Page 5580
1 Monday, 27 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the
13 Prosecution, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours, Dan Saxon,
15 Salvatore Cannata, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning. Daniela Tasic, Chad
19 Milos Androvic, and Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 Just before we begin may I just mention that we are sitting
22 pursuant to Rule 15 bis today, Judge David being absent and held up in
23 the Lukic and Lukic case.
24 Mr. Cannata.
25 MR. CANNATA: Good morning, Your Honours.
Page 5581
1 I wish to mention for the record that I'm going to call the first
2 of three videolink witnesses scheduled for today, and the Prosecution
3 calls witness Nefa Sljivo. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. They come in that order.
5 MR. CANNATA: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may call them.
7 Is there anything we need to do to make sure?
8 [The witness entered court]
9 MR. CANNATA: Yes, the that's the witness I called, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Good morning Madam Registrar out in Sarajevo.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please ask the witness to make the
14 declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
17 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not hear the witness,
19 Your Honour.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've just been -- I was rising for the same
21 reason, but I have just been assisted in that regard.
22 MR. CANNATA: Then I need to be assisted as well.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, interpreters. I must say, I also heard
24 just a whisper from the witness. If we could be assisted, all of us.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
Page 5582
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Could just -- could you say something that -- out there,
3 Madam Witness. Let's hear whether we can hear you. Madam Sljivo. Good
4 morning.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters still do not hear the witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness can't be heard by the interpreters.
7 THE WITNESS: Dobro jutro.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do I get the attention of the registrar out
9 there?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I can hear you, Your Honour.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's try again.
13 Madam Registrar, could you please get the witness to make the
14 declaration. Hopefully we can hear her this time.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may now be seated.
18 I assume that the interpreters did hear her this time.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. Everything is fine.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Cannata.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: NEFA SLJIVO
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 [Witness testified via videolink]
Page 5583
1 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
2 Q. Madam Witness, good morning. Can you hear me well?
3 A. Good morning. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can you please state your full name
5 for the record.
6 A. Nefa Sljivo.
7 Q. Thank you very much, ma'am. Now, do you remember giving two
8 statements to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY; the first on the
9 8th of March, 1997, and the second on the 26th of April, 2006. Do you
10 remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. CANNATA: Can 65 ter 9401 be shown to the witness and placed
14 on the e-court.
15 Q. Now, Madam Witness, do you see a document in front of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you see your signature there?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. CANNATA: Can we now move to page 5 of this document.
20 Q. Now, is this a statement that you, Witness, gave to the Bosnian
21 authorities about the incident of the 1st of July, 1995?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, could we have the English translation
24 of this statement up, please.
25 MR. CANNATA: It can be found at page 6 of the same document.
Page 5584
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean of the same document,
2 Mr. Cannata?
3 MR. CANNATA: Of 65 ter 9401.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, the English version is something separate.
5 Yeah, okay.
6 MR. CANNATA:
7 Q. Now, do you see your signature on that document, ma'am?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, did you have an opportunity to review both the Bosnian
10 statement and the ICTY statement before appearing today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And do you confirm that these statements are true and accurate,
13 to the best of your knowledge and belief?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And would you say the same if you were asked the same -- to speak
16 about the same events today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. CANNATA: Now, Your Honour, can 65 ter number 9410 be given
20 an exhibit number. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: 9401 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
22 given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2305.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, just so we're clear, as I understand
25 that particular exhibit, you are confining yourself only to the statement
Page 5585
1 made by Ms. Nefa; correct? Which is pages -- pages one and two of the
2 English and then the -- one page of the BiH [sic]. It's a three-page.
3 You will be introducing three pages; is that correct?
4 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, I'm introducing the whole statement,
5 65 ter number 9401 which consists of the ICTY statement, dated 8 of
6 March, 1997, appended to the ICTY statement there's the Bosnian authority
7 statement. And that's the document that I showed to the witness, and I
8 would ask for the admission of the entire document, 9401 which consists
9 of these two documents.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, maybe I'm having some difficulty here, and
11 if I could have but a moment. To the extent that the Prosecution is
12 seeking to introduce the statements of the witness herself, there is no
13 objection. To the extent there is any other documentation, there is an
14 objection because this is not the witness's statement and not something
15 that the witness would testify to. My difficulty is the document I'm
16 looking at contains information, if I'm not mistaken, which is above and
17 beyond the witness's statement. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong
18 information. So let me just double-check.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just be --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's no difficulty. It's taken care of.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Registrar, you said this is 2305.
22 I thought 65 ter 5830 already has that exhibit number. Shouldn't it be
23 306?
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that's correct, 65 ter number 9401
Page 5586
1 would then become exhibit P2306.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
4 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Can 65 ter number 9402 be shown to the
5 witness and placed on the e-court.
6 Q. Again, Madam Witness, do you have a document in front of you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you see your signature there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review this statement before
11 appearing today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you confirm that this statement is true and accurate, to the
14 best of your knowledge?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if you were asked to speak about the same events today, would
17 you give the same answer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, may 65 ter number 9402 be given an
21 exhibit number.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
23 given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P2307.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
Page 5587
1 MR. CANNATA: Can we now have 65 ter number 9403. And while
2 we're waiting for the document to be produced --
3 Q. Madam Witness, let me ask you, do you recall testifying in the
4 case before this Tribunal called Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, do you have a copy of the transcript in front of you right
7 now?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this testimony before
10 appearing today?
11 A. I did.
12 MR. CANNATA: Now, can we move to page 4 of this document,
13 please.
14 Q. Now, Madam Witness, when we met last week, I understand that it
15 was a small correction that you wish to make to line 20. Now, at line 20
16 you state that the hospital where you were brought after the incident was
17 called Enver Maric. But when we met, you told me that you probably made
18 a mistake, as can you only remember that the hospital was called Maric.
19 But you cannot remember whether its full name was in fact Enver Maric or
20 not. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, with this small correction, would you be able to confirm
23 that the transcript is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you give the same answers today if you were asked the same
Page 5588
1 questions?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, may I have 65 ter number 9403 be
4 admitted into evidence.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
6 number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2308, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. CANNATA:
10 Q. Now, Madam, last questions from my side. During the testimony,
11 your previous testimony, in the Dragomir Milosevic case, do you recall
12 being shown a medical document?
13 A. You mean from the hospital?
14 Q. Yes. And to assist you, let me have 65 ter 8596 be shown to you
15 and placed on the e-court, please.
16 Now, is that the document that was shown to you during the
17 Dragomir Milosevic case, ma'am?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review this document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is this document true and accurate, to the best of your
22 knowledge?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. CANNATA: May 65 ter number 8596 be given an exhibit number,
Page 5589
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. May it please be given
3 an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2309, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
7 Now with your leave, Your Honour, I will read a short summary of
8 Witness Sljivo's evidence, and that will conclude my examination-in-chief
9 of this witness. Thank you.
10 Witness, Nefa Sljivo has given evidence in respect of scheduled
11 incident A8 of the indictment, that is the incident occurred on the 1st
12 of July, 1995, in Sarajevo
13 Bunicki Potok Street in the Hrasnica area of Sarajevo
14 wounding of 13 civilians, including witness Sljivo herself and other
15 members of her family.
16 Witness testified that there were no Bosnian army soldiers or
17 positions in the vicinity of the area hit by the modified air bomb
18 launched on 1st of July, 1995.
19 Q. Madam Witness, I have no further questions for you at this time.
20 Thank you very much.
21 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, that concludes my
22 examination-in-chief. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much.
Page 5590
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
2 Q. Good morning.
3 You were living in, I believe, the area known as Hrasnica;
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in the area that you were living, there were soldiers from
7 the ABiH army; correct?
8 A. Yes. But not there where the bomb was fired.
9 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was: And in the area that
10 you were living there were soldiers from the ABiH army; correct?
11 A. In Hrasnica, yes.
12 Q. How many soldiers were there, if you know?
13 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
14 Q. And this neighbourhood that you were living in, it's at the
15 bottom of Mount Igman
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And there's a road that goes by the street of your home, which is
18 a road that is taken in order go up Mount Igman; correct?
19 A. There are several roads in Hrasnica by which you can reach
20 Mount Igman
21 Q. And during the time that you were living at your home in
22 Hrasnica, did you have occasion to see members of the ABiH on this road?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which road? I don't think you --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: The roads that go up Mount Igman
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But she said there were several.
Page 5591
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: The roads. Now I'm referring to the roads that
2 go up Mount Igman
3 Q. Did you have occasion to see members of the army go up that road,
4 of the ABiH?
5 A. I don't understand what you mean going by the road. Are you --
6 do you mean in columns or ... I don't understand.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... columns that would be a good
8 question, yes.
9 A. No, I didn't. Not where I was nearby anywhere, no.
10 Q. Did you have the occasion to see members of the ABiH using this
11 road driving white vehicles?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I will rephrase the question.
14 Q. Did you see members of the ABiH army using these roads driving
15 white vehicles?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- Mr. Guy-Smith, if you could just hold on.
17 My screen is frozen. I'm not getting the record.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: So is mine.
19 MR. CANNATA: If I may assist, the LiveNote is working. I think
20 the e-court transcripts are frozen. But transcripts available on
21 LiveNote which you can access from your black bottom next to the
22 computer, that works.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking English, I don't understand. I
24 mean ... I can see that LiveNote is working this side, but I use this
25 screen for exhibits, because it's operated from down there. And I'm not
Page 5592
1 able to operate it on the right -- precisely because I don't understand
2 your English, and I -- my LiveNote goes on my right side. That one is
3 frozen.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm told it's a universal problem within
6 the Tribunal. Let's go on and see how we go. The one side of the
7 LiveNote is working.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I need to find a screen which is, at the present
9 time, not locked. Which I don't have.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one next to the one that is locked.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Let me ... if I do that, Your Honour, then
12 I can't see the witness.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I know. Yeah. You got to sacrifice one of
14 the two things. And you want to observe demeanour.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be nice, would be of some assistance
16 to me, in terms of my examination. Let me see if we can do something
17 else. Just let me try something. I don't know if it's going to work or
18 not.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, Mr. Guy-Smith, you have four screens in
20 front of you. If can you use the one for LiveNote, and the -- the other
21 one from the other pair --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's what we're trying to do right now. This
23 one screen, which is the dedicated screen for the video, is now the
24 screen in which we have LiveNote. I think we're almost there,
25 Your Honour. We're just reconfiguring our computers here.
Page 5593
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: That will work.
6 Q. I believe that we left off before the technical problem, and I
7 apologise for that occurring, with me asking you a question as to whether
8 or not you saw white vehicles being driven by the ABiH army going by the
9 roads up Mount Igman
10 Mount Igman
11 A. No. The white car was an UN vehicle.
12 Q. During the time that you were living in Hrasnica, did you have
13 occasion to use a tunnel to go to town?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times did you use that tunnel?
16 A. I don't know exactly. I was a student there, so I went into town
17 to go to the uni. I don't know how many times.
18 Q. When you used the tunnel, were you allowed to go through the
19 tunnel freely, or did you have to obtain a pass to go through that
20 tunnel?
21 A. I had to obtain a pass.
22 Q. And the pass that you obtained, where did you get that pass?
23 A. In the municipality, from the civilian authorities.
24 Q. And if I understand your testimony, when you used the tunnel, you
25 were going from outside the town, inside the town to go to university; is
Page 5594
1 that correct?
2 A. But not every day.
3 Q. I understand. Did you have to, when you were using the tunnel,
4 did you have to wait to get through the tunnel, or were you able to go
5 through the tunnel freely. And by wait, I mean did you have to wait for
6 a period of time because there were people or cars going through that
7 tunnel?
8 A. Vehicles couldn't go through the tunnel. Only people could.
9 And, yes, I did have to wait.
10 Q. And were you -- when you went through the tunnel, did you go
11 through the tunnel in groups of people? And by that I mean was there a
12 wait for 50 or 100 people before they went through the tunnel together?
13 A. I don't know how they organised it. In any case there was a
14 group of people, you know. You could not walk in two directions at a
15 time.
16 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly, would it be fair to say
17 that when you went to the university, you went from your home, which was
18 outside of the city, through the confrontation lines, inside the city,
19 through the tunnel?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. CANNATA: Too late. The witness answered. But my point is
23 that the witness never mentioned the confrontation lines in her testimony
24 so far.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. That is true.
Page 5595
1 Q. Have you not mentioned confrontation line. Do you remember when
2 testifying -- when you were testifying you were asked the following
3 question by Judge Harhoff concerning your mode of travel:
4 "I would like to put one short question to you relating to the
5 passage through the tunnel. And if I understand you correctly, because
6 your residence was outside the city, and your university where you
7 studied was within the city, the confrontation lines of the city, you
8 sometimes pass through the tunnel when you wanted to move from the inner
9 city to your home, your residence. Is that correct?"
10 Your answer was:
11 "Could you please repeat your question. Excuse me?"
12 Judge Harhoff then asked you the following question:
13 "That's all right. I understand you to say that you were
14 studying at the university which I suppose was located within the
15 confrontation line, that is to say, in the city centre somewhere, yet
16 your family was living outside. So in order to get from the university
17 to your family residence, you would have to go through the tunnel, and
18 you did so, as I understand, once?"
19 Answer: "Yes."
20 Judge Harhoff:
21 "Every month or so, and you said that."
22 Is that a correct -- is that a correct recitation of the
23 questions that were asked and the answers that you gave in your previous
24 testimony?
25 A. I don't remember exactly. I know that I didn't go every day and
Page 5596
1 that I didn't go often. I had to spend some time at the uni, and then
2 when that was done I would go back. I don't remember how often that
3 occurred.
4 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, were there other tunnels that existed
5 in the city of Sarajevo
6 through the confrontation line?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. During the time that you were in the tunnel, did you have
9 an opportunity to see army members transporting military supplies through
10 this tunnel?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And the pass that you received from the civilian authorities, is
13 that a pass that was good for one trip through the tunnel, or is that a
14 pass that was good for a week, or a month? How did that pass work?
15 A. I took a pass in Hrasnica every time I went there.
16 Q. Were there times that you went to Hrasnica to get a pass when you
17 weren't allowed a pass because there were -- all the passes had been
18 taken up?
19 A. I was a student, which entitled me to a pass every time. And I
20 did get it every time.
21 Q. As you sit here today, could you tell us what other kinds of
22 individuals were entitled to have a pass to go through the tunnel?
23 A. I really don't know.
24 Q. Thank you very much for your time.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, any further re-examination.
Page 5597
1 MR. CANNATA: No. No, Your Honour. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have a question to ask you,
6 Ms. Sljivo. Can you tell me what was the distance between your home in
7 Hrasnica and the tunnel.
8 A. About 4 kilometres. Thereabouts, I'm not sure.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was all.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, any questions arising from the
11 Judge's questions?
12 MR. CANNATA: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, thank you very much. And I thank the judge
15 for her question. I think it's most helpful.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 Madam Witness, thank you so much for taking the time to come and
18 testify. We are now done with your testimony. You are now excused and
19 stand down. Please go well back home, okay?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's still lots of time.
24 MR. CANNATA: May we go into private session, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
Page 5598
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Page 5599
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Page 5613
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16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
19 Looks like Madam Registrar is doubling up as court usher as well.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you please ask the
22 witness to make the declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
Page 5614
1 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
2 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 WITNESS: ALIJA HOLJAN
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 [Witness testified via videolink]
6 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
7 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me?
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you please state your full name for the record.
10 A. Alija Holjan.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 MR. CANNATA: Now, can 65 ter number 9409 be shown to the witness
13 and placed on the e-court, please.
14 Q. Sir, do you remember giving a statement to the Office of the
15 Prosecutor of the ICTY on the 22nd of February, 1996?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you see your signature on the document that you have in
18 front of you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that document before
21 appearing today?
22 A. Yes, I had the opportunity on the 21st. Two of your officers
23 came, and we sat in my house, and we looked at all of those transcripts.
24 And we looked at them, and we read them through.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, can you confirm that this statement is true
Page 5615
1 and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
2 A. All the statements that I gave, I stand by them, and I assert
3 that they are truthful.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me take one statement -- you know, statement
5 by statement, all right? Now I'm talking about the one that you have in
6 front of you. Is that true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge
7 and belief?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Thank you. And would you give the same statement today if you
10 were asked to speak about the same events today?
11 A. I think that I gave the statements. I stand by them, as I said,
12 these are statements from about ten years back. Perhaps I might miss
13 something, but I was the one who gave these statements, and I stand by
14 them.
15 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
16 MR. CANNATA: Now can I have 65 ter 9409 be given an exhibit
17 number, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P2312, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
23 Can we -- can the witness be shown 65 ter number 9410.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1 --
25 MR. CANNATA: I'm sorry. 9410.
Page 5616
1 Q. Sir, again, do you see your signature in that document?
2 A. Yes. It's my signature on this document. I signed it.
3 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review this document?
4 A. I looked through all of these documents on the 21st of April in
5 my apartment with your staff members.
6 Q. And would you confirm that this statement is true and accurate,
7 to the best of your knowledge?
8 A. Everything that I stated, I assert that is accurate and truthful.
9 Q. And would you say the same today if asked to speak about the same
10 events again?
11 A. I gave a statement three times, and I confirm that. If I were to
12 give the statements again, perhaps something I might omit, I'm an
13 elderly, sick man, so I cannot think and remember exactly what happened a
14 year ago, never mind ten years ago.
15 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
16 MR. CANNATA: May I ask this document be admitted into evidence.
17 It's 9410, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that the answer just given does not
20 comply with the requirements of Rule 92 ter.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
22 MR. CANNATA: Let me ask the question again to the witness then.
23 Q. Witness, I'm asking --
24 A. Go ahead.
25 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about the statement that you have in front
Page 5617
1 of you, all right? Yeah. Now what I'm --
2 A. I understand.
3 Q. Now, would you, if I were to ask you today to speak about the
4 same events on the 27th of February, 1995, would you give me the same
5 statement today?
6 A. Yes, I would give the same statement that I gave on the 27th of
7 April, 1995.
8 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
9 MR. CANNATA: Now can I have this document be admitted into
10 evidence, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, therein lies a different problem. The the
13 statement that we're referring to is dated 25th April, 2006.
14 MR. CANNATA:
15 Q. Sir, can you tell what is the date of the statement in front of
16 you? Can you look at the B/C/S document that you have in front of you.
17 Can you tell me what is the date on that document?
18 MR. CANNATA: And I ask for Madam Registrar's assistance in that.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The -- I think that the date is the
20 25th of April, 1996. That's when the statement was given.
21 MR. CANNATA:
22 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
23 MR. CANNATA: Can this document be admitted now.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the correct date?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not according to the information I have.
Page 5618
1 MR. CANNATA: I don't know whether there was a translation --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, it wasn't a translation error. And I suggest
3 you don't mention any different dates until the witness can testify about
4 what he is talking about.
5 MR. CANNATA:
6 Q. Sir, can you please read for me what is the date of the document
7 that is in front of you right now?
8 A. 25 April, 2006
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 MR. CANNATA: Can this document be admitted.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may now be admitted. May it please be given an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P2313.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. CANNATA: Can the witness be shown now 65 ter 9408 and that
16 document be placed on the e-court.
17 Q. Sir, do you see a document? Do you have a document? Yes. I see
18 that.
19 Now, can you --
20 A. Yes, can I see it.
21 Q. Can you describe what that document is?
22 A. This is the document -- or, rather, the statement that I provided
23 on the 27th of February, 1995
24 was wounded.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand that answer. I
Page 5619
1 don't -- what does that date refer to? To the date he gave the
2 statement, or to the date he was wounded?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date when I was wounded, on the
4 27th of February, 1995, at 1235 hours. That's when I was wounded.
5 MR. CANNATA:
6 Q. And by looking at this document, do you see your signature here?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you have an opportunity it review this document
9 before coming today to the field office?
10 A. Yes. I've told you that I had a time to look at all the
11 statements. You -- your officers gave them to me when they came up to
12 me, to my house.
13 Q. Do you confirm that this statement is true and accurate, to the
14 best of your knowledge and belief?
15 A. I can confirm this. That's why I provided this statement, and I
16 can confirm it.
17 Q. And would you stand by the statement again today, if asked to
18 speak about the same events, on the 27th of February, 1995?
19 A. I would provide answers to the effect as it was during the event.
20 Q. Would you -- would you say -- would you give the same statement
21 as the one that you gave to the Bosnian authorities, and that is in front
22 of you, if I asked you today to speak what happened to you on the 27th of
23 February, 1995?
24 A. I'm not denying anything that I said in that statement. I would
25 give the same statement. I can't say one thing now and the other thing
Page 5620
1 next time. Everything has to be the same, now and then.
2 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now can I have this document be
3 admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so admitted. May it please be given an
5 exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P2314, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Now, can I have the witness be shown
9 65 ter number 9411.
10 Q. Sir, again, do you recall testifying in case Prosecutor versus
11 Dragomir Milosevic on 2007?
12 A. I provided the statements that are before me now, and that's all.
13 I don't know anything else.
14 Q. Let -- just listen to my question, please, and answer them.
15 Now, I ask you whether you recalled testifying, like you are
16 doing today from Nedzarici, in a previous case, which is the case
17 Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic. It was in 2007. Do you remember
18 that?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Sir, have you testified before the Tribunal from the Sarajevo
21 field office in Nedzarici?
22 A. Yes, I did testify in Nedzarici, but I can't remember when it
23 was. That's what I'm saying. I don't know when it was.
24 Q. All right. Do you remember what was the case that you testified
25 about?
Page 5621
1 A. No, I don't. I don't know what case it was. I don't remember,
2 rather.
3 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
4 MR. CANNATA: I have no further questions for this witness,
5 Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want to do with 9411?
7 MR. CANNATA: I withdraw the document, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have two seconds.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, actually, I forgot to read out the
13 summary for this witness, in light of the previous documents submitted
14 through him, the witness statements.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. I was saying, Mr. Guy-Smith, your
20 colleague has forgotten something which he would like to read before he
21 gives you an opportunity to cross-examine.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand, and I have no objection to that.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
25 MR. CANNATA: Thank you.
Page 5622
1 Witness Alija Holjan has given evidence in respect of scheduled
2 incident B10 of the indictment, that is the sniping incident occurred on
3 the 27th of February, 1995, in Sarajevo
4 sniper fire when travelling on Zmaja od Bosne, from Stari Grad to
5 Novi Grad, which is westbound direction. This sniping attack resulted in
6 the wounding of Witness Holjan and several other civilians.
7 Witness Holjan testified that the fire came from the direction of
8 the Grbavica sky-scrapers --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Now we have a difficulty because he
10 hasn't testified. There is no testimony. There are three statements,
11 but there's no testimony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the summary, I believe if I'm not
14 mistaken, this part of the statement now is incorrect. Because we don't
15 have that information contained in his -- in his evidence.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But isn't this information contained in his
17 statement?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let me double-check. I don't believe the thing
19 that was just said is contained in the statement.
20 I don't find it.
21 MR. CANNATA: If I might assist. It is now P2313, which is the
22 statement of the 22nd February 1996 -- actually, I'm sorry, it's 2312,
23 the statement of 22 February, 1996, and it's the fourth paragraph, first
24 sentence.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies.
Page 5623
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, sir.
2 MR. CANNATA: Actually concluded my sort summary, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] I thought -- I thought
4 you were still speaking when Mr. Guy-Smith stood up. You said witness
5 Holjan testified that the fire came from the direction of the Grbavica
6 sky-scrapers. Is that the --
7 MR. CANNATA: That's it.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Full stop.
9 Any cross-examination, Mr. Guy-Smith?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: There will be none.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No cross-examination, okay.
12 Questions for the witness?
13 Mr. Holjan, thank you very much for taking time from your very
14 busy schedule to come and testify, and this brings us now to the end of
15 your testimony. You are excused. You may stand down. Once again, thank
16 you, and please travel well back home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
21 MR. CANNATA: I will -- with your leave, I will ask Mr. Dan Saxon
22 to address you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Your Honour, obviously, these witnesses went much more quickly
Page 5624
1 than the Prosecution anticipated. The next witness is a closed session
2 witness, and I'm told he has not yet arrived in The Hague. Therefore, we
3 -- I would ask that we adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning, and -- to
4 call the next witness.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 Court adjourned to tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning.
7 Now, just before we adjourn, there was a bit of confusion this
8 morning. I'm not sure whether we're sitting in Courtroom II tomorrow or
9 Courtroom I. I had it as Courtroom I today and tomorrow, and we are now
10 in Courtroom II.
11 Okay. Then we stand adjourned to Courtroom II tomorrow at 9.00
12 in the morning.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.18 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th of April,
16 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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