Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4884

 1                           Thursday, 26 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

16     everyone in and around the courtroom.  Barney Thomas, Salvatore Cannata,

17     and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.

19             And for the Defence.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning to Your Honours.  Good morning to

21     everyone else.  For the Defence today we have Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec

22     Chad Mair, Daniela Tasic, our intern Eric Tully sitting with Novak Lukic,

23     and I'm Gregor Guy-Smith.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Good morning, Dr. Nakas.

Page 4885

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I hope had you a restful night.  I know have you

 3     had here for a long time and we are trying very hard to get you home.

 4             Dr. Nakas, just to remind that you are you bound by the

 5     declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

 6     truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  BAKIR NAKAS [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I understand.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you very much.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If Dr. Nakas could be supplied with the hard copy

14     of P2238 in English and in B/C/S, we have both but we can look at the

15     English copy as we did yesterday, if that is preferable.  Also if hard

16     copies could be supplied to the Bench I would appreciate it.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of P22.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  P2238.

19        Q.   I want to see if we can -- or if perhaps I can gain some clarity

20     with regard to some of the issues that we were discussing yesterday

21     concerning protocols.  If we could turn to page 30 of the hard copy

22     document in the English language, which is the report of the emergency

23     centre surgery section for the month of December 1994, and I believe it's

24     page number 1 in the B/C/S.

25             Do you have page number 30?

Page 4886

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Looking at page number 30, do you agree with that with me that

 3     this is a report of the emergency centre of surgery section for

 4     December 1994?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  It's a report on the activities in the month of

 6     December 1994.

 7        Q.   Apart from this particular report, would there be any other

 8     reports from the emergency centre regarding its activities for the month

 9     of December in 1994?

10        A.   Well, this report is practically a compilation of all activities

11     conducted in that month, and as far as I know, any other report -- there

12     were no other reports of the emergency centre.

13        Q.   Okay.  With regard to this report, an examination of this report

14     establishes the number of newly injured; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And it indicates there were 27 of those individuals.  And then it

17     breaks that number of 27 individuals into individuals who were injured

18     who were in the armed forces an individuals who were civilians; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   It also indicates a number of admissions of newly injured.  True?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And the number of admissions of newly injured once again has a

23     total number with a break down between those individuals who were in the

24     armed forces and those individuals who were civilians of the; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4887

 1        Q.   It also has a number of outpatient surgeries that occurred for

 2     the month of December.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   It has an indication of "on the section" with a number.  Could

 5     you describe to the Chamber what that particular part of this report

 6     refers to, "on the section"?

 7        A.   These two figures actually comprise the 118 figure above of

 8     surgeries that were performed at the emergency service, and the number 11

 9     is the additional number of minor surgeries that were performed in the

10     ward itself.

11        Q.   Would it be fair, then, this you took the outpatient surgery

12     number of 118 and the "on the section" number of 111, and you added them

13     together to come up with a total number of surgeries that were performed

14     in the month of December at the emergency centre?  Would that be a fair

15     thing to do?

16        A.   Well, not really because emergency centre -- or, rather, a part

17     of these operations out of 118 were performed at the emergency centre.

18     But the section portion, where it says section, these are different wards

19     where different rooms where these various surgeries were also performed.

20             The other cases were so-called cold cases where you received

21     patients who come regularly for check-ups and some outpatients surgeries

22     can be performed there.  So a total of all those surgeries performed both

23     at various wards and at the -- at the emergency centre, they all

24     comprised that number, plus this number of 11 surgeries performed at the

25     ward itself.

Page 4888

 1        Q.   So looking at this particular document, could you tell us what is

 2     the total number -- based upon what you just said was the total number of

 3     surgeries that are indicated on this document as having been performed

 4     for the month of December 1994?

 5        A.   In the December 1994, the total number of outpatient surgeries

 6     was 199 -- I apologise, 129, that's when you add up 118 and 11, you get

 7     129.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, with regard to the other entries there's an

 9     entry of number of injured children and number of individuals who came in

10     dead on arrival.  And with regard to the month of December, we have the

11     figure of 1 individual coming in dead on arrival.  And I take it the OS

12     designation indicates that that individual was an armed forces

13     individual; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now looking at this document and this document alone for the

16     moment, where can we find information that indicates how many individuals

17     were treated by the emergency centre of the hospital in December of 1994,

18     with regard to sniping incidents?

19        A.   That figure can be found under number 1, number of newly injured,

20     the total of 27.  Those who were injured in sniping incidents would be

21     under that heading.

22        Q.   That I understand.  But with regard to being able to determine

23     out of that number how many were injured with -- how many of those 27

24     were injured from sniping incidents, how do you determine that from this

25     particular document?  Just looking at this particular document.

Page 4889

 1        A.   You cannot determine that, based on this document at all, because

 2     this document was not a report with a break down on type of injury, but

 3     just the total number of newly injured, number of admissions, of the

 4     newly injured, and the other information that is set forth there.  These

 5     reports did not include information on the effects or consequences of

 6     sniping incidents or any other types of injuries.

 7        Q.   Precisely.  And, as a matter of fact, what the figure that you

 8     have here with regard to that, the figure of the number of newly injured,

 9     all we can determine from this figure is that there was a gross figure of

10     27 individuals who came in for treatment but the reason for that

11     treatment, based on this document, is something that we cannot determine;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, correct.  It is absolutely impossible.  These are general

14     figures without going into the consequences.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Into the causes, interpreter's correction.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   Yesterday when you were testifying, you indicated that there

18     are -- I don't have in my system an updated transcript, so I'm referring

19     to page 92 of yesterday's transcript which would be towards the end, and

20     I can give you the following language which might be of assistance for

21     purposes of searching on your WordWheel, which is ledgers with protocols.

22             And I asked you yesterday a question, which is:  Are is there

23     other documents above and beyond those 35 pages of documents referring

24     once again to P2238, and you responded:

25             "Yes.  There are protocols, ledgers with protocols."

Page 4890

 1             And I'd like to stop there for a moment and see if question get

 2     some clarification here.

 3             When you said there are ledgers with protocols, I take it that

 4     you were referring to a document other - and by other I mean different -

 5     than the document that we just referred to on page 30 that being the

 6     report of the emergency centre of surgery section for December 1994?

 7             Correct?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

 9             MR. CANNATA:  The same question is being asked an answered

10     yesterday.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yesterday.

12             MR. CANNATA:  Page 4880, line 17 to line 25 -- well, ...

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate that it has and I'm moving right

14     that.  Just tidying up for a second.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem is, let's not repeat what we have

16     asked.  Just like the questions that have you been asking right now this

17     morning.  I think doctor mentioned yesterday that these documents were

18     compiled not for court, they were compiled during -- at the time when

19     these incidents were happening in the hospital.  They were not compiled

20     with the intention to come and testify in court.  That's why you don't

21     have snipings listed here.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand that.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:

25        Q.   Now, apart from -- apart from the documents that we have been

Page 4891

 1     discussing, is there any other protocol document that specifically lists

 2     sniper fire?

 3        A.   Each department, including the emergency centre, during the war,

 4     had to keep records of patients who were admitted and treated at the

 5     State Hospital in Sarajevo.  These records were kept on standard forms or

 6     protocols, that I said we had practically inherited from the earlier

 7     hospital, military hospital, where certain information had to be filled

 8     out.  The number, date, first and last name, status of the individual

 9     that was admitted, the area where the diagnosis would be filled out,

10     treatment, recommended treatment, as well as opinion -- medical opinions

11     or findings, whether the patient had to be kept at the hospital, or could

12     be released home.

13              And based on this, we could always know the number of cases that

14     had been dealt with, and on the basis of which, daily, monthly, and

15     annual reports could be prepared, as well as any other necessary

16     documentation that was part of the regular plan, or administration that

17     we would have to provide at the request of certain institutions such as

18     ministry of health, the WHO, the UNHCR in the case where you had to

19     evacuate injured individuals and --

20        Q.   Excuse me.  I do hate to interrupt.  You're not answering my

21     question, sir.  My question is very specific which is:  Is there any

22     other protocol document that specifically listed sniper fire?

23        A.   There was no protocol that was kept for sniper incidents alone.

24     There are protocols where, in the comments, you would just note why the

25     patient was admitted at the hospital or seen at the hospital.

Page 4892

 1             As for specific forms that would only enter -- that would only be

 2     kept on the basis or break down of the type of injury, such documents did

 3     not exist.  Such forms did not exist.

 4        Q.   And, finally, just -- I have a few more questions.

 5             With regard to the document that we were looking on, on page 30,

 6     which is entitled:  "Report of the emergency centre of surgery section

 7     for December 1994," it -- would that -- is that the only protocol of the

 8     emergency centre of the State Hospital that was published?

 9        A.   This is it not the only protocol.  This is just an excerpt from

10     the unique protocol.  There was only one protocol or register of the

11     centre and this is just an excerpt from that register or protocol.

12        Q.   And that is an excerpt from the month of December.  There would

13     be a similar one for each and every month; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Apart from having a similar protocol for each and every

16     month, would there be any other form of document which would be a

17     protocol of the emergency centre of the State Hospital?

18        A.   There was only one protocol or register.  There are no others,

19     believe me.

20        Q.   Okay.  Could you --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Doctor, can I ask a question.  What in your

22     parlance is meant by the word "protocol"?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our parlance, protocol means a

24     unique ledger or book, with unique forms that have to be filled out,

25     where certain information has to be entered.  So such protocols can be

Page 4893

 1     protocols for -- in this particular case, records of individuals who were

 2     seen at the hospital, then there would be protocols where you would -- or

 3     ledgers where you enter all the mail, incoming and outgoing mail and so

 4     on.  So this is just a name that we used for a unique format of a book

 5     with certain forms that would have to be kept at certain departments.

 6     These forms could be medical forms or any other types of protocols or

 7     forms that would be used in the general administration because each type

 8     of document would have their own form or part.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A document that you complete when you see a

10     patient for the first time, in which you record the particulars of that

11     patient, what the complaint of the patient is, your diagnosis and what

12     have you, is that also a protocol?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the document is a more extensive

14     document then that would be the medical history form per patient.  And at

15     the hospital, you would have medical history, where you would enter

16     numerous information, if the patient is admitted at the hospital.  But if

17     the patient is seen only in a medical office, in a doctor's office, there

18     would be only a line filled out for that particular patient where you put

19     his name, address, date of birth, father's name, diagnosis and so on,

20     just basic information, on the basis of which you could prepare certain

21     reports and conduct analysis.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And would you call that a protocol?  That's my

23     question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document that the Prosecution showed you

Page 4894

 1     yesterday dealing with individual medical history of patients, those are

 2     protocols?  They are also protocols.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are specialist findings.

 4     That is only a form, a piece of paper that is issued to the patient

 5     directly.  It's just paper format or form, where you would enter your

 6     opinion or your findings.  So that is not a protocol.  That is the

 7     specialist finding.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do you keep the medical records of the

 9     patients?  Where you -- you would say the particulars of the patients,

10     the diagnosis you have made, and the recommendations you make.  Where do

11     you keep that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is kept as part of the

13     protocols, in the protocols.  So an identical -- the identical finds that

14     are entered in the protocol would also be written down in the specialist

15     findings.  So they should correspond, both the findings that are issued

16     to the patient, and the protocol, or the ledger, book, log-book, where

17     you would only enter just the basic data; whereas in the specialist

18     finding form you would enter a far wider description of the complaints,

19     so that a doctor, another doctor, could deal with it.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Doctor, you keep referring to documents that you

21     give to the patient.  I'm not asking you about documents that you give to

22     the patient.  I'm asking you about documents that you keep in the

23     hospital as records of the hospital.  Okay.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the hospital, we keep protocols.

25     These are department or ward records, and they're also medical histories

Page 4895

 1     that are kept for each patient who was admitted at the hospital --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that's -- hold it there.  And these medical

 3     histories do you also call them protocols; that's my question.  And you

 4     can just say yes, no, or I don't know.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't call them protocols.  Thank you very

 7     much.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think that -- that you

 9     focussed on the issue in a way that hopefully is a help to all.

10        Q.   Could you turn to the second page of the English document, which

11     is?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Second page, you mean 31, page 31.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The second page -- in the hard copy of 37, page 2

14     which is the continuation of the -- as have I it here, is the

15     continuation of the chart.  Go to the very beginning of the document.

16     Start at the very beginning.  Yes, perfect, you have to turn the second

17     page of that document.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's right on your monitor in front of you,

19     Doctor.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:

21        Q.   Now, this particular document is a document that, as I understand

22     it, the source of information is clearly identified as being the

23     protocols of the emergency centre of the State Hospital, Sarajevo, for

24     the period from August 1994 until October 1995.  When we were looking at

25     page 30, you indicated that was an example of the protocols and excerpt,

Page 4896

 1     as it were, of the protocols of the emergency centre of the

 2     State Hospital, Sarajevo, for that particular month; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, yesterday, one of the things that we discussed was that

 5     there was -- I gave you some examples of some differences between the

 6     numbers that were contained on your chart and the numbers that were

 7     contained in the documents that we were reviewing; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And can you give us an explanation for those differences; right?

10        A.   As far as I can recall, I explained that yesterday.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have no further questions at this time.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14             Mr. Cannata.

15             MR. CANNATA:  I have no re-examination, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do have a comment to make with regard to

19     particular exhibit, however.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, sir.  Go ahead.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Which is ...

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't know if we need the presence of the

24     witness or not, but I don't mind if he is here.

25             With regard to P2238, I would interpose an objection distinct

Page 4897

 1     from the objection that was -- I'm not sure if I opposed the objection

 2     before, but I would interpose an objection at this point which is that

 3     the document as presented is clearly unreliable on its face and should

 4     not be admitted for those reasons.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you are making an objection to a document

 6     that has already been admitted.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I am.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, it is admitted.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm preserving it for the record at this point

10     I'm asking the Court to reconsider its ruling with regard to this

11     particular document, because in the absence -- in the absence of

12     cross-examination of those issues that revolved around this document

13     could not be addressed, but after cross-examination I believe that it has

14     been established that the document is unreliable on its face, for the

15     record and nothing else; and I would ask the Court to reconsider.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for your comment.

17             Doctor, thank you so much fort taking the time off to come and

18     testify at the Tribunal.  We have come to the end of your testimony.  You

19     are now excused and you may stand down.  Please, travel well back home.

20     Once again, thank you for coming.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, Mr. Thomas will take the next witness.

24     May I be excused?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused, Mr. Cannata.

Page 4898

 1             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And just before we call the next witness,

 3     Mr. Thomas, this is an oral decision that the Trial Chamber would like to

 4     render.

 5             On the 23rd of March, 2009, the Prosecution filed its request

 6     related to Richard Philipps notifying the Trial Chamber and the Defence

 7     that it no longer intends to call Richard Philipps as a witness in the

 8     present proceedings and requesting that the Trial Chamber withdraw his

 9     expert report from evidence.  The Trial Chamber wishes to address that

10     matter now.

11             In its decision on the 10th of March, the Trial Chamber pursuant

12     to Rule 94 bis admitted Richard Philipps' expert report into evidence and

13     called the witness to appear before the Trial Chamber as an expert to be

14     examined by the parties and the Trial Chamber.  As the Prosecution

15     decided not to call Richard Philipps, the Trial Chamber hereby orders

16     that Richard Philipps' report shall not form part of the trial record,

17     and it should be expunged.  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Thomas.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The next witness is

20     MP-015.  Sir, is he subject to protective measures, and I wonder if we

21     can go into closed session as he arrives into court please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4899

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Page 4899 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4900

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             MR. THOMAS:  While we're doing that, Your Honours, I wonder if we

 7     could have the pseudonym sheet up on the screen.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

10                           Examination by Mr. Thomas:

11        Q.   Sir, are you sitting comfortably?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   On the screen in front of you, you will see a sheet of paper with

14     some details.  Please don't read those allowed but can you read to

15     yourself and confirm for us that they correctly record your details?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honour, if that could please be admitted as an

19     exhibit under seal.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted under seal.  May it

21     please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2239, under seal.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, Madam Registrar.

25        Q.   Sir, you are testifying subject to a number of protective

Page 4901

 1     measures which I discussed with you previously, but I should remind you

 2     that those are that you will be referred to by the pseudonym that you saw

 3     appearing on the screen in front of you a moment ago, throughout the

 4     course of these proceedings; and that facial distortion has been engaged

 5     for the purpose of broadcast.  We are presently sitting in open session.

 6     Where there is any discussion which might assist in anyone wanting to

 7     establish your identity, we will move into private session.  If you feel

 8     at any time during either my questioning or questioning from the Defence,

 9     or questioning from Their Honours, if there is any, that you would

10     require to move into private session to answer any question, please

11     indicate that, sir, and we will attempt to accommodate that request.

12             Is that clear?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. THOMAS:  At this point, Your Honour, I would like to go into

15     private session, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4902

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 4902-4916 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4917

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

18             Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

24     session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

Page 4918

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4919

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 4919-4926 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4927

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4928

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4929

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 4929-4938 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4939

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we get assistance with the curtains.  Thank

14     you.

15             Is it possible to get assistance with the removal of the screen?

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Thomas.  Mr. Thomas, I'm told that

18     the next witness is equally protected, similarly protected.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Closed session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Keep them there.  Sorry about that.

21             Okay.

22             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, Madam Bolton will be leading the

23     next witness.  That concludes my business before Your Honours today, if I

24     could please be excused.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you need closed session to leave the room.  You

Page 4940

 1     are excused, Mr. Thomas.

 2             Madam Bolton.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Morning.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Almost afternoon.  I ask that we move into closed

 6     session, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 8                           [Closed session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4941

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 4941-4948 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4949

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             We'll take a break and come back at half past 12.00.

 6             Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes --

14             MS. BOLTON:  Can we go back into closed session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4950

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 4950-4978 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4979

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

15             The Chamber stands adjourned to Monday, the 30th, quarter past

16     2.00, Courtroom II.

17             Court adjourned.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of March,

20                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.

21

22

23

24

25