1 Friday, 19 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 Good morning, everybody in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Momcilo Perisic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Could we have the appearance for the day, please, starting with
15 the Prosecution.
16 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 Good morning, Mr. Jevdjevic and everybody in and around the
18 courtroom. Carmela Javier, Barney Thomas, and Salvatore Cannata for the
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning to all. Tina Drolec,
22 Gregor Guy-Smith, and Chad Mair on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Just to say, for the record, that we are sitting 15 bis this
25 morning because of an emergency that Judge David has to attend to.
1 WITNESS: MILENKO JEVDJEVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Jevdjevic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you have had a good rest last night. Just
6 to warn you that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the
7 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
8 nothing else but the truth.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 Mr. Thomas.
12 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas:
14 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, I know you've testified for the Defence in the
15 Krstic and Popovic cases. You understand the process that begins now. I
16 represent the Prosecution. I have the opportunity to ask you some
17 questions relating to the testimony that you gave yesterday. Please
18 listen carefully to my questions, answer only my questions, and if you
19 are in any doubt about what I'm asking, please -- or if you don't
20 understand what I'm asking you, please let me know and I will ask you the
21 question another way. All right, are we clear?
22 A. Yes, very well.
23 MR. THOMAS: Can we please begin with Exhibit P149. If we could
24 have that on the screen, please.
25 Q. Sir, this was a document that you were asked about yesterday.
1 MR. THOMAS: And if we could just begin with the first page,
2 Mr. Registrar.
3 Q. You will see from the first page -- you had not seen this
4 document before yesterday, but you will see from the first page that it
5 is an analysis of the combat readiness and activities of the VRS in 1992.
6 You'll see that that analysis is dated April 1993.
7 MR. THOMAS: If we could turn, please, to page 4 in the English
8 and page 5 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. You will see in the top left-hand corner that the analysis has
10 been approved by the commander of the VRS, General Mladic. Do you see
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. You spoke about several passages relating to
14 radio-relay communications yesterday, and I want to explore that a little
15 further with you, please.
16 MR. THOMAS: Could we turn to page 33 in the English and page 31
17 in the B/C/S.
18 Q. Now, sir, do you see the heading "Radio-Relay Communications"?
19 A. Yes, I do. But if possible, could I have a hard copy of this
20 document, because it's very difficult for me to read it on the screen. I
21 can't read it fast enough and efficiently enough. If possible.
22 MR. MAIR
23 witness had yesterday, so --
24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Well, no problem with the binder being
25 provided, and I'm grateful to my learned friend.
1 MR. MAIR
2 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks, Mr. Mair.
4 MR. THOMAS: And Your Honours, for your assistance, I wish to
5 discuss with the witness or at least draw his attention to the -- the
6 four paragraphs following the heading "Radio-Relay Communications."
7 Q. Have you found the -- the page, Mr. Jevdjevic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Just to yourself, please, can you read -- let's begin with the
10 first three paragraphs. Just read those quietly to yourself for a
12 A. I've read it.
13 Q. Now, I take it, sir, that you -- you do not disagree with what is
14 contained in those three paragraphs in the analysis approved by
15 General Mladic?
16 A. I assume that that should be the case, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Can you read the next paragraph, which begins "The Army of
18 Yugoslavia," to yourself, please.
19 A. I have read it.
20 Q. Okay. Again, sir, I take it you do not disagree with that
22 A. I do not disagree with this paragraph. I would like to explain
23 the gist of it, if you allow me.
24 Q. Well, let me -- I have some questions to ask about the paragraph,
25 sir, so let's deal with my questions first.
1 You will see in the paragraph that there is reference to the
2 Yugoslav Army making available a number of connecting pathways and
3 available capacities of its communication channels at FRY stationary
4 communication hubs. You see that reference?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Particularly, sir, are we talking about the Crni Vrh and
7 Strazbenica hubs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I want to deal with each of those one at a time. First, the Cer
10 communication hub -- or "Cer" I think it's properly pronounced. First of
11 all, that is located on the territory of the Republic of Serbia, isn't
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And is this communications hub a communications -- a stationary
15 communications node or a stationary communications centre?
16 A. It's a stationary communications node or hub.
17 Q. Okay. Now, the second one I mentioned is Crni Vrh. First of
18 all, Crni Vrh refers to the mountain atop which this particular
19 communications hub is positioned; is that right?
20 A. Yes. Both are on top of the mountain.
21 Q. We see reference in certain communications charts and
22 communications documentation to a place called Gucevo. Is Gucevo the
23 village or the area, rather, where Crni Vrh is positioned?
24 A. The smaller mountain is called Gucevo, and the top of that
25 mountain is called Crni Vrh.
1 Q. So where we see Crni Vrh and Gucevo referred to in a
2 communications context, they effectively mean the same thing. We're
3 talking about the same communications hub; is that right?
4 A. More or less. It's the same area as far as communications go.
5 At Gucevo there were probably other communications equipment belonging to
6 others, but yes, yes, the reference is the same.
7 Q. All right. And, again, in relation to -- in relation to
8 Crni Vrh, are we talking about a stationary communications node or a
10 A. The stationary communications node.
11 Q. All right. The third hub that I mentioned was Strazbenica, and
12 can you confirm for us that that is positioned on the territory of
14 A. As far as I have been able to follow, we are speaking of two, not
15 three. One is Crni Vrh which is the top of mount Gucevo. That's one and
16 the same thing. And the second is Strazbenica. I don't know what the
17 third one would be.
18 Q. Okay. I'm moving on now from Cer and Crni Vrh. I want to talk
19 now about the communications hub at Strazbenica. And you will be aware
20 of communications hub at Strazbenica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it is hub positioned on the territory of Montenegro?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Again, is this a stationary communications hub or a stationary
25 communications centre?
1 A. It's a stationary communications hub.
2 Q. Okay. I want you, please, to look at the next paragraph, please.
3 MR. THOMAS: And in the English, Your Honours, we will need to go
4 to the next page.
5 MR. MAIR
6 comment on the paragraph. Mr. Thomas, you said that you would like to
7 ask your questions first, which implied that he might still be allowed to
8 comment. I'm not sure if the witness has done so. I understand I could
9 do it on redirect, but it might be more appropriate to just deal with it
10 while we're on that paragraph.
11 MR. THOMAS:
12 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, yes, before we leave the paragraph beginning "The
13 Army of Yugoslavia," and in relation to the questions I asked you about
14 that paragraph, is there anything you want to add?
15 A. While you were putting your questions to me, we were talking
16 about the stationary hubs of Crni Vrh and Strazbenica. Later on, you
17 mentioned Cer, which you had not mentioned before. There were three
18 stationary communications hubs on the territory of Serbia by means of
19 which there were transit communication channels that were used,
20 radio-relay communications. The stationary hubs were used for the
21 transit of certain communication channels. They were used when no other
22 connecting pathway was possible in view of optical visibility. That was
23 one of the properties of radio-relay communications I spoke about
24 yesterday. That's why the VRS used this; just as, for example, if you
25 have a plot of land, other users may be allowed passage. So the VRS used
1 the extra capacities or free capacities of the JNA communications so that
2 some of the channels or connecting pathways could pass through those
3 nodes and be reflected as in a mirror back onto the territory of
4 Republika Srpska. That's the way in which these hubs were used.
5 So these were unused capacities that we were able to use. It's
6 like -- it's like having a right-of-way over somebody else's meadow, for
7 example. We didn't have any other way to do this because we needed
8 optical visibility. So those communications would be reflected back onto
9 our side.
10 Q. All right. Let me -- let me just discuss that with you for a
11 moment so that I understand what you've said.
12 Depending on the terrain, for example, there might be situations
13 where VRS units could not communicate with each other because there would
14 not be direct optical or uninterrupted optical visibility between two VRS
15 nodes; is that right?
16 A. That's right, yes.
17 Q. And on those occasions, for the VRS units' concern to be able to
18 communicate with each other, are you saying that radio-relay messages
19 would have to be transmitted using the towers also on the territory of
20 the Republic of Serbia and they would ultimately make their way back into
21 the territory of the RS and picked up by the VRS units wanting to
22 retrieve or receive that communication; is that right?
23 A. That's right, yes.
24 Q. And I take it that encryption was used on these -- on the
25 radio-relay routes that passed through the FRY?
1 A. No. Those communications were only transiting, only passing
2 through like a car passing along somebody else's approach road. So it's
3 just transit.
4 Q. I -- I understand that, but at the time the message is
5 transmitted by the first VRS unit, it is encrypted; is that right? Or
6 there was that capacity?
7 A. The message was encrypted, and it could only be decrypted at its
8 ultimate destination, not while in transit.
9 Q. I understand. Within the Drina Corps, there were units who did
10 not have optical line of sight with each other, wasn't there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So within the Drina Corps, if a certain unit, for example the
13 Zvornik Brigade, wished to communicate with the Drina Corps command,
14 those radio-relay communications would have to pass through the route
15 that you have described, through Crni Vrh, Cer, and back into the RS,
16 wouldn't it?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Okay. Specifically the Zvornik Brigade -- before we go -- I'm
19 sorry. I'll start again.
20 The main hub in the VRS was Veliki Zep; is that right?
21 A. Zep, yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And this was a large communications centre on the territory of
23 the Republika Srpska; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The Drina Corps had a direct -- sorry, the Drina Corps command
1 had a direct link with that communications centre?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The VRS main -- and before we move from there, the Drina Corps
4 was garrisoned at Vlasenica? The corps command was at Vlasenica?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We have the VRS Main Staff at Crna Rijeka?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the VRS Main Staff also had it's own direct link with the
9 communications hub at Zep; is that right? At Zep.
10 A. Yes. That link was actually by means of an underground table.
11 Q. Okay. So, for example, for the Drina Corps command to
12 communicate with the Zvornik Brigade, the radio-relay communication would
13 have to go from the Drina Corps command at Vlasenica to Zep, first of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then to the Cer station in Serbia?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then to the Crni Vrh station in Serbia?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then back across the border to Zvornik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. In respect of other brigades, we had a similar situation
23 where the Strazbenica radio-relay communications centre was used, don't
25 A. Yes. It was used for only one brigade.
1 Q. And which brigade was that?
2 A. The Rogatica Brigade.
3 Q. So in that case, communications between the Drina Corps command
4 or the Main Staff of the VRS would be from each of those units, firstly
5 to Zep?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then through the Strazbenica centre in Montenegro?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then back across the border to Rogatica?
10 A. Yes. It's very important to point out that the communications
11 were encrypted in Vlasenica, and no one was able to decrypt it in all
12 these hubs until it arrived at its ultimate destination in the Rogatica
13 Brigade of the VRS. It was only they who could decrypt the telegram,
14 because it only transited through all of these hubs.
15 Q. I understand.
16 MR. THOMAS: If you turn over the next page, please,
17 Mr. Registrar, in the English.
18 Q. And, Mr. Jevdjevic, if you could go to the next paragraph in the
19 version you have in front of you, you will see a paragraph regarding --
20 well, you'll see the paragraph. Read it to yourself.
21 "These simultaneous transmission radio-relay communications
22 links ..."
23 A. I've read it.
24 Q. I take it you also agree with this paragraph?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Was it -- excuse me. You've described the encryption
2 of communications travelling across the radio-relay routes that we've
3 described. Was it both oral communication and written communications
4 that was encrypted?
5 A. It was only written communications that were encrypted, and in
6 part oral communications were also encrypted.
7 Q. And what would -- okay. All right. Now, we've spoken about this
8 just a little bit, but if we go to the last paragraph before the heading
9 "Radio Communication," which reads "Other units and commands." Do you
10 see that? I think it might be the bottom of your page.
11 Do you see the heading "Radio Communication," sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Have you read the paragraph immediately before that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, again, do you agree with the comments contained in that
18 A. As the main communications man in the Drina Corps, on the entire
19 territory of the Drina Corps there were no JNA units before the war, no
20 JNA garrisons, that is, so there was no need to establish stationary
21 communications centres. In my experience, the Drina Corps did not have
22 the possibility of relying on stationary communications centres. In some
23 other corps, and I'm primarily referring to the Banja Luka Corps or the
24 1st Krajina Corps where there had been many units of the JNA, there were
25 also many stationary communications centres, and probably the chief of
1 the communications who compiled this analysis was referring to those.
2 My experience from the Drina Corps does not correspond to what is
3 stated in this paragraph, but I only knew about one part of all this in
4 relation to the entire VRS.
5 Q. All right. Let -- let me deal for a moment with the Drina Corps
6 and your -- your knowledge of operations in the Drina Corps.
7 For combat operations, for example, a forward command post would
8 need to be established; is that right?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And was it part of your job to ensure that wherever the forward
11 command post was established that the necessary communications means were
12 also established at that forward command post to enable, firstly,
13 communication back to corps command; and secondly, communication with
14 subordinate units?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And obviously for combat operations as with any military
17 operations, that would include the ability to encrypt information if that
18 was possible?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Before I talk about the establishment of forward command
21 posts, if the Main Staff of the VRS wished to communicate, say, with
22 Belgrade, so with the General Staff of the VJ, that communication would
23 go through Zep along the same route, through Cer, through Crni Vrh, and
24 on to Belgrade; is that right?
25 MR. MAIR
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mair.
2 MR. MAIR
3 wondering if we could have some foundation for the witness's competence
4 to answer that question regarding the VRS Main Staff and Belgrade. I'm
5 not sure if that has been sufficiently established.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
7 MR. THOMAS:
8 Q. Are you aware, sir, of the radio-relay route from the VRS -- from
9 the RS through to Belgrade?
10 A. No. I just knew about radio-relay communications that were
11 within the domain of the Drina Corps.
12 Q. Was there any other radio-relay route from the VRS Main Staff
13 across the border to Serbia other than through Cer and Crni Vrh?
14 A. Crni Vrh was only used for the needs of the Drina Corps. I am
15 aware of that and Cer and Strazbenica. I'm not sure about anything else.
16 Q. I understand. Let -- just listen to my question for the moment.
17 For the VRS Main Staff to communicate with Belgrade, I mean, I appreciate
18 you can't tell me the entire route because you don't know this, but for
19 the Main Staff in the VRS to communicate with Belgrade, you can at least
20 confirm, can't you, that the communication would have gone from the
21 Main Staff in Crna Rijeka to Zep and then across to Cer?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --
23 MR. MAIR
24 asking the witness to speculate, so I will object on those grounds.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: I disagree, Your Honour. The witness has described
2 all the hubs that were applicable from the use of the Drina Corps and the
3 access of the VRS Main Staff to the main RS hub. He's described the
4 radio-relay route across the border into Serbia. All I'm asking him now
5 is that if that would have been the same route that would have been used
6 had communications travelled on from Cer within Serbia. He's someone in
7 a position to answer that question.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Notwithstanding his statement that he's not
9 able -- all he knows is communications within the Drina Corps?
10 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir, because all I'm asking him is to confirm
11 that they would have gone to Cer. He says he doesn't know what happened
12 after -- after that, and that's -- that's a matter for him. But I'm only
13 asking him if communications would have gone the same way to Cer and from
14 then on within the FRY by some other means.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you here what I'm saying? The witness has
16 indicated that all he knows is the communication within the Drina Corps.
17 He doesn't know any communications outside the Drina Corps. So I don't
18 know whether -- of course, on the other hand, he can say he doesn't know
19 if he doesn't know. If he knows, he knows. I don't know whether you
20 expect him to speculate about what happens outside the Drina Corps.
21 MR. THOMAS: Well, what he has said, sir, is that the Drina Corps
22 used those Serb facilities. Those Serb facilities were not exclusively
23 for the Drina Corps. He's likened it to somebody driving a vehicle
24 across somebody's property. So what I'm asking him is that if someone
25 wanted to keep driving their vehicle all the way to Belgrade, is that at
1 least the first part of the route that they would have travelled.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection will be overruled then.
3 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. So, sir, do you understand my question? You've spoken about
5 multiple users having access to Cer. My question is for a communication
6 from the VRS Main Staff to anywhere in Serbia beyond Cer, would the
7 communication at least have travelled between Zep and Cer?
8 A. First of all, we never talked about several users that went to
9 Cer. Whatever I know and whatever is contained in the schematics that I
10 received, it only had to do with the hubs in those of the Drina Corps for
11 the realisation of their own communications. As for the realisation of
12 other communications, I never got any schematics, and I cannot say
13 anything that would be reliable.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you please listen to the question very
15 carefully and try to answer the question. You're not being asked what
16 you were doing within the Drina Corps. You know -- you've been just
17 asked whether any communication from the VRS Main Staff to anywhere in
18 Serbia beyond Cer would have to go at least through Zep and Cer. The
19 answer to that question is either a Yes, a No, or I don't know; not that
20 long explanation.
21 Thank you, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
23 MR. THOMAS:
24 Q. All right. Can we maybe give you some help.
25 MR. THOMAS: Can we have P1558 on the screen, please. Now, just
1 before -- just before we blow-up -- excuse me. Just before we blow-up
2 this document, can we see the heading, please, at the top, Mr. Registrar.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mair.
4 MR. MAIR
5 might be a little bit easier to see the entire diagram. It should be tab
6 12, if that's okay with Mr. Thomas.
7 MR. THOMAS: That's fine, sir.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mair.
9 MR. THOMAS:
10 Q. Now, you see that this is a chart of communications. Do you see
11 the stamp in the middle of that page?
12 A. I see it, but I cannot read it exactly. I cannot see what is
13 exactly written on this stamp. Maybe -- maybe it says "Main Staff."
14 Now, is it the Army of Republika Srpska or something else? I mean, I
15 have no reason not to trust you. Can you help me out with this?
16 Q. Well, have you seen this schematic before or anything --
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you seen a --
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Have you seen a schematic like this before?
21 A. No.
22 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Can we move over to the right-hand side of
23 both versions, please. And in the B/C/S as well, please.
24 Q. Now, you'll see the Cer site on that schematic?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Okay. In fact, that's not very clear and it doesn't assist, so
2 we can take that off the screen. My apologies.
3 All right. I want to move now to the establishment of forward
4 command posts, and I want to talk -- so that we have examples that you
5 are familiar with, I want to talk about Srebrenica and Zepa.
6 First of all, you were the -- effectively chief of communications
7 for General Krstic during the Srebrenica and Zepa operations?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Can you explain what role you had during the Srebrenica and
10 Zepa operations?
11 A. I was an officer from the communications battalion in charge of
12 carrying out the realisation of communications that were planned by
13 Lieutenant-Colonel Nedo Blagojevic who, indeed, was General Krstic's
14 chief of communications.
15 Q. All right. And part of your tasks was to ensure the existence of
16 effective and safe communications from the forward command posts; is that
18 A. Yes. To carry out the realisation of communications from the
19 forward command post.
20 Q. And as you've said before, that would involve ensuring lines of
21 communication from the forward command post back to corps command and
22 also ensuring lines of communication from the forward command post down
23 to subordinate units; is that right?
24 A. Yes. To realise these communications that you just mentioned.
25 Q. And to ensure, wherever possible, that means existed to encrypt
1 or protect those communications.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Let's deal with Srebrenica first of all. Where was
4 the forward command post located for the Srebrenica operation?
5 A. It was in the village of Pribicevac, and that operation was
6 called Krivaja 95. It was not called the Srebrenica operation.
7 Q. Okay. In what sort of building was the -- was the forward
8 command post?
9 A. Literally in a meadow.
10 Q. Was there any existing communications capability there before it
11 became the forward command post for the operation?
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Thomas, to interrupt.
14 Sir, when you say literally in a meadow, you mean it was not in a
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. ...
18 MR. THOMAS:
19 Q. And in terms of -- first of all, in terms of physically
20 establishing the command post itself, what was involved in that process?
21 I'm not talking about coms for the moment, just the command post itself.
22 A. The forward command post in such situations means that there
23 should be a certain area on the ground where elements of the forward
24 command post are deployed. One of these elements of a forward command
25 post is the communications centre, and I was given the task of setting it
2 Q. I understand, sir. I'm not talking about the communications
3 centre for the moment -- I'm sorry, my friend is on his feet.
4 MR. MAIR
5 not familiar with that term.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
7 MR. THOMAS: I used the English term "coms," and I apologise. I
8 shouldn't have.
9 Q. Do you understand that to be a short abbreviation for
11 A. Now you've confused me. Can you repeat the question?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is very difficult to
13 make the distinction in B/C/S.
14 MR. THOMAS: I understand.
15 Q. I'll rephrase my question. I'm not talking about communications
16 for the moment. I'm just -- I'm just interested in what physically
17 occurs to establish a command post for all the other elements required to
18 be present at a forward command post. Can you just assist us with
19 describing what is involved in that process?
20 A. According to regulations, a forward command post would have to
21 imply that there are certain facilities where organs are deployed, organs
22 that are going to command from that forward command post. Security
23 should be deployed there, then the headquarters staff and everyone else
24 that needs to work there for the purposes of that forward command post.
25 That would be it in the briefest possible terms.
1 Q. Okay. All right. Moving now to communications. And for the
2 Srebrenica forward command post, what were you required to do to
3 establish the necessary communications system?
4 A. I was supposed to establish communications vis-a-vis the superior
5 command, that is to say, the command of the Drina Corps. I also needed
6 to establish communications with subordinate units that took part in the
7 Krivaja 95 operation.
8 Q. So how did you do that?
9 A. I did that by using certain technical communications.
10 Q. Without going into too much technical detail, can you describe
11 for us the kind of equipment that you had to establish and how it
13 A. On a motor vehicle, I had integrated equipment that made it
14 possible to communicate with the command of the Drina Corps as well as
15 the encryption of these written communications. As for this other type
16 of equipment that had a protection of speech, encryption, rather, I had
17 that kind of equipment for communicating with the subordinate units that
18 took part in the Krivaja 95 operation.
19 Q. And did you have encryption capability for the oral
20 communications between corps command and the forward command post?
21 A. Oral communications between the forward command post of
22 Krivaja 95 and the corps command we could not encrypt. There was only
23 this one device at the Main Staff where from time to time there could be
24 encryption carried out for these oral communications.
25 Q. I understand. So that deals with oral communication between the
1 forward command post and the Drina Corps command. What about oral
2 communication between the forward command post and the Main Staff? Was
3 there a direct line of communication between the two?
4 A. There was not a direct line, but we could get in touch with the
5 Main Staff from that forward command post. However, as far as I can
6 remember, this was used very rarely, because that operation was commanded
7 by the Drina Corps.
8 Q. All right. Now, besides encryption, the -- the protection of
9 information also meant that radio call-signs, radio call names, were
10 assigned to certain individuals and to certain posts; is that right?
11 A. Do you mean encrypting written communications or oral
13 Q. My fault, sir. I asked you a very long question.
14 For -- for example, for oral communications between the
15 brigade -- or a brigade and corps command or the forward command post,
16 the locations from which people were calling would be identified by
17 call-signs rather than by saying, "I'm calling from corps command,"
18 wouldn't they?
19 A. No. We had equipment for the protection of speech, and thereby
20 we could speak openly. There was no need to hide anything orally, no
21 need to code anything when speaking. That is to say, we had reliable
22 radio equipment at short ranges. So from the forward command post
23 through this equipment, one could command the units that took part in the
24 operation by speaking freely, without using any kind of codes.
25 Q. Okay. Nevertheless, there were code-names, weren't there?
1 A. In the documentation we did have a list of secret names,
2 code-names, for various units, and that is contained in the
3 communications plan. However, all the content of information was
4 enunciated freely, without using any kind of code tables, et cetera.
5 There was no need for that, because our protection equipment was very
7 Q. Okay. Before I move on to just a couple of communications I want
8 to talk to you about, can you confirm for me that the code-name for the
9 Drina Corps command during the operation was Zlatar?
10 A. Yes, Zlatar was the corps command.
11 Q. The 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade was Palma?
12 A. It was Palma, but I with like to explain something to you if you
13 allow me to do so. These are secret or code-names of units in Zvornik,
14 Vlasenica, Bratunac, et cetera. All these units gave one company or
15 Tactical Group respectively that was singled out from these brigades and
16 went out to carry out the Krivaja 95 operation. These smaller units that
17 left, Palma, Zlatar, and so on, in the execution of Krivaja 95, they were
18 assigned completely different code-names.
19 Q. All right. And before we leave this topic, you confirmed that
20 ordinarily Palma meant the Zvornik Brigade and Badem meant the
21 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.
22 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
23 Q. All right. I want to just look at a couple of intercepts where
24 these are used so that you can help us with those, please. The first is
1 MR. THOMAS: If we could have that on the screen.
2 Q. I'll ask you a couple of questions about it, sir, but it might
3 assist you, perhaps, to read the entire transcript in the B/C/S. I'm
4 looking at the one that begins halfway down the page at 2102. Yes. So
5 just take a moment, sir. Read the entire transcript. It's not very
6 long. And we will do the same.
7 And when you need to go on to the -- sorry. When you need to go
8 on to the next page, sir, just say so.
9 A. I've read it. However, it would be good if I could see a hard
10 copy, because it's hard for me to read it on the screen. However, I have
11 read what is on the screen now.
12 Q. Take a look at the next page.
13 MR. THOMAS: I think, Mr. Registrar, we do need to scroll down in
14 the English. And perhaps once everyone's had an opportunity to read the
15 last part of the English, we can enlarge the B/C/S version.
16 Q. And when you're ready, sir, we can go back to the beginning of
17 the intercept.
18 A. Can it be lowered so that I can see the end? I have read as much
19 as it was possible to read.
20 Q. All right. If we could go to the beginning of the document,
21 please, or the beginning of the conversation.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mair.
23 MR. MAIR
24 could provide the date for this conversation.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: It's the 14th of July, sir, and I was just about to
2 get to that.
3 Q. All right. Mr. Jevdjevic, this is a conversation that occurred
4 on the 14th of July, 1995, and you understand from the date and the
5 contents of this intercept the context.
6 You will see at the reference at the beginning of the
7 conversation we have somebody calling Badem saying that the Palma duty
8 officer wants to talk to Beara. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, that is what is written here.
10 Q. So in the context that we -- that we have been discussing,
11 Palma was the Drina Corps command and Badem refers to the
12 Bratunac Brigade, doesn't it?
13 A. No. Palma, as we said a moment ago, is the command of the
14 Zvornik Brigade in Zvornik, not the command of the Drina Corps.
15 Q. Sorry, my apologies. The Zvornik Brigade in Zvornik and Badem
16 being the Bratunac Brigade.
17 A. Yes. Those are the names of those brigades, the commands of
18 those brigades. However, where their seats are.
19 Q. All right. For a communication to be sent from the seat of the
20 Zvornik Brigade to the seat of the Bratunac Brigade, it would have to
21 travel through Crni Vrh, Cer, Zep, and then out to the Bratunac Brigade
22 seat, would it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. THOMAS: Can we look, please, at P240. And the conversation
25 beginning at 13.58 hours. That's a little further down the page in the
1 B/C/S. Thank you.
2 Q. And, Mr. Jevdjevic, I can tell you that this is a conversation
3 from the 16th of July. Again, please just familiarise yourself with the
4 context by reading the intercept or the conversation quietly to yourself.
5 A. I do apologise, but if we could scroll down so that I can see the
6 beginning and also the right-hand side is cut off, if you want me to look
7 at the content.
8 Q. We can do that, sir, and we can go over to the next page for you
9 as well.
10 A. I've read it, and I assume the content is not that relevant to
11 your question.
12 Q. All right. Well, you haven't heard my question yet. Let's go
13 back to the top of the conversation.
14 You've read the intercept. We know that it's dated the
15 16th of July, 1995, and you will see that this is a conversation between
16 the Palma duty officer, which we know to be the seat of the
17 Zvornik Brigade, and Zlatar. And Zlatar you described as being the
18 Drina Corps command in Vlasenica. Is that right?
19 A. Yes, but I don't see the frequency here, on which frequency this
20 conversation was intercepted, and that is why I cannot tell you what sort
21 of equipment was used, nor can I be sure on which sections this equipment
22 operated. On the previous intercept, I could see the frequency. And
23 that told me something about the type of equipment that was used.
24 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you a more -- a general question
25 then. For a radio-relay communication to travel between Zlatar and
1 Palma, it would need to go to, firstly, Zep, then Cer, then Crni Vrh, and
2 then Zvornik?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And --
5 A. Although -- I do apologise. I wish to add the following: That
6 was the radio-relay communication used through military equipment
7 exclusively. In the course of the war, we were also able to use civilian
8 telephone lines run by the post office. So every military post had
9 civilian telephone numbers through the post office. So some
10 communications did take place that way. This was the regular military
11 communication line, but we also used civilian ones. Where I can see the
12 frequency of the military equipment, I can say that most likely it went
13 through the route you described. But where I cannot see the frequency, I
14 cannot be certain that this is the case.
15 Q. I understand. I want to move from -- now on to Zepa. I don't
16 have many conversations left to deal with, sir, but I want to move to
17 Zepa, July 1995. Once again, your job was to ensure that there was safe
18 and effective communications capability installed at the various forward
19 command posts; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us, first of all, how many forward command posts
22 there were for the Zepa operation?
23 A. We moved twice, so we had the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd forward command
25 Q. Okay. I'll just take it slowly so that we have it, sir. Can you
1 tell me, please, where the 1st command post was?
2 A. In the village of Krivace.
3 Q. Is -- Krivace is the name of the village?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in what sort of facility, building, was the forward command
6 post established?
7 A. Krivace is a village that was at least 3 or 4 kilometres away
8 from where we were, and the forward command post was underneath a pine
10 Q. And what communications means were established at that command
12 A. The same as the one we had for the Krivaja 95 operation.
13 Q. So the same process you described and the same material you
14 described for that operation equally applied to the establishment of this
15 forward command post at Krivace; is that right?
16 A. Yes, but one or two units switched places. Otherwise, everything
17 remained the same.
18 Q. In terms of your communications, the set-up was the same as it
19 was at the Srebrenica forward command post?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Where was the next forward command post for the Zepa
23 A. It was called Godjenje.
24 Q. Prior to the move to Godjenje, what other forward command posts
25 were established for the Zepa operation?
1 A. Before Godjenje, we had Krivace. After Krivace, we had Godjenje.
2 Maybe I misunderstood your question or it was misinterpreted.
3 Q. Was there -- all right. Let me be -- let me be a little more
4 specific, sir. Was there a forward command post at Podzeplje?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Or Podplane?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What was the code-name for the forward command post at Krivace?
9 Was it Uran?
10 A. It was Uran.
11 Q. Okay. Within the -- yet you've described that forward command
12 post being under a pine tree. Can you be a little bit more specific? Is
13 there -- for example, does the name Salila mean anything to you?
14 A. Mesalila means nothing me. I have never heard the word before,
15 or maybe it was misinterpreted. In operations of this kind, our
16 commanders insisted that their forward command posts be at the front line
17 in a place from which one could have an overview over the whole
18 battle-field so that they could see what was going on and thus command
19 the units more effectively. That was why we were on an elevation
20 underneath a pine tree.
21 Q. All right. Was there a command post at the post of the
22 65th Protection Regiment?
23 A. That unit was located near Crna Rijeka, but it was not in my line
24 of command, so I do not know where it had its forward command post.
25 Q. You weren't aware of that post being at Podplane?
1 A. I have already told you that this unit was not in the chain of
2 command of the Drina Corps, and I do not know where its forward command
3 post was.
4 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: At Uran, you would have encountered
5 General Tolimir during the course of the Zepa operation; correct?
6 A. I've already heard a confusing interpretation again.
7 At Uran I met General Tolimir. Uran was the code-name of the
8 forward command post of the Drina Corps. Can you be more specific?
9 Q. Well, was General Tolimir at that command post throughout the
10 Zepa operation?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was he -- where else was he operating from?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mair.
14 MR. MAIR
15 speculation. I don't know if we have any basis at all for Mr. Jevdjevic
16 to answer that question.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How is that speculation, Mr. Mair?
18 MR. MAIR
19 would know where Mr. Tolimir was during the Zepa operation. We have no
20 idea where -- where Mr. Tolimir -- we have no idea how Mr. Jevdjevic
21 would have any information at all about that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
23 MR. THOMAS: Sir, Mr. Jevdjevic is there. He's in charge of
24 communications. General Tolimir is at the forward command post. He said
25 he's not there all the time. I'm asking him if he knows where else he
1 was operating from.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
3 MR. THOMAS:
4 Q. So, sir, can you -- can you tell us where else General Tolimir
5 was operating from during the Zepa operation?
6 A. First, I was never the chief of communications. I was an officer
7 tasked with implementing the communications planned by the chief of
9 General Tolimir was never at the forward command post when
10 Stupcanica 95 was being carried out. But on several occasions I heard
11 General Tolimir's voice on the radio communications, but he never came to
12 the forward command post of the Drina Corps.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Jevdjevic, I want to believe that you do want
14 to go home as soon as possible. Now, that will happen if you can listen
15 to the questions and answer them as succinctly as possible.
16 The question simply is can you tell us where else General Tolimir
17 was operating from during the Zepa operations. You either can tell, or
18 you can't tell.
19 We're not wanting --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you that.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You see, it's a very short answer.
22 Yours was a long answer which will keep you here for the rest of the
24 Would that be an appropriate, convenient time? We'll take a
25 break and come back at quarter to 11.00.
1 Court adjourned.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
6 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, there are two documents that I'd like
7 to use with Mr. Jevdjevic for the purposes of impeachment relating to
8 this topic of the existence of other forward command posts at Zepa. The
9 first is an intercept. This is XN222. It is an intercept of a
10 conversation between General Miletic and General Tolimir where
11 General Tolimir has said to Miletic that he has forwarded communication
12 to the Uran command post for the purposes of sending it securely to
13 General Miletic.
14 So the suggestion here that is being made is that Mr. Jevdjevic,
15 at Uran, responsible for communications, would have been aware that
16 General Tolimir was sending him information which was not secure from
17 another location during the operation for the purposes of him -- of him
18 then being able to on-send it securely to General Miletic, suggesting
19 that General Miletic -- sorry, General Tolimir is operating at a location
20 separate from Uran but within the knowledge of Mr. Jevdjevic because he
21 is communicating with Uran, and for the purpose of using the encryption
22 facilities available at Uran for the on-transmission of information.
23 The second document, Your Honours, is used for the same purpose.
24 It's XN220. It is the Drina Corps battle order for the Zepa operation,
25 and it refers to another forward command post. It names it, and I wish
1 to use that document to put to him to establish whether there was another
2 forward command post other than that that he has described.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks, Mr. Thomas. Are you done? It's
4 unfortunate that you gave the whole detail of the contents of these
5 documents before you have a ruling on whether you may or may not use
6 them, but let me just find out one thing from the parties.
7 Was Mr. Jevdjevic an operator of the communications systems, or
8 did he just establish them?
9 MR. THOMAS: I think the best answer, sir, is that his evidence
10 was that he was responsible for implementing the communications plan at
11 the forward command posts --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what does that mean, "implementing the
13 communications plan"?
14 MR. THOMAS: Which was to ensure that they were operating, secure
15 and effective communications among all the units.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But he's not an operator. He's not the one
17 who answers when people phone.
18 MR. THOMAS: He's not been directly asked that question, but
19 there is other evidence that -- that suggests that.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
21 Mr. Mair.
22 MR. MAIR
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 222.
24 MR. MAIR
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies.
2 MR. MAIR
3 For 220, if it's only for the purposes of impeachment, we have no
4 problem with that as long as the threshold is met on the subsequent
5 submissions which I assume will be -- will be made.
6 As regards the first, XN222, I don't believe that the submission
7 made thus far by Mr. Thomas actually answers the purpose for which he
8 said he's impeaching the witness. As regards the existence additional
9 communications centres, I don't think there's anything in this intercept
10 that actually establishes additional forward command posts. So I don't
11 think the document itself is actually relevant for the purpose that which
12 Mr. Thomas proposes to use it.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm just not finding ...
14 MR. MAIR
15 Mr. Thomas starting at page 31, lines 10 through 12:
16 "For the purpose of impeachment relating to this topic of the
17 existence of other forward command posts at Zepa."
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Thomas, threshold.
19 MR. THOMAS: Sir, he's denied that there are other forward
20 command posts at Zepa. I'm just wanting to demonstrate that he's not
21 honest about that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or that he doesn't know. He may not know.
23 MR. THOMAS: He might not know, but he's claimed to say -- that
24 might be his answer, but that wasn't his answer in his testimony.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Threshold, Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS: Certainly, sir. The document was disclosed --
2 sorry, XN220, if I can find my notes -- one moment, Your Honour.
3 XN220 was disclosed on the first occasion on the
4 13th of October, 2006, and XN222 was disclosed on the 18th of March, this
5 week, sir.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: This week.
7 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. As soon as we received the proofing note
8 effectively from this witness the night before his testimony, we were
9 able to make the necessary inquiries.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: By what means were these documents disclosed?
11 MR. THOMAS: The first via CD, sir, and the second via e-court
12 with a -- with a contemporaneous message saying that it was available in
13 e-court, e-mail message.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that all?
15 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mair raises the point that the one document is
17 not relevant for purposes of impeachment. Do you have any response to
19 MR. THOMAS: I do, sir. The -- the witness has said that there
20 was -- he has no idea where General Tolimir was and what he was doing.
21 It's relevant for the purposes of impeachment in that respect, because it
22 demonstrates that there is a direct communication between
23 General Tolimir, on the 16th of July, and Uran being the forward command
24 post, and I appreciate I need to put him at Uran at the necessary time,
25 but assuming that I do that, he's at Uran, and the communication is for
1 the purpose of transmitting securely information back to General Miletic.
2 So in my submission, it impeaches him on the basis that it challenges his
3 assertion that he didn't know where General Tolimir was or what he was
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And does that not come back to the question I
6 asked: Was he operating the system or did he just establish the system.
7 MR. THOMAS: I can -- understand.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Obviously if he has -- if he has established the
9 system and he pulls out -- whether he's there or not on the 16th, he's
10 not on the line to hear, but --
11 MR. THOMAS: You're -- no. The -- you're quite right,
12 Your Honour. There are two ways around that. The first is that as a
13 precondition I can ask him some questions as to whether or not he was
14 there on the 16th, but the follow-up conversation in XN222, the
15 Prosecution alleges, is made to him at Uran.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: To him?
17 MR. THOMAS: Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mair, do you have any comments to make on the
19 document that was first disclosed to you on the 18th of March this year?
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. MAIR
22 think Mr. Thomas has changed the purpose for which he said he would like
23 to impeach Mr. Jevdjevic. He started off by referring to the existence
24 of multiple command posts. We're now dealing with a direct link between
25 Tolimir and Miletic, which is a wholly different topic than with the --
1 where this conversation started.
2 As regards the submission on the -- the disclosure and the
3 threshold, the Prosecution has tendered hundreds of intercepts in this
4 case, many, many intercepts, and I don't see any reason why this
5 intercept, if it was relevant to this case, why it would not have been
6 tendered at a previous -- previous time or why it was not even disclosed
7 at a previous time sooner than three days ago.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but what -- or is that your objection to the
9 short notice?
10 MR. MAIR
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether you want to answer that,
12 Mr. Thomas, or if you don't, then the Chamber will have to rule.
13 MR. THOMAS: Only to say, sir, that it matters little for our
14 case whether General Tolimir spoke to Mr. Jevdjevic or anyone else on a
15 particular day. It assumes importance now because of the need to impeach
16 Mr. Jevdjevic on his comments regarding where Mr. Tolimir was operating.
17 It's only that the relevance of the document has only now crystallised
18 with this.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then there's a submission by the Defence that
20 you're shifting the goal posts, that you were going to use these
21 documents to impeach him on the number of forward posts, forward command
22 posts. Now you're saying you want to use it to establish the whereabouts
23 of Mr. Tolimir, which is a completely --
24 MR. THOMAS: No -- oh, sorry. The purpose is to impeach his
25 testimony on the whereabouts of General Tolimir. Now, I'm doing that by
1 demonstrating that General Tolimir is there and that he's communicating
2 with others and through him and wanting secure communications and so on,
3 but the purpose has been and always remains to impeach him when he says
4 he doesn't know where General Tolimir was and where he was operating
6 Now, if he ends up talking about command posts or about something
7 else, that's by the by. The key thing, sir, is that he has said that he
8 doesn't know where General Tolimir was. General Tolimir would not have
9 been just walking around in fields, sir. He would have been at a command
10 post of some description, but that's not what I'm attempting to
11 establish. The reason why I'm using the document is to impeach his
12 testimony when he says he doesn't know where General Tolimir was during
13 this period.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But let me read you, Mr. Thomas, what you said
15 when you introduced this topic as soon as we came back from the break.
16 And this is at page 31, starting at line 10:
17 "Your Honours, there are two documents that I would like to use
18 with Mr. Jevdjevic for the purposes of impeachment relating to this topic
19 of the existence of other forward command posts at Zepa."
20 That's the point that you want to -- now, when you start talking
21 about the whereabouts of Tolimir, you're shifting from this first
22 purpose, from this first point that you want to impeach him on as to the
23 existence of other forward command posts at Zepa.
24 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir, but what I said at line 22 is more
1 "This relates to General Tolimir operating at a location
2 separate from Uran but within the knowledge of Mr. Jevdjevic."
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that's why the Defence is objecting on the
4 basis that that document then is not relevant to the existence of a
5 forward command post at Zepa. It's relevant to the whereabouts of
7 MR. THOMAS: Yes, but that's what I've said, sir, at line 22,
8 that General Tolimir is operating at a location separate from Uran but
9 within the knowledge of Mr. Jevdjevic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And -- and that separate location, is it a forward
11 command post other than the command posts that he has already mentioned?
12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. It could be, but it's something
13 within his knowledge.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a fishing expedition, Mr. Thomas.
15 MR. THOMAS: Sir, he denies knowing where General Tolimir was.
16 He's receiving communications from General Tolimir. He's receiving
17 instructions to encrypt these because he cannot do so from where he's at.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's receiving instructions to encrypt.
19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. The reason why the communication -- the
20 communication between General Tolimir and General Miletic indicates that
21 material is being sent from General Tolimir to Mr. Jevdjevic for the
22 purpose of encryption for on-sending to General Miletic. Now, when
23 Mr. Jevdjevic says he doesn't know where Tolimir was operating from, my
24 submission is that he has to answer that against the document that
25 demonstrates that he's in regular -- in contact with General Tolimir for
1 the purpose of encryption because General Tolimir doesn't have that
2 capability where he is, and so he must know where General Tolimir is.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if -- does that establish where he operates
4 from --
5 MR. THOMAS: I'm not trying to establish by using this document
6 where Tolimir was operating from. I'm impeaching him when he says he
7 doesn't know. The document doesn't tell us where Tolimir was. Now, once
8 I've impeached him, I can go and ask him -- once I put the document to
9 him on impeached him on that point, well, depending what his answers are,
10 I can ask him again where the forward command post --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my problem. You see, if you depend on what
12 the answers are, that's a fishing expedition, Mr. Thomas. You see, if
13 you impeach, you have incontrovertible information with you which
14 contradicts what the witness is going to say. You're not going to find
15 out still from the witness some information that you may use to impeach.
16 MR. THOMAS: Except, sir, that if the witness says, "You're
17 right, I did know," then I can ask him.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is -- you're saying exactly what I'm saying
19 shouldn't happen.
20 MR. THOMAS: But --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the witness says -- impeachment is not
22 dependent on what the witness is going to say. Impeachment is done on
23 information that is in your possession which is contrary to information
24 that the witness has already given, not which he may give. And then you
25 say "Sir, you said A, B, C, D. Is that correct?" "Yes." "I show you
1 this document. Is that the -- do you know this document?" "Yes." "Is
2 it correct?" "Yes, it is correct." "I'll show you the content. The
3 document says -- contradicts your A, B, C, D. It says X, Y, Z."
4 MR. THOMAS: And he agrees with that: "You're right. It says
5 X, Y, Z." And that's meaningless without the next question which is
6 "It was X, Y, Z, wasn't it?" And that's why we would impeach him that
7 way. To get him to agree that it was X, Y, Z.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. But it was X, Y, Z not A, B, C, D.
9 MR. THOMAS: Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But not on anything that he may say during your
12 You see, what I hear you saying is for purposes of developing
13 this document that you want to use, you rely on the kind of questions --
14 answers, rather, he's likely to give as you ask him questions. Now, that
15 is a fishing expedition.
16 MR. THOMAS: I hear Your Honour. I can't add any more arguments
17 to what I already have.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then you can use the one document.
19 MR. THOMAS: Sir.
20 MR. MAIR
21 clarification on the purpose for XN220. Now that we've had this long
22 discussion, I'm a bit confused. If Mr. Thomas could just state the
23 purpose for XN220, the first document -- sorry, excuse me, the second
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: 220 is supposed to demonstrate that, if I may, let
1 me just quote:
2 There are -- to impeach the witness relating to the topic of the
3 existence of other forward command posts at Zepa.
4 As I understand it.
5 MR. MAIR
6 document is used for that impeachment and for the sole purpose of
7 impeachment and for no other purpose, then I have no difficulty.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
9 MR. THOMAS: That's how I understood the position, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.
12 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that, Mr. Jevdjevic. We thought we
15 must give you a little longer break. I hope you didn't mind that.
16 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
18 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, there was a question I wanted to ask you about
20 radio-relay stations. As I understand it, for radio-relay messages to be
21 transmitted across a radio-relay route between radio-relay stations, the
22 signal is directional; right? They are sent in a specific direction?
23 A. Analogous means that it is not protected, and protected are
24 protected. But both have to be directional. Analogous does not mean
25 directional necessarily.
1 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I don't know how analogous got into the
2 question, because it wasn't in my question.
3 For a message to be sent along a radio-relay route, it needs to
4 be transmitted in a specific direction?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And for the radio -- for the communications centre or node
7 receiving the -- the message, the receiver needs to be tuned to the
8 direction from which the signal is coming; correct?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And if either of those are not aligned, you don't have a
11 connection and a break in the route therefore.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. If enemy forces or if anybody wished to disrupt the progress of a
14 signal along a radio-relay route, would that be -- would that be
16 A. Yes, that would be difficult for them.
17 Q. Are the radio-relay routes on the republic of -- or were the
18 radio-relay communication centres on the territory of the RS well
19 protected, well defended?
20 A. In what sense do you mean that?
21 Q. Well, was there -- was there physical protection? Were there --
22 were there armed security units there or any other means of military
23 protection? I'm not talking about crypto-protection. I'm talking about
24 actual physical military protection.
25 A. Those radio-relay nodes that were near enemy positions had their
1 own protection, that is to say, the crew at that node or hub had armed
2 soldiers there.
3 Q. And presumably that would be to ensure that the communications
4 system was not disrupted? One of the reasons.
5 A. Yes, yes, to prevent any kind of sabotage or diversion by the
7 Q. Could you disrupt a communication along a radio-relay route
8 simply by changing the alignment of the receivers?
9 A. That crew was only supposed to make sure that no one attacks that
10 hub or node.
11 Q. I understand. Let's -- let's talk about a situation where we
12 have a communications centre or node with no military protection and an
13 authority has free access to this particular node. Could they disrupt
14 communication along that radio-relay route simply by changing the
15 alignment of the receivers on that node?
16 A. Technically that would be possible, but I've never heard of that
17 kind of thing happening during the course of the war in our parts.
18 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to go back once again to Zepa, and you spoke
19 of the location of the forward command post, which you said was at
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Sorry, Mr. Thomas. Mr. Jevdjevic doesn't
22 get any translation.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the interpreter starts
24 interpreting, I hear the Prosecutor speaking at a very high volume, which
25 is stressful.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that, Mr. Jevdjevic. Let's see if
2 we can help.
3 Can you try again, Mr. Thomas?
4 MR. THOMAS: Can I proceed? Yes, sir.
5 Q. You were talking about forward command posts at Zepa. You spoke,
6 first of all, of there being three forward command posts. You said you
7 moved twice and there were three forward command posts for the operation.
8 Can you tell me the location of the three forward command posts?
9 A. Krivace, Glodjani, Zlovrh.
10 Q. And in that order? Was that the order in which they were
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. THOMAS: Could we have document XN220, please.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Jevdjevic, I'm not certain if you've seen this document
15 before. It is General Krstic's battle order for the operations against
16 Zepa. You will see that immediately above the order numbered 5 on the
17 first page we have reference to the Krivace command post, which you have
18 already spoken about. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the next page --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Thomas. I was slow on the uptake.
22 You said immediately before the -- what numbered 5?
23 MR. THOMAS: Your Honour, that's quite correct. We need to
24 scroll down on the English version. I'm sorry. I was reading off a hard
25 copy. Immediately above number 5 we have reference to the Krivace
1 command post.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Command post. Thank you so much.
3 MR. THOMAS:
4 Q. On the next page, please, immediately above the number 5, we have
5 reference to another command post, don't we?
6 A. Could you please tell me once again which number you want me to
7 look at?
8 Q. Above the number 5.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what is your comment in relation to the reference to this
11 other command post?
12 A. This is the command post of a Tactical Group from the
13 Zvornik Brigade, as far as I can read here, that took part in this
14 operation. That is to say that it is not a command post of the
15 Drina Corps that was actually carrying out this operation where I was.
16 This is a command post of a lower-ranking unit that took part in that
18 Q. Where was it specifically?
19 A. It is written here. It says in the village of Podzeplje.
20 Q. Do you know in what facility?
21 A. In the village of Podzeplje, but I don't know in what facility.
22 That village was about 3 or 4 kilometres away from my command post.
23 Q. Did you go there?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you have communications with them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What -- did you have secure communications with them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were there other command posts for other units involved in Zepa
5 other than this one?
6 A. The order specifies the initial command posts for all the units
7 involved, and that's the way it goes down the chain vertically.
8 Q. My question was: Were there other command posts for other units?
9 A. Of course. Of course. Of course. All units received their
10 command posts through an order.
11 Q. Can you tell me -- tell us, please, where the other command posts
13 A. Well, I can tell you, for instance, if I read this order.
14 However, my duty was only to know where my command posts were.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but do you know where other command posts
16 were? If you don't know, you don't know.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe at that point in time I did
18 know roughly, but all of that is nearby. I can communicate with
19 everyone, so it didn't really matter to me that much. Probably I did
20 know approximately.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know now? Can you remember any now?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No, no. I just remember
23 the ones where I was.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Thomas.
1 MR. THOMAS:
2 Q. All right, Mr. Jevdjevic. I've nearly finished. I've just got a
3 couple of questions that I want to ask you about your service, please.
4 First of all, you applied for and got double years of service for
5 your pension from the VJ in respect of the time you spent serving in the
6 VRS specifically from up until March 1996; is that right?
7 A. Could you please repeat that, because I seem to be hearing both
8 you and the interpreter at the same time, so I didn't quite understand
9 what you were saying.
10 Q. Okay. You receive a military pension?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It covers your entire period of service in the JNA, the
13 30th Personnel Centre, VRS, and the VJ, doesn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In respect of the years you spent in the VRS while the war was
16 occurring in Bosnia, you received double years' service for your pension;
17 is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. From the period 1 September 1994 until the
20 31st of January, 1995, we have heard evidence that the money for -- or
21 salaries stopped getting paid for members of the 30th Personnel Centre.
22 Was your salary stopped during that period?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you successfully apply for the payment of that salary
25 in -- many years later, in 2001?
1 A. Yes. There was a procedure before the organs in charge in
2 Serbia. I personally did not ask for that, but that was resolved in a
3 uniformed manner for all.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
5 microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. THOMAS: My apologies, Madam Interpreter.
8 Q. You spoke yesterday, Mr. Jevdjevic, of your training in the VJ,
9 specifically you said that you were serving in the VRS until you were
10 sent for a year's training in the VJ, whereupon you returned to the VRS,
11 which is where you spent your time until you retired. You recall giving
12 that testimony yesterday?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were transferred to the military school on the
15 9th of June, 1998. Does that sound right, sir?
16 A. Probably, if there is information to that effect. I don't
17 remember it exactly, but probably it was then, 1998.
18 Q. And you were returned by order of the chief of personnel of the
19 General Staff of the VJ to the 30th Personnel Centre on the
20 2nd of August, 1999. Does that sound right, sir?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mair.
22 MR. MAIR
23 and the witness seems a bit unclear. I don't know if it would be
24 beneficial for the witness to view the document. That might clarify some
25 of this.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
2 MR. THOMAS: That won't be necessary, sir. Thank you.
3 Q. So you were transferred back to the 30th Personnel Centre
4 August 1999. Does that sound correct?
5 A. Yes. I was returned to the VRS because I was its member, but
6 this paperwork was never available to me, and I really don't know.
7 Q. Okay. All right. Well, here's something you might know, sir.
8 Can you explain to Their Honours why you didn't tell them that you served
9 in Kosovo?
10 A. Nobody asked me that.
11 Q. You were asked to summarise your military service after 1995.
12 A. Nobody asked me that. I can always say that. I have no problem
13 in saying that.
14 Q. Well, you didn't say that yesterday. But, nevertheless, you
15 acknowledge you served in Kosovo?
16 A. During my schooling, the aggression against Serbia occurred. We
17 were all there in that academy, the school centre where we had been
18 reassigned, and then we were all assigned to certain war units, and I
19 have no reservations in saying that to anyone, any time, anywhere.
20 Q. Except --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Jevdjevic, I will ask you one more time.
22 Please listen to the question and answer the question. The question
23 simply is: But nevertheless, you acknowledge you served in Kosovo?
24 Your answer is going to either be a Yes or a No. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That way, you'll go home quicker.
2 MR. THOMAS:
3 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, I just want to see that I have certain things
5 And as it -- through the Bosnian war you were fighting as a
6 member of the VRS; is that right?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. You had your status regulated through the 30th Personnel Centre?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were transferred to the military academy in 1998?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The military academy was in Belgrade?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. While you were at the military academy, you were deployed to
16 A. Yes. That was our own choice.
17 Q. You were ordered there by order of the chief of the personnel
18 administration of the General Staff of the VJ, assigned to the
19 VJ 3rd Army.
20 A. Yes. Some of us did not respond to that call, others did. Those
21 who did not went back to the VRS, and those who did were redeployed to
22 the 3rd Army.
23 Q. And after service in Kosovo, you returned and were deployed back
24 to the VRS. Is that your position?
25 A. No. I came back, completed my schooling, and after completing my
1 schooling I returned to the army of the VRS.
2 Q. All right. Mr. Jevdjevic, thank you. That concludes my
3 questions for you.
4 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.
6 Mr. Mair, any re-examination?
7 MR. MAIR
8 think it would go much quicker if I could have that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right.
10 MR. MAIR
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. MAIR
13 you for the moment. I think this will be rather short, I hope.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mair.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Mair:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jevdjevic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. If we could just pick up the -- the topic you were just
19 discussing with Mr. Thomas regarding your time at the school in Belgrade
20 and Kosovo. Do you recall how many members of the VRS attended this
21 school at the same time as you?
22 A. Yes. There were 32 of us.
23 Q. And at page 50, line 12, starting at line 12, you said:
24 "Some of us did not respond to that call, others did."
25 Could you tell us how many responded to that call?
1 A. Thirty of us.
2 Q. The 30 of you who responded to the call, did they all go to the
3 same place?
4 A. No. We were deployed all over the war theatre of
5 Serbia and Montenegro. I happened to be assigned to the garrison at
7 Q. Who was the Chief of Staff of the VJ when you were deployed to
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Very well. I just have one other topic. During your testimony
11 with Mr. Thomas, you discussed --
12 A. I do apologise. I think it was General Ojdanic. I think it was
13 General Ojdanic. And General Pavkovic was the commander of the 3rd Army.
14 Q. Okay. During your testimony with Mr. Thomas you were asked a
15 series of questions about Pribicevac, the forward command post during the
16 Krivaja 95 operation. Do you recall that testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long were you at the forward command post at Pribicevac?
19 Until what date?
20 A. Until the 11th of July, 1995.
21 Q. A that point, on the 11th of July, where did you go?
22 A. I disbanded the communications centre for commanding that
23 operation. And acting on the personal orders of General Mladic, I was
24 transferred to establish the communications centre for the Stupcanica
25 operation in the general area of Zepa.
1 Q. When you say that you disbanded the communications centre, what
2 do you mean? What was the -- what did you actually do?
3 A. I set up a new communications centre to serve the needs of the
4 command post for the operation at Zepa.
5 Q. Regarding the disbanding of the old command post, what sort of
6 communications were left in the area, if anything? And by "the area,"
7 I'm referring to Srebrenica.
8 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, Your Honours. I don't see how that arises,
9 that question arises out of cross-examination.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mair.
11 MR. MAIR
12 dealt with the communications at both Srebrenica and Zepa, as well as
13 several intercepts at that point in time, and so the question is relevant
14 as to the existence of the communications system and conversations that
15 took place in that time.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure I understand what you are
17 saying, Mr. Mair. You know, the -- do -- how is it relevant to the
18 existence the communications system and conversations? Are you going to
19 tell us all about the conversations that took place? I'm not quite sure
20 what you're saying.
21 MR. MAIR
22 Mr. Jevdjevic several intercepts that took place during the 14th and the
23 16th of July and a little bit later. Mr. Jevdjevic just discussed that
24 on the 11th of July he disbanded the forward command post. I am simply
25 trying to see what the effect of that was.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Given that the intercepts that were given are
2 after the 11th -- are dated after the 11th?
3 MR. MAIR
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The objection is overruled, and I will
5 allow the question.
6 MR. MAIR
7 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, I will repeat my question:
8 "Regarding the disbanding -- the disbanding of the old command
9 post, what sort of communications were left in the area, if anything, and
10 by "the area," I'm referring to Srebrenica."
11 A. No communications were left. When the communications centre is
12 disbanded, there's no longer any possibility of commanding the units that
13 had participated in that operation.
14 Q. Mr. Jevdjevic, I have no further questions.
15 MR. MAIR
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Mair.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Jevdjevic, I would like to ask
20 you one or two questions regarding the transmission, the communications
21 system of the VRS. You told us that almost all transmissions or
22 communications went through Serbia and Montenegro; is that right?
23 A. No. The army of VRS used stationary hubs at Crni Vrh, Cer, and
24 Strazbenica, which were in the immediate vicinity of the border with
25 Serbia. These were the end points used to reflect certain communications
1 back to our own side. The VRS had its independent communications system,
2 and only the Drina Corps at the far east, in order to communicate with
3 certain of its brigades, had to carry out transit through points on
4 several hills which are actually very close to the border with Serbia.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Just to be sure I understand
6 correctly, so you're talking about relays. Those relays which were
7 allowing communications to go through the Drina Corps army did not go
8 through Serbia and Montenegro? Is that what you're saying? I thought
9 that this is what you said during your testimony, but now I'm a little
11 A. The VRS had a completely autonomous communication system,
12 completely independent. Only at its eastern end, where the Drina Corps
13 was, near the River Drina, because of the lack of optical line of sight
14 with certain units we used three relays on the territory of Serbia and
15 Montenegro which we used only for purposes of transit of communications
16 for the needs of the Drina Corps of the VRS.
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.
18 This is what I thought you said earlier.
19 But now regarding the communications, they were all encrypted; is
20 that right?
21 A. All written communications were encrypted, but only some oral
22 communications were encrypted.
23 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. Was the VJ able to
24 know what written communications said? Were they able to decode those
25 communications? Were they able to get the codes?
1 A. No. No. Our units had the codes according to its level, the
2 level of the unit. So only units having corresponding code books could
3 decrypt each other's messages, and this was all organised by unit.
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] But in every army you have
5 specialised services, specialised in decoding transmissions. It's a
6 classic case; right?
7 A. Yes. I'm being very practical in my explanations. To avoid
8 having certain levels of command bypassing their immediate superiors, the
9 brigade had one code book which was valid as far as the corps command,
10 and it was only on that stretch that they could encode and encrypt and
11 decrypt. And then further on another code would be used. So only at the
12 two end points could the messages be decrypted.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. But according to you,
14 the Yugoslav Army did not have the necessary codes to decode these
15 transmissions or these communications?
16 A. Well, I really don't know that. I don't know. I only know as
17 far as the Drina Corps level is concern. So I really couldn't answer
18 your question.
19 What we encrypted at the level of the Drina Corps and within the
20 VRS as an independent communication system, I'm sure the VRS did not have
21 those code books. I'm absolutely sure of that.
22 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You mean the VJ, not the VRS?
23 A. Yes, yes. Yes. The VJ was independent and autonomous, as was
24 the VRS. And no one, including the VJ, could decode messages sent by the
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, that's theoretically the
2 case, but in practice there were many VJ officers such as you who were in
3 the VRS. That allowed, in a certain way, for codes to be given to the
4 Yugoslav Army; right?
5 MR. MAIR
6 can understand. "There are many VJ officers such as you." I don't know
7 that we've had evidence of that. I just want to make sure that was not a
8 translation issue, that's all.
9 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Is that a question for me?
10 MR. MAIR
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said, in fact,
12 that there were VJ officers who worked in the VRS, just like our witness
13 today, and this is why I wanted to know. He was, if I understood
14 correctly, a VJ officer before working for the VRS. He was still paid by
15 the VJ. And then afterwards he was trained at the VJ academy. He was
16 first -- well, he was in the VJ when he went to Kosovo. Maybe I sort of
17 shortened the question or put it all together, but that was, in fact, my
19 A. You've put several questions. I personally felt, and I still
20 feel that way, as a member of the VRS. I was sent for schooling to
21 Serbia following an order of the VRS. And if anything urgent happened, I
22 would immediately be sent back. But now I'll answer your question.
23 As regards encryption --
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm interrupting you only to tell
25 you the following: What you're saying is not exactly true. It's not the
1 VRS who sent you to Kosovo; right?
2 A. When the VRS sent us for schooling, we entered the chain of
3 command of the school, and all my colleagues who were in Greece at the
4 academy and a colleague of mine who was in a French school in Saint Cyr,
5 they all became part of that chain of command of -- of the school or
6 academy where they were. We shared the same schoolrooms, the same
7 facilities --
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I would like to stop you here
9 because that was not my question, and I would not like to go into this to
10 know whether some Yugoslav officers who were on training ... but that was
11 not my question. My question was the following: I wanted to know if, by
12 the fact that there were many VJ officers in the VRS, if that did not
13 contribute, was this not an important factor in the sense that the
14 communications could be decoded by the VJ? There were means. It was
15 easy to just share codes or to give codes. Maybe for you it was not
16 really important that the VJ made decode your transit communications; is
17 that right?
18 A. In -- to be involved in encryption involves the highest
19 confidentiality, the highest state secret. I did not complete the course
20 for encryption because I failed to fulfil some security conditions. I'm
21 just saying this to show how strict these conditions were and how
22 important it was for all those involved in encryption to observe the
23 strictest confidentiality. I never heard of anyone involved in
24 encryption selling or lending or giving anybody else the code books.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much
1 for your answers.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions by the
3 Bench, Mr. Mair?
4 MR. MAIR
5 Further Re-examination by Mr. Mair:
6 Q. Just so that we're clear, Mr. Jevdjevic, you were not a VJ
7 officer at any point in time; is that correct?
8 A. During the war from 1992 onwards, from the point of time when the
9 VRS was established, I was always a member of the VRS.
10 MR. MAIR
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. MAIR
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Mr. Thomas? Thank you so much.
15 Mr. Jevdjevic, that brings us to the end of your testimony.
16 Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal, and may you
17 travel well back home. You are now excused. You may stand down. Thank
18 you so much.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. That concludes the witnesses
22 that we have for the balance of today. Our next witness is scheduled for
23 Monday morning.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Have you finished? She wanted to tell you
25 something before you sit down.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I better make sure.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm okay.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then we stand adjourned to Monday morning
5 at 9.00, Courtroom II.
6 Court adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.58 a.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day
9 of March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.