Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12686

 1                           Wednesday, 14 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.29 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we please have appearances for the day.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

14     Good morning everyone in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon and

15     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  On behalf of

19     Mr. Perisic today, Tina Drolec, Alex Fielding and Novak Lukic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             Good morning to you, Mr. Kovacevic.  Just to remind you that you

22     are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

23     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

24     truth.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 12687

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kovacevic.  Before I pick up where I left off

 7     yesterday, and we were talking about fuel, there is an additional

 8     question I would like to ask you in relation to something that we were

 9     talking about yesterday.  You were answering questions yesterday in

10     relation to the personnel structure of the VRS.  You explained that some

11     of the officers and NCOs of the VRS were actually the former active-duty

12     JNA officers who grew up around those parts and who were now joining this

13     new army.  You remember talking about that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you have any information at the time as to what became of

16     active-duty members of the JNA before the war, Croats, Macedonians,

17     Slovenians, Muslims, were they now joining these newly established armies

18     such as these men that we referred to awhile ago were now joining the

19     VRS?

20        A.   What I know is that as early as during the actual clashes between

21     the JNA and the armed forces in Croatia, there was an interstate

22     agreement allowing for the possibility that the Croats, ethnic Croats,

23     who were then in Croatian territory were entitled to draw their pension

24     from the then-Yugoslavia, which at that point was still the SFRY, and

25     draw their pension from the JNA, regardless of whether they were in fact

Page 12688

 1     members of the JNA or whether for a brief while perhaps they were members

 2     of the Croatian army.

 3             Something similar occurred in May 1992, when the decision was

 4     taken for the JNA to withdraw from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Ethnic Croats

 5     and Muslims, or at least those who were for awhile with the HVO or the

 6     armies of the BH TO could now --

 7        Q.   Perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes here.  I'm not talking

 8     about pension.  I'm talking about something else.  Do you know who made

 9     up the body of officers of the BH army and the HVO and the Croatian army?

10     Do you know that?

11        A.   The members of the former JNA, those who were ethnic Croats and

12     Muslims, were able to join the VA.  It was certainly like that.  Members

13     of the BH army, on the other hand, were for the most part ethnic Muslims,

14     or ethnic Croats.  There were Serbs among them too, not so many though.

15     More or less the same situation applied in the HVO, the Croats' army.

16     Even in the VRS later on there remained a number of ethnic Croats and

17     Muslims.

18        Q.   I don't think you've answered my question fully.

19        A.   Can you please repeat.

20        Q.   Who -- who -- which kinds of officer made up the BH army?  Where

21     did they hail from in terms of status?  Were they former civilians or

22     perhaps coming from another body or army?  If you know, please answer.

23        A.   I know that the first men who were there who -- first leaders of

24     the BH army were members of the former JNA.  Former members of the former

25     JNA.  Some of them I knew personally.  Rasim Delic, Colonel Vehbija Karic

Page 12689

 1     and others as well.  There were, nevertheless, quite a number, especially

 2     of brigade commanders, who were former civilians or people from the TO,

 3     the kind of men then referred to as self-styled brigade commanders, such

 4     as Juka Prazina and Celo, as well as others.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much, I would like to go back now to the topic

 6     that we discussed yesterday, fuel and fuel supplies to the VRS during the

 7     war.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following

 9     document drawn up:  It's a 65 ter document, Defence document, 00761D.

10     Wrong document, I see the B/C/S.  I'll just repeat, maybe it wasn't --

11     just a minute.  Just a second.

12             Again, 65 ter Defence document 00761D.  We do have that document

13     on our screens.  That's it.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Have a look, sir.  This is self-explanatory.  I will have a

15     question about something in particular, a single sentence, General.  This

16     is a document from the Drina Corps Command.  It was dispatched to all the

17     Drina Corps units.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull this up a little

19     so the General can see the bottom of this page.

20        Q.   General, I would like you to comment on a particular sentence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's right under that

22     lengthy paragraph which I'm about to read out.

23        Q.    The assistant logistics commander of the Drina Corps says:

24             "In conversation with these individuals, they claim to be able to

25     supply fuel and that they are doing too.  Nevertheless, no command has

Page 12690

 1     reported to their staff about any quantities received.  The logical

 2     conclusion is that some units even have a surplus of fuel."

 3             General, this is the summer of 1993, you were at the time defence

 4     minister.  What did you know about the fuel supplies in certain units in

 5     the VRS and the supply levels?

 6        A.   This is correct.  It tallies with what I knew at the time, namely

 7     that the units had sufficient supply levels of fuel.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for

 9     this document, Your Honours.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

11     please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D411.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Who in the VRS made decisions regarding the distribution of such

17     fuel as was made available to the VRS?  At what level was that decision

18     taken and how?

19        A.   I know that the commodity reserves of the RS for the most part

20     stored any fuel obtained also for the purposes of the army.  They would

21     then inform the Main Staff, the defence ministry, as well as the

22     government that there was a certain commodity reserves depot where a

23     certain amount of fuel could be found that was to be used for the army's

24     purposes.  Under the regulations that prevailed, it was the Main Staff

25     alone who could decide on the distribution of fuel to all of its

Page 12691

 1     subordinate units and this is something that they did.  They would then

 2     inform units or send orders to the corps saying that a certain amount of

 3     fuel was allocated to them that was there to be picked up from one of the

 4     depots, and they were now free to use it for their own ends.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another 65 ter document, Defence

 6     document, 00832D.  As for the previous document -- all right, I

 7     apologise.  I apologise, this is not the right document.  Can I have a

 8     minute, please.  It's not about this topic.  Just to see whether we can

 9     do it while it's on the screen.

10        Q.   This is not just about the topic that we discussed, namely fuel.

11     The document talks about something else that we mentioned earlier on.

12             General, can you please comment on this.  Who is this delivered

13     to; who is dispatching this document to whom; and what is this procedure

14     about?

15        A.   The document is about the following procedure:  The Main Staff

16     draws up a distribution list for mines produced for the army's purposes.

17     Other kinds of equipment are also involved specifically from the

18     Elektromechanika Enterprise where they produced 1.260 impact rifle

19     grenades.  The Main Staff is now to draw up a distribution chart and

20     specify the units to be allocated ammunition.

21        Q.   We have a small discrepancy in the heading of the document.

22     General, who is this delivered to?  What is KM and PKM, what does that

23     stand for?

24        A.   It reads "Delivered to," and I will give you the full title:

25     "The Main Staff of the VRS command post, rear command post."

Page 12692

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You see, Your Honours, the

 2     discrepancy is what we find in parentheses there in the English, but I

 3     think the General has now sufficiently clarified this.  "PKM" means "rear

 4     command post."  For my purposes we could admit this document into

 5     evidence without requesting a retranslation of the entire document just

 6     because of this single discrepancy.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 8             Mr. Harmon.

 9             MR. HARMON:  The matter has been corrected on the record.  I'm

10     satisfied with that correction and I have no objection to its admission.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let the Chamber be clarified.  This

12     document is from the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska Army, strictly

13     confidential number that, of 26 of September.  It is to be delivered to

14     the General Staff of the VRS of Republika -- rear command post.  Now,

15     what I would like to understand is where physically is the rear command

16     post in relation to the main office of the Main Staff of the army?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you remember, Your Honours,

18     General Skrbic testified to that.  I could ask General Kovacevic the same

19     question, nevertheless.

20        Q.   General, in relation to the location -- or rather, first of all,

21     tell us where was the Main Staff of the VRS located, and then tell us

22     where the rear command post was located?

23        A.   The VRS Main Staff was located at Crna Rijeka.  The distance

24     between Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka being about 5 to 6 kilometres.  It

25     was in the middle of the woods.  The facility was built and equipped

Page 12693

 1     during the time of the former JNA.  There were a number of huts there, as

 2     well as an underground facility to be used in the eventuality of a

 3     nuclear war.

 4             At Crna Rijeka and in those huts, General Mladic,

 5     General Milovanovic, and General Gvero were often to be found, as well as

 6     other security officers.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rear command post --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just tell us where the rear command post was.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Crna Rijeka, next to

11     Han Pijesak.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the Main Staff was in Crna Rijeka.  The rear

13     command post was in Crna Rijeka, next to Han Pijesak.  That's the answer.

14     Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we had an interpretation

16     issue now.  Let me repeat what His Honour just said.

17        Q.   Where was the rear command post?

18        A.   In the centre of the town of Han Pijesak in Hotel Planinka, a

19     civilian hotel.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The document is admitted into

21     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

23     Exhibit D412.  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up Defence document

25     from the 65 ter list 00831D.

Page 12694

 1        Q.   Let us go back to the issue of fuel.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to apologise to Mr. Harmon.

 3     I'm told by my colleague that we omitted to place this document on the

 4     list because it's 00832 and 00831 was placed on the list.  So if

 5     Mr. Harmon has an objection to that, I will withdraw the document, but it

 6     was a typo.

 7             MR. HARMON:  If I can have just a minute to look at the document,

 8     Your Honour.  We can proceed, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Just briefly, please.  We discussed this already when you said

12     who made decisions on how to distribute fuel, so just look at the

13     document and tell us if it's consistent with what you've just been

14     telling us?

15        A.   Yes, this document speaks to the fact that the Chief of the

16     Main Staff of the VRS, General Milovanovic, distributed the stated amount

17     of fuel and ordered that the said amount be set aside for the purposes of

18     this unit.

19        Q.   Let us clarify one issue, General.  There is an acronym here

20     which was not translated.  Where it says "order RDRR," what does this

21     stand for?  Can you see that?

22        A.   Commodity reserves, or rather, war-time state commodity reserves.

23        Q.   Has that got anything to do with the directorate you mentioned?

24        A.   Yes, the reserves were under the sole authority of the

25     directorate.

Page 12695

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document into evidence,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 6     Exhibit D413.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We will move to a different topic now, General.  We will go back

10     to the issue we broached yesterday but we'll now speak specifically of,

11     and that's the budget of the Republika Srpska and specifically the budget

12     line for the VRS.  I will make a distinction between the period up until

13     the end of 1993 and the subsequent period.  What were the basic sources

14     of revenue for the RS budget up until the end of 1993?

15        A.   I know that the source of budget revenue was customs, various

16     other types of revenue as envisaged under the law.  However, most of the

17     revenue originated from the loans granted by the National Bank of

18     Republika Srpska which covered the budget, in fact.

19        Q.   Do you know that in the course of 1993 the loans were in fact

20     also funded by the FRY?

21        A.   Yes, I do know that the RS National Bank also took loans from the

22     FRY National Bank.

23        Q.   Did this continue in 1994 and onwards?

24        A.   I don't think so, especially not when sanctions were imposed and

25     when a new tender, the new dinar was introduced in the FRY.

Page 12696

 1        Q.   We heard evidence here that in early January of 1994, the

 2     so-called economic programme of the new FRY government was pursued and

 3     these were, in fact, specifically Mr. Avramovic's economic and financial

 4     policy.  So has this got anything to do with the loans coming from the

 5     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   To the best of my knowledge, it was impossible to obtain loans.

 7     I know that decisions were taken to secure additional sources of revenue

 8     to the budget by selling --

 9        Q.   Sorry, I'm interrupting you there, but just tell us in what

10     sentence what the gist of the programme of Governor Avramovic was with

11     regard to the stability of the dinar?  What changed?  What was there

12     before and what changed afterwards?

13        A.   Well, the gist of the policy was to cut the spending and to

14     separate the financial obligations of Republika Srpska from those of the

15     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   Was hyperinflation curbed through these measures?

17        A.   I believe so.

18        Q.   Was the money printing from the primary emission put a stop to in

19     this way?

20        A.   Yes, I believe it was.

21        Q.   From the beginning of 1994 onwards, what were the sources of

22     budgetary revenue in Republika Srpska?

23        A.   Tax collection, customs revenue, various levies, taxes levied on

24     Republika Srpska citizens employed abroad which revenue was collected

25     indirectly, then the sale of various goods and capitals present in

Page 12697

 1     Republika Srpska, and loans from the RS National Bank.

 2        Q.   Was the budget itself sufficient for the needs of and

 3     requirements of the army?

 4        A.   The budget was not sufficient to cover all the needs.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, perhaps this question could be

 6     clarified as to time because it would be more helpful to everybody if we

 7     knew the time when we are talking about.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Everything that we will now be

10     discussing is the period from the beginning of 1994 when new economic

11     programmes were introduced in the FRY onwards.  And I'm interested in

12     knowing how the army was financed from the budget and outside of the

13     budget at the time when the so-called sound or solid dinar was introduced

14     up until the end of the war.

15             MR. HARMON:  Then perhaps a foundation could be laid,

16     Your Honour, because this witness stopped being the minister of defence

17     at a certain point in time, and I think if we're going to have a broad

18     expansive inquiry into the sufficiency of the budget, then a foundation

19     has to be laid as to how this witness knows about the budget after he

20     ceased being minister of defence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, it would also be helpful for the

22     Chamber to know when the solid dinar was introduced.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the Torkildsen spoke to this,

24     if I recall.  But I don't want to testify.

25        Q.   General, can you tell us if you remember, when was Avramovic's

Page 12698

 1     dinar introduced, as it were, or in fact the convertible dinar, when was

 2     it introduced in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   I don't have a precise figure to give you, but I know that from

 4     the start of 1994, through to the end of my term of office, at my

 5     proposal, at the proposal of the Supreme Command and at the proposal of

 6     the government, the National Assembly of Republika Srpska carried two

 7     laws.

 8        Q.   Let us first deal with the objection by Mr. Harmon.  So you don't

 9     know the exact date when the new dinar was introduced.  Let's move on

10     from there, then.

11             My next question, up until what time were you defence minister?

12     I think you said it on the first day.

13        A.   It was roughly until the month of August of 1994.

14        Q.   Which position did you take up subsequently?

15        A.   For awhile I was deputy defence minister.

16        Q.   Up until when was that?

17        A.   All the way to the period when I was -- I became eligible for

18     retirement.

19        Q.   You said this, I think, on the first day to Their Honours, but

20     can you repeat it, when was this?

21        A.   Well, it was six months before my actual date of retirement and

22     you will find the date, the exact date, in my personnel file.

23        Q.   I put to you that it was June 1995 since you were retired in

24     January of 1996; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.

Page 12699

 1        Q.   During your term in office as deputy defence minister, were you

 2     privy to the information in possession of the government and defence

 3     ministry about the budgetary funds and non-budgetary funds that were made

 4     available to the army?

 5        A.   Yes, I was privy to that based on two sources.  One was the

 6     ministry itself, and the other was the state committee for centralised

 7     procurement for the purposes of the VRS.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, I thought you said at

 9     page 13, line 13:

10             "I put it to you that it was June 1995 since you were retired in

11     January 1996; is that right?"

12             I see the transcript says "2006," so I just want to make sure

13     that that is corrected.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you were right in noticing this.

15        Q.   So can you tell us again which year were you retired?

16        A.   In 1996.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we proceed.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.  That's all I wanted to correct.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You mentioned this committee, which I can't repeat its title

21     correctly, you'll tell us, but tell us, please, when was this committee

22     formed, who composed it and what did it do?

23        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I think it was in mid-1995.  The

24     committee was composed of quite a few people.  It was headed by the

25     then-president, Radovan Karadzic.  There was General Mladic as well as

Page 12700

 1     the prime minister.  I know that it was decided that I should be the

 2     secretary of this state committee for centralised procurement for the

 3     armed forces of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   What was the basic role of the committee?  Tell us in a sentence,

 5     please.

 6        A.   The procurement of all manner of goods was to be conducted in a

 7     centralised manner in one place, that's to say, this committee headed by

 8     Radovan Karadzic and within presence of General Ratko Mladic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness has shown

10     with his answers that he is capable of telling us how the army was

11     financed, through what means, in 1994 and 1995.  I can see Mr. Harmon

12     nodding.  So I would like to proceed with this line of questioning then.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we get your nod on the record, Mr. Harmon.

14             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm satisfied.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You said that, according to what you knew at the time, the budget

19     was not sufficient, not sufficient in order to make sure sufficient funds

20     were available to the army.  You said the other day that the needs

21     expressed by Republika Srpska were one thing, but the actual allocation

22     is a different thing altogether, needs being expressed by the VRS in

23     relation to its real needs.  What happened with these in that period and

24     throughout 1995?  Were their needs realistic or exaggerated?

25        A.   In my experience, the way they expressed their needs was somewhat

Page 12701

 1     exaggerated in relation to what was actually necessary.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private

 3     session, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 12702

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19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And I note that we started

22     late but it's the time for break.  We'll take a break and come back at

23     quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

Page 12703

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, Mr. Guy-Smith

 3     and our intern, Oonagh O'Connor, are here with us for the following

 4     session.

 5        Q.   General, we are back in open session and I would like to pick up

 6     where we left off before the break about extra budgetary funds.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Defence

 9     65 ter document 00830D.  Could we please pull this up a little so the

10     General can see the date and who signed the document.  To the left,

11     please.  Thank you.

12        Q.   General, are you familiar with this document?  If so, what can

13     you tell us about it?

14        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.  It's a government decision on

15     procuring supplies of all derivatives to be included in the commodity

16     reserves.  The Ministry of Trade is hereby put in charge of implementing

17     this decision.

18        Q.   Paragraph 2 talks about funds, the funds for the payment of this

19     amount, 4.600.000 German marks will be secured by taking out a loan with

20     the National Bank of Republika Srpska.  Is that in keeping with what you

21     said before?  What about this loan for this particular job, is that

22     something that comes from the budget or is this an extra budgetary

23     transaction being bankrolled by the National Bank of Republika Srpska?

24        A.   This is extra budgetary.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I have a number for this

Page 12704

 1     document, please, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the document be given a number and admitted

 3     into evidence.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D414.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document that I'd like to

 8     show the witness while we are still on this topic, 65 ter Defence list

 9     00722D -- rather, I'm sorry.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could counsel please

11     repeat the number.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please repeat the number.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 00722D.  Defence ministry document,

14     the 25th of November, 1993, delivered to the Main Staff -- or rather,

15     addressed to the Main Staff of the VRS.  Can we have page 3 in the B/C/S,

16     please, showing who authored the document.

17        Q.   We see a stamp there and the signature of the assistant commander

18     for moral guidance and religious affairs.  I suppose he worked in a

19     particular unit, but that's not what I want to know about.  Right above

20     where it says there, General, do you know who produced this document?

21        A.   Yes, I believe that this comes from the defence ministry but I'm

22     not familiar with the document's substance.

23        Q.   I'll be reading back to you a number of different paragraphs just

24     to make sure whether --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do that.  Sir, you say you believe

Page 12705

 1     it comes from the defence ministry but you are not familiar with the

 2     document.  Do you by any chance know who the defence minister

 3     Dusan Kovacevic is who is written at the bottom of that document as one

 4     of the co-signatories?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you remember you authoring this document?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm confused by one thing, the

 8     document says the accuracy of the transcript is hereby certified by

 9     assistant commander Colonel Vukelic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see that.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then the corps seal.  Or the

12     corps stamp.  I find that confusing.  That is precisely why I said I

13     would like to be given an opportunity to familiarise myself with the

14     substance of this document.  Once I've done that, I could perhaps give

15     you more informed opinion.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It would be helpful that you do familiarise

17     yourself with the document and tell us whether indeed you are the

18     co-author of the document.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We went through this document during our proofing perhaps --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Give the witness an opportunity to --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 1 of this

24     document.  It numbers three pages in total.  And perhaps we should give

25     the General a chance to read some of this, have a look to see for

Page 12706

 1     himself.  Maybe that will jog his memory.  Could we pull it up, please.

 2     Thank you.

 3        Q.   General, now that you've had a look, do you remember anything in

 4     connection with this document?  Were you involved in the production of

 5     this document?

 6        A.   Yes, this document was produced in the defence ministry.

 7     Everything stated here is accurate in terms of the document's substance.

 8     I am one of the signatories jointly with Mr. Lukic, the president of the

 9     government.

10        Q.   I would like to elicit several comments from you because a number

11     of different topics are mentioned here.  Perhaps you can shed some light

12     on some of these, specifically government decisions.  Paragraph 1, a

13     little lower down page 1 where it reads:  "At the 84th session of the

14     government."

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see that too, I

16     hope?

17        Q.   The government adopted a decree imposing the obligation of the

18     municipalities and enterprise to provide and distribute to the army

19     personnel and so on and so forth, in the reserve force.  Do you remember

20     whether that decree was in fact adopted and did it get ever off the

21     ground, in a manner of speaking?

22        A.   Yes, that decree was adopted and it was about compensating

23     members of the army, soldiers in lieu of salaries, financial

24     compensation.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 2 now, please,

Page 12707

 1     both English and the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   I would like to have your comment on paragraph 5, which is where

 3     you state:

 4             "For the next session of the People's Assembly of the VRS, the

 5     government has proposed a bill on loans to be used to finance the VRS.

 6     If the bill is passed, its implementation will start by the

 7     1st of December, 1993."

 8             Do you remember whether the bill was actually passed by the

 9     Assembly, and would that loan be within the framework of the budget or an

10     extra budgetary loan in terms of funding the VRS?

11        A.   Yes, I remember.  I was one of the people who were involved in

12     drafting this bill.  The bill was then reviewed at a government meeting,

13     certain amendments were made and the bill was then duly adopted.  It was

14     submitted to the People's Assembly of the RS, after which a final

15     document was adopted and published in the "Official Gazette" of the RS.

16     It then took effect, but the results were not those expected.

17        Q.   Paragraph 7 of this document:

18             "The government adopted a conclusion that 10 per cent of the

19     income in the timber and wood processing industry would be allocated on a

20     monthly basis to fund the army."

21             Do you remember if that conclusion was adopted and were any steps

22     taken in accordance with that?

23        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this conclusion and it was adopted by the

24     RS government.  The conclusion was forwarded to the management of the

25     RS forestry which was the central state company in charge of the

Page 12708

 1     country's woodlands.  The conclusion orders the company to put aside

 2     10 per cent of its overall proceeds in the sales of timber and earmark

 3     those funds to be used by the army.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I have a number

 5     for this document, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 7     please be given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 9     Exhibit D415.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have a look at an OTP

12     exhibit and that is P1534.  It addresses an issue that we have been

13     discussing.  Can we also have the left-hand side of the document in the

14     B/C/S zoomed in.  Thank you.

15        Q.   We have before us the report on the work of the defence ministry

16     for the period between August 1994 and November 1995.  Are you familiar

17     with this document, General?

18        A.   Yes, I am.

19        Q.   I will skip the introductory remarks, and tell us first who the

20     report was addressed to and what were the sources that was based on?

21        A.   The report was addressed to the government of Republika Srpska,

22     the Main Staff of the VRS, the president of Republika Srpska, the office

23     of the speaker of the parliament, that's to say, the president of the

24     National Assembly, and specific ministers.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 3 in B/C/S and

Page 12709

 1     5 in English.  This is the portion entitled "Military Economy" --

 2     "Military Industry."

 3        Q.   The report reads:

 4             "The Ministry of Defence focused its military industry work on

 5     providing production materials and increasing production and repairs in

 6     the territory of Republika Srpska."

 7             It goes on to say:

 8             "Assets that could not be produced or repaired in the republic

 9     were purchased according to the needs of the VRS and the ability to fund

10     the army's requests."  What follows is a chart.

11             General, can you explain for us the entries under number 1, which

12     I suppose are typical of the chart?  What can we read in row 1?

13        A.   Under 1, we have rifle ammunition.  The amount produced and

14     repaired in Republika Srpska, 864.000 bullets, that is to say; the amount

15     purchased and donated, 61.590.737 rounds of ammunition; and finally, the

16     sum total.

17        Q.   Where it says "purchased," where was the rifle ammunition

18     purchased, if you know?

19        A.   To the best of my knowledge, it was purchased in the

20     special-purpose industry companies present in Federal Republic of

21     Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   7.62 rifle ammunition specifically, where was it produced?

23        A.   In the special-purpose industry company Prvi Partizan in Uzice.

24        Q.   The sentence below reads:

25             "According to the plan of supplies for the VRS established by the

Page 12710

 1     state committee for procurements ..."  Is that the committee you were

 2     referring to earlier on?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is the reporting period during which the committee

 4     you've just referred to was active.

 5        Q.   The sentence continues:

 6             "... 72 per cent of the level planned was indeed achieved."

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you asked a question:  "7.62 rifle

 8     ammunition specifically, where was it produced?"  Which one is it under

 9     these?  I've got this page 1 that goes up to item 9, I don't see any

10     7.62 ammunition there.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  Unlike the document we looked at

12     yesterday, the ammunition has not been listed here by calibre, it only

13     says "rifle ammunition."  Still my question for the witness --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question to you is:  If it is not mentioned by

15     calibre here, how do you know that it's a 7.62-millimetre calibre?  Why

16     do you ask that question about the 7.62-millimetre calibre if it's not on

17     the document?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because since I'm being asked this

19     now, according to witness's testimony yesterday, 7.62-millimetre calibre

20     was 99 per cent of the ammunition used.  This is something that he said

21     yesterday.  Of course, it's not mentioned in the document here.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not asking what he said yesterday, you are

23     asking him about this document.  Some of us have had the fortune of not

24     being military people, so we are not able to know these things unless we

25     read them.

Page 12711

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I put the question to the

 2     witness?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  I'm far from being knowledgeable in

 5     these matters.  I myself have been learning throughout this time.

 6        Q.   General, this term here, "rifle ammunition," in your view what

 7     calibre does it refer to?

 8             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, Mr. Harmon, yes.

10             MR. HARMON:  I think this calls for speculation.  Unless this

11     witness can give us precise information on this, he is speculating and I

12     object.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are asking him in his view, sir.  You know,

14     look, you should --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will not ask him about his opinion.

16     I'll ask him if he knows what this referred to, what the entry in row 1,

17     what calibre it referred to.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   General, the figure in column 1 of your report, do you know what

21     calibre of ammunition it referred to?

22        A.   I know full well that the VRS had as part of infantry weapons

23     7.62-millimetre automatic rifle Kalashnikov, and 7.62-millimetre

24     semi-automatic rifle.  With these two types of rifle --

25             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm going to object.  Sorry, that's not

Page 12712

 1     responsive to the question.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry?  Sorry, Mr. --

 3             MR. HARMON:  That is not responsive to the question.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness should first

 6     give a complete answer to my question, if he knows which calibre the

 7     ammunition listed under 1 here refers to.

 8        Q.   And this is my question for the time being, General.  Can you

 9     answer that, the ammunition listed under 1, what calibre does it refer

10     to?

11        A.   7.62 calibre for automatic rifle --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, with all due respect, unless the

13     witness has such a photogenic memory and unless he himself in fact drew

14     this, you are really calling for speculation.  It doesn't matter how you

15     ask the question.  And I do -- I'm not quite sure how important it is for

16     your case to establish that this rifle ammunition is a 7.62-millimetre

17     calibre ammunition.  It is ammunition whatever calibre it is, you know.

18     I don't think it is very important to your case, but you might be

19     thinking differently, but I think you really are moving into the realm of

20     speculation if you persist with that question.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do consider this to be important

22     for my case.  Secondly, if you look at all the remaining columns in this

23     document -- perhaps we can ask the witness to leave the courtroom if you

24     want me to pursue this?  Based on the columns and the figures contained

25     therein and based on witness's knowledge dating from the period, I'm sure

Page 12713

 1     that he can give precise answers in relation to all the columns in this

 2     document when it comes to the calibre involved.  He has first-hand

 3     knowledge of this, of the information listed in the report.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that and you, yourself, have told us

 5     already that the witness told us yesterday that 99 per cent of ammunition

 6     was 7.62-millimetre calibre.  To the extent that you expect him to

 7     remember in minute detail what each little order or each little

 8     ammunition was, I really wonder.  But, you know, you go ahead, and if

 9     Mr. Harmon objects, he will object.  Go ahead and ask your question.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, please look at all the columns before you.

12        A.   I have looked at them already and it's all clear to me.

13        Q.   Based on the information contained in the columns, can you tell

14     us what calibre they involved in view of the textual representation?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   Column number 1, what calibre does it relate to?

17        A.   7.62 millimetre for automatic and semi-automatic rifles.

18        Q.   Column 2?

19        A.   The other infantry ammunition relates to the ammunition for

20     pistols, rifle launchers.

21        Q.   Artillery ammunition, what calibres does it relate to?

22        A.   105, 155, 152, 122, and 130, and 100.

23        Q.   I will not pursue this line of questions further.  I'll go back

24     to my previous question to you.  The report says that 72 per cent of what

25     was planned wasn't achieved.  This 72 per cent, does it relate to what

Page 12714

 1     the army sought within its request or does it relate to what the

 2     committee established was indeed necessary for the army?

 3        A.   I think it refers to the requests put forward by the army.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In order for Their Honours to be able

 5     to follow, the question I put to the witness has to do with the sentence

 6     that is on the next page in English.  It is right below the chart.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right below the chart, I'm not quite sure what

 8     that means?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the first sentence beneath the

10     table.  Actually what you see on the page in English is the latter part

11     of the table or chart, and there follows the sentence which my question

12     referred to.

13             Now, let's look at another part of this report entitled

14     "Financing the Defence."  And let's look at page 9 in B/C/S and page 18

15     in English.

16        Q.   This is the chapter dealing with how the defence was financed.

17     The first paragraph is self-explanatory.  It speaks of the insufficiency

18     of the budget, and then it says:

19             "For this reason, additional funds were secured from the state

20     reserves for fuel to be obtained from abroad, and this is the information

21     contained in the report."

22             Do you know if the Supreme Command also discussed the need to

23     obtain additional foreign currency funds for financing the defence

24     efforts?

25        A.   Yes, I know, and this was one of the subjects most frequently

Page 12715

 1     discussed at the meetings of the Supreme Command.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us turn to the next page, where

 3     various budget allocations intended for the army are discussed.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, on this page what does the

 5     acronym "VK" mean, Mr. Kovacevic?  There is a paragraph that says:

 6             "For these reasons, additional foreign currency funds were

 7     provided by VK from the state foreign currency reserve for the

 8     procurement of fuel and imported ammunition, the details of which are the

 9     subject of this report."

10             What does VK mean?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the customary acronym for

12     the Supreme Command.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the same page in the B/C/S,

16     could we just move the document a little to the left.  Thank you very

17     much.  And in the English it's the following page.  As for the English

18     could we pull it down slightly.  Thank you.  But we need the next page in

19     English, not this one.

20             Could we go into private session, Your Honours, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12716











11  Pages 12716-12719 redacted. Private session.















Page 12720

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   General, I would like to have more information about Pretis.  In

19     the former SFRY how important a company was this, in terms of their

20     production activity back then?

21        A.   I know that Pretis Holding was one of the largest companies

22     throughout the former Yugoslavia.  It comprised about 20 different

23     factories with different production programmes.  It also had several

24     factories that were involved in military purpose production, for the most

25     part ammunition and systems required to use that ammunition.

Page 12721

 1        Q.   The Chamber knows about the location of Pretis, but can you tell

 2     us something about the size of the compound in Vogosca specifically?

 3        A.   That was their HQ and all of their administration was there, all

 4     the projects were piloted from there, all of their technology was dealt

 5     with there.  The mainstay of their production and the production lines

 6     for artillery ammunition were also based there.

 7        Q.   What was the distance between Pretis and the front line, the

 8     lines held by the enemy?

 9        A.   I know that Pretis straddled the confrontation line, the distance

10     being no more than several hundred metres.

11        Q.   I asked you about the overhaul centre in Hadzici.  Where was the

12     overhaul centre located in relation to the line held by the enemy?

13        A.   The Hadzici overhaul centre also straddled the confrontation

14     line.  The distance never exceeding 200 metres.

15        Q.   You've explained about how the system operated and we heard about

16     the manager too.  Nevertheless, I would like to use some documents to

17     illustrate that, the relationship between the defence ministry and

18     Pretis.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a 65 ter document,

20     Defence document, 00779D.

21        Q.   Did Pretis continue to operate and produce artillery ammunition

22     throughout the war?

23        A.   Yes, it continued production throughout the war with several

24     brief interruptions due to shelling.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just pull this up slightly

Page 12722

 1     to see who signed the document.

 2        Q.   All right.  First of all, are you familiar with this document and

 3     what can you tell us about it?  I'm talking about the format rather than

 4     the substance.  The substance is there for all to see.

 5        A.   I first set eyes on this document, I believe, when the Tribunal's

 6     investigator spoke to me, or perhaps it was when I talked to you.  The

 7     document was signed by the ministry secretary, Dragan Kapetina, on my

 8     behalf.  The fact is, I didn't sign this document and that can only imply

 9     one thing, I was not involved in formulating the substance of this

10     document or indeed deciding who the document would be addressed to.

11        Q.   Other than that, do you perhaps know if the defence ministry

12     normally was in the business of granting approval for this kind of

13     commercial transaction such as the one here involving Pretis and other

14     commercial companies?  If not, who was in charge of granting that kind

15     approval?

16        A.   Yes, the ministry did grant approval for the purchase and import

17     of certain components on Pretis's behalf, making sure it was able to make

18     contracts with special-purpose production companies in the FRY, depending

19     on the calibre of the ammunition or other component parts, as covered by

20     the agreement between the RS defence ministry and Pretis factory itself.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document please be

22     exhibited.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 12723

 1     Exhibit D416.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document I'd like to show

 4     the witness is from the 65 ter list of the Defence, 00754D.

 5        Q.   This is a document of the VRS Main Staff, dated the

 6     3rd of December, 1994, and signed by Ratko Mladic, which is on the next

 7     page.  Have a look at the document, please.  I'm specifically interested

 8     in your comments on paragraph 2.

 9             Tell me first, in keeping with the regulations, which state

10     agency or body of the army was in a position to be informed at all times

11     of the production and placement of products from the Pretis factory?

12        A.   The funds that the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska agreed

13     with the Pretis factory should be used for purchases from them made it an

14     obligation on the Pretis factory to inform the Ministry of Defence at all

15     times of the amount of products produced, and they had to keep informed

16     the Main Staff of these matters, as did the Ministry of Defence, which

17     had to inform the Main Staff of the state of affairs with regard to

18     ammunition and the distribution of ammunition.  This was standard

19     procedure.

20             Everyone else who commissioned, purchased, or otherwise obtained

21     ammunition from Pretis did not need to report on this to anyone, I

22     believe.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into

24     private session for a moment.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

Page 12724

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12725

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at Defence

12     Exhibit D53.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go --

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, I wish to tender the

15     previous document into evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  00754D is admitted into evidence.  May it please

17     be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

19     Exhibit D417.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Now, what do you want now?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at a

22     document, which is Defence Exhibit D53.

23        Q.   Look at the document, General, please.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the document

25     so that the General can see who signed it.  Let's scroll up now so that

Page 12726

 1     the General can see the entire body of text.

 2        Q.   It's April 1995, Djordje Djukic addresses the Ministry of Defence

 3     and Pretis company on behalf of the Main Staff.  I'm interested in what

 4     is stated under 1.  Can you tell us what this is about and what was the

 5     purpose of this correspondence?

 6        A.   In order for the Pretis company to be able to manufacture

 7     ammunition for the purposes of the VRS, the Main Staff decided to set

 8     aside for Pretis from its own reserves a certain amount of explosives.  I

 9     think it's TNT.  Now, the Ministry of Defence was requested to buy the

10     explosives that were promised to Pretis in the special-purpose industry

11     companies in Yugoslavia.

12        Q.   Do you know in this instant case whether the extent mentioned in

13     the document was indeed acted upon?

14        A.   I believe it was, yes.

15        Q.   Where were explosives produced in Yugoslavia, if you know?

16        A.   In the explosives and gun powder company Prva Iskra in Baric.

17        Q.   And did this company have the same status as Prvi Partizan that

18     we referred to yesterday?  Is it a company from the special-purpose

19     industry?

20        A.   Yes, it applied to all the special-purpose industry companies

21     present in the FRY.

22        Q.   I have another question about Pretis.  Do you know if the

23     Army of Yugoslavia was interested in certain assets held by Pretis, and

24     were there some talks about it?

25        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this case.  I was personally involved in

Page 12727

 1     it.  There was a specific production line machine in Pretis.  It was a

 2     press, in fact.  It was a very large machine.  Now, the FRY Ministry of

 3     Defence wanted us to disassemble this machine and transport it to

 4     Yugoslavia.  At the highest level in the country, at the level of the

 5     government, this request was denied.

 6        Q.   Yes, yes, complete your answer, please.

 7        A.   I personally called President Karadzic, President Krajisnik, the

 8     prime minister, the manager of the Pretis company, representatives of the

 9     SDS party, presidents of the municipalities of Vogosca and Rajlovac, as

10     well as some other individuals, to attend a meeting which I chaired.  At

11     this meeting I lobbied for the machine to be disassembled and transported

12     to Yugoslavia, and the reasons I put forward for it were that the machine

13     was a very precious and expensive, one of a kind in the Balkans, that it

14     would really be a pity if it were to be damaged by combat activities.

15     However, they categorically rejected my proposal and this was something

16     that I had to pay the price for in my subsequent career.

17        Q.   I will move on to a different topic now.  Did the military

18     judiciary operate in Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Yes, it had been set up and it was operational, but I have to

20     tell you that I am not that familiar with that particular field.

21        Q.   Do you know if within the VRS there existed and operated military

22     disciplinary courts?

23        A.   Yes, they had been set up.  I know that they operated but I don't

24     know to what extent they were indeed efficient.

25        Q.   At the time you were a member of the VRS and, later on, of the

Page 12728

 1     defence ministry, did you know that somebody from the Army of Yugoslavia

 2     could actually initiate disciplinary proceedings against you for

 3     something that you may have done within the VRS?

 4             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sir.  Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, first of all, the witness is answering

 7     the questions very quickly, which makes my objecting very difficult

 8     because the answer is given as I stand on my feet.  This witness is being

 9     asked a series of questions about the military judiciary and he has

10     testified he is not familiar with that particular field, that was the

11     answer he has given.  So unless there is a proper foundation laid to

12     asking questions where my colleague is going, I'm going to object and I'm

13     going to object to this last question.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, yes, you are right that the witness

15     said he didn't know just how efficiently the military judiciary operated,

16     but I do not think that the question that was put to him is a question

17     that he may not necessarily have knowledge about.  He might know it, he

18     might not know it, and I really don't think it's -- it doesn't go to the

19     operation of the judiciary.  It goes to whether somebody from the

20     Yugoslav could initiate.  If he knows, he knows; if he doesn't, he

21     doesn't.

22             MR. HARMON:  I'll withdraw my objection to this particular

23     question.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 12729

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, can you answer the question, or should I repeat

 3     it?

 4        A.   Please repeat it.

 5        Q.   At the time you were a member of the VRS and minister of defence,

 6     did you know that someone in the Army of Yugoslavia could, against you as

 7     a member of the VRS, initiate disciplinary proceedings for actions taken

 8     in the VRS?

 9        A.   I know that disciplinary procedure for any breach of discipline

10     had to be dealt with by a military court of Republika Srpska under the

11     prevailing rules and regulations.  I had never heard of a procedure where

12     the Army of Yugoslavia would have jurisdiction or the VJ courts would

13     have jurisdiction in relation to any breaches of discipline committed in

14     the VRS.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see that we are two

17     minutes away from the break and I would like to move on to a different

18     topic.  Perhaps now would be the time to take the break.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  We'll take a break and come

20     back at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, was the defence ministry in any sense involved in

Page 12730

 1     regulating the service status in relation to certain ranks, specifically

 2     the defence minister?  If so, which?

 3        A.   Yes, it was, under the Law on the Army and the law on the --

 4     rather, the defence ministry was in charge of appointments, defining

 5     establishment posts, and promotions of officers to the rank of colonel.

 6        Q.   Did the the Supreme Command ever discuss promotions or

 7     appointments for certain officers?  Was that ever raised at any of these

 8     meetings?

 9        A.   For the most part, no.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our next document, it's part of the

11     personal file which did not become a P exhibit in relation to

12     Mr. Kovacevic, nevertheless it is on the OTP 65 ter list, 07841.

13     Page 129 in the B/C/S.  And the ERN for the English is 0611-5816-ET.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this a Defence document, is it 07841D, or --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I just called it up as a

16     65 ter document, OTP.  The personal file from the OTP 65 ter list, we've

17     got that in our 65 ter list as well but this is how I've called it up.  I

18     think it might be easier to find like this.  I just want to look at this

19     one page.

20        Q.   General, are you familiar with this document?

21        A.   Yes.  This is the decree on my promotion to the rank of

22     major-general, signed by the president of Republika Srpska,

23     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

24        Q.   You are promoted to the rank of major-general in which army?

25        A.   It was in charge of promotions and appointments of generals in

Page 12731

 1     the VRS.

 2        Q.   Yesterday or two days ago, you told us when you were appointed

 3     defence minister.  You said that the position had something to do with

 4     the rank.  Does the date tally with the time of your appointment as

 5     defence minister?

 6        A.   I think there is a discrepancy in terms of the actual dates

 7     because that one said the 19th of January, 1993, as far as I remember,

 8     and it should be easy enough to check; whereas here it says promoted as

 9     of the 1st of February, 1993, or promotion to take effect on the

10     1st of February.

11        Q.   You see the date in the header for this decision?

12        A.   Yes, the decree bears the date of the 19th of January.  I do

13     apologise, it does appear to be consistent.  What I said a while ago was

14     because I had not paid sufficient attention to the date stated here.  The

15     19th of January is the right date.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Kovacevic, just correct me, did you not say at

17     the beginning of your testimony that when you were appointed minister,

18     you were promoted to colonel-general?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I don't think I

20     said that.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for

23     this.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

25     a number.

Page 12732

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised that it is already in evidence.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  P1906.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   General, at one point in time did you receive the rank of

 7     major-general in the VJ?

 8        A.   Yes, it was at one of the Supreme Command meetings.

 9     General Mladic informed me that my promotion to the rank of general had

10     been approved by the Supreme Defence Council of the FRY, approved and

11     ratified, because all of the legal conditions had been met.

12        Q.   When one is given the rank of general, does that affect one's

13     salary?

14        A.   Yes, it does.  The salary is higher than that which pertains to

15     lower ranks.

16        Q.   Do you remember when exactly you got a pay rise, in relation to

17     this date, when Karadzic promoted you or later on when Mladic informed

18     you about the decree in Yugoslavia?

19        A.   The pay rise came after my promotion was ratified in Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Were you served this decree, a copy of this decree promoting you

21     to the rank of major-general in the VJ?

22        A.   No, never.  Nor indeed have I ever seen a copy of that document.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's move on to an entirely different

24     topic.

25             What can you tell us about the Contact Group plan and the view of

Page 12733

 1     the political and military leaders of the RS regarding that plan on a

 2     peaceful solution to the crisis in Bosnia.

 3        A.   I know that the leaders of the RS, at least to the extent that

 4     this was debated at Supreme Command meetings, and President Karadzic were

 5     committed to finding a way out of the existing crisis by peaceful means.

 6     They were committed to putting a stop to the war.  The Contact Group was

 7     to try and understand the position of Bosnian Serbs.  They were not to be

 8     forced into a position where they would be vanquished or crushed in any

 9     of the enclaves.  Rather, they should remain within the framework of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina as internationally recognised country, nevertheless as

11     a separate entity which in territorial terms would have links it to the

12     territory of the then-FRY.

13        Q.   Did you attend any of the Supreme Command meetings at which this

14     was debated, the solution proposed by the Contact Group?

15        A.   Yes, I did attend some meetings where that was discussed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid we'll have to move into

17     private session now, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19            [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to seek the Chamber's

23     approval now for me to look at something from Ratko Mladic's documents

24     with this witness.  For familiar reasons it was not in our previous

25     65 ter list.  This 65 ter 03378D.  That's the Defence list.  This is from

Page 12734

 1     folder 31, for the benefits of my friends from the OTP.  The

 2     Supreme Command meeting dated the 14th of July, 1994.  I would like to

 3     seek the Chamber's approval to orally introduce this document to our list

 4     and then comment on a number of things with the witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 6             MR. HARMON:  I have no objection.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You may, sir.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's about to appear on our screens.

 9        Q.   The 14th of July, 1994, Supreme Command meeting of the RS.  We

10     see the agenda there as stated:

11             "1.  Discussion of the implications of accepting or rejecting the

12     Contact Group plan.

13             "2.  Supplying the army.

14             "3.  Personnel issues."

15             General, there's one thing I would like to ask you to do.  We

16     cannot tell who attended the meeting and your name is not among those who

17     contributed.  Nevertheless, during proofing I had you read this document.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 2 for a

19     moment and then we'll be going back to page 1.

20        Q.   On page 2 -- then we are about to look at the English too.

21             "General Mladic:  Reject the plan, win the war."  In capital

22     letters.

23             During proofing I read this back to you.  Did that jog your

24     memory in any way?  Were you there?

25        A.   Yes, I'm looking at this utterance by General Mladic:

Page 12735

 1             "Reject the plan, win the war."

 2             I fully remember hearing these words at the Supreme Command

 3     meeting.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please go back to the

 5     previous page.

 6        Q.   And may I have you comment, please, on the following, what it

 7     says under number 1:  "Karadzic, item 1."

 8             And then in parentheses it says:

 9             "(Speaking spontaneously, as usual)" or extemporising as usual,

10     "and then 48 per cent is being offered and it is believed that we will

11     get 1 per cent in Sarajevo.  We told Herd yesterday that 49 to 51 was a

12     one-day offer from the Serbs and the Croats."

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see a discrepancy with the English

14     there.  It reads:  "We told Hertz."

15        Q.   Do you know who Herd was at the time?

16        A.   I don't remember Herd.

17        Q.   Douglas Herd, doesn't that ring a bell?

18        A.   The name does ring a bell but I can't remember his specific role

19     in these talks.

20        Q.   Karadzic is quoted there as saying something.  Does that jog your

21     memory?  What he is telling the Supreme Command here?

22        A.   Yes, I remember that.  There is was this permanent offer that

23     Mr. Karadzic was telling the Supreme Command about as well as the

24     government in parliament.  It's entirely consistent with my memory of how

25     things happened at the time.

Page 12736

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted to find out from Mr. Kovacevic if he

 2     remembers what a "one-day offer" means in context?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It means the offer has been on the

 4     table a long time because it's on the table every day.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, can you comment on the following sentence, it's right

 8     underneath.  Please look at that:

 9             "The impression is that he is hesitant and inclined more to

10     accept than to reject."

11             And then next to that we see "RM" and then under lined, the two

12     letters.  Can you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14        Q.   Can you explain what that means?

15        A.   I fully agree.  My impression was always, based on my knowledge

16     of such information, that President Karadzic was more inclined to accept

17     and less inclined to refuse.  The remark is consistent with my own view.

18     "RM" stands for "Ratko Mladic," that means he wrote that.

19        Q.   Does this take you back to the meeting?  Did Ratko Mladic

20     actually utter this in public, or is it an observation that he jotted

21     down in this notebook?  Also what it says in parentheses, "extemporising

22     as usual"?

23        A.   No, he didn't actually voice this.  He secretly or covertly made

24     a note to himself.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 12737

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move on to page 3.

 2     There are some sections here that are quite self-explanatory.  Page 3 in

 3     the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   We looked at the agenda a minute ago.  Number 2 is supplying the

 5     army, number 3 is personnel issues.  So again I'm looking at the words

 6     attributed to President Karadzic.  It reads:

 7             "Some of the officers are behaving towards the SDS and the

 8     civilian authorities as if they were not theirs."

 9             Does that take you back, sir?  Was this the position expressed by

10     Karadzic at that meeting?

11        A.   Yes, I remember that.  That was an ongoing problem and here it

12     found this expression and was expressed by this assessment.

13        Q.   The next thing it reads:

14             "3 per cent of the budget has gone to the army.  It is a

15     catastrophe.  Had the entire GDP gone to the army, it would have been

16     still very little."

17             What exactly did Karadzic mean by that?

18        A.   That was another problem between Karadzic and Mladic.  It is

19     quite true that Karadzic held this view; namely, the view that the army

20     was asking too much and that no budget could cope with such demands.

21        Q.   The last sentence, again I see a discrepancy between the B/C/S

22     and the English.  I'll read it the way I see it and you correct me if I'm

23     wrong, please.

24             "250.000 dinars was in the HK," that's what I see, "for two and a

25     half months."  And the translation reads "KK."  Can we agree that the

Page 12738

 1     abbreviation there is "HK" and what is that a reference to?

 2        A.   I'm tell you what I know and what it actually says.

 3     250.000 dinars remained for two and a half months in the Herzegovina

 4     Corps.

 5        Q.   Why would he say something like this at a Supreme Command

 6     meeting?

 7        A.   Because he personally used some extra budgetary funds - when I

 8     say "he," I mean Karadzic - to send funds to the Herzegovina Corps so

 9     they could make some purchases on their behalf.  Nevertheless, they did

10     not do that.  And they did not use the funds.  The funds had been unused

11     for two and a half months by this time.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be exhibited and

13     for the time being can it be placed under seal, and can we also go back

14     into open session, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number, kept under seal.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

18     Exhibit D418, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, we have heard a great deal of evidence before this

25     Chamber what the decision of the authorities of the RS was in relation to

Page 12739

 1     this Contact Group plan.  We also heard what had happened between the FRY

 2     and Republika Srpska thereafter.

 3             Did you, yourself, feel any consequences flowing from the failure

 4     to accept the Contact Group plan, and if so, which ones?

 5        A.   The consequences were indeed heavy and negative for the entire

 6     government, and the authorities as a whole.  I personally had great many

 7     problems, as did other leaders, and I mean Mladic, Karadzic,

 8     Biljana Plavsic, Koljevic, and several other ministers --

 9             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I'm going to object.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

11             MR. HARMON:  The question was a very narrow question.  It was

12     whether he felt any consequences flowing from the failure to accept the

13     the Contact Group plan, and now we are going into potentially

14     consequences for other people.  He has named Plavsic, Koljevic, Karadzic,

15     et cetera.  So it's not responsive to the question and I object on that

16     basis.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the objection is

18     premature.  The witness is answering for himself and the fact that he is

19     mentioning other individuals as well does not mean that he has gone

20     beyond the scope of my question.  I'm sure that he can explain why he has

21     been referring to other individuals as well.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just so that we avoid objections.  Can you ask him

23     to stick to the consequences that he personally felt, like the question

24     said; and if you want to know about consequences for other people, then

25     you can put that question later.

Page 12740

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   General, please try and give answers that will focus on my

 3     questions and so your stay in The Hague will be much shorter.  So you

 4     personally, which were the consequences you felt as a result of the

 5     rejection of the Contact Group plan?

 6        A.   I was forfeited my salary.  I was banned from physically entering

 7     into the FRY.  My photograph, together with my particulars, was held by

 8     the staff at all the border crossings.  It was a sort of a wanted list

 9     issued by the organs of the FRY.  They were instructed that should I be

10     seen at one of the border crossings, that I should be banned from

11     entering the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Such were the measures

12     implemented against me and the result was that I did not have any means

13     of livelihood and I could not visit my family in Belgrade.

14        Q.   Do you recall how long the measures you've just described for us

15     were in force?

16        A.   All the way through to the end of 1995.

17        Q.   For how long did you go without your salary?

18        A.   I think four or five months.

19        Q.   Do you know if the measures of forfeiture of pay were applied to

20     other individuals, and if so, which ones?

21        A.   I do know that all the officers who had their status settled in

22     Yugoslavia were forfeited their pay.  However, I was the only one who was

23     banned from entering Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   The ban of entry to Yugoslavia was it enforced in relation to any

25     other individuals but for yourself and the ones that you said did not

Page 12741

 1     have that measure?

 2        A.   Well, I know that my photograph had been distributed to all the

 3     border crossings with such instructions.  I don't know about the others.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you asked that question, the witness

 5     said:

 6             "However, I was the only one who was banned from entering

 7     Yugoslavia."

 8             You asked exactly that question after he has given you that

 9     answer.  And now he gives you a different answer, he says he doesn't

10     know.  Just before you asked, he said he knew that he was the only one.

11     Now we are confused, we don't know which one to accept.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness is the best

13     placed to explain this if we created this confusion.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, the ban of entry,

15     complete with the photograph and particulars, related to Karadzic,

16     Krajisnik, Biljana Plavsic, Koljevic, and myself.  And I was the only

17     officer -- the only general of the VRS among them.  That was why I said

18     that I was the only one because I meant in relation to my membership of

19     the army and my generalship.  I was the only one who had that ban of

20     entry that was present at all the border crossings.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let us proceed in chronological order, General.  You told us when

24     it was that you were replaced as defence minister.  Can you tell us what

25     was the information you had regarding the reasons for your removal, and

Page 12742

 1     did you know who was behind it?

 2        A.   I didn't have this information, not any reliable information,

 3     until I was served the decree signed by the FRY president, Lilic.  I

 4     turned to President Karadzic with the request for an explanation as to

 5     why I was being retired.

 6        Q.   General, pause there.  We haven't got to that point yet.  We want

 7     to cover the period between mid-1994 and mid-1995.  I only wanted to know

 8     whether you knew why you were replaced as defence minister in the summer

 9     of 1994.  Did you ever learn the reasons why and the individuals behind

10     your removal?

11        A.   Yes, I did.  President Karadzic told me that the Main Board of

12     the Serbian Democratic Party had asked him to replace me as the defence

13     minister because they did not trust me, and because I was not a yes man

14     and did not obey the party.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you clarify this little confusion in my

16     mind.  You first answered this question by saying you did not know until

17     you were served with a decree signed by the FRY president, Lilic.  Now

18     you say you were advised by President Karadzic that the Main Board of the

19     Serbian Democratic Party asked that you be replaced because they did not

20     trust you, because you were not a yes man.

21             How come that -- first of all there are two things.  You said you

22     didn't know about this until you were served with a decree, which means

23     you couldn't have heard it from Karadzic.  Now, I don't know when

24     Karadzic told you that the board said this, but more importantly, I don't

25     know -- can you explain why you were being replaced by a decree issued by

Page 12743

 1     an FRY president?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I caused the confusion and I

 3     apologise truly.  By your leave, the answer I gave to the last question

 4     put by Mr. Lukic is correct.  I was replaced as defence minister for the

 5     reasons I stated and which originated from the executive committee of the

 6     Serbian Democratic Party.  As for my retirement, my later retirement,

 7     that's where I can explain in the context of Mr. Lilic's decree.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Once you were replaced as defence minister, you were appointed

11     deputy defence minister, as we heard from you, and this -- you continued

12     in this position until the summer of 1995.  Did you continue to have

13     contacts with Karadzic and Mladic in that new position of yours, and if

14     so, what did this contact have to do with?

15        A.   Yes.  I had contact with them but only at the meetings of the

16     state committee for centralised procurement of goods for the armed forces

17     of Republika Srpska.  And possibly if they had any requests to make of

18     me.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just explain something for me again.  They didn't

20     trust you as a minister but they trusted you as a deputy minister?  Was

21     that the situation?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They only trusted me insofar I was

23     able to perform technical duties that nobody was trained or equipped to

24     deal with at that point in time.  They did not want to dispense with me

25     fully, but they did place me in a position that was in the side-lines

Page 12744

 1     completely.  And they used the professional technical services I could

 2     provide.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say that as a deputy minister you were used to

 4     do technical work, not political work?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.  We learn every day.  Thank you so much.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will now complete the picture you

 8     just touched upon, Judge Moloto.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us who was appointed your successor, i.e., the new

10     defence minister?

11        A.   Ninkovic was, who had previously been SDS president for the

12     region of Doboj and deputy of the SDS in the National Assembly of

13     Republika Srpska.  Milan Ninkovic.

14        Q.   Was he an officer too, as were you?

15        A.   No, he was a civilian.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the next topic we will have to

17     move into private session again.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.  Yes,

22     Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Again we are dealing with documents

24     belonging to Mr. Mladic, but we will be dealing with a document that we

25     got a year ago.  I talked to Mr. Harmon and none of us are sure whether

Page 12745

 1     the confidentiality status was abolished in relation to this diary from

 2     Mr. Mladic, which I know was admitted into evidence through a bar motion.

 3     So for the time being we should remain in private session and once all

 4     these documents are declassified, we will apply for this to be public.

 5             This document is not on our list --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, do you confirm?

 7             MR. HARMON:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter Defence document 03375D.

10     This is a meeting at the command post held on the 11th of March, 1995.

11        Q.   General, we went through this during proofing.  This is a lengthy

12     entry and I only wish to dwell on a number of details.  It says

13     "Kovacevic," and then it says, "a job in Greece."  To make it easier for

14     the Trial Chamber to later analyse the document, can you just tell us

15     briefly when this meeting took place, what it was about, and against what

16     background the meeting was held?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Once we are done with this page,

18     could we please flip to the next page in both the B/C/S and the English.

19        Q.   There is mention there of $2 million at the beginning of this

20     document.  Could you just explain what that means.

21        A.   I informed General Mladic that one should expect about $2 million

22     in terms of proceeds from the goods that were sold.  That is what I had

23     been told by President Karadzic.  The payment was to be made to one of

24     the accounts in Greece.

25        Q.   On page 2 --

Page 12746

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, you can see that,

 2     I'm reading directly.

 3        Q.   It reads:

 4             "From Israel - they offer joint combat against extreme Islam.

 5             "- offer the training of our men in Greece at their expense.

 6     They offer us special weapons for 500 men - sniper rifles for free - they

 7     said it came to Bihac.  I don't know whether it was given to Serbia."

 8     End of quote.

 9             General, this entry, what is it about, who is it about?

10        A.   Yes, I remember this.  I made two visits it to the Greek prime

11     minister, Mr. Papandreou.  I also had a meeting with their foreign

12     minister, Mr. Papoulias, and their defence minister as well.

13             During one of these visits I was contacted by the Israeli

14     intelligence service.  They informed me about quite a large number of

15     Mujahedin being dispatched to Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They told me all about

16     the channels along which this operated and all about who was bank-rolling

17     the whole operation.  They said the objective was to drive Serbs out of

18     certain areas altogether, specifically Ozren and Doboj.

19             They offered both weapons, a minor amount albeit, and to train

20     our men for free, but this was only to apply to fighting the Mujahedin.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, let me interrupt you, Mr. Kovacevic.  In

22     your answer you tell us how you met the Greek prime minister and the

23     foreign minister and the defence minister, and that they offered to train

24     your men for free.  But the question that is put to you is about an entry

25     that relates to Israel, not Greece.  Look at the question that was put to

Page 12747

 1     you on the screen.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I had to answer

 3     like that.  I was the one who was contacted.  It wasn't something that

 4     happened at my request.  It was the Israeli intelligence service who

 5     contacted me during my visit to Greece while I was visiting these

 6     ministers.  I did not at any point in time say that anyone from Greece or

 7     indeed anyone from the Greek government made this offer.  It was the

 8     Israeli intelligence service and their representatives alone.  More

 9     specifically, the Mossad.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  But if you had said that in

11     your answer that while you were in Greece you met Mossad people, rather

12     than tell us about Papandreou and other people, because those are not the

13     sources of your information.  You confuse us.  If you can please try to

14     focus on the question and answer the question.  You see now you're --

15     instead of answering where you get the information from, you are giving

16     us the context, that you got the information while you were in Greece

17     meeting these people, and that's not part of the answer.  And you will go

18     home sooner if you can do that.  Thank you very much.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I truly apologise for my

20     clumsiness, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not being clumsy, but it's in the manner

22     of speaking.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please, both the B/C/S and

24     the English.  The last entry on that page, please.

25        Q.   General, it reads, again your words, apparently:

Page 12748

 1             "Through a certain (Nikolas) we can export plane engines to Iraq

 2     and Libya - Iraq also asks for R/D spare parts for tanks.  Libya owes

 3     them a lot."

 4             Can you please comment on that, what was that supposed to mean?

 5        A.   Yes, that's true.  There was a mediator, a wealthy Greek offered

 6     this kind of arrangement.  He was entertaining business links to Libya

 7     and Iraq.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Two pages further into the document,

10     both the B/C/S and the English, please.

11        Q.   It reads:

12             "I'm still a freelancer.  The problem is, Radovan thinks that I'm

13     working for you, and you think that I'm working for him.  I can work a

14     lot, quietly and peacefully."

15             What did this entry mean, because you are quoted as saying that?

16        A.   I was trying to let them know that I was under pressure from all

17     these insinuations to the effect that I was working for someone, be it

18     Karadzic or Mladic, which was in the way of my professional and technical

19     commitment.  My commitment was to get this job done.  I was trying to let

20     them know that I could achieve a lot on the quiet, but as long as no one

21     was meddling with my work and as long as no one was insinuating that I

22     was doing the work on for someone or on someone's behalf.  This was a

23     purely professional endeavour for me.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is one thing that I would like

25     to repeat because of the English translation.  The interpreters could

Page 12749

 1     give me a hand with that.  I don't think the English translation is

 2     appropriate.  Again, this one sentence:

 3             "The problem is that Radovan thinks that I'm working for you, and

 4     you think that I'm working for him.  I can do or achieve or work a lot,

 5     quietly and peacefully."

 6             I think the context is much clearer now in relation to what the

 7     official translation says.  With regard to that, we have the correction

 8     entered and may this please be received under seal.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

10     an exhibit number and kept under seal.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

12     Exhibit D419, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12750











11  Pages 12750-12754 redacted. Private session.















Page 12755

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, I would like to move on to a different topic, and namely

15     that of the relationship between Republika Srpska and the Republic of

16     Serbian Krajina.  Can you tell us first of all, had you heard of the --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the counsel repeat what sort of declaration

18     it was.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, can you please repeat what declaration it

20     was, Mr. Counsel.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Had you heard of the Prijedor declaration?  Can you answer the

23     question, General?

24        A.   Yes.  A session was held of the Republika Srpska

25     National Assembly together with the deputies of the National Assembly of

Page 12756

 1     the Republic of Serbian Krajina in the town of Prijedor.  At that point,

 2     a declaration was adopted which stated that a unified body of -- a single

 3     body of territory would be set up, a single system of defence, a single

 4     army which was supposed to be headed by General Ratko Mladic.  A single

 5     government would be introduced and a number of other issues were

 6     addressed in other decisions.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 00772D, a document

 8     from the 65 ter list of the Defence.

 9        Q.   This is the Prijedor declaration about -- on the unification of

10     the RSK and the RS.  The date is the 31st of October, 1992.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can look at paragraph 3,

12     we could scroll down the document.

13        Q.   It reads:

14             "The two Assemblies proclaim that Republika Srpska and the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina shall form a defensive alliance with the task

16     of providing equal protection to the freedom and integrity of the two

17     republics until a final political solution is reached."

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will read out another paragraph

19     which is on the following page, Your Honour.  And I would like the

20     witness's answer to address both.  I'm interested in the penultimate

21     paragraph, the 13th paragraph of the declaration.  It's on the next page.

22        Q.   Paragraph 13 reads:

23             "The Assemblies of Republika Srpska and the Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina proclaim the determination of the Serbian people in these

25     republics to unify their state.  This unification will be postponed until

Page 12757

 1     the expiry of the UN plan for the protection of the Krajina."

 2             It's a document dating from October and I'm interested in the

 3     subsequent period where you held the position we heard of.  Did there

 4     persist among the VRS and the political leadership of the RS to be

 5     committed to the substance of this declaration?

 6        A.   Yes, I do know that there remained the desire for the unity and a

 7     unified system of defence for the two countries.

 8        Q.   Do you know what the position of the FRY leadership was in

 9     relation to the declaration and the commitments stated therein on the

10     part of the RS and the RSK?

11        A.   I know that the FRY leadership wanted to prevent this.  What I

12     saw as the problem was particularly the unification of special-purpose

13     industry companies.  The governments of the RS and the RSK had charged me

14     with producing a programme to that effect.  However, the leadership in

15     Belgrade explicitly forbade this.  What I heard was that

16     President Bjelosevic forbade this and this programme was, in fact, never

17     implemented.

18        Q.   When it came to the unification of the political leaderships of

19     the RS and the RSK, did you know or hear of any other meetings or

20     agreements as a follow-up to the Prijedor declaration?

21        A.   I heard from President Karadzic, at the time of my term within

22     the committee for centralised procurement, that he would personally see

23     to it that a unification is achieved above all of the defence systems of

24     both territories.

25        Q.   Did you hear of the Drina plan?

Page 12758

 1        A.   No, I didn't hear of the plan.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I would like to stop

 3     here for today, and I would like to tender this document into evidence.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D420.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             Once again, Mr. Kovacevic, I remind you that you may not talk to

10     anybody about the case while you are still in recess until you are

11     completely excused from testifying.  We have to break up for today.

12     We'll come back tomorrow at 9.00, same courtroom.  Court adjourned to

13     Courtroom II, 9.00 in the morning, tomorrow.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of July,

16                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.