1 Wednesday, 4 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances for
12 today, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning counsel,
14 everyone in the courtroom. Mark Harmon, Lorna Bolton and Carmela Javier
15 for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
18 morning to everyone in the courtroom. Appearing for Mr. Perisic today,
19 Ms. Tina Drolec; Chad Mair; our intern, Alex Fielding; and Novak Lukic,
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Good morning, Mr. Krayishnik. Just to remind you that you are
23 still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your
24 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. May the record show in -- I
3 think we didn't say so yesterday, that we are still sitting pursuant to
4 Rule 15 bis and we have been doing so since Monday. At least for this
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: NED KRAYISHNIK [Resumed]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krayishnik, I don't know if your head set is
11 set to Serbian?
12 A. [Interpretation] Yes, they are. I can hear you.
13 Q. All right. Then we'll continue as yesterday with the same
14 caution, please wait a few seconds after my question. Please follow the
15 text on the screen. When you see the typing has finished, you can start
16 with your answer.
17 I stopped yesterday because Ms. Bolton objected to my presenting
18 a prior statement of the witness, that's where we left off. I was about
19 to present the witness an answer he gave to the Prosecution in his first
20 interview. Let me just refresh your memory a little.
21 Yesterday, we discussed the fact that in your first interview,
22 you had not had the opportunity to review all the notes and photographs
23 and video footage that you saw before the second interview, and in the
24 first interview, I mean in August this year, you said certain things that
25 you later corrected, things that you stated to the best of your
1 recollection based only on your memory. And then you said on that
2 occasion you did not travel with Colonel Salapura and then you corrected
3 that later.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will now read out part of this
5 answer, Your Honours. I will be reading this part that begins with this
6 page in line 9, and in English it begins in line 20. Ms. Bolton's
7 question reads --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Lukic, when you say beginning with this
9 page, which page?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's the page, to be precise, in
11 B/C/S 15, and in English it's page 21. I'm starting to read from
12 line 20. We will also later turn the page.
13 Q. So, do you see in English line 18, Ms. Bolton's question? It's
14 in front of you, Witness. The transcript reads --
15 A. [Interpretation] I am sorry, I don't see this number 18.
16 Q. In Serbian it's line 9. I will read, you don't need to look at
17 the screen.
18 "Q. We were talking earlier about some of the people you met
19 over there and your impressions of them. Do you recall meeting a Serbian
20 general called Momcilo Perisic?"
21 Your answer:
22 "Yes, I met him once.
23 "Q. Where was that?"
24 Your answer:
25 "That was in the headquarters with Mladic, yes, but only during
1 the lunch hour, I think, and we had lunch there and we were on our way
2 down to Pale.
3 "Q. Did you speak much with him or ...?"
4 Your answer:
5 "No, actually I didn't talk to him at all. They were talking.
6 They were sitting," and then something unintelligible, "and they were
7 able to -- Ratko and all these important officers were behind our backs.
8 I didn't have any conversation directly with them. "
9 So this is a passage from the first statement you gave to
10 Ms. Bolton in August, when you had not had the opportunity to see the
11 photographs that later refreshed your memory; correct?
12 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. And during that first interview with Ms. Bolton --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
15 MS. BOLTON: Just one correction. Obviously my friend is reading
16 from the B/C/S version and it's being translated into Court. The
17 original interview was in English, and the wording of what was said about
18 Ratko Mladic was slightly different in the actual English version.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was important, not -- "big" not "important."
20 MS. BOLTON: No, it was also: "... and Ratko and all those big,"
21 that was different, "army officers were all at our back." So it's a
22 little different than: "They were sitting with their backs to us."
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, these are the problems we often
25 have here. I agree with Ms. Bolton, the official version is in English.
1 I read the official, or rather, the draft translation.
2 Q. So when you saw these photographs, you talked to Ms. Bolton again
3 a month later in September, that's what I call the second interview, and
4 when you saw the photographs, you remembered exactly how you were sitting
5 and then you made the corrections you told us about yesterday; correct?
6 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
7 Q. Yesterday, asked by Ms. Bolton on page 9573, line 20 of the draft
8 transcript of yesterday's session --
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's page 43, line 16, if the
10 Judges are looking at the same.
11 Q. You said that you didn't remember who Perisic was accompanied by
12 when you first saw him outside that facility in Crna Rijeka; is that what
13 you said to Ms. Bolton?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
15 Q. And then Ms. Bolton read out to you yesterday in court part of
16 your statement of September when, on page 9575, line 25, you said he was
17 with General Mladic and General Gvero. Do you remember saying that
19 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
20 Q. Now, this statement of September 2009 that Ms. Bolton read out to
21 you, is not a statement that you gave to just anyone ten years ago, you
22 gave it less than two months ago?
23 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
24 Q. And I noticed that speaking to the Court yesterday, you had
25 forgotten what you had said to the Prosecutor two months ago, and the
1 Prosecutor had to remind you; right?
2 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
3 Q. Could that have happened maybe because after 14 years you don't
4 remember all these details what exactly happened, where you were, who
5 exactly you talked to, what was said?
6 A. [Interpretation] That is true. That happened a long time ago.
7 Since then I have not been thinking about it. I haven't revisited that.
8 I did not imagine that I would have to go back to these events in my life
9 that I had mostly forgotten.
10 Q. These days you have been shown several video-clips, I'm talking
11 only about what was done in the courtroom, and you were shown them at
12 least on two occasions -- two more occasions, first in September, and
13 then during proofing here in The Hague?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
15 Q. These video-clips were shown to you and you were asked to say to
16 the best of your recollection whether during those days there had been
17 any discussion about Srebrenica and the military operation around
18 Srebrenica. The Prosecutor asked you that; correct?
19 A. [Interpretation ] Yes.
20 Q. And we saw yesterday when this video footage was shown to you of
21 17 July 1995
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me remind everyone that's the
23 video-clip when Mladic is reading the list, the long list of names of
25 Q. At one point - that's page 12 of P2807, that's B/C/S transcript -
1 he mentions that that was the day of the liberation of Srebrenica, the
2 17 of July, and he mentions the painter Milic od Macve?
3 A. [Interpretation] I don't remember the reference to Milic od Macve
4 or anything like that but I -- yes, that's the -- that is the place.
5 Q. This event, the liberation of Srebrenica, is also mentioned in
6 that video footage that shows your visit with Krajisnik and Karadzic of
7 the 18th of July. One of the speakers then says they realise very well
8 how important that event is, the liberation of Srebrenica, and how these
9 people, Krajisnik and Karadzic, must be busy with all these activities.
10 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. These two video-clips were shown to you both in September, in
12 your second interview with Ms. Bolton, and here in The Hague over the
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
15 Q. And yesterday, on page 46 of the draft unrevised transcript, I
16 couldn't identify it in the official one, Ms. Bolton read out to you part
17 of your statement of September 2009 where you said that Mr. Mladic and
18 Mr. Gvero, during this encounter outside that facility in Han Pijesak,
19 sitting on those benches, were talking about Srebrenica in Perisic's
20 presence. Do you remember the Prosecutor reading that passage to you
22 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
23 Q. However, Ms. Bolton did not read out to you the proofing note of
24 the 1st of November.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now place on the screen the
1 document marked OTP Info Report 01112229. That's how it's marked in
2 e-court. Those are the notes. Just a second. Ms. Drolec is helping us
3 out as Case Manager today, to the best of her ability. I beg the Court's
5 Q. Before we get this document on the screen, during the interview
6 Ms. Bolton had with you on the 1st of November, she made a note and you
7 signed it. I'd like it to read out to you what the note says.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please. Can we call it up on
9 the screen when we get the document.
10 Q. You see here in the third paragraph, that's the note made by
11 Ms. Bolton:
12 "[In English] Contrary to his information report of
13 18 September 2009
14 today, the witness advised that he is not sure that the conversation
15 about Srebrenica on 18th of July took place at the picnic area. It may
16 have taken place in the boardroom."
17 [Interpretation] Now, this is the note made by Ms. Bolton just a
18 few days ago. She showed you that interview to which she referred
19 yesterday in the courtroom and this note says that a few days ago you
20 were not sure whether Srebrenica was discussed at all while they were
21 sitting on those benches; correct?
22 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
23 Q. So regardless of the fact that she presented to you your
24 interview of September 2009 where you said that you had thought
25 Srebrenica was discussed in that area with benches, where the photographs
1 were made, just a few days ago, you told her you were not sure after all?
2 A. [Interpretation] Yes. I said that Madam Bolton reminded me that
3 I signed the document, and I said I have a much better recollection of
4 things that happened 20 or 30 years ago than things that happened two
5 weeks or a month ago. And I feel that in my work; if I don't make a note
6 of something, I forget it.
7 That's why I keep in my cell phone a reminder of all the things I
8 have to do, on which day, in order not to forget, because I did begin to
9 forget. I don't know if it's age, probably is.
10 Q. You probably realise, Witness, that facts are very important to
11 us here, and if you say that something happened, it's very important that
12 you stand by it. And if you don't remember something, it's better to
13 say, I don't remember it. That's very important in these proceedings.
14 And I'm asking you once again, let's try to be as precise as possible.
15 Do you remember --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton
17 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, I thought my -- before my friend moves on, I
18 just want to correct part of the question that my friend asked at
19 lines 10 to 13 of the transcript. He suggested there that what the
20 witness said in his September 2009 statement was that he thought there
21 had been discussion of Srebrenica, and the portion of the statement I put
22 to him did not indicate -- was not equivocal, it indicated there was
23 discussion. There was no use of the word that he "thought" it was
24 discussed. So just indicating that I object to the suggestion that he
25 was equivocal in his -- in paragraph 12 of that statement.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand you. You are objecting to the
2 use of the word "thought"?
3 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
6 Q. In your interview of September 2009 that Ms. Bolton read out
7 yesterday you said that during that encounter, and let's be precise, I'm
8 interested in the period when Mr. Perisic was present, that was 18 July,
9 on the benches outside the building known as Javor. You said Mladic and
10 Gvero discussed Srebrenica. That's written in paragraph 12 of the
11 statement Ms. Bolton presented to you not only yesterday but during
12 proofing a few days ago?
13 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
14 Q. And then you said to Ms. Bolton what I just read out, that you
15 don't remember whether there was a discussion of Srebrenica on the
16 benches or perhaps it was discussed in the boardroom?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You saw on video that Srebrenica was mentioned in that room?
21 A. [Interpretation] Correct.
22 Q. I'll ask you to answer with a yes, no, maybe, or I don't
23 remember. At the time when you were sitting with Mr. Perisic --
24 MS. BOLTON: Sorry --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, I don't think it's appropriate for my
2 friend to be telling the witness how he has to answer a question.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I only said something that is
5 frequently said in courtrooms, that there are three answers to be
6 expected from the witness. I don't see anything unusual about it. We
7 always did that, especially when we wanted the witness to be concise. I
8 really don't see a problem with telling the witness that he can answer
9 yes, no, I don't know, or I don't remember.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you remember that at that time when you were sitting with
13 Mr. Perisic you heard discussion of Srebrenica? Yes, no, I don't
14 remember, or I don't know.
15 A. [Interpretation] When I was sitting with General Perisic and
16 talked, I don't remember that we discussed, the two of us, I don't
17 remember we discussed Srebrenica.
18 Q. All right. In view of what you had said to Ms. Bolton that I
19 just read out --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Krayishnik, the question to you was:
21 "When I was sitting with General Perisic and talked, I don't
22 remember" -- I beg your pardon. "Do you remember that at that time when
23 you were sitting with Mr. Perisic you heard discussion of Srebrenica?"
24 Now, hearing a discussion of Srebrenica is one thing; you
25 discussing with Mr. Perisic is another. The question is not whether you
1 did discuss with Mr. Perisic. Did you hear a discussion about Srebrenica
2 while you were sitting there, or don't you remember?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood your
4 question but the question that was asked of me was whether I discussed
5 with Mr. Perisic, and I answered I don't remember whether -- I don't
6 remember that we discussed it, General Perisic and I. As to conversation
7 around us --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look at page 10, line 24. Question by Mr. Lukic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question in Serbian or in
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's in English, sir. The transcript before you
12 is in English.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 10, line 24.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need assistance to find my way.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I maybe read it in English?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I read it in English. He doesn't -- I would
18 like him to see it himself because I read it out. He doesn't ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether I heard
20 conversation, when I was sitting with Mr. Perisic, about Srebrenica.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Krayishnik. Thank you so much.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Krayishnik, I won't take much longer, but I have to ask you a
24 few more questions that follow from your evidence yesterday. You can't
25 remember with certainty when, on the 17th of July, you arrived at
1 Han Pijesak. You said yesterday -- you said so yesterday on page 9538,
2 line 20, of yesterday's transcript.
3 A. [Interpretation] Right.
4 Q. You don't know who organised vehicles for that journey, do you?
5 A. [Interpretation] I don't.
6 Q. Neither do you know whether General Mladic mentioned Srebrenica
7 several times -- several times those days when you were with him? That's
8 on page 9551, line 1.
9 A. [Interpretation] Correct.
10 Q. You don't remember what part of day it was, that footage when
11 your group was handing over the medication and spare parts for cars in
12 Crna Rijeka?
13 A. [Interpretation] I don't remember what time it was.
14 Q. It was on the 18th of July. That's not in dispute. But you said
15 yesterday, on page 9557, line 8, that you don't know what part of day it
17 A. [Interpretation] Right.
18 Q. And you can't remember either whether this video-clip about the
19 hand-over of medication and spare parts was before or after your
20 encounter with Mr. Perisic?
21 A. [Interpretation] That's right.
22 Q. You can't remember where you spent that night of the
23 17th of July, you said that on 9557, line 17. You don't know where
24 exactly in the area of Han Pijesak or Crna Rijeka. Your recollection of
25 that day, 18 of July, 1995, is generally poor. It was 14 years ago and
1 you can't remember much except what was shown you on photographs and
2 video footage --
3 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, is my friend testifying about indicating that
4 his memory is generally poor.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your friend's testifying, did you say?
6 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I think my friend is testifying. He can ask a
7 question if his memory is generally poor, but to be making the statement
8 as part of his questions -- he says:
9 "Your recollection of that day, 18 July, is generally poor," and
10 then he goes on with a second question.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic. That is the problem with compound
12 questions, with many sentences in one question.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but before that, after my
14 question on page 13, line 12, the witness's answer has not been recorded.
15 No, sorry.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness's answer has not been recorded
17 precisely because Madam Bolton objected.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I apologise.
19 Q. Witness, apart from what you saw on photographs and video about
20 the 18th of July, you can't remember other details because it was a long
21 time ago and you don't have a good memory of that period long ago?
22 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honour, I'd like to show
24 the witness another witness statement according to your guide-line 12,
25 but we have to ask the witness to leave the courtroom for a moment
1 because I have to tell you about the author of the text that I want to
2 show the witness according to your guide-line 12.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't have to tell us about the author. Go
4 ahead and ask the witness without telling him the author. You will tell
5 us the author later.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see, I see.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead, don't tell him who the author is, just
8 ask him.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay then, I'll do that later. But I
10 thought I would perhaps put it on e-court for you so you could follow the
11 passage I show the witness without the witness looking at it, because in
12 that passage we can see whose talking. I have exact references in
13 e-court of the pages I want to read to the witness. There are three
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you have -- on the exact pages you want to
16 read, is the name of the witness mentioned there? Of the author?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. In the header of each page you
18 can see the name of the witness, and that's why I thought we could switch
19 off the screen before the witness for awhile.
20 MS. BOLTON: Before my friend does this, may I just have a brief
21 indulgence to check something?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, Madam.
23 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Krayishnik, once again you are being asked to
25 excuse us for a short while. If you can step out for a short while.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So in keeping with your guide-lines,
4 paragraph 12, I would like to show the witness now three brief passages
5 from a statement Mr. Milan Lesic gave to Ms. Bolton on the 7th of August,
6 2009. These pages are in e-court and I can tell that you it's 213, 217,
7 and 208. Those are the page numbers. I believe there's one more page,
8 but these are the page numbers in e-court. The problem is -- it's easy
9 to show it to you in e-court, but according to your guide-lines, you need
10 to know exact references in the statement. Those pages have two numbers
11 because the interview took two days. I would like to give you the
12 reference for e-court. That would be the most precise way to go about
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. And in fact, better still than
15 giving us the reference, you can just show us the page.
16 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, could my friend -- I have the print versions
17 and could he tell me what pages he is referring to in the print versions
18 of those documents?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and we were having trouble
20 with that. That would be page 87.
21 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, August 6th?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, second day, 7th August.
23 Page 84 from line 15 to line 5 on page 85. Then on page 86, your
24 question beginning with line 10 -- sorry, no, no, we are not going to
25 take that one. Page 87, your question beginning on line 5 through
1 line 30. Page 88, lines 10 through 15. And finally, page 79, lines 15
2 through line 5 on page 80. All this was in English.
3 And now in e-court --
4 MS. BOLTON: Sorry to interrupt. This is the August 7th
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes, yes.
7 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since there is a name on each page, I
9 think that the witness shouldn't be allowed to see the screen. I think
10 we can call the witness back into the courtroom. And as for e-court, I
11 would like to call document 1D04 --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you do that, Mr. Lukic, the document
13 that has just disappeared from the screen, 01112229, what is supposed to
14 become of that?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Honours. 1D04-0571. I
16 would first like to have on the screen page 213 in English, and 215 in
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you said the witness might come in in the
20 Mr. Usher.
21 MS. BOLTON: And we're -- I take it the decision is that his
22 screen is going to be turned off?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know how Mr. Lukic is proposing to go
24 about it. I thought now that you know that hard copy pages, he is going
25 to be telling him what he said, what the other witness said, without
1 showing the thing on the screen. I don't know.
2 MS. BOLTON: Is that what -- I'm just a little confused. We are
3 not displaying the pages; is that right? Okay. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the page is displayed right in front of me
5 right now with the name of the author.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just switch off the witness's
7 monitor or just to turn it the other way?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Turn off the witness's monitor, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to put a screen saver on it.
10 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, can we do that before the witness sees the
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'm going to read the English version and, Mr. Witness, you
16 should remain on the same channel as before. I'm going to put to you
17 what another person said about this same event who claims to have been
18 present during this interview with Mr. Perisic. I'm going to first read
19 to out to you and then I'm going to put some questions to you.
20 MR. LUKIC: Line 15, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we zoom in a little bit on the English. We
24 can't see line 15. Okay. That's better.
25 MR. LUKIC:
1 Q. Question, starts a little bit somewhere between line 10 and 15:
2 "You said that General Perisic was there for maybe two to three
3 hours and that General Mladic told him that he had guests. Is that
4 conversation you overheard?"
5 Answer --
6 [Interpretation] No, no, please, I'm reading to you what this
7 other person had to say, so please listen very carefully and my questions
8 will follow.
9 A. [Interpretation] There's some confusion on the channels and I'm
10 hearing both the English and the B/C/S.
11 MR. LUKIC: Change the channel to English, please.
12 Q. So I'm now reading in English and you are listening following my
13 reading in English, okay?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is the part of the testimony -- of the interview with other
16 person who now have to -- who now speaks about the same events which you
17 testified, right? And I will, at the very end, when I finish reading
18 this part of his interview, I will pose you some questions, okay?
19 "Q. You said that General Perisic was there for maybe two to
20 three hours, and that General Mladic told him that he had guests. Is
21 that conversation you overheard?"
22 "A. No. We were there sitting and he must have told him, he
23 says: I'm having a guest, come on over. So he met all of us, as it
24 shows in the tape."
25 Ms. Bolton -- sorry, question:
1 "So does General Perisic then call ahead and he says 'I have
2 guests, come over,' or does he show up, drive up, and ...
3 "A. I don't know that happened.
4 "Q. Okay. So you just see him, and he is nearby with
5 General Mladic and he being introduced?
6 "A. No. We were sitting there, and the phone comes or
7 something, and he just told us, Oh, General Perisic is coming over.
8 "Q. And it was General Mladic who told you General Perisic is
9 coming over?
10 "A. Well he told -- not me, he told all of us.
11 "Q. Yes.
12 "A. Sitting there. And then he arrived, and then we are all
13 introduced to him and that's how it was.
14 "Q. Okay. And how long was it from the time he says
15 General Perisic is coming over until he arrived?
16 "A. Twenty minutes, ten minutes. Just having coffee and ..."
17 This is the first part I read. Now I will read you the second
19 MR. LUKIC: E-court, Your Honour, English page 219, line 1. I am
20 starting to reading. B/C/S 218.
21 Question -- 216, English, pardon. Just a second. Yes, thank
22 you. From the very top.
23 Q. "Q. Okay. I assume that General Perisic and General Mladic --
24 was this just a social call, did he not have any time alone with
25 General Mladic to discuss any business?
1 "A. Not in my presence there that I remember.
2 "Q. Okay. Was General Mladic with you the whole time that day?
3 "A. Not all day. This time when the pictures were taken and
4 when we were sitting there. But he had his other agenda, the jobs to do.
5 I wasn't with him all day.
6 "Q. Okay. He obviously had other jobs to do. He is the
7 general; right?
8 "A. Other things to attend, not only me.
9 "Q. Okay. Can you recall whether or not at any point in the
10 time then he and General Perisic were absent from the table together?
11 "A. I don't remember. I don't recall. I don't think they did
12 in our presence.
13 "Q. Okay. I know in your presence you're saying you don't think
14 they did, but just so I'm clear --
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. I'm asking you to remember something obviously that it's
17 fourteen years ago now.
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. Would you be able to say you are a hundred per cent sure
20 that the two of them never had the opportunity to speak privately that
22 "A. That day I don't know, but not during my being there that I
23 have seen them talking privately, no."
24 Next -- on this page, my reference is now on line 10.
25 "Q. And you don't recall there being a meal together or anything
1 with General Perisic that day?
2 "A. No, he did not eat with us that I remember it."
3 And finally, I'm just wondering if you can put from the e-court
4 for the others participating in the courtroom, the page English 280 --
5 208 in the e-court. B/C/S 210, line 15.
6 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, could we just --
7 MR. LUKIC: This is page 79.
8 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Question -- it's line 20 is when the question
11 Q. "Q. Can you tell me, do you remember when General Perisic
12 arrived at Javor? Did he spend the night on the 17th?
13 "A. No. No, he didn't. He arrived, it was 2 or three hours
14 with us and he was gone.
15 "Q. Okay. What time of the day was it that he arrived?
16 "A. It was, I would say, in the afternoon in my recollection.
17 "Q. Was there a meal or anything that he was present for or
18 just ...?
19 "A. No, he was just there to say hello to General Mladic, and he
20 says, I have some visitors. And then first time I saw him and the last
21 time I saw him. General Perisic, Momcilo Perisic."
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will now go back to Serbian, could
23 we set the witness's head set to channel 6.
24 Q. As Ms. Bolton refreshed your memory with photographs and
25 documents, I want to ask you something about what you just heard. As you
1 could see, this was an interview between a certain person and the
2 Prosecution about the same matters that have been discussed here. I want
3 to know several things. Is it correct that you were sitting there with
4 that group? Further, that Mr. Perisic joined you on those benches,
5 three, that he sat with you?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: One question at a time.
7 MS. BOLTON: Please.
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
9 Q. [Interpretation] You heard what this person said?
10 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. Is it possible that this entire encounter happened in this way,
12 that you were sitting there and then Mr. Perisic joined you on those
13 benches; is that a possibility?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes, that's a possibility. As I said earlier,
15 and as I have to say again, it was a long time ago. Obviously my memory
16 has deteriorated in the past four or five years. That's why I asked
17 Ms. Bolton to let my wife accompany me here because I keep forgetting
18 things. I forget to take my medicine, and if I don't take it regularly,
19 I have real health problems. These are the facts. It's reality.
20 Some things I remember, some things I forget, but obviously that
21 witness has a better memory. He recalls these events better than I do.
22 Q. That witness -- you didn't say that yesterday, but it was shown
23 to you through references to previous interviews, that witness says that
24 it was no luncheon, that you were just sitting talking?
25 A. [Interpretation] Yes, it's possible. Now that I heard part of
1 his evidence, I keep thinking and I can't remember whether we had lunch
2 there or at Pale, or whether we had lunch at all. And I don't remember
3 the exact time when that happened.
4 Q. Except on that occasion you have never seen General Momcilo
5 Perisic either before or after that?
6 A. [Interpretation] Correct.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krayishnik.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
9 cross-examination. I don't wish to tender the part I read out as
10 evidence because we have it in the transcript. We can keep it as a
11 reserve until the witness appears in the courtroom with regard to your
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
14 Madam Bolton, any re-examination?
15 MS. BOLTON: I will have some re-examination, Your Honours. I
16 see it's 10.00. I wonder if we could take the break earlier so that I
17 can locate in the transcript some of the things -- questions Mr. Lukic
18 asked today?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll do that. We'll take a break, then
20 come back at quarter to.
21 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, that would be plenty of time. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 9.57 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10:45 a.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
3 Q. Hello again, Mr. Krayishnik.
4 A. Hello, Madam Bolton
5 Q. Today you told us that you take some medication, and I'd like to
6 know what the medication you take -- what conditions it's to control?
7 A. I'm taking for diabetes [Realtime transcript read in error
8 "arthritis"] and the cholesterol and some natural medication for all kind
9 of body function.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said diabetics, not arthritis.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, as well, arthritis as well.
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. So diabetes, arthritis and cholesterol; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. And the fish oil, like for memories and stuff like that.
15 Q. Omega 3, that kind of preventative stuff?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Do you take any medication for any kind of cognitive
18 condition or psychiatric condition?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Any medication for your memory?
21 A. I believe that there is some of these medication for retaining
23 Q. What medication do you take to retain your memory?
24 A. I think it's glucosamine, or something like that.
25 Q. Glucosamine?
1 A. Yes, and some other, I can't remember what the name. It's in a
3 Q. Glucosamine is not a prescription medication; correct?
4 A. It's a natural doctor's prevent -- yeah.
5 Q. It's something you can buy in the drugstore; correct?
6 A. No, actually I buy it at the doctor's office.
7 Q. You buy it at the doctor's office. Have you ever been diagnosed
8 with any kind of a memory problem by any physician, sir?
9 A. No, I haven't, but I haven't been checked either.
10 Q. Are you still employed, sir?
11 A. I'm semi-retired.
12 Q. When you say you are semi-retired, who do you work for?
13 A. I have an insurance agency and I am in association with insurance
14 brokerage firm called Financial Horizon.
15 Q. Do you have employees, sir?
16 A. Part-time, yes.
17 Q. How many?
18 A. One.
19 Q. And how many different companies, insurance companies do you
20 represent in your business?
21 A. There's about 29 company in the list, but I deal about five, six
22 companies, occasionally from time to time.
23 Q. How many days a week do you currently work, sir?
24 A. A couple of days a week.
25 Q. Two days a week?
1 A. Two, three, depends on the need.
2 Q. Okay. Any idea what your annual revenues are for your company?
3 A. The -- from the insurance agency approximately around 30.000.
4 Q. And you --
5 A. But I also have income from my dealerships, silent partner.
6 Q. You also have another business, then. A silent partner in a
7 dealership of what?
8 A. A dealership of vehicle, cars.
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say annual revenues of about $30.000?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. And what would you bring in from your car dealership partnership?
15 A. About $50.000.
16 Q. Okay. Now, my friend suggested to you, during questioning today,
17 that essentially you have no memory of the discussions around July 16th,
18 17th and 18th except to the extent that your memory has been refreshed by
19 the videos. Do you recall that line of questioning, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You've also conceded that the first time that you spoke to the
22 Office of the Prosecutor in August 2009, that at that point in time your
23 memory hadn't been refreshed by any video-tapes; correct?
24 A. I think so. I think you had a couple of pictures or something
25 like that.
1 Q. But no video-tapes; right?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. As far as I remember, I don't think we had video.
5 Q. Okay. And I want to remind you, sir, then, what your memory was
6 before it was refreshed from the video-tapes about this discussion and
7 meeting with Momcilo Perisic.
8 MS. BOLTON: I'm looking at the transcript of that audio
9 interview, which is ID number 1D04-0476. If we could look at page --
10 what I have as page 21. If that could be displayed, please. So page 21
11 in the English version, please. Could you --
12 Q. You see at the bottom, I want to read you the following passage
13 starting in e-court at line -- line 18. I asked you:
14 "We were talking earlier about some of the people you met over
15 there and your impressions of them. Do you recall meeting a Serbian
16 general called Momcilo Perisic?"
17 And you responded: "Yes, I met him once."
18 I asked: "Where was that?"
19 You responded:
20 "And that was in a headquarters with Mladic, yeah, but only with
21 the lunch hour, I think, and we had lunch there and we were on our way
22 down to Pale."
23 And I asked:
24 "Did you speak much with him or ...?"
25 And you started and said:
1 "No, actually" - if we could turn the page please - "I didn't
2 talk to him at all. They were talking -- they were sitting up," then
3 there's something we can't hear, "and they could -- and Ratko and all
4 those big army officers were all at our back. I didn't have any
5 conversation directly with them."
6 And I said:
7 "Okay. Do you remember which trip this was or ...?"
8 And you said:
9 "I think that was 1995, when they liberated the Srebrenica."
10 Second passage I want to put to you is in that same transcript --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
12 MS. BOLTON: My apologies. If we could have page 31. Could I
13 have -- my pages aren't the same as in e-court, could I have page 32,
14 please. If we could scroll to the bottom of the page, please.
15 Q. Okay. We are talking earlier on the page about Naser Oric and
16 the raiding parties, and then starting at approximately line 27 in
17 e-court, Mr. Nicholls was asking you questions. And he said:
18 "And were they discussing that at the lunch that" --
19 MS. BOLTON: Actually, I'm sorry, could we scroll up? I need to
20 start this passage a little earlier to give it context. Yes, thank you,
21 that's fine.
22 Q. This is what you said:
23 "Well, apparently it was a major victory for them because
24 apparently there were soldiers going over constantly. They were going
25 and shooting the Serbian villagers and Serbian people that were," THEN
1 there's something inaudible, "they were -- that group was never kind of
3 Mr. Nicholls said: "Naser Oric?"
4 And you said: "Yeah."
5 I said: "Raiding parties of Srebrenica?"
6 And you said: "Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ..."
7 And Mr. Nicholls said: "And so ..."
8 And you said:
9 "That was it. But I thought that they were, like, much more safe
10 then," and there's something indiscernible.
11 Mr. Nicholls said:
12 "And were they discussing that at that lunch that, you know, now
13 it's over, that problem? I mean, it's liberated, that problem is done?"
14 And you said:
15 "Yeah, and they did say that they liberated and they were -- but
16 I -- they didn't spend very much time on it. They were -- I don't think
17 they had time at all. They just -- lunch" --
18 MS. BOLTON: If we could turn the page. If we could scroll up.
19 In English. If we could scroll to the top of the page, please. Thank
21 Q. "Yeah, and they did say -- and that's what I said. I think I saw
22 General Perisic was there as well, and I think that he didn't spend time
23 with him much except lunch.
24 "Do you recall who was talking about Srebrenica that time or ...?
25 "Well, Gvero, Mladic, and they were laughing about it, that they
1 liberated," something inaudible.
2 I asked: "Was General Perisic there to hear about that?"
3 You said: "I think he would hear it because they were all
5 So, sir, before your memory -- you had any opportunity to view
6 the videos, when first mention was made of General Perisic, you
7 immediately said you remember that the occasion that you met him was on
8 the liberation of Srebrenica, and then you went on to say there was
9 discussion of Srebrenica at that lunch in the presence of
10 General Perisic.
11 Do you recall that conversation, sir?
12 A. With you. Yes, I do recall the conversation with you.
13 Q. Yes. All right.
14 A. Okay, and Mr. Nicholls.
15 Q. Correct. Now, you then gave a signed statement to the Office of
16 the Prosecutor dated September 10th, 2009.
17 MS. BOLTON: And this is 1D04-0461.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: All these IDs are not being tendered?
19 MS. BOLTON: They have not been tendered as yet, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they are not intended to be tendered?
21 MS. BOLTON: I am not intending to tender them, Your Honour.
22 Q. You then --
23 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, if I could have the English version, and I'll
24 be looking at paragraph 21. If we could focus in a little bit, it's a
25 very hard to read. Thank you.
1 Q. You then gave a statement in September 2009 that you've already
2 told us you read before signing, where you indicated:
3 "We were with Generals Mladic, Perisic, and Gvero at the picnic
4 table for a couple of hours. As I stated in my previous statement,
5 Generals Gvero and Mladic were discussing the liberation of Srebrenica at
6 lunch. They did not spend much time on it. General Perisic was present
7 to hear this conversation. There were no signs of disagreement between
8 the generals. There was a lot of joking around at lunch."
9 So again in that statement, sir, you were unequivocal about the
10 fact that there had been this discussion in General Perisic's presence on
11 July 18th. And I'd like to know, sir, why it is now, today, in
12 responding to questions from Mr. Lukic that you are now no longer sure?
13 What has happened in the last month and a half?
14 A. Because I have heard all kind of and seen all kind of pictures
15 and because this was so long and going back and forth refreshing my
16 memories and discussions, and I seen that I may assume some of these
17 things through my memory. And even at that time, like I said, that I
18 wasn't sure of a lot of these things. And also --
19 Q. Well, could --
20 A. -- Mr. Lukic suggested those pictures did refresh some of my
21 memories. And even here you show me more picture than I didn't see it
23 Q. Sorry, first of all, yesterday you testified that there was this
24 discussion. So what have you seen between yesterday and today in terms
25 of photographs or videos that have changed your mind?
1 A. It's not I changed my mind. When we were talking about the
2 lunch, I actually meant when we were sitting at the table where we had
3 the lunch before, and I am not sure if we had lunch that day there or
4 not. I cannot recall exactly and say that I'm a hundred per cent sure.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But I do remember that table outside in the picnic area, that we
7 were sitting there.
8 Q. So it's the fact that you are not sure whether or not you had
9 lunch that's changed your mind as to whether or not this conversation
10 about this major victory at Srebrenica in the presence of a Serbian army
11 general took place?
12 A. Not only that, but also I think those pictures, I think all these
13 pictures that different people sitting at different places and sitting
14 with different people, that made me kind of more confused and unsure of a
15 lot of these things.
16 Q. But those pictures were shown to you yesterday before you were
17 asked the questions about the conversation at Srebrenica and then
18 yesterday you indicated that that conversation did take place?
19 A. That's why I'm saying, after seeing these pictures that you show
20 me in the last four days and some pictures that you show me on, I
21 believe, was September 9th, these pictures, they were refreshing some of
22 my memories and confusing me at the same time.
23 Q. So what pictures have you been shown here that you weren't shown
24 before you signed your statement in September 2009?
25 A. Well, I think it was -- yesterday was shown a lot of pictures
1 that I don't remember seeing them before.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Sitting outside and inside and General Mladic on the telephone,
4 and the pictures that you were showing me these, I believe, was the last
5 picture with brother Rakanovic in the room that also refreshed my memory
6 that I wasn't there at all.
7 Q. Okay. So that footage with Gorazde is something that you
8 remember not seeing before. The photographs at the picnic table, are you
9 saying that you did not see those during proofing or -- sorry, when we
10 met in September, and those are the photos at the picnic area from
11 July 19th, 1995
12 A. That's correct. I don't remember did I see all of those pictures
13 or not when I was meeting with you in Milton on September 9th.
14 Q. Okay. If I could refresh your memory, sir, from paragraph 15 of
15 this statement.
16 MS. BOLTON: If we could go back.
17 Q. You'll see a list of --
18 MS. BOLTON: If I might just have a brief indulgence,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do.
21 MS. BOLTON: If I could start with Prosecution Exhibit 02805,
22 please. Sorry, I was looking for Prosecution Exhibit 2805. I think this
23 is 65 ter 2805 that's on display.
24 Q. All right. So you'll see there's a four-digit number on that
25 photo which was entered into evidence yesterday, and it reads 0548-7248.
1 And I'm going to --
2 MS. BOLTON: If I could have next P2800, please.
3 Q. You'll see there's a number on the corner there, sir, 0548-7234?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 MS. BOLTON: If we could have P2799, please.
6 Q. Again you'll see there's a number 0548-7236 on that document?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. BOLTON: If we could have P801, please. Sorry, P2801.
9 Q. You'll see again, sir, there's a number there 0548-7238?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. BOLTON: If we could have P2802, please.
13 Q. You see there, sir, there's a number 0548-7240, do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MS. BOLTON: If we could have P2798.
16 Q. You'll see there's an ERN -- or a number there 0548-7242, do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 MS. BOLTON: If we could have P2803, please.
20 Q. You'll see there, sir, there is an ERN 0548-7244?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And then there was a series of three photographs that were in
23 black and white you were shown yesterday.
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. BOLTON: I don't know if Mr. Registrar can assist us in
1 bringing up that exhibit. We are looking for the number but I haven't
2 found it yet. This is something we dealt with in private session and
3 need to, again, go into private session for.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
5 [Private session]
6 MS. BOLTON: Mr. Harmon thinks it was P2705.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MS. BOLTON: If we could move forward to the next photograph,
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MS. BOLTON: My apologies.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you move to the next photograph, you don't
15 want to announce that number on the photograph.
16 MS. BOLTON: One moment, Your Honour. Yes, I see the number.
17 The number that appears in e-court for this photo is 06394035. However,
18 I have a copy that is stamped under a different ERN that is not the copy
19 that is in e-court.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess we are working with a copy that's in
22 MS. BOLTON: Yes. Okay. So leaving aside, then, this exhibit,
23 since the ERNs are different, we could leave that document and go back,
24 please, to 1D04-0476 to paragraph 15. And once this photo is no longer
25 displayed, we can go back into open session, please, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait for the photograph to disappear. May the
2 Chamber please move into open session.
3 MS. BOLTON: If we could go back to paragraph 15, please. I am
4 sorry, Your Honour.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Madam Bolton.
8 MS. BOLTON: My apologies, Your Honour, I got ahead of myself.
9 If I could have the next page of paragraph 15, please, in the English
11 Q. Sir, then --
12 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, paragraph 15. We've skipped a page. All
14 Q. You acknowledge now, sir, that seven of those photographs at
15 least were shown to you during proofing in -- or our meeting in
16 September 2009?
17 A. I don't recall that you show me all of them but I remember you
18 were showing me a lot of pictures. How many, I don't know.
19 Q. Okay. So then if you had seen the photos before you gave your
20 statement in September, then what is it that has changed your mind to
22 A. Changing my mind on what?
23 Q. Well, you were previously in two statements, one on audiotape and
24 one signed, unequivocal in saying that this conversation at the picnic
25 table about the victory at Srebrenica took place in the presence of
1 General Perisic. You then suggested maybe it was seeing the photographs
2 that changed your mind, made you doubt that that was true, but we've now
3 established you'd seen seven of those photographs --
4 A. I said I don't know how many. I saw some photographs that you
5 show me.
6 Q. Okay. Well, I've just shown you seven photographs that were
7 entered as exhibits that you signed a statement saying that you had seen
8 in September, so we've now established that you saw the photographs. So
9 that explanation can't be true as to what made you --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection but I would like
12 to ask for the witness to leave the courtroom. I do apologise but it's
13 about something that I mentioned in my cross-examination what the OTP are
14 putting forward, and I wouldn't like the witness to hear what I have to
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Krayishnik, will you please excuse us for a
17 short while, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I literally need half a minute. He
19 doesn't have to go far.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I merely think that it would be fair
23 if Ms. Bolton, asking the witness these questions, could remind him that
24 on the 1st of November in the proofing that he had before giving evidence
25 in this courtroom, also said that he wasn't sure about these events in
1 Srebrenica. Even when he had before him both transcripts and the
2 photographs, even then he said, and that's what I asked him in the
3 cross-examination, that he wasn't sure that there was this conversation
4 in Srebrenica, that it really took place. It would be fair to put this
5 to the witness now too, as in the previous two interviews.
6 If you remember, I read part of the note drafted by Ms. Bolton on
7 the 1st of November to the witness:
8 "[In English] Contrary to his information report of the
9 8th of September and his audio interview of the 9th of August, today the
10 witness advised that he is not sure that the conversation about
11 Srebrenica on 18 of July took place at the picnic area. It may have
12 taken place in the boardroom."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
14 MS. BOLTON: I don't think there's anything unfair. It is
15 clearly in evidence that he has said something in September, something in
16 October that was consistent. My friend led in cross-examination that he
17 wasn't sure on Sunday, but then he came to court and he testified under
18 oath that this conversation happened. So -- and now today he is again
19 recanting, and I'd like to know what happened last night.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I merely think it would be fair to
21 put this fact to the witness too. I don't want to go into what he said
22 to the OTP on Sunday about the same topic. This is confusing to the
23 witness and why avoid putting to him what he said to the Prosecutor
24 during the proofing on Sunday, the 1st.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem, Mr. Lukic, is that you are standing up
1 to object and I don't see a ground of objection. If your opposite number
2 puts questions to a witness in a way that puts your case out of kilter,
3 that's precisely the purpose of the match. You know. Now to say, No,
4 no, no, don't ask the question. You are in combat with somebody and you
5 say, No, no, no, don't shoot me on the head, shoot me on the arm.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just think I'm ready to fight,
7 Your Honours, that's not the issue. But this way, I believe she is
8 creating confusion. My objection is that she is putting two statements
9 to him without doing the same with the third and that is the reason why
10 I'm objecting. Nothing more.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the problem. You see, you have your agenda
12 when you examine the witness. She has her agenda when she examines the
13 witness. Now, when while she is examining you say, No, no, no, don't do
14 it that way, do it this way, you want her to do it your way. And the
15 whole purpose of this whole game here is that that's why she leads, you
16 cross-examine, she re-examines. When she leads, she asks according to
17 her wishes. When you cross-examine, you do so according to your wishes.
18 When she re-examines, she clarifies what she saw as misconceptions during
19 your thing, according to her wishes.
20 Now, for you to want to take over the re-examination because when
21 you say, No, don't ask it that way, ask it this way, you're actually
22 saying, Ask it the way I would like you to ask it. And I haven't found
23 this to be a ground of -- I'm meeting this for the first time in this
24 Tribunal that this is a ground of objection, and if it is at all. It's
25 uncomfortable for you because yes, she's undoing your case, or it was
1 uncomfortable for her because you were undoing her case. It's not for me
2 to say, Ask the question the way Mr. Lukic want the question asked.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I understand your position,
4 Your Honour. When I cross-examine the witness and I -- if I put forward
5 my case, the OTP also object because they don't want me to confuse the
6 witness with my questions. We all want to learn some facts from the
7 witness based on his memory. I believe that in proceeding this way, the
8 witness is being confused. It isn't about having the witness say what we
9 want him to say, but it's about eliciting accurate information from him
10 for the benefit of all of us. And then --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying -- are you saying the questions as
12 put by the Prosecutor now are an embellishment of the witness's evidence
13 to the extent of confusing the witness?
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you must say so. You must say, You are
16 embellishing the witness -- you are embellishing the evidence because
17 that's not what the witness said. You are saying the witness said A, but
18 the witness said B. And you've got to show the embellishment.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is what I wanted to say. Maybe
20 I didn't state it the way you wanted. I believe --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not the way I want it, the way it's got to be
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you see, I hope you can understand the
25 difference between what I'm suggesting and what you are saying.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully understand. I don't want to
2 suggest anything. I don't want to even to oppose the Prosecution case
3 this way.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Then if Madam Bolton has
5 embellished the witness's testimony, show her and the Court where she did
6 so. You've got to say, Here, Madam Bolton, you are wrong, that's not
7 what the witness said. This is what the witness said.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me be as brief as I can. I think
9 that's what I meant to say. Ms. Bolton put to the witness two of his
10 prior statements where he cited certain facts and now she want him to
11 explain why he changed that statement, but she did not put to him his
12 third statement where he says otherwise.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you see, you are still not saying what I'm
14 saying. You want her to put the versions that you want to put to him.
15 You are not suggesting to her that she is changing the witness's answers,
16 which is what I mean by embellishment.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think -- let me try again.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, it's already on the record, Mr. Lukic, it is
19 on record that you put several versions it to the witness. You read
20 three statements to the witness which you said are not consistent. Okay.
21 It doesn't matter whether Madam Bolton puts only one or two of those
22 statements. It is on the record. We will see it. We will see what you
23 put to him, we will see what she puts to him. But when you now interfere
24 with her re-examination, we can only get into this lengthy discussion and
25 not solve anything.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I really don't want to take more
2 time, but if she wants a general answer to a question without putting
3 everything that is relevant to that answer, then I believe she is
4 creating confusion in his mind. She wants him to give a general answer
5 why he changed his mind, putting two of his prior answers to him without
6 putting the third and that can confuse the witness. That's my point.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, do you want to answer this? The
8 objection is you've only put two versions to the witness instead of
10 MS. BOLTON: I haven't misstated anything to the witness,
11 Your Honour. And I'm --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the objection. The objection is not
13 that you misstated, the objection is -- you've been hearing me trying to
14 say to him he must show where you embellished the evidence. He is not
15 saying so. He is saying the witness has given three versions. You are
16 putting only two instead of three to him. Well, if you say four then --
17 yeah. But that's his -- that's the --
18 MS. BOLTON: That's not a legal objection.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've been hearing me talk to him.
20 MS. BOLTON: I have, Your Honour, and --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just asking you to -- is that your response?
22 MS. BOLTON: My response is that is not a --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not an objection.
24 MS. BOLTON: -- legal objection. I have a right to ask
25 questions. Unless I misstate the evidence to the witness, there is then
1 there's no proper basis for an objection.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I am afraid, Mr. Lukic, I must overrule your
3 objection. May the witness come in, please.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 MS. BOLTON:
6 Q. Sir, I'm sure by now you've long forgotten my question, so let me
7 go back to it. We've established, sir, that you gave a statement on
8 August 9th, 2009
9 for a discussion at the picnic table area of the victory of Srebrenica
10 that was taking place between Generals Mladic and Gvero. We've
11 established that you gave a signed statement on September -- signed on
12 September 10th, 2009
13 your testimony you again confirmed that that conversation took place.
14 And then today you gave a different response under oath than what you
15 gave yesterday, that you indicated you were not sure if it's true, and
16 when I asked for an explanation you suggested it was perhaps seeing the
17 photographs that changed your mind. And we've now established that the
18 photographs of the picnic area had been shown to you before you signed
19 your statement back in September.
20 So is there any other explanation you can offer as to why you are
21 now unsure?
22 A. Because I noticed through my statements from August and on that
23 my memory wasn't serving me properly, and that I, like I mentioned, being
24 confused to some of these pictures and questions, and that is my answer.
25 Q. Sir, did you have any communication with anybody from Canada
2 A. I only had a call from my daughter last night around 10.00.
3 Q. Okay. Are you and Mr. Lesic still friends?
4 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I see him from time to time.
5 Q. Okay. Do you socialise --
6 A. We are not house friends. We are not visiting each other at
7 homes or anything like that.
8 Q. Do you see him from time to time in social gatherings?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How close to one another do you live?
11 A. I don't know, maybe 20 miles.
12 Q. When did you last speak to him?
13 A. I think a week before I came here.
14 Q. And what did you speak about?
15 A. We were talking about some church stuff that we are involved in
16 parishes and diocese.
17 Q. Have you talked to him at all about the fact that you had been
18 interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor?
19 A. Yes, I did mention to him. Actually he told me that he spoke to
20 you before and I think I told you that at the Sunday that you called me
21 to meet you in Etobicoke, that he -- that we were together on some picnic
22 in Hamilton
23 by you.
24 Q. Okay. So you were aware that he had been interviewed, and did
25 you make him aware of the fact that you had also been interviewed?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Did you discuss your evidence?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Did he discuss his evidence?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how this has anything to
8 do with my cross-examination, this whole line of questioning.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
10 MS. BOLTON: I would indicate that I was investigating what
11 contact the witness may have had last night and what contact he has had
12 since he gave his original statements. And we know he has vacillated
13 from his original statements, so it's relevant to that issue.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But he has given you an explanation why he has
15 vacillated, and I don't know how what you are now asking about relates to
16 his explanation.
17 MS. BOLTON: Well, I'm entitled, am I not, to probe the
18 explanation that he has given, Your Honour?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are quite entitled to probe his explanation.
20 However, I just don't see the link between his explanation and the
21 present probing. He attributes his change of evidence to the confusion
22 that arises from -- there were lots of questions that he has got, the
23 many interviews that he has had, the various photographs that he has been
24 shown, the videos that have been shown, which obviously give him a
25 slightly different picture from what he remembered from his own memory,
1 unassisted by all those aids.
2 Now, the probing seems to suggest in fact that the reason for his
3 change of behind is much beyond that, but by some factor outside what he
4 has said caused the confusion. That's why I say I don't see the link.
5 And before Mr. Lukic stood up, I was almost asking you where are we going
6 with all that but I said, well, let me keep quiet.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MS. BOLTON: Your Honour, I think I understood your explanation
9 of the witness's answer more clearly than I understood the witness. I
10 can indicate with respect to this line of questioning, I don't intend to
11 pursue it any further, but I do wish to change my mind on a position I
12 took earlier which was now that the witness has raised the issue of
13 suggesting that he was confused in the previous interviews and what he
14 was shown, I do think, then, I am going to be seeking to tender portions
15 of the September and August interviews to the Court for the --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The statements?
17 MS. BOLTON: Yes, the previous statements.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's up to you.
19 MS. BOLTON: With respect to the statement of 8th September 2009
20 I would be seeking to tender -- this is 1D04-0461, paragraphs 10, 14, 15,
21 16, 18, 20, 21. Those are all paragraphs in which there is discussion of
22 what he is shown.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done?
24 MS. BOLTON: I'm just double-checking, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
25 Yes, those are the paragraphs, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. ID -- I beg your pardon,
2 Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's not an objection, Your Honour,
4 but since this is an exception, generally speaking, in keeping with your
5 guide-lines we don't normally admit parts of statements, but I would in
6 this case ask for his proofing note of the 1st of November to be admitted
7 as well in its entirety. Although for me personally what is on the
8 record is quite sufficient, but I don't mind -- I don't object to the
9 admission of those passages the Prosecutor is tendering.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we do things one step at a time. If you want
11 to tender the proofing note, can you wait and tender it -- okay.
12 1D04-0461, all those paragraphs, are admitted into evidence. May
13 that please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This document becomes Exhibit P2810. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. 2810.
16 Yes, Madam Bolton, you are going to tender something else.
17 MS. BOLTON: I am, Your Honour. If I may just have a moment to
18 locate the passages. I apologise, I need about two minutes here.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not a problem.
20 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you are doing that, Mr. Lukic, would you
22 like to tender something?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to tender the
24 record of the interview -- rather, the proofing note of the 1st of
25 November marked OTP Info Report 01112009. And let me avail myself of
1 this opportunity to suggest something else, namely to admit a short
2 video-clip, 65 ter 9559 from 00 until 00.21 seconds. That's yesterday's
3 page 96, if you remember the luncheon, the plates. 9615 is the
4 transcript page from yesterday.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just confirm, the first document you want
6 admitted is 01112009. It's not 01112229? Okay. That is admitted into
7 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes
9 Exhibit D193. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Now, Mr. Lukic, you also
11 want to have admitted into evidence 9559 from 0 minutes to .21 minutes.
12 MR. LUKIC: No, sorry, Your Honour, 65 ter 9599.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: 99. Okay.
14 MR. LUKIC: From 00 to 021 seconds.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. Okay. That's 65 ter 9599 from
16 0 minute to .21 minutes, it's admitted into evidence. May it please be
17 given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That becomes Exhibit D194, thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Madam Bolton, are you ready?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon? Sorry? Madam Bolton, are you
23 MS. BOLTON: I think so.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may go ahead.
25 MS. BOLTON: Dealing with the transcript of 9th August 2009,
1 which is 1D04-0476, if we -- if I could have -- and I apologise because
2 my print pages don't correspond with e-court, could you display again for
3 me, please, page 20 of the English transcript. Sorry, I'm looking for
4 page 20 still. I'm sure -- Mr. Registrar looks like he is having
5 problems. There we have it. Could you scroll down, please. Could you
6 go to page 21, please. Okay. Starting at line 18, then, of page 21, if
7 you could continue to page -- yeah, of page 21. Could you continue to
8 page 22, please.
9 If we could tender just up to line 11 there, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: From where?
11 MS. BOLTON: Page 20 -- sorry, we are on 22, aren't we?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say tender up to line 11, where did you
14 MS. BOLTON: From the previous page, the line number I had
15 indicated which was page 21, line 18, to page 22, line 11.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Those pages are tendered in. May they be,
17 please, given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document becomes
19 Exhibit P2811. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MS. BOLTON: And then if we could go, please, again in e-court to
22 page 31.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of the same statement?
24 MS. BOLTON: Same statement, yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you just mention all pages of the same
1 statement like you did with the previous exhibit, and then we can admit
2 them all under 2811.
3 MS. BOLTON: Oh, yes, I will.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that.
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go through them and tell them to the Registrar.
7 MS. BOLTON: And I just -- I'm sorry, I can't do this based on
8 the print transcript because it doesn't correspond.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But go through all your pages and then --
10 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I will. Sorry, are we on page 31 now? 32,
11 please try. Okay. Going to start at line 5 on page 32, continue to
12 page 33, please. To the end of that page, please, which is page 33,
13 line 33.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, which between the B/C/S and English
16 is the original here?
17 MS. BOLTON: The English is the original, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MS. BOLTON: Those are the only segments I'm seeking to have
20 admitted, thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: They have been given Exhibit number P2811. Thank
24 you so much. That's it?
25 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence, Your Honour. Thank you for the
1 indulgence, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome. You are still on your
4 MS. BOLTON: I am, thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Move on to another area, sir. Did you ever physically see
6 General Perisic get in a car or a helicopter to leave Han Pijesak -- or
7 Crna Rijeka on the 18th of July, 1995?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. My friend when he was asking you about the timing of the exchange
10 on July 18th of the motorcar parts, he suggested you weren't sure if that
11 happened before or after -- he said you can't remember either whether
12 that video-clip about the hand-over of medication and spare parts was
13 before or after your encounter with Mr. Perisic.
14 MS. BOLTON: I'd like to display 65 ter 9606 to see if it
15 refreshes your memory. And the page numbers, I guess once you get there,
16 I'll assist with you the page numbers. In B/C/S it's page 93, and in
17 English it's page 42.
18 Q. You see, sir, that there is an indication in this document of
19 18 July 1995
20 didn't take you to page 1 of this document, but this is an excerpt of
21 Radovan Karadzic's diary.
22 Did you meet with Dr. Karadzic at the scheduled time or not?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. You don't remember.
25 MS. BOLTON: Okay. I'm done. If that just one page could be
1 tendered into evidence, please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
3 given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document becomes
5 Exhibit P2812.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. BOLTON: I haven't much further to go, Your Honour, but it is
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much further do you have to go?
10 MS. BOLTON: I think about 5 minutes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is some housekeeping that the Chamber would
12 like to raise with the parties. It might take another 10. We can either
13 go for another 15 minutes and then break for good, or come back for
14 another 15 minutes after.
15 MS. BOLTON: If we could have just a few minutes, Your Honour,
16 that would be my preference at least.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Go ahead.
18 MS. BOLTON: I am sorry, by that I meant -- by that I meant if we
19 could take the break for a few minutes, that would assist me. I'm not
20 being very clear, I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's take the break and come back at the normal
22 time, half past 12.00. Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Last area, sir. When Mr. Lukic was questioning you the other
3 day, he asked you if you'd had the opportunity, in Canada, to follow the
4 reporting of various media organisations about what was going on in the
5 former Yugoslavia
6 based on the information you received, personally or from your friends or
7 through the Serbian media, that you formed an opinion that the western
8 media was partial and that they favoured the Croatian Muslim sides and
9 the Serbs were to blame for everything. And you agreed with that
11 Do you recall that line of questioning, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do. And I still agree.
13 Q. I want to ask you, sir, if there were reports in the western
14 media to the effect that there had been thousands of Muslim men and boys
15 murdered in Srebrenica after it was liberated?
16 A. Would you repeat the question, please.
17 Q. Were you aware of reports in the western media that there were
18 thousands of Muslim men and boys murdered in Srebrenica after it was
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you consider the reporting of those killings of Muslim men at
22 Srebrenica to be biased or inaccurate?
23 A. Yes, I believe it was biased and inaccurate.
24 Q. What did you believe?
25 A. I believe it and I come to the conclusion when they were looking
1 for the mass graves and all this, that they were led by the Muslim
2 organisation to the graves, mass graves. And my opinion was, how would
3 they know where those mass graves were if they were not there? And my --
4 in Serbian media is believe that those was mass graves Serbs who was
5 killed by Naser Oric during the four years war, and that they led them to
6 those mass graves. From that hearing and on the news and people, I
7 believe that was possible.
8 Q. So you believed that the mass graves that were uncovered in the
9 area of Srebrenica were actually mass graves of Serbs who had been
10 killed; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that a belief you still hold, sir?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And you said that was based on what you saw on the news and
15 people, what people told you that?
16 A. Well, the people that they were watching more news and watching
17 the war more than I did.
18 Q. Who was that?
19 A. Well, in the general conversation with the -- whenever you meet
20 or talk to the people. That was the people's opinion.
21 Q. Okay. The people being whom?
22 A. The Serbian people to Canada
23 Q. Okay. Do you believe, sir, that there were thousands of Muslim
24 men and boys killed at Srebrenica then at all?
25 A. I believe they was killed, but I believe there were more killed
1 in action.
2 Q. You believe there were some killed, but you don't believe there
3 were mass executions of civilians; is that fair?
4 A. Right.
5 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Bolton.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Just wait for the interpretation
9 to end. A few questions to ask, Witness. You are from Bosnia, of the
10 area of Sarajevo
11 A. Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Have you returned there since you
13 left in the 1960s, except during the war?
14 A. I return first time 1972, and then I was imprisoned by the
15 Yugoslav government for a week.
16 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And after that you returned during
17 the 1990s?
18 A. I return -- my second return was 1985 when my sister passed away
19 in Sarajevo
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Right. So you kept some ties,
21 some important ties with Bosnia
22 A. I didn't keep close ties because second return, when I went to
23 the funeral of my sister, two days after funeral, I was again detained
24 and put in jail for a few days. And on the intervention of the Canadian
25 government, through the Canadian embassy, I was let go.
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Right. Going to the ties you have
2 with Bosnia
3 events during the war in the former Yugoslavia
4 A. Yes, I was watching the news whenever I had the time.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] When you left to Belgrade
6 the scanner, you left on what day, on the 15th or the 16th of July, 1995?
7 A. You mean if I left -- when I left Canada for Yugoslavia
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
9 A. I believe I left on the 14th of July.
10 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So you left -- I think we were
11 already speaking about the Srebrenica events in all medias, on all medias
12 in the world, so you knew what was going on at the time there.
13 A. I didn't because I had no access to media, those --
14 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] In Canada?
15 A. In Canada
16 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You don't have television in
18 A. I have a television in Canada
19 watch it because we were preparing to --
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And you didn't read the newspapers
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For somebody who comes from Bosnia
24 and knowing that there is a war on and knowing that you are going there
25 to bring humanitarian aid, isn't it a bit strange that you be so ignorant
1 of the events which were going on in this specific place, specific part
2 of the world?
3 A. Well, that's the way it was, so it's -- there's only so many
4 hours and so many things to be done. I rarely read the papers because I
5 don't have the time. And when I watch the news, it would be in the
6 evening, depends how long days I had and hours working.
7 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, in fact you were
8 practically completely ignorant of the events in former Yugoslavia
9 A. I was so upset with the previous Yugoslavian government, when
10 they announced that they were going to have a free election like they did
11 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was happy to see the communist regime will fell
12 and I expect that anything that comes out would be better than what it
13 was when I left the country.
14 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This was not my question, but I
15 understand your point of view. Therefore, you are telling us that when
16 you left on the 14th of July to Belgrade
17 going on in Bosnia
18 A. I knew there was war there, but I didn't know where was the major
19 war or where was the major fighting, that is true.
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You know that coming from Bosnia
21 to go from Belgrade
22 Srebrenica, don't you?
23 A. When I arrived in Belgrade
24 not able to get the scanner to arrive to Belgrade, and we waited for a
25 couple of days for scanner to arrive from Bulgaria to Belgrade
1 were preoccupied with those things. And I really didn't know that was a
2 fight against Srebrenica.
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This I understood, that you were
4 ignorant of everything that was going on in Bosnia, but what I wanted to
5 know is that do you know that -- you knew that Srebrenica was a Muslim
6 enclave, that was no news to you?
7 A. I didn't know that was an enclave. I didn't know that it was --
8 it wasn't liberated before until I arrived into Belgrade when we had
9 the -- when we met -- not Belgrade
10 General Mladic.
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm reverting to my former
12 question. You know that to go from Belgrade
13 through the enclave of Srebrenica, liberated or not?
14 A. I never went to Srebrenica to Han Pijesak.
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about the town,
16 I'm talking about the enclave.
17 A. Yeah, but my answer is that -- are you asking me did I go to
18 Srebrenica to Han Pijesak, I said no. I never did go to enclave of
19 Srebrenica to Han Pijesak.
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You know a bit of geography, don't
21 you? So you have some notion, you know Bosnia. You know what are the
22 ways to go to Han Pijesak. You know the roads pass by the area of
23 Srebrenica, don't you?
24 A. Very little I knew geography of Yugoslavia, and to be honest, I
25 don't remember even hearing the name of the Srebrenica until I heard it
1 was liberated.
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So you continue to affirm that to
3 go from Belgrade
4 see any combat, you didn't hear firing, people were not stressed because
5 there was no problem, as if you were travelling in a free country --
6 peaceful country?
7 A. We -- I went to that area a few times previously and there was no
8 different this time than what it was before. We were never stopped
9 anywhere on the way to Han Pijesak and Pale through Zvornik, Bijeljina
10 and -- Bijeljina, Zvornik and Vlasenica.
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right. I'll ask a question on
12 another topic. When you were in Han Pijesak, General Perisic came on the
13 18th of July, didn't he? I mean, it's not a question, it's an
14 affirmation. Do you think that he came to see you at Han Pijesak or for
15 other reasons?
16 A. Definitely not me, and for what reason he came, I didn't know.
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] He came to meet General Mladic and
18 the other generals from Bosnia
19 Canadian delegation which just a few days before was in Belgrade?
20 A. Your Honour, could you repeat the question.
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This is my question: Do you think
22 that General Perisic came to meet the Canadian delegation in Han Pijesak
23 on July 18th or whether he came to meet General Mladic and the other
24 Bosnian generals?
25 A. You are asking for my opinion why did he came? I said I don't
1 know why did he came and I only assume that he come to see [overlapping
2 speakers] --
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For tourism? He didn't go for
4 tourism, he didn't go there to see you?
5 A. That's right, so that's why I'm saying, why was he there? He
6 must have been there to see Mladic -- General Mladic and his associates.
7 So I assume that. But I never asked him -- I never asked anybody why was
8 he there or what was he doing there or anything like that.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And you never saw them talking
10 together during the entire time you spent there?
11 A. You mean General Ratko Mladic and General Momcilo Perisic?
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For example, yes, those two?
13 A. I didn't see them that they were standing and talk together. I
14 didn't see them.
15 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have no other questions. Thank
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge. Am I right, sir, I'm not quite
18 sure I'm absolutely right, that a few minutes ago when Madam Lorna was
19 asking you about the western media, you said that yes, the western media
20 was biased and inaccurate?
21 A. Yeah.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You saw this media?
23 A. I saw the media from time to time whenever I had --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, sure, but you did see the media --
25 A. Yeah.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- you did read the media --
2 A. Yeah.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and you came to the conclusion in fact that
4 your analysis of how they were reporting was incorrect?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you actually came to the conclusion that lots
7 of people that are said to have died in Srebrenica are the 4.000 people
8 that were killed by Naser Oric?
9 A. Your Honour, could you repeat the question, I didn't hear it.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also came to the conclusion that the mass of
11 people who were found in graves, that you say were found in graves, must
12 have been people who were killed by Naser Oric, the 4.000 Serbs that were
13 killed by Naser Oric, because according to you, you just said --
14 A. Yeah, that was my --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- how would they know otherwise if they were the
17 A. That was my conclusion, yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. And am I right also in saying that you've
19 just been answering the Judge's questions and you are saying that you
20 didn't see the media, you had no access to media when you were in Canada
21 and you knew nothing about what was happening in Srebrenica?
22 A. I was watching the media but I -- from time to time.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you -- I'm not asking -- that's not
24 my question. I'm not asking you if you were watching the media. I'm
25 asking you if, am I right that you have just been answering questions
1 from the Judge and saying to her that you didn't see the media, you
2 didn't know anything about what was happening in Srebrenica during that
4 A. No, that's true. That is correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, of these two versions, the one that you told
6 Madam Lorna and the one that you are telling this Judge, which is true?
7 A. Truth is, when I was watching the news from time to time, we -- I
8 had a conclusions that --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that's not -- that's not the version you have
11 A. [Overlapping speakers] --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the version you have given, sir. You
13 said to Madam Lorna, you watched the news, you analysed the news and you
14 came to certain conclusions. You say to the Judge you never watched the
15 news because you had no access to the media.
16 A. I meant that I never watched the news when I was on the way from
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course you are not going to watch the news when
19 you were on your way to Canada
20 A. That's what I meant, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Judge actually asked the question: "In
23 question mark?" Did you hear him say that? She asked you about the TV,
24 television you had --
25 A. Yeah, she asked me about --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- in Canada
2 A. Yes, she asked me about newspapers.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. Now surely she's not asking you
4 about TV and newspapers in a plane coming to Srebrenica. She is asking
5 you about when you were in Canada
6 A. But, Your Honour, she asked me about did I heard anything about
7 Srebrenica, did I know about the enclave of Srebrenica. I don't recall
8 that I heard any special news about Srebrenica or anything or
9 [overlapping speakers] -- the wars and stuff like that.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: She asked about the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
11 in --
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Srebrenica, events in former Yugoslavia.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you said you had no access to the media?
16 A. I meant access to media when I was on the plane. I didn't mean
17 the access to the media when I was in Canada.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I have no further questions to you.
19 Madam Lorna, any questions arising from the Bench's questions.
20 MS. BOLTON: Two questions, Your Honour.
21 Further Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
22 Q. When Justice Picard was asking you a question, sir, about your
23 travel to Han Pijesak from Belgrade
24 that there was nothing remarkable about the journey. It was no different
25 than previous trips you had made. And I want to remind you of the
1 answer, the information you gave in your statement, your audio statement
2 of August 9th, 2009
3 read it to you. Mr. Nicholls was asking you:
4 "On this July 1995, do you remember that you had to take a
5 certain route because there was still Muslim soldiers from Srebrenica who
6 were in the woods? They were --"
7 And then you said:
8 "They did say that there was a road that they -- that they were
9 taking a road -- that they -- that cannot go there because it's unsafe
10 with the Srebrenica soldiers. Muslim soldiers were dispersed all over
11 the place. And that he says like hijacking anybody were, you know,
12 shooting on the spot. So they took some different route. I don't
13 remember that -- that they were talking, but I didn't know which road
14 they took."
15 Do you recall being asked that question and giving that answer in
16 August, sir?
17 A. I recall some questions that you put but I don't recall all this
18 answer that you are saying that I said. I recall the answer that you
19 were putting to me, did you go to Bratunac, and I replied that I -- that
20 we went to the usual road that we went through Zvornik and Vlasenica,
21 that I don't think that --
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. BOLTON: If I could see page 28, please, of ID 1D04-0476,
24 please. Could you go in e-court then to the following page --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MS. BOLTON: My apologies. Could you go to page 29 in e-court,
2 please. The passage I've just read to the witness appears at
3 lines 8 to 23 of the transcript that's before the Court, and I'd ask that
4 that be marked in evidence.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted in evidence. May it please be given
6 an exhibit number.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you sure this paragraph is not one of those
9 that you've already tendered, ma'am?
10 MS. BOLTON: I am -- no, I don't believe I've tendered this, sir.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Then this paragraph will be added to
13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. And finally, sir, do you recall attending a proofing session on
15 the 1st November 2009
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. BOLTON: And if I could have information report, I understand
19 it's 02112009, if that document could be brought up, please. It
20 should --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 0211?
22 MS. BOLTON: I'm told it's OTP Information Report 02112009.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It is D193, for the record. Thank you.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it can't be. D193 is 01112009. You are
2 calling for 02112009.
3 MS. BOLTON: Yes, thank you.
4 Could you, please, Mr. Registrar, go to the second page of this
6 Q. You recognise the signature on that page, sir?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Did you review this document before you signing it, sir?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Okay. And sir, I'm going to suggest with you that when we met
11 with you on the weekend that you indicated that you believed when you
12 left Belgrade
13 eventually travelled through Konjevic Polje to Vlasenica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is that true, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. BOLTON: I have nothing further. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Lukic?
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you start, Mr. Lukic, do you want to
21 do anything with that document, ma'am? Madam Bolton?
22 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence, please, Your Honour. It's just
23 that one passage that I wanted to rely on and I've read it into the
24 record, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to switch the
2 witness's sound to channel 6.
3 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. I hope that this is my last question to you, Witness. I only
5 have one.
6 Witness, you answered Judge Picard that you didn't follow the
7 media before leaving on the trip, that you say that you departed on the
8 14th of July before the events at Srebrenica. Then Judge Moloto put
9 the -- put your statement to you that it was your opinion that the mass
10 graves found around Srebrenica, in fact, contained the bodies of the
11 victims of Naser Oric?
12 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
13 Q. So you were actually confronted with your own statements. If the
14 first information about mass killings were -- appeared in the western
15 media in August of 1995, is it possible that you received that
16 information after returning to Canada
17 A. [Interpretation] I don't remember.
18 Q. But throughout these years you -- you followed the information
19 about the mass killings at Srebrenica from the western media and various
21 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
22 Q. And from that information you arrived at the conclusion that you
23 formulated in your opinion about these mass killings?
24 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir, that brings us to the end of your
3 testimony, sir. Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.
4 You are now excused. You may stand down. Please travel well back home.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are welcome.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: A few housekeeping matters.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether
11 for the record we should note what I have read out with regard to your
12 guide-lines from Article 12, that these are based on the statements of
13 witness Milan Lesic, because according to Rule 12, we must refer to the
14 witness and the witness statement when mentioning such information.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that's it. You did mention -- we did see
16 when you put it on the ELMO -- on the screen who it was. Thank you so
17 much, Mr. Lukic.
18 A few things that we probably need to raise for purposes of
19 planning. I guess we are nearing the close of the Prosecution case from
20 the messages that we have been getting and that raises the question what
21 the plans are from the Defence side for the near future. And I just
22 don't want to mention certain stages; I would like them to be mentioned
23 by you first, before I mention them.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Speaking about the near future, I
25 suppose that you expect me to state my position to what is at the
1 disposal of the Defence until the end of the OTP case, and whether we are
2 to apply Rule 98 bis, that's what I understand to be your first question.
3 Unfortunately, today I'm not yet in the position to give you my
4 final answer but I will very soon. These days I have talked a lot with
5 Mr. Perisic and I mentioned this topic too. Mr. Guy-Smith isn't here,
6 but he will return soon and I would like to consult him. But next week
7 we'll probably have a witness for a day or two and then I will give you
8 the final position of the Defence with regard to Rule 98 bis, if that is
9 indeed your first question.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, on that. You read
11 me correctly. Past that we -- there's going to be some disclosures that
12 I have to come from the Defence to the Prosecution, you know, witness
13 summaries and witness lists and what have you. About how soon do you
14 think this may be forthcoming?
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Am I to state my opinion now? I
16 must --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can state your plans to the extent that they
18 are --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. I have a small
20 reservation because today we received the fourth application from the OTP
21 for a bar table motion. It is the OTP case, too, also that affects our
22 plans. We must formulate our reply to the bar table motions of the OTP
23 and this requires certain consultation. If I'm required to state my
24 intention as to the submission of a list of witnesses, or rather,
25 drafting a pre-Defence brief that includes a list of witnesses and the
1 documents we intend to use during the Defence case, I would kindly ask
2 for the dead-line to be the 15th of December.
3 Once the OTP case is completed, that we may have 30 days to draft
4 that submission. I hope that the Chamber will agree with that because it
5 is intended for this trial to be continued after the 18th of January, so
6 the Defence will have time enough to submit its evidence.
7 Two things matter to us. In the forthcoming period, we must
8 interview witnesses that the Defence had contacted in the pre-trial stage
9 through a longer period of time. But Mr. Guy-Smith and I have to talk
10 about that. You know when Mr. Guy-Smith joined the Defence team, it was
11 at the beginning of the trial, and we want to have a joint decision about
12 each and every witness of ours who is to be put on the list. I believe
13 we cannot do that unless we are in the field less than 30 days together.
14 But after such a period, we can submit that list and then the OTP
15 will have time to prepare once we start with the Defence case after the
16 court recess. I don't know -- that is, I know that the recess will not
17 really be a vacation time either for us or the OTP, but I am afraid that
18 cannot be avoided.
19 I'm being very realistic now, I'm not asking for more hoping to
20 get a little less. We now have to work very actively and we have to make
21 a joint effort to achieve results. And one more thing. A large number
22 of documents has been sent to be translated and we are still waiting for
23 the translations. We can submit a list of documents, but unless they are
24 officially translated by the time when the OTP can begin getting
25 acquainted for them, then, I don't know. So we'll try to have the
1 translation service to be completed as soon as possible. 99 per cent,
2 approximately, of these documents are in Serbian, so we need the English
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have raised a number of issues. You have made
5 certain assumptions and you have revealed certain information, so can I
6 hold you to what you just said about the start of the Defence case, which
7 I hadn't asked yet, that it will be as we come back from the recess?
8 Irrespective of whether or not there's going to be a 98 bis, or whether
9 or not the summaries and witness lists are ready, we will start the
10 Defence case when we come back from recess? Can I hold you on to that?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That seems to matter to you most.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It does matter -- well, what matters to me is
13 finishing the trial. So if you -- when I get a date that is sweet in the
14 mouth, I want to hang on to it.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I also want to -- this trial to
16 finish and without major interruptions, and you have my word that on the
17 18th of January we can start with the Defence case. If next week we
18 finish and if the period for deciding under Rule 98 bis -- I don't expect
19 a longer period to be attributed to us or granted to us under Rule 98
20 bis, and it's in these --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I appreciate that very much. In fact, I
22 usually -- 98 bis shouldn't take more than five minutes actually.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have experience with that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In my tradition.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In my tradition there is no such
1 thing, I learned it -- I learned about this here in this Tribunal.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just skip it, if you don't know it.
3 Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic, I really do appreciate that start
4 of the Defence case time that you give.
5 Let's just find out, Mr. Harmon, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Lukic is asking
6 for the 15th of December to give you the summaries of statements and
7 witness lists, and he has already indicated that we are starting when we
8 come back from recess. That's enough for you to prepare your
10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, that is a generous offer of Mr. Lukic
11 to offer the 65 ter obligations that are found in 65 ter (G), which are
12 quite extensive, three days or four days before the beginning of the
13 holiday season when we will have nobody here essentially, because people
14 will be away and we will be considerably disabled in terms of staffing.
15 So, in our view, in order to prepare sufficiently, December 15th seems to
16 be a little bit far out for us. In fact, we will be quite limited and
17 our preparations will be limited, because we have to obviously do
18 enormous preparations.
19 On the other -- to put it on the other foot, the Defence received
20 from the Prosecution a witness list, an exhibit list, a summary --
21 witness summaries, probably a year ahead of time, so to ask us to be
22 prepared adequately in light of two holidays that will take place
23 following the 15th, the Christian holiday and the Orthodox holiday, when
24 we will be understaffed in this office, really quite seriously restricts
25 us. And in our view, Your Honour, between now, the Defence has had a
1 considerable amount of time to consider their Defence. We've had
2 considerable number of gaps in the case due to the Prosecution, which I
3 regret, but nevertheless, that has afforded the Defence considerable
4 opportunity to prepare these submissions which they knew were coming. In
5 our view, Your Honour, the submissions under 65 ter (G) should be given
6 to the Prosecution well before the 15th of December.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we are perhaps going too deep
8 into the matter. Maybe the Chamber did not want this much detail, but it
9 is even theoretically impossible for us to write the brief in less than
10 30 days from the end of the Prosecution case. It's completely
11 impossible. If we tried, it would end up with us writing a brief, a
12 pre-Defence brief, I mean, including the list of witnesses and the list
13 of exhibits, and the summaries, 65 ter summaries which we are supposed to
14 submit in the form of pre-Defence brief. We have to make decisions, we
15 have to talk to people, and we have to prepare the documents.
16 Mr. Harmon says -- I'm happy actually to hear that. You will
17 remember the beginning of the trial when the Defence said we needed four
18 days to prepare and there were certain hitches, and there were certain
19 windows within the trial that gave us time to prepare, but we did not
20 have them. Even court recesses and holidays did not exist for this
21 Defence team. I think these past three weeks when we did not have court
22 sessions were the first time I had the opportunity to work in the field.
23 And I will not be able to celebrate Christmas or any other holiday. Now,
24 but that's life. It's just coincidence that the end of the Prosecution
25 case falls at Christmas or just before Christmas, but I think the end of
1 recess is after the new year. They will have another three weeks after
2 the holidays -- they will have another three weeks to prepare after the
3 15th of December, I think if Mr. Harmon receives documents on the
4 15th of December, he will still have ample time to prepare, and they will
5 at least be able to prepare for the first witnesses. That's what we did.
6 Of course we didn't prepare for all the witnesses in advance. We
7 prepared for the first batch of witnesses.
8 Our team, such as it is, cannot prepare a good quality, complete
9 pre-Defence brief in less time. We have to make certain 65 ter
10 submissions, and we have to make decisions, to be economical. I really
11 mean it when I say that we cannot do to any earlier. Perhaps we could
12 start with our case a week later, if that week would mean enough to the
13 Prosecution. We could perhaps make opening statements and hold the
14 pre-Defence conference, but if we are to start on the 15th of January,
15 then we need at least a month.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I hear what -- no, you may sit. I hear
17 what you say. I actually do find it a little difficult to understand
18 that anybody comes into court to defend a case and hear Prosecution
19 version of the case and that person is not ready at the close of the
20 Prosecution case to call his witness, if he has any to call. What I'm
21 trying to say is, I don't expect that only after the close of the
22 Prosecution case are you only going to interview witnesses; I expect this
23 work should have been going on all the time. Even before the case
24 started, that you should be having certain witnesses that you have lined
25 up, at least your major witnesses, that you can reveal to the Prosecution
1 much earlier with their summary statements and what have you. If nothing
2 else, at least to enable them to prepare for the first few witnesses.
3 And I'm sure that you should be able to give those before the 15th. Even
4 if it's not the full list because, otherwise, unless you were coming to
5 this case expecting an acquittal at the close of the Prosecution case,
6 then I understand if you say, I don't have any witness at this stage.
7 But if you are expecting that there is a case to meet and you may have to
8 call witnesses, then I expect by the time you say, I accept your brief,
9 Mr. Perisic, I'm going to defend you, you are having in your consultation
10 with him at that time, you have already found out from him who are the
11 witnesses that he can line up for himself, and you go and see those
12 witnesses and find out what they can say.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me tell you straightaway,
14 Your Honour Judge Moloto, we are in -- even back in the pre-trial stage,
15 I completed interviews with a great number of witnesses, in the pre-trial
16 stage when we had holidays. But now I have to re-interview these
17 witnesses in a completely different way in view of the great number of
18 documents that have been exhibited here. You have seen how many new
19 documents have been added to the 65 ter list since the beginning of the
20 trial. It is not in dispute that these are very important documents.
21 And I can't now just leave it at the first interview when I had a
22 completely different picture back then about our case, about the matters,
23 and not re-interview these people now when I have a completely different
24 picture and knowledge about a great number of other documents.
25 Of course I have a number of people whom I want to put on the
1 list certainly, and I can make available to Mr. Harmon a certain number
2 of names to begin with, but that will not be meeting with the
3 requirements, the complete 65 ter list and the complete list of witnesses
4 and exhibits.
5 My problem is that right now, my investigator, myself and my
6 associates who know the Serbian language can go -- have to go through
7 certain documents that have in the meantime been provided -- sorry, to
8 decide whether to send them for translation or not. That's a great
9 amount of work.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to close the discussion. Two points I
11 want to make with you. One, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't
12 re-interview your witnesses. You can -- you are perfect entitled to
13 re-interview them after all the documents you've seen. Re-interviewing
14 them, does it interfere with your decision whether you are going to call
15 them or not? If you have decided you are going to call them, you have
16 decided you are going to call them. You can give the list to Mr. Harmon,
17 say, I'm going to be calling these witnesses. All you need to do is just
18 to go and re-interview them, but you know who they are, they are the
19 witnesses. So you can give the list. You can give, I don't know, maybe
20 you might say the re-interview might interfere with the witness
21 summaries, depending on what topics they are likely to cover, given what
22 you are still going to talk to them that's new to them, but a witness
23 list and a witness summaries are things that change all the time as the
24 case goes on. They have been doing it. So as time goes on, you are
25 going to be adding, particularly they know in the beginning that you
1 haven't given the full list. You've given them the first few witnesses.
2 Then they expect more witnesses to come later and what have you. That's
3 all I'm asking for, just so that we can get the case started. Is that
4 okay? So then we are agreed on that.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's fine.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask one last point. And I know it depends
7 again on the number of witnesses that you are going to be calling, and I
8 know that you may not have the full number right now, ball-park figures,
9 what do you estimate the length of the Defence case to be? One witness
10 and then you close?
11 MR. LUKIC: No.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really -- I really can't answer
14 this question. I don't know how much I would commit myself and give you
15 a stick to beat me with later. Anyway, we won't ask for the same number
16 of hours as you gave to the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I hold to you that one?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will not be asking -- I think over
19 300 hours have been approved to the Prosecution, I don't know how much
20 they asked for. Let's not beat, possibly.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Possibly? You are not able to give an idea? Are
22 you able to give a figure, an idea --
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Several months.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Several months, whatever "several" means.
25 12 months would be several months?
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really have to be very cautious.
2 With a lot of reservation, I'm saying that if we work five days a week,
3 if we don't make as many long breaks as the Prosecution made, because
4 it's our aim also to finish the trial as soon as possible because of the
5 pressure on Mr. Perisic as well, I think four or five months.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the idea. We will not hold you to it.
7 Thank you, but it gives us an idea.
8 Mr. Harmon, are we likely to rest the Prosecution case next week?
9 MR. HARMON: Yes, subject to decisions on certain outstanding
10 motions, Your Honour. But in terms of the calling of witnesses, yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is the last witness who is coming?
12 MR. HARMON: Yes, the next witness will be the last witness. And
13 I have informed the Court Officer that we are going to review the
14 evidence of this witness in relation to the proposed evidence of the next
15 witness and we will make a decision -- I will inform Your Honours and
16 counsel as to whether we will proceed with that witness.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So for now we can adjourn to Monday on the
18 understanding that we may or may not sit depending on your decisions?
19 MR. HARMON: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I guess we've dealt with all the issues.
21 Are there any issue that the parties would like to raise.
22 Mr. Harmon?
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there is one issue that needs to be
24 addressed at some point. There are a number of MFI exhibits that are
25 still in the record. Obviously the Prosecution's position is those MFIs
1 should be reserved. The Defence has taken a certain position in respect
2 of those. That's a matter that still needs to be resolved.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. And I guess that's a matter that
4 you would like to resolve before you rest.
5 MR. HARMON: Yes, in the technical sense absolutely, Your Honour.
6 And we have been having -- we have been engaged in some discussions in
7 terms of those MFIs, we continue to and will continue to be engaged in
8 those discussions and we want to resolve this. I think there will be a
9 certain number of those exhibits for which there's no agreement and we
10 then will have to make submissions to the Trial Chamber.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now let me -- I've been putting pressure on
12 Mr. Lukic. Let me see if I can put some pressure on you. Do you think
13 you can come up with a suggested resolution of those MFIs by Monday so
14 that whether or not we have a witness on Monday, we can resolve that on
15 Monday, sit and resolve those things?
16 MR. HARMON: I think we can resolve some others, assuming there's
17 time to sit down and discuss with the Defence what is outstanding. I
18 think we will identify a certain number of those documents for which
19 there will be no agreement whatsoever, and I think we will get probably
20 the 85 per cent solution by Monday.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, the Chamber is not sitting tomorrow and
22 Friday. Can you use that time to do that?
23 MR. HARMON: Of course, Your Honour. Our view is we've asked
24 that those -- all of those documents be admitted.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you have.
1 MR. HARMON: Obviously, the Defence has certain objections as to
2 them to formulate those. Our submission was, at the time, that they be
3 admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't argue the admission now.
5 MR. HARMON: No, I'm not.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Try to resolve that and let's see if we can
7 talk about it on Monday.
8 Any issues on your side, Mr. Lukic? Nothing. Thank you very
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just say that we are indeed
11 having talks about these MFIs. I believe we'll resolve some of them this
12 week. And let me also say that there are some other MFIs that cover
13 groups of documents to which the Defence has a general objection. We'll
14 probably have to have arguments in the courtroom. Part of these
15 documents were dealt with by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, part of them I did
16 myself, but perhaps at the end of next week we can find one day to solve
17 it in the courtroom.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You probably could find a
19 day even earlier than the end of next week if we are having only one
20 witness who is likely not to testify, we don't know. And you have two
21 days in this week.
22 Okay. Thank you for that. Then we'll stand adjourned to Monday
23 the 9th of November at 2.00 in the afternoon. Courtroom II. Court
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
2 November, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.