1 Thursday, 8 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
8 And, Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, sir.
12 Could we have the appearances for the day, starting with the
14 MR. THOMAS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
15 everybody in and around the courtroom. Carmela Javier and Barney Thomas
16 for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning to all. Mr. Zorko, Mr. Mair,
20 Nadia Galinier, and Gregor Guy-Smith appearing on behalf of Mr. Perisic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 Good morning you to, Mr. Kodzopeljic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I remind you,
25 and I know you know it, but we've got to remind you that you are still
1 bound by that declaration you made at the beginning of the trial to tell
2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you so
4 Mr. Thomas.
5 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 WITNESS: JUGOSLAV KODZOPELJIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Thomas: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kodzopeljic. I have just a few more questions
10 for you and then we'll be done.
11 Excuse me for a moment while I just adjust something. Thank you.
12 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, could we please have Exhibit D391 on
13 the screen.
14 I don't know if everyone has this problem, sir, but I'm not
15 getting anything on e-court.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Neither am I.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Welcome to the club. I see that our maps are
18 turned upside down and the Court Officer's map is lying straight.
19 [Trial Chamber confer]
20 MR. THOMAS: I don't have anything on my screen, sir. I can look
21 at it on a different screen, but I just want to make sure that the
22 witness has one on his screen. Because, as I say, I don't have e-court
23 on my screen at the moment.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's hope that the gentleman will be able to
1 Mr. Kodzopeljic, do you see a map on your screen?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 MR. THOMAS: All right.
5 Q. Mr. Kodzopeljic, and please, sir, excuse me if I have to look
6 over at this screen --ah, here we go. All right.
7 You will remember that this was a map of the technical repair
8 institutes located throughout the territory of the former SFRY, and you
9 discussed this map on the first day, I think, of your testimony. We see
10 on that map Cacak and Kragujevac, and are they numbers 1 and 2 on the
11 map? I don't have a very clear version of the map, so I need your
12 assistance there. Are numbers 1 and number 2 technical repair institutes
13 Cacak and Kragujevac?
14 A. Yes, precisely so.
15 Q. And yesterday, sir, you said that those two technical repair
16 institutes were under you, and by that do you mean they were under the
17 technical administration of the logistic sector of the General Staff of
18 the VJ?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. The technical repair institute numbered 11, Hadzici, you will
21 recall being asked by His Honour -- all right, let me rephrase that.
22 Your position was that Hadzici, number 11, was wrongly attributed
23 to being under the control of the Republika Srpska, do you recall giving
24 that --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that was his statement, that it
2 was wrongly attributed, although I might be incorrect. Do you have a
3 transcript cite for that?
4 MR. THOMAS: I do. I accept though, that that's not a direct
5 quote. So let's get the relevant reference.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do believe the gentleman said it was in
8 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
9 Q. Let me rephrase, sir. Mr. Kodzopeljic, do you recall telling
10 His Honour that the letters RS next to number 11, meaning
11 Republika Srpska, should not be there, that they were a mistake, that
12 this was not in the Republika Srpska? Do you recall giving that
14 A. Well, I still adhere by those words. This is not in
15 Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. If you wish, I can add a few things to what I've just said.
18 Q. No, that's fine, sir. Thank you.
19 MR. THOMAS: Could we have document P1534 on the screen, please.
20 And perhaps if we just enlarge the left-hand side of the B/C/S version,
21 please. And page 1 of the English. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, you will see, sir, that this is a work report prepared by
23 the Ministry of Defence of the Republika Srpska covering the work of the
24 same ministry for the period August 1994 to November 1995. Do you see
1 A. I do.
2 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I'd like to go, please, to page 6 in the
3 English and page 4 in the B/C/S.
4 Now, in the English we see a heading:
5 "Maintenance and Repair of MTS/Materiel and Technical Equipment."
6 I'm just trying to find it in the B/C/S. And I can't because
7 it's too small. I wonder if ... let's -- well, I can't read it, so I
8 can't tell you which part. The heading that says "Maintenance and Repair
9 of MTS;" there's a title. Pause there. Can we scroll down, please, in
10 the English.
11 Q. Mr. Kodzopeljic, in the English version, we have a paragraph with
12 the number 1 next to it.
13 MR. THOMAS: And that's near the bottom of the page,
14 Your Honours.
15 Q. Which says:
16 "The most important enterprises in RS engaged in TMS," in other
17 words, materiel and technical equipment, "maintenance and repair for the
18 VRS are:"
19 And there's a list at the top of which is Hadzici Technical
20 Repair Institute. Do you find the -- do you see the corresponding
21 reference in the B/C/S version, sir?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Do you have any comment on that, sir?
24 A. I volunteered information a while ago, but you wouldn't let me.
25 People from Hadzici were Serbs, and they were relocated. And they
1 continued repairing and maintaining the Republika Srpska MTS in several
2 other places.
3 Q. Well, I'm not concerned, sir, about those who left Hadzici and
4 went elsewhere. Clearly the Hadzici Technical Repair Institute was
5 engaged in maintenance for the VRS in the Republika Srpska, wasn't it?
6 A. Well, they kept the same name, Hadzici. They still bore the
7 title, although they had moved out of Hadzici. They had been relocated.
8 And they continued maintaining equipment for the Republika Srpska army.
9 And they still do it to this very day, they continue doing it.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas.
11 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe between yourself and the witness you need to
13 reconcile the two issues: what the position of the witness is and what is
14 written on this document. What is written on this document is that the
15 most important enterprises in -- oh, they say, in the Republika Srpska
16 engaged in that -- I beg your pardon. I withdraw.
17 MR. THOMAS: Can we turn over the page in the English and stay on
18 the same page in the B/C/S, Your Honours. I'm sorry, could we go to
19 page 8 in the English and the bottom of page 6 in the B/C/S. The
20 previous page in the B/C/S, please.
21 Q. If we look at -- I'm looking, sir, at a paragraph that begins
22 with the number 6. Point number 6. And it has a list of facilities. Do
23 you have that same -- I see.
24 MR. THOMAS: Could we begin, please, on the previous page in the
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unnecessary microphones kindly be
2 switched off. Thank you.
3 MR. THOMAS:
4 Q. Okay. Sir, if you look at the paragraph numbered 6 at the
5 bottom, there's a reference to certain institutions also doing work for
6 the FRY army. Were there -- first of all, before I ask you to comment on
7 what is written there, were there military repair institutes in the
8 Republika Srpska or in other Serb-held territory in the republics that
9 were doing repair work for the VJ?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I think as -- never mind. I withdraw
12 my comment.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they co-operated.
14 MR. THOMAS: And if we go over the page in the B/C/S, please,
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 Q. You will see among those facilities in the RS doing work for the
17 FRY as well as for the VRS is Hadzici.
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And finally, sir, just while we are -- in fact, that concludes
20 that topic.
21 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Kodzopeljic, thank you. Those are all the
22 questions that I have for you.
23 Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
25 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Please don't take that off the screen. If we
2 could go back to page 6 in the English.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
4 Q. Once again, looking at paragraph 1 which is page 4 in the B/C/S,
5 do you have that in front of you, sir?
6 A. At the beginning I can read RZ Kosmos; is that what you're
7 referring to?
8 Q. No, going down to the very bottom, to the very bottom of -- wait
9 a minute, because there's -- after -- if you go toward the middle of the
10 page there's a number 7, and then after that there's a number 1 which I
11 believe says something to the effect of:
12 "The most important enterprises in RS engaged in TMS maintenance
13 and repair for the VRS are:"
14 And there are listed a number of places. Do you see that?
15 A. I do, yes.
16 Q. Now, with regard to the discussion of Hadzici, could you tell us
17 geographically, if you know, with regard to the confrontation line
18 between the Republika Srpska army and the BiH, where was Hadzici, if you
20 A. Hadzici is near Sarajevo. As far as I know, physically, it was
21 in the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could now go to page 7 in the English and
24 remain on page 4 in the B/C/S.
25 Q. Which is -- looking at the page that you were looking at before,
1 looking at the next number in sequence which is number 2, it indicates,
2 at least in English:
3 "The most important FRY enterprises engaged are:"
4 And then it gives a number of FRY enterprises.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could you scroll to the bottom of the page,
6 please, Mr. Usher, in the B/C/S. And you're going to need to go to the
7 next page now. I thought it was on page 7, so I'm going to be on page 8
8 of the B/C/S. I'm sorry, page 5 of the B/C/S. Thank you.
9 And you are going to have to make it bigger so the gentleman can
10 see it. And it's going to be the other one. The other -- perfect. And
11 if you could just enlarge it at the top. That's correct. A little --
12 can that be made a little bit bigger. Just the very top part would be
13 fine. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. With regard to the -- there's a list of names, and then
15 after that it says:
16 "The engagement of these industries from the FRY is linked to our
17 ability to pay for their services, primarily that of special-purpose
18 production enterprises which we are resolving in various ways."
19 And that refers, as I understand it and could you comment on it,
20 does that refer on the ability to pay the companies of the
21 special-purpose industry that are immediately above that?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
23 MR. THOMAS: Your Honours, I don't know how that arises from my
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: He asked questions as to whether or not there
1 were a number of different industries that were engaged with the FRY,
2 some of which were military admittedly. And he referred the gentleman to
3 this document and these pages.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, I think the witness said the word
5 military doesn't exist in the special purpose --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate that. But that was the word that
7 Mr. Thomas used. When I rose, the reason that I rose was because I was
8 looking at the list of facilities that he was alluding to, some of which
9 were repair and maintenance facilities and some of which were private SPI
10 facilities, as I understand them. I'm not going any further with this
11 question other than --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is allowed. Sorry, if I may rule on
13 the objection. Yeah. Sorry.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. My question is, Could you comment on it? Does that -- does this
16 document refer to the ability of the Republika Srpska to pay companies of
17 the special-purpose industry that are in FRY immediately above in the
18 document that you are referring to, that you've been referred to? Is
19 that what it's referring to, the ability to pay?
20 Look at the document, sir.
21 A. Well, payments were effected by those who commissioned works.
22 Q. I appreciate that. I'm just asking you to take a look at the
23 document itself.
24 A. Could you please direct me to the paragraph in the document?
25 Q. Paragraph in the document --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kodzopeljic, the paragraph below the list of
2 places called -- under paragraph 2.
3 The most important FRY enterprises engaged are: Cacak,
4 Moma Stanojlovic, da da da, and then the paragraph after Major Belgrade,
5 21 Major Belgrade. Can you see that? It starts: "The engagement of
6 these industries ...
7 A. I don't see that on my screen. I don't have it on my screen.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at the top of your screen, there's a
9 list of -- I'm sorry I can't direct him.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
11 Q. If -- Mr. Kodzopeljic, if you look at the -- at the document on
12 the left, in B/C/S, look at it.
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. There's a list -- there's a list of what seems to be companies,
15 one right after the other, do you see that?
16 A. Under technical repair or overhaul institutes; right?
17 Q. Can you see it? That's all I'm asking. Can you see it? Mr. --
18 A. Does this start with --
19 Q. Underneath that, there is a --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like we are not on the same page here.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That may be the origin of this
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could you go back a page, please. You are
24 absolutely right, Your Honour, we are not on the same page. Could you go
25 back a page in the B/C/S and enlarge the right-hand side. The very top
1 of the page. The very top of the page after two names, the last name
2 being 21 Maj ... and then I think it's Belgrade. And there's a paragraph
3 that states:
4 "The engagement of these industries from the FRY is linked to our
5 ability to pay for their services, primarily that of special-purpose
6 production enterprises, which we are now resolving in various ways."
7 Q. And my question is: Can you comment on that with regard to
8 whether or not this is referring to the Republika Srpska paying those
9 industries, special-purpose industries, for their services? That's
10 what's being discussed there?
11 A. Correct. This is how it's written in here, and this is how
12 things were done, just as you described.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: That document can now be taken off the screen.
15 Q. And finally, yesterday you were discussing a document with
16 Mr. Thomas which is P1269.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have that up on the screen, please.
18 Q. And what I'd like you to do is I'd like you to take a look at the
19 very first paragraph in the document which I believe says:
20 "On the basis of the order ..." and then it gives a number.
21 Could you tell us what that number is?
22 A. Strictly confidential, standing for the number is 61 -- 6748-2
23 dated 12 November, 1993.
24 Q. And that is an order that was issued by who, sir?
25 A. The order was issued by the Chief of the General Staff of the
1 Army of Yugoslavia.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: This document can be taken off the screen.
4 Q. In order for -- I don't want to use the word "order" here.
5 In a situation such as this when an order has been given, as I
6 understand it, the order that is given to issue the materiel that you
7 discussed yesterday with Mr. Thomas concerning P1269 was based on a
8 decision that was, according to this document, made by the Chief of
9 Staff. And that order was the order that you just mentioned, 6 --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
11 MR. THOMAS: Sorry, Your Honour, I take the same point that my
12 learned friend took yesterday, it was based on an order made by the Chief
13 of the General Staff, we've just been quoted that passage in the
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: The first time I used order --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry, I --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I had too many orders in my question. I didn't
18 want to say, In order for something to happen, there has to be an order.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, but I don't understand -- Mr. Thomas, I was
20 trying to read what he had said so that I probably -- I thought I had
21 missed something. You say you are taking the same position that -- or
22 the same point that your learned friend took yesterday. Now, I don't --
23 you guys take so many points that I don't know what point you're talking
24 about. So if you can articulate the point it is that -- the point that
25 it -- that you are taking, I would appreciate it very much.
1 MR. THOMAS: I am sorry, Your Honours. I should be more clear.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 MR. THOMAS: Mr. -- my learned --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think I'm in agreement with you. I think I now
5 understand what you're saying.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber doesn't.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. I'm going to -- I'm going to --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let -- can he -- let him tell us.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
10 MR. THOMAS: My learned friend, in dealing with document P1269
11 which is taken off the screen, that document itself is an order, and it
12 is based on an order of the Chief of the General Staff. And my learned
13 friend in putting his next proposition to the witness referred to an
14 order based on a decision of the Chief of the General Staff. And I just
15 want my learned friend to be clear that it is an order based on an order
16 of the Chief of the General Staff.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I concur. I understood what his point was,
19 and I concur.
20 Q. That's how -- so that is how we -- that is how we are to read
21 P1269, and perhaps we should put it back on the screen just to be clear,
22 that the document is an order which is based on an order?
23 A. No. An order and decision. In the second line, we have the word
24 "decision." These two documents are -- do not come from the same level.
25 An order is one type of document and a decision another.
1 Q. Okay.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is the decision here?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, that's what I'm -- what I'm trying to get
4 to is the under -- is the underlying basis for P1269, which I understand
5 to be a document which may be an order or decision. I'm not -- that's
6 something we need to clear up. But whatever that order or decision was,
7 it was strictly confidential number 6748-2, and 6748-1, that's what I'm
8 trying to get to.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But there's no doubt about that. The document
10 speaks for itself.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Number 6748-2 was an order based on an order,
13 strictly confidential. So we are being told here that it's an order.
14 Okay. Now, you and the witness are talking of a decision, and I'm saying
15 where is the decision?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, that's what -- that was a term that he --
17 that was a term that he just used, because I think there are different
18 terms which are used depending on where that entry comes within the
19 hierarchy. And sometimes it's called an order and sometimes it's called
20 a decision. And here we have --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that's what I'm asking him: Where is the
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
24 Q. Looking at the document itself, starting at the beginning, it
25 says: "On the basis of ..." what is the next word?
1 A. Order.
2 Q. And what is a "naredjenja"? That is, as I understand it, an
4 A. An order by the chief of the of the General Staff of the VJ. And
5 next we have "... and decision strictly confidential number 6748-2." The
6 second document referred to is a decision.
7 Q. Very well, and then it continues. And you've just -- you
8 described to us what 6748-2 is. And then it says "... and the ..." And
9 is it there that you're referring to something? What is that word?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
11 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't think
12 intentionally, but I think my learned friend is misquoting the testimony
13 of Mr. Kodzopeljic. What Mr. Kodzopeljic said -- what Mr. Kodzopeljic
14 said at line 18, sir, is that the first reference, in other words,
15 6748-2, is an order, a "naredjenja," and what follows, the ruling - and
16 the word ruling is used in English - on the second line of the document
17 is the decision. It wasn't the -- it wasn't 6748-2 that this witness
18 said was a decision.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I wasn't saying that.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't think that's what Mr. Guy-Smith was
21 saying. I think Mr. Guy-Smith was going to say exactly what you have
22 just said.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's precisely what I was trying to say.
24 Q. And with regard to 6748-1, what is that?
25 A. A decision. For the second time.
1 Q. Okay. So we have an order, and we have a decision.
2 A. Precisely. You're right.
3 Q. And the order, 6748-2, and the decision, 6748-1, are the guiding
4 documents for which the order, which is P1269, was issued?
5 A. Precisely so.
6 Q. Okay. Good. Sorry that took so long. Now, could you tell us
7 what the cabinet of the Chief of the General Staff is?
8 A. Any high-ranking officer has a group of people at his disposal
9 who are there to plan and implement the tasks at that level.
10 Q. Okay. Based on the examination yesterday by Mr. Thomas, I went
11 through some searching and came across 65 ter 7904, which is on the
12 Prosecution list.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have that document up on the
14 screen. Could you go to page -- yes, that's perfect in the English. We
15 need to go to the next page in the ...
16 Q. Looking at the first bullet point, it reads:
17 "Documents number 6748-1 dated 12 November 1993, 6748-2
18 dated 17 November 1993, and 19 November 1993, 7062-1," which is not a
19 document we've discussed here, "dated 9 December 1993, Defence ministry
20 has provide a reply that it is not a documentation created by the cabinet
21 of the Chief of General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, and that such
22 documentation has not been recorded in its log-book either as outgoing or
24 Now, are you in a position to comment at all with regard to that
25 statement? Is that something that you would be privy to?
1 A. There seems to be a problem here with the date. 6748 dated the
2 12th of November was -- well, as for the other document of the
3 17th of November, as far as I recall that document, the date was the
4 same. Perhaps we should go back and check. Only after that I'd be able
5 to offer a response, otherwise I'm unable to identify these documents.
6 Q. My question is this -- is it says that this is not a
7 documentation created by the cabinet of the Chief of General Staff of the
8 Army of Yugoslavia and that such "documentation has not been recorded in
9 its log-book either as outgoing or incoming."
10 Do you know anything about the log-book and how the log-book
11 worked with regard to either decisions or orders that were made by the
12 Chief of the General Staff in terms of there being a log-book? Is that
13 something that you have awareness of?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
15 MR. THOMAS: Objection, Your Honour. The log-book refers to the
16 cabinet of the Chief of the General Staff.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH:
18 Q. Do you have any information concerning the log-book of the
19 cabinet of the Chief of the General Staff? Do you know how that was
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Are you in a position --
23 A. It was within their purview, and I'm not privy to it. I am
24 positive, though, that any documents coming in or leaving that office had
25 to be registered.
1 Q. And any -- when you say any "documents coming in or leaving that
2 office had to be registered," I take it, I'm asking if you know, any
3 decision that is made by the Chief of the General Staff, a written
4 decision or written order, is something that would have to be registered,
5 if you know that?
6 MR. THOMAS: Objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Thomas.
8 MR. THOMAS: It's a leading question.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. Do you know what the requirements were for any written decision
12 and/or order that was authored by, promulgated, or instituted by the
13 Chief of the General Staff with regard to it being recorded?
14 A. There isn't a single order leaving the office of the Chief of the
15 General Staff without being recorded first.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would move for the admission of P 65 ter number
20 MR. THOMAS: And I would object, Your Honours, under the
21 guide-lines my learned friend is required to establish a relationship
22 between the witness and the document, and he's been unable to do so.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the witness has indicated in a general
25 sense what his familiarity is with regard to the issuance of orders. So,
1 to that extent, he has shown some familiarity in relationship to the
2 document. Above and beyond that, I would think that the Prosecution in
3 its quest for the truth in making a determination that's certainly all
4 relevant information is presented to the Chamber, specifically such
5 information which would be directly relevant to and impacting upon the
6 major thrust of the cross-examination that was engaged in P1269 is
7 something that they would willingly and eagerly wish to have part of the
8 record and would not be retreating from.
9 And if one finds objection or under the strict guide-lines, I
10 certainly believe that this is amenable to the considerations of Rule 89.
11 And I'm referring there, to -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, just to go to the
12 guide-lines itself, referring to Rule 89(C), and specifically guide-line
13 number 30 in which the Trial Chamber will begin any analysis on the
14 admissibility of evidence by recalling Rule 89(C) of the Rules that
15 provides that:
16 "A Chamber may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have
17 probative value."
18 The Rule goes on, but that -- the balance of the Rule is not
19 germane to our inquiry right now. Certainly this particular document has
20 probative value to the question that has been presented with regard to
21 P1269 in the inferences that I can assure you the Prosecution will argue
22 at a later point in time when they have the ability to do so. And I
23 suggest that the foreclosure of this evidence for your consideration
24 would not be either prudent or allow you to have a full and complete
25 record with regard to the evidence on this particular issue.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D394, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You are done?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am, Your Honour.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I have a few questions for you,
9 Mr. Kodzopeljic, and before I do, I would like to understand exactly what
10 your role was within the army. There are a few things that have remained
11 vague for me. You were working in the logistics services, but there were
12 quite a few things you didn't seem to know that were going on. So what
13 exactly were your functions in your field?
14 A. Between 1993 and 1999, I was chief of the technical
15 administration in the logistics sector.
16 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I got that, but what does that
17 mean exactly?
18 A. Yes, it's a very broad playing field for a chief of the technical
19 administration. As I told you, we firstly and foremostly dealt with the
20 system of supply and maintenance of technical equipment and materiel of
21 the land forces. We also worked on the supply system of fuel,
22 lubricants, et cetera. We also organised the supply of electricity. We
23 organised training of technical personnel, as well as the establishment
24 of the institutions of the technical service and the nomenclature or
25 processing of documents reaching us, when we were the ones responsible to
1 implement at the tactical level. Because we, as the tactical agents in
2 that position, were responsible for the supply system of the whole armed
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You are referring to the factories
5 of Kragujevac and Cacak?
6 A. Yes, the technical overhaul facilities were in Kragujevac and
7 Cacak. These are not factories.
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I don't exactly know the
9 difference between a factory and a technical institute but never mind.
10 What I'm not sure I understand is that when you tell us that you were
11 also in charge not simply of maintenance and repairs, but also the
12 supplying of arms, ammunition, et cetera, then beyond the factories of
13 Kragujevac and Cacak there must have been other institutes or factories.
14 Were there more institutes or factories under your authority?
15 A. No. The only two overhaul facilities or institutes were the ones
16 in Kragujevac and Cacak.
17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right. So these arms
18 factories were placed under whose authority?
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no problem at all with your question,
20 Your Honour, I'm not rising to object. You indicated that you didn't
21 know exactly what the difference is between a factory or a technical
22 institute, and I think that there may actually be some different there
23 which makes the use of the term "factory" misleading with regard to the
24 question that you are asking, and I rise for that reason because a
25 factory usually involves the notion of production. I mean that's the way
1 I normally think of a factory, and I don't know whether or not when we
2 are having this discussion, we are having that same discussion. And the
3 reason that could become of importance, obviously, is because of the
4 nature of ultimately the whole issue as it relates to logistics and where
5 it came from and how it was distributed.
6 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm not sure we have this problem
7 in French because you can use the word "usine," which means factory, and
8 not merely talk about production. So would you, Witness, please tell us
9 the exact difference between a factory and a technical institute?
10 A. There's an enormous difference. A technical overhaul facility or
11 institute, as I said yesterday, were the military institutions which
12 created income and then distributed the assets. It means that people
13 employed there are employed by the army. However, the production need
14 not necessarily go to the army alone. Any surplus is then directed
15 elsewhere; whereas an ordinary factory needs to conclude its own
16 contracts, find its own clients, produce alone, employ its workers, or
17 fire its workers.
18 In overhaul institutions, it is all controlled by the technical
19 administration. Practically speaking, that would be the highest army
20 level in the system of maintenance. There are, of course, workshops at
21 lower levels which are tasked with more simple maintenance tasks, and
22 this is usually done on a routine daily basis in the units. So in an
23 armed force, maintenance is done at different levels. The technical
24 overhaul facilities are the highest level facilities in that respect.
25 They maintain and do the overhaul of all assets in the military. In an
1 institute of that kind, an old piece comes in and a new one comes out;
2 whereas in a factory, you get in parts, and what comes out is a complete
4 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I can only repeat that we don't
5 have that distinction in French, and it doesn't really matter. The
6 factories, then, that produce weapons, under whose control were they
7 placed? Under whose authority were placed the factories that make
8 weapons which are public companies, I believe, they were state companies,
9 right, at the time?
10 A. Yes, public state companies were controlled by the Ministry of
11 Defence, and actually it was the federal Secretariat for the National
12 Defence before that.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Right. During your statement,
14 during your testimony, I think yesterday, we were shown a document in
15 which the General Staff of the Bosnian Serbian army, that is, the
16 Republika Srpska, ordered the Pretis factory to provide them with some
17 materiel. Now, how does that come about?
18 A. What I stated did not refer to the way work was organised in
19 Republika Srpska and their armed force and Ministry of Defence. What I
20 discussed pertained to the SFRY and later FRY. I can't tell you what
21 kind of organisation they had and what the relationship was between their
22 minister of defence, their General Staff, and their companies. I cannot
23 be precise in that regard. I can suppose they had a similar system in
24 place. There would be no reason to change it.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] That's why I'm wondering about it.
1 I also assumed that they were working in the same way, so I thought it
2 was a little odd that the General Staff of the army was in a position to
3 order weapons directly from a weapons factory, but essentially you know
4 no more about it than I do.
5 A. If you wish to go into more detail, I'd have to see the document
6 first to be able to provide a precise answer.
7 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I'm not sure there's any point. I
8 don't even remember the number of the document, sir. But there is
9 something else I would like to take up with you in the second but one
10 last document we looked at today. I'm referring to the report of the
11 Ministry of Defence of the Republika Srpska concerning the period between
12 August 1994 and November 1995. It was stated, if I remember right, that
13 the Ministry of Defence and the Republika Srpska in general were supposed
14 to pay the factories in Serbia if they wanted to carry on using their
15 services. Among the list of these factories or technical institutes, I
16 read the names of the factories of Cacak and Kragujevac, which were under
17 your authority.
18 Now, can you tell us whether these institutes received payment
19 from the Republika Srpska for services rendered?
20 A. I'm not sure that there's a reference to Kragujevac. I don't
21 remember Kragujevac; there is Cacak, however. It is certain that the
22 Cacak overhaul institute signed contracts, and based on the contracts,
23 payments had to be effected. If payments were not effected, then the
24 commercial court would hear the case and see why the payments had not
25 been effected. I never received information that a payment had not been
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Actually, factually, do you know
3 if the government of the Republika Srpska was paying these technical
4 institutes, the repairs institutes in Kragujevac and Cacak, which were
5 placed under your authority; you should know, then, if you were getting
6 any money, if you were receiving any payments. If you were delivering
7 services and being paid for them, what was going on? What you are
8 telling us now is the theory. If there's a contract there has to be ...
9 yes, but we know that sometimes theory right from the start it's been
10 obvious that there was differences between theory and practice, a lot of
11 forms get filled with missing signatures and references that are
12 incorrect, et cetera. So obviously there is a distinction between what
13 is practice and what is theory. Now, in practice were you paid? Were
14 those two factories paid by the Republika Srpska?
15 A. Under the names of those institutes and plants, you could see
16 that payments were effected in one of the agreed ways. The payment could
17 be the so-called barter, the exchange of certain parts and elements. And
18 I guarantee you that everything was paid. If payment was envisaged,
19 payment was effected. I don't know if things were paid in 1994. I can't
20 tell you. I do have that financial report among my materials, but I
21 would have to refer to that financial report in order to tell you how
22 much was paid to either side, but I'm sure it was paid. It is impossible
23 for a payment not to be received because that would merit proceedings to
24 be instituted to recover the debt.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] You think it must have been paid
1 but you don't actually know?
2 A. Absolutely. It had to be paid.
3 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you, I have no
4 more questions.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, any questions arising from the
6 Judge's questions?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Thomas?
9 MR. THOMAS: No, sir, thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 Thank you very much, Mr. Kodzopeljic --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I say something
13 about my statement yesterday, about my testimony yesterday evening?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday evening I stated that I
16 received detailed information about the 30th Personnel Centre from
17 Mr. Vuksic's book. I would like to correct that. I looked at the book
18 last night, and I didn't find anything there. I'm sure that I found it
19 in some other materials that I received from the lawyers, but I don't
20 know which materials those were because I was not in a position to speak
21 to the lawyers and you know why.
22 So I would like to correct myself. The information is not from
23 the book that I mentioned but from some materials that I read in the
24 lawyer's office. I would like to apologise for the confusion that I may
25 have caused by mentioning the book as my source of knowledge.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for that explanation,
2 Mr. Kodzopeljic. And I don't see what confusion you may have caused, so
3 thank you very much for the explanation.
4 This brings us to the end of your testimony, Mr. Kodzopeljic,
5 thank you so much for taking the time off from your schedule to come and
6 testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused, and you may please travel
7 well back home. Please stand down.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if we could go into private session, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session
12 [Private session]
11 Page 12520 redacted.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Well, we then stand adjourned to Monday, quarter past 2.00 in the
6 afternoon, Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.08 a.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day
9 of July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.