Polje, or rather, did

5 you pass through Hrncic Polje?

6 A. Yes. On the 9th of March, 1993, when I reached Hrncic Polje,

7 there was a shell hitting a large group of people, some 100 of them were

8 killed. My cousin Mejra Uvalic, her head was blown up by the shell that

9 landed.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are terrible

11 scenes that this Trial Chamber has to see.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I should

13 refrain from putting such questions to the witness.

14 Q. Were you talking about Mejra or the child?

15 A. Mejra was holding a child in her arms, and it was the child's head

16 that was blown up by the shell.

17 Q. Mr. Guster, can you continue?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. One moment. Sorry -- I apologise to

20 you, Ms. Vidovic, for interrupting you. But I am informed that the

21 witness was asking for a break and that somehow this was not brought to

22 our attention.

23 Do you need a short break?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can continue. I have overcome the

25 moment. Because these scenes that I experienced -- this was just a

Page 15444

1 moment.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Guster, I will no longer inquire after these matters. I wish

4 to ask you the following --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When did you finally arrive in Srebrenica?

8 A. On the 9th of March, 1993, I arrived in Srebrenica with my family.

9 Q. Where did you find accommodation, if any?

10 A. We stayed outdoors, out in the street. Although it was

11 wintertime, I was wearing only a shirt. I remember that we found some old

12 disused car tires that we set fire to to -- for heating.

13 Q. How long did you spend outdoors with your family?

14 A. About five days.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we play a

16 video-clip at this time, number 3671, which we received from Prosecution

17 with receipt number 266A, from 00.56.46 up until 00.56.3 -- 56. So please

18 stop at 00.56.56.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Guster, do you know what is shown in this video?

22 A. Yes. This is the cemetery in Srebrenica. These -- the people

23 were -- who were on their way from Konjevic Polje to Srebrenica and got

24 killed in the process were buried here. There were women and children

25 among them.

Page 15445

1 Q. Is this the cemetery where you buried people who got killed on

2 their way from Konjevic Polje to Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes, I've said so.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please can we play the video

5 further.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Guster, are these the scenes you saw after you arrived in

9 Srebrenica in March 1993?

10 A. Yes. These were the scenes that I, myself, saw out in the street,

11 as did the people who were shown on the video.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this video please

13 be assigned an exhibit number, a Defence exhibit number?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the next number?

15 THE REGISTRAR: D1008, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: D1008. So this video -- the video that you've shown

17 is -- contains more than what we have seen or just the segment that we

18 have seen?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a clip of the

20 video, but the entire video footage contains scenes such as these.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No, but what you are tendering in

22 evidence, in other words, is this part that we have seen and not anything

23 else, not anything beyond that.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So this video-clip that we have seen is

Page 15446

1 being tendered in evidence and is being given Exhibit Number D1008.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones -- Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no problem at all, of course, with the video

5 going into evidence, but I would like to see it before I cross-examine.


7 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't seen it. No, not the whole thing. I

8 understand --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's the whole thing that's being

10 tendered.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I put the question.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, then I misunderstood. I've got no

14 problem.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I had the same preoccupation, concern you had. I

16 was asking precisely whether it was a video-recording containing more

17 scenes than what we have seen and more material than what was being

18 tendered or whether it was just what we saw on the screen a few minutes

19 ago, and I'm told that it's only what we saw on the screen that's being

20 tendered. All right?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is why I specified

23 the times from/to for the record, to avoid any confusion, and we have

24 copies prepared.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. And that's why I pointed -- I

Page 15447

1 asked the question, actually, because I could anticipate a problem. So,

2 yes, let's move ahead.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Guster, did you manage to find accommodation somewhere in

5 Srebrenica at last?

6 A. Yes, on the fifth day I found accommodation in a building. We

7 cleared rubble out of an apartment which did not have windows or doors. I

8 got nylon from a man that I was able to put on the windows, and I found a

9 blanket that I put into the door post. And we -- I found some sheets and

10 bedding so that we didn't have to stay out in the street anymore.

11 Q. Did you have any food or water at the time?

12 A. No. The water was polluted and I didn't have any food.

13 Q. How did you survive?

14 A. We ate hazel tree catkin. That's how we managed to get by.

15 Q. After this, Mr. Guster, what happened to your family?

16 A. On the 19th of March, 1993, I managed to put my wife, children,

17 and mother-in-law on an UNPROFOR truck that was headed to Tuzla, although

18 my wife was -- was pregnant, she managed to bring my children to Tuzla

19 alive. There were many women and children on the trucks, and their

20 children had difficulties surviving the journey.

21 Q. You said that the children actually suffocated on their way to

22 Tuzla?

23 A. Yes. That's what my wife told me of her journey from Srebrenica

24 to Tuzla. On the truck with her there was a neighbour, a lady, who had

25 her sons there, and they suffocated simply because of the numbers of

Page 15448

1 people crammed up there.

2 Q. Did you stay behind in Srebrenica after you sent your wife away;

3 and what did you do?

4 A. Yes, I stayed behind in Srebrenica. I reported to the

5 municipality to help with the evacuation of the wounded. On the 19th of

6 March, 1993, a convoy carrying food came. And on that same day, I went

7 out.

8 Q. After having reported there, did you regularly go to the

9 municipality building?

10 A. Yes. I spent the entire days there, from early in the morning

11 until late at night, together with the others, waiting for an UNPROFOR APC

12 in order to be evacuated.

13 Q. Do you recall whether you were there on the 21st of March, 1993,

14 or not?

15 A. Yes, I was there on the 21st of March, 1993. I was there in front

16 of the municipality.

17 Q. Do you recall what time of day it was when you arrived in front of

18 the municipality building?

19 A. I was there at 7.00 in the morning in front of the municipal

20 building, waiting for an UNPROFOR vehicle to evacuate the wounded.

21 Q. Do you recall who was with you there?

22 A. I was with the people from Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Kamenica.

23 Q. Do you remember specifically the names of some of the persons you

24 were with?

25 A. Yes. From Kamenica and Konjevic Polje, his nickname was Bujak [as

Page 15449

1 interpreted]. His name Sahin Zahirovic, another person also from Konjevic

2 Polje. We were standing in front of the municipal building, waiting, and

3 discussing what we would do in case the wounded were not evacuated. We

4 thought it wise to set out for Tuzla on foot because we felt that the fall

5 of Srebrenica was imminent. We discussed these issues and stayed there

6 until some time.

7 Q. Mr. Guster, I apologise. Can you please repeat the names of the

8 persons because the record shows that you were with the person called

9 Bujak.

10 A. No. His nickname was Burik. I don't know his name.

11 Q. Therefore Burek?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. B-u-r-e-k?

14 A. Yes, exactly. Not B-u-r-i-k but B-u-r-e-k.

15 Q. And can you repeat the name of the other person.

16 A. Sakim Zahirovic [phoen].

17 Q. S-a-h-i-n; isn't that right, Mr. Guster?

18 A. Yes. An "n" at the end, not an "m."

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is very important

20 for us, that's why I insist.

21 Q. Witness, please. From the point where you were standing with

22 these men, were you able to see the street leading to the post office in

23 Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes. We could see the length of the street, and there is a clear

25 line of sight all the way to the post office. We could see the UNPROFOR

Page 15450

1 vehicle because the UNPROFOR was based in the PTT.

2 Q. Did there come a time on that day when you observed the appearance

3 of a vehicle?

4 A. Yes. It was an UNPROFOR APC.

5 Q. Do you recall about what time this APC turned up?

6 A. Yes. It was at around 10.30. On that day a man from Konjevic

7 Polje was there who had a watch.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

9 be shown a photograph. Could the photograph also be placed on the ELMO,

10 please. Could you please lower it a little. Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, do you recognise anyone on this photograph?

12 A. Yes, that's me, observing the carrying of ill people, patients,

13 into the APC on stretchers. That's me. I was wearing a check shirt and

14 dark trousers.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember this scene, Mr. Guster?

16 A. Yes, I remember it very well. This was on the 21st of March,

17 1993.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this photograph be

19 given an exhibit number, please?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Ms. Vidovic. This photograph will

21 become Defence Exhibit D1009.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Guster, you told us that you observed an APC turning up, an

24 UNPROFOR APC, and that it was moving from the direction of the post office

25 toward the centre. Do you remember whether in front of this APC there was

Page 15451

1 another dark luxury vehicle or not?

2 A. No. We were watching the APC closely and its movements.

3 Q. Why were you watching the movements of the APC closely?

4 A. We wanted to see where it would stop, where it would park, so that

5 we could get as close to it as possible, because I was hoping to get into

6 it myself and be evacuated.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like a new

8 video-clip to be played now. We will view it in stages.

9 Q. Mr. Guster, please look at the video very carefully. Can you

10 please play it and stop at 0.04.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Guster, please look at the road in front of the vehicle. Can

14 you see it?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you play the video further.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Is this the road you were observing on that day, leading from the

20 post office to the municipal building?

21 A. Yes. That is the street --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the

23 street.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- leading from the post office to

25 the municipal building.

Page 15452

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you tell us the name of the street?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the name.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, we are at 00.15.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you play on.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Is this the road we were talking about? Is it still the same

8 road?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please play on.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please take a good look at this still. Do you know anyone in this

14 still?

15 A. Yes. In the bottom left-corner, wearing a white jacket, that's

16 Sahin Zahirovic, from Konjevic Polje, who was with me that morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. For the record, we are at 01.32.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please play on.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you recognise anyone now on this still?

22 A. Yes. A man from Konjevic Polje whose nickname was Burek.

23 Q. Can you take the pointer and indicate -- is that him?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, we are at 01.41, and the

25 witness indicates the first person on the far left of the still. Yes.

Page 15453

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Guster, will you tell us his name, or nickname, again.

3 A. Yes. He's a man from Konjevic Polje, and his nickname was Burek.

4 Q. Very well.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please play on.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you recognise someone now?

9 A. Yes. That's me, wearing a shirt. I am observing the wounded

10 being carried into the APC on stretchers.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And please play the video to the end

12 now.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And we were at still 02.25.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Guster, do you remember the details of the event which we saw

17 on the video-clip?

18 A. Yes. This was on the 21st of March, 1993.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this video in evidence?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course, Your Honours.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser would like to know the provenance --

23 Judge Brydensholt. So this video has just been played, been tendered by

24 the Defence, and marked as Defence D1010.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we cannot discuss this

Page 15454

1 before the witness right now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We received it from a source which

4 we don't wish to reveal now. All I can say is that Mr. Birtley saw the

5 entire clip together with us.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But the source is a sensitive one.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Let's go ahead.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you remember what happened after the UNPROFOR vehicle parked?

11 A. Yes. The vehicle arrived at the municipal building. Across the

12 street from the municipal building is a department store on the left-hand

13 side, and that's where the vehicle parked.

14 Q. Do you remember what happened after the vehicle parked?

15 A. The door of the APC opened, and several UNPROFOR soldiers came

16 out. They had UN insignia and they were wearing blue helmets on their

17 heads.

18 Q. Did someone come out of the vehicle who did not have a blue helmet

19 on his head or a uniform?

20 A. Yes. Two people in civilian clothes got out. One was filming;

21 the other one had an arm missing.

22 Q. What happened after that?

23 A. The man wearing civilian clothes who had an arm missing set out

24 with two UNPROFOR men along the street from the municipal building to a

25 private house at the top of the street.

Page 15455

1 Q. How far was this house from the place you were standing in?

2 A. About 150 metres, not more.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness now be

4 shown paragraph C2. Your Honours, it's already on the screen.

5 Q. Witness, do you see a picture on the screen?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us what you recognise, if anything, on this

8 photograph.

9 A. Yes. This is that house.

10 Q. Indicate it, please.

11 A. Yes. This is the house at the top of the street where the armless

12 man with two UNPROFOR men went.

13 Q. Do you remember --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So one moment, Ms. Vidovic, please. For the record,

15 the witness points at the house which is shown on the photo between the

16 two buildings on the sides -- on the sides.

17 Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Can you describe what you remember, what happened next, if you

20 remember.

21 A. Yes. The man without an arm, who went with two UNPROFOR men,

22 entered the house -- or rather, they came to the entrance to the house,

23 which was at the side of the house. We were watching this. We were

24 looking to see what was happening.

25 Q. Do you remember what happened after that?

Page 15456

1 A. No. We thought they had gone to collect someone who was wounded

2 or ill. We didn't know what this was about.

3 Q. At some point did you see anyone around the house again?

4 A. Yes. Some ten minutes later, or maybe even less, a tall man came

5 out. He was wearing a uniform. He came to the corner of the house, and

6 he was waving his hand, indicating to us that he needed help. He was

7 beckoning to us who were near the APC.

8 Q. When you say "us," will you say who you mean.

9 A. Yes: Me, Sahin, and Burek.

10 Q. Did any of you go there to help?

11 A. Yes, Sahin and Burek went along the street from a spot near the

12 municipal building towards the house. At one point, two UNPROFOR men

13 showed up, and they were leading a sick person who was leaning against

14 them. Sahin and Burek ran up, as did another man. They took over that

15 person from the UNPROFOR men and brought the person to a stretcher. The

16 UNPROFOR soldiers took over the person and put the person on a stretcher

17 and put the stretcher in the APC.

18 Q. Did you yourself approach the house?

19 A. No, I didn't. Sahin did and so did Burek. I was just watching

20 all the time because I had a bad leg. My leg was painful and I couldn't

21 walk. I was trying to get into the APC myself to be evacuated.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to show the

23 videotape from 01.26 to 01.33. For purposes of identification.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly we will do that very soon, yes,

25 Ms. Vidovic.

Page 15457

1 Yes, Judge Eser.

2 JUDGE ESER: Before we go back to the video, could we perhaps see

3 once more the last picture, C2.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can. Of course we can.

5 JUDGE ESER: The picture -- the photo of the front of the house.

6 That was C2, I think. Now, could the witness be asked where he was

7 standing while he was watching the events he talked about. At what corner

8 -- from what corner he was watching the scene --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether he was in this street or lane --

10 JUDGE ESER: And when he spoke of a street or a road, did he mean

11 this road going back to --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably it's not --

13 JUDGE ESER: Just to make it clear.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, have you understood the Court's question?

17 A. Yes, yes, I understand it. As I said, the APC parked near the

18 municipal building, and that's in the street leading to this private

19 house, which is at the top of the street, looking from the municipal

20 building. I was standing next to the APC, observing, because I was

21 wounded, and I was trying to get into the APC.

22 Q. Witness, let me clarify. From the spot where you were standing,

23 were you able to see the entire street leading to this house?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I was.

25 Q. Were you able to see the house or the corner of the house you are

Page 15458

1 talking about?

2 A. Yes, yes, I could see it. But I couldn't see the entrance because

3 the entrance was at the side of the house.

4 JUDGE ESER: So basically what you see on the photo you could also

5 see when you were standing in front of the municipal building. So we have

6 a view, similar view as you have made on the photo. Is that correct?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so, no.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the house. I couldn't see

9 the house from any other angle because I was standing next to the APC,

10 near the municipal building. I don't know of any other house. This is

11 the house where the UNPROFOR man went.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, in connection with this, another question: When this was

15 going on, were there people in the street or was it empty?

16 A. Well, you could see the whole street. There weren't people there.

17 There were no people between the APC and the house. The street was empty.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as it's time for a

20 break, maybe we can play the video after the break.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I perfectly agree with you, Ms. Vidovic. So

22 we'll have a 30-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we were going to see again part of the same

Page 15459

1 video. Wait until the accused has got his -- it's okay. We can proceed

2 now, Ms. Vidovic. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please play the video.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, please look at this still once again. Can you see that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You don't see anything on your screen?

9 A. I can see the text only.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, Usher -- you will be assisted by our usher.

11 It's no problem.

12 Then perhaps do you want him to see the previous -- or just this

13 still that there is on the screen now, on the monitor now?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like the witness to

15 identify the persons he mentioned.

16 Q. Please take a look at this photograph and tell us who you know and

17 who you had seen at the time.

18 A. At the top left corner, there's Sahin Zahirovic in the white

19 jacket; and I can see the person who's ill, wounded, who's being taken;

20 and I can see the person in the blue jacket, who I don't know. I can also

21 see a tall man in uniform who was beckoning to us to come to their

22 assistance, to us who were standing by the APC. I don't know the man,

23 though.

24 Q. Is that the person the arrow is pointing at?

25 A. Yes. That's the man who came out of the house that was at the

Page 15460

1 corner, who was not with the UNPROFOR. He was with a man who had one arm

2 missing and was wearing civilian clothes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Pause for the time being. We are, for

4 the record, at 01.31, and the last person the witness refers to is

5 standing to the right of a person wearing a -- what appears to be a purple

6 jacket and a dark cap in the centre of the photograph. The person that is

7 being carried by -- this person with the purple jacket and the -- and --

8 and the soldier -- what appears to be a soldier, with a blue cap,

9 presumably an UNPROFOR soldier, the one in the middle, the injured or --

10 person, do you recognise the person? Do you know who he is? The one who

11 was ultimately carried away and put on a stretcher?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the sick person who was taken

13 out of that house. I don't know him.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you have -- you have no idea whether he

15 was Bosnian, he was Serbian or Croat or any other kind of nationality?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 Yes, let's -- do you want to show more to the witness from this

19 video or not?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this time, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In connection with this, Witness, did you take a good look at the

24 person who was placed on the stretcher, the person His Honour was asking

25 you about? Did you take a good look at him when he was laying on the

Page 15461

1 stretcher whilst being taken into the APC?

2 A. Yes. I saw him. He was very exhausted and very ill, as were all

3 of us who were waiting there next to the APC.

4 Q. Did he have any visible injuries or bruises on his face?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did he have any bandages on him that you were able to see?

7 A. I was looking at the person carefully in order to see whether I'd

8 recognise the person on the stretcher.

9 Q. And did you recognise him?

10 A. No. Nobody recognised him at the time.

11 Q. At one point I asked you whether the person had any sort of

12 bandages on him that you were able to see.

13 A. No. There were no bandages. I looked at the person quite

14 carefully, the person on the stretcher.

15 Q. Very well. Do you remember what happened next, after the APC

16 left?

17 A. Yes. I was watching closely when the man on the stretcher was

18 being put on the APC. At one point I even got on to the APC, but the --

19 there was one soldier there who told me to get out. And then the man on

20 the stretcher was put in and the door closed, the door of the APC, that

21 is.

22 Q. Do you recall what happened next when the door of the APC was

23 closed?

24 A. We were desperate because we were not the ones among those who

25 were in the APC. We wanted to be evacuated. We started yelling at this

Page 15462

1 tall man who we saw on the video wearing a uniform.

2 Q. Why were you addressing him in particular?

3 A. We were under the impression that he was involved in what was

4 going on. We didn't really know what was going on.

5 Q. Was this person a Bosnian Muslim or a foreigner?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Did he speak Bosnian when you addressed him, the tall man, I mean?

8 A. He spoke Bosnian. All of us spoke Serbo-Croat. One could not

9 distinguish who was who based on that.

10 Q. Very well. You told us earlier that you saw the man without an

11 arm who went in the direction of that house. Did there come a time that

12 he showed up again after the APC left, or not?

13 A. Yes. This person without an arm, wearing civilian clothes, who

14 had come out of that house, came to us and told us that the APC had left

15 for Zvornik and not for Tuzla.

16 Q. Prior to this event, did you know this person who had one arm

17 missing?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When the APC left, did you get to know anything about this man?

20 A. Yes. We took quite an interest in him because he was with the

21 UNPROFOR men. We started yelling at him, telling him why we weren't able

22 to be evacuated with the APC since we were wounded as well. The people

23 who were close by addressed him by the name of Zele and told us that Zele

24 was a policeman.

25 Q. After this happened, were you able to see this one-armed policeman

Page 15463

1 in Srebrenica again?

2 A. Yes. Two or three months later, I saw him in Srebrenica on

3 several occasions. Everybody said that he was a policeman, nothing more.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown a

6 photograph, Defence exhibit. The photograph is part of the clip from

7 D890.

8 Q. Witness, please take a look at the photograph. Do you recognise

9 anyone shown in this photograph?

10 A. Yes, that's the man.

11 Q. Can you describe the man you have in mind?

12 A. This is the man without the arm. At the time I saw him, he did

13 not have a uniform; he was wearing civilian clothes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the man who was with the

16 UNPROFOR men on that day.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Which of the three? Tell us, please.

19 A. The one in the middle. At the time, his hair was longer and he

20 had stubble.

21 Q. The beard you're mentioning, was it a long one or a short one?

22 A. A short one. It was stubble.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this photograph be

25 assigned an exhibit number?

Page 15464

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly, Ms. Vidovic. This will become

2 Defence Exhibit D1011.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, do you remember whether you spent a longer period of time

5 in front of the municipal building on that day?

6 A. Yes. As I've said, I was standing in front of the municipal

7 building from very early on in the morning.

8 Q. And after these events, did you stay there for a long time still?

9 A. Yes. Until the evening. We were standing there waiting for the

10 APC to return in order for us to be evacuated as well.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we play the video-clip again and

12 the part from 02.10 to 02.16. Please stop at 02.16.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, please watch this part of the video closely and tell us

16 whether you remember seeing on that day a car that was close to the scene

17 of these events.

18 A. Yes. The car that can be seen in the video. At 7.00 in the

19 morning, when I came to the municipal building, the car was parked there

20 throughout the morning.

21 Q. How come you remember this?

22 A. I remember this very well because my leg hurt and I was leaning

23 against the car as I was waiting for the APC to come.

24 Q. Do you recall what sort of car it was?

25 A. I don't know whether it was dark blue - navy blue - or black. I'm

Page 15465

1 not sure. I haven't noticed the make. It was a very dirty car indeed.

2 Q. I'll ask you about another detail, if you remember. Was it a car

3 with dark, tinted glass or did it have the normal sort of glass on the

4 windows?

5 A. I remember that it wasn't dark tinted because I glanced into the

6 interior of the car to see whether I'd find any food there. I was hungry.

7 Q. Very well. You've told us several times that you watched

8 carefully what was going on around you. You also told us that you saw

9 General Morillon. Do you remember if General Morillon was there when this

10 particular person was put on the APC and taken to Zvornik? Was he present

11 at the location where this happened at any time during the day?

12 A. No. He wasn't there at any time. I was closely observing

13 UNPROFOR men. They were very young, and General Morillon wasn't there on

14 that day, on the day this event occurred.

15 Q. At this particular place on that day, was there Naser Oric to be

16 found in the vicinity of this person you called sick at any time?

17 A. No. I was following what was happening closely, and I saw the

18 sick man being brought over, placed on the stretcher, and into the APC. I

19 saw the APC's door being closed. On that day Naser Oric was not there.

20 Q. If Naser Oric had been there in the vicinity of this sick person,

21 as you call him, would you have noticed him?

22 A. Yes, I would have noticed him. I was observing what was going on.

23 Q. Witness, if someone were to assert that in front of the APC a

24 black Mercedes or any other black vehicle arrived on that day and that

25 Oric got out of that car and he himself personally handed that person over

Page 15466

1 to the UNPROFOR men, on the basis of what you saw that day, would that be

2 true?

3 A. No. It wouldn't. What I said today is true because I was

4 following what was going on. I was observing as the person was placed on

5 the stretcher and put into the APC.

6 Q. Please, at any time prior to this event or after this event, did

7 you see Naser Oric there or did any one of those present there mention

8 him?

9 A. No, nobody did. Nobody could say that he was there when I myself

10 never mentioned his name. I myself was there and following everything

11 closely.

12 Q. Did UNPROFOR ever evacuate you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you tell His Honours when it was that you left Srebrenica.

15 A. In the month of July 1993, with a group of people. I set out for

16 Tuzla on foot. People with me were from Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and

17 Kamenica. On our way to Tuzla -- or rather, as we were going to Tuzla,

18 many people got killed. At nightfall a large group set out for Tuzla. At

19 a place near Han Pijesak they were ambushed and more than 80 people were

20 killed.

21 Q. How many people from your group managed to reach Tuzla?

22 A. About 30 or so people managed to get through. We were waylaid at

23 several places along our way.

24 Q. And how many of you did head out for the journey?

25 A. Some 80 or so of us, whereas the other group was a bit larger.

Page 15467

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

2 further questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Vidovic.

4 Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

7 Q. Mr. Guster, my name is Di Fazio; I have a few questions for you.

8 You met Mr. Oric in 1988. Where did you meet him?

9 A. Yes. On my way to work from Cerska to Belgrade. We were on a

10 bus.

11 Q. Did you know him before that or is that the first time you made

12 his acquaintance?

13 A. In 1988 and in 1989, when all of us worked together, we knew each

14 other and would see each other. Other than that, we did not meet.

15 Q. Okay. So I understand, do I, correctly, that the first time you

16 actually met Mr. Oric or were introduced to him, found out who he was, was

17 on your way from Cerska to Belgrade. Do I understand you correctly?

18 A. I don't recall the date.

19 Q. No, that's okay. I understand that. But it was in 1988, was it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you continue to see him in Belgrade?

24 A. No. We did not meet in Belgrade because we were doing different

25 jobs.

Page 15468

1 Q. Right. Okay. So you had no contact with him in Belgrade while

2 you were there up until the time you returned to Cerska, at around the

3 time the war started?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Right. So am I correct that you don't -- up until the war

6 started, you only met Mr. Oric once. Is that correct or not? Do I

7 understand you correctly?

8 A. Yes. As I've said, that was in the period from 1988 to 1989. It

9 was in that period that I saw him perhaps twice or three times. But I did

10 not see him in Belgrade. We would meet on our journey there.

11 Q. Oh, I see. I understand you now. So you were working in Belgrade

12 and you would come back home from time to time and you would see Mr. Oric

13 on the bus as you were coming back. Now do I understand you correctly?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Belgrade?

16 A. From the people who introduced me to him from Cerska, they told me

17 that he worked as a policeman in Belgrade.

18 Q. Do you know doing -- precisely what sort of job he was doing as a

19 policeman in Belgrade? Do you have any information about that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. So would it be fair to say that by time war started he

22 wasn't exactly a friend of yours or well-known to you; he was just a

23 person who you'd met on a couple of occasions and had been introduced to.

24 An acquaintance more than a friend. Would that be -- would that be a fair

25 assessment?

Page 15469

1 A. Well, yes. We knew each other only from those trips we made. We

2 did not meet for coffee. It was only whilst we were travelling that we

3 would meet each other, and that was how we got to know each other.

4 Q. You saw a clip earlier on this morning. Madam Vidovic showed you

5 a clip where you could see Mr. Oric in a crowd wearing a yellow -- a

6 jacket with a yellow hood. At that point of time, your relationship with

7 Mr. Oric was still the same, wasn't it? In other words, you were just

8 acquaintances, nothing more.

9 A. Yes. I was among the large group of people, some 10 to 15 metres

10 away, when at one point Naser Oric showed up wearing this yellow hood.

11 Q. Had you met him and spoken to him in 1992 in -- I'm thinking in

12 particular of the period following the outbreak of war.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know what he was doing in the period of time between the

15 outbreak of war in 1992 and that occasion when you saw him with the yellow

16 hood?

17 A. No. The people were preoccupied with saving their own skin.

18 Nobody was interested in Naser Oric at the time. I didn't know who he was

19 or what he was doing at the time. We were merely concerned with coming

20 out alive.

21 Q. Was he a well-known figure in your village of Gusteri or in the

22 villages of Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and other villages in your area? Was

23 he a well-known figure?

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. You never heard anything about his activities or conduct, what he

Page 15470

1 was doing, during the war in 1992? You had no information about that at

2 all. Correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. This -- I just want to ask you some questions about this group

5 that you -- that you mentioned in your -- in your village of Gusteri. It

6 was a group of about 20 men, and you couldn't become part of it because

7 you didn't have a weapon. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. I didn't have a weapon.

9 Q. Its leader was a gentleman named Meho Velic. Do you know how he

10 became its leader?

11 A. I remember only that we got together, and someone said: There's a

12 war breaking out. There are no weapons. People only had hunting rifles.

13 That wasn't enough.

14 Q. Okay. Did that group stay the same in size and did that group

15 keep the same weapons throughout 1992?

16 A. Yes. Throughout 1992 they had the same weapons. As for the

17 group, it got smaller and smaller because people got killed.

18 Q. So it never increased in size, expanding, and it never acquired

19 any further weapons, perhaps captured through fighting, that you're aware

20 of anyway?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And Mr. Velic, Meho Velic, was he ever answerable to anyone else

23 other than the -- other than the people who were -- who composed the

24 group?

25 A. No. It was the hamlet that this group with Meho Velic were

Page 15471

1 defending. He didn't give any information to anybody.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know if the group ever cooperated with other groups

3 in the area in fighting the Serbs?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I'm sorry, just to be clear, by that do you mean you have no idea,

6 you have no knowledge, or are you saying that it never cooperated with

7 other groups, other local village groups in the area, in fighting the

8 Serbs?

9 A. I wasn't part of the group, and I didn't find out what the group

10 was doing because all I was doing was collecting food with other unarmed

11 men who went with me to collect food for the refugees who were arriving in

12 my hamlet.

13 Q. Right. Right. Were you ever aware of this group of armed men

14 from Gusteri go -- leaving the village and going off to fight in other

15 areas around -- in the Srebrenica area?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Did you go to Srebrenica at all in the period of time from

18 the outbreak of war up until I think -- or let me rephrase that. When did

19 you -- when did you actually go to Srebrenica and take up residence there,

20 the town of Srebrenica?

21 A. I didn't go to Srebrenica before the war, and I didn't know

22 Srebrenica. It was only when the war broke out and when the Serbs, I

23 might say, expelled us. That was when I went to Srebrenica, and I only

24 stayed there briefly. This was in 1993.

25 Q. Okay, okay. Thank you. So -- I understand that you went to

Page 15472

1 Srebrenica. All I want to know is about when you went. From your

2 evidence, it says that you were wounded in September and that you

3 experienced the attack of the Serbs in November 1992, and that in January

4 1993 hamlets started to fall in your area, fall to Serb forces. Does --

5 do I understand you correctly that you actually only went to take up

6 residence in Srebrenica in either January or February or March of 1993?

7 Do I -- is that correct?

8 A. No. It was on the 9th of March, 1993.

9 Q. Okay. Right. Up until that point, had you visited Srebrenica?

10 From April of 1992 to that point, the 9th of March, 1993, had you visited

11 Srebrenica during that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. Just let's go back to Mr. Oric. In 1988 or 1989, indeed

14 1990, perhaps 1991 as well, do you know if Mr. Oric had a little -- had a

15 Renault, was driving around in a Renault in the Srebrenica area?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Did you ever see a black Mercedes Benz in Srebrenica at all in

18 1993 or 1992?

19 A. No, I never saw that. I'm not really that familiar with car

20 makes, though.

21 Q. Okay. That car that you spoke about just a few moments ago that

22 you could see in the clip, did you see that car move around on the day

23 that you -- that you observed all the events you spoke about?

24 A. The vehicle I mentioned was there from the early morning hours

25 when I went to the front of the municipal building to await the arrival of

Page 15473

1 the APC. That car was parked there.

2 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the events in the 6th -- on the 6th of

3 March, 1993. You hadn't had much news from the outside world, I take it.

4 You weren't receiving television broadcasts or radio broadcasts from the

5 outside world. You didn't have any idea what was happening in the rest of

6 Bosnia. Is that fair, a fair comment?

7 A. Yes, you are right. We didn't have electric power either, so we

8 couldn't follow everything that was happening all over Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina. We were focussed only on saving our own lives. We were an

10 unarmed people trying to stay alive.

11 Q. Right. Okay.

12 A. And to keep our families alive.

13 Q. I understand. And therefore, you have no idea at all, would you,

14 of the identities and the names of UNPROFOR personnel working in Bosnia,

15 would you, what they looked like?

16 A. They were different from us. They wore UNPROFOR uniforms and caps

17 and UN insignia.

18 Q. Yeah, I understand that. I have no problem with that. I

19 understand that perfectly well. What I'm saying is: Prior to the 6th of

20 March, you had no idea about the names and personalities and appearances

21 of UNPROFOR soldiers. You didn't know who they were, did you? One was

22 just like the next one. Correct?

23 A. Well, no. Some were younger, in blue clothes and UN insignia.

24 Only the grey-haired man; people said that was General Morillon.

25 Q. When? When did that -- did people say that, on the 6th of March?

Page 15474

1 A. Yes, on the 6th of March in front of the school in Konjevic Polje.

2 Q. And how long did you see the grey-haired man who was pointed out

3 to you as General Morillon for on the 6th of March?

4 A. We were there for several hours around the school when he arrived,

5 when UNPROFOR arrived.

6 Q. And there were hundreds, if not thousands, of people milling

7 around the school. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. When I say "thousands," Cerska is a rather large place and a

9 large number of refugees arrived there from Vlasenica municipality. When

10 one hamlet after another began to fall, people poured into Cerska, and all

11 these people then went to Konjevic Polje, so that there were thousands of

12 people. I can't tell you the exact number.

13 Q. Okay. Well, I'm -- okay. But I'm concentrating now on that day,

14 the 6th of March, when you say -- well, we could see in the clip. On that

15 particular day there were a number of men walking around in blue -- in

16 blue helmets or hats and soldiers' uniforms?

17 A. Yes, there were some people there around the school.

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. Where General Morillon was.

20 Q. Yeah. Okay. That was the first time you heard the name

21 "Morillon," on the 6th of March?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know how Mr. Oric came to be there on the 6th of March? Do

24 you have any information about that?

25 A. No, I have no information about that. It was by chance that he

Page 15475

1 was there in that crowd.

2 Q. How do you know that, that it was by chance? Can you tell us.

3 A. Because in that crowd, that large group of people who were there,

4 all gathered around the school, there were UNPROFOR men among us. I saw

5 Naser Oric there on that day, but I don't know when he arrived, what he

6 was doing because we were all focussing on saving our lives since we felt

7 that Konjevic Polje was about to fall. And we weren't relying on anyone.

8 But we understood that UNPROFOR was going to save us. We weren't

9 interested in Naser Oric.

10 Q. Okay. And you -- I think in one point in your evidence just a

11 moment ago you mentioned -- yes. You mentioned people gathered around the

12 school in Cerska. Was --

13 A. No, in Konjevic Polje.

14 Q. Sorry. My apologies, Konjevic Polje. Were you -- were the

15 UNPROFOR people inside the school when all the civilians and yourself

16 gathered around the school? Were they inside there? Is that the reason

17 why people gathered around the school?

18 A. They were in front of the school, not in the school, among the

19 crowd of people. And the neighbour I mentioned, Talovic, who was talking

20 with him, the man who had worked in Switzerland and so could speak French,

21 he was talking with General Morillon.

22 Q. Oh, I see. Okay. And how long did this sort of -- did this

23 conversation go on for, can you recall?

24 A. Maybe about an hour.

25 Q. And that was out the front of the school, not inside the school,

Page 15476

1 not inside the building?

2 A. Yes, in front of the school.

3 Q. And was General Morillon accompanied by other men in blue helmets

4 and hats?

5 A. Yes. There was a man who was interpreting on that day.

6 Q. Okay. And did General Morillon just talk to this fellow called

7 Talovic?

8 A. At that point in time, he spoke only with Talovic. That's what I

9 observed while the conversation was going on. After that, we left the

10 school.

11 Q. Okay. You say "we." Do you mean just yourself or all of the

12 refugees who were gathered there, all of the civilians?

13 A. All the civilians, all the civilians. After that, we went.

14 Q. All right. And was that because the men in blue hats and helmets

15 had gone or -- had left and were no longer a centre of attraction for all

16 the civilians?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. So General Morillon came along -- you tell me if this is

19 correct, okay? I want to understand you -- make sure I understand you

20 correctly. These soldiers with blue helmets and hats appeared in Konjevic

21 Polje on the 6th of March. A crowd quickly gathered. You were amongst

22 the crowd. General Morillon spoke to this fellow Talovic for about an

23 hour or so. They left, and the crowd dispersed. Is that a fair summary

24 of events?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15477

1 Q. Now --

2 A. After the conversation, UNPROFOR left Konjevic Polje.

3 Q. All right. So there's no doubt about it, is there, the only

4 significant -- I should say lengthy conversation that you observed - and

5 you were there for the whole time - was between Morillon and Talovic.

6 A. He didn't tell us anything while he was talking to General

7 Morillon.

8 Q. No, no, I --

9 A. However, after Morillon had left, he only told us to save our

10 families and our own skins.

11 Q. No, I understand that. I know that -- I'm not suggesting that you

12 know what the topic of conversation was. But the fact is, isn't it, that

13 the only significant, in the sense lengthy, conversation that any of the

14 soldiers, the blue helmeted soldiers had, was with this guy, this

15 gentleman Mr. Talovic. Right?

16 A. No, I didn't observe any other lengthy conversations, apart from

17 that one, which lasted about an hour.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. All right. Now, Mr. Talovic was a

19 local man, wasn't he?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From which village?

22 A. Talovici.

23 Q. Okay. And that -- I take it that's somewhere close to Konjevic

24 Polje and your village of Gusteri. Is that right?

25 A. It's a hamlet in Cerska. Konjevic Polje is another municipality.

Page 15478

1 Q. All right. And did Mr. Talovic hold any position at the time?

2 Was he, for example, a leader of an armed group or was he a head man in a

3 village? Did he enjoy -- did he have any special sort of status or

4 position at that time, March of 1993?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And you didn't see General Morillon or any of the other

7 soldiers talking to Mr. Oric, did you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I apologise if I've asked you this before, but I just want to ask

10 you again if -- did you speak to Mr. Oric on that day, the 6th of March,

11 1993, from what you can recall?

12 A. No. I was simply focussing on saving my own skin and on saving my

13 family.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. I'd like to have a look at the clip again,

15 if we could, if Your Honours please, with the yellow hood. I'm sorry I

16 can't remember the exhibit number.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you because I don't remember either.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: It was one of the very recent ones. I might have a

19 note of it here.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: P427. Is that correct? I think so.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: And in particular, of course, I'd like to see the

24 clip where we can see -- no, I think this is it, isn't it? Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it on Sanction as yet.

Page 15479

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Do Your Honours have a view?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we don't have anything on the screen as of yet.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I don't either.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, it's on now, but I would --

9 [Videotape played]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Defence?

11 [Videotape played]


13 Q. How far away were you from the group, would you say, when Morillon

14 seemed to be walking around like this?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record and before the witness answers, the

16 -- this segment from this video that was run -- that was played, started

17 at 27.46 to 31.15.9.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And there is -- this still that the witness is being

20 referred to now is precisely at 31.15.9.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks, Your Honour.

22 Q. So how far away would you have been, about?

23 A. I was some 10 to 15 metres away from this crowd of people, from

24 the group of UNPROFOR men we can see on this still.

25 Q. I don't know who shot this film or from where it was shot, but

Page 15480

1 would you agree with me that if you're down in that crowd it would be

2 pretty hard to see people clearly. Would you agree with that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. All right.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we play the film on --

6 JUDGE ESER: Could I have --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

8 JUDGE ESER: Just in order to save time, I would have a question.

9 When we are at this point, had you already realised that Naser

10 Oric was standing there, was he already standing there before Morillon

11 came or was he somehow following Morillon?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we were standing there and as

13 General Morillon arrived, I saw Naser up close. He was among the crowd of

14 people, and I'm not sure whether he had arrived with UNPROFOR or not. I'm

15 -- I don't know.

16 JUDGE ESER: My question is only partly answered so far. Now,

17 when you realised Naser Oric, was he already standing at this point where

18 we see him now before Morillon came, or was he somehow following this

19 group of people, the group of Morillon?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, Your Honour, I was part

21 of the crowd when the APC arrived. I don't know whether he was following

22 them or not, but all of a sudden, as the UNPROFOR APC was moving forward

23 through the crowd, in -- it was there that Naser Oric, wearing a yellow

24 hood, appeared in front of the municipality building. I cannot tell you

25 whether he arrived at that particular point in time or later. I don't

Page 15481

1 know.

2 JUDGE ESER: So just to maybe have a clear -- did I -- do I

3 understand you correctly, you had not been aware of Naser Oric being there

4 before Morillon came? Is that a correct assumption of mine?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

8 Mr. Di Fazio.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Go back a bit, back to the scene with the yellow

11 hood. Yeah, play it.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. For a brief moment - it's only brief - I suggest that the

15 video-clip shows Mr. Oric sticking pretty close to that group of people

16 with the blue helmets and hats. Did you see any such thing on the day,

17 see Mr. Oric pretty close to them for periods of time?

18 A. Yes, he was there close by, some 10 metres, 10 to 15 metres right

19 in front of me, close to the UNPROFOR group.

20 Q. Yes, I --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Di Fazio --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness is being referred to the

24 -- another portion of the tape, running from 31.15.9 to 31.52.4.


Page 15482

1 Q. I understand what you've said, Mr. Guster. What I'm suggesting is

2 that you can see from the -- from the clip that Mr. Oric - albeit for a

3 short period of time - appears to be shadowing or following closely the

4 group. Now, I know it's a long time ago and you may not be able to tell

5 us, but thinking back, did you have any impression of Mr. Oric

6 accompanying or shadowing the group of men with blue hats or helmets?

7 A. Believe me, I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. That's probably a hard aspect, and I understand. How far

9 -- about how far is Konjevic Polje from Srebrenica?

10 A. I don't know the exact amount of kilometres. We went across the

11 woods there.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I was with my family with a crowd of people trying to reach

14 Srebrenica. We were walking the entire night. It was only at dawn that

15 we reached Srebrenica. We went across a hilly area, muddy area.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. It was that difficult that by the time my children reached

18 Srebrenica, they were already barefoot.

19 Q. It's a walk of many hours, would you agree, many hours?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And a dangerous walk, too. In March of 1993, it wasn't just

22 simply a question of striding off down the road, was it? It was dangerous

23 to move around.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you --

Page 15483

1 A. The Serbs shelled the group of people on the move from Konjevic

2 Polje to Srebrenica that I was part of. People were getting killed.

3 Q. Bearing that in mind, weren't you surprised to see Mr. Oric there?

4 A. I don't know -- well, I was surprised to see him. He was probably

5 there escorting UNPROFOR. I saw him among the crowd of people and I did

6 not give it any further thought. I was focussed on saving my own skin,

7 that of my family, as were all the other people. I wasn't interested in

8 Naser Oric, or anyone else for that matter. I wasn't even interested in

9 my brother. I was focussed on saving my wife and my children.

10 Q. Okay. I understand that, but just one thing. Could you tell the

11 Trial Chamber why you say - what is it that causes you to say - that he

12 was: "Probably escorting UNPROFOR"? Now, why would you have made that

13 comment, do you think?

14 A. I don't know whether he was escorting them. I did not see him

15 escorting or not. He was there in the crowd, close to the people we can

16 see in the video, and I saw him there for about an hour.

17 Q. Yeah. I -- I understand that, and I hear you clearly. But you

18 said: "He was probably escorting UNPROFOR." Now, you must have some

19 reason for having said that. I -- I just heard you a moment ago, and what

20 I'd like to know is: What possible reason would you have for -- for

21 saying that "He was probably escorting UNPROFOR"? Indeed, what makes you

22 think that it was even a remote possibility that he was escorting


24 A. I mentioned that because he was close to General Morillon's group.

25 That was why I said that, because I thought that perhaps he was escorting

Page 15484

1 UNPROFOR from Konjevic Polje to Srebrenica. But I only saw him there at

2 that spot, where there were many people --

3 Q. All right. Okay.

4 A. -- that flocked to the area around the school.

5 Q. Can you tell us this, and I'll leave this point after this. Do

6 you say that he was -- when you say that "He was probably escorting

7 UNPROFOR," was that based on what you saw back then, in March of 1993, or

8 is it based on something else? Is it your memory from March, the 6th of

9 March, 1993, that makes you think that might be a possibility, that he was

10 escorting, Mr. Oric?

11 A. Not at the time, on the 6th of March, 1993. On that date I said

12 that I was only concerned with saving my children. I wasn't taking

13 interest in anyone.

14 Q. All right. Okay. Well, let's move to events in Srebrenica. You

15 have described the terrible journey that you had into Srebrenica and of

16 the -- and the events in March that you -- that you saw. You said that

17 you reported to the municipality at one stage to help with the evacuation

18 of the wounded. Do you remember that?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness did not say

21 to help with the evacuation of the wounded, but rather that he be

22 evacuated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recall the point when I

24 reported to the municipality to be evacuated as part of the evacuation of

25 the wounded.

Page 15485

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Do you agree, Mr. --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I have just got my note here, I don't have the

3 transcript. I'm sure that what Madam Vidovic says is right.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said

5 "applied to the municipality" rather than "reported to the municipality."


7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. Had your wife and children managed to make it out by that stage?

9 A. Yes. On the 19th of March, 1993, as I said, a convoy arrived with

10 food that we unloaded. I was among the ones unloading it.

11 Q. Okay. I've got --

12 A. And then the next morning I put my wife and children on the truck.

13 Q. All right. Thanks a lot. So you went off to the municipality

14 after they were evacuated. To whom did you put in this application to be

15 evacuated? Who was there at the municipality to -- to hear your

16 application, to entertain it?

17 A. I don't know the persons there. They all wore civilian clothes.

18 I provided them with my first and last names, to be placed on the list for

19 evacuation.

20 Q. So you don't know what the name of this -- who these people were

21 or if they had a name? For example, an agency name or some other name

22 identifying them as a body of people? You don't know who they were?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And what did they tell you about the -- about the prospects of

25 evacuation?

Page 15486

1 A. They put me on the list, and I expected to be evacuated any day.

2 And as I've already said, I was there, waiting to be evacuated, every day.

3 Ever since my family had gone on the 19th of March, 1993, I had been

4 waiting in front of the municipality.

5 Q. That's what I want to know about. Did you go and wait in front of

6 the municipality as a result of something that was said to you by those

7 people to whom you -- to whom you applied? Was it them who gave you the

8 idea?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, let me interrupt you for a moment,

10 because looking back at -- I don't know whether this was a question of

11 interpretation or not, but if it was, it needs to be corrected. Page 21,

12 lines 4 and -- that start with line 2. The question was: "Did you stay

13 behind in Srebrenica after you sent your wife away, and what did you do?"

14 And the answer was: "Yes, I stayed behind in Srebrenica. I

15 reported to the municipality to help with the evacuation of the wounded.

16 On the 19th of March, 1993, a convoy carrying food came. On that same

17 day, I went out."

18 So if this is not what he said, it needs to be corrected. If this

19 is what he said, then obviously the whole --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what my note says.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I was following in English and not -- not

22 in Serbo-Croat, so I don't know.

23 Let the witness say what, what --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Shall I ask the --

Page 15487

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let me try to -- did you hear me reading from

2 what you said, according to the transcript, earlier on?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I -- I've understood the

4 discussion well. On the 19th of March, 1993, when I got my wife and

5 children and my mother-in-law onto an UNPROFOR truck, I applied to the

6 municipality for the evacuation of the wounded. Therefore, I applied in

7 the municipality, and then the following two or three days I was standing,

8 together with people from Cerska and Konjevic Polje, from early morning

9 hours all the way till the evening in front of the municipality waiting.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That clears it all. So I think we can

11 proceed from where we -- we had left it, but it was annoying me as it was,

12 so -- your question -- last question was the following, Mr. Di Fazio:

13 "That's what I want to know about. Did you go and wait in front

14 of the municipality as a result of something that was said to you by those

15 people to whom you -- to whom you had applied? Was it them who gave you

16 the idea?" Now this is the question that you need to answer.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't those people who gave

18 us the idea, but rather the group of the wounded who were there, and I was

19 among us, we were told that there was an ongoing evacuation of the wounded

20 and then one -- that one ought to apply to the municipality. That is why

21 I applied and then waited all day long in front of the municipality,

22 because it was the municipality that provided us with information.


24 Q. Okay. But you had an expectation or an idea in your head that you

25 could maybe get out, get evacuated, as a result of your wound. Correct?

Page 15488

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Right. Did they ask you to -- the people at the municipality, did

3 they look at your wound or ask you to go to the hospital to try and make

4 some assessment as to how bad it was?

5 A. No. Nobody inspected or examined the wound. The wounded were

6 being evacuated, so that nobody examined them.

7 Q. All right. So there were wounded people being taken out - that's

8 for sure, correct? - at the time you applied to the municipality? There's

9 no doubt in your mind that wounded people were being evacuated?

10 A. I don't know. Those of us wounded who were standing there, I --

11 that's what I can talk about. I don't know about any other groups of

12 wounded being evacuated or not.

13 Q. Okay. Look, at the time you went off to the municipality to make

14 this application or try and -- to try and get out, to try and be

15 evacuated, did you actually know of -- had you seen, did you actually know

16 of, wounded people being evacuated? Was it something that you knew for

17 certain was happening?

18 A. No, I didn't know that they were evacuated. I knew only that an

19 evacuation of the wounded was to take place. That was why I applied in

20 the municipality.

21 Q. Right. And that information you got from fellow refugees; is that

22 correct? Or you got it from someone in the municipality?

23 A. Yes. As I said, we got the information from the municipality. I

24 said that we were standing in front of the municipality in order to be

25 given information concerning the evacuation of the wounded.

Page 15489

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time it's convenient for you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: This might be a time. Your Honours, I've got a

3 little bit more to go with Mr. Guster --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but we must finish with him today.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah, I understand that. I understand Your

6 Honour's concerns about that. I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is

7 I'm going to occupy, I would think, a substantial proportion of the

8 remaining -- I say that for the purposes of the Defence. I know that

9 they've got matters to organise. Sorry about that, but I just --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I just need a chunk --

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I say, if Mr. Di Fazio --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, in the meantime, the witness can be

14 escorted out of the courtroom, thank you. We'll have a 30-minute break,

15 Mr. Guster.

16 MR. JONES: Should I start or wait for the witness to --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, unless it's something that --

18 MR. JONES: No. It's simply that obviously time needs to be left

19 for re-examination to finish with the witness, but we would, if at all

20 possible, like, even if it's only a question of 10 or 15 minutes with

21 Professor Bilic, to start with him, and it's partly --

22 [The witness stands down]

23 MR. JONES: -- because he's been in The Hague all week.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Really? Already?

25 MR. JONES: Yes, and I think psychologically, if not for anything

Page 15490

1 else, just to at least start with his testimony, for his benefit, before

2 the weekend, even if it's only a question of ten minutes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So you need ten minutes.

4 How much time do you require to make your submissions on the

5 expert?

6 MR. WUBBEN: I guess it will be less than ten minutes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Less than ten minutes, so let's make it 20 in all.

8 Out of 45 minutes, how much time do you think you require?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I would have thought a good part of that, if Your

10 Honours please. It's the last -- 21st of March, and we all know what the

11 witness is going to -- and there's quite a bit --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But listen, I'm not trying to stop you, Mr. Di

13 Fazio. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm trying, as usual, to try and

14 accommodate everyone.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now it is that there's someone else sitting, and

17 especially when it's an afternoon sitting coming up for someone else, it

18 means starting late and finishing later.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Half an hour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You need half an hour?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Minimum of half an hour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thirty minutes.

23 What we can do is -- I don't know. I don't know. I mean, let's

24 -- let's play it by the ear. I think at this stage I would prefer to --

25 could I also suggest you think about it a little bit between now and the

Page 15491

1 end of the break. We could call Professor Bilic and I try to explain to

2 him our predicament and whatever and promise him that we will be doing our

3 utmost to get things moving.

4 MR. JONES: Perhaps at the end of the session, if we don't manage

5 to get him on, to explain that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we'll dedicate five, seven minutes to do

7 that. Let's play it by the ear and see how it works. Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get moving. The accused.

11 Yes, I see Mr. Wubben standing. What's the problem?

12 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I requested Ms. Patricia Sellers to make

13 a short oral submission regarding the planning and organisation of the

14 rebuttal to update your Trial Chamber. It will be very limited; it's a

15 matter of minutes. We already updated the Defence team of it. And at the

16 same time, Your Honour, I will be happy -- with a view to finalising the

17 witness, I will be more than happy to do my submissions regarding the

18 Trial Chamber expert on Monday morning at the start.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 Yes, Ms. Sellers, how long do you expect to take?

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it's possible less than a minute. Your

22 Honour Brydensholt should have a little more faith in me.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm here to make an oral submission

25 under Rule 127 to ask for a variance in the time of the Prosecution

Page 15492

1 following its filing its motion, to request for it to be rescinded --

2 rebuttal evidence under Rule 85(3). The reason I'm asking for this

3 variance of time is that we have understood between your request and today

4 that there will be some other measures that we must take prior to us being

5 able to provide the names of one or two of the persons, and it would

6 involve going through Rule 70 procedures.

7 The other is that I understand it's a holiday in some parts of

8 former Yugoslavia where we are asking for information to be sent. We

9 discussed this with --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What holiday? Now? Today?

11 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What holiday is there in Yugoslavia?

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I am unaware of what holiday it is. We

14 have discussed this with Defence counsel, and what the Prosecution would

15 like to propose is that we are more than willing and feel it's our

16 obligation to write a letter to Defence counsel this afternoon disclosing

17 the names, any statements of witnesses that we intend to call whose names

18 we can reveal at this time. We will do full descriptions. We do not want

19 in any way to have the Defence in a position of not knowing information

20 that they could start working on. My understanding was that learned

21 counsel has agreed with this approach and that we will file the motion as

22 required as soon as possible, and I might suggest it will be filed by noon

23 on Tuesday, if not sooner.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Agreed. All right, that's granted.

25 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll excuse myself from the

Page 15493

1 court.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time -- you think you need about ten

5 minutes for re-examination you said, Ms. Vidovic?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So allow about 15 minutes, Mr. Di Fazio. Go ahead.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

10 Q. How do you know these events took place on the 21st of March

11 instead of the 20th or the 22nd or the 23rd or, indeed, any other date in

12 March?

13 A. As I mentioned, this man from Konjevic Polje who had a watch on

14 also had dates on his watch, and he showed us the date.

15 Q. Yes. So other than the fact that this -- a man was wearing a

16 watch and showed you the time, 10.30, you've testified to that earlier

17 this morning, and the date, you wouldn't have had any idea what day it

18 was, would you? Let me rephrase that. You wouldn't have now any idea

19 what day it was.

20 A. That's right. I wouldn't know what day it was, but I do know it

21 was the 21st of March, 1993.

22 Q. Yes. Okay. But the only reason you know that, according to what

23 you say, is that the man who was there with you showed you his watch or,

24 alternatively, told you from looking at his watch that it's 10.30 a.m.,

25 the 21st of March. Right?

Page 15494

1 A. Yes. As I said, when the APC arrived, the UNPROFOR APC, the man

2 looked at his watch. I was standing next to him and he showed it to me.

3 It said 10.30 and there was the date there as well, the 21st of March.

4 This was all happening in March.

5 Q. Right. And do you know why he showed you his watch? Can you

6 remember? I mean, it's a remarkable detail to remember some ten years

7 later, isn't it?

8 A. He showed me to show at what time the APC had arrived so that we

9 could make plans concerning our evacuation to Tuzla.

10 Q. Uh-huh. And how was it going to assist you to know that it was

11 10.30 a.m. to make plans, to get evacuated to Tuzla? How was that going

12 to help you?

13 A. Because in the morning, at around 7.00 a.m., I was in front of the

14 municipality. We were standing around talking, wondering how we could get

15 evacuated to Tuzla. And when we noticed the arrival of the UNPROFOR APC,

16 we were happy that the UNPROFOR vehicle had arrived because we thought it

17 had come to get us. That's why he showed us the watch, so that we would

18 know what time the vehicle had arrived.

19 Q. Yes. Okay. And but for the information contained on the watch,

20 that it was the 21st of March, but for that you wouldn't be able to tell

21 us what day these events happened on. Correct? Or perhaps what date,

22 date, these events happened on.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember anything else about the man with the watch? Do

25 you know his name?

Page 15495

1 A. The man next to whom I was standing was a man from Konjevic Polje.

2 His nickname was Burek.

3 Q. And can I ask you this: Where were your possessions that -- ready

4 to take with you to Tuzla? Where were they? Did you have a backpack or a

5 little bag, a little satchel, anything at all, a box?

6 A. You saw me on that video with my hands in my pockets, wearing only

7 a shirt. I had nothing else.

8 Q. All right. Okay. I understand that times were extremely

9 difficult for you, but you had taken nothing with you, nothing at all? No

10 possessions other than the clothes you had with you. Not even a walking

11 stick to help you with your -- as a result of your wound? What you stood

12 in is what you were going to go to -- is what you were going to travel to

13 Tuzla in?

14 A. Yes, with empty hands.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I had a wounded leg.

17 Q. Yes. And what about the other men there, did they have their

18 possessions, any possessions with them, even a bundle of something?

19 A. No. The people from Konjevic Polje, they, too, were empty-handed,

20 but they were better dressed than I was, in civilian clothes, because

21 whereas we arrived in Konjevic Polje as refugees from Cerska, they had had

22 time to get dressed as it was winter.

23 Q. Did you continue to go to the municipality on the 22nd and the

24 23rd, and on the 24th and the 25th of March, to wait outside the front,

25 waiting to be evacuated?

Page 15496

1 A. No, because we had no information about any evacuation to be

2 carried out. So I stayed inside the building. Sometimes when I got bored

3 I would go out in front of the building I was staying in. This was a flat

4 which had no windows and no doors.

5 Q. But why? Why didn't you go there again the next day to wait for

6 the APC to take you to Tuzla? Or indeed the 23rd, the 24th?

7 A. Because we hadn't received any information that there would be

8 more evacuations.

9 Q. Well, did you make inquiries of the municipality after the events

10 that you've talked about on the 21st? Did you -- let me rephrase that

11 question. You've told us about what you saw on the 21st, and eventually

12 the man who was not well was put in the APC and driven off. Following

13 that, did you go back into the municipality and make any inquiries or try

14 to make any inquiries as to when it might be your turn to be evacuated?

15 A. As I've already said, starting from the early morning, I stood

16 waiting in front of the municipality, together with those other men,

17 waiting to be evacuated. We stood there from early morning until late at

18 night, waiting for the UNPROFOR vehicle to come back.

19 Q. And it didn't come back. Is that right? You can answer that with

20 a yes or no. It didn't come back?

21 A. No, it didn't.

22 Q. Well, what I want to know is: Why didn't you take up your

23 position the next morning, go back there and wait for the APC to come

24 back?

25 A. As I said, I didn't have any things. I went out in front of the

Page 15497

1 building I was staying in, after the APC left, to see whether any APCs

2 would pass along the street, but this did not happen.

3 Q. Yes, I -- that might have happened. But with respect, I don't

4 think you're answering my question. You went there, you say, on the 21st

5 and you've told us about what you saw. You went there because you had

6 hopes or expectations of evacuation through the UN. Now, my question is:

7 You didn't get lucky on the 21st, according to what you said, so why not

8 try again the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that?

9 A. I said that I was there on the 21st, and maybe -- or certainly

10 after the 21st for five or six days, I stood there in front of the

11 municipality, but I received no information about any transport of

12 wounded.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's answered your question.

14 Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Yes, sorry, Your Honour. It's really in the spirit of

16 helping. The witness has referred to standing in front of his building --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Municipality --

18 MR. JONES: The building where he was staying, and it might be

19 useful just to find out where that is. It might throw some light on this.


21 Which building are you referring to? You said that you were

22 standing in front of your building to see whether any APCs would be

23 passing. Which building was this? Where were you staying at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a building to the left of

25 the municipal building. It was a department store. I don't know the name

Page 15498

1 of the building.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We know about it. Okay. Thank you.

3 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.


5 Q. At the time, March of 1993, were there many cars? I don't mean

6 trucks or tractors, vans, motorcycles; I'm talking about cars, saloon

7 cars. Were there many cars driving around Srebrenica?

8 A. As I have told you, at that time while I was there I saw only one

9 car, which was parked in front of the municipality from the early morning.

10 It was parked there the whole morning in front of the municipality. I saw

11 no other cars.

12 Q. Is that an unusual event, then, to see a car in Srebrenica in

13 March of 1993?

14 A. I don't know whether cars were destroyed by the Serbs, but this

15 car was there from the early morning. As I told you, from the early

16 morning that car was there. And as my leg hurt, I leaned against it. So

17 it was a help to me.

18 Q. And you got, as you speak now, telling us about these events in

19 court here, you've got a clear memory, haven't you - is that what you're

20 saying? - of leaning against the car, looking inside for food? You can

21 remember it in your mind's eye?

22 A. Yes. I was hungry, standing there from the early morning without

23 eating. I looked in through the windows of the car to see if there was

24 any food inside it.

25 Q. Did you see Mr. Oric the day before the 21st or the day after?

Page 15499

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about within a period of about five days either side of the

3 21st; did you see him then?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Apart from the 6th of March, 1993, when he was walking around with

6 a yellow hood, did you see him in March of 1993?

7 A. What I said, the 6th of March, when he was in Konjevic Polje,

8 that's when I saw him. I didn't see him again while I was in Srebrenica.

9 When I went to Srebrenica, I no longer had any occasions to see him.

10 Q. Right. And how often had you seen General Morillon from the 6th

11 of March, following that? Had you seen him at all?

12 A. No, I didn't see him except for that time in Konjevic Polje. That

13 was when I saw him.

14 Q. From the crowd?

15 A. The people I saw, they were very young, and I would still

16 recognise General Morillon if I saw him today, because he was older than

17 all the other men who were with him.

18 Q. Right. So the fact is that you laid eyes on General Morillon once

19 from your position in a crowd in Konjevic Polje on the 6th of March, 1993,

20 and you have never seen him since?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you have any dealings with Mr. Oric at all in 1993 or 1994,

23 1995?

24 A. No. As I said, I left Srebrenica in July 1993.

25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the number of men who were present

Page 15500

1 on the 21st of March who had blue helmets on, blue helmets and/or blue

2 hats?

3 A. I don't know the precise number, but I do know that several people

4 got out - four, perhaps - and two with blue helmets on accompanied the man

5 in civilian clothes who had one arm missing.

6 Q. Thanks. But the fact of the matter is you can't tell us precisely

7 how many men were there with blue on their head, either in the form of a

8 helmet or a hat; and that's correct, right?

9 A. I didn't count them. What I was interested in was how to get

10 inside the APC. I didn't care how many of them there were. I tried to

11 get in, and then one UNPROFOR man pulled me out again.

12 Q. Right. And did the -- a crowd of men who -- sorry, not just men

13 but I suppose men and women who were there assembled with you, waiting to

14 be evacuated to Tuzla, also try to get into the APC?

15 A. No, they didn't.

16 Q. Right. So you're the only one who actually made an attempt to get

17 into it, even though they're all waiting there along with you for exactly

18 the same purpose?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

23 Re-examination.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have only two to

25 three brief questions.

Page 15501

1 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

2 Q. Mr. Guster, you told us you saw General Morillon at Konjevic

3 Polje. You also told us that you expected the help of the international

4 community. Was General Morillon to you and the people of Konjevic Polje

5 an important, a very important, person?

6 A. Yes. He was important to us because we were told that they were

7 going to save us.

8 Q. Very well. Did you take a good look at him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. For how long were you observing him, approximately?

11 A. For about an hour. For as long as he was talking to my neighbour

12 Talovic.

13 Q. Is there any possibility that Morillon or any other person,

14 grey-haired person, was present there when you were observing the sick

15 person, as you put it, being put on a stretcher and into the APC?

16 A. That would not be true. I was there observing the entire event.

17 Q. I wish to ask you the following: Before -- how -- how many days

18 or how much time before this particular event did your wife leave the

19 area?

20 A. She left the area on the 9th of March, 1993.

21 Q. Is that a date that you -- that is impressed in your memory?

22 A. Yes. It is still impressed in my memory because that's the date

23 when I saved my wife and children.

24 Q. Were you very near the UNPROFOR men who got out of the UNPROFOR

25 APC?

Page 15502

1 A. The UNPROFOR soldiers passed by me.

2 Q. Were you able to observe them closely?

3 A. Yes. They were very young men who were there.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Another intervention for the record.

5 The witness stated that his wife left Srebrenica on the 19th rather than

6 on the 9th, as was entered in the record.

7 Q. Witness, can you repeat the date when your wife left Srebrenica.

8 A. Yes, on the 19th of March, 1993.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

12 Judge Brydensholt.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Do you remember what did you exactly do when

15 your wife and children left on the 19th? What did you do the same day?

16 A. From -- or rather, early in the morning I went over to the

17 municipality building and applied to be placed on the list with a view to

18 being evacuated. Therefore, after the evacuation of my family, I went

19 over to apply for evacuation.

20 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Could you -- do you remember where did you

21 apply? Was it on -- in an office on the ground floor or on the first

22 floor? How was it, if you remember?

23 A. I don't remember. I was standing at the door to one office where

24 there were people gathered around a desk, and it was there that I got --

25 applied for the list and I wanted my name to be placed.

Page 15503

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I wish to correct the record. The

2 witness said "at the entrance," meaning at the entranceway to the

3 building, and it wasn't entered into the record. Perhaps the witness

4 should clarify.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 Yes, I think you would agree with what Ms. Vidovic has just

7 stated?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further questions?

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Were you aware that there was a hospital in

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. No, I wasn't.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Judge Brydensholt.

14 Judge Eser.

15 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Guster, you have told us that you saw Naser Oric

16 the first time on a bus to Belgrade. Did you already talk with him?

17 A. No. I didn't talk. Rather, as I said, in 1988 and 1989 we were

18 close to each other but I did not have occasion to talk to him. We were

19 on the bus that all of us were travelling on. There were 50 or 54 of us

20 on the bus. There were people from Cerska, Konjevic Polje. For the most

21 part, the people hailed from Podrinje. That's what I -- what I mean when

22 I say "Cerska."

23 JUDGE ESER: If they have been close to each other, then we may

24 conclude, if you are close to somebody, that you also have been in touch

25 with each other by talking with each other. Is that correct, or would you

Page 15504

1 say you saw him but you never had spoken with him?

2 A. I said that my friends from Cerska who knew Naser Oric introduced

3 me to him. So it was my friends who introduced me to him. I did not have

4 coffee with Naser Oric. I may have been two or three tables away from

5 where he was seated when we were -- when we stopped on our way, on our

6 journey to Belgrade in a restaurant.

7 JUDGE ESER: And how often did it happen - approximately if you

8 don't know the exact number - did you be on the same bus? Two times,

9 three times, four times, ten times, or what do you think, approximately?

10 A. It was often. Every weekend. From Monday to Friday one worked in

11 Belgrade, and then at the weekend -- or rather, on Friday we travelled

12 from Belgrade to Podrinje. Approximately, we -- our paths crossed some

13 ten times on the bus, but we were not seated at the same table.

14 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now, coming to the visit of General Morillon

15 in Konjevic Polje, you told us that Morillon talked with your neighbour; I

16 think his name was Talovic. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ESER: And the talk between Morillon and Talovic, did it

19 last for an hour? This talk between Talovic and Morillon, did it last for

20 an hour?

21 A. Yes, I think it lasted about an hour. I'm not sure -- I don't

22 know exactly how long, but the talk between my neighbour Talovic and

23 General Morillon took about an hour. That was the period during which

24 they talked. I don't know what they talked about. I don't speak any

25 foreign language and I was not able to understand.

Page 15505

1 JUDGE ESER: No. I assume that Morillon was a busy man. He had a

2 lot of things to do, and so it's a little bit surprising that he would

3 take time to have a chat with your neighbour in French for almost an hour

4 and people -- other people are standing around and didn't understand

5 anything because they were talking in French.

6 A. Your Honour, that wasn't a chat. This was a conversation about

7 how to save lives which we witnessed, and therefore it was about how to

8 save the lives of those around the school. As I said, later on we were

9 told that we were supposed to save our own skins.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, I saw you standing up at some point.

11 MR. JONES: I wasn't sure if it was a comment or a question for

12 the witness, but the witness has answered as if it were a question, so ...


14 JUDGE ESER: Now, was Mr. Talovic somehow -- you say mandated by

15 you to have this talk with Morillon or was it more just by chance that

16 Morillon and Talovic had this conversation on the problems with each

17 other?

18 A. It was by coincidence, as Morillon was passing through, that my

19 neighbour Talovic engaged in conversation with him. It actually happened

20 that my neighbour Talovic started speaking French to him, and then General

21 Morillon stopped to talk to him. I don't know what they talked about.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's always a good bait with the French.

23 JUDGE ESER: But did Mr. Talovic report or tell the people around

24 what they had talked about? Did Talovic give you any information on the

25 contents of the talk he had with Morillon?

Page 15506

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Now, let's turn for a minute to the car in

3 Srebrenica we have been talking about. You arrived there on the morning

4 of the 20th of March, and the car was already there. Is that correct?

5 A. On the 21st of March, as I've said, at about 7.00 in the morning

6 the car was already parked in front of the municipal building and remained

7 parked there throughout the morning.

8 JUDGE ESER: And was it already -- was the car already parked

9 there the day before?

10 A. I wasn't able to observe that. I know that it was parked there on

11 that morning.

12 JUDGE ESER: And how long -- you say the -- it was parked there in

13 the -- the whole morning. Do you remember approximately the time when the

14 car was driven and moved away from this place?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: How long did it --

16 JUDGE ESER: How long did it --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: How long did it stay there, starting from the 21st

18 in the morning?

19 A. We were there from early in the morning, as I said, and the car

20 was there parked. We stayed there till the evening, expecting that the

21 UNPROFOR vehicle was to return to evacuate us. And throughout this time,

22 the car remained parked in front of the building.

23 JUDGE ESER: Also from the morning but until the evening. You

24 have told us that it was -- that it was parked there until the morning,

25 during the morning. Now, was it more than the morning? Was it also

Page 15507

1 parked there until the afternoon or the evening?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: I don't recall where the witness said that it was

4 parked until the morning. If we could be referred to that part of the

5 transcript.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't recall that either, actually.

7 JUDGE ESER: He mentioned several times that it was parked during

8 the morning --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: In the morning, yeah, but not until the morning.

10 JUDGE ESER: Yeah. Now, my question is: Did you realise when the

11 car was moved away?

12 A. I don't remember when the car was moved away. I don't remember.

13 As we were waiting, it became dark and we dispersed. I don't know when

14 the car was removed. I know that, as we were going away, it stayed

15 behind, parked there.

16 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

18 I thank you, Mr. Guster. We've finished here. You may leave the

19 courtroom now. You will be escorted. I wish to thank you, on behalf of

20 everyone here, for having come over to give testimony. And on behalf of

21 everyone, I wish you a safe journey home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If -- now -- if someone could help -- please. Let's

24 move because I don't want to keep the staff much longer.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 15508

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Professor Bilic, if someone could help her bring in

2 Professor Bilic straight away, straight in. Rather than wait for her,

3 take her -- yeah, but he needs to be escorted in. Okay.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please take a seat, Mr. -- Professor Bilic, and good

6 afternoon to you --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and welcome to this Tribunal.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, too.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately, and I'm sure that as a professional

11 man you will understand that things didn't go exactly, precisely as we had

12 planned this morning. We had planned to start with your testimony. I

13 know that you have been here for practically a week already, so you have

14 all our sympathy, and also please accept our apologies for having kept you

15 waiting. We will start with you straight away Monday morning, after we

16 thrash a procedural matter that we have. And we still believe that we

17 will be able to finish with your testimony as planned, by the 26th of the

18 month. So before I ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom

19 again, please do accept our apologies and try to understand that we had

20 another witness and we did our best to try and send him home today, and we

21 were also trying our best to start with you as well, but we did not

22 succeed. Thank you. And I hope you will have a nice weekend here in The

23 Hague. The weather is going to be good.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept your justified

25 reasons, and I hope that things will go the way you say they will.

Page 15509

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Professor. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Once more, because yesterday we were all hurried up

4 and I didn't really thank everyone in a proper, decent manner, as I

5 usually try to do. Please, I can't express enough my gratitude to all of

6 you for having stayed over with us more than ten minutes yesterday and

7 practically five minutes later than scheduled today. I do appreciate very

8 much. Yesterday you were instrumental in making it possible for that

9 witness to return home rather than stay here. And today, again, you are

10 instrumental in giving me the opportunity to apologise and explain matters

11 to Professor Bilic. I thank you so much, and I wish this part of the

12 transcript be communicated to the relevant sections in the Tribunal for

13 their acknowledgment. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

17 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.