1 Thursday, 19 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom and behind the pillar. Madam Registrar, will you please call
8 the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so. Could we have the appearances for
13 today, starting with the Prosecution.
14 MR. THOMAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
15 everybody in and around the courtroom. Barney Thomas, Lorna Bolton,
16 April Carter, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Thomas.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
20 afternoon to everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is today
21 represented by Tina Drolec, Milos Androvic, Daniela Tasic, Gregor
22 Guy-Smith, and Novak Lukic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Good afternoon,
24 Mr. Dozo.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you are still bound by the
2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you
4 very much.
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 WITNESS: NEDZIB DOZO [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. Mr. Dozo, good afternoon. We shall continue where we left it off
10 yesterday. I would like warn both you and myself to make a little pause
11 after my question, do not start to answer immediately, and if you are
12 going to give a lengthy answer, please, do it slowly for the
13 interpreters. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: First, I would like the court to produce a copy of 65
15 ter 9244, which is a map of Sarajevo
16 pin-point for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and everybody in the
17 courtroom the locations that we spoke about yesterday.
18 Could the right-hand side of the map be blown up, even a bit
19 more, please. Scroll up a little, please. Excellent, thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Dozo, I would like to ask you about some of the locations
21 that we have already mentioned. Are you able to find your bearings on
22 the map?
23 A. Yes, I can.
24 Q. First of all, I would kindly ask you to encircle and mark by
25 number 1, the location known as Sedrenik?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Very well, you don't have to make a circle, it's okay. Grdonj
3 hill is something that you are familiar with, are you not? Could you
4 please find it on this map and mark it by number 2.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Likewise, on Kobilja Glava, another hill top, can you mark that
7 by putting number 3 next to it. Do you see it on the map?
8 A. Kobilja Glava is a neighbourhood.
9 Q. Yes, you're right.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Do you see the neighbourhood called Barutana. Can you mark it by
12 putting number 4 next to it.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Do you agree with me that all the locations that you've just
15 marked were part of the territory under the control of the BiH Army?
16 A. The BiH Army was in control of settlements, these are settlements
17 and neighbourhoods. As soon as you leave a neighbourhood, the Army of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina no longer controlled that territory.
19 Q. And the settlements or neighbourhoods that we have just marked
20 with the numbers were the neighbourhoods under the control of the BiH
21 Army; am I right?
22 A. These neighbourhoods were inhabited by its residents, by their
23 residents, and that meant that these neighbourhoods were under the
24 control of the BH Army.
25 Q. Do you agree with me that the separation line was immediately
1 outside of these neighbourhoods and that the area outside of those
2 territories was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you see Spicasta Stijena on this map?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then if that is the case, could you please mark by number 5 the
7 location known as Spicasta Stijena?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. So this is on the elevation between Grdonj and Sedrenik; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. According to you, Spicasta Stijena was under the control of the
13 members of the Army of Republika Srpska; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted into
16 evidence, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D68, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There's no need for this document,
22 Madam Usher.
23 Q. Let me just ask you a few more questions to bring this topic to
24 an end, and I'm talking about the incident involving Mrs. Selmanovic.
25 Yesterday, you said that after you had seen her after several months, and
1 interviewed her, you did not show her the photos that were taken on the
2 spot, on the day when the investigation was carried out?
3 A. Mrs. Selmanovic was not shown any photos because the photos were
4 filed with the MUP of the Sarajevo
5 Q. And with regard to the contents of the official note after your
6 interview with her, she never explained to you where she was facing when
7 she was hit?
8 A. I can't remember. I don't have the official note before me, but
9 I believe that she said that she had gone out to fetch some fuel wood,
10 and at that moment when she was gathering the fuel wood, she had been hit
11 from Spicasta Stijena.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P1940,
13 for a moment.
14 Q. I agree with you, and this is approximately what the note has
15 recorded, but I would like to avoid any confusion and I would like to ask
16 you this: Did she tell you what her position was with regard to the
17 house and with regard to Spicasta Stijena; do you remember that?
18 A. No, I don't remember that. Maybe my memory could be jogged by
19 the official note, if that has indeed been recorded in the official note.
20 Q. [No interpretation]
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you saying that from this record we cannot see how her body
23 was positioned with regard to Spicasta Stijena at the moment she was hit
24 and injured?
25 A. Yes, you are right.
1 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to the second part of your testimony.
2 Yesterday you testified and your statements also mention the events that
3 preceded this incident, which we call Markale II in August 1995. As far
4 as I could understand your statement and your testimony, the incidents
5 that preceded the Markale II incident point to the fact that in your view
6 that was a way to correct the sighting device in order to be able to hit
7 the city marketplace, would that be the essence of your testimony and the
8 statements that you provided regard to the events that preceded Markale
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know which projectiles were used when the children and
12 other people were injured in the previous incidents?
13 A. I can't remember, but I believe that those were 120 millimetre
14 mortar shells.
15 Q. When you go to an onsite inspection, when you are a member of an
16 inspection team, you do not receive subsequent information from the
17 ballistics expert about the facts that he established?
18 A. No, not officially.
19 Q. Yesterday, when we marked the incidents that you described on the
20 map, and I'm talking about the incidents that had preceded the Markale II
21 incident, you could not tell us exactly when the incidents took place
22 with regard to the Markale II incident?
23 A. That's correct, I could not remember the date.
24 Q. With regard to those events that you described in your testimony
25 yesterday, you did not have any document about the inspection that was
1 carried out with regard to these incidents, you did not have them on you.
2 Did the Prosecution ever show them to you?
3 A. No, I did not have any documents on me.
4 Q. The Prosecutor did not show you a single document that could be
5 brought in connection with your description of any of these instance?
6 A. No.
7 Q. As for the first incident when the children were injured, that's
8 how I'm going to define the incident because I don't remember the name of
9 the street. I understand that according to your information, the
10 projectile had come from the direction of Barica from the north?
11 A. Yes, from the street called Geneta [phoen] Cikma Street.
12 Q. And the second incident, half an hour later when several shells
13 fell in the vicinity of Markale, you obtained information that the
14 projectiles had come from the direction of south from Lukavica?
15 A. Yes, from the direction of Racan and Lukavica or the slopes of
17 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, just for the record I would hold out to
18 the court that this is an inaccurate depiction of the evidence from
19 yesterday. The incident where the children were injured and the three
20 separate shellings were on two different dates per the witness's
21 evidence. So it's a misstatement of the facts.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was very -- I did
24 not deduce what he testified but what I learned from the proofing notes
25 and from the sketch that he made, and that's how I am asking -- putting
1 my question to the witness and that's how the witness understood me. I
2 may have worded my question incorrectly.
3 I just wanted to define the part of the his testimony provided
4 yesterday that referred to the two incidents. He may not have spoken
5 about the directions of the shells yesterday, but that's not how I put my
6 question to the witness.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I seem to understand Madam Carter to be saying
8 that there are two separate incidents which took place on two separate
9 dates or times. The one in incident involving the children and the other
10 three separate shellings. Yeah. They happened on two different dates.
11 Now, I'm not quite sure whether you had suggested to the witness that
12 they had happened on the same date, but I didn't pick that up, but...
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There may have been a mistake in the
14 interpretation. The witness did say, and I repeated, that the two
15 incidents were several days apart. There is no dispute about that at
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, if you look at page 7 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sorry. It's line 7, page 7, you say:
20 "And the second incident, half an hour later, when several shells
21 in the vicinity of Markale," suggesting that it's the same date.
22 And that's, I think, what Madam Carter is objecting to. So they
23 were separate dates, not half an hour later.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was an interpretation mistake. I
25 said the second incident that happened within the framework of half an
1 hour, this is what I said, the interpreters may have not understood me.
2 I'm trying very hard to speak slowly today.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what do you mean by within the framework of
4 half an hour? Aren't you suggesting the same date by so saying?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no. The witness himself said
6 that this happened a few days later within the scope of a half an hour on
7 a different date, not on the date when the children were injured.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm with you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. The second incident which happened a few days later was the
11 incident that involved shelling from the direction of Racan Lukavica
12 according to your information?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This would be the southern part of Sarajevo in the opposite
15 direction of the location that is Barica?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know approximately how far Lukavica is from Markale?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You are saying, Mr. Dozo, that you were a member of the team
20 which carried out onsite inspection on the two occasions: The first one
21 when the children were hurt, and the second one a few days later when
22 there was repeated shelling in various locations around Markale; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And one of the shells, according to you, fell only some 30 metres
1 away from Markale where the incident happened on the 28th, that's what
2 you said, isn't that?
3 A. Yes, it hit the building which housed the representative office
4 of Konzum.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that if somebody wants to adjust the
6 precision of a mortar, the mortar would have to remain at the same
7 location and only the sights would have to be adjusted; is that right?
8 A. If you are referring to one shelling only, then that could be the
9 case, yes.
10 Q. Can the sights be adjusted if a mortar is fired from different
11 parts of town?
12 A. Well, there were so many artillery pieces that there was no need
13 to transfer them from one line to another, if I understood your question
15 Q. You did not participate in the onsite investigation. Do you know
16 from which direction it was established that Markale II were fired on on
17 the 2nd of August?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know what kind of projectile landed in that location?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I assume that you were aware that one of the mandates of UNPROFOR
22 in Sarajevo
23 fired from. They monitored the positions of both the BH Army and the
24 Army of Republika Srpska?
25 A. Yes, they did.
1 Q. Are you aware that representatives of UNPROFOR on the 28th of
2 August, 1995, did not observe any artillery activity at the positions of
3 the Army of Republika Srpska?
4 A. I'm not aware of that.
5 Q. Mr. Dozo, you told us that you were a member of the two teams
6 that carried out the onsite investigations concerning the events that
7 happened in the immediate vicinity of the Markale location, but you will
8 agree with me that this is not within the competence of your police
10 A. Markale II, where the shell landed, that is not part of the
11 jurisdiction of the Stari Grad police administration.
12 Q. But rather of the Centar police station; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. There was an onsite investigation 30 metres away from that
15 location, so what were you doing there?
16 A. The third shell which hit the Konzum building landed on the
17 territory of Stari Grad municipality in the immediate vicinity of the
18 cathedral, some 30 metres away from the Markale market.
19 Q. So the Markale market is at the border between the territories of
20 two police stations?
21 A. Close to it.
22 Q. Mr. Dozo, would I be wrong if I were to say that when an
23 investigating judge carries out an onsite investigation, as you
24 described, and there were some such situations where you were a member of
25 the team, the Stari Grad police station would only have the task of
1 securing the area?
2 A. Uniformed police officers are tasked with securing the site,
3 whereas the team coming to assist at the onsite investigation is
4 duty-bound to preserve the traces and to find pieces of the shell that
5 had exploded in this case.
6 Q. So you are saying that you actively participated in finding parts
7 of the evidentiary material?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In relation to all these onsite investigations concerning the
10 shellings, and I asked you yesterday about the sniper incident, and you
11 will confirm that you always arrived on the spot when victims had already
12 been taken to hospital or unfortunately to the morgue, as the case may
13 be, as a rule?
14 A. We arrived only when we received information that something had
15 happened. And in that time, the citizens or whoever happened to be there
16 would try to help those people by taking them to the hospital.
17 Q. When you arrived on the spot, was the site already secured?
18 A. Sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
20 MS. CARTER: I'd asked for some specificity with regards to time.
21 He has referred to shelling incidents, sniping incidents, and now this
22 most recent question seems to be calling for a specific incidents, but
23 I'm not clear which is being referred to.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter, I thought the question still related
25 to general things. At line 25, page 11, he says:
1 "In relation to all these onsite investigations concerning the
2 shellings, and I asked you yesterday about the sniper incident, and you
3 will confirm that you always arrived on the spot when victims had already
4 been taken to hospital or unfortunately to the morgue as the case may be
5 as a rule."
6 The answer was:
7 "We arrived only when we received information that something had
8 happened. And in that time the citizens or whoever happened to be there
9 would try to help those people."
10 I'm not quite sure which --
11 MS. CARTER: My concern actually came in in page 12, line 8, when
12 it says: "When you arrived on the spot, was the site already secured,"
13 implying a specific point in time, as opposed to generalities before.
14 That's why I didn't object to the initial portion, but seems to imply a
15 specific time and place.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think read in the context of the previous
17 response, to me it sounds like it's still general. When you arrive at a
18 spot, whatever spot it is, you find the place secured already.
19 Anyway, Mr. Lukic, can you help us. Were you being specific to a
20 specific place or were you being general?
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was general,
22 referring to the witness's experience with regard to onsite
24 Q. So what is the task of those who are securing the spot before the
25 and after the onsite investigation when an incident occurs, what do they
2 A. Well, if it's a case of shelling, the policemen on the ground,
3 one or two of them were duty-bound to make sure that no one can enter, no
4 citizens, members of the general public, can enter the area where the
5 explosion had taken place unless someone had to be given first aid or
6 transported to hospital.
7 Q. In your experience, in relation to the investigations you
8 attended and the information you received when an incident happened, how
9 much time would elapse from the point of time when an incident occurred,
10 to the point of time when security was put in place?
11 A. It would all depend on how intensive the shelling had been,
12 whether it was intensive or not. If a single shell landed, people who
13 were nearby would usually run to the place to help the wounded and then
14 they would, themselves, take shelter until they could be sure that the
15 shelling had stopped. If the shelling did not stop, they didn't leave
16 their shelters.
17 Q. But I was asking you about security.
18 A. Well, policemen were also wounded and killed in those places.
19 Q. But can you tell us how much time on the average elapsed from the
20 time an incident took place to the time when security was put in place?
21 A. Well, I can't be precise about that. There were situations when
22 it was not possible. It could be five minutes later or half an hour
24 Q. Did it sometimes happen that there would be shelling and you
25 would receive information that the shell had not caused any damage or any
1 casualties, and in that case would you not go to the spot at all?
2 A. Well, it's not possible for a shell to land without causing any
3 damage. It could happen that there were no casualties, but all shells
4 that landed were recorded. It was always recorded at what time and place
5 a shell had exploded and whether or not there had been injured persons.
6 Q. But sometimes shell fragments, pieces of shrapnel would not be
7 taken for analysis; is that correct?
8 A. Whenever a team was established to carry out an onsite
9 investigation, the traces had to be preserved and parts of the shell had
10 to be taken.
11 Q. But were there any cases of shelling where a team did not arrive
12 on the spot where the shell had landed?
13 A. Yes, there were.
14 Q. In your previous statements in relation to the Markale II
15 incident, as this was not within your competence, you said that in spite
16 of this, you went there because somebody had told you, one of your
17 superiors had told you to go and see if you could help. I may have
18 misinterpreted your reply, but could you clarify this, please?
19 A. I'll explain once more how it came about that we went to help.
20 At that time, we were having breakfast and we had actually just finished
21 breakfast and were on our way to the police station. We heard the
22 explosion. We did not know where it had taken place. When we got to the
23 police station, the duty officer told us that a shell had exploded in
24 front of the market and that there were many people who had been killed.
25 He ordered that all available vehicles, we had two or three
1 available at the time, that the drivers should go there to help transport
2 the injured. And the rest of us who did not have vehicles also went down
3 there so that we could offer assistance if it was needed.
4 Q. When you arrived there, all the injured had already been taken
5 away; is that right?
6 A. No, when I arrived in the vicinity near the cathedral from where
7 you could see all this, some of the people who had been injured had been
8 taken away, some who had been killed had not been taken away yet; they
9 were still there. Our assistance was no longer required, and we returned
10 to the station.
11 Q. Did a team arrive to carry out an onsite investigation? Did you
12 see them?
13 A. I did not see any team because I went back to the police station.
14 Q. Did you see representatives of UNPROFOR arriving?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you agree with me that there was no official decision by the
17 authorities of the Federation either of the city of Sarajevo
18 of the army prohibiting people gathering in public places?
19 A. It is possible there may have been a decision prohibiting
20 gatherings, but it would not have been possible to comply with it,
21 because that part of the street, Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, was the
22 only street people could take and the only place where they could buy
24 Q. Well, that was not my question. In your statement which is part
25 of the record here --
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] and, Your Honours, that's
2 Exhibit 51937.
3 Q. You said the police in Sarajevo
4 public places, that's what it says in your statement. I'm asking you
5 whether there was such a decision in place because that's what it says in
6 your statement.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1937. It's the statement made on the
9 22nd of November, 1995. It's part of the 92 ter package.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We can see on the screen the statement in question. This is on
13 page 3 of the B/C/S version, and I'm asking you only this, the fact that
14 I read in your statement the sentence starts with the following words:
15 "Since the police in Sarajevo placed a ban on public gathering,"
16 this is what it says in your statement which remains unchanged. And I'm
17 asking you whether there was a ban, a police ban on public assembly?
18 That's the only thing I'm asking.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to reference a paragraph, Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] paragraph 15, first sentence.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it says here that the police
22 in Sarajevo
23 places, I can't remember whether there was an official decision of the
24 authorities to issue such a ban. However, from our superior officers, we
25 received a task to warn people to leave such places as quickly as
1 possible and not to expose themselves to any further danger from
2 shelling. However, in those parts, it was very difficult to implement
3 because those were the only places where they could buy food. One street
4 that was protected from views they thought and I thought as well that I
5 was safe, that I would not be injured or killed.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Because the buildings around are high-rise buildings, wouldn't
8 that be the primary reason why you felt that way?
9 A. The buildings were not high-rise buildings there. They were two
10 or three storeys high. They -- this is the old part of the town.
11 However, it was well protected from views.
12 Q. In the old part of the city, did you know where the BiH Army
13 facilities were?
14 A. There are no army facilities in the old part of the city.
15 Q. Do you know that the BiH Army used civilian facilities as their
17 A. No.
18 Q. You never heard that members of the BiH Army were billeted in
19 schools and kindergartens?
20 A. In that part there are neither kindergartens or nursery schools.
21 Q. But you did hear that members of the BiH army were billeted in
22 such buildings?
23 A. I worked in the municipality known as Stari Grad, the old city,
24 and the only two kindergartens in the territory of our municipalities had
25 been torched or burned from shelling at the very beginning of the war.
1 One of such kindergartens was in the vicinity of council house or a town
2 hall, and it was completely destroyed so that it could not serve any
3 purpose. And there was another very small kindergarten in the street
4 called Logadinor [phoen], at least that's what it was called at that
5 time. And it could not accommodate more than ten children.
6 Q. Do you know that members of the BiH Army also used shops and
7 stores as their locations?
8 A. Stores and shops were impossible to use for that purpose. Those
9 were very small rooms, especially in Stari Grad municipality where all
10 the houses are really tiny.
11 Q. Yesterday in answering my learned friend's question, you said,
12 and this is how I understood it, when you were serving in the JNA, you
13 completed training to become a platoon commander, did I understand you
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you attend the school for reserve officers?
17 A. It was the centre for training of state border patrol units.
18 Q. Where?
19 A. In Banja Luka.
20 Q. But you never attended a school for reserve officers?
21 A. I joined the military as a foot soldier, then I served as a
22 member of the artillery crew. That was the way it was done. I worked on
23 the 72-millimetre mortar. I became private 1st class after that.
24 Q. That's what you told us.
25 A. This was not officially the school for reserve officers. The
1 schools for reserve officers in the JNA were well defined.
2 Q. And you didn't receive the rank of sergeant in the military?
3 A. No, no, I became corporal.
4 Q. Do you know what the 122-millimetre mortar range is?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Before you joined the police in 1992, you were a technician and
7 head of shift in Hydrogradina?
8 A. Yes, in Hydrogradina. Yes, Hydrogradina was the name of the
9 company where I worked.
10 Q. And you never came in touch with any weaponry when you were
11 working at Hydrogradina; isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: Could the Court please produce a document, because I
14 intend to put to the witness some questions about the incident that took
15 place in December. P415. In B/C/S I'm looking for page 5, and in
16 English I believe it's page 2.
17 Q. Very well. This was shown to you yesterday. As a member of this
18 team you were assigned together with another colleague of yours to
19 constitute a team on behalf of the police station Stari Grad; is that
20 correct? You can find that under numbers 9 and 10?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce
23 page -- the following page in both versions of the document. The
24 following page in English as well, please.
25 Q. And we can see in this document that about 11 citizens provided
1 statements, but you did not participate in taking the statements from any
2 of these citizens that spoke about this incident.
3 A. I can't remember. I don't think so.
4 Q. Do you remember whether UNPROFOR members were in that place when
5 the onsite inspection was carried out?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. You were not authorised to provide any estimates about the type
8 of ammunition that was found on the spot, that was not within your
9 purview, was it?
10 A. No, not officially.
11 Q. You were not a ballistics expert, and you did not have any
12 experience with ballistics expertise?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You were not authorised, nor did you ever provide any estimates
15 with regard to the direction and the type of projectiles involved in any
16 of the incidents?
17 A. In the official notes that we drafted, we could only mention that
18 the projectile had arrived from this or that direction.
19 Q. I'm now going to read back to you part of your testimony in the
20 Dragomir Milosevic case.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not part of the
22 92 ter package. This is on page 3729 of that transcript of Mr. Dozo 's
23 testimony in that case. I have downloaded this from the court database.
24 Q. Do you remember that at the end of your testimony in the
25 Dragomir Milosevic case, Judge Harhoff put some questions to you with
1 regard to what you did during that December incident?
2 A. Yes, I remember some explanations.
3 Q. The question was as follows, and it is on page 3729, line 8: [In
5 "Were you authorised to make determination as to the type and
6 practice and use in the shell incidents?"
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. -- we don't have the benefit of that
8 copy, I'm not quite sure you are being quoted correctly on the
9 transcript. Are you able to give us copies of that?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have single hard copy,
11 Your Honours. I'm going to read again:
12 "Well, were you authorised to make determination as to the type
13 of projectile used in shell incident?"
14 Your answer? Do remember your answer? Do you remember having
15 answered that?
16 A. If that's what you are reading, then I suppose I did.
17 Q. And then on the same page, 3729, line 13:
18 "The direction of fire was established by the expert who was a
19 member of the investigation team. It wasn't my role to do so. My task
20 was to assist them, or rather, to carry out orders given by investigating
21 judge. When pieces of shell were found, we were to be -- we were to
22 secure the area around the spot where the incident took place."
23 [Interpretation] You said this under oath, do you remember? Do
24 you still adhere by what you said at the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And now page 3731, line 1, a question put to you by
2 Mr. Tapuskovic and Milosevic's counsel:
3 "During the investigation is it true that you were not sure
4 whether the shell was fired from a gun, or was it any other type of gun?"
5 [Interpretation] Your answer:
6 [In English] "I did not conduct this investigation. It was done
7 by the investigating judge. I was neither authorised, nor did I have
8 experience to qualify or to categorized the type of the shell. I didn't
9 know what kind of shell was involved."
10 [Interpretation] Do you remember having said that?
11 A. I suppose so.
12 Q. You adhere by that today?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for the
15 witness, thank you very much, Mr. Dozo.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
17 Any re-examination, Madam Carter?
18 MS. CARTER: Briefly Your Honour.
19 Re-examination by Ms. Carter:
20 Q. I'd like to focus down on the site involving Dervisa Selmanovic,
21 you were asked quite a bit of questioning yesterday and as well as the
22 beginning of this morning in relation to the sniping incident that took
23 place there. In yesterday's transcript you'd indicated that "the times
24 were dangerous, it was dangerous to live there." And you were referring
25 to Zaima Sarca Street, I believe is the pronunciation of that. Can you
1 please describe for the Court what was the reality for the civilians who
2 were living in that neighbourhood?
3 A. In a nutshell, it was impossible to live there.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this question does not
6 arise from my cross-examination. If the witness mentioned anything, this
7 was still not within the context of my cross-examination, and the witness
8 is now trying to testify about things that do not arise from my
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
11 MS. CARTER: Frankly, Your Honour, it's at page 4551, line 21,
12 which is precisely within the cross-examination of Defence counsel from
13 yesterday's transcript, so I'd ask to explore this further.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have no access to page 4551. Let's see if we
15 can get it. I am afraid my pages are still numbered 1 to 96.
16 MS. CARTER: I actually have page 90, line 2, from yesterday's
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe Ms. Carter could read the
19 question back to us.
20 MS. CARTER: I'm happy to do so. The question, it was in the
21 context of asking this witness why he was not interviewing all the
22 witnesses that saw this sniping take place, and the question starting at
23 line 19 was:
24 "Did you try in the meantime to go and look up her neighbours and
25 ask for their opinion and information?"
1 "A. They did not reside there, not all of them resided there at
2 the time. The times were dangerous. It was dangerous to live there.
3 "So you didn't go to Sedrenik once again to check on her?
4 "The uniform police were in charge of that, and we go on from
6 Sorry, I apparently speak very quickly.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So, yeah, if I understand you, you are following
8 up the statement that the times were dangerous; it was dangerous to live
10 MS. CARTER: Correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you still standing by your objection?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Sir, could you please describe for the Court what was the reality
16 for the civilians that lived in that neighbourhood?
17 A. I can explain, and I can share with you what happened when we
18 went to the site of an incident where there had been shooting. We had to
19 enter the house through a window, climbing a ladder, because sniping
20 fired from Spicasta Stijena was such that it was impossible to enter some
21 of the houses in the normal way, through the door.
22 People normally came back to their houses in the evening, in the
23 evening hours, and they would leave them very early in the morning while
24 it was still dark. The then civilian protection would patrol the exposed
25 areas during the night, and they would try and protect the areas exposed
1 to sniping fire by extending wire and placing bed sheets or blankets,
2 hanging those from the wires in order to block the line of sight to the
3 snipers that were on Spicasta Stijena.
4 A lot of the population of Sedrenik had moved out to the safer
5 parts of the town. Every time we had to carry out an onsite inspection
6 in Sedrenik, we were exposed to a great danger, and there was an imminent
7 risk that we would not come back alive from such expeditions.
8 Q. Defence counsel yesterday also questioned you in regards to the
9 investigations that took place in that area. And you indicated at the
10 time that you could not give another specific name to a sniping incident.
11 But in your answer that you just gave, you seem to imply that there were
12 a number of investigates performed, can you please estimate for the court
13 how many investigations were performed in that area.
14 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were a lot. Sniping,
15 fire and shelling happened every day. There was no single day when
16 somebody was not hurt or killed in Sedrenik.
17 Q. Now you are talking about that daily activity, and we see in
18 P1940, and that's the statement of Ms. Selmanovic, that she said that not
19 only did the bullet that hit her get fired that day, but there's also
20 another 20 to 30. You indicated yesterday on top of that when you
21 arrived several days later to perform the onsite investigation, you were
22 coming under fire yet again and taking shelter behind a house.
23 When you are talking about sniping, are you talking about a
24 single bullet fired at a single person or something more aggressive?
25 A. It rarely happened that one single bullet was fired from
1 Spicasta Stijena. Very often, if not all the time, sniping activity
2 involved a person firing from Spicasta Stijena on anything that he could
3 see moving about.
4 Q. Who controlled Spicasta Stijena?
5 A. From the moment when the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 started, the Spicasta Stijena was under the control of the Serbian side.
7 Q. Were there any other lines of sight or lines of fire into
8 Sedrenik outside of Spicasta Stijena?
9 A. Sniping activity against Sedrenik could come only from
10 Spicasta Stijena, whereas shells could have come from all parts of town
11 which were under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.
12 Q. Why do you say that the only area that sniping could come from
13 was Spicasta Stijena?
14 A. Spicasta Stijena is the only elevation above Sedrenik, on the
15 left was Grdonj, and behind Grdonj were the lines of the army of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. From that side you could neither approach or see
17 Sedrenik. And the right-hand side is a forest called Alipashino Brdo.
18 And from there, Sedrenik is not visible. There is no clear line of
19 vision from there towards Sedrenik.
20 MS. CARTER: Thank you, sir. I thank you for your time as well
21 as your testimony. I pass the witness.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Carter.
23 Thank you, very much, Mr. Dozo, that brings us to the end of your
24 testimony. We thank you for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are
25 now excused. You may stand down, and will you please travel well back
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Carter.
5 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time Ms. Bolton will be taking
6 the next witness, and I would asked to be excused from the courtroom.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Madam Carter.
8 Madam Bolton. Would it be an appropriate time, Madam Bolton, or
9 would you want to start?
10 MS. BOLTON: I would actually like to perhaps move up where
11 Ms. Carter is. So if we could take the recess now that would be a
12 convenient time.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and
14 come back at 4.00. Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Madam Bolton, you can explain the protective measures to the
1 MS. BOLTON: Yes, for the record, there are protective measure
2 that is were granted in a previous proceeding and are continued therefore
3 under Rule 75, and that consists of image distortion, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Bolton.
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, I'm just having a bit of trouble hearing
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have a problem hearing me?
8 MS. BOLTON: I was, but that seem to have corrected it.
9 Thank you.
10 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
13 Q. Mr. Sabljic, you speak both B/C/S and fairly good English; is
14 that fair to say?
15 A. Yes, it's a fair statement.
16 Q. And I will just remind you then, that notwithstanding the fact
17 that you may understand or think you understand my question in English,
18 it's important that you wait for the translation. Okay?
19 A. Yes, I understand that.
20 Q. Sir, if you could just indicate to the court what your
21 educational background is.
22 A. During the war, if that's what you are asking me, is it?
23 Q. No, I'm asking about your formal education.
24 A. I have a degree in engineering.
25 Q. What kind of engineering?
1 A. I have a degree from the Sarajevo University
2 and the degree I obtained was in General engineering.
3 Q. And did your studies include any studies in the law of physics,
4 and the laws of physics?
5 A. Of course, those were compulsory subjects in my junior year,
6 physics, mathematics.
7 Q. Were you residing in Sarajevo
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. And did you continue to reside in Sarajevo after the hostilities
10 broke out?
11 A. Yes, I continued to reside there.
12 Q. And when the hostilities first broke out, at that time was the
13 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina an organised army in existence at that
15 A. At first when the conflict broke out, it was the so-called
16 Territorial Defence, the army was established only later.
17 Q. And did you participate in the Territorial Defence at all?
18 A. I did. I was a member of the Territorial Defence, which bore the
19 name of our local commune fraternity and unit in new Sarajevo.
20 Q. How many months or years were you part of that organisation?
21 A. From April or the end of April 1992, to July 1993.
22 Q. And what happened in July 1993?
23 A. In July 1993, I joined the Ministry of the Interior as a member
24 of the security services centre in Sarajevo.
25 Q. And what was your position?
1 A. My position was an expert for mechanical traces and ballistics at
2 the security services centre in Sarajevo
3 Q. And prior to taking up that position, had you had any experience
4 in ballistics?
5 A. None.
6 Q. Did you receive any training?
7 A. As soon as I joined the police, I had a nine-and-a-half-month
8 training. My mentors were my senior colleagues who had already worked as
9 ballistics experts and experts for mechanical tracers in the same
11 Q. And who were those senior colleagues primarily?
12 A. The late Borislav Stankov, the late Zlatko Medjedovic, and the
13 late Hamdija Cavcic.
14 Q. And when you are using the term "late," take it you mean that
15 they are all now deceased?
16 A. Yes, of course, yes. Unfortunately, they died after the war.
17 Q. And the training that you received, then, you indicated you had
18 so the mentors, was there any element that was more traditional method,
19 like reading of books or study materials?
20 A. I can say that the training was a bit out of the ordinary and
21 faced with the unfortunate circumstances, I had the good fortune of
22 learning much faster than one would under normal circumstances. It was
23 already wartime, and I just had to acquire knowledge much faster.
24 Q. And when you are talking about mentoring, what does that mean?
25 A. That means that my senior colleagues were also my trainers and my
1 mentors, and I had to take my final exam before them as members of a
2 commission which consisted of several other people as well.
3 Q. And did you pass that, I don't know if it was oral or written,
5 A. It consisted of two parts, one was oral another was written, of
6 course I did.
7 Q. Did you have occasion during the war, then, to be involved in any
8 investigations relating to sniping incidents?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. I want to ask you if you had any involvement in investigations
11 where trams were hit by sniper bullets?
12 A. Yes, on several occasions.
13 Q. Could you describe for the Court, first, when you got a call to,
14 I take it, participate in an investigation of a tram sniping incident,
15 what was the purpose of the investigation? What were you trying to
17 A. Our team consisted of several people, and the role of a
18 ballistics expert in the team was to ascertain the direction from which
19 the bullet came and the type of the projectile. And that was the main
20 task of the ballistics expert on any team if this is what you are asking
22 Q. Yes, thank you, sir.
23 Could you walk us through the methodology that you would follow
24 then from the moment, I guess, you would arrive on site to investigate a
25 tram incident?
1 A. Usually we insisted on the tram remaining in the place where the
2 incident happened. However, due to the circumstances that was often
3 impossible. However, our part of the job was, as I've already told you,
4 to ascertain the direction from which the bullet or bullets came, and to
5 try and ascertain the type of the projectile. And the rest of the team
6 worked on collecting evidence and marking the traces on the spot and the
7 consequences that were due to the action of one or several projectiles.
8 The whole work was led by an investigative judge because without his
9 order, our team and our colleagues from the crime prevention police would
10 not have been able to access the scene of the incident.
11 Q. You've told us that the purpose was to try -- or one of the
12 purposes was to try to ascertain the direction from which the bullet or
13 bullets came. So what evidence would you look at to assist you in making
14 that determination?
15 A. The main thing was to determine the positions of the damage on
16 the tram or car or vehicle, to identify entry holes and possibly exit
17 holes, and try to establish using simple methods, the direction from
18 which the shot was fired.
19 Q. Okay. Is there a method you used, or how would you distinguish
20 what was an entry hole or an exit hole through a tram?
21 A. In many books, and in the ballistics literature about the traces
22 left by fire-arms, it's easy to determine what entry and exit holes look
23 like. You look at the traces on the materiel. You look at the direction
24 in which fibres are bent and so on. And to determine the angle, we used
25 a very simple method using a metal cube, a small metal cube or rod, and a
1 rope. This was part of the equipment carried by forensic technicians,
2 and we would then link up the entry and exit holes, thus determining from
3 where the bullet had come because we wanted to establish the direction
4 from which the projectile had come, and also the type of projectile or
6 Q. Okay. Just continuing or picking up on what you are saying about
7 determining the direction then, you are talking about using this pole and
8 rope, I take it, to connect the entrance and the exit holes, how does
9 that then extrapolate into knowing the direction of fire?
10 A. We used that to establish the angle of entry. This is classical
11 geometry. You push a tube through the entry hole, you stretch the string
12 to the place where the bullet ended its trajectory, the exit hole, and
13 theoretically, you can extend this using an optical device to infinity.
14 And then that makes it possible to determine the area from which the
15 bullet arrived. You use mathematical methods to calculate the angle.
16 Q. When you say you use an optical device to stretch possibly to
17 infinity, which direction would you be pointing your optical device
18 relative to the entrance hole?
19 A. Well, of course in the direction of the entry hole, you would
20 look from the inside towards the outside.
21 Q. Okay. When you talked about looking at the damage to the tram,
22 you indicated that you would look for entry holes, and you said possibly
23 exit holes. Can you explain why there wouldn't be necessarily an exit
25 A. Sometimes a bullet would stay. If you are asking me about the
1 tram, it would get stuck. It would get stuck against a metal sheet. It
2 couldn't pierce, for example, and then we would not be able to find an
3 exit hole.
4 Q. Okay. You indicated it would be preferable when you did these
5 investigations if the tram were still in the place where it had been
6 struck, you said that wasn't always possible. Why wasn't it always
8 A. Because of the precision with which the place from which the shot
9 was fired had to be established. It would have been a good thing for the
10 vehicle to return to the place where it had been hit. However, in most
11 cases because the tram driver was in a panic, or because the shooting
12 went on, or because of other circumstances, the tram would continue
13 driving, and we would probably arrive -- most often we would arrive on
14 the scene once the shooting had already stopped, in order to avoid
15 unnecessary casualties.
16 Q. Sir, in cases where the tram had been moved then, was it possible
17 for you to take into consideration the movement of the tram when you were
18 trying to ascertain the origin or direction of fire?
19 A. By the kind of traces on the tram, and the statements made by the
20 people involved in the event, we were able to establish the direction,
21 but never the precise spot from which the bullet had been fired. So we
22 would say it had come from the general area of so and so. Since the
23 vehicle had already moved, we could not pin-point the precise feature.
24 We could only say that the bullet had come from the south-east or the
25 south-west, or it would all depend on the position of the tram. You
1 could say it had come from above or from left to right and so on.
2 Q. And how generally would you know if the tram had been located --
3 sorry, had been moved subsequent to the firing? How would you know where
4 it had been at the time of the firing?
5 A. Based on the statements given by the tram driver and the evidence
6 collected by our colleagues in the crime investigation police. Also from
7 the passengers in the tram, those who had been wounded, and so on.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MS. BOLTON: I wonder, Madam Registrar, if we could please bring
10 up 65 ter 8600. And, Madam Usher, the witness is going to need to use
11 the magic pen.
12 Q. First, I should ask if you recognise the area depicted in the
13 photograph before you, sir.
14 A. Yes, it's parts of the city of Sarajevo.
15 Q. And is the tram line visible on that photograph?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Just using your finger, can you point out where the tram line
18 runs. Sorry, I guess you have to use the pen to show where the tram line
20 A. And so on.
21 Q. And what is the name of that street that it runs on?
22 A. Now it's called Zmaja od Bosne. It used to be called Vojvode
23 Putnika and in the opposite direction coming from town, it's called
25 Q. And in terms of geography, is this line -- does this run
1 basically east west, north south, some other direction?
2 A. East west.
3 Q. Can you assist me in identifying some of the buildings in is this
4 photo, please. First, do you see the Marshal Tito barracks?
5 Sorry, I didn't get a translation of whatever you just said?
6 A. The street?
7 Q. No, the barracks buildings for the Marshal Tito?
8 A. These, this is the barracks, this whole compound here. That's
9 the barracks.
10 Q. Could you write the initials MTB on what you've circled?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. B as in --
13 A. MTB
14 Q. Thank you. And do you see the school of technology on this
15 photograph? If so, could you mark it with the initial T?
16 A. Yes, I can see it. This is it.
17 Q. Okay. How about the museum of the revolution; is that visible?
18 Could you circle it, if it is.
19 A. Yes, it's visible. Here it is.
20 Q. Could you put an M there, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Is there something called the earth museum visible?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Could you put an E there, please?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. There is a street made reference to at some parts of this case
2 called, and I apologise in advance for the pronunciation,
3 Lenjinova Street
5 A. In part here in front of these sky scrapers here.
6 Q. Okay. And are you familiar with a building called the Metalka
7 building? If so, could you circle it. Could you write the initials MET.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MS. BOLTON: I wonder if this could please be tendered as an
10 exhibit, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence.
12 May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1944, Your Honours.
14 MS. BOLTON: If we could just leave it on the screen for a
15 moment, please.
16 Q. There are four high-rise buildings on the far left side of the
17 screen right by where you've indicated Lenjinova Street is. In what area
18 or part of town are those four high-rises situate?
19 A. Grbavica.
20 Q. And how about the Metalka building, what part of town is it
21 situated in?
22 A. That's Grbavica to, the beginning of Grbavica.
23 Q. And during the conflict, which army controlled Grbavica?
24 A. The Army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Thank you. I want to turn, now, sir -- I'm going to be asking
1 you about two specific investigations into tram sniping incidents. And
2 for the record, to assist the Court, the first one we have on the
3 indictment as B8. It's an incident from the 23rd of November, 1994.
4 MS. BOLTON: Could we have, please, 65 ter 08612. And if the
5 witness can also be shown page 2 of the B/C/S version, please.
6 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
7 A. That is a report drawn up by my colleagues from the crime police,
8 Dragan Miokovic and Kemal Buco.
9 Q. Did you have the opportunity during your proofing session earlier
10 this week to review this document?
11 A. Yes, you showed it to me; I have seen it.
12 Q. And did it accurately reflect your investigation and your
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. BOLTON: If we could go back to page 1, please,
16 Madam Registrar.
17 Q. Looking at the first page, we see both your name, sir, and the
18 name of Zlatko Medjedovic, was that one of the gentlemen you mentioned
19 earlier as one of your mentors?
20 A. Yes, we usually went out as a team, Zlatko or Boro or Hamdija,
21 and I, of course.
22 Q. And in terms of the direction of the tram in relation -- that it
23 was travelling regards to this incidents, sir, which direction was it
25 A. It was travelling from the centre towards the new part of town.
1 Q. Would that be eastbound or westbound, sir?
2 A. From the east towards the west, so westbound.
3 Q. And what was your understanding in relation to this incident in
4 terms of where the tram had been situated at the time the sniping began?
5 A. According to our information, it was between the technical school
6 and the Marshal Tito barracks.
7 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could go to, I guess, a blank copy of
8 65 ter 8600.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, I suppose you are still coming back
10 to this document on the screen?
11 MS. BOLTON: I will be coming back to it, yes.
12 Q. Can you just assist us in terms of - I'm sorry, Madam Usher, I'll
13 need your assistance again - perhaps drawing a circle around the area
14 that is denoted as being between the technical school and the barracks?
15 A. This entire area here.
16 Q. And do you --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand. Is that entire area between
18 the barracks and the technical school?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and that was the route the
20 tram was taking.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but the question was no to show the route
22 that the tram was taking but to circle the area that is between the
23 barracks and the technical school.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, that would be it.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was your question, Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: That was my question.
2 Q. Just so we are clear, sir, can you remind us again of where the
3 technical school was.
4 A. This is the technical school.
5 Q. Can you put a T in that circle, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And can you remind us again of where the barracks extend to and
9 A. The barracks extends from here.
10 Q. So the area you first circled seems to extend from the far east
11 side of the technical school to the most westernly point on the
12 Marshal Tito barracks, then when his honour posed the question again, you
13 circled the smaller area. And I don't understand what the smaller area
14 is supposed to indicate.
15 A. The smaller circle is the precise area in between the technical
16 school and the Marshal Tito barracks.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, do you understand what the bigger
18 area is supposed to signify?
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. Maybe I can rephrase the question, sir.
21 Does one of those two areas that you've drawn on the map, does
22 that designate where you understood the tram had been located at the time
23 it was hit by the sniper bullets?
24 A. According to eye-witness statements, and the statement of the
25 driver, he said the tram was somewhere in the bigger circle that I first
2 Q. So I want to be able to mark this so that it's understandable
3 later. The bigger circle then, sir, if you could -- could you write the
4 word "tram" on the bigger circle.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And in the box you drew above to show the Marshal Tito barracks,
7 again could you mark it with MTB
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Okay. Are the -- within this photo, how many tram stops, if any,
10 are actually visible?
11 A. Two.
12 Q. Okay. Could you mark where those stops are located, please.
13 Could you use the numbers 1 and 2.
14 A. Number 1 is near the technical school. And number 2 is at the
15 Marshal Tito barracks.
16 Q. We've heard some evidence in these proceedings about a stop
17 called Marindvor. Where is it relative to this photo, if it's not
19 A. It's on this side here.
20 Q. Could you put a 3 there.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have a 2 anywhere?
24 MS. BOLTON: 2 is way over on the left side of the photo,
25 Your Honour, on top of the building. Do you see it?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 MS. BOLTON: Okay. I think we are done with the pen for now,
3 Madam Usher.
4 Q. In this -- if we could go back to 65 ter 8th 08612, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what do you want to do with
6 this one?
7 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I do wish to tender this as an exhibit,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
10 May it please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1945, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, I don't seem to remember
13 admitting the first 8600.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That's already an Exhibit P100, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it? No, no, the one marked by this witness
17 THE REGISTRAR: That was Exhibit P1944, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, thank you so much.
19 MS. BOLTON: If we can scroll down in both versions, please.
20 Thank you.
21 Q. Sir, can you tell us what, if any, damage you found to the tram
22 on examination that day?
23 A. Yes. You can find it in the report. We managed to detect that
24 in the first case it was just one bullet of an unknown calibre that
25 burst, leaving two bullet traces on the tram.
1 Q. What do you mean when you say the bullet burst?
2 A. Due to the impact against a hard surface, the bullet shattered,
3 fragmented, thus we could not find the whole of the bullet. We only
4 found fragments thereof.
5 Q. Okay. And what hard surface did it hit that caused it to
7 A. It was a metal plate in the tram, and as a result it fragmented.
8 Q. Where was that metal plate in the tram?
9 A. In this case it was inside the tram on the wall, on the interior
10 tram wall where the bullet hit. To be more precise, it was in the upper
11 right-hand side corner of the tram's window frame. You will find that in
12 the report.
13 Q. Okay. And which side of the tram would have been hit if this
14 tram -- we've already indicated was travelling westbound, would it be the
15 north or the south side of the tram where the damage was found?
16 A. As the tram was moving from the east to the west, if you are
17 looking from the driver's position, it came from the left-hand side of
18 the tram.
19 Q. If you are looking from the driver's position facing in the
20 direction in which you are travelling or facing the back of the tram?
21 A. As the tram moves, in the direction of the tram's movement, the
22 bullet came from its left-hand side.
23 Q. Okay. And were you able to make a determination in this case as
24 to the likely origin of the bullet that hit tram 263?
25 A. In this particular case, it was not possible to determine the
1 facility, but we were able to ascertain that it came from the
2 Sector South, from the area of Grbavica. We were not able to determine
3 the exact place, and I have already explained why. The tram had been
4 moved from the place where it was hit.
5 MS. BOLTON: Okay. And just so the record is clear, if we could
6 turn to the second page of the B/C/S version of this report and the
7 English version of this report, please.
8 Q. The tram we were just talking about was tram 263. And this page
9 of the report, sir, what tram number does it relate to?
10 A. Tram number 238.
11 Q. So there were actually two separate incidents that were
12 investigated and discussed in this report; is that fair?
13 A. Yes, because they took place in the course of the same day.
14 Q. Okay. I wonder if that could be marked as an exhibit, please,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
17 May it so marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1946, Your Honours.
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. Okay. Now, sir, to a second incident, which for the record is
21 scheduled incident B10 in these proceedings.
22 MS. BOLTON: And if we could have 65 ter 3412 up, please. I
23 should indicate, Your Honours, that the B/C/S version of Exhibit -- or of
24 65 ter 3412 includes all the pages, and the English translations are
25 actually found at different parts in 65 ter 3412.01 through .15 or .115,
1 and I'll be referring to the different 65 ter numbers as need be to
2 correspond to the English versions.
3 Q. If you could return your attention, sir, to the actual B/C/S
4 exhibit, can you tell us if you recognise that document?
5 A. Yes, I recognise the document.
6 MS. BOLTON: And if we could turn to page 2 in the B/C/S version,
7 please. Thank you.
8 Q. Is this a matter that you participated in the onsite
9 investigation in relation to, sir?
10 A. Yes. My name is also here.
11 Q. And did you have the opportunity during our proofing session
12 earlier in the week to review the entire B/C/S version of this document?
13 A. Yes, I've had an occasion to do that.
14 Q. Does the report accord with your recollection of the actual
15 investigation and your findings?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you tell us in relation to this incident, sir, and let us
18 know if you need to refresh your memory from the report, which direction
19 you understood this tram was travelling at the time it was struck?
20 A. This tram was moving from the direction of centre into the
21 direction of Novi Grad.
22 Q. And would that be then eastbound or westbound?
23 A. From east to west. Westbound.
24 Q. And again can you tell us where you understood this tram was
25 located at the time that it was struck by the sniper fire.
1 A. It just started moving from the tram station in front of the
2 Marshal Tito barracks in the direction of new Sarajevo, and that's the
3 moment when it was hit.
4 MS. BOLTON: If we could again bring up a blank version of 65 ter
5 8600, please. Sorry. Again, Madam Usher, if I could have your
6 assistance, please.
7 Q. Could you again just circle for us the area where you understood
8 the tram was located in relation to this incident when it was struck?
9 A. This is the place, the tram stop known as the Marshal Tito
10 barracks stop.
11 Q. Where is the -- is there a tram stop called the KMT tram stop?
12 Is that the same thing or something different?
13 A. It's one in the same. There's no other.
14 Q. And where did you receive your information about the location of
15 the tram in relation to this incident?
16 A. The key factor was the statement provided by the tram driver, but
17 there were also other eye-witnesses, you can find that in the official
19 Q. Okay. And with respect to this tram, were you able to make --
20 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, if we could tender that as an exhibit,
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't want to tell us what that circle is
23 called? You've been giving them names like MTB.
24 MS. BOLTON: Certainly, could you mark that, sir, as -- I want to
25 call it the tram stop. Are you able to write tram stop?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. The document is admitted.
4 May it please be given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1947, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. BOLTON: And if we could return - thank you, Madam Usher - to
8 65 ter 3412. And I'd like to go to page 4 of that document,
9 Madam Registrar. I understand that actually the exhibits, the English
10 copy is not in separate exhibits. So in the English version if you could
11 go back one page, please. Sorry, could you go forward two pages.
12 Forward one more page, please, in the English version. Thank you.
13 Q. In relation to this investigation, sir, were you able to make any
14 determination as to the likely origin or source of the sniper fire?
15 A. Yes, we managed to do that. There were several places where the
16 tram was damaged, so we determined that the projectile came from the
17 direction of Grbavica, the south-east direction in relation to the way
18 the tram was moving.
19 Q. And in relation to this incident, were you able to be any more
20 precise than saying that it had simply come from Grbavica?
21 A. In that particular case, we were able to determine that fire was
22 open from the Grbavica sector, and to be more precise, from the direction
23 of the high-rise building in the Novaljeva [phoen] street.
24 Q. Do you recall whether that conclusion would have been based
25 simply on the results of the ballistic examination or testimony from --
1 or statements from witnesses or both?
2 A. Both sources were relevant.
3 MS. BOLTON: And when we are talking about those buildings, if we
4 could go back to the last photograph we marked, which I think was
5 Exhibit, I think, P46 -- 1946.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are waiting for this, just to refresh my
7 memory, this is the incident in which the bullet is supposed to have
9 MS. BOLTON: I think you are think being another incident, I'm
10 not sure, Your Honour.
11 Q. Just to answer His Honour's question, sir, in relation to this
12 incident, if you recall, how many bullet marks were there found in the
14 A. Eight.
15 Q. And do you recall if all eight bullets were recovered from inside
16 the tram?
17 A. Only two because the others were stuck between the outer wall and
18 the inner wall of the tram's carriage.
19 Q. Only two, what do you mean by only two were what?
20 A. Two bullets had an entry and exit holes in the tram, which means
21 they pierced through both of the tram carriage walls and injured some of
22 the passengers.
23 Q. Before we get back to the photo, can you just explain, is it
24 possible for one bullet to injure more than one person?
25 A. It's possible, yes.
1 Q. And how is it possible?
2 A. In this particular case, given the short distance and high energy
3 that a bullet has, there were a lot of people in the tram, it was
4 crowded, the bullet will find it easy to pass through all the soft
5 tissues on its way until it hits the first firmer and stronger surface,
6 harder surface. So it is possible that one bullet inflicted wounds on
7 two or more people.
8 Q. Okay. When we are talking looking at the photograph that is back
9 in front of you about the high-rise buildings on Lenjinova Street, how
10 would the numbering go if we are indicating that the likely source of
11 fire was the fourth high-rise building, which one would be the fourth?
12 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Madam Usher. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll use number 4.
14 MS. BOLTON:
15 Q. Well, we have the photo on screen, I'm not sure if you can see on
16 this photo a location called the Vrbanja bridge. Is that visible on this
18 A. Vrbanja. This is the bridge?
19 Q. Could you put a V there, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you.
22 And would it be possible, sir, for bullets fired from the
23 Vrbanja bridge to reach the location of this tram at the time of the
24 sniping incident?
25 A. Impossible, there are so many obstacles to the tram stop, and the
1 tram stop is not visible from that place anyway.
2 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If a snap-shot could be taken of that
3 photograph, please, Your Honour, and be marked as an exhibit as well.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted.
5 May it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1948, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MS. BOLTON: Brief indulgence, please. Just with respect to the
9 report, Your Honour, I don't think there's any need to go back to at this
10 point. This would be 65 ter 3412. Could it be marked as an exhibit as
11 well, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
13 May it please be so marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1949, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. You had indicated in relation to this last incident we were
18 discussing, sir, that your service had determined that the likely source
19 of fire was that fourth high-rise building on Lenjinova Street in
20 Grbavica. Did you ever have occasion after the hostilities had ceased to
21 go to any of those high-rise buildings on that street?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. When was that done?
24 A. After the Dayton Accords, and the reintegration of Grbavica,
25 which was in February and March 1996.
1 Q. Okay. And were you there in a personal capacity or professional
3 A. It was on the order of the investigating judge for professional
4 reasons and also an order of the chief of the crime prevention police to
5 check out all those facilities for which there was reasonable grounds to
6 suspect that they served as firing positions during the war.
7 Q. Okay. And did you -- did you visit each of those four buildings?
8 A. Yes. Each of the four, but not every apartment. And also we
9 inspected the Metalka building.
10 Q. When you are talking about we, who else was with you?
11 A. Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic, Mr. Borislav Stankov, a member of the
12 crime police, a judge, and members of the police station Novo Sarajevo
13 given the fact that Grbavica falls under the jurisdiction of that police
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Bolton, in the answer to the previous
16 question, you said you said each of the four but not every apartment, and
17 also you inspected the what building?
18 MS. BOLTON: I believe he said --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Metalka building also in Grbavica.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you been shown the Metalka building in any
22 the be exhibits?
23 MS. BOLTON: Yes, he marked it on the very first map,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. So dealing first then with the four high-rise buildings we were
3 discussing, sir, can you tell us when you went into those buildings, what
4 did you locate?
5 A. At the higher floors of the buildings for which it could be
6 assumed that they served as firing positions during the war, we found
7 five or six apartments which had been redesigned to serve as sniper
9 Q. Can you describe what each of these -- firstly did the apartments
10 all look similar, or were they different setups?
11 A. All of these looked the same.
12 Q. What was the general setup then?
13 A. The general setup was as follows: Petition walls that divided
14 the rooms were partly pierced. The outer wall facing the streets of
15 Zmaja od Bosne and Marshal Tito, or rather the side across the Miljacka
16 river which was under the control of the BiH Army had a small opening.
17 And within each of the apartments, partition walls had been demolished
18 and openings had been made which were conical in shape so that the
19 sharp-shooter could fire from within the apartment in the depth of the
20 apartment where the opening was small. He would have a clear vision of
21 the enemy, and the enemy would have a very difficult time spotting the
23 Q. How many walls then would have separated the sniper from fire
24 coming into the building?
25 A. Are you referring to the perforated walls? If that's the case,
1 at least three, so that sniper shooter would be opening fire from the
2 third room in a row, behind the third wall in the room.
3 Q. Did you have occasion to look out through those openings that
4 you've described towards the tram tracks?
5 A. Of course, yes, it was a unique opportunity. I had never seen
6 anything of the kind before that. My senior colleagues Zlatko and Boro
7 actually provided explanation as to what that was all about.
8 Q. Okay. When you looked out from the position you believe the
9 sniper had taken, how much of the tram tracks could you see?
10 A. I could see the complete stretch from the Holiday Inn to the
11 school of science and mathematics, i.e., the high-rise that blocks the
12 view after that. And you could have that view from of the four high-rise
14 Q. Looking at the map that's still on the screen, is the school of
15 mathematics visible?
16 A. No, it isn't.
17 Q. Where would it be relative to what is visible?
18 A. It would be to the west of the barracks in the direction of
19 Novi Grad, the new part of town.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I can draw an arrow on the photo if you like.
22 Q. Okay. Why don't you do that, sir.
23 A. So it would be in this direction.
24 Q. Could you just write "math", m-a-t-h.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you, and could you circle for us the Holiday Inn.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And if you could just write an HI.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Okay. Were there any -- sorry, how many storeys up in these
6 buildings on average were these six apartments?
7 A. You mean how many floors did these high-rise buildings have? Is
8 that what you mean?
9 Q. You indicated that you had found -- you had hadn't examined every
10 apartment, but you had located approximately six apartments where you had
11 these -- which you believe to have been used by snipers. I'm just
12 wondering how many storeys up in the buildings those apartments were
14 A. They were all higher than ten floors.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they on different floors?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, I'm done.
18 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
19 Q. At this point in time is it possible for you remember exactly
20 what floor on which building the apartments were located?
21 A. Unfortunately, that's very difficult, they were all higher than
22 the 10th floor, but for me to say precisely, probably there is
23 documentation in the police.
24 Q. Okay. I just want you to mark one last thing on this diagram and
25 that is just to refresh the Court's memory as to which building is the
1 Metalka building. Could you again circle the Metalka building and write
3 A. Metalka, MET
4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Madam Usher. That's everything. Thank
6 Q. And you indicated earlier that you had the opportunity also to
7 perform a post-war inspection of this building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you find any apartments within that building that appeared to
10 have been used by snipers?
11 A. We didn't find that sort of shelter here.
12 Q. Again, were you able to go into every apartment in that building?
13 A. Not each and every one. Only some that we suspected might have
14 been used. The ones on the highest floors in particular.
15 MS. BOLTON: If a snap could be made of that, please,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence.
18 May it please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1950.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Would that be a convenient time?
22 MS. BOLTON: It would be, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a break and come
24 back a quarter to 6.00. Court adjourned.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
3 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Good afternoon, sir.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. I'm counsel Novak Lukic and on behalf of Mr. Perisic and his
11 Defence team, I will putting questions to you. You have testified before
12 this Tribunal on two occasions and you know that when we speak the same
13 language, there is a problem with interpretation. The interpretation has
14 to be on the record, so please, we must both try to make a pause between
15 question and answer so that everything gets interpreted.
16 I'll put a few questions to you about a topic broached by
17 Madam Bolton which has do with your career. And most especially in the
18 period when you were a member of the BH Army, as I'll be calling it. I
19 understood you to say in the course of your testimony, that in April 1992
20 you were in the Territorial Defence. We know that in the late spring and
21 early summer of 1992, the army of BH began to be formed, partly from the
22 structures of the Territorial Defence. When did you actually become a
23 member of the BH Army, approximately?
24 A. I entered the Territorial Defence toward the end of April 1992.
25 And when the army was established around June, our unit, which was called
1 the brotherhood and Unity Territorial Defence became part of the
2 Motarised Brigade. That was around June 1992 when the army came into
4 Q. And you remained there until the summer of 1993 when you
5 transferred to the police?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In this period, while you were a member of the BH Army, I read in
8 your statements that you were mostly at Hrasno Brdo, and Stup, at those
9 positions; is that right?
10 A. Yes. When the conflict first broke out, we assisted the police
11 forces in the area of the school of mechanical engineering,
12 Elektroprivreda, and then they sent us to Hrasno Brdo. And later on when
13 the motorised unit was established, our area of responsibility was Stup.
14 And that's where I was last with the army before I transferred to the
16 Q. I also think I found in your statements that while serving in the
17 army, you would spend a week at the positions and then a week at home; is
18 that correct?
19 A. In the beginning until we went to Stup, as I lived nearby, and
20 near the school of economics, we would spend one night on guard duty and
21 we would have one night off. However, when I went to Stup, which was
22 quite far away from my home, and the units became larger, we were
23 required to spend seven days at the positions, and then we would be off
24 for seven days, and we could go home if we could, so what you said is
1 Q. Are you aware whether the same situation obtained elsewhere in
2 the Defence of Sarajevo
3 the soldiers would be in a barracks far away from their homes?
4 A. I don't know that. I don't want to prejudge this issue because I
5 don't really no.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have on the screen
7 65 ter document 9244. It's a map and I see that you testified about this
8 at the previous trial, and I would like this Chamber also to get an idea
9 of this. So let's look at the map of Sarajevo.
10 Q. And while we are waiting for the map to come up, sir, do you
11 agree with me that during the war from 1992 until the Dayton Accords in
12 the Sarajevo
13 didn't shift much, they were rather static?
14 A. Yes, I agree with that.
15 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Usher, please, I need your assistance.
16 [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a little bit, please. Just a moment,
18 Q. Well, now, you said that you were aware that the BH Army held
19 positions on the hill of Zuc. Could you please mark the hill of Zuc with
20 a number 1. We can move through this part very quickly.
21 A. Here it is. I think that's it.
22 Q. Can you find Stup, the part where you were, the hill and village
23 of Stup, or the neighbourhood of Stup, more or less?
24 A. Around here, more or less. In the direction of Vlasici, the
25 Hladnjaca, that's the area our unit held.
1 Q. Could you mark it with a 2.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The neighbourhood of Mojmilo and Mojmilo hill was also a position
4 held by the BH Army. Could you mark that location approximately on this
5 map, please.
6 A. With a number 3?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I think this is it.
9 Q. Mount Igman
11 A. Here it is overlooking Ilidza.
12 Q. And those were also positions held by the BH Army?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On this map --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, let's take a larger map. Can
16 this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours, and then can we have a
17 blank map -- a copy of the map brought up again.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D69.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in, into the centre of
23 the map, please.
24 Q. Can you mark the location of Debelo Brdo here, more or less, with
25 a number 1.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this location was also held by the BH Army?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In front of this location towards the centre is the Jewish
5 cemetery; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you mark the Jewish cemetery, please, with a number 2.
8 A. I'll do my best. I think this is it.
9 Q. Do you agree with me that this location was held in part by the
10 BH Army and in part by the VRS?
11 A. I agree, it was more or less no-man's lands, I mean the cemetery
13 Q. And looking towards the centre of town, it leads towards the
14 Holiday Inn and the Zmaja od Bosne Street?
15 A. Well, standing at the Jewish cemetery and looking strait ahead,
16 it comes out on the Marindvor, that street. You can see all of if from
17 the Jewish cemetery. I didn't really have occasion to view it from up
18 there, but I assume that's how it is.
19 Q. You are aware that on Grdonj hill, there was also a position of
20 the BH Army, could you mark that with a 3, please, and Sedrenik.
21 A. Yes, Grdonj hill near Sedrenik. It looks down on Sedrenik on one
22 side on Rijeka
23 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. Just with respect to that last marking, and
24 it happened once on the previous map, my friend indicated that a position
25 was held by the BH Army and asked him to mark it without asking the
1 witness if he agreed that it was held bit BH Army. I think he corrected
2 it with respect to the last map. But with respect to the number 3 here,
3 I think he should be putting to the witness before he has him mark it on
4 the map whether he agrees it was in fact held by the BH Army.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I did ask the witness that.
7 It may be a discrepancy in interpretation, but I think the witness agreed
8 that all the positions I asked him about so far were held by the BH Army,
9 both on the previous map and on this one. Now I asked specifically about
10 the Jewish cemetery, asking whether this was the border-line belt of both
11 armies. I think that is how the witness understood my questions.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the record not absolutely clear, Mr. Lukic.
13 If you can just find out from the witness.
14 Sir, was Grdonj hill held by the BH Army?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Then the record is clear. Thank you
17 so much.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Tell me, on this map do you see Colina Kapa, and do you know who
20 held that position? If you do see it, please mark it with a number 4.
21 A. Yes, I do see Colina Kapa. I'm marking it with a 4. It was the
22 observatory, and it was held by the VRS. It was a prominent elevation,
23 whereas the lower Colina Kapa was held by the BH Army.
24 Q. You mentioned Grbavica, I won't ask you to mark it on this map,
25 but you said it was controlled by the VRS. Do you agree with me that
1 Grbavica was surrounded on three sides by positions of the BH Army?
2 A. Yes, I agree.
3 Q. I assume that in the course of the war you didn't go there, but
4 do you know that it was inhabited by civilians?
5 A. You mean Grbavica?
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes, of course. And when the reintegration took place, some of
8 them stayed behind and testified to this.
9 Q. Can you see Hrasnica on this map and tell us who held that
11 A. Hrasnica was held by the BH Army. Just a moment. But you can't
12 see it here on this map. It's behind Butmir.
13 Q. Can you just mark the direction with an arrow and mark it with a
14 number 5.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Yes. Very good.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this map also be admitted into
18 evidence, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted.
20 May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D70, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I'll go back now to the main topic of your testimony here. When
25 you were doing your part of the ballistics work, you had two tasks to the
1 best of my understanding, to give your opinion on the type of projectile
2 that had caused a certain incident; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And to give your opinion as to the direction from which the
5 projectile had arrived?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. As you told Ms. Bolton a little while ago, I understood you to
8 say that when you couldn't pin-point the precise location from which a
9 projectile had come, you would say it came from the general area of, in
10 order to be professional and correct in your opinion; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. In your part of the ballistics report, which was probably
13 included in a more comprehensive report, you never used the term from the
14 direction of the aggressor's position, because you couldn't actually
15 determine that with precision; is that correct?
16 A. We used the term from the area under the control of such and such
17 an army, based on objective findings, but we did not use the term
18 "aggressor" in our reports.
19 Q. I understand that. But in your reports, besides the direction,
20 you -- you could tell the direction, but you couldn't tell the distance;
21 is that right?
22 A. No, we did not establish the distance.
23 Q. And if in a certain direction there were positions, both of the
24 BH Army and the VRS, your conclusion that a projectile had arrived from
25 the territory of the VRS was based on witness statements, but not on
1 materiel traces; is that correct?
2 A. We would mention an area under the control of such and such an
3 army, only if we were sure there were no positions of the other army
4 nearby. Otherwise, we would just say that the projectile had come from
5 the north, south, east, or west, and so on. So we always made sure that
6 we avoided mistakes.
7 Q. So if there were two opposing armies there, you did not establish
8 anything else apart from the direction; is that correct?
9 A. Precisely so.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
11 Q. You said, and I have to check this with you, when asked by
12 Ms. Bolton today, you said that after completing your training, your
13 specialist training in ballistics, you passed an exam. That's what you
14 said; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'll read out to you part of the record of your testimony in the
17 Galic case. The date is the 11th of March, 2002. Page 5118, line 10:
18 "Q. Now, did you take any examinations in respect of your
19 training as a ballistic analyst?
20 [Interpretation] Your answer:
21 "A. No."
22 A. The question was probably whether before I joined the police I
23 had taken any exams during my university studies having do with
24 ballistics. And that is correct, I did not. I only passed the test
25 after my training. I had to get a certificate in order to be able to
1 sign my reports.
2 Q. All right. Now, we've clarified that point.
3 Did you find yourself in a situation or hear that members of
4 UNPROFOR who were there to conduct onsite investigations at the same time
5 as you, that they were prevented by the military authorities from
6 attending at an onsite investigation.
7 A. No, this is the first time I've heard of such a thing happening.
8 We insisted, we from the police, from the technical service, we insisted
9 that UNPROFOR be there and as to their being prevented, this is the first
10 I've heard of it.
11 Q. Did you hear that after the fragments were taken for analysis,
12 after they arrived in your laboratories or your institutions, UNPROFOR
13 asked to be given access to these fragments?
14 A. Yes, but only in cases of more serious shelling. However, as
15 regards sniping, nobody ever came to inquire about those.
16 Q. All right. Another general question. Do you share my opinion
17 that the media, especially the Serbian media, expressed the viewpoint
18 that certain incidents had been staged by the authorities of the
19 Muslim Federation. Do you remember such stories going around?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
21 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I'm not sure that I appreciate the relevance
22 of a question that starts, Do you share my opinion about something that
23 was reported by the Serbian media. I think he is asking the witness to
24 express an opinion about what was expressed in the Serbian media.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may have formulated my question
1 clumsily, and I'll reformulate it.
2 Q. Did you hear that in certain media, sometimes certain incidents
3 were represented as being staged?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this usually had to do with serious events, those that were
6 high-profile events in the media?
7 A. Precisely so.
8 THE COURT: Sorry, Madam Bolton.
9 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, again I don't quite understand the relevance
10 of this line of questioning with this witness. This seems to be just
11 talking about having heard rumours about what the Serb position was. I
12 don't know what time-frame we are talking about, if we are talking during
13 the war, if we are talking after the war. I just don't see how the
14 relevance of this line of questioning or the ability of this witness to
15 comment on it.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is highly relevant, and
18 the OTP frequently when putting forward their evidence asked witnesses
19 about the way events were represented in the media. And I am asking
20 about specific issues here, about onsite investigations, and I certainly
21 wish to put certain things to the witness that have to do with my case.
22 I think it's highly relevant for the Defence.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem, Mr. Lukic, is that you are not asking
24 him what he saw in the media and at what time. You are asking him if he
25 did hear that in the media -- I'll cite you to the correct, to the
1 specific question. That is page 65 line 15:
2 "Did you hear that in certain media sometimes certain incidents
3 were represented as being staged?" In fact, when Madam Bolton stood up,
4 I was about to intervene and ask the witness, from whom did he hear, at
5 what time in the history of the war did he hear, because -- I see you
6 frowning, but your question says, Did you hear? In other words, he
7 didn't see this misrepresentation in the media he only heard about it,
8 from whom did he hear it, and when did he hear it? That's the nub of the
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully understand, Your Honour. And
11 the gestures I was making were those of approval and understanding.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for explaining.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. My question, Witness, is the following: In relation to the
15 Markale II incident which took place in August 1995, are you aware that
16 it was represented in certain media as having been staged by members of
17 the authorities of the BH Federation?
18 A. Yes, but I learned about that only after the war.
19 Q. In relation to Markale I, an incident which took place in
20 February 1994 that similar -- similar ideas were being put forward in the
22 A. Yes, I learned about that after the war too. There was some
23 broadcasts on television about that. Not the Bosnian television, but the
24 Serbian television.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, just a moment, please.
1 Q. Did you have an occasion to follow Serbian media during the war?
2 A. When there was electricity, I was keen to hear the other side as
3 well, so I listened to the Crna radio programme, and I sometimes watched
5 Q. Let's just be very precise for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.
6 When you say Crna, this is the news agency of Republika Srpska; am I
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well. Let me ask you something about the two incidents that
10 you testified about. I have a couple of questions for you. The incident
11 B8, which happened on the 23rd of November, 1994.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce
14 Q. You've had an occasion to see the document, and what I concluded
15 from the testimonies in evidence before this court, and you tell me if
16 I'm right or wrong, is that the entry damage from the outer wall side of
17 the tram was not found, and based on that, it was concluded that the
18 bullet must have entered through an open window.
19 A. Yes, you will find it in the document.
20 Q. And in the interior part of the tram, and I suppose on the
21 opposite side from that window, two damaged areas were found, and based
22 on that, you concluded that the bullet must have been fragmented.
23 A. Yes, precisely.
24 Q. No projectile particle was found on the spot; is that correct?
25 A. No, you are not right. There were some particles which were
1 found, a cartridge was found, I think. So we couldn't actually, based on
2 the fragments that were found, we could not determine the type of the
4 Q. Based on the facts that you were seized with, pointing to just
5 one bullet, could you conclude that the first point of impact was the
6 interior wall of the tram or was -- and then hit the soft tissue of some
7 persons in the tram? Or was it the other way around, did the bullet
8 first go through the soft tissue of the passengers and then ended up on a
9 hard surface?
10 A. It first hit a hard surface. It was then fragmented, and the
11 fragments injured the two persons on the tram.
12 Q. And this thesis which was the basis of your conclusion, was it
13 corroborated by the injuries sustained by the individuals who were
14 wounded by the level of their entry and exit wounds?
15 A. We did not take into account those persons injuries because both
16 the tram and the persons had already been moved from the site of the
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a correction for in the
19 transcript. Page 68, line 21, after my question is actually the
20 witness's answer, which is not clearly indicated. Line 21 through line
21 23 where a new question starts.
22 Q. In any regular ballistics report about such a situation, one
23 should take into account the measurements of the entry and exit wounds on
24 the bodies of the injured persons; is that correct?
25 A. Under normal circumstances. However, it was very hard to
1 implement in the war.
2 Q. The onsite investigation of this incident as far as I could tell
3 was carried out in the tram garage, in the tram depot; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. We insisted on the tram being returned to
5 the site of the incident. However, the investigating judge was the team
6 leader, and he made the call.
7 Q. And under such circumstances, you established the point of
8 contact, i.e., the place where the tram was when it was hit based
9 exclusively on the eye-witnesses' statements; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Also in such situations since you did not have the exit point of
12 the bullet, and you were not able to draw a straight line from there to
13 the exit point, you could not establish the angle at which the bullet
14 entered the tram apparently through an open window?
15 A. You are right, we couldn't do that. We could not determine the
17 Q. Very well then.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the court produce the photo
19 under 65 ter 8600. Which is the photo that we have already looked at
20 with this witness.
21 Q. Could you please look at the photo again, and mark the Metalka
22 building. Please place number 1 next to it.
23 A. Shall I put a circle around it?
24 Q. Yes, please.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. The building next to it on the right-hand side, do you know whose
2 forces were there?
3 A. Nobody's.
4 Q. Could you please make a circle around there and put number 2 next
5 to it.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. When you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic case on page 4760,
8 did you say about this building as follows: The question was actually as
9 follows, line 8, page 4760: [In English]
10 "Q. Can you tell me behind this building, this building were
11 belonged to the BH Army?"
12 [Interpretation] You are answer was as follows: [In English]
13 "A. No, they were all under the control of VRS except for
14 the front one that resembled Metalka, and half of that building was
15 practically no-man's land. Both parties used to take position there, but
16 those were not permanent positions, as much as I was able to gather with
17 regard to the situation on the front."
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, can you look at page 70, lines 21 to
19 23, and check whether they represent exactly what you read out.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I shall read this again. [In English]
21 "Q. Can you tell me behind this building, this rectangle
22 building" --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton is on her feet. I don't know.
24 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. My concern is that the witness is being read
25 a portion of a transcript without really being taken, I think, to the
1 portion of the transcript that might give him an idea of the context.
2 It's a question out of the blue. His testimony was quite lengthy in
3 Dragomir Milosevic.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to clarify that in the
6 MS. BOLTON: If that's the practice in this court, then that's
7 the practice I'll follow, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the thing is I'm not sure whether -- or I am
9 not aware of one counsel -- a practice where one counsel tells another
10 how to ask questions. Now he is asking questions from what he sees, and
11 if you think that because of the context he is misrepresenting the
12 situation, it's for you when you re-examine to clarify the situation.
13 Otherwise, I'm not -- I don't see with on what ground you are standing
14 up, if you are objecting at all.
15 MS. BOLTON: My objection would be based on the practice at home
16 which is one where in fairness to the witness, if you think the context
17 isn't clear, you would object in cross-examination. But the practice
18 here seems to be that I would just correct it in re-examination, so I
19 will absolutely follow this practice. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not want to confuse the witness.
22 I'm just trying to understand some things from the transcript. I've not
23 now had an opportunity to look at the photo before, and I want to clarify
24 things with the witness. I'm going to read the question again: [In
1 "Q. Can you tell me behind this building, this rectangle
2 building, were belonging to the BH Army?"
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Read what is being typed. Is that correct
4 on the transcript here now? Here on the screen.
5 MS. BOLTON: There is one word that's incorrect, Your Honour, and
6 that is this as opposed to "these".
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say it's supposed to be "these."
8 MR. LUKIC: "These," yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the word following after that that says
10 building is still in the singular?
11 MR. LUKIC: Rectangle building, yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the building before this rectangle is also in
13 the singular, and yet we use "these"?
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, I don't know what we are talking
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it would have been better for
18 me to put the whole transcript on the ELMO, instead of me mispronouncing
20 Q. And then you said in your answer: [In English]
21 "A. Both parties used to take position there, but those were
22 not permanent positions so much as I was able to gather with regards to
23 the situation on the front."
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
25 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry my friend forgot to read part of the
1 answer actually to the question. I don't mean to keep interrupting, but
2 the answer actually starts two lines earlier.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then you said -- Madam Registrar, says she has
4 found this page of the transcript. Would you want to tender this photo
5 that's on the screen so that she can put this transcript on the page --
6 on the screen rather? Or do you still want to make markings on this?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to ask the witness
8 whether his number may be linked to the part of the transcript that I
9 have read out from, and then we can remove that from the screen and
10 return the transcript.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, my problem, Mr. Lukic, is we want to know
12 what this man said in the Galic case. And we don't know --
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honour. Can this map
14 first be admitted into evidence, and can we then look at the transcript
15 and see if that needs an additional clarification.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. It is admitted. May it please be given an
17 exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D71, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I have read the question in line 8, and the answer which starts
22 on line 10. And now I'm going to ask you in very simple terms, was there
23 a building next to the Metalka building which used to hold the positions
24 of the BiH Army? Do you know that? And do you agree with me if I put it
25 that way?
1 A. Yes, but that was in 1992. After that, the BiH Army could not
2 even dream of entering that building again. In other words, my answer
3 was in respect of the period when I was a BiH Army member between 1992
4 and 1994, and that was in the Galic case. This incident happened in 1994
5 when the BiH Army could not cross the Vrbanja bring.
6 Q. I have read out from the case that took place in 2007, the
7 Dragomir Milosevic case. I'm asking you whether you still adhere to your
8 statement that later in the course of the war there were no BiH Army
9 positions in that building?
10 A. Yes, I adhere to my statement that after 1992, there were no
11 BiH Army positions there.
12 Q. Was this no-man's land during the war?
13 A. Well, I was an army member. There were rumours about this being
14 no-man's land.
15 Q. What was the situation later?
16 A. I really wouldn't know because I did not get involved in any
17 military politics.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. Did you say this transcript on the
19 screen is from the Milosevic case?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I apologise. I was the one who initially
22 caused the confusion. I thought it was from the Galic case. Thank you
23 so much.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's because my previous question
25 was about the Galic case, and this particular testimony was provided on
1 the 19th of April, 2007.
2 Q. Let me follow up on your previous answer when you said that you
3 did not get involved in any military issues, did you ever carry out
4 inspections together with members of the BiH Army?
5 A. There was one such case, the shelling of Sarajevo airport, and at
6 that time the airport was under UN control. UN invited members of the
7 BiH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska to participate in the
8 investigation. And from the command of the 1st Corps of the BiH Army
9 they called for us, and I never found out why they had insisted on the
10 civilian police getting involved. And that was the only case where all
11 of us worked together, the BiH Army, the Republika Srpska army, and
12 UNPROFOR, and the civilian police. A shell had fallen on the earth
13 embankment, there were no injured or killed, but since that airport was
14 under the control of UNPROFOR, they insisted on the procedure.
15 Q. Do you know that representatives of the army of Bosnian Serbs,
16 i.e., of the Bosnian army and the Bosnian Serb authorities insisted on
17 being present during some investigations that were carried out by your
19 A. I did not know of that. And I knew that there were teams in the
20 police of Republika Srpska trained to perform such duties. And it would
21 have been beneficial and mutually beneficial if we could work together.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce P19 --
23 just a moment, Your Honours. Let's keep this photo on the screen before
24 we do anything else.
25 Q. Could you please tell us -- let me put it this way: Between
1 these buildings or among these four high-rise buildings and the street of
2 Zmaja od Bosne through which the tram ran, there's the Miljacka river; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes, the name of the river is Miljacka.
5 Q. And also from the Miljacka river to the tram tracks, there was a
6 territory which was under the control of the BiH army; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. And we are looking at that, the low
8 buildings along the tram tracks.
9 Q. Please look at the back and draw an arrow pointing towards the
10 Jewish cemetery, please.
11 A. Impossible. The pen doesn't work. Now it's okay.
12 Q. Where is the approximate distance between the Jewish cemetery and
14 A. 1500 or 20 [as interpreted] metres as the crow flies.
15 Q. You know that it is an impossible distance for a sharp shooter?
16 A. Well, if you want to hit something -- but what rifle are you
17 talking about? With an optical site, I think it's impossible. From the
18 top of the Jewish cemetery, yes, it was impossible.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you ask one of your assistants to collect a
20 document from the security there, please. And may I ask that if she can
21 help, because I think the distance is too far from the accused, and the
22 security gentleman are concerned not to leave him alone.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are not used to working in such a
24 large and spacious room.
25 Q. Do you know in view of the job that you performed when you had
1 contacts with both militaries, do you know that along this stretch
2 between the Miljacka river towards the Holiday Inn hotel, what positions
3 were held by the BiH army members? Were they on any of the buildings?
4 A. In this basement of the school of machine engineering, they had
5 their positions. I know that, and I don't know about the rest.
6 Q. When it comes to sharp shooting, are you aware of the term
8 A. No, I'm not.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
10 Your Honour. Could this map please be admitted into evidence, the map
11 depicting the arrow that the witness drew.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted.
13 May it please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D72.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 Madam Bolton, re-examination?
17 MS. BOLTON: May I just have a moment to confer with Mr. Thomas?
18 Sorry, Your Honour, I didn't hear your response.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am, you may. I beg your pardon.
20 MS. BOLTON: Oh, thank you. No, I beg your pardon. I was
21 standing here just staring at your head. Be right back.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This ugly head?
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I just have one or two questions, Your Honour.
25 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
1 Q. My friend was asking you about the capabilities of a
2 sharp-shooter. I'm just wondering what expertise you have on sharp
4 A. Well, I've never used a sniper rifle, an M-76, if that's what you
5 are asking me. So I would not be the relevant person to teach someone
6 how to shoot a sniper rifle.
7 Q. Sorry. My friend's question was about the distance that a
8 sharp-shooter was capable or incapable of hitting an object at. And I
9 just want to know on what basis you answered that question, what your
10 expertise is in terms of that area of questioning?
11 A. Yes, from the characteristics of the M-76 rifle, and if you read
12 the handbook, it tells you at what distance you can achieve the best
13 results. So it would be crazy for someone to use it over a distance of
14 let's say, 2.000 metres, because they could achieve much better results
15 with another kind of weapon. That is why I said that this weapon could
16 not be used for such distances.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get the record straight. Sir, at
18 page 78, line 13, did you say you are 76, or were you talking about the
19 M-76? You would be a very handsome, young 76, if you were.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the M-76 model of rifle.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you were telling us your age. Thank you
22 so much.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. So I take it, sir, your answer to his question, because I don't I
1 don't think there had been previous mention of the M-76, I'm sure my
2 friend will correct me if I'm wrong, was restricted to the -- or was
3 based on the assumption that this sharp-shooter would have been using an
5 A. Probably, yes. But what rifle he actually used, he could have
6 used an M-84 in which case he might have achieved certain results.
7 Q. Okay. Another area my friend was asking about was whether there
8 had ever been incidents or occasions when UNPROFOR had asked for access
9 to fragments, and you had indicated only in cases of serious shelling,
10 not sniping. And I'd like to know if you were aware of any cases where
11 their requests for access were denied?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know of a single such case.
13 MS. BOLTON: Those are all my questions in re-examination. Thank
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you had wanted to clarify some of the
16 questions from the Milosevic evidence.
17 MS. BOLTON: I think in light of the subsequent questioning and
18 answering that went on, Your Honour, that it's not an area that I need to
19 further follow-up on. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Bolton.
21 Thank you very much, sir. That concludes your evidence. Thank
22 you for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused. You may
23 stand down and travel well back home.
24 Do we need to be in closed session for the witness to leave?
25 MS. BOLTON: I think in order to preserve the image distortion,
1 it's necessary.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we please move into closed session.
3 [Closed session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
10 MS. BOLTON: Those are all the witnesses we have available for
11 today, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. In that event, then the
13 Chamber stands adjourned to Monday the 23rd at 9.00 in the morning,
14 courtroom II. Court adjourned.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd of March,
17 2009, at 9.00 a.m.