Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12522

 1                           Monday, 12 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have appearances, starting with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

14     counsel, everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon and Carmela Javier

15     appearing for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             And for the Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good

19     afternoon to all in and around the courtroom.  On behalf of Mr. Perisic,

20     Mr. Novak Lukic and Ms. Tina Drolec.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

22             I'm told -- yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before we introduce the next witness

24     there was one issue that I wanted to raise.  I think private session

25     might be required for this purpose.  Thank you.

Page 12523

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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11 Page 12524 redacted. Private session.















Page 12525

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

17             May we call the witness in, please.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, sir.  And

23     good afternoon to you, sir.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon to you

25     too.

Page 12526

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KOVACEVIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] You're comfortable, sir, aren't you.  Will you

 7     please state your name for the record.

 8        A.   Dusan Kovacevic.

 9        Q.   Date of birth, please, and place of birth.

10        A.   The 25th of December, 1942, the village of Ervenik, Knin

11     municipality, Republic of Croatia.

12        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I will try to quickly go through your CV.  I will

13     state certain information that I've checked with you already.  Please

14     just check if everything is correct and correct me if I'm wrong.

15             Military academy, you completed military academy back in 1965;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The staff command academy in 1980; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The National Defence school, which is the supreme military

21     schooling institution in the JNA, you completed in 1988 and 1989, that

22     academic year; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   At the same time throughout your military career you obtained a

25     degree in engineering as well, did you not, in Zagreb as a matter of

Page 12527

 1     fact?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right, in Zagreb.

 3        Q.   What we find particularly interesting is your specialisation.  It

 4     was the military special-purpose industry; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Which year did you obtain your degree in engineering, if you

 7     remember?

 8        A.   1994.

 9        Q.   In 1994 you were a minister, therefore I assume --

10        A.   I do apologise.  In 1974.  It was a slip of the tongue.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kovacevic, I did draw your attention while you

12     were being proofed that we speak the same language, we understand each

13     other.  Nevertheless, we have interpreters here who are supposed to

14     interpret everything that we say accurately.  Please pause for a couple

15     of seconds after each of my questions and I will do the same after each

16     of your answers in order to avoid overlapping.  Thank you.

17             After military academy, when did you become -- when were you

18     promoted to the rank of second lieutenant?

19        A.   That was in July 1965, after I had completed military academy.

20        Q.   In your military career you filled all the posts, from troop

21     level all the way up to the highest-ranking positions within the corps

22     and the army as a whole; is that a fair statement?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   I will not be going through your entire military career here, but

25     one thing that I can say is everything that you were doing as an

Page 12528

 1     active-duty military officer in the JNA had to do with logistics and

 2     technical services; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  But then as years went by, it had to do with

 4     the overall logistics aspects as well.

 5        Q.   Yes, thank you.  That's what I'll be focusing on.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit P1906

 7     drawn up on our screens now.  This is Mr. Kovacevic's personal file.  In

 8     B/C/S the page number is 7, and the English reference is pages 7 and 8.

 9     It's the last portion that we'll be looking at simply because of our time

10     limitations.  We also noted some discrepancies here and this is something

11     that I would like to set the record straight on with the witness here.

12             What we're looking at here, Your Honours, specifically I'm

13     referring to -- just a minute, please.  I don't think the English entry

14     is consistent.  Or perhaps it is.  These are promotions here on the

15     English page.  What I need is -- just a minute, please.  The next page in

16     the English.  Thank you.  Page 7 in the English, as I said.  All right.

17     It's the third entry that I'm looking at.

18        Q.   In July 1990 you were named commander of the 744th Logistics

19     Base.  Can you see that, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It reads "Tuzla," whereas, in fact, as you told me, the base was

22     located elsewhere.  Can you please set the record straight on that,

23     please.

24        A.   This must be a mistake.  The 744th Logistics Base command was

25     actually at the Sarajevo garrison, the military school centre,

Page 12529

 1     specifically Marsal Tito barracks.

 2        Q.   Following that I see a concept mentioned there, 1st Military

 3     District, and then in the following entry you were named in 1992,

 4     February 1992, as it reads, you were named chief of logistics and

 5     technical services in the command of the 2nd Military District Sarajevo.

 6     We'll come to this at a later stage, but can you just please explain why

 7     this is now called the 2nd Military District?

 8        A.   Because there had been a restructuring effort in the former JNA

 9     by some elements of the 1st and 5th Military Districts, and these were

10     now joined to make up the 2nd Military District, whose command was based

11     at Sarajevo garrison.  It was on the 3rd of January that I was appointed

12     in the year of 1990, I was appointed to this post, the chief of the

13     technical services.  I have no idea why the document reflects the

14     8th of February, 1992, as the correct date.  Other than that, there are

15     quite a number of mistakes in this file.

16        Q.   While you were with the 2nd Military District command, did you

17     discharge any other duties specifically while you were in Sarajevo?

18        A.   I discharged a duty also at the 2nd command -- the command of the

19     2nd Military District, but I was also handing over my duty as the

20     commander of the 744th Logistics Base at the time.  For over a month

21     there was a overlap between these two duties, and throughout that month,

22     I actually occupied both of these posts.

23        Q.   Were you appointed by a particular decision in terms of taking up

24     this duty in February and March 1992 and then up until the time of your

25     departure?

Page 12530

 1        A.   Yes.  I was appointed as stand-in deputy command -- the deputy

 2     commander for logistics of the Sarajevo garrison 2nd Military District.

 3        Q.   Who was the commander of the 2nd Military District at the time?

 4        A.   Colonel-General Milutin Kukanjac, who was also the person who

 5     requested my appointment to that post.

 6        Q.   Fine.  There are two further entries there.  I want to know about

 7     this transfer to the 1st Army Belgrade garrison, the 16th of December,

 8     1992.  Can you explain what that means.

 9        A.   I hadn't even seen this before you showed me the document one or

10     two days ago.  I don't know what it means.

11        Q.   To be quite specific, we identified a number of posts that you

12     filled at the time, chief of technical services, at the same time

13     assistant commander for logistics in the 2nd Military District.  Did you

14     occupy those posts until the time you left Sarajevo territory?

15        A.   Yes, that is right.  Up until the 3rd of May, 1992.  As for the

16     former -- the first appointment mentioned here in the 1st Army, no one

17     ever informed me about this or indeed delivered to me a document to that

18     effect.  As I said, I'm entirely unaware of this.

19        Q.   Did you at one point in time become a member of the VRS and can

20     you specify the point in time and location?  What exactly was your duty?

21     We'll tackle this in more detail at a later stage.  We're just moving

22     along through your CV now.

23        A.   It was sometime early in September 1992.  There was an order by

24     the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Ratko Mladic,

25     appointing me to the Main Staff of the VRS, specifically the logistics

Page 12531

 1     organ.  I worked as an administrator for General Djukic.

 2        Q.   Very well.  And what about later on, what was the next post that

 3     you moved to, if I can put it that way?

 4        A.   It was the Main Staff of the VRS.  If you look at this order and

 5     this establishment post, I remained in this post up until the

 6     19th of January, 1993.  Mr. Lukic, who was appointed by the government,

 7     put my name forward to the parliament of Republika Srpska as a candidate

 8     for defence minister.  The parliament and the Assembly of Republika

 9     Srpska then elected me to that post or position.  And after that, the

10     president of Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, published a decree

11     appointing me to act as defence minister in the RS government.

12        Q.   How long did you remain in that position for, General?

13        A.   August 1994.  I was dismissed and I no longer occupied that post.

14        Q.   What about after that, did you take up another duty in the

15     executive bodies of Republika Srpska or perhaps in the army?

16        A.   There was another presidential decree by Radovan Karadzic

17     appointing me deputy defence minister in the RS government.

18        Q.   All right.  We have two entries here.  I'm looking again at your

19     personal file, the 14th of June, 1995, there was another presidential

20     decree in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, relieving you of your

21     duties.  We'll be looking at these details as we move along through your

22     CV.  And then finally we see you retired by decree by the president of

23     the FRY on the 16th of January, 1996; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   Very well.  We'll be looking at these documents later on, but

Page 12532

 1     later you were promoted in the VRS by President Karadzic to the rank of

 2     major-general on the 19th of January, 1993; is that right, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   We won't be going back to that particular page, but it's there in

 5     your personal file which is in evidence.  You were also promoted in the

 6     VJ by a decree of President Lilic, again major-general.  The

 7     10th of November, 1993, was the date of your promotion; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You held that rank when you eventually retired, did you not?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm going to object because these

13     questions are all leading.  If the -- if these are merely questions to

14     have the witness affirm very quickly and preliminarily these various

15     assertions that Mr. Lukic is putting to the witness, then I don't have an

16     objection.  But I'm worried about leading questions in general and I

17     assume that this -- these are preliminary questions only in what -- I see

18     Mr. Lukic is nodding his head, in which case I'll withdraw my objection

19     and I will -- we can proceed, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this has been the established

22     practice so far, and nevertheless I'll try to do my best to not stray

23     from the course with any truly leading questions.  I will try to do now

24     as the Rules bid me to do.  Nevertheless, this was about the witness's CV

25     and that alone.  We'll no longer be requiring the document that's on our

Page 12533

 1     screens.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, the first topic that I'd like to cover with you

 3     today -- well, first of all, let's clarify one thing.  We talked about

 4     your career a minute ago and saw that you were the commander of the

 5     744th Logistics Base, and then later you worked with the technical

 6     services section of the 1st and then 2nd Military District.

 7             What was the territory of the then-SFRY covered by - if I may put

 8     it that way - your post in 1989/1990, and onwards?

 9        A.   When I served as the commander of the 744th Logistics Base, the

10     infrastructure of that base covered the entire territory or most of the

11     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  When I moved on to my new post in

12     the command of the 2nd Military District, my authority in terms of

13     logistics spread to Zadar, Knin, Bihac, Bakrac, some parts of Slavonia,

14     the Yugoslav border, and all the way down to the seacoast, stopping just

15     short of Trebinje, but including Sibenik and Split where the navy was

16     based.  It was a far greater territory than that covered by both Serbia

17     and Montenegro jointly these days.

18        Q.   According to the concept and doctrine of All People's Defence,

19     let's talk about the logistics base.  How were the reserves of the JNA

20     and the Territorial Defence deployed in the Socialist Federative Republic

21     of Yugoslavia before the former state broke up?

22        A.   Most of the reserves of the former JNA and the federal reserves

23     for the manufacture of weapons and military equipment and most of the raw

24     materials were concentrated in the depots of the 744th Logistics Base.

25     According to the strategic organisation, that was in the central part of

Page 12534

 1     the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.  At the same time in

 2     that central part of the former state -- or rather, in the territory of

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were also the largest number of factories

 4     of the so-called purpose production.  The other logistics base around the

 5     brims of the state covered smaller territories and had smaller reserves

 6     in view of the mobility of the front line and the possibility of evacuate

 7     equipment from those bases from, for example, in Slovenia and Macedonia

 8     towards the interior of the country.

 9        Q.   Tell me, your own 744th Logistics Base, who was it subordinated

10     to and what part of the command chain did it belong to?

11        A.   Before the 2nd Military District was established, the

12     744th Logistics Base in every sense was subordinated to the command of

13     the 1st Military District in Belgrade.  The exception were some very

14     specific professional and technical issue, whereby it was subordinated to

15     the technical administration of the SSNO.

16        Q.   And once the 2nd Military District was established, what happened

17     with that base?

18        A.   When the 2nd Logistics Base [as interpreted] was established, the

19     744th Logistics Base fell under the composition of the 2nd Military

20     District under the command of the Lieutenant-General Milutin Kukanjac and

21     in professional terms it was subordinated to myself.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you're interpreted at page 13, line 15 as:

23             "When the 2nd Logistics Base was established ..."

24             Was this the 2nd Logistics Base or the 2nd Military District?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said expressly this:  When the

Page 12535

 1     2nd Military District was established --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, thank you --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so this is a mistake.  If it

 4     says the 2nd base then it must be a mistake.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Let's be a bit more vivid for all of us in the courtroom.  How

 8     many depots were under this base?  And when I say "depot," I mean a

 9     facility where materiel and equipment are stored.

10        A.   I can't give you a precise number.  I really don't remember.

11     However, there were approximately 20 independent units that were separate

12     from each other.

13        Q.   You also mentioned the military industry that existed before the

14     break-up of the SFRY, and you said that most of the military industry was

15     also located in the central part of the then-Yugoslavia, which is Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina.  What was the relationship between the military industry

17     facilities in -- within the former state?  Were they separate?  Were they

18     independent?  Or were they linked to each other?

19        A.   During the former JNA, the complete military industry, all of the

20     companies within the chain of the military industry, in the territory of

21     the former Yugoslavia were linked into a chain.  No single factory could

22     produce any final product on its own.  When it came to completing one

23     product, several purpose industry companies had to be involved and they

24     were spread all over the former Yugoslavia.  Everything was produced

25     based on partnership and co-operation in technological terms.  Everything

Page 12536

 1     was financed by the Ministry of Defence or by the federal secretariat for

 2     All People's Defence.  Every participant in the production of the final

 3     product received a proportionate payment for the part that they produced

 4     based on the production contract.

 5        Q.   In this courtroom we already heard that from the summer 1991,

 6     when the JNA left the territories of Slovenia and Croatia, certain

 7     changes started happening.  Let me ask you, how did the departure of the

 8     JNA from Slovenia and Croatia reflect on your work and on the work of the

 9     logistics sector?

10        A.   When the war started, first in Slovenia and then in Croatia, all

11     units in the territory of the 1st Military District, in the territory of

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in one part of the territory of Croatia were

13     placed in the state of alert and full combat-readiness.  As the commander

14     of the logistics base, I received orders from the General Staff of the

15     armed forces of the SFRY, and those orders concerned my involvement and

16     my assistance to the then-JNA with the transport of weapons, military

17     equipment, and primarily ammunition from the JNA depots in the

18     territories of Slovenia and Croatia.  Some of those reserves were

19     supposed to be stored in the depots of the 744th Logistics Base, and the

20     other part had to be sent through the territory of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I did that every

22     time I received an order to such an effect.

23             The organisation of transport and transport columns, which

24     sometimes involved hundreds of heavy lorries, was in the hands of the

25     traffic administration of the General Staff of the JNA.  As the commander

Page 12537

 1     of the base, I also engaged my own vehicles and I attached them to those

 2     convoys.

 3             Another form of my assistance was to receive --

 4        Q.   Just a moment, let's dwell upon the issue of convoys and military

 5     columns, and then we'll move on to other tasks.  Did you personally

 6     participate in any of the convoys; if yes, where did you go and what were

 7     your activities in that convoy -- and the time when that happened, if you

 8     remember approximately?

 9        A.   I remember -- I don't remember the exact time, but I remember

10     that it was in late 1991.  I went to the Plitvice sector with a team.  I

11     waited for a convoy there and the convoy consisted of lorries loaded with

12     ammunition - I don't know where from - but in any case all those hailed

13     from the territories of Slovenia and Croatia.  I took over one part of

14     that convoy, about half of those vehicles.  I took them to the depots of

15     the logistics base and I stored all those materiel and equipment.  And

16     the rest was sent to the territory of the SFRY, or rather, Serbia and

17     Montenegro.

18        Q.   When you say "Plitvice," could you please be more precise and

19     tell us where is Plitvice.

20        A.   In Croatia.

21        Q.   Could you tell us approximately how many lorries did you yourself

22     take to your base, to the territory of your base?

23        A.   I believe anything between 40 and 50 lorries.

24        Q.   What other activities did you engage in with regard to the

25     departure of the JNA from the territories of Slovenia and Croatia?

Page 12538

 1        A.   My task was also to receive families of the JNA members with

 2     their personal belongings.  Those people had either left or had been

 3     expelled from the garrisons in Slovenia and Croatia.  I was supposed to

 4     provide them with accommodation, with board and lodging.  I had to

 5     organise their children's admittance to various schools and everything

 6     else that was necessary to provide normal living for those families.

 7             With that view, I took over a civilian hotel in Pale where I

 8     could accommodate about 300 family members.  The hotel had its own

 9     kitchen.  I accommodated all those families there.  The food-supplies

10     came from the army and those families resided there; however, that was

11     not enough.  Therefore, a building within the Marsal Tito barracks

12     compound was designated, and that building used to house cadets.  And

13     that building was converted in order to accommodate several hundreds of

14     people, and that building then accommodated the families of the officers

15     who had arrived from Croatia and Slovenia.  Their personal belongings,

16     furniture and clothes, were housed in a huge sports hall.

17             And the third form of assistance that I provided was to receive

18     the units with their arms and equipment who had left the territory of

19     Croatia.  The first such place was the centre in Zadar headed by the

20     then-Colonel Momcilo Perisic.  And for that unit and his officers, I

21     provided accommodation in the Marsal Tito barracks.  They arrived, they

22     were deployed, and they were billeted there.

23             After a certain while, after a short period of time,

24     General Perisic - who was then colonel, mind you - he invited me and told

25     me that he had been promoted into the rank of general.  I congratulated

Page 12539

 1     him, together with the others who were present there.  He also informed

 2     us that he was being sent to take over the duties of the corps commander

 3     of the JNA in Bileca.  Further on --

 4        Q.   Just a moment, let's be a bit more precise.  In several places

 5     you mentioned the Marsal Tito barracks.  Could you please tell the

 6     Trial Chamber where that barracks is.

 7        A.   I have already told you that that barracks, Marsal Tito, is in

 8     Sarajevo.  That was the largest area -- the largest barracks in every

 9     sense in the entire Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10        Q.   General, where did you live at the time?

11        A.   At the time I lived in the Sarajevo garrison.

12        Q.   And your family, where were they?

13        A.   My family members were also in Sarajevo from 1987 or 1986, when I

14     was provided with an apartment in Sarajevo.

15        Q.   Did they live in an apartment or in the barracks?

16        A.   In the apartment.  I apologise.  I didn't understand your

17     question properly.

18        Q.   And what about you, did you live together with your family during

19     that period of time?  And we are talking about the year 1992.  Could you

20     please be more precise and give us the details.

21        A.   Up to the 1st of March, 1992, I lived at home and I went to work.

22     There was not that much work to do and I was no exception to the rule.

23     Everybody did the same.  However, each and every one of us had to carry

24     our personal weapons because of the perilous journey across town and the

25     threats that we faced while travelling to and from work.  However, on the

Page 12540

 1     1st of March, when the incident happened in Sarajevo, when fire was

 2     opened on the Serbian wedding party and when the bride-groom's father was

 3     killed, the situation became a bit more complicated.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object, Your Honour.  This answer is

 6     non-responsive to the question.

 7             I'm sorry, Your Honour, I am objecting because the answer given

 8     by the witness is non-responsive to the question.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the thing is -- the question was:

10             "And what about you, did you live together with your family

11     during that period of time?  And we are talking about the year 1992.

12     Could you please be more precise and give us the details."

13             I'm not quite sure what details are being asked for here.  This

14     kind of wide-open question allows for a witness to say anything he wants

15     to say under the sun because the questions are not focused.  I'm not

16     quite sure what we are discussing.

17             MR. HARMON:  The question that I -- the way I read the question,

18     Your Honour, is could he give -- did he live with his family --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

20             MR. HARMON:  -- in Sarajevo during that period of time, in 1992.

21     Could you be more precise and give us details, and we have launched into

22     an answer that deals with --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A Serbian wedding.

24             MR. HARMON:  -- yes, a Serbian wedding.  So that's where I take

25     issue with the witness and the non-responsive nature of the answer.

Page 12541

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, can you help us.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness is

 3     answering my question, and let me not talk on the witness's behalf.  I'm

 4     sure that there are reasons for him to answer the way he is.  Okay.  Let

 5     me repeat my question.

 6        Q.   How --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute, wait a minute, Mr. Lukic.  There's

 8     an objection on the table.  We've got to rule on it.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I believe --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say the witness is answering your

11     question, what has a Serbian wedding got to do with his living in the

12     same house as his family?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that there is a link

14     between the two things, but I don't want to lead the witness into

15     answering the question.  But I can rephrase the question and I can ask

16     the witness whether the incident on the 1st of March had any impact on

17     the freedom of movement around the city of Sarajevo.  Maybe it will be

18     clearer to everybody.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, with all respect, the incident of the

20     1st of March has nothing to do with whether or not this witness lived

21     with his family in his house.  It's a different topic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a big impact.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour.  I --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If he lived with his family until the 1st of March

25     and because of what happened on the 1st of March that changed, he can say

Page 12542

 1     so.  I lived with my family until the 1st of March, on the 1st of March

 2     something happened, and therefore I stopped -- it makes the conversation

 3     flow and we can understand where he's going.  But the way he's talking,

 4     we don't understand how the 1st of March and a Serbian wedding have got

 5     to do with a man's wedding -- with a man's place of residence because he

 6     doesn't link the two.  We're just getting facts thrown at us which don't,

 7     on the face of them, seem to relate.  Okay.

 8             Let the witness then answer and tell us how all these things link

 9     together, but let them be logical.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, a specific question:  How long did you live in

12     your flat for with your family?

13        A.   I came and I went with no obstruction whatsoever up until the

14     1st of March, 1992 --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Kovacevic, again you are not

16     answering the question.  The question, listen:  How long did you live in

17     your flat for with your family?

18             Don't tell us you came and you went.  Tell us:  I lived with my

19     family for three years, for four years, for hundred years, and then stop

20     there.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived with my family for about

22     ten years.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Starting from ...?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1972, in Sarajevo.  In that flat,

25     from 1983 or 1984.

Page 12543

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You carry on, sir.  I don't know what "In that

 2     flat, from 1983 or 1984" means.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We had an interpretation problem,

 4     Your Honour.  The witness and I understood each other, but the

 5     interpretation was not correct previously.  We'll try to move on

 6     gradually and take it slowly in order to not create any further problems.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   How far was your flat from your work at the time?

10        A.   About 2 kilometres.

11        Q.   What was the location of your flat, since the Trial Chamber knows

12     a number of locations in Sarajevo?

13        A.   Specifically Dolac Malta.

14        Q.   Which neighbourhood would that be?

15        A.   Hrasno.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And what about your work, where was it at the time?

17        A.   The command of the 2nd Military District, the 6th of April Square

18     at the foot of Bistrik.

19        Q.   So why were you no longer able to go back home to Hrasno after

20     the 6th of March?

21        A.   Because, by way of a response to the killing of one of the people

22     who were involved in the wedding, the Serbs set up barricades across

23     Sarajevo and around.  They were reacting to what had occurred.  Soon

24     after, the Muslims put up their own barricades across the city of

25     Sarajevo, in those areas in which they constituted a majority, and had

Page 12544

 1     the streets and whole neighbourhoods under their control.  For that

 2     reason, the Muslim forces blocked the command of the 2nd Military

 3     District or laid siege to it at the foot of Bistrik.

 4             No one was able to go in or out without approval from the BH MUP.

 5     If anyone tried to force their way out, they would be fired on.  That was

 6     the reason that I wasn't staying with my family from the 1st of March on,

 7     until such time as I left Sarajevo altogether, until such time as I was

 8     able to evacuate my family in mid-1992, sometime like July or

 9     August 1992.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I do not understand the witness's

11     answer at page 22, line 11.  I seem to think that something is missing in

12     that sentence because your next question doesn't relate to what was said

13     in that answer and I suspect that you and him heard each other.  The

14     answer there -- you asked him:

15             "Thank you.  And what about your work, where was it at that time?

16             "The command of the 2nd Military District, the 6th of April

17     Square, at the foot of ..."

18             Something's definitely missing there because your next question

19     is:

20             "... why were you no longer able to ..."

21             So it looks like he's told us something about why that he left

22     his family around the 6th of -- nothing's missing?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  Your Honour, if I may correct

24     this.  He said it right.  This is the address, the 6th of April Square,

25     it's what a square is called, the 6th of April Square.  And my question

Page 12545

 1     was in response to his previous answer about him not being able to go

 2     back home any longer.  So the interpretation there is correct.  He stayed

 3     at the command.  He was at the command.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon.

 7             Where did he say he stayed at the command if -- before you asked

 8     that question:

 9             "So why were you no longer able to go back home?"

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My question was at line 10, where was

11     his work, where was he working at the time, line 10.  And his answer at

12     line 11.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  I see.  That's what we've just been

14     discussing.  Now question at line 13, what prompts that?  What prompted

15     your question at line 13?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was picking up where

17     I'd left off before, how long did he live in his flat for, did he stay in

18     his flat for.  That is the logic of my question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay --

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the page number.

22     The interpreters could not understand whether it's 20 or 21.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters did not hear what page you're

24     referring us to.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 21, line 5.

Page 12546

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In order to understand what follows, I'd like to go back to

 4     something else.  Mr. Kovacevic, how were the armed forces organised

 5     before the war, the armed forces of the SFRY?  What did they do?

 6        A.   They were the Territorial Defences of the republics and provinces

 7     and the armed units of the JNA.

 8        Q.   Who had the command over the Territorial Defences of the

 9     republics and provinces?

10        A.   The Supreme Command was the Supreme Command of everyone, and each

11     of the republics had their own staff and their own staff commander, which

12     applied to the TO of that particular republic as well.

13        Q.   What became of the BH Territorial Defence from the start of 1991

14     onwards?

15        A.   It fell to pieces, as paramilitary units were being set up on all

16     three sides.  The members of the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina, even as

17     late as 1991, refused to observe the orders of the then-SFRY and the

18     Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY.  What prompted them to

19     do that was a decision taken by the then-government at the proposal of

20     the then-defence minister, Jerko Doko, to stop sending recruits to the

21     JNA and its institutions and to separate the TO units from the armed

22     forces of the SFRY.

23        Q.   When you say "the government," whose government, page 25,

24     line 12?  Which government took that decision?

25        A.   The government of the SF -- of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia

Page 12547

 1     and Herzegovina, late in 1991.

 2        Q.   Who was it sending the call-ups to the TO conscripts at the time

 3     which they then decided not to reply to or not to respond to?

 4        A.   I said that it was forbidden to send call-ups to recruits from

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina in its entirety, for them to be sent to the units

 6     and institutions of the JNA.  Nevertheless, the Territorial Defence that

 7     was now no longer part of the armed forces of the SFRY, all three sides,

 8     the Muslim side, the Croatian side, and the Serbian side, they all

 9     organised their own Territorial Defence units.

10        Q.   Just a minute, please.  I would like us to address this gradually

11     and to get a better explanation of how this worked.  How did they

12     organise their own Territorial Defence?  What does your information

13     indicate and who provided them with weapons?

14        A.   Most members of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

15     the time were Muslims or Croats.  The Muslims left following a request by

16     their leadership and were joining the units of the Patriotic League and

17     other paramilitary units.  The Croat TO members joined the Croatian

18     Defence Council, and the Serbs went to different regions and

19     municipalities to join the TO units there that were under the control of

20     the local Serbian authorities.

21        Q.   When you say the "Serbian authorities," what were the political

22     bodies that in your opinion controlled those local authorities in these

23     municipalities?

24        A.   The Serbian Democratic Party was in power throughout these areas

25     that had a Serb majority.

Page 12548

 1        Q.   What about any of these newly founded Territorial Defence units,

 2     do you know if any of them upheld the constitutional system of the SFRY

 3     or not?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, before we get to the -- that separate

 6     question by Mr. Lukic, there is a question that he put to the witness

 7     that the witness did not answer and it's found on page 26, line 6.

 8     Mr. Lukic asked the witness:

 9             "How did they organise their own Territorial Defence?  What does

10     your information indicate and who provided them with weapons?"

11             And a portion of the second question that was asked in those two

12     questions was who provided them with weapons and the witness has not

13     answered that portion of the question, and I think we are moving on to a

14     different topic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I agree.  Perhaps the

16     complexity of my question has led to this.

17        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, what do you know about where these three forms of

18     Territorial Defence and their units got their weapons and supplies from?

19        A.   There was a directive of the federal secretary for

20     National Defence, General Veljko Kadijevic.  It was issued in 1991.

21     Pursuant to this directive, the then-units and institutions of the JNA or

22     the 2nd Military District command acted on that directive, which said

23     that the units should receive supplies and be organised for a defence

24     effort.  It also said that a mobilisation effort should be undertaken,

25     the principal objective being the preservation of Yugoslavia as it was.

Page 12549

 1     If it proved impossible to keep Slovenia or Croatia within Yugoslavia,

 2     then by all means it should be attempted by the JNA to preserve the

 3     remaining territories of the former Yugoslavia.  The front line, so to

 4     speak, for that decision was in BH territory.

 5             The Serbian side in Bosnia-Herzegovina committed itself to

 6     leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina within the SFRY, as part of the SFRY.  It

 7     used all of its resources and power to aid the JNA in achieving that

 8     objective.  At any rate, it was only the JNA that mobilised all those who

 9     under their war assignment were assigned, Serbs, Croats, and Muslims

10     alike.  Nevertheless, in most of the cases, 99 per cent I would say, it

11     was the Serbs who responded to these call-ups.  The units received ethnic

12     Serbs, for the most part those who were with the Territorial Defence or

13     were volunteers.  As for these volunteers, we would organise their files.

14     We would give them their supplies and their weapons as part of JNA units,

15     according to the war assignment, each unit as had originally been

16     planned.

17        Q.   Just a minute, Mr. Kovacevic, I see that the Presiding Judge is

18     responding to this, but just in order to try and keep our answers

19     precise.  This Territorial Defence that you mentioned at a local level in

20     these municipalities that were in the political structures of the Serbian

21     leadership, who armed them, if anyone armed them at all?  Where did they

22     get their weapons from?  And then we can go on to number 2 and number 3.

23     Just be more specific, please.

24        A.   I believe those Territorial Defence units under the command of

25     the Serbian authorities were armed by the local Serb authorities, not the

Page 12550

 1     JNA.  The other issue was that all three sides including the Serb TO

 2     attacked JNA warehouses and storage facilities.

 3        Q.   We'll get to that later on.  Do you know who armed the TO units

 4     that were, as you said, the HVO or had to do with the Croatian Defence

 5     Council?

 6        A.   The HVO was armed by the Main Staff from Croatia because they

 7     were directly under their command.

 8        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Very well.  Sir, what do you know about

 9     the Territorial Defence that was part of the Muslim ethnicity, so to

10     speak, where did they get their weapons and how did they organise

11     themselves?

12        A.   As far as I know, they set up the Patriotic League, both the

13     volunteer units and the TO units were armed by the Muslim authorities

14     that existed at the time and the SDA political party.

15        Q.   Which of these three forms of the TO, if any, were recognised by

16     the constitutional order of the SFRY?

17        A.   There were these three peoples, three systems, three TOs.  Only

18     the Serb side recognised the constitutional order of the SFRY.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, the answer is telling us who of the three

20     recognised the constitution of the SFRY.  The question was:  Which of the

21     three was recognised by the constitution of the SFRY?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.  I think the question was

23     misinterpreted.

24             I'll repeat my question.  I think the witness and I actually

25     understood each other.  I'll repeat the question.  I apologise to the

Page 12551

 1     interpreters.  May they please correct me if I speak too fast.

 2        Q.   Which of these three forms of the Territorial Defence found

 3     itself within or recognised the constitutional system of the SFRY?

 4        A.   Only the Serb TO, the TO of the Serb side or the Serb people.

 5        Q.   Another thing that you raised a while ago, I'd like you to be

 6     slight more specific about it.  You talked about mobilisation.  We've

 7     heard evidence here on the mobilisation.  Who makes up the reserve and

 8     the active component of an army or a unit?  Who responded to these

 9     mobilisation call-ups on the side of the JNA?

10        A.   The Serbs alone.  All the others, the Muslims and the Croats,

11     were banned from responding by the then-government and defence minister

12     in that government.

13        Q.   If they responded to mobilisation call-ups, were they then armed

14     by the JNA, given their establishment post within the reserve component?

15        A.   Only those members who accepted to now be part of the JNA and who

16     accepted the command of the JNA and its insignia.  Those now regularly

17     formed all these units, platoons, battalions, and so on and so forth, and

18     got their weapons under their war assignment as envisaged.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe the time has come for our

20     first break, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed it has.  We will take a break and come back

22     at 4.00.  Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 12552

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, before these new forms of Territorial Defence were

 3     set up, the earlier TOs with the JNA, did they have their own weapons

 4     depots and storage facilities that had been given to them and placed at

 5     their disposal?

 6        A.   Yes, they had their ammunition and weapons stock for their own

 7     TO staffs at the level of republics and provinces.  They had their

 8     storage facilities which were, for the most part, within the system of

 9     warehouses belonging to the JNA.

10        Q.   Do you know what became of these storage facilities that were in

11     their hands, as it were, and that contained weapons?  What happened to

12     them within this process of disintegration of the TO?

13        A.   All the three sides tried to seize weapons by attacking various

14     storage facilities, both those storage facilities belonging to

15     Territorial Defence and those belonging to the JNA.

16        Q.   Were these attempts on their part successful and did they manage

17     to get their hands on weapons and ammunition?

18        A.   In the course of 1991 they were not or they were but to a very

19     small extent, this because all the warehouses had been established

20     according to war-time assignments and the personnel who were to man these

21     storage facilities were deployed and manned to their full size.  In the

22     cases where storage facilities were held under siege, large units were

23     put together that had to break through these sieges and gain control of

24     warehouses.

25             Now, later on, especially in the months of March and April 1992,

Page 12553

 1     in other words, after the issuing of the directive by the then-Presidency

 2     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, concerning the attacks on the JNA and the

 3     Serbian Territorial Defence that had been declared as the biggest enemy

 4     of the BH, we within the command of the 2nd District were under a heavy

 5     blockade, as were all the JNA units and warehouses, both under a blockade

 6     and under attacks from armed formations.

 7        Q.   We will get to these events later.  Were you involved in any

 8     negotiations or discussions concerning storage facilities - and I mean

 9     ammunition warehouses - that had come under attack from these structures?

10        A.   I was involved in negotiations when the Novi Travnik weapons

11     factory was attacked.

12        Q.   Pause there, please.  I would like to discuss several issues

13     related to this.  Can you tell us, first of all, what this Novi Travnik

14     weapons factory manufactured and who forced their way into the factory at

15     the time.

16        A.   The Novi Travnik factory called Bratstvo, "brotherhood," was one

17     of the special-purpose factories in the former Yugoslavia.  It

18     manufactured artillery and anti-aircraft weaponry, i.e., mortars,

19     cannons, howitzers, and anti-aircraft guns for 20- and 30-millimetre

20     calibres.  They covered all the manufacturing process, save for the

21     fitting of the optical sights, et cetera, which was done elsewhere.

22             In early February of 1992, the deputy prime minister of the

23     government of the then-Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24     Mr. Cengic, informed General Kukanjac that an amount of -- a certain

25     amount of mortars had been forcibly taken out of the Bratstvo factory.

Page 12554

 1     He asked for his assistance in ensuring that the weapons be returned.

 2     Mr. Cengic, General Kukanjac, and myself went to the Novi Travnik

 3     municipal building, where for the first time I had occasion to see the

 4     HVO army fully uniformed and armed walking about the streets.  They had

 5     dug up trenches and mounted artillery emplacements there.

 6             The director of the Bratstvo factory, Colonel Pavelic, was

 7     waiting for us in the municipal building and he told us that the HVO had

 8     forced their way to the factory Bratstvo and seized three trailer-truck

 9     loads of 82- 60- and 120-millimetre mortars as well as cannons, and I

10     don't know how many, 20/1 and 20/3 cannons.  He also told us that the

11     HVO army under the command of Dario Kordic -- therefore, that they were

12     under his command.

13             We waited for an hour before Dario Kordic arrived in the company

14     of others to take part in these negotiations.  It was mostly the

15     Deputy Prime Minister Cengic who talked to him, and on occasion

16     General Kukanjac joined the conversation.  They pleaded with him that it

17     was an unlawful act which was unacceptable and that the weapons had to be

18     returned, otherwise a general atmosphere of insecurity would be created

19     in the area and other ethnicities would be threatened by this forcible

20     act of weapons seizure.

21             Dario Kordic's reply was that his Main Staff was stationed in

22     Zagreb and that he would comply with their orders only.  He also said

23     that they should -- that they should apply to Zagreb because he would not

24     be complying with any orders coming from the BH authorities, and even

25     less so those coming from the JNA.

Page 12555

 1        Q.   You said what position Mr. Cengic held.  Can you tell us which

 2     party was he a member of -- he was representing authorities together with

 3     General Kukanjac.

 4        A.   The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time had

 5     representatives of all the three ethnic groups.  The prime minister was a

 6     Croat, deputy prime minister was a Muslim, and some ministers were Serbs.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us about Cengic, please.  That's what I'd like to

 8     know.

 9        A.   Cengic was the deputy prime minister of that mixed government and

10     he represented the Muslim people.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Finally, the weapons that had been seized and that

12     were the subject of negotiations with Kordic, were they returned to the

13     factory or not?

14        A.   For as long as I was part of the command of the

15     2nd Military District and received information, the weapons had not been

16     returned to anyone and stayed in possession of the HVO.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What was the situation like with the barracks in the

18     2nd Military District at the time, that's to say, around February 1992?

19        A.   This event, this incident, as well as some others caused great

20     unrest and made the Serbian people [as interpreted] very upset.  They

21     resorted to organising their army at a higher level and arming it as

22     well.

23        Q.   Just a second, please.  You said - and I have a correction to

24     make - page 34, line 10, the witness said that this event made both the

25     Serbian and the Muslim people very upset.  Is that right?

Page 12556

 1        A.   Yes, in this particular area that was the case.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   For this reason, Cengic and Kukanjac went to Zenica; I joined

 4     them.  They made an appearance on Radio Zenica and tried to persuade

 5     people who had already taken to the streets to calm down and that the

 6     situation was under control, although that was not the case.  In fact, it

 7     was not under control at the time.

 8        Q.   I asked you what the situation was like with the barracks and the

 9     life in the barracks.

10        A.   As a result, the barracks and all the military installations in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina came under increased attacks and instances of

12     blockade.  The situation was very difficult and in some warehouses it was

13     highly dramatic.  All the three sides got engaged in actions --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, your question was specifically about the

15     barracks and you said specifically about the barracks.  Part of the

16     answer says:  "... the situation was very difficult and in some

17     warehouses it was highly dramatic."

18             I'm not quite sure --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, we have discussed storage facilities already, so

21     I'd like you to focus now on what you knew of the barracks.  What was the

22     situation on that score in that period of time?

23        A.   All the barracks were blocked.  The JNA personnel who were in

24     these barracks were target of sniper fire.  The commander of the military

25     school centre in Sarajevo, General Baros, placed a phone call to

Page 12557

 1     General Kukanjac, and told him that they could no longer withstand the

 2     fire that the barracks was exposed to.  Kukanjac took a combat infantry

 3     vehicle on wheels, invited me to join him, and we managed to get through

 4     the blockade that was put in place around the command building.  We

 5     reached the gate of the compound of the military school, got into the

 6     complex, and General Baros indicated to us the sniper fire emplacements

 7     that were used to open fire at the school teaching staff as well as

 8     cadets.  These were three or four high-rise buildings on the northern

 9     side of the barracks.  They were some ten storeys high, and all these

10     buildings held sharp-shooters and sniper fire emplacements.  There were

11     two cranes that had been used for construction works, and I personally

12     saw a sharp-shooter in the cabin of one such crane.  However, all the

13     staff within the school compound had instructions not to return fire.

14             On our return from that mission, we informed the General Staff in

15     Belgrade of the situation, but nobody acted on this and the situation

16     grew increasingly difficult.

17        Q.   Can you tell us roughly when this was?

18        A.   It was certainly after the directive had been issued; in other

19     words, early April.

20        Q.   Of 1992; is that right?

21        A.   1992, yes.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to -- I

23     would like us to look at two documents together with the witness, and

24     bearing in mind your instructions concerning the documents that are not

25     on the 65 ter Defence list, I should first like to apply for one of these

Page 12558

 1     two documents, number 3379D, to be placed on a 65 ter list.  This is a

 2     document which we were disclosed by the Prosecution under Rule 68 last

 3     Thursday, and I proofed the witness on this document.  I would like us to

 4     look at it now.  It's the report that the witness, Dusan Kovacevic, sent

 5     on behalf of the 2nd military command to the sector for logistics of the

 6     General Staff of the FRY, dated April 1992 --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the day.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Harmon.

10             MR. HARMON:  No objection, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             You may place it on the -- you may have a look at it.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Both documents are in English.  Could

14     the witness please be shown the B/C/S version as well.  Thank you.  And

15     now we're waiting for the English text still.  Thank you.

16             Could the English version please be blown up a little and could

17     the B/C/S version be scrolled down -- or rather, could we see page 3, the

18     signature page, to display the name of the author of the documents and

19     then we'll return to page 1.  Thank you.

20        Q.   General, do you know who the author of the document is?  Are you

21     familiar with the signature?

22        A.   I am the author of this document.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's go back to page 1.

25        Q.   And I will invite your comment on the document.  I'm not going to

Page 12559

 1     read the document, General, but I will ask you to read slowly for

 2     yourself.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back to page

 4     number 1 in B/C/S.

 5        Q.   But first of all, tell us what is this?  What is the nature of

 6     this document?

 7        A.   This document covers the operative logistics situation in the

 8     units and institutions of the 2nd Military District, and documents of

 9     this nature were issued every day in the form of daily reports.  Or in

10     other words, this is a daily report which was drafted pursuant to an

11     order of the General Staff of the armed forces of the SFRY.  And in such

12     documents we responded to the instructions and we described everything

13     that was requested from us in that order.

14        Q.   Could you please look at the second paragraph.  Could you read

15     from the screen "movement on the roads."

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please read for yourself and then I will invite your

18     comment of that particular sentence.

19        A.   I don't have to read.  I am familiar with the contents and I've

20     read it in any case.

21        Q.   Tell us, what was the situation with regard to the free movement

22     across the roads of Bosnia and Herzegovina up to then and from that date?

23        A.   On the 1st of March, the barricades were placed across the entire

24     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina by all the three Territorial Defence

25     armies.  Then the leadership in Belgrade struck a deal with

Page 12560

 1     President Alija Izetbegovic.  According to that deal, military columns of

 2     the JNA that were passing through the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 3     could move exclusively under the police escort, and that police escort

 4     was provided by the Bosnia and Herzegovina MUP and the military police of

 5     the JNA.  Every convoy, every individual movement, had to be announced to

 6     the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They in turn approved such convoys

 7     and they checked whether the vehicles were indeed escorted by the police.

 8     That arrangement functioned up to the beginning of April, and then a ban

 9     was imposed on the movement of such vehicles because the leadership of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina refused to provide escort to such vehicles and

11     convoys.

12             The barricades on the roads prevented the passage of such

13     columns, which was a huge problem for JNA units.

14        Q.   Very well.  Could you please read the last sentence in the first

15     part:  "The SDS forces ..."  Can you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you remember and can you tell the Trial Chamber something

18     about the contents of this report with regard to those forces, who were

19     they and what they did?

20        A.   The Filipovic Foca depot was on the strength of the

21     744th Logistics Base under my command, and I'm very familiar with this

22     whole thing.  That was a brand new depot with underground tanks and also

23     storage space above the ground.  The SDS forces forcibly stormed the

24     depot armed.  They captured the JNA members who guarded the depot and

25     they took over the control of those depots.  No intervention, either mine

Page 12561

 1     or by General Kukanjac, managed to return the depot under the control of

 2     the 2nd Military District.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us approximately how much fuel was stored in the

 4     depot at that time?

 5        A.   I can't tell you exactly, but as I've already told you, that was

 6     a new depot which was being filled.  I believe that it was up to

 7     one-third of the capacity full by that time.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

 9     please be given an exhibit number.

10             MR. HARMON:  No objection, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

12             The document is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given

13     an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit D399.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A similar procedure and a similar

18     document, Your Honours.  Again, the document was received last Friday,

19     pursuant to Rule 68.  It is 65 ter 03380D.  It is not on our 65 ter list.

20     Could the document please be included and could we please then invite the

21     witness to comment on the document.  It is a report that was issued on

22     the same day.

23             MR. HARMON:  Again, Your Honour, we have no objection.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Again, let's wait for the English

Page 12562

 1     version to appear on the screen next to the B/C/S version.  Thank you.

 2             Again, could we please see page 3 in B/C/S to display the name of

 3     the author of the document, and then I'm going to ask the witness whether

 4     he recognises the signature of the author.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm the author of the document and

 6     I signed the document myself.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can we now go back to

10     page number 1, please.

11        Q.   Just briefly I would invite your comment, sir.  I would like to

12     discuss just a couple of points, a couple of entries in the document.  On

13     page 1 where it says "situation in the units," you are saying somewhere

14     in the middle:

15             "As of 1700 hours, 28 of April, 1992, all military and PTT lines

16     of the 2nd Military District command communications are cut off.  A small

17     number of connections were established during the day.  We do not have

18     any communications with most of the units which makes our management

19     efforts more complex."

20             General, this is your report, this is your information, and let

21     me not lead you, but here the command of the 2nd Military District is

22     referred to.  Were you in your work-place in the command of the

23     2nd Military District when this report was drafted?

24        A.   Yes, I was in my work-place in the 2nd Military District command.

25     And what is stated in here is correct.  Communication lines were

Page 12563

 1     interrupted between the command of the 2nd Military District and the

 2     subordinated units.  That was a huge problem for us.  We could not

 3     establish communication with our subordinated units.  It was impossible

 4     to do it in a physical way because of the blockade or by telephone or any

 5     other similar communications because the local authorities and the

 6     government of BiH had issued an order to interrupt PTT communications.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go to the following page

 9     in B/C/S and English.  The subtitle reads:  "Traffic support."

10        Q.   Could you please look at the first paragraph, General, under

11     "Traffic support."

12        A.   Yes, as I've already stated, from the 1st of March the entire

13     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina was covered by barricades erected by

14     the three peoples in their respective territories, and here I report that

15     barricades with 20-30 armed persons were put up on the

16     Tuzla-Doboj-Prnjavor road as well as on the Brijesnica-Gracanica-Doboj

17     road.  Those two barricades were put up by the SDA, which means the

18     Muslim side, and in the village of Stanari it was put by the SDS, or the

19     Serb side.  The JNA convoys were obstructed by the barricades put up by

20     all the three peoples.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 3 in B/C/S

22     and I suppose the page is the same in the English version of the

23     document.

24        Q.   And here you are referring to the city of Sarajevo and access

25     roads to the city of Sarajevo.  General, could you please read the part

Page 12564

 1     above the word "requests."

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is what I would

 3     like to invite the witness to comment upon.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'll just interrupt.  At page 42,

 5     line 6, the transcript reads:

 6             "The JNA convoys were obstructed by the barricades put up by all

 7     the three peoples."

 8             Now, according to this document we see SDA and SDS.  Who -- I'm

 9     just wondering whether the witness talked of three peoples or two

10     peoples; and if not, who is the third?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, you heard Judge Moloto's words.  Could you please be

13     more precise and tell us who the three peoples are.  What barricades are

14     you talking about specifically?

15        A.   I'm referring to the barricades put up by the Serbs.  Those

16     barricades were manned exclusively by Serbs; and as for the barricades

17     which were put up by the Muslims, those barricades were manned by both

18     Muslims and Croats, the latter in a smaller number.

19        Q.   General, the part that I want you to comment starts with the

20     words:

21             "The focus of limitations is being implemented in Central

22     Bosnia ..."

23             I would kindly ask you, Mr. Kovacevic, to look at the part about

24     Sarajevo, where it says:

25             "One can come close to the town from the Pale direction through

Page 12565

 1     Lukavica ..."

 2             My question is this:  Who was it who did not allow entrance into

 3     the city of Sarajevo from any side?

 4        A.   The then-Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina whose members were

 5     members of the Muslim and Croatian peoples.  Ejub Ganic and

 6     Stjepan Kljujic, respectively, supported by all the other members of the

 7     Territorial Defence staff.  They had set up the Supreme Command of the

 8     armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They employed their forces which

 9     were organised as the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and the

10     Territorial Defence, and volunteer units to establish their own army; and

11     they deployed those units of their army who were armed, and thus they

12     managed to block Sarajevo from all sides.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please tender this document

15     into evidence, Your Honour.

16             MR. HARMON:  No objection, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.

18             Thanks, Mr. Harmon.

19             May it please be given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

21     Exhibit D400.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, did there come a time when fire was opened at the

25     command of the 2nd Military District; if that was indeed the case, when

Page 12566

 1     did it happen and what happened?

 2        A.   Yes, fire was opened, there was an attack.  I can answer any

 3     question that you may have; however, can we take things one at a time?

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you when was the command of the 2nd Military

 5     District attacked, do you remember the date?

 6        A.   The command of the 2nd Military District was attacked on the

 7     2nd of May, 1993.

 8        Q.   Just a moment, please.  You say "1993" --

 9        A.   I apologise, 1992.  I apologise.

10        Q.   And before that, was any other facility in Sarajevo attacked, any

11     military facility in Sarajevo?

12        A.   If you will allow me, I'll try and give you the briefest possible

13     sequence of events.  General Kukanjac and all of us in the command of the

14     2nd Military District expected a peaceful solution to the crisis in

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that indeed did happen.  The so-called

16     Lisbon Agreement was signed.  That agreement was favourable for the JNA

17     and meant that there would be no war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The

18     Muslim side was not happy with the fact that Izetbegovic had signed that

19     agreement.  They decided to start a war by launching an attack against

20     the JNA.

21             On the 2nd of May, around 1200 hours, noon, the Croatian and

22     Muslim forces under the command of the Presidency of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina launched an attack against the JNA army club building in

24     Sarajevo.  That was a cultural facility.  It was not a military facility

25     at all.  The guards were civilians and there were a few soldiers, perhaps

Page 12567

 1     three or four, who at that moment were busy loading up vehicles with

 2     equipment from the hall.  We received information that the building had

 3     come under an attack, and General Kukanjac sent Colonel Suput with a unit

 4     and several vehicles to extend assistance to those men and help them

 5     withdraw from the building.

 6             Before that unit reached the building, the building came under

 7     fierce attack and the commander, Colonel Suput, radioed General Kukanjac

 8     and sent him a message that there were dead, wounded, and imprisoned

 9     soldiers.  General Kukanjac took another decision, an order that part of

10     the unit that was at the military hospital in Sarajevo should be

11     dispatched along with two medical unit vehicles and escorted by a number

12     of armed military policemen.  The objective was to evacuate the dead and

13     wounded as well as any other people remaining there.

14             The men were ambushed at Skenderija before they reached the scene

15     of the incident.  They came under heavy fire.  Most were killed on the

16     spot.  Some were burned alive in their vehicles because high-voltage

17     electricity from the tram lines was used to incinerate their vehicles.

18     All of them were either killed, wounded, or captured.

19             After this there was a fierce attack that was launched on the

20     2nd Military District command building by units that had previously

21     surrounded the building.  All sorts of infantry weapons, small-arms, were

22     used as well as mortars, hand-held launchers, OSA weapons, Zoljas,

23     anti-aircraft guns.  It was a scene of sheer horror.

24        Q.   Were there any talks at any point in time aimed at halting the

25     attack on the 2nd of May?

Page 12568

 1        A.   The attack continued until past 2000 hours that evening.  At this

 2     point, General Kukanjac got a call from the airport commander,

 3     Colonel Magazin.  The airport was then being held by the JNA.

 4     Colonel Magazin told General Kukanjac that Alija Izetbegovic had landed

 5     at the airport and that he was not greeted by anyone from the

 6     BH authorities or, for that matter, anyone from UNPROFOR.  Kukanjac said,

 7     "Let him wait.  I need to see what exactly is going on."

 8             Later on, General Kukanjac informed us that he had found out

 9     about the Muslim extremist leadership in Sarajevo being unhappy about

10     Izetbegovic signing the Lisbon Agreement.  He said that they had

11     organised an attempt on Izetbegovic's life and tried to kill him at the

12     confrontation line itself, an area surrounded by the JNA.  They would

13     then go on and accuse the JNA of the attempt and also use that to justify

14     all of these ongoing clashes.

15             General Kukanjac handed over to the commander of the 4th Corps in

16     Lukavica, General Djurdjevac --

17             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm going to object to the

18     answer.  The question that was asked is:

19             "Were there any talks at any point in time aimed at halting the

20     attack on the 2nd of May?"

21             We have strayed far from that particular question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe we are still within the

24     framework of that question.  All the witness is doing is trying to help

25     us understand how he held these talks and what the talks were actually

Page 12569

 1     held for.  It would be very difficult for us to understand the entire

 2     answer in terms of who was holding these talks and why unless we first

 3     found out about Mr. Izetbegovic's whereabouts at this point in time.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It would help if you want to find out the

 5     whereabouts about Mr. Izetbegovic to ask about the whereabouts of

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic, instead of asking about talks to hold the attacks.  You

 7     know, maybe you are the one confusing the witness then if you are

 8     expecting him to tell us about Izetbegovic in answer to a question about

 9     talks.  So -- because we don't know what you want to extract from the

10     witness.  We can only go by the questions that you put, and when the

11     answer does not seem to answer the question, we are left dismayed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  I'll try to not create

13     any more confusion; that is certainly the last thing I wish to do.

14        Q.   General, what happened to Alija Izetbegovic, just to sum up

15     briefly, please, and then I'll go back to my question.

16        A.   Once it became known that there would be an attempt on his life,

17     General Kukanjac ordered that Alija Izetbegovic be brought in and taken

18     to the 4th Corps command at Lukavica.

19        Q.   Were there any talks that evening?  Who was involved?  And what

20     was at stake?

21        A.   General Kukanjac pleaded with Izetbegovic to stop the attack on

22     the command building.  Izetbegovic talked to Ganic on the phone in order

23     to convince the leadership to put a stop to the attack, which is what

24     eventually happened.  An agreement was reached for talks to resume the

25     next day, the 3rd of May.

Page 12570

 1        Q.   Who was involved in these talks the next day and what was the

 2     goal of these continuing talks?

 3        A.   A telephone agreement had been reached between Kukanjac and

 4     Izetbegovic, the objective being to allow the JNA to leave the

 5     2nd Military District command building unhindered in any way, to allow

 6     them to simply leave.  Izetbegovic accepted that.  On the 3rd of May, the

 7     talks continued, specifically between Ejub Ganic, a member of the

 8     BH Presidency, and General Aksentijevic representing the other side.  He

 9     was an accredited negotiator on behalf of the JNA or the 2nd Military

10     District in this case, the 2nd Military District command.

11             The talks were also attended by Mr. Doyle and Mr. Santos,

12     representatives of international community, as well as General MacKenzie,

13     who was the UNPROFOR commander.

14        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Was any agreement reached and what

15     happened next?

16        A.   It was agreed that General Kukanjac should leave the command

17     building on his own, that he should go to Lukavica and order a ceasefire

18     by the JNA.  At the same time it was agreed that Izetbegovic would be off

19     to the Presidency building to order a cease-fire to the other side, the

20     Muslim side.  As a matter of principle, Kukanjac accepted this agreement.

21     He designated he to stand-in for him once he was out of the command

22     building.

23             Nevertheless, I had my own condition to impose.  I wanted three

24     UNPROFOR men to stay with me back at the command building.  I knew that

25     the crowd laying siege to the building would eventually be launching an

Page 12571

 1     attack.  General Kukanjac accepted that and told Aksentijevic, "Go see

 2     Ganic and make that proposal."  Aksentijevic left, and as we were waiting

 3     for him to come back, we used our Motorolas and radio communication to

 4     find out who was ordering the Muslim forces to kill Kukanjac and at any

 5     cost prevent him from reaching Lukavac -- Lukavica alive.

 6        Q.   Where was Izetbegovic at this point in time?

 7        A.   Still at Lukavica.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  Go on, please.

 9        A.   For this reason, Kukanjac gave up the plan.  We were waiting for

10     Aksentijevic.  Aksentijevic came back and told us - and I was there too

11     when he said this - that Ganic had refused the plan.  Ganic wanted to see

12     his first request acknowledged and complied with.  He said, "Kukanjac has

13     no place being there.  You're all captives, prisoners, of the BH

14     Presidency.  Unless you do what we ask, we'll change tack in terms of

15     what we do with you."

16             Kukanjac interrupted his talks with Ganic and got in touch with

17     Alija Izetbegovic.  He resumed their previous conversation and

18     Izetbegovic accepted all of his requests.  He allowed 20 trucks to leave

19     Lukavica and be on their way to the 2nd Military District command

20     building.  We wanted to use these trucks to drive back to Lukavica.  At

21     his own initiative he came to see Kukanjac and offered verbal guarantees

22     to the fact that the column would be allowed to pass through.

23        Q.   When you say "he," you mean Izetbegovic?

24        A.   Yes, Izetbegovic said, "My presence here guarantees that no one

25     would be attacked.  I have here with me the responsible commander who's

Page 12572

 1     offering the same guarantees."

 2        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Was anyone from UNPROFOR there at the

 3     time?

 4        A.   Yes, General MacKenzie as well as those people from the

 5     international community, Mr. Santos as far as I remember.

 6             Kukanjac had ordered for the JNA to not fire at the column under

 7     any circumstances, even if we ourselves were to come under attack.

 8     Pursuant to the terms of the agreement, the column was headed by

 9     MacKenzie followed by an APC holding Kukanjac and Izetbegovic.  In the

10     third APC there was Izetbegovic's army commander.  The convoy headed out.

11     They were intercepted in Dobrovoljacka Street and were attacked from all

12     sides.  I was in the medical vehicle.

13        Q.   Just a minute.  In which vehicle were you in terms of the

14     sequence?

15        A.   I think it was vehicle number 11 or possibly number 10 if you

16     look at the entire convoy.

17        Q.   How many men in your vehicle?

18        A.   Eight, eight persons.

19        Q.   What happened next?

20        A.   We were stopped and the attackers opened all of the doors.  They

21     held us at gunpoint and took away our personal weapons.  I saw them

22     driving the JNA men out of those vehicles behind us.  They were taking

23     away their weapons, taking away some of their clothes, hitting them with

24     rifle-butts, knocking them onto the ground, and pressing their necks down

25     with their boots, as well as firing shots.  They ordered us to leave the

Page 12573

 1     medical vehicle and go out, which I refused.

 2             Another group arrived and one of those new men opened a burst of

 3     gun-fire from automatic rifle at Colonel Miro Sokic, an ethnic Croat who

 4     was seated to my right.  The brain and the blood from his skull

 5     splattered all over my face.  It was very difficult for me to cope with

 6     this stress.  At the same time, there were other bursts of gun-fire

 7     killing Colonel Budimir Radulovic, who was on the front seat of that

 8     vehicle right next to the driver.

 9             I ordered the driver to go to the military hospital.  We were off

10     heading towards the head of the convoy.  I saw General MacKenzie standing

11     next to the second APC, just standing there, and there was this APC in

12     which there were Izetbegovic and General Kukanjac.  I saw Colonel

13     Jovo Divjak right there, who was giving orders to the effect, "Stop

14     shooting, stop shooting."  I overheard conversations, but all I remember

15     is --

16        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Who was Colonel Jovo Divjak at the time?

17        A.   Jovo Divjak was a JNA colonel assigned to the BH

18     Territorial Defence.  In 1991, because of a campaign of secretly arming a

19     company of the HVO in the village of Doglodi, near Sarajevo, he was

20     sentenced to eight months in prison by the military court in Sarajevo.

21     We were awaiting a sentence from the supreme military court in Belgrade.

22        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting, but what was Jovo Divjak's position

23     at the time, the time of the incident?

24        A.   I read his accounts later in the media.  He suggested that he was

25     deputy commander of the TO staff of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 12574

 1        Q.   Fine.  What happened then?

 2        A.   We proceeded in our medical vehicle with no weapons and carrying

 3     some dead bodies.  We proceeded on to the military hospital.  At the

 4     crossroads between Skenderija and the hygiene institute, we were caught

 5     in a cross-fire from the right, the direction the vehicles were moving,

 6     the mosque area; and on the left there was the book shop neighbourhood.

 7     There was a cross-fire.  I bent down near the floor.  Fortunately, they

 8     missed the driver and we still managed to cross the crossroads and get

 9     past it quite quickly.

10             We got closer to the hospital, got through the BH army blockade,

11     and once we were inside we concluded that along the road between that

12     place and the military hospital, when I stood back up I realised that a

13     lady who was with the medical unit, a Muslim called Nurmela Sukro, was

14     shot right through her head.  In the middle of her forehead there was a

15     bullet wound, and back at the military hospital they ascertained that

16     Colonel Miro Sokic had also been killed as well as Colonel

17     Budimir Radulovic and this lady, Nurmela Sukro.  Seriously wounded, seven

18     shots to the back.  A private, lance corporal, Dragan Kovacevic,

19     fortunately he was wearing -- he was wearing a flak jacket.  And I myself

20     had received a shot to the shoulder.  I was wounded as well.

21        Q.   General, I know it's very unpleasant for you to recount all these

22     things.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's have another document from the

24     65 ter list, 00654D.

25        Q.   General, I showed you this document in our proofing session.

Page 12575

 1     You've already mentioned a number of names during the course of your

 2     testimony.  You don't have to mention them again.  You can just tell us

 3     whether you know that some other people on this list were killed on the

 4     same day, on the 3rd of May, 1992.

 5        A.   In addition to the people that I mentioned, I know that

 6     Colonel Gradimir Petrovic, who was the chief of the technical service in

 7     the command of the 2nd Military District, he replaced me; and

 8     Colonel Bosko Mihajlovic were also killed on the asphalt road.  They kept

 9     their boots on their necks, they stripped them to their underwear, and

10     then they shot them in the back of the head.  And I know some other

11     people from the list.

12        Q.   According to what you knew at the time and what you learned

13     later, would the number of 29 persons on the list reflect the number of

14     those who were killed on that occasion?

15        A.   I know that there were 42 members of the JNA who were killed on

16     the 2nd and 3rd of May in Sarajevo.  That's the list that I'm familiar

17     with.

18        Q.   How many were captured during those incidents, how many members

19     of the JNA?

20        A.   As far as I can remember according to the data that I

21     subsequently saw, about 160 or 190, I can't remember exactly, were

22     captured or taken prisoners.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

24     please be admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.

25             MR. HARMON:  No objection.

Page 12576

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             The document is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given

 3     an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D401.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, after the 2nd of May, how long did you remain in

 9     the territory of the city of Sarajevo?

10        A.   From the 3rd of May, 1992, until the 8th of May, 1992, I was in

11     the military hospital in Sarajevo.  On the 8th of May I was discharged

12     from the military hospital in Sarajevo and I joined a column headed by

13     General MacKenzie.  That column transported the wounded from the

14     Kosevo Hospital as well as those heavily wounded who had been

15     hospitalised in the Sarajevo military hospital.  Since I knew MacKenzie

16     from before and since General Kukanjac had told him to help me get out of

17     the military hospital, I joined the convoy and I did leave Sarajevo with

18     the convoy and I ended up in Lukavica.

19        Q.   How long did you stay in Lukavica, do you know the date or do you

20     know the approximate date when you left Lukavica?

21        A.   From Lukavica I phoned my family in the apartment in Sarajevo,

22     and I learned that that family was in a private camp.  I learned that on

23     several occasions two MPs of the BH army had come to the apartment, they

24     had searched the apartment, they had ill-treated the --

25             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I'm going to object to the

Page 12577

 1     witness giving that answer.  The question is very simple.

 2             "How long did you stay in Lukavica, do you know the date or do

 3     you know the approximate date when you left ..."

 4             And now we're digressing into other elements that are not part of

 5     this question.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I accept the objection and I will

 8     instruct the witness.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I will be asking you about different things that

10     we discussed during the proofing session, but now I would kindly ask you

11     to answer my question.

12        A.   Okay.

13        Q.   The question was:  How long did you stay in Lukavica?

14        A.   In Lukavica and occasionally at Pale and also occasionally at the

15     Main Staff which had been set up, I stayed there and my main goal --

16        Q.   Please, we'll come to that.  Just tell me, please, how long did

17     you stay in Lukavica, up to what date?  That was my question.  And I will

18     have other questions as well.

19        A.   Sometime up to the end of May.

20        Q.   Okay.  While you were in the territory of the city of Sarajevo

21     and in the general territory - and you mentioned Pale and as far as I can

22     see you also mentioned the base of the Main Staff which is

23     Han Pijesak - and we will come to that, we will -- did you stay in the

24     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina for some time and for how long?

25        A.   Yes, I stayed until the end of August 1992.

Page 12578

 1        Q.   What was the reason?  Why did you stay in the territory?

 2        A.   The main reason was to try and save my family from the apartment

 3     in Sarajevo where they were held captives.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now tell me, what information do you have?  Who was there?

 5     What was their status?  Who were your family members at the time in

 6     Sarajevo?

 7        A.   My wife and my 16-year-old daughter.

 8        Q.   And what conditions did they live in at the time?

 9        A.   The first problem was that around the building shells fell very

10     often, and together with the other residents of the building they had to

11     go to a private camp in the basement.  The second problem was that they

12     didn't have any food.  The situation was very difficult.  They didn't

13     have food or water.  On several occasions, two MPs of the BiH army

14     military police came.  They introduced themselves as policemen, and they

15     allegedly told them, "Madam, you're a Serb, your husband is a

16     Serb Chetnik, we can do with you whatever we want and we will not be held

17     accountable for that."

18             They wanted to take my daughter to a brothel in the atomic

19     shelter in the same neighbourhood, and then they started -- both started

20     screaming and shouting.  And in the basement there was a Muslim lady who

21     resided there and she would always try to prevent that from happening,

22     and she would tell those two police officers that I, as their husband and

23     father, was a good man.  And she said, "I can't let the family of such a

24     good man come to any harm."  And that woman's husband worked in the

25     institution that I -- that was under my command.

Page 12579

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- what does the acronym "MP" mean?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You mentioned the military police of the BiH army.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter used the acronym "MP," military

 5     police.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I suppose that your family told you that those were the men who

 8     came knocking on their door; right?

 9        A.   I said that there were always two of them, two men in uniforms.

10     And they introduced themselves and they said, "Madam, we are the BiH army

11     police."

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe the time is

14     right for our next break unless you need any further clarifications of

15     the issue that you raised, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

17             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.  Court

18     adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the Trial Chamber doesn't want to

22     interfere with your examination, but it is nonetheless concerned about

23     where we are going with all these questions because they don't seem to

24     be --

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that from this

Page 12580

 1     moment on we are going straight into the matter of our case; however,

 2     what we have been discussing so far is also relevant for our Defence case

 3     and we wanted to hear about this episode from the witness because it's

 4     very important for the position of the Defence.  In any case, we are now

 5     moving on to the matters which go straight into the heart of the Defence

 6     case and the indictment.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, my question is this:  In the following period, the

10     period after that, did you again meet with General Kukanjac?  That's my

11     first question and then I'll have a few more after that.

12        A.   Yes, I saw him once -- or rather, twice.  I apologise.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just -- when you say "following that

14     period," can you give us a time-span what you are talking about.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise.  I wanted to talk

16     about the period when the General was in Lukavica, once he was discharged

17     from the military hospital in May 1992.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the first time I met

19     General Kukanjac on the 19th or 20th of May, 1992.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Just a moment, yes.

22        A.   And the second time, on the 3rd of May, 1993, when he organised

23     the meeting of us who survived from the volunteers, and that meeting was

24     organised in Belgrade, from Dobrovoljacka Street actually.

25        Q.   I'm interested in the first meeting.  We heard the Army of

Page 12581

 1     Republika Srpska was established, and I'm now asking you about the

 2     19th of May.  How do you remember the 19th of May, 1992?

 3        A.   Because I learnt at the time that an order had been issued about

 4     the establishment of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro, and in that order

 5     it said that all members of the former JNA who were born in the territory

 6     of Serbia and Montenegro were supposed to join the Army of Yugoslavia,

 7     which was then known as the SRY.

 8        Q.   I believe that you misspoke on page 59, line 9, when you said

 9     that the Army of Serbia and Montenegro was established.

10        A.   Yes, I misspoke and I apologise for that.  At that time a

11     possibility was given to everybody, to all members of the JNA - and that

12     was also an order for all members of the JNA who were under the command

13     of the 2nd Military District - to leave the territory of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina and join the Army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15        Q.   Was somebody else with Mr. Kukanjac when you saw him on the

16     18th of May?

17        A.   Kukanjac came in a helicopter and General Mladic came with him in

18     the same helicopter.

19        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Did you talk to him on that occasion; if

20     you did, what was the topic of your conversation?

21        A.   We entered a room, or rather, an office in the 4th Corps command

22     in Lukavica.  There were General Kukanjac, General Mladic,

23     Colonel Gagovic, and myself there.

24        Q.   What was Colonel Gagovic's position at the time?

25        A.   He was the assistant commander for logistics in the 4th Corps.

Page 12582

 1     General Kukanjac wanted to see me, and when he saw me, when he saw that I

 2     was alive and well, albeit slightly wounded, he cried which was rather

 3     strange given the type of commander that he was.  However, he was really

 4     glad and at the same time he was sorry about all these men who had been

 5     killed.  And he said that.  He said that he had been cheated that the

 6     authorities --

 7             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I'm going to object

 8     again --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

10             MR. HARMON:  The question that was asked to the witness was:

11     What was Colonel Gagovic's position at the time, and again we seem to be

12     expanding into a much broader answer than the question calls for.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  My previous question

15     was, that is on page 59, line 24, I asked about the topic of their

16     conversation when he saw him.  And I also had a subquestion about

17     Colonel Gagovic, who he was, he was the fourth member in that

18     conversation, and I believe that my questions follow a logical sequence

19     and that the witness is answering accordingly.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the question that caused Mr. Harmon to

21     rise is the question that said:

22             "What was Colonel Gagovic's position at the time?"

23             It was not the question about -- sorry, I'm going to have to --

24     it was not the question about:  "Did you talk to him on that occasion; if

25     you did, what was the topic of your conversation?

Page 12583

 1             In answer to that question he said:

 2             "We entered a room, or rather, an office in the 4th Corps command

 3     in Lukavica.  There were Kukanjac, General Mladic, Colonel Gagovic, and

 4     myself..."  At that point you should have insisted that he answer your

 5     question:  What did you talk about?  He must answer that question before

 6     you then next ask the next question.  Because now if he's going to answer

 7     this question after you've asked the next question, then we get lost.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, however, wouldn't it be

 9     even more confusing for you if you didn't know who Gagovic was?  I just

10     wanted to clarify who the fourth member in the conversation was.  Gagovic

11     was mentioned and that's why I had that subquestion as --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then you must organise your questions in your mind

13     in that manner.  You are going to ask him who Gagovic was, and then after

14     asking him that, I'm going to ask him what they talked about.  Otherwise,

15     if he's now going to tell us who Gagovic was when he's supposed to be

16     telling us what they talked about, then that causes confusion.  And it's

17     important -- I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic, it's very important, one, to listen to

18     yourself and listen to your own questions; and listen clearly to the

19     answer from the witness and check whether he's answering your question.

20     And if he's not, insist on getting the answer.  It's just so important

21     for us to follow.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am not trying to create even more

23     confusion --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know you're not.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- and I had reasons for that

Page 12584

 1     additional question, and I believe that I'm following the sequence of

 2     what I wanted to ask the witness.  But let's try and be as economical and

 3     as up to the point as we possibly can.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  You may try that

 5     again.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, what was the subject of that conversation with

 8     Kukanjac, Mladic, and Gagovic?

 9        A.   General Kukanjac briefly told us about the massacre at

10     Dobrovoljacka Street.  General Mladic offered me the post of commander of

11     the 4th Corps, replacing General Djurdjevac who was leaving that position

12     because he originally hailed from Montenegro.

13        Q.   Did Mladic tell you what would become of the 4th Corps?

14        A.   Not at the time.  It was only about this vacancy created by the

15     corps commander leaving his position.

16        Q.   Were you familiar with General Mladic's position at the time?

17     What was his position?

18        A.   Yes.  I knew from the media - and he said so himself - he said

19     that the VRS had been established and that he had been appointed

20     commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  He said he had the power to

21     appoint me to an appropriate position.

22        Q.   When you say "an appropriate position," given the nature of his

23     speech and given the nature of his position in the VRS, what exactly was

24     the position you thought he was alluding to and in which army?

25        A.   He offered me the post of commander of the 4th Corps of the JNA,

Page 12585

 1     which in the meantime had been renamed and was now called the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  When this corps became part of the VRS, it got

 3     its new name and went by that name for the rest of the war, the

 4     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  He offered me the post of commander of the

 5     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 6        Q.   What was your reply?

 7        A.   I turned the offer down and I explained my refusal.  I said I was

 8     unable to take up any duty in any army until I was able to evacuate my

 9     family from Sarajevo, and Sarajevo at the time was under siege.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarity here.  This position that

11     he offered you in the 4th Corps of the JNA you say is the same thing as

12     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  So he was offering you that post.  Okay.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Before August, when your family was eventually able to leave

16     Sarajevo, did you travel to Belgrade -- or rather, let's do it this way.

17     What did your information at the time suggest regarding the position of

18     former JNA officers who hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina in relation to

19     this creation of a new army?

20        A.   I had the same information that was available and known to all

21     JNA officers, all JNA members, leaving the territory of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina as well as those who were staying.  The most important

23     information was this:  All JNA members originally hailing from

24     BH territory, as well as volunteers who stay on in the VRS and are

25     members of the former JNA, would have their social status arranged as

Page 12586

 1     planned and envisaged by the political leaders on the one hand of the

 2     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the leadership of the former

 3     Presidency of the SFRY.  That the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was the

 4     legal heir to the former JNA and on those grounds and pursuant to that

 5     agreement and contract between countries, a solution was drawn up for all

 6     members of the former JNA who remained in the VRS, to have their salaries

 7     guaranteed as well as their pension and health benefits and years of

 8     service, that would be honoured in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 9     under the authority of the Supreme Defence Council and the federal

10     government.

11        Q.   You say all former members of the JNA.  Was this about all of

12     them or about only a specific category of former JNA members?

13        A.   Officers and NCOs, those two categories alone.

14        Q.   You also say that an agreement was drawn up.  You mention the

15     leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  When you say

16     "agreement," do you know if they actually agreed this with anyone or was

17     that their call and their decision and no one else's?  What does your

18     information suggest, sir?

19        A.   As far as I know, the agreement involved the leaders of

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina, above all Alija Izetbegovic, because that

21     agreement was meant to regulate or to settle the status of officers and

22     NCOs from the former JNA, I mean those who joined the BH army on the one

23     hand and the HVO on the other.  The agreement, as far as I know, was

24     reached between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

25     then-internationally recognised state of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The

Page 12587

 1     agreement was co-signed by the representatives of the authorities

 2     belonging to all the three peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   What became of the former members, officers, and NCOs of the JNA

 4     who joined the BH army or the HVO?

 5        A.   Pursuant to that agreement, they were free to choose whether they

 6     would be joining the VJ and receiving their salaries there, the

 7     alternative being to stay with the BH army and receive their salaries

 8     from Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the following proviso.  Those persons

 9     who have reached retirement age and sufficient years of service,

10     regardless of whether they were Muslims or Croats but were members of the

11     JNA, were now entitled to collect their pensions from Yugoslavia or

12     indeed to give it up and collect their pensions from Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina.  That is why the agreement was reached at the level of the

14     two countries involved.

15        Q.   Did you actually see this agreement?  Where do you get your

16     information on the agreement from?

17        A.   I did not myself read the actual agreement.  Nevertheless,

18     whenever this subject was raised at the Supreme Command of

19     Republika Srpska meeting, this agreement was always invoked.

20        Q.   We'll discuss the Supreme Command of Republika Srpska later on.

21     I suppose you're saying this in relation to the time that you were a

22     member of the Supreme Command.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber,

23     just to make sure we can follow what you're saying, what was the

24     time-period you were talking about?  When were you a member of the

25     Supreme Command of Republika Srpska?

Page 12588

 1        A.   Having been appointed defence minister, I automatically became a

 2     member of the Supreme Command by virtue of my position.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We'll discuss that later at quite some length.  Do

 4     you know whether there was anything in the media or elsewhere about the

 5     leadership of Republika Srpska calling on former JNA officers who

 6     originally hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina to join the VRS?

 7        A.   Yes, I know about that.

 8        Q.   What about the period before you were able to get your family out

 9     of Sarajevo, did you travel to Belgrade between August 1992 and May 1992

10     [as interpreted]?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   I've probably managed to mix things up a little.  Can you please

13     tell us, General, where did you go and who did you see and when did that

14     occur?

15        A.   I got in touch with General Sljivic, chief of the technical

16     administration of the SSM in Belgrade.

17        Q.   When was that?

18        A.   I think it was in June 1992, sometime in June.

19        Q.   Very well.

20        A.   Having learned about my fate, he offered me a post implying the

21     rank of general in the VJ specifically to be located in Podgorica,

22     Podgorica garrison.  I refused and explained that I was unable to accept

23     any appointment anywhere at all, whatever the offer.  The first thing I

24     had to make sure was my family was safely out of Sarajevo because they

25     were trapped there.

Page 12589

 1        Q.   Just a minute, please.  When did your family finally make it out

 2     of Sarajevo?  We don't need to get the date right, but roughly speaking.

 3        A.   I think it was the 9th of July, or possibly the 9th of August,

 4     1992.

 5        Q.   What happened after that -- or rather, can you tell us first

 6     where you put your family up for the rest of the war?

 7        A.   I put them up with friends who were in Pale.  They spent some

 8     time on my own property, which could not be used for actually living

 9     there through the winter.  I managed to get the appropriate documents for

10     my daughter to be able to continue her education over in Belgrade.

11     Sometime in late August I took my family to Belgrade and put them up with

12     my sister and her husband in Belgrade at --

13        Q.   In Belgrade, but were they there throughout the war?

14        A.   Mostly in Belgrade.  Later on my wife also spent some time with

15     me in Pale, during the war and after.

16        Q.   General, what became of your flat in Sarajevo, very briefly,

17     please?

18        A.   It was a flat that I owned.  It had been bought.  There was a

19     valid contract certified by a court.  The procedure was perfectly fair.

20     The flat has not been returned to me to this very day.

21        Q.   Very well.  Did you see General Mladic again after that?

22        A.   Yes.  I saw Mladic on several occasions.  I pleaded with him to

23     help me get my family out of Sarajevo.  In that respect, there was

24     nothing he could do for me or at least that's what he said.

25     Nevertheless, he did ask me to take up a post to be determined by him at

Page 12590

 1     the Main Staff of the VRS, saying this would be something to do with

 2     logistics and that I would be working with General Djukic.  Again, I

 3     refused until I was able to make sure my family was safe.  He then went

 4     on to tell me -- each and every time he told me, in fact, that he would

 5     ask for me not to be appointed to the VJ but to the VRS instead.

 6        Q.   And who was he going to address with that regard?  Who was he

 7     going to ask for that?

 8        A.   I don't know who he meant, but I suppose that he meant the

 9     supreme council -- Supreme Defence Council, which was in charge of such

10     matters, of adopting the decision for me as well as for all those who had

11     been appointed to the Main Staff and the Army of Republika Srpska up to

12     then, the decision on my status, that is.

13        Q.   Did you know at the time what the status of those officers in the

14     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   How was their status regulated, can you tell us?

17        A.   General Mladic told me personally -- on several occasions he

18     explained that to me.  He told me that my status would be dealt with in

19     Yugoslavia, just like mine is, Milovanovic's, Gvero's, Djukic's and

20     others.  And he explained that inter-state agreement in quite some

21     detail.  He had read it in Belgrade while he was with

22     President Milosevic's office and other leaders of the then-Yugoslavia.

23     He said that that was a solution for them and that it would also be for

24     me if we all accepted to be paid from Yugoslavia to have our social

25     security and medical benefits in Yugoslavia, that our pensionable years

Page 12591

 1     of service are counted in Yugoslavia.  And all that time we would be

 2     members of the Army of Republika Srpska, exclusively of that army and

 3     nobody else.

 4        Q.   You just mentioned that you were offered to be a member of the

 5     logistics sector with General Djukic.  Did you know General Djukic from

 6     before?

 7        A.   I didn't know him well.  He was in Belgrade and he attended a few

 8     professional seminars and meetings, and that's when I saw him and had a

 9     few occasions to talk to him.

10        Q.   Did Mladic tell you why he kept on insisting on you joining the

11     VRS?

12        A.   Yes, he did tell me.

13        Q.   Can you share that with us?

14        A.   When members of the former JNA joined the VJ, I was the only

15     logistics man who hailed from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina who

16     was familiar with the entire infrastructure to the very last detail,

17     since I had worked in the area for 20 years before then.  If

18     General Djukic, his logistics assistant, had arrived from Belgrade, if

19     he -- actually, he said that Djukic arrived from Belgrade and he did not

20     know anything about the infrastructure, the depots, the units, he didn't

21     know anything and everything was completely new, both for him and for

22     everybody else; and I, on the other hand, was familiar with everything,

23     not only familiar but I knew it like the back of my hand.

24        Q.   Okay.  Did there come a time when you joined and when you became

25     a member of the VRS?

Page 12592

 1        A.   I wrote to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and in

 2     my letter I stated my requests and I said I will take up a position in

 3     the Main Staff of the VRS on a condition that my status was dealt with in

 4     Yugoslavia, just like it was for the rest of the officers.

 5        Q.   Did you get in touch with anybody from the personnel

 6     administration of the Army of Yugoslavia at the time?

 7        A.   No, I did not get in touch with anybody before I received an

 8     answer to my written request.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Okay.  Could you please tell us about that answer,

10     when did you receive it and what the answer was.

11        A.   Mladic told me that my request was accepted and that my status

12     would be resolved in Yugoslavia, and based on my letter of acceptance he

13     issued an order on my appointment as a member of the Main Staff of the

14     VRS.  My position was not defined at the time; however, I worked in the

15     logistics sector with General Djukic and I considered myself a desk

16     officer at the time.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back to the previous question.  After you

18     received that information from Mladic, did you get in touch with somebody

19     from the Army of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Through the personnel administration of the Main Staff of the

21     VRS, I was asked to go and sign a document in the personnel

22     administration, a document which was my acceptance of my status being

23     arranged in the Army of Yugoslavia, and I did that.

24        Q.   Let's try and avoid any confusion.  I asked you whether you got

25     in touch with anybody from the Army of Yugoslavia, and you said that

Page 12593

 1     through the personnel administration of the VRS you got in touch with the

 2     personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia.  Did I understand

 3     your question [as interpreted] properly?

 4        A.   Yes, you did.  I personally never got in touch with the personnel

 5     administration or the Army of Yugoslavia with regard to my status.  That

 6     was done on my behalf by General Mladic.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8        A.   And when that status was finally resolved, the personnel

 9     administration of the Main Staff of the VRS informed me that I should go

10     to the personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia to sign a

11     document which was the decision on my status in Yugoslavia.

12        Q.   General, as we heard at the beginning of your testimony, you hail

13     from Croatia; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know what happened to the former VJ -- JNA officers who

16     hailed from Croatia, in respect of what you have just told us about

17     Bosnia?

18        A.   Again, General Mladic provided me with the details of that.  When

19     he tried to persuade me to stay, or rather, join the Army of

20     Republika Srpska, he then told me that the position of the leadership of

21     Yugoslavia was for all members of the JNA who hailed from Croatia should

22     join the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina; and all those who were born on

23     the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina had to join the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.

25             Based on their place of birth, they were supposed to participate

Page 12594

 1     in the defence system and the defence of their territories, peoples,

 2     houses, friends, and relatives.  I was told that irrespective of my

 3     status being arranged in Yugoslavia, I could only be a member of the VRS

 4     or of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.  And based on those two

 5     offers, I had a long thought and finally I made a decision based on the

 6     elements that I've already shared with you.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell us, you were faced with two options.  How

 8     did you finally decide to respond to Ratko Mladic's invitation, to

 9     respond positively to that invitation?

10        A.   There were a few elements that went into that.  First of all, I

11     wanted to remain a career officer.  I wanted to remain with the Army of

12     Republika Srpska because I knew everything very well, like the back of my

13     hand.  Wherever I went elsewhere, everything would be new, and it was

14     very uncertain how I would fare in the war-struck areas elsewhere in

15     other positions and discharging other duties.

16             The second reason was purely humane and patriotic, the

17     relationship that I had and my officers' honour that compelled me to stay

18     with the people that I belonged to.  And that's why I had to participate

19     together with them with the system of defence and to help them defend

20     themselves in the territory where they were threatened.  I couldn't allow

21     myself to leave to go to Yugoslavia and to become a deserter and

22     perceived as such by my relatives, friends, and family.

23             I had my old parents residing in the territory of Croatia.  They

24     were living alone, threatened by the war, and I didn't think it would be

25     humane for me to leave them, that it was my duty and obligation to look

Page 12595

 1     after them and to participate in their defence and a rescue operation, if

 2     need be, of both of them and the property that was very valuable.  I had

 3     property in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, also relatively valuable.

 4     That was my private property.  And I realised that I would lose all that

 5     unless I stayed in the territory, unless I protected all that with my own

 6     presence there.

 7             All of these elements made me join the Army of Republika Srpska

 8     or the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina, if need be, and when I wanted to

 9     do so.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And which one did you join, if any at all?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just said on two different

13     occasions, I accepted a position in the Army of Republika Srpska, in the

14     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, whose commander was

15     General Mladic; and I was subordinated to General Djukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   General, what duties did you discharge in the Main Staff in the

18     logistics sector?  I suppose that you joined the logistics sector as soon

19     as you said that you were subordinated to Djukic?

20        A.   At that time we had a major task to establish the units and

21     institutions of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I was appointed as a

22     member of the commission of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

23     Srpska headed by an operative, Colonel Ilic.  An order to establish that

24     commission which also defined the task of that commission had been signed

25     by General Mladic.

Page 12596

 1        Q.   Just a moment, please.

 2             So what was the task of that commission?

 3        A.   The task of that commission was inspect all the units and

 4     institutions of the Army of Republika Srpska in the entire territory,

 5     also to assist with the establishment of units.  I, as a logistics man,

 6     and the others were tasked with preventing paramilitaries from existing

 7     within the units of the Army of Republika Srpska, any paramilitaries.

 8        Q.   How was logistics organised in the Army of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   At first there were different ways to do that and there were a

10     lot of problems.  Later on some order was installed; however, in

11     principle every brigade had its own logistics support and its own

12     reserves.  Every corps had its own logistics support unit and its own

13     reserves.  The Main Staff of the VRS had under its command logistics

14     bases and repair and overhaul institutions which it commanded directly.

15        Q.   How many logistics bases of the VRS army there were?

16        A.   As far as I can remember, there were three, perhaps four, but I

17     would say that there were three rather than four.

18        Q.   And what about the 774th Logistics Base of the JNA, what happened

19     to it, the one that had existed up to the 1990s, the beginning of the

20     1990s?  Okay, let's not pin-point a date.  What happened to the base?

21        A.   When the Army of Republika Srpska was established - and I believe

22     that that was on the 12th of May, 1992 - the Main Staff renamed that

23     logistics base and its new name was the 27th Logistics Base; and its

24     command was in Sokolac.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's be very precise.  The 27th Logistics Base of what

Page 12597

 1     army?

 2        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   And now, could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what does

 4     it mean when you say that the three or four logistics bases were -- let's

 5     say, 27th Logistics Base were subordinated to the Main Staff, what does

 6     that mean?

 7        A.   Let's just correct your first question.  There was a logistics

 8     base in Banja Luka, there was one in Bijeljina, the 30th was in Bileca,

 9     and the 27th was in Sokolac.  In other words, there were four logistics

10     bases, and now can you repeat your last question.

11        Q.   You've just told us that they were subordinated to the

12     Main Staff.  Now we have heard that there were definitely four of them.

13     What does it mean when you say that they were subordinated to the

14     Main Staff?  What does it mean?  Who could come to a logistics base and

15     take anything from any of them?  A very simple question.

16        A.   Pursuant to the rules and regulations as well as the orders and

17     the Law on the Army, only the Main Staff could issue an order for any of

18     the logistics bases to issue from their depots some materiel or equipment

19     to any of the units of the Army of Republika Srpska or anybody else for

20     that matter.  And the same applied to the receipt of such materiel and

21     equipment in the depots of the logistics bases.

22        Q.   Now you've just put us in the picture, as it were, as to how this

23     equipment was distributed from brigade level all the way up to the

24     Main Staff.  I'll now go back to the brigade that you mentioned a while

25     ago.  When you toured those units at the time, what did you observe as

Page 12598

 1     far as your own sector, logistics, was concerned?

 2        A.   I observed several important things, important for me and

 3     important for the Main Staff.  Firstly, most battalion- and brigade-level

 4     were part of the JNA and became part of the JNA as TO units belonging to

 5     Serb areas.

 6        Q.   You said "became part of the JNA," I think that was a mistake.

 7        A.   Yes, I apologise.  Became part of the VRS.  That's what I meant

 8     to say.  As members of the Serb TO and as volunteer units who had been

 9     classified up until that point in time as volunteers.  Nevertheless, they

10     all agreed to sport VRS insignia and to carry out the orders given by

11     their superior officers in the chain of command of the VRS.

12             As for them having their own depots full of ammunition, weapons,

13     and military equipment, most of all those weapons and equipment had been

14     taken or captured from the JNA when they withdrew from

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Or else depots under the control of the Serb side

16     were attacked, taken, all of the equipment and weapons being seized.

17     That was -- there was a dramatic example of that in Rudo, in Visegrad, in

18     Ustikolina, Manje [phoen], Vardiste, and for the most part Foca.

19             Next, they didn't allow for those weapons and the reserves to be

20     duly registered.  I myself in a technical sense inspected all of the rear

21     units.  They were poorly qualified.  They didn't know how to keep their

22     files or records.  They had no records at all.  What that amounted to in

23     their case was making notes in common notebooks, but only what the local

24     commander allowed them to actually list.  Whatever he considered to be

25     his own reserve he would refuse to have recorded or registered.

Page 12599

 1        Q.   When you say "whatever he considered to be his own reserve," can

 2     you please elaborate on that?

 3        A.   In such cases I would always step in and ask commanders to write

 4     down every single bullet, every single piece of equipment, and have it

 5     recorded and registered and categorised.  And he said, "No way.  I was

 6     the one who got this, I was the one who seized this, and there's no one

 7     who can take it away from me whatever you think you can do about it."

 8        Q.   As far as the work of this commission is concerned, did you ever

 9     inform the Main Staff about these facts or whoever requested a report

10     from you?

11        A.   The first tour that I made took just over a month.  We drew up a

12     joint report.  In that report I provided a detailed description of all

13     these difficulties.  I also put forward the proposal that the commander

14     of the Main Staff of the VRS should use the chain of command to exercise

15     his power and issue appropriate orders, for everything to be listed and

16     everything to be recorded, also that the command system should be

17     observed from the Main Staff level to the lowliest unit in order to

18     prevent any interference by local authorities in terms of the command

19     system and the supply system.

20        Q.   Just a minute, please.  Can you please explain this, I'm looking

21     at something that I'm interested in, something you mentioned,

22     "interference by local authorities in ... the command system ..."

23             What exactly did you mean by that, what did you have in mind?

24        A.   The SDA local authorities -- or Serbian Democratic Party local

25     authorities wanted to establish absolute control over brigades that were

Page 12600

 1     established in their own municipal territories in every respect including

 2     the command system.

 3        Q.   These brigades now formally part of the VRS, are those the ones

 4     you have in mind?

 5        A.   Yes, they were part of the VRS and that's exactly what I have in

 6     mind.

 7        Q.   How did they want to go about establishing their authority over

 8     these units?

 9        A.   They wanted to be the ones to issue combat orders to these units

10     in terms of what each of the brigades would be defending or attacking,

11     seizing, and so on and so forth.

12        Q.   So did they actually manage to exert any influence over these

13     matters?

14        A.   Yes, to quite a considerable extent.

15        Q.   What did the Main Staff do about that?

16        A.   I know that Mladic issued some orders, but the approach they took

17     was a benevolent one.  Had it not been for the local authorities and

18     their assistance, they would not have been able to establish an army;

19     that is what they believed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Defence

21     Exhibit D50 for a moment.  Thank you.

22             This is a 1st Krajina Corps document, the 22nd of February [sic],

23     1993, signed by General Talic.  We'll wait up for the English to appear

24     on our screens.

25        Q.   General, this document speaks for itself, at least the first

Page 12601

 1     portion does.  Nevertheless, it's the third paragraph that I'm looking at

 2     and I would like to have your comment.  There is a reference there to

 3     donors in municipalities located in the area of the 1st Krajina Corps.

 4     What exactly is General Talic implying there?

 5        A.   This document is a faithful reflection of the situation.

 6     Commander General Talic requests that the Government of Republika Srpska

 7     or the Main Staff purchase these specified amounts of ammunition or else

 8     that he be allowed to gather funds from donors in order to wrap up this

 9     job as a whole.

10        Q.   All right.  What I want to know is this:  We're talking about the

11     local level and when we say "donors," who exactly were they and how could

12     they get funds for purchasing ammunition?

13        A.   The local-level authorities, such as municipal authorities, were

14     the most important and for the most part permanent donors to their local

15     units, normally brigade-level units.  In terms of the role of the

16     political authorities, donors were identified who in this case were

17     wealthy entrepreneurs.  The political authorities ordered them to trade

18     and purchase various kinds of goods for the purposes of the VRS, saying

19     that they would be remunerated.

20        Q.   We'll be addressing that at a later stage, but what I'm looking

21     at now is the local level.  General, are you familiar with the situation

22     concerning the influence of the local authorities over the units and

23     these local-level donations, so to speak?  This was the case in 1993, but

24     did that continue throughout the war?

25        A.   Yes, by all means.  Throughout the war, from the very start of

Page 12602

 1     the war and all the way up to the signing of the Dayton Agreement.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a P exhibit,

 3     P1067.

 4        Q.   This is a later document from 1995, but I just want to know about

 5     the procedure that we discussed a while ago when we spoke about the

 6     respective authorities and powers, who was in charge of what.  Can you

 7     please comment on that -- on this document in terms of procurement and

 8     how ammunition was supplied that came to be in certain depots.

 9        A.   This document reflects a procedure.  This was the official

10     procedure.  The VRS Main Staff orders its own subordinate bases,

11     specifically the 27th Logistics Base, to issue these types of ammunition

12     to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  At the same time, the Pretis Vogosca

13     company was supposed to be involved in this and issue certain types of

14     goods pursuant to this order.

15        Q.   In the delivery order there is a reference to the 27th Logistics

16     Base, and you say there were a total of four of those.  Do those bases

17     cover certain corps in a territorial sense?  For example, could the

18     Krajina Corps go to the 27th Logistics Base?  How exactly was that

19     organised?

20        A.   No, the logistics bases were not related to any specific corps.

21     All of the bases catered to all of the units in the VRS.  As a matter of

22     principle, though, the infrastructure of individual bases simply happened

23     to be wherever it was.  And if there was a corps nearby, they would

24     normally rely on that base.  Nevertheless, all of the bases had the same

25     commitment under the orders of the Main Staff, to issue goods or receive

Page 12603

 1     goods and equipment from any unit in the VRS.

 2        Q.   You see that there is a section of this document that is

 3     highlighted because someone found it relevant.  There is mention there of

 4     Pretis and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command being able to retrieve

 5     their ammunition directly from Pretis.  We'll talk about Pretis later on.

 6     Nevertheless, could the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps get their ammunition

 7     directly from Pretis without previously receiving authorisation from the

 8     Main Staff?

 9        A.   Yes, it could and that was one of the difficulties that I faced

10     in my work as minister.

11        Q.   And why is that?  Why was that a difficulty?

12        A.   Simply because sometimes General Mladic would go to Pretis.  He

13     would order the Pretis manager to cease all supplies to anyone at all,

14     also saying that production should continue only in relation to the unit

15     that he specified.  He would bring his security there and would often

16     threaten the manager that he would either be removed, replaced, or

17     liquidated.  He forced Pretis to produce ammunition for a particular

18     unit.

19             This practice was also employed by some local commanders of the

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  They knew that if a platoon went there or a

21     considerable number of armed soldiers led by a commander, they would

22     simply lay siege to the production line, wait for the eventual product,

23     they would simply take it, load it onto their vehicles, and be off.  This

24     kind of information was shared with me by the Pretis manager.  This was

25     the reason that we were never able to set up and maintain a production

Page 12604

 1     and financing as normal.  There was always someone who came along and

 2     took something away.

 3        Q.   I have probably come straight to the matter too soon, but let me

 4     ask you:  The purpose production industry Republika Srpska, who was it

 5     subordinated to?

 6        A.   All purpose industry companies were part of the ministry of the

 7     industry and the Government of Republika Srpska as state companies.  The

 8     Ministry of Defence had the authority and possibility to commission works

 9     from such companies and order goods required by the Army of Republika

10     Srpska, including ammunition.  But that was based on production contracts

11     and those services had to be paid.

12        Q.   And let's come back to the work of your commission and let's

13     round the topic off.  When you inspected all of those units, what

14     impression did you gain about the equality of the distribution of the

15     ammunition among the units of Republika Srpska?  Did everybody have the

16     same or were there any differences?

17        A.   At the local level, the distribution was even, whereas at high

18     levels, at the levels of -- level of brigades and corps, the distribution

19     was not even; some had more and some had much less and some had even too

20     much, far too much.  The inner command of the Main Staff of the VRS

21     considered that report, General Mladic, General Milovanovic, and

22     General Djukic primarily, and they decided who to take the surplus from

23     and who to give it to.  They were the ones who were in charge of the

24     distribution, and it was General Djukic who then told me or issued me

25     orders to draft documents together with my service, to draft orders and

Page 12605

 1     instructions that would follow the same line as the previous ones.  Those

 2     orders were signed either by Mladic or General Milovanovic.  And for some

 3     equipment such orders could be signed also by General Djukic.  And then

 4     the equipment and materiel was distributed among the units.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is the time,

 7     Your Honour, to finish today's sitting.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

 9             Mr. Kovacevic, we are not able to finish with you today.  You'll

10     have to come back tomorrow, but while you are out and not in court, until

11     you finish testifying, just to warn you, you are not allowed to discuss

12     the case with anybody.  Okay.

13             And we sit tomorrow in the morning at 9.00, same courtroom.

14     Court adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

17                           July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.