1 Tuesday, 14 July, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. And good morning to everybody in New York.
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
10 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
13 the day starting with the Prosecution, please.
14 MS. BOLTON: Good afternoon. Carmela Javier, Lorna Bolton,
15 Evangelos Thomas.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 And for the Defence.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good afternoon. Daniela Tasic, Chad
19 Kate Marshall, Tina Drolec, Novak Lukic, and Gregor Guy-Smith.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 Mr. Sacirbey, again, let's go through the ritual, still bound
22 which the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
24 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, it's understood.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Sacirbey.
1 Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 WITNESS: MUHAMED SACIRBEY [Resumed]
3 [Witness testified via videolink]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]
5 Q. We had left off yesterday discussing whether or not you had
6 formally made mention of your criticism of Mr. Akashi and General Rose.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can we have 1D03-0796 up on the screen, which
8 would be tab number 43.
9 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. This is a letter, if I'm not mistaken, it was written on the 25th
12 of October, 1994. Its distribution is general. And by that I understand
13 that this is a letter that was distributed to the General Assembly and to
14 the Security Council; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And turning to the letter itself, if we could, as I understand
17 this letter --
18 A. Yes, I have that.
19 Q. As I understand this letter, this is a letter that came from
20 representative parliamentary parties of the assembly of the Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina which you forwarded in your capacity as the ambassador
22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. If we could go to paragraph 2 of the letter itself. In
25 paragraph 2 the letter states:
1 "In this respect, the conduct of Lieutenant-General
2 Sir Michael Rose commander of the United Nations protected force
3 [UNPROFOR) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in diverting the attention and
4 resolve of the free world from punishing criminal acts and fascism to
5 peripheral issues is unacceptable." Correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And this is a position that you adopted in your capacity as
8 ambassador; true?
9 A. Well, this letter is forwarded by the leadership of, I believe,
10 if not all most of the political parties in the parliament at that time.
11 Q. I appreciate that.
12 A. I was not asked to adopt it; I was only asked to pass it on.
13 Q. At this point I'm saying in your capacity as the ambassador for
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you adopted the assertions made in this letter, did
15 you not? This is not something that you were trying to shy away from, is
17 A. If you are asking me, did I personally agree and did I espouse
18 some of these views at the representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
19 answer is yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. But in order to forward this letter, I did not have to agree or
22 disagree with the assertions made therein.
23 Q. That's understood. Going to the last paragraph of the first page
24 it says:
25 "We therefore request that the Lieutenant-General
1 Sir Michael Rose relinquish his current post and duties. We request an
2 objective and impartial commander who would carry out the implementation
3 of United Nations resolutions on the ground, an individual," next page,
4 please, "who would serve legitimate United Nations interests, rather than
5 the interests of his/her national government."
6 And then it's signed by, as I understand it, a number of
7 representative parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did you share the opinion
8 and did you espouse the opinion in your capacity as ambassador for
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina that Lieutenant-General Sir Michael Rose was involved
10 in operating for the interests of his national government as opposed to
11 -- [overlapping speakers]... the interests of the United Nations.
12 A. In that sense you mean the United Kingdom?
13 Q. That's correct.
14 A. Not necessarily. I believe -- I believe General Rose can be
15 characterised in terms of his behaviour in many ways. One of them is
16 potentially that at times he gave greater due consideration to the
17 interest of his national government than, let's say, the United Nations.
18 But I do not believe that that was in fact the particular issue that was
19 at stake here or the one that was really being addressed, as I think I
20 mentioned yesterday.
21 Q. Excuse me, I'm just trying to understand the language here, which
22 is the language at the end of the paragraph says:
23 "... an individual who would serve legitimate United Nations
24 interests rather than the interest of his/her national government."
25 That seems to be relatively focused language, does it not?
1 A. It sure does.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 A. But you asked me did I share this view personally.
4 Q. Yes. No, I asked you whether you shared the view in your
5 capacity as ambassador.
6 A. As I said I don't have to share the view in order --
7 Q. That is not my question, Mr. Sacirbey. Mr. Sacirbey, my question
8 is not whether you have to or do not have it; that I appreciate. My
9 question is, Did you?
10 A. As best to some degree but really not to the degree stated in
11 this letter.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, can I have this marked as Defendant's
13 next in order.
14 Can we please have on the screen --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted into evidence. May it please be
16 given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall be given
18 Exhibit D152. Thank you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Next could we have 1D03-4599. Mr. Registrar,
20 that will be document number 12 in the first packet that was provided to
22 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I trust you are
25 looking at "New York Times" article dated November 5 1994, entitled arms
1 trafficking to Bosnia
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. First of all, once again this is a periodical that I believe you
4 are familiar with, the "New York Times."
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. And with regard to this specific article concerning the
7 trafficking of arms to Bosnia
8 that you are familiar with?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 Q. Looking at paragraph number 1 it states:
11 "... Even as United Nations discusses lifting the arms embargo
12 on Bosnia and Herzegovina, the embargo appears to have become largely a
13 fiction openly flouted." Right?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. With regard to the matter of discussing lifting the arms embargo,
16 one of your primary focuses as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina was
17 to get the embargo lifted, was it not? I understand you had many others?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Okay. And with regard to November of 1994, at this point I take
20 it that you were obtaining some traction in your diplomatic efforts in
21 regards to being able to openly obtain weapons of war. You were
22 beginning to get a shift in the tide.
23 A. That is correct.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me for two minutes, Mr. Sacirbey, I'm
25 having a slight technical problem, but I'll be okay in a minute, I think.
1 We're fine.
2 Q. Now, I'd like to, for a moment, if I could, perhaps, discuss your
3 function as a diplomat, and specifically as ambassador for
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the particular issue of weapons and
5 war. And I'd like to ask you to comment on the following, if you could:
6 "Diplomacy is often popularly thought of as the peaceful
7 alternative to violence, but in fact, diplomacy serves to prepare as
8 often as to avoid war. It is an important part of waging war. It often
9 makes the difference in who wins and nearly always codifies war's
10 results. Again, diplomacy is the verbal representation of compelling
11 international realities, and military force is one of those realities."
12 Would you agree with that, sir?
13 A. Not in all, but in part. I certainly was not in Bosnian
14 diplomacy when the war started out, so to talk of preparation for war was
15 beyond my experience. But I certainly did find that in fact diplomacy
16 did legitimize, codify as you've used the word, the consequences of war,
17 and in my opinion at times the consequences of genocide. And I think
18 that was one of unfortunate results of what we have come to call
19 diplomacy and the Dayton Accords in Bosnia
20 Q. Thank you. I'd like to go back to the article that we were
21 looking at. And if we could go to page 2 of the article, which is
22 discussing the effects of increase in arms. It says:
23 "The effect of this increase in arms available to the Bosnian
24 Muslim and allied Bosnian Croat forces has been evident in the last week
25 in two successful offensives against the long-dominant Bosnian Serbs.
1 The first offensive burst through Serbian lines east of Bihac in the
2 north-west; the second resulted in the capture of the town of Kupres
3 the west central part of the country."
4 Now, with regard to those particular battles, those are battles
5 that you were aware of, were you not?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Okay. And with regard to battles in general, going to the summer
8 of 1994, there was a relatively strong offensive in June, was there not?
9 A. I'm sorry, in June of what year? I didn't hear you,
10 Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 Q. 1994. 1994.
12 A. I'm not aware of an offensive in June 1994.
13 Q. Very well. Moving to the next page, I'm not sure it's the same
14 in terms of e-court, but it would be the bottom paragraph on page 3 where
15 it says:
16 "Apart from east Europe
17 trafficking valued at about $500 million in the last two years appears to
18 have been Muslim countries. Mr. Beaver and other analysts estimated that
21 Is that figure there, the figure of 1500 tons of ammunition, a
22 figure that you were aware of whilst you were --
23 A. No, it's not.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I just don't have personal knowledge of these numbers.
1 Q. Very well. Do you have any reason to dispute these numbers?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
4 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have no knowledge one way or the
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, sorry.
7 Madam Bolton.
8 MS. BOLTON: In my view it's not an appropriate question, and he
9 doesn't have reason to dispute it. He either knows it or he doesn't know
10 it. He said he doesn't know it.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: He said he doesn't have personal knowledge. If
12 he has other kinds of knowledge, then he may have a reason to dispute it,
13 he may not.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have any other kinds of reasons to know
15 about these figures, Mr. Sacirbey?
16 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Not beyond what I've really seen in
17 general media reports.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Let's just be clear about this, apart from your general media
20 reports, did you not receive what we've termed on-the-ground information
21 concerning what assets your army actually had?
22 A. The only reports I would receive is what was necessary for
23 defence, particularly anti-tank weapons. The value of such assets, the
24 amount of such assets, and where they may have been designated is not
25 something that was linked to my duties.
1 Q. Well, with regard to the value of such assets, you've told us
2 that you had some meetings at least with some Russian delegates in which
3 there was a discussion about the purchase of various armaments. Now, my
4 question to you is, Did you discuss a price, then?
5 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, could I have a page references for that
6 discussion from my friend.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're looking at looking at the --
8 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I don't think --
9 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, just hold on. We are looking at a
11 page on the screen, Madam, which -- whose last paragraph starts with
12 "apart from East Europe."
13 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, but was there a specific reference to some
14 meetings at -- with Russian delegates, which there was a discussion of
15 the purchase of various armaments?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I'm not mistaken, and I think Mr. Sacirbey
17 confirmed this yesterday in passing and we will get to it, you had
18 meetings with delegates from --
19 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I'm --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. You had meetings from delegates who
21 were from Russia
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Guy-Smith, you can't ignore your
23 learned friend who is on her feet.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. I am sorry.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Your learned friend doesn't understand how
1 you link those meetings with this paragraph.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: The way that I link the meetings with the
3 paragraph is because, as you said, it's eastern Europe.
4 MS. BOLTON: What I'm asking my friend to do, Your Honour, is --
5 in accordance with the guide-lines, is that not to para-phrase what a
6 witness has said, but to actually put to them what they said previously
7 when called been to do so. So this is just part of the evidence from
8 yesterday that I don't recall if it was from yesterday, and I'm simply
9 asking my friend to tell me where it appears in the transcript so I can
10 be sure he is being accurate in his wording of the question.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's the problem.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fair enough, and we'll -- we will attend to that.
13 Now, I'll move on for a second until we pull up the specific page
14 reference here.
15 I move the admission of this particular document at this time.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
19 Exhibit D153.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. During your time as an ambassador, you were concerned about the
23 fact that UNPROFOR was delivering fuel to Bosnian Serbs; correct?
24 A. I believe so, but I don't recall the specifics of that.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I were to include in your
1 concern that you had been told that the reason that UNPROFOR was
2 delivering such fuel was to engage in clearing the roads of snow. And
3 you had taken the position that this is an "example of how UNPROFOR's
4 resources are pruned to serve the interests of a war machine."
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whose war machine?
6 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I think I remember the reference.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. That would be the Serbian war machine,
8 Your Honour.
9 Q. If I'm not mistaken; correct?
10 A. I, again, did not hear you on that last point.
11 Q. That would have been, as you put it, the Serbian war machine,
12 because His Honour asked which war machine.
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Apart from -- this is something that you actually raised in front
15 of the Security Council, did you not?
16 A. This is a point I haven't, frankly, revisited for many years so
17 I'm trying to recollect. I believe I did, but I just, again, I have not
18 had the opportunity to refresh my memory for a long time on this point.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have 1D03-0648, tab 34, page 4.
20 Q. I don't know if you have that yet, sir. Oh, you do, good.
21 A. Yes, I do, I believe. We are talking about a 9 November 1994
22 Security Council --
23 Q. Correct. If you look at the second column it says:
24 "Today I was informed that the Serbians will in fact be given
25 more fuel by UNPROFOR, in order, ostensibly, to clear the roads of snow.
1 This is but one example of how UNPROFOR's resources are pruned to serve
2 the interests of a war machine."
3 Does that --
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Does that refresh your recollection with regard to your complaint
6 in this regard -- by that I mean that UNPROFOR was supplying fuel to the
7 Bosnian Serbs?
8 A. Again, not being particularly fresh on the circumstances here,
9 but these are obviously my words and I -- my memory is adequately
10 refreshed, at least as to that point.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the first page of this document. I see
12 this first page talks of a letter dated 3rd November, 1994, from the
13 permanent representative from Pakistan
14 the president of the Security Council. Is that what is contained, what
15 you are referring to or -- I'm trying to see whether what was being
16 quoted --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Sacirbey made a speech at that time, and I'm
18 using this solely for the purposes of refreshing his recollection. I
19 don't intend on introducing this as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that part of his speech that you quoted to him?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... Thank you. You may
23 proceed. You are not tendering this?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I'm not.
25 If we could now have 1D03-4607, which would be tab 14 in the
1 original group of articles.
2 Q. Do you have a copy of that, Mr. Sacirbey?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And that's an article entitled "US looks away as Iran
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Looking at paragraph 1, it states:
8 "'The Clinton Administration has chosen to ignore weapons
9 shipments from Iran
10 year have added considerably to Bosnian's military fire-power,' American
11 officials said today. 'They said that the United States has ample
12 evidence of the Iranian deliveries, which are in violation of the
13 United Nations embargo that bans arms shipments to all combatants in the
14 Bosnian civil war, but they said the Administration had not tried in any
15 way to cut off the flow. The Administration said last fall that it would
16 no longer take part in efforts to enforce the embargo on shipments to the
18 Now, you told us yesterday that you had a conversation with
19 Mr. Holbrooke, my question to you is, was the conversation that you had
20 with Mr. Holbrooke in the fall of 1994 with regard to this particular
21 matter, which is that there would not be any enforcement of the embargo
22 by the United States, but there also would be, if I understood your
23 testimony correctly, willing to assist in this regard, in getting you
25 A. I'm not sure I understood the last part of your question, but I
1 am very clear that we were told by Ambassador Holbrooke that in exchange
2 for not pressing or the lifting of the arms embargo in the US Congress.
3 In fact, weapons would be allowed to flow from any source, and again
4 citing his words exactly, including Iran. Whether that meant the
5 United States itself would directly participate, if that's what your
6 question is, I'm not sure I'm in a position to respond to that.
7 Q. When you say you are not in a position to respond to that, are
8 you asserting any kind of privilege, or are you saying that you don't
10 A. I don't have personal knowledge directly.
11 Q. When you say you don't have personal knowledge directly, I take
12 it what you are telling us is that you did not hear from the horse's
13 mouth, in this sense, Ambassador Holbrooke, that the United States would
14 be actively assisting in supplying you with weapons; correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Had you --
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Had you obtained such information from other sources?
19 A. Again wishing to be entirely clear on this point, there were
20 reasons to believe that in fact there were other -- there was other
21 assistance, yes.
22 Q. Well, unfortunately, your attempt to be clear has left me
23 somewhat confused, so I need to pursue this a bit.
24 You say there was reason to believe that in fact there was other
25 assistance. Could you kindly explain to the Chamber what you mean by
1 that statement, that there was reason to believe that in fact there was
2 other assistance.
3 A. As I believe you are aware, by 1995 there were various types of
4 military institutions, private or quasi-private that were engaged in
5 providing training and assistance, particularly in Croatia. Whether that
6 included anything more tangible beyond strategic assistance, I'm not
7 sure, nor would I have any reason to have been directly privy to such
9 Q. With regard to what you've just said, you said there were various
10 types of military institutions, private or quasi-private. I'm not sure
11 that I am understanding what you are saying here. And perhaps, once
12 again, you can be of some assistance to the Chamber in this regard. When
13 you're talking about military institutions, are you referring to military
14 institutions of states, or are you referring to some kind of military
15 institution, for example, a private institution such as Blackwater?
16 A. The nature of such institutions may have been very different than
17 Blackwater which served mainly, as I understand it, in the Iraq
18 serves as a form of private contract that's providing security. The
19 institutions that I'm familiar with would have had to have received
20 approval from the US
21 but in fact were not, at least as far as I am aware of, an institution of
22 the US
23 comparison to Backwater is only somewhat appropriate here in the sense
24 that they were in fact private enterprises, as I understand them. To
25 what extent they were linked to governments, I'm not certain.
1 Q. You indicate in your last answer:
2 "The institutions I'm familiar with would have had to receive
3 approval from the US
4 So with regard to the institutions that you are familiar with,
5 could you please identify for the Chamber those institutions that you are
6 familiar with, that you state would have to have received approval from
7 the US
8 A. To give you the context of how I'm familiar with these
9 institutions, at least --
10 Q. I am sorry, I'm asking you for you to -- I'm asking for you to
11 answer the question now, as opposed to jump around it. And I'm asking
12 you to tell us --
13 A. I'm not --
14 Q. To identify the institutions, sir.
15 A. I must, again, emphasise that I would need to have my memory
16 refreshed as to the actual name, but my opinion is that these
17 institutions were cited even in the media, so I'm sure would not be very
18 difficult to refresh my memory.
19 Q. Well, I'm not in a position here to refresh your memory, and I'm
20 really following --
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. -- your lead here, because this is something that you have
23 brought up to us.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Which is that there were some private institutions, from what I
1 understand your answer, had some form of government sanction that you
2 were aware of.
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Okay. And could you --
5 A. As to the names, I'm sorry, I just don't recall the name.
6 Q. And who did you have -- did you have conversations with any of
7 your colleagues at the United Nations concerning this matter, and by
8 colleagues, I'm not talking about your own delegation, but other
9 diplomats of other member states?
10 A. Other than Croatia
11 Q. Very well. If we could go back to the article, I believe we were
12 on page -- I think it's on page 2. And going down to the -- the
13 paragraph that starts with "Mr. Clinton":
14 It says: "Mr. Clinton had said it would be unwise for the
15 United States to flout the United Nations resolution. But today his top
16 aides noted carefully that nothing in the resolution requires the United
17 States to report violations."
18 Now, with regard to the issue of 713 and the reporting of
19 violations, was the topic a matter of common conversation either formally
20 or informally at the United Nations, that there was no necessity to
21 report violations of the embargo by member states?
22 A. By the US
23 Q. No, by member states.
24 A. By the United States?
25 Q. No, by member states.
1 A. Only in the context of one state here, United States.
2 Q. So with regard to the balance of the member states, there was no
3 discussion as to whether or not any other member states would have a duty
4 under 713 to report violations of the embargo.
5 A. No, there were such discussions. No, there were such discussions
6 involving other states as well.
7 Q. Okay, and with regard to the discussions involving other states,
8 be they informal or formal, am I accurate in my assumption that it was
9 incumbent upon member states to inform the United Nations,
10 General Assembly, or Security Council, or -- of violations of the
12 A. I do not believe such an international legal obligation existed.
13 Q. Okay. Was it a matter that was discussed as being an important
14 component part independent of whether or not it was deemed to be a legal
15 obligation in terms of making sure there was not a flow of arms and
16 weapons? By that I'm referring to a reporting requirement.
17 A. [Overlapping speakers]... As a practical consideration, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. And if we could go to the last paragraph in that
19 document. It states:
20 "After congress," that's, I'm assuming, the United States
21 Congress -- "passed legislation that would have cut off all money for
22 enforcing the embargo by November 15th, the Administration directed the
23 United States military to stop enforcing the prohibition."
24 Now, is this something that you were made aware of in your
25 capacity as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, that money had been cut
1 off from forcing --
2 A. I was aware of this.
3 Q. Okay. There are two parts here, one is that money was cut off
4 for enforcing the embargo. And the other part is that the United States
5 Administration had directed the military to stop enforcing the embargo.
6 You were aware of both of those things; correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. It goes on to say:
9 "Even that step angered Britain
10 farces are among the United Nations peacekeepers in Bosnia and who have
11 warned that any new flow of arms to either side in the war will only make
12 future battles more violent."
13 Now, were you privy to at the United Nations, either in the
14 hallways informally or formally at the General Assembly or the
15 Security Council, this aspect of the debate, which is that the
16 United States had made a determination that it was no longer going to, at
17 least surreptitiously, support the flow of arms into your country, but
18 rather was going to openly take the position that it was not going to
19 enforce the embargo, and Britain
20 were of a different mind?
21 A. I think the debate ranged from the paragraph that you just read
22 to the last paragraph in this article, which stresses, of course, the
23 still vast imbalance in the military weight of, if you would, the
25 Q. I see.
1 A. And I think in that context, that was a constant point of debate
2 and discussion.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. Could I have that marked as
4 Defendant's next in order.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
6 given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes Exhibit
8 D154. Thank you.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have 1D0 -- 1D00-4539 up on the
10 screen, which would be tab 93, Mr. Registrar, in your new binder.
11 Q. I don't know if you had a chance to -- to look at the document.
13 I'd like to, after you've had a chance to take a look at the
14 first page, and for purposes of --
15 A. I believe this is an UNPROFOR -- of 2 July 1995.
16 Q. That's correct.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: And for purposes of clarification, so that the
18 Chamber is aware, a certain part of this document is already in evidence
19 as Defendant's 24.
20 Q. What I'd like you to do is take a look at page 1, if you would
21 initially, and going to -- I apologise, Mr. Registrar. And looking at
22 the -- go down to the 1, 2, 3, the fourth bullet point, it says:
23 "UNPROFOR relations with the Bosnian government are
24 deteriorating; freedom of movement is restricted."
25 Were you made aware by your president or your military that the
1 Bosnian army, and by that I mean the BiH Army was restricting the freedom
2 of movement of UNPROFOR during this time.
3 A. No, in fact, I was present on several situations where UNPROFOR
4 and the Bosnian government and military had to share the same roads. The
5 roads that were to be secured through Serbian control areas in fact were
6 no longer made available to UNPROFOR. So UNPROFOR in fact would use the
7 road, the only connection that the Bosnian government maintained, which
8 was over Mount Igman
9 Q. Okay. If we could turn to page 4, please, which discusses this
10 particular bullet point. If we could go to the section that starts
11 off -- it's in the bottom part of the page, Mr. Registrar.
12 It says: "UNPROFOR relations" --
13 A. Page 4?
14 Q. Yes. If we could scroll down.
15 It says:
16 "UNPROFOR relations with the Bosnian government deteriorating.
17 UNPROFOR's relations with the Bosnian government seems to be getting
18 worse. The Bosnians claim that UNPROFOR is doing nothing to help Bosnia
19 or to implement its mandate; that UNPROFOR is trying to ensure that the
20 Reserve Force is ineffectual; and that UNPROFOR is doing nothing to
21 retrieve the large amount of (principally French) military equipment
22 still held by the Serbs, and being used by the Serbs to attack the
23 Bosnians. The situation seems to have got worse following a number of
24 statements from senior Bosnian politicians." The first one being on
25 Monday June 26th. Attributed to Prime Minister Silajdzic, stating:
1 "The United Nations organisation is an accomplice in this
2 genocide against Bosnia
4 The next on the 27th of June, Foreign Minister Sacirbegovic,
5 which I believe is you, sir, stated that:
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. UNPROFOR's presence is no longer in the interests of Bosnia
8 civilians or government, but the interests of certain western powers. We
9 do have a choice, which is clearly to tell the international community
10 that we no longer consent to the presence of UNPROFOR in our country.
11 Is that a statement that you made, sir?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And is that a statement that you made with relation to -- I'm
14 using the term broadly for the moment -- with relation to your
15 displeasure in the manner in which UNPROFOR was following its mandate?
16 A. I think at this point in time we are not talking about pleasure,
17 approval or disapproval, as much as we are talking about the fact that
18 UNPROFOR was in effect powerless to address its most -- the most
19 important elements of its mandate. In fact was sharing resources with
20 the Bosnian government, everything from roads to even things like food
21 and medicine. And obviously at that point in time had become in effect a
22 third consideration in the conflict. What I mean by that is that when
23 issues were to be considered in terms of more effective measures to bring
24 about an end to the conflict or to confront those who might be besieging
1 primary concern and one to which frequently the population of Bosnia
3 Q. Well --
4 A. So in this sense --
5 Q. Excuse me. So let me ask you a question based upon what you've
6 just said --
7 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
9 MS. BOLTON: My friend cut off the witness. He was answering the
10 question responsively, I think, and he hadn't finished. And I think he
11 ought to be given the opportunity to finish.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine. Fine.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do want to finish up, Mr. Sacirbey.
14 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Just to be very brief, I think the point was, is that the UN
16 forces, themselves, had in fact become threatened. And in defending
17 themselves, particularly against the Serbian forces, it was the
18 considerations of their security that sometimes took primacy over their
19 mandate in defending the civilian population or even providing adequate
20 humanitarian assistance to the civilian population. So in this way, when
21 we addressed what means might be necessary to bring about peace, to bring
22 about an end to the conflict, too frequently the issue was, Well, what
23 are the consequences for the UN personnel on the ground? Would there in
24 fact be reprisals, and should those reprisals be considered in setting
25 forth strategy in the implementation of UN mandates?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH:
2 Q. Thank you for that answer, Mr. Sacirbey. Please do correct me if
3 I'm wrong; with regard to the first person who died in Srebrenica, that
4 was an UNPROFOR soldier who was killed by a member of the BiH Army.
6 A. I am aware that in fact a Dutch soldier was killed, and it seems
7 that it was a Bosnian army or a Bosnian individual. But in fact, as I
8 understand it, the investigation was never concluded, since Srebrenica
9 fell before such investigation could be concluded.
10 Q. I see. As a matter of fact, you know it was the BiH army, and
11 you engaged in diplomatic intervention with the Dutch foreign ministry
12 and the Dutch Department of Defence over this particular issue, including
13 attending the funeral of this young soldier; correct?
14 A. I did not attend the funeral unfortunately, and I would have. I
15 would like to pay respect to all those who came to Bosnia whatever the
16 results of their actions may have been. But nonetheless, I did in fact
17 certainly engage with the Dutch government and did provide my
18 condolences. And did in fact even provide whatever consideration may
19 have been appropriate at the time in view of the possibility that such
20 Dutch soldier may have been killed by those defenders of Srebrenica.
21 Q. With regard to a question I'd asked you earlier, you had
22 indicated that you were not aware of a June offensive in 1994. You most
23 assuredly are aware of a June offensive in 1995, are you not? And by a
24 June offensive I mean a June offensive by the Bosnia-Herzegovina army.
25 A. Yes, I am. If you would like to be more specific around which
1 town, and I believe you are speaking of Sarajevo here.
2 Q. Well, I'm starting with --
3 A. There was certainly an effort to -- the siege of Sarajevo, and
4 that's correct.
5 Q. With regard to Sarajevo
6 that the Bosnian army placed their mortars wherever they wanted,
7 including close to the Kosevo hospital and the PTT building?
8 A. That I'm unaware of.
9 Q. I see. Were you aware of the view that had been espoused by some
10 individuals in UNPROFOR that a gentleman by the name of Muratovic -- do
11 you know who he is? Morotovic or Muratovic?
12 A. If you are speaking of Mr. Hasan Muratovic.
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yes, I am aware of who he is.
15 Q. Could you identify him, please. Who is he?
16 A. At that time he was the minister in the government of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina responsible for United Nations affairs.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That is dealing with the UN forces on the ground.
20 Q. Are you aware of the fact that there was a concern at that time,
21 that this gentleman and the Bosnia-Herzegovina army were attempting to
22 force UNPROFOR into a situation where the daily use of the road from
23 Mount Igman
24 A. I'm not aware of such an effort, no. In fact --
25 Q. Was that a --
1 A. We were quite troubled by the fact --
2 Q. If you are not aware of it, you are not aware of it.
3 A. May I answer, or would you -- no, but I -- you are speaking of
4 the Mount Igman
5 in fact the road was constantly under used during the evening which is
6 considered the safest time to travel. And in fact the UN forces then
7 only felt safe to travel at night. And clearly there were numerous times
8 when the road in fact was not useable by all the traffic that in fact
9 wanted to use it, including Bosnian, military, and/or government traffic.
10 Q. When you say that the UN forces then only felt safe to travel at
11 night, as a matter of fact there were a variety of agreements that were
12 put forth with regard to the use of that particular road. And by virtue
13 of the fact we received this information in closed session, I'm going to
14 ask you whether or not you are aware of the fact there being an agreement
15 between members of UNPROFOR and the BiH army with regard to the use of
16 this road?
17 A. I'm having trouble understanding, I think, the key word in your
18 question. Could you please repeat it.
19 Q. The key word being agreement.
20 A. No, there was -- can you just repeat the question. [Overlapping
21 speakers] ... sometimes you say in the microphone.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I mention --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap. The
24 interpreters are unable to follow.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Previous translation continues]... can't go any
1 further than that.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters are complaining. They are saying
3 you are overlapping, and they can't follow you, number one.
4 Number two, maybe it might help at this stage just to ask -- at
5 this stage perhaps it might be helpful just to caution both counsel and
6 witness to be brief in both their questions and answers. It's very
7 difficult to follow what you gentlemen are talking about, and there is
8 quite often a straying off either from the question or from the answer.
9 If you could ask very pointed questions and give very pointed answers, we
10 might perhaps make better progress.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. Were you aware of there being an agreement between UNPROFOR and
13 the BiH army for the use of Mount Igman
14 A. I was aware of some agreement, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Returning to the document that we were referring to
16 before. Continuing:
17 "In a letter to the Security Council dated Wednesday, 28 June, he
18 implied that consent might be withdrawn if UNPROFOR and the reserve
19 force, did not become more" -- and I'm sorry, I can't read the word.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: More vigorous.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, very much, Your Honour.
22 Q. "... vigorous in the Prosecution of the UN mandate."
23 Is that a position that you took?
24 A. Yes, I think that's a fair view.
25 Q. And on the 29th of June, the gentleman who you previously
1 identified, Mr. Muratovic stated:
2 "The Bosnian government wanted," and it says, "more dealings with
3 SRSG Akashi, 'who is dead for us.'"
4 I take it that there is a word missing here. It should be "no
5 more dealings." If we could go back a page.
6 A. I can actually see that word in my draft.
7 Q. Okay, very good. Excellent.
8 And on Friday the 30th of June, going back to the next page:
9 "... the mayor of Sarajevo
10 if it did nothing to help the city."
11 Is this something that you were aware of, that the mayor of
14 A. No, I was not aware at this point.
15 Q. It goes on to say UNPROFOR's freedom of movement is blocked. Not
16 so much in the city itself, as on the routes in Sector South west that
17 lead to Igman road. This has the effect of delaying convoys over
18 Mount Igman
19 UNPROFOR no longer has access to hospitals, or to other locations of
20 special interest."
21 In your capacity as ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina, whilst you
22 were at the United Nations, were you made aware of the fact that
23 UNPROFOR's access had been restricted and blocked as mentioned in this
25 A. No, in fact I was foreign minister at the time. And second of
1 all, as you can see by the letter, it doesn't speak who it's blocked by.
2 And I would several times witness when I was travelling in and out of
4 over both my personal traffic, that is government traffic, as well as in
5 fact Bosnian military traffic.
6 Q. First of all, I would move the admission of pages 4 and 5.
7 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, reference was also made to the first page,
8 and it seems --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's already been admitted.
10 MS. BOLTON: Shouldn't we do what we did with the previous
11 exhibits then, and make the whole thing one exhibit?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. If that works better, let's do that.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what exhibit number was the --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was D24.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, Mr. Registrar, would you make pages 4 and 5
16 part of Exhibit D24.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, pages 4 and 5 become part of
18 Exhibit D24.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, could Mr. Registrar --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've just been alerted to something, which is
22 page 1, apparently, is not in; it's only page 3. So I think it would be
23 appropriate as well as Ms. Bolton
24 have the document identified.
25 MS. BOLTON: That leaves out only page 2. I'd ask that it be
1 included as well so the whole context of the document is before the
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's fine by me.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. Go ahead.
5 Go ahead, Mr. Registrar. Admit the entire document as
6 Exhibit 24.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. The entire document is
8 admitted as Exhibit D24. Thank you.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. I want to go back for just a brief moment to the answer you just
11 gave, with regard to your assertion that it does not say who it's blocked
12 by. With regard to the sentence "inside the city, UNPROFOR no longer has
13 access to hospitals or to other locations of special interest," you are
14 not contending, are you, that at that time there were Bosnian Serb forces
15 inside of Sarajevo
16 A. Frankly, I am not aware why in fact access was not being given to
17 hospitals, nor am I contending, as you put it, that Bosnian Serbs were
18 blocking, no.
19 Q. As a matter of fact, that part of Sarajevo was under the control
20 of the Bosnian army, was it not? By that part of Sarajevo I'm referring
21 to that area where there were hospitals.
22 A. Yes, I believe so.
23 Q. And the Bosnian army that I'm referring to is the BiH army, just
24 so we are clear, in that regard.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'd like to turn your attention now to a number
3 of reports, and if you could go to tab 85. I'm sorry, yes, tab 85, which
4 is 65 ter 6615. This is a report of the Secretary-General dated 26
5 March, 1993
6 Q. And I'd like for you to take a look at it, and then I have really
7 but a few questions with regard to this report, and the ensuing reports.
8 Mr. Sacirbey, let me ask you the following as you are reviewing
9 the report, just to interrupt you for a brief second not because I wish
10 to break your train of thought, but rather this report is a report that
11 was produced during a period of time that you were the ambassador for
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And this is a report, as I understand it, was made for general
15 distribution; true?
16 A. I believe it was. I am looking for the key words, but would I
17 suspect it --
18 Q. I'm looking at the front page --
19 A. I would suspect it was.
20 Q. Looking at the front page and under distribution it says
22 A. Okay. Yes.
23 Q. This is a report that you had occasion to read at the time, I'm
24 sure, no?
25 A. To be very honest with you, I was so involved in most of these
1 negotiations that perhaps some of this seems almost second-hand compared
2 to reading it in a report. So I cannot distinguish whether I reviewed it
3 or of course I'm aware of the fact.
4 Q. With regard to the information that's contained within this
5 report, that was distributed generally, you are aware of the information
6 that's contained therein? And I'm not asking you to rush through it.
7 I'm not asking you to rush through it, but that will be my question.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Registrar, you can scroll down, let's see what
9 is written.
10 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I'm trying to review it. It's
11 a little difficult for me to conclude that everything here is something
12 that I have either reviewed or seen in the past. But generally, I'm now,
13 frankly, just scanning it, rather than reviewing it carefully. Yes, it
14 seems to be something I'm familiar with.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. As a matter of fact, when these reports came in and they were
17 distributed generally, one of the things that you did in your capacity as
18 representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina is you reviewed the information
19 that was contained in these reports to make a determination as to whether
20 or not in your view they were accurate or inaccurate, whether they need
21 today be enhanced, or edited, or modified; correct?
22 A. Either I personally would do that or members of my staff.
23 Q. And with regard to whether or not you would do it personally, or
24 members of your staff would do it, ultimately the information would be
25 prepared for you. You would be briefed on this matter?
1 A. Yes, I may be. That's correct.
2 Q. When you say you may be, is that a possible "may," or are you
3 using the "may" the way you used it previously, as a term of art?
4 A. No, in this instance -- in the instance as it refers to this
5 report, as I said, I was so involved in negotiations, I'm not necessarily
6 familiar with -- let me rephrase that. I just cannot remember if I
7 reviewed this report at the time. As I said, I was so involved in
9 Most of the facts here, most of the discussions here seem very
11 Q. Very well.
12 A. That's the best that I can say.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this as Defendant's next in order,
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's admitted. May it please be given an
16 exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit D155.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Moving to the next tab in the binder which is tab
21 86, which is -- I'm not going to be able to complete it in the period of
22 time that we have left before the break.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you suggesting that is convenient moment?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
1 Court adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour, with the Chamber's indulgence,
6 Mr. Harmon has come down, there is a procedural matter that needs
7 attending to, and I've been asked if I could truncate my examination for
8 a moment so that the matter could be addressed. I don't think it will
9 take terribly long, but it's a matter of some importance with regard to
10 future scheduling. So I would defer at this time to Mr. Lukic and
11 Mr. Harmon, if the Chamber is agreeable.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, I have had a conversation -- first
14 of all, good afternoon, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, Mr. Harmon.
16 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, counsel.
17 This afternoon prior to coming into court I was contacted by
18 Mr. Lukic and Mr. Guy-Smith. This morning we produced to the Defence a
19 proofing note, an information report that was the result of a prolonged
20 conversation that we had with the next witness whose name I will not
21 identify at this point because I don't know what protective measures may
22 or may not be imposed, but nevertheless, we were able only to review that
23 proofing note with the witness yesterday. And once it was reviewed and
24 there were corrections made to it, we disclosed it to the Defence.
25 The concern expressed to me by the Defence was it contained a
1 number of new elements that weren't previously -- previously identified
2 in a previous statement. That is correct. I accept that. There's also
3 overlap between what was in the previous statement and what is in this
4 statement. The result of which was the Defence proposed to me that we
5 defer the testimony of this witness until after the break. My
6 proposal --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: After which break?
8 MR. HARMON: After the summer break. After the summer recess.
9 My proposal is as follows, Your Honour: The witness is due to commence
10 his evidence on Thursday. My proposal is that he would start his
11 evidence on Monday. That would permit the Defence a number of extra days
12 to prepare the cross-examination. I would commence my direct examination
13 of the witness on Monday. I anticipate it would take approximately two
14 days, possibly more but not much more than two days if things go as I
16 The Defence would then be in a position to cross-examine on the
17 materials that they have received for which -- that is not new because
18 they had information about elements that they've had for a considerable
19 period of time. I've disclosed to the Defence a number of exhibits,
20 potential exhibits. I think at this point it's 55 exhibits. Fifty-one
21 of which are already P exhibits in this case. So there are no surprises
22 in terms of the exhibits themselves. My suggestion would be that the
23 cross-examination then commence. To the extent that the Defence feels it
24 cannot proceed because of the new information and its requirement that it
25 needs additional time, an adjournment can then be sought. And I have
1 checked with the witness, the witness would be in a position to return
2 after the summer recess.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, without being on either side, would you
4 in your response take into account that the suggestion by Mr. Harmon
5 would possibly enable us to finish with Mr. Sacirbey this week? Just
6 bear that in mind as you configure your argument. I'm sure everybody
7 would like to finish with Mr. Sacirbey at this stage. Not that we don't
8 like you, Mr. Sacirbey, we love to have you here, but still you must be
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I simply had to wait for the
11 interpretation, and only now I realise the delay takes into the
12 interpretation and actually how much trouble I am for the interpreters.
13 I believe that we can stay in an open session. All of us in the
14 courtroom know which witness we are talking about. This is the gist of
15 the problem. Today at noon
16 the interview with this witness. This document is 20 pages long in B/C/S
17 and 19 pages in the English version. So it's a rather lengthy document.
18 This is my concern: The proofing notes concerning this interview
19 have to do with an interview that Mr. Harmon made with this witness
20 during the four last days of April of this year, so on the 27th, 28th,
21 29th, and 30th of April. And the proofing note was compiled on the
22 1st of May. This is what it stated here.
23 I can see here that the witness signed this note in the language
24 that he understands yesterday. However, we only received this very
25 significant proofing note concerning this very significant witness today,
1 and I believe that we simply did not have time enough to get prepared,
2 because this is a very significant witness. The testimony that will go
3 into the very core of this -- this particular case. And I would really
4 not like to have to interrupt my cross-examination of this witness
5 because I will simply not be able to start with one concept of
6 cross-examination and then to have to change. And given that I received
7 this material only today at noon
8 of getting prepared by Monday of next week.
9 So this is a very fundamental issue that has to do with
10 Article 21 of the statute. And I will tell you very briefly what my
11 proposal would be. Given that this is one of the key witnesses of this
12 particular trial, also in light of the fact that there is a great number
13 of new facts that the witness will testify on, I agree with Mr. Harmon
14 that the documents that were available to us, but it is not the documents
15 that are problematic here, but rather the attitude of this witness
16 towards these documents as results from the proofing note.
17 My proposal would be either not to start with this witness giving
18 testimony here before the end of the summer recess, or for Mr. Harmon to
19 have his examination-in-chief next week and then for my cross-examination
20 to start after the summer break. Because these few days are simply
21 insufficient for me to make all the checks that I believe I need to make
22 to prepare for my cross-examination. So really it's been two and a half
23 months since the interview with this witness, and I only received the
24 proofing note today, so I believe that this is in contravention of
25 Article 21, and it simply doesn't allow me enough space.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have told us that the witness only signed
2 yesterday. They couldn't give you a proofing note that is not signed, I
3 would imagine. What made it be signed only yesterday and not when it was
4 drafted, that's another matter we don't know.
5 Now, if I may suggest, Mr. Harmon, you said you would need two to
6 three days to lead your evidence in chief with this witness. That would
7 mean if we accommodate Mr. Lukic and not -- and he does not start with
8 his cross-examination, we would lose three days of next week. Given what
9 he is saying, is that fatal? I mean, can't we accommodate him? You lead
10 your witness next week and take your time. If you take three days, it's
11 three days, and then we break off and then he starts his
12 cross-examination after the recess.
13 MR. HARMON: Of course it's not fatal, Your Honour. I was
14 thinking in terms of judicial economy in the sense that there are a large
15 number of subjects about which this witness would testify. In my
16 respectful submission, the cross-examination could commence on those
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I understand that. But, you know, Mr. Lukic
19 has said what he has said about starting cross-examination next week,
20 it's not about the document; it's about the attitude of the witness.
21 Whatever the attitude is, I don't know. And he is raising a more
22 important point which when balanced against judicial economy, it seems to
23 weigh heavier, namely the rights of the accused, at least in my view.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I am at your disposal on this issue.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we quickly then agree that the
1 Prosecution will lead evidence, and then you [indiscernible] on this
2 witness, and we'll break off and the cross-examination will start in the
3 new term. Okay. So be it ordered.
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have one request, however, in respect
5 of the Court's now -- its decision. May the testimony of the witness
6 commence on Monday the 24th of August for the following reason: I will
7 be not available on the first day of the return.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are getting a larger slice of the recess?
9 MR. HARMON: I am getting a larger slice of the recess by one
10 day. And I will not be available, I'll be in transit back to The Hague
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: We recess -- we are supposed to start on the 17th
12 of August, aren't we?
13 MR. HARMON: Okay. 17th would be fine then, Your Honour. I am
14 sorry. Let me check with Mr. Thomas. I believe we have a witness who is
15 scheduled on the 17th and the 18th. We have potential witnesses for the
16 remaining --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Days of that week.
18 MR. HARMON: -- days of that week. We are still working on the
19 scheduling of those witnesses, but we have allotted some time to those
20 witnesses so that following week would be ...
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And you say you are available from the
23 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, I am available for the 24th for
24 the testimony of that witness. I am available earlier, but I believe
25 there is -- if I can have just a moment.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, in consultation with Mr. Thomas, it
3 appears that the witnesses starting on the 19th are not firmly scheduled,
4 so we could start with this witness on the 19th, if the Court --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you be back?
6 MR. HARMON: I will be back, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We will not say anything about when he will
8 start at this point. We will hear from you. If it's the 19th, it will
9 be the 19th. If you schedule other witnesses 19th, 20, 21st, you will do
10 so, and you can start on the 24th. But all we'll say for now is that we
11 agree that his cross-examination begins after recess.
12 MR. HARMON: Fine.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that okay?
14 MR. HARMON: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you very much. May
15 I be excused, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Mr. Harmon.
17 Mr. Sacirbey, sorry for that. We had to do this also in the
18 interest of getting you finished with your testimony.
19 MR. THOMAS: Excuse me, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
21 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. Before my learned friend begins, I
22 didn't want to interrupt our proceedings. At about half an hour or so, I
23 will be needed elsewhere. I will be replaced in the courtroom by
24 Mr. Saxon. I was wondering if I could just be excused at that point
25 without further reference to Your Honours, and for Mr. Saxon to come in.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You just want to sneak out, okay.
2 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 If we could have 6090 up on the screen. That would be tab 86 in
6 the binder.
7 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have that.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH:
9 Q. No, I believe you have tab 85. I'm -- sorry, you have tab 86.
10 It's coming up on the screen.
11 This document is once again a document that was distributed
12 generally; correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And I'd like to go to the second page of the document. This
15 document is dated -- no, no.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry, 1D03. I do apologise, Mr. Registrar. My
18 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Okay.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 1D03 before the 6090?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour.
21 Q. This is a document dated the 25th of June, 1995. And it's a
22 report by the co-chairman of the steering committee of the international
23 conference on the former Yugoslavia
24 page of the document, page 2, paragraph number 3. And with regard to the
25 language contained therein, it's the very last sentence on this page,
1 which is:
2 "The co-chairmen also conclude that during the period covered by
3 the present report there have been no commercial trans-shipments across
4 the border between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Moving to page 4 of this report, paragraph 10 indicates:
9 "The Mission continues to enjoy full freedom of movement within
10 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." Correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Moving to paragraph 16 on page 5, with regard to the cooperation
13 from the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, they continue
14 to be good; correct?
15 A. I see that as well.
16 Q. Thereafter at paragraph 19, there is a discussion about smuggling
17 of fuel and the interdiction of such smuggling effort -- of such
18 smuggling; correct? It goes on from --
19 A. Yes, I see that.
20 Q. 19, 20, 21, 22, and there's a continuing discussion with regard
21 to customs officials interdicting black-market officials; right?
22 A. I see that.
23 Q. I take it this is a document that you received in your capacity
24 as ambassador to Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you not?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have this marked as --
3 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] As foreign minister at the time.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can I have this marked as Defendant's next in
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit D156.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If you could turn to the next tab in your binder,
11 sir, which is tab number 87, which would be 1D03-6082.
12 Q. This is a letter dated 19 September, 1994, the distribution is
13 once again, as I understand it, general. Correct?
14 A. I see that.
15 Q. Okay. If I could refer to you page 3 specifically. In which the
16 report states:
17 "Closure by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of its border with
18 the Bosnian Serbs..."
19 A. I see that.
20 Q. This indicates that on the 4th of August, the following measures
21 were ordered by the government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
22 come in effect the same day; correct?
23 A. Yes, I see that.
24 Q. And it lists three specific measures that are to come into
25 effect; true?
1 A. Yes, I see that.
2 Q. To break off political and economic relations with
3 Republika Srpska, to prohibit the stay of members of the leadership of
4 Republika Srpska in the territory of FRY
5 the FRY is closed for all transport towards Republika Srpska except food,
6 clothing, and medicine; correct?
7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 Q. If you could turn to page 6 of the same document, sir.
9 With regard to the Mission
10 attention to paragraph 19 with regard to the Mission concept, there's an
12 "The Mission will exercise its right to go wherever it wishes
13 without any form of prior notification to follow the work of customs
14 officers of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro
15 and to actually look into vehicles crossing the border." Correct?
16 A. Yes, I see that again.
17 Q. This is a document, this is actually a letter that you also
18 received in your capacity as ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. Could I have that marked as
22 Defendant's next in order.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
24 exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
1 Exhibit D157. Thank you.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If you could turn to the next tab in your binder,
3 that would be tab number 88, which is 1D03-6050.
4 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I have that.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH:
6 Q. Once again this is a general distribution; correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And this is the discussion of UNPROFOR; true?
9 A. Yes. It seems at least in part. I haven't reviewed the whole
11 Q. Okay. Well, if you'd like to take a moment to look at it, that
12 will be fine.
13 A. Yes, at least that seems to be the lion's share of the
15 Q. I'd like you to turn to paragraph 30, if you could, which is on
16 page 10 of the hard copy, and I'll tell --
17 A. I have that in front of me.
18 Q. Okay. And with regard to the issue of safe areas, if you go
19 about halfway in the paragraph, this was something that we had been
20 discussing, I believe, the other day, which specific day, to be perfectly
21 honest with you, Mr. Sacirbey, I don't remember, but we discussed the
22 issue of the use of safe areas. And the report indicates:
23 "The army of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina
24 used the safe areas as locations in which its troops can rest, train, and
25 equip themselves as well as fire at Serb positions, thereby provoking
1 Serb retaliation."
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading in paragraph 30?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: If you go about halfway down the paragraph,
4 Your Honour. It starts with --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am with you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. It goes on to say:
8 "If the concept is to be sustained, the term "safe area" requires
9 re-definition, as suggested in the Secretary-General's report of 11 March
10 1994, which discussions the feasibility of extending the concept to three
11 additional towns identified by Security Council. Such re-definition
12 would require full demilitarisation by both sides on agreed conditions,
13 assured freedom of movement, the impounding or withdrawal of heavy
14 weapons and extensive UNPROFOR deployment."
16 A. Yes, I see that.
17 Q. With regard to the issue of sniping in paragraph 31, if you go
18 down 1, 2, 3, 4 lines, and I should say heavy shelling and sniping, the
19 report indicates:
20 "... some of it provoked by offensive actions undertaken by
21 forces of the army of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
23 A. Yes, I see that.
24 Q. If we could move to paragraph 34A, which I believe you'll find on
25 hard copy page 12. It states:
1 "Several of the newer tasks have placed UNPROFOR in a position of
2 thwarting the military objectives of one party, and therefore
3 compromising its impartiality which remains the key to its effectiveness
4 in fulfilling its humanitarian responsibilities." Does it not?
5 A. Yes, I see that.
6 Q. With regard to this particular paragraph which is thwarting the
7 military objectives of one party and compromising its impartiality, is
8 that a matter that was discussed both formally and informally at the
9 United Nations both in the Security Council as well as the
10 General Assembly, that there were concerns about UNPROFOR's impartiality
11 or the perception of its impartiality?
12 A. Yes, in the context of the mandate given, and I would assess here
13 that the mandate certainly was broader than at quote/unquote humanitarian
15 Q. I understand your response. My concern is the issue of whether
16 or not there was a perception and a concern that UNPROFOR's impartiality
17 would be called into question as a result of its activities which was a
18 matter of discussion at the United Nations?
19 A. Yes, I think I answered that question.
20 Q. And your answer is yes, as I understand it.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
23 Could I have that marked as Defendant's next in order.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So marked. May it please be given an exhibit
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
2 Exhibit D158. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could now have you take a brief look at the
5 next tab in the binder, which is -- I believe it's tab number 89. And
6 that would be 1D03-6040.
7 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] March 11, 1994?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH:
9 Q. That's correct.
10 A. I have that in front of me.
11 Q. Excellent. This is a document, once again, that was for general
12 distribution; correct?
13 A. Yes, I see that.
14 Q. And is this a document that you had occasion to review in your
15 capacity as the ambassador for Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. I believe I did, yes.
17 Q. With regard to this document, once again, if you could take a
18 look at paragraph 17 in this document, which I believe you'll find on
19 page 5.
20 A. I see the paragraph.
21 Q. This paragraph indicates a number of things, but not only that
22 the living conditions in the safe areas remain appalling, they suffer
23 from high levels of unemployment, overcrowding, crime, and prostitution,
24 but once again there is the statement that the Army of Bosnia and
1 rest, train, and equip themselves; right?
2 A. I see that.
3 Q. And that was the -- that was the -- if you recall, those were the
4 prophetic remarks that were made by Wahlgren some time before that it was
5 important that the safe areas be demilitarised?
6 A. I believe we are speaking of something from two weeks earlier.
7 Q. Yes, it could well have been two weeks ago.
8 A. Yeah. I recall your point on that.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. Could I have that marked as Defendant's
10 next in order.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Its admitted into evidence. May it please be
12 given an exhibit number.
13 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour, just so I'm clear, the questioning in
14 the last few documents has been basically that my friend reads a portion
15 and then he confirms that that is in fact what the document says. Just
16 want it to be clear that the witness isn't being asked, I take it, to
17 agree with the contents; he is just being asked to confirm that my friend
18 has correctly read the paragraph, is that right?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you want to add on the questions that have
20 already been put to the witness, ma'am? Now you are asking something
21 that has not been asked.
22 MS. BOLTON: I'm trying to clarify whether -- my friend asked a
23 question, and he usually ends it by saying "correct." I'm not clear if
24 he is asking the witness to confirm that he has properly read or
25 summarised the paragraph, or if when he says correct, the answer -- when
1 he says yes is supposed to mean that he is agreeing with the contents. I
2 guess I'm a little confused on --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, I hear you now.
4 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the question -- with regard to the
6 question or the concern put by Ms. Bolton, first of all, you agree that I
7 properly read the documents; right?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, you can't now begin to question
9 Madam Bolton. Make your point.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not questioning Ms. Bolton. I'm taking into
11 account what she said, there are two points there. One is, do you agree
12 that I properly read the documents. I am taking care of both of the
13 issues she's raised.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you asking Mr. Sacirbey?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yeah. That's what her concern was.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... No, no. I think the
17 correct answer, Mr. Guy-Smith, is not to answer Madam Bolton by asking
18 the witness questions. Your correct answer is to tell her what you are
19 doing. She wants to know are you asking the witness whether you have
20 correctly quoted. Does he agree that that is what is written, or does he
21 agree with the content? I think you should tell her --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not in the habit of telling Ms. Bolton that
23 which I think is plainly evident. If she doesn't understand the
24 question, then she can clean it up. But in this position I'm happy to --
25 I'm happy to work with Ms. Bolton and the Court.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand you. Okay. Your learned
2 friend is not going to explain to you what he is doing.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: What I'm going to do, what my intention had been
4 was to deal with both parts of her concern. One is whether or not the
5 information that I read to him was accurately contained in those reports.
6 And secondly, whether or not he agreed with the information that was
7 contained. Because she had asked both of those questions, so I was
8 trying to work with her, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely.
11 Q. Do you have my question in mind?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
13 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, to your previous questions, I
14 answered, I see that, which of course reflects that I have understood the
15 previous questions to be whether or not I in fact understand your reading
16 of those particular phrases or paragraphs to be accurate. Of course that
17 reading is neither complete nor do I necessarily agree with it.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. And when you say you don't necessarily agree with it, is
20 it fair to say that with regard to the documents that we have just been
21 through, and by those I am referring to those documents which now have
22 been given Exhibit numbers starting with -- and I'm trying to get the
23 exhibit numbers so we are clear about it. So the record is clear here.
24 I'll give you that -- starting with Exhibit D155. So it would be 155,
25 156, 157, 158, and 159, that the information that is contained in those
1 exhibits is, one, information that was, you've told us, discussed both in
2 the Security Council and in the General Assembly; correct?
3 A. I believe that contains a lot of information, and certainly some
4 of it has been discussed. I'm not sure it's fair enough to say that all
5 of it was discussed or discussed in the same context.
6 Q. All of it was made privy, as you've told us, through general
7 distribution to the various participants and member states, either at the
8 General Assembly or the Security Council; right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Okay. And with regard to the accuracy or the validity of some of
11 that information, you take issue with some of that information, if I
12 understand your testimony.
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Okay, thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, the record does not show that
16 ID03-6040 was given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document becomes Exhibit D159.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
21 Q. With regard to the issue of diplomacy and -- [technical
22 difficulties]... With regard to the issue of diplomacy, you have stated
23 that diplomacy provides wide latitude in the manipulation of words, have
24 you not?
25 A. I am not sure I've stated that I actually do agree with that
2 Q. Okay. I'm going to read something to you so we can do this
3 quickly. I'm referring -- going to read something to you which is from a
4 speech that you gave on 4th of June, 1993, and see if that refreshes your
5 recollection as to having made the statement. Ninety-two. Which is:
6 "There is another new term in the special dictionary for
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, joint action programme. One word in that phrase is
8 especially misleading, action. Diplomacy provides wide latitude in the
9 manipulation of words. But we all know that the objective that has
10 motivated this programme is avoidance."
11 Could you hear me there? You may not have been because I'm
12 having to go --
13 A. Yes, I could.
14 Q. Do you recall making such a statement?
15 A. Yes, I do. At least in the general context. But, yes, I do.
16 Q. Well, as a matter of fact, that's what I want to deal with. I
17 want to deal with the manipulation of words in a general context with you
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could have please 1D03-2229 on the screen.
20 That would be found in tab number 78, Mr. Registrar. And this is an ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yes, I have this document in front
22 of me. Article December 17th, 1995, "New York Times."
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. It's an editorial; correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And this is an editorial that as a matter of fact as you have
2 said, Your finger-prints are all over it; right? That's something you
3 told to Mr. Nice, that this is an editorial that you had cause to have
4 put into the "New York Times" because of your concerns about Mr. Bildt?
5 A. If you are suggesting that I had influence on the views expressed
6 here, that is correct.
7 Q. Well, I use very specific language, which is that you had your
8 finger-prints all over it. When you say you had influence on the views
9 that are expressed here, are you telling the Chamber that you influenced
10 this particular "New York Times" editorial piece?
11 A. I believe I may have.
12 Q. Well, once again, when you say you may have, I guess what you are
13 telling us is that you did; right?
14 A. I did not have a direct conversation with the writer of this
15 editorial. So I cannot be a hundred per cent sure.
16 Q. Well, I understand that. But you, as a matter of fact, had a
17 conversation with Mr. Nice in which you specifically indicated that this
18 editorial was an editorial that you had caused to be put in the "New York
19 Times," and ultimately you had a conversation with Mr. Bildt about this
20 editorial in Strasburg some period of time later; correct?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... Madam Bolton.
22 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Actually, I had a conversation --
23 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I know there is a time delay with New York
24 And I apologise for interrupting. Can my friend just assist me in terms
25 of locating that reference in the materials for Mr. Nice.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's in tape 2A.
2 MS. BOLTON: Do you have a time you can provide to me?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Probably. I suggest you look around 1 hour,
4 26 minutes, more or less.
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. As a matter of fact, this particular editorial went, if I'm not
8 mistaken, through an individual by the name of Mabel?
9 A. I believe she had some influence on it; that's correct.
10 Q. And then to the "New York Times" editorial; right?
11 A. I believe that may in fact be accurate.
12 Q. When you say you believe that may in fact be accurate, as a
13 matter of fact as you sit here right now, you know that's accurate,
14 because you were instrumental in putting this editorial into the "New
15 York Times," weren't you, Mr. Sacirbey?
16 A. Very honestly, Mr. Guy-Smith, I love to take credit for it, but I
17 don't want to be so presumptuous. I only am being conditional to the
18 extent that I cannot tell that you the people who put it into the "New
19 York Times" did it at my behest. But otherwise I'd love to take credit
20 for it.
21 Q. Are you telling us, just so I'm clear, that when you told
22 Mr. Nice that your finger-prints were all over it, that you were not at
23 that time taking credit for this particular editorial?
24 A. I believe I used that term as best as I could to say that I had
25 influence over it, or believed that I had influence over it.
1 Q. Well, you didn't say that, did you? You didn't say, I believe I
2 had influence over it.
3 A. Well, I used the words "my finger-prints are on it," which I
4 think doesn't also correspond to the term that you are using, that I took
5 credit for it - now we are frozen - but as I said, I'd love to take
6 credit for it, I just do not wish to be presumptuous.
7 The screen is frozen right now Guy-Smith. I can hear you still,
8 I believe.
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it's us who are frozen.
11 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] If I may ask, are we frozen to you?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, you are not.
13 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Okay. I'm happy to proceed, I don't
14 really need to --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: You are happy with my frozen face?
16 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] That's correct.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Great.
18 Q. Thereafter, maybe I made a mistake and the meeting was not in
19 Strasburg, but rather in Berlin
20 specifically about this editorial, did he not?
21 A. Actually, the meeting took place in --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
23 MS. BOLTON: I'm just going to object on the basis of relevance
24 of this entire line of questioning. It hasn't been established yet.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: What hasn't been established yet, ma'am? The
2 MS. BOLTON: Any relevance to -- I haven't had a chance yet to
3 read the editorial, but at this point I'm at a loss as to what the
4 relevance is of this entire line of questioning, whether he had influence
5 over putting an editorial in the "New York Times," et cetera.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: This all stems from the issue of his manipulation
8 of words. It goes directly to his credibility and how he manipulates
9 facts and how he manipulates words.
10 MS. BOLTON: I'm still not there yet, but I'll wait and see if my
11 friend develops it along those lines.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. You are saying, Mr. Sacirbey?
14 A. I said the meeting that you are speaking of actually took place
15 in Bonn
16 Q. Okay. And at that meeting in Bonn, Bildt directly asked you
17 whether or not you were involved in or were behind this particular
18 editorial, did he not?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. And you told him that you were not, didn't you?
21 A. I actually -- I actually did not say that. I said -- I suggested
22 he also talk to Ambassador Holbrooke.
23 Q. Well, when you discussed this matter with Mr. Nice, I believe
24 that's at 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 30 seconds, you said:
25 "I said no. Did you think about Holbrooke?"
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Now, when you told that to Mr. Nice, you were telling Mr. Nice
3 the truth with regard to your conversation at least with Mr. Bildt;
5 A. I think I've just repeated that same statement here.
6 Q. Okay. Well, but as a matter of fact, you were involved in this
7 particular editorial, and the reason that you were involved in this
8 particular editorial, is because you were upset about the way Mr. Bildt
9 had handled earlier issues with you; correct?
10 A. Including the betrayal of Srebrenica; that's correct.
11 Q. I understand that. And you, as a matter of fact, made a
12 determination that you would move behind the scenes in an attempt to
13 influence and to manipulate a world opinion through a "New York Times"
14 editorial to the potential detriment of Mr. Bildt, did you not?
15 A. I had no agenda against Mr. Bildt. I had an agenda to find out
16 the truth with respect to Srebrenica, which at that time was, at best,
18 Q. Well, looking at this particular editorial, is the language that
19 is contained in this editorial language which you think achieved that
21 A. First of all, I cannot take credit, even if I might, for the
22 entire editorial, because obviously I did not write it word by word.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: What can you take credit --
24 A. Seconds of all --
25 Q. Go ahead.
1 A. Yes, in fact what we have here. I think a key sentence for which
2 I do believe I am responsible for, which is:
3 "He needs to use that leverage to make sure that Srebrenica
4 massacre and other atrocities like it did not go unpunished."
5 My concern was that in fact the International War Crimes Tribunal
6 would be somehow side-lined and amnesties would be de facto pushed upon
7 the participants. And in fact I think we have seen evidence that there
8 is a possibility that the arrest of war criminals was not always in fact
9 a primary objective of some of the parties involved in implementing the
11 Q. With regard to that, I take it what you are talking about is your
12 allegations concerning a deal between Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic. Is
13 that what you are talking about?
14 MS. BOLTON: Excuse me --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers are kindly
16 asked to pause between questions and answers and not to overlap. Thank
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked not to overlap, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 Yes, Madam Bolton
20 MS. BOLTON: Yes, thank you.
21 In terms of the relevance of this line of questioning, I object,
22 Your Honour, and I would indicate that clearly this is an area that has
23 not even been deemed to be relevant in terms of the actual Trial Chamber
24 that is hearing the Karadzic matter.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, I don't think we have talked about
1 Karadzic here. So far we are talking about Bildt and this witness. Can
2 we stick to --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: The reason I mentioned that is because he said,
4 And there's a possibly the arrest of war criminals was not always in fact
5 a primary objective of some of the parties involved in implementing the
7 response to my question.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not -- I still don't understand how that has
9 to do with Holbrooke and Karadzic. Did you mention Holbrooke?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, because with regard to the editorial there
11 had been a discussion between Mr. Sacirbey and Mr. Bildt, in which
12 Mr. Sacirbey had suggested that Holbrooke was someone who may have been
13 behind the Bildt editorial. So it's a natural flow within the context of
14 what is going on --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... Karadzic is not
16 mentioned in that editorial. We haven't seen the entirety of this
17 editorial. Is Karadzic mentioned there?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: He is not. But, here, what I'm dealing with is
19 I'm dealing with the issue of the ares of war criminals. I'm merely
20 responding to what the gentleman said in his answer.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then you are putting words in his mouth.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm asking him whether that's the case or
24 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, the question my friend asked was
25 is about the arrest of war criminals, and then he went into talking about
1 a deal between Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic, and that had not been
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my point. That's the point -- that's what
4 I'm trying to find out from Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I think it's reasonable to assume from the
6 answer he gave with regard to the priority concerning the arresting of
7 war criminals that the assertion that there was a deal between
8 Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Karadzic concerning an arrest falls necessarily or
9 flows necessarily from his answer. But I don't need to dwell on this
10 issue particularly.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please don't. Thank you.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. With regard to page -- what I have is the second page of this
14 particular editorial, it indicates, if we could go -- scroll down. Going
15 to the second paragraph, it states:
16 "Mr. Bildt, who still serves as Sweden's opposition leader and
17 nourishes political ambitions back home, has surprisingly suggested that
18 he intends to divide his calendar between Sweden and the Balkans. Bosnia
19 is not a part-time job. If Mr. Bildt cannot understand that, someone
20 else should be found who can."
21 Now is that your language, Mr. Sacirbey?
22 A. My input would be much more related to the efforts to infuse
23 justice and also to --
24 Q. Sorry, Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, I'm asking you very specific
25 question, And I'd appreciate an answer to my question.
1 A. That is not my language.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have that marked as Defendant's next in
4 order, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
6 exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D160.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. On March 7th, 1980
12 the 4th District Court of Louisiana
13 A. March when?
14 Q. 7th.
15 A. Of which year?
16 Q. 1980, Mr. Sacirbey.
17 A. If I was arrested for that purpose, it certainly wasn't -- the
18 case never went anywhere, never was even booked as such.
19 Q. That's not my question, sir.
20 A. Well, I really do not -- when I was a student in New Orleans, I
21 found myself being arrested on more than one occasion for things that
22 maybe students would -- [Overlapping speakers]...
23 Q. Excuse me. Mr. Sacirbey, I'm not asking you for all the
24 occasions you were arrested; I'm only asking you about this specific --
25 A. You are asking me for something regarding 27 years earlier or
1 29 years earlier now. So I would appreciate if you would put forth the
2 full facts, if you wish to in some way impugn my credibility or my
4 Q. I'm asking you a simple question about what happened in your
6 A. And I'm answering it what happened in my life. And the way you
7 have characterised it, I do not believe is accurate.
8 Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that in 1980 in Louisiana you were
9 not arrested for gambling in public?
10 A. No, it is my testimony that if that was the case, then the way
11 you have presented was not accurate, because I never was in fact either
12 charged with any such offence or brought before any judge for such
13 offence. Whatever allegation may have been made by any individual or
14 arresting officer, I'm not aware of.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. I have to stop at the moment because I
16 have no LiveNote.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I'm sorry to
19 interrupt, but to get the videolink back, we might have to disconnect and
20 then connect back. Would that be a good moment to do that?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, yeah, you do that, Mr. Registrar, while we
22 try to get LiveNote this side. And just indicate once we are connected.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told they'll have to restart the whole
25 LiveNote. Apparently it's Tribunal-wide, this problem. And it will take
1 them 5 minutes. We'll take a court adjournment, And be called when they
2 are ready. Court adjourned
3 --- Break taken at 5.01 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: One little point, which is housekeeping, before
6 you continue, Mr. Guy-Smith. We talked earlier, and I'm a sorry,
7 Mr. Harmon is not here, about scheduling. It doesn't seem to be quite
8 clear whether we are or are not --
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, are you able to hear
10 us? We are not able it to hear The Hague.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not able to hear? Okay. Can you hear me
12 now? Can you hear me now? Still can't hear me. Can you hear me,
13 Mr. Registrar?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Hello?
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are reconnecting. While they are
17 reconnecting, can we carry on.
18 We didn't clarify whether we are sitting or not sitting tomorrow.
19 The witness for tomorrow we have said is going to come on Monday. Do we
20 have a witness for tomorrow from the Prosecution? It cannot be this
21 witness because we can't switch over to the afternoon session tomorrow
23 MR. SAXON: No, we do not have another witness available
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the net effect then is that we are not sitting
2 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Are we connected now? Can you hear
4 me, Mr. Registrar? Can you hear me, Mr. Registrar?
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We can hear you, Your Honours.
6 Can you hear us?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can hear you very well. Can you hear me? Okay,
8 thank you so much.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we can hear you very well.
10 Can you see us as well?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can you see us as well?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can see you as well, Mr. Registrar. And I can
14 hear you too. Thank you so much.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, maybe just to update you, we were just
17 saying that given the logistics up here, we cannot sit with Mr. Sacirbey
18 tomorrow because we don't have an afternoon session. The only session we
19 could have is in the morning in The Hague which would be night-time
20 there, so when we postpone, we will skip tomorrow for Mr. Sacirbey.
21 Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour? Your Honour, if I may.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Apparently the witness who was
1 scheduled for tomorrow will not be in a position to testify until Monday.
2 So we are not sure that by tonight, Mr. Sacirbey's testimony will be
3 completed. We are not sure about that. And it appears, however, that
4 tomorrow morning's session could be scheduled in the afternoon if it is a
5 very short one. So would that be possible?
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, just I think Mr. Sacirbey wanted
10 to address the Court on the issue of scheduling, if you would hear from
11 him. You recall that we had heard previously from the Defence last week.
12 They indicated they would need two more sessions with him which would
13 have been Monday. When we discussed matter of the Court out of an
14 abundance of caution, we also discussed Tuesday. But I don't think any
15 one has discussed with Mr. Sacirbey his availability beyond tomorrow.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was Mr. Sacirbey not present when we discussed it
17 earlier? I thought Mr. Sacirbey was there when we discussed when we
18 discussed when Mr. Harmon was here.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: He was.
20 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I was under the
21 impression -- Your Honour, I was under the impression from the
22 discussions yesterday with Mr. Guy-Smith who said he would conclude his
23 cross-examination today, and my counsel nor I have made any preparation
24 beyond that. In fact, on the basis of Mr. Guy-Smith's statement
25 yesterday, we assumed the testimony would be completed today, and we had
1 made alternative plans.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do, understand, Mr. Sacirbey, that after
3 Mr. Guy-Smith's cross-examination, there's still re-examination to take
4 place, and we have no idea how long that will take. And then there are
5 questions from the Bench, and then there may be questions arising from
6 the question by the Bench. So that, you know, you really have to make
7 yourself available for testifying and not make arrangements based on what
8 Defence counsel says.
9 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] I apologise. Your Honour, we were
10 just under the impression that it would be concluding with
11 cross-examination. If you don't mind, can you please let us know how
12 long you think this will continue. And counsel and I will consult and do
13 whatever else we have to accommodate the Court.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know how long Mr. Guy-Smith is still going
15 to be. But even if he does finish, there's still re-examination by the
16 Prosecution. And then after re-examination by the Prosecution, there may
17 be questions from the Bench. And after the questions from the Bench,
18 there may be questions by either party arising from the questions by the
19 Bench. So, you know -- you understand. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Yeah, I do understand. I guess, if
21 I may, Your Honour, in the context of the cross-examination, my counsel
22 is probably most critical. So I will try to accommodate the Court and
23 whatever I can personally, and I'll work with my counsel.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You do that. Thank you very much,
25 Mr. Sacirbey.
1 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Before the break, I asked you the following question and you gave
5 me the following response, which is:
6 "Okay. Is it your testimony that in 1980 in Louisiana you were
7 not arrested for gambling in public?"
8 And your answer is as follows:
9 "No, it is my testimony that if that was the case ..." and then
10 you continue with your answer.
11 I once again will ask you the same question. I am not asking
12 whether or not if it was the case, I'm asking is it your testimony that
13 you were not arrested in 1980 for gambling in Louisiana, yes or no?
14 A. As I have said, I'm not aware of what I may have been arrested
15 for at that time. I do recall being arrested, and as I said, I think it
16 was on more than one occasion in New Orleans at a time when I was a
17 student. And I certainly have never been charged or any further action
18 brought with respect to that issue. So if you would like to refresh my
19 memory, I'll be very happy to see you do that.
20 Q. Okay. Since you've indicated you were arrested on more than one
21 occasion in Louisiana
22 Mr. Sacirbey: Were you arrested on more than one occasion in Louisiana
23 as a student for gambling?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Do you recall being arrested in 1980 in the 4th district
1 for the Orleans
2 March for gambling in public? Just being arrested, I didn't ask you
3 whether you were charged, any further than the arrest.
4 A. I remember, as I said, more than one arrest, I do not remember
5 ever such charge being lodged.
6 Q. That's not my question, sir. And unfortunately your avoidance of
7 the specific question is making this tedious. It's a very simple
8 question. This is not a difficult -- Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey.
9 A. You are try put words in my mouth. You are trying to put words
10 if my mouth.
11 Q. No, I am not trying to put words in your mouth at all. I am
12 asking you a very simple question.
13 A. You are trying to put words into my mouth.
14 Q. [Overlapping speakers]... I am not. You are an attorney, and you
15 clearly understand a distinction between an arrest and a charge. This is
16 not a game you should be playing with me or with this Chamber?
17 A. Excuse me, excuse me, Mr. Guy-Smith. Was in fact no charge or
18 ever arrest was ever read to me if I was picked up.
19 Q. Is it your testimony that you were picked up in 1980 for gambling
20 in public? Is that your testimony?
21 A. No, it is not. Because if I was picked up, I may be completely
22 unaware of what it was for. And you are now trying to lodge your own
24 Q. I'm not trying to do anything, sir. I'm just asking you
25 questions about your past.
1 A. You are asking me about 29 years ago, a specific date, a specific
2 charge, a specific issue. I have given you my best answer.
3 Q. As a matter of fact, I tried to be -- I tried to be kind with you
4 and give you more than just a specific date so that it would be of
5 assistance to you, but apparently you are either incapable or unwilling
6 to answer the question.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could please have --
8 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] [Previous translation continues] ...
9 satisfaction, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could please have -- this would be tab
11 number 6, this is 1D03-0265.
12 MS. BOLTON: I think this is a document in respect of the area
13 where we had had the ruling about going into the Prosecution being able
14 to request to go into private session, I'd make that request,
15 Your Honour.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 8169-8192 redacted.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. You've told us that you have dual citizenship, correct,
16 Mr. Sacirbey?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And with regard to your dual citizenship, I take it that you
19 also, at one point in your life, also had what you believed to be
20 diplomatic immunity; correct?
21 A. Again it depended on the circumstance, of course. Diplomatic
22 immunity is asserted by the country for which you serve and the
24 Q. Okay. Were you involved in a matter at the Harrahs Jazz Casino
25 in New Orleans in late April 2000, in which you were accused of using
1 loaded dice?
2 A. Accused by who? I'm sorry. Are you suggesting I was arrested,
3 charged or anything?
4 Q. No, I'm suggesting you were accused. And when the police came to
5 deal with the matter, you asserted diplomatic immunity?
6 A. I was never -- first of all, are you, again, suggesting that I
7 was arrested or charged or accused by who? Again, I'm trying to make
8 sure you are completely correct on that statement.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was accused, Mr. Sacirbey, not
10 arrested, not charged.
11 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Your Honour, I'm not sure what
12 assertions may have been made by others, but I'm not aware of being
13 charged or arrested for that purpose. If someone accused me for that,
14 that is their opinion at best. I'm just not aware of any sort of
15 accusations by any official. Yes.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH:
17 Q. Mr. Sacirbey, isn't it a fact that you were contacted by police
18 at the Harrah's Jazz Casino in New Orleans concerning the fact that you
19 had been using loaded dice in gambling, and you told them that you had
20 diplomatic immunity?
21 A. I told them that I was a diplomat. I told them my identity and
22 my title.
23 Q. When you say that you told them that you were a diplomat, you
24 asserted your diplomatic immunity so that you would not be arrested for
25 this particular offence, that being the use of loaded dice in gambling?
1 A. That's not correct. In fact, in fact, I pursued my only legal
2 action against that particular institution.
3 Q. You were contacted after you were let go because you said that
4 you had diplomatic immunity and you claimed that the whole incident was a
5 result of either police harassment or enemies that you had; correct?
6 A. That is largely correct.
7 Q. And when you say that is largely correct, what part of that do
8 you take issue with, if any?
9 A. Well, again since you use the term loaded dice, I have -- I was
10 certainly not using loaded dice. I certainly was not engaged in any
11 illegal activity, so I have still not come to the bottom of what this
12 incident was all about except that it did appear in the press. And
13 frankly, I cannot tell you whether it was some sort of mistaken
14 assertion, whether in fact it was some sort of harassment, or whether in
15 fact it was some sort of setup.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --
17 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] Clearly the fact that you have
18 outlined of any sort of loaded dice being used is not accurate.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sacirbey, Mr. Sacirbey, please, let's try to
20 listen to the question and answer directly to the question. The question
21 that you answered, that is largely correct, to does not refer at all to a
22 loaded dice. The question was simply:
23 "You were contacted after you were let go because you said that
24 you had diplomatic immunity, and you claimed that the whole incident was
25 a result of either police harassment or enemies that you had; correct?"
1 And your answer was: "That is largely correct."
2 Next question was: "What part, if any, of that question do you
3 take issue with?"
4 Now do you remember there's no loaded dice in that question. You
5 can answer that question, what part do you take issue with?
6 THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] To the extent that the question is
7 repeating the point of did I claim diplomatic immunity, as I said I did
8 not. I only identified myself. And second of all, to the extent that
9 the question suggested I have come to a conclusion, what was behind this
10 incident, I have not. I still believe it consists on one of the three
11 possibilities that I outlined, which is potentially a mistake, some sort
12 of harassment, or some sort of setup.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. As an American citizen being approached by a state police in
16 a diplomat?
17 A. Actually, I was in New Orleans on a speaking engagement. And to
18 the extent that I'm acting in the context of my responsibilities, that
19 would be very relevant.
20 Q. If I understand your answer, is it your position that because you
21 were a diplomat, that you were shielded from arrest in the event there
22 was --
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was not complete yet, Mr. Sacirbey.
25 Just wait for the question to be complete.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH:
2 Q. In the event that you were approached by the police with regard
3 to cheating at dice at a casino?
4 A. Again I think you made an assumption in there as to why I was
5 approached. And second of all, it is highly relevant why I'm in
6 New Orleans and the fact that I have to continue, I was then doing in
7 effect a week's worth of courses at Tulane University.
8 Q. While you were doing your week's worth of courses at
9 Tulane University
10 been the subject matter of our discussion?
11 A. The hotel which I stayed was in fact right there. It was either
12 part of the building or right across the street. In fact, I think they
13 are connected. So I would pass through it or pass by it all the time
14 back to my hotel.
15 Q. Were you playing dice or a game which is called craps in the
16 United States for which you were approached by the police because they
17 were concerned that you were cheating?
18 A. Again I think you are making an assumption as to why the police
19 or anyone else would approach me. As to whether or not if you are asking
20 me was I engaged in any games, the answer is yes.
21 Q. Was the game that you were engaged in the game of dice or craps,
22 as its called in the United States?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you approached by the police with regard to your involvement
25 in the game of dice at the casino?
1 A. Again, I'm not sure why they approached me.
2 Q. When they approached you, did you have a conversation with them?
3 A. Yes, they asked me to identify myself.
4 Q. Did they discuss with you the fact that you were suspected of
5 cheating at dice?
6 A. Not that I recall, although the issue may have been raised by
7 them later or someone else.
8 Q. Is it your testimony as you sit here --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the time, Your Honour, but I'm
10 almost done with my examination.
11 Q. Is it your testimony as you sit here at this time that you were
12 unclear as to why you were being approached by the police at the casino,
13 and they just came up and asked you to identify yourself?
14 A. Yes, because I was -- I was -- yes, I was quite upset by whatever
15 the issue was that they were trying to raise with me.
16 Q. And as you sit here today, it's your testimony there was no
17 discussion at all with regard to any gambling activities that you were
18 engaged in, but rather that the police just came up to you and asked you
19 to identify yourself; is that right?
20 A. At the time that I was approached, I'm quite certain that that's
21 what they asked me to do. As to whatever else may have been discussed,
22 Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm not aware, and in fact whatever else may have been
23 said in the press, I'm not aware of.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I see. This would be an appropriate time.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 As always I must remind you that during the adjournment, you may
2 not discuss the case with anybody else, and you shall not do so until you
3 are excused from further testifying.
4 The matter stands adjourned to Thursday the 16th of July at
5 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon. Court adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of July,
8 2009, at 2.15 p.m.