1 Tuesday, 3 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we have the
13 appearances for the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.
14 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honour, Counsel, everyone in the
15 courtroom. Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton, and Carmela Javier for the
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to all the parties in the proceedings. Novak Lukic, Tina Drolec
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 Good morning, Mr Krayishnik. Just to remind you, sir, that
24 you're still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your
25 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, good morning to you.
4 WITNESS: NED KRAYISHNIK [Resumed]
5 MS. BOLTON: Good morning, Your Honour.
6 Examination by Ms. Bolton: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krayishnik, how are you?
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I'm all tangled up. One moment. There we are.
10 Mr. Krayishnik, I read over the transcript of the conversation we
11 had yesterday, and I just had a few kind of housekeeping questions I
12 wanted to ask you about before we continue our conversation from
13 yesterday. At page 9.490 of the transcript, I asked you a question about
14 the mechanism you had for proving to people in Canada that you had
15 delivered the aid as promised, and your response was:
16 "Yes. It was video-taped, camera. Mostly Mr. Lesic had."
17 Did Mr. Lesic own a video camera?
18 A. Yes, he did.
19 Q. Okay. When we ended yesterday's session, you may remember that
20 we were talking about -- I had just shown you some footage from the
21 17th of July, 1995, that you identified as being in Crna Rijeka, and I
22 asked you the question - and this was at page 9526 of yesterday's
23 transcript - if you recall to arrange the transport for you, and you said
24 that you didn't remember. And I'm just going to try to refresh your
25 memory on that point.
1 We started yesterday's session with a video recording of
2 General Mladic in the hospital boardroom on the 16th of July. Do you
3 recall that footage, sir?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Okay. And I've told you I have a transcript from that footage,
6 and I just wish to refer you to part of what he said during that session.
7 MS. BOLTON: And for the assistance of the court and my friends,
8 this appears at page 2 of that transcript, which is 65 ter 9597.01. And
9 at the bottom of the page, around line 31 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Bolton. You haven't given us
11 9597.01. You have given us 9597.
12 MS. BOLTON: I believe, Your Honour, that yesterday we were
13 talking about the fact that there was a transcript that corresponded with
14 the video, and we were using the video. My friend has the transcript and
15 it's available, and I'll be seeking to tender it into evidence. It's
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. I remember you referring to 9597.01
19 MS. BOLTON: Oh, you would like --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I specifically asked you -- and that was after
21 you referred to 9597, and I specifically asked you what are you dealing
22 with now? Are you dealing with 9597, or are you dealing with 9597.1?
23 You said you were dealing with 9597. And 9597 went from 1 minute to
24 1.1 -- 1.6 minutes, and it went right up to 48.43.
25 MS. BOLTON: Okay. To make things clearer then, perhaps we could
1 display 9597.01, which is the transcript which is of the video that we
2 watched yesterday.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
4 MS. BOLTON: So that everybody can --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: .1 is the transcript.
6 MS. BOLTON: .01 is the transcript that corresponds with the
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Which we haven't seen so far.
9 MS. BOLTON: No, you haven't seen it, Your Honour.
10 Q. Alright, so looking at the English version you have before you in
11 9597.01, page 2, and at the bottom of the page you'll see there's some
12 text that starts around line 31. General Mladic was saying:
13 "With all these people who participated in this. You should
14 make a list and then you will come to my place and then I will give you a
15 letter of appreciation, and we will list all the people who took part in
16 this process of requiring this particular spare part; they will have my
17 signature ..."
18 If we could turn the page, please. And if we could scroll up to
19 the top of the next page. It then says:
20 "... which proves that this has been delivered here. It's all
21 on the camera. Do we understand each other?"
22 And then --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, the English has --
24 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Thank you.
25 Q. And then we're on page -- I think we're still on page 3, are we
2 MS. BOLTON: Could we scroll down to the bottom of the page,
3 please. Yes.
4 Q. And now at the bottom of page 3 in the English version we have
5 General Mladic saying:
6 "This spare part will arrive. I'll take care of that. In the
7 morning the car will be waiting for you at the intercontinental. We will
8 solve the problem. I'll be waiting for you there as well."
9 Does that assist you at all in recalling who arranged for the
10 cars to come and pick you up?
11 A. I don't know who arranged it. As you already said that he said
12 that he's going to arrange. So I wasn't paying attention who would bring
13 the vehicle or whatever.
14 Q. Okay, so you're not sure then.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MS. BOLTON: I've finished with that document for the moment.
18 Q. We left off yesterday talking about the location of Crna Rijeka
19 and Han Pijesak, and you had assisted us by drawing those on a map. And
20 today I just want to show you a map to assist you in locating Belgrade
21 relative to Han Pijesak.
22 MS. BOLTON: And so if I could have Exhibit P00187, please.
23 And I'm going to ask the Registrar to zoom in to the area in the
24 upper right-hand corner of the map, if he could, and we still want to be
25 able to see a little bit farther down on the map. Okay.
1 Q. Can you see Belgrade
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Okay. And I don't -- I don't know that it's necessary to have
4 you circle it. It's pretty apparent. Can you also see on that map
5 Han Pijesak?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Okay. You're having trouble locating it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. If it would assist you, sir, if you look over where the
10 writing is "Drina S.0. 3."
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 Q. Okay. Can you see it in that vicinity, sir?
13 A. It's kind of -- the picture is not very clear.
14 Q. Okay. Can we zoom in on the area of Drina S.0. 3 for the
15 gentleman. And if not I have a paper -- a blow-up I can show you, sir,
16 if that's too hard to see. Can you see it now, sir?
17 A. Han Pijesak, yes, I do. Yeah.
18 Q. Okay. And if we could then zoom back out to the original image
19 we were looking at there showing Belgrade
20 Do you recall, sir, when you were travelling in these cars to --
21 on the 17th of July, 1995, from Belgrade to Han Pijesak, do you recall
22 what route you took?
23 A. No, I don't. I -- I assume that we did a thing like we always
24 did, and I remember we did cross the Vlasenica, and -- and went up to the
1 Q. Okay. First of all, where did you -- you said you assumed you
2 took the same route you always took. Do you recall where you always
3 crossed over from the FRY into the Republika Srpska?
4 A. Usually to Bijeljina.
5 Q. Usually through?
6 A. Bijeljina.
7 Q. Bijeljina.
8 A. Mm-hmm.
9 Q. Okay. Can we --
10 MS. BOLTON: Can I file this map as an exhibit, please, and I'd
11 like to go back to Exhibit P2400.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ma'am, I thought you said this was P187.
13 MS. BOLTON: This is P187, and I wish to switch to a map that has
14 greater detail.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say can I file this map as an exhibit,
16 what do you mean?
17 MS. BOLTON: Can -- we've shown the witness this map so he could
18 orientate himself as to where Belgrade
19 I'd like to -- if we could make a photo of this blow-up, what we're
20 showing him now, what's on the screen right now, that's what I'd like to
21 file. So that the record's clear what he's been shown.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that there are no markings on it, and this
23 is already in evidence. This is the problem. The whole map is -- or do
24 you want just this part?
25 MS. BOLTON: I just want this screen, just so it's clear what we
1 were showing him.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. P187 is admitted into evidence. May it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir, that becomes Exhibit P2796. Thank you.
5 MS. BOLTON: And if I could have P2400, please.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned --
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MS. BOLTON:
9 Q. Okay. Sir, can you locate, or can you see on this map the road
10 that you think you took from Bijeljina?
11 A. I'm going to need a pen.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I believe we come this way --
14 Q. [Overlapping speakers]... Okay, we're going to -- sorry,
15 Mr. Krayishnik, I don't mean to interrupt. We're just going to get the
16 usher to help you with the pen that actually works on that screen.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that Ms. Bolton is
19 leading the witness too much, because he said a minute ago that he
20 doesn't know which route they had taken, that he thinks that they had
21 taken the usual route. Now Ms. Bolton is eliciting something from the
22 witness, and the witness replied that he isn't sure whether on that
23 occasion he went by that road. And I think that this map don't show
24 Bijeljina. The -- my learned friend is insisting on this map probably
25 because she wants to corroborate her case, but this witness has nothing
1 to do with that. These red dots, as we know, show the locations of mass
2 executions, but the witness is more familiar and more comfortable with
3 the map that shows Bijeljina and Belgrade
4 I think that in this way the witness is being led too much to say
5 something about which he is not certain.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
7 MS. BOLTON: Well, first of all, the wording of my question was,
8 Can you locate or see on this map the road you think that you took. So
9 that was consistent with what the witness says, which is he thinks he
10 took the route they always take. So I was not putting words into his
12 And secondly, until my friend mentioned it, I don't think that
13 the witness was aware of what the red dots meant. He's now pointed out
14 to him. I'm certainly not relying on the map for that purpose. This
15 happens to be a map that has the greatest detail of this area, and I'm
16 asking the witness to indicate what route he took. I'm a little
17 concerned that some of these objections keep being made in the presence
18 of the witness, so he keeps now being told information that he wasn't
19 privy to previously. And if there's going to be any more objections or
20 discussions of this nature, I'd ask that my friend have the witness step
21 out of the courtroom before he makes that kind of objection.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem, Madam Bolton, with your question is
23 that you say can you locate or can you see on this map the road you think
24 that you took from Bijeljina. There is no Bijeljina on the map. This is
25 the point.
1 MS. BOLTON: The fact that Bijeljina itself isn't on the map
2 doesn't mean that the road that leads out of Bijeljina isn't on the map.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but then --
4 MS. BOLTON: And the witness was about to show with the
5 electronic pen the road leading out of Bijeljina, at least the part
6 that's visible.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he will show us from where Bijeljina is on the
8 map, because he's got to start from Bijeljina.
9 MS. BOLTON: Well, I'm going to ask him where Bijeljina is and
10 then to --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That was not the question. You asked -- the
12 question asked was to show the road.
13 MS. BOLTON: Well, firstly, I wanted to see if the road was
14 actually on the map. Then I was going to ask him to say where relative
15 in map does show Bijeljina, but where would be Bijeljina be would
16 approximately, and then mark the route.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are standing up, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to suggest anything.
19 The map itself has a legend as to what the red dots are, and the OTP are
20 showing this to the witness.
21 I still believe that it is much better for the witness to use the
22 other map that he had seen. He was much more comfortable with it. And
23 the witness said himself yesterday that he was much more comfortable with
24 the map that was shown to him previously than this one. Obviously during
25 the proofing the OTP showed him a different map. It was probably the
1 usual kind of map that we all know.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know what map they showed him. Perhaps
3 you know it. I don't.
4 I think, Madam Bolton, you're either going to have to change your
5 question and ask him to first show approximately where he thinks
6 Bijeljina is, or you're going to show him a map with just Bijeljina on
8 MS. BOLTON: That's fine. Thank you, Your Honour. Let's start,
9 then, so there's no confusion by going back to the map we were just using
10 that was just entered as Exhibit P2796.
11 Q. Is that large enough for you to read, sir, or clear enough for
12 you to read?
13 A. Barely. I can barely read Zvornik, and I'm not even sure if it
14 says Zvornik or not, which is down here.
15 Q. Yes. I see where you're referring to. I'll see if the print
16 copy I have is any better, sir.
17 MS. BOLTON: I wonder if I could show the print copy, my friend.
18 It's a little bit clearer, I think, than the copy on the screen. That
19 may or may not assist the witness.
20 Q. On that print -- colour print copy, sir, are you able to find
22 A. I believe it's here, but also, and that's what I think, it here.
23 Q. Okay. You have a regular -- okay. Now having located it on the
24 colour map, can you circle it on -- with the electronic pen on the map
25 that's before us. Oops, they've moved it.
1 A. Yes. Are you going to put it back? Right here. I believe
2 that's it. No, it's not either. Did I miss it.
3 MS. BOLTON:
4 Q. Do you want to erase that, sir?
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may help.
6 Wouldn't it be best given the fact that the witness has a hard
7 copy in front of him on the ELMO, why doesn't he mark on the hard copy,
8 because obviously he's more comfortable with it.
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. Okay, is it something you can find on the hard copy, sir?
11 A. Let me look at it. I'm not very good at it because I'm not that
12 familiar with this geography. I need assistance here. I cannot locate
14 Q. Sir, if it will assist you --
15 A. I know we did come through Zvornik.
16 Q. Yes, can --
17 A. I know we went through Vlasenica.
18 Q. Can you locate Janja on the map, sir? Can you see that? And I
19 should maybe spell that for you because sometimes my pronunciations
20 aren't great.
21 A. No, you pronounce it good, Janja.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. Janja, I'm looking for it now.
24 Q. If it assists, it's north of Zvornik, sir.
25 A. Mm-hmm. Sorry.
1 Q. Sir, you're looking north of Zvornik, sir?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. You see the border?
4 A. The Drina is the border.
5 Q. Yes. You see the Drina? If you follow the Drina north ...
6 A. Yes. Kozluk.
7 Q. Do you see Janja? Next to the word -- basically opposite the
8 word "Semberija."
9 A. Zvornik, I don't see. I see Kozluk. I see --
10 Q. Okay. Do you see the word -- big black word "Semberija"?
11 A. Yes, I got it. Okay.
12 Q. Okay.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is it Ms. Bolton testifying now?
15 Because this way she's forcing the witness too much. He even started
16 mentioning some places, and he said that he isn't comfortable with the
17 map. I -- it seems to me that this is too leading.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mrs. Bolton.
19 MS. BOLTON: The witness indicated that he crossed over at
20 Bijeljina. He has indicated that he passed through Zvornik. The only
21 difficulty he is having is locating those on the map.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, and --
23 MS. BOLTON: Which is --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the objection is you are now taking over from
25 the witness in trying to locate Bijeljina for him. And I think --
1 MS. BOLTON: But this is not -- this is -- we're dealing with
2 something that is not an issue in dispute. The map of Yugoslavia isn't
3 in dispute in these proceedings, so to assist the witness who is asked
4 for assistance in locating something on a map, this isn't the case where
5 we're asking him to draw something on his own. We're just helping him to
6 read an existing map.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Actually, ma'am, if I may just ask, to what extent
8 does the map help if the witness has told us that he crossed through
9 Bijeljina? He's told us that. Do we still have to see Bijeljina?
10 MS. BOLTON: The only reason I was having him locate -- or trying
11 to have him locate Bijeljina was because when I had asked him about the
12 other map that didn't show Bijeljina, you'd wanted us to indicate where
13 it was.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, yeah.
15 MS. BOLTON: And so --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I thought he would look at the map and see
17 that, "This is where we crossed." Now he doesn't even see the place, and
18 you show him all Janja, Semberija, north, right --
19 MS. BOLTON: That's --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the objection is that actually you are now in
21 the process of locating Bijeljina and not the witness. So -- and the
22 basis of the objection is you're swapping places with the witness.
23 MS. BOLTON: That's fine, Your Honour. I'll go back to the other
24 map which we were dealing with because he's now mentioned passing through
25 Zvornik and so forth, and that is visible on the other map.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: All I'm saying is --
2 MS. BOLTON: I'm happy to move on, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. So, sir, if we could then go back to the other map that we were
6 dealing with, which was 2400.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] What do you want to do
8 with this one, Madam Bolton?
9 MS. BOLTON: Since the a witness wasn't able to identify anything
10 on the map, Your Honour, I don't wish to tender --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] He's just made a
12 marking at a place south-west of Sid.
13 MS. BOLTON: I'd have to look at the transcript for a moment
14 there, Your Honour.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: He made a marking, a circle there. If you look at
17 that red border across -- in the middle of the word "Srijem" or whatever
18 that is. Just south-west of Sid, he made that circle there which he
19 first said was Bijeljina. I'm not saying tender it. I just want to know
20 what you want to do with it.
21 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, Your Honour, I don't wish to tender it.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MS. BOLTON:
24 Q. Okay. Sorry, sir. I'm now oriented again.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. All right, sir. You had mentioned earlier that you recall
2 passing through Zvornik. Are you able to show us the route you took
3 between Zvornik and Han Pijesak using that -- either the electronic pen
4 on the screen, if you could.
5 MS. BOLTON: And could we just focus in a little bit closer to
6 area between Zvornik and Han Pijesak.
7 THE WITNESS: This map on the screen is unreadable, and the map
8 that I have in front of me I can identify it easier.
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. Okay. I have a print copy -- I want us all to be working on the
11 same map, sir. I have a print copy of the map that's on the screen, and
12 I'd like to provide to you, have you work off of it then. And we can
13 then place it on the ELMO. So you can use your regular pen, sir, instead
14 of the electronic pen on this map.
15 A. Thank you, Madam Bolton.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please place it on the ELMO, please,
18 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Now -- now we can see it. Can you bring the
19 picture out a little bit further, or is that how ELMO displays it? Can
20 you zoom out any further than that, or is that -- I don't know what the
21 limits of the ELMO are. Okay. Stop, please, and if we can just
22 please -- I'd like Zvornik to be at the top of the screen. That's good
23 there. Thank you.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, can you mark the route you think you took on the
25 17th July 1995, this being the route you usually took from Zvornik to
1 Han Pijesak? Oh, no, sir. You're going to use the paper copy with your
2 regular pen.
3 MS. BOLTON: And the witness may need assistance holding the
4 paper down. Thank you very much.
5 THE WITNESS: I took the route. Did you see -- did you see where
6 I went with the pen?
7 MS. BOLTON:
8 Q. I saw where you went with the pen, sir, but you haven't made any
9 marks with your pen.
10 A. No.
11 Q. And you need to mark all the way to Han Pijesak from Zvornik on
12 the route you took.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Okay. That's not showing up very well. The Registrar has a
15 marker he's going to give you. Sorry. We have all this technology, sir,
16 and give me a paper and pen any day.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Okay. And from Vlasenica.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is admitted into evidence. May it please be
23 given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document becomes
25 Exhibit P2797.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MS. BOLTON: Okay. I'm finished with that document. It's now
3 been marked as an exhibit.
4 Q. Okay, sir. I want to go back and just ask you some questions
5 about the contents of the recording that we were watching at the end of
6 the day yesterday. So I'm going to replay a portion of the recording
7 from July 17th, 1995, in the Han Pijesak boardroom, and then I'll have
8 some questions for you. So we're going to start the recording this time
9 at 25 minutes and 15 seconds.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's 9597.
11 MS. BOLTON: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. It is.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. Okay. I'm stopping it at 25 minutes and 45 seconds. What
15 General Mladic has just said there is:
16 "You've come at the moment when our army is engaged in heavy
17 fights around Zepa, and I hope that in the course of the next day the
18 area of Zepa will be solved in the same way as the area of Srebrenica."
19 Can you tell us, do you recall when you first heard of the
20 fighting around Srebrenica or the outcome at Srebrenica?
21 A. Would you repeat the question, please.
22 Q. Certainly. General Mladic was talking about the fact that they
23 were engaged in heavy fights around Zepa and that he hopes that in the
24 course of the next day that Zepa would be solved in the same way as the
25 area of Srebrenica. And I'd like to know when you had first heard
1 mention of the area of Srebrenica having been solved.
2 A. I don't recall this conversation in detail what he's saying in
3 describing it now. He was discussing that -- that they're fighting in
4 the area and -- and as you said -- you heard what he said. I don't know
5 what you want me to say.
6 Q. Was this the first mention you had heard of Srebrenica on that
7 trip in July 1995 of the fact that Srebrenica had been solved?
8 A. Yes. That was the first time I heard.
9 Q. Who did you hear that from?
10 A. I heard from General Mladic when we were in that boardroom.
11 Q. Was anyone else discussing that topic on either -- on July 17th,
13 A. It might have been, but I -- I think it was in -- in the picnic
14 area that -- I think through the discussion, and I cannot specify exactly
15 who said it or -- because to me that wasn't -- to me, it didn't matter
16 any -- mean anything.
17 Q. You mentioned you think there was discussion at the picnic area.
18 And what date was that discussion?
19 A. I believe that was on the 17th or the 18th. I'm not sure. I
20 cannot remember that precisely.
21 Q. Did you hear General Mladic discuss Srebrenica on more than one
23 A. He might have, but I don't know if I was paying attention to it.
24 Probably did, but as I said, I cannot recall how many time -- I don't
25 think I was counting how many time was mentioning it.
1 Q. Anyone other than General Mladic discussing Srebrenica on --
2 during this trip?
3 A. I don't recall it.
4 Q. I'd like to refresh your memory from the statement that you
5 provided, the signed statement you provided on September 10th, 2009, at
6 paragraph 12, where you said:
7 "On either the 16th or the 17th of July, I learned that the VRS
8 had liberated Srebrenica. I learned about the victory from
9 General Mladic. His soldiers were also talking about it."
10 Does that now refresh your memory as to whether other people were
11 discussing it as well?
12 A. Well, that what I was referring when I said that was the
13 discussion in the -- when we were in the picnic area. That's what I was
14 referring to.
15 Q. Okay. I'm going to continue the tape, sir, a little farther
16 along, and then I'll have some more questions for you. So we're
17 restarting at 25:45.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. BOLTON:
20 Q. Okay. Sir, I'm stopping the recording at 27 minutes and
21 19.4 seconds. There General Mladic indicates that he's thanking you for
22 helping us solve our problems with Srebrenica, and to "congratulate you
23 and us on the liberation of the Serbian Srebrenica."
24 What problems did you understand the Bosnian Serb army had been
25 having with Srebrenica?
1 A. What problems?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I don't know what he was referring to, but I -- I did mention
4 that once in interview -- your interview with me that they had heavy
5 losses around the Srebrenica, Serbian losses, civilians and -- and
6 previously from the Muslims from Srebrenica, and I believe he's referring
7 to that, since Srebrenica is now liberated, that they will not be having
8 intrusion or whatever. This is, like I said, I -- I am assuming. I'm
9 not sure what he meant when he said that.
10 Q. First of all, you indicated that there were intrusions, and they
11 had been having problems with intrusions. What do you mean by that?
12 A. I mean that the Muslims were heavily located in Srebrenica, and
13 like I said, they -- most of the Serbs around that area, which is
14 Kravica, I heard of a place, and Bratunac and in that area, that -- and
15 they were travelling back and forth from Srebrenica to Tuzla.
16 Q. Did this group of intruders have a name?
17 A. I don't know their name. I've never heard their name. Nobody
19 Q. Later?
20 A. I did heard that there was -- their commander was Naser Oric.
21 Q. Okay. And who did you hear about Naser Oric and his -- his group
22 of intruders?
23 A. I believe I heard it from General Mladic and -- and I don't know
24 who else. But everybody, I believe, knew that he was in charge of that
1 Q. When did you have that discussion with General Mladic about
2 Naser Oric?
3 A. I did not have an individual discussion with him, but I think it
4 was his briefing in -- in -- in the room. Either was it outside or
5 inside, I don't know. Was a recorder or not, I'm not sure.
6 Q. On which date, sir?
7 A. I don't know. Was it 17 or 18, I'm not sure.
8 Q. Okay. And he -- you'd indicated that you understood there had
9 been Serbian losses. Were you given any idea of the number of Serbians
10 who had been killed by Naser Oric's group?
11 A. I got -- I heard it was between 3.000 and 4.000 Serbs in the area
12 was killed by the -- Oric and his -- I don't know what you -- army or
14 Q. Thanks, sir. I'm going to play you another portion of this video
15 that we've been talking about. This is again a portion that I played for
16 you yesterday. It starts at 38 minutes and 41 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. Do you get any sense, sir, from either what a General Mladic said
20 on July 17th or what General Gvero said on July 17th as to the relative
21 importance of the victory at Srebrenica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was it? What was your sense?
24 A. Well, you heard same as I did. It says that he's appealing to
25 the Serbian unity and importance of this victory that they accomplished.
1 Q. Yes. And sorry, my question, sir, was what was your
2 understanding of the relative importance? How important was this
4 A. It was important because, like I said before, they had heavy
5 losses of civilian population in that area from the Muslim stationed in
7 Q. General Gvero said in his speech that the morale of the army at
8 that moment was exceptional. How was the morale at that moment based on
9 your observations of General Mladic?
10 A. I didn't see anything usual or different.
11 Q. We wouldn't know what his morale is usually so you have to --
12 A. How would I know?
13 Q. Sorry, you said you didn't see any usual or different, then I'll
14 ask the question differently. What was his mood on July 17, 1995?
15 A. Same as always [indiscernible]. He was always pleasant and nice.
16 Q. You had told us that he had just had an important victory at
17 Srebrenica. Did he have any -- appear to have any reaction to that?
18 A. He didn't show any -- he didn't express to me that I'd see any
20 Q. Okay. We're going to continue the tape, then, sir, at the
21 48 minute and 43 second mark. This is basically where we left off
22 yesterday at the end of the footage that we've been reviewing today. And
23 this next segment runs from 48 minutes 43 seconds, to 51 minutes and
24 38 seconds.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MS. BOLTON:
2 Q. Okay, sir. I'm pausing the tape at 48 minutes and 51 seconds.
3 And there's some objects that General Mladic is handling. Can you tell
4 us what those objects are.
5 A. I believe some car parts. I think oil filter and stuff like
7 Q. Okay. If we could continue, please.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. BOLTON:
10 Q. Sorry, sir, could you just identify again the name of the
11 gentlemen who's speaking.
12 A. Can I --
13 Q. Sorry, at 50 minutes and 43 seconds.
14 A. Mr. Branko Zarubin.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. BOLTON:
18 Q. Okay, sir. Were you present during this meeting?
19 A. I'm not sure. I probably was, but I'm not sure.
20 Q. Could we backtrack, please, a few seconds, I think to about the
21 35-second mark or so. Keep going. There we are. Sorry. Okay, so
22 you're -- I'm showing an image at 51.33, and you recognise yourself?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay, and did this take place as indicated in the date,
25 July 18th, 1995
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where was this?
3 A. In Crna Rijeka.
4 Q. Okay. Is this a different room than you were in for the footage
5 the previous night or the same room?
6 A. I believe the same room. I don't know whether the same room or
8 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of the time of day when the
9 car parts and the medication and the money was given to General Mladic?
10 A. No, I don't remember.
11 Q. The footage we saw, we were watching previously, this footage
12 July 17th. You told us it was at Crna Rijeka. And you've told us this
13 footage is at Crna Rijeka. Where did you spend the night of the 17th to
14 the 18th?
15 A. I believe we spent in Crna Rijeka.
16 Q. When you spent -- sorry, sir.
17 A. I'm not sure. I cannot remember where we spent the night.
18 Q. Okay. Were there ever occasions when you spent the night at
19 Crna Rijeka?
20 A. I believe I did spend a couple times in Crna Rijeka, nights.
21 Q. When you spent the night at Crna Rijeka, what kind of
22 accommodation would you be in?
23 A. It was ordinary rooms.
24 Q. In what kind of building?
25 A. It's in a -- it's in a kind of in the mountain, building, put in.
1 And I remember one time and I spend the night in a bunker. There was an
2 underground tunnel that they had, and I spend that, but that was, I
3 think, one time in -- it was the wintertime or something.
4 Q. Okay, sir. I have some photographs I'd like to show you.
5 MS. BOLTON: If I could have -- we're going to come back to this
6 tape again, so I'm not seeking to enter it into evidence yet. If we
7 could have 65 ter 9600.21, please.
8 Brief indulgence.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are indulged.
10 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, could I have 65 ter 9000.25 --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter?
12 MS. BOLTON: 9000.25. Sorry, I thought I said 9600.25.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, you didn't.
14 MS. BOLTON: Sorry.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You had said 9600.21, and then you said 9000.25.
16 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry. I meant 9600.25.
17 Okay. Could you zoom out again, please. Thank you.
18 Q. Again, sir, I have print copies of those photographs if you would
19 prefer to see a better copy. You see the building in the background,
20 there's some writing on it?
21 A. Yeah, I do see that.
22 Q. Do you recognise that building?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Where is that building?
25 A. In Crna Rijeka.
1 Q. Okay. Looking at the right-hand corner of this photo, there's a
2 date stamp 18 July 1995
3 A. I see it down on the bottom, yeah.
4 Q. Is that the date this photo was taken, to the best of your
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. Okay. And can you assist us in identifying from left to right in
8 the photo the people seated at the picnic table?
9 A. General Gvero, Ilija Rakanovic, Ned Krayishnik, Ksenija Zarubin.
10 Q. Okay. And the object in front of Mrs. Zarubin on the table, can
11 you make that out?
12 A. I believe that was her camera.
13 Q. Okay. What kind of camera?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. And the red object on the table?
16 A. Looks like a telephone.
17 Q. And how about the white object on the table?
18 A. I don't know what it is.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. BOLTON: Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,
21 please, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
23 given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes
25 Exhibit P2798.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MS. BOLTON: Could I please have 65 ter 9600.22. Okay.
3 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, sir?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Do you --
6 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, if we could zoom in to the bottom
7 right-hand corner of this photograph. It's very difficult to read in
8 electronic form. If we could zoom back out, please.
9 Q. Do you recall on what date this photograph was taken?
10 A. I believe it was the 18th.
11 Q. Okay. Could we have you identify, please, from left to right,
12 the people in this photograph.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before do you that, can you tell us, that's 18th
14 of what month of what year do you think it is?
15 THE WITNESS: 18th of July, 1995.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Yes, madam.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. If you could identify, please, the people from left to right in
20 that photo, just the people that you can -- that are on the far side of
21 the table.
22 A. Branko Zarubin, General Ratko Mladic, and General
23 Momcilo Perisic, and Ned Krayishnik.
24 MS. BOLTON: Okay. That could be tendered as the next exhibit,
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence.
2 May it please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours this document becomes
4 Exhibit P2799. Thank you.
5 MS. BOLTON: If I could please have 9600.21, please.
6 Q. There's a date stamp on the right corner of this photo, sir,
7 18/7/95. To the best of your recollection, is that date correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Starting on the left side of the photo could you identify the
10 three people seated on the left side of the table?
11 A. Ranko Rakanovic, Ned Krayishnik, and I believe Ksenija Zarubin.
12 Q. And on the right side starting from the gentlemen in the white
13 shirt who is closest to us.
14 A. Milan Lesic; general, I believe, I can't see it face -- I would
15 be guessing, General Ratko Mladic and Branko Zarubin.
16 Q. Okay. With respect to the gentleman whose face you're having
17 trouble seeing, I'd like to show you a print photograph, as opposed to
18 the computerised image.
19 MS. BOLTON: If that could be shown to my friend, please. And if
20 it could be shown to the Chamber, please.
21 Now that you have that better image of that photograph, sir, does
22 it assist you in identifying the gentleman in between Mr. Lesic and
23 General Mladic?
24 A. I will be guessing, but it looks like General Momcilo Perisic.
25 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be so
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
4 Exhibit P2800. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MS. BOLTON: I see it is 10.15, Your Honour. Would you like to
7 take the recess?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's convenient.
9 MS. BOLTON: Please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's convenient to you, we'll take a break and
11 come back at quarter to. Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
15 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, the photos we've discussed so far, do you recall
17 approximately what time of day they were taken?
18 A. Was that question addressed to me?
19 Q. Yes, sir. Sorry.
20 A. Yes. I was fixing my earphones.
21 Q. No problem. My question was approximately what time of day, the
22 photos that we've looked at so far, were they taken?
23 A. I don't recall it.
24 Q. Do you recall whether the photos were taken before or after the
25 footage we watched where the car parts and medication and so forth was
1 given to General Mladic?
2 A. I don't recall it exactly. Could it be before, I -- like I said,
3 I really don't know. I cannot remember.
4 Q. Okay. Do you recall -- first of all, had you ever melt -- you've
5 identified one of the people in the photographs as General Perisic. Had
6 you ever met General Perisic prior to the 18th of July, 1995?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Let me continue with some other photos, sir.
9 MS. BOLTON: If could I have 65 ter 9600.23.
10 Q. Okay. And, sir, if we could zoom in on the bottom right-hand
11 corner, can you read the date stamp on that, or is it too illegible?
12 A. No, I cannot read it.
13 Q. Okay. Do you recall the date of this photo, sir?
14 A. I believe it was July 18, 1995
15 Q. Okay. And again if you could assist us in identifying from left
16 to right the people seated at the table.
17 A. Branko Zarubin, General Ratko Mladic, and General Momcilo
18 Perisic, and Ned Krayishnik.
19 Q. Were you able to recall at all what -- appear General Mladic was
20 addressing Mr. Zarubin. Do you know what they were talking about?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. General -- you appear to be looking at General Perisic. Were you
23 having any kind of conversation with him?
24 A. Looks like I was listening that he was talking, but I don't
25 recall what he was -- what were we talked about.
1 Q. You don't recall what you talked about.
2 A. Say that again.
3 Q. Sorry. You don't recall what you talked about?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recall anything you talked about General Perisic with that
6 day -- about that day?
7 A. I believe I made the remark that I was surprised that Muslims
8 made vote to separate from Serbia
9 way that he was surprised too.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I don't understand that answer.
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you want me to repeat it?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
13 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I think I made a remark that I was
14 surprised that the Muslims decided to split from former Yugoslavia, like
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I think General Perisic mentioned that we
16 all kind of was surprised in that way.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MS. BOLTON:
19 Q. And again, can you identify what that white object is on the
21 A. No, I didn't -- I can't.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. BOLTON: Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
25 exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document becomes
2 Exhibit P2801. Thank you.
3 MS. BOLTON: If I could next have 65 ter 9600.23. That was it?
4 Sorry, .24. Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, again, it's not a great reproduction of the actual photo.
6 Can you read --
7 MS. BOLTON: Can we zoom in on the bottom right-hand corner of
8 this photo.
9 Q. Are you able to read the date stamp from this electronic version
10 of the photo, sir?
11 A. Appears to be 18/7/95
12 Q. Okay, if we could zoom back out, please. And again if you could
13 help us identifying the -- first, the person on the left that's cut off
14 in the photo, who was that?
15 A. I believe it was Branko Zarubin sitting and talking to
16 General Ratko Mladic.
17 Q. Okay, and next to General Mladic is?
18 A. General Momcilo Perisic.
19 Q. And the gentleman in the brightly-coloured shirt?
20 A. Ranko Rakanovic.
21 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked the next exhibit, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is so marked. May it please be given an
23 exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
25 Exhibit P2802. Thank you.
1 MS. BOLTON: If we could please have 65 ter 9600.25.
2 Q. Okay. Sir, we've already introduced that into evidence.
3 MS. BOLTON: Could I have .26, please.
4 Sir, again this photograph is a bit blurry. I'm going to ask
5 that you be shown the print version.
6 If I could just show that to my friend, and if it could be shown
7 to the Trial Chamber as well, please.
8 Q. Sir, and on what date was that photo taken, sir?
9 A. I don't seat the date, but I believe it was on the 18th of July,
11 Q. Is it the same or different day than the other photos that we've
12 been discussing?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sorry, was it the same or different day than the photos we've
15 already discussed?
16 A. I believe it's the same. I don't know. I don't see the date. I
17 can't remember was the same day or -- I believe it was the same day.
18 Q. Okay. Was there more than one occasion that you sat down with
19 General Perisic at the picnic area in Han Pijesak?
20 A. Might have been. I don't -- by the picture, yes.
21 Q. Okay. So do you recall another time, then, that you had -- you
22 sat in the picnic area with General Momcilo Perisic at Han Pijesak?
23 A. According to these pictures, yes.
24 Q. Okay. When was that other occasion, then, that you sat at the
25 picnic area with Momcilo Perisic at Han Pijesak?
1 A. Would you please repeat the question again.
2 Q. You'd indicated there may have been another time that you sat at
3 the picnic area with Momcilo Perisic at Han Pijesak, and my question is,
4 what date would that have been?
5 A. I believe it was the same day.
6 Q. So you were at the picnic area with him twice on the same day; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Could be, yeah. Looks -- by the picture, yes.
9 Q. Okay. What is it about the picture that makes you think there
10 was --
11 A. That makes me think that I was sitting on different side of a
13 Q. Okay. Was there any time gap? I mean, are we talking about you
14 having been at the tables, going away, coming back to the tables? Or are
15 we talking about you continuously being at the tables but just changing
17 A. I believe we were continuing to be at the table, just changing
18 seats while standing up or ...
19 Q. Okay. So just again the building that we see to the left of the
20 photo, what is that building?
21 A. I believe that's the bidding that goes into -- I don't see the
22 whole building. It looks like -- and it might be the guard, little
23 shadow or whatever.
24 Q. Okay. And can you go on the left side of the photo starting with
25 the person who is closest to us and identify the people seated on the
1 left side of the picnic table.
2 A. From my left is General Milan Gvero, and Ranko Rakanovic and
3 Ned Krayishnik. And the gentleman taking the photograph,
4 Ilija Rakanovic.
5 Q. Okay, before you move any further, is there somebody seated in
6 between yourself and Mr. Rakanovic?
7 A. Between myself and Mr. Rakanovic, no, I don't see anybody.
8 Q. What is that dark object to your left?
9 A. I don't see any dark object on my left. Let me see down -- on
10 this photo on the table. I don't see any dark object on the table to my
12 Q. Not on the table, just to your left?
13 A. Oh, Mrs. Zarubin sitting.
14 Q. Okay, there appears to be somebody bent over. Do you know who
15 that is?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Okay. And the people then on the right side of the table seated?
18 A. I see General Ratko Mladic and General Momcilo Perisic.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's marked. May it please be given an exhibit
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
24 Exhibit P2803. Thank you.
25 MS. BOLTON: If we could please have 9600.27.
1 Q. Again, sir, I think this is similar to a photo we've already
2 seen, but could you identify from left to right the people visible in
3 this photo.
4 A. Branko Zarubin, General Ratko Mladic, and General
5 Momcilo Perisic, and Ned Krayishnik.
6 Q. Okay. And again the date of this photo, sir?
7 A. Sometime during the day. I don't know what time.
8 Q. Sir, what day are we talking about, sir?
9 A. I believe it was the 18th.
10 Q. Of?
11 A. July 18, 1995
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. BOLTON: If we could introduce that as the next exhibit,
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted into evidence. May it please be
16 given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P2804. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. BOLTON: If we could 9600.28, please.
20 Q. Sir, can you read the date stamp to the right of this photo?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. 18 --
23 A. July 18th. July 1995.
24 Q. Okay. And, sir, there is a person who has his back to the
25 camera. Do you recognise that individual?
1 A. Looks Ranko Rakanovic.
2 Q. And the four people going from left to right who are facing the
4 A. Branko Zarubin, General Ratko Mladic, Milan Lesic, and General
5 Momcilo Perisic.
6 Q. Okay. All the photos that we've been discussing, you indicated
7 with respect to some of them they were taken at Crna Rijeka. Is that
8 true of all the ones that we've talked about so far?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If I could have 96 -- 65 ter 9469, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want this one admitted, madam?
12 MS. BOLTON: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, if that could be marked as the
13 next exhibit, please.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
17 Exhibit P2805. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks. You now asked for 9469.
19 MS. BOLTON: Yes, please. And I believe it should be three
20 photos, a series of three photos.
21 Q. Could -- yes. Sir, do you recognise where this photo was taken?
22 A. Yes, at Crna Rijeka.
23 Q. Okay. And the date when this was taken?
24 A. 18th of July, 1995.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, I'm told this photo is under seal.
1 I don't know.
2 MS. BOLTON: Oh. Then if we could go into closed session,
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Oh, P2705.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Admitted from the bar
7 table motion, 2705.
8 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. And is it under seal, Your Honour?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] That's what the
11 Registrar tell us.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm just conferring with my
14 colleague. If I may just have a moment's indulgence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure you may.
16 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the Registrar was saying while you're
18 conferring, mine the microphone.
19 MS. BOLTON: Oh. Thank you.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MS. BOLTON: Then, Your Honour, we should be dealing with these
22 documents in closed session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say these documents, you mean this
24 photograph and the other two that are part of the series?
25 MS. BOLTON: That's correct, Your Honour. These --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed -- private
3 [Private session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. BOLTON: Thank you for the indulgence, Your Honour.
7 Q. Yes, sir. Returning to the photo that's in front of you then.
8 If you could identify the three people who are -- whose faces are visible
9 to the camera?
10 A. From my right, Milan Lesic, General Momcilo Perisic, and General
11 Ratko Mladic.
12 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could see the next photograph, please.
13 It should be part of the same exhibit.
14 I'm not sure why we have black and white versions of these
15 photos, Your Honour.
16 Q. In any event, if you could again identify, sir, the date and
17 location of -- this photograph was taken?
18 A. The date is July 18th, 1995
19 Q. Okay. And people seated from left to right in this photo?
20 A. Branko Zarubin, General Ratko Mladic, Milan Lesic,
21 General Momcilo Perisic.
22 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. And if I could move on to the final
23 photograph in this group.
24 Q. Again, sir, can you identify the time -- or just the location and
25 the date of -- the date of this photograph?
1 A. I don't see the date, but I believe it's 18th of July, 1995. And
2 from left to right, General Ratko Mladic, General Momcilo Perisic, and
3 General Milan Gvero.
4 Q. And the location again, sir?
5 A. Crna Rijeka.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MS. BOLTON: I'm done with those photographs. Thank you. And we
8 could move out of private session then, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. Sir, I just want to go back to the first point in the day --
15 well, first of all, on what date did you first see General Perisic in
16 July 1995?
17 A. July 18th, 1995
18 Q. Where was he when you first saw him?
19 A. I met him outside on the picnic area in Crna Rijeka.
20 Q. And who was he with when you first saw him?
21 A. I don't call -- recall exactly who was he with when I -- when I
22 got there and when I saw him.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you carry on, Mr. Usher, could you
24 please draw the curtain or the blind, as it's called.
25 Thank you so much.
1 Yes, Madam Bolton
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
3 Could I please have ID04-0461. Oh, is it 1D or ID? 1D04-0461.
4 Sorry about that.
5 Q. Sir, I'd just like to refresh your memory. You indicated you
6 weren't able to tell us who General Perisic was with when you first saw
8 MS. BOLTON: If I could have paragraph 16 of both the English and
9 B/C/S versions this statement from October -- from September 10th, 2009
10 I should say it was given on September 8th and signed on September 10th.
11 It's actually paragraph 17, page 4.
12 Q. Paragraph 17, sir, you indicated at that time, September 10th,
13 shortly before noon
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand the Prosecutor may
16 refresh the witness's memory by referring to his statement, but
17 Madam Bolton did not check previously whether the witness remembers the
18 event itself. She just asked one specific question; namely, [In English]
19 [Previous translation continues] ... and who he would been, the first
20 time saw him. [Interpretation] To which the witness answers, he doesn't
21 recall. But she did not continue to ask how he first came into contact
22 with Mr. Perisic. She just refers to the statement of a month ago.
23 I think this is a kind of leading, because the Prosecutor has not
24 ascertained what the witness remembers, if he remembers. In other words,
25 I think it should have been taken step-by-step.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
2 MS. BOLTON: I've asked the witness if he recalled what time of
3 day it was that he met the general, and I also asked him at lines 17 to
4 18 on page 40 of the transcript, who he was with when you first saw him,
5 and he said he didn't recall. I've asked him some specific questions and
6 now I'm seeking to refresh his memory based on the transcript or the
7 statement he previously gave.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It seems as if more than one question was asked,
9 Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I suppose that Madam Prosecutor could
11 have also asked questions about chronology and whether the witness
12 remembers a certain event. In any case, I made my objection. I don't
13 want to complicate any further.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Overruled.
15 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, looking at paragraph 17, you indicated in your signed
17 statement that it was:
18 "Shortly before noon
19 went outside General Mladic was already there with a man he introduced to
20 us as General Momcilo Perisic?"
21 Does that refresh your memory now, sir, as to when and where you
22 first saw General Perisic and who he was with?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. He was with General Ratko Mladic and General Gvero.
1 MS. BOLTON: Okay. I don't -- I may use that document again, but
2 I don't want it to be displayed at this moment.
3 Q. What army did you understand General Perisic to be associated
5 A. Yugoslavian army.
6 Q. And you had indicated you'd visited Han Pijesak before. Had you
7 seen anyone from the Serbian Army there before?
8 A. I don't recall. I don't remember this before.
9 Q. Okay. Did you see General Perisic arrive at Han Pijesak?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] To avoid unclarity, page 43, line 2,
13 it says Serbian Army. I suppose the Prosecutor meant the Army of
15 MS. BOLTON: Yes. I'm sorry about that.
16 Q. I was referring, when I asked you the question, about the
17 Serbian Army. Did you understand, sir, I was asking you about the army
18 from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the VJ?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You indicated you don't know -- or you did not see
21 General Perisic arrive. Did you hear him arrive?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. Did anybody tell you when he'd arrived?
24 A. No, nobody told me that.
25 Q. Do you know how he travelled to Han Pijesak --
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- or sorry, Crna Rijeka?
3 A. No, I don't.
4 Q. Did anybody offer any explanation as to what General Perisic was
5 doing there?
6 A. Nobody did explain anything.
7 Q. When you were seated at the picnic tables, what were you doing?
8 A. I was sitting at a picnic table.
9 Q. What was the group of people doing?
10 A. Group of people are those that I identified in the picture.
11 Q. No, what were people doing as they were seated at the table? I
12 know who was seated at the table.
13 A. We were sitting and talking.
14 Q. Okay. How long were you in, first of all, that day
15 General Mladic's company in total, all of July 18th?
16 A. I cannot recall exact timing. Probably couple hours. I'm
18 Q. And how about General Perisic's company?
19 A. Same time. I'm guessing again. I could not recall the timing
20 because I was not keep any diary of that.
21 Q. Okay. At any point in time we saw that you were seated with
22 General Perisic at the picnic tables, did General Perisic ever absent
23 himself from the tables in your presence? Sorry, that was a confusing
24 question. While you were at the picnics tables, did General Perisic ever
25 get up and leave?
1 A. I don't recall that.
2 Q. How did Generals Perisic and Mladic appear to be getting along?
3 A. Normal, like every -- everybody else in that area. Excuse me.
4 Q. Were there any signs of disagreement between them?
5 A. I didn't see any.
6 Q. You said people were talking. What was the general mood at the
8 A. A normal mood.
9 Q. Okay. What are you -- what do you consider a normal mood?
10 A. The same as we are in this room.
11 Q. Same kind of tone?
12 A. Just talking wasn't in a -- talking whoever you were close to or
13 listening to somebody else and ...
14 Q. Was there any laughter?
15 A. There might have been. I can't recall.
16 Q. Do you recall what was discussed?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. Do you recall any conversation between General Gvero and
19 General Mladic -- Mladic, sorry.
20 A. I don't recall.
21 MS. BOLTON: Could I have document 1D04-0461 again, please. And
22 I'd like -- I think it's page 5.
23 Q. You told us that, The mood at lunch today was normal, and you
24 told us you can't remember the conversation, particularly you can't
25 remember the conversation between Generals Gvero and Mladic.
1 MS. BOLTON: If we could go to paragraph 21, please, of the
2 English and B/C/S -- sorry, Serbian versions of the statement?
3 Q. There it indicates:
4 "We were with Generals Mladic, Perisic, and Gvero at the picnic
5 table for a couple of hours. As I stated in my previous statement,
6 Generals Gvero and Mladic were discussing the liberation of Srebrenica at
7 lunch. They did not spend much time on it. General Perisic was present
8 to hear this conversation. There were no signs of disagreement between
9 the generals. There was a lot of joking around at lunch."
10 Does that refresh your memory, sir, as to the conversation that
11 took place at lunch?
12 A. It was a discussion of the liberation, because the General Mladic
13 addressed it as you saw on the video-tape before, and that was in that
14 same manner.
15 Q. Sir, in the video-tape he'd been expressing -- or indicating that
16 there had been a victory at Srebrenica. Is that what you're referring
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 Q. Can you recall anything else that was being said?
20 A. We heard that yesterday discussion, and I believe it was this
21 morning as well, so you heard the discussion. You want me to repeat what
22 we -- what we heard, or what that part -- I don't understand the
24 Q. Okay. Do you recall what -- you told us that there was a
25 discussion of the liberation. Do you recall what General Perisic's
1 reaction was to that discussion, if any?
2 A. I don't recall it. He -- that he made some discussion about it.
3 Q. Okay. I'm just not a hundred per cent understanding your answer,
4 sir. You said, "I don't recall it. He -- that he made some discussion
5 about it." Are you saying you don't recall what he said, or you don't
6 believe he discussed it?
7 A. I don't recall what he discussed.
8 Q. Did you spend the entire day of the 18th at Han Pijesak?
9 A. I believe we left in afternoon for Pale.
10 Q. And when you say "we left," who left?
11 A. The group of Canadians that was listening, which I meant
12 Mr. Zarubin, and Mrs. Zarubin, Mr. Lesic, and Mr. Ilija Rakanovic, and
13 Ranko Rakanovic, and myself.
14 Q. And how were you travel to Pale?
15 A. In the vehicles.
16 Q. Do you recall who left first, the contingent of Canadians or
17 General Perisic?
18 A. I don't. I think he did -- left before.
19 Q. I'm sorry?
20 A. I think General Perisic left before us.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I'm not sure, but I think.
23 Q. Okay. If I could refresh your memory from paragraph 22 of the
24 statement that's before you where it indicates:
25 "After lunch I left for Pale with the other Canadians. We left
1 before General Perisic."
2 Does that assist you in refreshing your memory, sir?
3 A. Well, you are refreshing, but still, like I said, this is
4 14 years ago. I -- I'm not sure.
5 Q. Okay. Is there any reason why in September you'd sign a
6 statement saying you left before General Perisic and today you wouldn't
7 be sure?
8 A. Well, same thing. At that time, I -- I made the same statement
9 as I said today, and I -- but you wrote it down, and I believe to me that
10 didn't matter that much, was it we left before or he left before.
11 Q. So you're saying that the statement you reviewed and signed and
12 made corrections to before signing doesn't actually reflect what you
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why would you sign it then, sir?
16 A. Because I didn't realise this was of that importance. I made a
17 statement. I was there, and I -- and that I left, and I thought that was
18 the main reason and most important.
19 Q. Okay. You were giving a statement to a representative of the
20 Office of the Prosecutor and a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer. Is
21 it your evidence that you didn't think it was important to be accurate?
22 A. I could not be accurate for that time. I told you even then, and
23 I'm saying the same thing now.
24 Q. Sir, we'll move on from here. Do you recall where General Mladic
25 and Gvero were when you left Han Pijesak?
1 A. I believe they were in Crna Rijeka. I -- I think they were
3 Q. Okay. We're going to go back to the video-tape we've been
4 watching, sir, and we're going to start it at the -- restart it at the
5 51 minute and 53 second mark. And this footage is about 15 minutes long.
6 It goes to 1 minute and -- sorry, 1 hour, 12 minutes, and 27 seconds.
7 And I may -- I may stop once in a while during the footage to ask some
8 questions. Okay.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. BOLTON: I've stopped the tape at 52 minutes and 50 seconds.
11 Q. Can you identify the two gentlemen seated at the table?
12 A. Dr. President Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik.
13 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could continue.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. BOLTON: Okay. Paused again at 53 minutes and 2 seconds.
16 Q. Could you identify the person in the colourful shirt closest to
17 the camera?
18 A. Ranko Rakanovic.
19 Q. And the gentleman next to him with the glasses?
20 A. Ned Krayishnik.
21 Q. You can see the head of somebody next to you. Are you able to
22 recognise who that was?
23 A. I am assuming this was Mrs. Zarubin.
24 Q. Okay. And on the other side of the person you think is
25 Mrs. Zarubin?
1 A. Mr. Zarubin.
2 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could continue, please.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. [Microphone not activated] Sir, do you recognise -- sir, do you
6 recognise the voice of the person who is speaking now?
7 A. Mr. Milan Lesic.
8 Q. And how does the volume of his voice on this tape compare with
9 the volume of the other speakers we've heard so far? Do you need to hear
10 a little bit more?
11 A. I here him.
12 Q. Okay. Sorry, just -- would you -- I'm going to play a little bit
13 more, and could you continue to listen, paying attention to the volume at
14 which he is speaking.
15 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, and for the record, I stopped at 1 hour,
16 6 minutes, and 40 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. BOLTON: If we could pause again.
19 Q. Are you able to comment on how the volume of his voice compares
20 to the other speakers?
21 A. I think he was only closer to the video that his voice was much
22 more clear.
23 Q. Okay. Who was operating the video?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you see -- have you seen Mr. Lesic at all in this video up to
1 this point in time?
2 A. I didn't remember seeing him yet.
3 Q. Okay. Would you pay attention to see if you do?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. BOLTON: If we could continue, please, at 1:06:48.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MS. BOLTON: I've stopped the tape at 1 hour, 10 minutes, and
8 23 seconds.
9 Q. And can you just tell us where the segment that we've just
10 watched, where that was?
11 A. Pale. Excuse me.
12 MS. BOLTON: All right. And I'm just going to ask that we play
13 the next -- the next two minutes of the tape, from -- starting again from
14 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 23 seconds.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MS. BOLTON: Paused at 1 minute -- 1 hour, 10 minutes, and
17 35 seconds.
18 Q. Are we in the same room as we were in for the previous footage or
19 have we changed locations?
20 A. I'm not sure. I believe we are in same room.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. But --
23 Q. We'll play it through to the end, and we'll come back to this
24 issue. I just forgot to ask with the footage that we have been dealing
25 with, with Mr. Krajisnik, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Radovan Karadzic in
1 Pale, the date stamp on the video had said July 18th, 1995. Is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you remember approximately what time of day that meeting
5 took place?
6 A. In the afternoon, I believe.
7 Q. Okay. And how long does it take to drive from Crna Rijeka to
9 A. I never was timing, but I -- roughly would take 45 minutes or one
10 hour, depends.
11 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could continue.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. BOLTON: Okay. Pausing at 1 hour, 10 minutes, 58 seconds.
14 Q. Not the greatest video, but the gentleman on the far right of the
15 photo with the white shirt, who is that?
16 A. Mr. Milan Lesic.
17 Q. Okay. And the gentleman next to him, can you identify him?
18 A. Ranko Rakanovic.
19 Q. And are you able to tell us who the person to his right is?
20 A. Looks like it -- myself, but I'm not sure. I cannot see clear.
21 Q. All right.
22 MS. BOLTON: We'll just continue, please.
23 THE WITNESS: It is not -- it is not.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MS. BOLTON: Pausing again at 1 minute, 11 seconds.
1 Q. You just -- so it's not lost on the record, that person was not
2 you, you said.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MS. BOLTON: 1 hour, 11 minutes, 10 seconds.
6 Q. Do you recognise either of the people seated at the head of the
8 A. No, I don't.
9 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If we could continue.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MS. BOLTON: Okay. And we've stopped the video at 1 hour,
12 12 minutes, and 29 seconds.
13 Q. Could you tell -- or do you remember if you were present during
14 this meeting?
15 A. Looking at this, I don't think I was present at this meeting, and
16 I think this was in -- in Gorazde, little town which I cannot recall,
17 that Mr. Rakanovic brothers and Milan Lesic went, and I believe I went
18 to -- I had a cousin in Pale. I went to visit them, and I don't think I
19 was present with them.
20 Q. Okay. So you parted ways after Pale; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. So this last segment, then, is not something that you had
23 seen or been present for, this last two minutes?
24 A. Yes, you're correct.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MS. BOLTON: I am going to be moving to have this tape introduced
2 into evidence, Your Honour, up until the beginning of that last segment,
3 which is 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 23 seconds.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit -- yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Concerning this entire document, I
6 have an objection just to one segment. I don't object to any other being
7 admitted. That's 13 minutes 18 seconds, up to 15 minutes and 53 seconds.
8 If you remember, that's the telephone call the witness was asked about
9 yesterday. I believe Madam Bolton, in view of the answers given by the
10 witness concerning that part of the video footage, has not established
11 enough link between the witness and that evidence and did not meet the
12 requirements of point 27 of your guidelines.
13 The witness said he had no recollection, and the call made by
14 General Mladic himself is not sufficient, I think, for this to be
15 admitted into evidence. I don't mind this segment being MFI'd and
16 perhaps being introduced through another witness, but I would object to
17 it being admitted through this witness.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
19 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour. Guideline 27 indicates
21 "Where one of the parties seeks the admission of a document
22 through a witness, it must demonstrate to the Trial Chamber the relation
23 between the witness and the document."
24 Obviously we're not dealing with a document here. I think the
25 issue is one of whether you can be satisfied this is authentic. With
1 respect to that, I would suggest that there are -- would I remind you of
2 guideline 31, which -- and Rule 89, that the general rule is that you may
3 admit any relevant evidence that you deem to have probative value, and
4 I'd suggest that there is a presumption in essence in favour of
6 What we are seeking to introduce is a video-tape that we played
7 in continuous form, and the witness has established a relationship to all
8 the segments of the video except the last segment that we're not seeking
9 to tender, and the radio segment. He has, in this case -- the witness
10 has recognised all the footage that came before the radio -- or, sorry,
11 the telephone call, as well as the footage that came afterwards. In
12 addition, there are what I would call circumstantial guarantees of
13 trustworthiness found in the call in the footage itself, in particular
14 what I'm referring to is that the subject matter of the telephone
15 conversation is referenced in the initial conversation that this witness
16 was present for in the boardroom. So what General Mladic says in the
17 boardroom - and we can find this in the transcript of this tape which is
18 65 ter, I think, 9057.01. If I could have that document brought up.
19 Sorry, 9597.01.
20 Could we have page 3, please.
21 You will see there, Your Honours, at lines 6 and 7 that
22 General Mladic indicates:
23 "I'm going to see what the Serbs have been doing at Zepa."
24 This then ties in -- oh, sorry. And he's also, as we've
25 indicated during questioning of this witness -- sorry, if we could then
1 go to page -- the transcript of the portion of the actual call, which we
2 find at page 8. It starts at 7, but I'm interested in page 8.
3 You'll see that there is in fact, discussion in that phone
4 conversation, or he has obtained in that phone conversation some
5 information about Zepa, because then he's talking about how they're
6 pounding in two stages there: "Zepa, Zepa, let's go" -- or, "let us go."
7 So there clearly is a tie between the initial boardroom footage
8 where he says he's going to check on what's happening in Zepa and the
9 subsequent conversation that actually takes place which is one
10 circumstantial guarantee of trustworthiness.
11 The other circumstantial guarantee of trustworthiness is the fact
12 that the footage which a runs continuously on the tape all has -- bears
13 the same date, being the 18th of July. So bearing in mind the standard
14 of admissibility before this Court, we certainly feel that we have met
15 the threshold for admissibility. And any issue my friend has with
16 respect to the fact that the witness wasn't -- or sure if he was present
17 during that part of the conversation is something that goes to the weight
18 and not the admissibility.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly. I did not challenge
21 authenticity nor the right of the Chamber to admit any evidence according
22 to Rule 29. I just invoked your guidelines and said that through this
23 witness who doesn't know anything about it, this document should not be
25 Mrs. Bolton gave up on tendering the last segment when she
1 realised this witness didn't know anything about it. The same principle
2 applies. We cannot introduce through a witness something that the
3 witness knows nothing about according to your own guidelines.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we take a break and come back at half past.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, how much longer are you still going
8 to be with this witness? I'm sorry to have to ask you this question.
9 MS. BOLTON: I anticipate five minutes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you. You may proceed.
11 MS. BOLTON: We had left, Your Honour, with the issue of the --
12 my seeking to tender the video-tape into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I saw the difference between what the
14 witness said about the telephone and what he says about the last part of
15 the tape is that he's certainly sure that he was not there with respect
16 to the last part. But the first part he says he's not -- he doesn't ...
17 Is this a question of weight?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that Ms. Bolton asked the
19 witness yesterday whether he remembered that phone conversation, and I
20 think he answered no, and that's how I interpreted it. If she did not
21 ask him -- and let us create a fair situation here, and why don't we play
22 it this way: If -- I'll try to be fair during my cross-examination, and
23 then you can decide about the objection. I don't want to go into this
24 before in front of the witness. But I didn't understand him to have said
25 that he has any knowledge at all about the document, and that's my
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why can't we go to the record?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the -- it's on page 56
4 of the draft version, line 14. The question at line 16, the reply:
5 [In English] "Were you present when that phone call that we
6 watched earlier was made?"
7 Answer: --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 56 of what?
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Of the provisional version of the --
10 the unrevised version of the transcript. I don't know what the official
11 version is.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yesterday's transcript.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, yesterday's transcript.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 56.
15 MR. LUKIC: That's right. Line 14 is question.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
17 "And were you present when that phone call that we watched
18 earlier was made?"
19 "I don't remember was I present or not, and I just saw that on
20 the screen, but I -- and -- but I don't remember that I was present."
22 Now, he has answered that he doesn't remember a lot of things
23 that he's been asked today about incidents that he -- he knew some parts
24 of. And this is precisely what I'm saying to you, that on the last bit
25 of the tape today that Madam Bolton withdrew from tendering, he says
1 clearly, "I was not there. I'd gone to visit my cousin." And yet many
2 other parts of the tape he's been asked questions, "Do you remember
3 this?" "No, I don't." "Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Perisic
4 the first time?" "No, I don't remember." "Did you see how he came?"
5 "No, I don't."
6 That doesn't invalidate the tape.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But I'm not saying that it
8 invalidates the tape, but if the witness say that he is unfamiliar with
9 something, I believe it isn't sufficient grounds for tendering the
10 document in that way. He doesn't remember. Anything that could
11 establish a link between this witness and a document. He spoke about
12 other things as not remembering them, but the video-tape reminded him.
13 But this segment, I understood him to say that he remembers nothing at
14 all. Then how can a link between the witness and the document be
15 established without the witness even being in the document?
16 I don't want to go into this discussion to deeply, Your Honours,
17 and I know your preference of -- for simple explanations. So I'm simply
18 saying that no link has been established between this part of the video
19 footage and this witness in line with Rule 28 of the guidelines.
20 And about that other segment, he said even more, that he believed
21 the place there to be Gorazde.
22 Sorry, it's guideline 27, to avoid misunderstandings. Yes, it's
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you're standing up, Madam Bolton. I was
25 seeing you, but I was --
1 MS. BOLTON: I don't want to interrupt your train of thought,
2 Your Honour, but there was one argument that I failed to mention before
3 lunch, which was that during cross-examination -- or sorry, during
4 examination of the witness at page 9519, you may recall that I read to
5 him a portion of the signed statement he gave to the Prosecution in
6 September 2009
7 video. So having -- up until Mr. Lukic raised the issue and started
8 saying things in court like, "I know the witness wasn't there," the
9 witness was saying he could authenticate it. So my respectful submission
10 is out-of-court statement is more reliable on this issue that his
11 I-don't-remember-today statement. And again it's the entire video we're
12 seeking to tender, not parsing it up into little clips. It's a
13 continuous video that more than established the relationship between the
14 witness and the video.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you pass me again what is it he authenticated?
16 MS. BOLTON: There is a portion of his written statement where it
17 says as follows:
18 "During the September 8th interview, I was shown footage," and
19 I'm reading from page 9519 of the transcript, ERN --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that yesterday's transcript?
21 MS. BOLTON: It is.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, unfortunately mine is still --
23 MS. BOLTON: Oh, still provisional? Oh, okay. It would be
24 approximately 12 pages from the end of yesterday's transcript. The start
25 of the page would say:
1 "MS. BOLTON: Yes, thank you."
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what the page that says?
3 MS. BOLTON: The top -- well, I suppose it's also possible that
4 my page divisions are different than yours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do have a "Miss Bolton: Yes, sir. Now you have
6 had an opportunity to watch" -- okay. That's not it?
7 MS. BOLTON: No. I think it's -- if you go back two pages from
8 that, Your Honour. Top of the page may say, "Yes, thank you." And
9 around line 7 on my copy it says, "During the September 8 interview."
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
11 MS. BOLTON: Okay. So this was me reading to him from his typed
13 "During the September 8 interview, I was shown footage ERN," and
14 this is the same ERN as the tape we have been dealing with, approximately
15 1 minute and 6 seconds to 15 minutes and 51 seconds. And the footage in
16 question is encompassed in that time period. And he said then: "It was
17 taken in the VMA hospital boardroom on July 16th, 1995." Then he talks
18 about who was present. And then he says at the end: "I can confirm that
19 this footage is authentic." Then in court he was simply saying he
20 couldn't remember he was there or not.
21 So that's a further piece of evidence I'd ask Your Honour to
22 consider in your ruling.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I guess your hands say it all, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I merely wanted to say that I wasn't
25 going to reply, but I do stand by my objection.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Overruled, Mr. Lukic.
2 MS. BOLTON: Could the tape then be given an exhibit number.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please, it may. 9597.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exactly. 65 ter document 9597 will be given
5 Exhibit P2806.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, that's from 1 minute to --
7 THE REGISTRAR: It is from --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1 hour, 10 minutes, 23.
9 MS. BOLTON: Correct. And I would also ask Your Honour that the
10 transcript of that tape which is 9597.01 be admitted into evidence, and
11 I'm just going to locate the start of that last conversation that we're
12 not relying on.
13 I believe if the first 32 pages of that transcript -- wait. Yes.
14 If the first 32 pages were admitted and not pages 33 and 34 in English,
15 that would cover -- oh, no, I'm sorry.
16 I don't think, actually, the transcript includes that last
17 portion of conversation, Your Honour, so I think we could file the
18 transcript in its entirety.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And the transcript is 9597.01. It is
20 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
22 Exhibit P2807. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. Sir, I have just a couple more questions for you. When we were
1 talking yesterday at page 9.489 of the transcript, we were talking about
2 whether you'd had any contact with either politicians or military leaders
3 from the RS outside of the Balkans, and you told us once you had in
4 New York
6 I think the first one is 65 ter 9600.08.
7 Sir, do you recognise the photo that's in front of you?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Were you present when that photo was taken?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. And where was that taken?
12 A. In New York
13 Q. And do you know what Mr. Lesic has in his hands?
14 A. I think he had a -- some photographs.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't the witness first tell us who the people
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes. I'm sorry.
18 Q. The gentleman who has the object in his hand is whom?
19 A. Mr. Milan Lesic.
20 Q. Okay, and the gentleman whose hand he's shaking?
21 A. Dr. President Radovan Karadzic.
22 Q. And who is the other gentleman in the photo?
23 A. Nebojsa Govedarica.
24 Q. Could you spell that, please.
25 A. G-o-v-e-d-a-r-i-c-a.
1 Q. And where is that gentleman from, what country?
2 A. Canada
3 Q. Do you have any recollection of -- of what year this photo was
4 taken in?
5 A. I believe it was 1994.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. But I'm not certain.
8 MS. BOLTON: Okay. If that could be tendered into evidence,
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I challenge the relevance of this
11 exhibit and this part of the evidence concerning the meeting in New York
12 I don't believe that my learned friend has demonstrated that this is in
13 any way relevant to this trial.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
15 MS. BOLTON: The only relevance would be to establishing the
16 nature of the relationship between the witness and leadership of the
17 Republika Srpska.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except that the witness is not in the photo.
19 MS. BOLTON: Yes, but he's indicated he was present when it was
20 taken, Your Honour, in New York
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled. It will be admitted into
22 evidence. Have you asked it to be admitted, yes?
23 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
1 Exhibit P2808.
2 MS. BOLTON: And if I could have 65 ter 9600.06.
3 Q. Do you recognise the three gentlemen in this photo, sir?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And who are they?
6 A. Ned Krayishnik, Dr. President Radovan Karadzic, and Mr. Lesic.
7 Q. Okay, and where was this was photograph taken?
8 A. In New York
9 Q. And do you have any recollection of the year?
10 A. Like I said, I believe it was 1994, but I'm not sure. I don't
11 have any diary on that.
12 Q. And what were you doing in New York?
13 A. We went to -- there was, I believe, a meeting at the UN, and we
14 tried that we were going to be able to attend at UN to observe, and we
15 were not able to, so we met him at the hotel.
16 Q. Okay. Sir. Finally --
17 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as an exhibit, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
21 Exhibit P2809. Thank you.
22 MS. BOLTON: If we could bring back up Exhibit P2803, please.
23 Q. You recall, this photo we discussed earlier, sir. Could you tell
24 me where Mr. Lesic was when this photo was taken?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Okay. We have seen video-tape in these proceedings from events
2 of July 16th, July 17th, some footage from -- of car parts being
3 exchanged on July 18th, and later footage in Pale with Dr. Karadzic and
4 Momcilo Krajisnik. Could you tell me, did anybody video-tape this
5 meeting at the picnic area on July 18th, 1995?
6 A. Well, definitely somebody was, because there's pictures there,
7 and as I see also, Mr. Ilija Rakanovic holding a camera.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was did somebody video-tape, not take
10 THE WITNESS: I believe that there was, but I'm not sure who did
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. Do you have a copy of that video-tape, sir?
14 A. Myself?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know who would?
18 A. If anybody, I don't know. I would be again guessing. And maybe
19 Mr. Lesic, maybe not. I'm not sure.
20 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen the tape of this meeting?
21 A. Not until you showed me.
22 Q. Okay. Sorry, the tape of -- a video-tape of the actual meeting
23 with Momcilo Perisic.
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Okay.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. BOLTON:
3 Q. Two last questions, sir. Without telling anybody who you work
4 for, what is the nature of the work that you do now?
5 A. I am an insurance broker.
6 Q. And in the -- in that position are you required to read
7 documentation like contracts?
8 A. Policies, yes.
9 Q. Okay. I have nothing further. Thank you very much, sir.
10 A. You're very welcome.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krayishnik, good afternoon. I will address
14 you in Serbian, and I leave it to you to choose the language in which you
15 want to reply. If you choose to reply in Serbian, I have two remarks:
16 Please wait a moment after my question for the interpreters to be able to
17 interpret into English. And we'll also have the court usher to change
18 your channel into Serbian, because otherwise you will have another voice
19 in your headphones. But if you want to reply in English, I haven't -- I
20 don't have a problem with that.
21 A. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
22 Q. I can see that you started speaking to me in Serbian, and I
23 suppose that you will continue that way.
24 A. Yes, I will.
25 Q. Now you can no longer hear the English interpretation. You only
1 can hear me in Serbian. That will make communication easier.
2 A. Go ahead.
3 Q. The first interview you had with Ms. Bolton, she asked you that
4 on the 9th of August this year, you said the interview was taped as far
5 as you remember and later transcribed, and you had the chance to read it.
6 Isn't that right?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. The second interview that was made after about a month, took
9 place on the 8th of September, 2009. It's recorded as such, and it --
10 you don't remember whether it was taped too?
11 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was. I'm not certain though,
12 because I remember more easily what happened 15 or 20 years ago than what
13 happened two weeks ago or a month ago.
14 Q. Do you remember that the note about that second interview, as
15 Ms. Bolton reminded you, you signed two days later, on the 10th of
17 A. Yes. She -- she brought it, and I read my statement and
18 signed -- my statements, correction, and I signed.
19 Q. Obviously there are differences in the two interviews, because
20 the first one shows clearly that an entire transcript was made with
21 questions and answers, whereas the second document appears like your
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Please do wait a moment after my question. Did you happen to ask
25 Ms. Bolton whether there is an entire transcript of your second interview
1 with her, with both questions and answers when you signed it or later?
2 A. I think that she brought it and gave -- gave it to me to read at
3 our third meeting.
4 MS. BOLTON: Sorry to interrupt. I do have an objection to
5 raise, but I don't wish to put -- I don't wish the witness to be present
6 when I make the objection.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Krayishnik, do you think you can step out for
8 a short while. It looks like they want to gossip about you. Don't go
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
12 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Sorry about that, Your Honour. My
13 objection is that my friend has to have a good-faith basis for the
14 question that he's asking, and we have disclosed to him the notes of the
15 RCMP officer who was present during the interview where he clearly states
16 that Mr. Krajisnik was given the option of having the interview recorded
17 or are preparing a proofing note at the end, and he declined to have it
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise if that is the case. I
20 tried to read a handwritten note, and believe me, it was very difficult
21 for me to read a handwritten text. But I have no reason to doubt
22 Ms. Bolton's words, so I will not question this any further.
23 I can show this handwritten note. It is very difficult to read.
24 It's like a doctor's handwriting. But, okay, I don't have a problem with
25 your -- with it now after your reply, and I will ask questions that go in
1 a different direction.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to say that you accept the
4 Upheld. You may call the witness. You may call the witness.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Krayishnik, for obliging. Thank
7 you so much.
8 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
10 Q. I have some questions about your background. As far as I
11 understand, you left the former Yugoslavia
12 as it were. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said that your father had been a royalist. For this
15 Trial Chamber to understand it better, you meant to say that he was a
16 supporter of the royal house of Karadjordjevic, and the rule of the
17 Karadjordjevic dynasty and pre-war Yugoslavia
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I also understood that you are an anti-Communist by conviction,
20 if I may say that.
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 Q. From the interview -- interview that you gave to the OTP, I also
23 understood that you are a deeply religious man and a follower of the
24 Orthodox church.
25 A. I do not consider myself deeply religious, but I do think that
1 I'm a faithful man and a Christian.
2 Q. There's something else that follows from your interview, but to
3 avoid any misunderstanding on the point of the Trial Chamber, you are not
4 in any way related to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And you didn't know him before the -- these encounters which you
7 testified about with reference to the year 1992 and the Assembly?
8 A. Correct. Yes, I never met him or knew him until I came to visit
9 in 1992 with humanitarian aid.
10 Q. Your personal desire to help the Serbian people in Bosnia came to
11 life after war broke out, and you didn't give any material or financial
12 aid to the Serbian leadership in Bosnia before the war started in
13 something -- anything like lobbying for anybody to come to power or
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Am I right -- or, rather, let me ask you first. Did you follow
17 the changes in power in Bosnia-Herzegovina when at the first multi-party
18 elections Communist rule was overthrown and the ethnic parties came to
19 power jointly?
20 A. Yes, I did follow, and I was glad that the end of a single party
21 system had come. I consider that system to have been a dictatorial one.
22 Q. In that sense your sympathy was with the SDS, which was a clearly
23 anti-Communist Party which in its programme wanted to detach itself
24 completely from the early traditions of the Communist movement and had
25 much stronger ties with Orthodox Christianity?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Krayishnik, would you please stop for a short
3 while after the question to allow the interpreters to interpret.
4 Can you also do the same, Mr. Lukic. I could hear they are
5 struggling to keep pace.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Tell me, how did you see Slobodan Milosevic and the
10 leadership of the FR Yugoslavia at the time? Did they also want to
11 detach themselves from the old Communist traditions at that time?
12 A. Earlier in the news and in the papers there were reports about a
13 multi-party system to be introduced. That socialist system I didn't
14 consider to be democratic, because that socialism, as it was called in
16 believed in, because there was no democracy. There was no multi-party
17 system. And, to us, communism and socialism were the same thing.
18 Q. So I may conclude that, according to you, Slobodan Milosevic
19 continued that tradition that existed in the Socialist Federal Republic
20 of Yugoslavia
21 Communist Party, and Tito, to strike a comparison between him and
22 Karadzic and the parties in Bosnia
23 A. Yes. I was able to read a book in which he said that he was a
24 convinced Communist, a member of Skoj, and I concluded from that that he
25 was no different than Tito was.
1 Q. And during those changes in 1992, that is 1991, 1992, especially
2 once things started happening in Bosnia, what was your image of the
3 Yugoslav People's Army and later on the Army of Yugoslavia, the Federal
4 Republic of Yugoslavia
5 movement or the Chetnik movement which was closer to the royal family of
7 A. It was too early to make up one's mind at the beginning, but I
8 understood that in those events all Serbs had understood that they had
9 been tricked by communism and that it was -- it was an illusion. And to
10 my mind there was no difference between fascism and communism. I -- it
11 was clear to me that the people had understood that they had been
13 Q. Do you under -- agree with me when I say that Ratko Mladic and
14 the -- the VRS started establishing ever-stronger connections with the
15 old traditions and the army from the First World War and started
16 distancing themselves from the Partisan movement and the Communist
18 A. When saw pictures of Ratko Mladic in the Krajina, I believe it
19 was at Knin, he disappointed me very much because he had taken the
20 Ustasha coat of arms and the cockade, and he said to me -- rather, not to
21 me. Correction, he said that to him it was the same. And I was greatly
22 disappointed, because he had shown that he didn't understand which system
23 had brought us to the situation that we were in. But later as everybody
24 else, I saw that he began to understand that it was all an illusion and
25 that the entire system was based to harm the Serbian people exclusively
1 and to benefit all other peoples in Yugoslavia.
2 Q. Later during those encounters that you had in the course of the
3 years personally, did you observe stronger ties with the church?
4 A. Yes, I did. I knew a man in Canada who personally during the war
5 was with Ratko Mladic's father. They were members of the movement of the
6 Royal Yugoslav Army. It was Draza Mihajlovic's movement. His father was
7 called Nedjo, and he was -- he fought on the side of the Chetniks through
8 the entire war, and he was killed by the partisans. But I saw statements
9 made by Ratko Mladic that his father was a partisan and was killed by
10 Chetniks. And the colleague of his father heard of -- heard that and
11 called me and informed me of that. He said that he couldn't believe that
12 Ratko Mladic were -- didn't know who killed his father and who his father
13 was siding with. He had photographs showing his father, that gentleman
14 whose name was Savo Mandic, and he gave them to me to bring him the
15 photographs and -- which I did. And when he saw them, he started crying.
16 Tears came to his eyes, and he said that it was hard for him to
17 understand how he had lived so long without knowing who his father had --
18 had been siding with and how he died.
19 Q. Thank you. You had the opportunity in Canada to follow the
20 reporting of various media about the goings on in what's usually here
21 called former Yugoslavia
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you will agree with me when I say that the Western media
24 reported about the war that broke out in the former Yugoslavia,
25 especially Bosnia-Herzegovina, on -- on practically a daily basis.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you didn't trust that information. You considered them to be
3 some sort of propaganda, and that's why you wanted to see information
4 that stems from the Serbian side or from RTS by satellite; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then based on the information that you got personally or from
8 your friends or through the Serbian media, you formed an opinion that the
9 Western media were partial and that they favoured the Croatian Muslim
10 sides and the Serbs are to blame for everything; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you also knew in the diaspora that the Croatian and Muslim
13 sides had strong lobbies in those media and that significant funds were
14 invested into creating such an image in the media; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. One of your donations, and when I say "yours" I mean the
17 organisation, was to provide hope to the radio television of the
18 Republika Srpska, for them to be able to acquire technical equipment for
19 spreading news about the real struggle of the Serbian people; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'll pass over to a different topic now. Ms. Bolton didn't ask
23 questions about that, but I may, in the interest of the Defence, ask a
24 few questions about that to hear what you know.
25 As we were able to see, during the period from the end of 1992
1 till the end of 1995, that is almost throughout the entire war, you were
2 able to go to Bosnia
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. From what you were able to see and hear in the media, and I
5 believe that you were interested, you were able to tell that there is a
6 great interest in striking some kind of peace agreement.
7 A. Yes. When we visited, nobody expected the whole thing to last so
8 long. And we emigres were also surprised that this took so long, and
9 we -- we thought that it could all have been shorter and with fewer
11 Q. Do you know that at a certain moment there was this so-called
12 Vance Plan, I believe in 1993, when the Pale leadership refused to accept
13 the plan as proposed, mostly due to the maps, even though Milosevic and
14 Dobrica Cosic and the Greek prime minister all tried to convince the
15 leadership at Pale to accept it? Do you remember that? The media
16 reported about it at length.
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. You probably know that the Pale leadership and the Serbian people
19 of the Republika Srpska refused the plan of the Contact Group in
20 July 1994, and that after that the leadership of the FRY, I believe it
21 was in early August in 1994, put in place sanctions against the
22 Republika Srpska?
23 A. I remember that there was an embargo, but I don't remember any
24 commission that were -- that engaged in negotiations.
25 Q. Yes, but you know that a certain moment -- at a certain moment
1 the Yugoslav authorities imposed sanctions on the Republika Srpska.
2 A. Yes. And we were greatly disappointed, but -- and we thought
3 that it might not be true, but Dr. Srdjan Trifkovic in Chicago, I
4 believe, there was a meeting of some kind. And there he confirmed that
5 it was indeed true, that there was a blockade and sanctions against
6 Republika Srpska imposed by Slobodan Milosevic and that Yugoslavia.
7 Q. In your encounters with the Pale leadership or the leadership of
8 the VRS, now you said that you were greatly disappointed by that. Did
9 you ask whether those sanctions are real, whether the blockade was really
10 in place, and whether they were really suffering from having no
11 communication with Yugoslavia
12 A. Yes. I believe that Dr. Trifkovic was some sort of liaison
13 between the Government of Republika Srpska and the diaspora, and he
14 really convinced that it was real, that it was no fairy tale but it was
15 really so in reality.
16 Q. The questions I've put to you so far were so-called background
17 questions, and now I'm moving on to specific events.
18 You've come here to give evidence about what you remember
19 concerning particular facts. You said a moment ago, and I believe you've
20 mentioned it in your interview - if you need to see your statement we can
21 give you a reference - that you never kept a diaries or notes on your
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. At that time you did not really care about noting down who you
25 met with, what they said about particular things. All you cared about
1 was travelling there and handing over the aid.
2 A. That's true. Those were long trips. We were usually very tired,
3 and I did not pay much attention to some less important things.
4 Q. Let me just make one distinction. Mr. Lesic was the treasurer of
5 your organisation, and he was much more concerned about keeping evidence
6 and recording things, what happened, when. Is that true?
7 A. Right. I don't think he kept notes either, but he did make
8 recordings, as we can see.
9 Q. From these tapes I noticed another thing, and I'll ask for your
10 confirmation. Mr. Lesic seems to be impressed in this footage by -- by
11 all these people he's getting to meet, and he's placing himself in the
12 centre, in the limelight.
13 A. Yes. Mrs. Bolton asked me about it. He is that sort of person.
14 He likes to be in the first row always. I don't think he's
15 ill-intentioned or a bad person because of that.
16 Q. That's not what I meant to say. When Madam Bolton questioned you
17 and when you gave evidence before this Honourable Chamber about these
18 meetings, you remembered all of that mainly on the basis of photographs
19 and video footage, but you don't remember any details.
20 A. That's right. These photographs have helped me the most.
21 MS. BOLTON: Obviously my friend is entitled to lead when he's
22 asking questions of the witness, but he keeps -- he keeps on occasion
23 giving his own observations as well in the questions, and I don't think
24 that's appropriate, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give an example.
1 MS. BOLTON: "From these tapes I noticed another thing ..." this
2 is lines 9 and 10 of page 77. And we also have a lot of compound
3 questions. So I rise just to ask my friend if he could keep his
4 questions one at a time and not include his own observations.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You also take your objections one at a
6 time. Let's deal with them one at a time.
7 "From these tapes I noticed other thing and I'll ask you for your
8 confirmation." And then he goes ahead and asks for his confirmation.
9 Obviously he can only ask him about what he know, what he observes, and
10 either what he perceives through his senses.
11 MS. BOLTON: I did not give, probably, the best example,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Until you give me a better example --
14 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- then we'll strike that one off.
16 The other one you say is asking compound questions. Example?
17 MS. BOLTON: Well, lines 16 to 19 he's put two propositions to
18 him. One is that:
19 "You remembered all of that mainly on the basis of photographs
20 and video footage," and then he puts a second proposition that he doesn't
21 remember any details.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: On this question of compound questions, it seems
23 to be a speciality in the Tribunal to ask compound questions. I have yet
24 to come against -- across anyone who asks one fact at a time. And I can
25 tell you that he's going tell you -- yeah. And the one is the flip side
1 of that, you remember from footage and photographs, but on your own you
2 don't remember.
3 You know, I really don't know how to rule on that one, because
4 that has been my frustration with questions here.
5 MS. BOLTON: Well, I understand, Your Honour. I know the
6 guidelines say we're to avoid complicated and compound questions and --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know. I know.
8 MS. BOLTON: -- I just wished the Chamber to remind Mr. Lukic
9 that have guideline and --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I remind everybody, Madam Bolton included, to ask
11 a question containing one fact at a time. And my training says if your
12 sentence goes more than eight words, you're beginning to go into a
13 compound question.
14 "What's your name?" "Where do you come from?"
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just giving examples. "What's your father's
17 name?" That's the kind of question to ask.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up P2792.
19 Q. You gave evidence about this photograph yesterday,
20 Mr. Krayishnik. This is October 1993. It's the same location, if I'm
21 not mistaken, as the location of the other photographs you recognised as
22 dating from 18 July 1995
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At Crna Rijeka.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I see the table is set. We can see glasses and bottles. The
2 plates are not very well -- very clear on the photograph, but we have a
3 hard copy.
4 Do you remember was there luncheon?
5 A. When do you mean?
6 Q. On the basis of this photograph, that's what I'm asking. Do you
7 remember that then, in 1993, a luncheon was organised there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you remember that because you saw the table set on the
10 photograph; correct?
11 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I'm looking at the print version of this
12 photograph, and my friend has suggested that the table is set, and I
13 disagree. I see no plates. I can show my friend the blow-up and -- I
14 think perhaps the Chamber needs to see the blow-up.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you -- if you disagree -- I'm not quite
16 sure -- are you just standing up to say you are disagreeing?
17 MS. BOLTON: No, I'm saying I think the question is unfair
18 because it suggests that the table is set, and in fact the photograph
19 shows the table is not set.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to speed things up, but it
22 looks like I'm not going to be able to.
23 Let us show V000-2816 to the witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic. You see when, an objection is
25 raised, the Chamber must rule on that objection before we go to the next
1 point. So you don't sort of dodge it by saying, Okay, let's go to the
2 next thing.
3 When I said, "Mr. Lukic," I wanted you to respond to the
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] right. On this photograph I cannot
6 see any plates. I cannot be sure about it.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection upheld. Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Although the witness has just
9 answered, but let us show video footage V000 -- sorry, it's 65 ter 9599,
10 the very beginning of the clip. It might just assist us.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: 9599.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct. The first -- the first few
13 seconds of this footage.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which footage is this, 9599?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's a video-clip.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one that was shown by Madam Bolton?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Something else. Okay.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is helping us with
20 this. Will they be able to help us maybe? [In English] Okay.
21 MS. BOLTON: I think -- is this --
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. So from 0:00:00 to 00:21
25 was organised as well on that occasion?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you first talked to Mrs. Bolton in August 2009, you did not
3 have the opportunity then to see any photographs or videos. You were
4 trying then to answer her questions to the best of your recollection;
6 A. Yes. There was a recording of our conversation at the hotel.
7 The weather was very bad with a lot of thunder and rain, and as you can
8 see in the transcript, there are many corrections of spelling and names
9 and place names.
10 Q. What I want to know is that on that occasion she did not show you
11 any photographs or video-clips. She just asked you to cast your mind
12 back and try to remember things.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Those questions related to the period of 14 to 15 years ago.
15 A. Fourteen to 17 years ago. The period from 1992 through 1995.
16 Q. And in the second interview, after reviewing photographs and
17 video footage that Mrs. Bolton used to refresh your memory, you made
18 certain corrections and additions to what you had said the first time.
19 A. As far as I'm able to remember on my first meetings there were
20 two or three photographs that Mr. Lesic had given me, but very few
21 photographs, just two or three.
22 Q. In that first interview, and if necessary we can show it to you,
23 you said you thought you went to that trip with Mr. Salapura and then you
24 refreshed your memory with photographs and videos, and then you corrected
25 yourself and said it was not the time when you went with Mr. Salapura.
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. But in the first interview you believed it was the trip you made
3 with Mr. Salapura.
4 A. Yes. I thought so at the time, but I wasn't sure. Then in the
5 second interview, I had already realised that he had not been with us
6 that time. It was another time.
7 Q. Also, in the first interview when the Prosecutor asked you about
8 Mr. Perisic, you said you had not talked to him on that occasion, and
9 then -- and you said you were sitting at the other end of the table with
10 your back to him, and then in the second interview after again reviewing
11 documents, you said that you did have a conversation with him; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I think my friend is -- should be using the
14 actual transcript. A part of what he said I agree with, but part of what
15 he said is not accurate to my recollection of -- of what was said in
16 the -- in the first audio-taped interview. So if he could take us to the
17 pages of the transcript.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you take us to the pages of the transcript,
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MS. BOLTON: And if it assists my friend, I don't disagree that
21 he did not recall having any conversation with General Perisic, but I
22 don't recall the reference about him sitting at the other end of the
23 table with his back to him. It was something else he said, as I recall.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we please see
1 1D04-0476, page English 22, Serbian 15. Sorry, no. B/C/S is also 22.
2 No, B/C/S is 15.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess you are going to come back to this
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. No, Your Honour. You're
6 right. I'm not going to show the video-tape. I'm just going to tender
7 this particular clip. I just wanted to show that there was a luncheon
8 organised, because that was not obvious from the photograph.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: When I say you're going to come back to that
10 video-clip, for purposes of tendering or --
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now we are on what, 04-0476. Does it -- is that
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Point us to the paragraph, sir.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me find it. We would also need
17 to see it, next page. We're reading from line 21. The Court's
19 Q. I will read from page 15 in B/C/S. I'll read from line 22 on.
20 In English it's line 25 in English.
21 So in Serbian it reads:
22 "Did you talk to him a lot?"
23 Your answer is:
24 "No. In fact, I didn't talk to him at all. They were talking.
25 They were sitting, and they were able to -- Ratko and all these important
1 officers" --
2 MS. BOLTON: [Overlapping speakers]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
4 MS. BOLTON: What I have on my screen isn't corresponding with
5 what my friend is reading.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither is mine.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. We'll have to find the
8 right page in English.
9 Can we turn the page in English?
10 Your Honours, may I have your permission to adjourn for today,
11 and we'll find all this for the start of our first session tomorrow. It
12 will be easier to organise.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do adjourn --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do adjourn, I am aware that you've just
16 begun your cross-examination. Are you able to say how long you're going
17 to be with the witness?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I can. I think I'll
19 take less than one session. Certainly less than one session. Up to one
20 hour. Perhaps less.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The reason I am raising this point, Mr. Harmon,
22 tomorrow is the fifth day we will -- fifth consecutive day we will be
23 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. Judge David is only coming back on --
24 in the night of the 6th -- on the night of the 6th. I'm not sure when
25 the next witness is coming. I know he's coming from Canada, and I'm not
1 sure whether -- when he's scheduled to be testifying. If he's scheduled
2 to be testifying sometime this week after tomorrow, we can't sit because
3 we will have sat five days on Friday, and Judge David won't be here.
4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, he is currently scheduled to testify on
5 Friday. He hasn't left Canada
6 departure from Canada
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Hence my raising the point. I thought there might
8 just be a chance we can resolve the problem.
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, there is. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are most welcome. Okay. Unfortunately,
11 Mr. Krayishnik, we've got to give this court to another case that must
12 sit now. We have got to stop at this time. We're not done with you yet.
13 We will have you come back again tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning.
14 Same courtroom. Once again, no discussion with anybody about the case
15 during that interval. See you tomorrow morning.
16 Court adjourned until tomorrow morning.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day
19 of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.