1 Tuesday, 18 November 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everybody in the courtroom. This is case IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor
10 versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 And could we have appearances for the day, starting with the
14 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning, counsel.
15 Mark Harmon, Carolyn Edgerton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And for the Defence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honour. Daniela Tasic, Chad
20 Mair, and Milos Androvic, who are assisting myself, Gregor Guy-Smith and
21 Novak Lukic, for the Defence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 Just before we call the witness, I thought I must raise one or
24 two housekeeping matters which the Chambers would like to hear the views
25 of the parties about. It doesn't have to be today. If you're not ready,
1 you can think about it and come back to us.
2 First thing is wether or not the parties due intend going on a
3 site visit, and if so, at what stage of the trial.
4 Mr. Harmon.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we will think about that and get back
6 to Your Honours very quickly with our views.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honours, we would like
9 to express our position with regard to this matter very soon.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then I will not ask you how
12 The next item that I wanted to talk about relates to the 98 bis
13 stage of the case. In case Rule 98 bis will be made use of, depending on
14 what the Defence thinks about the case at that time, and if we should
15 move on to the Defence case, it is the Chamber's desire to shorten the
16 break as much as possible at that stage. It is the belief of this
17 Chamber that it shouldn't be -- it shouldn't take a whole motion to argue
18 why a 98 bis ruling must be made. It can be just mentioned very quickly
19 what it is that is alleged has not been proven and what counts, if any,
20 or if the whole case must fall apart. The Chamber will then take a day
21 or two to decide; and, quickly thereafter, if we have to go into the
22 Defence case, move on speedily into the Defence case. It shouldn't take
23 more than -- that whole break shouldn't take more than a week.
24 Are there any comments that the parties would like to make on
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With regard to the 98 bis motion rule
2 and the proposals of the sides, well, perhaps I can reserve the right to
3 express my position later on. My colleague Mr. Smith and myself will
4 discuss the matter. The Defence agrees and we think it would be good for
5 this to be made in oral form -- the arguments to be made in an oral form.
6 And given the scope of the Prosecution case that we have before us, I
7 believe that we will now need a certain period of time to prepare for
8 these oral submissions, and I believe that the Prosecution will also have
9 oral submissions to make. But I really believe that for the preparation
10 of the Defence case, as it now stands, and for the preparation of
11 Mr. Guy-Smith's case and in the light of the experience we have from
12 previous cases, I do believe that we will need, well, a significant
13 period of time, a significantly lengthy period of time that you referred
14 to, Judge Moloto.
15 Why do I say this? Well, because we in the courtroom are all
16 aware of the schedule planned for the Prosecution case which shows that
17 the case will be a lengthy one because of the testimony and the
18 transcripts that we have to deal with and the voluminous documents that
19 will be tendered into evidence, or that we expect to be tendered into
21 And, secondly, Your Honours, you are well aware of the fact that
22 this Defence team was formed fairly rapidly immediately prior to the
23 commencement of the trial. We've really been doing our utmost to keep up
24 with everything, and this was perhaps not possible in the pre-trial
25 phase. We've been doing everything we can to deal with the trial. I
1 have to say that the fact that we had a break in October has been of
2 assistance to us, and the fact that we're not sitting on Friday is also
3 of assistance because we really don't have a single weekend that we can
4 use for rest, and I can say this quite openly.
5 I don't expect that this team will be able to rest for a single
6 day even in the course of the Christmas period; and in the course of the
7 summer, regardless of the stage we arrive at, I think we will be working
8 continually in order to prepare for the Defence case. But given the
9 means at our disposal --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me interrupt you, Mr. Lukic. We've moved a
11 little far away from what we're talking about. We're talking about the
12 98 bis now. Can I suggest that you come back to the Chamber with what
13 you suggest would be a reasonable time for the -- to give you time to
14 prepare. That's the proposal of the Chamber. I would like you to come
15 back with your proposal.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any comments to make on that.
18 MR. HARMON: Our view, Your Honour, is that the submissions
19 should be oral, and it should not be lengthy written proceedings on 98
20 bis. Furthermore, we do not believe that the protracted break is
21 necessary, given the case is being analysed on an ongoing basis.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I thought.
23 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, if I might say one thing.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I take your suggestion in mind and I don't
3 disagree with Mr. Harmon with regard to the fact that the case is being
4 analysed on an ongoing basis. However, one of the things that is true,
5 which is what I think Mr. Lukic was getting to - and I will not take a
6 long time - is that most of the people who are working with us right now
7 and who are supporting us are interns and they will be gone. So we will
8 be losing a fair amount of our team, and we don't have, unfortunately,
9 the continuity of history that exists for the Prosecution.
10 So with regard to the analysis that's going on, we're in a
11 constant -- we're in a constant process of having to educate people as
12 well. I'm just putting that on the record so you can appreciate now one
13 of our concerns. But we will get back to you with regard to when an
14 appropriate amount of time would be -- or what an appropriate amount of
15 time would be, in our estimation.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. Let me reserve my
18 Okay. Let's call the witness.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 WITNESS: ROBERT DONIA
6 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
7 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you begin by stating your name for the
8 record, please.
9 A. Robert J. Donia.
10 Q. Thank you. I'd like to try and deal with our presentation today
11 thematically, and the first area I'd like to deal with will be your
12 curriculum vitae.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Could we please call up in that regard 65 ter
14 number 9212, 09212.
15 We're re-releasing that document now, Your Honour, and my
16 apologies. We've worked very hard to have the technology in order.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you still fail.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Only a bump in the road, one might say, Your
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Are you receiving anything, Madam Registrar,
22 because we've re-released again 9212. It may be something that we
23 actually have no control over, Your Honour. Let's see if we can explore
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to go to the old and trusted?
1 MS. EDGERTON: I'm ready to go to the old and trusted, but we've
2 been saved by the technological gods, I'm advised.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like you have.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Wonderful. Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, do you see a copy of the document on the screen in front of
6 you, one in English and one in Serbo-Croatian?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you recognise this document?
9 A. Yes, that's my curriculum vitae.
10 Q. All right. Could you tell us, is there any recent work or
11 affiliations to your curriculum vitae that is not contained in here that
12 you feel the Trial Chamber should be aware of?
13 A. Two. One is merely a continuation of a previous appointment, but
14 beginning in -- beginning again in January of 2009, I will be serving as
15 Visiting Professor of History at the University of Michigan
16 I was elected to the -- as a Corresponding Member of the Academy of
17 Sciences -- Arts and Sciences of Bosnia and Herzegovina about three weeks
19 Q. With respect to this second item you referred to, Corresponding
20 Member of the Academy of Arts
21 you tell us what that means effectively?
22 A. It is a recognition essentially of a level of scholarly
23 achievement to which is bestowed on perhaps several dozen scholars who
24 are from Bosnia-Herzegovina or have worked on topics related to
1 Q. And with these modifications or updates you've just spoken about,
2 could you otherwise confirm the accuracy of your curriculum vitae?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 MS. EDGERTON: With that, Your Honour, could I ask this be
5 admitted as a Prosecution exhibit, please?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so admitted. May it please be given an
7 exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P324, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, just to continue further, and perhaps we don't need to erase
12 that document from the screen because we may go back to it as we deal
13 with this theme, could I ask you, sir, how would you describe your
15 A. I'm an independent historian and consultant.
16 Q. And do you have in that field any area of specialisation in
18 A. Yes. My historical training and work is principally in the
19 history of the lands of the former Yugoslavia
20 twentieth, and twenty-first centuries, mainly social, political, and, to
21 a lesser degree, military history of those lands.
22 Q. And in respect to those lands of the former Yugoslavia, do you
23 consider yourself as having any more detailed focus or specialisation in
24 any one of those lands in particular?
25 A. Most of my work is on Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. And as a historian, what do you do? What does your craft consist
3 A. Principally writing history and also disseminating historical
4 knowledge through lectures, seminars, conferences, presentations to
5 various groups that need it for preparation of one sort or another for
6 their occupational work.
7 Q. Do you have a long-standing interest in the history of the former
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. How far does that interest date back?
11 A. It dates back to 1965 when I attended a summer seminar in
14 the history department at the University of Ljubljana
15 Q. So, if my math is correct, that's more than 40 years.
16 A. I believe, yes, that's right.
17 Q. Do you have any dealing with Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular
18 now? Do you have any family or other ties to the region?
19 A. No. I have no ethnic or family ties to the region.
20 Q. Have you frequently travelled there?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. Do you continue to do so?
23 A. Yes, I do. Three to four times a year for the past 14 years
25 Q. Always now in respect of Bosnia and Herzegovina, have you
1 conducted research there?
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. And what types of institutions or organs have you conducted
4 research at?
5 A. Principally the archives, various archives, in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, primarily in Sarajevo but also in other cities and
7 towns of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in addition to information, documentation,
8 about that region housed in archives in Belgrade, Zagreb, Budapest
10 Q. Do you have any command of the Serbo-Croatian language?
11 A. Yes, I do. I would characterise my speaking command of it as
12 very good, my reading command of it as very good, and my writing of it is
14 Q. Have you previously produced reports for this Tribunal in
15 connection with events in the former Yugoslavia?
16 A. Yes, I have. I believe the list of them is at -- toward the end
17 of my curriculum vitae.
18 Q. Have you testified previously before this Tribunal?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. On behalf of the Prosecution or the Defence?
21 A. I've testified on behalf of the Prosecution.
22 Q. Have you ever been asked by any Defence team to testify in a case
23 before the Tribunal?
24 A. No. I've never been approached to either testify or prepare a
1 Q. Have you taught social and political history of
3 A. Yes. That's been part of my teaching work at the University of
5 late 1980s -- I'm sorry, 1970s, from about 1975 to 1981, at both the
6 university -- Ohio State University
7 Q. And I see from your curriculum vitae you lecture on the same
8 subject. How recently have you done that?
9 A. Well, I give lectures frequently to various audiences. I
10 recently did it ten days ago.
11 Q. Now, is that nationally or internationally? And by "nationally,"
12 I'm referring to the United States, given that I see you're an American
14 A. Yes. I've lectured at a wide variety of universities in the
15 United States, or given a lecture, and given conference papers and
16 reports at conferences and universities in Sarajevo
17 Q. I note also in your CV there's a heading called "Peace-keeping
18 Training," and that's on page 5 of the English and page 7 of the B/C/S.
19 I note there you provide briefings for American military units heading to
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo as a part of SFOR and KFOR.
21 What do those briefings include?
22 A. They consist a broad historical introduction -- historical and
23 cultural introduction to Bosnia
24 appropriate, designed for the command element of the unit that's being
25 dispatched as a part of those UN-sanctioned peace-keeping forces. The
1 one in Bosnia
2 American contribution to that is now limited to a NATO headquarters in
4 the overall NATO headquarters.
5 Q. I stand corrected. Thank you very much. We talked a few minutes
6 ago about reports you produced for the Tribunal. Have you produced
7 reports on or relating to the social and political history of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina for any other outside organisations or agencies or
10 A. Yes. I prepared a report for the Canadian Department of Justice,
11 and occasionally prepare reports and make presentations for the US
12 Department of State.
13 Q. Now, just a question about your dealings with the Yugoslav
14 community generally and perhaps the scholarly community. Have you had
15 dealings with the Serbian academic community during the course of your
17 A. Oh, I certainly have. My initial research venture to Sarajevo
18 the full year of research that I did from 1974 to 1975, I worked under
19 the mentorship of Professor Milorad Macic, who was a prominent Serbian
20 historian, then living in Sarajevo
21 Sciences of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time and of -- now of the Serbian
22 Academy of Sciences
23 and had quite a lot of dealings with -- discussions with Serbian
24 historians there, and pay a lot of attention to the literature that comes
25 out of the community of Serbian historians, both in Serbia itself and in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I've also edited and written an introduction for a
2 book by a Bosnian Serb which is listed on my CV.
3 Q. From the names on your CV, I would guess that -- or I would
4 suppose that would be the book entitled "Political Memoirs of a Bosnian
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. By an individual by the name of Mirko Pejnovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who is Mr. Pejnovic?
10 A. Mr. Pejnovic is today the Dean of the Faculty of Political
11 Science at the University of Sarajevo
12 until summer of 1994, he was a member of the Presidency of
14 Q. Now, just relating to books, I see you're a published author; and
15 those books which are noted on page 1 of your CV, have they received
16 critical recognition from the Yugoslav community?
17 A. Yes. All of them have, yes.
18 Q. From -- including from the Serbian community?
19 A. From Serbs and -- yes, from Serbs from -- it has received
20 critical assessment, indeed, from many different historians and reviewers
21 of all ethnicities in the former Yugoslavia
22 Q. To move on, then --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies. I'm unclear what the term
1 "critical" means. It's a word that has a number of different tones and
2 shades. It could be critical from the standpoint of disapproval. It
3 could be critical from the standpoint of an incisive understanding of
4 what the author in this particular situation has produced. I just wonder
5 if we can get some clarification with regard to that issue so it doesn't
6 hang in the air as a vagary.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Fair enough, Your Honour. Perhaps I could ask
9 another question in that regard.
10 Q. These books that you've written, are you aware as to whether
11 they've received -- as to whether they've been positively accepted by the
12 Yugoslav scholarly community?
13 A. Well, there's no Yugoslav scholarly community today, so I don't
14 know that I could answer that at that level. It has been positive --
15 they have been positively received by scholars from Serbian, Croatian,
16 and Bosnian Muslim or Bosniak provenance, but not unanimously by any
18 Q. And speaking of the groups, does that apply to groups who are
19 resident in the United States as well as groups who are resident in the
20 former Yugoslavia
21 A. Yes. Reviews from all those groups have been largely positive.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, is Mr. Guy-Smith to understand
23 that "critical" means positive?
24 MS. EDGERTON: In -- that was my original intention, and I strove
25 to clarify that with the later question.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What you wanted to ask the witness was whether his
2 books had been critiqued, which is different from criticised.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. Perhaps we could move on to the two reports which form the basis
7 of your testimony today.
8 MS. EDGERTON: And I would like to ask Madam Registrar to call
9 them up so that Dr. Donia can see the first page of those reports, the
10 first one being 65 ter number 02169.
11 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see this next document on the screen in front
12 of you in English and in B/C/S as well now?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Do you recognise that document?
15 A. Yes. This is a document that I prepared in 2002 for the -- under
16 a commission from the Prosecution for the trial of Mr. Krajisnik. I
17 believe I testified about this report further in 2005.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Moving on to the next report, again I only need
19 the first page displayed. That would be 65 ter number 02290.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there anything you would like to do with this
21 65 ter document before we move on to the next one?
22 MS. EDGERTON: Taking in mind Your Honours' guidelines from your
23 decision on the report of Dr. Donia, I would like to deal with that at
24 the end of his testimony, I think.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 02290 is the next 65 ter number.
3 Q. Do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you?
4 A. Yes. This is a report that I prepared for the Prosecution in the
5 case of Mr. Dragomir Milosevic in 2006, and was questioned about this
6 report in July of 2007 --
7 Q. And --
8 A. -- I'm sorry. March of 2007, I believe.
9 Q. And just, for the record, could you tell us the title of this
11 A. "From Elections to Stalemate: The Making of the Sarajevo
13 Q. I omitted for the record to ask for the title of your -- the
14 first report that was displayed for you, 65 ter 02169. Do you recall the
16 A. No.
17 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies. Could we have it displayed again,
18 please, 02169, just for completeness of the record.
19 THE WITNESS: "The Origins of Republika Srpska, 1990-1992 - A
20 Background Report."
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that these reports were prepared as a
23 result of -- on a commission from the Prosecution in those cases. Do you
24 recall whether they were prepared as a result of some kind of written
1 A. Neither one of these reports was prepared in response to a
2 written mandate, no.
3 Q. What were the objectives, then, of these reports?
4 A. I was asked by the Prosecution to prepare a report which
5 explained and enlightened the background of the major developments,
6 events, and institutions referenced in the indictment.
7 Q. From that, then, perhaps I could take you one step further and
8 ask if you could describe, then, the nature of these two reports. Are
9 they similar in nature or dissimilar?
10 A. They are similar in their fundamental structure. Each is an
11 empirically based narrative account, topically organised, of the major
12 developments and institutions pertaining to these two topics.
13 Q. How did you go about preparing, then? Is there any theoretical
14 approach or a methodology that underlines the way you prepared these
16 A. Yes. The method of preparation is essentially one of interaction
17 between myself as a writer and the documents on which the account is
18 based. Now, I say "interactive" in the sense that I seek always to try
19 to -- I have sought in these reports to take into account a very broad
20 spectrum of information and documentation, and to then formulate the
21 specific narrative in response to the best available documentation and
22 the density of that documentation, the verifiability of it, the richness
23 of the documentary record, and, the, let's say, the independence of
24 that -- the reliability of the sources.
25 There is, furthermore, a viewpoint, or perhaps one could call it
1 a theory, underpinning these reports which is the view that nationalities
2 and national movements are constructed entities, rather than primordial
3 ones. That is a debate that has flourished in a number of disciplines
4 over the past perhaps three decades, with the view that I share being
5 that ethnic groups and national movements are dynamic, constantly
6 changing phenomena that will mutate over time, depending on the actions
7 of the elites that form them and lead them. So they're very much
8 contemporary human creations, as opposed to those people who see them
9 primordial, ever-lasting entities.
10 What that means in practice is that I reject the often-seen
11 national accounts by Bosnian Muslims, Serbs, or Croats that everything
12 that happened was just a re-run of something from the Middle Ages.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. To go back to methodology in a different way, you mentioned the
17 broad base of material you deal with. What's your criteria for selecting
18 the documents from this broad base of material that you use to write your
20 A. Well, first of all, relevance. It has to actually apply directly
21 to the narrative that I'm writing; second, reliability, either as
22 determined by internal content of the document and/or external
23 assessments of the source of the document; third would be its
24 inter-connectability, its verifiability, consistency with other documents
25 of the time and source; and, finally, richness. I think the value of the
1 document, its appropriateness to be included as a citation or even
2 quoted, depends on its ability to illuminate the topic that I'm
4 Q. How do you determine reliability? How do you make an assessment
5 of a document's reliability?
6 A. Well, there are two ways one can do that. I think one does that,
7 and that is, first of all, to look at the source. The words of an actor
8 in a particular event clearly bear more weight and have greater validity
9 than the words of a third- or fourth-hand person or someone who is not in
10 a position to directly observe events. So that character of the source
11 is the first important thing.
12 Then the second important thing would be the assessment of --
13 from the outside of the value of the value of document from other
14 documents and sources that were generated at the time.
15 Q. Now, just in terms of sources, then, going back again to these
16 reports, can you outline what collections and selections you relied on
17 for the preparation of these reports, dealing first with the report
18 entitled "Origins of the Republika Srpska"?
19 A. Well, I think I could probably address the two of them together.
20 It is voluminous. It consists of a survey that I have made over the
21 years of the periodical press from several different publications in
22 several different parts of the former Yugoslavia, surveys of
23 documentation that I've been either provided by the Office of the
24 Prosecutor or have gleaned from those documents put into evidence in
25 other cases, documents from the United Nations and other international
1 organisations, and those people who've had first-hand accounts of events
2 there. It's a very voluminous collection of documents that constitutes,
3 let's say, the base from which the reports were prepared.
4 Q. And, more specifically, I note that your first report, "The
5 Origins of the Republika Srpska," and to a lesser extent, but it also
6 refers in your second report, but you refer to transcripts of sessions of
7 the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina and later the
8 Bosnian Serb Assembly, the RS Assembly.
9 A. Yes. That's a key source of information and evidence in the
10 report on the "Origins of the Republika Srpska."
11 Q. As a historian, what relevance was that collection to the
12 preparation of these reports?
13 A. It is, as far as I have been able to identify, the best
14 collection of the thinking and expressions of intent by the Bosnian Serb
15 nationalist leadership, leaders, that I have found. Many of the sessions
16 were held under the presumption of confidentiality. Others were not but
17 many of them were, and, consequently, many of the expressions appear to
18 be remarkably candid. So it's a very valuable source, and I would rate
19 it at the top, really, or near the top of the available sources about the
20 making of the Republika Srpska, particularly the thinking and attitudes
21 of those who actually did the creating.
22 Q. In your second report, "The Making of the Siege of Sarajevo,"
23 there was, in fact -- or I saw, in fact, some evidence of other or
24 additional sources you consulted that weren't noted in the first report.
25 A. Yes, that would be true, certainly.
1 Q. And you speak to those sources. What did you consult?
2 A. Well, I consulted the United Nations reports, the reports of the
3 newspaper -- principally the newspaper Oslobodjenje which was published
4 continuously during the war within the city of Sarajevo, the interviews
5 that I conducted with a number of participants and leaders, and,
6 additionally, some of the documentation that was provided to me by the
7 Office of the Prosecutor regarding some of the activities before the war
8 in various municipalities of the city.
9 Q. I note, in this last answer, you've stipulated that you consulted
10 newspaper reports, principally the newspaper Oslobodjenje. As a
11 historian, what value or relevance do you attribute to this periodic
12 press from the time period?
13 A. The periodical press from that time has, I think, a particular
14 value for a couple reasons.
15 Number one, in the socialist period, all these newspapers had a
16 founding organisation, either the municipality or the city of Sarajevo
17 even the League of Communists, and, as such, was mandated to be a
18 newspaper of record. Journalists and editors maintained that commitment
19 to be a newspaper of record even as they developed some very opinionated
20 content on their editorial page.
21 Second, we have in the periodical press a lot of on-site
22 investigative reporting. People who were trained to note with their eyes
23 and ears what took place, who said what, and how to pen it in a way that
24 conveyed to a reader the genuine sense of what the atmosphere was like
25 and what the players said, are just throughout the periodical press of
1 not only Sarajevo
3 Q. I have two questions based on that. First of all, what's a
4 "newspaper of record"? What do you mean by that?
5 A. A newspaper of record notion is that the newspaper will print,
6 often without editing, a press release, a speech, the content of a
7 resolution or memorandum, in its columns.
8 Q. Then, to go back to the question I initially asked you, as a
9 historian, then, what value do you place on this periodic press you
10 described from this period?
11 A. Well, it does, really, for me two things. It gives me a great
12 deal of insight into not just what happened but how it happened, why it
13 happened, what the thinking of the actors was. And, second, it gives me
14 a sense of sequence and progression because a newspaper typically follows
15 a story for many days, weeks, or even years; and, consequently, it's a
16 very solid source of the evolution of people's thinking or the
17 institutions and players that were examining.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 Now I'll move on to some areas more directly linked to portions
20 of your report?
21 MS. EDGERTON: But at this stage and with my friend
22 Mr. Guy-Smith's -- subject to my friend Mr. Guy-Smith's permission, I'd
23 like to offer Dr. Donia copies of these reports as they were filed with
24 my friend in the Chambers, so that he might have them to refer to them
25 during the course of his testimony.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Hard copy?
3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excellent. Wonderful idea. Yes, absolutely.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, Mr. Registrar. Two copies go to Dr. Donia;
6 that is, two reports, one copy of each. Thank you.
7 Q. So now to begin, I'd like to go to the report on the "Origins of
8 the Republika Srpska," pages 20 and 21 in English and 18 and 19 in B/C/S.
9 There you make note of the differing views of the nationalist
10 parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the period leading up to the multi-party
11 elections as regards the nature of the Socialist Republic
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship to Yugoslavia.
13 Have you found that -- those passages?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you in a position to explain the SDS party's view in this
16 regard, in regard to the nature of the Socialist Republic
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship to Yugoslavia?
18 A. Yes. The SDS
19 a federal Yugoslav state with the goal of strengthening the federation;
20 that is, they wanted either the status quo or stronger links between the
21 various federal states and the centre.
22 The SDS
23 disintegrated or federal Yugoslavia
24 wished to be part of a Serbian state, a state in which all Serbs lived.
25 Q. Two questions. One I should have asked you a little bit earlier.
1 Could you tell the Trial Chamber, what was the SDS?
2 A. The SDS
3 Demokratske Akcije, which was formed in July of 1990 to compete in the
4 first multi-party elections, democratic elections, in November of that
6 Q. When you say "Serbian Democratic Party," it's the Serbian
7 Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. Yes. There was an SDS
9 Q. Who was the head of the SDS
10 A. Radovan Karadzic was its president.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, just to go back to the position you've
12 articulated, it seems to contemplate two possibilities; and I'd just like
13 to know, were they always expressed as backup or alternative
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this time, I would ask --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I would ask that Ms. Edgerton pay attention
18 to what is potentially is a leading question. She can ask what was the
19 various positions as opposed to suggesting an answer as to where she
20 wants to go. I'm asking for caution more than for an actual objection
21 yet in terms of a totally leading question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
24 Yes, Your Honour, I can go back to page 23, line 12, where
25 Dr. Donia noted: "The SDS
1 option," and ask the question this way: Dr. Donia, you said earlier that
2 the SDS
3 federal Yugoslavia
4 a Serbian state.
5 Q. I'd simply like to know: Is that how the relationship or the
6 envision of the relationship was always expressed, as a backup.
7 A. It was expressed as a backup until such time as it appeared that
8 federal Yugoslavia
9 be transformed. That came in very late 1991, perhaps late December 1991,
10 and the early couple of months of 1992. At that point, the first option
11 having become unviable, the second backup solution became the first one,
13 The other thing to be said, I think, is that the backup,
14 option B, was less clearly -- there was less agreement on exactly the
15 form of that backup option among the Bosnian Serb leaders and Serb
16 leaders generally than there was about the initial position about
17 maintaining federal Yugoslavia
18 Q. Perhaps we could explore the articulations of these notions.
19 MS. EDGERTON: And in that regard, could I call up 65 ter 6686,
21 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see a document in Cyrillic and one in English
22 on your screen in front of you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recognise this document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What is it?
2 A. It was a document prepared in November of 1990, just after the
3 declaration of the creation of the Serbian National Council in which
4 the -- Karadzic spelled out the fundamental position of the party toward
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia
6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I take us all down to heading III, which is
7 the bottom of the first page in English, and I think -- yes. It appears
8 in part on the bottom of the first page in Serbo-Croatian, and then we'll
9 have to go over to the second page.
10 Q. Dr. Donia, could you have a look at the heading III, which begins
11 with the sentence "The will of the Serbian people ..."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And tell me if you have any comment with regard to this statement
14 based on your earlier testimony?
15 A. Karadzic here essentially articulates the position that the
16 federal unit is necessary based on the notion that Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 consists of sovereign peoples.
18 Q. Is this statement in paragraph III consistent with what you've
19 articulated as being the position of the SDS as regards the Socialist
20 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship with Yugoslavia
21 A. Yes, it is. The second part of this -- well, part III and
22 paragraph IV go into, in rather vague terms, the backup option to which
23 I've referred; that is, what would happen to Serbs should federal
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just a bit unclear. I take it that what the
3 witness is doing is interpreting the paragraph, and the reason I'm asking
4 the question is because I'm not seeing the language of "sovereign
5 people." I see "sovereign and equal nations" and I see "the Serbian
6 people," and I see "Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and other nations." I'm just
7 curious as to whether or not what we're having occur here is an
8 interpretation of the document, or whether or not he is indicating that
9 this is, in fact, what the document itself says. Just so I'm clear.
10 I'm trying to make sure that I understand precisely what the
11 witness is alluding to here, since he used the term "essentially," and
12 considering that we're dealing with the issue of, as the witness put it,
13 concerns about what I will call the primordial nature of the human being.
14 I'm sure he's appreciative of the distinction between peoples and
15 nations. I want to make sure that our language is somewhat specific.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I can clarify this with the witness now, if Your
18 Honour wishes; but, properly, I would submit it's a matter that
19 Mr. Guy-Smith can raise in cross-examination.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just trying to make life easy. I'm happy to
21 do it the other way.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Because, in fact, you're really not
23 objecting. You are wanting to tell the witness what words to use, which
24 I find a little difficult, and I think you can clarify that in
25 cross-examination, Mr. Guy-Smith. If you see any fundamental difference
1 between the word "peoples" and "nations," it's a matter for
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine. Thank you so much.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. Now, this notion that you've described, Dr. Donia, as articulated
7 in 6686 --
8 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, before I forget myself, Your Honours,
9 could I ask that 6686 be marked as an exhibit, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
11 given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P325, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
15 Q. Now, this notion that we've -- you've described, Dr. Donia, and
16 we've seen articulated in Exhibit P325, have you seen evidence in your
17 research that would illustrate this notion was common to both SDS leaders
18 and authorities in power in Serbia
19 A. Yes. There are -- I've seen several speeches or statements by
20 President Milosevic that take essentially the same position.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Could I call up, please, 65 ter 2247.07, please,
22 2247.07. This document, for everyone's information, is an extract,
23 page 28, from a book by Srdjan Radulovic, entitled "Sudbina Krajine."
24 Q. Dr. Donia, what does "Sudbina Krajine" mean?
25 A. The Fate of Krajina.
1 Q. Dr. Donia, are you familiar with Srdjan Radulovic is?
2 A. Yes. He was a journalist/correspondent who covered the
3 developments in Croatia
4 Politika. I'm not sure of the newspaper that he worked for.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Now, on the B/C/S copy, the paragraph I'd like to
6 bring your attention to is the final paragraph on the page; and in the
7 English translation, I'd like you to go, please, to page 3.
8 But now, unfortunately, we have -- or I have two English page 3s
9 on my screen, so if you can try and keep the B/C/S one on the screen.
10 Thank you very much.
11 Q. Dr. Donia, I'd like to take your attention to the paragraph at
12 the top of this page 3 of the English translation, where you see
13 reference to a statement by Slobodan Milosevic on -- at an enlarged
14 session of the Presidency on the eve of the Serbian elections.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you have a look at that paragraph, please.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I note this is a document you referred to in your report. Do you
19 have any comment on whether this statement by Slobodan Milosevic is
20 consistent with the notion that you've described as being held by the SDS
22 A. Yes. In this statement, Milosevic says that the first -- the
23 preferred solution is a democratic federation. He also addresses a
24 backup alternative to that, which he articulates as this very widely used
25 slogan, "the Serbian people want to live in a single state." He, in this
1 manner, doesn't, as I said, be terribly precise about what that
2 alternative means, but it's clear that the -- that's the alternative in
3 the event that a federation is not accepted by other parties.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Could I submit this, please, as a further
6 Prosecution exhibit, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is made as an exhibit. May it please be
8 given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P326, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. If we could move on, please, to 65 ter
12 number 2234. And in the Serbo-Croatian version that's on the right-hand
13 side of the screen, the item to highlight is the paragraph in the box on
14 the top left-hand corner that mentions the word "Poker." Sorry, top
15 left-hand corner. That's right.
16 Q. Dr. Donia, do you recognise the document in front of you?
17 A. Yes. This is a page from the Banja Luka newspaper Glas, or
18 Voice, which was the probably second most widely read newspaper in the
19 former Yugoslavia
21 Q. Now, in the English translation of the article entitled "Otvoreni
22 Poker," I'd like us to go down towards the bottom of page 1, two-thirds
23 of the way down. I'd like you to look at the sentence that begins
24 with -- it's a little more than two-thirds of the way down in the
25 English. It begins with "According to Karadzic ..."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if you could have a look at that sentence and then please
3 indicate to Mr. Registrar when you're prepared to go over to the next
5 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, the B/C/S -- corresponding B/C/S
6 paragraph should be just on the left-hand side. Thank you. It's a bit
7 difficult to describe, but it's almost opposite the bolded part on the
8 right-hand side of the page, and it begins with the sentence "Svi Srbi."
9 Perfect. Thank you.
10 Q. It's just at the top of your screen.
11 A. Yes. "According to Karadzic, all Serbs have one goal, which is
12 to live in a common state." He is here expressing the, I would say,
13 overall objective Serbs, preferably within Yugoslavia. Then he expresses
14 the backup goal, which is then in a Greater Serbia.
15 Just to emphasise, these are -- this is a description provided by
16 the journalist Gordan Truhelj, who is a veteran journalist covering
17 political developments in Bosnian Krajina. His analysis of this was to
18 note that the Greater Serbia option was put forward at the meeting, first
19 presented as an official choice and then - go to the next page - always
20 presented as an alternative to Yugoslavia
21 But clearly stated, this relationship between the decline of the
22 Yugoslav option, should that occur, the more viable the option of a
23 Greater Serbia
24 this speech of Karadzic in Banja Luka two days before.
25 Q. Do you attribute any particular significance to this report?
1 A. It is a report on an unusual speech, in that the term "Greater
3 Karadzic; and the occasion itself which involves Serbs from Knin, from
4 the Krajina in Croatia
5 analysis of the relationship between these options in the description of
6 this experience of, I think, a perceptive journalist.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, could I ask, please, that this be
8 marked as the next exhibit.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P327, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Q. I wonder if we could move forward in time from there to events in
15 October 1991, which you referred to in --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to ask, since it looks like you're
17 moving into a slightly new topic, wouldn't that be a convenient time?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, and I apologise for not noting
19 the time; but, indeed, it would be.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take the break, then, and come back at a
21 quarter to 11.00. Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
1 Q. Dr. Donia, what I'd like to do is move forward in time now to an
2 Assembly session of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
3 middle of October 1991, a session that actually began at the end of the
4 first week of October and culminated in events on the night of the
5 15th of October.
6 Are you familiar with this session?
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. Do you recall whether or not it was televised?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. Have you had occasion to see the broadcast or later copies of the
12 A. I've seen both the videotape of the proceedings -- I did not see
13 the broadcast at the time it was transmitted, but I've seen a videotape
14 of it since then and transcripts of the session.
15 Q. Have you followed media reports, printed media reports, of events
16 that took place that night?
17 A. Yes. I've examined a number of media reports of the session.
18 Q. Could you tell us, then, in a nutshell, in summary fashion, what
19 happened that night? Was it a significant night for the republic as a
21 A. Yes. It was a watershed event, I think, in most people's
22 assessment, and mine as well. The session had been convened to arrive at
23 a negotiating position for Bosnia-Herzegovina in peace talks then
24 underway in The Hague
25 groups presented draft resolutions defining the platform for those
1 negotiations and a memorandum of sovereignty which was presented by the
2 HDZ and SDA leaders.
3 In the course of the long debates of the evening of the 14th of
4 October, Radovan Karadzic made a particularly pointed speech that aroused
5 a great deal of response in the other delegates present. Subsequent to
6 that speech, the chairman of the -- or president of the Assembly, Momcilo
7 Krajisnik, dissolved the Assembly -- I'm sorry, not dissolved, but
8 adjourned the Assembly. Then Mariofil Ljubic, who was the vice-president
9 of the Assembly, reconvened it with the delegates of the SDA and HDZ only
10 remaining in the auditorium.
11 They subsequently passed a memorandum of sovereignty and a
12 platform which expressed those parties' approach to the negotiations and,
13 as a part of that, the nature of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Now, just to go back now to develop some of the points you've
15 made in this summary, could you explain, first of all, who the organs
16 you've described -- sorry, let me ask you the question this way:
17 If you go back to page 33, line 12, you mentioned HDZ and SDA
18 leaders. What was the HDZ and what was the SDA?
19 A. These were two national parties that were founded in the summer
20 of 1990 in preparation for the November elections. The HDZ was the
21 Croatian Democratic Community. It drew votes almost exclusively from
22 Croatian -- Bosnians of Croatian nationality, bore the same name as a
23 party in Croatia
24 appealed to and drew votes from almost exclusively Bosnian Muslim
25 constituents. It was headed by Alija Izetbegovic.
1 Q. Now, this platform and memorandum you've mentioned, are you
2 familiar with those two documents?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Could I then ask that 65 ter 9122 be displayed,
5 please, 9122. Would you re-release, please. We'll just wait for a
6 moment until the original - there we go - is loaded.
7 Q. Could you see the documents on the screen in front of you,
8 Dr. Donia?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us what the B/C/S document that you see in front
11 of you is?
12 A. The B/C/S document is a page from Oslobodjenje of 15 October 1991
13 which carries a story in the upper left-hand corner about the session
14 itself. And in the right-hand two columns, it carries the text of
15 proposed resolutions submitted by the three principal contenders in this
16 discussion. At the top the -- I can't see it quite clearly --
17 Q. Can I interrupt you for a moment. Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Do you think you could enlarge the box in the
19 B/C/S on the top right-hand corner, which begins with the title
20 "Za Suverenu BiH."
21 Q. Sorry, please continue. Have I asked them to enlarge the article
22 you want to refer to?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. This is the draft memorandum of the SDA and HDZ which was passed
1 with, as far as I can tell, no significant changes, in that, at about
2 2.30 in the morning on the 15th of October, the document that we're
3 looking at is the memorandum. As I indicated, there was a separate
4 document which was the platform for the negotiating position of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But this memorandum articulates the position of
6 these two parties, and then after the vote of the Assembly, that the
7 future arrangements for Bosnia-Herzegovina must include the Serbian and
8 Croatian republics, and that Bosnia
9 with both in the same manner.
10 It also states that the representatives of Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 will not attend sessions of the federal Yugoslav institutions that are
12 not attended by representatives of all other republics.
13 In the first paragraph, it cites Amendment 60 to the Constitution
14 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was passed in February 1990, and made this
15 nuanced but very significant change in the constitutional formulation to
16 say that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a democratic sovereign state of equal
18 Q. Was this formulation that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a democratic
19 sovereign state of equal citizens, in your mind, consistent with the
20 notion of the SDS
21 A. No. It was diametrically opposed to it. The point becomes very
22 clear when you look at the wording of the platform in which the -- these
23 two parties adopt the position that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a civic state,
24 that is, a state of its citizens, without reference to the sovereignty of
25 its peoples, and, therefore, should be governed by majority rule and
1 equal rights for all citizens, as opposed to the SDS position that
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state of three sovereign peoples.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Before I move on, could I ask that this document
4 be marked as the next exhibit, please, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
6 exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P328, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Could we turn now to 65 ter number 09009.01,
10 which, for everyone's information, is a transcript of the speech that
11 Mr. Karadzic made which this witness has referred to earlier.
12 Your indulgence for a moment while I make a note, Your Honour.
13 Q. Are you familiar with this speech, Dr. Donia?
14 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic's speech to the Assembly in the early
15 hours of 15 October 1991
16 Q. Have you found in this speech reflections of the view that you've
17 just articulated in page 36, lines 10 and 11, that the SDS position was
18 that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state of three sovereign peoples?
19 A. Yes. I'm having trouble seeing the full English page here. I
20 think that --
21 MS. EDGERTON: Could we scroll down, please. Could we scroll
22 down in the English copy, please, and then in the B/C/S copy. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. About halfway through the last paragraph on
24 that page in the English, which the sentence begins with the word
25 "But ..." which is in about line 7: "But you have no way to get it, nor
1 have you the way to realise it later on, because all people are
2 sovereign, Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim."
3 MS. EDGERTON: And, for the record, the B/C/S of that sentence is
4 in approximately the same position in the last paragraph, halfway
5 through; and if I'm not mistaken, it begins with the sentence
6 "Nemate nikakgov nacina ..."
7 THE WITNESS: Da. Yes.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Could we scroll over to the next page, please, to
9 give Dr. Donia an opportunity to review the document in full.
10 THE WITNESS: I'd like to go to a sentence that's in the
11 bottom -- about the bottom half of that page.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Bottom half of the first paragraph?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. Bottom half of the page as a whole?
16 A. Bottom of the first paragraph is good, in this section that
17 begins: "And one of the most flagrant things in all that you are doing
18 is that you are trying to describe the acts of Slovenia and Croatia
20 He then goes on to accuse the rival parties of wanting to see
22 Muslims of Bosnia
23 Q. And do you interpret anything from this remark?
24 A. Well, he believes that the -- he is alleging that the Muslims and
25 Croats, with this resolution, are going to follow the course toward
1 independence for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Now, perhaps I can ask you a question by taking us over to the
3 next page, number 3, of both the B/C/S and English.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Approximately halfway down the page, just over
5 halfway down the page in both documents, if you can stop with the
6 scrolling in the English, I'll just take a moment to find it.
7 When it's one whole paragraph per page, Your Honour, you can
8 appreciate it's somewhat difficult.
9 Q. The sentence in any case in the English version begins with:
10 "You want to achieve in The Hague ..."
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please have a look at that sentence, which continues
13 down -- or that passage, which continues down to the sentence which ends
14 with"... not for other people as well."
15 And while you do that, I'll try and identify where this provision
16 is in the B/C/S version.
17 A. I think this is one of the clearest articulations of this
18 principal so strongly held to by Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb
19 nationalist leaders that the sovereignty of the peoples of Bosnia and
21 life. "You want to achieve in The Hague," and I'll just go down to the
22 sentence that says: "Sovereign people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
23 say for themselves what they want, but not for other people as well. It
24 was one of the conclusions made in this Assembly."
25 There's a statement that these are -- the peoples are essentially
1 billiard ball type objects with -- they're completely self-contained and
2 cannot have any influence on other peoples because of their sovereignty.
3 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask your assistance, Mr. Registrar. In
4 the B/C/S version, could you scroll up in the page, because I don't see
5 that passage displayed just yet. If you could stop now.
6 Q. Dr. Donia, because of your facility in the language, perhaps you
7 could assist us in identifying the same passage for the record in this
9 A. Let's see.
10 Q. Does it begin with the sentence, "Vi hocete u Haagu ..." on --
11 A. I'm sorry. I'm just not able to put my finger on this
13 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies, Your Honour, for this, but I'm
14 aiming for precision as much as possible.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. "Mr. Izetbegovic in The Hague is --" strike
19 The sentence that says "Suvereni norodi u Bosni i Herzegovini" is
20 part of the passage. If you see "Sovereign people in Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 can each say for themselves what they want," which I just cited, that is
22 in the B/C/S about one-third of the way down this page, as it's currently
24 MS. EDGERTON:
25 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Donia.
1 Now, just one further question about this transcript, or,
2 generally speaking, your recollection of the session, you mentioned
3 earlier that Dr. Karadzic made a pointed speech. Do you recall him
4 saying anything that incurred a public reaction?
5 A. Yes. His next to last thought paragraph in this speech ended
6 with a very pointed exclamation or statement about the possibility of the
7 extinguishing of the Bosnian Muslims.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Before we move on to the next exhibit, could I
9 please ask that this document be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
11 an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P329, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MS. EDGERTON: And now with everyone's indulgence, I would like
15 to play the transcript of -- to play the video of the portion that
16 Dr. Donia has just referred to.
17 This will be played in Sanction, Your Honours; and for the sake
18 of the record, we'll only be seeing the English version of what the
19 speaker's saying on the Sanction programme. So I'm wondering if I could
20 ask, and this is a very short clip, I'm wondering if I could ask the
21 indulgence of our colleagues in the interpreters booth to read out the
22 English so we have a full record, an appropriate record, of what's being
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure they heard you. I see they are nodding.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Please play the clip.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You want in The Hague to achieve
3 for this to be the third or fourth republic which will not stay in
5 only for yourself. Sovereign people in Bosnia-Herzegovina can each say
6 for themselves what they want, but not for other people as well. It was
7 one of the conclusions made by this Assembly. We shall disable you to
8 carry out violence against Serbian people, constitutional violence, in
9 front of local and international public, because after -- we won't be
10 consulted if we come into the situation in which Slovenia and Croatia
11 in, especially Croatia
12 would be 1.000 times worse than there.
13 "I have to send this message to all the delegates. Gentlemen,
14 believe me, even if you would make something tonight, even though you
15 have no way of making it, because we have the constitutional manner to
16 prevent you from voting. But even if you would make something, that
17 would be the source of shame for Mr. Izetbegovic and in The Hague. It
18 would also be a great shame for the image of this parliament in Europe
19 and for all these peoples in Yugoslavia
20 especially your embarrassment, Croats and Muslims, who are loyal to this
21 idea, your shame and your proof of how much you respect sovereignty and
22 equality of Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 "I am asking you one more time - I am not threatening, I'm
24 asking - to take seriously the interpretation of the political will of
25 Serbian people, which is represented here by the Serbian Democratic Party
1 and Serbian Movement of Renewal, and several Serbs from some other
2 parties. Please do take it seriously. This is not good, what you are
3 doing. This is the road that you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take,
4 the same highway of hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia
5 through. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and
6 Muslim people in possible extinction, because Muslim people will not be
7 able to defend itself if it comes to war here."
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
9 Q. Dr. Donia, you mentioned earlier that you had an opportunity to
10 review the videotape of the telecast; and towards the end of this topic
11 in your testimony, you recalled Dr. Karadzic's statement about the
12 possibility of the extinguishing of the Bosnian Muslims.
13 Is this the statement you recall having reviewed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours ...
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
18 MS. EDGERTON: I have an administrative question which I would
19 ask Your Honours' guidance on. I'd like to ask this be marked as an
20 exhibit, but I think it would make sense, subject to Your Honours, of
21 course, that this be marked somehow as part of P329 so that they are, for
22 everybody's sake, cross-referenced and can easily be associated, if
23 that's at all possible.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, it's been suggested by
1 Madam Registrar that she could either make it P329.1 or just
2 cross-reference it, whatever you prefer. Make your pick.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I think, given the way we all have to search
4 through the systems, it would probably be more convenient down the road
5 for it to be called 329.1.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: So be it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit P329.1,
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what's the 65 ter number of that clip?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Of the clip, it's 65 ter number 9009.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Then it's given the number P329.1.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, to move on, and this is noted in your report on the making
15 of the Sarajevo
16 translation, to move on to what you've noted as the SDS Party Council
17 meeting which took place after this speech.
18 Could I ask you, who was present at this meeting?
19 A. The key elected leaders of the SDS, Radovan Karadzic, Biljana
20 Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, and a number of members of the body that was
21 designated the Party Council, I sometimes see it as the Political
22 Council, who were not involved in the daily SDS affairs but viewed as
23 intellectuals with particular insight and contributions to make to the
24 overall direction that the party should take.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Before you go further, could I ask for 65 ter
1 number 2223, please.
2 Q. Perhaps, before the document finally comes up, I could ask you
3 this: Are you in a position to give further detail to the Trial Chamber
4 about what the SDS
5 A. Well, I think I've just given about what I can. It is, in some
6 sense, an advisory body that was listened to very closely because of its
7 composition, prominent intellectuals and political activists in the
8 party. Its chairman Slavko Lejovac was a member of the Academy of
9 Sciences in Bosnia-Herzegovina and a professor. So that's the
10 intellectual component of it. Milorad Ekmecic who, of course, was my
11 former mentor in the 1970s, was also one of those prominent intellectuals
12 who was on the body.
13 Q. Now, do you see the documents on the screen in front of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise them?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us what they are?
18 A. These are the English translation and B/C/S original of notes or
19 minutes taken at the meeting of 15th October 1991, that is, the evening
20 after the morning -- the evening of the same day in which the actions
21 were approved in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina at 2.30 in the
23 Q. Now, to your mind, did this meeting have any significance?
24 A. It's very significant in that it effectively launched the party
25 on a course toward a separate Bosnian Serb national polity and outlined
1 the steps to be taken in that direction. The suggestions come from
2 individual participants. The notes do not show any conclusions reached,
3 nor was there, to my knowledge, any public announcement of conclusions,
4 but the individual actions proposed were, in many cases, implemented
5 within a matter of days or weeks after this meeting.
6 Q. Individual actions such as?
7 A. Well, if I could look at Professor Ekmecic's contribution, for
8 example, he proposes that the regions that have already been created, by
9 which he refers to the SAOs, the Serbian autonomous areas, should not be
10 allowed to form their own separate governments, but should be linked into
11 a single state headquartered in Sarajevo
12 There --
13 MS. EDGERTON: If we could scroll down the page first, and then
14 over to the next page until we see the name of Dr. Koljevic at the very
16 THE WITNESS: Dr. Koljevic advocates a plebiscite and taking a
17 plebiscite immediately.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. And what does Mr. Ostojic advocate?
20 A. He suggests that SDS
21 should be permitted to withdraw if they wish, and that the party go into
22 a formal opposition position. He also wants to ask the two parties that
23 passed the resolution to suspend their decision.
24 Q. Who was Velibor Ostojic?
25 A. Velibor Ostojic was -- became the Minister of Information in the
1 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and was a specialist for media
2 working in the party.
3 Q. Now, were these recommendations that you've listed among the
4 actions that took place?
5 A. Yes. Somewhere in here also is a recommendation for the
6 establishment of an assembly, a separate body. Well, at point 2 here,
7 just before Dr. Karadzic speaks, "create a parallel body of authority
8 which would primarily be reflected in the creation of a Serbian
9 parliament." That step was taken on October 24th, 1991. A referendum
10 was -- the Serb leaders organised a referendum for the 9th and 10th of
11 November, 1991; and in December, took steps towards formation of a
12 separate Serb polity within Bosnia-Herzegovina, a step which they
13 formalised on the 9th of January, 1992.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, then, before moving on, could I ask
15 that this document be marked as an exhibit, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P330, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. Now, you've noted the founding of -- you've noted the creation of
22 a Serb parliament on 24 October 1991
23 that what you called as a parliament actually called a Serb parliament?
24 A. It was first known as the Assembly of the Serbian People of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It subsequently was renamed in -- sometime in late
1 summer of 1992 as the Assembly of Republika Srpska.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask that 65 ter number 2071 be produced,
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is not an objection. This is a request that
5 when Ms. Edgerton is asking questions concerning the Bosnian Serb
6 parliament or the founding of such an institution, that she identifies it
7 as being a Bosnian Serb parliament, because the word "Serb" and the
8 potential connotation of such a word has far-reaching consequences; and
9 since we're trying to identify a specific group, I'd appreciate that.
10 The answer, obviously, discusses a Bosnian Serb parliament, but
11 the term "Serb" has a great deal of meaning and can go far, and I'm just
12 asking that that be done in the future.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any response, madam?
14 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, I'll take it on, Your Honour. I was
15 only using the words of the witness, which is why I referred to the page
16 and line numbers; but, of course, I'll take it on.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON: 2071, I believe was the 65 ter number I asked for.
19 Thank you.
20 Q. Do you recognise the documents that appear on your screen,
21 Dr. Donia?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What are they?
24 A. These are excerpts from the --
25 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment.
1 MS. EDGERTON: I ask for your indulgence, Your Honour. I think
2 we have a document displayed that I didn't intend to be displayed. Your
4 I should note this is because, Your Honour, we've got a number of
5 translations and revised translations and excerpts, and I'll be more
6 specific in identifying the one I want displayed.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one you now want is not 2071?
8 MS. EDGERTON: No. The one I want, Your Honour, is actually
9 2071.02, in English, and the original is also 2071.02. My apologies,
10 Your Honour. No.
11 Your Honour, we'll move on because I don't wish to take the
12 Court's time while we work through this; and if it's a point that needs
13 to be come back to, with everyone's permission, I'll come back to it
15 Q. Dr. Donia, now that we've come to the founding of the Assembly of
16 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I'd like to revert back to the
17 theme we were discussing earlier in your testimony, which was the SDS
18 notion of the nature of the relation that the Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina would have with Yugoslavia, and ask you whether you
20 found in your continued research, in connection with these reports and
21 otherwise, evidence of continued SDS support for this notion?
22 That's because I'm dating it in time now. Now the Assembly of
23 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been established. So within the
24 Assembly, have you found evidence of continued SDS support for this
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask, then, 65 ter number 2079 be called
3 up, and just your indulgence again for a moment, Your Honour.
4 Once it's called up, I'll be able to direct us to the appropriate
5 page. 2079. If you go to page 62, please, in the English, and pages 78
6 and 79 of the Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian is correct, and I'm
7 just going to get you the exact page.
8 Just to put it in context, Your Honour, the difficulty I might
9 run into, and I hope it doesn't come up frequently at all, is because
10 we've obtained CLSS translations of the display paragraphs, in the event
11 there was need to refer to those. So sometimes I need to distinguish
12 between one translation and the other one.
13 Your indulgence for a moment, please, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've got it.
15 MS. EDGERTON: I see everything is displayed appropriately here
16 now. Thank you.
17 Q. Could I direct you to the part on page 78 of the B/C/S and the
18 bottom of page 62, where you see -- where you see Momcilo Krajisnik
20 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go over to the next paragraph on
21 both of those pages -- sorry, if we could continue on to the next pages.
22 Now, on page 62, which is now displayed in English, please go down to the
23 paragraph on the bottom which begins: "Gentlemen, if we succeed in
24 completing a federal BiH ..." Keep going. Thank you.
25 The same paragraph is now displayed on the screen, and it is the
1 last paragraph on page 79.
2 Q. Dr. Donia, I apologise for the preamble, but if you could look at
3 this quotation of Mr. Krajisnik's, which begins with, "... if we succeed
4 in creating a federal BiH ..." and ends with "... the Serbian people
5 should be united more than now than ever before ..."
6 Perhaps I could ask you this: Is this some evidence of continued
7 support for the notion we've been discussing?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, he can -- the witness can tell us what it
10 is. The notion that -- the question, as framed, is leading.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith--
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: "Some evidence," I mean, he can explain what it
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, you know, we're having here an
15 expert witness who is being called upon to give his opinion. He is here
16 to give opinion evidence. I'm not quite sure what you mean by she's
17 leading. He's following --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I can explain to you precisely what I mean, if
19 you want, which is --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like me to finish what I was saying?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please let me. The witness has been explaining a
23 particular theme that he says he's identified in the speeches of various
24 speakers in the SDS
25 the same theme here. This answer is going to be, Yes, it's there, or No,
1 it's not there. Now, what can be leading in that with dealing with an
2 expert witness?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: The manner in which you've framed the issue and
4 framed the question is distinct from that which is being said by
5 Ms. Edgerton. As you just said, he's being asked whether he can pick up
6 the same here -- same theme here. Now, as a thematic approach, it's
7 distinct from the question of "some evidence." It is that language that
8 I am objecting to.
9 If the question was framed as you had framed it, whether you pick
10 up the same theme here, then I would have no objection.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's check out what Madam Edgerton had asked.
12 Now, the question was: "Dr. Donia, I apologise for all the
13 preamble, but if you could look at this quotation of Mr. Krajisnik which
14 begins with '... if we succeed with creating a federal BiH ...' and ends
15 with '... the Serbian people should be united more than now than ever
16 before ...'
17 "Perhaps I should ask you this: Is this some evidence of
18 continued support for the notion we have been discussing?"
19 The answer to that would be yes or no.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand your position, and I stand by what I
21 said. If she had asked the question with regard to a thematic response
22 and do we have the same thematic issue, then I would not have stood on my
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: The issue is whether or not this statement is
1 consistent with the notion we've been discussing previously, Your
2 Honours, and I think the issue comes across in the initial question.
3 Either way, it's a yes or no answer, isn't it?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Q. Dr. Donia, do you recall the question?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Are you in a position to answer the question?
9 A. Yes, I am, and the answer is yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could I then ask, Your Honour, that this 65 ter
11 number - and, again, administratively, I'm going into -- I feel I'm going
12 into murky waters, Your Honour - but 65 ter number 02079, pages 61 and 62
13 of the English and 78 and 79, be marked as exhibits.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Including the page 1s?
15 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 They are so admitted. May they please be given an exhibit
21 THE REGISTRAR: They are exhibited as Exhibit P331, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. Now, Dr. Donia, perhaps I could ask you: Did this notion evolve
25 in any way at all after the outbreak of war in 1992?
1 A. Yes. This notion of -- you're referring, I take it, to the
2 notion of a preference for Yugoslavia
3 state as the backup or secondary option?
4 Q. Quite so.
5 A. Yes, it did, because after -- or after the war began, the
6 principal goal and activities of the Bosnian Serb leaders were directed
7 at achieving international recognition for the Bosnian Serb polity.
8 Therefore, the Yugoslav option was effectively dead, and the alternative
9 became, then, the primary goal in the context of international
11 So the precise form that this took now was to seek recognition
12 for the Bosnian Serb polity, recognising in the practical sense that the
13 road toward a unified state, unified Serb state, would become -- would be
14 something down the road, sought to do nothing that would compromise the
15 ultimate reaching that goal, but at the same time wanted to secure
16 recognition as an important interim step on the way to it.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps, at this juncture, I could ask for 65 ter
19 number 2150.01 to be displayed, please.
20 It's previously been marked - again, administrative murky waters,
21 Your Honour - but it's been previously marked as Exhibit 218, but I'm not
22 clear whether the whole document has been marked as Exhibit 218 or
23 certain excerpted pages of the document. But I could certainly indicate
24 which pages I would, in due course, be interested in displaying.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit 218 is page 41.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Then could I ask for 02150.01, page 16 of the
2 English transcript and, I think, page 16 of the Serbo-Croatian to be
3 displayed, please.
4 I see page 16, and there I note -- that's e-court page 16 of the
5 English transcript. There I note Aleksa Buha is the speaker, and if we
6 could just go slowly through his speech until we get to page 19.
7 And, for the record and everyone's information, these are minutes
8 of the 40th Assembly session, 40th session of the Republika Srpska
9 Assembly, held in Brcko on 11 May 1994
10 And in the English now, can we keep going slowly through until we
11 come to e-court page 19, and then I'll deal with the location of
12 the B/C/S.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, just before we go ahead, can we
14 just sort out how we name our exhibits. Exhibit 218 --
15 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- is 65 ter 02150.01.
17 Now, you're using exactly the same 65 ter number here, and we are
18 going to get a different exhibit number for this, but the 65 ter number
19 is exactly the same. I think you've got to sort that one out first.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am, you'll have to sort out the 65 ter
22 numbering here now.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I do. If I may, Your Honour, just for clarity,
24 and it will help certainly all of us in the future. Should the pages I'm
25 refer to be accepted as exhibits, I would assume they would be marked as
1 part of 02150.01. Am I correct in that assumption?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, accepting that 0215.01 is already
3 Exhibit 218.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Okay.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And now this one is going to get a new exhibit
7 MS. EDGERTON: Could we -- do we need to give it a different
8 exhibit number if it's different pages of the same large document, Your
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You will tell us what you want to do. If you want
11 us to be part of that previous exhibit, then that's no problem.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that's what we had discussed.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I was talking across the aisle. I believe that's
16 what we discussed. We actually had a meeting in which we were trying to
17 figure out a way of coordinating this particular issue, when we're
18 dealing with one exhibit and there are a number of different pages
19 because it's a voluminous exhibit that are picked out.
20 I believe that the solution suggested by Ms. Edgerton was what we
21 discussed. We were going to try, as an experimental phase, to see
22 whether or not it was going to work or not. But I believe what she's
23 suggested is what had been discussed by all parties, including the
24 register, and we also received the assistance of the Chamber. We were
25 trying to figure out a way to make it work.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what I understood Madam Edgerton to be
2 suggesting was that it be given a different exhibit number. Now, that
3 won't work. If it comes under exactly the same 65 ter number, the only
4 way is to then -- if this page 16 that she is now going to refer to is
5 admitted into evidence, the only way, if it comes under that 65 ter
6 number, is to make it part of Exhibit 218.
7 That's the only way you can do it.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you agreed to that?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's what we thought about doing, because that
13 way you'd have -- you would have all in one --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- package for that particular exhibit. That was
16 the whole. There were some technical issues that we thought might be a
17 problem, but we were getting research on those to see if they're going to
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Registrar, could you go to page 19 of the
23 English transcript.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not 16 -- oh, you start at 16.
25 MS. EDGERTON: To identify who the speaker was, Your Honour,
1 Mr. Aleksa Buha, and I'll ask a question about that in a few minutes.
2 Your indulgence for a moment.
3 Q. Dr. Donia --
4 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, let me get the B/C/S on the screen and
5 sorted first, please. Page 16 of the B/C/S transcript, second paragraph,
6 starting at line 8 from the top of the paragraph, I hope.
7 Q. Dr. Donia, if I could direct you to Mr. Buha's comments about
8 two-thirds of the way down the paragraph on the right-hand side,
9 beginning with the sentence, "As for ..." which appears on the far
10 right-hand side of this paragraph, seven lines up from the bottom: "As
11 for the political organisation ..."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like to ask you two questions. First of all, do you know who
14 Aleksa Buha was at the time?
15 A. Yes. Aleksa Buha was -- he became the foreign minister of the
16 Bosnian Serb polity -- of the Serbian -- of the Bosnian Serb polity.
17 Q. Now, these articulations by Mr. Buha of the options available to
18 the Bosnian Serb polity, do you view them as being consistent with your
19 analysis of the evolution?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. This -- we see here this kind of new wrinkle in the post-war that
23 began -- that was articulated after the war began already entering. That
24 is, on the one hand, is the recognition of the Bosnian Serb polity
25 internationally, and the other is ultimate unification with Serbia
1 he says, "... our primary option is still uniting with Serbia; and if
2 not, then the alternative would be independence."
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honours, could I ask that page 19 of the
5 English translation of this 65 ter number 2150.01, and page 16 of the
6 B/C/S be added to Prosecution Exhibit P218, please, as part of the
7 exhibit, given that they're extracts from the same umbrella document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those pages are admitted, and they will become
9 part of Exhibit P218.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Could we now move to 65 ter number 2226, please, a
13 transcript of the 7th session of the Bosnian -- of the Assembly of
14 Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 15 February 1992.
15 And on the B/C/S original, I'd like page 43, please, second
16 paragraph from the bottom; on the English translation, I'd like, please,
17 page 26, fourth paragraph. I hope that's correct, yes. Fourth
18 paragraph, starting with "Let Serbia and Montenegro ..." Thank you.
19 I see, perhaps for the sake of the record, we should go back to
20 the previous page to identify the speaker --
21 Oh, no. Your indulgence, please. I apologise. Thank you.
22 The speaker here is Mr. Vojo Kupresanin. That's on page 25, and
23 if we could go over to page 26 again.
24 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, Dr. Donia, to the paragraph
25 that begins, "As for the JNA ..." and the paragraph following that which
1 begins, "Let Serbia and Montenegro
2 Can you see those paragraphs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. First of all, do you know who Mr. Kupresanin was?
5 A. Mr. Kupresanin was -- Kupresanin was at that time the President
6 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
8 Q. Could you just explain in a nutshell, succinctly, what the
9 Autonomous Region of the Krajina was for the benefit of the Trial
11 A. The Autonomous Region of Krajina was the renamed Community of
12 Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina, the organisation that was founded in
13 late April 1991 in the Bosnian Krajina, consisting of Serb-majority
14 municipalities in that area. In September of 1991, at the time that
15 other Serbian autonomous regions were created, the Community of
16 Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina was renamed to be closer in name to
17 these other SAOs and was given the name ARK, or Autonomous Region of
19 Q. Thank you. Now, the articulations of Mr. Kupresanin that we've
20 pointed to in these documents, do you view them as being consistent with
21 your explanation of the evolution of this notion of the options available
22 for the SDS
23 A. Yes. At this time, he is again moving into it this -- towards
24 this phase after the beginning of the war, when the prospect of
1 at, first of all, the Serbian republic, by which he means the Bosnian
2 Serb polity, joining Serbia
3 the future Yugoslavia
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could these pages of 65 ter
6 number 0226, and I would ask for the B/C/S pages 43 and 44, because I
7 think the highlight quotations go over two pages, and page 26 of the
8 English, be marked as exhibits, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And, of course, page 1 also, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course.
12 Madam Registrar, every time we admit an exhibit, we start with
13 page 1 just to be able to see what the topics are about, and then the
14 pages that are being admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. I will make a note in
16 e-court. The document will become Exhibit P332.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Now, moving on to another 65 ter number, 2160.01,
19 pages of which have previously been marked as P231, but not these pages,
20 being transcripts of the 53rd session of the Assembly of Republika
21 Srpska, held in Jahorina on 28 August 1995
22 In the B/C/S, I'd like to take us to page 84, first paragraph.
23 Tell me if I'm going too fast, please, Mr. Registrar. Page 84 -- no, I'm
24 sorry, 84, not 48.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: On my notes, Exhibit P231, I have it as 65 ter
1 01260, not 2160.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence, please, Your Honour, to let me
3 check with my case manager.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Sometimes I transpose numbers, so I may be
6 apologising to you very soon. We'll see.
7 I'm informed by Ms. Javier that in e-court, 2160.01 is, indeed,
8 P231. We should perhaps see if our records all correspond.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe it's me who transposed numbers. Thank you.
10 I'm sorry. I'll make the correction.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Page 84, please, of the B/C/S, Mr. Registrar, first paragraph,
13 ninth to the seventeenth line, to the best of what I'm informed; and the
14 English translation, page 66.
15 Your indulgence for a moment.
16 I'm sorry, Your Honour. I always feel more comfortable if I can
17 identify the sentence on the page with my own eyes before we proceed
18 further, rather than just rattling out some instructions.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like more time to do that, like a break?
20 MS. EDGERTON: That might be convenient, Your Honour. Thank you
21 for the suggestion.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. Then we'll take a break and come back
23 at half past 12.00. Court adjourned.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Edgerton, you have now found your
3 MS. EDGERTON: I have, Your Honour.
4 If it please Your Honour, I'd just like to note for the record
5 that the appearances have changed. Mr. Harmon has been called away, and
6 I'm assisted now for the rest of today's session by my colleague
7 Mr. Evangelos Thomas.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Welcome, Mr. Thomas.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Now, my bearings have taken me to --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: To page 66 of 65 ter 02160.01.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, Your Honour, beginning with the sentence
12 approximately halfway down the page: "We have no desire to become a
13 separate state," a statement by Radovan Karadzic.
14 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see the remarks by Dr. Karadzic that I've just
15 indicated for the record?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And could you please review that quotation right down to where we
18 see, if I have it correctly, "... it's an attempt to secure both."
19 Karadzic reads: "We have no desire to become a separate state," and
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you view this statement as being consistent with your
23 hypothesis, if I can call it that, about the evolving or the evolution of
24 the options for the Bosnian Serb polity?
25 A. Yes. This being in wartime, late in the war, we see that
1 expression of a desire for ultimate unity with other Serb polities in the
2 context of Yugoslavia
3 be recognition.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may, could this page 66 of the
6 English language version and B/C/S page 84 be marked as additions to
7 Exhibit P231.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, Mr. Donia, recognition by?
9 THE WITNESS: The international community.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 This page is admitted into evidence and its corresponding B/C/S
12 page, and they will form part of Exhibit P231. Thank you very much.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, Dr. Donia, we've been dealing up until this point
15 exclusively with expressions or articulations by the political leadership
16 in the Republika Srpska and Serbia
17 I'd like to know, have you seen in the course of your research
18 evidence of RS military leaders expressing themselves on this same
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. Could you tell us where?
22 A. There are some expressions of this notion expressed within the
23 Bosnian Serb Assembly, which was periodically addressed by senior
24 generals of the Army of Republika Srpska, and also in interviews
25 published in principally the Belgrade
1 Q. What type of a newspaper was NIN? Are you aware?
2 A. Yes. NIN stands for Nedeljne Informativne Novine, which is a
3 Weekly Informative Newspaper. It, as a weekly, did a lot of conventional
4 stories, but also engaged in a lot of interviews with key players in the
5 Yugoslav crisis throughout the 1990s. Some of those were quite extensive
6 interviews. One case even went to devoting an entire issue to a series
7 of interviews. So it was a remarkably independent newspaper operating in
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask 65 ter number 1268 be displayed,
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say 1268?
13 MS. EDGERTON: 1268.
14 If we could go to e-court page 17, bottom right-hand corner on
15 the B/C/S copy, thank you, and on the English version, pages 36 and 37,
17 Q. Now, just with respect to the first pages of these images,
18 Dr. Donia, that you saw on the screen in front of you, did you recognise
19 what they were?
20 A. Well, there was a picture of General Ratko Mladic on the cover
21 of NIN.
22 Q. Thank you. If I could direct you to the second full paragraph on
23 English page 36, it appears at the bottom of your screen so far: "That
24 was the Operation Lukavac 93. What was the area it encompassed?" This
25 is an interview with General Ratko Mladic.
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could you scroll further down, please,
3 Mr. Registrar, on the English page. Thank you.
4 Q. Could you have a look at the answer to that question that General
5 Mladic gives, please.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Registrar has just given you the last line of the
8 answer to that question. Now, if we go back to the previous page in
9 English, General Mladic refers to three names, Kupa, Korana, and Timok.
10 Are you familiar with those names at all?
11 A. All three are rivers. The Kupa is a small river that runs, in
12 part, along the border between Croatia
13 Korana river at Karlovac in Croatia
14 short period or short length defines the border between Serbia and
16 Q. So, broadly speaking, then, when General Mladic refers to the aim
17 of Operation Lukavac, Lukavac 93, as he does in this answer, as being,
18 among other things, "the territorial unification of the Serbian people
19 from Kupa and Korana to Timok" - and I'm quoting the article here - what
20 geographic area does this encompass?
21 A. It would be a wide swathe of territory, including all of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a good portion of Croatia, and all or most -- or at
23 the very least, most of Serbia
24 Q. Do you view this statement of General Mladic as consistent with
25 the articulations we've been looking at so far of the notions of Serbian
1 unity that we've been discussing?
2 A. Yes. He suggests here that -- the "and" in that sentence
3 suggests or states that the aim of the operation was joining parts of the
4 Bosnian Serb polity, and, at the same, time contributing to the
5 territorial unification of the Serb people over this much broader swathe
6 of territory. Effectively, he is stating that the Bosnian Serb portion
7 of this is a subset of the broader goal of Serb unification.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder, Your Honours, if I could ask, then, that
10 these pages of 65 ter 1268 - it's a 20-page article, Your Honour, in
11 B/C/S; in English, substantially more - this B/C/S page 17 and English
12 pages 36 and 37, plus page 1, be tendered as exhibits.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Edgerton. We'll do that in a
15 But, Mr. Donia, just so that you take me along - I may be slow on
16 the uptake - this geographical area, he is describing an area where
17 Operation Lukavac took place. Are you able to say whether this, in his
18 mind, was what he would like or would have loved to see constituting an
19 independent Serbian area, as he perceived it at the time; or did they
20 just happen to be in those areas at that point?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was. It was part of what he would have
22 loved to see and that part which was specifically the objective of
23 Operation Lukavac 93.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And trying to follow you while you are
25 talking and look at the map, I've been able to identify or to find on the
1 map the rivers of Kupa and Korana. Where would Timok be?
2 THE WITNESS: Timok is on the border with Bulgaria, far to the
3 east, the border between Serbia
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.
5 Those pages are then admitted into evidence. May they please be
6 given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P333, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Now, in regard to Serbian goals, Dr. Donia, I take from your two
11 reports, you're familiar with the strategic objectives of 12 May 1992
12 A. Yes, I am.
13 Q. -- is that correct?
14 A. Yes, I am.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kindly not overlap for the
16 interpreters. Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies, Madam Interpreter.
18 Could I have 65 ter number 02547 displayed, please.
19 Q. Dr. Donia, do you recognise the documents on the screen in front
20 of you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what are they?
23 A. This is the excerpt from the Official Gazette of the Republika
24 Srpska from November of 1993, in which the six strategic goals that were
25 adopted on 12 May 1992
1 and most authoritative form over the signature of -- or the printed
2 signature of Momcilo Krajisnik.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, may this be marked as an exhibit,
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's so marked. May it please be given an exhibit
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P334, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Dr. Donia, are you aware of who announced these strategic
11 objectives on 12 May 1992
12 A. Yes. They were introduced and outlined to the Bosnian Serb
13 Assembly by Dr. Karadzic.
14 Q. To your knowledge, did these goals persist for the Bosnian Serb
15 political and military leaders for the duration of the war?
16 A. Yes, they did. I've been able to identify many tens of
17 references to these strategic objectives in the course of deliberations
18 in the Bosnian Serb Assembly, always with the notion that they constitute
19 the authoritative guidelines for action of the Bosnian Serbs.
20 Q. These strategic objectives, do you view them as being consistent
21 with the political and military leaders' articulated notions of Serbian
22 unity that we've been discussing here so far today?
23 A. Yes, they are consistent. They are a somewhat more specific
24 iteration of those goals pertaining to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Dr. Donia referred a little earlier to the fact
1 that Serbian military leaders in Bosnia also did articulate this. He
2 didn't mention the names of those leaders. I see you're still repeating
3 the question and referring to political and military leaders articulating
5 Specifically which military leaders are these that you are
6 referring to, Dr. Donia?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I've mentioned General Mladic already.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must have been asleep.
9 THE WITNESS: And I would also say General Gvero articulated
10 those ideals in the course of his several addresses to the Bosnian Serb
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm awfully sorry. I probably didn't hear those
14 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, can I ask Dr. Donia to
15 explain who General Gvero is.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, you're the dominus litus.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 Q. Dr. Donia, who was -- when you speak of military leaders, you
19 mentioned the name of General Gvero. Do you know who he was?
20 A. Yes. General Gvero was the deputy commander for morale, legal,
21 and religious affairs of the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army, the
22 Army of Republika Srpska. He also served as the principal representative
23 of the Main Staff to the Bosnian Serb Assembly, once General Mladic had
24 withdrawn from attending the sessions in 1993.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just for completeness, who was General Mladic?
1 THE WITNESS: General Mladic was the Commander of the Main Staff
2 of the VRS.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Now, Dr. Donia, at page 68, line 1, you noted that these
5 objectives were consistent. You said "... a more specific iteration of
6 those goals pertaining to Bosnia-Herzegovina," referring to the Bosnian
7 Serb goals. I'd like to take you back to a couple of those goals by way
8 of example.
9 The second strategic objective refers to a corridor between
10 Semberija and Krajina. To your mind, Dr. Donia, how is -- I'll ask you
11 two questions. First of all, could you -- and I'll take you to a map in
12 this regard. I'm going to ask you first, for the benefit of the Trial
13 Chamber, to identify the area covered by this corridor; and then, second,
14 how it -- in what way that goal is consistent with the positions
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
17 Because it takes some time to upload these images in e-court,
18 Your Honour, I'd prefer to refer Dr. Donia to one of the maps in the map
19 book, and put it on the ELMO so he can better illustrate his propositions
20 to the Trial Chamber, with your leave.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
22 MS. EDGERTON: By his last answer, I think it might be more
23 useful for him to refer to map 6 in the map book, and that's already been
24 exhibited as P187.
25 Q. Dr. Donia, could I now, looking at this map, just ask you to
1 explain how the second strategic objective is consistent with the
2 articulated goals.
3 A. Yes. Thank you for bringing me back to the world of paper
4 and ELMO.
5 The corridor in question runs between the large swathe of
6 territory, many municipalities of which have a Bosnian Serb majority, to
7 the west of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the area of Semberija, which is in the
8 north-east corner of Semberija.
9 The corridor as it existed through much of the conflict widened
10 on both ends, but had a very limited width hugging the Sava River
11 area from approximately Brcko to Bosanski Samac. Thus, the corridor
12 really refers to this, let's say, area right here very close to the
13 river, which was at times cut off by the forces of the Army of the
14 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian forces of the Croatian
15 Defence Community. It was vital to the Serbs to have that open in order
16 to keep the two large wings here of Bosnian-controlled -- Bosnian
17 Serb-controlled territory contiguous with one another.
18 Q. And --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, I'm not sure whether you intend
20 tendering the marked map, according to the witness's markings, at some
21 stage; and if that's your intention, rather than use the pointer that
22 he's using, maybe you would like him to use something that writes and he
23 can mark it. That's, of course, if you want to tender it.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, looking at his explanation on the
25 record, I think his explanation serves as a very good illustration of his
1 proposition without tendering the map.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're the dominus litus.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Dr. Donia, if we could move to the third objective, the
5 establishment of the corridor in the Drina River Valley
6 eradication of the Drina River
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you explain how, in your view, the achievement of this
9 objective was consistent with this articulated notion of Serbian unity.
10 You may be able to do this without the map. It's just by way of an
11 illustrative tool.
12 A. Well, just for illustration, the Drina River
13 flows north, and then comes to define the boundary between
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia
16 century, early nineteenth century, been -- frequently functioned as a
17 border between Serbia
18 objectives wanted to eliminate that border so that it could be traversed
19 more easily and enhance the unity between Serbia and the Serb-controlled
20 areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. EDGERTON: You can remove that map from the ELMO now, and
23 we'll revert back to e-court.
24 I'd like to take us back, please, to the article from NIN, which
25 has been marked as P133, the interview of Ratko Mladic, to page 37 of the
1 e-court. The 65 ter was 1268.
2 Oh, my apologies, 333. I'm grateful to all my colleagues for
3 guiding me on this. Prosecution Exhibit 333. Now, page 37 of the
4 English, thank you, and the B/C/S, page 17 again.
5 Q. Now, Dr. Donia, we earlier --
6 MS. EDGERTON: I see the printing is a little bit difficult to
7 read on the English version.
8 THE WITNESS: It's legible to me.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Well, not to me, with respect.
11 Page 37 of the English version, I'd like to direct you to General
12 Mladic's response in the way of the first two sentences to the very next
13 question after the one we dealt with earlier.
14 The question is: "The aim of the Operation Lukavac 93 was
15 certainly to prevent the Drina
16 the same time Muslims had tried in every way to get to this river."
17 Can you look at the first two sentences of General Mladic's
18 response to this question?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we enlarge it a little bit. I know Madam
20 Edgerton can now read it. I can't. It doesn't seem to work.
21 Carry on.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe if it assists, I can, with Your Honours'
23 leave, I can read this out. It is a bit blurry still.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
1 Q. Dr. Donia, here General Mladic says: "For us Serbs west of the
4 Is this consistent -- is this articulation by General Mladic
5 consistent with the strategic objective number 3 -- the realisation of
6 strategic objective number 3?
7 A. Yes, it is. It could almost -- it is very nearly a simple
8 restatement of it in language that was probably more commonly used at the
9 time among Bosnian Serb leaders, that "the Drina is our backbone."
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. EDGERTON: If we can move on please to 65 ter 06690, a
12 transcript of the 20th RS Assembly session held on 14 and 15 September
14 I'd like to direct us to the English, page 14, seventh line from
15 the bottom of the page, a statement by Radovan Karadzic; and B/C/S
16 page 16, fifteenth line from the bottom of the page.
17 Mr. Registrar, is there any way you can enlarge the English a
18 little bit further? That's not bad.
19 Q. On the fifteenth line up from the bottom of the page, Karadzic
20 says - if I could have your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour - at the
21 sentence beginning "The Drina is of great strategic importance ..."
22 MS. EDGERTON: There we go. I see it halfway across. It's not
23 the fifteenth line. It's the seventh line up from the bottom of the
24 page, Mr. Registrar.
25 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see the passage from Dr. Karadzic that I'm
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is -- to your mind, is this statement by Karadzic an articulation
4 of the importance of achieving strategic objective number 3 to the
5 Bosnian Serbs?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I could please have your
9 indulgence for a moment, Your Honour. I'm advised certain pages of this
10 have already been entered as an objective.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. My apologies, Your Honour. This is
13 Exhibit P203, and Ms. Javier's records indicate that the entire session
14 has been exhibited. My apologies.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could go further to 65 ter 02305.01,
17 which is a session of the Bosnian Serb -- sorry, the RS Assembly held in
18 Bjelaca on the 3rd of April, 1993.
19 If we could go in English, please, to page 38, the last paragraph
20 on the page; and B/C/S page 23.
21 Q. I'd like to direct you, Dr. Donia, to a comment by an individual
22 named Dusko Pejovic.
23 MS. EDGERTON: And we'll try and get a legible version of the
24 page up. That's not bad.
25 Q. I'd like to direct you to Mr. Pejovic where he refers to Gorazde
1 as an oasis. I think it's about the ninth line from the top of the
3 A. Let's see. Can you give me a sentence beginning?
4 Q. Your indulgence, please.
5 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies, Your Honour.
6 Q. It's the sixth line up from the bottom: "It is an oasis that we
7 have to clear up as soon as possible ..."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. First of all, Dr. Donia, are you familiar with who
10 Dusko Pejovic is?
11 A. I'm afraid not, other than he was a member of the -- a delegate
12 to the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
13 Q. As a historian, Dr. Donia, are you familiar with events in the
14 area under discussion in this passage, the area of Gorazde, in
15 April 1993?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was the situation there at that time?
18 A. Gorazde, Srebrenica, and Zepa were three enclaves in Eastern
20 the subject of humanitarian aid being delivered, when possible, by --
21 under UNPROFOR escort. Gorazde, like the other two towns, were swelled
22 with Bosnian Muslims who -- from other parts of Eastern
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina who'd been driven out or gathered in those towns for
25 Q. Do you, then, see Mr. Pejovic's statement as having any relation
1 to the importance of strategic objective number 3 to the Bosnian Serb
3 A. Yes. In this statement, he adds the demographic dimension to the
4 notion of establishing the Drina
5 border. He's stating here that the liberation of these territories must
6 necessarily be a part of securing the region as they envision it.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, could this 02305.01, B/C/S page 23,
9 English page 38, be marked as an exhibit, please -- sorry, Your Honour.
10 Sorry, Your Honour. I'm ahead of myself. My apologies. We're
11 on 65 ter 6690. I misquoted.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are on 65 ter?
13 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were right. Now you are wrong. We are on
15 65 ter 03205.01, page 38 in the English.
16 It is admitted as an exhibit. May it please be given an exhibit
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P335, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you for your patience, Your Honour,
21 and everyone else in the courtroom.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: We shall stay patient, ma'am.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, sir.
24 65 ter 2143.01 is the next document, I'd like to direct us to;
25 and that should be the transcript of the 33rd session of the Republika
1 Srpska Assembly held in Mrkonjic Grad on 21 July 1993.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please just repeat the 65 ter number.
3 It's not appearing on the screen.
4 MS. EDGERTON: 2143.01.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Again, an administrative note, for some reason,
7 since we resumed, these documents, the definition on them electronically,
8 all seems to be rather fuzzy, and it's not making things easy for any of
9 us, I suspect. I thought it might have been the scanning of the first
10 document, but we seem to be seeing this phenomenon as we go through the
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, ma'am.
13 Is the origin of this phenomenon in the OTP? Quiet. Quiet.
14 MS. EDGERTON: It may be my eyes, Your Honour. My colleague is
15 informing me that I'm the only one this time that has a blurry
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not the only one.
18 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Since we're taking a moment and dealing with
20 administrative matters, I have been informed that with regard to P203,
21 the entire document was not admitted; rather, pages 1 and, I believe, 55
22 were admitted.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Pages 1 and 55?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that's what I understood. I think, at some
25 point, we better double-check it to make sure, because I think that may
1 be a document in its entirety which has not been admitted.
2 I don't know if you want to take the time to deal with that right
3 now or at the conclusion of the session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's deal with it right now, if we can
5 double-check it.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me say, my notes don't indicate that any
8 specific pages were admitted, but they also indicate that this was marked
9 for identification, this exhibit.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. My notes indicate that pages 1 and 55
11 were the pages that were in discussion, and, I believe, yes, marked for
12 identification. It's also a document, I believe, that's under seal.
13 Oh, wait a minute. I take that back. I take that back.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Are we able to get guidance either from the
15 Registry or from the case manager?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If this might be of some help - it may be, I
17 don't know, because I don't know if I'm assisting - P217, the entire
18 document was admitted and they both deal with 20th sessions. They're two
19 different 20th sessions, however.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Accepting that, P217 is a different 65 ter
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct. I'm just trying to figure out why we're
23 having the decolage that we're having right now. I can't figure that
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: And according to my notes, Exhibit P217 was not
1 admitted in its entirety. It was pages 6, 12, and 13 that were admitted.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right. Then that became -- I'm sorry. I'm
3 making it more confusing as opposed to less, because that became D8
4 because we admitted the entire document.
5 Never mind, forget about what I just said. I was trying to make
6 it easier. What I think I am doing is making it more difficult.
7 Going back to the original situation that we're in, forgetting
8 about P217, my notes do not reflect the entire document was admitted.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're now talking about P203.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right. I'm just going back to that. I thought I
11 could be of some help, but apparently I was not.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I guess the Registry will take precedence.
14 According to the Registry, the entire document was admitted, so we'll
15 defer to the registrar.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which case, if the entire document was
18 admitted, then where we are today at 65 ter 06690, page 14, will become
19 part of Exhibit P203. Okay.
20 Thank you very much.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask the parties to double-check this.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry for trying to help.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your help is always appreciated, sir. But we can
25 double-check that during the break and see whether everybody's correct.
1 We're now back at 65 ter 02143.01.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, please. If we could go to page 54 on the
3 English, first paragraph, second and third line -- no.
4 I'm sorry, Your Honours. That's not what I have marked here, but
5 I'd like to -- yeah, that's what I have marked here.
6 Q. I'd like to direct you, Dr. Donia, to the first paragraph, second
7 and third lines, where you see Dr. Karadzic's -- an extract from a
8 statement by Dr. Karadzic as to the significance of the Drina --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we have the B/C/S up?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, you can. With respect, I need to get
12 one at a time before I see them.
13 The B/C/S is page 34, second paragraph from the bottom of the
14 page, last three lines.
15 Q. In the meanwhile, Dr. Donia, did you have a chance to look at the
16 excerpt I've highlighted from -- a statement by Dr. Karadzic?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. What have you highlighted, Madam Edgerton?
19 MS. EDGERTON: The sentence that begins "The significance of the
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 MS. EDGERTON: And the passage ends with "... at this Assembly,"
23 the passage of interest.
24 Q. Dr. Donia, do you find this statement also consistent with what
25 we've been discussing as being the importance of achieving the third
1 strategic objective?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if this could be marked as an
5 exhibit, please. 65 ter number, as I've indicated, is 2143.01. We're on
6 page 34, and the corresponding B/C/S is page 54 --
7 Sorry, Your Honours. I think it's probably my fatigue, but
8 again, I've inverted the numbers.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's page 54 in the English, ma'am.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, and thank you to Ms. Javier for guiding
13 me, as she does so ably.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 It is so admitted. May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P336, Your Honours.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Dr. Donia, over the course of your research, have you come to a
19 view as to how you would characterise the strategic objectives?
20 A. Well, as I've said, I think they were carefully considered,
21 adopted unanimously by the Assembly, and were guidelines which were
22 considered firm guidelines for the civilian and military objectives of
23 the Bosnian Serbs in the course of the war and thereafter.
24 Q. So, from what you're saying, are we to understand that you would
25 characterise these strategic objectives of 12 May 1992 as both political
1 and military goals?
2 A. Yes. They were determined by political leaders, passed on to
3 military commanders, who then accepted them as goals for their own
5 Q. In relation to this, I'd like to take you to a document you've
6 referred to in your background report on the Sarajevo siege.
7 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter number 2070.
8 Q. Do you see this document on the screen in front of you,
9 Dr. Donia?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Do you recognise the document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us what it is?
14 A. These are minutes of a meeting held on May 14, 1992, attended by
15 several major military leaders and presidents of a number of Serbian
16 municipalities in the Bosnian Krajina.
17 Q. When you speak of important military leaders, perhaps I could
18 draw your attention to the first name mentioned on the list of attendees
19 at the meeting.
20 MS. EDGERTON: That's on page 1 of the English, note 1; and
21 page 1 of the B/C/S also, note 1.
22 Q. Who's the first name on the list of attendees?
23 A. Colonel Stanislav Galic.
24 Q. Are you familiar with this individual?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who is he?
2 A. He at this time was commander of the 30th Partisan Division,
3 which was operating in or based in Bosnian Krajina. He subsequently went
4 on to become a general and commander of the Romanija units of the VRS,
5 the Army of Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Now, with respect to this document, could you explain to us -- or
7 do you attach any significance to this document in terms of the theme
8 that we've moved on to, the strategic objectives as political and
9 military goals?
10 A. Yes. It is, first of all, an indication of the need that was
11 felt for close coordination between civilian leaders and military
12 commanders in the areas of operation of the military and the individual
13 municipalities. It, furthermore, highlights the strategic goals or
14 objectives that were presented two days before in the Assembly -- Bosnian
15 Serb Assembly session in Banja Luka, and repeated or -- repeated with
16 similar but not quite identical language by participants in the meeting.
17 Q. Can I just ask you, going back to page 83, line 16 to 19, you
18 mentioned that Galic became the commander of the Romanija units of
19 the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska. Are you aware what generally the
20 activities of the Romanija units of the VRS were during the course of the
22 A. Yes. Those were units responsible for the siege of Sarajevo
23 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we can, in this document, go over to
24 page 2 of the English, thank you, just to give Dr. Donia an opportunity
25 to have a view of the document in its entirety, page 3 and page 4.
1 The next page on the English version. Thank you.
2 Q. Now, looking at the points listed at the top of page 4, numbers 2
3 to 6, could I draw your attention to item number 5 which says: "It was
4 stated that Sarajevo
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you attach any significance to this; and if so, what?
7 A. Well, it indicates that not everyone walked away from the session
8 on the 12th of May with the notion that Sarajevo should only be divided,
9 and, as such, represents his belief that the notion advanced was that
11 Q. This being who? Who are you referring to?
12 A. I missed the speaker here.
13 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go back to the earlier page, please,
14 the preceding page.
15 THE WITNESS: This is the president of Mrkonjic Grad municipal
16 assembly, Mr. Malidza, who was speaking.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Your Honours, could this document
18 please be tendered adds an exhibit.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted as an exhibit. May it please be
20 given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P337.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. EDGERTON: I would like to go to a further document which has
24 actually already been admitted as an exhibit, P149; 65 ter number 00379.
25 If we can -- thank you.
1 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see the documents on the screen in front of
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Do you recognise them?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us what they are?
7 A. These are, in English and the original B/C/S, the report prepared
8 in the course of 199 -- early 1993, I believe, on the status and
9 combat-readiness of the VRS in the course of 1992.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could I take all of us to page 159 of the
11 translation and the B/C/S page 43, please.
12 Q. Dr. Donia, could I direct you to, I think, the fourth line in
13 this first full paragraph that begins with the phrase, "The strategic
14 objectives of our war," and ask you to review that passage down to the
15 end of the page, please.
16 MS. EDGERTON: And, Mr. Registrar, if you could scroll down
17 slowly, it may take the rest of us some time to have a look as well.
18 Thank you.
19 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the passage I've identified,
20 Dr. Donia?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, generally speaking, is this passage consistent with your
23 articulated view that the strategic objectives were not only political
24 but military objectives as well?
25 A. Yes. They would be consistent with my view that they were --
1 they originated with the civilian leadership and were assigned to and
2 accepted by the military leaders of the VRS.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Now, in respect of this document, I don't have any
5 other questions, Your Honour.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Apparently, the B/C/S version is too
7 small for Mr. Perisic to be able to read it in the original, so I don't
8 know if it can be enlarged or if Ms. Edgerton could just read out what
9 she's referring to, then he would be appreciative of what specifically is
10 being discussed.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, is it possible to enlarge it?
12 Mr. Perisic, are you able to see it now?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Apparently, it's the wrong page. I'm going to
14 defer here to Mr. Lukic because he's a native speaker and he might be of
15 a little bit more assistance.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, can you help us?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This page in the B/C/S version,
18 although it has these dots and visually seems to correspond to the
19 English version, has absolutely nothing to do with the English version.
20 These things are totally different.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, can you come to the rescue?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, it would be simplest if
23 Ms. Edgerton just read the text out in English, and then we'll be able to
24 hear what the interpreters from the B/C/S booth have to say. This will
25 make it easier for us to follow, because otherwise it will be difficult
1 for us to follow everything. If it is read out in English and
2 interpreted into B/C/S, the witness can then give his opinion, and it
3 will be easier for all of us to follow.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, are you able to do that?
5 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, I am, Your Honours, and I wouldn't be
6 able to provide you with any other kind of hard copy or answer as quickly
7 as it would take me to read the relevant portion out, so with your
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Just put the copy of the translation on,
10 read it, and let it be interpreted.
11 MS. EDGERTON: No, Mr. Registrar, with respect, I can't read the
12 Cyrillic version. Page 159 of the translation, please. I see it --
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have now been provided with the
14 page in the B/C/S version, and it corresponds to the English version.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Wonderful.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just wait for the registrar to give us the
18 English side of the story.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Meanwhile, Your Honours, if I may, I would like
20 to make a correction regarding Exhibit P203 which he discussed earlier.
21 Only pages 1, 51, and 55 were admitted on 10 November; therefore, page 14
22 is admitted today.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much, Madam Registrar, and I
24 think that's what we did today.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Now, not to leave P149 immediately, just for the
1 sake of absolute clarity, and for the record, which is, of course, most
2 important, can I indicate that this page, which Mr. Lukic says is the
3 corresponding page, bears the ERN number 0060-7477.
4 And if I could have some guidance as to which e-court page number
5 this is, that would be very helpful, because on my screen it only shows
6 up as page 1 of 1, or a 65 ter number; just to make sure we have all the
7 information to be able to identify this page on the record.
8 I'm advised it's page 139.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 139 in the B/C/S?
10 MS. EDGERTON: In the B/C/S, I'm advised it's page 139 of 65
11 ter 00379. Perhaps, since this matter is going to go over until
12 tomorrow, Mr. Lukic and I could just double-check that, and advise Your
13 Honours tomorrow morning as to what we're able to agree on.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 I should say, Your Honour, I'm about to move into another theme,
17 and I note the time. I'm in Your Honours' hands. It's not going to be a
18 five-minute theme.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got ten. I don't whether you can -- can it
20 be a ten-minute theme?
21 MS. EDGERTON: We'll see, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's try.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. Dr. Donia, to remain with your report on the background to the
25 siege of Sarajevo
1 noted reference to the census of 1991 in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 You're familiar with that census?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. How so?
5 A. I've been looking at it for a number of years with the purpose of
6 understanding the situation on the eve of the war and also the changes in
7 demographic distribution of groups from earlier censuses.
8 Q. Now, this and earlier censuses you've mentioned, are these the
9 only sources you've consulted with a view to understanding the changes
10 of -- changes in demographic distribution of groups in
12 A. No. The whole issue of the 1991 census was, in fact, then and
13 remains, controversial, so there is a substantial body of literature in
14 the press from the time and subsequent articles analysing the census and
15 assessing its validity and its import.
16 Q. Could you give us an idea of exactly what other sources you've
17 consulted in this regard?
18 A. Well, there are some articles by demographers. There are some
19 articles - I can't give you specific names - but there's a very nice
20 article by a human demographer -- I'm sorry, a geographer, human
21 geographer, in a journal that looks at the relationship between the
22 competition between groups and subsequent violence in individual
23 municipalities. There was also a very, I thought, illuminating series of
24 articles in Oslobodjenje at the time about the census and its
1 Q. Given all this, I wonder if you could very briefly explain to us
2 how the different ethnic groups in Bosnia-Herzegovina were distributed
3 around the republic -- former republic.
4 A. There was a broad distribution throughout the republic of --
5 throughout most of the republic of all three major ethnic groups. The
6 distribution had some exceptions. There are very few -- or were very few
7 Croats along the eastern part of Bosnia
8 in western Herzegovina
9 Croat; another part of the western segment of Bosnia that is almost
10 exclusively Serb; and, finally, kind of an enclave in the north-west
11 which is almost exclusively Bosnian Muslim.
12 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if I could now call up a map which
13 appears as 65 ter number 9224. It's map 5 in Your Honours' map books,
14 Your Honours' and my friends' map books. That might take a couple of
15 minutes to come up. 9224. Very quick.
16 Q. Dr. Donia, do you see a map on the screen in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Do you recognise it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us what it is?
21 A. This is a map produced by a private provider AlterMedia on the
22 basis of census results from 1991 which presents the distribution of
23 ethnic groups by municipalities in a rather unusual way. It gives -- it
24 assigns a colour to the majority group in that municipality, whether that
25 majority is absolute or relative; and then represents other groups by
1 means of vertical bars. And in a series of data that I think are very
2 difficult to accurately present visually, this comes as close as I have
3 seen of representing the situation in each individual municipality.
4 Q. Now, just to be -- so that we're all clear, is each ethnic group
5 assigned a different colour?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. So I see this map is in various shades of green, red, and blue.
8 Can you explain what those colours represent?
9 A. The red is Serbs. The red colour is Serb absolute majority in
10 that municipality; lined-through is Serb relative majority. Blue is
11 Croats, and green is Muslims.
12 Q. Have you worked with and analysed this map before?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. Have you compared the data as represented in this map to other
15 demographic sources you've consulted in the course of your research?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. And do you find the representations, then, on this map to be
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, going back again to the strategic objectives that we've
21 discussed earlier and where you referred to another map as an
22 illustrative tool, could I now ask you to take the computer pen from the
23 monitor in front of you and indicate the territorial parameters,
24 approximately, of strategic objective number 2; that being a corridor
25 between Semberija and Krajina.
1 A. Okay. This is fancy.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Welcome to the world of technology.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
4 That corridor runs just approximately - and I'd have to say it's
5 at most an approximation - but the bar of the barbell here is what we're
6 speaking to in the case of the -- what's called the corridor or the
7 Posavina Corridor.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Now, you've indicated, on the record, you've drawn a barbell, so
10 I see that, two circles linked by an oblong. Could you explain what the
11 circle on the right-hand represents?
12 A. Well, that's Semberija area with its probably major city being
14 Q. And the bar on -- sorry, the circle on the left-hand?
15 A. The circle on the left is my rather pathetic representation of
16 the territory of Bosnian Krajina.
17 Q. And the oblong between the two?
18 A. Yes. That's the area of the corridor.
19 Q. Now, in your view, and looking at what you've mapped out on this
20 map, does the achievement or would the achievement of strategic objective
21 number 2 transect any ethnic group?
22 A. The achievement of the strategic goal would transect a large
23 population of Croats and Muslims in the Posavina Corridor.
24 Q. Now, again, using this map as an illustration, could you roughly
25 indicate the territorial parameters of strategic objective 3?
1 MS. EDGERTON: And I wonder if there's a way, Mr. Registrar, that
2 Dr. Donia could do that in another colour than the red colour that he's
3 marked with.
4 Q. I think you can go ahead, Dr. Donia.
5 A. Recognising that the goal itself was imprecise and my
6 representation will be even less precise, we're talking approximately
7 about this area there.
8 Q. Now, the area that you've marked in blue representing, very
9 approximately as you've indicated, the territory covered by strategic
10 objective number 3, in your view and using this map as an illustration,
11 would the achievement of strategic objective number 3 transect any ethnic
13 A. Yes. As I've indicated, there are very few Croats living in --
14 were very few Croats living in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the
15 eastern boundary, but it transects an area which is very mixed
16 population -- has a very mixed population of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Edgerton, if you can work towards rounding
18 up your ten minutes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: I can round it very quickly, Your Honour, if I
20 could request that this be marked as the next Prosecution exhibit,
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're ending there with your strategic
23 objectives --
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- for the day.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 The map as marked is admitted into evidence. May it please be
4 given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P338, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Noting the time, Your Honour, perhaps it would be
8 an appropriate time to break.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Dr. Donia, we are still not done with you. I'm sure I'm carrying
11 coal to Newcastle
12 you may not discuss this case with anybody else - not with your counsel,
13 not with anybody - until you are excused.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then we stand adjourned
16 until tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom, Courtroom I.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of
20 November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.