Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9461

 1                           Monday, 2 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     today, please, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning counsel.

14     Good morning everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton, and

15     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

19     morning to all the parties to the proceedings.  The Defence of

20     Mr. Perisic is represented by Tina Drolec today, who is for the first

21     time also Case Manager; Chad Mair; our intern Alex Fielding; and

22     Novak Lukic as chief Defence counsel.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Just to place on the record

24     that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge David

25     who is not here because of health reasons.

Page 9462

 1             May I just also start off by apologising for starting late.  It

 2     was due to circumstances beyond our control.  Before we call the witness,

 3     there is an oral decision to be rendered.  I think the Defence filed some

 4     response last Friday night.  We need to deal with the motion related

 5     thereto.

 6             The Trial Chamber is seized of a Prosecution motion for leave to

 7     file a tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter list and request to tender certain

 8     exhibits from the bar table filed on the 16th of October, 2009,

 9     hereinafter referred to separately as Prosecution 65 ter list motion, and

10     third bar table motion.  On the 23rd of October, 2009, the Defence filed

11     a response to the Prosecution 65 ter list motion only with respect to the

12     documents relevant to the evidence of Major General Mungo Melvin.  On the

13     26th of October, 2009, the Trial Chamber pursuant to Rule 127 of the

14     rules, issued an oral decision partly granting the Defence's request for

15     an extension of time in relation to both the second and third bar table

16     motion and stated that the Trial Chamber remained seized of the

17     Prosecution 65 ter list motion with respect to the remaining documents.

18     On the 30th of October 2009, a Defence response to Prosecution motion for

19     leave to file a tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter exhibit list was filed

20     with respect to the remainder of the tenth supplemental Rule 65 ter list.

21             In light of the arguments submitted by the Prosecution, and

22     having considered the arguments advanced by the Defence, the

23     Trial Chamber is satisfied that the Prosecution has shown good cause to

24     amend its consolidated exhibit list at this stage of the proceedings, and

25     has demonstrated the prima facie relevance and probative value of these

Page 9463

 1     documents in relation to issues raised in the indictment, as well as to

 2     the witness's credibility.  The Trial Chamber pursuant to Rules 54 and 65

 3     ter of the rules find that it is in the interest of justice to grant the

 4     addition of the remaining items on the 10th supplemental list to the

 5     Prosecution's consolidated exhibit list.

 6             Mr. Harmon.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, Ms. Bolton will lead the next witness.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.  Good morning to you, Madam Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Good morning, Your Honour.  The next witness for the

10     Prosecution is Ned Krayishnik.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, sir.

13             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration, sir.

15             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may be seated.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

20                           WITNESS:  NED KRAYISHNIK

21                           Examination by Ms. Bolton:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Krayishnik.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Are you receiving any translation through your headphones, or are

25     you just receiving the English?

Page 9464

 1        A.   I may need sometime translation, some words are not that I use

 2     every day.

 3        Q.   Right now are you getting just English, or are you also getting

 4     the B/C/S translation?

 5        A.   English.

 6        Q.   If you need to switch at any point in time, just let us know,

 7     okay.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Sir, could you tell us in what country you were born?

10        A.   I was born in former Yugoslavia, in, presently, Bosnia.

11        Q.   Whereabouts?

12        A.   West east 20 kilometres from Sarajevo.

13        Q.   And what is your ethnicity, sir?

14        A.   What is my what?

15        Q.   Ethnicity.

16        A.   Serbian.

17        Q.   While you were living in the former Yugoslavia, did you perform

18     any service with the JNA, the army?

19        A.   The Yugoslav Army, yes, I did.

20        Q.   When was that?

21        A.   I went to the army 1962, until 196 -- 1963 until 1965.

22        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber where you were living, what country

23     you were living in between the years 1992 and 1996.

24        A.   Canada.

25        Q.   And could you tell the Chamber approximately how old you were

Page 9465

 1     when you first moved to Canada?

 2        A.   I was 22.

 3        Q.   I'm just going to ask you, if you can, to remember to pause a

 4     little bit after my question before you answer so that it can be

 5     translated.  Okay.

 6        A.   Sure, thank you.

 7        Q.   And can you just tell the Chamber very briefly why it was that

 8     you left the former Yugoslavia and went to Canada?

 9        A.   Well, it was -- at the time it was a communist system, and I

10     didn't feel any democracy, and my father was monarchist during the Second

11     World War, he was serving in the General Mihajlovic armed forces which

12     was called regular Yugoslavian army.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, did you say he was a soldier in Germany or

14     in General Mihajlovic's forces?

15             THE WITNESS:  General Mihajlovic's forces.

16             MS. BOLTON:

17        Q.   Thank you, I just want to talk to you about your contact with the

18     Office of the Prosecutor, that's the office that I work for.  On

19     August 9th of this year, did you have a meeting with myself and a

20     gentleman named Julian Nicholls of the Office of the Prosecutor at a

21     hotel in Canada?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Do you remember those -- the discussions that we had were

24     recorded in any fashion?

25        A.   I believe that it was recorded.  Actually, it was recorded.

Page 9466

 1        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review a transcript of the

 2     recording?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   And I'm just going to suggest you pointed out a couple of errors

 5     in the transcription during that process.

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   And I'll just identify some of those for the Court.  One of them

 8     was that there was a gentleman in the transcript who was repeatedly

 9     referred to as a Mr. Akanovic.  What is that gentleman's actual name?

10        A.   Rakanovic.

11        Q.   Could you just spell that for the Court reporter, please.

12        A.   R-a-k-a-n-o-v-i-c.

13        Q.   There was also a misspelling, as I understand it, of the name of

14     a Bishop or a metropolitan, what is his actual name?

15        A.   His name was Bishop Irinej.

16        Q.   How would you spell that?

17        A.   I-r-i-n-e-j.

18        Q.   And prior to that first meeting with us on the 9th of August,

19     2009, had you had the opportunity to review any videotapes, diaries,

20     photographs, or any other materials that would refresh your memory?

21        A.   Would you repeat the question, please.

22        Q.   Prior to that first meeting in August 2009 with myself and

23     Mr. Nicholls, had you had the opportunity to review any video-tapes, or

24     photographs, diaries, anything to refresh your memory about the things we

25     discussed?

Page 9467

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   There was, I'm going to suggest, a second meeting on the 10th of

 3     September, 2009, again with myself and this time with an RCMP officer

 4     named John McMath.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   And at that time did you provide a statement to Officer McMath

 7     and myself?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Could I just -- Court's indulgence.  Yes, I'm sorry

10     I'm going to pulling up doc ID 1D04-0461.

11        Q.   In a moment, sir, there should be a document appearing on the

12     screen in front of you.  While we are waiting for that document to

13     appear, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether during that second

14     set of meetings in Toronto --  or, sorry, not Toronto -- the second set

15     of meetings in Ontario in September, at that time did you have the

16     opportunity to review any photographs, videotapes, or other materials to

17     refresh your memory?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Did those materials assist you in refreshing your memory?

20        A.   Yes, they did.

21        Q.   Okay.  There should be a document now before you both in English

22     and B/C/S.

23             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could ask the court clerk, please, to go to

24     the last page of each document.

25        Q.   In the English document, sir, you should see a signature.  Can

Page 9468

 1     you tell me whose signature that is?

 2        A.   It is my signature.

 3        Q.   And you'll see in paragraph 31, for example, there's a word

 4     that's been crossed out Kolevic, and written above it is a different

 5     spelling of that word.  Could you tell me who -- at whose request that

 6     correction was made.

 7        A.   Mine.

 8        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to review the statement then and

 9     make corrections before you signed it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And having had your memory refreshed as a result of the materials

12     you reviewed, did you make some corrections in that second statement to

13     the original audio-taped statement you'd given?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15             MS. BOLTON:  I'm done with that document.

16        Q.   I want to take you back, sir, to the time-period 1992 to 1996.

17     Are you familiar with an organisation called the - it was a Canadian

18     organisation - called the Serbian Republic Humanitarian Organisation?

19        A.   Yes, I am.

20        Q.   What kind of an organisation was that?

21        A.   It was a humanitarian organisation.

22        Q.   Do you recall approximately what year it was established or

23     founded?

24        A.   I'm not sure exactly, but I think it was established in 1992

25     sometime.

Page 9469

 1        Q.   Okay.  Who were the founders?

 2        A.   It was registered, I believe, in Hamilton by Mr. Lesic and

 3     Jovan Grubor, Ranko Rakanovic, and myself.  And there were some other

 4     people that I forgot their name now.

 5        Q.   When we are talking about Hamilton, we are talking about

 6     Hamilton, Ontario?

 7        A.   Yes, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

 8        Q.   And the other gentlemen that you named, Mr. Lesic, Mr. Gruber,

 9     Mr. -- is it Jokanovic?

10        A.   No, Rakanovic.

11        Q.   It's Rakanovic; it's the same person that -- whose name you

12     corrected the spelling of earlier?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Were these individuals you knew before the institution was

15     founded, or are these people you met in the course of founding the

16     organisation?

17        A.   I knew those three individuals before.

18        Q.   And what was it that prompted you to establish this organisation?

19        A.   Well, we were watching the news and the war started in Bosnia or

20     former Yugoslavia, and I saw on the TV, saw my own distant relative, that

21     they were locked in a house and burned in the house.  And then I was

22     watching the news, and I saw that there were the people, saw my own

23     relatives were displaced all over the place, that nobody knew where they

24     were.

25        Q.   So what did you set out to do then by founding this institution?

Page 9470

 1        A.   Well, we thought that we should be able to get together and try

 2     to find those people and assist them in -- in the necessity, whatever,

 3     either clothing or food or whatever.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Was the organisation involved in any fundraising in Canada

 5     for those purposes?

 6        A.   Yes, it was.

 7        Q.   And who were the intended recipients of the fundraising or the

 8     aid that you intended or hoped to deliver?

 9        A.   Well, we tried to find it through the government and through the

10     army.  The government told us that they wouldn't know where they had --

11     that the army would be able to assist us and find where the people might

12     be and where can we locate them and help them.

13        Q.   Let me ask the question in a different way.  Was your intention

14     to provide aid to people in what region, first of all?

15        A.   Well, there was not really a region.  We thought that wherever it

16     was necessary, wherever the people were located or placed or whatever.

17     Or hospital or camps or whatever.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just get some clarity, sir.  Was this aid

19     intended for your relatives and distant relatives, or was it intended for

20     everybody in former Yugoslavia that you thought was a victim in the

21     manner that you described people locked up in houses and displaced?

22             THE WITNESS:  It was in general to help anybody that was in a

23     need.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             Madam Bolton.

Page 9471

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Was the aid that you delivered provided to people of all

 3     ethnicities?

 4        A.   I don't think so because we wouldn't be able to reach any other

 5     ethnicities and which was controlled with the other ethnic territories.

 6        Q.   Now, you indicated that your group did some fundraising.  Were

 7     they successful in actually raising some money or other tangible goods

 8     for delivery to the region?

 9        A.   It was fairly, not huge quantity, but it was -- we were able to

10     raise the funds from the people that -- because everybody more or less

11     had somebody that was affected.

12        Q.   And how would you go about ensuring that the funds reached the

13     people in need?  Would you just wire the money over?

14        A.   Well, we couldn't wire it.  We usually took it over with us.  We

15     always had -- our treasurer was always going because he was in charge of

16     it, and somebody would most of the time accompany him.  And then when we

17     arrived we would find out where was most needed and how to be located.

18        Q.   Who was the treasurer?

19        A.   Mr. Lesic.

20        Q.   What is his first name?

21        A.   Milan.

22        Q.   Did you personally make any trips to the region between 1992 and

23     1996?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Could you approximate how many trips you made.

Page 9472

 1        A.   Approximately I think I made about five, six trips.  I'm not

 2     exactly sure, but in that vicinity.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I don't intend to ask you about all your trips, sir, but I

 4     do want to ask you about the first trip you made.  Can you recall what

 5     year and what month you made that first trip to the region on behalf of

 6     the humanitarian organisation?

 7        A.   It was in December 1992.

 8        Q.   Did anybody accompany you?

 9        A.   From Canada was Mr. Lesic and myself.

10        Q.   And I am assuming you flew out of Canada, you didn't take a boat?

11        A.   Yes.  We flew.

12        Q.   Where did you -- what country did you fly into?

13        A.   We flew to, I believe, Budapest and Hungary, and from Budapest we

14     drove, we came by taxi.

15        Q.   By taxi to where?

16        A.   To Belgrade.

17        Q.   During this trip, what was the -- what was the nature of the aid

18     you were intending to deliver?

19        A.   It was money because this was our first trip, and we thought the

20     only thing they could buy what needed to be bought over there, and we had

21     no way of taking it any other way over there.

22        Q.   And prior to that first trip, had you any contacts in the region

23     or made any prior arrangements for who was going to get the money?

24        A.   No, we did not.

25        Q.   So when you arrive in Belgrade then with the money, what do you

Page 9473

 1     do?

 2        A.   Then we made some contact and the people, and stayed in Belgrade,

 3     I think, for a couple of days until we found a better place called Srpska

 4     Vila in Belgrade.  And then I run into Bishop Irinej who I knew from

 5     before through the church organisation and diocese.

 6        Q.   Who was Bishop Irinej?

 7        A.   He was the Bishop Metropolitan Irinej for United States and

 8     Canada, of Serbian Orthodox diocese.

 9        Q.   And so you ran into him in the Srpska Vila in Belgrade; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   And when you ran into him, did you discuss with him what you were

13     doing there?

14        A.   Yes, I did.  He was asking me what I'm doing, and I was asking

15     him what he is doing.  And he said, Well, it looks like we are on the

16     same mission.

17        Q.   Was he able to assist you then in finding a place or somebody to

18     give the funds to?

19        A.   Yes, he was.  He had a contact with the Metropolitan Nikolas in

20     the Republika Srpska, called Sokolac -- Pale, sorry.

21        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you another document, sir.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Could I have 65 ter 2085.01, please.

23        Q.   Again, sir, it should show up on the screen in front of you and

24     in both English and Cyrillic, B/C/S.

25        A.   Sorry, what was the question?

Page 9474

 1        Q.   I haven't asked you a question, yet, sir, but thank you for being

 2     so attentive.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  In the English version, I'm interested in going to

 4     page 76, please.  And if we could scroll down the page.  I have to

 5     apologise to my friends across the courtroom.  I can sometimes locate

 6     things in B/C/S when it's not written in Cyrillic, but I really could not

 7     figure out what the corresponding page number was in the Cyrillic

 8     document.  So I hope that doesn't pose my friends any problem.

 9             Mr. Lukic, do you need some time, or?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's not a problem for me, but I

11     would like for the benefit of my client the Cyrillic version to be

12     displayed.  Maybe the legal officer can help us, or the usher.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Or maybe, you, Mr. Lukic, if you have identified

14     the page, you can tell us what page it is so that your client can get to

15     the page too.  Now, it's page 17 in the English.

16             MS. BOLTON:  It's 76 to 78 in the English.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have -- if I had the document in

18     hard copy before me, it would be easier, but all I have is what I see on

19     the screen.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I right to say what we have in the B/C/S now on

21     the screen is the first page of the document?  Maybe if we can go in that

22     document, deep into the document around 76, 77.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It's page 70.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 70 we are told it is.

25             MS. BOLTON:  All right.

Page 9475

 1        Q.   Sir -- if we could scroll down, please, on the English page.

 2     There's an indication in this document.  We saw on the first page that

 3     this was a transcript of the proceedings of the 23rd session of the

 4     National Assembly of the Republika Srpska held on 17th December, 1992.

 5     And about two-thirds down this page there's an indication that we have

 6     some guests, Serbs from Canada, Mr. Lesic and Mr. -- it says Kraisnik.

 7        A.   Kraisnik.

 8        Q.   It's spelled differently.  Do you know which Mr. Kraisnik that

 9     is?

10        A.   Mr. Kraisnik?  Are you talking about me, or are you talking --

11        Q.   Well, were you at the Serb assembly on the 17th of December,

12     1992?

13        A.   Yes, I was.

14        Q.   Okay.  And if we could move forward in that document, please, to

15     the next page, page 77 in English.  I'm sure it will be on the next page

16     in B/C/S as well.

17        A.   I'm getting a little bit confused.  What is the B/C/S?

18        Q.   Well, I'm sorry, that's -- we use that term to refer to Bosnian

19     Serbian Croatian.  So when --

20        A.   Can we refer to Serbian?

21        Q.   I can try to refer to Serbian.

22        A.   Please.

23        Q.   It's a bad habit.

24        A.   Thank you.

25        Q.   Certainly.  You'll see on the English version, sir, on page 77.

Page 9476

 1     If we could scroll up a little bit, there's some text that starts with

 2     the name Ned Krayishnik.  And scrolling down again on the page, we have a

 3     second paragraph that indicates -- starts with saying:

 4             "We decided to come here to help as much as we can.  Mr. Milan

 5     Lesic delivered $15.000 here for the media and propaganda, for I think

 6     that we have lost the war the most in that area, and our enemies have

 7     been the most successful on that account.  In addition, Lesic also

 8     decided to make a contribution to the Ministry of Defence and our

 9     government, and since you know best where it is most needed, you will

10     solve that the best.  He is again given $10.000 personally.  Mr. Slobodan

11     Nikolic, an industrious Serb from Jelinek near Belgrade, owns a small

12     machine shop.  Somebody knocks on his door every day, and he never says

13     that cannot contribute.  He contributes every day, and if it is twice a

14     day, again he gives.  We've also brought $10.000 he sent.  I, too, am

15     giving $10.000 may name, the $15 .000 given by my brother Lesic..."  And

16     then they go on to explain some more.

17             Do you recognise that, sir, as being a portion of the speech that

18     you made to the assembly on that occasion?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   And if my math is correct, the total amount of aid then given was

21     about $45.000?

22        A.   Probably, yeah.  I didn't add it, but, yeah, it would be.

23        Q.   Okay.  Could you just explain, then.  You told us that --

24             MS. BOLTON:  I just want pages 76 to 78 of this document marked

25     as an exhibit.  That's the portion that we've been dealing with.

Page 9477

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  And page 1, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I right to say this is ID 040461?

 4             MS. BOLTON:  No, this is 65 ter 2085.01.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What happened to 040461?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  I was not seeking to tender it in evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay. [Microphone not activated] 65 ter 0885 --

 8     2085.1 --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I'm so sorry.  Many things

11     going wrong this morning.

12             65 ter 2085.01 admitted into evidence.

13             May it please be given an exhibit number and marked for

14     identification.

15             What did you say, ma'am?  Did you say MFI?

16             MS. BOLTON:  No, I did not.  I often do, but not today.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not today.  Thank you.

18             Admitted into evidence.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 02085.01, pages 1, 76, and

20     77 in English; pages 70, 71, and first page in B/C/S shall be

21     Exhibit P2789.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

24        Q.   The Chamber will just need a little bit of an explanation, sir,

25     how it came to pass that you were in Belgrade where you ran into the

Page 9478

 1     metropolitan, and then ultimately you were in the Serb -- Bosnian Serb

 2     Assembly.  First of all, where was that Bosnian Serb Assembly meeting

 3     that we were referring to?

 4        A.   Pale.

 5        Q.   So could you just explain how you came to be connected into Pale?

 6        A.   Well, we flew by helicopter, Red Cross helicopter.  And when we

 7     arrived there, then it happened that they had assembly same time, and we

 8     were told that we should go to the assembly and give our donation and

 9     metropolitan arranged that we get there and address the assembly.

10        Q.   So would I be fair in saying that the metropolitan was the one

11     who was able to help you make the contact and so forth?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Prior to December 1992, had you ever met any high-ranking

14     politician in the Republika Srpska?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   And how about any high-ranking military official in the

17     Republika Srpska?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   As a result of your attendance at the assembly, did you have the

20     opportunity in December 1992 to meet some military and political

21     officials?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   I just have a couple of photographs I'd like to show you, sir.

24             MS. BOLTON:  And the first is 65 ter 9600.02.

25             THE WITNESS:  Are you asking me, or ...

Page 9479

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Sorry, again, the photograph is going to magically appear on the

 3     screen in front of you in a moment.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Can that be made a little bigger.  Great.

 5        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this photograph?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Where was this photograph taken?

 8        A.   I believe this was done in Pale.

 9        Q.   And what month and year?

10        A.   In December 1992.

11        Q.   Okay.  Going from left to right in the photo, can you help us by

12     identifying the people.

13        A.   General Ratko Mladic, President Radovan Karadzic,

14     Mr. Milan Lesic, General Milan Gvero, and myself.

15        Q.   Okay.  You are the individual with the moustache at the time?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's marked as an exhibit.  May it please be given

19     an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

21     Exhibit P2790.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could have 65 ter 9600.03, please.

24        Q.   When, relative to the last photo, was this photograph taken?

25        A.   This one?

Page 9480

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   I believe this was also in Pale.

 3        Q.   And in terms of the date?

 4        A.   I believe it was evening, night.

 5        Q.   Sorry, evening of what day?

 6        A.   I believe it was 17th.

 7        Q.   Of?

 8        A.   December 1992.

 9        Q.   And again just going from first the back row, left to right.

10        A.   Myself; General Gvero, Milan; and General Ratko Mladic.

11        Q.   Front row?

12        A.   Front row, Bishop Irinej.  And the gentleman next to him, I don't

13     recall his name.

14        Q.   Okay.  And when was this get-together relative to the assembly

15     meeting that you attended?

16        A.   I believe this was after the assembly meeting.

17             MS. BOLTON:  If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

19     exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes

21     Exhibit P2791.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:

24        Q.   You've told us that on that first trip you were in Belgrade and

25     then you visited Pale.  Do you recall if you travelled anywhere else in

Page 9481

 1     the Republika Srpska on that occasion?

 2        A.   Yes, we did.  From Pale we went to Kasindol.  And on the way we

 3     stopped on one place, which was right down the main road to Kasindol.  I

 4     think it's called Trebinje, I'm not sure.  I'm sorry, not Trebinje.  The

 5     -- I cannot recall the name now, sorry.

 6        Q.   It's all right, sir.  Approximately how long did you stay for

 7     that -- during that first trip?  How long were you in the region?

 8        A.   I believe we were there altogether two or three days.  I'm not

 9     sure.

10        Q.   Okay.  Two or three days in Bosnia, or two or three days in

11     Bosnia and Serbia?

12        A.   In Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Okay.  When you -- I take it you returned to Canada after this

14     trip?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When you returned to Canada, did either yourself or Mr. Lesic

17     maintain any contact with any of the people you had met during that first

18     trip in December 1992?

19        A.   We might have, but I don't remember, maybe later on.  I don't

20     know how late or what time.  I don't recall that.

21        Q.   Okay.  You've told us that you've made subsequent trips.  During

22     any of your subsequent trips, did you have the opportunity to meet any of

23     the family members of any high-ranking military officials, first?

24        A.   My family members in the military?

25        Q.   No, their family members.

Page 9482

 1        A.   My first trip I don't -- no, I didn't meet any family members of

 2     the --

 3        Q.   Later on?

 4        A.   Later on I did.

 5        Q.   Whose family members did you meet?

 6        A.   I met General Mladic wife and daughter, and also I met

 7     President Karadzic wife.

 8        Q.   And were you ever invited to the homes of any politicians in the

 9     Republika Srpska?

10        A.   I was invited to Momcilo Krajisnik once for a very brief, maybe

11     less than an hour.  We had a coffee, and it was not too far away from the

12     -- it was in Pale.  But I met his, I believe it was three or four

13     children that he had.

14        Q.   Okay.  Apart from the contact -- sorry, let me just show you a

15     couple of other photos, sir.  You've told us you made subsequent trips.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Could I have 65 ter 9600.10, please.

17        Q.   Okay.  Showing you a photo, sir, and it has -- appears to be a

18     date stamp on the lower right corner 93/10/9.  First of all, do you

19     recognise this photo?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Are you visible in this photo?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Where are you?

24        A.   I'm at the left far end.

25        Q.   Okay.  Where was this photo taken?

Page 9483

 1        A.   In Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka.

 2        Q.   Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Where is Han Pijesak?

 5        A.   Han Pijesak is -- I'm not sure.  Approximately around

 6     40 kilometres from Pale.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And is it --

 8        A.   East.

 9        Q.   Sorry.  Is it part of the Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   What was at Han Pijesak?

12        A.   It was the headquarters of Serbian army.

13        Q.   When you say the Serbian army, are you talking about the Bosnian

14     Serbian army, or the --

15        A.   I'm talking about the Bosnian Republika Srpska army.

16        Q.   And you also referred to it as Crna -- I get this wrong.

17        A.   Crna Rijeka.

18        Q.   Exactly, Crna Rijeka.  Is there any difference between

19     Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka?

20        A.   It's the same vicinity, maybe just outskirt of the town.

21        Q.   And can you just assist us, please, in -- first of all, is the

22     date stamp correct of 93/10/9?

23        A.   I don't see the date on it this one.

24        Q.   On the lower right-hand corner.

25        A.   Oh, yeah.  Yeah.

Page 9484

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And can you assist us going around the table from front

 4     left as to who is there.

 5        A.   Mr. Milan Lesic, General Milan Gvero, and Mrs. Mladic.

 6        Q.   So you've obviously skipped yourself.

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   And on the other side of the table then, there's only one woman

 9     there, that's Mrs.  Mladic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Next to her?

12        A.   I believe the -- it's a very not clear picture.  I think

13     General Mladic, but I cannot see it very clear.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   And then next to him is Marko Sandalj and General Milosevic.

16        Q.   General Dragomir Milosevic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And the man you indicated was next to Mr. General Milosevic is

19     from where?

20        A.   Canada.

21        Q.   And how do you spell his last name?

22        A.   S-a-n-d-a-l-j.

23        Q.   And is he part of the humanitarian work that you were doing?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

Page 9485

 1             If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

 3     number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit P2792.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  And if I could have 65 ter 9600.11, please.

 7        Q.   All right.  There's a couple of people in this photo that don't

 8     appear to have been in the one we just dealt with.  This is also dated

 9     93/10/9.  Is this the same or a different location as the last photo we

10     discussed?

11        A.   Same location.

12        Q.   The gentleman to the far right of the photo at the very front, do

13     you recognise him or remember his name?

14        A.   At the head table?

15        Q.   At the far right of the photo, the person -- you can see the

16     badge on his uniform.

17        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

18        Q.   No, that's the head of the table.  I'm talking about far right of

19     the photo, the person who has got the date stamp over top of them.

20        A.   I don't know his name.  He was there, but I never met him after

21     or before.

22        Q.   Okay.  Do you recognise persons who are seated next to

23     General Dragomir Milosevic?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are going to confuse us, Madam Bolton.  If you

25     start with this gentleman, why don't you go around the table.

Page 9486

 1             MS. BOLTON:  We'll go around the table, then.

 2        Q.   Let's start with the gentleman on the far left of the photo, sir.

 3     With the --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the far left of the photo.  You started on the

 5     far right the photo.  Now where are you going?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  I was going to go left to right, Your Honour, as

 7     opposed to --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If you go left to right, now you are

 9     starting with the man with the mustache, which I suspect is the witness.

10             MS. BOLTON:  The gentleman on the far left in the army uniform.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, the gentleman right at the beginning of the

12     table.  The man sitting opposite the man with the date stamp.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, that's who we are going to start with.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.

16        Q.   Did you understand, Mr. Krayishnik, that I'd like to start with

17     the gentleman on the far left of the photo with the mustache in the

18     uniform, and could we go around the table from him?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I want to be sure we are on the same page.  When

20     you say far left, I'm talking approximate of the person near left, the

21     very first person on the left.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I'm talking -- that's the same person we are

23     talking about, Your Honour.  I'm saying only saying far, because he is

24     the farthest left in the photo, I guess.  But he is the closest person in

25     the photo.

Page 9487

 1        Q.   So to make a simple matter very complicated, as I like to do, if

 2     we could start with that gentleman and go around the table, please,

 3     Mr. Krayishnik.

 4        A.   We are starting from my left and going around?

 5        Q.   Correct.

 6        A.   It's General Dragomir Milosevic, and next to him I don't see the

 7     face.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   I can't remember who was it.  And then next looks like it's a

10     woman; I don't know her either.  And then next one is General

11     Ratko Mladic wife and General Mladic.  And General Milan Gvero.  And I'm

12     not sure, it looks like there is somebody between General Gvero and

13     Mr. Lesic, but I don't see the -- then I see Milan Lesic, and then

14     myself, and Marko Sandalj.

15        Q.   And you've already identified the other gentleman.

16        A.   Which other gentleman?

17        Q.   Sorry, the person next to Mr. Sandalj, closest to the camera.

18        A.   Yeah, that is myself.

19        Q.   No, the person on the other side of Mr. Sandalj.

20        A.   Milan Lesic.

21        Q.   No, the --

22        A.   Oh, the first person.

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   I don't know.  I don't recognise that person.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 9488

 1        A.   I don't know him.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me --

 3             THE WITNESS:  You were talking about the person with the numbers

 4     on his shoulder.  Is that what you're asking?

 5             MS. BOLTON:

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   Yeah.  I don't know that gentleman.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me asking this question.  The person that

 9     you point as yourself doesn't seem to have a moustache this time; am I

10     right?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's on the right-hand side.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right, the second person on the right-hand

13     side.

14             THE WITNESS:  Third person on the right.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Third person.  Okay, so we can't see your face.

16     We can't whether you do or do not have.  Okay.

17             Now, you are the third person.  The second person on the right,

18     who is that?

19             THE WITNESS:  Marko Sandalj.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And the person on the other side of you,

21     that's the person that you don't know?

22             THE WITNESS:  The person to me.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The person on your right, on the right of you.

24             THE WITNESS:  On my right with the numbers on the shoulder, I

25     don't know him, yeah.

Page 9489

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, thank you so much.

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   Sorry.  I think we've confused things.  If you were seated at the

 4     table, sir, the person who was on your right with the striped shirt and

 5     the jacket and the dark hair slicked back?

 6        A.   That's Milan Lesic.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  If I could have that marked as the next exhibit,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  This document becomes

13     Exhibit P2793.

14             MS. BOLTON:

15        Q.   Other than having contact with some military officials and

16     politicians from the Republika Srpska in the region, between 1992 and

17     1996 did you have any contact with any politicians or military people

18     outside of the Balkans?

19        A.   Oh, I'm sorry, I did one time in New York.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. BOLTON:  If I could just show you -- sorry, did you want to

22     take a break, Your Honour?  I'm not sure.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  I realise -- it looks like we've gone far

24     beyond it, in fact.  If we could -- what time do we normally take our

25     break?  We would have taken it at quarter past to quarter to.  Okay.

Page 9490

 1     Let's take it to 11.00.00 and come back.  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Madam Bolton, just if the

 5     record could just show that the Chamber has been advised that for the

 6     first 12 minutes of this morning's session we were not broadcast.  It was

 7     not because we were in private session, it is simply because there was a

 8     technical hitch.  And I don't think the public missed much because what

 9     was happening then was just introductory remarks about the witness.

10             You may proceed.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Sir, you told us that you made several trips on behalf of your

13     humanitarian organisation to deliver, amongst other things, money to

14     organisations in the Republika Srpska.  Can you tell me if you had any

15     mechanism for proving to the people who donated the money in Canada that

16     in fact you had done what you said you would do and delivered it to the

17     Republika Srpska?

18        A.   Yes.  It was video-taped camera, mostly Mr. Lesic had.  And when

19     they were delivery, whatever it was, it was a video camera, and we showed

20     -- when we returned back home we would show to our board directors and

21     sometime to public when we were fundraising again.

22        Q.   So did Mr. -- how much videotape did Mr. Lesic generate sort of

23     typically in a trip?

24        A.   I don't know.  I never kept a record of that.

25        Q.   Okay.  Is Mr. Lesic camera shy?

Page 9491

 1        A.   Not at all.

 2        Q.   And other than -- we've seen some photographs here as well, how

 3     often were photographs taken?

 4        A.   I presume whenever it was necessary.

 5        Q.   Were you doing any videotaping or taking any photographs

 6     yourself, or was it others in your group?

 7        A.   I never took any photographs at all.  Because I wasn't able to

 8     handle the camera physically.

 9        Q.   And that's because, as I understand, you had loss of a hand

10     earlier in life; is that fair?

11        A.   Yes, true.

12        Q.   If I can take your mind now, sir, to July 1995.  Could you tell

13     me if you travelled to the Republika Srpska or Serbia in July 1995?

14        A.   Yes, we did.

15        Q.   When you say "we did," can you tell me who all was on that trip?

16        A.   Well, on trip with me was Mrs. Ksenija Zarubin and

17     Mr. Branko Zarubin, and Mr. Milan Lesic, and myself.

18        Q.   You said trip with you, were there others that didn't travel with

19     you?

20        A.   Yeah, there was Mr. Rakanovic brothers, Ranko and Ilija.

21        Q.   Can you just spell, you've already spelled for us, I think Ranko.

22     Ilija, can you spell that for us?

23        A.   I-l-i-j-a.

24        Q.   Okay.  And what association, if any, did Mr. and Mrs. Zarubin and

25     the two Rakanovic brothers have to the humanitarian organisation we've

Page 9492

 1     been talking about?

 2        A.   Mr. Zarubin, fairly wealthy guy, and they were donating money,

 3     and we delivered a scanner to VMA.  It was in the name of Mrs. Zarubin,

 4     she was a nurse in her profession.

 5        Q.   Okay.  You are giving us quite a bit of information; I'm going to

 6     come back to that in a moment.  I just have a couple of questions.  First

 7     of all, these people who were accompanying you, where did these people,

 8     not currently reside, but at the time what country were they residing?

 9        A.   Canada.

10        Q.   And in terms of the ethnicity of these people that you've

11     mentioned, what would their ethnicity be?

12        A.   Serbian.

13        Q.   Okay.  And what was the -- you've mentioned here something about

14     a scanner being delivered to the VMA.  First of all, what is the VMA?

15        A.   It was army hospital in Belgrade.

16        Q.   Okay.  And was it the full scanner that you were delivering?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And when we are talking about a scanner, we are talking about

19     some kind of, I take it, medical device?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   How did you know that the VMA needed a scanner?

22        A.   General Mladic faxed to Mr. Lesic the number of the item and when

23     we -- when he got it, he called me and told me what he had, and then we

24     were looking to buy it.

25        Q.   Do you have any recollection of approximately how much this part

Page 9493

 1     cost?

 2        A.   I believe we paid something around $46.000.

 3        Q.   That's Canadian dollars?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And how did you -- sorry, you purchased it then in Canada?

 6        A.   Yes, in Mississauga.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'm not going to make you spell Mississauga for the

 8     record.  I'll tell the reporter later how it's spelled.

 9             Did -- I take it from your initial answer about how you were

10     travelling, did you travel in two groups then, two separate groups of

11     people?

12        A.   Four of us that I mentioned travelled together.  Mr. and

13     Mrs. Zarubin and Mr. Lesic and myself.  We travelled together to

14     Bulgaria, Sofia; and Belgrade.

15        Q.   So Bulgaria and then on to Belgrade?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Why was it that you went into Bulgaria first?

18        A.   That was the only flight that was available that we can fly

19     closer to Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall the approximate date that you flew over?

21        A.   Approximate, yeah, probably around 15th or 14th, something like

22     that.

23        Q.   Okay.  And the Rakanovics, at what point did you meet up with

24     them?

25        A.   We met them in Belgrade, I think was 16th.

Page 9494

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to show you a photograph, sir.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  65 ter 9600.02.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Haven't we already seen that?

 4             MS. BOLTON:  I may have the wrong 65 ter number.  If I may just

 5     have a moment, please.  Sorry, I'm dyslexic, I think.  9600.20.

 6        Q.   This photograph, sir, if you look in the bottom right-hand corner

 7     has a date 16/7/95.  Is that a correct date stamp?

 8        A.   You said bottom right corner.  Oh, okay, I see it.  Yeah.

 9     16/7/95, yeah.

10        Q.   Best of your recollection, is that date correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Looking at the -- going again from left to right in the

13     photograph, first there is a gentleman in a blue suit on the far left of

14     the photograph.

15        A.   Yeah.

16        Q.   Who is that?

17        A.   Mr. Ranko Rakanovic.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a gentleman?

19             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a gentleman, the person in the blue suit?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

22             MS. BOLTON:

23        Q.   The person standing next to him with a striped shirt whose face

24     we can't see, are you able to say who that is?

25        A.   No, I'm not.

Page 9495

 1        Q.   Okay.  The person who is removing their coat and wearing a white

 2     shirt, who is that?

 3        A.   I don't see his clear face, but I think it's Mr. Lesic.

 4        Q.   The gentleman seated on the couch next to Mr. -- where Mr. Lesic

 5     is standing?

 6        A.   Branko Zarubin.

 7        Q.   And the woman seated next to him?

 8        A.   Is Mrs. Zarubin.

 9        Q.   And the gentleman closest --

10        A.   But I don't see her face.  It looks like somebody holding a hand.

11     And I don't see her face.  I only see --

12        Q.   I have a print copies of these photos, sir.  If at any point you

13     need to see a better version of them, just let me know.

14        A.   I'm just saying that I am assuming that this is Mrs. Zarubin

15     because, like I say, I don't see her face.

16        Q.   Okay.  And the person that you think is then closest to us in the

17     photo next to Mrs. Zarubin?

18        A.   I cannot identify that person.  I don't know who it is.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MS. BOLTON:  With the Court's permission perhaps I could show the

21     witness an actual print copy of the photograph which is much clearer.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may do so, ma'am, after your opposite number

23     has had a look at it.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Certainly.

25             THE WITNESS:  This is myself.

Page 9496

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Sir, if you could just leave the photograph with the

 2     gentleman.

 3        Q.   Just for the record then, the person you couldn't identify, the

 4     gentleman --

 5        A.   Yeah, now I see the picture.  This is Mrs. Zarubin.

 6        Q.   Okay.  It's Mrs. Zarubin and you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember where this photograph was taken?

 9        A.   In Belgrade.  I believe it was in Hyatt Hotel.

10        Q.   Is that the full name of the hotel?

11        A.   I believe so.

12        Q.   Can you see what the object is on the table in front of

13     Mrs. Zarubin?  Can you identify that?

14        A.   I assume a camera.  Looks like a camera.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MS. BOLTON:  If that photograph, please, could be marked as the

17     next exhibit.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

19     exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

21     Exhibit P2794.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:

24        Q.   You told us that the intended destination for the scanner was an

25     army hospital, the VMA, in Belgrade.  Which army was this hospital

Page 9497

 1     associated with?

 2        A.   Well, that was Yugoslav Army.

 3        Q.   And you've also told us that -- sorry, I don't think I've asked

 4     this before.  Your organisation, was anyone in the Federal Republic of

 5     Yugoslavia by which I mean Serbia or Montenegro, were they eligible to

 6     receive aid from your organisation?

 7        A.   I don't think so, but the Serbian army from Republika Srpska,

 8     most of them, they were treated at the VMI -- VMA.

 9        Q.   All right.  Sir, I'm going to start by showing you some video

10     footage.  And we'll be stopping and starting at different points, and

11     then I'll be asking you some questions, okay.

12             MS. BOLTON:  It's for the record -- sorry, Court's indulgence.

13     The 65 ter number is 9597.  And I'll indicate to assist the Court as well

14     that there is a full transcription of the audio available in B/C/S and

15     English at 65 ter 9597.01, but there are also subtitles that will follow

16     the video as it plays.  Okay.  Hopefully that was clear.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But for what -- for purposes of this clip you are

18     going to play, the 65 ter is 9597, without a point number?

19             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, that's correct.

20             If we could start the tape at the 1 minute mark, and then we'll

21     be stopping it at 1 minute and 6 seconds.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Switch off your microphone if you want to whisper

24     to your --

25             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, thank you.

Page 9498

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   Okay.  That's a very short clip.  Did you recognise the location

 4     of that clip at all?

 5        A.   Could you back the picture, please, because I only see now a

 6     couple of feet.

 7        Q.   No problem.

 8        A.   Somebody's --

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  Let's go back to about -- first, about the

10     1.02 second mark.  1.01.  Okay.

11        Q.   We are now at 1.01.08 seconds.  Do you recognise that location?

12        A.   It looks like it's in Belgrade in the hotel, but I'm not sure.  I

13     cannot be precise on this.

14        Q.   Do you recognise -- we were looking before at a photo and there

15     was somebody with a striped shirt we couldn't identify.  Do you recognise

16     the person with the striped shirt in this photograph?

17        A.   I seen him, but I don't know his name, or I don't know who he

18     was.

19        Q.   Okay.  And how about the gentleman he is speaking with?

20        A.   I believe this is Mr. Zarubin, Branko Zarubin.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MS. BOLTON:  If we could just fast forward a couple of seconds to

23     1.03, let's try.  1.04.

24        Q.   Do you recognise the person on the phone?

25        A.   I don't.  I can't see his face.

Page 9499

 1        Q.   That's fine.  We are going to restart the footage, sir.  And this

 2     next segment is longer.  I'm going to play through the segment once, and

 3     then we'll backtrack, and I'll ask you to make some identification.

 4     Okay?

 5             MS. BOLTON:  So this next segment is starting at approximately

 6     1 minute and 7 seconds, and it's going until -- I believe it's about

 7     13 minutes and 18 seconds.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. BOLTON:

10        Q.   First of all, sir, were you present at the meeting that's

11     captured on the footage we just played?

12        A.   Yes, I was.

13        Q.   I'm going to ask for assistance to go back and identify some

14     people.  If we could go to the 1 minute and 12 second -- well, actually,

15     where we've stopped the video right now, 13 minutes 18.7 seconds, who is

16     the gentleman drinking out of the cup?

17        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

18             MS. BOLTON:  If we could go, please, to the 1 minute and

19     57 second mark, please.  Okay.

20        Q.   The gentleman on the far left at the 1.57 mark with the glasses

21     and the mustache, who is that?

22        A.   That was me.

23        Q.   The gentleman seated next to with you the white shirt and the

24     tie?

25        A.   Ilija Rakanovic.

Page 9500

 1        Q.   The woman in the flowered, either, dress or blouse?

 2        A.   Mrs. Ksenija Zarubin.

 3        Q.   And do you recognise this person on the far right of the photo?

 4        A.   I don't.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  If we could advance to 3 minutes and

 6     46 seconds, please.  Okay.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   The gentleman who has the suit on, on the far left of the photo

 8     looking at General Mladic?

 9        A.   Mr. Milan Lesic.

10        Q.   Do you know the woman on the far side of General Mladic?

11        A.   I don't have a clear picture, but it looks like, what I see,

12     Mrs. Mladic.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Could we just advance a couple of seconds, please.

14        Q.   Does that help you at all, sir?

15        A.   A little bit, but I think that's Mrs. Mladic.

16        Q.   How about the gentleman in the white uniform?

17        A.   I don't know him.

18        Q.   Do you know what his position was?

19        A.   I think he was a doctor from ...

20             MS. BOLTON:  If we could advance to the 6 minute and 9 second

21     mark, please.

22        Q.   I just want to replay a little section of the tape because in the

23     transcript the speaker isn't identified, and I'm hoping you can help me

24     identify who is speaking.

25             MS. BOLTON:  So if we could play from 6.09 to 6.28.

Page 9501

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   We played to the 6.30 mark on the tape.  The person who is

 4     speaking at that juncture is who?

 5        A.   Ranko Rakanovic.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  And if we could advance to the 12 minute and

 7     6 second mark, please.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise this gentleman?

 9        A.   I seen him, but I don't remember his name.

10        Q.   Okay.  You told us that you were present at this meeting.  Can

11     you tell us if the footage accurately or does not accurately reflect what

12     happened in that meeting.

13        A.   I believe this was after we made the delivery of the scanner.

14        Q.   Okay.  Sir, is the footage an accurate representation of what

15     happened at that meeting, or has it been changed in some way?

16        A.   I don't understand the question.

17        Q.   Sorry, does the footage correspond with your memory of what

18     happened with that meeting, or is it different in some way?

19        A.   No, it's just, like I said, we were in the hospital in the -- I

20     believe it's a boardroom or something that looks like it.  I'm not

21     certain of it.  Can you go back maybe that I can see the room a little

22     more clear.

23        Q.   Okay.  We are just advancing backwards slowly.  Can you recognise

24     that room?

25        A.   Yeah, I think this was in -- at the hospital in VMA.

Page 9502

 1        Q.   VMA is VMA in English?

 2        A.   VMA, yeah.

 3        Q.   When General Mladic was speaking, he referred to a tube and a

 4     lamp.

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   What was he talking about?

 7        A.   He was talking about that scanner.

 8        Q.   So the scanner that you brought --

 9        A.   The tube, yeah.  The scanner tube, yeah.

10        Q.   The scanner tube is what you brought?

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   He also made reference to making some arrangements for cars to

13     come to something he referred to as the Intercontinental.  What is the

14     Intercontinental?

15        A.   I believe it's a hotel in Belgrade.

16        Q.   Is that the same or a different hotel than where you were

17     staying?

18        A.   It could be the same.  I could have been mistakenly thought it

19     was Hyatt, maybe it was the intercontinental hotel.

20        Q.   Have you had occasion to over the years to stay at both?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you recall approximately what time of day this meeting in the

23     VMA boardroom was taking place?

24        A.   I believe it was late afternoon.

25        Q.   You said earlier that you thought you arrived on either the 14th

Page 9503

 1     or the 15th of July, 1995.  Did you have any contact with General Mladic

 2     to the best of your recollection on either the 14th or the 15th of July?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And prior to this meeting in the boardroom on the 16th of July,

 5     had you had any contact with him?

 6        A.   I didn't.

 7        Q.   Did General Mladic or anybody else explain what General Mladic

 8     was doing in Belgrade that day?

 9        A.   No, I don't recall that --  did any explanation or reason.

10        Q.   Did he or anyone else indicate how he had spent the first part of

11     the day up until the late afternoon?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Just a couple of questions about some of the things that were

14     said in that segment.  One of the suggestions that General Mladic made --

15             MS. BOLTON:  And to assist my friends, this appears in the

16     English transcript at page 2, lines 31 and following.

17        Q.   Was he made a suggestion that -- I want to quote it correctly.

18     He said:

19             "With all these people who participated in this, you should make

20     a list and then you will come to my place and then I will give you a

21     letter of appreciation, and we will list all the people who took part in

22     this process of acquiring this particular spare part.  They will have my

23     signature which proves that this has been delivered here.  It's all on

24     the camera.  Do we understand each other?"

25             First of all, what did you understand him to mean when he was

Page 9504

 1     talking about my place?

 2        A.   That I wasn't sure.  But I think we met after that at

 3     Crna Rijeka.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And did you, in fact, follow up and go to Crna Rijeka for

 5     that purpose?

 6        A.   Yes, we stopped in Crna Rijeka and when we -- and we went to Pale

 7     from Crna Rijeka.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Rakanovic, when he was making his speech, he made a

 9     reference -- and this is at page 4, lines 20 to 24 of the transcript.  He

10     says:

11             "I don't want to bother you now with the stories how we came

12     here.  We purchased what you wanted us to.  I hope -- no, I don't hope,

13     I'm sure we are going to the same in future as well, if necessary.  I'd

14     -- I would just like to tell you that the members of the Humanitarian

15     Organisation of Republika Srpska send their regards, wishing you all good

16     and safe journey to Gorazde, should it be."

17             Could you tell me what conversation there had been up to that

18     point in time about anyone going to Gorazde?

19        A.   Well, Mr. Rakanovic, he is from Gorazde, and his brother, I

20     think, and they had family just before Gorazde, a little town, I forgot

21     the name of it.  I think he was referring to that, that they were going

22     to Gorazde himself.

23        Q.   So you think he was addressing himself when wishing himself a

24     good and safe journey to Gorazde?

25        A.   Well, he was -- yeah, that I think he was referring that would be

Page 9505

 1     safe passage or that they can get there.

 2        Q.   His actual words are "wishing you all."  And I'm just wondering

 3     who the "you" is.

 4        A.   You mean Mr. Rakanovic says?

 5        Q.   Yes, Mr. Rakanovic says:  "Wishing you all and safe journey to

 6     Gorazde, should it be."

 7        A.   I really don't remember paying that attention that he was

 8     referring to.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And going back to my original question, had there been any

10     discussion of anyone going to Gorazde other than Mr. Rakanovic up to that

11     point in time, that you remember?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   General Mladic indicated -- again this is at page 3 of the

14     transcript at lines, first 6 and 7, he said:

15             "And now you can -- I'm going to see what the Serbs have been

16     doing at Zepa."  And then further down the page at lines 21 to 30 he

17     addresses himself to the doctor and makes the suggestion that these

18     people, it says:

19             "Doctor, I'd like to say one more thing afterwards while you were

20     waiting.  I'd like to ask you people since you are -- they saved a lot of

21     our people, they have been procuring medicine, prosthesis, they have

22     provided assistance to hospital, they have accommodated wounded people,

23     both Milan Lesic and Mr. Zagarac's son," Milan Lesic interrupts and says

24     "Dejan Zagarac" --

25        A.   Dejan Zarubin.

Page 9506

 1        Q.   Zarubin.  Okay, so the transcript should be Zarubin.  Okay.

 2        A.   Zarubin.

 3        Q.   General Mladic continues by saying:

 4             "Our wounded men, to talk with them here, maybe some of them have

 5     relatives here.  After all, we all have relatives here."

 6             What I understood is that General Mladic was suggesting that you

 7     could visit some of the wounded men; is that fair?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you in fact do that?

10        A.   Yes, we did.

11             MS. BOLTON:  If we could return to the tape to the 13 minute and

12     18 second mark.  We have a short second that lasts until approximately

13     15 minutes and 53 seconds that I am going to play for you.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. BOLTON:

16        Q.   The gentleman who was speaking on the phone in the last footage

17     we just watched, who is that?

18        A.   General Ratko Mladic.

19        Q.   Do you recall where he was placing that phone call from?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Can we go back to 14 minutes and 42 seconds for a

22     second, please.

23        Q.   It doesn't move the transcript, so I'll work off of the

24     transcript.  At page 7 of the transcript in the English version at lines

25     -- starting at lines 33, General Mladic said:

Page 9507

 1             "Just send them a cablegram and tell them I will see them there

 2     so that they don't hit me.  Let them pound the NATO.  Fine.  How are the

 3     things up there at Vinko's?  And what about Vinko?"

 4             Do you know who the Vinko was that he was referring to?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   Do you know where he was placing the call to?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Or who was at the other end?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Do you know who taped him on the phone?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that on page 45, line 7,

13     the witness already said that he knows nothing about this phone

14     conversation.  I believe that Ms. Bolton is now trying to elicit more

15     answers from the witness.  She may want to ask him whether he remembers

16     being present there at all, and then it will be clear whether additional

17     questions about this video footage can be asked.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, I need to locate in the transcript his

20     initial answer.  I just need a moment, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure what you mean by initial

22     answer, but I think what Mr. Lukic was referring to is page 45, line 7,

23     Do you recall where he was placing that phone call from?  And he says,

24     No.  Later you asked him, Do you know where he was placing the call to?

25     That's at page 45, line 19.  And he says again, No.

Page 9508

 1             MS. BOLTON:  You have correctly identified the difference in my

 2     questions, Your Honour, and I understood he was saying he didn't know

 3     where General Mladic was standing with the phone, and I then asked a

 4     different question, and he did not say he doesn't know anything about the

 5     call.  I have, however, asked all that nature of questions that I'm going

 6     to ask about the call.  So if I could move on to the next question,

 7     Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure Mr. Lukic's objection has been

 9     answered, if it was an objection.  And neither do I actually remember

10     what the objection was.  Can you articulate your objection again,

11     Mr. Lukic, please.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't want to be leading, but my

13     objection was that I understood the witness as saying that he knows

14     nothing about this video footage.  I think the question should have been

15     asked, does he know anything about this telephone conversation.  If he

16     said no, all the other questions would be irrelevant.  I don't mind if

17     the witness is asked if he had heard about Vinko, but everything further

18     that was asked about this telephone conversation - and again I don't want

19     to be leading - but I understood the witness is saying he knows nothing

20     about this telephone conversation.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, you are telling us two things, Mr. Lukic, and

22     I'm not quite sure which is which.  First you say he said he doesn't know

23     anything about the footage.  Now you are saying he doesn't know anything

24     about -- he should have been asked about the telephone call.  Now you say

25     he doesn't know anything about the telephone call.  Can you point us to

Page 9509

 1     the transcript to what you are saying he said which you are objecting to.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  That's

 3     precisely the reference you gave.  Page 45, the question in line 4 and

 4     the answers up to line 8.  And from these answers, I understood that the

 5     witness doesn't know where this video footage was taken.  And from that,

 6     I inferred that the witness has no knowledge, and I hope this makes my

 7     objection clear.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, it is not clear, sir, because nowhere in

 9     that passage does it refer to his knowledge about the footage.

10             The questions that were put and the question that you referred to

11     when you first stood up was at page 45, line 7:  "Do you know where he

12     was placing that call from?"  He doesn't know where he was placing the

13     call from.  Later:

14             "Do you know where he was placing the call to?"  He doesn't know

15     where the call was placed to.  That has nothing to do with the footage.

16     If you look at this footage right now as it stands on the screen, the

17     next thing is he is being addressed, so he is present there.  He is

18     present during the footage.  "Where were you wounded?"

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm convinced, I withdraw my

20     objection.  It had been my impression based on the previous answer.  No,

21     I'm not going to comment any further because of the witness.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

23             Yes, Madam Bolton.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Just one last passage of this phone call I wanted to ask about

Page 9510

 1     was that at the end of the conversation, and this appears in -- Court's

 2     indulgence.  Page 8 of the English transcript.  General Mladic at about

 3     lines 7 and 8 says -- 7 through 10, sorry, says:

 4             "They are pounding in two stages.  There are wounded as well.

 5     They are at Zepa.  Let us go."

 6             Then an unidentified man says:

 7             "At Zepa.  Is it ready, Stevo?"

 8             And General Mladic responds:

 9             "It is ready, man."

10             I'm just wondering if at that point in time you had been privy to

11     any conversations either with General Mladic or anyone else as to what

12     was happening at Zepa?

13        A.   No, I did not, and I didn't pay any attention to it.  If I didn't

14     see this picture, I wouldn't recall that at all.

15             MS. BOLTON:  If we could continue with the footage, I'm going to

16     show you a segment that lasts from 15 minutes and 53 seconds, to

17     16 minutes and 47 seconds.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   Sir, were you present when that footage was taken?

21        A.   Yes, I was.

22        Q.   And where was that taken?

23        A.   It was in the VMA hospital.

24        Q.   Okay.  Did you speak to any of the patients in the hospital?

25        A.   I did.

Page 9511

 1        Q.   Okay.  And the individuals you spoke with, were they civilians or

 2     soldiers?

 3        A.   They were not in any uniform.  Nobody was in bed in uniform, they

 4     were all in patient's uniform.  But I assume they were soldiers.

 5     Actually, I was looking for my nephew who had been wounded in beginning

 6     of the war.  And I was never able to locate him.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bolton, just so that we synchronise back to

 8     our normal time, do indicate when you are ready to -- when it is

 9     convenient.

10             MS. BOLTON:  I have just one or two more questions on this area

11     and then we'll break.

12        Q.   You indicated you assumed that these were soldiers.  What was it

13     that you either saw or heard that made you assume these were soldiers?

14        A.   Because they were all wounded, and I have discussion also that

15     mostly were soldiers in the hospital.

16        Q.   Okay.  And do you remember the approximate time of day this was?

17        A.   It was in the evening.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MS. BOLTON:  Then this would be a convenient time to break,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll then take a break and come back at half past

22     12.00.  Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Bolton.

Page 9512

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Sir, we are going to continue playing this footage.  We are now

 3     at, I believe, the 16 minute and 48 second mark.  And this next segment

 4     lasts until approximately 21 minutes and 13 seconds.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE WITNESS:  Can you turn this down a little bit, it's too

 7     strong on my ears.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   Unless I missed something, sir, I didn't actually see Mr. Lesic

12     in that footage.  Do you know where Mr. Lesic was?

13        A.   I don't know.  I think he was -- he came later on.

14        Q.   Okay.  Do you know who was operating the camera?

15        A.   No, I don't.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   Do you know where General Mladic was, if he was present at that

19     meeting?

20        A.   No, he was not.

21        Q.   Okay.  And I'm sorry, I should have asked, were you present in

22     that meeting?

23        A.   Yes, I was.

24        Q.   And where was that meeting taking place?

25        A.   In the VMA.  VMA.

Page 9513

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  If we could continue, I'm going to play you

 2     another short segment, sir, starting at 21.13 to 23.30.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   Sir, were you present when this footage was taken?

 6        A.   I believe that I was.  I don't see myself there, but I think I

 7     was.

 8        Q.   There was -- do you know who the individual was or is who was

 9     giving this speech, thanking Mr. Lesic and the other Canadians?

10        A.   They introduce him as a professor or something.

11        Q.   And do you recall if Mr. Lesic was there to receive the thanks or

12     not?

13        A.   Yes, I think I heard him speaking at the back.

14        Q.   And do you recall whether or not General Mladic was present for

15     this part?

16        A.   No, he was not.

17        Q.   Sorry?

18        A.   No, he was not.

19        Q.   Okay.  I've showed you five segments on this tape from -- dated

20     July 16th, 1995.  Are you able to say whether the order in which they

21     appear in the tape is the order in which they happened, or not?

22        A.   Will you repeat the question, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I come back to my objection of

25     earlier.  The witness was not asked whether he was present during the

Page 9514

 1     segment when General Mladic was talking on the phone.  I did not hear

 2     that question from the Prosecutor.  I was expecting Mrs. Bolton to ask if

 3     the witness was present, but if he wasn't present, then he is not able to

 4     answer this one either, whether the chronology is correct.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, could you please help me to understand

 6     your objection.  You start off by saying I come back to my objection of

 7     earlier, now that objection of earlier as I understand it you withdrew.

 8     Now I don't know -- and then you say the witness was not asked whether he

 9     was present during the segment when General Mladic was talking on the

10     phone.  That was in the previous segment, it was not this segment.  Now I

11     did not hear the question from the Prosecutor.  I was expecting

12     Ms. Bolton to ask if the witness was present, but if he wasn't present

13     then he is not able to answer this one either.  But he has just been

14     asked now after being asked about several people, Madam Bolton says, Oh,

15     I should have asked you this question earlier, were you present during

16     this footage?  This is now at page 51 line 16:

17             "Sir, were you present when this footage was taken?"  This very

18     footage we are talking about.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour.  But

20     now Ms. Bolton is asking the witness whether he remembers whether these

21     five segments shown to him are in the correct chronology.  Concerning one

22     of the segments, I know that the witness was not present.  That's the

23     telephone conversation of General Mladic.  That's why I believe this

24     question is not right.  How can the witness know if the chronology is

25     correct when he was not present during one of them?  Concerning four

Page 9515

 1     segments, the witness was able to remember he was present.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, again I understand now why you say you

 3     go back to your previous objection.  During that previous objection,

 4     again we didn't see anywhere where the witness said he was not present.

 5     He said he did not know where the phone was being made from, he did not

 6     know where the phone was being made to.  But he didn't say he was not

 7     present.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But he wasn't even asked whether he

 9     was present.  About the other segments, he was asked, and that's why I

10     withdrew my objection considering it premature.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Now, your problem is that he was not asked

12     if he was present.  Your problem is not that he was not present, so we

13     still don't know whether he was or was not present because he was not

14     asked.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.  That's right.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you cannot then assume that he was not present

17     because he was not asked, but I hear what you say.

18             Madam Bolton, apparently the witness was not asked whether he was

19     present when Mr. Mladic was speaking on the phone.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I can indicate what -- I've got one concern, is

21     that my friend has made a statement that he knows something about this

22     footage, and he has said that now in front of the witness, so I have

23     concerns now about asking the question my friend want me to ask because

24     he has made that statement to him.  But I will go back and ask -- and I

25     can indicate this was something covered in the statement that we've

Page 9516

 1     provided to my friend.

 2        Q.   Sir, the footage where General --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry.  He is on his feet.  We've got to

 4     rule on this objection first before you can ask questions.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In no way, Your Honour, did I want to

 7     lead in any way.  I was trying very hard to avoid it, but I did have to

 8     make my position clear.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much for making your position clear.

10     The nub of the objection, Madam Bolton, is that the witness was not asked

11     if he was present during this footage when Mr. Mladic was talking on the

12     phone, and, therefore, it is not known at this point in time whether or

13     not he was present during that footage.

14             Now, do you have any response to that objection or that statement

15     by the Defence?

16             MS. BOLTON:  My -- I'm happy to go back and ask that question,

17     Your Honour.  I do want to indicate though, that for the record at pages

18     53, lines 8 to 9, that's where my friend's statement occurs that causes

19     me concern in going back and asking that question.  But I will ask it,

20     and then I may need to make reference to the witness's statement.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry to interrupt.  Only

22     now do I see what Madam Bolton is indicating, page 53, line 8.  It must

23     be a misinterpretation because I never said that I knew the witness

24     wasn't present.  We can check the audiotapes, but I'm quite sure I didn't

25     say that.  Maybe I said I know for sure that the witness wasn't asked,

Page 9517

 1     but I understand Madam Bolton's concern now based on her understanding,

 2     but we can check the audiotapes and see if I was correctly interpreted on

 3     page 53, line 8.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We'll accept that you were incorrectly

 5     interpreted.  What then do you propose as a solution, Mr. Lukic, given

 6     your objection and given Madam Bolton's problem about having to put the

 7     question in light of the misinterpretation that was given to your

 8     statement?  How shall we proceed?  Shall she go ahead and ask the

 9     question, or do you think the question should not be asked?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] perhaps because I suppose the witness

11     knows my language very well, one solution would be to ask the witness and

12     ask him to confirm that I really said what I said, although he is

13     listening in English, and another possibility is for the Prosecutor to

14     ask the witness if he remembers being present.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'll take the latter.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I would ask, in light of what has happened,

17     Your Honour, that I be given permission to question the witness about

18     what he told us about his presence at that segment in his information

19     report.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You asked him whether he

21     was present during that session, but -- I am sorry.  If you asked him

22     whether he was present during that footage, it wouldn't resolve your

23     problem?  If you could ask that question first.  Maybe you can go on to

24     other things.

25             MS. BOLTON:  All right.  I'll ask.

Page 9518

 1        Q.   Sir, did you have the opportunity, first of all, to review this

 2     footage during proofing -- or, sorry, during previous meetings with the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor?

 4        A.   I believe we did that yesterday.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And were you present when that phone call that we watched

 6     earlier was made?

 7        A.   I don't remember was I present or not, but I just saw that on the

 8     screen and -- but I don't remember that I was present.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  May I have the Court's permission to refresh the

10     witness's memory from the statement that he gave to the Office of the

11     Prosecutor, the signed statement of September 10th, 2009, on this issue.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may do so.  But before you do so, I just want

13     to ask the witness, if my memory serves me well, sir, at the end of that

14     telephone discussion, I thought that there was a question addressed to

15     you, your wife, and one of the people from Canada as to whether -- as to

16     when you were wounded.  Now, could you have been asked this question if

17     you were absent in that footage?

18             THE WITNESS:  Was I absolute that I was present, or -- is that

19     what the question is?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, the question is: could you have been asked

21     this question when were you wounded if you were not present?

22             THE WITNESS:  I don't remember.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't remember.  Okay.  What did you want to

24     add to, Madam Bolton?  You wanted to refresh the witness's memory.  Go

25     ahead.

Page 9519

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, thank you.

 2        Q.   The timing of the footage in question, sir, was from - brief

 3     indulgence - 13 minutes and approximately 53 seconds.  And I'm going to

 4     suggest, sir, that that footage was played for you when we met in

 5     September at which time at paragraph 5 of your signed statement you

 6     indicated:

 7             "During the September 8th interview I was shown footage, ERN

 8     V000-8440, V000-8440, approximately 1 minute and 6 seconds, to 15 minutes

 9     and 51 seconds taken in the VMA Hospital boardroom on July 16th, 1995.

10     General Ratko Mladic was present along with myself, hospital staff,

11     Ranko Rakanovic, Ilija Rakanovic, Milan Lesic, Branko Zarubin, and

12     Ksenija Zarubin.  I can confirm that this footage is authentic."

13        A.   That footage is what?

14        Q.   Authentic.

15        A.   Could you explain what that means?

16        Q.   Sir, did you ask me to explain -- genuine, authentic, not

17     doctored, an accurate record of what happened.

18        A.   Now, I'm getting kind of confused.  I don't -- I remember that

19     you were showing me this in September.  I thought that this picture I saw

20     first time yesterday.  But I could be that I forgot.  I cannot be sure

21     either way.

22        Q.   You had the opportunity to review your statement before signing

23     it, we've already established that.  Okay.  And the time-period of the

24     footage in question is covered in the paragraph where you say:

25             "I can confirm that the footage is authentic" --

Page 9520

 1        A.   You might --

 2        Q.   Sorry, sir, I'm not done my question.  Does that refresh your

 3     memory as to whether you were present when that phone call was made?

 4        A.   Can you go back with this picture to refresh my memory.

 5        Q.   Certainly.

 6        A.   Please.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Could we go back to the 13 minute and 18 second

 8     mark, please.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just hold it there.  Can you look at that,

11     Mr. Lukic.  Ratko Mladic is speaking:

12             "Mr. Nedo Krayishnik, and also Mrs. Zarubin, when were you

13     wounded?"  Can you see that?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see it on the transcript, but can

15     we play the footage live to see if it --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the video.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it on the video, but

18     I'm following the B/C/S.  Can we continue playing.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you continue playing, Madam.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You see, that's the next segment.

22     It's part of the next segment, he is saying these words as they are

23     visiting the patients, I can hear Mr. Mladic, I can hear it in B/C/S.  He

24     is addressing obviously one of the patients saying when are you wounded,

25     and introducing the visitors.  But this is all part of the next clip.

Page 9521

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I'm not able to help.  You understand it

 2     better than I do.  For me it's just one thing, so ...

 3             Madam Bolton, you resolve the problem.

 4             MS. BOLTON:

 5        Q.   Yes, sir, now you've had an opportunity to watch it through

 6     again.  Does that assist you in refreshing your memory as to whether --

 7     and you've also heard me read back that you previously confirmed that the

 8     footage was authentic.  Do either of those things assist you in

 9     remembering today whether you were present or not?

10        A.   Was I present when Ratko Mladic was on the telephone?  Is that

11     what the question is?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   I think I was asked this question before, but I cannot recall was

14     I there or not.

15        Q.   Today you can't recall.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   I may say that before, but, like I said, going to this picture

19     because I don't even see myself there or hear any of the -- my friend

20     that they were with me in there, when he was on the telephone.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Brief indulgence.

22        Q.   A couple of things.  First, I take it, can you identify the head

23     that's visible at the bottom of the photo?

24        A.   No, I can't.

25        Q.   This video, you'd indicated that videos were taken for the

Page 9522

 1     purpose of proving to people in Canada that donations had been made where

 2     promised; correct?

 3        A.   The previous when we were sitting and talking, is that what you

 4     are referring to?

 5        Q.   Well, I asked you how you made -- how you ensured that people

 6     knew that the money went where you promised, and you said that you made

 7     video records; correct?

 8        A.   Right, yes.

 9        Q.   This tape that I've played you so far, and it's not finished yet,

10     did you ever have an opportunity other than with the Office of the

11     Prosecutor to view this tape?

12        A.   I don't recall if I did.

13        Q.   Can I refresh your memory on this issue, sir.  You signed a

14     proofing note from our conversation of 31st October, 2009, sir?

15        A.   Mm-hmm.

16        Q.   And in that note, sir, you indicated that with respect to the

17     entire video - we've only played part of it so far - that Mr. Lesic

18     showed the entire video to the board of directors of the humanitarian

19     organisation in Canada after they returned in 1995.  Does that refresh

20     your memory as to whether you've seen this before?

21        A.   I remember we had this discussion, you and I, and I did made a

22     statement that when we came back that we were showing either boards or

23     sometime when we were fundraising dinner or whatever.  But I don't

24     specifically refer to the telephone conversation with General Mladic.

25     What I was referring was in general when we made a delivery, that we --

Page 9523

 1     Mr. Lesic was taking a photograph, a video, that he can show when we get

 2     back who did we made the delivered, and proof that we delivered it as we

 3     were instructed.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And when you were -- when Mr. Lesic was playing

 5     this video back in Canada to the people there, were you present?

 6             THE WITNESS:  At some of them, yes.  Some of them -- I don't know

 7     who was he showing all the time.  I probably saw some of them and --

 8     because I know that was our agreement and promise to the people.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   But you acknowledge, sir, that you signed a statement two days

12     ago saying you believed that Mr. Lesic showed the entire video to the

13     board of directors of the humanitarian organisation in Canada after we

14     returned in 1995?

15        A.   I did say that and that's what I said again just in last

16     statement, that we made a promise that we will bring them videos to show

17     them every time we come back, return home.

18        Q.   Okay.  I think we have exhausted this topic, sir.  We have your

19     evidence today, and we have your evidence from your previous statements,

20     so let me ask you this:  The four segments that you are sure you are were

21     present for on July 16th, 1995, at the VMA hospital that I've shown you

22     today, do you recall whether they are on the tape in chronological order

23     or not?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   You don't know.

Page 9524

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3        A.   I think you asked me that question yesterday as well, and I have

 4     no way of knowing it because it never was in my possession.

 5        Q.   Well, you were there, though?

 6        A.   I was there, but, like I said, on many occasion, but I don't know

 7     was this -- showed or was he showing it without me or with me, I'm not

 8     sure.

 9        Q.   Maybe I'm confusing you, sir.  What I'm asking is, based on your

10     memory of how that day transpired, what you did that day at the VMA, are

11     the segments that I've shown you today in order?  We started with the

12     boardroom with General Mladic talking about -- starting with his kidney

13     stones.  Then we moved from there to the visit -- I'm skipping

14     General Mladic on the phone.  Then we move from there to the hospital

15     wounded.  Then we had the meeting with the doctor in the boardroom where

16     he was talking about the scanner.  And then we had the footage of the box

17     on the table and the professor thanking you.  So those four segments, do

18     you recall if they were -- if they are in the proper order on the tape?

19        A.   I don't know.  Like I said I wasn't handling -- I don't know.  I

20     have no way for the order or not.

21        Q.   No, on your memory?

22        A.   In my memory, a lot of these things are -- if I didn't see the

23     picture, I wouldn't remember for sure.  But this picture made a

24     refreshment of my memory on some of it, but I have no way of knowing it,

25     were they in order or not.

Page 9525

 1        Q.   You can't remember bottom line?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  If we can continue then.  I think we were at the

 5     23 minute and 30 second mark.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where are we going to now?

 7             MS. BOLTON:  This is quite a long segment.  This is 48 minute and

 8     43 second mark.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   Sorry, sir, I've just paused for a second at 26 minutes and 4 --

12     point 4 seconds.  Do you recognise the gentleman with the glasses in the

13     image?

14        A.   Myself.

15        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell me where this meeting took place?

16        A.   I believe it's in Crna Rijeka.

17             MS. BOLTON:  If we could continue, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would like to know the gentleman in the floral

19     shirt who was speaking.

20             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know who the gentleman is who was speaking

22     earlier?  I see his shirt is appearing just next to you there?

23             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Ranko Rakanovic.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MS. BOLTON:

Page 9526

 1        Q.   Sorry just before we continue, sir, we had seen footage from July

 2     16th, and this date stamp is now indicating July 17th, 1995.  To the best

 3     of your recollection, is that correct?

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  If we can continue, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. BOLTON:

 9        Q.   Sir, the previous footage we had been watching on the tape was

10     dated July 16th, and you told us that was in Belgrade.  And you've told

11     us that this footage dated July 17th was in Crna Rijeka.  Can you tell us

12     on what date you travelled from Belgrade to Crna Rijeka?

13        A.   I believe we came there at the 17th.

14        Q.   How did you get from Belgrade to Crna Rijeka?

15        A.   By cars.

16        Q.   We've talked earlier about who was on this trip from Canada.  Did

17     all of the Canadians make the trip down to Crna Rijeka, or did some stay

18     behind?

19        A.   I think that group, we all came to Crna Rijeka.

20        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall how many cars you travelled in?

21        A.   I think two cars.

22        Q.   Okay.  And do you know who arranged the transport for you, or do

23     you recall?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25        Q.   Were there any military personnel with you?

Page 9527

 1        A.   I don't think so.  I don't remember there was any military

 2     personnel with us.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Could I have Exhibit P2400 displayed, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, what do you want to do with

 5     this tape?

 6             MS. BOLTON:  There is additional footage still to be played,

 7     Your Honour.  My intention was to seek it to be admitted as an exhibit

 8     after all of the footage has been played.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Now you want P --

10             MS. BOLTON:  P2400.  And, Mr. Usher, can you assist

11     Mr. Krayishnik with the pen.

12             THE WITNESS:  I have a pen.

13             MS. BOLTON:  No, it's an electronic pen.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

15             MS. BOLTON:  I'm just waiting for Exhibit P2400.  Can we scroll

16     down a little bit.  Thank you.  And can you make it a little bit bigger.

17     Okay.

18        Q.   Are you able to see, sir, or identify for us by circling the

19     location of Han Pijesak.

20        A.   Han Pijesak is here.

21        Q.   Okay.  And how about -- and so for the record you've drawn a red

22     circle next to the words Han Pijesak.  How about Crna Rijeka?

23        A.   Crna Rijeka would be somewhere in here, in this area.

24        Q.   So could you put for that second mark that you've made, can you

25     turn that into a CR?

Page 9528

 1        A.   CR?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Can I wipe it?  I made a mess.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  Mr. Usher, could you assist.

 5        Q.   You are not the first witness that struggled with this pen,

 6     Mr. Krayishnik.  Yes.  Could you put just a dot next to where Crna Rijeka

 7     is.  Okay.  And we've lost the area you originally circled for

 8     Han Pijesak.  Could you recircle that?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And what is the distance between these places?

11        A.   I would be guessing probably a couple kilometres.  Maybe less.

12        Q.   All right.  The building that you've indicated this footage was

13     taken in you said was at Crna Rijeka.  What else -- that was some kind of

14     a boardroom.  What other rooms were in that building?

15        A.   Well, there was offices, and there was a kitchen and there was a

16     dining room.

17        Q.   Whose offices?

18        A.   The military offices.

19        Q.   Where did General Mladic have his office?

20        A.   Somewhere in there.  I don't know.  I haven't been in his office.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MS. BOLTON:  If we could scroll up the page a little bit, please.

23     Okay.

24        Q.   We can't see any -- can you just describe for us where

25     approximately Belgrade would be.  Would it be visible on this map if it

Page 9529

 1     were marked?

 2        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think it's visible on this map.

 3     Somewhere over here maybe.

 4        Q.   Somewhere over where you've made another dot.  Could --

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   Is that --

 7        A.   Or maybe up here or somewhere here.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop you.  Can we erase those two dots.  And

 9     what I am going to do is we'll get a different map up for you to mark

10     more accurately where -- approximately where Belgrade is.

11             MS. BOLTON:  Okay.  If I could tender this map into evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P2400 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

13     given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2795, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MS. BOLTON:  And if we could bring up a clean version of P2400,

17     please.  Could we zoom out a little bit then.  Okay, could you go back

18     one level of zooming.  Thank you.  And can you scroll down a little bit,

19     please.  A little bit further.  Just a little bit further.  Okay.

20        Q.   Would the approximate location of Belgrade be visible on the map

21     as it now appears in front of you?

22        A.   This is the route somewhere I think, that's the road that the --

23     comes to -- down to Vlasenica and Han Pijesak.

24        Q.   Sorry.  I don't think we heard anything you said there, sir.  I

25     was just asking you to mark where approximately Belgrade is.

Page 9530

 1        A.   Like I said, I made a dot up here.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So could you put B there.

 3        A.   Sorry.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And could you tell me then, if you recall, the route that

 5     you took from Belgrade to Crna Rijeka on the 17th of July, 1995?

 6        A.   Yesterday you had a better map.  Like this would be my guessing,

 7     but I do remember that we went through Zvornik and Vlasenica to

 8     Han Pijesak.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  It's very hard to read what is written on the map

10     because it's so small now.  I have -- I have a suggestion for the

11     Trial Chamber, which is I do -- the map I showed the witness yesterday is

12     the same map, but it's in print form and, therefore, actually easy to

13     read.  Wondering if I can show him that map, otherwise we are going to

14     keep, I think, producing maps so I can zoom in.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are going to show him that map, and are we

16     going to see it?

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

19             Mr. Lukic?

20             MS. BOLTON:  I can show it to my friend first, if I might.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, he has got to see it, definitely, before you

22     can show it to the witness.

23             MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]

24             MS. BOLTON:  Could it be shown to Justice Picard and

25     Justice Moloto.  Judges Picard and Judge Moloto.  Okay.

Page 9531

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I could suggest one thing that

 2     could perhaps assist all the parties, and I'm looking at the clock as

 3     well.  A moment ago Madam Bolton asked the witness to show Belgrade as

 4     well.  I think it would be useful to avoid confusion, and it would be,

 5     indeed, confusion if we put Belgrade on the Drina.  We could perhaps show

 6     him a map where both Belgrade this part of the territory feature.  We

 7     don't want to confuse anyone in the courtroom.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I have no difficulty with that, and my friend has no

 9     difficulty.  So I will not seek to tender this map that he has marked.  I

10     see it as time, I think, to adjourn.  And my friend and I will perhaps

11     will try to work out -- or locate another map that shows the location of

12     Belgrade.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you propose for the way forward?

14             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you propose by the way forth, that we

16     adjourn now?

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, is this not the time that we usually adjourn?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it is the time.  We will do it when it is

19     convenient for you to do so.

20             MS. BOLTON:  That is what I am suggesting.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             And we stand adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

23             May I just say to you, Mr. Krayishnik, that you -- now you are on

24     the witness-stand, you may not discuss the case with anybody, not even

25     with Madam Bolton or anybody from the OTP in particular, but nobody else.

Page 9532

 1             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take it you come back

 3     tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.  Court adjourned.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

 7                           November 2009, at 9.00 a.m.