1 Tuesday, 28 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case for today.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Could we have appearances for today, please, starting with the
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. Dan Saxon for the
15 Prosecution with my colleagues Salvatore Cannata, Carolyn Edgerton, and
16 Carmela Javier.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to everyone in the courtroom. On behalf of the Defence, today in
21 the courtroom there is me, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and our case
22 manager Danijela Tasic, and our assistant, Milos Androvic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, Ms. Edgerton will call the witness this
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, are there any special arrangements
2 for this witness, or is she an ordinary witness?
3 MS. EDGERTON: This witness has protected measures from the last
4 proceeding she testified in, Your Honours. As per a notification the
5 Prosecution filed, she has facial distortion, and of course those
6 measures apply, and we'd ask that that be made the case for her testimony
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us then to go into closed session
9 before she walks in?
10 MS. EDGERTON: I think that would be appropriate, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
12 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have anybody in the gallery?
17 You may proceed.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Do you recall coming to testify in February 2007 before another
20 Trial Chamber of this Tribunal?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Now, to prepare for your testimony today, did my colleagues read
23 back to you the questions asked and the answers you gave during that
24 previous testimony?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that in your own language?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you understand everything that you heard?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you also have a chance to look at the copies of photographs
6 and documents and maps you referred to during that testimony?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did that also include a copy of a statement you gave to the
9 Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal in 1996?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, if I asked you all the same questions today in respect of
12 that evidence, would you give the same answers?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, Your Honours, may I move into
15 evidence, and I'll refer to the 65 ter numbers, the previous testimony
16 associated exhibits and statement of this witness from the
17 Dragomir Milosevic proceedings?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are the 65 ter numbers?
19 MS. EDGERTON: For the previous testimony, the 65 ter number is
20 09305; the associated exhibits are 09301, 02, and 03, all of which are
21 colour photographs; 09304, which is a map; and 05791, which is a
22 document; and finally, the ICTY statement from 23 February 1996, which is
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
25 All those documents are admitted into evidence. May they please
1 be given exhibit numbers.
2 THE REGISTRAR: 09305 will be Exhibit P115, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 09301 will be Exhibit P116; 09302 will be Exhibit
5 P117; 09303 will be Exhibit P118; 09304 will be Exhibit P119; 05791 will
6 be Exhibit P120; and finally, 09300 will be Exhibit P121, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honours, with your leave, I'll just read
10 a brief summary, and then I have a couple of clarifying questions for
11 this witness.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 This witness has been a resident of the area of Dobrinja since
15 1985 and was injured in the shelling of the Simon Bolivar school on
16 June 18, 1995
17 or electricity for about a month. Water pumps were improvised throughout
18 the area. Water was rationed when it was available. The witness's
19 husband often went out at night to collect water because of sniper
20 activity during the day.
21 On the morning of 18 June 1995
22 a pump located in an open area in the ruin of the Simon Bolivar school,
23 which had been destroyed by a fire from a shelling earlier in the war.
24 In order to reach the school, the witness had to cross a playground which
25 was generally unsafe due to sniping, which the witness believes
1 originated from the nearby Nedzarici neighbourhood controlled by the
2 Bosnian Serb army.
3 The witness was one of the first people in line for water. There
4 were approximately 50 to 70 people behind her. She was standing in a
5 door frame when the shell struck. Mrs. Sisic was injured in the heel and
6 upper area of her right leg. A total of seven people were killed as a
7 result of the impact, including two of her neighbours, while 11 or 12
8 people were injured.
9 And that concludes the summary, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Now, just as I'd indicated, a couple of clarifying
12 questions, the first actually relating to a map which appears in
13 everyone's map book as map number 8. And because the copy which is
14 uploaded in e-court is in black and white, I've had a colour copy
15 identical to the one prepared in your map books produced because I think
16 it's much easier for the witness to see.
17 Could I ask that this be shown to the witness, please. Yes, we
18 will need it on the ELMO.
19 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise generally what the map on the machine
20 beside you depicts? Do you know what that's a map of?
21 A. It's the map of the city of Sarajevo
22 Q. Now, just so that we can all orient ourselves, are you generally
23 able to indicate with a circle the area of the old town of Sarajevo
24 the city centre, let's say?
25 A. You mean one circle around both the centre and the old town?
1 Q. My apologies, and I'll be clear. Let's say the old town first.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you.
4 And could you put a number 1 inside that circle.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. Now, the city centre that I'd mentioned previously,
7 could you roughly indicate the general area of the city centre.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And you've drawn another circle around that. Could you put a 2
10 inside that circle, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. Now, could you generally indicate the area of
13 Dobrinja settlement, where you lived, also with another circle.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And could you put a 3 inside that circle, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Now, could you perhaps, having lived in Dobrinja for so long,
18 give us an indication how far the distance one would have had to travel
19 by road would be to get from Dobrinja to the old town?
20 A. It's about 10 to 15 kilometres' distance. In terms of time, it
21 would be 10, 15 minutes by car, or 15 to 20 minutes by car.
22 Q. Now, in order to travel by car, let's say, what's the most direct
23 route? Could you draw a line indicating the road you might take normally
24 to go from Dobrinja to Sarajevo
25 A. Everything is so small on this map, it's rather difficult.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there a map of which that kind of detail can be
2 shown, Madam Edgerton?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Had we done the e-court absolutely
5 correctly, we would have been able to zoom in. So what I think I'll do
6 is leave this now and ask that it be marked as an exhibit and go to an
7 electronic cut-out that I have of the map where the witness can see more
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
10 MS. EDGERTON: With that being said, could this paper copy of the
11 map be tendered, please, as the next exhibit.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is tendered into evidence. May it please
13 be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P122, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Now, and this might take a couple of seconds to
17 call up in e-court, could I ask for the cut-out of map 02719, and in
18 fact, Your Honour, it is a cut-out, as I've just said, of the map we've
19 just seen.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. EDGERTON: I'm told it's on e-court as some kind of an
22 attachment to the larger document, Madam Registrar. You've seen it?
23 Thank you.
24 I'm sorry, that's the original document. I'm looking for the
25 cut-out of the larger document that's there as an attachment.
1 I think Mrs. Javier is going to re-release them. My apologies,
2 Your Honour.
3 Great. There we have it.
4 Q. Mrs. Sisic, do you see on the screen in front of you a map that
5 has some more detail than the one you previously looked at?
6 A. Yes. You can see more of this part of town where Dobrinja is,
7 but I don't see the centre, and I don't see the old town. In fact, I
8 don't see the old town.
9 Q. That's quite okay. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions
10 based on this map. Are you able to indicate on this map the approximate
11 location of where you lived on the 18th of June, 1995? And you'll
12 remember from your previous testimony, you'll need to do that with the
13 pen my colleague will hand you.
14 A. Shall I put a circle around it?
15 Q. A small one, please, and you can mark it with the number 1.
16 A. I crossed the school ...
17 Q. So you've marked the Simon Bolivar school, I take it, or your
18 apartment building? I'm not sure I understood.
19 A. My building where I lived, I touched upon the school but the
20 school is not within the circle.
21 Q. All right. So I take it from what you've said that the school is
22 immediately proximate to your building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, are you able to indicate with an arrow what the main road
25 would be connecting Dobrinja to the city centre, if you were going to
1 travel by car?
2 A. I don't know how to do that. Maybe this road here. It's kind of
3 difficult, but I'll try. It's this road. Is this okay?
4 Q. So the point of the arrow is, as I understand you, leaving from
5 Dobrinja towards the city centre.
6 A. Sorry, I made a mistake. If you allow me, this road was used
7 only very little. What we did is went through the settlement. I can't
8 see the road clearly because I'm --
9 Q. Sorry.
10 A. -- we used a shortcut.
11 Q. Madam Witness, I'd like to know - my question was and I'll try
12 and explain it a little more clearly - I'd like to know if you can mark
13 the main road that you would have used before the war to travel by car
14 from Dobrinja to the Sarajevo
15 you've indicated we made a mistake, erase the line that you've made.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: How does she erase it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the main road.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: If she shifts the map, she can erase it, but she
19 will erase also the circle around her house.
20 MS. EDGERTON: I always understand that my colleague should be
21 able to take it away.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay. That's -- we learn all the time.
23 MS. EDGERTON: It's a good day when that happens to each of us.
24 Q. Would you like me to repeat my question, ma'am?
25 A. I understood your question.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I had just made an arrow, and it is indeed the road that we used
3 before the war, and of course we use it today, but it was little used
4 during the war. We went in between buildings, across parking lots --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, the question was: Mark the road that you
6 used before the war. That was the question. Mark that road.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Now, the marking that you placed on the map that looks like an
11 upside-down V is the main traffic road you used before the war and today
12 based on what you said to get from Dobrinja to the city centre; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, keeping this map on the screen, I have a couple of questions
16 related to your previous testimony. At pages 2832 and 2862 of the
17 transcript of your previous testimony, you referred to the area of
18 Nedzarici as being the source of sniper fire which would hit the
19 playground area in front of your apartment.
20 Now, are you able to see and mark with a circle the general area
21 of Nedzarici on this map?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you put a 2 inside that circle, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Now, at both of those same pages of your previous
1 testimony you said that Nedzarici was, as far as you knew, being held by
2 the Bosnian Serb army. How do you know that? What's the basis for that
4 A. Shots came from that area, from that direction.
5 Q. So that actually seems to answer a question which I haven't put
6 that says -- that would be: How do you know the origin of fire? But my
7 question -- and thank you for that. My question is: How do you know
8 that, as you said, it was the Serb army that held that area?
9 A. We were surrounded. We were not able to move very far. We could
10 only move around Dobrinja, and even that was life-threatening. It was at
11 each of our's own risk.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I'm not quite clear, ma'am. The
14 interpretation said you are saying you were surrounded. Are you saying
15 the whole area of Dobrinja was surrounded by Serbs, Serb armies, or are
16 you saying the Serb army was in Nedzarici only, to your knowledge?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that both Dobrinja and
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. But the lawyer is trying to find out
20 more about the source of the fire that injured you on the day in question
21 or that was attacking the area of Dobrinja during that time. She's not
22 asking about the whole of Sarajevo
23 Now, I want to know: Are you saying that Dobrinja was
24 surrounded, or are you saying that there were soldiers stationed in
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dobrinja was surrounded.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, ma'am.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Just related to that, one more question, perhaps
4 to try to get closer to the answer.
5 Q. How do you know it was the Serb army in Nedzarici and not the
6 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? How do you know?
7 A. Well, the fire came from that direction, and we were not able to
8 move towards that direction.
9 Q. All right, thank you. I'll move on to another question related
10 to your previous testimony.
11 At page 2836 you seem to have tried to illustrate to the Trial
12 Chamber the distance between you and the water pump when the explosion
13 occurred, and the measure didn't quite come across because you said, It's
14 about as far as the distance between me and the door, and I wonder if you
15 can give us an estimate, perhaps in metres, as to how far you were when
16 the explosion occurred.
17 A. Some 10 metres away from the pump. That was the distance between
18 me and the pump.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, I have one last question, and we'll just keep
20 this map up on the screen for a moment, please.
21 At page 2840 you said that Dobrinja was regularly shelled and all
23 know that, that Sarajevo
24 some kilometres from the city centre? What's the basis for your
1 A. I had a sister living downtown and some relatives of mine as
2 well. When Dobrinja was blocked across Nedzarici, it was very dangerous
3 to pass through that area, and I was bound for work. Of course, it was
4 up to me to decide whether I would want to show up for work or not
5 because of the danger. My company was housed in the old town, and it was
6 my decision to go to work nevertheless. The danger it involved was
7 grave, but fortunately nothing happened to me. There were shots fired.
8 The targets were even the public transportation means.
9 Q. So I understand from what you're saying that you know the
10 situation in the whole city during the conflict because you did travel to
11 work from Dobrinja to the city centre and back again when you could.
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question,
15 after all.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton?
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I'll rephrase.
18 Q. So based on what you're saying, did you receive information as to
19 the situation in the whole of the city from your sister and your
21 A. But of course, and I was myself witness to it.
22 Q. What did you hear, first, from your sister and your relatives,
23 and then tell us what you saw.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have not been objecting to this
1 line of questioning so far because the emphasis was, and I was able to
2 see this from the statements and the testimony, on what was contained in
3 the summary; however, now a completely new topic is being broached, one
4 that I did not expect would be raised in view of what the Prosecutor has
5 indicated to us. We are coming to a new area now that was not notified
6 to us in the proofing note, and that's the area of incidents.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, the indication was that
9 the witness was going to explain -- the indication in the proofing note
10 was that the witness was going to explain the basis for her assertion
11 that all of Sarajevo
12 my original question was, What's the basis for your knowledge?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem with the Bench is that that very issue
14 is not mentioned anywhere in her statement. Her statement doesn't talk
15 about her knowledge of shelling in Sarajevo. She talks about how she got
16 injured on the 18th of June, if you look at her statement.
17 MS. EDGERTON: My question was with respect to the line in her
18 previous testimony as opposed to her statement, Your Honour, line 2840,
19 and it was to clarify the basis of that assertion -- please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just another point while you're referring to line
21 2840 --
22 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, page 2840.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You keep referring us to these pages without
24 giving us the lines, and it takes us time to find what you're referring
25 to. Please, can you, when you make a reference, give us the line as
2 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely, Your Honour. Shall I do that now for
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that for 2840 and remember to do that in
5 the future.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, and my apologies.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right.
8 MS. EDGERTON: The line references for the passage that I was
9 seeking to clarify, Your Honour, is 2840, lines 16 to 20, and in
10 particular line 19.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Thank you very much, ma'am.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Still, Your Honour, I have to object.
13 I did not give -- get an indication of this in the proofing note, and I
14 believe that the Prosecutor ought to have indicated it in the proofing
15 note. If the Prosecutor wanted to clarify this sentence concerning the
16 shelling of Sarajevo
17 dealing with on the basis of what the witness had told her. I don't have
18 that sort of notification from the proofing note.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: May I, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've asked you to ...
22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Your Honour, note 5 of the proofing note
23 bears the wrong page number of the transcript. Note 5 says:
24 "Referring to page 2836 of her previous testimony, the witness
25 will explain the basis for her assertion that the whole of Sarajevo
2 Your Honour, I've made another mistake with respect to referring
3 to the page numbers, and that didn't assist my friend or the Chamber in
4 this case.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have your proofing notes, ma'am, and so
6 we have no assistance at all in that respect.
7 MS. EDGERTON: No. And I am just saying mea culpa --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I understand something here? This is
9 something that's springing on me for the first time. Must the Defence be
10 notified of every little point that is going to be raised in the proofing
11 note or must the Defence be given a copy of the testimony of the witness
12 in the previous case and a copy of the statement and the proofing note,
13 to the extent that it summarises whatever proofing was done, and is the
14 indication not that therefore anything that is in those documents can be
15 touched upon? I need guidance here. In other words, I'm trying to
16 understand your objection, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the gist of my objection
18 is that if this is a witness testifying under 92 ter, or viva voce, and
19 if the Prosecutor learns of a new incident or a new event that the
20 Prosecutor wishes to raise, we have to be informed of the contents of the
21 incident, of the substance of the incident. Above all, I believe that we
22 should not only be informed of that but also be informed in advance.
23 If the topic of the Prosecutor is the general situation in
25 such and such for these reasons, then I have to be aware of this in
1 advance in order to prepare myself for that, rather than being surprised
2 by the topic in the courtroom.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Precisely, Mr. Lukic. My question is for you to
4 get this advanced notice, must that be made, that notice be made in the
5 proofing note, or is it sufficient that that point is referred to in any
6 of the documents that you have received, and any of those documents could
7 be, indeed, the proofing note, could be the statement of the witness,
8 could be the testimony of the witness in a previous case? And I'm
9 saying -- I'm asking the question: If the Prosecutor touches on a point
10 that is in any one of these documents but the proofing note, are you
11 saying she's not entitled to do that? Is that the basis for your
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may consult with my colleague,
14 Mr. Guy-Smith. We have already discussed the matter, and it is an
15 important issue for the future.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please do.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our position is the following, Your
19 Honour: If the Prosecutor wants to, in the course of the examination of
20 the witness, touch upon a qualification of a matter that was -- that
21 concerned the witness and if this matter has not been specifically
22 mentioned in the earlier documents but if the issue appears as a
23 completely novel issue in the proofing note, then the Prosecutor must
24 give us a detailed description of the incident. If the issue concerns a
25 matter that was dealt with specifically in the earlier statements or
1 testimonies and if, on that basis, we are able to prepare for the
2 cross-examination, this issue need not be described in the proofing note.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to read the translation of what you've
4 just said because I'm not understanding what you are saying.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall I stop and listen? Okay, you tell me.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, only because proofing notes, and I
8 have a kind of a long history.
9 Essentially, we understand the function of a proofing note to be
10 where the Prosecution has obtained information which is distinct from,
11 different to, or contradictory of information that previously existed
12 either in the form of testimony or a statement. When such a condition
13 arises, the Prosecution is to inform the Defence so that we have specific
14 information with regard to either a contradiction or actual shift in the
15 witness's testimony --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand you.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- or an expansion of the witness's testimony
18 which could be considered to be distinct. And the difficulty that we
19 have in this particular case is that -- and I'm not being, for the
20 moment, critical yet because I think there's a distinction in terms of
21 the views that we have about what we call "incidents," and I put that in
23 When a witness now begins to testify about additional incidents
24 which have not been scheduled or otherwise mentioned beforehand,
25 information which we were not privy to before, it's our understanding
1 that this information is information that should be contained in the
2 proofing notes because it now raises a distinct evidential factual
3 matter, potentially a distinct evidential conceptual matter that we
4 beforehand had not been privy to.
5 I hope that's of some assistance in terms of what our thinking
6 and understanding is, because what the whole idea here is, is that the
7 Prosecution, by virtue of the proofing procedure, however you wish to
8 define that procedure, has obtained new information which actually
9 constitutes another statement, and that new information is information
10 which we're entitled to in terms of preparing and properly
11 cross-examining a witness.
12 This is the reason why I said beforehand that it would be a good
13 idea to have verbatim copies of proofing notes in case we ever got
14 involved in any disputes about what was going on. Once again, here's
15 another example where what you have is an expansion of previous
16 testimony, so it's new information. It's a new statement that we don't
17 have. And it's coupled --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is new, Mr. Guy-Smith?
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: What's new -- what's new at this point, and I may
20 be taking some liberty with my colleague's -- with my colleague's
21 analysis of this particular factual situation, but what's new, as I
22 understand it, is that the basis of an opinion which is now based upon
23 factual material, as the witness has testified, she received information
24 from certain specific places, is new information for us. This is
25 information we did not have before, information could be coming from --
1 it could be coming from a sourced place, it could be coming from an
2 unsourced place, it could be coming from a sourced place that occurred
3 after many years. I mean, there are a variety of ways that this could
4 come to the witness, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the witness.
5 But rather, the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter
6 is with regard to the information itself, if we don't know what that
7 information is, then we are not in a position to figure out how to deal
8 with it. And I hope I'm being clear, but I see that you still have a
9 question about what I'm saying.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, indeed.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask this one thing.
13 See, the information that I thought we were talking about is the
14 assertion by the witness of the attack of the whole of Sarajevo, and I'm
15 not quite sure whether this is new information or this is information
16 that is already contained in the statement of the witness. Your
17 colleague says, she referenced it as 2836, she meant to say 2840, lines
18 16 to 20, and what I do find to be new in her line of questioning is when
19 she wants to know how the witness knew that, but not the attack itself.
20 The attack it already -- it's old news.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're on the exact same page, Your Honour. We're
22 on the exact same page. And our submission is this, and I hazard a guess
23 here in terms of what happened during the proofing session: During the
24 proofing session, either Ms. Edgerton or one of her colleagues said,
25 Listen, you testified to this particular matter, referring to the proper
1 page. She said, Yes, I did. They said, Well, how did you get that
2 information? What is that testimony based on? And the witness said at
3 that point said, This testimony is based upon the following information,
4 not the -- as you've put it, not the issue of the attack itself, but this
5 is how I came to that conclusion. That's information that we don't have.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that's what is being objected to.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Just your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour,
10 while I consult with my colleague, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MS. EDGERTON: After having spoken with my colleagues and
15 reviewed my friend's position, and taking into consideration the time
16 we're spending on a matter like this -- actually, can I digress for a
17 moment, Your Honour, before I risk losing it and we move much further.
18 Could I ask that the marked map be admitted as an exhibit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The marked map is admitted as an exhibit. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P123, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Yes, Madam Edgerton.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Taking into consideration everything,
25 including the amount of time we're spending on this kind of issue with
1 this kind of witness, Your Honour, I think this is as far as I will go
2 with the witness, and I will withdraw the question that my friend is
3 objecting to.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And when you say "this is as
5 far as you will go with the witness," what do you mean?
6 MS. EDGERTON: I mean that my examination of the witness is
7 concluded now, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Now that you have concluded
9 your examination-in-chief, can I raise a concern now that I have?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I am taking into account the fact that this
12 objection took long, but for a person who's coming here on a 92 ter
13 basis, I think we've been very long with this witness, and I've been
14 finding the leading of witnesses, 92 ter witnesses, to be rather too long
15 and wondering why don't you just call them viva voce, because of the time
16 that we take with them. It's just a concern that I'm putting on the
17 table. I would like the Prosecution to please take care of it because
18 you are the people who are calling the witnesses at this point in the
20 MS. EDGERTON: Understood, Your Honour, and we'll take it into
21 account and discuss it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, good morning.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. My name is Novak Lukic, and I will be putting some questions to
4 you on behalf of the Defence team for Mr. Perisic.
5 Throughout the war you lived in Dobrinja, did you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I have a question for you arising from your discussions with the
8 Prosecution. You said until the time when Nedzarici was liberated, do
9 you recall when it was?
10 A. Nedzarici was not liberated, and I can't give you a date because
11 I'm not a military expert and I did not move about a great deal.
12 However, the road that we could use was liberated, although one could use
13 it at one's own risk. There were trenches that were dug out for
14 pedestrians to use, although you could use a vehicle, but it was shot at.
15 Q. You didn't say what time period that was.
16 A. That was sometime in 1993 or 1994 that the trenches were made.
17 Q. Thank you. Dobrinja is a residential area, is it not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was the entire neighbourhood of Dobrinja under the control of the
20 BH army, and you'll know what I mean by "under the control," or were
21 parts of the Dobrinja area under the control of the Serbian forces?
22 A. I suppose that your question has to do with whether I could move
24 Q. No, my question was simple. Was the entire area of Dobrinja --
25 A. No, the centre of Dobrinja was an area where one could move about
1 freely. Is that sufficient an answer? Of course one could move about at
2 one's own risk.
3 Q. We will have to slow down, both of us. Can you please make a
4 pause before answering my question.
5 A. Very well.
6 Q. Were parts of the Dobrinja area specifically named to the effect
7 that you had Dobrinja 1, 2, 3, and 4?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Will you agree with me that the separation line, and when I say
10 "the separation line," I'm referring to the line dividing the BH army on
11 the one hand and the Serbian army on the other, was some 400 to 500
12 metres away from the Simon Bolivar school where the incident took place?
13 A. Well, the distance may have been a bit greater than the one you
15 Q. Do you know that some 200 metres away from the school there was
16 the command post of the 155th Mountain Brigade of the BH army?
17 A. The numbers mean -- do not mean anything to me, and I was not
18 aware of that.
19 Q. Well, were you generally aware of the existence of a command post
20 of a unit of the BH army nearby?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Within the neighbourhood of Dobrinja itself, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know who Ismet Hadzic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who he is?
2 A. His role was something that I couldn't tell you really,
3 precisely. He was responsible for --
4 Q. I'll tell you. Commander of the 155th Brigade of the BH army.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it was his command post that was located there that you said
7 you knew about.
8 A. Well, I don't know that.
9 Q. At the time or later on, did you hear that on the 15th of June,
10 so several days before the incident, a large offensive was launched by
11 the BH army on the Sarajevo
12 A. No.
13 Q. You don't know at all that there was an offensive taking place at
14 the time in Sarajevo
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Now I'll ask you some matters concerning your statement and
17 testimony. You said - and that's at page 2844, line 4, Your Honours -
18 that the water pump was the safest in Dobrinja.
19 A. Yes, that was the safest pump because it was within an enclosure.
20 It was within the compound of the school that had been shelled at the
21 start of the war and only a skeleton of it remained, whereas all the
22 other water pumps were out in the open, although I didn't go there to see
24 Q. Although you didn't go there, you said. I believe your husband
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That pump had never been shelled before that incident.
3 A. I don't think so, no, save for the fact that the school itself
4 was targeted at the beginning.
5 Q. After the shell had fallen, you said - and it's transcript page
6 2656, line 10 - that you did not see anything at that moment, that you
7 were in a daze, and you managed to crawl away. So may I conclude that
8 you did not see who stayed in that area and what happened next?
9 A. Of course, not until I came around.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand the question, Mr. Lukic, and I
11 know the witness has answered it. You said: "So may I conclude that you
12 did not see who stayed in that area and what happened next?" What do you
13 mean by "stayed"? Who remained there after the explosion? Okay.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness and I understood each
15 other. Perhaps there is a slight error in the interpretation. What I
16 meant is, on the spot where the shell fell, she did not see anything
17 happening in that spot.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness marked a map a
20 moment ago, I hope I can have the assistance of the court officer. It's
21 map 02, 2719. I would like to have that same map unmarked, an unmarked
22 copy of the coloured map, 65 ter 2719, because I can see the witness
23 finds it easier to use.
24 Q. Witness, can you see the Sarajevo
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now you will take the pen you have next to you, and on the screen
2 itself would you please circle the central area of the airport and mark
3 it with a 1.
4 A. Is this all right? Can you erase this so I can try again.
5 Q. At that time who controlled the airport?
6 A. When I was injured?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. The UNPROFOR.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you see Butmir in this map?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Can you place number 2 there.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Will you agree with me that Butmir was controlled by BH forces?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you see Alipasino Polje in this map?
16 A. I suppose it is here, these buildings here.
17 Q. Would you mark it with 3. In fact, it's even written
18 Alipasino Polje.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Who controlled that area?
21 A. The BH army.
22 Q. Can you see Mojmilo area and the Mojmilo hill?
23 A. I can see the writing -- yes, I can see it.
24 Q. Can you place a 4 there.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. That was also controlled by the BH army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you see Donji Kotorac?
4 A. Yes, I can see it.
5 Q. Mark it with 5.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Who controlled that area?
8 A. I believe it's also the BH army.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I tender this map
10 into evidence?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please
12 be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D4, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions of this
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
19 Any re-examination, Madam Edgerton?
20 MS. EDGERTON: Just one small thing, Your Honour, if I can go
21 back up to the -- to page 26, line 20.
22 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
23 Q. Madam, my friend said to you at page 26, line 20: "After the
24 shell had fallen," and he referred to a page of your previous testimony
25 28 -- it's written in here 2656, but I'm sure he meant 2856, line 10, and
1 he said to you:
2 "After the shell had fallen, you said that you didn't see
3 anything at that moment, that you were in a daze and you managed to crawl
4 away. So I may conclude that you did not see who stayed in that area and
5 what happened next."
6 And your answer was: "Of course, not until I came around."
7 Now, do you remember my colleagues and I read back to you your
8 previous testimony from the Dragomir Milosevic case? Do you remember
9 that yesterday?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Now, at page 2856, lines 9 and 10, you said: "My eyes went --"
12 in respect of the impact of the shell.
13 "My eyes went blind at that moment, so I didn't see those people.
14 When I was rising to my feet, I did see people around me."
15 Do you remember giving that answer?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you stand by that answer today?
18 A. Yes, I do. That's approximately what I said to the gentleman,
19 that when I came around, only then did I see.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. EDGERTON: No further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton.
23 Judge? Judge, questions for the witness?
24 Thank you, ma'am. This brings us to the end of your testimony.
25 Thank you very much for coming to testify. You are now excused, and you
1 may stand down. Please travel well back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton? Mr. Saxon?
5 MS. EDGERTON: A concern that we should have gone into private
6 session for her leaving, Your Honour. She has facial distortion, if
7 you'll recall.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. How do we rectify that situation at
9 this stage?
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told the cameras were away. But supposing
12 they were not away, how do we -- is there any way we can correct the
13 situation at this stage?
14 MS. EDGERTON: I think Your Honour can, for the broadcast outside
15 of the Tribunal, now order a redaction of that portion of the tape, so
16 that will be taken from the external broadcast.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. It's ordered, then, that we will redact the
18 walking out of the witness from court.
19 MS. EDGERTON: And I'm not sure anymore what the delay is for the
20 internal broadcast. It may be too late, but we may have 15 minutes. I
21 just simply don't recall at this time.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whatever may have happened, we ask that that part
24 be redacted, please.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm being told there's just nothing to redact
2 because her face was not shown at that time. But I did think that even
3 if there's nothing to redact, you can have a blank -- a dark colour on
4 that part, just to show that you meant to do that. You don't redact only
5 when there's writing or something. But I don't know this technology
6 so --
7 MS. EDGERTON: I don't either, but thank you for the extra
8 precautions you've indicated you wish to take, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done, Madam Edgerton?
12 MS. EDGERTON: I'll take my leave now, Your Honour, if we could
13 just have a moment to switch chairs, to return sometime later on this
14 morning. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see Mr. Saxon is standing. Mr. Saxon, yes?
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will lead the next witness,
17 but I do see the time, and perhaps it would make sense now to take the
18 first break before the next witness comes in.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: So we don't repeat what happened yesterday. Let's
20 take the break now and come back at a quarter to 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon. Oh, is it Mr. Cannata? Sorry,
24 Mr. Cannata. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
25 MR. CANNATA: Good morning, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.
2 MR. CANNATA: The Prosecution calls Witness Andja Gotovac.
3 Your Honours, this is a 92 ter witness, for the record.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And there's no protective measures.
5 MR. CANNATA: Correct, Your Honours.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
8 THE WITNESS [Interpretation]: I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Good morning, ma'am. You may be seated.
12 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
13 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: ANDJA GOTOVAC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
17 Q. Good morning, madam. How are you today?
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Can you please state your full name, place and date of birth, for
20 the record, please.
21 A. Andja Gotovac. The 23rd of March, 1930. Travnik, Vucja Gora.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you give two statements to the Office of the
23 Prosecutor on 12th March 1997
24 A. I did, yes.
25 MR. CANNATA: Can I have 65 ter 9278 on the e-court, please.
1 Thank you. Can I have it zoomed in at the -- where the signature is at
2 the bottom on the right. Yes, that's it.
3 Q. Madam Witness, do you see a document on your screen?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Do you see your signature on the English document?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Was this document read out to you in a language you understand
9 A. It was.
10 Q. Do you confirm that what you say in the document -- in the
11 statement is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you say the same if you were asked to speak about the same
14 events today?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, may I move 65 ter 9278 into evidence,
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P124, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can I have now 65 ter 9279 on the
23 e-court, please. Can I have it zoomed down to the signature part --
24 okay, that's good. Thank you.
25 Q. Madam Witness, do you see a document in front of you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you see your signature on the document --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yes.
5 Was this document read out to you yesterday in a language you
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you confirm today that what you say in the statement is
9 true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge and belief?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you say the same statement if you were asked to speak about
12 the same events today? Would you?
13 A. Yes. I may have forgotten some bits in the meantime, but most of
14 it, yes.
15 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, may I tender this document into
16 evidence? Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P125, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
22 Q. Madam Witness, do you -- did you testify in -- before this
23 Tribunal in the case, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, last year?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was a copy of your testimony in this case read out to you in a
1 language you understand yesterday?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to review a copy of the medical
4 record attached to that transcript?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, do you confirm that what you said in your testimony in the
7 case, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, is true and accurate, to the
8 best of your knowledge?
9 A. It is true, yes.
10 Q. Would you give the same answers today if asked the same
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you.
14 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, at this point I would like to tender
15 into evidence 65 ter 9280, which is the transcript from the Dragomir
16 Milosevic case.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 9280 is admitted. May it please be given
18 an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P126, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. CANNATA: And also 65 ter 4487, which is the exhibit
22 associated to the transcript, and I would like to tender this exhibit
23 under seal, and I can give you the reasons for that.
24 First of all, it's because this document was admitted under seal
25 in previous proceedings, namely, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic.
1 Secondly, it's a medical record about the witness and putting this --
2 putting the exhibit under seal will protect the witness's privacy.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.
4 65 ter 4487 is admitted into evidence under seal. May it please
5 be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P127, under seal, Your
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 At this point I would like to read a short summary of the
11 witness's evidence, with your leave.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have the leave.
13 MR. CANNATA: Witness Andja Gotovac has given evidence in respect
14 of scheduled incident A5 of the indictment, that is, the incident that
15 occurred on 24 May 1995
16 civilians were killed and at least five, including the witness Gotovac
17 herself, were wounded by the explosion of a projectile.
18 The witness testified at on 24 May 1995, at around 10 a.m.
19 was sitting outside her house in Safeta Zajke Street when she was hit by
20 the explosion of a projectile. As a result of such explosion, Witness
21 Gotovac sustained serious injuries.
22 The witness testified that she never saw any Bosnian army
23 soldiers or positions in the vicinity of the area where she -- where the
24 explosion which resulted in her wounding occurred.
25 Your Honour, that completes my examination-in-chief. Thank you
1 very much.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Lukic.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Gotovac, good morning.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. My name is Novak Lukic. I'm the lawyer who will be putting
8 questions to you now on behalf of the Defence for Mr. Perisic.
9 Mr. Prosecutor has just briefly reminded the Trial Chamber of
10 your previous statements and testimonies. In my understanding, you gave
11 two statements to the OTP, and you testified in the Milosevic case. On
12 one occasion you gave to the OTP a short statement that you had given to
13 the police.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let me leave out the proofing for the earlier testimony and the
16 one you had yesterday. Had you had any other interviews with the Bosnian
17 authorities concerning this incident?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you. You're a pensioner, aren't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You used to work in a factory, did you not? Can you repeat your
22 answer audibly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Please pause for a second after my question so that the
25 interpretation can run.
1 Can you tell me what it was that you did in the factory.
2 A. I worked in the textile factory called Sik.
3 Q. That was in Sarajevo
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you worked there as a textile worker, I presume?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, did anybody from your family or from your immediate
8 environment have anything to do with the army? Was anybody an active
9 member of the army, an officer, or perhaps one of your neighbours?
10 A. Well, how should I know who was a member of the army? None of my
11 family were, since we were mostly women anyway.
12 Q. Thank you. In your first statement, that's Exhibit P124, in
13 paragraph 2, you said that you were hit by a modified air bomb. That's
14 what the statement says. Can you tell me what is a modified air bomb, or
15 aerial bomb?
16 A. Yes, I can. I was in the front yard when I heard the sound of a
17 plane. There was an explosion and it was -- it was a tube, a barrel, on
18 the ground. That's what they talked about and that's what I saw.
19 Q. I can therefore conclude that it was from the stories that you
20 heard that what hit the ground was a modified aerial bomb.
21 A. Well, I know what a bomb is, but this was a long barrel, and I
22 saw it. I went past it in my yard as they were taking me to the hospital
23 when I was wounded.
24 Q. Do you know what an aerial bomb looks like?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat her answer.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness has been requested to repeat her
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. -- speak audibly.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, could you speak audibly.
8 May I ask that the microphones be brought a little closer to the
9 witness. I'm mindful of the injuries of the witness.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You have to speak up a bit. Relax, Madam Gotovac. My question
12 was: Do you know what an aerial bomb looks like?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 In your testimony, at page 4463, line 12, and in your statement,
16 the first statement you gave, in paragraph 4, you said that you had heard
17 stories about the bomb having come from Trebevic, according to some, or
18 from Hresa, according to others.
19 A. Yes, that's what I said. I don't know about that. It was
20 something others were talking about.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may interrupt.
22 Mr. Cannata, my copy of the witness's transcript does not have
23 pages 4456 to 4464.
24 MR. CANNATA: The reason being because the Prosecution didn't
25 tender that part of the transcript. The Prosecution only tendered the
1 examination-in-chief of Ms. Gotovac.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now Mr. Lukic is asking the witness about
3 something that's on page 4463, which we don't have.
4 MR. CANNATA: I can provide you with a hard copy of these
5 transcripts, if that might assist the Chambers.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. I thought the purpose was that we can
7 follow, so if we don't have the pages right --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour, read out the
9 relevant part to make it easier and to have that portion in the
10 transcript. The page is 4463, line 2.
11 [In English] "I don't know myself from which direction the
12 projectile came, but I was told that it came from Hresa."
13 Line 12: Some people say it came from Hresa, and other people
14 say from Trebevic. I don't know where it came from. I'm not sure where
15 it came from."
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I saw that the Prosecutor was on his
19 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I just wanted to put in the record
20 that it was not part of the Prosecution obligation to upload on the
21 e-court portions of the transcripts which the Prosecution didn't seek
22 leave to tender.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Madam Gotovac, did you perhaps hear stories about the distance
1 that the bomb may have covered?
2 A. No, I didn't, because at that point all of us, the dead and the
3 wounded, were taken to the hospital, and later on I didn't hear any such
4 stories. In fact, I was avoiding it.
5 Q. My question implied whether you had heard such stories later on,
6 not at that time. But you have given me your answer.
7 Your first statement given to the OTP - that's Exhibit 114,
8 paragraph 3 - says something you said just now, that you heard a sound
9 which reminded you of the sound of a plane. You looked up to see who it
10 was, the madman who flew so low, and then you heard the explosion. Can
11 you tell me: How much time has elapsed between the time you heard the
12 noise of the plane and the explosion itself?
13 A. A couple of seconds, I guess. There was mayhem right away. It
14 was horrific. At that point I wasn't able to know what was happening.
15 Q. But you heard the sound that at first was quite soft and then
16 became louder.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that's when you -- when that thought crossed your mind.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your testimony, at page -- rather, paragraph 3 of the same
21 statement, you said that your quarter of town was shelled. Were you able
22 to distinguish between the sounds of mortars, howitzers, tank shells?
23 Were you able to do that at the time?
24 A. No. It was quite difficult.
25 Q. You also testified at page 4458, line 5, and in the second
1 statement, paragraph 3, you said that there were no snipers active in
2 your neighbourhood and that you could freely move about the area.
3 A. That's correct. There were none.
4 Q. Do we agree that sniper incidents only took place close to the
5 front line?
6 A. They happened throughout the town. But since we're a bit away,
7 we're on the edge of town, we didn't have them.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A moment, please.
9 Q. I'm talking about your second statement, paragraph 3. You said:
10 "Our part of town was sufficiently removed from the front lines,
11 and we did not have to worry about snipers."
12 This is what you said.
13 A. Yes, our quarter of town.
14 Q. And that's how I concluded that snipers were active in the
15 proximity of the front lines.
16 A. I don't know how I should explain this to you now. If you take
17 the main streets, the Titova Street, Grbavica, up there, there were
18 snipers, including Hrasno.
19 Q. And the Miljacka separated the warring parties, did it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know that the BH army had snipers, mortars, howitzers?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Mr. Prosecutor has just referred to paragraph 4 of your second
24 statement where you said that there had never been any army in your
25 neighbourhood. You said that, do you remember?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Is it true that the army passed through your neighbourhood on
3 their way to Zuc mount where the BH army had positions?
4 A. They probably did pass through the area, but since I spent most
5 of the time in shelter, more time in shelter than I did in my home or in
6 the street - I was in a four-storey building; we stayed in the shelters
7 all the time and we only ventured upstairs to get some provisions - I
8 didn't see them.
9 Q. But whoever wanted to go to Zuc through the town, they had to
10 pass through your neighbourhood.
11 A. Well, our neighbourhood was crossed by the main street, but there
12 were other streets.
13 Q. You mean in that same quarter of town?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the immediate proximity of your house, some 100 metres away,
16 there was the TV building, was there not?
17 A. Yes. Some 100, 150 metres as the crow flies.
18 Q. Very well.
19 And nearby there was the power transformer station, was it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There was also the Novi Grad municipality building nearby, was it
23 A. Yes, behind the TV building. There was only one street
24 separating the two.
25 Q. The wire factory was close by as well, was it not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know what it was that they manufactured?
3 A. I don't know because I was further back.
4 Q. I will not be asking you to speak of the details of the incident.
5 This is part of the case file. At any rate you don't know where the
6 shell that hit came from. You, yourself, don't know but you only heard
7 stories about it. Can you please confirm that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And finally, let me ask you about something else that concerns
10 your second statement. That's Exhibit 115, paragraph 2. There, you
11 describe the arrival of CNN journalists. Upon your return from the
12 hospital, CNN journalists came to visit you at home, and they talked to
13 you and they filmed you, I guess.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You had heard from a relative of yours that he had seen footage
16 of you on the TV.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall whether you told the journalists about where the
19 shell had come from?
20 A. Well, they were quite a few people there, and all of them talked.
21 There was a whole group of us.
22 Q. You talked about what the stories were about where the shell had
23 come from.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But you don't recall whether the footage that was made talked
1 about where the shell had come from?
2 A. I don't know. I only cared about getting out of the hospital and
3 going home. I didn't care about stories at all.
4 Q. Thank you, Madam Gotovac.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have completed my cross-examination
6 of the witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
8 Just for my own edification, Mr. Lukic, you referred here at page
9 44, line 18, to Exhibit 115. Exhibit 115, are you talking about exhibits
10 in this case?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I made a note correctly.
12 I believe that the second statement is Exhibit 115, unless I'm mistaken.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: 125.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tried to memorise the numbers, but
15 I made a mistake. So I meant the second statement, which is now
16 Exhibit 125.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 Any re-examination, Mr. Cannata?
19 MR. CANNATA: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Judge? Judge?
22 Ma'am, thank you so much for coming to testify in the Tribunal.
23 This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony. You are now
24 released. You may stand down. Please travel well back home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Your Honour, the next scheduled witness, Mr. Gicevic, is nearly
6 ready to begin his testimony, and there is a short proofing note which
7 has just -- literally just been e-mailed to the Defence. Of course, they
8 will need a few minutes to look at that.
9 What I might recommend, if it's appropriate with the Trial
10 Chamber, is perhaps we could break in a few moments and resume perhaps at
12 the witness should be ready to go, and we should complete that witness
13 today, and I believe the Defence will be ready to cross-examine as well,
14 if that would be appropriate with the Chamber.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, before we break, I'm wondering whether,
18 because we have a few moments, whether the Prosecution might be allowed
19 to provide a short oral reply to a response that my colleagues submitted
20 last week related to a pending Prosecution motion related to the
21 testimony of General Wilson.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe we're referring to the issue of
24 unscheduled incidents.
25 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I'm in the Chamber's hands.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber would like to know how you place
3 yourself in its hands. Do you have any objections to this?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't -- I don't believe that I do.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I don't -- based upon the nature of the give
7 and take of motion work, I don't believe that I will be responding,
8 unless the Chamber wants me specifically to respond to whatever. I think
9 that's kind of the end of the give and take as between the parties.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I understand you.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: But if you wish to give me another opportunity, I
12 can probably bumble through.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not unless you ask for it, and it's duly
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, you may proceed.
17 MR. SAXON: Simply two points in reply, Your Honour, to the
18 response that my learned colleagues submitted last week.
19 First of all, the Defence argue that if the Prosecution is
20 permitted to lead this evidence of this particular incident of massive
21 shelling in Sarajevo
22 prejudiced because, according to the Defence, the Defence has not
23 received this information or this notice that this evidence would be led
24 in a timely fashion.
25 On the contrary, about a year and a half ago, I believe it was in
1 February of 2007, Your Honours, in the -- when the Prosecution filed its
2 Rule 65 summaries, the summary for Mr. Wilson included the following
4 "He will describe the shelling of Sarajevo and in particular a
5 bombardment on the order of 5 to 10.000 rounds of artillery that occurred
6 on 14 May 1992." Then later on:
7 "He will testify about notice received by the FRY authorities
8 from him directly and from other international representatives about the
9 shelling of civilian targets in Sarajevo
10 So certainly this particular event was something that the Defence
11 was on notice of.
12 Lastly, the Defence have argued that this evidence will not serve
13 to help prove -- to demonstrate the notice that was available to
14 Mr. Perisic about the events that were occurring in Sarajevo at that time
15 in 1992.
16 First of all, Mr. Wilson will testify, and this is in his prior
17 transcript, that his United Nations team had to redeploy to Belgrade
18 following this period of shelling, which, in the Prosecution's
19 submission, provides -- would provide very strong notice to the
20 authorities in Belgrade
21 And second of all, Mr. Wilson will be able to testify that his
22 colleagues informed him about the attention that this event received in
23 the news media in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Those are my only points in reply, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a concern about this motion, Mr. Saxon,
1 which I would like to raise with you, if you can help us.
2 There was a Rule 73 bis decision by the Pre-Trial Chamber, I
3 think it was in 2006 or 1997, I can't remember --
4 MR. SAXON: 15 May 2007.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 15 May 2007
6 how to go about filing these reports, and it indicated that the
7 Prosecution must give four weeks' notice -- wait a minute. It indicated
8 by when these reports were supposed to be filed, isn't it so?
9 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't have a copy of it before me, so I'm trying
11 to talk from memory, if I can.
12 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it doesn't seem as if they were filed during
14 the stipulated period of time, were they?
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour is correct. If I may, though, by way of
16 explanation, it is simply --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me establish the facts before you explain.
18 MR. SAXON: Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's stipulated by when these filings shall be
20 made. This filing comes well over a year after that stipulation. It
21 comes without any explanation why it comes so late. There is no good
22 cause shown why it should be -- it should be coming at this stage.
23 There's no prior for -- condemnation for the late filing. I find -- and
24 furthermore, the filing, if that order, I remember it well, says that
25 whatever filing must come, must come on four weeks' notice. This filing
1 comes less than four weeks -- less than four weeks' notice, again without
2 any explanation.
3 I am left with the impression that it doesn't seem as if the
4 orders of the Trial Chamber or the Pre-Trial Chamber mean anything to the
5 Prosecution. Am I wrong in this impression?
6 MR. SAXON: With great respect, I believe that you are wrong,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Please correct me.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with respect to these motions, for
10 example, with respect to Mr. Wilson, the Prosecution filed this motion as
11 soon as it was clear that Mr. Wilson was going to be available to testify
12 this week. It has simply been extremely difficult for the Prosecution to
13 schedule its witnesses four weeks in advance and to, if I may speak in
14 the vernacular, to nail down its witness schedule that far in advance.
15 So as soon as the Prosecution was sure that these witnesses would be
16 coming - Mr. Wilson and also Mr. Bell - then the Prosecution filed its
17 motion, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that it?
19 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't demonstrated where I'm wrong.
21 MR. SAXON: Well --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me -- I said to you, even in your filing of
23 your notice to call these witnesses, you're not addressing the issues --
24 you're not addressing your violations of the order of 2007. Now, I
25 understand that you may not be able to nail your witnesses -- the
1 scheduling of your witnesses in a way that you would like to, but at
2 least I would like you to give us that kind of explanation in your motion
3 when you ask to call the witness, not to give it orally now when the
4 Bench is asking you. And therefore I still ask my question: I get the
5 impression that the rulings of the Trial Chamber and the Pre-Trial
6 Chamber don't seem to mean much to the Prosecution, and am I wrong in
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, again with great respect, I believe that
9 position is not correct. If the Prosecution has done anything to suggest
10 otherwise, then I apologise on behalf of the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But are you saying, am I wrong in suggesting that
12 not only did you not comply with the ruling of May 2007, but you also do
13 not give any explanation why you failed to comply and ask for leave then
14 to be allowed to act and your action be regarded as if it was -- it was
15 in compliance with that order. Did you do so in your motion?
16 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't. Am I wrong, then, in my impression?
18 MR. SAXON: Again, with great respect, Your Honour, if --
19 obviously that was an oversight. But the very fact that the Prosecution
20 filed these motions as soon as it could is actually, Your Honour, it's an
21 indication that we are doing our best to comply.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not sure whether we're talking at
23 cross-purposes. I understand that. All I'm saying is, as you did file
24 those motions, you were aware of the decision of the Pre-Trial Chamber of
25 May 2007, and you were aware that your actions were in violation of
1 those, but you don't seem to say in your motion, I'm aware that I've been
2 ordered this way; I've not been able to comply and I ask you to please
3 condone my failure for the following reasons. You're not saying so in
4 your motion.
5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour is correct, yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'll ask you a fourth time for you to accept.
7 That's my concern, you see. I just find that the Prosecution doesn't
8 seem to pay any attention to the rulings of the Trial Chamber, or even
9 the Pre-Trial Chamber, and thinks that -- and, besides that ruling, you
10 actually have another remedy under Rule 73 bis (F) which you could have
11 brought in and given good cause why you want to expand on your list,
12 notwithstanding the ruling of May 2007. You didn't adopt that route
14 Having said that, I've heard your arguments. Thank you very
16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said we'll come back at 12?
18 MR. SAXON: At 12, Your Honour, if that would be all right.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The thing is -- okay. We'll work it out. We'll
20 take a break and come back at 12.00. Court adjourned.
21 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I suggest that now that we're starting at 12
24 instead of 12.30, we go up to half past 1.00 and break for the day. So
25 we'll go for one and a half hours this time instead of 1 hour, 15
1 minutes. Is that okay? Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Ms. April Carter will lead the next
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
6 MS. CARTER: May it please the Court, the office of the
7 Prosecution calls Alen Gicevic. Mr. Gicevic is a 92 ter witness, and he
8 also has given evidence in the Dragomir Milosevic case in respect of
9 scheduled incident B11, occurring on 3 March 1995. Witness Gicevic,
10 among others, was shot while riding on a tram in Sarajevo. The witness
11 testified that the shots came from the direction of Grbavica, a Bosnian
12 Serb-held position, and that there were no military targets where the
13 witness was shot.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am. While you're on your feet,
15 Madam Carter, Mr. Gicevic is not a protected witness, does not have any
16 protective measures at all?
17 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Good afternoon, sir. You may be seated.
25 Yes, Madam Carter.
1 WITNESS: ALEN GICEVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examination by Ms. Carter:
4 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you arrived at the Tribunal just this morning; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. However, this morning we did have the opportunity to meet, and we
8 went over your previous testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic case; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. CARTER: For the record, Your Honours, the transcript bears
12 the 65 ter number of 9288.
13 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you had the opportunity to read through that
14 transcript with a translator by the name of Ivana Manic; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in going through that transcript, there were a few
17 clarifications that needed to be made; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Specifically, there was a concern at page 1556, at lines 3 and 4,
20 that it had indicated that the tram that you were travelling on was going
21 from east to west, and you clarified later in the transcript, at 1556,
22 lines 23 and 24, and again today, that, in fact, that tram was travelling
23 the directions of west to east. Is that correct?
24 A. It's correct. The tram went from the west to the east.
25 Q. There was also a concern at transcript page 1564, lines 6 to 9,
1 in regards to the containers that were placed at certain intersections in
3 you're referring to containers being stacked upon each other, three to
4 four high; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And lastly, at transcript page 1565, line 6, there's a term used,
7 "Salvation Route." Now, you have indicated that this is not a term that
8 you had used, and you had used solely "Route of Life," which comes just
9 before it; is that correct?
10 A. I said it was the "Road of Life." It's a minor difference, for
11 those who know the terminology.
12 Q. So you're indicating the term is "Road" as opposed to "Route of
13 Life." Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After these clarifications have been made, do you accept that if
16 you were asked those same questions today, that your answers would be the
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would seek at this time
20 admittance of 65 ter number 9288.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 9288 is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P128, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 While we're there, Madam Carter, the Chamber hasn't been provided
1 with the 65 ter copies. Is there any reason for that?
2 MS. CARTER: One moment, Your Honour.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the 65 ter exhibits were released into
5 e-court, but you're correct, we did not provide a hard copy of those
6 documents. I do have a hard copy of the transcript, for the ease of the
7 Court, that I can certainly provide, but I would have to seek a break in
8 order to provide hard copies of the remainder.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We would rather not break, Madam Carter. Proceed.
10 But at a convenient time, if you can provide us with the copies, please.
11 MS. CARTER: Certainly, Your Honour, they will be provided
13 Q. Sir, when you went over the transcript, there were also seven
14 exhibits that were admitted within the transcript that we had gone
15 through as well; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And specifically, those exhibits are 65 ter number 9282, which
18 was Prosecution Exhibit 163 in the Milosevic case, which was your witness
19 statement of 15 November 1995
20 P164 in the Milosevic case, your witness statement of 21 April 2006; 65
21 ter number 9284, exhibited as P165 in Milosevic, which is a map marked by
22 you; 65 ter 9285, previously Exhibit P166 in the Milosevic case, an
23 additional map marked by you; 65 ter number 9286, previously P167, a map
24 marked by you; 65 ter 9287, previously Exhibit P168, a map marked by you;
25 and finally, 65 ter exhibit 4380, which in the Milosevic case was D23 but
1 has been exhibited in this case as P36, which is the criminal
2 investigation file for the incident of 3 March 1995. Are you adopting
3 these exhibits as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution seeks to
6 tender 65 ter numbers 9282 through 9287, and seek admittance.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. 65 ter 9282 through 9287 are admitted
8 into evidence. May they please be given exhibit numbers.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09282 will be Exhibit P129, Your Honours;
10 65 ter 09283 will be Exhibit P130; 65 ter 09284 will be Exhibit P131; 65
11 ter 09285 will be Exhibit P132; 65 ter 09286 will be Exhibit P133; and 65
12 ter 09287 will be Exhibit P134, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, madam.
14 Yes, Madam Carter.
15 MS. CARTER:
16 Q. As your previous transcript was quite complete, I want to cover
17 only two topics with you here today. The first, I want to discuss with
18 you the location of the sniping incident, and the last thing I want to
19 discuss with you is the route -- excuse me, the "Road of Life."
20 MS. CARTER: If I can bring up 65 ter number 8598, please.
21 Q. Sir, in your previous testimony, you did get the opportunity to
22 mark certain locations within Sarajevo
23 this is a picture that is far more detailed, as it's giving a much
24 tighter picture of the site of the sniping incident. So if you can
25 please mark on this exhibit where specifically the sniping incident
1 occurred, if you can circle it and then mark it with a 1.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. In your previous testimony at page 1570, the Defence counsel in
4 that case had tried to identify certain positions that may have been
5 military in nature, and you spoke of a number of these buildings
6 surrounding the site of the sniping incident and were explaining their
7 civilian function, so I'd like to have this exhibit marked with some of
8 those buildings.
9 First, can you identify with a number 2 the Holiday Inn.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Okay. Now, you put an X over it, so you're indicating that the
12 yellow building to the top middle of the screen is the Holiday Inn, and
13 you're marking it number 2; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. That's the Holiday Inn hotel.
15 Q. Can you now identify and mark the philosophy building with a 3.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Okay. Can you identify and mark the museum with a 4.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any of these buildings, the Holiday Inn,
20 the philosophy building, or the museum, being used in any sort of
21 military function?
22 A. As far as I know, there were no military installations there.
23 Q. Where was the closest military installation to the site of your
24 sniping incident?
25 A. Within the compound of the Marsal Tito barracks, and that is this
1 vacant area where buildings had been earlier. That's where the UNPROFOR
2 was based. And a bit to the left, to the west, was the traffic police
3 building. You cannot see it in this picture because it's further to the
4 left, after the picture.
5 Q. And I see that you've marked the Marsal Tito barracks with an X
6 and a 5 denoting that distance. Can you tell me, in metres, how far away
7 were the barracks from where you were shot?
8 A. That could be approximately 400, 500 metres.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MS. CARTER: I would like to have this exhibit marked into
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 8598 is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P135, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. CARTER: Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, you also had spoken of this "Road of Life," and that was at
18 transcript 156423. In order to explain a little bit further to the
19 Court, I'm going to have 65 ter number 8600 brought up. But in the
20 interim, can you please explain to the Court what was the "Road of Life,"
21 and what was the significance to the people of Sarajevo?
22 A. The "Road of Life" was the road used by people for their own
23 traffic, for transport, and it was safer than any other communication.
24 It was safer than anything else, but it was not absolutely safe because
25 it was also the target of sniping.
1 Outside that road, in front of the positions of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska, there was a large number of buildings which provided
3 cover for the people and the vehicles that used the road. All the other
4 roads were much less safe and much closer to the separation lines.
5 Q. When we spoke earlier, you had indicated that this was one of the
6 only roads in Sarajevo
7 A. Yes, but even that did not have absolute protection, because at
8 intersections and crossroads, you couldn't cover all the points to
9 guarantee safety for the traffic of people and vehicles.
10 Q. Okay. How was food and water brought in for the people of
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: I think this is going out of the scope of 92 ter.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Carter.
15 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the question is about the "Road of
16 Life." I'm just trying to get for the Court a clearer picture about the
17 import of this route to both this witness as well as to the people of
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then ask about the "Road of Life," Madam Carter,
20 not about food and water.
21 MS. CARTER:
22 Q. Outside of the people commuting along this road, was this road
23 used for any other purpose?
24 A. Since it was the only relatively safe road, it was used for all
25 possible purposes.
1 Q. Can you name purposes, other than the commuting of the people,
2 that this road was used for.
3 A. Well, the traffic of people and goods, to the extent that it was
4 possible to transport things from the west to the east at the time.
5 Q. Now, 65 ter 8600 is now before you, and I would ask you to mark
6 along this photograph in blue the route of life -- excuse me, the "Road
7 of Life."
8 A. This is just the shortest section of this so-called "Road of
9 Life," which ran for another 7 or 8 kilometres to the west.
10 Q. In addition to the "Road of Life," I would like you to mark in
11 red, if possible, the front line in Sarajevo
12 A. This is approximately up to the bridge on Vrbanja river and to
13 the left of the Jewish cemetery and on to the east.
14 MS. CARTER: I would like to seek to admit this exhibit into
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 8600 is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number. Sorry, the marked 8600 is admitted
18 into evidence.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P135, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MS. CARTER: At this time, Your Honour, the Prosecution has no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am.
24 Sorry, let me just find something out. You said P135, Madam
25 Registrar, not 136?
1 THE REGISTRAR: 135, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what was 65 ter 8958? What exhibit is that?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour is correct. It would be -- 8958
4 would be 135, and P100 marked by the witness will be Exhibit P136.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I see your learned friend still on her
9 feet. I thought she had said she had finished her examination, but yes,
11 MS. CARTER: I did, Your Honour. I just wanted for clarification
12 of the record, the 65 ter 8598 that's been annotated by this witness is
13 what I was seeking as Exhibit 135.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. 65 ter 8598 as annotated would be P135.
15 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Gicevic. My name is
18 Novak Lukic, and on behalf of the Defence of Mr. Perisic, I will question
19 you briefly. I know you arrived recently and went straight to your
20 proofing session, so you must be tired.
21 I understood when I read your previous testimony you were going
22 from Cengic Vila towards Bascarsija, and looking at the picture it's from
23 left to right; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it's correct.
25 Q. And as you were standing in the tram, Marindvor was to your left,
1 and the Jewish cemetery and Vraca was on your right side.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please wait for a second after my question so we don't overlap.
4 There is interpretation involved.
5 A moment ago you drew a red line to mark the separation line. In
6 fact, it's the Miljacka river. The Miljacka river was the separation
7 line between the territory controlled by the BH army and the territory
8 controlled by the VRS in this photograph; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Can we agree that from Miljacka river, from that separation line,
11 to the Zmaja Od Bosna Street where the tram was running, there is 200 or
12 300 metres, roughly.
13 A. Roughly, yes.
14 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you did not see where the bullet that hit you came
16 A. No, I did not see that.
17 Q. But you supposed, and that's transcript page 1557 from the
18 Dragomir Milosevic case, what the location could be, so you drew one
19 location, one highrise building, 12 to 13 floors, and the other possible
20 location is the Metalka company building.
21 A. Yes, I designated those two as possibilities.
22 Q. And you designated them, as you said in your first statement
23 given to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, on page 1559, you said
24 the same thing, you designated them that way because you said those were
25 the locations of the most notorious Serbs.
1 A. I didn't say anything about the most notorious Serbs. I said
2 that sniper bullets could have come from that side. I never used the
3 word "notorious" in reference to Serbs.
4 Q. Your first statement to the OTP, 15 November 1995, we don't have
5 the same numbering of paragraphs but I believe it's the ninth sentence
6 where you say, quote:
7 "The Chetniks held those positions. When I say 'Chetniks,' I
8 mean the worst part of the Serb population."
9 A. And it is completely different to what you said before.
10 Q. You are right. So to the best of your knowledge, those positions
11 were held by people to whom you referred as Chetniks and to whom you
12 referred as the most notorious part of the Serb population.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Judge Robinson asked you - that's at page 1559, line 10 - if you
15 had a specific reason to believe that the shots were fired from that
16 location and you said that you could only assume that the shots came from
17 those buildings because they were easily to be seen from the tram; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes, that's what I said.
20 Q. A moment ago you indicated on the map certain buildings that
21 Madam Prosecutor asked you about, and you indicated the location of the
22 museum building and of the faculty of philosophy building, I believe.
23 You said that, to your knowledge, the BH army did not have its positions
25 A. To my knowledge, no, they did not.
1 Q. At any rate the buildings were situated in the territory under
2 the control of the BH army.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To your right, that's to say, that particular area was to your
5 right in relation to the direction in which you were moving.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Reading the transcripts from your earlier testimony, I realised
8 that earlier on, some ten months before the incident, you were a member
9 of the army. You were there as a nurse.
10 A. I was a medical corps driver and, when necessary, also as a
11 nurse, and in July 1994 I was demobilised.
12 Q. Therefore, you cannot claim with any certainty where the BH army
13 positions were at the time when you were wounded.
14 A. No, I could not, but between the building and the tram that was
15 in motion, there were UNPROFOR APCs, and, in fact, the bullets would have
16 to pass through these APCs before hitting the passengers in the tram.
17 Q. And were these positions also along the route of the tram?
18 A. Yes. On all the intersections that I marked on the map there
19 were UNPROFOR APCs to be seen.
20 Q. Let me just clarify my question. When the Prosecutor asked you
21 at page 59, line 1, in English, the question was as follows: In relation
22 to the museum, the holiday inn building and the faculty of philosophy
23 building, whether there were facilities that had a military function.
24 And you answered, as it was entered in the English language, there were
25 no buildings that were military instillations. That's how it was entered
1 in the English version. To make it clear, in your view, you believed
2 that there were no members of the BH army positioned along those
3 facilities. That's your opinion, is it not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From the position where you stood in the tram, and you were
6 moving in such a way that you were facing the right bank of the Miljacka,
7 could you see both of the buildings of the museum and the faculty of
8 philosophy from your vantage point?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I will put a couple of questions to you in order to clarify the
11 details concerning the shot or the shots. All this time you have been
12 claiming, to put it that way, that there were several shots, that you
13 heard two to three shots.
14 A. I kept saying that it seemed to me that I heard two or three
16 Q. Perhaps I'm being too specific in my question, but I'd like to
17 know the following: Do you remember whether, in addition to these two to
18 three shots, any sounds of the pane smashing and so on?
19 A. Well, perhaps there were two shots and then the third sound was
20 that of the window-pane smashing, or perhaps it was a different ratio.
21 But it's very difficult to clearly distinguish all these sounds when one
22 is being shot at.
23 Q. At the time you were in the company of your girlfriend.
24 A. Yes, who is my wife today.
25 Q. Well, I did not wish to inquire in such great detail. You went
1 to the hospital with her, did you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you discuss the number of shots fired later on with her? Did
4 you ask her how many shots she had heard?
5 A. Well, she is listening to our discussion right now, and she also
6 believed that there were two to three shots fired. Women, by nature, are
7 more fearful so I guess she managed to gather less of the reality than I
9 Q. In addition to the documents, the criminal file of the case was
10 also entered into evidence, which includes, among other things, the
11 statement of Asima Bacvic; is that right?
12 A. Bacvic.
13 Q. Sorry, Asima Bacvic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is to be found,
15 that is to say, the criminal file, under number 35. I don't know if we
16 can see that in e-court. In the B/C/S, 00331681 is the number. P36.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it P36 or P35, sir? What are you asking for?
18 You said 36 or 35?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. P36 is the criminal file
20 related to the incident of the 3rd of March, 1995. The page in the B/C/S
21 that I have is 03316381, although I do know that the court officer
22 doesn't find the ERN numbers helpful. I think it's page -- either 23 or
23 24 of the document.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interject while we're looking for
25 the page. Could you please also remember to pause a little bit after the
1 witness has answered so that you don't overlap, and could you also do the
2 same, sir, pause after the question has been put to you so that you don't
3 overlap and give the interpreters an opportunity to interpret.
4 Yes, Madam Carter.
5 MS. CARTER: If it would be of assistance to the Court, Your
6 Honour, the English page that is being spoken of, there are multiple
7 translations within P36. The translation being spoken of right now is
8 0331-6361-1, at page 23.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is page 1 of the document,
10 in fact.
11 Q. Mr. Gicevic, I will read this out to you, a portion of the
12 statement given by your wife.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have the English version, and can
14 we now have the Serbian version as well so that Mr. Gicevic can have the
15 benefit of it. Thank you. No, that's not the one. That one belongs to
16 another person. A page earlier, please. Two pages ahead of that one in
17 the Serbian version. There it is. Thank you.
18 Q. Do you see it somewhere in the middle?
19 "When the vehicle was close to the museum, I heard the bullet hit
20 the tram and all the passengers hauled themselves onto the ground."
21 Based on this statement, I see that this is her statement, and I
22 know from the previous trial that the driver had also said that he had
23 heard one bullet only. Is it possible that you made a mistake?
24 A. It is possible, but I do stand by what I said earlier, that there
25 were two to three shots or hits.
1 Q. While we have the statement on the screen, let me indicate that I
2 noticed another issue that is different in your wife's statement from
3 what you said. You said that you left the tram and went to the hospital
4 on foot. First you said that you took a taxi, and then you corrected
5 yourself and said that you went there on foot.
6 A. I looked at the statement this morning, and it was quite
7 illogical for me to proceed from the taxi rank, which was close to
8 Zagreb Hospital
9 some 100 metres. It was a very short distance.
10 Q. So you stand by what you said?
11 A. Yes, that we took Albanska Street from Zagreb Hotel, or rather
12 from the tram stop, and reached the hospital on foot.
13 Q. So you believe that she made a mistake there?
14 A. Well, I don't think that she herself claims that.
15 Q. Well, look at it. Down there at he bottom it says:
16 " ... at the taxi rank close to the Zagreb Hotel, a taxi driver
17 got us in a car and took us to the state hospital where she was treated,"
18 and so on and so forth, "where Alen was treated," and so on and so forth.
19 A. I really don't remember.
20 Q. I can tell you what my case is. I doubt, on the basis of the
21 other statements, that there were more shots. I believe that there was
22 one shot which hurt somebody in the tram. In that sense, let me remind
23 you that when -- at page 1580, Judge Robinson asked you if you remembered
24 how that other individual was seated, the one that you noticed was also
25 injured in the tram, you said literally, page 15 -- line 58, you said
1 that your recollection of it was hazy or vague. Do you recall that?
2 A. Well, that was probably the case. If you asked me where various
3 individuals were seated in the tram that I rode on yesterday, I would
4 probably have difficulty in recalling it all.
5 Q. Can it be, then, that your recollection concerning the number of
6 shots fired was also hazy? Let me put this hypothesis to you: Since you
7 were injured and you saw another individual being injured, is it possible
8 that on the basis of this you concluded that there were several shots?
9 A. Initially, I said that there were one to two shots. Then I said
10 that I wasn't sure whether these were two shots or whether there was also
11 another sound of items smashing, and that's how I ended up saying that
12 there were, I believed, two to three shots.
13 Q. You were shot to your left upper leg; is that right?
14 A. A bit above the knee.
15 Q. The bullet stayed in your leg, and it was taken out only a couple
16 of days later.
17 A. Yes. There was no exit wound, but it was only the bullet case.
18 Q. Is that what you were told in the hospital?
19 A. It's not that I was told only. I was given the bullet case, to
20 take it home, and I eventually threw it away.
21 Q. There's one other thing I'd like to know. You said that you were
22 a nurse or an orderly and a driver. Where was it, in the military
23 hospital, at the time that you were mobilised?
24 A. No, I did not work in the military hospital.
25 Q. How did you come to know that the media representatives were
1 always in the military hospital?
2 A. Because my sister and my father-in-law worked in the military
3 hospital. I know that always at the Kosevo Military Hospital
4 outside of the hospital, there were international news crews,
5 journalists, waiting to take statements.
6 Q. Were you in a position to follow the news over the media in
8 A. During the rare moments when we had electricity, yes.
9 Q. Were you informed of the shelling and sniping of the Grbavica
10 area by the BH army from the media? Did you ever hear anything of the
11 sort from the media?
12 A. No, I did not have occasion to. We only listened to the local
14 Q. You will agree with me that the local media did not want to
15 report on possible actions taken against civilians on the other side.
16 A. It's quite possible, but I don't know.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
21 Madam Carter, any re-examination?
22 MS. CARTER: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Judge? Judge?
25 Mr. Gicevic, this brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank
1 you very much for coming to testify. You are now excused. You may go
2 home. You may stand down. And please travel well back home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter?
7 MR. SAXON: Excuse me, Your Honour, that concludes the
8 Prosecution's witnesses for today.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
10 Do you want to be excused, Madam Carter?
11 MS. CARTER: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused. Thank you very much.
13 The Trial Chamber is now going to give -- may the Chamber please
14 move into private session.
15 [Private session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 This is now an oral order concerning the motions by the
19 Prosecution with respect to Mr. Martin Bell and Mr. John Wilson.
20 On the 10th of October, 2008, and on the 13th of October, 2008
21 the Prosecution filed respectively a motion for leave to lead evidence of
22 unscheduled incidents from Witness Martin Bell, with annexes, and a
23 motion for leave to lead evidence of unscheduled incidents from Witness
24 Brigadier General John Wilson. The Defence filed its two responses to
25 the motions on the 21st of October, 2008.
1 The Prosecution motions were filed pursuant to the Rule 73 bis
2 decision of 15th May 2007
3 leave of the Trial Chamber to lead evidence of unscheduled incidents upon
4 a showing that such evidence is essential to prove an important aspect of
5 the case at least four weeks prior to the scheduled testimony.
6 The Trial Chamber recalls that this time limit was not respected
7 by the Prosecution. The Trial Chamber notes that the Defence has agreed
8 not to raise objection on this ground for these two instances; however,
9 the Trial Chamber further notes that this fact does not prevent the Trial
10 Chamber from dismissing the motions on this ground.
11 Both motions were filed less than three weeks prior to the
12 scheduled testimony. This is in direct violation of paragraph 17 of Rule
13 73 bis decision of 15th May 2007
14 that "the Prosecution must file a motion requesting the leave of the
15 Trial Chamber to lead such evidence at least four weeks in advance of the
16 scheduled testimony."
17 The Trial Chamber notes the Prosecution's arguments in its oral
18 reply of today regarding the difficulties faced in scheduling the witness
19 order. The Trial Chamber, however, finds that scheduling difficulties
20 are irrelevant when it comes to compliance with an order of the Pre-Trial
21 or Trial Chamber. It would have been appropriate for the Prosecution to
22 at least file a notice that it intended to lead evidence of unscheduled
23 incidents on four weeks -- four weeks in advance, considering that in the
24 Prosecution's own admission, it was aware of the scope of these witness
25 testimonies since at least February 2007, when the 65 ter summaries were
2 The Trial Chamber notes the Prosecution has not provided any good
3 cause or, in fact, any explanation at all for this violation of the
4 Pre-Trial Chamber's order. The Trial Chamber therefore denies the
5 Prosecution motion to lead the proposed evidence of Mr. Bell and
6 Mr. Wilson on unscheduled incidents.
7 That concludes the oral decision.
8 Are there any housekeeping matters that any of the parties would
9 like to raise before we take an adjournment? Mr. Saxon? Mr. Lukic?
10 My schedule of the trial still says that we are going into
11 Courtroom III tomorrow. Does anybody have an updated schedule that says
12 we are coming to Courtroom II?
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May the Chamber please move
15 into open session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 The matter stands adjourned to tomorrow, Courtroom II, 9.00 in
20 the morning. Court adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.55 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
23 October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.