1 Wednesday, 24 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
10 Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.
11 This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus
12 Momcilo Perisic.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Could we please have the appearances for the day, starting with
15 the Prosecution.
16 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dan Saxon,
17 Bronagh McKenna, and Inger de Ru for the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
19 And Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom taking part in these
22 proceedings. Mr. Perisic's Defence is presented today by
23 Mr. Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, Tina Drolec, and Boris Zorko.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.
25 May the record show that we're still sitting pursuant to
1 Rule 15 bis in Judge David's absence.
2 Good afternoon, Mr. Malcic.
3 WITNESS: STOJAN MALCIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you know this already, but it's just my job
7 to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the
8 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
9 nothing else but the truth.
10 Thank you so much.
11 Mr. Saxon.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Saxon:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Malcic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. My name is Dan Saxon, and I'm representing the Prosecution today.
16 I've got some questions for you. I'd ask at the outset that if you
17 could, sir, please try to answer my questions as briefly, concisely,
18 whenever possible, preferably with a yes or a no whenever possible, and
19 that way we'll get through this more quickly, sir. And if you don't
20 understand one of my questions, please feel free to stop me and tell me,
22 A. All right.
23 Q. First of all, there are a couple points from your direct
24 examination that I would simply like to clarify. On Monday, and this was
25 at page 11.188 of the transcript, starting at line 21 -- actually,
1 starting at line 19, you were talking about events right at the start of
2 the war after you were exchanged, and you found yourself in Lukavica, and
3 Mr. Lukic asked you:
4 "So how is it that you came to Han Pijesak? Who did you report
5 to? What happened there?"
6 And you replied:
7 "On the 30th of May, 1992, an officer came, a signalsman, a
8 colonel whom I knew from earlier on, because he was chief of
9 communications in the 2nd Military District."
10 Can you give us the name of that colonel, of that signalsman?
11 A. That's the late Colonel Radomir Prole.
12 Q. Okay. And then continuing, you said to Mr. Lukic:
13 "He said, 'I had such trouble finding you,' because he heard
14 from other officers that I had been exchanged and that I was in
16 Do you recall who these other officers were?
17 A. When I came to the Main Staff in those first days, I saw a list
18 of officers who were in the Main Staff, were the ones who were looking
19 for me by name. I did this job since 1984 in the JNA, and many of my
20 fellow officers knew that I was performing this duty before.
21 Q. Sure. That's understood. My question was a little bit simpler,
22 sir. My question simply was do you know the names of these other
23 officers who had spoken to Rade Prole about you? Can you tell us their
24 names? If not, that's fine.
25 A. I knew a large number of active-duty officers in Lukavica in the
1 unit where I was exchanged. I used to meet with them on a daily basis.
2 Prole was already in the Main Staff --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Malcic.
4 Sorry. Do you know the names of the officers that this gentleman was
5 referring to? Your answer is going to be, "Yes, I do," or, "No, I don't
6 know them." Then if he asks you for the names, can you just give the
7 names. Then we can move a little faster, sir, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment I cannot remember all
9 the names of all the officers who were in Lukavica at the time.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. I understood, sir. My question is simply this: Do you know the
12 names of the officers who spoke to Rade Prole about you at that time?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And just before you answer.
14 [Microphone not activated] ... interpretation? I think because
15 you don't have --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't have your earphones on your head, we're
18 hearing the interpretation coming through your -- so it's really
19 disturbing us.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise. The difficulty I'm having is
21 this is the one place I found that I can actually kind of hear, but let
22 me see if I can --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, because of your problem --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not doing it to be casual.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, okay.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: But let me see if I can work something else out.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Sorry about that.
3 Go ahead, Mr. Malcic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Prole came from
5 Crna Rijeka. He was looking for me specifically for me in Lukavica by
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. Okay. I'm not going to belabour this any longer.
9 Also on Monday --
10 MR. SAXON: This is beginning, Your Honours, at page 11.225 of
11 the transcript, lines 13 to 15.
12 Q. Mr. Malcic, Mr. Lukic asked you how, before the war broke out in
13 1991 and 1992, how you received your salary in practical terms, and you
14 explained that before the war active-duty officers and civilians serving
15 in the JNA received their salaries through their accounts in the
16 Post Savings Bank. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on page 11.225 of the transcript, beginning at line 24, you
19 explained that when you became a member of the VRS initially, your
20 current account in the Post Savings Bank was still used to transfer your
21 salaries and fringe benefits. Do you recall that testimony?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Just so the record is clear, so at that time these salaries and
24 fringe benefits were coming from the FRY, the FRY?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then you described -- there was a discussion that there were
2 some disruptions in the system, there were problems due to the
3 hyperinflation that occurred at that time, et cetera, and then at page
4 11.227 of the transcript, line 13, Mr. Lukic asked you:
5 "Who among the members of the VRS was receiving their salary in
6 this fashion?"
7 And you replied:
8 "You mean in the way that I just described? All the
9 active-duty personnel and civilians serving in the VRS did that. As far
10 as I know, this system of payment was the same for members of the VJ.
11 They continued to receive their salaries through the Post Savings Bank.
12 Nothing changed in the system compared to the previous period."
13 Do you recall the testimony that I'm reading back to you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. My question for you, sir, is after the establishment of the
16 30th Personnel Centre, did this system of payments of salary and fringe
17 benefits continue for the active-duty personnel and civilians who were
18 serving in the 30th Personnel Centre?
19 A. The method of payments for active-duty servicemen and civilians
20 serving in the JNA but later remained with the VRS continued to receive
21 their salaries through the Post Savings Banks as they did before the
22 30th Personnel Centre was established.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the Prosecutor
24 please switch off the microphone while the witness is talking, and could
25 the witness move closer to the microphones. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You heard that, Mr. Saxon?
2 MR. SAXON: I have heard it, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, the interpreters request that you move
4 closer to the microphone when you answer so that the microphone can pick
5 up your voice. Thank you.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. I'd like to move on to another topic, Mr. Malcic.
8 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness was is Exhibit P2128.
9 Q. Mr. Malcic, my colleague Mr. Lukic showed you this document
10 yesterday, and you describe that --
11 MR. SAXON: If we could go to the next page in both languages,
13 Q. This was discussed at pages 11.273 to 11.276 of the transcript.
14 And you described this document yesterday as a compound order of the head
15 of the personal -- personnel administration of the VJ General Staff.
16 MR. SAXON: And if we could zoom in, please, on the middle of the
17 page in both languages, but we need to scroll more to the -- we need to
18 see the right-hand side of the document in B/C/S.
19 Q. And yesterday -- you recall yesterday, Mr. Malcic, that -- we see
20 there's a code there, "3500," and yesterday you explained to us that that
21 code is for the Main Staff or indicates the Main Staff of the VRS. Do
22 you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SAXON: Can we leave the document, please, and can we show
25 the witness Exhibit P2113.
1 Q. While we're waiting for the exhibit, General, I assume that you
2 are familiar with a man who served in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps named
3 Dragomir Milosevic?
4 A. Let me correct you. I'm not a general. I'm a colonel. As for
5 the document relating to Dragomir Milosevic and his being in the
6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps is something that I am familiar with.
7 Q. And he eventually became the commander of the
8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We see here -- we see that this exhibit is a similar kind of
11 order to the last document that we saw.
12 MR. SAXON: Can we please turn to page 3 in English e-court and
13 page 3 --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the name "Milosevic."
15 All I can see here is a person called Babic.
16 MR. SAXON: I think you'll see it soon, sir.
17 Can we turn to page 3 in the B/C/S as well. Can we scroll --
18 Q. Do you see the entry now, Colonel -- or, Mr. Malcic, with respect
19 to Dragomir Milosevic?
20 A. Yes. The Chief of Staff and also deputy commander,
21 Major-General Dragomir Milosevic, father's name Milorad.
22 MR. SAXON: In the B/C/S version on the screen, please, can we
23 move to the right so we can see the far right hand -- thank you very
25 Q. And, General, you'll see now a code --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Colonel.
2 MR. SAXON: I'm very, very sorry. I'm very, very sorry.
3 Q. Colonel Malcic, you will see here on the right-hand in the entry
4 for Dragomir Milosevic, a code, 3560. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Can you confirm that that code number, 3560, is the number
7 indicating the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
8 A. Yes. According to the establishment of Army of Republika Srpska,
9 each corps has its code, and each organisational unit has its code.
10 Therefore, you will come across different codes in these kind of orders.
11 Every -- every unit had a different numerical code.
12 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
13 MR. SAXON: Can we leave this document now, please, and can we
14 show the witness Exhibit P2114. And could we please go to page 2 in both
16 Q. Colonel, you'll see this is a similar order for the transfer and
17 appointment of officers, and I hope you see in your version an entry for
18 Radoslav Krstic on page 2 in front of you. Do you see it?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, General Krstic became the deputy commander and then
21 the commander of the Drina Corps; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On the right-hand side of the page, there's another four-letter
24 code - or four-number code, I should say - 3676.
25 A. Yes. That's the numerical code for the Drina Corps, just like
1 every other corps had their own code. We didn't use the same codes for
2 all corps in the Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Thank you for that. We can leave this document now.
4 Mr. Malcic, yesterday, at pages 11.287 to 11.291 of the
5 transcript, you discussed with Mr. Lukic the system of promotions in the
6 VRS. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And on page 11.291, lines 9 to 13, you described how since
9 promotions affected salaries, you would send a certified copy of a VRS
10 promotion order to the 30th Personnel Centre. Do you recall?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And on the same page, lines 16 to 23, you explained that this
13 order would be typed up in the 30th Personnel Centre, and then it would
14 be sent to the accounting centre for implementation. Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, before the salary for an officer serving in the VRS would be
17 increased by the accounting centre in the FRY, the promotion first had to
18 be verified by the VJ. Isn't that right?
19 A. Yes, in order to establish that the decision was taken in line
20 with the applicable rules, that no irregularities occurred in the
21 promotion of a certain officer.
22 Q. However, not every VRS promotion forwarded to the
23 30th Personnel Centre was verified by the VJ; right?
24 A. All my orders that I forwarded to the 30th Personnel Centre, as
25 far as I can remember, passed the verification in the
1 30th Personnel Centre. If, however, there were any exceptions, perhaps I
2 can explain.
3 Q. Well, I'm asking you, you see. I'm asking you to tell us whether
4 every VRS promotion forwarded to the 30th Personnel Centre was verified
5 by the VJ. Now, you've just given an answer relating to the orders that
6 you forwarded, and you referred to "if there were any exceptions."
7 I need to understand your testimony, sir. Which is your
8 testimony? To your knowledge were all of these promotions verified by
9 the VJ?
10 A. All the promotions up to the rank of colonel and within the scope
11 of my work, as far as I know, all these promotions were verified and
13 Q. How about promotions in the rank of general? Were all those
14 promotions sent from the VRS to the VJ approved?
15 A. Promotions of officers from the rank of colonel to the rank of
16 general were not forwarded to the Personnel Council that we mentioned
17 yesterday. That was the subject to be decided by the staff, the inner
18 staff of the commander.
19 Q. I'm going to stop you.
20 A. And there was a specific procedure that applied in such
22 Q. My question was different, Mr. Malcic. I'll ask it again.
23 For promotions to the rank of general or within the general
24 ranks, for example from major-general to lieutenant general, et cetera,
25 were all such promotions sent from the VRS to the
1 30th Personnel Centre --
2 MR. SAXON: I see my colleague on his feet.
3 Q. Okay. Were all such promotions verified by the VJ?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I think that on
6 page 10, line 23, gave an answer to this question to the extent that he
7 knows about this topic. The question that is now being put by Mr. Saxon
8 has to do with ranks above that of colonel, whereas he spoke about what
9 he knew, up to the rank of colonel.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And can't he tell us what he knows, if anything,
11 about the [indiscernible]?
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that sense I agree, but perhaps
13 that is the way the question should have been phrased, whether he knew
14 about such and such.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON:
17 Q. Do you know, sir, whether promotions to the rank of general, VRS
18 promotions to the rank of general that were sent to the
19 30th Personnel Centre, whether all -- do you know -- let me start again.
20 Do you know, sir, whether all VRS promotions to the rank of general that
21 were forwarded to the 30th Personnel Centre were verified by the VJ?
22 A. As far as I know, no.
23 Q. I want to make sure I understood that response. So your response
24 is, No, not all of those VRS promotions to the rank of general were
25 verified by the VJ. Some promotions were not verified by the VJ. Some
1 general promotions were not verified by the VJ.
2 Is that your evidence?
3 A. Not in the Army of Yugoslavia. These promotions were not
4 verified for them to receive these salaries. May I explain?
5 Q. Well, I'm sorry, sir. It's my job to ask the questions today, so
6 bear with me for a moment.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Since you asked to make sure that you
9 understood what the gentleman said, he should be entitled to explain his
10 answer, since it flows from your question of a lack of understanding of
11 what he had said.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.
13 MR. SAXON: The problem, Your Honour, is that the witness gave a
14 different response. He says:
15 "These promotions were not verified for them to receive these
17 So I want to break that down, quite frankly, because I don't know
18 exactly what the witness means by that, but I'd simply like to do the
19 questioning myself.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but what Mr. Guy-Smith is saying is once you
21 say to the witness, "I want to make sure I understand your answer," then
22 he has to explain himself.
23 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness -- Mr. Malcic, you said:
25 "Not in the Army of Yugoslavia. These promotions were not
1 verified for them to receive these salaries."
2 So what you would like to explain?
3 A. Promotions of officers at the rank of colonel to the rank of
4 general of the Army of Republika Srpska were made on the basis of the
5 Law on the Army of Republika Srpska and other bylaws that were not
6 compatible with the regulations in the Army of Yugoslavia, in order for
7 the rank to be recognised so that they would receive that salary. The
8 basic idea was that officers should be appointed and promoted in
9 accordance with the regulations of the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 However, in order for them to receive salaries, this had to be
11 accorded with regulations in the Army of Yugoslavia. That is to say that
12 we had two systems of laws, if I can put it that way, according to which
13 we worked, the laws of Republika Srpska; and in order to have that
14 verified, it had to be adjusted to the regulations in the
15 Army of Yugoslavia so that it could be sent to the accounting centre so
16 their salaries could be calculated.
17 Let me be specific. This is what the problem was: All officers
18 in the Army of Republika Srpska who had been promoted to the rank of
19 general did not have the right level of education. They had not
20 completed the School of National Defence. And that was the basic
21 prerequisite on the basis of the regulations of the Army of Yugoslavia
22 for a person to become general. However, that was not a prerequisite in
23 the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. So if I -- if I understand that explanation, going back to my
25 earlier question, not all of the generals who were -- not all of the
1 promotions to general who were promoted by the VRS were verified,
2 affirmed, if you'd like to use that term, by the VJ.
3 I need a verbal response, sir.
4 A. Well, it was decided by some organ. I don't know exactly which
5 organ it was that decided that. But as far as I know, that was the
6 prerequisite. For them to recognise that someone can receive a salary,
7 they had to complete a certain school just like everybody else, all other
8 officers who had become generals in the JNA and later on in the Army of
9 Yugoslavia, the VJ.
10 Q. And if certain officers had not completed the prerequisites of
11 the VJ, then their promotions would not be verified; is that right?
12 A. They would not have been verified by that organ of the VJ, but
13 they did have the ranks of the VRS, and they commanded their troops as
14 generals of the VRS.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. They would receive the salary of a colonel, at the rank of
18 Q. A few moments ago you made the comment - this is on
19 page 13, line 22:
20 "That is to say that we had two systems of laws, if I can put
21 that way, according to which we worked, the laws of Republika Srpska ..."
22 And then it says:
23 "In order to have that verified, it had to be adjusted to the
24 regulations in the Army of Yugoslavia."
25 I just want to clarify that. When you were referring to two
1 systems of laws that were at work here, you're referring to the laws of
2 Republika Srpska and the -- the laws of the
3 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
4 A. Yes. I, as personnel officer in the Army of Republika Srpska,
5 worked on promotions and appointments in the Army of Republika Srpska
6 according to the regulations of the Army of Republika Srpska. When I was
7 supposed to send those documents to the 30th Personnel Centre in order
8 for the salaries to be calculated, then I had to check whether all of our
9 documents would fit into all of these regulations on the basis of which
10 we could receive salaries. It is only then that I could send them to the
11 30th Personnel Centre.
12 Q. All right. But I think in answer to -- okay. I think the answer
13 to my question was a yes. I think I will leave it at that.
14 I'd like to move on to another topic, sir. You mentioned in your
15 testimony, I believe, Mico Grubor.
16 MR. SAXON: Could we show the witness what is P1678, please.
17 Q. Mr. Malcic, you'll see --
18 MR. SAXON: If we can go to the next page in B/C/S, please. The
19 next page in B/C/S again, please.
20 Q. You'll see, Mr. Malcic, that this is a copy of the personnel file
21 of Mr. Mico Grubor.
22 MR. SAXON: And if we can turn, please, to page 6 in both
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I'm advised that there are seven
1 translations of this document in English, so if you could say which
2 translation you're referring to and give us the page number of that
3 translation, then we'll be able to get to the English part of that.
4 MR. SAXON: Absolutely, Your Honour, and that was my error.
5 If we can go to the English excerpt that is 0611-6012.
6 Q. And you'll see, Mr. Malcic, that on these pages we see the record
7 of the different posts that Mr. Grubor held.
8 MR. SAXON: And if we can go -- Your Honour, I need to explain
9 where -- where I am procedurally.
10 In the English version of this page -- let me start again. The
11 English translation of this section of the personnel file is incomplete.
12 The very last entries were not translated previously. They have been
13 translated now, and so the last page of this English translation now has
14 document ID number 0611-6013. If we could pull that up as the English
15 version, please, and scroll down in the B/C/S version.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: How did this document get admitted and not marked
17 for identification if the translation was incomplete?
18 MR. SAXON: This -- this document is a large personnel file,
19 Your Honour, and in March of last year, the 17th of March, to be precise,
20 Mr. Harmon was tendering a number of these personnel files through the
21 witness Bretton Randall, and at pages 4432, line 4, to 4433, line 21,
22 there was a discussion between Mr. Lukic, Mr. Harmon, and yourself,
23 Your Honour, as to the fact that at that time, a year ago, because these
24 are voluminous documents, only certain portions had been translated, and
25 the decision was taken, as I understand the record, that the parties
1 would be free to have additional portions translated if they so chose.
2 That is at the pages that --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was an order made to that effect?
4 MR. SAXON: I can't use the word "order," Your Honour, because
5 I'm quoting you, Judge Moloto, saying, "fair enough," to a colloquy
6 between Mr. Harmon and Mr. Lukic. I can't take -- take it any further,
7 Your Honour, rather than refer you to this page.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
9 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, this is now
11 a technical problem, and we were afraid that this might crop up at a
12 certain stage of the proceedings.
13 My understanding of our discussion and your decision was as
14 follows: I mean, in view of the guidelines that we abide by, namely,
15 that you, the Trial Chamber, decided that as far as big documents are
16 concerned, we only tender the relevant pages.
17 With regard to many of these personnel files - I think that there
18 are 20 or 30, and every one of them contains about 100 pages - the OTP,
19 when presenting their own case, tendered the relevant pages, the ones
20 that suited their purposes. And then they provided English translations
21 for those pages.
22 As we said in our opening statement and as we are doing now, and
23 that is why we put these documents on our 65 ter list, is the following:
24 We are tendering the relevant pages that we believe are required for our
25 case, the Defence case. The Prosecution would now like to tender some
1 other pages. I can understand that on the basis of the
2 examination-in-chief for cross-examination they can use certain pages of
3 these documents, but I do not support the general idea that the
4 Prosecution can tender yet again pages of these documents that had not
5 been originally tendered, if I understood what Mr. Saxon was saying.
6 That is the position of the Defence.
7 Now, in cross-examination, if the Prosecutor wants to use
8 something that is allowed, according to the rules, I agree with that.
9 That extra page of the document can be shown to the witness. However, we
10 don't think that it would be right for the Prosecution to tender extra
11 pages now during the Defence case. After all, their case has been
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, and we have a procedure to do that if
14 there's a need to do that. And -- but are you saying -- did I understand
15 you properly to say that you are not objecting to this one page that
16 Mr. Saxon wants to use, but not as a general rule?
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. I just want to see
18 what his line of questioning is. If it has to do with something that is
19 relevant to the testimony of this witness, I'm certainly not opposed.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. I do understand what you say. Thank
21 you so much, Mr. Lukic.
22 That "fair enough" by Judge Moloto on the 17th of March last year
23 doesn't sound like it accords with the general guideline that we have.
24 The general guideline that we have is if voluminous documents are
25 tendered, parties are allowed to pick those pages that they want to
1 tender for purposes of their case, and only those pages will then be
3 That situation that you say I said "fair enough" to, doesn't seem
4 to be exactly in line with this guideline.
5 I'm not -- I'm not blaming you for it.
6 MR. SAXON: I know.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm blaming this Judge who said so. Okay. And I
8 think we should just correct that situation. But anyway, use that page,
9 because Mr. Lukic doesn't object.
10 MR. SAXON: All right. I will use this page, and I may use
11 another page. And then we'll see where we are.
12 Q. So if we -- I'm sorry.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Apparently this page is not on e-court, so it
15 cannot be displayed. You'd have to release it. The Court Manager will
16 have to release it.
17 MR. SAXON: It was my understanding that it was available,
18 Your Honour, but I will consult with my colleague.
19 [Defence confer]
20 MR. SAXON: My colleague has just informed me that it is in
21 e-court. She's just pointed it out to me.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me talk to my colleague.
23 MR. SAXON: And I believe it has been released. It has
24 doc ID 0611-0613-ET.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: -ET?
1 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed now, Mr. Saxon.
3 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
4 Can we zoom out a little bit in the English version so we can
5 read it. We can't -- okay. And if we could go to the bottom or the end
6 of the B/C/S version. Perhaps the next page in the B/C/S version,
8 Q. You see here, Mr. Malcic, that the final entry is that
9 Mr. Grubor's military service ended on the 31st of December, 1994,
10 pursuant to a decision of Military Post 3001 in Belgrade. Do you see
11 that, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm in your hands. I have four recently
14 translated documents that pertain to the termination of the military
15 service of the -- of Mr. Grubor, the subject of this personnel file. It
16 had been my plan, my hope, to use these new translations with this
17 witness. They -- these are not documents that I'm -- I'm certainly not
18 using them for impeachment purposes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What are you using them for?
20 MR. SAXON: The only purpose -- at this point, Your Honour, the
21 only purpose would be for the truth of their contents, and I don't think
22 I'm going to win that motion. I'm going to move on at this time. That's
23 what I will do.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Then at least you got yourself out of
25 my hands into your own. Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
1 MR. SAXON: I'd like to turn to a different exhibit, please. If
2 we could show the witness what is Exhibit P1688.
3 Q. Mr. Malcic, you will see that this is the personnel file for
4 Petar Skrbic, who took your place, I believe, in the personnel department
5 in the Main Staff of the VRS.
6 A. Petar Skrbic was my superior after Mico Grubor. He did not
7 replace me.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
9 MR. SAXON: Can we please turn to doc ID, in English, 0611-5209.
10 And this will be page 7 in e-court in B/C/S.
11 Can we -- can we move forward one page in the English version,
12 please. I think we've moved back. Can we move forward again one page in
13 English. Scroll to the right, please. Okay. And can we scroll down a
14 bit, please. Thank you.
15 Q. Okay. This is a portion, as you will see, Mr. Malcic, of the
16 personnel file of Petar Skrbic, and this particular page shows a number
17 of his assignments. And in your version, I believe the third row from
18 the top, we see it says:
19 "Transferred and assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre of the
20 VJ Belgrade Garrison."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And below that we see several more assignments, if you will, that
25 "Assigned as stand-in in the vacant post of assistant chief of
1 the personnel administration for the 30th Personnel Centre."
2 There's one for 19 -- 13 January 1997, 5 August 1997, and then
3 30 June 1999. Do you see that?
4 A. Give me a minute. Yes, but this is the first time I see this
5 document, and this is the career of Petar Skrbic while he was in the JNA,
6 his movement in the career.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Malcic --
8 MR. SAXON: I'm not sure what just happened in the B/C --
9 Q. Can you confirm for me that from the 13th of January through 1997
10 through the 30th of June 1999, Petar Skrbic was serving in the
11 30th Personnel Centre according to this document?
12 A. In January 1997, I said good-bye to my superior, Petar Skrbic. I
13 went on a sick leave, and I went to live in Banja Luka. I don't know
14 what happened with his career from that moment onwards. I wouldn't like
15 to second-guess. And as I said earlier, this is the first time that I
16 see this document.
17 Q. Well, sir, I think, given your career experience, you're
18 certainly familiar with these documents. I'm asking you to look at this
19 document and confirm that it shows that from January 1997 through
20 June 1999, according to this document, Mr. Skrbic was serving in the
21 30th Personnel Centre. That is what the document shows, doesn't it?
22 A. In January 1997, after receiving treatment at the military
23 academy, I went on sick leave and then I retired and I have no idea which
24 regulations were applicable in that period. And I don't know for how
25 long this 30th Personnel Centre existed, but I do know that it was
1 dissolved after a certain period of time. I don't know the date.
2 Q. Mr. Malcic --
3 A. If I --
4 Q. Mr. Malcic, I'm going to stop you there. This is a record of
5 someone's personnel history. It's an area that you worked in for a
6 number of years. Now, I'll ask the question again.
7 According to this document, Petar Skrbic was serving in the
8 30th Personnel Centre, at least from 13 January 1997 through the
9 30th of June, 1999; isn't that right?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since, Your Honours, you have a
12 typed-up version and we have a handwritten version, if we can zoom in and
13 give an opportunity to the witness to read this carefully. I, myself,
14 also find it difficult and hard to read, so if we can enlarge the version
15 in the B/C/S, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. It is now enlarged.
17 MR. SAXON: And can we move up just a little bit, please. That's
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here:
21 "Assigned as stand-in."
22 There should be a decree to that effect, and then we can see
23 exactly what is written in this document. From this I cannot know what
24 is written in this decree by which he is assigned as a stand-in, because
25 I don't have enough information to give you any interpretation of his
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, in your work experience, have you
3 knowledge of this format of document? I'm not talking about this
4 particular person but this kind of document assigning various staff? Are
5 you familiar with this kind of format of a document?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This formulation, "assigned as
7 stand-in," determines what kind of document should precede this one. We
8 saw that yesterday, and that was in a standard form.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. Maybe I misspoke or we are at
11 When I say "this format," I'm not talking about the contents, I'm
12 talking about this document. I don't know what the heading of this
13 document is. It doesn't seem to have a heading on this page. But a
14 document of this type with these columns and lines put together recording
15 the history of a particular personnel in -- in the army, do you have
16 knowledge of that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, I understand you to say that when
19 this document is compiled, there should be an order preceding it. Now,
20 we understand that. But from your knowledge, assuming that the order has
21 been given, this would be a record of the history of the particular
22 personnel for the period mentioned on the document here, would it be?
23 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't get a translation of that answer.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So if this document has been properly
2 drafted, it would be recording that this particular personnel here was in
3 the 30th Personnel Centre from the 13th of January, 1997, to the
4 30th of June, 1999. According to this document, not according to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 10th of January until
6 July 1997. Then the next one from --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... and then the next
8 one 16th of July, 1999, to 15th January, 2000.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was that the question you asked -- you had asked,
11 Mr. Saxon?
12 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you for your assistance.
15 If we can now move, please, to -- in the B/C/S e-court pages --
16 page 12, and if we can pull up what is the English translation with the
17 doc ID 0611-5216.
18 Q. I know yesterday in your discussions with Mr. Lukic you talked
19 about professional assessments, Mr. Malcic, and here we see the first
20 page of an assessment for Petar Skrbic from the period 26 March 1999 to
21 28 June 1999. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, from March to June 1999, there was an armed conflict going
24 on between NATO forces and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Isn't
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. SAXON: Can we please go to the next page in -- actually, two
3 pages forward in English and the next page in B/C/S. If we can zoom in
4 on the bottom of the page in the English version. That's not the page I
5 needed in B/C/S. Can we go forward one page. It should be page 13 in
6 the B/C/S version. I don't know where we are right now. Could we move
7 forward one page. There we are. And for Mr. Malcic's sake, can we zoom
8 in on the bottom of the page.
9 Q. And you see in the bottom of the page there's a section called
10 "Descriptive Assessment and Conclusion," and this is what was written
11 about Petar Skrbic:
12 "During the war, with his conduct, behaviour, and
13 steadfastness --"
14 MR. SAXON: Again, can we zoom in on the bottom of this page.
15 Q. "... especially during enemy attacks on features in the direct
16 vicinity of the troops' deployment, he had a positive influence on the
17 overall success of the forces he commanded."
18 And in the next paragraph it says: --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot see the text in B/C/S.
20 MR. SAXON: Can we increase the size of the bottom half of the
21 B/C/S page.
22 Q. And in the second paragraph it says:
23 "He selected officers properly and quickly from the
24 30th Personnel Centre in order to dispatch them to units and
25 installations focusing on carrying out combat tasks. The fact that among
1 those who were decorated, two people from that contingent were decorated
2 with the Order for Courage testifies to this."
3 Have you been able to follow with me, Mr. Malcic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. My question for you is: On what authority could officers serving
6 in the VRS be deployed to combat operations in the Army of Yugoslavia?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor is now
9 trying to evolve his own thesis which was not subject of my
10 examination-in-chief. We are talking now about the period of 1999. The
11 witness retired in 1997. And I really don't see how cross-examination
12 can be conducted by showing these documents who, by the way, were not
13 part of the Prosecution case at the beginning.
14 Prosecutor may ask, in cross-examination, questions relating to
15 credibility or about the topics that arose during examination-in-chief.
16 However, he wants to involve this witness into questions that are
17 basically not allowed to be asked during cross-examination because they
18 go beyond the scope of the main subject of the examination-in-chief.
19 MR. SAXON: First of all, Your Honour, Rule 90(H)(ii) does not
20 limit me to the scope of examination-in-chief, nor do the guidelines of
21 this trial.
22 Second of all, it's my understanding that this document is part
23 of the Prosecution's evidence -- am I --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is P1688 you called it as.
25 MR. SAXON: Yes. This particular document, this assessment that
1 we're looking at.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not the challenge.
3 MR. SAXON: Well, I believe it was challenged, Your Honour, by
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the challenge is that you're outside the
6 scope of the indictment period and the evidence in chief and in a period
7 when this witness had long retired. That's what I picked up from the
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, it is -- this -- there has been a great
10 deal of evidence discussed recently, particularly, I believe, with the
11 last witness, about events in 1999.
12 I see my colleague is on his feet again.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to respond to this, but I
14 would like to do that in the absence of the witness. I think that we are
15 nearing the break, but I would like to explain why this period was
16 discussed with one witness in the past, and I can give you an explanation
17 why we shouldn't be doing the same with this witness, but not in his
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then in that event, let's take a break and come
20 back at 4.00, and then at 4.00 we will delay the return of the witness to
21 the courtroom.
22 Court adjourned. We will come back at 4.00.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I see you're on your feet.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly. Mr. Saxon's question
3 is on page 27, 10. Since the witness previously said that he had left
4 the army -- or, rather, that he was retired in 1997 and in view of the
5 fact that the question pertains to the year 1999, the only response that
6 this witness can give would boil down to his guesswork, pure guesswork.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this witness has provided a great deal
9 of testimony about transfer and appointment orders. You can see that
10 yesterday during his direct examination, beginning at 11273. He's been
11 giving testimony about persons whom were transferred from one post to
12 another within the Army of Republika Srpska. That is on page 11286 from
13 yesterday. And he's also been giving -- he also gave similar testimony,
14 Your Honour, on page 11311 regarding consent to Dragomir Milosevic to go
15 to the Army of Yugoslavia.
16 Clearly, Your Honour, this witness has a great deal of competence
17 to talk about the competence, if you will, or the authority of members of
18 the VRS to be transferred from one post to another and/or to be
19 transferred to posts in the VJ.
20 The fact that he retired in 1997 does not detract from that
21 competence and his knowledge, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Except, Mr. Saxon, that the question you are
23 putting to the witness is different from what you're speaking to. You're
24 speaking to his competence to comment on transfers from the VRS to the
25 VJ. The question you're putting to him is to tell us on what authority a
1 person who used to be in the VRS can be involved in combat activity in
2 the VJ. That's not transfer. That's involvement in combat activity.
3 Now, he may perhaps be able to tell you why -- the authority on
4 which this person was transferred to the VJ. Once that person is in the
5 VJ, obviously that person will now receive an order from his commander in
6 the VJ to go to combat, and that part I do not think would be in the
7 knowledge of this witness.
8 MR. SAXON: Well, certainly the -- what I'm hearing from
9 Your Honour is that certainly this witness would have the authority to
10 talk about how VRS officers could be, to use the term, transferred to the
11 VJ in 1999.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
13 MR. SAXON: Right.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Based on the orders that you say he was discussing
16 MR. SAXON: Exactly.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. But once that person is in the VJ --
18 MR. SAXON: Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the authority on which that person would then be
20 deployed to combat operations in the Army of Yugoslavia would be
21 something different that. That would be -- that would emanate from an
22 order within the VJ army of which he was not a part according to him.
23 MR. SAXON: Well, that is -- with the greatest respect, that is
24 one interpretation, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's an interpretation. You can cut that
1 out. But do you -- do you agree with the view that the authority for
2 that person to go to combat within a VJ army, he would not know? It
3 would be based on an order coming from within the common structure of the
5 MR. SAXON: I think that what ...
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: He might tell you how this person was transferred
7 to the VJ, but how the VJ centre deployed him to combat, I don't think he
8 would be able to tell you.
9 MR. SAXON: Well, I think the only way we'll know that for sure
10 is -- obviously would be to ask the witness that. The -- my question,
11 quite frank --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is that that question that you want to
13 put to him is being objected to, and I'm trying to tell you why -- how I
14 see the objection.
15 MR. SAXON: Right.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know.
17 MR. SAXON: Right.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: There are two stages here. There's transfer from
19 one army to the other. There is the deployment from the 2nd Army to
20 combat, which is an internal matter within the 2nd Army.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, again, with the greatest respect, I am
22 not -- I'm not -- that is an interpretation that this is a two-stage
23 process and I'm not a hundred per cent sure that it is. That -- that
24 would involve an analysis of evidence, and that's what I'm trying to
25 explore with this witness. What was this process by which persons
1 assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, in other words the VRS, found
2 themselves engaged in what apparently were combat operations within the
3 FRY during the Kosovo crisis.
4 Now, you're telling me that that must be a two-stage process, and
5 my response is, with the greatest respect, I'm not convinced that that is
6 necessarily the case. And I'd like to be able to ask the witness that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know how to -- Mr. Saxon, your own
8 submission says this witness was testifying yesterday on transfers of
9 personnel from one army to the next.
10 MR. SAXON: That's correct.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What -- he never testified on what they did when
12 they were in that other army or what they were told to do, but this
13 question obviously -- I mean, you're talking about being deployed to
14 combat operations in the Army of Yugoslavia. It stands there in your
15 question. And I can't see how you say this can't be two stages. Surely,
16 surely this person who's in combat operations in the Army of Yugoslavia
17 is not going into that combat based on a transfer order from the VRS to
18 the VJ. He couldn't be. He couldn't be.
19 MR. SAXON: Well, with the -- again, with the greatest respect,
20 Your Honour, if there is a transfer order -- if we have a person assigned
21 to the 30th Personnel Centre, I would argue that it is at least within
22 the realm of possibility that an officer could receive a
23 30th Personnel Centre order, just as we've seen many transfer and
24 appointment orders in this case, saying "You are now assigned to X
25 position in the VJ." One order. One step.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
2 MR. SAXON: And I'd like to explore that with the witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's -- that's a transfer.
4 MR. SAXON: Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are now assigned to this position in the VJ.
6 MR. SAXON: Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Full stop.
8 MR. SAXON: Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But when the VJ deploys you to combat, having
10 given -- having been transferred to that position and now the VJ deploys
11 you to combat, that's based on an order within the VJ. It cannot be
12 based on the same order that transferred you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Let me tell you what I understand
15 from the argument that we've just had. For two days now this witness has
16 been telling us that he is in the VRS, that he is not part of the VJ,
17 that all other VRS officers were in the VRS and not in the VJ, and the
18 reason why they were attached to the 30th Personnel Centre was just for
19 financial reasons, for payroll and nothing more. So we'd like to know
20 how this person ended up in Kosovo. Was he transferred from the VRS to
21 the VJ and then within the VJ to Kosovo, or did the VRS sent him directly
22 to Kosovo? He had a VRS statute and how was it possible with this
23 statute to go to Kosovo? Is that the question? I think that is what it
24 is. And you would like the witness to tell us why a person who belonged
25 to the VRS ended up in Kosovo. Did he first have to be transferred into
1 the VJ, or was there no need for transfer orders? Maybe he was de facto
2 in the VJ and then deployed to Kosovo? So we would like to know exactly
3 how he ended up in Kosovo when, by status, he was a member of the VRS.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Judge Picard, that is what I'm trying to
5 explore. That is the nub of my question. And I must say --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're having two counsels standing up.
7 MR. SAXON: Well, may I finish?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
9 MR. SAXON: Certainly it is the Prosecution's position that
10 officers who were assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, although they
11 may have been serving in the VRS, they remained members of the VJ, and
12 that position is, to a large degree, driving my question.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If that is the OTP's submission, and
15 I believe it is, I think that he is using a wrong example with a wrong
16 witness. On the basis of my previous objection, which means that the
17 witness is going to be put in a position to speculate, and I think it is
18 for the Trial Chamber very important to know how this person found
19 himself in Kosovo, I think that would be better elicited from this
20 particular person who is coming here to testify. We shall truly not be
21 able to elicit from this witness anything that we would like to hear in
22 this courtroom. This is a man who retired in 1997, and now he is
23 expected to provide you with certain information about how come this
24 certain individual at one point found himself in Kosovo in 1999.
25 MR. SAXON: My only response to that, Your Honours, is why can't
1 we let the witness tell us if he can answer the question or not? We
2 don't know whether I'm asking the witness to speculate. As I said
3 before, the witness has been testifying about these matters.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: We now have presently pending approximately six
5 or seven different questions on the same issue, and I think that therein
6 lies the rub. If we follow the line of questioning that was proposed by
7 Mr. Saxon, it dealt with a specific issue. That was a conflict between
8 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and NATO in 1999. From then he asked
9 the question for which you and he had the particular discussion, which
10 dealt with what authority did this particular individual find himself
11 deployed to Kosovo under a VJ authority.
12 Well, all of the other questions that have been proposed thus far
13 may well be questions that Mr. Saxon wished to ask or may be something
14 that is of some interest. However, they don't fall within the purview of
15 this particular witness's knowledge from what we've been told. We've
16 been given that answer a number of times, and I think really what's
17 happened here is something much different, which is we are using -- or
18 Mr. Saxon is using the personnel file of Mr. Skrbic to prove something,
19 to prove a point, that is outside of -- clearly outside of this witness's
21 Mr. Skrbic will be here. The Prosecution was aware of that. And
22 then the specific question can be asked of Skrbic. "Under what authority
23 did you find yourself in this particular situation?" And you will get a
24 specific answer, whatever that answer may be. But to do it through this
25 witness is, I submit, inappropriate. It's misleading. It confuses the
1 record. And it is outside the purview of this witness's knowledge.
2 Based upon, if nothing else, that he was no longer a member -- he was no
3 longer a member of the establishment that could deal with any of these
4 issues. Is -- is a foundation going to now be laid with regard to those
5 laws that were promulgated between 1997 and 1999 by the Republika Srpska,
6 by FRY, with regards to any issues as they relate to military? Is that
7 part of the inquiry or not, since we're dealing with the issue of
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If -- sorry. If this witness does not know, can't
10 we let him say, "Yes, I don't know," if he doesn't know? I'm asking you
11 this question, because I'm sure you must see that the Bench sounds like
12 it's divided and it doesn't have a majority, so we're going to be in an
13 impasse here. So I'm trying to avoid a ruling by the Bench because it
14 will be ineffective. Can't the question be put to him, and of course if
15 he knows -- he says "I don't know." If he knows, he gives us his
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We agree that the question be put
18 that way, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May the witness please
20 come in.
21 I think the question should be, "Do you know?"
22 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: About the question, sir, that was at page 27,
25 line 10.
1 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. Before the break, Mr. Malcic, I had shown you this assessment of
3 Petar Skrbic, and it had talked about how he selected officers from the
4 30th Personnel Centre to dispatch them to units and installations
5 focusing on carrying out combat tasks in 1999.
6 The question is: Do you know, sir, on what authority could
7 officers serving in the VRS be deployed to combat operations in the
8 Army of Yugoslavia?
9 A. I don't know about that, but I assume that they could only go as
11 MR. SAXON: Could we go forward one more page in English, please.
12 We're looking for the signature page in English. All right. If we
13 could -- in the B/C/S if we could -- thank you very much. If we could
14 zoom in on at that signature. Thank you so much.
15 Q. In the English version, Mr. Malcic, we only see the last name
16 Nikolic. Can you take a look at that signature stamp, and can you see
17 the name Stamenko there? Does it say "Stamenko Nikolic"?
18 A. I cannot read it because of the stamp. It may be another name
19 that is similar.
20 Q. Can you read it now?
21 A. I cannot see the letters out there. This could be K-o, but I
22 cannot see the first letters. I am not able to decipher that. But the
23 last name is Nikolic. This is the first time I hear of that officer. I
24 have not heard of him. I don't know him.
25 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic, sir. Yesterday, at page
1 11.272 of the record, you described how as a professional officer you
2 always did your best to ensure that your documents were drafted properly
3 and to avoid making mistakes. This was in response to a question from
4 Judge Picard. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And no doubt you always tried to be meticulous and careful in
7 your work?
8 A. In my work.
9 Q. If an officer wrote something that was not true in a JNA or VRS
10 document, would there be -- could there be consequences stemming from
11 that for that officer?
12 A. For providing inaccurate information. If I were to provide
13 something like that from the data [Realtime transcript read in
14 error "date"] I had available, I would suffer the consequences. As for
15 the descriptive assessment, it is only in the hands of the officer who
16 was writing it up.
17 As far as I know, it went to the second superior officer to have
18 it reconfirmed, especially if the grade was excellent.
19 Q. I'm actually -- Mr. Malcic, I'm not talking specifically now
20 about assessments. I'm just speaking about official documents in general
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- just so that we make sure that this
23 mistake is corrected, at page 38, line 15, I think I heard "from the data
24 I had available."
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first page that was signed with
3 the basic information, that is the information that I provided for the
4 officers who were supposed to --
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. Mr. Malcic. Mr. Malcic, I'm sorry. I'm not talking to you about
7 any particular specific assessment or document. I'm just speaking in
8 general terms.
9 You had a responsibility, didn't you, to make sure that what you
10 put in documents, official documents, was true; right?
11 A. I did my best to have everything done accurately and correctly.
12 There can always be technical errors that can then be corrected.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like you to answer my question, just a simple
14 question. You had a responsibility, didn't you, to make sure that what
15 you put in official documents was true; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Yesterday, at page 11.281 of the transcript, lines 13
18 to 14, Mr. Lukic asked you:
19 "Did you ever serve in the Army of Yugoslavia?"
20 And you answered:
22 Do you recall that testimony?
23 A. Yes. I never served in the Army of Yugoslavia or did I carry out
24 any duties in the Army of Yugoslavia.
25 Q. While you served in the VRS, you did not receive a salary from
1 September 1994 through January 1995, the time of sanctions; is that
3 A. Yes. We did not receive salaries.
4 Q. But when you retired on the 31st of August, 1997, you were paid
5 those salaries for -- one moment, please.
6 When you retired on the 31st of August, 1997, you were paid those
7 salaries for those months, weren't you?
8 A. Those salaries were paid out to me subsequently, but I don't know
9 exactly when.
10 Q. And after you -- after you received those salaries, subsequent to
11 that you submitted a request to the 30th Personnel Centre for overdue
12 interest on those monthly salaries that you finally received; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in that request to the 30th Personnel Centre, you said that
15 during the period September 1994 to January 1995 you were serving with
16 the Yugoslav Army. True?
17 A. I did not write that we served in the Army of Yugoslavia. I
18 filled out that request at the 30th Personnel Centre where they told me
19 that I had to write that I served in Military Post 3001,
20 Army of Yugoslavia, if I wish to have that right exercised. It was only
21 for the sake of that salary.
22 Q. I want to make sure I understand your position. Are you telling
23 us that in your request for this interest you did not write:
24 "Taking into account that in the above-mentioned period I was
25 serving with the Yugoslav Army"?
1 Is it your position you did not write that?
2 A. I wrote that only in order to get that salary. It had to do with
3 the salary, and that is how we wrote those documents in order to receive
4 our salaries. That was the position. That was the regulation involved,
5 that we had to write it that way, because the document shows that this
6 only pertained to the salary, nothing else. It did not pertain to any
7 kind of exercise of duties or any other orders that I received in the
8 Army of Yugoslavia. This only had to do with the salary.
9 Q. Mr. Malcic, in 1999, you submitted a request to the
10 30th Personnel Centre for payment of unused annual leave for the years
11 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the 30th Personnel Centre granted your request but only with
14 respect to your unused annual leave for 1995, because the
15 30th Personnel Centre claimed that a statute of limitations had expired
16 for the prior years. Do you recall that?
17 A. I recall that.
18 Q. And after you received that decision from the
19 30th Personnel Centre, on the 1st of December, 1999, you filed a
20 complaint to the Supreme Military Court in Belgrade, asking the
21 Supreme Military Court to overturn the decision of the
22 30th Personnel Centre, didn't you?
23 A. Yes. Because the decision had not been made on the basis of
24 valid regulations.
25 Q. And in that complaint that you filed with the
1 Supreme Military Court in Belgrade, you wrote the following:
2 "The defendant," that is in this case the 30th Personnel Centre,
3 "is well aware that as a member of the Yugoslav Army, I was temporarily
4 transferred through Military Post 3001 Belgrade to the Main Staff of the
5 Army of Republika Srpska to carry out tasks in the zone of combat
6 operations from 4 April 1992 to 14 December 1995."
7 That's what you wrote in your formal complaint, didn't you?
8 A. I wrote that in order to exercise my right for financial
9 compensation for unused annual leave, and it says very nicely that at
10 that time I was serving in the Army of Republika Srpska. We wrote things
11 this way only in order to exercise our rights on the basis of our
12 salaries. The 30th Personnel Centre functioned only so that we could get
13 our salaries and enjoy all the rights accrued on the basis of that
15 Q. Sir, you wrote this, that you were a member of the Yugoslav Army,
16 because it was true, wasn't it? That during those years, 1992 through
17 1995, you never left the Yugoslav Army?
18 A. That was not true. For these past two days I have been saying
19 throughout before this Honourable Trial Chamber that from the moment when
20 the VRS was established I was a member of the VRS until I retired and
21 took a disability pension on the 31st of August, 1997. I am proud of the
22 fact that I was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska. My brothers
23 served in it too, my late brother-in-law, my nephew, my friends, the best
24 man at my wedding, my brothers-in-law; and in 1995, with the other
25 members of the Army of Republika Srpska, they defended my native town of
1 Banja Luka where I live together. That is the town where I was born.
2 Had it not been for the army of Republika Srpska, today I would not be
3 living in Banja Luka.
4 Q. Very well, sir. Also in 1999, you submitted a request to the
5 Veterans and Disability Insurance Section of the Department for Economy,
6 Finances, and Public Services at the New Belgrade Municipal
7 Administration in the Republic of Serbia, and you were requesting to be
8 granted a disabled war veteran's status; is that right?
9 A. Yes. I exercised my right to a disability pension through the
10 Municipal Assembly of New Belgrade, which is where I resided at the time.
11 I exercised that right on the basis of my residency. I lived there
12 temporarily until I finally exercised my right to reside in Banja Luka.
13 Today I received that -- I receive that disability pension in
14 Banja Luka. As soon as I moved to Banja Luka, I started exercising that
15 right in Banja Luka.
16 Q. Okay. And when you were exercising that right in the
17 municipality of New Belgrade, the Veterans and Disability
18 Insurance Section needed to confirm that either on the
19 27th of April, 1992, or on the 3rd of May, 1992, you accepted to be taken
20 over to serve in the Yugoslav Army. Isn't that right?
21 A. April 1992 that I asked for that? That's not true.
22 Q. And, in fact, a Belgrade military post, on the
23 23rd of June, 1999, confirmed that you were a member of the former
24 Yugoslav People's Army continuously from 30 September 1971, and that you
25 were taken over by the Yugoslav Army, whose member you were, up to the
1 31st of August, 1997. Is that right?
2 A. That's not right. That's not right, and I can explain. If you
4 Q. If you could explain very briefly, sir. What exactly is not
5 right by what I just said? What specifically is not right?
6 A. I did not understand this exactly, but I will tell you what is
7 right. I served in the JNA from the 30th of September, 1971, until the
8 30th of May, 1992, when I transferred to the Army of Republika Srpska. I
9 was in the Army of Republika Srpska from the 30th of May, 1992, until the
10 30th of August, 1997, when I retired with a disability pension. But from
11 January to August 1997, I was on sick leave for medical treatment. I was
12 registered at the 30th Personnel Centre only in order to exercise my
13 right to a salary and later on to a pension.
14 Q. And it's true, isn't it, then, in -- at least in two formal
15 requests or documents that you submitted, one to the Military Post 3001
16 in Belgrade and one to the Supreme Military Court in Belgrade, you stated
17 that you were serving with the Yugoslav Army? That's true, isn't it?
18 A. As you saw in that order on my appointment in the VRS, that is to
19 say, the 30th Personnel Centre, it says up there "The Army of Yugoslavia,
20 the 30th Personnel Centre." In the second part of that sentence it
21 says --
22 Q. You didn't answer my question. Please answer the question that I
24 It's true, isn't it, that --
25 A. I'm telling you what is correct, what is true, and what I
1 actually did. In what was written up on paper that we were registered at
2 the 30th Personnel Centre, that was only for the sake of receiving a
3 salary and later on a pension, that's all. That is what the regulations
4 were at the time, and that was the agreement that was in force at the
5 time, and those were the orders that came from the superior officer.
6 Q. The superior officers of the Army of Yugoslavia which you obeyed;
8 A. No, not of Yugoslavia. Those were the orders I received from my
9 superior officer. When I retired, then Gojko Mijic, who was in the
10 30th Personnel Centre in this technical service. I didn't know anybody
11 else, and I did not address anyone else for the purpose of receiving my
12 salary but Gojko Mijic. This is the only man I co-operated with up until
13 the very end, until I retired.
14 Q. Is it -- is it your position, sir, that when you filed a
15 complaint in the Supreme Military Court in Belgrade where you said, "As a
16 member of the Yugoslav Army, I was temporary transferred through
17 Military Post 3001 Belgrade to the Main Staff of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska to carry out tasks in the zone of combat operations from
19 4 April 1992 to 14 December 1995," is it your position today, sir, that
20 you wrote this because someone from the VRS told you what to write?
21 A. I wrote that only in order to exercise my right to receive money
22 for unused annual leave. That is the only reason why I wrote that,
23 nothing else.
24 Q. I want to go back to a topic that I left a few moments ago. A
25 short time ago, sir, I asked you whether you knew on what authority could
1 officers serving in the VRS be deployed to combat operations in the
2 Army of Yugoslavia, and you responded:
3 "I don't know about that, but I assume that they could only go
4 as volunteers."
5 I'd like to ask you, sir, are you able to refer us to any laws or
6 regulations in the VRS that permitted such volunteers, officers?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry. Could we get a time-frame for that, since
9 your question related to 1999?
10 MR. SAXON: My question did relate to 1999. That's correct. But
11 I'm not limiting this follow-up question to 1999. I'm asking the witness
12 if he can refer to us to any laws or regulations of the VRS that pertain
13 to members of the VRS serving as volunteers in other armies, that's all.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment, I cannot remember
15 any such bylaws, because every specific situation was governed by a
16 specific bylaw. I don't know what the situation was in 1999, because I
17 was retired at the time.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Mr. Malcic.
19 Your Honour, those are the only questions I have.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that we are supposed to take a
23 break in ten minutes' time. I have only a couple of questions, but I
24 would prefer that we first have a break --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have 25 minutes. It's a lot of time.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then I'll start with my questions
2 straight away, very briefly, as I promised.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
4 Q. Mr. Malcic, Mr. Saxon has asked you a few questions relating to
5 some requests that you submitted to responsible institutions in the FRY
6 after your retirement that were relating to your rights that derived from
7 your service. You had a request relating to your unused annual leave and
8 something related to your pensionable service. Were you able to exercise
9 any of those rights in Yugoslavia if you hadn't written what was written
10 there, that you were a member of the 30th Personnel Centre?
11 A. I wouldn't be able to exercise these rights if it was not written
12 that I was in the Military Post 3001 in Belgrade and the
13 30th Personnel Centre and that I was a member of the VRS.
14 Q. During the six months that you never received any salary, did you
15 ever think whether you would ever get this back pay, or was it only
16 important for you to remain member of the VRS regardless of any payments
17 and salaries?
18 A. I never thought about not receiving the salary from Yugoslavia.
19 We always had an alternative solution. It -- the similar situation
20 happened when I joined the VRS. We didn't receive salary for three or
21 four months, but I never -- it never crossed my mind to leave the
22 Army of Republika Srpska, and the same situation happened during the
23 sanctions when we also didn't receive any salaries.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On page 47, witness said, line 18,
25 the witness said, "I never thought about my salary."
1 Q. A while ago, Mr. Saxon showed you -- actually, I suppose quoted
2 from your personal file your request for the payment for unused annual
3 leave in the period 1992, 1995.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have document 1D11-0614 on
5 our screens. That's one portion of the personnel file of Mr. Malcic. We
6 don't have an English translation. I'm going to read a portion and then
7 ask the witness to comment on it.
8 Q. This document that we see on the screen has the following
10 "General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, sector for
11 organisation, mobilisation, and personnel issues, confidential number
12 03/2-17-178, 16th of October, 1998."
13 I'm going to read only one portion which says that:
14 "Pursuant to the request of Malcic Stojan, Colonel, I hereby
15 issue this certificate whereby this sector confirms that Stojan Malcic,
16 father's name Petar, born on the 1st of February, 1946 -- 1948,
17 discharged the duties of the chief of personnel administration in the
18 sector for organisation, mobilisation, and personnel issues in the
19 Main Staff of the Army Republika Srpska until retirement.
20 "Due to being engaged in the carrying out of tasks in the combat
21 area, the above-named was unable to use his annual leaves for the years
22 of 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995."
23 This was signed by the chief of the personnel administration,
24 Lieutenant-Colonel Dane Maric.
25 Mr. Malcic, from this document can you tell us to which army you
1 belonged before the retirement?
2 A. Army of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. Who issued this document?
4 A. The chief of the personnel administration, Colonel Maric.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I turn to this document to be
6 admitted into evidence as MFI
7 that I have no further questions for Mr. Malcic.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be marked for identification and be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D00315, marked for identification.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, I have a question for
14 you. I listened carefully to what you have said over these last few
15 days, in particular with relation to your status in the VRS, and I do,
16 after all this, have a question. You might be able to answer it.
17 In your view, why were you being paid by the Yugoslav Army? What
18 was the reason for it?
19 A. In May 1992 when I was exchanged and when I left the prison, I
20 heard that a decision had been taken by the highest political
21 leaderships -- leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for all
22 the JNA units to withdraw to the territory of the FRY. The active
23 servicemen and civilians serving in the JNA who remained part of the army
24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, because at the time nobody knew how this army was
25 going to be called, it was said that they would receive their salaries
1 and other fringe benefits as if they had continued to serve in the JNA;
2 and the rules applicable for that, for the payment of salary, would be
3 the ones valid at that period.
4 I think this was announced in the media. I think on the
5 5th of May, 1992. And that was before the Army of Republika Srpska was
7 Why this decision was taken, I don't know. I can only surmise
8 that the FRY was proclaimed the successor of the SFRY and that the
9 Yugoslav Army was to become the successor of the JNA. Therefore, I
10 suppose that that was the reason for their taking this decision.
11 Believe me, as a professional it would have been easier for me if
12 they had suspended all the payments to active-duty officers at the time,
13 because we already had our government. We had our budget. And we had
14 enough funds to pay all the servicemen and the new servicemen that were
15 joining the Army of Republika Srpska. As it was, we just had to do dual
17 We remained there because we wanted to be with our own people,
18 with our brothers, with our friends, with our relatives with whom I grew
19 up, and we all wanted to defend our birthplaces, and we didn't want to
20 put ourselves in a position to be expelled from that area by anyone.
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I did understand this. You wanted
22 to stay in Republika Srpska, and you wanted to serve in the
23 Army of Republika Srpska, but I'm only half convinced by your explanation
24 inasmuch as you say that a decision was taken at the highest level and
25 that the decision in question said that the servicemen staying in the
1 former territories of Yugoslavia would keep being paid by the
2 Yugoslav Army, but that is not quite true, accurate, is it? This is only
3 true for the, let's say, Serbian servicemen. I mean, the servicemen who
4 were Croats who decided to fight in the Croatian army, they were no
5 longer paid by the Yugoslav Army. Neither were the Croatian servicemen
6 who later on served in the Croatian army in Bosnia.
7 So which is the reason why Serbian servicemen like you kept being
8 paid whilst they were no longer in the Yugoslav Army?
9 A. I think that I answered your question, I think, on my first day
10 of testimony. All of us who remained serving in the JNA pending the
11 order for those units to withdraw to the FRY were being paid by the FRY
12 during that period.
13 As for the Croat officers who joined the Army of Republic of
14 Croatia or the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 as well as Muslim officers who joined Territorial Defence units as they
16 were called at the beginning and which was later re-named the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in early 1991 and 1992, they left their establishment
18 positions in the JNA of their own volition, and under the law they were
19 given five days for a document on termination of their service in the JNA
20 to be issued. However, there were both Muslim and Croat officers who
21 stayed until the end with the JNA, who later joined the
22 Army of Republika Srpska and who eventually, some of them, withdrew to
23 the territory of the FRY and continued to receive payments from the
24 federal budget of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Well, I hadn't understood that as
1 well, but this is still no explanation for the fact that the VRS
2 servicemen and officers kept being paid by the Yugoslav Army. Unless you
3 tell me that you were still in the Yugoslav Army, which is what you
4 appear to say, but I don't think you want to say. So this is not a very
5 compelling explanation. Maybe you have no other explanation.
6 A. The problem was with the Yugoslav People's Army.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, Your Honour. I think
8 that the witness gave a very precise answer on page 50, lines 5 to 8. He
9 said that he didn't know why this decision was taken. He can only
10 suppose that the FRY declared itself a successor of the SFRY, and I truly
11 believe, Honourable Judge Picard, that he did answer your question.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Well, then I fail to understand.
13 Well, I still don't understand why the Yugoslav Army kept paying officers
14 belonging to another army, an army of another country. The fact that
15 there were states that succeeded the former Yugoslavia, say the
16 Republic of Serbia, is not an explanation that I would deem the proper
18 But it may be that you don't know, Witness.
19 A. Let me tell you this -- well, I wanted to say later, after I
20 retired, all members of the Yugoslav People's Army, who before the
21 outbreak of war were there, applied to the personnel administration of
22 the VJ to receive certificates that would help them to get pensions in
23 their respective newly formed states. I know that because I personally
24 collected such documents and sent to my friends in Sarajevo. That means
25 that the personnel administration, they had DP 2 forms, and they kept it
1 on their archives. I don't know who proclaimed this administration to be
2 the successor, but we all appealed and addressed this administration from
3 the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia in order to regulate our
4 pension problems.
5 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions by the
7 Bench, Mr. Lukic?
8 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon?
10 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Malcic, that brings us to the end of your
12 testimony. Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You
13 are now excused. You may stand down, and travel well back home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no other
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Do we then postpone to tomorrow?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our plan was to work
21 with this witness tomorrow as well, and for that reason we did not call
22 any witnesses to appear tomorrow. That is to say that in view of the
23 notification that we have received, we will not have any witnesses before
24 12th of April. I think that's a Monday.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Notification you received from ...
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm talking about the next week.
2 We received information that there will be no sitting of this
3 Trial Chamber. As for tomorrow, we knew that a normal day was scheduled.
4 At the beginning when we had Pre-Trial Conference, I think that
5 we said that we shall -- that there will be no sitting on the 26th and
6 29th -- excuse me. I think 26th, 29th, and 30th. The remaining days are
7 31st and the 1st. That is before Easter holidays. And according to
8 that, we created our schedule according to which we're going to bring our
9 first witness on the 12th of April, that is, after Easter holidays.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What about the 31st and the 1st of April?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we received
12 information -- well, Your Honour, truly, I think we received information
13 there will be no sitting prior to the 12th of April. If it is my
14 mistake, I assume full responsibility. But I think that that is what was
15 conveyed to us, that these two days, 31st and 1st, there will be no
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, Mr. Lukic, I won't take the matter much
18 further. Then the matter stands adjourned to the 12th of April. And I
19 don't -- do I have -- I don't seem to have the April calendar. I'm not
20 quite sure whether we're sitting in the morning or -- I think it is in
21 the morning.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the morning.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: At 9.00 in the morning. As I don't have the
24 calendar, I also don't know in which courtroom. Does anybody know?
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: In courtroom II, 9.00 in the morning.
2 Court adjourned.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.09 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day
5 of April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.