Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1437

 1                           Thursday, 13 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Could we have appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Mr. Perisic.  Good morning, Your

15     Honours.  Dan Saxon for the Prosecution with Ms. Bronagh McKenna and

16     Ms. Carmela Javier.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             And for the Defence?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

20     everybody else in these proceedings.  Mr. Perisic will be represented

21     today by Tina Drolec, Milos Androvic, Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Daniela

22     Tasic, and Novak Lukic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

24             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

25             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, the Prosecution calls

Page 1438

 1     Mr. Morten Torkildsen.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, while we are waiting, early this

 4     morning I noticed another mistake that I had made in converting Milosevic

 5     65 ter numbers to Perisic 65 ter numbers, and it's simply that at

 6     paragraph 66, page 23 of the report, there's a reference to 65 ter number

 7     6550.  It should say "65 ter number 6524."

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

10             Good morning, sir.

11             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please take the -- make the

13     declaration.

14             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, sir.  You may now be seated.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19             MR. SAXON:  Thank you.

20                           WITNESS:  MORTEN TORKILDSEN

21                           Examination by Mr. Saxon:

22        Q.   Sir, before we begin, both you and I speak the English language,

23     and we need just to be careful that we don't make life too difficult for

24     the interpreters, and so I'd ask you to please try to perhaps pause

25     between question and answer to give the interpreters a moment to catch up

Page 1439

 1     with us.  If we don't do that, they will inform us.

 2             Is your name Morten Torkildsen?

 3        A.   That is correct, yes.

 4        Q.   And are you a citizen of Norway?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Could we please see 65 ter number 9188, which will be

 7     the curriculum vitae of Mr. Torkildsen.

 8             Your Honours, I'm not seeing any evidence on my screen.  I don't

 9     know if it's only my problem or it's -- here it comes.  Thank you very

10     much.

11        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, this is a copy of your curriculum vitae.

12             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the second page, please, and maybe if

13     we can make that a little bit bigger.

14        Q.   Your education was first a bachelor of science in management

15     sciences at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and

16     Technology?

17        A.   That is correct, yes.

18        Q.   And subsequently did you receive a master's degree?

19        A.   Yes, at the City University Business School.

20        Q.   And what was the focus of your master's degree?

21        A.   Most of the focus of my master's degree was finance.

22        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Torkildsen, what is your profession?

23        A.   I'm a financial investigator, or by education I'm educated with

24     two business degrees, but I've worked most of my working life as a

25     financial investigator.  Today I'm a partner in a law firm, being in

Page 1440

 1     charge of the financial investigations that we conduct.

 2        Q.   And briefly, what does a financial investigator do?

 3        A.   Basically he tries to identify the facts regarding certain

 4     allegations, and I -- well, in financial investigation, it's got very

 5     much to do with the documents, not as much as hearing witnesses.  I would

 6     say that financial cases and investigations of those are 95 per cent

 7     based on what's contained within documents.

 8        Q.   And when you say that a financial investigator tries to identify

 9     the facts regarding certain allegations, can you be a little bit more

10     specific?  What kind of allegations do you work on?

11        A.   Typically I work on allegations of fraud, corruption, and all

12     kinds of financial irregularities.

13        Q.   And how long have you been doing this work?

14        A.   I've been doing that for almost my whole working career, at least

15     for the last 15 years.

16        Q.   Now, you've done this work in Norway; is that right?

17        A.   That is correct, but --

18        Q.   Excuse me.

19             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to page 1 -- back to page 1 of the

20     curriculum, please.

21        Q.   Just briefly, what kind of financial investigations have you done

22     within Norway?

23        A.   Well, it's not exactly like I conducted all of my investigations

24     within Norway.

25        Q.   No, I know that, I'm speaking about within Norway right now.

Page 1441

 1        A.   I've done a lot of investigation into allegations of corruption

 2     and also a lot of kinds of fraud cases.  I've been investigating

 3     corruption within the oil sector, the public sector in general, and

 4     typically also into the industry of building and construction.

 5        Q.   Now, have you only done this kind of work, financial

 6     investigations, in Norway?

 7        A.   No.  Even most of my Norwegian cases had an international

 8     dimension.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   So one of the -- I'll give you one example, and that is one of

11     the investigations I had out from Norway that involved actually

12     conducting investigations in about 15 countries, both in Europe and in

13     the US at that time.

14        Q.   Okay.  At some point in your career, did you work for the Office

15     of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And briefly can you describe when that was and what you did.

18        A.   That was exactly from the 2nd of January, 2001, until sometime in

19     August 2003.  I was a financial investigator, working for the Office of

20     the Prosecutor.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender 65

23     ter 9188.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to having this

Page 1442

 1     CV of Mr. Torkildsen be admitted into evidence for one reason:  This is

 2     his present CV, whereas he compiled his report in 2002 and then he

 3     attached the CV with that work of his which was linked to the period when

 4     he did his work.  So what's relevant for us is whether, when he did the

 5     work, whether he had the necessary qualifications and not to assess his

 6     qualifications as of today in this present.

 7             Well, at least until I complete my cross-examination, I'd like

 8     this to be introduced and marked for identification only, until I

 9     complete my cross-examination, and then you can decide.  Because attached

10     to his report, we have received a CV from the period when he wrote it,

11     when he did the work, which, in fact, was six years ago.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand this last part, Mr. Lukic.  You

13     said:  "Because attached to his report we have received a CV from the

14     period when he wrote it, when he did the work, which, in fact, was six

15     years ago."  What does that sentence mean?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, perhaps I wasn't precise enough.

17     The time that the paper was handed over, we received his CV as of then,

18     which was rounded off and concluded with 2002, incorporated activities he

19     was engaged in up until 2002 when he compiled the paper and did the work

20     on it.  So we cannot asses his competency on the basis of the experience

21     he gained afterwards, post-2002, and that is provided in his present CV.

22             Now, if the Prosecutor wants to tender into evidence his CV, he

23     had a document -- he has a document attached to the paper dated 2002, his

24     2002 CV.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, when you look at this document that is on the

Page 1443

 1     screen now, which is the curriculum vitae of the witness, are you not

 2     able to see from that document what his qualifications and experience

 3     were as of 2002?  Because, I mean, it gives his history from the time he

 4     qualified to date.  And if you want to know what his competencies were in

 5     2002, all you have to do is you look at from birth to 2002 in the current

 6     CV.  He doesn't have to give you a CV of 2002.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But I think, Your Honour, that what

 8     we need with respect to assessing his qualifications is the CV that he

 9     gave then.  That's the important one.  I don't see why we should have a

10     new CV if we've already got one from the previous period, because that's

11     the relevant one.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You do have that one?  Okay.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We were provided it by the

14     Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you do have one, that one, is your objection

16     against the admission of the CV -- what are you asking for admission of?

17             MR. SAXON:  I had asked for admission of the CV that you see on

18     your screen --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

20             MR. SAXON:  -- which is the most current curriculum vitae of the

21     witness, Your Honour.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I see that the report that -- okay.  We

24     haven't been shown the report, but the report that has been handed over

25     to the Trial Chamber is dated the 10th of October, 2008 --

Page 1444

 1             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I'm -- well, I'm sorry, I don't mean to

 2     interrupt.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Say what you want to say, sir.

 4             MR. SAXON:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 5             However, the 10th of October, 2008 report substantively is

 6     exactly the same as the November 2002 report.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  Thank you very much.  Thank you very

 8     much for that.

 9             What I'm trying to say to you, Mr. Lukic, is if you look at the

10     2002 CV that you have, which we don't have, is it -- up to -- is this CV

11     that's on the screen up to 2002, is it not the same as that one that you

12     have?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Let me just

14     explain.  Yes, that's right, they are.

15             When you made your ruling on the adoption or calling

16     Mr. Torkildsen to come into court, let me remind you, when you made that

17     decision we had an objection with regard to some of his qualifications,

18     and then you were focusing on that CV of his which was attached to his

19     paper of 2002.

20             Now, what I'd like to say is this:  That CV, with respect to his

21     activities up until 2002, in the period stipulated where he worked, what

22     he did, and so on, it stipulates that in that previous CV, whereas this

23     report we have the activities listed and not the periods.  I think that

24     the previous CV is far more useful as far as we're concerned because this

25     present one incorporates details which we are not focusing on in the

Page 1445

 1     examination of this witness here today.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure whether that's a legal ground

 3     for objection, Mr. Lukic, because what I hear you saying in that last

 4     sentence is that you're now saying you want to give legal advice to the

 5     Prosecution on how they must conduct their trial; that they must use the

 6     2002 CV instead of the current CV.  They've chosen to use the CV, and I

 7     don't -- I don't think it is for the Trial Chamber to say, No, don't use

 8     this one; use the 2002.  In their own wisdom, they decided this is the CV

 9     they want to use.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, it's up to them to

11     decide how they're going to present their case.  So I'll leave all these

12     matters and have them cleared up during the cross-examination.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think -- I was just going to suggest that,

14     because if you say there are discrepancies between the 2002 CV and this

15     CV, those are matters for cross-examination.

16             Do you have any response to the objection, sir?

17             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then 65 ter 9188 is admitted into evidence.  May

19     it please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P309, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  If we could now please bring up 65 ter number 6520.01

24     on the screen, which will be the report of Mr. Torkildsen, with the date

25     of 10 October of this year.

Page 1446

 1        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, this is the first page of your report.

 2             MR. SAXON:  Can we go to the next page, please.

 3        Q.   The next page, in Roman numeral I, it says:  "Outline of Task."

 4     Can you briefly describe to the Chamber, what were you asked to do?

 5        A.   Just to give a bit of background on that, and that is when I

 6     arrived at the Office of the Prosecutor in January 2001, the OTP as such,

 7     had collected documents for a period of close to eight years, and it was

 8     an enormous amount of documents contained within the evidence system of

 9     the OTP.  And I was basically tasked to go through -- or actually, try to

10     identify documents contained within the electronic evidence system of the

11     OTP in order to try and determine whether there were any documents within

12     that collection that could say anything about how the Serb-controlled

13     districts in Croatia and Bosnia were financed by institutions allegedly

14     controlled by Slobodan Milosevic.

15        Q.   Okay.  And then, as you progressed in that, at some point were

16     you given a task to do?

17        A.   Yes.  Again, as I said, my tasking was to try and identify the

18     relevant documents talking about finance, and this was, of course, a huge

19     task, so I used language personnel in order to assist me.  And we did

20     searchs in the electronic evidence system --

21        Q.   I'm sorry.  Maybe my question wasn't clear because I think now

22     you're really going into your methodology.

23             Just with respect to this report, what were you asked to do?

24     What were you asked to produce?

25        A.   I was asked to produce financial evidence, if any, on how the

Page 1447

 1     Serb-controlled districts in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was

 2     financed.

 3        Q.   Now, going back to methodology, which you describe briefly in

 4     paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 of your report, you mentioned that you conducted

 5     electronic searches.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And how did you conduct those searches?

 8        A.   Typically we were searching on specific key words, like

 9     "finance," "banking," "financial transfers," et cetera.  And of course I

10     was also provided with hard copies of quite a few documents.  I mean,

11     other members of the OTP had already been through parts of these large

12     collections and also identified documents that I had to consider whether

13     to be of relevance or not.

14        Q.   Okay.  And at some point did you begin to analyse these documents

15     in depth?

16        A.   Yes.  That was sort of the second stage of this.  I was trying to

17     see whether there were any sort of pattern regarding how the financing

18     took place.  And in order to determine that, you had to sort of look at

19     how documents relate to each other to be able to understand the broader

20     picture of this.

21        Q.   Okay.  And after you reviewed documents, either identified

22     through electronic searches or hard-copy documents, in the OTP's

23     possession, did you -- at some point did you select documents to use as

24     references in your report?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 1448

 1        Q.   And if I can just interrupt, how did you make this kind of

 2     selection?

 3        A.   Well, I sort of selected the documents that I thought was the

 4     most telling in terms of showing the pattern of the financial assistance

 5     that took place.

 6        Q.   All right.  I'd like to discuss a couple of translation issues,

 7     if I may, Mr. Torkildsen.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Can we move, please, to page 22 of this report in the

 9     English version and pages 20 -- page 20 in the B/C/S version.

10        Q.   And if I can just go back to your methodology for a moment.  The

11     documents that you selected, were they all strictly financial documents

12     or were there other kinds of documents as well?

13        A.   No.  They were typically -- well, most of them were official

14     documents, typically military documents, but contained those -- within

15     those military documents, there were information regarding finance.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask.  Military documents of which

18     army?

19             THE WITNESS:  Of various armies.  It could be the documents

20     regarding the VRS.  It was documents regarding the RSK army, documents

21     originating from units within the Territorial Defence.  There were

22     documents --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Territorial Defence of?

24             THE WITNESS:  Of the Serb-controlled districts in Croatia.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that all?

Page 1449

 1             THE WITNESS:  No.  Also, documents regarding the JNA and later

 2     also the VJ.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. SAXON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, if you can turn your attention to paragraph 62 of

 6     your report --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   -- you see here you are referring to a document.  It's

 9     Prosecution 65 ter number 6530, a decision from the Government of the

10     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the 14th of May, 1992.  And

11     you quote that document; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And there's a quote that you see there.  It's one sentence long.

14     And was that quote based on the English translation that you had

15     available at the time?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. SAXON:  Can we please call up 65 ter 6530, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to do with 65 ter 20.01.

20             MR. SAXON:  At this time could this report be marked for

21     identification.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 6520.01 is marked for identification.  May

23     it please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P310, marked for

25     identification, Your Honours.

Page 1450

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             What are you now calling, sir?

 3             MR. SAXON:  I'm calling up 65 ter 6530.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. SAXON:  And in the B/C/S version, if we could please move two

 6     pages further in, please, and the same with the English version.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that it's page 12 in the

 9     B/C/S, at least I think it is.

10             MR. SAXON:  There it is in the English.  Yes, and if we could

11     turn to page 12 of the B/C/S.  I'm grateful to Mr. Lukic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. SAXON:  There will be -- in the B/C/S there will be a number

14     187, as there is in the English version.  Yes, that's now correct.

15        Q.   And just focusing on the English version for now, it is a

16     decision published in the "Official Gazette of the Serbian People" on the

17     8th of June, 1992.  Is this the document that you quoted, Mr. Torkildsen,

18     at paragraph 62?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   This decision?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if you take a look at Article 1 --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   -- the document is entitled "Decision on the Use of Funds from

25     Primary Issue."  If you take a look at the first line of Article 1 --

Page 1451

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- and the very end of Article 2, you will notice that there are

 3     slight changes in the word order in the English in this most recent

 4     English translation.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do these changes in any way affect your conclusions, the

 7     conclusions of your report?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay, thank you.

10             MR. SAXON:  We could leave that document now, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you don't want to do anything with it?

12             MR. SAXON:  Well, probably at this time, for the record, we

13     should MFI it, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it be so MFIed and given an exhibit number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P311, MFI, marked for

16     identification, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. SAXON:  All right.  And just one more translation issue.  If

19     we could go back to Mr. Torkildsen's report, which is MFI 310, and if we

20     could turn to page 43 in the English version and page 41 of the B/C/S

21     version, we'll focus on paragraph 118.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, if you look at paragraph 118, you see that you

23     quote another document.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the document that you refer to is 65 ter 530.

Page 1452

 1     Mr. Torkildsen, at the time that you wrote your report and inserted these

 2     quotations, did you believe that you were quoting from a verbatim English

 3     translation of the original document?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Two nights ago in my office, did you become aware that the

 6     translation that you used was not a verbatim English translation of the

 7     original?

 8        A.   That is correct, yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And if we could just, focusing on the first quote, which

10     says:  "From the beginning of the war, RS did not participate in

11     financing of professional army members."

12             MR. SAXON:  If I could ask Ms. Taseva's assistance again, could

13     we please go to 65 ter 532, page 45 at the bottom.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You want 532 or 523?

15             MR. SAXON:  532, Your Honour.  As I said yesterday, the reference

16     in the report to 523 was a typographical error by myself.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. SAXON:  Can we have the second English translation that is

19     attached to 65 ter 530, please, and if we could go to page 40 at the

20     bottom.

21             No.  I'm very sorry, Ms. Taseva, I believe the original

22     translation that you selected was the correct one.  We're looking for

23     0044 -- the ERN number 0044-7483, and I realise I'm breaking a rule by

24     quoting the ERN number.  Oh, yes, this is the correct page.  Thank you.

25     Can we focus on the bottom, please.  I'm sorry, page 40, please, of the

Page 1453

 1     English, and focus on the bottom, please.

 2        Q.   Here, Mr. Torkildsen --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, just before you ask the question, and I

 4     notice Mr. Lukic, but -- just so that I follow you, you said at page 16,

 5     line 9 that you were calling 65 ter 532.  At line 16, you said 530.  What

 6     do we have here?  Is it 530 or 532?

 7             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I sincerely apologise.  It is 65 -- it

 8     should be 530.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It should be 530.

10             MR. SAXON:  Wait.  I'm sorry, Your Honour, it's 532, and that is

11     what we have on our screen.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was waiting for Colleague Saxon to

15     find the page that he wished to find in English, but I can see that the

16     B/C/S page does not correspond to the English page.  So could we also

17     find the relevant page in B/C/S on the screen prior to any questions

18     being put.

19             MR. SAXON:  It should be page 33 in the B/C/S.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that it, Mr. Lukic?  Thank you.

21             Okay, Mr. Saxon.

22             MR. SAXON:

23        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you'll notice in the second to the last

24     paragraph, there is a sentence that says:

25             "Republika Srpska has not taken part in financing the

Page 1454

 1     professional members of the army except for providing housing for several

 2     commanding officers."

 3             This --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are you reading?

 5             MR. SAXON:  The third sentence of the penultimate paragraph, Your

 6     Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             MR. SAXON:

 9        Q.   So this is different from your first quotation at paragraph 118.

10     Do you agree, Mr. Torkildsen?

11        A.   Yes, I agree.

12        Q.   And does the verbatim translation change your conclusions in any

13     way?

14        A.   No.  The substance is the same.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. SAXON:  Could we please move back again to marked for

17     identification 310.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And this 532, you are not doing anything with it,

19     the document on the screen now?

20             MR. SAXON:  I don't think that's necessary.  I'm simply doing

21     this for the basis of comparison.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand.  But for purposes of the record, I

23     would like to know, is it being -- do you want it marked?  Are you not

24     tendering it?  What do you want to do?

25             MR. SAXON:  Could we tender, then, page 40 of the English, Your

Page 1455

 1     Honour, and page 33 of the B/C/S.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 40 and 33 of the B/C/S -- page 40 of the

 3     English and 33 of the B/C/S of 65 ter 532 are admitted.  And I say this

 4     is 65 ter 532 in the Milosevic case.  It's not on your exhibit list.

 5             MR. SAXON:  It is on our --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does this have a 65 ter number in your exhibit

 7     list?

 8             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is that 532.

10             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.  Thank you.

12             May it then be given an exhibit number, please.

13             MR. SAXON:  Before we move on, could the first page of the

14     document be included for context?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. SAXON:  The title page.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, Madam Registrar, could they be included.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 1 and 30 of the English and page 1 and 33 of

19     the B/C/S of 65 ter 532 will be Exhibit P312, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MR. SAXON:  And if we could move to page 37 -- excuse me, could

22     we move, please, to page 45 of the English and --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of what, now?  We're back at the report?

24             MR. SAXON:  All right.  Well, if we're back at the report, could

25     we please go to page 43 of the English and page 41 of the B/C/S.

Page 1456

 1        Q.   Again, if you look at -- if you look at paragraph 118 again, your

 2     second quote, Mr. Torkildsen, it talks about how:

 3             "From 20 May 1992 to 31 August 1994, 1700 civilians received

 4     salaries from the SRY budget.  From August 1994 these people have only

 5     been receiving allowance and no money has been paid to the pension fund.

 6     This is a task of the governments of SRJ and RS."

 7             MR. SAXON:  Could we please turn back to 65 ter 532, the prior

 8     translation that we were using, page 45 in the English version and page

 9     37 in the B/C/S version.  And if we could focus on the bottom of page 47.

10        Q.   Five lines from the bottom we see the following sentence:  "After

11     the departure of the former JNA, these persons, about 1700 of them, were

12     awarded the salaries of workers in our army --"

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, the status of workers?

14             MR. SAXON:  Excuse me.  "... were awarded the status of workers

15     in our army according to which they are entitled to all statutory powers

16     and treatment according to other workers in the --"

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "Accorded."

18             MR. SAXON:  "... and treatment accorded to other workers in

19     Republika Srpska.  From 20 May 1992 to 31 August 1994, they received

20     their salaries through the FRY budget, and after that date they ..."  Can

21     we turn to the top of the next page, please.  "... received only benefits

22     on which no contributions are paid.  This is a problem which must be

23     resolved at the level of the FRY and RS governments."

24        Q.   Have you been following me, Mr. Torkildsen?

25        A.   Yes, I have.

Page 1457

 1        Q.   You see that there's a difference here between this translation

 2     and what you quoted at paragraph 118?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Does the difference in translation change your conclusions in any

 5     way?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time if the first page of this

 8     document and page 45 and 46 of the English and 37 and 38 of the B/C/S be

 9     given an exhibit number.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what is this document?

11             MR. SAXON:  This, again, is 65 ter 532.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

13             MR. SAXON:  I think Ms. Taseva prefers that I add these pages to

14     the previous exhibit, if that is all right with the Trial Chamber.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think that would be preferable.  May they be

16     added to P312, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             MR. SAXON:  We can leave this exhibit now.

20        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, in normal times how are a country's expenses

21     normally financed?

22        A.   Normally a country is financed by taxes and that means taxation

23     of its citizens, normal income tax.  It would be taxes of businesses.  It

24     would be value-added tax and all other kinds of taxes.  That would be the

25     normal way of financing a country, at least in the long run.  And of

Page 1458

 1     course you also have in the short run, you can also borrow money, but you

 2     can't rely on that forever.

 3        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, up until the middle of 1991, how were the

 4     entities of the former Yugoslavia financed?

 5        A.   They were mostly financed by taxes, as any normal country or

 6     normal entity, to put it like that.

 7        Q.   At some point in 1991, did this begin to change?

 8        A.   Yes, it did, and it was very dramatic.  What happened in the

 9     second half of 1991 was that the SFRY, as such, started to be financed

10     through the use of primary emissions --

11        Q.   Okay, Mr. Torkildsen, I'm going to cut you off for a moment.

12             MR. SAXON:  Can we please see 65 ter 6531.  It's referred to in

13     paragraph 18 of the report.

14             We see this is a document called a "Proposal of Minimally Needed

15     Funds that Need to be Provided in the Budget of the Federation for the

16     Period July-September 1991."  It's dated Belgrade, 21 July, 1991.  Can we

17     turn to page 3 in both versions, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you cite to this document in paragraph 18 of your

19     report.  Can you describe what we see on the third page?

20        A.   Yes.  This is a proposal, then, on how to finance the SFRY budget

21     in the period July to September 1991, and it is described here what kind

22     of income they're relying on.

23             As I previously stated, a normal country is financed by taxes,

24     and as we can see here, customs and import tax is responsible for 37.3

25     per cent of the total financing of this budget.  And if you see further

Page 1459

 1     down there, there's actually stated here "Original Income," 42.4 per

 2     cent.

 3        Q.   What does that mean?

 4        A.   The term "original income" in this sense, and that's a term I've

 5     also seen in other documents, and that basically means the real income of

 6     a country, meaning its taxes.  But what is interesting to note here is

 7     that the term used below what is mentioned as original income, it is

 8     stated "NBJ/Yugoslav People's Bank," and that is the same institution

 9     that I have labeled and also that we can see from other documents as the

10     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  And it's stated here that they will provide

11     52.3 per cent of the total income to this budget.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interrupt you a little bit, sir.  In

13     explaining what "original income" is, you said it's taxes.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it's basically taxes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So that, in fact, we can quite safely say the 42.4

16     per cent of original taxes, together with the 37.3 per cent of customs

17     and import taxes, that's the same source of income.  It all comes from

18     taxes.  Therefore, taxes are contributing the sum of 42.4 and 37.3?

19             THE WITNESS:  Almost, Your Honour.

20             For instance, it is also mentioned here, incomes and organs and

21     organisations, and that would, for example, be the income from

22     publicly-owned businesses and the profit from that.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS:  But to a large extent, Your Honour, it's from

25     taxes.

Page 1460

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but my problem is, if taxes contribute the

 2     sum of 37.3 and 42.4 --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- from 100 per cent, there's very little for you

 5     left to have 52.3 per cent.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that is correct.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So that, in fact, are you -- are we saying, then,

 8     that the total contribution is actually beyond -- the total income is not

 9     100 per cent, it's 200 per cent, or whatever the figure is?  And how does

10     that work?

11             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.  It is actually also other types

12     of income, like I pointed out.  But most of the original income of a

13     country would be from taxes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But is it from -- from taxes for the current year,

15     or is it money brought forward from the previous year?

16             THE WITNESS:  This is a proposal, so this is what they are

17     planning for.  They are planning to receive taxes in the order of 37.3

18     per cent.  That is what they are assuming that they will get in taxes for

19     this period.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  But then you also say,

21     original income is also taxes.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, well --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I am mindful -- I am mindful of the fact that

24     there is a line drawn after other incomes --

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 1461

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- and if you say this is a completely different

 2     story from the one above the line, then I can follow you.  But if it is

 3     still the same thing, that line means nothing and original income is

 4     defined as taxes, then I have the problem that I've just raised.

 5             THE WITNESS:  If I can comment on that.  The thing is that the

 6     original income which is stated here of 42.4 per cent, that is the sum of

 7     what is mentioned above.  So if you add up all what is listed above

 8     there, you will reach the sum of 42.4 per cent.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That explains it.

10             MR. SAXON:

11        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you were mentioning you noted that 52.3 per cent

12     of the income came from the Yugoslav People's Bank, funds.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you describe really what type of income that was or funds

15     those were?

16        A.   Is it possible to take this document to the next page?

17        Q.   Please.  And where do you want to focus, Mr. Torkildsen?

18        A.   The last paragraph of that page where it is stated that:

19             "The missing amount would be covered from the funds of the

20     primary emission of the Yugoslav People's Bank and contributions by the

21     SR and SAP."

22        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, what does the term "primary emission" mean?

23        A.   That means printing of money.  What is stated here is that the

24     deficit in the budget should be made off by the National Bank of

25     Yugoslavia printing money in order to cover this budget deficit, cover

Page 1462

 1     the lack of original income.

 2             MR. SAXON:  At this point, Your Honour, I'd seek to tender this

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  My mic is not working.  That will be Exhibit

 7     P313, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. SAXON:

10        Q.   And in the course of your review of documents, Mr. Torkildsen,

11     beginning in 1992, did you become aware that the entities called the

12     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina were established?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And how were these new entities, if I can call them that,

15     financed?

16        A.   They were very much financed by primary emissions provided to

17     them by the National Bank of Yugoslavia in Belgrade.

18        Q.   And just so that the record is clear, sometimes in your report

19     you use the phrase "primary issue."  Are the two terms synonymous,

20     "primary issue" and "primary emission"?

21        A.   That is the same.  And also, sometimes in the budgets these are

22     described as credits coming from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Okay.  But when they talk about credits, they're talking about

24     these primary emissions, the printing of money.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1463

 1        Q.   When you say that the Republika Srpska and the Republic of

 2     Serbian Krajina were financed very much by primary emissions from the

 3     National Bank of Yugoslavia, in 1992 the National Bank, just so that the

 4     record is clear, was part of -- was an institution of whom?  What state?

 5        A.   It was an institution of the FRY.

 6        Q.   The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Can we please see 65 ter number 6531, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have just given 6531 an exhibit number, P313.

11             MR. SAXON:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I misspoke.  I was looking

12     at the wrong number.  Can we please see MFI 311.  And can we go to page

13     12 in the B/C/S version, and there we see the appropriate page in the

14     English version, and can we focus on the top half of the English version,

15     please, or enlarge the top half a bit.  It's a part of the "Official

16     Gazette of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina" from the 8th of

17     June, 1992, and it's a copy of a decision adopted on 14 May 1992 called

18     "The Decision on the Use of Funds from Primary Issue."

19        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you refer to this document at paragraphs 16, 17,

20     62, and 73 of your report.  What, if anything -- what do you take from

21     this document that was significant for your work?

22        A.   Well, the important article here is Article 1, where it is

23     actually stated regarding the use of the funds.  It is stated here that

24     the funds that the RS has received from the National Bank of Yugoslavia,

25     the "primary issues, shall be used in accordance with the decision of the

Page 1464

 1     National Bank of Yugoslavia ..." meaning that an entity of the FRY is

 2     deciding how the RS should use the money, the primary issue that they

 3     have received.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

 6     please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I would also like to, if I can please also comment

 8     on Article 4.

 9             MR. SAXON:

10        Q.   Very well.

11        A.   It is stated in this article that in the end here, "with a

12     negative balance to be settled once the National Bank of the Serbian

13     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is founded and starts operating."  By this

14     you can read that this is just a temporary arrangement that's going to be

15     settled later on.  But from other documents I have seen, this was not the

16     case.  But that will be explained from other documents.

17             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document

18     into evidence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought this is MFI -- oh, you're now tendering

20     the document.  I'm sorry.  Exhibit 311, marked for identification, is now

21     being tendered for admission.  It is admitted into evidence.  It will be

22     given an exhibit number, P311.  Is that it?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. SAXON:  May we please leave this document and bring up 65 ter

Page 1465

 1     6539.

 2        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, this is a document that you referred to at

 3     paragraphs 25 and 76 of your report.  It's a decision from the 8th of

 4     July, 1992, by the Government of the Republika Srpska to take a loan from

 5     the National Bank of the Republika Srpska.  Do you see that in the

 6     "Decision on Debiting of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina with

 7     the National Bank of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina"?

 8     Are you following me?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What, if anything, did you take that was significant from this

11     document?

12        A.   The significance here being, as it's stated in Article 1 here, it

13     is stated that due to the inadequate incoming assets that make up the

14     original revenues, and then we are back to the previous proposal that I

15     tried to explain.  They are stating here that they do have inadequate

16     resources regarding original income --

17        Q.   Can I interrupt you here.  When you use the pronoun "they," who

18     is "they"?

19        A.   That means Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Okay, continue.

21        A.   That they do not have the original income.  They do not have the

22     taxes to make up the revenue side of the budget.  So instead they are

23     taking up a loan from the National Bank, here of Republika Srpska, in

24     order to finance their activities.

25        Q.   And at this point, then, by July, then the National Bank of the

Page 1466

 1     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is functioning.

 2        A.   Well, whether it's functioning or not, that I can't state.  But

 3     at least it has been established.  It was established in May 1992.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Can I just make one more comment on this?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, do you want to wait for the comment,

 9     Mr. Lukic?  Thank you.

10             Yes, you may proceed.

11             THE WITNESS:  And it is mentioned here that this is actually a

12     loan and that it shall be returned in ten equal annual installments, due

13     on 15/12 each year, and that it should be repaid, then, in full by 15

14     December 1998, so it is basically a loan.

15             But what happened in the Republika Srpska, the FRY and the RSK

16     at -- during this time period was that it was hyperinflation, meaning

17     that the nominal value of money at one point in time was not worth the

18     same in two years -- two years later, meaning that if you took up a loan

19     today and if you're going to repay it five years later, that means that

20     you actually had to use no real money in order to pay it back because of

21     the hyperinflation.  You had hyperinflation at that time, particularly in

22     1993, of several thousand per cent during just one year, meaning that you

23     repaid virtually nothing.

24             MR. SAXON:

25        Q.   There is also in the upper right-hand corner a note saying:

Page 1467

 1     "Payments to be adjusted with the needs of the army."  Did you take

 2     anything of significance from that?

 3        A.   Because most of the budgets of the RS was actually going to cover

 4     the needs of the VRS.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would still seek to tender this.  I

 6     believe my colleague has something to say about it.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, at this point in time, Your

 9     Honours, I challenge this and challenge the authenticity and the

10     relevance of this document, both.  And I'd like to state my arguments

11     after the cross-examination of this witness, and could we have the MFI

12     marking of this document now.  But for your information, this is a

13     document without a date, without a stamp, and without any signature, so

14     may it just be marked for identification at this stage.  The date column

15     is empty and the second page of the original document is empty.  With

16     respect to the date, there's a place for the signature.  But I'd like to

17     leave those arguments for later, after I've conducted my

18     cross-examination.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, as you respond, maybe you might also

20     address the question of the handwritten markings on the B/C/S version

21     which are absent, or maybe they are typed on the English side, and if you

22     can sort of tell us what they mean.

23             MR. SAXON:  They are -- this was the passage that I referred to a

24     few moments ago, Your Honour.  Up at the top right-hand corner in

25     handwriting it says:  "Minister Subotic.  Payments to be adjusted with

Page 1468

 1     the needs of the army."

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             MR. SAXON:  And then we see a date there, and it's signed by

 4     Minister Subotic.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  That's the handwritten thing.

 6             Now, your colleague on the right side suggests that -- objects to

 7     the admission of this document at this point and said it could be MFIed.

 8     What's your response to that?

 9             MR. SAXON:  Well, Your Honour, I believe the document is

10     relevant -- on its face, the document is relevant, Your Honours, because

11     again it shows how now the Republika Srpska had to create its financing

12     in order to --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but that does not -- for relevance, yes.

14             MR. SAXON:  I'll move on, Your Honour.  Which is certainly

15     relevant to Mr. Torkildsen's work.

16             The handwritten note, Your Honour, at the top with the date, in

17     the Prosecution's submission --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have explained that.  Thank you so much.  You

19     have explained the handwritten note.  Your learned friend talks of lack

20     of date of the document, and I want to believe that you are saying that

21     the date that we see on the document is the date of the handwritten

22     remarks.  But your friend says there's no date of the document, there's

23     no signature there for -- he's challenging authenticity of the document,

24     he will argue later.  He suggests that the document be MFIed.  What is

25     your response to that?

Page 1469

 1             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, in the Trial Chamber's guidelines, the

 2     Trial Chamber tells us that the lack of a signature and the lack of a

 3     stamp or a seal does not by itself mandate the exclusion of a document.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your learned friend doesn't ask for exclusion.  He

 5     says MFI.

 6             MR. SAXON:  Well, I appreciate that, Your Honour.  The

 7     Prosecution is willing to have it MFIed if that is the proper --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  6539 is -- may it please be

 9     marked for identification and be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P314, marked for

11     identification, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I see the time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

15             MR. SAXON:  Shall we take the first break now?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If it is convenient for you.

17             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take the break and come back at a quarter to

19     11.00.  Court adjourned.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

23             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Can we please see Prosecution 65 ter number 6526.  Can we go to

25     the next page in English, please.

Page 1470

 1        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you cite to this document several times in your

 2     report, paragraphs 25, 35, 36, 39, 43 to 46, 50, 62, 73, and 87.  It's

 3     actually a series of documents, but we'll stick with the first one.  This

 4     is a report.  It says:  "National Bank of Yugoslavia, Strictly

 5     Confidential."  And it reads that:

 6              "The management of the National Bank of Yugoslavia ..." this is

 7     the very first paragraph, " ... assigned Milivoj Miletic to analyse and

 8     review the operations of the National Bank of Republika Srpska in terms

 9     of the elements to implement the Monetary Policy Programme in the Federal

10     Republic of Yugoslavia, Republika Srpska, and the Republic of Serbian

11     Krajina."

12             And then in the next paragraph it explains that Mr. Miletic

13     visited the National Bank of Republika Srpska between 4 and 8 April,

14     1994.  And after analysing and reviewing the operations of the National

15     Bank of Republika Srpska, he submits this report."

16             MR. SAXON:  If we can go to the next page, please, of the

17     exhibit, in both versions.

18        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, there is a large paragraph in the middle of this

19     page, beginning with the phrase "The first phase of the operations ..."

20     Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I'm going to direct you to this paragraph and more precisely to

23     the middle of the paragraph, it's actually starting at the second full

24     sentence:

25             "This was a time when certain institutions of Republika Srpska

Page 1471

 1     were formed, including the National Bank.  In such circumstances it was

 2     normal to issue primary money on the basis of previous experience, coming

 3     primarily from the National Bank of Yugoslavia."

 4             Is there anything that you take from this paragraph and what I've

 5     just read to you that you find significant for your report?

 6        A.   Yes.  This document corroborates what I have said and stated

 7     previously regarding that the National Bank of Yugoslavia was printing

 8     money in order to, as we have seen from the other documents, in order to

 9     finance budget deficits.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As I understand it, this money was being printed

11     by the Bank of Yugoslavia for the benefit of the Bank of Republika

12     Srpska.  It is being passed on to that bank.

13             THE WITNESS:  That is correct, yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  What I'm trying to say is that at this

15     point -- you said it was to finance budget deficits.  Thank you.

16             MR. SAXON:  And if we could --

17             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, can I just -- since that is actually

18     stated in the last part of this paragraph, where it is stated that --

19     just let me read that out.

20             "About 14.3 per cent of these credits," the primary issues this

21     means, "or 11.1 billion dinars were given through the banks, while the

22     remaining 85.7 per cent or 67.7 billion dinars were given for the budget

23     of Republika Srpska."

24             So not all of the primary issues were given to the budget, but

25     most of it was given to the budget.  Thank you.

Page 1472

 1             MR. SAXON:  And there is another document that is part of 65 ter

 2     6526.  If we could please go to page 13 in the English version and page

 3     11 in the B/C/S version.

 4        Q.   This is an Official Note of a meeting between the governors of

 5     the National Bank of Yugoslavia, Republika Srpska, and Republika Srpska

 6     Krajina, held on the premises of the National Bank of Yugoslavia in

 7     Belgrade on 12 May 1994.

 8             And if you can direct your attention, Mr. Torkildsen, to about

 9     the middle of the page where it says:  "It was concluded at the meeting

10     that ..."  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if you could then direct your attention to number 6.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It says:  "The National Bank of Republika Srpska and the National

15     Bank of Republika Srpska Krajina operate as main branch offices of the

16     National Bank of Yugoslavia and are solely dependent on its authority."

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then in the following subparagraph, 7:

19             "It is the National Bank of Yugoslavia that has exclusive

20     authority over the operating of the National Bank of Republika Srpska,

21     the National Bank of Republika Srpska Krajina, and the commercial banks

22     from Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina."

23             Is there anything in subparagraph 6 and 7 that you found

24     significant?

25        A.   Well, actually, these two paragraphs speak for themselves.  It

Page 1473

 1     states that the National Bank of Yugoslavia has got the control and

 2     directs the operations of the National Bank of Republika Srpska and the

 3     National Bank of Republika Srpska Krajina.

 4        Q.   And how do these two conclusions, if I may, fit or not with your

 5     report and your conclusions?

 6        A.   They fit perfectly.  This is -- this describes in a short way

 7     what also the other documents point out.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender as a single

 9     exhibit pages 1 through 13 in the English version and page 1 through 12

10     of the B/C/S version.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Pages 1 to -- yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to stress once

13     again, or rather I want to object to a portion of this document.  The

14     authenticity is what I'm objecting to.  The first part of the document

15     regarding Mr. Miletic's report, I'm not challenging authenticity there.

16     But the second part of the document, which is the Official Note that

17     we've just been talking about and heard testimony about, I'm challenging

18     the authenticity of that for a number of reasons, one of which is the

19     document has no signature or stamp.

20             But what is more troubling, as far as I'm concerned and that

21     leads me to doubt the authenticity of this document is the following:

22     The fact that it is part of this report and attached to Mr. Miletic's

23     report and the date of the official report is after the report itself.

24     It's a later date.  So you can see that the Official Note about that

25     particular meeting was compiled on the 12th of May, 1994, whereas

Page 1474

 1     Mr. Miletic's report is dated -- well, the date is after the control,

 2     from the period from the 6th to the 8th of April, 1994.

 3             And I have to stress another point that is also troubling with

 4     respect to this Official Note.  It's another document, a 65 ter

 5     Prosecution document, which -- this is 65 ter 6557, is the document

 6     number.  I don't know if Mr. Saxon wants to tender that document, too.

 7     But anyway, it has the identical contents.  Looking at the contents of

 8     that document, of this Official Note, it's the same but written in quite

 9     a different form, using different language.  And I'm sure you know that

10     there was the Ljkavian and Ekavinan dialects on the territory of the

11     former Yugoslavia that were used.  And the document is likewise not

12     signed.

13             If possible, at this stage, I'd like this to be given an MFI

14     number so that I can cross-examine the witness and you can determine the

15     authenticity of this document.  But I have no objections to be made with

16     respect to Mr. Miletic's report being admitted into evidence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before I ask Mr. Saxon to respond, if you can

18     just clear a sentence that you mention here at page 37, lines -- starting

19     from line 15.  You say:

20             "So you can see that the Official Note of that particular meeting

21     was compiled on the 12th of May, 1994, whereas Mr. Miletic's report is

22     dated -- well, the date is after the control, from the period of the 6th

23     to the 8th of April, 1994."

24             I'm not quite sure by what is meant "after the control," if that

25     is what you said, sir.

Page 1475

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This 65 ter document has 40 pages,

 2     Your Honour, the entire document.  First of all, we have the report on

 3     that control by Mr. Miletic.  That's the first part of the document.  And

 4     then we have six attachments, supplements.  And it's a 65 ter document.

 5             One of those supplements is this Official Note, and the date at

 6     which the meeting that the Official Note refers to is later than the

 7     report itself, which leads me to doubt the authenticity of the document

 8     and raises a number of questions in my mind, because logically if you are

 9     providing a report, then you're providing supplementary documents

10     following the period before the report, before it's written, not the

11     subsequent period and after the report.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

13             Mr. Saxon.

14             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution is not submitting

15     that -- if I can step back for a moment.  Pages 1 through 13 of the

16     English -- excuse me, I believe 1 through -- the first document in 65 ter

17     6526 is the report of Mr. Miletic about the work that he did in April of

18     1994.

19             65 ter 6526 contains a series of documents, Your Honour, and it

20     is not the Prosecution's position that the following documents were part

21     of Mr. Miletic's report.  Certainly there's no connection -- the

22     documents do not speak to each other.  The Official Note of the meeting

23     between the governors of the National Banks, which is the document which

24     Mr. Lukic would like to have MFIed, it's describing a separate event.

25     Mr. Miletic is describing the work that he did and the analysis that he

Page 1476

 1     made.  This Official Note is simply a different event.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let's see if you and your learned friend

 3     can be brought onto the same wavelength.

 4             Are you saying the note is not an attachment attached by

 5     Mr. Miletic?  It's an attachment attached by the Prosecution, just

 6     collecting unrelated documents and putting them together perhaps because

 7     they are talking about the same subject, maybe?

 8             MR. SAXON:  It was put together this way because this is how the

 9     Prosecution received this particular -- this particular series of

10     documents.  It received them together so we kept them together.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me repeat my question slightly differently

12     worded.  Is the note -- does the note not form part of attachments of the

13     report by Mr. Miletic after his investigations?  Because I suspect this

14     is the position that Mr. Lukic is taking, and I understand you to be

15     saying these documents are unrelated.  Therefore, if they are unrelated,

16     it doesn't form part of Mr. Miletic's report.

17             MR. SAXON:  I take your point, Your Honour.  I'm simply saying

18     that the Prosecution simply does not know whether Mr. Miletic attached

19     the Official Note to his report or not.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             MR. SAXON:  I simply -- to be honest, I simply can't tell you

22     that.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But the Prosecution is seeking to tender

24     Mr. Miletic's report with the note as an attachment?

25             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

Page 1477

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So you are not tendering the note.

 2             MR. SAXON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I'm very sorry.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 4             MR. SAXON:  This 65 ter number is 40 pages long, and obviously I

 5     don't want to give the Chamber 40 additional pages to read.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 7             MR. SAXON:  It was these two pieces that the Prosecution felt

 8     were --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine, fine, fine.  Do the 40 pages of the document

10     you want to tender, include the note.

11             MR. SAXON:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Mr. Lukic's objection is that tendering

13     them in that form, he is given the impression that all those documents

14     are part and parcel of the report by Mr. Miletic, and he says he finds

15     this strange because the report was drafted around April and now an

16     attachment to this report is dated May, 12th of May, long after the

17     report has been drawn.  This is the basis on which he is objecting.

18             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And unless you are able to say to us that the note

20     is not part of Mr. Miletic's report, then Mr. Lukic's objection has

21     substance.

22             MR. SAXON:  I take your point, and I am not able -- I am not able

23     to say that the note is not part of the report.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  He is then saying -- he suggests that we

25     MFI rather than admit at this stage, until this problem is resolved.

Page 1478

 1             MR. SAXON:  No objection at this stage.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             65 ter 6526, pages 1 to 13 in the English and I think 1 to 12 in

 4     the B/C/S are marked for identification --

 5             MR. SAXON:  Oh, I'm very sorry, Your Honour.  My learned

 6     colleague did not object to the admission of Mr. Miletic's report.  That

 7     is what he told us.  His only objection is to the admission of the

 8     Official Note.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies to you.  Pages 1 to 13 of the 65 ter

10     6526, together with the note, I don't know how -- what is your 65 ter

11     number of the note?  It is part of that whole thing?

12             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are now back-pedaling.  You want an

14     admission to MFI the entire 40 pages?

15             MR. SAXON:  Absolutely not, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to be MFIed?

17             MR. SAXON:  The report of Mr. Miletic --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  In its entirety?

19             MR. SAXON:  -- which is the first ten pages in English and the

20     first nine pages in B/C/S.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what you're tendering?

22             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not the note.

24             MR. SAXON:  Correct.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 1479

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Since I have dealt with these documents in detail

 5     and I've followed your arguments, and I know the answer to this question,

 6     at least from --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but you see, at this point we're dealing with

 8     an objection that is raised by the opposite side.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And unfortunately it keeps you out of the loop.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If there's anything, your lawyer should have taken

13     instructions on how those documents relate to one another.  And if he

14     hasn't, the only solution is to mark them for identification, and once

15     you have given him proper instructions, he can come and give us an

16     explanation.

17             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's okay.

19             I just want to be clear what it is you are tendering at this

20     stage.  You are tendering 65 ter 526, pages 1 to 10 in English.

21             MR. SAXON:  Yes.  6526.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what else?

23             MR. SAXON:  And the same 65 ter number, pages 1 to 9 in B/C/S.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  That's all?

25             MR. SAXON:  Correct.

Page 1480

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That 65 ter 6526, pages 1 to 10 in English

 2     and 1 to 9 in B/C/S are marked for identification.  May they please be

 3     given an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages will be Exhibit P315, marked for

 5     identification, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MR. SAXON:  Can we please see 65 ter number 6528.  Your Honour,

 8     I'm not trying to aggravate you or your colleagues.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not aggravated at all.

10             MR. SAXON:  All right.  It's simply this:  Your order -- what you

11     did in your order was you marked for identification the pages from 6526

12     which Mr. Lukic does not object to their admission.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I see that now.  Thank you so

14     much.  I see the point.

15             MR. SAXON:  And can I perhaps simplify your work and Ms. Taseva's

16     work.  This same Official Note that is the basis of the objection, as

17     Mr. Lukic pointed out, has a separate 65 ter number, because we've

18     actually received these documents from different sources.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

20             MR. SAXON:  Just the note by itself is 65 ter 6557.  Perhaps for

21     your organisational purposes, it would be simpler simply to mark for

22     identification.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That explains the objection.  That answers

24     Mr. Lukic's problem.  Because he referred to 65 ter 6557 in his objection

25     and said now there are two documents exactly the same.  So it is exactly

Page 1481

 1     the same document, sir.  This note does not form part of Mr. Miletic's

 2     report, from that explanation.  It comes completely independently.  It is

 3     just the convenience of the Prosecution that they put them together, as I

 4     understand you now.

 5             Okay.  While you do that, on the point that you have raised with

 6     the Bench, may Exhibit P315 please be admitted into evidence and not

 7     marked for identification.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Exhibit P315, marked for

 9     identification, will now get exhibit status.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             That's where you thought you were giving us grief, and we were

12     giving you grief.  It was my fault.  Sorry about that.

13             MR. SAXON:  That's no problem, Your Honour.  I will move on now.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Move on.

15             MR. SAXON:  Can we please see 65 ter 6528.  It's there.  Very

16     well.

17        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, you refer to this document at page 73 of your

18     report, and we see this is a "Decision on the Adoption of the Rebalance

19     of Republika Srpska Budget for 1993."  Up at the top we see it was dated

20     25 March 1994.  And I'd like to take you first to Article 1.  What does

21     Article 1 tell us?

22        A.   It actually states the total amount in the -- what has been

23     translated here as the budget of Republika Srpska, but I would like to

24     draw your attention to the -- to the data which is listed as 25 March

25     1994, talking here about the budget for 1993.  So the way that I read

Page 1482

 1     this, this is closer to being the final annual accounts of the Republika

 2     Srpska for 1993.

 3        Q.   And --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that's how we should understand the word

 5     "rebalancing"?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That's at least how I interpret it.

 7             MR. SAXON:

 8        Q.   Very well.  If you look at Article 2, we see the same total

 9     figure, the last line, and we see a figure for original income, and then

10     we see a much larger figure for credits.  Can you explain what, if

11     anything, is significant, please.

12        A.   The significance being here that, as explained earlier, original

13     income, which is mainly made up of taxes, accounts for almost nothing of

14     the total budget, while the credits, here meaning the primary emission,

15     accounts for almost the whole of the income side of this budget.

16             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page in English, please, and

17     perhaps scroll down in B/C/S.

18        Q.   If we look at the -- if we look at this list of amounts of money,

19     again, at the very bottom under "Total Expenses," we see the same total.

20     Is there anything in this list that you found significant?

21        A.   Well, as you pointed out, you see the total expenses there.  I'm

22     just looking for the figure here that specifically shows what is going

23     for the army, the VRS.

24             MR. SAXON:  Can we scroll up a little bit, please.

25             THE WITNESS:  I can see it in the B/C/S version, but I can't see

Page 1483

 1     it in the translation here, because the B/C/S version shows the figure,

 2     starting off 700 and something.

 3             MR. SAXON:  One moment, please, Your Honour.

 4             THE WITNESS:  It's still the wrong page of the English

 5     translation.

 6             MR. SAXON:  I see.  Can we go to the third page, please, in

 7     English, and the following page in B/C/S.  I apologise.  Can we move back

 8     one page in the English version, please, and if we can focus on the very

 9     bottom of that list, we see Article 1, the full total, 732 billion

10     dinars.

11        Q.   And at the bottom of the list on page 2, do you see an item

12     called "Current Expenses of the Army"?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  That's exactly the point.  It shows that the expenses

14     of the army is close to taking up more or less the whole budget, and I

15     calculated that amount of 700 and something to account for 95 -- 95.6 per

16     cent of the total budget is actually used for the expenses of the army.

17             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

18     please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Document 65 ter 6528 is admitted into

20     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P316, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MR. SAXON:

24        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, at paragraphs 51 through 60 of your report, and

25     that's pages 19 through 21 of the English and pages 18 to 21 of the

Page 1484

 1     B/C/S, you discuss something known as the Public Accounting Office, or

 2     the SDK.  What was this institution, and what did it do?

 3        A.   That was the institution responsible for making the transfers of

 4     money between -- well, both within the FRY and also including the RS and

 5     the RSK, meaning that this institution and -- basically, the SDK, that's

 6     an institution making sure that the mechanism is working for transferring

 7     money.  It's also been translated as the Public Accounting Service, the

 8     State Accounting Service, and other various translations.  So that's

 9     basically the two that the -- that the FRY and the RS and the RSK is

10     using to transfer money between them.

11             Just to make a moment of that as well, this is not a new

12     invention.  This was something that also existed back in the days of the

13     SFRY, but then of course it also included the other republics.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where is it located, headquartered?

15             THE WITNESS:  That I do not remember anymore.

16             MR. SAXON:

17        Q.   Are you aware whether there were, for lack of a better term,

18     branch offices of the SDK in different areas?

19        A.   Yes.  There were offices all over the -- both the FRY, the RS,

20     and the RSK.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. SAXON:  Moving on, can we please see Prosecution P00149,

23     please, and if we could go to page 127 in the English and page 111 in the

24     B/C/S.  And the English -- the English translation has doc ID 0060-7339.

25        Q.   This document, the entire document, is an analysis of the combat

Page 1485

 1     readiness of the VRS.  It's dated April 1993.  And the full title is

 2     "Analysis of the Combat Readiness and Activities of the Army of Republika

 3     Srpska in 1992."

 4             Mr. Torkildsen, if we can focus on page 127, please, of the

 5     English.  First of all, you'll see there's a subheading:  "Planning of

 6     the Development and Financing of the VRS Army."  That's at the top of the

 7     page.  We'll see in bullet points there are three different stages that

 8     are discussed with three different time periods.  And then in the next

 9     full paragraph, there is a line beginning with "The Order of the Federal

10     Secretariat for National Defence."

11             Of what government, country, or institution did the Federal

12     Secretariat for National Defence belong to?

13        A.   The FRY.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. SAXON:  If we can focus on the next paragraph, beginning with

16     "In the second stage ..." please, if we can zoom in on that a little bit.

17        Q.   That paragraph begins:

18             "In the second stage, the Ministry of Defence, i.e., the

19     Government of Republika Srpska, took over the entire financing burden,

20     except for the personal expenditures (salaries and benefits) of officers,

21     non-commissioned officers, soldiers working under contract, and workers

22     who remained in or joined the Army of Republika Srpska from the former

23     JNA."

24             Did you take anything that was significant from this paragraph,

25     Mr. Torkildsen?

Page 1486

 1        A.   Yes, because the soldiers and also these other personnel

 2     categories that are being mentioned here, they were financed through the

 3     budget of Republika Srpska and that's -- that's the significance.  And if

 4     I also may add, this is part of a military document, and as I stated in

 5     the beginning, this was a typical military document also containing

 6     financial information, and that is why I reviewed it.  And what comes out

 7     later in this document, you will see how the money was actually spent.

 8        Q.   In this paragraph there's a phrase beginning with "Except

 9     for ..."  Do you see that phrase?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So there are some categories of persons which would not fall

12     under the financing of the Government of Republika Srpska.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Then who would be financing those categories - officers,

15     non-commissioned officers, et cetera?

16        A.   They would be financed from the FRY.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to page 128 in the English, and it would

19     be 112 in the B/C/S, I hope.  And can we focus on the very bottom of this

20     page, please.

21        Q.   And we see a subheading, 7.1, "The Spending of the Army Budget,"

22     where we see at its sessions in July 1992 the Assembly of what was then

23     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina approved funds for

24     financing the army in the July through December 1992 period.  Do you see

25     that?

Page 1487

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then it gives the amount, more than 53 billion dinars.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Trillion, I think it is.

 4             MR. SAXON:  I don't mean to argue with you, Mr. President.  I

 5     thought it was in the billions, but I will defer to you.  It even says in

 6     the English translation, written out, "53 billion."

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, you're right.  My apologies.

 8             MR. SAXON:  And can we turn to the next page in the English,

 9     please, 129, and can we focus in on the paragraph near the top, beginning

10     with "It is important ..."

11        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, that paragraph tells us, or the analysis tells us

12     that:

13             "It is important to mention that the salaries of officers,

14     non-commissioned officers, soldiers under contract and workers in the RS

15     Army, who until 19 May 1992 had been members of the JNA, continued to be

16     the responsibility of the FR Yugoslavia, so that these expenditures were

17     not debited from the budget of the Army of Republika Srpska."

18             Why, if at all, was this significant for you?

19        A.   This paragraph clearly states out that the officers and also some

20     other personnel categories continued to be the responsibility of the FRY

21     Yugoslavia, meaning that they continued to be on that payroll and was

22     financed from the FRY directly, in contrast to the ordinary soldiers who

23     were financed by the budget of Republika Srpska that again received the

24     money from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  So this is a direct

25     financing, while the financing of the budget or through the budget is

Page 1488

 1     actually an indirect financing.  But the source of the money all

 2     originates from Belgrade.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Can we now focus our attention on the table at the

 4     bottom of this page, please.  In the English version it's at the bottom.

 5     I don't -- yeah, we need to move to the next page in B/C/S.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   This table, Mr. Torkildsen, says that it "shows the amounts spent

 7     by individual support elements."  And the first purpose, if we see in the

 8     far left-hand column, says "Personnel Outlays."  Was this significant for

 9     you, that particular item?

10        A.   I think it's interesting here to note that actually the salaries

11     of conscripts and ordinary soldiers accounts for as much as close to

12     60 per cent of the total budget for the army here, and as I noted from

13     another part of this document, is that the reasoning for this is that the

14     ordinary soldiers, on average, in the RS Army in 2002 has got an average

15     strength of 212.000 soldiers.  So that probably explains the huge

16     percentage going to the ordinary soldiers.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. SAXON:  If we can leave this document now.

19        Q.   And again, if we can -- just to tie this together.  The money

20     that would have been allocated by the FRY to the Republika Srpska --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   -- for the needs of the Army of the Republika Srpska, where would

23     that money originate from?

24        A.   That would originate from the National Bank of Yugoslavia in

25     Belgrade.

Page 1489

 1        Q.   And how was that money financed, if you know?

 2        A.   By -- well, it was basically by primary emissions, printing

 3     money.

 4        Q.   Okay.  How long did this financing of the VRS through the

 5     issue -- through the use of primary emissions go on?

 6        A.   That went on until early 1994, most likely January 1994.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And what happened at that time?

 8        A.   Well, this may get a bit complicated, but what happened at that

 9     time is that a new governor was put in place in the National Bank of

10     Yugoslavia in Belgrade, Mr. Avramovic, and the National Bank of

11     Yugoslavia at that time pegged the dinar to the Deutschemark, meaning

12     that it was set at parity, again meaning that 1 Deutschemark was the

13     equivalent of 1 dinar, the purpose of this being to stop the enormous

14     inflation.  And what they did at that time was that they stopped -- and I

15     mean "them," the National Bank of Yugoslavia stopped using primary

16     emission as a tool to covering the budget deficits.  That was both the

17     budget deficits of the FRY as such and also the budget deficits of the RS

18     and the RSK.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And how was the deficit financed at this stage

20     now, or was it because now the stronger dinar was able to reduce the

21     deficit?

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, that is a very good question, and I

23     don't have a complete answer to that, because I've not been able to

24     locate, for instance, the RS budgets for -- or annual accounts for 1994

25     or 1995.  But I've seen a similar thing from the RSK budget for 1994, and

Page 1490

 1     that actually shows that they got more money in from taxation and other

 2     sources, meaning original income, than they had previously.  But I've

 3     also seen from other documents that the FRY, meaning the National Bank of

 4     Yugoslavia, was still providing cash to both the RS and the RSK, but the

 5     difference now was that the National Bank of Yugoslavia had asked the RS

 6     and the RSK national banks to back up these demands with hard currency.

 7     So they actually had to deposit hard currency, here I would assume mostly

 8     meaning Deutschemarks, in order to receive new fresh dinars.  So it was

 9     no longer a gift by the FRY to cover the budgets.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. SAXON:

12        Q.   If I can step back from this topic for a moment, Mr. Torkildsen.

13     When we were looking at the last document, and we saw that there was

14     financing from the FRY for certain members of the Army of Republika

15     Srpska, do you know from which institution or institutions that money

16     would have come from?

17        A.   That would have come from the 30th Personnel Centre with the VJ.

18        Q.   You mentioned, in answer to Judge Moloto's question, that the

19     money provided from the FRY to the RSK or the Republika Srpska, after

20     this change in 1994, was no longer a gift by the FRY to cover the budget.

21     Having said that, did the FRY continue to provide some kinds of financial

22     assistance to the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, they did, in terms of -- I've seen several documents

24     showing that both the VRS and the RSK army requesting cash from the

25     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  But mainly the big difference there for me

Page 1491

 1     in analysing this is that from the period 1994 and onwards, there is a

 2     lack of documentation compared to the previous period in order for me to

 3     conclude how this was done.  I can see that the VRS and the institutions

 4     of the RS are requesting money, but I can't really see how this is done

 5     in practice.  So I just have to rely on a previous document stating that

 6     they were actually planning at least for the institutions of the RS to

 7     actually deposit foreign currency in order to receive new dinars.  That's

 8     all I can conclude.  What actually happened, I do not know for sure after

 9     January 1994.

10             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn, please, to 65 ter 645.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, what do we do with P00149?

12             MR. SAXON:  That can be removed now, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not wanting to tender it.

14             MR. SAXON:  It is already an exhibit.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is already an exhibit.

16             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  This number that you gave when you put

18     it on the screen, you said it was P00149.

19             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In short, are you saying this is Exhibit P149 in

21     this case?

22             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour, and it's my understanding that the

23     entire document has been admitted into evidence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.  I wasn't aware of that.

25     Okay, you can call the -- what do you want now?

Page 1492

 1             MR. SAXON:  The next document would be 65 ter 645, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             MR. SAXON:

 4        Q.   This is a document entitled "Aide Memoire for the Coordination of

 5     Tasks at the VJ/Yugoslav Army/GS/General Staff on 17 December 1993."

 6             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page, please.  The document

 7     is dated December 1993.

 8        Q.   On this particular page we can see it's sent from the General

 9     Staff of the Yugoslav Army to the Office of the Chief of the General

10     Staff, and it refers to the coordination of tasks between the VJ and the

11     SVK that will be attended by persons from the Main Staff of the SVK, and

12     then there are proposals below for matters of discussion.  If we scroll

13     down to the bottom, we see that it's signed and stamped by the Chief of

14     the Office of the SVK Commander, Colonel Cedo Radovanovic.

15             MR. SAXON:  Can we turn to the next page.  Actually, it would be

16     page 13 in the English, and I am embarrassed because I'm not sure that I

17     have the B/C/S, but I might.  It's page 10 in the B/C/S version.  And if

18     we can focus on the last paragraph, please, the bottom of the page.

19        Q.   We see a subparagraph (c), "New Requests."  And then we are told:

20             "We have learned unofficially that of the above total balance of

21     requirements for 1994, the Federal Government will only be able to

22     provide USD 850 million for all three armed forces instead of USD 3.29

23     billion, i.e., 25.82 per cent of the stated requirements.  For the SVK,

24     this would amount to USD 79.43 million instead of USD 307.30 million."

25             Did you take anything from this paragraph, Mr. Torkildsen, that

Page 1493

 1     was relevant or significant for your report?

 2        A.   Yes.  As we can see here, it is the FRY government who's actually

 3     planning to fund all three armies in -- also in 1994, but they are

 4     getting less than they originally had planned for.  As I mentioned

 5     previously, even if the financing through primary emissions stopped, at

 6     least they were still planning to continue the financing in 1994, by then

 7     a different method.  But then again, as I pointed out, when it comes to

 8     1994, there has been a lack of documents for me to review.

 9             It's also notable here to see that at this point in time they are

10     talking about their requirements in US dollars and not in dinars anymore,

11     and that is, of course, because of the hyperinflation.  These dinar

12     denominations didn't mean anything anymore because the value changed from

13     one day to the other.

14             MR. SAXON:  I would seek to tender this document into evidence,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P317, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. SAXON:  Can we please pull up 65 ter number 6548.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we help, Mr. Perisic?  Are you okay?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, everything is okay.  The accused

23     has his headsets on so he might have been a little loud in communicating

24     with me.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 1494

 1             MR. SAXON:  If we can enlarge the English.  Yes, thank you very

 2     much.

 3        Q.   This is a document dated the 5th of May, 1994, to the Sarajevo

 4     Romanija Corps Command.  We see it's signed -- or the accuracy of the

 5     transcription is certified by Commander Dzoko Trifkovic.  We also see the

 6     name of Commander Major General Stanislav Galic to the left.  And the

 7     document, if you see -- well, at the top, the subject is "Conscript

 8     Salaries for the Month of February," and it's an announcement.

 9             In the first paragraph it describes how the authors have received

10     a letter, referring to a document from the Ministry of Defence of

11     Republika Srpska, dated the 4th of May, 1994, the previous day of this

12     document.  And if you look at subparagraph 3, Mr. Torkildsen, it says:

13             "In our daily contacts with the National Bank of Yugoslavia, due

14     to enormous problems we have so far been unable to secure that cash.

15     They have promised us that they will secure the cash by 6 May 1994, so

16     that payment would commence on 9 May 1994 at the latest."

17             And you cited this document at paragraph 119 of your report.

18     What did you take from this document that was significant?

19        A.   The document shows that one corps or unit within the VRS is still

20     requesting cash from the National Bank of Yugoslavia, and they point that

21     they have a problem receiving that cash and -- yeah.

22             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, I would seek to tender this document.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

24     number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P318, Your Honours.

Page 1495

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. SAXON:  If we could now see 65 ter number 6521, please, which

 3     is a document referred to at paragraph 98 of Mr. Torkildsen's report.

 4             The document is called "Official Note from the Talks Between

 5     Representatives of the RSK Government and President Slobodan Milosevic."

 6     It's directed to the Ministry of the Republic of Serbia.  Can we see more

 7     of the bottom of the page, please.

 8             The first paragraph talks about a meeting held on the 12th of

 9     November, 1992, hosted by the president of the Republic of Serbia, where

10     there were representatives of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the

11     Government of the Republic of Serbia.  President Slobodan Milosevic, we

12     see, was there, prime Minister Radovan Bozovic, and also we see the

13     President of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Goran Hadzic.  And

14     following the first paragraph, we see a sentence, or part of a sentence,

15     saying:  "At the meeting the mode of financial assistance to the Krajina

16     until the end of the year was agreed."

17             And the following large paragraph -- well, the following

18     paragraph discusses defence, and an outline creating the RSK's army and

19     its financing was brought up.  And then we see in the following

20     paragraph:

21             "The President, Mr. Milosevic, agreed to the concept of creating

22     a defence system of the Krajina which would be based on about 23.000

23     people in the police ..."

24             And later on in that paragraph -- actually, if we go to the next

25     paragraph, we see that:

Page 1496

 1             "President Milosevic said that funds for maintaining equipment

 2     should be planned via the Army of Yugoslavia and that he would help in

 3     the implementation of this and that the Army of Yugoslavia should finance

 4     the active officers and civilians who stayed behind in the Krajina."

 5             Did you find anything significant about this passage?

 6        A.   Yes.  It is stated here that the funds for maintaining the

 7     equipment should be planned via the Army of Yugoslavia and that they

 8     should invest in that direction, and further on, that the Army of

 9     Yugoslavia, meaning here the VJ, should finance the active officers,

10     meaning the army officers in the RSK army.

11             MR. SAXON:  And if we scroll further to the bottom of the

12     English, perhaps it's on the next page of the English, we see that the

13     document is from President of the Republic, Goran Hadzic.  It was

14     received on the 24th of June, 1993.

15             Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P319, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, I just misspoke because I was looking

21     at a different document.  The document that was just admitted was from

22     the Minister of defence, Stojan Spanovic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. SAXON:  Can we please see 65 ter 6116, a document which

25     Mr. Torkildsen refers to at paragraph 102 of his report.  And we see this

Page 1497

 1     is a document from the Republika Srpska Krajina, Cabinet of the

 2     President.  It's sent from the President of the Republic, Goran Hadzic.

 3     At the bottom we see it was processed -- it was received on the 24th of

 4     June, 1993.  And if we could focus, please, first on the paragraph that

 5     begins with the line "We need help ..."  It's the third full paragraph.

 6        Q.   In that paragraph, it says that:

 7             "We need help in technical maintenance of weapons and acquisition

 8     of ammunition, grease, and petrol.  All weapons and ammunition we get

 9     from the Yugoslav Army."

10             And then the last sentence, it says:

11             "We are not financially in position to make up for medium and

12     general service which may be done by the institutions of the Yugoslav

13     Army."

14             MR. SAXON:  And if we could then focus, please, on the paragraph

15     lower down that begins with the word "Representatives ..."

16        Q.   It says that:

17             "Representatives of the SAK Headquarters together with their

18     commandant presented these problems at the last meeting with the General

19     Staff of the Yugoslav Army on 24 May 1993."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we be reminded?  What does "SAK" stand for?

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I'm not familiar with the acronym SAK.

22     Excuse me, Serbian Army of Krajina.  It's at the top.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, it's an English acronym.

24             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

25        Q.   And then there is a paragraph that says -- it's a request,

Page 1498

 1     actually.

 2             "We ask you to try to exercise your authority and influence the

 3     realisation of our requests presented to the General Staff of the

 4     Yugoslav Army as soon as possible."

 5             Mr. Torkildsen, what, if anything, did you find significant in

 6     this document?

 7        A.   This document corroborates all the documents that I have seen

 8     that the RSK army didn't have their own financial resources, so they had

 9     to request that from -- from the FRY.  And here they are specifically

10     asking the then-President, Mr. Milosevic to use his influence over the VJ

11     army in order to get that financial assistance that they need.

12             MR. SAXON:  I would seek to tender this document, Your Honour,

13     please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

15     number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P320, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Saxon, would you like an early one?  You don't sound very

19     well.

20             MR. SAXON:  I'm grateful, Your Honour, and I do see the time.

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just saying, in light of your condition.

23             MR. SAXON:  Well, no, Your Honour -- no, normally we would break

24     at this time?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At 12.00.

Page 1499

 1             MR. SAXON:  Well, then, it's probably -- it probably makes sense

 2     before I go on to the next document.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll take a break and come back at half

 4     past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 8             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Could we please see Prosecution 65 ter 6556.

10        Q.   This is a request for a cash grant from the National Bank of

11     Republic of Serbian Krajina, dated 24 July 1995, and the request is

12     addressed to the National Bank of Yugoslavia, the Treasury Directorate,

13     General Director Vojo Tomic.

14             Mr. Torkildsen --

15             MR. SAXON:  Excuse me, could we scroll down towards the bottom of

16     this page.

17        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, the first paragraph says:

18             "Please authorise a new grant of cash, totaling 10 million dinars

19     for the requirements of the National Bank of the Republic of Serbian

20     Krajina."

21             And the next paragraph:

22             "Since we are nearing the end of July, and the deadline for

23     paying the army, police, pensions, et cetera, is approaching, our needs

24     are great."

25             And it says:

Page 1500

 1             "In order for the National Bank of the Republic of Serbian

 2     Krajina to provide the funds necessary to cover the requirements cited,

 3     it needs a further 10 million dinars in addition to the cash in its own

 4     treasury."

 5             You cite to this request at paragraph 72 of your report.  What

 6     did you find significant about this document?

 7        A.   I think the most significant is that as late as in July 1995, the

 8     RSK National Bank is still requesting cash from the National Bank of

 9     Yugoslavia, and it also states what the use of the money will be.

10             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

11     please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

13     number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P321, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             MR. SAXON:  Could we please see Prosecution 65 ter 6523.

17        Q.   This is a document addressed to the investigating judge of the

18     district court in Belgrade, and it's an appeal by the defendant

19     Slobodan Milosevic against the ruling to detain him.  At the very

20     bottom -- at the end of the third page in English, Mr. Milosevic -- we

21     see Mr. Milosevic has signed it, and the date of this document is 2 April

22     2001.

23             Mr. Torkildsen --

24             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Ms. Taseva.  Can we go back to the first

25     page, please.  Actually, I misspoke.  Ms. Taseva was correct.  Can we go

Page 1501

 1     back to the second page in English.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Torkildsen, the second paragraph of the second page

 3     begins with the word "As regards ..."  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   And Mr. Milosevic writes:

 6             "As regards the resources spent for weapons, ammunition, and

 7     other needs of the Army of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

 8     Krajina, these expenditures constituted a state secret and because of

 9     state interests could not be indicated in the Law on the Budget, which is

10     a public document."

11             And further down that paragraph, in the middle of the paragraph

12     four lines from the bottom, we see --

13             MR. SAXON:  I'm sorry, could we scroll up in the English, please.

14     We're on the same paragraph.

15        Q.   We see Mr. Milosevic says -- this is five lines from the bottom:

16             "... and this was not made public ..." he's talking about

17     expenditures, "... because it was a state secret, as was everything else

18     that was provided for the Army of Republika Srpska."

19             Mr. Torkildsen, what did you take from that document that is

20     significant for your report?

21        A.   This statement signed by Mr. Milosevic corroborates exactly with

22     some of the other documents that I've been through this morning in terms

23     of pointing out the assistance that they gave to the Army of Republika

24     Srpska being a state secret and not clearly apparent from the budgets.

25     Because when we look at, for instance, the budget of the RS, there is no

Page 1502

 1     mentioning there of the primary emissions coming from Belgrade.  In order

 2     to actually establish that, we have to look at all the other documents

 3     and how they relate to each other and put it into a context, and then we

 4     can see the pattern of how this was done.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying in the state documents there was no

 6     mention of primary emissions in the funding of the RS?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  No, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It was clearly a

 8     mentioning of the primary issues, but there was no mentioning in the RS

 9     budget that this originated from Belgrade.  Like, for instance, the

10     Miletic report that we looked at - that was the confidential and not the

11     public document, in the public domain -  that explains that.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. SAXON:  For the record, this is referred to at paragraphs 15

14     and 99 of Mr. Torkildsen's report.

15             Your Honour, I would seek to tender this into evidence, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P322, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

21             MR. SAXON:

22        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, at paragraphs 5 to 15 of your report, you provide

23     your conclusions.  Could you briefly describe the conclusions that you

24     reached based on the work that you performed.

25        A.   Yes.  My conclusion is that from the year -- from the end of 1991

Page 1503

 1     and until early 1994, the main financing source of the RS was the primary

 2     emissions that they received from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  And I

 3     would also like to add that after that point in time I have not seen any

 4     other sources of finance for either the RS or the RSK.  Throughout the

 5     whole period the main source of finance for these entities there, the

 6     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and also the Republic of Serbia.

 7        Q.   Just so that the record is clear, you said "throughout the whole

 8     period."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you give us the years that you're referring to now?

11        A.   I'm referring to the period 1991 and including 1994, and also at

12     least certain periods of 1995 where they were still requesting cash, as

13     pointed out in the previous documents.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, if I may, can we call up 65 ter 6557,

16     please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             While we're waiting for this 65 ter 557, Mr. Torkildsen, would

19     you make the caveat to that conclusion that you are reaching that as late

20     as 1995 there was still yet a requisition from the RSK for that 10

21     billion dinar to Serbia.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, to the FRY.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So beyond 1994 there was at least that 10 billion

24     request.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, they were still requesting cash.

Page 1504

 1     Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you don't know whether that request was met?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I haven't seen any evidence to that, no.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, not to beat a dead horse, the document

 5     in front of you is a --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Official Note.

 7             MR. SAXON:  -- is an Official Note.  It is a slightly different

 8     version of the Official Note that we discussed earlier today that was

 9     part of 65 ter 6526.  I've discussed this with my colleague, Mr. Lukic,

10     and what I propose to do simply now is if this Official Note, 6557, could

11     be marked for identification at this time, and then Mr. Lukic, I believe,

12     will make his arguments about the admission of this document after

13     cross-examination.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if you can clear me, you're saying something

15     slightly different from what you said earlier.

16             Earlier when we discussed Mr. Miletic's report, you indicated

17     that that attachment there, that Official Note in that report, is exactly

18     the same as this one, or at least Mr. Lukic said so.

19             MR. SAXON:  And I was wrong, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you were wrong.

21             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So there are two separate documents, slightly

23     different?

24             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Exhibit 6557 -- I beg your pardon.  65 ter

Page 1505

 1     6557 is admitted -- is marked for identification.  May it please be given

 2     an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P323, marked for

 4     identification, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. SAXON:      Your Honours, that concludes my direct

 7     examination.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

 9             Mr. Lukic.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Torkildsen.  Let me

12     introduce myself.  My name is Novak Lukic.  I'm an attorney from

13     Belgrade, and on behalf of the Defence of Mr. Perisic, I'm going to ask

14     you a few questions now.

15             First of all, some introductory clarifications is what I'd like

16     to seek from you.  Now, this report, the report that we're discussing

17     today, you compiled, first and foremost, for the requirements of the

18     Prosecution in the Slobodan Milosevic trial; right?

19        A.   That is correct, yes.

20        Q.   And in that same trial you appeared in court and testified with

21     respect to your expert report and answered questions during the

22     cross-examination conducted by Mr. Milosevic himself; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This report of yours, with certain additions and amendments, in

25     fact, represented, if I can put it this way, the substance of your expert

Page 1506

 1     finding before the International Court of Justice, pursuant to the

 2     complaint made by Bosnia-Herzegovina and the lawsuit against the state

 3     community of Serbia and Montenegro, which was conducted two years ago.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You also, as far as I was able to see, for the needs and

 6     requirements of the OTP, you compiled another report, expert report, in

 7     the Milosevic trial which was called a supplemental report, or something

 8     like that, and was linked to your analysis of the financing of the MUP of

 9     the Republic of Serbia and the Army of Yugoslavia by or, rather, through,

10     via, if I can put it that way the companies that were established in

11     Cyprus.  That was what you focused on in your expert report; is that

12     right?

13        A.   That is right, yes.

14        Q.   And that expert report was not admitted either in the Milosevic

15     trial or in the Milutinovic trial.  It was tendered, but it was not

16     admitted as an exhibit; is that right?

17        A.   I can only answer to the Milosevic trial.  That's correct, it was

18     not admitted.  The Milutinovic trial, I do not know anything about so ...

19        Q.   I'd now like to ask you a few questions about your CV so that we

20     can clarify our discussion this morning and your morning testimony, and

21     for that I'm going to use what I have in front of me, which is Exhibit

22     P309, but I might be referring to your first expert report, the initial

23     one.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could have that brought

25     up.  It is 65 ter -- just a moment.  Let me check the number.  6527 is

Page 1507

 1     the number.

 2        Q.   Well, here it goes.  You'll remember this first report, or,

 3     rather, CV that you attached to your 2002 expert report, your curriculum

 4     vitae.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for clarity's sake, Mr. Lukic, what we have

 6     on the screen now is what you call 6527.  What happened to P309, which

 7     you were calling -- which you also called?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Not for the time being.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I might refer to -- I think I'm going

11     to focus on this particular CV for the moment.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You studied at the University of Manchester, and you studied in

15     the field of management; right?

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   I looked through the programme of that particular university, and

18     I'm interested in knowing what it was at the time, and I did not see that

19     there were any studies, any course, which would cover public finances and

20     macro-economic policy.

21             Now, at the time that you were there, was there any course or

22     subject taught from that particular area?

23        A.   Actually, finance was a big part of this.  There were both

24     courses in both macro-economics and micro-economics.  Just to clarify,

25     because I think there have been some big changes with that University of

Page 1508

 1     Manchester Institute of Science and Technology after I left.  I now think

 2     that a part of UMIST has merged with Manchester University, the main

 3     university in Manchester, so I think it would be rather difficult to look

 4     back to what was actually taught.  But that's an issue.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what do we understand in the context of your

 6     discussion to be macro-economics and micro-economics?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Macro-economics is exactly the issues we're dealing

 8     with today regarding how, for instance, a country overall is being

 9     financed, instead of the micro-economics of how it -- actually businesses

10     go about conducting their finances.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you have any final paper to write?  And if so, what was the

13     subject of that thesis or paper?

14        A.   Are you thinking about my master's degree or my bachelor's

15     degree?

16        Q.   I'm still at your studies in Manchester, but I'll ask you about

17     your post-graduate studies in due course.  In Manchester, did you have

18     any final paper to write?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Then you attended post-graduate studies for one year in London, I

21     believe, and it says that this was in shipping, trade, and finance.

22     That's what it says in your CV.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you have any final paper to write there?  And if so, what was

25     the subject?

Page 1509

 1        A.   Yes, I did have a final paper, and my final paper was "The

 2     Attractiveness of Shipping Shares to the Institutional Investors on the

 3     Oslo Stock Exchange."

 4        Q.   Yes, thank you.  I don't think I could repeat that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can read it on the screen.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Tell me, please, in your post-graduate studies, within the

 8     frameworks of the course you just mentioned, was there any specialisation

 9     course with topics such as monetary unions, public finances, or

10     inflationary trends, or anything like that?

11        A.   Well, I did a lot of -- well, it was focusing on -- the whole

12     study was focusing on financing, but it was not very much at the macro

13     level, mostly at the micro level.

14        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, I understand your CV in the global sense as

15     saying that professionally you focused on research work; that during your

16     career you were a researcher and investigator.  So let me ask you:  Did

17     you ever write a professional paper, and were those papers printed?  I

18     don't see that in your CV, either in the first CV you provided or in this

19     latest CV either.

20        A.   I've never written any professional papers regarding

21     macro-financing, no.

22        Q.   So, in actual fact, would I be right in saying that your

23     professional work, first and foremost, was that for 13 years you dealt

24     with research and investigation and establishing some omissions or faults

25     in companies, but you dealt primarily with police research work, if I can

Page 1510

 1     put it that way.

 2        A.   To a certain extent, you are right.  But as a financial

 3     investigator, a lot of the work that I carried out was analysis and

 4     evaluating documents and trying to identify how they -- how the facts

 5     related to each other.

 6        Q.   And the focus of your activity was largely -- well, I'd like to

 7     focus on the period until 2002 principally.  They were fraud, corruption,

 8     bribery, in various institutions for which you -- which you were in

 9     charge of investigating and monitoring.  Would that be generally right?

10        A.   It would be very much a matter of following the money trail.  In

11     order to solve a financial crime, you would have to follow the money from

12     where it starts and to whose pockets it ends up in, which is very much

13     the same as in this case.  It's just that in this case it's a much

14     broader scale, but the principles being the same.

15        Q.   Yes, but before you became an investigator for the OTP, in your

16     investigations you did not look into public finances, did you?

17        A.   Well, I did look into public financing in cases -- actually,

18     regards -- regarding defrauding the state.  Unfortunately, there are a

19     lot of cases out there that involves people basically stealing public

20     money.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we take a look at page 2 of this

22     document that we've just had on our screens.  It says there -- well, I'm

23     sorry, but we have to go back to page 1, the bottom part of page 1, and

24     I'm interested in the period between 1994 up to 2000.

25        Q.   I'm reading the B/C/S version, so it's a bit -- it says you were

Page 1511

 1     special investigator for Norway of the Norwegian National Authority for

 2     Investigation and Prosecution of Economic and Environmental Crime.  So

 3     that's the period before you became an investigator in the Hague

 4     Tribunal, or rather the OTP of the Tribunal.  So for a series of years,

 5     you worked for that Norwegian agency, and it has an acronym, I believe,

 6     OKOKRIM, or something like that.

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Now, I took a look at that.  Would you agree with me when I say

 9     that the report of the organisation called "Group of States Against

10     Corruption," that in 2002 they ascertained that Norway had the least

11     number of cases of corruption and embezzlement, and so on.  Do you agree

12     with that conclusion?

13        A.   It depends compared to, actually, which other countries?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15             MR. SAXON:  I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt the response.  I

16     can wait.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

18             Finish off your answer, Mr. Torkildsen.

19             THE WITNESS:  Actually, Norway, unfortunately, is ranked as the

20     most corrupt country in the Nordic region, but it's very low on the

21     international scale.  But we do have, unfortunately, quite a number of

22     corruption cases.  Had.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No longer?

24             THE WITNESS:  Well, we still have some ongoing cases.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

Page 1512

 1             MR. SAXON:  Thank you.

 2             Would it be possible for the Prosecution to receive a copy of the

 3     report that Mr. Lukic mentioned?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have it with me, but

 5     certainly I will provide it to the Prosecution.  I hadn't prepared to

 6     tender that into evidence.  I just wanted to check out my information.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We would love to have it

 8     handed over.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   There's something else that I read in that particular report, and

11     it's this:  That from 1997 to 2000, this organisation, OKOKRIM, that you

12     worked for, launched two investigations for corruption, and that during

13     that period of time nobody was convicted of that crime.  That's what I

14     read, so would that be right?  Do you agree with that?  Do you know

15     anything more about that?  Because it was during the period that you

16     worked there, I believe.

17        A.   What I remember from that period, I investigated one case that I

18     actually spent more than three years on.  It was a big corruption case

19     involving a Norwegian National being employed by UNICEF.  As I mentioned

20     this morning, it involved investigations in approximately 15 to 16

21     countries throughout Europe, including the US.  So that was basically

22     what kept me busy at that time.  And the person in question, he was found

23     guilty, and that must have been in 2001, because I remember I had to

24     leave the Tribunal in order to go to Oslo to testify.

25        Q.   During that period while you were working in that Norwegian

Page 1513

 1     agency, I assume that you worked in teams.  Did you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And I also assume that the teams included professionals from

 4     different professions, for example, economics; another example, law; then

 5     various other specialties; forensic experts, and so on.  I assume that

 6     that's how your teamwork functioned.

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   Now, in those teams of yours, were there public prosecutors

 9     included and were you subordinate to the rules governing the public

10     prosecutor's office?

11        A.   Yes.  Each of the teams was led by a senior public prosecutor.

12        Q.   And I also assume that it was the public prosecutor that set the

13     guidelines for you, that is to say, to steer you in one direction or

14     another and provide perhaps legal advice linked to what the prosecutor

15     was interested in for him to be able to take action should the need

16     arise.

17        A.   That would be his job, yes.

18        Q.   Did you also have to be informed about legal regulations during

19     that period of time that were in force and were important for your cases.

20     For example, if you were there supposed to establish whether a person in

21     a company was responsible for something and if they did hold a

22     responsible position in a company, you would have to know what their

23     legal responsibilities were.

24        A.   I'm not sure I understand your question here.

25        Q.   If you were investigating a case, corruption in a company, for

Page 1514

 1     example, you had to know what laws applied to the functioning of that

 2     company to see whether there were any irregularities or omissions in the

 3     work of such a company.

 4        A.   Yes, that could be relevant.  Yes.

 5        Q.   I'd now like to ask you a few questions linked to your work and

 6     your methodology, and you told us something about that to a certain

 7     extent in your introduction here today.

 8             Paragraph 1, in particular, do you have your report in front of

 9     you?  I'd like you to be provided with a copy if you haven't got it,

10     because I'd like to refer to paragraph 1.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So Mr. Torkildsen be provided with a

12     hard copy, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like to bring it up on the screen,

14     Mr. --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Yes, we can do that

16     too, yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, what would you like to do that

18     with 6527?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender that document

20     into evidence as well, and I apologise for not doing so.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

22     please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D9, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we put up paragraph 1, ERN

Page 1515

 1     number -- let me just check that.  It is Mr. Torkildsen's report.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the exhibit number?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It is P310, marked for identification, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 1, please.  We'll just wait

 8     to have it up in English.  Yes, it's there.

 9        Q.   Anyway, this is what you say.  You say that:

10             "The Office of the Prosecutor asked me to identify, review,

11     analyse and write a report on a large number of documents obtained from

12     the OTP."

13             And then you go on to say that the scope of your report was "to

14     determine what, if any, during the period of 1991 to 1995, financial

15     support was provided by organisations under the alleged de jure and de

16     facto control of Slobodan Milosevic ..." and then it goes on to mention

17     the areas that were called Republika Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska.

18             That's a summary of paragraph 1.  Mr. Torkildsen, can you tell us

19     how you, as an economist, understand the concept of de jure and de facto.

20     You must have had a position on that concept given your assignment.

21        A.   The de jure control would be actually the control you have in

22     fact of your official position, but it doesn't exactly mean that you can

23     also influence on the control of other people, even if, according to your

24     official position, that is not the case.  So there is a big difference

25     there.  So it can be in terms of your personality, who you are connected

Page 1516

 1     to, and so on.

 2        Q.   So that would be de facto control, what you just said.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Somebody that doesn't have direct -- well, that's where you make

 5     the distinction.  Yes, I understand right.

 6             Now, the person from the OTP who gave you this assignment and

 7     stipulated it as set out in paragraph 1, did the Prosecutor who gave you

 8     the assignment tell you what they, that is to say, the OTP, considers

 9     were organisations under de jure control of Mr. Milosevic and what were

10     the de facto ones?  Did they present their views in the matter?

11        A.   Well, as it is stated here, "the alleged control," and then that,

12     again, means what was alleged by the Prosecution.  Again, that means the

13     indictment of Mr. Slobodan Milosevic.

14        Q.   For you to know who, according to the Prosecution, were the

15     organs under the de jure control of Slobodan Milosevic, you had to be

16     aware of the regulations giving that person his de jure remit, if I can

17     put it that way.

18        A.   Well, I -- presumably at that time I did have some knowledge

19     about the regulations.  It's okay that I only -- well, that I dealt

20     mainly with the financial documents, but of course I also read other

21     documents that were provided to me.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also thought, Mr. Lukic, that the witness said

23     that the allegations of de jure and de facto were as made in the

24     indictment by the Prosecution.  It was not a determination by him, but a

25     determination by the Prosecutor.

Page 1517

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that, Your Honour,

 2     but I wanted to ask the question nonetheless because I wanted to link

 3     that up to his conclusions in paragraph 124, in order to be able to see

 4     how he was able to establish and ascertain Milosevic's de jure and

 5     de facto relationships.

 6        Q.   Did you, Mr. Torkildsen -- well, anyway, in the Milosevic trial,

 7     you testified and said that you hadn't read the constitution when asked

 8     by Mr. Milosevic on page 32 of the transcript of the 10th of April, 2003.

 9     Do you remember that?  We can put it up on the screen if need be.  But

10     anyway, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you had read the constitution of

11     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and your answer was no.

12        A.   That is correct.  I remember very well the time I had in court

13     with Mr. Milosevic.

14        Q.   And did you read at that time the role on the Federal Executive

15     Council or, rather, the law on the Federal Executive Council, and the

16     National Bank of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which was

17     in force until 1992?  Did you read those laws and regulations?

18        A.   That I cannot remember.

19        Q.   I have a number of questions relating to regulations.  The law on

20     the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia after the

21     constitution was enacted, did you read that?  And I'm referring in 1992.

22        A.   In general I can state that as of today, I cannot remember which

23     laws I read.

24        Q.   Did you read the laws provided to you by someone from the

25     Prosecutor, or did you request the OTP to provide you with certain laws

Page 1518

 1     and regulations that you considered would be necessary for you to be able

 2     to carry out your work?  Do you remember that in methodological terms,

 3     I'm asking you now?

 4        A.   I can't remember which laws I requested or which laws were

 5     provided me now, six years later.  No, I'm sorry.

 6        Q.   I assume that you know that in the Federal Republic of

 7     Yugoslavia, as in Republika Srpska and the Serbian Republic of Krajina,

 8     who passed the budget.

 9        A.   Yeah, it would be the government who had proposed the budget, and

10     then it would be the Assembly would vote on the budget and pass the

11     budget as such.

12        Q.   Do you happen to know -- did you read this in any of the

13     regulations or come across a document which indicates who within the

14     government proposed part of the budget earmarked for defence?

15        A.   I can't remember now.

16        Q.   If I told you that it was the Minister of Defence together with

17     the Minister of Finance, would that be logical?

18        A.   That sounds very logical, yes.

19        Q.   Do you know who was the beneficiary of the defence budget?  To be

20     very specific, the budget of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia earmarked

21     for defence, who was the beneficiary of that particular segment of the

22     budget?

23        A.   That would be the army, of course.

24        Q.   Anybody else?

25        A.   Well, if we're talking about the army, it would be the officers

Page 1519

 1     employed in the army.  It would be the soldiers, conscripts, all other

 2     personnel that was attached to the army.

 3        Q.   But you claim that the part of the budget earmarked for defence

 4     was earmarked specifically for the army and whatever was within the army.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I have another couple of questions in regard of methodology.

 7     Today, I understood that in preparing to compile this report, you made

 8     use of a large number of documents that you were provided by the OTP, and

 9     then you examined them or looked for the keyword, as you have described.

10     Having been provided some of these documents by the assistants, you used

11     these documents as a source for your own analysis.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I interpret this as classical analytical work.  This was not

14     investigative work.  This was an analytical work on the basis of sources

15     provided to you by someone else.

16        A.   It was very much an analytical job, yes.

17        Q.   This was at variance with what you had done before, where you

18     actually investigated documents and sought out documents yourself.  In

19     this case you were offered these documents.

20        A.   Yes.  To a certain extent that is correct.  But also, all my

21     previous jobs have been very much analytical, I mean, but the difference

22     being here that I didn't initially collect the documents myself firsthand

23     from the original source, that being the main difference.

24        Q.   In my view there is a methodological difference here, and I'm

25     going to ask you whether I'm wrong.  When you did your previous reports,

Page 1520

 1     when you worked on your previous jobs, when you were an investigator of

 2     these teams organised within the Norwegian bodies and some embezzlement

 3     of this is reported to you, so you come to an institution and the

 4     representatives of that institution provide you with some documents and

 5     then you ask them for something else, or you go to other institutions to

 6     find the solution which you're interested in; namely, you are not

 7     confined to just those documents given to you by this first company, but

 8     you also seek out some other sources yourself.

 9        A.   Yes, I did seek out sources myself as well, yes.

10        Q.   In this report, when you prepared this paper, you worked

11     exclusively on the basis of what was provided to you by the OTP, am I

12     right?

13        A.   Almost exclusively.  Just to elaborate on that.  For instance,

14     the budgets that we have presented here today, these were not budgets

15     that were entered into the evidence system of the OTP because -- so as

16     such were not part of the OTP collected evidence, but they were still

17     available in sort of the public domain of the OTP.  But no one at the OTP

18     had thought about this being of relevance before.  So I requested these

19     budgets to be presented to me and they were, and I reviewed them.

20        Q.   Let's have no mysteries.  Budgets and budget revisions and final

21     accounts are public documents in the public document -- in the public

22     domain, both in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in the Republic of

23     Serbian Krajina, and in Republika Srpska, and all of them had been

24     published in their respective Official Gazettes; right?

25        A.   That is my understanding, yes.

Page 1521

 1        Q.   And you have confirmed for us today that in your analysis, in

 2     1994, you only examined for the fiscal year 1994 the budget of the

 3     Republic of Serbian Krajina; is that right?

 4        A.   That is correct.  I asked the OTP to assist me in identifying the

 5     RS budget for 1994 and 1994 -- 1995, but I haven't received it, and it

 6     hasn't been identified.

 7        Q.   I found it only a couple of days ago myself, and it was quite

 8     simple to find.  Did you ask --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

10             MR. SAXON:  I believe that last comment was really Mr. Lukic

11     providing evidence, rather than a question.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My profound apologies.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You knew, did you not, that those were public documents?  Did you

17     go to your colleagues from the OTP with whom you're working and tell

18     them, I should like to be able to find all these budgets for Republika

19     Srpska, for the Serbian Krajina, and for the Federal Republic of

20     Yugoslavia, and all the budget revisions and all the final accounts.

21     This is what you certainly needed in your analysis, didn't you?

22        A.   Yes, of course, it would have been helpful.

23        Q.   But did you ask them to provide you with those documents?

24        A.   Yes.  I first asked them to identify them and -- yeah.

25        Q.   And were you given such information?  Could they identify them,

Page 1522

 1     or did they tell you that they could not identify them?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, they looked for them but they couldn't

 3     identify them.

 4        Q.   Had you been in your previous position, you would have had the

 5     power to go to a certain institution and ask for a specific document

 6     yourself.  I mean when you were working as an investigator in the

 7     Norwegian organisation.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you know that in the Republic of Srpska, a law had been

10     passed on the Social Accountancy Service or the -- actually, you talked

11     about the Public Accounting Service and the Public Auditing Service, but

12     the designations have been changed, but functionally and

13     operational-wise, they are the same organisation.  Do you know that this

14     law was passed in Republika Srpska in May 1992?

15        A.   I may have seen this law but I can't remember.

16        Q.   If I tell you that under Article 8 of that law it has been

17     envisaged that all documents and books of the Public Accounting Service

18     of Republika Srpska are public documents, do you think that it would have

19     been of assistance to you if you had examined the books of the Public

20     Accounting Service of Republika Srpska in the period under review,

21     namely, in the period in which you were doing your own investigations?

22        A.   That would have been of interest, yes.

23        Q.   Did you propose to the OTP at any point during your investigative

24     and analytical work, namely, whilst examining all these documents, did

25     you propose to the OTP to ask for a specific document from, for instance,

Page 1523

 1     the authorities in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or in the Republika

 2     Srpska or in Croatia?  Did you not think that that would help you locate,

 3     identify, a specific document, or did you not do so?

 4        A.   We had -- we had several requests to the authorities in Belgrade

 5     and also, as far as I remember, other places.  But I would just like to

 6     add to this because the situation at the OTP, I was the only financial

 7     investigator actually dealing with an enormous task, and if we were going

 8     to follow all angles regarding this case, it would have required a huge

 9     number of financial investigators or investigators with the right

10     competence to follow up all the possible leads.

11        Q.   But do you agree with me when I say that -- no, let me first ask

12     you a layman's question from the legal aspect.  Do you agree with me that

13     it is always easy to follow the trail of money because there is always a

14     trace left behind?

15        A.   Yes.  If it is recorded in proper records, it's always easy, and

16     those records are made available.  But if you are talking about following

17     the trail of cash, that is not always easy.

18        Q.   In your report you stated that financing of -- you claim that the

19     financing of the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina

20     functioned via the Social Accounting Service, in which period it was

21     actually derived from primary issue, that financing, that is.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you will agree with me that in such a situation if money is

24     being printed in one institution and that money is being distributed

25     somewhere via official state institutions, it is quite easy to follow the

Page 1524

 1     trail of such money.  I'm not talking about cash.

 2        A.   It should be at least, yes.

 3        Q.   Particularly so when these are public state institutions, the

 4     operation of which is regulated under a law which is a public document

 5     itself.

 6        A.   It depends, again, on whether the law is followed or not and

 7     whether proper records are kept.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Prior to the beginning of your testimony, we had

 9     certain corrections in your paper which were conveyed to us by Colleague

10     Saxon.  I believe it is in paragraph 19, a sentence in paragraph 19.  You

11     said that --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

13             MR. SAXON:  Perhaps if the page with this paragraph could be

14     called up on e-court so that Mr. Torkildsen could see it.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one minute.  It is page 19.  It

17     is coming up.

18        Q.   After the proofing notes compiled with you and the OTP in

19     preparing you to appear before this Chamber, it was said that after the

20     sentence "Slobodan Milosevic had no objections to money becoming

21     accessible via primary issue," this is the sentence which you consider

22     should be omitted from this report and should not be an integral part of

23     it.  Is my conclusion correct?  Do you agree with me that you decided to

24     change -- to change your report and this particular part after the

25     cross-examination by Slobodan Milosevic and the argumentation which he

Page 1525

 1     adduced to you in connection with the discussions at that particular

 2     session of the SFRY Presidency?

 3        A.   From what I can recollect from my previous testimony, it's that

 4     Mr. Milosevic was arguing that he left at lunchtime during these

 5     discussions and therefore could not object, as I have made a point of in

 6     the report.  So, yes, of course, if that was the case, I will have to go

 7     back on that.

 8        Q.   But do you agree with me that at that particular session, he did

 9     not advocate primary issue.  He was not in favour of it.

10        A.   What I'm stating here is that it's actually the result in the

11     end.  By looking at what happened later on, you see the consequences of

12     the politics that was actually -- that was actually applied in the coming

13     years.  But in this particular session, I agree with you that he did

14     not -- he did not say anything that he was specifically in favour of

15     primary -- the use of primary emissions.

16        Q.   Am I correct when I say that now you have become more precise in

17     respect of a specific matter which is not so stated in your report.

18     This, again, emanates, in my view, from the examination in the Milosevic

19     case, and that is when on transcript page 19044 you confirmed that there

20     had been no primary emission any more as of January 1994.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23             THE WITNESS:  At least --

24             MR. SAXON:  Simply a concern.  I'm sorry to interrupt.  In the

25     middle of that last question, again, my colleague said:  "This, again,

Page 1526

 1     emanates in my view from the examination in the Milosevic case ..." and

 2     then the transcript page is mentioned.  It just seems -- the record

 3     appears to be unclear whether we're hearing -- whether the evidence is

 4     Mr. Lukic's view or whether it's part of a question addressed to the

 5     witness.  That's my only concern.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, I'll be more precise.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You'll be more precise.  I have another question

 9     before you ask the next question.  My question would then also be

10     transcript page 19044, is this of the Milosevic trial?  Do we have a copy

11     of that page for the witness to see?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  We have inserted

15     it in e-court.  That is page 1D001548.  That is the document.  It is

16     under that number that the document has been inserted into e-court.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I was just going to say that shouldn't we

18     have disposed of P310, MFI, so that you can put it on the screen, but

19     then I see that it has moved.  Are you done with that previous document,

20     Exhibit P310, MFI?  You're done with that?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to use P310, MFI.  I am

22     going to use his work during my further interrogation.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let's see the relevant transcript.  That's

24     19004.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So 19044 is the official page of the

Page 1527

 1     transcript.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is 1900, not 044.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I need is 044.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure the registrar is getting there.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Registry for not

 6     having called up the page properly, the way it should be done.  It is the

 7     twentieth line.

 8        Q.   There you say -- you can read it.

 9             [In English] "Yes.  I am aware that the inflation was stabilised

10     in January 1994 when Governor Avramovic of the National Bank of

11     Yugoslavia actually pegged the dinar to the Deutschemark."

12             [Interpretation] And then the next page, Milosevic's question,

13     and you respond in line 3:

14             [In English] "... to finance budget deficit."

15             MR. SAXON:  We cannot see line 3, unfortunately.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   My question is:  Since in your work you never referred to when

18     the financing of Republika Srpska and the Republika Srpska Krajina from

19     the budget ended, you never say anything about that, do you agree with me

20     that after examination by Milosevic you realised that this was an

21     important matter which you should actually accentuate and also impress

22     upon this Trial Chamber?

23        A.   Yes, I agree that if I had had the annual accounts or the budgets

24     of the RS available for 1994 and 1995, that could have been of relevance,

25     yes.

Page 1528

 1        Q.   Without that particular fact you maintain the position, not

 2     having the budgets for 1994 and 1995, you maintain that the budget was no

 3     longer financed from primary issue after the introduction of this

 4     super-dinar, there was no more deficit financing, in other words.

 5        A.   At least it wasn't -- to a very large extent, it was something

 6     like -- almost like 10 per cent a year.  I have reviewed all the budgets

 7     for the FRY and the RSK for that period, and I do assume that the budgets

 8     of the RS would show the same picture for 1994 and 1995, as these other

 9     budgets that I have reviewed.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm a little confused.  You're saying,

11     Mr. Torkildsen, you have reviewed all the budgets for the FRY and the RSK

12     for that period, and you do assume that the budgets of the RS would show

13     the same picture for 1994 and 1995 as these other budgets that you have

14     reviewed.

15             I thought a little earlier you had indicated that -- it actually

16     was put to you that you didn't actually have access to the budgets for

17     1994 and 1995 for all these three entities.

18             THE WITNESS:  I have never seen the budgets for Republika Srpska,

19     but I have seen some of the budgets for these other entities, yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And on what basis would you then assume

21     that the 1994/1995 budgets of the Republika Srpska which you didn't see

22     would have had a 10 per cent allocation as the others had?

23             THE WITNESS:  I assume that on the basis -- because of the

24     previous year.  The previous years showed the same pattern for all three

25     entities.  Either we're talking about the FRY, the RS, and the SRK, the

Page 1529

 1     method of financing was the same.  So I then, as a result of that,

 2     assumed that that would also be the case for the RS, both for 1994 and

 3     for 1995.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not basing it on maybe having had sight of

 5     the FRY budgets for 1994 and 1995 indicating a 10 per cent allocation

 6     towards the RSK, even -- towards RS, even if you did not see the RS

 7     budgets.  You're not basing it on that?

 8             THE WITNESS:  No, I'm not.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             You may proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know what the hyperinflation, the rate was in percentages

13     when it was the highest, that is, towards the end of 1993, in the last

14     months of 1993, in the FRY?

15        A.   I know that it was extremely high, and I also made a table of

16     that in the end of my report outlining this.  We are talking here most

17     likely a thousand per cent a day, or it could even be higher.

18        Q.   And just in a couple of sentences for the benefit of us in the

19     courtroom understanding, what happened in January 1994?  Who prepared

20     this programme?  And what was actually done at that particular moment?

21     What was the point of that programme, its objective?

22        A.   Its objective was to stop the inflation, and it was carried out

23     under Governor Avramovic at the National Bank of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   Did you hear about him?  I mean, have you formed a professional

25     opinion on him?

Page 1530

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   I don't know whether my question can stem from the response I've

 3     just been given, but do you know that in January 1994 he was appointed

 4     Governor of the National Bank of Yugoslavia and that is when he embarked

 5     upon this monetary reform of the monetary system in Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interject, is the monetary reform of

 8     the monetary system of Yugoslavia the programme you're referring to in

 9     the previous question?  I was going to ask you what is that programme

10     you're talking about in -- if you look at page 92, from line 19 to 22,

11     you're talking of a programme there, and you lost me.  I'm not quite sure

12     what programme you're talking about.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to ask a few specific

14     questions about this programme which is called the programme of the

15     reconstruction of the monetary system and the financial stabilisation of

16     the SFRY.  Maybe I'm paraphrasing, but through the documents we'll be

17     going back to that programme.

18             But, Your Honours, if it is time now, because I will have another

19     topic to broach.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is, indeed, time.  Thank you very much.  You

21     have answered my question.

22             Mr. Torkildsen, we haven't finished with you.  It's time to

23     adjourn for the day.  You will have to come back tomorrow again at 9.00

24     in the morning.  Let me just warn you that you may not talk to anybody

25     about --

Page 1531

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar just reminded me that we don't sit

 3     tomorrow.  We will sit on Monday.  So you have to come back on Monday.

 4     Between now and then, you may not discuss this matter with anybody.

 5             Court adjourned to Monday, at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

 6     Same courtroom at a quarter past 2.00.  Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

 9                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.