Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6226

 1                           Thursday, 14 May, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

11     the day starting with the Prosecution, please.

12             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon,

13     April Carter, Inger de Ru, for the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And for the Defence.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Daniela Tasic,

16     Chad Mair, and Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Perisic.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The size of the team is reduced today.  Thank you

18     so much.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, it is.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call the next witness.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.  Good afternoon to you.

23             MS. CARTER:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  The Prosecution at

24     this time calls Colonel Ijaz Hussain Malik.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Is he still in Pakistan?

Page 6227

 1             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour, I proofed him as of yesterday so he

 2     is somewhere near, I'm just not clear where he is hiking in from.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is he a protected witness?

 4             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, he was for some reason given a

 5     pseudonym MP-212.  But that was inadvertent, he does not require any

 6     protective measures.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.  Will you please make the

 9     declaration.

10             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

11     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  IJAZ HUSSAIN MALIK

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, sir.  You may now be seated.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

16             MS. CARTER:  May it please the court.

17                           Examination by Ms. Carter:

18        Q.   Colonel Malik, will you please introduce yourself to the Court?

19        A.   I'm Colonel Ijaz Hussain Malik and I'm retired from Pakistan

20     army.  Presently I am serving as a major in Bahrain National Guard.

21        Q.   Can you briefly give the Court a description of your educational

22     and professional background?

23        A.   I had my intermediate from military college and the bachelors

24     engineering from the Pakistan military academy.  I did my professional

25     course which is equivalent to the BSC honours from the Staff College in

Page 6228

 1     Pakistan, and in profession, I have about 10, 12 courses within the

 2     country, and I have served the army for 29 years.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Prior to today, were you given an opportunity to

 4     review your previous statement and transcript of your testimony in the

 5     Dragomir Milosevic case?

 6        A.   Yes, I was given the opportunity.  I read it.

 7        Q.   Relating to your statement which bears 65 ter number 9390, you've

 8     indicated that you had a few corrections to be made; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, I made certain corrections but these were basically the

10     clerical mistakes.  There was nothing different from the actual factual

11     evidence.

12        Q.   But in relation to the clerical corrections you requested, please

13     advise if these are the anticipated changes.  At page 2 on the 14th line

14     of the text which currently reads "French, a French OP" should read

15     "French OP."  On page 2 at the 20th line of text which currently reads:

16             "Especially at night we could clearly see when the mortar shell

17     was launched from Ilidza and we," should read "especially at night we

18     could clearly see when the mortar shell was launched from Ilidza and in

19     most cases we."

20             At page 2 of line 24 text, currently reading, "I had a training

21     in Pakistan" should read "I had a very basic training in Pakistan.  Page

22     2 at the 25th line of text you've requested that we strike the language,

23     "before I was sent to the former Yugoslavia," at page 2, line 35, "aimed

24     to" should read "aimed at."

25             Page 3 at the fourth line of text "not could be" should be read

Page 6229

 1     "could not be."  Page 3 at the seventh line of text, "direction of fire

 2     also in another manner," should simply read "direction of fire."

 3             Page 3 at the 9th line of text, "I think that delayed fuses were

 4     used should read, "I think the delayed fuses were used."  Page 3 at the

 5     tenth line of text, "I was injured myself in,"  should read "I was

 6     injured in."

 7             Page 3 at the 29th line of text, "house was for 90 percent,"

 8     should read, "house was 90 percent."  At page 3 at the 38th line of text,

 9     "in my head," should read, "in my forehead."  And finally, page 3 at the

10     39th line of text "I stayed some days," should read, "I stayed for some

11     days."  Are those, the changes that you've indicated?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Bearing in mind these changes, if I were to ask you those same

14     questions today, would your answers be the same?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. CARTER:  I tender 65 ter number 9390 into evidence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

18     given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2343, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. CARTER:

22        Q.   Relating to your transcript which bears the 65 ter numbers 9391,

23     and 9392, you've indicated that you have some changes to suggest there as

24     well in relation to 65 ter 9391; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, it is correct.

Page 6230

 1        Q.   Specifically at transcript page 5399, at line 18, "to Croatia"

 2     should read, "to Croatian."  At transcript page 5399, line 20, in which

 3     the record indicates that your response was indiscernible that should

 4     read "count."  At reference page --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The reference to Croatia, the "to" there, is that

 6     "2" the figure or "to" the preposition?

 7             MS. CARTER:  Two the figure, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You'll have to put "2" the figure there.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   At transcript page 5400 line 7 which currently reads, "city

11     main," should read "main city."  Transcript page 5401, at line 19, "and

12     from," should read "and in."  Transcript page 5401 at line 20,

13     "infantries" should read "infantry," singular.

14             At page 5402, line 17, "gunway" should read, "convoy."

15     Transcript page 5402 at line 19, "normal" should be read, "surrounding."

16     5405, line 19, "they is were timed," should read "they were timed."  And

17     finally at 5405, line 21, "is going do be moved," should read "is going

18     to move."  Are those the changes that you have suggested?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Bearing in mind these changes if I were to ask you those same

21     questions today, would your answers be the same?

22        A.   It would be the same.

23             MS. CARTER:  I tender 65 ter numbers 9391 and 9392 into evidence.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Simultaneously or separately?

25             MS. CARTER:  They would be separate exhibits, Your Honours.

Page 6231

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have exhibit number for 9391 please.

 2     It's admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2344 Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And also for 9292.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2345.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             MS. CARTER:

 8        Q.   For clarity of the record in the Dragomir Milosevic transcript,

 9     P635 was tendered during Colonel Malik's testimony.  It has been

10     previously admitted in the present case as P443.  As this witness has

11     been called pursuant to 92 ter, I would like to read out a brief summary

12     of his testimony.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, ma'am.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, we recently received the brief summary of

15     this witness's testimony, and there is language in it which is, from our

16     review, not only of his statement but also of the transcript factually

17     incorrect.

18             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I took the summary from his statement

19     and our 65 ter summary putting it no a narrative form.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't even know what is factually incorrect.  We

21     haven't been told.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.  There's language that says:

23             "The witness not only saw three to four air-bomb launchings from

24     BSA territory at Ilidza but also fell victim to one on 1 July, 1995."

25             As I understand it, Ms. Carter has indicated that she took that

Page 6232

 1     from the witness's statement, which says:

 2             "In my tour of duty, there were a couple of modified air-bombs

 3     launched from the direction of Bosnian Serb held territory in Ilidza.  I

 4     think I have seen three or four of these bombs."

 5             Which is not -- the witness not only saw but rather speculative

 6     with regard to what he saw as opposed to making a distinction that he saw

 7     a number and then was injured by one.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, as the Court has already pointed out,

10     I've yet to read the summary out for the Court to be able to rule on

11     that.  In fact if I have summarised that specific sentence correctly, if

12     the Court would like me to read out the summary, I certainly can.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I think, Madam Carter, it should be a simple

14     thing for you to deal with if you agree with Mr. Guy-Smith.  If indeed

15     the statement says, "I think I've seen three or four of these bombs."

16     And that is substantially different from saying, "not only saw three or

17     four."  Because "not only saw three or four" means, in fact, he has saw

18     more than three or four.  Not only this but something else.  So it would

19     suggest that he has seen more than three or four.

20             MS. CARTER:  If the Court feels that that is the intimation, I

21     can certainly forego that sentence.  As the Court is aware, any summary

22     that I would read out would simply be a summary to allow anybody who is

23     witnessing this trial with the evidence itself is coming from the

24     transcript.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, go ahead and prosecute your case.

Page 6233

 1             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             Colonel Malik is a retired Colonel in the Pakistani Army

 3     currently serving with the Bahrain National Guard.  He served as a

 4     United Nations military observer beginning in October 1994.  In May of

 5     1995, he was deployed to Sarajevo to serve on the SI-team stationed at

 6     Hrasnica.  The witness provides evidence primarily regarding shelling

 7     incidents and crater analyses.  In the witness's area of responsibility,

 8     most of the shelling was aimed at civilian areas --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters.

10             MS. CARTER:  Certainly.

11             The witness indicates that he thought he had seen three to four

12     of these bombs.  In addition, he also fell victim to a bomb on 1 July,

13     1995.  This incident is scheduled incident A-8.  The witness states that

14     an air-bomb is an indiscriminate weapon that cannot be used against

15     troops.

16             And I now turn to the present evidence of this witness.

17        Q.   Colonel Malik, in the Dragomir Milosevic case, you were shown a

18     map which you proceeded to annotate throughout the transcript from pages

19     5403 to 5409.  Unfortunately, we do not have that map here today so for

20     clarity of the record, we must undergo this exercise again.

21             MS. CARTER:  I call up P439.  At the lower left quadrant, and

22     I'll be requesting the assistance of the usher.

23        Q.   Colonel Malik, can you orient yourself to this map?

24        A.   Yes, please.

25        Q.   I know you in your Dragomir Milosevic testimony had some

Page 6234

 1     difficulty identifying locations on the map.  Is it zoomed in enough for

 2     you to be able to identify those locations now?

 3        A.   I think it's much clearer now.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Sir, with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to ask

 5     you to locate Hrasnica and mark that location with an H.  Sir, as we were

 6     having technical difficulties, if you can again mark the area Hrasnica

 7     with an H.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   I see that you've done so.  Colonel Malik, will you now mark the

10     location of your observation post with the initials OP?

11        A.   I'll mark it but maybe I'm doing it after 14, 15 year, so it will

12     not be 100 percent correct, but I think that it was very close to the

13     track that was on the Igman hill.  Somewhere here.

14        Q.   If you can mark that location with an OP.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, can you please mark the Convoy Road.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   If you can mark the Convoy Road with a C, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And finally, can you please also draw the route to Sarajevo?

21        A.   If the buildup area here is the Sokolovic and Butmir.  As I

22     remember I can recall probably it was the road used.  It was from the

23     right of the strip, right corner of the strip where the built-up area is

24     if it is Sokolovic and Butmir probably it used to go from the inside of

25     these two places.

Page 6235

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  And finally, will you please mark the

 2     location of Ilidza with an I?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 5             MS. CARTER:  I ask that a screen shot be taken of this annotated

 6     map and that it be tendered into evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

 8     exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2346, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MS. CARTER:

12        Q.   Sir, beginning at page 5413 of your Dragomir Milosevic

13     transcript, you describe the air-bomb incident where you personally were

14     fell victim.

15             MS. CARTER:  I call up P442.  Is there any way to show both

16     images?  There we go.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recognise these images?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What are they?

20        A.   The one down below is our house, and this was the UN vehicle

21     which was damaged during the incident.

22        Q.   Where were you within the house at the lower portion of our

23     screen?

24        A.   Shall I mark it?

25        Q.   Certainly.

Page 6236

 1             MS. CARTER:  With the assistance of the usher, that would be

 2     helpful.

 3             THE WITNESS:  You can see this window.  I was just in front of it

 4     two metres from this place in the window.  There was a dining table, I

 5     was sitting on that and writing a letter.

 6             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, sir.  If I may have a screen shot of this

 7     image and tender it into evidence.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 9     given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2347, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             MS. CARTER:

13        Q.   Sir, on the day of the air-bomb incident, was the vehicle that we

14     see in this image the sole vehicle or item that was in front of this

15     house?

16        A.   You say again, I couldn't get the question.

17        Q.   We see one vehicle in front of the house in this picture.  Was

18     that the only thing in front of the house the day of the air-bomb attack?

19        A.   No.  There were another vehicle that was [indiscernible] vehicle

20     and then we have a generator also in front of this vehicle.  You see two

21     or three vehicles turning here.

22        Q.   What happened to those other two items that we don't see in this

23     picture?

24        A.   I think they removed it from here now.  This was the mostly

25     damaged car.  The other one was comparatively lesser and that was used

Page 6237

 1     for evacuating the other UNMO, the military observer, [indiscernible]

 2     officer and probably that was the reason that it was not here.  So that

 3     was used for evacuating the other UNMO to the hospital.  But that was

 4     also damaged, but not -- it was in working condition; whereas the

 5     generator, it was a heavy generator, electric generator, and this after

 6     effect, because of the pressure jumped from that place and was fallen

 7     about two metres away inside the house.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, jumped [Microphone not activated] the

10     generator jumped?

11             THE WITNESS:  When I say jumped, it was because of the pressure,

12     it just blown off and on the other side.  The generator is not jumping

13     itself, but because of the pressure.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm so sorry.  I'll repeat my question.  You say

16     it had been outside and as it got blown it fell inside the house?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

19             MS. CARTER:

20        Q.   Sir, how heavy was that generator?

21        A.   Sorry?

22        Q.   How heavy was that generator?

23        A.   It was pretty heavy.  When we had to move it, almost the entire

24     team used to come out to move it from that place to any other place.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And as to the top image, what is that?

Page 6238

 1        A.   I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think this is the second

 2     house.  The second house that was damaged, more than our house.  We were

 3     lucky we had these vehicles in front of us, so mainly the [indiscernible]

 4     was on these vehicles [indiscernible]; whereas the second house, which

 5     was - if we refer to the picture down below - it was on the right of it,

 6     and there was nothing in front of there, so that got more damaged.

 7             MS. CARTER:  I thank you, sir, for your answers.  And I pass the

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Carter.

10             Mr. Guy-Smith.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

12        Q.   The house that you were staying in Hrasnica was a home that you

13     were staying in with a number of other members of your United Nations

14     military observation unit; correct?

15        A.   It is not a unit.  It is the United Nations military observers,

16     and normally there's a team, officer 10 to 12 military observers; and the

17     higher accomodation [indiscernible] in that area are several

18     accommodation, and they stay together in that, so it was one team staying

19     there.

20        Q.   Okay.  Team.  And the team that you were staying with included, I

21     believe, a Canadian gentleman by the name of Captain Hash or Hache.  I

22     don't know how you pronounce it exactly?

23        A.   Yes, there was one Canadian.

24        Q.   And you learned, did you not, after you were taken from the house

25     that some soldiers had come to the house and had stolen some of the

Page 6239

 1     possessions of the UNMO team; correct?

 2        A.   Correct, but I not say exactly the soldiers.  There was some

 3     people in soldier's uniform.

 4        Q.   I see.

 5        A.   And few civilians also.

 6        Q.   So it was a combination of individuals in soldier's uniforms and

 7     civilians who came after you left and stole some items from the home?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And they stole, as I understand it, not only personal items from

10     the standpoint of money, but they also stole a number of items that had

11     been assigned to your team; correct?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever personally determine whether or not the

14     individuals who were dressed in uniforms were members of the ABiH army?

15        A.   Can you repeat the question, I'm not really sure of the question,

16     please.

17        Q.   Sure.  Did you ever personally learn, after the incident

18     occurred, whether or not the individuals who were dressed in uniforms who

19     had stolen from your team were members of the ABiH army?

20        A.   No, after that incident our team shifted from that place to

21     the -- to another place which what a little away from that area, and,

22     frankly, I'm not really sure.  I mean it was just reporting by my

23     friends.  I personally did not do it.

24        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the time that you were at the home in

25     Hrasnica, did you have occasion to see groups of individuals dressed in

Page 6240

 1     military uniforms that belong to the ABiH army?

 2        A.   Groups, if you call three to four people, yes, I had seen.  But

 3     not more than that.  And the reason was, I mean, that was what we were

 4     told there, that many of these soldiers, the ABiH soldiers, they ignite

 5     some of them, they stay there on the top, and some of them where they

 6     have their houses there, they come there down and stay at their house for

 7     say, two hours, three hours, four hours and then go back.

 8        Q.   And when you were told that many of these soldiers, the ABiH

 9     soldiers, would stay there on the top, were they staying on the top in a

10     particular area together?  So, for example, you saw a number of small

11     groups of three or four individuals dressed in military uniforms who all

12     were going towards the same area?

13        A.   No, I never seen them going on that side.  I've seen them on the

14     area that we live, that is, in those streets where we at time just one;

15     at certain other time, two, three, and roaming in that area, and

16     generally the people used to say that they are coming from the front and

17     they'll go back after two, three hours, four hours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Malik, you it may very well be that counsel

19     understands what you say, but some of us will not understand, and I would

20     like you to be a little more precise.  The second time now.  The first

21     time you said they stayed there on the top.  We don't know, top of what.

22     Now you say, they were going that side, I don't know which side.

23             THE WITNESS:  Right, sir.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see that.

25             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I would like to explain.  It maybe with the

Page 6241

 1     help of the map.  The point is, if you -- Hrasnica was at the base of the

 2     Igman hill.  On the right and left, that is Igman hilltop and towards the

 3     right and left tops --

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might interrupt you because you said you

 5     could use the benefit of a map, so I would suggest for a moment, let's

 6     get a map up on the screen which could be of some assistance then.  Which

 7     would be P439.  If we could have P439 up on the screen.  Then if the

 8     usher could assist with the explanation he is giving His Honour.

 9        Q.   First of all, before we go any further is the size of the area

10     sufficient for you to be able to work with and make the explanations you

11     were making to His Honour, or would you like it a little bit bigger?

12        A.   Certainly I'll not be able to point out the exact locations

13     because I've not been to those places.  I'll just give the general line

14     that we were told that they go back.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Actually when you say at the top, if you just

17     explain at the top of what, then we understand.

18             THE WITNESS:  The top of the right and left corner of the Igman

19     hill.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is fine.  Thank you so much.

21             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:

24        Q.   And could you tell us as you sit here today whether or not when

25     you saw these individuals in groups, and I understand these were small

Page 6242

 1     groups, but when you saw these individuals in groups, did you count these

 2     groups and then put them into a report for purposes of forwarding on to

 3     your headquarters?

 4        A.   Two or three probably was not an alarming number, so I'm not very

 5     sure whether it was reported or not.  But definitely I had seen these

 6     two, three, fours.

 7        Q.   Did you see these groups on a daily basis?  What happened after

 8     the fighting every day, every other day?  How often did you see them?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You keep refer together groups and the witness

10     keeps saying two to three people.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's what I meant by a group, two to three.

12     I'm not trying to muddy the record.

13        Q.   The two to three people that you saw wearing uniforms; did you

14     see these people on a daily basis?

15        A.   Not for a specific time but just off and on.  Maybe one day I see

16     them, the other day not and the second day after.  But, yes, maybe after

17     the one or two days, yes.

18        Q.   Were you able to identify the two to three people that you saw as

19     being the same each time that you saw them, or were you seeing different

20     people?

21        A.   Yes, same people I would identify were the one, and they were

22     staying when one went to the Sokolovic, they were just -- I mean, the

23     house that we are renting, just in front of that house, that belongs to

24     one of the soldier, so he used to come by, identified him, but rest, no.

25        Q.   Could you tell us if you know what the rank was of these

Page 6243

 1     soldiers?

 2        A.   Say again, please?

 3        Q.   The rank of these soldiers?

 4        A.   They were CPO [phoen] of the lower rank CPO [indiscernible],

 5     soldiers, not the officers.

 6        Q.   Apart from those soldiers, did you have occasion while you were

 7     going on your patrol from your home to the observation post to see other

 8     soldiers strolling about from the BiH army --

 9        A.   I had not said that I had not seen, maybe one or two, but

10     alarming case was not there, I have not seen 10, 12, 20 people roaming in

11     that area when we used to move from our location to the OP.

12        Q.   With regard to the kind of information that was contained in your

13     reports as a member of an UNMO team, did you receive information from

14     UNPROFOR which you acted upon or included in your reports?

15        A.   Yes, there was a form that we used to fill in and send it across.

16        Q.   Okay.  And would it be fair to say that there was active sharing

17     of information back and forth between UNPROFOR and the UNMOs concerning

18     what was going on?

19        A.   Right, I'm sorry, I would not like to be confused with UNPROFOR

20     and UNMOs.  The UNMO has their own channels.  We used to follow that.  So

21     I thought when I gave the last answer, UNPROFOR, it was not UNPROFOR that

22     way, it is UNMOs, and sharing and back sharing, I'm not really sure, what

23     is the question?

24        Q.   Did you share information with UNPROFOR units concerning the

25     observations that you made?

Page 6244

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   After July 1st, you left the Hrasnica area?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And moved to another area; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And where was that?

 9        A.   That was in Sokolovic.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could -- the map is still there.

11        Q.   Could you identify for us on the map where that is?

12        A.   As I recall, probably there's a little difference between the map

13     and the one that I can recall.  The built-up area here is a little

14     towards the left, whereas I thought probably it should be towards the

15     right; but the first built-up area after Hrasnica, this is Sokolovic, and

16     towards the closer side of the air strip, we got a house.

17        Q.   And you maintained the same observation post that you had

18     previously identified; correct?

19        A.   This was by the French, and we used to visit that place, yes.

20     And sorry, and other than this, there was another one also which we were

21     manning.  Again it was the French.  Basically it was the French

22     observation post.  It was on the airport.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   And one of UNMO used to work there and stay with them for

25     sometime.

Page 6245

 1        Q.   Could you mark on this map here the area that you designated as a

 2     second home as H2 for your second house?

 3        A.   I may not be 100 percent correct.

 4        Q.   I understand, this is approximation.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   It's the best one can do with the passage of time.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And could you also mark on that map the area which would be OP2,

 9     which is the French observation post that you were referring to?

10        A.   It was a tower.

11        Q.   I'm sorry I missed that last word, I apologise.  It was a --

12        A.   The tower that we have in the airport.

13        Q.   Tower.  Oh, I understand.  My apologies.  How high was that

14     tower?

15        A.   Exactly, I'm not sure, but ATC and the people that have been

16     sitting there, maybe two stories.

17        Q.   Okay.  Just for purposes of clarity of the record, if you could

18     mark that, that second place where you put a circle with OP2, I would

19     appreciate it.

20        A.   Yes, please.

21        Q.   And when you say that the tower was two stories, we previously

22     saw photograph of a home that you were living in, was that the height of

23     the tower?  Is that the kind of two stories that you are talking about or

24     was it higher?

25        A.   I think a little higher than the house.

Page 6246

 1        Q.   Can you give us an approximation of how many metres, per chance.

 2     If you can, it's fine; if you can't --

 3        A.   I'm not sure if I have an incorrect answer, maybe 30, 40 metres.

 4     I'm not really sure.  The ATC tower that we have in the airport, exact,

 5     I'm not really sure.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That would be 13, 14 metres higher than the house

 7     in which you were staying, or is that from the ground?

 8             THE WITNESS:  That is from the ground, sir.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  From the ground, thank you.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay that clarifies it.

11        Q.   Lastly just regard to this one issue again concerning the area

12     where OP2 was, was that area on elevated ground, or was --

13        A.   No, it was normal plain ground.  It was the unused ATC tower of

14     the old airport.

15        Q.   Okay.  Perfect, I understand now.

16        A.   Yes, please.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.

18        A.   Thank you, sir.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you Mr. Guy-Smith.

20             Madam Carter.

21             MS. CARTER:  If I can have just one moment.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I believe the exhibits that have been

24     tendered in this case speak for themselves, so I have no further

25     questions.

Page 6247

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You said the exhibits what?

 2     Okay.  Thank you so much, I heard you, thank you.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And you are going to ask me what I want to do

 4     with this, yes, if we could tender that as Defendant's next in order,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could that map please be admitted in as an exhibit

 7     and be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D95.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] I have a question that I would

12     like to ask you.  There's something that I didn't quite understand in

13     your testimony.  You said that every now and again, but not every day

14     there were soldiers from the ABiH army that were in the vicinity of your

15     observation post; is that correct?

16             And I didn't quite understand whether they were there because

17     they live there and they were coming to visit their family, or they were

18     coming home every now and again, or whether it was because they were on

19     rounds or patrolling the neighbourhood, or whether there was barracks in

20     the vicinity.  What was the reason for them being there?  Could you

21     explain, please.

22        A.   Number one, you said it was closer to our OP; no, it was not OP.

23     It was closer to our accommodation, which was a street, and we could find

24     the people in those streets.

25             Number two is regarding the patrolling, as I know, we were told

Page 6248

 1     that they have shifts, when I said they were there on the top, that is

 2     they were defending there, they were deployed there, whatever they were

 3     doing there, they had shift; some of them used to stay there and some of

 4     them used to come down to their houses for staying a night, for staying

 5     two or three hours and then going back.  In process if they were

 6     patrolling two, three, I can't say.  I'm not very sure.  But certainly

 7     they were coming down and going back.

 8             We used to see them in the streets not in our observation.

 9     Observation post is on the Igman hill, and we haven't seen people closer

10     to that observation post.

11             JUDGE PICARD:  [Interpretation] All right.  I've understood what

12     mistake I made.  In other words, they came in your neighbourhood or close

13     to the house you were living in because they were visiting family?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, any questions arising?

16             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

19                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

20        Q.   So I understand, because as I understand your answer, you told

21     that they have shifts when they were on the top, they were defending

22     there, they were deployed there, whatever they were doing there.  So

23     would it be fair to say that what happened is you saw these individuals

24     moving through an area where, based upon the information you had, they

25     were engaged in military activities on occasion, and also you saw people,

Page 6249

 1     those same people, moving through the area where they were engaged in

 2     sleeping at night before they would once again engage in military

 3     activities?

 4        A.   Sir, I'm sure you must be clear about the area.  The line, the

 5     conflict line was not very far off.  It was right on the left and right

 6     of the Igman hill and then going right around this area, so I'll say,

 7     yes, on the top, definitely.  I mean, it was not accessible to us, we

 8     have never been to that place, but somebody fighting there; so I'm sure

 9     they must be -- the soldiers coming must be from that place.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you so much.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             That brings us to the end of your testimony, sir.  Thank you so

13     much for coming all the way to come and testify at the Tribunal.  You are

14     now excused, you may stand down.  And please do travel well back home,

15     sir.

16             THE WITNESS:  I'm so grateful, sir.  Thank you so much.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may stand down.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, yes, I see you standing up.

20             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, that is the last witness whom the

21     Prosecution has scheduled for this week.  As I believe the Chamber is

22     aware, the previously next scheduled witness, Mr. Tucker, who was going

23     to begin testifying on Monday will not be able to start his testimony

24     next week because of issues that have arisen.  Therefore, the next

25     scheduled witness would be General Smith beginning on the morning of

Page 6250

 1     Wednesday the 20th.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So we are not sitting on Monday and Tuesday, is

 3     that what you are saying?

 4             MR. SAXON:  We do not have a witness for Monday and Tuesday,

 5     Your Honour, that's correct.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, next week, Wednesday is 20th.  The

 7     matter stands adjourned to Wednesday the 20th of May at 9.00 in the

 8     morning, Courtroom I.  Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.10 p.m.

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of May

11                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.