1 Monday, 9 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, can you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Could we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,
14 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
15 Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata and Carmela Javier appearing for the
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much and for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to everyone in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented by
20 Tina Drolec, Milos Androvic, our legal assistant Colleen Rohan is with us
21 for the first time. Daniela Tasic and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith as well as
22 Novak Lukic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, before I call the witness, we are
1 going to be utilizing a large number of documents in the course of
2 Mr. Randall's evidence. What I would propose to do, Your Honour, is, and
3 what I have done, is I have prepared a master list of Mr. Randall's
4 exhibits which I would, at this point, request be distributed to
5 Your Honours, and to counsel, and then I will describe what is in this
6 list because it will facilitate the presentation of the evidence and
7 facilitate Your Honours identify and counsel identifying what is
8 protected and what is not protected.
9 So if we could have the Registrar distribute this master list as
10 well as ... once this is distributed, Your Honour, I will explain what
11 you have received.
12 Your Honours and counsel have received two documents. Let me
13 refer first to the thicker of the two documents. This is a document,
14 Your Honour, that is a master list of Mr. Randall's exhibits. It -- let
15 me orient you through this. On the left-hand side is the 65 ter number,
16 followed by a short description. The English and ERN, English and B/C/S
17 ERN, and then there's a column with the source of the document. And in
18 the far right-hand column there is a column identifying the protective
20 Some documents, Your Honour, you will see are protected in their
21 entirety, and other documents, Your Honour, let me turn to page 113 of
22 the master list, and if we turn to the item at the top, Your Honours will
23 see that this document is on the right-hand side protected, in part. So
24 only portions of the document are protected. For ease of reference, for
25 everybody in the courtroom, this document has shaded items, and the items
1 that are shaded are protected, either in whole or in part. So it will
2 make it easier for all the parties to identify what documents are or are
3 not protected.
4 The second item that has been distributed relates to the source
5 of the document, and in the -- these various source references in the
6 master list, There's a collection reference. The collection reference,
7 for example, for the 1st Krajina Corps when you see that in the source,
8 the provenance is described in the right-hand side of this document. It
9 identifies, for example, the 1st Krajina Corps documents were seized
10 pursuant to a search warrant issued by the Tribunal.
11 So both these documents, hopefully will be of assistance to the
12 Court and to the witness.
13 Now, I do request, Your Honour, that this master list be made
14 available to Mr. Randall during his testimony because when I asked him
15 about the provenance of a document he will need to refer to this list in
16 order to recall specifically what the provenance of the document is.
17 Likewise, I would also ask that this exhibit collection schedule, the
18 two-page item, likewise be made available to Mr. Randall.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so, sir.
20 MR. HARMON: Now in attempting to manage this many documents,
21 what I intend to do, and with leave of the Court, I intend to exhibit
22 some of the documents; in other words I intend to call up on the screen
23 some of the exhibits. There are, however, many exhibits that are similar
24 in type or in theme. So if, for example, we take SDC minutes, what I
25 propose to do is to exhibit one such set of minutes from a session, and
1 then I have prepared schedules with the remaining similar documents,
2 identified both by session, and source. And what I would propose to do
3 is -- and prior to seeking the admission of the items on the schedule, I
4 would distribute to the Chamber and to the parties a schedule with the
5 items for which I'm seeking admission. The schedules are essentially
6 similar to what is on the master list but filtered to reflect only the
7 items that are relevant to the schedule. So dealing SDC minutes, for
8 example, you would have a filtered of the minutes which would identify
9 65 ter numbers down the side. The list is helpful, I think, to permit
10 the Trial Chamber quickly to see what items the Prosecution is seeking
11 admission of, to quickly identify the sources of those items, and for the
12 Registrar to quickly be able to make references to what needs to be
13 marked as an exhibit and what doesn't -- what is protected and what is
14 partially protected.
15 What I would do, Your Honour, is distribute the schedules prior
16 to asking the witness questions about those particular items. The use of
17 the schedules, I think, Your Honour, will permit me to get through large
18 numbers of documents of similar origin or similar types, or in the case
19 of themes, similar thematic content.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you discussed this procedure with your
21 colleagues on the opposite side?
22 MR. HARMON: We have discussed it, Your Honour, and in part I
23 have distributed, not completely, but a large number of the items for
24 which I have identified will be on schedule. So I haven't completed that
25 process because I haven't completed making the schedules themselves.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. What I mean is, just this procedure
2 that you propose to follow, which is somewhat a departure from normal
3 procedure, you know, it is very well for the Bench to say, yes, we agree.
4 But I don't know whether you are going to pick up objections from the
5 opposite side.
6 MR. HARMON: Well, I defer to my colleagues. We have discussed
7 it, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And reached some agreement?
9 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm not sure we have had sufficient time to
10 come to that point. But, in part, I believe that -- well, I will let the
11 Defence speak for the Defence, Your Honour.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, there has been some discussion. Are you --
13 I'm picking up an echo, just a minute. See if you turn it down, see if
14 that will help. Well, that's better.
15 We have had some discussion about the utilisation of schedules as
16 a methodology for the introduction of documents. At this juncture since
17 we haven't had an opportunity to have a truly meaningful discussion with
18 Mr. Harmon concerning this matter, I think it would be fair to say that
19 with regard to certain specific subjects or types of documents - for
20 example, the SDC minutes - we are in agreement as regards to those
22 With regards to other documents, we may be running into a
23 problem, in terms of using this particular kind of methodology. However,
24 I think it would be fair to say that with regard to at least a number of
25 those exhibits that the Prosecution wishes to introduce through the
1 schedule methodology, that's what I'll call it for the moment, we are in
2 accord and it will be no difficulty. And I think we will be able to
3 tighten that up as things goes on.
4 This is going to take, I believe, a considerable period of time
5 because there are -- it would be fair to say there are thousands of
6 documents that are going to be coming through Mr. Randall.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: So we have been working on a way of expediting
9 and still ensuring Mr. Perisic's rights.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Mr. Harmon.
12 MR. HARMON: My proposal, Your Honour, would be then that I would
13 seek -- when utilizing a schedule I would distribute the schedule to the
14 Trial Chamber, to counsel and to the witness, and then I would ask him
15 questions, brief questions about the documents that are on the schedule,
16 and then I would seek admission of those documents.
17 Finally, Your Honour, in respect of Mr. Randall's evidence, I
18 would ask permission of the Court to allow Mr. Randall to have hard
19 copies of the documents in front of him. He finds it easier to use than
20 a screen, and although he won't have all of the documents, he will have
21 to refer to some in hard copy version.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: No problem as long as you pass them through your
23 colleagues on the opposite side.
24 MR. HARMON: All right. Well, my colleagues have seen every one
25 of these documents Your Honour, so ...
1 With that, Your Honour, then I'm prepared to call Mr. Randall.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might just before, by virtue of the type of
3 witness Mr. Randall is, Mr. Lukic and I have attempted as best we can to
4 split up the subject matters with regard to the evidence that is going to
5 come in through him, and we would request that both of us be allowed to
6 attend to this matter. We are mindful of the fact that we should not be
7 running over each other's areas, nor do we wish to tag team Mr. Harmon in
8 any fashion whatsoever in this regard. But we ask that we both be in a
9 position to actively represent Mr. Perisic with regard to this particular
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
14 MR. HARMON: I would call Mr. Randall, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: How are you?
20 THE WITNESS: Good. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good. May you please make the declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
23 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
25 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
1 WITNESS: BRETTON RANDALL
2 Examination by Mr. Harmon:
3 Q. Mr. Randall could you state your name please and spell your last
4 name for the record.
5 A. My name is Bretton Randall. My family name is spelled
7 Q. Mr. Randall, I'm going to read to you, your background, and I
8 would ask you to affirm if what I have read is accurate.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. You graduated in 1982 from the Victoria Police Constable's
11 course in Melbourne, Australia. You were with the Uniform Police Service
12 in Victoria until 1987. In 1989 you graduated from the Victoria Police
13 detective training school. You were a detective for the Victoria Police
14 from 1988 until January 2001. You investigated cases of murder, rape,
15 armed robbery, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, extortion, drug
16 trafficking, drug importation, money laundering, corruption, foreign
17 incursions, and fraud. For ten years you specialized in investigating
18 crimes including organised crime involving or related to South East Asian
19 community. Between 1996 and 2000, you were seconded to the National
20 Crime Authority, a multi-jurisdictional, multi-disciplinary federal
21 criminal investigative body during which time you investigated domestic
22 and international drug importation, money laundering, and corruption
23 relating to the South East Asian community.
24 You commenced your duties as an investigator in the Office of the
25 Prosecutor at the ICTY on 9 February 2001. And you remained in that
1 capacity until you left on the 16th of November 2008.
2 You are currently employed at the ICC as an investigator with the
3 Office of the Prosecutor.
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. Mr. Randall, first let me begin by focussing your attention on
7 procedures at the ICTY.
8 Can you describe to the Chamber the procedure that is utilized in
9 collecting evidence and the chain of custody.
10 A. Well, once evidence comes into the custody of the Office of the
11 Prosecutor, it is then registered within the evidence unit, and by that,
12 the source of the evidence, the date it was received, from whom it was
13 received, a description is then entered. This is all done on an evidence
14 registration form. Any other pertinent information, if there was in the
15 caveats attached to it that were -- may have been applied at the time of
16 the provision.
17 That -- a document is then allocated a specific number. That is
18 then taken -- printed in hard copy. It's attached to the evidence
19 itself. It's then taken to the evidence unit where it is registered
20 within the evidence unit. The unique number which is the identifier for
21 that specific piece of evidence is entered into a document, and then the
22 evidence is then handed over to the evidence unit. Once it is it in the
23 evidence unit they then deal with the processing of the evidence which
24 includes, if it is a document for example, allocating an ERN number,
25 stamping it. It is then taken and put into -- is retained in possession
1 of the evidence unit and stored in the custody vaults.
2 Q. Okay. Now, can you also describe as part of your duties, did you
3 participate in analysing documentation from which requests for assistance
4 were disseminated?
5 A. Yes, did I.
6 Q. Can you describe briefly the Request for Assistance process.
7 A. Well, Request for Assistance is generated when an avenue of
8 inquiry is identified and that request can manifest itself in a number of
9 ways, can be sent to either a country or to a government or to a
10 particular international institution such as Interpol. An analysis is --
11 in summary analysis of material is conducted, from that an objective is
12 identified. We may request that a particular government issue a waiver
13 for a particular person, identify a particular person, provide documents.
14 It can relate to a number of different issues.
15 The request is then drafted usually that is done by members of
16 the investigations division, but at the time, also by some of the legal
17 team. It can also be from the military analysis team, leadership
18 research, for example. It is drafted. It is then sent to the Senior
19 Trial Attorney for approval, and if approved, it is then sent to the
20 Prosecutor for signature usually. Although at times the Senior Trial
21 Attorneys have also signed some of the these requests; they're then
22 forwarded to the respective government or institution. Usually we would
23 set a time -- a particular time-frame for a response depending on what
24 the request was. The average time that we allowed was generally four to
25 six weeks. If there was no response within that particular time, usually
1 a reminder would be sent to the government or the institution, seeking --
2 seeking a response.
3 Then a response would come back, and at times that would involve
4 the provision of certain documents, for example, and within an
5 accompanying letter that would then come back to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor, usually to the investigators, and the investigators were then
7 responsible for then entering the data into the -- as I described earlier
8 and submitting -- submitting the documents or the evidence to the
9 evidence unit for securing the process.
10 Q. What would happen if there was non-compliance with the request?
11 A. Well the options would be discussed among the team. One would be
12 to avail ourself to the use of Rule of 54 bis, but prior to doing that,
13 the usual process would be to - depending on where the -- to which
14 institution or country the request was sent to - if it was sent to, for
15 example, Serbia or Bosnia, we would ask the head of mission to make
16 approaches to the government and ascertain, you know, when we would
17 expect to receive a response, and hopefully that would be sufficient to
18 prompt a response. If not, then often the Prosecutor would be involved
19 and he would make a representation on behalf of the -- of the
20 Prosecution. And if that was -- if that didn't wasn't successful in
21 obtaining an adequate response, because quite often we would receive a
22 response and it may not be adequate for our understanding, we would then
23 -- well, we would then avail ourself to Rule 54 bis.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I could ask that Mr. Randall be
1 provided with the master list that I showed you earlier, and the exhibit
2 collection schedule, two-page document.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 MR. HARMON:
6 Q. Mr. Randall, you have seen both of those items before coming into
7 court. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. You can use -- can you use those items for reference when
10 I ask you about the source of certain documents.
11 MR. HARMON: If we could have Prosecution Exhibit 5046 on the
12 screen, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's, from the beginning, make it clear, is this
14 an exhibit you are asking for? Or is it a document you are asking for?
15 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 5046.
16 Q. This document --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Mr. Harmon, I do apologise. But
18 looking at the exhibit list, we have 65 ter 05020, and then the next
19 document is 05047. So we may be making a mistake. We find that on
20 page 70.
21 If it might be of some help, I believe this has also been
22 previously admitted into evidence as Exhibit 196.
23 MR. HARMON: If this is a previous exhibit, then I will withdraw
24 this exhibit. There's no need for Mr. Randall to testify about it.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. HARMON: If we could have 65 ter 5612 on the screen, please.
2 Q. Can you identify this document, Mr. Randall, what it is?
3 A. Record of handover of duty in respect of the accused.
4 Q. And this is handover of duty to what -- in what capacity?
5 A. Colonel General Perisic relinquishing his post to Colonel General
7 MR. HARMON: I would ask, Your Honour, that this be given an
8 exhibit number.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P702, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 5089 on the monitor, please.
14 Q. This is -- this is a document, Mr. Randall, that is a FRY
15 Presidential Decree dated the 24th November 1998. It is signed by
16 President Slobodan Milosevic, relating to the deployment and appointment
17 of General Perisic.
18 Can you identify the source of this document?
19 A. From memory, I believe that was provided when we requested
20 provision of VJ personnel file of the accused. I'm not sure which
21 request number it relates to but ...
22 Q. You care to refer to the master list in front of you and be more
24 A. What was the 65 ter again?
25 Q. 5089.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I suggest, Mr. Randall, that you refer to
2 Mr. Perisic as Mr. Perisic and not the accused.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 It was received from the government of Serbia and Montenegro in
5 response to our request to our Request for Assistance, number 1034.
6 MR. HARMON: If that that be given an exhibit number, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So given.
8 May it please be given a name.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P703, Your Honours.
10 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 5613 on the monitor, please.
11 Q. Mr. Randall, 5613 is a Presidential Decree dated the 12th of
12 March 1999. It is signed by President Milosevic, and it is the
13 termination of professional military service of Momcilo Perisic.
14 Can you identify the source of this document, please?
15 A. I believe it came in the same provision.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have a problem because the B/C/S
18 version of the document does not correspond to the English version. The
19 document that is being shown in B/C/S is the previous document that was
20 looked at.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON: Could we mark this for identification, Your Honour,
23 for the moment, and unless there's a -- just one moment, please.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For your information, the document in
1 e-court, how we received it on the hyperlink for the 65 ter network,
2 actually, does not correspond. What I'm trying to say is that we did not
3 receive the B/C/S version of the document that Mr. Harmon is looking at
4 now, and that's ERN number 06006005. We would like to receive the
5 correct document in B/C/S so that we can look at it, and then hopefully
6 we will have objection to the document, and I think it's fine for to be
7 MFIed right now.
8 MR. HARMON: We'll make sure the proper page is uploaded into
10 So if it could be given a number, it could be MFIed, and then we
11 will upload the proper page during the break.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we give that an exhibit number, marked for
13 identification, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P704, marked for
15 identification, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Also, if I might, before we get too far down the
18 road here, and I understand that Mr. Randall is identifying that he
19 received these documents from specific sources and has -- and has
20 described for us thus far both the chain of custody and RFA process. But
21 rather than stand up each time and interpose a potential relevance
22 objection to the document that is being admitted either individually or
23 when we reach the issue of groups of documents, I -- I question at this
24 time what is the purpose of the introduction of these documents, since
25 Mr. Randall was speaking to a very specific issue. That is, the question
1 of source, as opposed to the issue of the truth of the contents of the
2 documents themselves.
3 I'm asking at this point, so that we don't get into difficulty as
4 we go along. And I figure at the outset it's an issue that perhaps needs
5 to be addressed. Mr. Harmon may feel the same or he may feel
6 differently; I don't know.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, Mr. Randall is identifying the source
9 of these documents. If there is an issue on the relevancy of these
10 documents, obviously that is a separate objection; it can be raise; we
11 can address it. If there are relevancy objections tor the documents,
12 rather than addressing each of the documents individually in the process
13 of presenting this many documents, I would suggest that we identify
14 documents for which there is an relevancy objection at the conclusion of
15 Mr. Randall' evidence, that we make submissions as to the relevance of
16 each of the documents.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It seems to me that you are at cross-purposes with
18 your colleague. It looks like your colleague is talking about the
19 truthfulness of the contents of the documents rather than the relevance.
20 MR. HARMON: I don't understand the objection, Your Honour. I'm
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, so there is no misunderstanding, the
24 fact that the gentleman can identify a document in and of itself may be
25 of some use to the Chamber. But I assume that it is the Prosecution's
1 intent in the future to rely on the contents of the document, as opposed
2 to the fact that Mr. Randall can identify the document, the actual
3 contents that are contained in the document for the purposes of asserting
4 particular legal and factual arguments.
5 So that extent they're going to be relying on what is the truth
6 of the documents contained -- what is the truth of the matters that are
7 contained within the documents. My assumption, and perhaps I'm mistaken,
8 is that Mr. Harmon is going have some witness to connect all of these
9 documents up with some issues that are in fact relevant to the issues
10 before the Chamber. Otherwise, the document in and of itself has no
11 relevance, if it is to be considered outside of the information that's
12 contained therein, which is why I asked the question, what is the purpose
13 of introducing these documents.
14 Does that clarify my concern? I mean, that's the first issue.
15 Because I don't know want to be in a situation where there is any
16 misunderstanding here. Because if I don't know what the purpose is of
17 the proffer document, then I'm not in a position to challenge the
18 relevancy of the document. And rather than get into a situation where we
19 get used to the wholesale introduction of documents by virtue that
20 Mr. Randall is in a position to recognise the document itself, I think we
21 should probably have some clarification here.
22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, these are records that were received
23 from the state. They are records that we are introducing for the truth
24 of the their contents. The relevance of these documents establish what
25 is identified in the indictment as when Mr. Perisic began his duties as
1 chief of the General Staff, and when he ended his duties as the chief of
2 the General Staff.
3 So we are offering these documents for the truth of the content.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, understanding that position, I believe it
5 raises a couple of problems.
6 The first problem is that, unless the Prosecution can establish
7 some linkage between the document and the witness testifying, apart from
8 the fact that he received the document, then it is in violation of the
9 guidelines that we are to proceeding under.
10 Now, as I understand the purpose of Mr. Randall's testimony he
11 essentially operates as a chain of custody witness; nothing more, and
12 nothing less.
13 Two --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And was not in terms of a decision of the Chamber?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. So ...
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: That does not deal with the next issue, which is
18 if the Chamber receives a document, whatever document it may be, and
19 Mr. Randall operates as a chain of custody witness, that does not attend
20 to the issue of the contents of the document itself. That's a different
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... Chamber decided, so
23 -- and I think the Prosecution is proceeding according to the decision of
24 the Chamber. And so be it.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Randall, did you -- did the Office of the Prosecutor conduct
4 a suspect interview with General Perisic between the dates of the 6th of
5 December, 2003 and the 27th of January, 2004?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. During the course of that interview was General Perisic
8 represented by counsel?
9 A. He was.
10 Q. Prior to giving the interview, was he cautioned, pursuant to the
11 Rules of the Tribunal?
12 A. He was.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could I have -- what I would tender at
14 this point, Your Honour, is Prosecution Exhibit 2052. It is videotape
15 recordings of the interview and the accompanying transcripts. The
16 reference is on page 62 of the list that is before you, Your Honours.
17 The 65 ter number, Your Honour, is 2052.
18 Could that be given an exhibit number, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not seeing anything --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this is a set of extensive transcripts,
22 and I can display, if the Court please, the first page of the transcript.
23 I didn't feel the need to display this particular exhibit, but if
24 Your Honours wish that the first page of this be -- publicly displayed,
25 I'm happy to do so.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, it's just that when you depart from normal
2 procedure, do let us know. The normal procedure is that before you
3 tender any document or any exhibit, we first see it. So if you -- if you
4 are going to depart at least forewarn us.
5 MR. HARMON: All right.
6 JUDE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
8 So 2052.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 2052, may it please be given an exhibit number.
10 I don't know whether there is an objection from the opposite side
11 without having seen this exhibit.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is -- there is not.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. May it please be given an exhibit
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P705.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON:
18 Q. Mr. Randall, prior to providing a suspect statement, did
19 Mr. Perisic provide written responses to questions?
20 A. Yes. Through his counsel, from memory.
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm referring to exhibit 5002. Again,
22 departing from the normal procedure, I don't intend to exhibit this. I
23 would ask that it be given an exhibit number. It's on page 69 of the
24 list of the master list before you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 5002 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
1 given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P706, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. HARMON: Could I have -- bear with me here for just a minute.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 6635 on the monitor, please.
7 Could we turn to page 2 of this. The first page identifying this
8 as the rules of the procedure of the SDC.
9 Mr. Randall, what is the source 65 ter 6635?
10 A. I believe it is the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the
11 government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
12 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an exhibit number, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, it may.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P707, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. HARMON:
17 Q. Now, Mr. Randall, did the Office of the Prosecutor receive
18 minutes and transcripts of the Supreme Defence Council?
19 A. Yes, it did. It received from the government of the Federal
20 Republic of Yugoslavia pursuant to request number 219.
21 Q. And were there -- when reviewing those did you ascertain that
22 there were both transcripts and minutes of specific proceedings?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Were there some proceedings where there was only a set of minutes
25 and there was no stenographic record of the proceeding?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. HARMON: Could we go into private session, please,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into private session.
5 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
9 MR. HARMON: Could we have 65 ter 4993 on the monitor, please.
10 4993, Your Honours, is a protected documented. It is protected
11 in its entirety.
12 Q. Now, this is a set of minutes from the 43rd Session. Could you
13 -- dated the 29th of August, 1995.
14 MR. HARMON: Could you scroll up, please. Down then, please.
15 Q. And this has a schedule --
16 Mr. HARMON: If we could turn to the second page of this item -
17 and could you scroll up on the English. That's fine. Thank you?
18 Q. Now is this a session, Mr. Randall, for which there was no
19 transcript of the proceedings?
20 A. That's the 43rd. Yes, I believe that's correct.
21 Q. If you look it to the bottom of the document on the English
22 monitor above the word secretary.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And --
25 MR. HARMON: We would ask, Your Honour, that this be given a
1 number, an exhibit number, and that it be placed under seal.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May that document please be given an exhibit
3 number, under seal.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P708 under seal,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. HARMON: Could we return to public session, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into public session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 6966 on the
14 monitor, please. I'd just like the first page of this, please. All
16 This, Your Honours can see, from page 5 of the master list -- I'm
17 sorry, I'll take that back.
18 Q. This document, Mr. Randall, is a stenographic record of the
19 14th Session of the supreme Defence Council which was held on 11th of
20 October, 1993.
21 MR. HARMON: Could we --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point I would object to Mr. Harmon
23 leading by virtue of some of the other concerns that exist with regard to
24 how this evidence will be treated at a later point. If he wishes to
25 testify about what this document is, he is free to take the witness stand
1 and the oath.
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I don't think it's quite that drastic.
3 I'm trying to identify for the record what the document is so there is a
4 complete record.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, considering that -- well, I'll wait for a
6 minute because I shouldn't just jump up and respond and get into
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, if you can try to get the witness to
9 testify rather than you doing so. Just ask him questions.
10 MR. HARMON: I'd be happy to do, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Randall, let me find this on the master list.
12 6996 [sic], can you give us the source of this document, please?
13 A. Provided in response to request 219 to the Federal Republic of
15 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an exhibit number, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 6996 or 6966?
17 MR. HARMON: I apologise, Your Honour. It's 6966. I have been
18 looking at numbers all night long, so I'm somewhat dyslexic today. 6966.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can 6966 please be given a number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P709, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. HARMON: Now this is a document, Your Honour, that is -- I
23 would -- this presents a particular problem in the sense that certain
24 portions of this document are protected.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 MR. HARMON: Yes. So on page 115 of the master list,
2 Your Honour, there are certain pages of this document that are protected.
3 So I am in Your Honours' hands. I don't care to put the whole
4 document under seal. I care to put the document -- have part of document
5 be public and have -- which would be redacted, which would have redacted
6 from public view the parts that are protected. And I would have the
7 whole document under seal. In other words, there would be two versions:
8 One for the public with redactions; and one for Your Honours that would
9 be under seal, that would be the totality of the document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, can you guide us here? What is
11 more convenient?
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, we -- the Chamber is concerned about
14 the volume of documents that are being put in, and we can't afford to
15 have them in duplicate, so we would rather have the whole document under
17 MR. HARMON: That's fine, Your Honour.
18 Your Honour, if I now could distribute two schedules. We will
19 see how this process of the schedules works. I --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honours have received and what counsel has
22 received is a copy of a schedule with the minutes of the Supreme Defence
23 Council. They're numbered by session. And also included in this
24 schedule are the stenographic transcripts of the -- each of the sessions
25 and accompanying that is a 65 ter number and description. What I would
1 seek, Your Honour -- first of all, let me ask --
2 Q. Mr. Randall, did you receive a copy of the -- the schedule with
3 the SDC minutes and the stenographic records?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What is the source -- have you had a chance to review that?
6 A. The source of all the minutes and stenographic records was that
7 they were provided by the government of the Federal Republic of
8 Yugoslavia in response to Request for Assistance 219.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. HARMON: Now, Your Honour, I would like to do -- I would like
11 to identify for purposes of the record, and I would seek the admission
12 of, first of all, minutes, and we'll identify them, by 65 ter number.
13 These are minutes that are not protected. They are 65 ter number 064 --
14 00464, 00465, 00469, 00472, 00473, 2245, 4953, 4956, 4964, 4971, 4973,
15 4977, 4981, 5059, 5060, and 5061.
16 And these have no protections required, and I would seek the
17 admission of each of those documents.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Each of those documents are admitted into
19 evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number at your
20 convenience, Madam Registrar.
21 MR. HARMON: Then, Your Honour, in respect of minutes that are
22 now partially protections but in light of the Court's decision to protect
23 them all and if I could read -- ask that these items be admitted under
24 seal. It is 00466, 00467, 00468, 00470, 00471, 00474, 00475, 4955, 4958,
25 4959, 4960, 4961, 4962, 4963, 4965, 4968, 4969, 4970, 4972, 4974, 4975,
1 4976, 4986, 4987, 4988, 4990, 4991, 4993, 4994, 4967, 6364.
2 I'd ask that those be given exhibit numbers. Under seal, yes,
3 Your Honour.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm -- hold on. There it is.
5 To the extent that a number of these documents concern SDC
6 minutes which are outside of the indictment period, we would object. For
7 example -- 04987, 04955, for examples.
8 MR. HARMON: If those could be marked for identification only,
9 Your Honour, and address the objection specifically later.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but I'm not seeing 04987 on the list that you
11 have just ...
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's on page 4 of the schedule, Your Honour, at
13 the top of the page.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] That's true, that may
15 very well --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, are you referring to the transcript,
17 Your Honour?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be found at line -- page 26, line 3,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I found it now.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just so I'm clear, to the extent that any -- any
25 minutes are or transcripts, which I think we'll be coming to at a later
1 point in time, are outside of the indictment period, we would object and
2 we ask that they be marked for identification so that we can deal with
3 them collectively in terms of the legal ramifications at a later time.
4 MR. HARMON: I no objection to that, Your Honour. So if 4987
5 could be marked for identification.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May 4987 be marked for identification and be given
7 an exhibit number, and the rest be given an exhibit number at your
8 convenience, Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 4987 will Exhibit P726 under seal, MFIed. And
10 the rest I will distribute an internal memorandum.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam. You said this exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: 726, marked for identification, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: 726 MFI, under seal.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If might, Your Honour, I'm not sure, I'm having
16 somebody double check. There might be one or two other 65 ter numbers in
17 that schedule grouping that fall within the same problem of being outside
18 the indictment period.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. I guess, Mr. Harmon, has taken your point
20 on that. And may I suggest that out of the court, you would go through
21 and see what is outside and what is not outside.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perfect. That works.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, now, turning to transcripts that are
24 not protected, if I could identify the 65 ter numbers, and I will seek an
25 exhibit number for each of these items.
1 It's 65 ter number 6678, 6979, 6981, 6982, 6995, and 7010.
2 If I could seek admission of each -- be given an exhibit number
3 for each of those items, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May those exhibit -- what they called, documents
5 be admitted and given an exhibit numbers, please. Exhibit numbers.
6 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. These are stenographic
7 transcripts of specific sections of the SDC.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
9 Madam Registrar, once again, if you could do that at your
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: And, once again, we're in the same position that
12 we are with the others.
13 MR. HARMON: Right. We accept that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
15 MR. HARMON: If I could have the following stenographic
16 transcripts of SDC sessions marked -- admitted but under seal, and I will
17 identify the 65 ter numbers.
18 6235, 6235.01, 6639, 6640, 6677, 6967, 6968, 6969, 6970, 6971,
19 6972, 6973, 6977, 6978, 6980, 6983, 6984, and 6985.
20 I'm sorry, Your Honour. 6986, 6987, 6988, 6989, 6990, 6991,
21 6997, and 6999.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again, with the same agreement between the
24 MR. HARMON: Certainly, we accept that, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Could we accept that that is the agreement. Thank you.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine. Then I will not repetitively stand.
3 MR. HARMON: For each of those, Your Honour, I would request an
4 exhibit number and that those exhibits that I just identified be placed
5 under seal.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
7 Madam Registrar, can they be given exhibit numbers under seal,
8 please, at your convenience.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.
10 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 6606 on the monitor, please.
11 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please.
12 A. Yes, it's a document that's been provided by the Federal Republic
13 of Yugoslavia, for the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. And what is this document?
15 A. It's a record of a meeting held at Dobanovci on 25th of August,
17 MR. HARMON: I would ask, Your Honour, that this be given an
18 exhibit number.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P727.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 6653 on the monitor, please.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness's microphone, the other one, be
25 switched on, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it help if the microphone is switched on and
2 it's so far away from the mouth of the witness?
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, I'm advised that 6606 is already an
5 exhibit, P230, or something like that.
6 MR. HARMON: All right. If that's the case, then, Your Honour,
7 then obviously it shouldn't have two exhibit numbers.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then we will delete the exhibit number P727.
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, correct.
10 And could we have 6653 on our monitor.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: That I believe is P232.
12 MR. HARMON: Okay.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: 232, not 230. [Microphone not activated]
14 MR. HARMON: Then obviously that doesn't have to be exhibited.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 7500 on the monitor, please.
17 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document in front of you.
18 A. It's a record of the collegium of the chief of the Yugoslav army.
19 It says Main Staff, but I believe it's General Staff, held on
20 11 October 1995. And that was provided by the government of the Republic
21 of Serbia, and without reference to the master list, Your Honour, it is
22 probably provided in respect of a request, either 1302 or 1350-C, I
24 Q. Now if could you refer to your master list, Mr. Randall.
25 A. What was it --
1 Q. 65 ter 7500.
2 A. It was provided in response to Request for Assistance 1350-C by
3 the government of the Republic of Serbia.
4 MR. HARMON: I would ask that that be given an exhibit number,
5 Your Honour.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right before that, with regard to this particular
7 exhibit, we have pages 19 through 22 in B/C/S, and no more. I don't know
8 if that is the entirety of the Exhibit in English. I believe not.
9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we're seeking only those -- admission
10 of those pages on this document. And the first page.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: That may well be the case, but we apparently
12 never received any of the other pages with regard to this particular
14 MR. HARMON: What I'll do, Your Honour, at this point I won't go
15 into the collegium minutes. I will pursue another topic, and counsel and
16 I will have an opportunity to talk during the recess.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want me to do with this particular
18 tendered exhibit?
19 MR. HARMON: If could be withdrawn for the moment.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so withdrawn.
21 MR. HARMON: Could have I 65 ter 8952 on the monitor, please.
22 That certainly doesn't look like the document that I have in
23 front of me, Your Honour, I can tell you that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient time?
25 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
2 Court adjourned.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, the Chamber has just been sort of
6 wondering, whether in the interests of judicial economy is there any way
7 we can shorten the testimony. Do you have any suggestions?
8 MR. HARMON: The suggestions that I did have, Your Honour, have
9 been implemented. In other words, there are schedules to shorten the
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Much appreciated, yeah.
12 MR. HARMON: I can proceed for the moment. I will reflect on
13 what Your Honours' concerns are and what -- and I will see if I can
14 modify the presentation. But have I none right now. I have --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me articulate our observations, and maybe your
16 colleagues on the opposite side might contribute.
17 So far, you have given us these documents that you handed out
18 this morning which tell us where these the exhibits come from and what
19 source -- and what they are all about. And so far, your leading has been
20 for Mr. Randall to read from the documents that you handed out to tell us
21 where the documents come from. The question is: Shouldn't we rather be
22 spending time reading these documents now that you have told us where
23 they come from, by way of these pages? Rather than being in court here,
24 listening to him tell us what you have already told us.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, what I can do is I can talk to my
1 colleagues from the Defence and see if they're satisfied that this is
2 sufficient, and I will explore that with the Defence. But at this point
3 I am following the Court's decision which was to ask Mr. Randall as to
4 the provenance of the documents and the chain of custody.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. I understood. We understand.
6 Let's find out from the opposition and see what they say.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in preparing for this
9 testimony, and guided by your decision, we wanted to focus exactly on
10 those matters that are important to us, in terms of possible objections
11 to the documents. We are facing a large technical problem that doesn't
12 affect you directly probably but is major problem for us because we
13 cannot compare the English and the B/C/S because a large number of
14 documents are draft translations. So we need to do this, and it's a
15 large task. And having looked at a large number of documents, we believe
16 we will not have any objections. So in that sense perhaps we can make an
17 agreement to tender this from the bar table. It doesn't maybe need to go
18 through the witness. These are documents that are not in dispute.
19 We have spoken to Mr. Perisic, and he also significantly
20 contributed to the preparation of the Defence by giving us certain
21 suggestions. He also have the technical problem because he cannot follow
22 the documents because of the speed at which things are proceeding.
23 So we have two problems. On one hand, we have the technical
24 requirement for being more speedy, to which the Defence does not object;
25 but we also need to strictly follow the instructions of our client in
1 terms of our position in relation to certain documents.
2 So I'm concerned that with the speed of tendering the documents
3 something may be admitted that might turn out to have a problem with the
4 English translation which will crop up later. And I believe that if it
5 is an important mistake, it's something that we could, through dealing
6 with the witnesses or the interpreters, could be corrected. But perhaps
7 I can speak with Mr. Harmon and then for certain documents we have no
8 objections to, we could inform jointly the Trial Chamber about it, and
9 then perhaps the Chamber could agree to tender these documents in that
10 way and discuss only documents to which we might have an objection of a
11 legal nature or some other grounds.
12 And I don't know, perhaps Mr. Guy-Smith would like to add
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Recognizing the Chamber's concern as well as
16 desire with regard to efficiently using time, there is an good potential
17 that perhaps we can work out a mechanism whereby we're using time more
18 effectively. We do have an underlying concern about some potential legal
19 -- legal issues may arise by virtue of the introduction of this body of
20 documents both globally as well as specifically.
21 If we can figure out a way of, at a minimum, preserving those
22 matters, and I think with the conversation with Mr. Harmon we may well be
23 able to do that, then we may be able to come up with a way of doing this.
24 Something came to my mind as we were sitting here that might work in
25 terms of getting the information to you in a more efficient manner. At
1 least so it goes from this side of the room to that side of the room.
2 If -- and I don't know whether or not we can do that rapidly,
3 meaning within the next few minutes or whether that is going to take
4 perhaps a couple of hours of conferencing as between the Prosecution and
5 Defence, but that may be well of a manner of spending the time well and
6 ultimately saving a fair amount of court time from the standpoint of what
7 we're doing here.
8 But I would like to underscore that again with the fact there are
9 some both global as well as specific underlying legal issues that we do
10 have some concerns about. So I don't want to be in a position where --
11 I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't mean to interrupt. But I don't want to
12 be in a position whereby going through this particular method, we have
13 waived any substantive legal concerns that we may have.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If -- if the Chamber may make a suggestion
15 and let's hear whether it makes sense to you.
16 Taking into account the concerns of the Defence, and I hear your
17 concerns, wouldn't this be a better use of the time if you spend the time
18 going through the documents and checking them to decide which ones you
19 think you are prepared to accept globally and those that you think you
20 don't want to -- you want to challenge, then you say to the Prosecution,
21 We challenge these, and then we can deal with that challenge. Even if
22 you spend the whole day going through the paper and the documents, or two
23 days, I mean, the witness is -- is scheduled for the whole week, and I
24 that you would use this time better to familiarize yourself with the
25 documents and be in a position to make up your mind not at the speed of
1 which things are going as Mr. Lukic said.
2 My frustration is they're going so fast, too, I don't know what
3 I'm admitting. You know, I get 20 exhibits, and then I really don't know
4 what they are. I would sooner be spending this time reading them and
5 familiarizing myself with them, rather than sitting here and admitting
6 them when I don't know what I'm admitting.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand the Court's comments and concerns,
8 and actually -- and I am in agreement with the general proposition. And
9 I don't know -- I mean, I'm more than happy to sit down with Mr. Harmon
10 as I'm sure -- we're all happy to sit down and try and work out a way,
11 because ultimately if we could come up with a mechanism to get the
12 information to you that we agree upon can be guided to you and fight
13 about the rest, that's very sensible, whether or not it takes 15 minutes
14 or the whole day, considering that we have the time to do it.
15 I want to underscore, perhaps we can work this out, which is that
16 part of our difficulty in a global sense is in the absence of knowing
17 what certain documents are being offered for, apart from the general
18 statement that Mr. Harmon made earlier this morning which is offered for
19 the truth of the matter contained therein. We have a difficulty in terms
20 of responding to relevance issues. I say that is something that we may
21 be able to work out with Mr. Harmon as well, and we might as well try
22 that as opposed to doing this, because I think, ultimately, as the day
23 goes on, if we continue to engage in this particular kind of method,
24 tempers will grow short, frustrations will grow high, and none of us will
25 be effectively or -- and I don't mean to insult anyone intelligently
1 using the time that we have available to us.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's true. Maybe I might be able to sort
3 that --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: So I'm happy to take up your suggestion and do
5 whatever the Chamber thinks is fit. Which perhaps it's an appropriate
6 time -- this might be, as we would normally say, an appropriate time, and
7 then we can get together and try to get some work done.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know if that's --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that help, Mr. Harmon?
11 MR. HARMON: I have a slightly different suggestion, Your Honour.
12 What I would like to do is proceed with some of the documents today
13 because I think that I will be exhibiting a large number of documents,
14 and Your Honours will know precisely what you are admitting.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
16 MR. HARMON: I think there is some room for discussion. Because
17 there are categories of documents I sense for which there be no dispute.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
19 MR. HARMON: But those discussions I don't believe should take
20 place right now. They could take place after court. We could adjourn
21 for tomorrow and engage in those discussions and reconvene on Wednesday.
22 That would be one suggestion.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Dominus litus.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that with all due respect to my
25 colleague, he misses the point that we're dealing with right now, which
1 is if we continue doing what we're doing what we have done, there will be
2 no difference for the balance of the day with the same problems, and it
3 probably is a better way to use time for us to stop now and get together
4 and see if we can work out a way to streamline it even further.
5 My suggestion would be to do that at this time, and I leave it in
6 the Chamber's hands.
7 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On Friday I spoke with Mr. Harmon.
10 It meant a great deal to the Defence to receive the order of him
11 proceeding through various 65 ter numbers. We wanted to prepare
12 according to that order. I just spoke to him. He said that he was very
13 busy and that he might be able to prepare it for tomorrow.
14 The way Mr. Harmon has been proceeding so far has constituted a
15 great difficulty for us. These were large documents, and although we
16 have prepared for them, we are afraid that we might miss out on certain
17 things if we proceed at this speed. Proceeding this way will lead to us
18 fail our client's interests. The legislation placed by Mr. Harmon on the
19 exhibit list is for the better part of it, not in dispute for the
20 Defence. We could perhaps deal with that section and finish it now.
21 However, many other issues will pose a difficulty if we continue
22 proceeding this way.
23 All of the members of the team were quite alert throughout the
24 day, throughout this morning to make sure that there are no difficulties,
25 but it has been very hard for us.
1 Perhaps Mr. Harmon could take it document -- on a document by
2 document basis by placing individual documents on the screen. It will
3 take a long time. But at least we will make sure that we do not miss out
4 on something, and in general, this is a great difficulty for us,
5 proceeding this way, especially with the schedule.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That last comment, Mr. Lukic, throws a spanner in
7 the works. You are now saying he must go through the documents one by
8 one, which is precisely what we are trying to avoid, simply because of
9 the volume of the documents.
10 I mean, if he going to that, then we're going to have the witness
11 here for the rest of the year.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Please no. Please, please. Is he a nice man,
13 but, please, no.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: All I'm saying is, maybe we should be doing is to
15 try to persuade Mr. Harmon, and while respecting the fact that he is
16 dominus litus as I said, that you go and talk now rather than spend the
17 rest of the day going through these document, whether globally or
19 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think I have a way to proceed that is
21 a compromise, if you will. I think it's important that Your Honour see
22 the documents. I am prepared to exhibit a number of these documents one
23 at a time. I am prepared to identify similar documents in bulk by -- to
24 the Defence, and I will propose to the Defence that those similar, those
25 related documents be the subject of discussion. I won't go through them
1 all. I will give Your Honours a exemplar. And then perhaps when they
2 receive the documents, a list of the documents that are similar, we can
3 agree that those can be admitted.
4 I can get through I think fairly quickly today some of the more
5 important documents that I intend to exhibit to Your Honours. The
6 scheduled items I can put aside; we can discuss the matters of the
7 schedules, and we can then adjourn, I think, with the opportunity to talk
8 about what's on the schedules and come back on another day and say to
9 Your Honours, We have reached agreement as to these items that were on
10 the schedule that may constitute 30 documents.
11 That's one way to proceed, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to make one last attempt, and after
13 this, I give up.
14 I hear what you say, and I hear your concerns. And would your
15 concerns not be accommodated by a submission by you on what documents you
16 would like to draw the attention of the Chamber specifically to and say,
17 Go read those. And we can spend the rest of this week reading those
18 documents and reading the rest of the documents that we are able to read,
19 rather than going the way we've been going. And in the meantime you sort
20 out the problem in the manner that was suggested earlier. And you don't
21 have to make the submission now. You can make it at any time when are
22 you ready to make it, and we can pay attention to those documents.
23 If that doesn't satisfy you, then I think we will stop the
24 discussion, and you can go on.
25 MR. HARMON: I want to be perfectly clear and frank. I don't
1 intend to frustrate the Court. It's not my purpose for being here.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand.
3 MR. HARMON: My purpose is to have Your Honours consider certain
4 documents, some of which fall into certain classes or categories. I
5 personally find what has taken a lot of time are the schedules and the
6 reading of the numbers in the schedules. That is something I think that
7 can be resolved between the parties.
8 Your Honours want to read certain documents. Now, I'm prepared
9 to proceed in a -- we're proceeding at a rather expedited fashion right
10 -- in an expedited fashion right now. I'm prepared to go faster and
11 quicker, identify documents, ignore the schedules. The schedules will
12 the subject of discussion with my colleagues and when I finish what I
13 have prepared for the day, if we could adjourn, we can discuss the
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are in your hands. Proceed.
16 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind us, what happened to 8952?
18 MR. HARMON: 8952 looked like a blueprint when it was on the --
19 some sort of technical drawing when it was on the screen, but that was
20 the wrong document.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was the wrong document.
22 MR. HARMON: Let me ask if 8952 could be brought up on the
24 Q. Witness, can you identify what this document is.
25 A. The document from the FRY army, office of the chief of the
1 General Staff titled "organisation and method of work of the chief of the
2 General Staff and Yugoslav army Supreme Command staff," an order.
3 Q. Can we go to the last page of the document.
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could this document receive an exhibit
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this document, page 2,
8 we challenged the authenticity of the document. We don't think the
9 signature is authenticate, and that's our clients position.
10 MR. HARMON: If it could be marked for identification.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then the document will be marked for
12 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that be Exhibit P727, marked for
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I provide Mr. Randall with a
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unnecessary microphones please be
19 switched off.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which microphone?
21 THE INTERPRETER: All unnecessary microphones. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, Mr. Harmon your colleagues would like to
23 see what it is your handing over to the witness.
24 MR. HARMON: I mentioned earlier, I'm happy to have them look at.
25 This is a list of hard copy documents about which Mr. Randall will be
1 examined. It's easier to make a reference and --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: This is perhaps the advantages. It shows clearly
3 advantages and disadvantages of the hard copy system versus the
4 electronic system because I would hope that we could all be supplied with
5 a hard copy to that we can work with them. As a matter of fact, if that
6 was the situation, then we could all move at the same speed, which would
7 be another way of being more efficient.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe you can discuss that when you do talk about
9 expedition later.
10 MR. HARMON: Madam Registrar, could I have 65 ter 6842 put on
11 the ...
12 Could you scroll up, please -- or down. Could you turn to the
13 next page in the English, please.
14 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document?
15 A. It's a document from the Federal Secretary of National Defence
16 dated the 5th of May, 1992.
17 Q. Can we go back to the first page of the English.
18 MR. HARMON: Well, Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
19 given an exhibit number.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P728, Your Honours.
23 MR. HARMON: Could I have Exhibit 9064 on the screen.
24 Q. You should have that in front of you in a paper copy,
25 Mr. Randall.
1 A. 9064.
2 Q. Can you identify this document, Mr. Randall?
3 A. It's a report from the Federal Secretariat of National Defence.
4 MR. HARMON: Oh, excuse me, Mr. Randall. I'm sorry. This should
5 not be on the monitor, I'm told, so ...
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Harmon, we -- I don't understand what
7 you are saying. Why do you say it should not be on the monitor? Is it
8 the wrong document?
9 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour, it's a protected document, and I
10 failed to note that.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 MR. HARMON: It should be removed from the screen, that's what I
13 -- yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we remove from document.
15 MR. HARMON: From public viewing.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, from public viewing.
17 MR. HARMON: Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Randall, can you -- actually, this is a protected document.
19 I need to go into private session.
20 MR. HARMON: I apologise.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into private session.
22 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document?
2 A. Yes. It appears to a letter or report from the Federal
3 Secretariat of National Defence from personnel administration dated 6th
4 of May, 1992.
5 Q. Signed by Colonel General Blagoje Adzic?
6 A. Yes, this is a signature with this name.
7 MR. HARMON: I would like this to be given an exhibit number,
8 Your Honour, under seal.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given a number, under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P729, under seal,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MR. HARMON: Can I have Exhibit P422, 65 ter 422 on the screen,
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Still in private session?
16 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour, public session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
18 [Open session]
19 MR. HARMON: You have that exhibit before you, Mr. Randall?
20 A. Yes, it is a dis--
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 MR. HARMON: Sorry.
23 Q. Identify that document, Mr. Randall.
24 A. A decision on the competencies and manner of resolving
25 status-related issues for active military personnel and civilian
1 employees in the Yugoslav Army --
2 Q. Could they be --
3 A. -- issued under the name President of the FRY zone, Lilic.
4 MR. HARMON: May that be given an exhibit number, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is precisely the
7 document for which Mr. Randall is here. I challenged the authenticity of
8 the document. It doesn't bear either a signature or a stamp, and can
9 Mr. Randall tell us the provenance -- something about the provenance of
10 the document, rather than deal with it during the cross.
11 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, I was going to get to that. First
12 of all, I will ask him to identify the document, and then I'll ask him to
13 identify the provenance of the document. He has identified the document.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Randall, can you identify the provenance of 422?
15 A. If I can refer to the schedule, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: The source of that document is provided by --
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Mr. Randall, just wait a minute please.
20 Mr. Randall, what is the source of this document?
21 A. It was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the Republic
22 of Croatia.
23 Q. Okay. Pursuant to --
24 A. I can't say whether it was provided pursuant to a particular
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour,
3 and marked for identification, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In my view, the provenance stated
6 does not suffice to prove the authenticity of the document. I would like
7 the document to be MFIed for the time being. The fact which Mr. Randall
8 just referred to does not prove -- serve to prove the authenticity of the
9 document. You can see that the document was issued by the SFRY
10 Presidency in May 1992 at the time when the Croatian authorities were not
11 represented in the SFRY Presidency, as far as I am aware, and this is all
12 the more reason for me to challenge its authenticity.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I had asked that it be marked for
14 identification, this document.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be given an exhibit number
16 and marked for identification.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit P730, marked for
18 identification, Your Honour.
19 MR. HARMON: Could I have exhibit 525 on the screen, please.
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, please.
21 A. It's an order, a FRY order, of the president of the Republic
22 dated the 10th of November 1993, bearing the name Zoran Lilic as
24 Q. The source of this document?
25 A. 525. That was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the
1 government of Serbia and Montenegro in response to Request for
2 Assistance 1127.
3 MR. HARMON: May that be given a number, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P731, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 1295 on the monitor, please.
8 Q. Can you identify this document, Mr. Randall. Should have a copy
9 in front of you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The only problem being that we don't have it on
11 your list, on your 65 ter list. We've got 1295.01.
12 MR. HARMON: It could be 1295.01, then, Your Honour, on the list.
13 A. Yes that's an order dated the 12th of November 1993, bearing the
14 name of lieutenant-general Momcilo Perisic who is issued in response to
15 -- by the government of the Republic of Serbia in relation to a Request
16 for Assistance 654-A. But that translation -- the translation -- oh,
17 yes. That is the correct translation.
18 MR. HARMON: Can this be given an exhibit number, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
20 an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P732, Your Honours.
22 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 573 on the monitor, please.
23 Q. Do you recognise that document, Mr. Randall? Can you identify
24 this document?
25 A. It's an order of the chief of the VJ General Staff dated
1 15 November 1993 under the name Colonel General Momcilo Perisic.
2 Q. What's the provenance of 573?
3 A. That was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by the
4 government of the FRY in response to Request for Assistance 219.
5 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P733, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. HARMON: Next exhibit, could I have 524 on the monitor.
10 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document, 524?
11 A. Yes. This is a Yugoslav army General Staff personnel
12 administration instruction on the functioning and programme of activities
13 of special personnel centres, under the name Lieutenant-General
14 Momcilo Perisic.
15 Q. And the source of the document, please?
16 A. The government of Serbia and Montenegro, in response to Request
17 for Assistance 1127.
18 MR. HARMON: Could that have an exhibit number, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We challenge the authenticity of the
23 signature on the last page, and I propose that it only be MFIed.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response?
25 MR. HARMON: That's fine, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number and
2 marked for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P734, marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 MR. HARMON: Next exhibit, if we could have 7117 on the monitor.
7 Q. Mr. Randall, in your binder it might also be tab 610.
8 A. I've got 7117.
9 Q. You've got 7117. That's fine. All right.
10 A. Hang on.
11 MR. HARMON: Can we turn to the second page in the English,
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You can see for yourself that the
15 B/C/S and English versions are different documents.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: All right. In the English version, can we go to the
18 next page, please. In the English version. If we go to the next page in
19 the English version, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... the next page,
21 Mr. Harmon.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. HARMON: This is the document that I was seeking,
24 Your Honour.
25 Q. And, Mr. Randall, can you identify this document and tell us the
1 source of the document?
2 A. Sorry, are we on 7117 on 610 because --
3 Q. 7117, sir.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. And if you would look at the monitor on the screen, in front of
6 you, there's an order.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us the source of that document -- can you identify
9 the document, first of all, and can you tell us the source of that
11 A. It's a FRY president of the republic order dated 28 March 2001
12 bearing the name of the president Vojislav Kostajnica. And the
13 provenance of that was the -- authorities of the Republika Srpska, I
14 believe. I'll just check.
15 Yes, the authorities of Republika Srpska in response to Request
16 for Assistance 535 to the Republika Srpska.
17 MR. HARMON: Could that have an exhibit number, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any difficulty with the
20 version we have on our screens to be exhibited. But the English version
21 is accompanied by two more pages which are not part of the document.
22 Can only -- if only page 3 and 4 of the English version and the
23 B/C/S version are admitted, I have no problem with that.
24 MR. HARMON: That's fine, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Pages 3 and 4 of the English version are admitted.
1 May they please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P735, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. HARMON: Could I have 1289 on the monitor, please.
5 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document in front of you?
6 A. That's a General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia order on
7 organisation mobilisation changes in the army of Yugoslavia.
8 Q. Provenance of the document, sir?
9 A. That was provided by the government of Republic of Serbia. But I
10 can't say in respect of which particular request.
11 MR. HARMON: Could that have an exhibit number, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P736, Your Honours.
14 MR. HARMON: Next exhibit, could I have 5614 on the monitor.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have 7939 on the monitor, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Seven ...
20 MR. HARMON: 7939, Your Honour.
21 Can you scroll up on that, please.
22 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this particular document?
23 A. 7939.
24 Q. Yes, sir.
25 A. Sorry, I don't have a copy here in the binder.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are these the same -- are these documents similar?
2 The B/C/S has disappeared now. Okay.
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, they appear to be similar
4 documents on the monitor.
5 Q. What is this document, sir?
6 A. I'm just looking at the English version. It appears to be a
7 letter to the prime minister of the Republic of Serbia,
8 Mr. Zoran Djindjic and 7937.
9 Q. And the source?
10 A. Provided by the government of the Republic of Serbia in response
11 to Request for Assistance 1029 A.
12 MR. HARMON: Could this be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is -- yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I challenge the authenticity of this
15 document, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I thought I
17 heard you say relevance, and I thought I heard interpretation saying
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I challenge the relevance of the
20 document. The document is from 2001, which speaks indeed of the issues
21 related to the indictment period. However, in view of the fact that the
22 letter was produced a long time after Mr. Perisic ceased to perform his
23 role in the General Staff, the document is not relevant to any legal or
24 factual finding that the Chamber may make. It was produced in 2001, and
25 deals with other matters, and as such I don't think it's relevant.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, this is a document that was issued by
3 the VJ General Staff dated the 17th of March, 2001. On page -- bottom of
4 page 2 in the English and top of page 3, it says and I quote:
5 "Status and material position of personnel members of the 30th
6 Personnel Centre. One, the personnel centre situation." Next sign,
7 "numerical strength at the time of the establishment of the 30th
8 Personnel Centre. Professional servicemen, 2.461; civilians, 1.722;
9 total, 4.183."
10 That's the first part is relevant in this document that is beyond
11 the time-period of the time when General Perisic was the chief of the
12 General Staff.
13 On page 7 of the document, page -- subpart 4.1 the document says
14 and I quote:
15 "In line with the special decision of the federal minister of
16 Defence salaries and other allowances were not paid in full to
17 professional servicemen of the 30th Personnel Centre for the period from
18 1 September to 31 January, 1995, but in a reduced amount and in
20 Subpart 4.2 of the document says:
21 "Because of unused annual leave during the war in the RS, 1.720
22 members of the 30th Personnel Centre submitted a request for compensation
23 on these grounds."
24 Your Honours will receive in the course of the evidence in this
25 case decisions on unused annual leave that went from the -- military post
1 to the supreme military court to the federal court, in which members of
2 the 30th Personnel Centre sought unused annual leave as acting members of
3 the VJ who were serving in Bosnia in the VRS. The lower court denied
4 those claims. The supreme military court upheld those claims and
5 concluded that those persons who sought compensation for unused annual
6 leave were VJ soldiers who had been sent on the orders of their superior
7 officer to serve in the VRS. Subsequently those claims went up to the
8 federal court and were affirmed.
9 So this document, Your Honour, is relevant in three ways. It
10 establishes the number of members of the 30th Personnel Centre, the time
11 it was created. It establishes the number of people in the VJ who sought
12 claims for unused annual leave. And it identifies a time-period when
13 there was reduced compensation to members of the 30th Personnel Centre
14 from the VJ.
15 It is relevant for those three particular reasons.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, may I suggest that when we get a
17 situation like this, where there is an objection, particularly on
18 relevance, that we deal with the objection rather than with the content
19 of the document, because now you have testified about the whole document,
20 You know -- yeah, no. You could have dealt with it without going into
21 the contents because the purpose of the objections is to precisely to
22 keep the contents off the record.
23 And there is a way of doing so without going into the contents.
24 But I have heard what you have said.
25 Do you have any response, Mr. Lukic?
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This document has 12 pages. The
2 B/C/S version has six pages, followed by some tables. The English
3 version has 12 pages. I am afraid that this is a large document
4 mentioning matters that are not relevant. I suggest that it be MFIed for
5 the time being. We will check the difference in the translation.
6 Now, as for the individual facts referred to by Mr. Harmon, I
7 don't have difficulty with those two pages being admitted into evidence,
8 but I do object to the tables being admitted.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... it will be
10 helpful to this Chamber if we can stay consistent on our objections.
11 Don't shift goalposts, okay? I can't now rule on your subsequent
12 objection. I'm going to rule on the first only.
13 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
14 an exhibit number and marked for identification.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P737, marked
16 for identification.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON: The next document, Your Honour, if I could have 1287
19 on the monitor. I'm just asking that, first of all, I need page 13 of
20 the English.
21 Q. And, Mr. Randall, do you recognise the document that is in front
22 of you, 1287?
23 A. Yes, I do. It's a list of professional soldiers from the
24 30th Personnel Centre, and it was provided by the government of Serbia
25 and Montenegro in response to RFA 1127.
1 Q. What specifically was requested in RFA 1127?
2 A. That was a -- that was a very big -- it was a request that
3 covered a large number of topics, but that I believe we asked for a list
4 of all professional servicemen who had served in the 30th -- in the
5 Yugoslav army 30th Personnel Centre for the duration that the centre
7 Q. And the list that is in front of you, do you -- how many --
8 MR. HARMON: Can we turn to the last page of the English, please.
9 Q. If you see on the monitor in front of you, Mr. Randall, there's a
10 number at the bottom. What does 1455 represent?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is outside of his purview. That is not the
14 reason he has been called to testify here. The document speaks for
15 itself. Is he here as a messenger, a custodian to show the chain of
16 custody, not to interpret the documents. And the B/C/S version also is
17 just -- is only one page long.
18 MR. HARMON: I can rephrase the question.
19 Q. Was the document that is -- you were given was that a document
20 that was in response to the Request for Assistance for 1127?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, that question has been asked and answered.
22 MR. HARMON: All right. I will withdraw the question. And if
23 this could be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
24 Could this be given an exhibit number, sir?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, your learned friend is on his feet.
1 MR. HARMON: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As Mr. Guy-Smith said, we only
3 received the first page of the B/C/S version, whereas the English version
4 has a hundred-odd pages.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have no response to that. It is a
7 disclosure issue. I will make sure the Defence has the remaining portion
8 of this list. I will check to see whether the complete list was
9 disclosed because I don't know that standing on my feet. I would ask
10 that this receive an Exhibit, that it be given MFI number, and then I
11 will resolve the issue of disclosure with my friends after court.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number and marked for identification.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P738, marked for
15 identification, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have four more documents to explore
18 with the witness, and then I would suggest it's an appropriate time for
19 my colleagues and I to sit down and see if we can resolve this in a
20 shorter fashion. But I would like to Exhibit four more documents.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Witness, if we could -- I have -- I'm sorry --
24 MR. HARMON: Madam Registrar, could we have 7993 [sic], please.
25 Q. This should be in your binder, Mr. Randall.
1 A. 7993. No.
2 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I must be a little tired.
3 It is 7933 not 7993. I'm sorry, Madam Registrar.
4 THE WITNESS: 7933, no, I don't have it in the binder.
5 MR. HARMON: Okay.
6 Q. Well, then if you look at the monitor, Mr. Randall.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you identify this document?
9 A. Yes. It's a decision assigning the tasks and territory where
10 service is performed in difficult (special) conditions issued by the
11 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia sector for operations, dated
12 15 June 1993. And that was provided by the government of the Republic of
13 Serbia in response to Request for Assistance 1541.
14 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so given.
16 May it please be given a number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P739, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. HARMON: Could I have 7932 on the monitor, please.
20 Q. Can you identify 7932? Again that's another decision issued by
21 the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia sector for operations, the
22 decision on assigning the tasks and territory where service is performed
23 in difficult special conditions, provided by the government of the
24 Republic of Serbia in response to RFA 1541.
25 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it please be given a number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P740, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. HARMON: Could I have 65 ter 5090 on the monitor, please.
5 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify the document that is in front of
7 A. Yes, it's another -- another decision on determining the tasks
8 and territory where service is performed under difficult (special)
9 conditions issued by the General Staff of the Yugoslav army sector for
10 operative affairs first administration. And that wanted provided by the
11 government of Serbia and Montenegro in response to Request for Assistance
13 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
15 exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P741, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. HARMON: Could I have exhibit 65 ter 9022 on the monitor,
20 Q. Mr. Randall, can you identify this document?
21 A. It's another decision to amend the decision prescribing tasks and
22 the territory in which service is performed under aggravated (special)
23 conditions. And that was provided by the government of the Republic of
24 Serbia in response to Request For Assistance 1643.
25 MR. HARMON: Could that be given an exhibit number, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P742, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I suggest that we adjourn for --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] My apologies.
7 MR. HARMON: That would be fine, Your Honour. And In the
8 meantime I will try to consult -- I will consult with my colleagues and
9 see if we can reach some resolution on some of these other documents.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 We will take a break now and come back at 12.30.
12 Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon, are we in luck?
16 MR. HARMON: We have some luck, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We do?
18 MR. HARMON: Some work, as a result of a hard work, Your Honour,
19 but we have some. First of all, if I could take care of a housekeeping
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But all means.
22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, P705.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
24 MR. HARMON: Which was the 65 ter 2052 videotape recordings of
25 the suspect interview and transcripts. I am told that the various
1 subparts of 2052 need to be given a separate exhibit number.
2 So if we go to 2052 in the master list, you will see - page 62 -
3 you will see a number of subparts which have yet to be admitted under a
4 separate number, and I'm told that is a requirement to the subparts.
5 So what I'm seeking, Your Honour, is a separate exhibit number
6 for 2052.01 through 2052.18.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see there's no reaction from the opposite side.
8 Madam Registrar, is it possible to give those exhibits a number,
9 please, at your convenience. There are quite a number of them. You
10 can't do them right away.
11 THE REGISTRAR: I will distribute an internal memorandum,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MR. HARMON: Then, Your Honour, there are some documents for
15 which there is no objection. Let me identify those by number, and I
16 would ask that they be given a 65 -- an exhibit number. And I will just
17 very briefly identify the nature of the documents and the category of
19 The first set of documents for which there is an agreement relate
20 to the VJ military courts. Three of the documents are reports on the
21 summary of the military courts: 9054, which is a report on the summary
22 of the work of the military courts in 1993; 9055, which is a report on
23 the work of the military courts in 1994; 9066, which is a summary of the
24 work of the military courts in 1995.
25 Once again my eyes have failed me, Your Honours. Apparently
1 9056, not 9066. So I would apologise.
2 Those are three documents for which there is no objection. In
3 addition, Your Honour, there are two documents, 6503, which is the Law on
4 The office of the military Prosecution. And 6504 which is the Law on
5 Military Courts, and there is no objection to any of those documents
6 being giving exhibit numbers. And I have two additional schedules.
7 And then there is a set of documents, Your Honour, if I can just
8 list them all. And my colleagues will -- at the end I will agree to this
9 submission. There are a series of documents, Your Honour, that come out
10 of a file relating to a lawsuit brought by Dragomir Milosevic for
11 compensation for wounds he suffered in Sarajevo. He brought that lawsuit
12 against the federal government of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav army.
13 So let me identify the numbers of these 65 ter numbers, and I
14 will seek admission of these as well.
15 8036, which is Dragomir Milosevic's claim and the first -- for
16 damages; 8056, which is a judgement of the 2nd Municipal Court in
17 Belgrade, relating to that claim; then there are a series of documents
18 that came out of the personnel file that I intended to put on a schedule.
19 They are 7994, 8038, 8037, 8039, 8040, 8042, 8045 to 8055, so ten
20 documents. 8063 --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Is that two ...
22 MR. HARMON: No. I'm going too fast.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's 28055?
24 MR. HARMON: Yes, correct.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Five digits.
1 MR. HARMON: Yes, 8045, 8046, 4748, all the way up to 8055.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: So that's to and including.
3 MR. HARMON: To and including.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Okay, say that again now
5 slowly for those of us who are slow on the uptake, 8055 to ...
6 MR. HARMON: 8045 ...
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 8045.
8 MR. HARMON: To 8055.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: To 8055. Thank you so much. You may proceed.
10 MR. HARMON: 8063, 8064, 8065, and 8067.
11 Then there are a series of documents that are VJ intelligence
12 reports prepared by the VJ General Staff sector for operations and staff
13 affairs. 8787, 87 -- 8787.01 through and including 8787.18.
14 So those are the documents for which we have reached an agreement
15 as -- we would then seek, once counsel confirms that, we would seek that
16 each of those items be given an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, do you confirm?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me be more precise because of the
19 error in the transcripts at page 62, line 17, let me repeat that we
20 consented to documents 8787 and 8787.01 through to 012 and 8787.14
21 through to .18.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So .13 is not admitted.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think there is a bit confusion in our
24 discussions and the items -- perhaps the time to clarify that would be
25 after court. But I think we have a different understanding as to what
1 was agreed upon. I'm happy to take the item.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
3 MR. HARMON: .13, at this point, out. And we will address that
4 when we reconvene, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
6 MR. HARMON: Now, Your Honour, what I -- the parties suggest is
7 that we adjourn and reconvene on Wednesday, and that will give us an
8 opportunity to examine the remaining documents. The Defence will examine
9 the master list, determine what is acceptable, what is not acceptable,
10 and then we would be prepared to make submissions and proceed then on the
11 remaining documents for which there is no agreement, but similar
12 submissions for which there are agreements.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks, Mr. Harmon. Once again now with the
14 correction you made, do you confirm, Mr. Lukic?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Our discussions went in that
16 direction. We tried to achieve as much agreement on as many issues as
17 possible whilst protecting the interest of our client.
18 Therefore, I do uphold the suggestion by Mr. Harmon.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But specifically I was asking about the
20 admission of these documents, from 9054 to 8787.1 -- [overlapping
21 speakers] ...
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...
23 yes, yes. My apologies.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, thank you so much. At your
25 convenience, can you please give exhibit numbers to those exhibits.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Will do, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And let me just express the Chamber's appreciation
3 for the parties cooperation on the way forward. I appreciate it. I hope
4 we also give you time to go and attend to your work, Mr. Randall.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I will be back at the ICC
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Randall, you are not yet excused from the
8 witness box.
9 A. I'm sure you do know that while you're in the witness box you may
10 not discuss the case with anyone.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not even with the Prosecution.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Until you are excused.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 We will then adjourn to Wednesday, we said? And we're sitting in
18 the morning on Wednesday. Yes, indeed.
19 Courtroom 1, 9.00 in the morning, Wednesday.
20 Court adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.42 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
23 March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.