Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4641

 1                           Monday, 23 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             THE COURT:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for the

12     day starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

14     Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton, Carmela Javier appearing for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to all the participants in this proceedings.  Today we have

19     Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Daniela Tasic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and Novak

20     Lukic for Mr. Perisic.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Harmon.

23             MR. HARMON:  We would call General Dorde Curcin.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 4642

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, sir.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, sir.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 8                           WITNESS:  DORDE CURCIN

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Harmon:

11        Q.   Morning, sir.  Could you state your name and spell your last name

12     for the record, please.

13        A.   My name is Curcin, Dorde.  I'm not sure how to spell it.  That's

14     C-u-r-c-i-n.

15        Q.   Prior to coming to court today, did you provide a statement under

16     oath on the 1st of August 2006 before an investigative judge of the

17     2nd Municipal Court in Belgrade as part of criminal proceedings against

18     an accused Blagoje Govedarica?

19        A.   Yes, I gave a statement against Blagoje Govedarica.

20        Q.   On the 6th of November, 2007, pursuant to a request for

21     assistance by the office of the Prosecutor, were you summoned to the

22     Belgrade district court war crimes Chamber?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   On that date did you provide a statement before Judge Dragan

25     Plasnic?

Page 4643

 1        A.   Yes, I gave that statement before the Judge Dragan Plasnic.

 2        Q.   Before you gave that statement, were you warned of the

 3     consequences of giving false testimony?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When you gave your statement to Judge Plasnic, was I present

 6     along with a investigator Mr. Bretton Randal and Mr. Novak Lukic who is

 7     Defence counsel for General Perisic?

 8        A.   Yes, and an interpreter.

 9        Q.   On the 24th of August, 2007, did you voluntarily provide to the

10     Defence in the Odonic case a statement?

11        A.   I apologise, could you tell me what year you mean?

12        Q.   2007.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   On the 5th of October, 2007, did you testify as a Defence witness

15     in this institution on behalf of General Odonic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you require a subpoena to attend those proceedings, or did

18     you attend voluntarily?

19        A.   Which proceedings do you mean, the -- this proceedings or the

20     last one?

21        Q.   No, sir, I'm referring to the proceedings that occurred with

22     General Odonic where you were a witness and you testified in those

23     proceedings on the 5th of October, 2007.  My question is, did you require

24     a subpoena to appear in those proceedings, or did you appear voluntarily?

25        A.   I came voluntarily at the request of the Defence.

Page 4644

 1        Q.   In respect of these proceedings, General Curcin, were you

 2     contacted by an OTP investigator on the 6th of February, 2009, and asked

 3     to attend these proceedings?

 4        A.   On that day someone tried to get in touch with me, but I refused

 5     to speak with him until the procedure as envisaged by our laws was

 6     followed, because at the time I did not have a waiver on official

 7     secrets, nor had I received a subpoena or a summons from my court.

 8        Q.   Did you require a subpoena in order to attend these proceedings

 9     today?

10        A.   No, absolutely not.  Had the procedure been followed, I would

11     have come gladly voluntarily.

12        Q.   Did you receive a subpoena to attend these proceedings?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   When you were contacted yesterday by the representative of the

15     Office of the Prosecutor in order to review your statements and a

16     proofing session, did you refuse to do so?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Prior to these proceedings, General Curcin, have you talked to

19     anybody about your testimony in these proceedings?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Could you tell us, General Curcin, about your military

22     background.  Take us through your career, please.

23        A.   I completed the military academy land forces in 1967, and I

24     became a lieutenant.  I went through many levels from commander of a

25     platoon and company battalion Brigade.  I also performed various duties

Page 4645

 1     as an instructor in military schools.  I had operative duties in the

 2     Brigade corps and army.  And I finished my career as Lieutenant-General,

 3     the chief of the first administration in the General Staff of the

 4     Yugoslav army.

 5        Q.   Amongst the posts that you held, General Curcin, were you the

 6     chief of operations and training in the 1st Army?

 7        A.   Yes, for five years.

 8        Q.   And what were those years?

 9        A.   From 1983 -- I apologise, from 1993 up until 1998.

10        Q.   When were you appointed to the rank of major-general?

11        A.   In 1995 on the 16th of --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

13     said June or July.

14             MR. HARMON:

15        Q.   Sir, was it in June, or was it in July of 1995?  The interpreter

16     didn't understand your answer.

17        A.   On the 16th of June, on army day, that was the army day of

18     Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   And were you ever assigned to the Yugoslav Army General Staff,

20     and if so, when?

21        A.   Yes, the decision to transfer me to a duty in the General Staff

22     was issued to me prior to new year 1998, and on the 13th of January,

23     1999, I became the chief of the first administration of the

24     General Staff.  And I was -- I remained in this duty up until the 30th of

25     September in the year of 2000.  I apologise, I think it was 2000.  Or

Page 4646

 1     rather, 2001.  I'm not absolutely certain.

 2        Q.   And when did you retire from the Yugoslav Army?

 3        A.   On the 30th of September.  I think 2001, but I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Do you know Ratko Mladic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How long have you known Ratko Mladic?

 7        A.   For over 30 years now.

 8        Q.   When did you first become acquainted with Ratko Mladic?

 9        A.   I was first acquainted to his -- to Ratko Mladic when we attended

10     the command staff academy together about 32 years ago.

11        Q.   Did you ever have any assignments with Ratko Mladic?

12        A.   Yes.  We were battalion commanders in the same Brigade, in the

13     3rd Army in Macedonia.  We did many -- we had many assignments together

14     as captains 1st class.

15        Q.   How would you characterise your relationship with Ratko Mladic?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this topic is

18     irrelevant, the facts that we are discussing now, so I would ask my

19     colleague, Mr. Harmon, to explain what the relevance of these questions

20     is.

21             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, then I would ask the witness to be

22     excused so the explanation isn't made in his presence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, General, would you please excuse us.  You can

24     stand down for a short while, we'll call you back in another couple of

25     minutes.

Page 4647

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             MR. HARMON:  The relevance of this question, Your Honour, is that

 3     it is our position that this witness had a very close personal

 4     relationship with the the witness.  I'm going to be asking him questions

 5     about General --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, you said this witness has a very close

 7     relationship with the witness.

 8             MR. HARMON:  I didn't mean to say that, with General Mladic.  It

 9     is our position, Your Honour, that this witness, that experience may

10     colour the testimony of this witness when I ask him other questions, and

11     I think it's important that the Court understand the relationship and

12     when listening to the answers of this witness because there will be some

13     questions that will probe about events that he had a hand in, in our view

14     -- that he had a hand in, in secreting General Mladic from the public.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In doing what to General Mladic?

16             MR. HARMON:  He was involved in harbouring General Mladic from

17     the public.  That is our position.  And I think the Court would be

18     informed to know about his relationship with General Mladic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This witness, as far as I can see

21     from the summary of his testimony, I believe that in context of the facts

22     that are mentioned there, that is what the Prosecutor should focus on,

23     and there is no mention on his close relationship with General Mladic.

24     And that's why I felt it was irrelevant to the case at hand.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Objection overruled.

Page 4648

 1             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, if the witness could be called

 2     back into the courtroom.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, we can call the witness back.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 6             MR. HARMON:

 7        Q.   General Curcin, how would you characterise your relationship with

 8     Ratko Mladic?

 9        A.   General Mladic and I are good friends.  We also attended school

10     together, and we are also personal or family friends.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, General Curcin, what is your relationship with

12     General Perisic?

13        A.   General Perisic is also someone I went through training together.

14     We attended the national defence school together.  He was the Chief of

15     General Staff when I was there, and I can say that he was a mate, a pal.

16     Just a pal.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, can you inform us of -- actually, what was the

18     relationship between General Mladic and General Perisic?

19        A.   I am afraid I cannot describe that because I don't actually know

20     what the relationship was, except that I know that all three of us were

21     in the same group in the national defence school together, and we --

22     we've known each other since then as colleagues.

23             As for any more details, I'm not sure I could help with that.

24        Q.   Were you asked by Judge Plazinic to describe the relationship

25     between General Perisic and General Mladic?

Page 4649

 1        A.   As far as I can recall, yes, but I did not really want to discuss

 2     that because anything I would say about it would be speculation because I

 3     am unable to testify to those facts firsthand.

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with the term in your language "kum"?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And what does -- can you define that term for the Trial Chamber.

 7     What does that mean?

 8        A.   When two people get married, they have to have witnesses, two

 9     witnesses, and those people are called kum.  So a kum is not quite a

10     relative, but it is a very valuable, dear friend and it goes on through

11     the family for a long time.  This kum is also supposed to name the

12     children once they are born, to give them their first names.

13        Q.   Was there a relationship of kum between General Perisic and

14     General Mladic?

15        A.   No, that's not true.  That's just an invented story.

16        Q.   Were General Mladic and General Perisic related by marriage in

17     any way, to your knowledge?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now, are you familiar, General Curcin, with the facilities, the

20     Yugoslav Army facilities at Rajac and Stragari?

21        A.   Yes, in Stragari.

22        Q.   Can you describe -- let's start with the facilities at Rajac, can

23     you describe the facilities at Rajac, please.

24        A.   I don't understand your question.

25        Q.   Was there a hotel at Rajac?

Page 4650

 1        A.   There is something that we call a hotel at Rajac, but it's not

 2     really a hotel by any standards.  It is a small area enclosed or fenced

 3     in by a stone fence, and there is wire on three sides.  These facilities

 4     are meant or rest and recreation.  There is a football pitch, a

 5     volleyball and basketball pitch and also a very nice park where you can

 6     take walks and rest.  There is also a sort of lobby at the very entrance

 7     and then three small homes, weekend homes, as it were.  So this is a

 8     facility of -- that perhaps I could describe in further detail if you'd

 9     like me to.

10        Q.   Let me see if I understand your statement.  This is a facility

11     where VJ soldiers can go and take recreation and take lodging, take rest;

12     is that correct?

13        A.   No, not military, not soldiers, but officers and members of their

14     family, as well as civilians.  And this is for a very limited number of

15     people.

16        Q.   When you say it's for a limited number of people, what do you

17     mean by that?

18        A.   Well, that would mean that about 30 people at most can lodge

19     there at a time, as far as I can recall.  Most of these rooms were two

20     bedrooms and that was on the first floor and then on the higher floors,

21     on the second floor there were two bed- and three bedrooms.  And on the

22     ground floor, there's a restaurant and a kitchen.

23        Q.   Were there facilities of a similar kind at the facility at

24     Stragari?

25        A.   No.  Both these facilities were -- had a different purpose

Page 4651

 1     earlier, but then later on when there was no need for that anymore, it

 2     was turned Rajac into a recreation and lodging facility.  Stragari is a

 3     command post used for training.  And in certain -- at certain times,

 4     officers and commanders would go through training there.  There is no

 5     hotel there.  There is just an administration building, a one-story

 6     building; two small houses where the personnel is lodged or accommodated,

 7     one room each; and one or two huts where personnel can lodge; several

 8     concrete platforms prepared for setting up tents, large tents; parking

 9     lots; and a large hall which was built 200 years ago where the command

10     could be stationed so that they can practice certain tactical practices,

11     exercises.  So this is a far larger area than the facility at Rajac.

12     Both these facilities are guarded by four to five guards and several

13     guard dogs, and there would be one officer who was in charge of the

14     facility.

15        Q.   General Curcin, during the period you were chief of operations

16     and training in the 1st Army, that is from 1993 to 1998, did either or

17     both of those facilities come under your jurisdiction?

18        A.   No.  I know that I said before the Judge that one of these

19     facility, Rajac, namely, was under my jurisdiction.  What I meant then

20     was the division of duties between me and the logistics commander as to

21     who was going to be in charge of this facility so that it could be

22     improved and maintained properly.  Generally speaking both these

23     facilities are under the exclusive command of the staff command of the

24     1st Army, and the staff command is subordinated to the Chief of Staff of

25     the 1st Army.

Page 4652

 1        Q.   When you said before the Judge of the 2nd municipal court that

 2     Rajac specifically came under your jurisdiction, what am I to understand

 3     by that answer?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps it would be a good idea

 6     to follow the same practice that we followed so far, to namely put this

 7     sentence before the witness so that he can read it, and then he can

 8     understand what context the question was put in and what context his

 9     answer should be in.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you suggesting to Mr. Harmon how he should run

11     his case?  Or I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I apologise if that's how it

13     came across.  I just think that the witness should be allowed to see the

14     statement and to read the sentence as he had actually worded it, and I

15     think it would be best to hear what the witness had said actually.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... let's see how

17     Mr. Harmon wants to prosecute the case.

18             MR. HARMON:

19        Q.   General Curcin, my question to you was when you said before the

20     judge of the 2nd municipal court that Rajac was specifically under your

21     jurisdiction, what am I to understand from that answer?

22        A.   I would prefer to see the text itself and to read the entire

23     paragraph because I have never seen that statement before, and I can't

24     really remember what I said exactly.  So I would like to see what it is

25     that I exactly said there and the entire context, and then I could answer

Page 4653

 1     your question.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. HARMON:  Could the statement of General Curcin before the

 4     2nd Municipal Court in Belgrade be put on the monitor.  The B/C/S

 5     version, please.  Could the English as well be placed on the other side

 6     of the monitor.  If the witness could review his statement, I think we

 7     will need to go in the B/C/S version of the statement to the next page,

 8     and in the English version we will have to go to page 2.

 9        Q.   General, you'll see a part of your previous statement on the

10     monitor.  When you get to the bottom, you'll need to keep reading down,

11     and if you will tell us when you've reach the bottom of the page, the

12     Registrar will move the page up for you.

13        A.   I probably did not quite understand or correctly understand the

14     question of the Judge.  And secondly, it was not I who gave this

15     statement and dictated the text, it was rather a conversation with a

16     judge and then he read out or he wrapped it up for the typist.  I have to

17     repeat, the Rajac and Stragari facilities were under the command of the

18     headquarters administration of the 1st Army and the headquarters

19     administration in the chain of command was under the command of the Chief

20     of Staff of the 1st Army.

21             When I said something as it appears here, what I meant was the

22     internal division between me and the logistics assistant who it was to be

23     between the two of us who would take care of the facilities to make them

24     liveable for the people who go to rest there.  This had nothing to do

25     with the establishment itself because within per establishment, it is

Page 4654

 1     very clear who is responsible for what in the army.  Therefore, I

 2     apologise if there was a misunderstanding of some sort, but I had no

 3     jurisdiction over either one of these two facilities, which means that I

 4     didn't have jurisdiction over Rajac either.

 5        Q.   When you say, General Curcin, that, and I'm quoting you:  "What I

 6     meant was the internal division between me and the logistics assistant

 7     who it was to be between the two of us who would take care of the

 8     facilities to make them liveable for people who would go to rest there,"

 9     what was the internal division between you and the logistics assistants

10     that you are describing?

11        A.   At the very outset the interpreter said internal, "inner," but in

12     fact it was between the two of us, the two of us discussed this issue as

13     to who was to take care to make sure that good conditions existed there

14     so that the officers and their family members can go and spend some time

15     there, rest there, and that is the only way it should be understood and

16     in no other sense.

17        Q.   So again, when you say "the two of us who took care of good

18     conditions," who were the two people you are talking about, yourself and

19     who else?

20        A.   Vukovic Ljubisa.  But we did not really dwell on this issue, we

21     rather tried through the collegium of the army commanders to ensure what

22     any of the heads requested, and they would need a lot of time to get it

23     through normal channels.

24        Q.   So let's start first of all, who is Ljubisa Vukovic, who is he,

25     and what is his position in the Yugoslav Army?

Page 4655

 1        A.   Ljubisa Vukovic at the time was a colonel, later he became a

 2     general.  He was logistics officer.  So I was logistic officer for the

 3     entire command, and he was the logistic officer, operations officer in

 4     the logistics.  And for various reasons he took care about this

 5     particular facility all this time.  One of the reasons that he took care

 6     about this facility was that his command used this facility for training

 7     from time to time, and my part used Rajac for training of officers and

 8     commands for given operations.  And this is why we needed optimum

 9     conditions when it comes to communications, accommodation, and other

10     prerequisites in order for these two parts of the command to be able to

11     function when they went into the field.

12        Q.   So to be clear, you were the logistics officer for the entire

13     command, do I understand that to be the entire command of the 1st Army?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   What did you mean when you said that, "I was logistics officer

16     for the entire command."  I'm quoting your answer at page 14, lines 24

17     and 25.

18        A.   This was an interpretation error.  I never mentioned logistics.

19     I was an operations officer.  I was in charge of operations, so I was in

20     charge of operations affairs, rather than logistics.  I did not mention

21     logistics in this context.

22        Q.   Was then Colonel Vukovic a subordinate of yours?

23        A.   No.  Colonel Vukovic was subordinate to the assistant for

24     logistics at the 1st Army Command, and this was Mr. Pantelic.

25     General Pantelic.  And General Pantelic was subordinated to the chief of

Page 4656

 1     the army.  As the operations officer, I was subordinated to -- but truth

 2     be said, a year or two later, when General Pantelic left to work at the

 3     General staff, Colonel Vukovic became assistant for logistics, so the

 4     first person when it comes to logistics in the 1st Army, and he was

 5     subordinated to the army commander, we are talking about the 1st Army.

 6        Q.   General, I'm trying to understand part of your answer earlier.

 7     You said that along these lines that, the two of us took care that good

 8     conditions existed there, meaning at the Rajac facility.  What were your

 9     responsibilities toward the Rajac facility?  What did you do in respect

10     of the Rajac facilities while you were between -- while you were the

11     chief of operations and training in the 1st Army?

12        A.   Nothing, we simply used this facility from time to time for the

13     purpose of training in order to have as little work as possible in order

14     to find the facility cleaned, prepared, tables positioned as we wanted

15     them, in order to have the communications and heliport prepared and car

16     parking prepared, we insisted to have this through the command of the

17     headquarters administration to have all this prepared before we came

18     there.  And this is why I said that we had certain competences, but it

19     would be better to say that we had certain requests as to what needed to

20     be prepared before we came to this facility.

21             We had no other competencies, neither General Vukovic nor myself.

22        Q.   It's my understanding, General Curcin, that the Rajac facility

23     was in a state of either disrepair or it wasn't particularly fit for

24     housing guests during the period from 1995 onwards, and that there was an

25     effort made to rehabilitate the facility in order to make it -- the

Page 4657

 1     standards elevated and people could stay there.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   To a certain extent, but not entirely.  This is the matter before

 3     General Vukovic and myself managed to convince the Chief of General Staff

 4     and the army commander to make sure that this facility is improved in

 5     order to be able to receive guests, until that moment that facility was

 6     -- fell out of use because it was not at all used.  In order to improve

 7     the facility to make sure that certain number of officers and members of

 8     their family could go there for vacation, certain things needed to be

 9     repaired starting from carpets and curtains and bedding and dishes and

10     all that.  So that officers and their families, once they came there,

11     could have their vacation there under proper conditions as prescribed by

12     the command of the Yugoslav Army.  So this is what I wanted to say as a

13     way of answering your question.

14        Q.   Okay.  General Curcin, did you have any decision-making or

15     decision-making in the improvements that were taking place at the Rajac

16     facility?

17        A.   No.  And there was no need for that.  This issue was discussed at

18     the collegium and the army commander turned this into orders issued to

19     the Chief of General Staff who then issued respective orders.  So for

20     example, the asphalt was put on the road, the main gate was repaired, and

21     monument was erected to Misic who fought there in the vicinity during the

22     First World War.  Also the external lighting was repaired and different

23     things were done so that when officers came there, either officially or

24     privately, they could find more or less appropriate conditions for their

25     work and vacation.

Page 4658

 1        Q.   General Curcin, did you see General Mladic at the Rajac facility?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When did you see General Mladic at the Rajac facility?

 4        A.   In early July of 1997.

 5        Q.   On how many separate occasions did you see General Mladic at the

 6     Rajac facility?

 7        A.   I can't remember exactly, but I'm sure I saw him at least once

 8     approximately one month later.

 9        Q.   How did you become aware that General Mladic was at the Rajac

10     facility?

11        A.   Somebody told me that he was there, and then one weekend I simply

12     went down there to have a walk and some rest, and since he was there we

13     also met each other.

14        Q.   Who told you that General Mladic was at the Rajac facility?

15        A.   I can't remember.

16        Q.   Is it your evidence that you went to the Rajac facility on your

17     own and by chance met General Mladic at that facility, or did you go to

18     see General Mladic specifically?

19        A.   I can't say that for sure, maybe I heard, and that's why I went

20     there.  But I used to go to Rajac often, as often as I could.  I would go

21     there and spend an entire week with my wife or with my granddaughter, so

22     I went to Rajac quite a lot, but on that specific occasion it could be

23     that I heard from somebody that he was there and I also had some time,

24     and therefore I went there to see him.

25        Q.   How is it possible that General Mladic was at the Rajac facility

Page 4659

 1     in July of 1997?

 2        A.   He was simply there.

 3        Q.   On what basis?

 4        A.   I can't say that.  I really don't know.

 5        Q.   Was the Rajac facility a facility for VJ officers?

 6        A.   Yes, it was a facility for officers, members of their family and

 7     civilian employees of the Yugoslav Army.

 8        Q.   And what was Ratko Mladic's status?

 9        A.   As far as I know General Ratko Mladic retired on 1st of March,

10     2002.

11        Q.   Retired from where in March of 2002?

12        A.   I don't understand this question, retired from where.

13        Q.   What did he retire from in 2002?

14        A.   I couldn't say this for sure because as far as I know his active

15     military duty ceased following a decree of the President of the Federal

16     Republic of Yugoslavia.  There may have been another decree prior to this

17     from Republika Srpska whereby he was member of the Army of Republika

18     Srpska, and then this decree was just verified by the decree of the

19     Yugoslav Army.  I really don't know these details.

20        Q.   Sir, when you gave testimony under oath to Judge Plazinic on the

21     6th of November, 2007, were you asked and did you answer -- were you

22     asked about General Mladic's status and did you answer, and I quote:

23             "Ratko Mladic was an active serviceman in the Yugoslav Army until

24     March 2002."  Did you provide that answer to Judge Plazinic?

25        A.   Could I see that on the screen?

Page 4660

 1             MR. HARMON:  Could I then have 65 ter -- the identification

 2     number 06145678 on the screen.  And I'm interested in page 3 of the

 3     English.  I believe it's page 2 of the B/C/S.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you possibly enlarge this a

 5     bit.  Thank you.  Yes, I remember this.  Could you kindly repeat your

 6     question now.

 7             MR. HARMON:

 8        Q.   Did you tell Judge Plazinic that Ratko Mladic was an active

 9     serviceman in the Yugoslav Army until March 2002?

10        A.   Yes, I did say this, though there is a procedure which I did not

11     explain on this occasion.  First of all --

12        Q.   Let me interrupt you for just a minute.  I'm not asking you about

13     a procedure, I'm asking you whether you gave Judge Plazinic the answer

14     that is in the recorded statement.

15             Now, I want to proceed, General Curcin.  I want you to describe

16     your visit with General Mladic at the Rajac facility when you visited him

17     the first time.  What did you do?

18        A.   We didn't really do anything.  We talked for awhile.  It was

19     raining, although it was summer, so we could not walk through the woods.

20     We sat in a hole.  We played some chess.  We may have played some cards

21     as well.  We had lunch together, and in the afternoon I went back to

22     Belgrade.  I came to Rajac approximately at 10.30, and I came back to

23     Belgrade during the daylight in the afternoon.

24        Q.   Okay.  Did you travel to Rajac and make that first visit with

25     your wife?

Page 4661

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, who was present with General Mladic on the occasion of your

 3     first visit?

 4        A.   There were several members of his security team.  Nobody else

 5     that I could recognise.

 6        Q.   And how were the members of his security team dressed?

 7        A.   I remember that in my statement given before the Judge, I said

 8     that they wore the army uniforms, but now I couldn't claim that on the

 9     occasion of my very first visit they had uniforms on.  At least not all

10     of them.  Later on they did, but on that occasion, some of them may have

11     wore uniforms, some of them were in civilian clothes, or maybe all of

12     them were in civilian clothes.  Later on all of them, or at least most of

13     them, wore camouflage army uniforms.

14        Q.   Camouflage army uniforms of what army?

15        A.   All the uniforms were similar, but those that I can remember wore

16     the uniforms of our army of the Yugoslav Army.

17        Q.   Now, in addition to the persons who were wearing uniforms around

18     General Mladic, did he have his own personal close protection unit?

19        A.   Apart from the cook and the waiter, there were also several other

20     people who served as his personal guards.

21        Q.   Approximately how many people were in his entourage when you

22     visited General Mladic in Rajac?

23        A.   There was nobody around him.  These men were hidden away,

24     concealed.  They stayed away so they weren't very visible, so I never

25     knew how many of them were present, nor where were they.  But I'm sure

Page 4662

 1     there were several.  More than two or three, but you couldn't really see

 2     them or count them.

 3        Q.   You said there was a cook.  What other types of people were

 4     involved or supporting General Mladic at the Rajac facility?  You said a

 5     cook, what else?

 6        A.   The waiter, a driver, and that's about it.  And in addition to

 7     this there were several body-guards.

 8        Q.   How were his body-guards dressed?

 9        A.   That's what I wanted to explain awhile ago.  Some may have wore

10     uniforms, some wore civilian clothes, that's what I could see.  But given

11     that I did not know them personally, they circulated, so I couldn't

12     really tell you how many there were.

13        Q.   And who paid for General Mladic's security guards?

14        A.   This is what I told you back in Belgrade, I do not know precisely

15     who paid for his security guards.  I never came across any payment

16     records, I never saw that any money changed hands.  At the time we

17     received salaries on our current accounts as, as we do now, and it was

18     enough for the army IT centre to provide to the Ministry's IT centre

19     certain data, and this is how payment of certain amount was made.  In

20     other words, I remember very well what I answered last time, and this is

21     that this security was probably paid by the same source that provided

22     General Mladic's salary.

23        Q.   What was that source?

24        A.   I don't know.  I assume, as I said the last time, that this was

25     the financial service of the Ministry of Defence.  They are the ones who

Page 4663

 1     are paying salaries, not the financial service of the army.

 2        Q.   Let me direct you, General Curcin, to the same statement that is

 3     in front of you.

 4             MR. HARMON:  If I could go to page 7 of the English.  And in the

 5     B/C/S I imagine it is the next page.

 6        Q.   General Curcin, let me ask you this question:  You were asked who

 7     organised and paid for General Mladic's security guards by

 8     Judge Plazinic, and -- or in the proceedings before Judge Plazinic, and

 9     you answered:

10             "I do not know who organised and paid for Mladic's security

11     guards.  I know that Mladic was in charge of the team, and the men were

12     probably paid by those who paid General Mladic, meaning, the financial

13     service of the Yugoslav Army..."

14             Was that the answer you gave before Judge Plazinic?

15        A.   Please allow me just to find this.

16             Yes, although it seems to me that this was wrongly translated,

17     that he was in charge of the team.  I'm not sure.  "I do not know who

18     organised and paid for Mladic's security guards, I note that the team was

19     under the chain of command of General Mladic."  Yes, this is what I

20     stated, but this is what the Judge dictated to be recorded.  The Judge

21     asked a question, he talked to me about this issue, and then he dictated

22     the text to the recorder, so there is nothing I would like to change now.

23     I can just add that the body responsible for payment of salaries is the

24     financial service of the Ministry of Defence.  And the financial service

25     of the army simply provides data to the IT sector of the Ministry of

Page 4664

 1     Defence who takes care of the payments.

 2        Q.   General Curcin, the record of interview before Judge Plazinic was

 3     prepared, typed, and you had an opportunity to review that interview, did

 4     you not?  And in fact you had an opportunity to sign the interview after

 5     reviewing it; is that correct?

 6        A.   Up to a point.  Now, you can recall you were seated on my right,

 7     and I did not read this note.  I just signed it without reading it.  Both

 8     your investigator and the interpreter were there in addition to Judge

 9     Plazinic and the typist.

10        Q.   And in addition to Mr. Lukic who was counsel for General Perisic,

11     he was also there?

12        A.   No, Mr. Lukic was there during the first part, and I'm sure that

13     he left at the point where you started putting questions to me, or maybe

14     a little after that.  He was -- he had to leave.  He did not remain there

15     throughout.  And that's not noted in this record.  And of course, this

16     record is -- has to do with -- it's an interview relating to a completely

17     different case.

18        Q.   First of all, could you indicate whose signature that is at the

19     bottom right-hand side of the B/C/S version that's in front of you on the

20     monitor.  Is that your signature?

21        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. HARMON:  Could we go to the end of the document in B/C/S.

24        Q.   Do you see your signature on that page?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4665

 1             MR. HARMON:  Can we go to the first page of the B/C/S and the

 2     first page of the English.

 3        Q.   Your evidence, General Curcin, at page 24, line 12 and 13, you

 4     said:

 5             "This record -- I'm quoting you "this record is, has to do

 6     with -- it's an interview relating to a completely different case."

 7             Could you go to the top paragraph of this B/C/S version on the

 8     right, and you can see that this interview was compiled in connection

 9     with cases before the International Criminal Tribunal, the Prosecutor

10     versus Momcilo Perisic and the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic and

11     Ratko Mladic.  You see that?

12        A.   I can see that, but you know very well and you can remember very

13     well that the first page was not dictated in my presence.  It was

14     probably already something that had already been entered into the

15     computer before the interview was started.  There was no mention of

16     either Radovan Karadzic or Ratko Mladic, but only of the case against

17     Momcilo Perisic.  And you can also see at the end there is no signatures

18     from the Defence counsel here because he was there the first two-thirds

19     of the interview but then he was not there at the very end.  So he was

20     probably not there and able to sign it.  So in other words, I did know

21     and I was told by Judge Plazinic that this was a case the Prosecutor

22     versus Momcilo Perisic and not the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic and

23     Ratko Mladic.  And I again state that this first page was not something

24     that was typed in my presence.  There's just a form, it's a template that

25     was already in the computer before I entered the room.

Page 4666

 1        Q.   General Curcin, you've described your first visit with

 2     General Mladic, and I'd like you to describe -- can you identify when

 3     your second visit was with General Mladic at the Rajac facility?

 4        A.   I think it was in late July 1997.

 5        Q.   After that visit, was there another visit at Rajac with

 6     General Mladic?

 7        A.   At least another one, but much later.

 8        Q.   When was that, to the best of your recollection?

 9        A.   Well, although I really would like to try and recall, I can't,

10     and I can't tell you, but after awhile, he left these facilities, and I

11     can't remember when he returned.

12        Q.   How long was his first visit at the Rajac facility, the one in

13     July of 1995?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was it in July 1995?  You just said July 1995?

15             MR. HARMON:  July 1997, I'm sorry.  Thank you.

16        Q.   How long was the first visit?  How long did General Mladic stay

17     at the Rajac facility?

18        A.   Again I'm not sure what I am supposed to answer to, whether how

19     long my first visit there was or whether how long he stayed at Rajac in

20     July.

21        Q.   Perhaps I didn't make it clear.  How long did General Mladic stay

22     at the Rajac facility on his first -- the occasion of his first visit?

23        A.   A little over a month perhaps.

24        Q.   And how long did he stay on the occasion of his second visit?

25        A.   That I don't know.

Page 4667

 1        Q.   And did you visit General Mladic at Rajac between Christmas and

 2     Serbian new year in 2002?

 3        A.   No, that's an error.  I did visit General Mladic between --

 4     sometime between our Serbian new year and the Serbian Christmas which

 5     means between the 7th and 14th of January 2002, but this visit was at

 6     Stragari, not at Rajac.

 7        Q.   Okay.  When you visited General Mladic at Rajac, did he have

 8     other visitors besides yourself?

 9        A.   I don't know what you are referring to.  If you can assist me.

10     I'm not certain that I understood your question fully.

11        Q.   Besides yourself, who else visited General Mladic while he was

12     staying at Rajac?

13        A.   On one occasion, General Mladic received a visit from

14     General Perisic who came to be around.

15        Q.   Now, this is at the Rajac facility; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When was that?

18        A.   This was sometime in the latter part of July, almost in early

19     August 2007.

20        Q.   And at the time General Perisic visited General Mladic at Rajac,

21     what position did he hold in the Yugoslav Army?

22        A.   He was the Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.

23        Q.   Can you describe the visit with General Mladic and

24     General Perisic?

25        A.   Yes, I remember it vividly.

Page 4668

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to object, Your Honour.

 3     We can leave the date as it is in the transcript on page 27, line --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the line.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But because he said, the witness said

 6     that General Perisic was the Chief of Staff of the Yugoslav Army, the

 7     witness did state so, but I assume that it's an error.  So this is on

 8     line 14, page 27, I apologise.  I mean, the year is totally wrong, let me

 9     be more specific.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

11             Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  I see the error, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The year says 2007.

14             MR. HARMON:  Yes, thank you, counsel.

15        Q.   You were asked when did General Perisic visit General Mladic at

16     the Rajac facility, and your answer is recorded as "early August 2007."

17     Is that an error?

18        A.   Yes, absolutely an error.  Both of these things, not in early

19     August, but late July, on the eve of the beginning of August in 1997.

20        Q.   Thank you for the correction.

21             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Counsel.

22        Q.   Can you describe the visit that General Perisic and

23     General Mladic had.

24        A.   Yes, I can.

25        Q.   Please do so.

Page 4669

 1        A.   On a weekend in the morning around 10.30 or 11.00 as they emerged

 2     from the facility on the road to take a walk, this was the road between

 3     Ljig and Gornje Milanovac, as I was a strolling down the road by the

 4     fence where there is a sort of depression, I noticed on the right-hand

 5     side next to the fence a vehicle, a dark coloured Audi with dark windows.

 6     This is a area where -- this is a no-parking zone, so this is why I

 7     noticed this vehicle that was parked there.  I went up to the vehicle to

 8     see who was there.  And then the left, the driver's glass went down, and

 9     I noticed that General Perisic was inside.  He was dressed in civilian

10     clothes.  He was driving the car.  There was no security around him.  I

11     asked him kindly how he was, and he said, Well, I'm on my way, I went to

12     visit my mother in Kostunici, and I'm on my way to Belgrade.  Then I

13     asked him, Why don't you drop by and visit with us?  He didn't want to,

14     but then I managed to talk him into it.  He turned around his car and

15     drove to the facility.  He spent some time there, had conversation with

16     General Mladic.  They played some chess, maybe also some table tennis,

17     and a little after dinner, after lunch time, or after they had lunch, he

18     left for Belgrade.  So this day I'm not even sure that he actually did

19     have lunch.  That was all, his entire visit, and this meeting that I

20     attended.

21        Q.   Did he say why he didn't want to visit with General Mladic?

22        A.   No, he didn't.

23        Q.   Now, let me turn your attention, General Curcin, to the facility

24     at Stragari.  Did General Mladic stay a Stragari?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4670

 1        Q.   How many times did he stay at Stragari following the end of the

 2     war?

 3        A.   What end of the war?  What war?

 4        Q.   The end of the war in Bosnia?  How many times did General Mladic

 5     stay in Stragari?

 6        A.   I don't really know, and I doubt that he does, because he

 7     probably visited there on and off.  He would spend there some time and

 8     then go back home or some other place, so I can't really tell how long or

 9     how often he visited the Stragari facilities.

10        Q.   Did you visit General Mladic at the Stragari facility following

11     the end of the war in Bosnia?

12        A.   Before the war certainly not, but since you are insisting on the

13     period after the war, I suppose I was supposed to understand that to mean

14     after July and August 1997.  I did go there and visit a couple of times

15     on my way to inspect some units, or sometimes I would just go to see him.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  General, how many times did you visit

17     General Mladic at Stragari?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know exactly

19     the number of visits, but more than two to three times.  Maybe four.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.

21             MR. HARMON:

22        Q.   Were those visits that you paid on General Mladic, were they

23     announced visits?  Did you go to see him purposefully?  Did you know he

24     was there at Stragari when you stopped at Stragari and visited him?

25        A.   No.  As was the case with Rajac, I wasn't always informed or I

Page 4671

 1     didn't always know whether -- that he was there or not.  I would just

 2     stop by and see, and then if he was there, we would have a cup of coffee,

 3     and I would be on my way.  I never announced my visit so this wasn't the

 4     case in Stragari either.  We were never in communication in any way

 5     either by courier or e-mail or pigeon mail or any other kind of way, so

 6     these were just meetings that we had on the go, as it were.

 7        Q.   So these were chance visits to General Mladic at Stragari, am I

 8     to understand your evidence that way?

 9        A.   Yes, both in Stragari and at Rajac.

10        Q.   I see.  Now, in the time you visited General Mladic at Stragari

11     and at Rajac, were you aware that General Mladic had been indicted by the

12     Tribunal and that there were warrants for his arrest?

13        A.   I learned of that somewhat later from the media.  In other words,

14     I heard of this indictment and also that there was a reward offered and

15     that he was indicted before this Tribunal.

16        Q.   My question was, during the time that you met with General Mladic

17     at Rajac and Stragari, were you aware that he had been indicted and that

18     there was a warrant issued for his arrest?

19        A.   I can't recall when it was exactly that I heard of this from the

20     media, but I never had opportunity to see the indictment, so I can't

21     really be more precise in my answer.

22        Q.   Were you asked this question, the same question, before

23     Judge Plazinic, and did you answer, and I quote:

24             "During the time when I met with Mladic, I heard about the

25     indictment against him."

Page 4672

 1             Did you give that answer to Judge Plazinic?

 2        A.   It's quite possible that I answered in that manner, but I'm

 3     taking this opportunity now to clarify to you and to the Trial Chamber

 4     that it was only later, and I'm not sure exactly what year it was, that I

 5     learned that there was an indictment against him.  But let me say this,

 6     both on that occasion and today, I could have chosen not to answer that

 7     question so that I would not be in jeopardy in any way, so that legal

 8     action might not be taken against me.  But here it is, I did say what I

 9     had to say.

10             MR. HARMON:  Could we turn to page 7 of the English, the document

11     on the screen.

12        Q.   And, General Curcin, I'm going to give you an opportunity to

13     review your answer in the B/C/S.

14             MR. HARMON:  And I imagine this is on the second to last page in

15     B/C/S.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see that part on this page.

17             MR. HARMON:  Perhaps it's on the next page then.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, how much longer are you still going to

19     be going?

20             MR. HARMON:  With the witness, I will be going --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are long past the break.

22             MR. HARMON:  Sorry, I thought it was 10.30, Your Honour, with the

23     break.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's quarter past.

25             MR. HARMON:  I apologise, Your Honour, if I finish with this

Page 4673

 1     answer, then I'll take the break.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on this

 4     particular paragraph.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Second paragraph from the

 6     top.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, interpreters.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I probably did say this in

 9     this manner, and I stand by it, but I need to explain this.  Because I

10     remember and you put this question to me and not Mr. Plazinic.  You

11     didn't ask me on what occasion when we met you meant, whether on the

12     first occasion when we met or the second or the third in Stragari.  It

13     was a generally put question, and that's why my answer was as it was.

14     And then now I've tried to explain that at some later point in time, I

15     learned this from the media.  And what is stated here, what I said to you

16     in Belgrade, is still true.

17             MR. HARMON:  It's an appropriate time for a break, Your Honour.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at five to 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

23             MR. HARMON:

24        Q.   General Curcin, before we broke we were talking about the

25     Stragari facility, and let's stay focused on the Stragari facility.  Did

Page 4674

 1     General Perisic ever visit Mladic at Stragari?

 2        A.   As far as I know, yes, once.

 3        Q.   When was that?

 4        A.   I can't remember precisely, but I believe it was in the early

 5     spring of 1997.

 6        Q.   Again, during that visit --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Excuse me, in the

 8     early autumn of 1997.

 9             MR. HARMON:

10        Q.   During that visit, what position is General Perisic hold in the

11     Yugoslav Army?

12        A.   He was Chief of General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.

13        Q.   And were you with General Perisic when he visited General Mladic

14     on that occasion?

15        A.   I wasn't with him.  I happened to be there, and we met in the

16     same facility at the same time on the same day.

17        Q.   Did you spend the day with General Mladic and General Perisic on

18     that occasion?

19        A.   One could say so.  It started mid-morning, and it lasted until

20     afternoon, so you could say that we spent the majority of that day

21     together.

22        Q.   Could you describe what you did during that day?

23        A.   We weren't together all that time.  We spent some time together.

24     We talked, we walked through the woods, we played some chess.  We also

25     played cards, table tennis.  We had lunch.  And then we walked some more.

Page 4675

 1        Q.   Now, at the time the visit took place at Stragari was

 2     General Perisic aware that there had been indictments issued by this

 3     Tribunal for General Mladic and that there were warrants for his arrest?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this question calls

 6     for speculation on behalf of the witness.  Maybe the question should be

 7     reformulated.

 8             MR. HARMON:  I don't believe it calls for speculation.  If the

 9     witness has a basis to answer, he can answer the question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

11             MR. HARMON:

12        Q.   Can you answer the question, please, General Curcin?

13        A.   I can't, I don't know.

14        Q.   But you were aware of it; correct?

15        A.   Before the break we tried to clarify that I learned much later

16     about the indictment, so I can't really say that in autumn of 1997 I was

17     already aware of it.

18        Q.   Now, did you -- beside the visit that you and General Perisic and

19     General Mladic had together at Stragari, did you hear that

20     General Perisic visited General Mladic at Stragari on other occasions?

21        A.   For the sake of the interpreters maybe I should clarify that this

22     is not Strugari, but rather Stragari.  I'm not sure if he ever visited

23     him.  I wasn't there so I couldn't claim that.

24        Q.   Did you hear from others that he visited on occasions other than

25     the time you were with him, General Perisic and General Mladic, at

Page 4676

 1     Stragari?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Now, as I -- let's talk about the facilities at both Stragari and

 4     Rajac.  Is it standard operating procedure that someone who visits and

 5     stays at those facilities signs a register book, a guest register book,

 6     or records in any fashion his presence at those facilities?

 7        A.   No.  At Stragari, no.  At Rajac, if you stayed there within a set

 8     package, and if you paid for your accommodation, food and so on, you

 9     would be registered in a ledger.  Also you would be issued an invoice for

10     the services and your car registration would also be recorded.  At

11     Stragari this was not the case because this was not the type of facility.

12        Q.   Did General Mladic register either his person or his car or both

13     at the facility at Rajac during his stays at that facility?

14        A.   I really don't know that.

15        Q.   Did you suggest to persons who were at the Rajac facility not to

16     keep records of General Mladic's visits at that facility?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you suggest to persons who were at the Rajac facility not to

19     disseminate information to others about his visits at that facility?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Why did you do that?

22        A.   A large number of people recognised and loved General Mladic, but

23     there were other people who did not respect him and who wanted to give

24     him in, in exchange for some money for certain remuneration.  So at the

25     time it was important that it is not known where General Mladic was at a

Page 4677

 1     given moment of time.  For these security reasons, for the sake of

 2     security of myself and other people who stayed there, other personnel,

 3     soldiers, officers, and also for the sake of security of Mladic himself,

 4     it was sensible to protect this information only to people who really saw

 5     him and who really knew about this.  It was unnecessary to talk about

 6     this with anybody else.  And this is why I told to some people not to

 7     talk about this in front of other people.  This was my advice, fatherly

 8     advice, if you wish.

 9        Q.   So your advice was to avoid the possibility that General Mladic

10     might be arrested on the warrants that were outstanding for him should it

11     be known that he was at the facility at Rajac; is that correct?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a leading

14     question.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

16             MR. HARMON:  I'm just looking for an answer given by the witness,

17     Your Honour.  Your Honour, I'm merely rephrasing a portion of the answer

18     and seeking clarity on his answer that starts at line 16 and ends at

19     line 18.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any response -- any reply, Mr. Lukic?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a wrong

22     conclusion drawn by the Prosecution from something that is actually not

23     included in the answer.  And I believe that the Prosecutor cannot answer

24     the question on the basis of such a conclusion.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you rephrase, Mr. Harmon.

Page 4678

 1             MR. HARMON:  Yes.

 2        Q.   General Curcin, the reason that you asked people not to

 3     disseminate information about General Mladic's whereabouts was because

 4     people might seek to arrest General Mladic and seek to claim the reward

 5     that was outstanding for him; is that correct?

 6        A.   Only up to a certain point.  There were different individuals,

 7     renegades, from the security services, former members of our special

 8     units from Bosnia of NATO or SAS, and they might do this.  We did not

 9     fear that members of our police, of our security units could do that.  He

10     at the time was not scared of these people, and it seems that he was

11     right.

12        Q.   Did you discuss with your superiors and others about the presence

13     of Mladic in the facilities at Rajac and Stragari?

14        A.   No, I did not discuss this either with my superiors or with

15     people to whom I was superior.  I did not discuss this with anybody,

16     neither his presence nor my encounters with him.

17        Q.   Why not?

18        A.   For the same reasons I mentioned before.  Secondly, I was not

19     ordered to do that.  I did not give an order to do that, so there was

20     simply no need for me to discuss this and to involve more people with

21     information as to his whereabouts.

22        Q.   General Curcin, you testified earlier that General Mladic had

23     people with him, including a driver and a cook and security detail.

24     During the war, did General Mladic drive himself, or did he have a driver

25     during the war, personal driver?

Page 4679

 1        A.   Again you're talking about the war in Bosnia, or the war in 1999

 2     in our country?  I don't know because I was not in Bosnia for a long

 3     time.  I was on duty there in 1967.  I was not there thereafter, and I

 4     couldn't tell you whether he had a driver or whether he drove himself, or

 5     possibly he had another type of security.

 6        Q.   On a number of occasions, General Curcin, General Mladic visited

 7     your family in Belgrade, didn't he?  This is after the war ended in

 8     Bosnia.

 9        A.   General Mladic visited me and my family on several occasions and

10     I visited him and his family as well.

11        Q.   Did he have a driver when he visited you and your family in

12     Belgrade, or did he drive himself?

13        A.   I don't know.  When he rang the doorbell, I live upstairs, I

14     really don't know whether he had a driver downstairs in the parking-lot

15     or not.

16        Q.   Do you know the name of General Mladic's personal driver?

17        A.   No, I do not know, and I also think that he changed them.

18        Q.   Does the name Mladen Kenjic mean anything to you, sir?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Does the name Gojko Crnjak mean anything to you?  Do you know

21     that person?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Jovan Djogo?

24        A.   Jovan Djogo?

25        Q.   Yes, sir.

Page 4680

 1        A.   Yes, I knew him, this was a colonel who died several years ago.

 2        Q.   What was his -- what were his responsibilities in respect of

 3     General Mladic?

 4        A.   I don't know, I knew him before in an earlier period of time.

 5        Q.   Do you know an individual by the name of Darko Pecanac?

 6        A.   I do not know a Darko, I know a Pecanac, but I'm not sure whether

 7     his first name was Dragomir or something else.  I know him, but I know

 8     for sure that his first name was not Darko.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, when General Mladic was on the VJ properties at

10     Rajac and later at Stragari and back again, how did he maintain himself

11     in respect of provisions?

12        A.   I don't know that.

13             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Exhibit 615 MFI on the monitor, please.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, you had a document on the

15     screen here earlier.

16             MR. HARMON:  Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The record of the proceedings in Belgrade.  What

18     do you intend doing with that?

19             MR. HARMON:  Could that be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what was the 65 ter number of it?

21             MR. HARMON:  There's none, Your Honour.  I have no 65 ter number

22     for it.  I brought it here not anticipating that I would need to use it

23     as an exhibit, but given the nature of the answers, I put it on the

24     monitor.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic is on his feet.  Let's hear what he has

Page 4681

 1     got to say.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this

 3     statement being included into evidence.  I believe that what Mr. Harmon

 4     wanted to ask in relation to this statement is already in the transcript.

 5     It was read out, and it was included in the transcript.  So I believe

 6     there is no need to include this into evidence as an entire statement

 7     pursuant to your direction number 5.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm in your hands on this.  I'm

10     satisfied to have portions referred to admitted into the record.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know whether the Registrar does know the

12     pages that you referred to.  Certainly page 1 was one of them.  Those

13     pages that were referred to and were shown on the monitor will be

14     admitted into evidence.  May they please be given an exhibit number.  I

15     don't know also without a 65 ter number how Madam Registrar is expected

16     to link the exhibit number she's going to give to this statement,

17     Mr. Harmon.

18             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we have an identification number, it's

19     0614-56 --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's use that.  061?

21             MR. HARMON:  4-5678.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  4-5678.  Fine.  Under that reference, can we give

23     it an exhibit number, please, Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document with identification

25     number 0614-5678 will be Exhibit P2216.

Page 4682

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. HARMON:  There was, Your Honour, another item that was shown

 3     to the witness as well.  It was a record of interview before the

 4     2nd Municipal Court in Belgrade.  I referred to this separate statement

 5     earlier when I was discussing with him under whose jurisdiction the

 6     facility at Rajac fell.  And I referred him to a portion of that

 7     statement.  That has been uploaded into the e-court, and it has a number.

 8     I'm told it has a reference of Curcin's statement, and the Registrar can

 9     identify that statement on the basis of that description.  So I would ask

10     that the portions referred to be given an exhibit number as well.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, I don't know -- yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The same objection, Your Honours.  I

13     believe that in the transcript we already have the reference from these

14     statements, from both these statements.  We have it in the transcript, so

15     I don't see the need to introduce not even a portion of the statement

16     into the transcript.  This is the way I understood your guide-lines.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, we have been doing this right through

18     the trial.  You put up a statement, you ask a few questions, and you

19     tender the document.  We have said that if you have -- if the statement

20     is short and you have exhausted the entire content of the document, then

21     there's no need to tender it because it is there, but if you've just

22     referred to one or two parts of it, then we've always admitted.  Isn't

23     that the guide-line?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, my interpretation of

25     your guide-line, paragraph 5, second sentence, I will read it out where

Page 4683

 1     you say --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have this

 3     guide-line.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "In these situations the quotation

 5     needs to be limited to the part of the transcript," I assume statement,

 6     "which is directly relevant for the question asked."

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, let's read the entire paragraph.  Okay.

 8             "The parties are instead encouraged to quote from the statement

 9     or transcript.  However, the parties are requested to restrict such

10     quoting to situations when it is strictly necessary for the understanding

11     of the question asked.  In such cases, the quote shall be restricted to

12     the part of the transcript that is directly relevant to the question.

13     Furthermore, in referring to your prior statement or testimony, the

14     parties are asked to provide exact page and line references to the

15     statement or transcript in question."

16             The entire paragraph says nothing about what part of the document

17     to admit, and what not to admit.  What whole heading deals with

18     cautioning parties from para-phrasing witness's statements, and thereby

19     embellishing them.  It has nothing to do with admission.  But let me tell

20     -- yeah.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me, the way I understand

22     your guide-lines is not to admit too many documents, too many papers, and

23     this is why in the transcript we already quoted a part of the statement,

24     so I see no need to admit even this part of the statement because it is

25     already in the transcript, and as such, it is part of the case file.

Page 4684

 1     This is the same thing we did when we read out parts of witness

 2     statements from other cases.  So if an interested party reads out a

 3     sentence from a previous transcript and it is entered into the

 4     transcript, then there is no need to include the entire statement into

 5     the evidence.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just give me the authority to that.  Refer me it

 7     to a paragraph in the guide-lines that says so, sir.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you look at paragraph 3.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Harmon, do you see paragraph 3?

11             MR. HARMON:  I do, Your Honour, and I'm satisfied to have just

12     the portion of the statement that was referred to the witness entered

13     into the record, as well as the first page of the statement which is

14     identifying the record of the taking of the statement of the witness.

15     And on that page as well it is an admonition or a description of an

16     admonition that was given at the witness at the time that he gave this

17     statement indicating that he was bound to testify and tell the truth, and

18     he took an oath.

19             So the portions of the statement for which I am seeking admission

20     are just the first page of the document, which is a description of the

21     record of the taking of a statement from the witness and a portion of the

22     reference that deals with the facility at Rajac under his jurisdiction.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem is that that paragraph forbids any

24     admission of the statement at all under those circumstance -- under the

25     circumstances of that paragraph.

Page 4685

 1             MR. HARMON:  All right.  Well, then I will withdraw, then, my

 2     request that this be admitted as an exhibit.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

 4             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Now, General Curcin, I want to turn to another exhibit, or an

 6     exhibit.  It is 615 MFI.

 7             General Curcin, if you could review that document on the screen

 8     before you.  You will have to scroll up at some point.  Scroll down.

 9             Have you finished reviewing the first part of this document,

10     General Curcin?

11        A.   I've seen it, but I have no intention of reading it.  This is the

12     first time I can see this.  Could you please show me the last page of the

13     document.

14        Q.   Do you recognise the signature on the last page of the document?

15        A.   No.  I can see that this was not signed by the commander, but

16     somebody on behalf of the commander.

17        Q.   Okay.  Could you go to the first page of the document.

18             General Curcin, this is a 1st Army headquarters administration

19     document dated the 29th of August, 1997.  It is an order.  It relates to

20     the issuing of moveables and fuel replenishment of VRS vehicles, and as

21     you can see in the first paragraph, it is based on two decisions, orders.

22     One 13-10-9 and another 13-10-12, both of which referred to the issuing

23     of movables and fuel replenishment for vehicles in the VRS.

24             Now, if we go down to paragraph 7, sir.  Go down to paragraph 7

25     in the B/C/S, it's on the previous page at the bottom.  Paragraph 7,

Page 4686

 1     General Curcin, discusses who can authorise the procurement and issuing

 2     of items in the order.  It says:

 3             "Authorisation for the procurement and issuing of these items

 4     based on the request of the 1st Army headquarters administration organ

 5     will be by the 1st Army Chief of Staff, and, in his absence, by the

 6     1st Army chief of operations affairs and training organ."

 7             Now, on the 29th of August, 1997, you were the 1st Army chief of

 8     operations affairs in the training organ, weren't you?

 9        A.   I apologise, but this translation is not fully correct.  And

10     could I once again see the last page before I answer to your question.

11             Yes, indeed, at the time I was chief of operations and training

12     organ at the command of the 1st Army.  My superior was the Chief of Staff

13     of the 1st Army.  At the same time, I was deputy of the Chief of Staff,

14     and I stood for him in all the occasions when he was not present at his

15     job, so I was at the given position.  But this is the first time I'm

16     seeing this order, and I have to say that neither me nor the Chief of

17     Staff received this order.

18             On page 2, you can see whom this was submitted to, so the command

19     of the logistics battalion also duty officer of the headquarter

20     administration duty officer at the barracks and archives.  So neither me

21     nor the Chief of Staff of the army received this document, therefore I

22     cannot say anything about it.  I never saw him which means I probably

23     didn't need it.

24        Q.   Do you know anything about the authorisation of fuel, food, and

25     other items to General Mladic and his entourage while he was staying at

Page 4687

 1     the Rajac facility and at the Stragari facility?

 2        A.   Absolutely not.  I never engaged in logistics.

 3             MR. HARMON:  I have no additional questions, Your Honour.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             Thank you, General Curcin.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.  My name is

 9     Novak Lukic, and I'm the Defence counsel.  And I will now put some

10     questions to you on behalf of General Perisic.

11             You have already testified before this Tribunal and you know that

12     certain sentences have to be interpreted into English for the transcript,

13     and in that respect, I would appeal to you, since we both speak the same

14     language, to wait, to pause for a few moments before you provide your

15     answer, and I will also pause after your answer before I put my question.

16     And if you observe the transcript, once the transcript is -- once

17     actually there is no transcript running, you can start with giving your

18     answers.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Harmon asked you at the outset about your testimony --

20     earlier testimonies and your statements, and he also mentioned the

21     proceedings where you testified before the 2nd District Court, before the

22     investigating judge in the case Govedarica.  My question is this, after

23     this statement were you you ever again summoned to testify again before

24     this court in those proceedings?

25        A.   Good afternoon.  Good morning.  That's one.

Page 4688

 1             Secondly, I never made any statements up until now, and the ones

 2     that I did sign were not really my true and authentic statements.  They

 3     were actually the summaries provided by the Judge in the district court.

 4     They were produced by the Judge, and I was never shown these statements,

 5     nor did I get -- have an opportunity to read them.

 6        Q.   Well, my question was actually somewhat different.  In these

 7     proceedings against Govedarica and others, and this was a rather well

 8     known trial, it was called in the media, the Mladic supporters, were you

 9     ever summoned to testify in those proceedings again?

10        A.   No, never.

11        Q.   In both of these statements you mentioned something that I would

12     now like you to expand upon a bit.  Were you in any way harassed, or was

13     any pressure exerted on you before any of these statements?

14        A.   Yes, I was.  I was harassed by people from the special department

15     for organised crime, for war crimes and others, and I was called on

16     several occasions for interviews as a citizen.  I was never provided any

17     record of those interviews.  My apartment was searched by members of the

18     special MUP units, the department for the fight against terrorism and

19     crime.  Some of my personal belongings were then taken and away and never

20     returned.  And for my and my family this was a very difficult thing

21     because reporters came to our door; they rang on our door bell; they

22     tried to speak to my wife; they showed -- they even published our photos

23     in the newspapers.  And for this reason I was forced to move to another

24     apartment.

25        Q.   Could you please tell us when this was in relation to the date of

Page 4689

 1     this statement.  And let me just remind you when you made this statement

 2     in the Govedarica case; this was on the 1st of August, 2006.  So in

 3     relation to that date, when were these things happening, the things that

 4     you described a moment ago?

 5        A.   All of this happened before May 1st of the same year, and on the

 6     5th or 6th of May, my apartment was searched, nine individuals came to

 7     search the apartment.

 8        Q.   We won't go into detail on that.  Now, let us discuss the period

 9     that you've also discussed with Mr. Harmon at the beginning.  So let's

10     talk about 1997 and 1998.  At this time you were the chief of operations

11     and training, and deputy Chief of Staff of the 1st Army; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Your status, position and function that you performed at the time

14     had nothing to do with General Mladic's stay in these facilities, in the

15     military facilities; correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   And you never met him on an official basis at this time?

18        A.   Absolutely not.

19        Q.   I believe you confirmed this to Mr. Harmon today, but you had no

20     knowledge as to how Mr. Mladic came to those facilities or who organised

21     his stay there?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Would you know perhaps who was in charge of Mladic's security?

24        A.   He, himself.  In the army, the security detail is always under

25     the command of the individual for whom it is providing security.  So in

Page 4690

 1     this particular instance, he was the sole commander of this security

 2     detail.

 3        Q.   Per establishment in the Yugoslav Army, which individuals were

 4     entitled to security, to personal security details?

 5        A.   The close protection was something that was entitlement of the

 6     army commanders, corps commanders.  And all other types of security were

 7     not real or standard security, but rather service provided to the

 8     individuals.  For instance, I was colonel general; I was not entitled to

 9     any security detail.  I did have a driver and a secretary who came with

10     me if I needed him.  For instance, if I went to inspect the area of

11     responsibility or something of that sort.

12        Q.   When you met Mr. Mladic, and again I'm talking about 1997 and

13     1998, you met with him as you already mentioned as a personal friend;

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You know that he had an apartment in Belgrade?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At this time in 1997, 1998?

19        A.   Yes, at this time.  He still owns the apartment.

20        Q.   At this time did you also visit him in his apartment in Belgrade,

21     more specifically, after you met him at Rajac which was in July 1997, as

22     you said, and let's say, for instance, up until on the eve of the NATO

23     bombing, let's say March 1999, so let me ask you this, in that period,

24     did you see him in his apartment in Belgrade?

25        A.   Yes.  And tomorrow will be the tenth anniversary of the NATO

Page 4691

 1     strikes against our country.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell me approximately how many times in this

 3     period did you meet with him in his apartment?

 4        A.   I met him on a number of occasions, more than two or three, in

 5     his apartment in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   It was frequently reported in the media that Mladic was sighted

 7     in public places at this time.  Do you know whether Ratko Mladic ever

 8     attended any public events in this period?  There was often -- there were

 9     many reports that he was seen at some football matches, could you recall

10     any of this?

11        A.   Yes, he attended at least two soccer matches, the

12     Greece-Yugoslavia match and the Yugoslavia-Croatia match which we

13     attended together at the Red Star stadium in Belgrade.

14        Q.   Did he conceal or in any way try to change his appearance at this

15     time in order not to be observed?

16        A.   No, he didn't.

17        Q.   How often did you meet with Mladic?

18        A.   I cannot tell you precisely, but sometimes it would be once, or

19     once in two months or once in three months at times.  This would happen

20     either at my home or at his home or in a cafe or a football match or in

21     Rajac or Stragari.

22             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Could we now please show on the

23     monitors the first statement, that's page 3 of the B/C/S version, the

24     statement of August 1st, 2006, please.  And I believe it is the same

25     page --

Page 4692

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is your reference number for that statement,

 2     sir?  The 65 ter number?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since it wasn't on the 65 ter list,

 4     the number is --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Perhaps I could help, Your Honour.  There was no 65

 7     ter number.  It was referred to as Curcin's statement, and the Registrar

 8     can identify the statement through that description.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I would like to ask you about your last time when you saw him in

12     the paragraph -- the penultimate paragraph where you say, When we met for

13     the last time, he told me that we would no longer be able to see each

14     other for my sake, for his sake, and for the sake of his families.  He

15     appeared far more cautious at this time, and this is what he looked like.

16     He had been like that since Milosevic's arrest.

17             Does this reflect approximately what you stated before the

18     investigating judge at the time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know when approximately Slobodan Milosevic was arrested?

21        A.   The 31st of March, 2000, and he was delivered to The Hague on the

22     20th of June of the same year.

23        Q.   And in your statement you mentioned that there was a change in

24     Mladic's conduct before and after Milosevic's arrest.  Could you tell us

25     how you came to this conclusion.  Did he mention anything?  Did he say

Page 4693

 1     that he was apprehensive?

 2        A.   Yes.  He did say something to that effect to me, and I also could

 3     draw the conclusion myself.  Because on the night when Mr. Milosevic was

 4     arrested, he was in his own home, in his own apartment, and that night he

 5     left, and I did not see him anymore.  But when I saw him later on and

 6     spoke with him, he was visibly concerned for his security and the

 7     security of his close -- the people close to him.  And he was determined

 8     not to surrender alive.  You know, at this time, the distance between

 9     Rajac and Stragari was under half an hour by helicopter.  Had NATO known

10     that he was there, nothing would have stopped it to fly over the border

11     and arrest Mladic and take him to Bosnia by disabling the people around

12     him.

13             In addition, we also knew that he, in particular, but also me

14     through some official assessments, we knew that there were various

15     specialist teams of former and current members of various security and

16     intelligence agencies, in addition to NATO pact and other intelligence

17     services who were in pursuit of General Mladic.

18             There were also some men in our surroundings, when I say our

19     surroundings, I mean Serbia, who would have done this for money.  Who

20     were looking for Mladic for money.  And in the event they did catch up

21     with him, they would probably surrender him or kill him.  And we have

22     information that at least one individual was kidnapped from one of our

23     mountains, two men were arrested in Obrenovac in broad daylight, and so

24     on and so forth.

25        Q.   When you say that one individual was arrested on a mountain top,

Page 4694

 1     I will ask you about this.  Now, if you recall, there were a lot of

 2     reports on the media on this, that Todorovic was captured on Zlatibor in

 3     1998 and delivered to The Hague where he was tried.

 4        A.   Well, if you allow me, he was not arrested; he was kidnapped.

 5        Q.   I would like to put another fact to you with respect to this

 6     topic.  Your statement number 2, that's 0614-5678.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  Could we please display this on the

 8     monitors.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do we do with the first statement, Mr. Lukic?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to have

11     this in transcript.  And I just wanted to point out the portion of this.

12        Q.   Sir, I believe this was a portion of this statement that

13     Mr. Harmon also questioned you about.  Just a moment.  This is, I

14     believe, on page -- I apologise, my correction.  So let's go back to

15     statement number 1, page 3.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask something, I just

17     saw a few minutes ago that I made the statement regarding the case The

18     Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, this is the first

19     time that I seen this or heard of this.  This is a trick.  Nothing --

20     none of this was mentioned to me in Belgrade.  And I don't know if I

21     would have said anything had I known this.  And the same is true of my

22     first statement relating to the Govedarica case.  This is a record of

23     some interviews relating to some other cases and having nothing to do

24     with The Hague cases.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I believe you've already made that

Page 4695

 1     clear to Mr. Harmon during the examination-in-chief, that you were not

 2     aware of this when you were questioned by investigating Judge Plazinic.

 3             Now, could we please go back to statement number 1 of 1st August,

 4     2006, on page 3, the same page in the English version.

 5        Q.   The third paragraph from the top starts "in answer to the public

 6     Prosecutor's question, as to why I broke off contact with him, and this

 7     relates to Mladic who is mentioned in the previous paragraph.  So you say

 8     the following:

 9             "In answer to the public Prosecutors's question as to why I broke

10     off contact with him, I can say that it was because he officially retired

11     on the 1st of March, 2002.  And on 1st April that year The Law on

12     Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal was passed, and he no longer wished

13     to see me both for his sake and for my own."

14             Does this reflect your words before the Judge?

15        A.   Yes, and there is something to the same effect in the other

16     statement as well.

17        Q.   Why, according to you, was there a change in Mladic's behaviour

18     once this law on cooperation with The Hague Tribunal was passed?

19        A.   After The Law on Cooperation with the Tribunal was passed, we

20     were no longer in contact of any sort because this law made it incumbent

21     upon our country and its organs, and also on us to abide by it.  And this

22     is why he became very reserved towards everyone, and very few people

23     actually saw him since that moment on.  I, myself, never did.

24        Q.   But my question is, before this law on cooperation with The Hague

25     Tribunal was passed, were you aware, and there was a lot of -- there were

Page 4696

 1     many reports in the media on this, that our laws did not allow for the

 2     surrender of our citizens to The Hague Tribunal, the laws that were in

 3     force then?

 4        A.   Yes, I was aware of this, especially after the case with

 5     Mr. Milosevic.  And this is true even now because as we can see this

 6     young man was not surrendered to the United States, this young man who

 7     was involved in some fight, Mr. Kovacevic.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you were interpreted in your question

 9     as saying that our laws did not allow for the surrender of our citizens

10     to the Tribunal.  Who are your laws and your citizens?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise, I wasn't precise

12     enough.  The laws of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The constitution of the Federal

14     Republic of Yugoslavia.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I did not interfere, but you are correct, that's how I should

17     have posited it.  So the constitution of the Federal Republic of

18     Yugoslavia, which was in force then and still is in force, prohibits the

19     surrender of our citizens to any other countries, to a third countries.

20     And since there was no law on cooperation with The Hague Tribunal, the

21     position then was that that related to The Hague Tribunal as well, the

22     prohibition of surrender.

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   Do you know of the decision of 1998 of the Supreme Court, which

25     explicitly prohibited the surrender of Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic to

Page 4697

 1     The Hague Tribunal?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can we agree then that once The Law on Cooperation with The Hague

 4     Tribunal was passed in 2002, the position of our authorities as regards

 5     the individuals who were indicted by The Hague Tribunal changed, both

 6     legally and factually?

 7        A.   Yes, but also the government changed, and it is true both that

 8     the government changed but also the position of the government in

 9     relation to that changed as well.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment, please.

11             Just one correction, Your Honour.  I asked on page 56, line 10

12     the prohibition of surrender of Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin, that was

13     the case against the Vukovar three or the Vukovar Trojka that was rather

14     present in the media, And Sljivancanin was the third individual.

15        Q.   Based on my earlier question on the change of the position of the

16     authorities regarding The Hague indictees after the passage of The Law on

17     the Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal, does this mean that at the time

18     before this law had been passed and especially in the period before the

19     regime change, in other words while Milosevic was still in power, that

20     Mladic was not afraid of our authorities, or rather of the authorities of

21     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that he didn't fear that they would

22     extradite him or surrender him?

23        A.   That's correct.

24             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object, Your Honour, to the question or

25     the form of the question.  It calls for a legal conclusion by this

Page 4698

 1     witness, and on that basis, I object.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I simply asked the witness what he

 4     knew based on the fact that he, himself, put forward that there was a

 5     change in Mladic's behaviour after the adoption of The Law on Cooperation

 6     with The Hague Tribunal.  I suppose this has nothing to do with legal

 7     conclusions but rather factual conclusions as relates to Mladic's conduct

 8     before and after this law, and that is what the witness understood me to

 9     ask -- me to mean with my question.  So this is no -- this has nothing to

10     do with legal facts.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any reply, Mr. Harmon?

12             MR. HARMON:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will reiterate the question.

15             Your Honour, there's no need to reiterate the question.  The

16     question was answered by the witness.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  That's right.  Thank

18     you.

19        Q.   In your answer to Mr. Harmon's question earlier today, you saw a

20     part of your statement in which you said that Mladic was an officer of

21     the Yugoslav Army until the year 2002.  Now, I will ask several questions

22     concerning this topic.

23             I assume that you know what was the position of Mr. Mladic during

24     the war in Bosnia and where he was.

25        A.   Yes, I know what was his position.  I do not know where he was

Page 4699

 1     exactly.  Moreover, he changed his location very frequently.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You will tell me when it is a convenient time.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I thought it would be

 4     one and a half hour, but maybe the time would be convenient now before we

 5     start with the new topic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's take the break and come back at half past

 7     12:00.  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   General, I asked you just before the break whether you knew what

13     was the position of Mr. Ratko Mladic during the war in Bosnia.  More

14     specifically, I would like to ask you whether you knew that he was

15     commander of the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You answered to Mr. Harmon and you said that he was member of the

18     Yugoslav Army, so now I would kindly ask you to put on the screen P204

19     [as interpreted].  I don't believe you saw this document earlier, so I

20     would like you to take a look at it, and then I will ask two questions.

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  Yes.  It's P2024.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic, P2024.  Is that an exhibit?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I'm sorry.  My apologies to you, my

25     apologies.

Page 4700

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   General, have you seen this document before?

 3        A.   No, I haven't.

 4        Q.   I would like to ask a few questions without reading the entire

 5     document, but from this decree of the then President of the Republika

 6     Srpska Madam Plavsic, dated 8th of November, 1996, General Mladic was

 7     revealed of his prior duty -- was released of his prior duty.  Could you

 8     please explain these acronyms.  It says thus far by RF and MF.  Could you

 9     tell us what these acronyms mean.

10        A.   Yes, this is the usual decree of the President of the republic.

11     MF means peaceful establishment.  RF means war-time establishment.

12        Q.   So until this 8 of November, 1996, per establishment, he was

13     commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  And in the

14     introduction, if you agree with me, when this decision was made, they

15     quoted The Law on Army of the Republika Srpska; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  And with this decision he was not retired, but he was given

17     to the disposal of the General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   Yes, thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Now, I would kindly ask you,

20     Your Honours, to turn into private session for the next document.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, maybe I'm a bit slow to

22     understand what is happening here.  This decree says that the following

23     are being released from the up-to-date duty and put at the disposal of

24     the VRS General Staff.  But later it also says "up until now, according

25     to the RF, war-time formation, and the peacetime formation was commander

Page 4701

 1     of the VRS Main Staff."  What is changing here?  The only change I see is

 2     that General Staff is called Main Staff.  But up until that time if he

 3     was the commander of the General Staff of the VRS, he was at the disposal

 4     of the VRS.  How does he get put to the disposal of the VRS when he is

 5     already there?  That's my question.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, Judge Moloto would like to know if he already was within

 8     the Main Staff of the VRS, how come that he was still at the disposal of

 9     the Main Staff of the VRS after this date?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How come he is now being put to the disposal of an

11     institution to which he already had been -- at whose disposal he had

12     already been.  It seems to be a redundant order.  Yes, that's what I want

13     explained.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try.  Up until this moment,

15     his position was certain following a decree, he was placed as a commander

16     of the Main Staff of the VRS.  After this moment, after the adoption of

17     this decree, he was not at that position anymore.  He was simply put to

18     the disposal of the Main Staff of the VRS who could decide how to use

19     him, as an advisor, as a special advisor, or maybe something else.  So

20     the President of the country hereby authorised commander of the

21     Main Staff of the VRS to resolve his status, his position.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was the commander of the Main Staff at this time

23     himself?  Was it not himself?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the interpreter made a

25     correction already, VRS we are talking about.

Page 4702

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until that moment, he was commander

 2     of the Main Staff of the VRS.  After this moment once this decree was

 3     submitted to him, he was at the disposal of the Main Staff which could

 4     decide how to use him in the future, how to engage him in the future.

 5     But he was not retired, so he was still in the service.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was he being removed from the position of the

 7     commander of the Main Staff?  Does this order remove him from the command

 8     of the Main Staff?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why doesn't it say so?  He doesn't say so

11     explicitly.  It just says he is put at the disposal of the VRS.  He was

12     at their disposal already up until this time as their commander, as the

13     commander of the Main Staff.  I think we are putting an interpretation

14     here which is not apparent from this document.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, but this was written in

16     the cabinet of the President of the Republika Srpska.  Maybe they did not

17     -- they were not fluent enough with military terminology.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Put it this way:  He is the commander of the

19     Main Staff.  He is being now told in his capacity as commander that he

20     must now place this person at the disposal of the Main Staff to do what

21     it likes with him.  What do we expect him to do?  I would put myself at

22     the disposal of the place as commander of the Main Staff once more.  What

23     else can I do?  Unless it specifically says you are being removed from

24     that position, and which it doesn't say.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apology, but it seems to me that

Page 4703

 1     it is stated.  Here in capital letters, you can see, The following are

 2     being released from their up-to-date duty.  In other words, as of this

 3     moment, he was no more commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  He could

 4     -- he did not have any more authority to command or issue any orders.

 5     Once he was put on disposal, then the new commander of the Main Staff

 6     could order him what to do, to act as his deputy or anything else.  And

 7     once again the new commander had to make a proposal of the decree to the

 8     President of the Republika Srpska, and it had to be decided by a decree

 9     of the President of the Republika Srpska.  So as of this moment he had no

10     more authority to command.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We will interpret it the way we interpret

12     it, you go ahead.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I do not want to act as a witness, but I would like to make my

15     contribution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I will ask a question, yes.  It says here thus far for peaceful

19     establishment and war-time establishment, does it mean that until the

20     moment when this decree was issued, he was commander of the Main Staff.

21     But in the title of the document we can see that as of that moment he was

22     put at the disposal of the VRS General Staff; is that correct?

23        A.   Absolutely.

24        Q.   I hope we've clarified this issue.

25             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Now, I would kindly ask us to see

Page 4704

 1     another document, but for that we need a private session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4705

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4706

 1        Q.   General, the Army of Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav Army, were

 2     these two separate armies?

 3        A.   Yes.  The Yugoslav Army and the Army of Republika Srpska were

 4     entirely separate --

 5             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object.  This goes beyond the scope of

 6     the direct examination.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is in line with your guide-lines

 9     on the use of cross-examination for the topics which are relevant for the

10     Defence.  And I believe that this is the fundamental issue in this

11     particular case.  I believe that that particular part of your guide-lines

12     was accorded with the rules of evidence and examination.  It says that

13     the cross-examination needs to be limited to the examination-in-chief,

14     but also that it needs to concern the topics which are relevant for the

15     party to present its case.

16             Your Honours, Guide-line 8 which quotes the rules of procedure

17     and evidence where you quoted these rules directly.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you done?  Mr. Harmon, any response?

19             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour.  This witness came to testify

20     about events that took place post-war in Stragari; his evidence was

21     limited to that.  Now this is changing the fundamental nature of the

22     evidence with this witness, and I object on the basis that it exceeds the

23     scope of the direct examination.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is overruled.  Mr. Harmon, you did

25     ask this witness if Mr. Mladic retired as a member of the VJ.

Page 4707

 1             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, may I just make one observation.  I

 2     agree, I did raise that point, Your Honour.  But the question that was

 3     asked was now a slightly different question.  The question that is asked

 4     is whether the VRS and the VJ were separate armies.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are overruled, Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I will repeat my question.  Just a second, please.

 9             General, were the Yugoslav Army and the Army of Republika Srpska

10     two separate armies?

11        A.   Yes.  The Army of Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav Army were two

12     totally separate armies or armed forces.  True, they were the only

13     friendly armed forces.  At the time we had no other armed force that was

14     friendly to us, and they had no other except us.

15        Q.   You said that you know or assumed that Mr. Ratko Mladic received

16     a salary and certain benefits from the Yugoslav authorities; correct?

17        A.   Yes.  Via the IT centre of the finance service of the Ministry of

18     Defence.

19        Q.   And this was the reason why you said earlier that you considered

20     him to be a member of the Yugoslav Army because some of his status issues

21     were related to the Yugoslav Army.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am not going to allow that question.  The

23     witness never said "I considered him to be."  He said he was.  He was

24     never asked to explain why he said he was a member of the VJ.  He just

25     said he was retired as a VJ member.  That's it.

Page 4708

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  That's

 2     correct, I apologise.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will leave this subject.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  I apologise

 7     to the interpreters.

 8        Q.   So, Witness, could you please answer my question.  Why did you

 9     consider that Mr. Mladic was a member of the Yugoslav Army?

10        A.   Because he received a salary via the IT centre and --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I believe that question was asked

13     earlier by Mr. Lukic.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  And it was disallowed, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

16        Q.   My question is, why did you say in your earlier statement that

17     Mr. Ratko Mladic was a member of the Yugoslav Army?

18        A.   Because he had a health insurance card of the same sort like our

19     officers.  He could be treated in the health institutions at the military

20     medical academy.  He received his salary via the IT centre of the

21     Ministry of Defence.  And I think that in this way, through these

22     structures, he was issued this decree on his retirement on the 8th of

23     March, 2002.  That is the reason why I said something to that effect.

24        Q.   Do you mean a decree by the President of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia?

Page 4709

 1        A.   Yes, of Yugoslavia because it had to be certified in a way the

 2     decree by the President of Republika Srpska, Biljana Plavsic, had to be

 3     certified in a way, in this manner.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I will now move to another topic.

 5             In answer to Mr. Harmon's question about Mr. Perisic's visit at

 6     Rajac, you mentioned -- I think you said that Perisic was on his way or

 7     had been in Kostunici.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what Kostunici is

 8     and how far from Rajac it is, if you know.

 9        A.   Kostunici is a village with -- consisting of several small

10     hamlets, some 20, 25, or even 30 kilometres away from Rajac, from the

11     facility at Rajac.

12        Q.   Do you know the reason for Mr. Perisic's trip to Kostunici?

13        A.   Yes, and he said so himself.  He told me that he had been there

14     to visit his mother who was alive at the time and that he was on his way

15     to Belgrade.

16        Q.   Do you know during Mr. Mladic's stay at Rajac in this period, do

17     you know if he ventured out of the facilities, whether he went to the

18     nearby hamlets or villages?

19        A.   Yes, I do know something about that.  He did go.  After awhile

20     upon his arrival at the facility, this being a very small facility, which

21     did not provide a lot of opportunity for long walks and hiking, Mladic

22     went to Milanovac.  Or he started hiking; he walked towards Milanovac on

23     the road.  And he wanted to see, he told me, what the reaction of the

24     local people would be when they saw him.  He was pleasantly surprised

25     because some of the villagers from the area would stop to say hello to

Page 4710

 1     him, those who recognised him.  Of course there were others who did not

 2     recognise him.

 3        Q.   From this, I can conclude that he did not try in any manner to

 4     disguise?

 5        A.   No, he didn't, and there's an interesting detail here that I can

 6     mention.  About 100 metres away from there, a retired Muslim officer had

 7     a house nearby, and he, too, stopped to say hello to him, to shake hands

 8     with him, and to exchange a few words.  That was on one occasion.

 9        Q.   Do you know the close protection unit, the body-guards, do you

10     know if they were members of the Yugoslav Army?  Did you have any

11     information regarding that?

12        A.   I don't have any certain information as to their being members of

13     the Yugoslav Army, except that they had Yugoslav uniforms on.

14        Q.   And one final question, do you know, and I'm talking about the

15     period in 1997, 1998, whether Ratko Mladic had any position or post

16     within the establishment of the Yugoslav Army?

17        A.   No, absolutely not.  He didn't have any establishment post within

18     the Army of Yugoslavia.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.  Thank

22     you, sir.

23             And thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25             Yes, Mr. Harmon

Page 4711

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Harmon:

 2        Q.   General Curcin, you indicated in your evidence that

 3     General Mladic, members of his close security detail had uniforms of --

 4     VJ uniforms on.  Your evidence earlier was the following:

 5             "In the army ..."  And I'm referring to page 49, starting at line

 6     10.  "In the army" -- let me go back.  Line 9:

 7             "Would you perhaps -- know perhaps who was in charge of Mladic's

 8     security?"

 9             And your answer was:  "He, himself.  In the army the security

10     detail is always under the command of the individual for whom it is

11     providing security.  So in this particular instance, he was the sole

12     commander of this security detail."

13             Does that mean, General Curcin, that General Mladic could give

14     orders to VJ soldiers who were guarding him, who were in his security

15     detail?

16        A.   No.  And I didn't say anything of that sort, nor did I mean that.

17     If we could look at that entire transcript from that portion, maybe I

18     could give you further details.  I never said that Mladic had a uniform

19     on.  I didn't say that today or in my earlier statements, and you did

20     mention that in your --

21        Q.   I think you misunderstood the question I asked, General Curcin.

22     I didn't say that General Mladic had a uniform on.  I said that members

23     of his security detail had VJ uniforms on; isn't that correct?

24        A.   No, that's not correct.  Could you please read the transcript

25     word for word.  Please do it for your own benefit.

Page 4712

 1        Q.   Let's be perfectly clear on this.  Is your testimony now,

 2     General Curcin, that the members of General Mladic's security unit were

 3     not wearing VJ uniforms?

 4        A.   No, I'm not saying that they weren't wearing the uniforms.  I'm

 5     saying that they weren't -- I'm not saying that they were members of the

 6     Yugoslav Army.  In other words, I'm claiming here in full responsibility

 7     that they were not members of the Yugoslav Army.  Whether they had those

 8     uniforms or not, or whether they had some combined uniforms, because it

 9     was winter, it was rather cool then, and maybe they had dis-paired pieces

10     of uniform, but I never said and I never would that they were members,

11     and I claim that they were not members of the Yugoslav Army.

12        Q.   So if people -- well, let me ask you this question,

13     General Curcin.  Was General Mladic -- did he have the capacity to

14     command members of his security detail?  As you indicated in your

15     evidence at page 49 that:

16             "The security detail is always under the command of the

17     individual for whom it is providing security.  So in this particular

18     instance, he was the sole commander of the security detail."

19             My question, General Curcin, was the people who were guarding

20     General Mladic, did he have command authority over members of his

21     security detail?  Yes or no?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were members of his security detail wearing uniforms of the VJ

24     when you were with him?

25        A.   At times, yes.

Page 4713

 1        Q.   All right.  Let me turn to a different part of your evidence,

 2     General Curcin.  Page 52 starting at line 23, you said:

 3             "In addition, we also knew that he, in particular, but also me

 4     through some official assessments, we knew that there were various

 5     specialist teams of the former and current members of various security

 6     and intelligence agencies in addition to NATO pact and other intelligence

 7     services who were in pursuit of General Mladic."

 8             Now, I want to focus your attention, General Curcin, on the

 9     official assessments that you just described.  What official assessments

10     were you aware of and did you just testify about?

11        A.   Did I use the word "official assessments" in the context that you

12     are now putting to me?  I'm not sure.  And I would like to see that

13     portion of the transcript where my whole sentence is shown.

14        Q.   I just quoted your whole sentence, General Curcin.  I'll read it

15     to you again:

16             "In addition, we also knew that he, in particular, but also me

17     through some official assessments, we knew that there were various

18     specialist teams ..." essentially who were after him.  My question to

19     you, General Curcin, is what official assessments are you talking about?

20        A.   Am I relieved, I don't know if I have waiver to answer this

21     question.  I'm not sure that this question was on the list of the

22     questions that you submitted to the national council.

23        Q.   Sir, you provided the answer to the question of Mr. Lukic.  My

24     question to you, sir, is what official assessments were you referring to?

25        A.   Each week at least once there is a collegium at a commander's

Page 4714

 1     office at a certain level.  The first item on the agenda is always the

 2     assessment of the intelligence officer on the situation in the

 3     neighbouring countries, the NATO pact, and so on.  The next item is the

 4     assessment of security organs on events and possible threats to security

 5     of certain units or commands within the army.  And then there are certain

 6     other items that are being discussed where both I and others present

 7     propose certain measures.  So we did have certain official assessments

 8     about what the NATO pact was about to do, what kind of preparations were

 9     underway for the aggression, how NATO was bringing in troops to the

10     neighbouring countries, Macedonia and Greece and so on.  So we had

11     information on such possible groups that could be inserted and perhaps

12     threaten the security of our individual units or commands.  That's what I

13     meant specifically.

14        Q.   So the assessments about units who could arrest General Mladic,

15     you were aware of those assessments, weren't you?

16        A.   No, we did not discuss General Mladic.  His name was never

17     mentioned at any of these collegiums.  But it was sufficient to learn

18     from the security administration that so and so was underway or such and

19     such preparations were being done, that certain groups were going to be

20     inserted in order to capture certain individuals, that they would carry

21     out sabotage and terrorist activities creating instability and insecurity

22     in the area because of Kosovo, and so on and so forth.  This is why I

23     drew my own conclusions that among all these groups, it is possible that

24     there would be a group inserted for this particular objective.  After

25     all, during the NATO bombing in 1999, three of our officers who are

Page 4715

 1     wearing uniforms were arrested and then later returned.

 2        Q.   General Curcin, you were aware of the assessments that certain

 3     units and specialist teams were after General Mladic at the time you

 4     visited General Mladic at Rajac and Stragari; isn't that correct?

 5        A.   No, that is not correct.  I was not aware of it, but I assumed

 6     knowing how these special groups operate, that this was not impossible.

 7     Especially because it was only a 30-minute helicopter flight from the

 8     Bosnian border.

 9        Q.   That was precisely the reason, General Curcin, with you wanted to

10     keep quiet the location of General Mladic on the VJ facilities.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is turning into

13     cross-examination.  This is a leading question.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm seeking to clarify the answer that

16     was given by the witness earlier in terms of putting it in a time-frame.

17     He has testified that there were official assessments, now I'm trying to

18     put it in a time-frame.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you meant that we produce

21     these assessments only at this period of time, you are wrong.  We did

22     this throughout the period, before the NATO aggression, after it.  We

23     always made assessments as to the possible threats to our country's

24     security.  And that is only one of the issues before certain measures

25     would be taken at certain military and state levels.  But there was never

Page 4716

 1     any mention made in any sense with respect to Mladic either at our

 2     collegium meetings or the General Staff meetings.

 3             And to be even more specific, all -- all the records of the

 4     collegium meetings up until 1999 were included in the file case of the --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what file case the

 6     witness was referring to.

 7             MR. HARMON:

 8        Q.   General Curcin, the interpreter didn't hear what file case you

 9     were referring to when you testified that all of the records of the

10     collegium meetings and up until 1999 were included in the file case of

11     the ... and then we have no interpretation.  Can you repeat your answer,

12     please.

13        A.   Yes.  Milutinovic, Sainovic, Ojdanic, Lazarevic, Perisic, and

14     Lukic case.

15        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer.  The question that you

16     were answering was that the records of the collegium up until 1999 were

17     included in the file case of ... Whose file cases were they kept in?

18        A.   I don't know whose file cases, but in the case Prosecutor versus

19     President Milutinovic, vice-President Sainovic, General Ojdanic,

20     General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, and police General Lukic.

21        Q.   I'm still not clear on your answer, General.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  General, all these people were charged in one

23     case, or were they charged in several cases?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all in one case on one

25     indictment, and recently the judgement was passed.

Page 4717

 1             MR. HARMON:  I see.  Okay.  Then I had a different concept than

 2     you had.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I realised that too.

 4             MR. HARMON:  I appreciate Your Honours's intervention.  Thank

 5     you.  I have no additional questions.  Thank you.

 6             JUDE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE PICARD:  [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are getting no translation of the Judge's

10     questions.  Is there anybody who is supposed to translate from French to

11     English, or don't we have that?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is that you, ma'am?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, sir.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you having problems with your --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  No, sir, it's all right now, I apologise.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not a problem.  Thank you so much.

18             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Seems that I caught the

19     interpreter by surprise.  So I will repeat my question.  You said first

20     that General Mladic received his salary from the Yugoslav Army from

21     Serbia, you said the Ministry of Defence.  You've said also that he had

22     health insurance from Yugoslavia and social security that he could be

23     treated in Yugoslavia by Yugoslav doctors.  Also, he resided in

24     facilities that were used by the members of the Yugoslav Army.  In

25     addition, we know, and you've also told us that he had body-guards, in

Page 4718

 1     other words, security guards who also wore uniforms of the Yugoslav Army.

 2             And finally, you were asked, or in answer to a question that was

 3     put to you, you said that the Yugoslav Army and the Army of Republika

 4     Srpska were two completely separate armies, and I find that rather

 5     surprising in view of all the practical details that seem to indicate

 6     that General Mladic was, by all accounts, materially dependent or

 7     financially dependent on Yugoslavia.  So how can you then after all of

 8     this state that these two armies were totally separate?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] With all due respect, there are many statements

10     here, but I don't know if that was necessary.  Let me just answer this

11     last portion of the question.  There were several minor questions that I

12     detected during your question.  Let me put it this way.

13             I've said somewhere at some point, and maybe you can assist me

14     with this, if needed, that General Mladic received his salary via the IT

15     centre of the finance service of the Ministry of Defence of Yugoslavia.

16     Now, who it was that actually put the money into that fund for these

17     purposes, I don't know.  But the fact is that he received, in his

18     chequing account, every month he received a certain amount from this

19     centre.

20             A few years ago the state made a decision to ban the further

21     payments of the salary to his wife.  This is something that is now under

22     review, and it will probably be resolved, probably at the request of the

23     Tribunal.  I still claim that the Army of Republika Srpska and the

24     Yugoslav Army are two totally separate armed forces.  And it will be

25     proven, I'm sure, without any doubt, both in this case and in other cases

Page 4719

 1     because that is a fact.

 2             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] So it was common for an army

 3     which had nothing to do with another army pays for the salaries of the

 4     members of the other army, allows them to use their own premises, and use

 5     their health services and so on, so this is something that is common

 6     practice among armies?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] Well, I never said that they provided the

 8     security detail, nor is that in my statement anywhere.  You can't find

 9     that in my statements.  If someone is wearing a uniform of a certain

10     army, it doesn't mean that he is a member of that army.

11             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I apologise, but I do have to

12     interrupt.  You did not say that the body-guards were members of the

13     Yugoslav Army; you actually did not state that.  But you did say that

14     they wore Yugoslav Army uniforms.  Is it standard practice that

15     Yugoslav Army facilities are visited by members who are not members of

16     the Yugoslav Army but who wear the uniforms of the Yugoslav Army and that

17     leaving no one perplexed?

18        A.   [Interpretation] Well, they would probably be more perplexed if

19     they saw members wearing some other uniforms, that would have been

20     something that they would have noticed.  So had they been there in

21     uniforms of the Republika Srpska army wearing their insignia, this would

22     indicate that there was -- that there were members of some paramilitary

23     group on the premises of the Yugoslav Army which could cause some damage

24     or ill.  Because this way they would draw attention to themselves.  But

25     the it was, there was nothing more natural than that wearing the Yugoslav

Page 4720

 1     Army uniforms because that would not draw anyone's attention.

 2             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Well, again, I have to ask why

 3     was it necessary not to draw anyone's attention?  Because as you said

 4     yourself, in 1999 -- 1997, you did not even know, or you didn't know

 5     whether the Tribunal was after him.  So why was it so important not to

 6     draw his attention or anyone's attention to his presence, especially in

 7     view that he moved around freely and was seen in villages in the

 8     surrounding area?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] Well, I think that many journalists even our

10     journalists would come and be prepared to film him in order to make some

11     money from foreign media outlets, and that would have maybe made it

12     possible for someone else to come and arrest him and take him away.

13             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] Now, I do not understand anything

14     at all anymore.  Who could have come to arrest him?  You said previously

15     that at the time nobody was looking for him, so who could have arrested

16     him?

17        A.   [Interpretation] Our authorities were not looking for him, our

18     police forces, security forces, or special units were not looking for

19     him.  But he was searched for, and he is searched for even today in

20     Bosnia by different other forces KFOR, IFOR, whoever, NATO, so he may

21     have been afraid of them and not of our own security services.

22             Before The Law in Cooperation with the Tribunal was adopted, he

23     did not fear our own services.  But after Milosevic was arrested and

24     surrendered, he changed his attitude and his security.

25             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I understood that, but what I

Page 4721

 1     cannot understand is what you stated previously.  You stated that in 1997

 2     when you met Mladic at Rajac and possibly in that other facility as well

 3     in Stragari, you stated that you didn't know at the time whether there

 4     was an arrest warrant issued for him, so at the time you said you knew

 5     nothing about this.  But now you are saying that he could be arrested,

 6     that possibly some other forces could arrest him such as IFOR, NATO

 7     forces or somebody else.  You are saying that at the time maybe there was

 8     no warrant at all.

 9        A.   I don't know if there was any arrest warrant.  In my country in

10     Yugoslavia, in Serbia, but it is possible that even before there was such

11     a warrant issued by IFOR, NATO, or the International Tribunal.  I don't

12     know, in the media at the time you could read or hear very little about

13     this.  Only later you could learn more.  But I can't really say which

14     months it was or which year it was when the media started reporting more

15     about this.

16             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I will stop now, but I am afraid

17     that your answers are rather confusing when it comes to this topic,

18     because if you didn't know that there was a warrant issued by the --

19     possibly by the international Tribunal that could be implemented by NATO

20     or IFOR, I'm not sure at the same time that you can state that the place

21     where he was, his whereabouts, had to be kept secret.  This seems to me

22     rather confusing, but I will not insist on it anymore.

23        A.   That's very clear.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  Witness, in your statement of November 6, 2007, you

25     say that, "the last time I met with Mladic was at Rajac between Christmas

Page 4722

 1     and the Serbian new year in 2002, between 7 and 14 January, 2002."  Is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Possibly.  This is what is written down, but I had no chance of

 4     seeing my statement.  I did not read it.  The fact is that we met between

 5     7th and 14th of January, but at Stragari, not at Rajac.

 6             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you.  Were you at the time aware that

 7     General Mladic was going to be retired at February -- as 8 March, 2002,

 8     which is to say between the last time you saw him and the issue of the

 9     decree that was notified to him on 8th March, 2002, was issued, were you

10     aware of the situation of General Mladic at the time, almost on the eve

11     of his replacement?  Because there were only a few weeks, if I am

12     understanding well the dates.

13        A.   Yes, let me just clarify this.  Under our legislation, one can

14     retire when one reaches 60 years of age.  On 12 of March of that year,

15     Mladic was turning 60, and he had to retire under Yugoslav or under

16     legislation of Republika Srpska.  We spoke about this and he told me that

17     he hoped that by March the 12th, he would receive a decree relieving him

18     of his active military service and that he would thereafter retire.  So

19     we could assume that this was going to happen, because after that date,

20     he could no longer be an active member of the military service.  Neither

21     Army of the Republika Srpska nor Yugoslav Army.

22             JUDGE DAVID:  Were you aware also at the time that The Law of

23     Cooperation was going to be passed between your country and ICTY that

24     took place on the 1st April of 2002, did you discuss these matters with

25     General Mladic or not?  Were you aware that there were a process in your

Page 4723

 1     country to pass The Law of Cooperation with ICTY?

 2        A.   Yes, I knew that the procedure was underway, I knew that the

 3     government had prepared a draft law which was submitted to the parliament

 4     and that it was probably going to be adopted on 1st of April.

 5             JUDGE DAVID:  You didn't feel at the time the need to disclose

 6     the presence of General Mladic during your last interview with him at the

 7     time that you knew that The Law of Cooperation was going to be passed and

 8     you talked to him, as you said, about the situation?  You didn't feel --

 9     I repeat, knowing that The Law of Cooperation was being discussed in your

10     country with the ICTY, you didn't feel compelled to inform anyone about

11     the presence of Mr. Mladic because at the time you heard through the

12     press that he was searched for or looked for by the Tribunal?

13        A.   No.  I did not feel that it was necessary.  I did not feel it was

14     up to me to reveal this to anybody.  At the time I was a pensioner, a

15     retired person, and he was simply my friend.

16             JUDGE DAVID:  You said also that you had not received orders to

17     inform the presence of General Mladic in your statement today.  Had you

18     received orders to do so to reveal his presence, would you have done so,

19     because of your friendship and relations to the general?

20        A.   I do not know who would issue such an order, but I would never

21     reveal my information about this, not on any cost.  But when you say if I

22     received an order, I do not understand who from.  So in the first part of

23     your question, I do not understand who could issue such an order.

24             JUDGE DAVID:  I'm just repeating what you said.  You said, I did

25     not receive any orders to do so, so I infer from that, that if you had

Page 4724

 1     received an order, you will have disclosed his whereabouts?  But you just

 2     answered saying that in no circumstance you would have disclosed his --

 3     even if you had received an order.  Because he was your friend, I think

 4     you just said so.  "I would never reveal any information about this, not

 5     on any cost."  So thank you very much, General, I have no more questions

 6     for you.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.

 8             General, at page 13 today, line -- starting from line 16, you

 9     said:

10             "When I said something as it appears here, what I meant was the

11     internal division between me and the logistics assistant who it was to be

12     the two of us who would take care of the facilities to make them liveable

13     for the people who go to rest there."  They are talking here about the

14     facility at Rajac, between you and logistics who should look after it.

15             But before this discussion of who between the two of you should

16     look after this, what entity within the army was responsible for these

17     facilities?

18        A.   The entity responsible for these two facilities was the

19     headquarters administration.  This is an organisational unit within the

20     1st Army.  So it was in charge among other things also of Stragari

21     military facility, Rajac hotel, and another hotel, hotel at Topcider.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Why were the headquarters

23     administration not then looking after the facility to make it liveable?

24     Why did you and logistics have to decide whether or not one of you should

25     take over that job?

Page 4725

 1        A.   I believe maybe there is some misunderstanding stemming back from

 2     my conversation with the Prosecution.  It's not only that this was

 3     obsolete or inadequate for any visits or guest.  The issue is that

 4     certain money had to be invested in order to buy a lawnmower, for

 5     example, because it covered a lot of surface, you had to renew the sport

 6     facilities, football pitch, volley pitch, and so on --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry.  Please listen to my question and

 8     answer my question.  I know all that.  I know that that is precisely my

 9     question.

10             If headquarters administration was responsible for this entity,

11     this facility, why couldn't money be voted through that headquarter

12     administration to buy the lawnmower?  Why did it have to be either you,

13     your department, or the logistics?  That's my question.

14        A.   It wasn't done through us, and no money came through the

15     logistics department.  It all came through headquarters administration,

16     but from the money paid by each guest for his accommodation, 80 percent

17     of the money -- of that money stayed for the maintenance of the facility,

18     so the head of that facility could buy the equipment that was necessary.

19     So only when guests started coming and when money started to be collected

20     from payments for meals and accommodation, only then we could have proper

21     financing of equipment and refurbishing.  It's just that we were more

22     interested into this being done.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question to you is, why couldn't this be done

24     by the entity that was responsible for the facility?  Please listen to my

25     question and answer my question.

Page 4726

 1        A.   It was done through that entity.  We just assisted.  I never said

 2     that they didn't do their job.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if they were doing it, I don't understand why

 4     you and the logistics must then discuss who between the two of you must

 5     do the job, if it is being done by the responsible entity?

 6        A.   We didn't do anything there.  But if you need an asphalt road,

 7     the headquarters administration could not do that, so we found a company

 8     who could do that.  A company who build fireplace and a whole range of

 9     other things which improved the facility.  Also the previously mentioned

10     monument, it would never occur to the headquarters administration to

11     erect that monument there.  So this is what I referred to.  We did not

12     interfere with command chain or anything similar.  It was always under

13     the HQ administration and its subordinates.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much, General.

15             Any questions Mr. Harmon?

16             MR. HARMON:  I have no additional questions, Your Honour.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing, if I may add

20     something to the question asked by His Honour Ms. Picard.

21                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   Have you ever heard of a man called Slavko Dokmanovic?  If not, I

23     will not insist.

24        A.   I have heard of this name through the media, but I do not know in

25     which year and on what occasion.

Page 4727

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, General Curcin.

 3             This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.  Thank you

 4     very much for taking time off to come and testify at the Tribunal.  You

 5     are now excused.  You may stand down and please travel well back home.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Your Honours, we are at your disposal.  We have

10     about five minutes or left at which to proceed.  We have another witness

11     available.  In our view it would be better if we start tomorrow than if

12     we proceed today.  But we are in your hands, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before you decide, Your Honours, I

15     would just kindly ask you to refer to your decision on page 41, line 17,

16     because you included the second statement into evidence, the second

17     statement of this witness, and then later on when I supplied the same

18     arguments, you agreed with me that pursuant to your guide-lines, these

19     statements should not have been included into the evidence, and therefore

20     we did not include the second statement.  So I just believe that we

21     should have a uniform position on this.  Because Mr. Harmon once again

22     asked for parts of the statements to be included into evidence, the parts

23     that were shown to the witness.  And pursuant to this request, you

24     actually agreed.  But then later on when Mr. Harmon asked for similar --

25     for parts of the second statement to be included, then you agreed with

Page 4728

 1     me, and we concluded that the transcript itself is sufficient.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are right, Mr. Lukic.  You are only wrong in

 3     saying that you advanced the same argument.  You didn't.  For the first

 4     statement you advanced arguments from paragraph 8.  For the second

 5     statements you advanced arguments from paragraph 3.  And that is the

 6     reason that the decision was different.  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You are absolutely right.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             We'll stand adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

10     Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.

12                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, 24th of March, 2009,

13                           at 9.00 a.m.