1 Tuesday, 3 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have the appearances
12 for the day starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel. Mark Harmon,
14 Daniel Saxon, April Carter, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and
17 good afternoon to everyone participating in the proceedings today.
18 Mr. Perisic will be represented by Milos Androvic; Tina Drolec; our case
19 manager, Daniela Tasic; and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith; and Novak Lukic.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Good afternoon, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you are still bound by the
23 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Mr. Lukic.
2 WITNESS: MILAN
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Gunj.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I will now resume from the point where you -- following the same
8 chronology as was followed in your answers to Mr. Harmon. You said
9 yesterday that you informed your superior Mr. Jovanovic that
10 General Mladic and his entourage were -- of their presence in the Rajac
11 facility only after you were told by Mr. Banduka that you can go and tell
12 him of that; is that correct?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And this was approximately a few days after they arrived?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. You also said that Mr. Jovanovic seemed surprised when he
17 received the information; correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Did Mr. Jovanovic tell you on that occasion how to behave and
20 what to do? Were you issued any instructions by him?
21 A. I informed him of the situation and the issue and current
22 situation regarding the food supplies and other resources that they
23 needed, and also what they had at their disposal, and also what their
24 proposal was as to how we could help them on those issues.
25 Q. And then he issued some instructions to you as your superior?
1 A. Yes. He instructed me to inform him of anything that I need and
2 that he will relay it to his superiors and that I can start
3 requisitioning these goods.
4 Q. I assume that in this first period, time-period, which was about
5 a month long, you had occasion to see and talk to Mr. Jovanovic again?
6 A. Certainly.
7 Q. During this period of time, did you ever hear Mr. Jovanovic say
8 that he had ever been contacted from the General Staff by anyone
10 A. No, I never heard anything like that.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move into private
12 session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3849-3850 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Gunj, can I just ask you one more thing that we did not hear
19 anything about during the evidence in chief. How many of your men, you
20 mentioned this colonel who informed you, Spasojevic or Stevanovic?
21 A. Spasojevic.
22 Q. How many men, how many men, your men, were in the facility, I
23 mean, Yugoslav Army men?
24 A. At this time it was only Mr. Spasojevic, and in June there was
25 another soldier under contract, so there were the two of them and myself.
1 We were members of -- the only members from my unit.
2 Q. And I assume that they were there around the clock, 24 hours a
3 day; there would always be someone?
4 A. For the most part.
5 Q. I also understood you to say that you went there occasionally,
6 from time to time. When you say from time to time, what do you mean by
8 A. Well, I was there almost non-stop, but very frequently I would
9 have to travel during the day in order to purchase items that we needed
10 and so on, but then I would return in the evening and spend the night
11 there. This would have been maybe every other or every third day, and
12 sometimes I would go away every day.
13 Q. Could you please just make a brief pause after my question.
14 Now, tell us, did you hear from your soldiers who were there, or
15 maybe from the locals, that General Mladic went to Gik or to Milanovac?
16 Do you remember?
17 A. I heard this later on from the local people when General Mladic
18 had already moved to another location, and these people told me because
19 they recognised him while he went out for a walk. They recognised and
20 saw him there.
21 Q. Could you please now tell the Trial Chamber what Gik is and what
23 THE INTERPRETER: Ljig. Interpreter's correction: Ljig.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. -- and what Milanovac is, and how far they are?
1 A. These were not Ljig or Milanovac. These were hamlets not far
2 from the facility, about 5 kilometres at most.
3 Q. So you heard from the villagers, from these hamlets that he took
4 walks in that area in the first -- during this first time-period, the
5 first month?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. When Mr. Mladic left this facility in 1997, and I'm referring to
8 this first visit, you said that -- as far as I understood you, that when
9 you met his security men, the men from his entourage in Topcider, you
10 heard from them that he was also in the Stragari hotel, in that facility,
11 that he went there too?
12 A. Yes. As I told you, I had to go to Topcider -- to that unit from
13 time to time, and there I would meet these men, the security men, and
14 they just mentioned on their own these things from which I drew the
15 conclusion that Mr. Mladic was there.
16 Q. Was this a fact that was also known to other people in this
17 barracks in Topcider? Generally, did they know that these people were
18 present in the barrack and also about General Mladic's presence?
19 A. Well, I didn't have any official contact to learn this from them,
20 but I only had occasion to speak to these people outdoors when we were in
21 the yard or on the perimeter, and I would meet these security men, and
22 they would tell me about this.
23 Q. And did you notice it later -- did you hear it from someone later
25 A. No, I didn't notice any of this.
1 Q. Let me just try and recap what you said to Mr. Harmon about how
2 many times General Mladic came to your facility together with his
3 entourage. From what you said, your evidence on page 21, yesterday's
4 page 21, you said that the first visit was over a month long, maybe even
5 two months long. This was in the summer of 1997; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Next, you said that he came and stayed up to eight days in late
8 January and early February, 1998?
9 A. Yes, up to seven days. That's correct.
10 Q. In other words, a week. Let's be unspecific and yet clear
12 I understood that in the following years he would come
13 occasionally and stay for a day or so.
14 A. Yes, he came on several occasions. He would come in the morning
15 and then leave in the afternoon. There were two such visits.
16 Q. We are talking now about 1999 and 2000; correct?
17 A. 1998 and 1999. Approximately, this was at the same time of the
18 year, end of January, early February, and I already mentioned in my
19 earlier evidence that I'm not sure of 2000, whether he came, but if he
20 did it would have been for a shorter period of time and probably at the
21 same season, same time of the year.
22 Q. So what you were referring to in 1998, he was there just at one
23 time, the period that you described, end of January, early February?
24 A. In 1998, he came in late January, early February, because there
25 was some kind of hunting event there, so he came to our facility in order
1 to seek shelter because there were a lot of people there. And then he
2 came, I can't recall whether this was in autumn or late summer, but he
3 came for one day. And I think, I'm not sure, but I think Mr. Perisic was
4 present too.
5 Q. In other words, in 1998 he came on two occasions, this early
6 visit in late January, early February, and then another visit; when did
7 you say?
8 A. Well, I can't say for sure whether this was in early summer or
9 late summer. I know it was warm, but he did come for one day.
10 Q. So that was the time when you had an immediate contact with
11 General Perisic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Very well. During these subsequent visits, and we are talking
14 about the period after 1998, he never announced his visits, did he?
15 A. You are talking about the arrivals from [indiscernible]? No,
16 they were announced. I knew I had to prepare the facility for the team
17 that was supposed to arrive.
18 Q. But nobody called you from the office of the chief of the General
19 Staff to announce those visits?
20 A. You're right, nobody did.
21 Q. Who called you to announce the visits?
22 A. It was my colleague that I contacted. He was the head of service
23 down there, and before the arrival and the transfer of the team, General
24 Curcin would also -- and General Vukovic also told me to prepare the
25 facility because the activity would take place, and because of the
1 organisational reasons I was in frequent contact with a colleague of mine
2 who was at the head of service down there.
3 Q. Since you were not in Stragari, you obviously don't know
4 personally whether he was in Stragari all the time between the two visits
5 to Rajac?
6 A. I was never there personally, but according to the information
7 that I had from the same people after the first arrival, I realised that
8 he was there all the time, but I was never there personally. I was never
9 on the spot.
10 Q. So you understood during the conversation that he was there, but
11 you didn't know whether he was there all the time; am I right?
12 A. I'm telling you from my contacts with them and from my subsequent
13 meeting with Mr. Bozovic, the head of Stragari in Belgrade, I knew the
14 gentleman was there.
15 Q. Mr. Bozovic, did he tell you that he was in Stragari all the
17 A. No, he did not say that expressly, but judging from the course of
18 the conversation and the topics that we tackled, it was obvious that he
19 was there. That's what I inferred.
20 Q. This is what I was going ask you. This was your inference, not
21 the fact that you heard from him; am I right?
22 A. What do you mean my inference, my conclusion?
23 Q. Let me put it this way. When they arrived at Rajac for the
24 second time, nobody told you, We were in Stragari all the time before we
25 arrived here?
1 A. Nobody told me that expressly; however, from my conversations and
2 contacts with the people who were around -- surrounding that activity, I
3 was convinced that that activity was taking place down there. That's the
4 information that I received.
5 Q. I'm just looking for precise information and precise answer to my
6 question. Nobody told you expressly he was there all the time. You
7 concluded that?
8 A. You are right. Nobody expressly said it, but I concluded that
9 that was the case.
10 Q. Very well. And now yesterday, when you were talking about this
11 encounter during the one day arrival at Rajac and when you met with
12 General Perisic, you said that -- this is on page 38 of yesterday's
13 LiveNote, you said that there was General Curcin there. Let me just
14 consult my notes to be very precise in putting my question to you.
15 You said this on page 38, line 21, of yesterday's LiveNote:
16 [In English] "It was one-day stay. General Mladic and General
17 Curcin and General Vukovic with his wife were there, and General Perisic
18 arrived also."
19 [Interpretation] General Perisic arrived later. He did not
20 arrive with them?
21 A. You are right. General Perisic arrived later. They were already
22 there when Perisic arrived.
23 Q. And yesterday when you described your dialogue with Mr. Perisic,
24 I understood that it was his suggestion, a suggestion on his part, an
25 informal conversation not to speak about these things; it was not an
2 A. Yes. It was just a suggestion, informal, on the terrace in front
3 of the hall, and that's how I understood it, just the way I did when I
4 received the first suggestion. This was normal. There were no raised
5 voices. I did not sense that this was an order or anything to the effect
6 of an order.
7 Q. So this was a year after the first visit?
8 A. Yes. Well, if that was in early summer, then it would a bit less
9 than a year.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have just completed my
11 cross-examination, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
13 Mr. Harmon.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Harmon:
15 Q. Mr. Gunj, yesterday my colleague Mr. Lukic showed you Defence
16 Exhibit 55, and he directed your attention to a particular portion of
17 that, which indicated that the order pursuant to which your status had
18 been regulated was issued on the 19th of May, 1997. Do you remember that
19 testimony? If not, I can bring up D55 and show you the document. Do you
20 recall that being the date in which your status as -- actually, let's do
21 it quite easily.
22 MR. HARMON: Can you bring up D55, please, Registrar, and can you
23 go to page 4. Can we scroll to the bottom of this. Yes, thank you.
24 Q. Now, on the right-hand side, lower right-hand side, Mr. Gunj,
25 there is a set of numbers, and it says "19.5.97." I understood that to
1 be the date on which you received an order. Do you recall that order
2 that you received?
3 A. Are you referring to the bottom part of this table where it says
5 Q. Yes, sir, the far right-hand side, the far column on the right.
6 A. 19 May 1997.
7 Q. Correct. Was that the order that ordered you to become the hotel
8 manager at Rajac and Topcider hotels?
9 A. I suppose that that was the case. However, as far as I can
10 remember, I assumed my duties towards the end of May or around the 1st of
11 June, rather. And maybe this date indicates the date when the order was
12 actually drafted and issued.
13 Q. Now, when was the first time -- actually, prior to this order
14 being drafted, Mr. Gunj, had you ever been to the hotel Topcider and the
15 hotel Rajac?
16 A. Yes, I was. I was in Rajac but not in Topcider.
17 Q. And prior to the 19th of May, 1997, what were you doing at the
18 hotel Rajac?
19 A. I believe that that was in 1995 or 1996. I was assisting the
20 then-manager with my team of cooks and waiters. The occasion was the
21 celebration of the day of the Army of Yugoslavia for the 1st Army. That
22 was taking place in the facility. He couldn't do it on his own. I had
23 to come to assist him because there was a lot of people, a lot of food.
24 It was a major event that had to be organised, and I was engaged to
25 assist him with that.
1 Q. And can you -- what was your prior assignment prior to becoming
2 the manager at the hotel Rajac and Topcider? What were your duties and
4 A. I was the head of one shift in the central military mess in the
5 Topcider barracks, and I was also the deputy of the head of the hall
7 Q. Would that position, Mr. Gunj, be reflected in the box, second
8 box from the bottom on the far left?
9 A. Yes. It is reflected above the thing that we have just spoken
11 Q. Correct. So it's above the box that says you are the hotel
12 manager at the Topcider and the Rajac facilities?
13 A. Yes, sir, you are right. Absolutely, yes.
14 Q. When you received your orders to become the manager at the hotel
15 Topcider and the hotel Rajac, when was the first time after you received
16 those orders that you went to the hotel Rajac?
17 A. You mean after I received my orders on becoming the manager? I
18 believe that I arrived a few days earlier before assuming my duties, and
19 my colleague and -- who was my predecessor and I were given some time to
20 hand over duties, which means that we were there together for some eight
21 days to hand over the duties and to hand over all the material and
22 equipment that was in the hotels.
23 Q. All right. So once you arrived, you had to consult with the
24 predecessor and familiarise yourself with the facilities, familiarise
25 yourself with the materials that were there before you could assume your
1 duty; is that correct?
2 A. Correct. You're right.
3 Q. And how long did it take you to become familiar with both the
4 Rajac facility, the hotel, and the Topcider hotel?
5 A. Well, I believe that it took me some ten days before I assumed my
6 duties. It took me between the 20th of May and the end of June, during
7 which period of time the handover was taking place.
8 MR. HARMON: All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Gunj.
9 I have no additional questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I shall speak French now. What
13 were the administrative procedures and the accountancy procedures which
14 you followed as a manager of these military hotels? You said that you
15 had received no written order for furnishing equipment or food to
16 General Mladic and his entourage, but you were spending money, weren't
17 you, since you were the one who would go and purchase food and whatever
18 was needed; therefore, you were obliged to report from an accountancy
19 point of view. You certainly didn't take this money out of your own
20 salary, did you?
21 A. When the team arrived at the facility, Mr. Banduka had some
22 funds, some cash on him. He would give me that, and in agreement with
23 him I would go and purchase everything that was necessary to top up the
24 supplies, and gradually supplies started from the military depots. That
25 was the system at the beginning. That food was not accounted for, the
1 food that was bought for cash or the food that was taken from military
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, during all the time
4 General Mladic and his entourage were residing in the hotels of this
5 Yugoslav Army, the food and other elements were paid cash during all this
7 A. No, not in cash. As I've told you in my previous answer, at the
8 beginning a few days into their stay, cash was used to pay for the food,
9 and the cash came from team members, so this was not the money, either
10 mine or from the army. And as we spent all of their supplies, we
11 increased the supplies from the central military supplies. And then as
12 the money increased, we were able to rely more on the supply from the
13 military supplies and less from purchasing goods on the free market.
14 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] But in such a case you had to
15 justify, when you were taking all these supplies on the allotment of the
16 army, you had to justify the reason why you were asking for all that;
17 isn't it the case?
18 A. Well, I was not the one who had to do that. I suppose this was
19 done by the people who issued me with all these things. I don't know how
20 they did that. I don't know how they defined their duties. As far as
21 I'm concerned, everything that I needed I could take from the supplies.
22 Everything was approved, and I suppose those people had assessed on how
23 to justify for an increased issuance of supply from the depot.
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Gunj, before the very first visit by General
1 Mladic to this facility, what activities on a day-to-day basis took place
2 in this place?
3 A. Are you referring to Rajac hotel?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm referring to Rajac hotel. That's where you
5 were, isn't it?
6 A. First, we had organisational preparations to tidy up the hotel
7 for its intended purpose, and the purpose was for the hotel to be
8 equipped and tidied up for the rest and recreation of the members of the
9 Army of Yugoslavia
10 and planning how to carry out the necessary works. We started to plan
11 our finances and the timing for all the works that needed to be done in
12 order to prepare hotel to be able to carry out its purpose.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once you had finished preparations, what then took
14 place on a day-to-day basis in the hotel?
15 A. We started some minimum preparations --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are finished with the preparations. Once you
17 were prepared and everything was ready and the hotel was ready to run,
18 what took place? What activities took place in this building?
19 A. I did not understand your question. Could you please repeat it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, the hotel has a purpose. Now, you became a
21 manager there and you say you got there, you prepared it for its purpose.
22 What was the purpose?
23 A. The plan and the purpose was that in a foreseeable future, since
24 the hotel was in a very poor state of repairs and there was nothing much
25 in the hotel in terms of equipment, we wanted to prepare it to serve for
1 the rest and recreation of the members of the army.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, after you had repaired it and you had
3 prepared it, did the members of the army come there on a regular basis?
4 That's my question.
5 A. Members of the army started arriving gradually after General
6 Mladic left, after his first stay with his team. Then the conditions
7 were in place for us to start accommodating members of the army and their
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question initially was, before Mr. Mladic came
10 there the very first time and after you had prepared this hotel and had
11 repaired it and it was ready for its purpose, what activities on a
12 day-to-day took place in the hotel? Did anything take place or not?
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are getting no translation.
15 A. There were no activities taking place. Nobody arrived at the
16 hotel, neither the members of the army or their family members.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And during Mr. Mladic's stay in the hotel, did
18 these people come? Did anybody come to the hotel outside his entourage?
19 A. No, nobody, just Mr. Mladic and his entourage. There were no
20 other guests. There were no other activities taking place. Mr. Mladic
21 and his team were there on their own, as it were.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What staff complement did you have when you first
23 -- when you finished preparing the hotel for its purpose? Even before
24 Mr. Mladic came to the hotel.
25 A. When I assumed my duties, there were just two professionals in
1 the hotel. A few days later, one of them resigned and left the hotel and
2 just one remained. So for the first month before Mr. Mladic arrived,
3 there were just some of my subordinate units from Belgrade who were
4 commissioned to do the works, and those were different handymen,
5 decorators, who were brought in to gradually and slowly prepare the hotel
6 for its purpose.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we try to stay a little chronological and
8 clear. I'm now talking to you about the time when the preparations had
9 been finished. Okay. You've told us that you were -- two of your
10 professionals were there. Now, amongst the three of you and between the
11 two of you after the other one had resigned, you attended to the cleaning
12 and the cooking and everything that had to be done in the hotel? Just
13 the two of you?
14 A. We attended to what we were actually able to do, and the command
15 helped by sending teams of electricians, plumbers, and house painters,
16 because the building was rather derelict. It was in a poor condition, so
17 it needed quite a lot of men to work on it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Gunj, can we please understand each other.
19 I'm done with the preparation of the building. I'm now in the running of
20 the building. Can you please forget about going back to the preparation
21 of the building. Just listen to the questions that I'm putting to you,
22 and try to answer the questions as I put you to them. Don't formulate
23 the question for yourself and answer it.
24 I'm asking you, when this building was ready to run and the
25 preparations were finished, did you and your two colleagues before the
1 one resigned and you and your one colleague after the other had resigned,
2 just the three of you, deal with the day-to-day work that had to be done
3 in this building, in the running of the business, not in the preparation?
4 A. Yes. As far as we were able to, yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand you to say that when guests
6 came to the hotel, you catered for them, just the two of you, you did the
7 cooking, the cleaning of the rooms, everything that needs to be done
8 between the two of you?
9 A. Your Honour, there weren't any guests. They only started
10 arriving after Mr. Mladic and his entourage left the hotel for the first
11 time. It was only then that the hotel gradually started receiving
12 guests. Before that, the only thing we did was preparing the hotel, and
13 then Mladic's arrival interrupted those preparations.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I'm talking to you about the time when you
15 were running the hotel, sir. You keep going back to preparations.
16 Obviously, when I'm talking about the time when you were running the
17 hotel, I'm referring also to the time after Mladic left. When the guests
18 came to the hotel after Mladic left, what complement of staff did you
19 have to cater for your guests?
20 A. Well, that was when we started receiving new staff members. We
21 received two or three new staff members then.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when General Mladic was there for the month,
23 were you there with the two professionals or with the one only? In other
24 words, was it during the time when you had the two of them, or was it
25 after one had resigned?
1 A. When Mr. Mladic arrived with his entourage, there was just me and
2 another staff member. Ten days later, we received another professional
3 soldier so that at the time of Mr. Mladic's stay there, there were two
4 professional staff members in addition to myself.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And were any instructions given to these two about
6 Mr. Mladic's stay at the hotel, to keep it secret like you were told?
7 Are you aware of any instructions being given to them?
8 A. As far as I know, they did not receive any instructions from
9 anyone else, but I conveyed to them what had been said to me.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You just told them what was told to you, or did
11 you ask them also to do the same?
12 A. I told them what I had been told, and I said that they should do
13 the same, that they should abide by that just as I did.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It's time for a break. We'll come back at
15 quarter to 4.00. I beg your pardon. I'm sorry. Okay. We still have
16 more time.
17 Let me move to the next topic, then.
18 You indicated during cross-examination this afternoon that Mr.
19 Mladic, who would go out for a walk to some hamlet in the neighbourhood,
20 apart from going for these walks, are you aware of him having gone in and
21 out with his entourage or even alone for other destinations during his
22 stay there? Was he moving in and out of the hotel freely, or was he just
23 staying in the hotel except for these little walks?
24 A. For the first few days, Mr. Mladic stayed in the hotel all the
25 time. After some ten days or so, he, with a few members of his
1 entourage, began going out in civilian clothes on his own initiative and
2 to take walks along the footpaths, and his walks grew longer and longer,
3 and then they would come back. I observed that.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are saying in civilian clothes. Were they in
5 military clothes or in some uniform of sorts while they were in the
7 A. No, no, they wore civilian clothes all the time. They were
8 wearing civilian clothes when they arrived, and they wore civilian
9 clothes throughout their stay.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: When they went out apart from the walks, did they
11 drive out in their cars, or what happened?
12 A. No, they did not go out in vehicles or cars.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did they receive any visitors other than members
14 of the army that you have already told us about who you said visited
15 them? Did they receive any other visitors apart from those people?
16 A. To the best of my knowledge, they received no other visitors
17 apart from the persons I've already mentioned.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say that you indicated in your
19 evidence in chief that Mr. Mladic had brought his own cook?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That cook, did he cook for him for the entire
22 stay, or did you ever have to help with your staff?
23 A. That cook cooked food for him and his whole entourage. One of my
24 men occasionally assisted with the washing up or clearing away of
25 garbage, but he did not participate in preparing the food.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the Bench's questions,
2 Mr. Harmon?
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, I have just a couple of questions.
4 Further re-examination by Mr. Harmon:
5 Q. Mr. Gunj, you said that General Mladic and members of his
6 entourage went on some walks on the footpaths. Is the hotel Rajac in a
7 rural area? Is it an urban area? Is it an isolated area? How would you
8 describe it?
9 A. The Rajac hotel is on a mountain, a small mountain far away from
10 other inhabited places, and around our villages and hamlets and mostly
11 weekend cottages belonging to people who spend weekends and holidays
12 there. So the nearest villages are about a kilometre and a half away.
13 MR. HARMON: Thank you, no additional questions.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: No questions.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Gunj, thank you so much.
17 This brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you for coming to
18 testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused, and you may stand down.
19 Please travel well back home.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you going on your feet, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, before Mr. Saxon assumes this position,
24 could we go into private session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 3871-3873 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I believe you are calling the witness.
15 Good afternoon, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please make the declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
21 Mr. Saxon.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: MLADEN MIHAJLOVIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, can you hear me?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Can you please state your full name, please?
4 A. My name is Mladen Mihajlovic. I'm a retired general from Serbia
5 Q. You say you are a retired general?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you serve both in the JNA and later what was called the VJ?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And, General, approximately for how many years did you serve as a
10 military officer?
11 A. Forty years. Forty years of -- actual years of service.
12 Q. And at the time of your retirement, what was your specific rank?
13 A. Colonel-general. I was retired as a colonel-general.
14 Q. What year did you retire from the army?
15 A. I retired in 1999.
16 Q. Did you have a particular specialty within the army?
17 A. Yes. My specialty is engineering.
18 Q. In March of 1991, what was your position?
19 A. I became the chief of the operations section and also the deputy
20 chief of the engineering administration with the Main Staff -- the
21 General Staff.
22 Q. When you say you became chief of the operations section, did you
23 mean to use the word "section" or the word "sector"?
24 A. Administration for engineering.
25 Q. I understand it's administration for engineering. You mentioned
1 that you were the chief of the -- never mind, I will move on.
2 Briefly, what was the work of the engineering administration?
3 A. The engineering administration at whose head I was at the time
4 had to monitor the situation with combat readiness, especially the
5 engineering units, to propose certain measures and take steps in order to
6 ensure that the combat readiness is improved.
7 Q. Well, when we refer to the engineering administration, what kind
8 of work are we talking about? What kind of activities are we talking
10 A. Well, it was involved in drawing up plans for combat training in
11 engineering at the army level, and also providing equipment for
12 engineering -- for the engineering arm with engineering equipment and
13 also units of other arms of the army, providing them with engineering
14 equipment. It also drafted proposals for the development of new
15 technical equipment and their introduction as part of the standard
16 equipment of the army. It also drew up or prepared texts for rules of
17 combat use -- for use of engineering units in combat.
18 Q. Thank you, General. Did the engineering administration deal with
19 materials such as mines and explosives?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. In 1993, did you take up another position?
22 A. Toward the end of 1993, I was appointed chief of the engineering
23 administration with the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.
24 Q. So you were then a member of the General Staff; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And for how many years were you a member of the General Staff of
2 the Yugoslav Army?
3 A. Until my retirement in 1999. In other words, for six years I was
4 the chief of the engineering administration.
5 Q. And during those six years, did you become familiar with the
6 structure and the work of the General Staff?
7 A. Yes, in general terms. I'm not acquainted with every detail, but
9 Q. All right. Let's talk for a few moments about the structure of
10 the General Staff of the VJ. In October 1993, when you became chief of
11 the engineering department, who was the chief of the General Staff?
12 A. I think that at this time the chief of the General Staff was Mr.
13 -- General Perisic. I'm not sure exactly whether it was a bit before
14 that time or a little later.
15 Q. And did the chief of the General Staff have an office to assist
16 him with his work?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that sometimes called a cabinet?
19 A. Cabinet, yes, that's how I know it. The cabinet of the Chief of
20 the General Staff.
21 Q. Did the Chief of the General Staff have a deputy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In addition to the members of the cabinet and the deputy of the
24 chief, did the General Staff have other members?
25 A. At the second level, there were assistant chiefs of the General
1 Staff who were at the same time the chiefs of sectors for certain areas
2 and operations in the various branches of the army, as well as chiefs of
3 independent administrations.
4 Q. And just very briefly, can you name some of the sectors which had
5 assistants to the Chief of the General Staff?
6 A. Well, I've already mentioned the operations sector, the sectors
7 for the various branches for the land forces, the air forces, and the
8 navy. These were all various sectors. Then there was the logistics
9 sector, and I believe the informations and signals sector or
10 communications sector. There were also some independent administrations
11 for morale, for intelligence, and so on.
12 Q. Did these assistants to the Chief of the General Staff have a
13 command function over VJ units?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Then what function did these assistants have?
16 A. Well, as I've already mentioned for the engineering
17 administration, the same kind of work was within the purview of these
18 various sectors within their own areas of work. I don't know if there
19 was a sector that also had a unit attached to it or under its command.
20 Q. Did these assistants for different sectors provide advice to the
21 Chief of the General Staff about their sectors?
22 A. Yes. There is no function of counsellor in the army, but the
23 chiefs of sector, at the same time they provided advice.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned the land army sector of the VJ. What was the
25 land army sector comprised of?
1 A. The ground forces sector had a department, an operations
2 department, and it also had administrations of various arms of the army,
3 such as infantry artillery, armoured forces, biological warfare,
4 chemical, and nuclear warfare.
5 Q. And the land army sector also contained the engineering
6 administration; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And as the head of the engineering section -- administration, who
9 did you report to?
10 A. I was subordinate to the chief of the sector for the ground
11 forces, or land army, directly subordinate to him.
12 Q. You mentioned an operations sector of the VJ. What was the
13 function of this sector?
14 A. As a rule, I can say that this sector dealt with planning. I
15 don't know what all the competences of all the other sectors were, but
16 mainly they dealt with planning.
17 Q. Did the assistant to the Chief of the General Staff for the
18 operation sector have an important role?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why is that?
21 A. That was the first sector that brought together the proposals
22 coming from the other sectors, the information coming from the army, and
23 prepared the basic combat documents for the needs of the army.
24 Q. Okay. You mentioned there was a logistics sector of the VJ,
25 logistics sector of the VJ General Staff. What was the function of the
1 logistics sector?
2 A. The main function was supplying the army with equipment and
3 materiel of all kinds.
4 Q. Do you know if the logistics sector had different departments or
6 A. The logistics sector to the best of my recollection had an
7 operations administration for the rear, a planning organ, and it had the
8 administrations office services, the quartermaster service, the technical
9 service, the traffic service, the medical service. I think I've
10 enumerated them all.
11 Q. Let's talk a little bit more about your role as the chief of the
12 engineering administration. What were your responsibilities?
13 A. As I've mentioned, primarily my main responsibility was to
14 monitor the development of the units of the arm of service and other
15 units as regards their ability to use engineering equipment and supplying
16 them with engineering equipment.
17 Q. Were you ever involved in decisions regarding the replenishment
18 of engineering equipment or materiel to parts of the VJ?
19 A. Yes. In the engineering administration, we kept records and
20 monitored the situation as regards replenishment; and depending on the
21 resources available, we made plans for replenishing the units.
22 Q. Okay. And in addition to plans, did you ever make
23 recommendations about replenishment or purchase of materials?
24 A. Yes. Yes. The replenishment implies requisition, procurement.
25 If the equipment is new, there has to be a procedure for introducing new
1 types of equipment. All this was done by the administration in order to
2 replenish the units according to their establishment and their needs.
3 Q. And when you made recommendations pertaining to replenishment of
4 materiel, to whom would you send your recommendations?
5 A. The replenishment system went according to plan. Periodic plans
6 were drawn up, 5-year plans, 1-year plans, where every arm and every
7 service based on the situation in their units drew up a plan for every
8 year by type of equipment. These plans were actually a wish list. They
9 weren't usually implemented because the resources available were meager,
10 so the wish list had to be reduced to whatever was possible. There were
11 sanctions imposed in those years. There was no import. Our own industry
12 was having difficulties, so replenishment was a problem.
13 Q. Thank you, General, but my question was a bit different. My
14 question was simply this: When you made --
15 A. I do apologise.
16 Q. Oh, it's my fault because I think my question was not clear.
17 When you made recommendations about what equipment to replenish
18 -- should be replenished, what equipment should not be replenished, to
19 whom would you make these recommendations? To whom would you send these
21 A. The recommendations were sent according to a prescribed
22 procedure. They went to the sector for the ground forces. They would
23 send this on to the logistics sector. Then it would go to the ministry
24 or to the Chief of the General Staff. I'm not quite sure about that
25 part. And then, as I've already mentioned, the financial organs of the
1 Ministry of Defence sent the plans back, telling us what funds we had
2 available, what the quotas were, what we had to work with.
3 Q. Thank you. I'm going to stop you there.
4 You mentioned that your recommendation would go to the ministry
5 or to the Chief of the General Staff. Would the Chief of the General
6 Staff, to your knowledge, then make decisions about what materiels would
7 be replenished and what would not?
8 A. He didn't make decisions about individual materiels or pieces of
9 equipment. The overall plan was approved by him and then sent on to the
10 Ministry of Defence.
11 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did the Chief of the General Staff of
12 the VJ have a collegium?
13 A. Yes. There was a collegium, yes.
14 Q. And what was the purpose of this collegium? Do you know?
15 A. I think it was an advisory body which met from time to time to
16 consider certain topical issues.
17 Q. Okay. Did the collegium have permanent members?
18 A. I think the permanent members were the assistants -- his
19 assistants or, rather, the chiefs of the sectors.
20 Q. And was the Chief of the General Staff a permanent member of the
22 A. Well, that's logical in my view. He presided over the collegium.
23 Q. Between 1993 and 1995, were you ever invited to attend the
24 collegium of the Chief of the General Staff?
25 A. Yes. The lower-level chiefs, the chiefs at the third level were
1 invited occasionally when there was a discussion on the agenda that had
2 to do with their field of activity or their competencies. In my case, it
3 would be engineering.
4 Q. And can you recall, approximately how often would you be -- were
5 you invited to attend the collegium during those years?
6 A. After all this time, I'm not sure how many times I was invited,
7 but I think there was a period - I don't know whether it was the first or
8 the last period - when a plan was changed and we -- chiefs of arms of
9 service attended once a month. Whether this was in 1994 or 1995, I'm not
11 Q. And when you attended those collegiums, was General Perisic
13 A. Yes, he or his deputy if he was absent.
14 Q. What kinds of issues were discussed when you were present at the
15 collegium meetings?
16 A. To the best of my recollection, the usual issues: Briefing by
17 his subordinates on the tasks carried out in the army; the military and
18 political situation prevailing in the area; work plans; and specific
19 problems that had arisen between two collegium meetings. That was more
20 or less what the meetings were about.
21 Q. Did General Perisic run these meetings?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you briefly describe how General Perisic ran the meetings?
24 What would the dynamic be like?
25 A. Oh, the dynamic was military. There was a plan, to the best of
1 my recollection. There was a certain order in which the individual
2 participants would take the floor. They were given a brief period of
3 time, I'm not sure exactly how long, but they had a certain time in which
4 to brief him. He would put questions for clarification, and that's how
5 it went.
6 Q. During those meetings, did General Perisic indicate that he
7 understood the issues being discussed?
8 A. Yes. He would ask for clarification occasionally. If everything
9 was clear -- well, he behaved normally in compliance with military norms
10 and regulations.
11 Q. How would you describe General Perisic as an officer?
12 A. Well, he was a soldier. When you say soldier, that implies his
13 appearance, his bearing, his manner of issuing orders. I don't know what
14 else to say.
15 Q. When you refer to General Perisic's manner of issuing orders, can
16 you be a bit more specific, please?
17 A. I don't know what you are referring to. He would look at the
18 agenda and tell people to take the floor. He would put questions if he
19 didn't understand something or give his approval or non-approval. He
20 would say, Work on this a bit more, Elaborate this further, things like
22 Q. Okay. I'm going to move on to another topic.
23 General, are you familiar with the term "war reserves" as it was
24 used in the JNA and the VJ?
25 A. War reserves are reserves of all the materiel needed by the army
1 to wage war.
2 Q. And is there only -- well, how many kinds of war reserves are
3 there or were there at that time?
4 A. There were several levels with soldiers by units and in the
5 central depots.
6 Q. And did the war reserves in the central depot, central depots,
7 did those reserves have a particular name, or did you refer -- were those
8 reserves referred to by a particular description?
9 A. I don't know how to answer that question. I don't know what you
10 mean. There was, for example, the quartermaster depot, the lethal
11 weapons depot. I didn't know the locations of all these depots.
12 Q. Above the unit level of reserves, was there another kind of war
14 A. Well, those were the overall reserves outside the units which
15 were kept in the depots of the rear bases.
16 Q. Okay. And you mentioned reserves that were kept in the central
17 depots. Can you be a little bit more specific? Who controlled these
18 central depots?
19 A. Well, I didn't deal with that, but I think this was -- this fell
20 under the rear organ, from the sector in the General Staff to the corps
21 command, and it ended with the bases.
22 Q. Did the General Staff of the army maintain war reserves?
23 A. I can't answer that. I don't know whether they were called the
24 General Staff's reserves. There was a logistics base, a central
25 logistics base, I think it was called the 68th [as interpreted], and it
1 was under the jurisdiction of the real logistics sector, but whether they
2 had their own basis, I really couldn't tell you.
3 Q. When you say it was -- first of all, you referred to a base, and
4 the English translation says "68th." Did you say 68th or 608th?
5 A. 608th.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether the witness
7 said 68th or 608th.
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. Just once more for the record, General, if you could speak up a
10 little bit. Did you say 68 or 608?
11 A. 608th.
12 Q. All right. When you say the 608th logistics base was under the
13 jurisdiction of the logistics sector, that's a sector of the General
14 Staff; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. I'd like to move to the topic of requests for assistance to the
17 Army of Yugoslavia
18 did the Army of Republika Srpska, the VRS, ever make requests to the VJ,
19 the Army of Yugoslavia for equipment and materiels?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there a procedure established for the processing of such
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you familiar with this procedure?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And how did you become familiar with this procedure?
2 A. My superior told me what the procedure was. He was the chief of
3 the sector for the land army or the ground forces.
4 Q. Do you know where your superior received information about what
5 the procedure would be?
6 A. I can say that this is what probably happened, but I can't know
7 what my superior -- what all the things he did. But anyway, that's what
8 he told me.
9 Q. I'm sorry. I think my question wasn't clear.
10 Do you know who explained this procedure or gave this procedure
11 to your superior, the assistant for land army sector?
12 A. I assume this was done at the level of the General Staff.
13 Whether it was through the cabinet or at the collegium or by the chief,
14 that I don't know.
15 Q. What was the first step in this procedure in terms of making a
16 request from the VRS or the SVK to the VJ?
17 A. I don't know how requests came to the General Staff, but I do
18 know how they reached me.
19 Q. Maybe let me start a little bit earlier. If the VRS wanted to
20 request assistance from the VJ, what part, what unit of the VRS was
21 supposed to send a request to the VJ?
22 A. From the documents I was able to see, the General Staff or the
23 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska - I've forgotten now what its
24 precise name was - sent a request to the General Staff of the Army of
1 Q. If the request from the VRS Main Staff only concerned engineering
2 materiel and equipment, what would the VJ General Staff do with the
3 request, according to the procedure?
4 A. For a time, I would receive a copy of the original request from
5 the cabinet, and there would be a handwritten note on it saying, Consider
6 this request, Supply this if possible, or the chief of the cabinet would
7 write a note on a scrap of paper, For consideration, The chief says this
8 should be considered, If possible the material should be provided.
9 Q. And do you recall who the person or persons were who would make
10 these handwritten notes?
11 A. The Chief of the General Staff in the upper right-hand corner
12 wrote by hand, Look into this, consider it, and he would initial that.
13 And the cover letter, which was actually an informal scrap of paper,
14 would provide instructions as to what the administration should do. And
15 we would then take the document into consideration and respond to it.
16 Q. Okay. Now, before we go to your response, at some point did this
17 procedure that you've just described, receiving the request from the VJ
18 General Staff, from the cabinet, did that change a little bit?
19 A. The relations between the two staffs, I think, did not change.
20 What changed was the procedure we used. I may be wrong when I say what
21 came first and what came second, but this procedure did not go directly
22 from the cabinet to me, but it went to the logistics sector, and then the
23 ground army, and then the engineers, and then the route back would be the
25 Q. So at some point, these requests were sent via the logistics
1 sector before they got to your administration; is that it?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And what then would you do after you received a request, request
4 for engineering materiel or equipment?
5 A. Well, that request, with his associates and especially the desk
6 officer in charge of that, my deputy, we considered the situation and
7 then we provided our position as to what needed to be done. Usually if
8 there was a request for one quantity, we would reduce that because that's
9 what we could provide; a level of replenishment was not satisfactory in
10 any way. Then we would send the reply back, i.e., to the sector for the
11 land army, and from there it went to the logistics sector.
12 Q. From the logistics sector, where would your reply go?
13 A. I can't say. I suppose that this is where everything ended. All
14 the suggestions and proposals ended up there, and a document would be
15 drafted there for the Chief of the General Staff's consideration and
16 final decision-making.
17 Q. Suppose the Chief of the General Staff approved one of these
18 requests; who would carry out the transfer of equipment or materiel to
19 the VRS or the SVK?
20 A. This does not fall within my purview. I never dealt with that,
21 but I suppose it would be the logistics organs, the executive organs of
22 the 608th base, as far as I can remember.
23 Q. All right. Now, let me change the scenario just a little bit,
24 General. Suppose the original request from the VRS Main Staff or the SVK
25 Main Staff asked for different kind of equipment and not just engineering
1 equipment. How would that request be processed?
2 A. In the sector for land army, that's where the desk officers from
3 all the administrations would go to. All the desk officers that had to
4 do with the particular request, they would photocopy the request, they
5 would bring them over to the respective administrations, and we would
6 follow the procedure. We would -- took the request under advisement. I
7 would draft a reply initially, and then I would send it to the sector of
8 the land army. They would compile all of our inputs, and then they would
9 send to the centre for logistics as I've already explained.
10 Q. Just a few moments ago, before we move on, you mentioned that you
11 would reduce often the quantity that was requested because you said the
12 level of replenishment was not satisfactory in any way. Why wasn't the
13 level of replenishment satisfactory during those years, 1993 to 1995?
14 A. It was not satisfactory even before, and during that period, the
15 materiel was being used and there were no resources to replenish the
16 quantities that were used.
17 Q. All right. I'd like to show you a few documents.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, may we please move into private
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
21 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. General, this procedure that you've described for us, how
9 requests were made, sent to the General Staff, requests were forwarded to
10 you, et cetera, was this procedure always followed to the letter?
11 A. I followed it. I saw documents. You showed me documents from
12 which I could see that some others did not.
13 MR. SAXON: All right. Your Honour, can we move into private
14 session now, please. My apologies again.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. SAXON: If we can -- if I can ask the Registry's assistance,
20 I'd like to show one of the documents that I mentioned to the Chamber
21 earlier that the OTP recently received from Serbia. It would be now part
22 of 65 ter 7899 with document ID 0646-6630.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to know why we are
25 in private session? Why is this document shown in private session? I
1 really don't understand the reason behind this decision. Could Mr. Saxon
2 maybe explain.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON: Because the government of Serbia asked that the
5 Prosecution use this document in private session until they had a chance
6 to make further submissions on whether this document could be public or
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it the condition of disclosing the document to
9 the Prosecution?
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am happy with the explanation.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
14 Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. If you could direct your attention to the document that is on the
17 screen in front of you, General, you'll see this is a document -- it's
18 dated the 11th of March, 1994, from the engineering administration, and
19 is that your signature on the bottom of the document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the document is titled in English: "Accordance For
22 Redistribution of Engineering Assets, Arms, and Military Equipment For
23 VRS." And this document is being sent, apparently, to Military Post 9808
24 in Belgrade
25 A. I believe that this is the military post of the 608th logistics
2 Q. And further down, it says:
3 "Based upon a request by the Main Staff of Republika Srpska, your
4 administration approves the redistribution of engineering military
5 equipment and arms."
6 What was the equipment that you were approving being provided to
7 the VRS in this document?
8 A. This is a rocket device to make -- to open passages through
9 minefields that we had in the army. At the time, they were already
10 obsolete. They were no longer used.
11 Q. Okay.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why give them to the VRS if they are obsolete?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wanted them. They were in a
14 good state of repair. They worked properly, but they were not used by
15 the troops.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The VJ troops?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VJ troops.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON:
20 Q. And we see up top, there is a number underneath the heading on
21 the upper left-hand side, confidential number 44-2. And if we can scroll
22 down a little bit in both versions, there is a handwritten note saying
23 that three pieces of the UROP have been issued to the VRS on 14th of May,
24 1995. Do you know wrote that note?
25 A. No. I did not write that, neither did my administration.
1 Q. Okay. General, when you drafted this document and you signed it,
2 were you following the procedure that you described to us a few moments
4 A. Obviously that was not the case. However, there is no preceding
5 document based on which I drafted the request the way I did. It is only
6 to be assumed, but I don't want to speculate. I don't remember.
7 Q. And when you say, Obviously that is not the case, is that because
8 this document -- well, tell us why. Why do you say obviously it was not
9 the case that you were following the procedure that you described to us
11 A. I did not violate any rules intentionally or consciously. I
12 suppose that there was something in the request that prompted me to act
13 the way I did. Since there's only one piece of equipment in question and
14 that piece of equipment was under my jurisdiction and authority, I
15 believe that this was done in order to shorten the route, shorten the
16 procedure in a way.
17 Q. Okay. What is it about this document that shortened the route of
18 the normal procedure?
19 A. Well, I didn't return the document to the Chief of the General
20 Staff or the logistics sector but directly to the base as the executive
21 organ because this document dealt with just one device, a device from my
22 jurisdiction. I believe that one would find that in the preliminary
23 document, that the preliminary document would explain the subsequent
24 procedure. However, that document does not exist, and I can't prove
1 Q. Very well. Thank you.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I would ask that this document be
3 marked for identification.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You want it marked for identification?
5 MR. SAXON: Yes, and my case manager is providing me with some
6 important information. As 65 ter 0789.06.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought it was --
8 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought this was 65 ter 7899, ID number
11 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour, and in order to work
12 with these additional documents that we've recently received, we've given
13 these new documents a sub-number, that's all.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 0789.06.
15 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now -- and the reason why you want it marked
17 for identification?
18 MR. SAXON: Well, yes, Your Honour. It was pursuant to the
19 agreement that I had with the Defence and to the leave that I was granted
20 earlier today by Your Honours because it is not formally part of our
21 65 ter list.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I had completely forgotten.
23 Okay. This document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
24 an exhibit number and marked for identification under seal.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P621 marked
1 for identification under seal.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. SAXON: One moment, please, Your Honour.
4 If we could turn, now, please, if we could call up on our screen
5 also part of 65 ter 7899 but with the document ID 0646-6629. And this
6 would be 789.05.
7 Q. General, this is another document. Do you see your signature at
8 the bottom?
9 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.
10 Q. This document is dated the 16th of May, 1995, and up at the top
11 left-hand corner it has confidential number 260-1. These confidential
12 numbers, were they -- were they used to keep a record of the documents
13 issued by your administration to identify them?
14 A. That's the way documents were graded. One of the grades was
15 confidential, strictly confidential, state secret, so this is a
16 qualification, the way documents were graded or qualified.
17 Q. And the number here, for example, 260-1?
18 A. This is an administrative number for the registration purposes
19 from a book into which the documents were filed and recorded.
20 Q. All right. Again, this document is addressed to
21 Military Post 9808 in Belgrade
22 that the engineering administration is approving the transfer of
23 engineering equipment, and below that we see three pieces of UROP. So is
24 this the same equipment that was discussed in the previous document?
25 Same kind of equipment, I should say.
1 A. The same kind and the same procedure. However, three more pieces
2 were requested as far as I can see, and in the bottom part of the
3 document, you can see the explanation showing that the total number
4 requested was six, and we're talking about the same device.
5 Q. And we also see here in that last paragraph a reference to
6 confidential number 44-2, dated 11 of March, 1994. So is this document
7 referring back to the document that we looked at previously?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, again, I would ask that this document be
10 marked for identification under seal, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number, marked for identification, and kept
13 under seal.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P622 marked
15 for identification under seal.
16 MR. SAXON: One moment, please, Your Honour. If we could please
17 see on our screens now 65 ter 7899.
18 Q. General, this is a document, it's numbered 260-2 dated the 15th
19 of May, 1995, and the subject refers to consent on engineers' weapons and
20 military equipment handover for the VRS. Again, we see it's directed to
21 Military Post 9808 in Belgrade
22 it says:
23 "Pursuant to the Army of Republika Srpska Main Staff demand ..."
24 there's number and a date, "... and the Yugoslav Army chief of General
25 Staff consent, engineers administration as a tactical holder has approved
1 the handover of the following engineers' weapons and military equipment
2 without allowance."
3 A. Yes, this is my document.
4 Q. And we see a listing of mines and anti-personnel devices below,
5 plastic explosive. And then we see reference to the six UROP devices
6 that had been approved previously. My question is --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Here, you are sending this document pursuant to the request of
9 the VRS and pursuant to the consent of the Chief of the General Staff of
10 the Yugoslav Army. Is this document then consistent with the procedure
11 that you've described to us previously about how these kinds of requests
12 should be handled?
13 A. Not in principle. However, it says here in agreement with the
14 NGS. I repeat, you don't have the original request. Again, we can't see
15 what the request said and what was added by hand either by the chief or
16 the chief of the logistics sector. I can't remember what the original
18 Q. Well, would you have -- never mind. I'll step back from that.
19 Why do you say this document in principle is not consistent with
20 the procedure that you had described earlier?
21 A. Because I would not have been allowed to reply directly to the
22 608th base. I would have had to follow the route that I explained,
23 unless it had been explicitly requested for me to shorten that route.
24 However, I'm not in a position to prove what happened one way or another
25 because the original request is missing. We don't have that document.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under similar conditions?
4 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please. Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number marked for identification and kept
7 under seal.
8 MR. SAXON: Actually, Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be
9 tendered into evidence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, that's why I asked under the same conditions.
11 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. Under seal, yes, but --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal but not marked for identification.
13 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P623 under
10 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Can we please bring up
11 65 ter 8979 on the screen, please.
12 Q. General, you'll see this is a document from the Main Staff of the
13 Army of Republika Srpska dated 19 June 1995. And it says "very urgent."
14 "To the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia ..." and then "...
15 personally to the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ." Do you see
16 that? Are you following me?
17 A. Yes, I can see it.
18 Q. And then below that we see a subtitle, if you will, called:
19 "Help and ammunition, a request." And the next paragraph describes
20 what's referred to as a Muslim offensive and the resistance put up by the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Are you following me?
22 A. Well, I haven't had a chance to read it yet, and I haven't read
23 it. All right.
24 Q. To your knowledge, what army did the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
25 belong to?
1 A. I am not familiar with the structure of the Army of Republika
3 Q. All right. And if we continue down to the request, and now we
4 are on the second page of the English version, there's a paragraph
5 beginning with "However ..." and it says:
6 "However, due to the fact that the Sarajevo-Trnovo road
7 communication is not safe, we are not able to bring in the supplies and
8 to reinforce the units of the SRK
9 you following me?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then below that, it says:
12 "For the above-mentioned reasons, we need your urgent help with
13 the following quantities of ammunition as follows ..." and then we see
14 below that a list of different kinds of ammunition. Are you seeing that
15 with me?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. All right. And then we see at the bottom, towards the bottom --
18 actually, if we can go to the next page in the B/C/S version, please, and
19 we see that it's from Kommandant Ratko Mladic personally?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. My question for you right now is, just up to this point, by
22 sending his request to the VJ General Staff, was General Mladic following
23 the established procedure that you described to us earlier today?
24 A. Well, I suppose so, but I don't know what the procedure agreed
25 was because this is something that is not within my purview.
1 Q. Do you remember the procedure that you described to us in the
2 last session?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. When you told -- do you recall telling us that a request was
5 supposed to come from the VRS Main Staff to the VJ General Staff? Do you
6 recall that?
7 A. Yes, yes, I recall that. That's what I was informed -- that's
8 how I was informed, and that's what I said.
9 Q. Okay. So up to this point, General Mladic is following the
10 procedure that you described; is that fair?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SAXON: If we can turn back to the first page in both
13 versions, please. And, yes, could we also zoom in a bit on the upper
14 part of the B/C/S version, as well, make that a bit bigger.
15 Q. General, up in the top right-hand corner, there's --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is a handwritten note, and there's some initials. Do you
18 recognise -- do you know -- do you recognise those initials?
19 A. Well, it looks like the initials of General Perisic.
20 Q. Okay. And that note says:
21 "Give it to Ratko so as to have this resolved."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SAXON: If we could now turn to the next page --
25 Q. Actually, before we do that, did you receive similar handwritten
1 notes from General Perisic on requests that were forwarded to you?
2 A. Yes. I've already mentioned that to that effect, see if anything
3 can be given, check, and so on.
4 MR. SAXON: I just need to point out, Your Honours, that one of
5 the General's microphone is apparently turned off, and it's the
6 microphone that he is speaking directly into, so perhaps we should
7 resolve that. Thank you so much, Mr. Usher.
8 If we go to the next page in both documents, please, and can we
9 zoom in on the bottom of each page, please. Not the top but the lower
10 half of each page.
11 Q. And we see -- we see what appears to be a telegram. Would you
12 agree with that, General?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it's from the cabinet of the Chief of the General Staff of
15 the Army of Yugoslavia, to the logistics sector Lieutenant-Colonel
16 Milovanovic. Did you know -- lieutenant-colonel general, I should say,
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know this gentleman, Milovanovic?
20 A. Yes, he is deceased.
21 Q. And then we see --
22 MR. SAXON: And if we can go to the next page in the English
23 version, please. And if we can make that a little bit bigger. And if we
24 could make in the B/C/S version, the text we see at the bottom a bit
25 bigger, as well, please. If we could make the text at the bottom bigger,
1 please. All right.
2 Q. We see that the text here is in Cyrillic -- well, I will ask you.
3 Is that Cyrillic script that we see here in this telegram?
4 A. The telegram is in the Latin script, but the bottom part, the
5 text at the bottom is in Cyrillic.
6 Q. Okay. And here it says that the --
7 "We forward you the telegram from the General Staff of the VRS
8 and inform that you the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of
11 Are you following?
12 A. Yes, I can see that part.
13 Q. Okay. And did you receive -- actually, then we see "for the
14 chief," and then a signature over a colonel, Sinisa Borovic. What does
15 that phrase mean, "for the chief"?
16 A. I assume that at this time he had not been appointed the chief
17 yet; he was just acting chief of the General Staff.
18 Q. I'm sorry. This document is from June 1995.
19 A. Yes. The word "for" means standing in for.
20 Q. I see. And who would the chief be in this context?
21 A. Well, I don't know whether he was just standing in for someone at
22 the time because if an officer is not appointed by an order or a decree,
23 then this is the standard form used.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to this document being
4 introduced through this witness because from the questions of the
5 Prosecutor, the witness only confirmed the content of the document that
6 was read out to him, and the witness himself said that he didn't know
7 anything about the substance of the document itself, such as, for
8 instance, the questions about the signature, and especially so because
9 this is in no way related to his administration. It's a totally
10 different administration. So from where I'm standing, I don't see that
11 there has been a link established between him and this document, and the
12 fact alone that he recognizes the signature or, rather, the initials of
13 General Perisic's is not sufficient ground for basing or for the link
14 between this witness and the document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Prosecution's submission, the fact that
17 the witness recognizes the initials of General Perisic actually creates a
18 very strong relationship between the witness and this document. Second
19 of all, the witness was able to tell us that at least the first part of
20 this document up to the point where we see the signature area for General
21 Mladic was consistent with the procedure that he described to us during
22 the last session; that is, requests for materiel and assistance from the
23 VRS would come from the VRS Main Staff to the General Staff of the
24 Yugoslav Army, and that is what the witness was able to confirm.
25 The witness has described carefully what the procedure was for
1 these requests and how they are acted upon. And he was able to explain
2 that part of this document was consistent with that request, and he was
3 able to recognise the initials of General Perisic. And he was able to
4 tell us that he received similar handwritten notes on a number of
5 occasions similar to what is up at the top right-hand corner. Therefore,
6 Your Honour, the Prosecution would submit there is a relationship
7 established between this witness and this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any reply?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Briefly. This is the evidence of
10 this witness on procedure, but this witness has nothing to say about this
11 document. He did describe the procedure, and the procedure was followed,
12 and this we can see through the questions of Mr. Saxon, but the witness
13 did not show that he knows anything about this document itself except
14 that he confirmed in reply to Mr. Saxon's questions what the document was
15 about, but this is not sufficient ground to establish a relationship
16 between the witness and the document.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: By majority, the objection is overruled, Moloto
20 MR. SAXON: Can this document then be given an exhibit number,
21 please, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so given a number. May it please be given a
24 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P624 under
3 MR. SAXON: Can we please bring up now on the screen 65 ter 8934,
4 and I'm grateful to Ms. Taseva for all her patience with me today.
5 Your Honours -- actually, Your Honours, this 65 ter exhibit is
6 actually three documents, and I'd like to discuss all three of them with
7 the witness, and if we could look first at the second document in this
8 sequence, please.
9 Q. General, this document is from the Main Staff of the Army of
10 Republika Srpska. It's dated the 7th of October, 1993. It says:
11 "Urgent request for issuance of communications equipment
12 submitted to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia ..." And in the
13 English -- yeah, "... personally to the chief." And you'll see that it
14 is a request for some communications equipment. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, I can see that.
16 Q. And again, it is over --
17 A. Although it's pretty illegible.
18 Q. Yes. And again, it's over the signature line of
19 Lieutenant-Colonel General Ratko Mladic.
20 MR. SAXON: And if we can zoom in, please, on the upper
21 right-hand corner of the B/C/S version, please, where there's some
22 handwriting. If you could make that a bit bigger.
23 Q. And we see a note.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The handwritten note says -- first says:
1 "Andjelkovic, if you can give it, do so."
2 First of all, do you know who the gentleman Andjelkovic was?
3 A. Yes. He was the then-chief of the communications administration
4 at the General Staff.
5 Q. So we see the name "Andjelkovic" underlined and then the phrase
6 "... if you can give it, do so ..." underlined. Do you see that?
7 A. I can make the out the name Andjelkovic, but I cannot read the
8 rest. It's rather blurred.
9 Q. Okay. Would you take my word for it if it says "... if you can
10 give it, do so"?
11 A. I don't know if I have the right to --
12 MR. SAXON: I'll retract that question, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
15 I do believe.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. Can you recognise any of the handwriting in those first two lines
19 or the initials there?
20 A. No. I can read a portion of the text, but not the entire text,
21 nor can I make out the initials.
22 Q. Okay. In October of 1993, which -- actually, I'm going to finish
23 reviewing these notes before I go to that question.
24 Hopefully you can read the following notes. Under Lieutenant
25 Andjelkovic, it says:
1 "This was at the chief of the Main Staff" -- excuse me. "This
2 was at the Chief of the General Staff. Write down what his position is
3 on it." And then we see a phrase: "My opinion is: Some of our corps
4 commands" --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I really don't want to interfere with
6 your leading, but the witness said to you he can read part of that
7 handwritten note and not all of it. Now, you are reading it to him.
8 Who's in the witness box?
9 MR. SAXON: I take your point, Your Honour.
10 Q. General, are you able to read any of the handwritten note below
11 the top portion?
12 A. Yes. It says:
13 "Colonel Andjelkovic ..." and it says: "First, this was at the
14 NGAs. You say this was his position too. My view, we have corps
15 commands that have not been fully equipped with some communications
16 equipment ..." and then further on, there's something that I cannot
17 recognise. And then it says under 3:
18 "If you have some of what has been requested ..." and then I
19 cannot read the rest. And then at the end, it says:
20 "To General Milovanovic."
21 Q. Okay. Can you -- what was General Milovanovic's position in
22 October 1993?
23 A. I'm not sure. For awhile, he was the chief of the logistics
24 sector, and I'm not sure whether he was already in this position at this
25 time. I can't recall.
1 MR. SAXON: Okay. Can we scroll down, please, further down in
2 the B/C/S version.
3 Q. There's some more handwriting. Are you able to read that?
4 A. Colonel Stankovic, Stankovic, please -- I cannot make out the
6 MR. SAXON: Can we zoom in on the rest of that, please, on the
7 rest of that handwritten text.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go down to the equivalent part in the
9 English version.
10 MR. SAXON: It would be the next page, I believe, Your Honours.
11 Q. Are you able to read that handwriting now, General? Is it any
13 A. Not the entire text. I can make out a word here and there. I
14 think it says:
15 "I think that" -- "that we can issue ..." or "it can be issued
16 ..." And then I can't read a part. Then it says "cable." And then it
17 says "under number 6." I can't make out the rest. I'm sorry.
18 Q. Very well. This request from the Main Staff of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, was the
20 forwarding of this request in the Main Staff of the VRS to the General
21 Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia consistent with the procedure that you
22 described to us earlier today about how these requests began?
23 A. Well, it seems to be, yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. SAXON: If we could now, please, look at
1 document ID 0630-5832, which is another document in this 65 ter number.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you intend to tender that separately from the
3 other two?
4 MR. SAXON: If I tender this, Your Honour, I believe I will
5 tender them altogether, would be --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But now you are giving us two reference numbers.
7 When we give it an exhibit number, what do we relay that exhibit number
8 to? Do we relay it to 8934, or do we relate it to 0630583?
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I will take Your Honour's point. At
10 this point, I will seek to tender the last document that we looked at, if
11 we can.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one on the screen now or the previous one?
13 MR. SAXON: If I could have the Court's indulgence for a moment,
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do have it.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, if I -- I think it would be cleaner if
18 we could -- if we could go back to that last document, which was the
19 request, and I will ask that it be tendered into evidence, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go back to that last document that was the
22 MR. SAXON: We're still -- we need to go back to the last
23 document, which was 65 ter 0630 -- excuse me. Yeah, there we are.
24 Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document, please.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will not object, but I have another
2 problem, Your Honours. My case manager has told me that this document
3 has two different English translations in e-court, so to avoid confusion,
4 could only this translation that we see on the screen now be admitted
5 into evidence. I don't know why it appears in our records that there are
6 two translations of one and the same document.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, is your team able to help us identify
8 the other copy so that we get rid of it from the e-court? Otherwise, we
9 will never know six months down the line which was the English version
10 that was admitted.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We only ask that the English
12 translation of the document which has the ERN number 0630-5833-ET-1 not
13 be entered -- not be admitted into evidence. And the one on the screen
14 has the number - just let me put my glasses on - it has the number --
15 well, it ends with 5833, and that may then be admitted into evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we have that zoomed in, please, that English
17 version so that we can see that ERN number. Fine.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here it is. So I agree that
19 ET-0630-5833 be entered into evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Now, that document with that
21 ERN number ET-0630-5833-0630-5833 is admitted into evidence together with
22 its B/C/S version. May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P625.
24 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Under seal.
5 MR. SAXON: If we could now turn, please, to the document with
6 document ID 0630-5832. That was still part of 65 ter 8934. Thank you
7 very much.
8 Q. General, you will see that this is a document sent to the General
9 Staff of the -- excuse me, sent from the communications administration,
10 part of the operation affairs sector at the General Staff of the Army of
12 issuance of requested communications equipment submitted." Do you see
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. And it's addressed to the cabinet of the Chief of the General
16 Staff of the VJ, and it says that this document is in relation to the
17 request made by the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, highly
18 confidential number 12/9-897 dated the 7th of October, 1993, and it
19 describes a position being taken. And in subparagraph 1, it describes
20 how the issue of implementing secure communications was discussed at a
21 meeting, also attended by a representative of the General Staff of the
22 Army of Republika Srpska, but the first request was found unacceptable.
23 Paragraph 2, the communications administration does not have the spare
24 pieces of equipment. Paragraph 3, it asks for more information,
25 et cetera. And paragraph 4 says we should discuss this issue at a later
2 Do you see a relationship between this document and the previous
3 document that we looked at?
4 A. I'm not familiar with this document, and I'm not competent to
5 discuss its contents. I think that this is a response by the chief of
6 the communications administration to the previous document.
7 Q. Did you ever receive requests for materiel originating from the
8 VRS - when I say you, I mean the engineering administration - through the
9 procedure, of course, where you did not have the requested equipment or
10 materiel? Did you ever have those situations?
11 A. I have already said that we modified the quantities of certain
12 equipment or materiel. I don't remember recalling any requests for
13 equipment or materiel which we did not have at all.
14 Q. So in those situations -- when you said "... we modified the
15 quantities of certain equipment or materiel ..." what do you mean by
16 that? Was that in a document? You say you modified the quantities of
17 certain equipment or materiel.
18 A. We reduced the quantities, as I've already explained, because our
19 own units were insufficiently replenished and supplied.
20 Q. And when you say you reduced the quantities, would you put that
21 in your response to a request?
22 A. Yes, yes. In our response, we reduce the quantities that had
23 been asked for.
24 Q. Does this recommendation from Andjelkovic accord with the
25 procedure that you described to us earlier today for responding to
1 requests for assistance from the VRS?
2 A. I cannot comment because in the previous document I didn't
3 understand who had sent the document to whom since the signatures are
5 MR. SAXON: All right. Can we please go -- I can't recall the
6 last exhibit that was admitted, but can we please go back to that
7 document, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: P625.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. General, you'll see that this last document that we looked at,
11 this request now with Exhibit number P625, you see in the upper left-hand
12 corner that it comes from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes. That is clear to me. This first part that the document --
15 the first part of the route followed by the document, that is.
16 Q. And it's directed to the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, and that's clear too.
19 MR. SAXON: Now, can we go back to the last document that we were
20 looking at, please, the response from Andjelkovic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't you want to go through the signatures? The
22 witness said he doesn't know who signed it and ...
23 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour. We'll stay on this document.
24 If we could -- if we scroll down in the English version, please. Next
25 page, please, in the English version.
1 Q. And we see although there's no signature on the left side, it
2 says: Commander, Lieutenant-Colonel General Ratko Mladic. Do you see
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. So in this document, are you able to see the origin
6 of the document and then who it's sent to?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 MR. SAXON: All right. Can we go to the next document that we've
9 been looking at, please.
10 Q. And we see on this next --
11 MR. SAXON: Actually, I'm very sorry to bother our Registry
12 officer. If we could go back for a moment to P625, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't this it?
14 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. This document has not been admitted
15 yet. That is it on the right-hand side. If we could go to the English
16 version of 625.
17 Q. And do you see in the upper left-hand corner of the document in
18 B/C/S, can you read the number of the document, General?
19 MR. SAXON: Can we zoom in on that number, please, in the upper
20 left-hand corner.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12/9-897. That's what I can read.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Now can we go to the next document that
23 we had started to look at.
24 Q. And can you see, General, that in the first sentence of that
25 document, there's a reference to document 12/9-897? Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And we see that this was a response from Andjelkovic to the
3 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So does this response from Andjelkovic accord with the procedures
6 that you described to us earlier today as to what the administration
7 should do after it is forwarded a request?
8 A. I see that Colonel Andjelkovic sent a response to the cabinet of
9 the Chief of the General Staff, but in the previous document I didn't see
10 that the Chief of the General Staff sent a copy of the request to
11 Andjelkovic or someone in between. And that's the illegible initials
12 underneath the comment I'm referring to.
13 Q. When you received a request, you forwarded a response to the
14 General Staff, did you not?
15 A. I first sent the response to the cabinet, if that's who I had
16 received it from, or through the logistics sector if that was the way it
17 had come.
18 Q. Do you see anything in this document in this response that is
19 inconsistent with the procedure that you described?
20 A. No, because I don't know who is in between Colonel Andjelkovic
21 and the cabinet of the chief of the General Staff. All I understand is
22 that Colonel Andjelkovic did not receive the document from the Chief of
23 the General Staff but from a third person. Whether it's a sector, I
24 cannot decipher here.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point I would seek to tender
1 this document, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P626.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please call up 0630-5834, document ID.
10 Q. General, you will see this is a document from the cabinet of the
11 Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia. This is numbered
12 81/107. It's dated the 20th of October, 1993, and it's addressed to the
13 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And it's titled: "A Response to a Request For Issuance of
16 Communications Equipment." And then in the line below that, it refers to
17 confidential number 12/9-897, the first document that we looked at. Do
18 you see that?
19 A. Yes, yes, I do.
20 Q. And it's from the chief of the cabinet, Colonel Zivanovic. And
21 we see the language in paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4 contains information
22 regarding the original request. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And again, it is explaining that the VJ is unable to grant the
25 request completely. Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would such a document, such a response from the VJ General Staff
3 to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, would this also be
4 part of the procedure that you described to us earlier?
5 A. I cannot comment on the competencies of the head of the cabinet
6 -- of the chief of the cabinet of the chief of the Main Staff. I don't
7 know what his powers were, and I don't know why he signed this.
8 Q. Do you know whether the General Staff of the -- no, I will strike
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would submit this
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object in principle. Four
14 questions were put to the witness about these documents, actually five,
15 and Mr. Saxon was reading parts of these documents, and when he finally
16 asked the witness in line 10 to answer whether he was familiar with the
17 procedure, the witness answered no, so I don't think we have received any
18 feedback on this document from this witness, and this is the main reason
19 for my objection.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the relationship between this witness
22 and this particular document is that this document refers back to the
23 original request, which the witness was able to comment on as being part
24 of the procedures in place at that time. So in the Prosecution's
25 submission, there is a relationship between this witness and this
1 particular document.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any reply?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness did talk about the
4 procedure. However, when it comes to the procedure between the cabinet
5 of the Chief of the General Staff and the Army Republika Srpska and the
6 procedure that existed between the two is something that the witness
7 didn't know, and this is the only thing that Mr. Saxon wanted to hear
8 from him. Your Honours, I don't see this document colliding with my
9 Defence case, and I believe that there are thousands of ways to introduce
10 this document through other witnesses, but I'm objecting, as I said, in
11 principle because the witness provided answers that really don't have
12 anything to do with the document, and I don't want this practice to be
13 introduced as the way the documents are tendered for admission.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection upheld.
16 MR. SAXON: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Can we please turn to 65 ter 8894.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you abandoning this completely, then?
19 MR. SAXON: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are?
21 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. Well, can it be marked for
22 identification? I apologise, Your Honour. I'm going too quickly.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response to that one, Mr. Lukic?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Again, in principle I'll say that I
25 object. I'm against that as well. Again, for the reasons of principle.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if it's marked for identification and nobody
2 comes to identify it, then it doesn't come in. Isn't that how marking
3 for identification --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. You already pointed that
5 to me yesterday, and I'm actually willing to accept your suggestion, Your
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. We'll admit it and mark it
8 for identification, please. Is it under seal?
9 MR. SAXON: Under seal.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P627 marked
12 for identification under seal.
13 MR. SAXON: Can I have the Registry's assistance in calling up
14 65 ter 8894, please.
15 Q. General, do you see the document in front of you?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. It's addressed to the -- it's from the General Staff of the Army
18 of Yugoslavia
19 the upper left-hand corner.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you see -- there's a signature at the bottom of the page.
22 Do you recognise that signature?
23 A. Could you please repeat. Where is the signature?
24 MR. SAXON:
25 Q. Can we focus on the signature that's on the bottom of the page.
1 Can we zoom in on that signature, please.
2 A. In the right-hand corner, in the lower corner?
3 Q. Yes. Do you recognise that signature?
4 A. Yes, yes. It's the chief of General Staff, General Perisic's
5 signature. That's what I'm reading.
6 MR. SAXON: All right. And if we can scroll back up, please.
7 General Perisic refers to an order of the President, and maybe to assist
8 General Mihajlovic, if we could zoom in a bit on the B/C/S text to help
9 him a little bit. Thank you.
10 Q. It says:
11 "Pursuant to an order of the President" --
12 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. May I continue?
13 Q. "Pursuant to an order of the President dated the 18th of
14 February, 1994, I issued an instruction for replenishment of the 30th and
15 40th Personnel Centres with materiel supplies."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. To your knowledge, what were the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres?
19 A. Well, as far as I can remember, and I don't have complete
20 information, mind you, I believe that those were representatives of the
21 Army Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina, and they
22 were dealing in personnel issues, hence the title of the two centres.
23 Q. All right. And below that, it says:
24 "Despite constant warnings, certain commanding officers of the VJ
25 disobeyed the order and issued equipment for the needs of the 30th and
1 40th Personnel Centre without authorisation."
2 And then it gives a series of directives below that, warnings
3 about to strictly implement the measures and procedures from his
4 instruction, et cetera. Do you see that?
5 A. I do.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: While Mr. Saxon is taking a break, can I just ask
7 a question for clarification. What are special units corps? To whom was
8 this addressed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In handwriting, it says command of
10 KSJ. This was the special units corps, so this means that this document
11 was sent to all units, and this is a copy of the document that was sent
12 to this particular unit.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we can assist the witness. If
15 we scroll down, the witness will see a stamp of the recipient, and the
16 witness can't see that in B/C/S version. It's at the bottom of the
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It says the corps command of
19 special units where this document was filed on the 17th of August, 1994
20 Command of the corps of special units.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what are special units?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a unit as far as I can
23 remember on the strength of that corps. There was a guards brigade, an
24 armoured brigade, a parachute brigade, and I don't know whether there
25 were any others.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this document was not addressed to the sectors
2 like yours, for instance, or the engineering one or the communications
3 sector; it was addressed to the combatting units. Is that what you are
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've not seen any of these
6 documents before. I'm not familiar with them. However, as a soldier I
7 can assume that the document was sent to all the organs of the General
8 Staff including all the sectors and all the units that were directly
9 related to the General Staff, and the corps of special units was directly
10 related to the General Staff as far as I can remember.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I don't understand the question, but I
12 don't think I can take the matter any further. You can carry on,
13 Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. We spoke briefly about the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres.
16 Where were these personnel centres located?
17 A. As far as I can remember, they were located in Belgrade in one of
18 the General Staff's buildings, on the premises of the personnel
19 administration, I believe. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly where
20 their office was because I never went there.
21 Q. Can you recall who was the officer in charge of the 30th
22 Personnel Centre during the war between 1993 and 1995?
23 A. I didn't know that. I did not know him. I did, however, mention
24 a person, but I -- I'm sure I was mistaken when I did that. I never had
25 any personal contacts with them. We did not have any business
1 cooperation as it were.
2 Q. Were any of your officers from the engineering administration
3 assigned to the 30th or 40th Personnel Centre?
4 A. Nobody from the engineers administration worked in any of these
6 Q. Do you know if someone from the engineering administration served
7 in the Army of Republika Srpska with the assistance of the 30th Personnel
9 A. I don't know how that person left, but there was a colonel, a
10 volunteer. He went there and spent most of the relevant period there.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point I would seek to tender
12 this document into evidence, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My objection is the same, Your
15 Honours. The witness has just spoken about the 30th and the 40th
16 Personnel Centres and not about this document. I don't want to interfere
17 with Mr. Saxon's questions, but I think that he should have asked the
18 witness whether he ever heard of this order which is self-explanatory.
19 The witness never said anything about the contents of this document. In
20 order to establish a link between the witness and the document, we should
21 have heard an answer related to the order and not answers related to the
22 30th and the 40th Personnel Centres as we did.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this document discusses the 30th and
25 40th Personnel Centres, and the witness was able to tell us, explain to
1 us what these centres were and where they were located. So the witness
2 has been able to, in this sense, speak to the contents of the document
3 and, therefore, Your Honour, there is a relationship between this witness
4 and this document. He also identified the signature of General Perisic
5 on this document.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, any reply?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness does know Mr. Perisic.
8 There's no dispute there. In my opinion, the essence of the document is
9 whether members of the Army of Yugoslavia were in breach of rules when
10 they delivered materiel. The witness here as a member of the engineering
11 administration, to talk about the assistance to the Army Republika
12 Srpska, so the contents of the document have nothing to do with the
13 witness. There are references to the 30th and the 40th Personnel Centre,
14 and Mr. Saxon did ask the witness about the 30th and the 40th Personnel
15 Centre. He did not ask him whether he knew anything about this order.
16 This is an order of the Chief of the General Staff sent to somebody. The
17 witness was never asked whether it was ever sent to him. The witness
18 doesn't know anything about this document, Your Honours. If Mr. Saxon
19 wants to insist on this document, I'm going to ask questions in my
20 cross-examination if the Trial Chamber allows me to do so. I believe
21 that Mr. Saxon has not established a link. I don't have anything for
22 this document to be marked for identification. I'm going to draw
23 inference -- I'm going to ask the witness about this document in my
24 cross-examination if you want me to do so, but I believe that based on a
25 term that is mentioned in a document, you cannot ask a witness questions
1 about that and not about the essence of the document, and the essence of
2 the document is an order about materiel and equipment, and my learned
3 friend never asked the witness anything about that. He, rather, asked
4 him about some references in the document about the 30th and 40th
5 Personnel Centres.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is upheld. Anything you want to do
8 with this document, Mr. Saxon?
9 MR. HARMON: Can it be marked for identification, please, Your
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you say about marking for identification?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree that it should be MFI'd.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I guess, Madam Registrar, it
14 will be P628 marked for identification under seal.
15 MR. SAXON: Under seal, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of
8 March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.