1 Thursday, 15 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Could we have appearances,
12 starting with the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
14 Good morning everyone in the courtroom. Mark Harmon and Laurent
15 Vuillemin for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And as for the Defence.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
18 morning to everyone in and around the courtroom. General Perisic is
19 represented today by Novak Lukic, Tina Drolec, Alex Fielding, and
20 Oonagh O'Connor.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.
22 Good morning to you, Mr. Kovacevic. Just to remind you again
23 that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of
24 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but
25 the truth.
1 Mr. Lukic.
2 WITNESS: DUSAN KOVACEVIC [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
5 Q. Mr. Kovacevic, I do not have many questions left. I wish us to
6 cover several topics. You have already testified to this issue, but it
7 seems to have been touched upon only in passing. Based on your knowledge
8 and information you had, what sort of relationship existed between
9 President Karadzic and General Mladic during the war?
10 A. For the most part they clashed over differing concepts and what
11 prevailed most of all was their personal resentment one of another.
12 Q. Can you tell us what sort of relationship existed between
13 President Milosevic and the FRY leadership or, rather, what was there
14 attitude to this sort of relationship between Karadzic and Mladic?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I don't understand that question. Unless
16 you are misinterpreted, Mr. Lukic. You are saying can you tell what sort
17 of relationship existed between President Milosevic and the FRY
18 leadership or, rather, was there attitude to this sort of relationship
19 between Karadzic and Mladic. I'm not sure what is being asked there.
20 Can you rephrase.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. If you know, President Milosevic and the FRY leadership, did they
23 play any sort of role or what was their attitude towards the relationship
24 between Karadzic and Mladic?
25 A. To my knowledge they did not have any role to play in that or
2 Q. Let us move on to another topic. General, do you recall the 50th
3 session of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska as meaningful in any
5 A. I do recall several sessions. What I recall from this particular
6 session is quite a few items on the agenda and the developments
7 surrounding them.
8 Q. Do you know if General Mladic reported on the state of affairs in
9 the VRS at any of the sessions, and do you recall what sort of
10 information this was?
11 A. I do know that General Mladic himself reported to the National
12 Assembly of the RS about the problems existing within the VRS,
13 particularly those concerning materiel supplies, in particular supplies
14 of ammunition and fuel as well as some other assets.
15 Q. Do you recall what sort of reaction these reports of his prompted
16 on the part of the National Assembly, if any?
17 A. Almost always most of the deputies felt that the requests were
18 exaggerated, that Republika Srpska was unable to meet them, and that the
19 VRS ought to take a more reasonable stance in that regard.
20 Q. Can you tell us what the collegium of the defence minister was
21 and who composed this body?
22 A. It was composed of the defence minister, deputy minister,
23 ministry secretary, and assistant ministers.
24 Q. Did the collegium discuss Mladic's reports intended for the
25 Assembly concerning the requests from the army?
1 A. Yes, always or almost always.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up P312. We would
3 like the witness to have a look at a Prosecution document. 42 is the
4 page in B/C/S, and 51 in English. These are minutes from the 50th
5 session of the RS National Assembly, 15th and 16th of April, 1995, in
6 Sanski Most. I'd like to direct you to page 42 in B/C/S and 51 in
7 English. What I'd like to show the witness is paragraph 2 in English.
8 Q. General, this is General Mladic's intervention at this Assembly
9 session and he says, among other things, the following:
10 "As an illustration, I will compare data of the consumption of
11 certain types of materiel according to source from the beginning of the
12 war up until 31st of December, 1994, with the needs for 1995 and the
13 current situation. The total infantry ammunition consumed since the
14 beginning of the war to date amounts to 9.185 tonnes, and of this, 1.49
15 per cent was secured from our own production, 42.2 per cent from materiel
16 reserves that we inherited, that we pulled out of the enclaves or found
17 in the barracks of the former army, 47.2 per cent from the aid from the
18 Army of Yugoslavia, and 9.11 per cent was imported, i.e., bought."
19 General, based on the information you had concerning the state of
20 affairs when it came to reserves and the procurement of this sort of
21 materiel and technical equipment, is the data presented herein by
22 General Mladic correct?
23 A. I do recall that at the minister's collegium we discussed these
24 figures presented in General Mladic's report. However, the information
25 we had was altogether different. We did not have occasion to present the
1 information we had to General Mladic so that he may be able to take them
2 into consideration and possibly include them in his report. Therefore,
3 the figures shown here originate solely from the Main Staff without the
4 participation of any outside body including the Ministry of Defence,
5 which was improper.
6 Q. What prompts you to say that the information presented here is
7 inaccurate or differs from the figures you had?
8 A. We had information to the effect that a far larger amount of
9 assets had been produced in the RS. We also had information indicating
10 that a far greater quantity of goods had been imported. Having been the
11 ones who paid for them, we had accurate information about it. We also
12 had figures indicating the quantities held in the reserves belonging to
13 the former JNA, and we also had figures about the amount of proceeds from
14 the purchases done by municipalities and local authorities.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now page 43 in B/C/S and
16 52 in English, please. Your Honour, I will be reading paragraph 2 and it
17 is simply the continuation of General Mladic's address.
18 Q. I'm quoting General Mladic's words, General.
19 "At the same time, it is impossible to avoid the duplication of
20 rations in some units and permanent shortages in the case of others.
21 Because of a lack of information, technical service organs constantly
22 come up against problems in resolving the requests of units for
23 replenishment with materiel supplies. Municipal government organs, work
24 organisations in the RS, not to mention donors outside the republic, are
25 not obliged to inform the Main Staff of the donations made to the army.
1 It is indicative that both the donors and recipients respond to requests
2 to submit regular reports on received materiel supplies reluctantly and
3 incompletely." End of quote.
4 Does what General Mladic say here tally with the information you
5 had concerning the reserves and the reporting about the reserves?
6 A. Yes, I fully agree with this.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 59 in B/C/S and
8 71 in English. This is Minister Ninkovic taking the floor at this
9 Assembly session. I'll read from the start, Your Honours. Can we scroll
10 down in B/C/S, thank you. And then we'll have to move on to the next
11 page in the B/C/S.
12 Q. Ninkovic says:
13 "Presidents, ladies and gentlemen, I've heard for the second time
14 now the integral exposé of General Mladic, which was comprehensive, but
15 in the opinion of the inner collegium of the ministry, in our view, this
16 report or brief does not meet the requirements the National Assembly has
17 laid out so far, especially since its 35th session. In his intervention,
18 the General has discussed some issues which are more of a state and
19 political nature, which will certainly be judged by the deputies and
20 other politicians.
21 However, we believe that some of the substantial aspects of the
22 problem were not covered. For instance, we believe that some of the data
23 presented in this report should first have been harmonised, and we
24 believe that the Ministry of Defence should have harmonised them together
25 with the Main Staff, especially when it came to the fuel and ammunition
1 supplies to the army, the engagement of human resources for the needs of
2 the army, for the needs of the economy, and its running."
3 The information relayed by Mr. Ninkovic as reflected in this
4 minutes, are they consistent with what you knew at the time?
5 A. Yes, they do. They are consistent.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] B/C/S page 61, as two further
7 entries, brief ones, page 73 in the English text. This is Branko Simic's
8 contribution. I will be using the second part of the first paragraph,
9 but before I go on --
10 Q. Witness, who was Branko Simic and what was his position at the
12 A. I remember that he was a deputy who hailed from a predominantly
13 Serbian area in the Neretva river valley, Herzegovina. He was also the
14 secretary of the People's Assembly.
15 Q. In your view given his position at the time, did he have
16 sufficient information on the army's materiel resources?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. The second part of the first paragraph:
19 "Another thing, General, in this very serious statement you
20 yourself admitted that you had no insight into the materiel supplies of
21 the Serbian army. To make such assessments without insight is, to my
22 mind, incorrect, to say the least. You should visit the Serbian
23 municipalities. I'm there every day, certainly with regard to this
24 treatment, I could not do that, and see the sums the Serbian people are
25 giving through the municipalities for the Serbian army."
1 Sir, do you know what he meant by that?
2 A. Information was made available to him by other deputies from
3 other municipalities. Information regarding the amount of funds
4 earmarked by all these municipalities to meet the army's needs, and also
5 regarding to what extent the companies throughout those municipalities,
6 state-owned as well as privately-owned ones, were earmarking their own
7 funds for the benefit of the army.
8 Q. Did they have a commitment to inform the Main Staff about all
9 these funds being earmarked and used for the army's benefit at a local
11 A. Yes, there was a commitment, but I don't think they actually
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 81 B/C/S, page 96 in the
14 English. President Karadzic's words, my final entry. The B/C/S page is
15 not correct. 81, 81. That's right.
16 Q. I won't be reading this out loud. Read it for yourself, General,
17 the one in the middle, the paragraph: "I must first say a few words
18 about General Mladic's contribution."
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You can see that paragraph and that's
20 the paragraph that I'm drawing the witness's attention to.
21 Q. My question about this paragraph and the words of
22 President Karadzic is this: At the time, the spring of 1995, what was
23 the relationship between Mladic and Karadzic, their mutual relationship?
24 A. Relations were quite tense between the two. At Supreme Command
25 meetings Karadzic demanded that General Mladic be dismissed or removed
1 from his position.
2 Q. Was a decision taken in that regard and was that proposal
3 accepted? And if not, why not?
4 A. It was never accepted. Karadzic never provided sufficiently
5 compelling reasoning for this demand, nor was there ever an assessment of
6 what the ramifications might be of General Mladic's dismissal.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to move on to P1071.
9 The minutes of this same meeting.
10 Q. These are minutes that we see here taken at the 15th meeting in
11 Sanski Most. We have the agenda there as well as the conclusions. Can
12 we please comment on conclusion number 5.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] B/C/S page 4, English page 3.
14 Q. Read it for yourself, General, please, conclusion number 5.
15 General, following this Assembly meeting, did President Karadzic at any
16 point in time change General Mladic's post or have him dismissed for
17 awhile? Did he do anything about that?
18 A. Yes, I am aware of what happened. President Karadzic had
19 General Mladic replaced and removed from his post as commander of the
20 Main Staff of the VRS. He appointed him his own personal advisor.
21 Mladic nevertheless opposed this change. I don't know when and if he
22 actually took up this position that he was newly appointed to.
23 Q. Thank you very much, General. I'm moving on to my last and final
24 subject, your retirement. I would like to discuss that a little.
25 On the first day we went through your CV and I think your formal
1 retirement came in January 1996. Who informed you of your retirement?
2 Did you speak to anyone about that?
3 A. The first time I heard anything was from the personnel
4 administration of the Main Staff of the VRS. I was summoned to the
5 personnel administration of the General Staff of the VJ on such and such
6 a date. The summons was served me and I signed it off. When the day
7 came, I reported to the personnel administration building in Belgrade to
8 speak to General Matovic. At one point in time, General Perisic turned
9 up. He informed General Subotic and me that the Supreme Defence Council
10 had decided to retire both of us. He also said that the boss, Milosevic,
11 President Milosevic, was the person behind that decision.
12 He also said something like, please don't oppose this. Don't
13 stand up to it, don't speak out because you might suffer negative
14 consequences if you do.
15 Q. Thank you very much. How did you interpret this phrase "negative
17 A. Both General Subotic and I drew the following conclusion: No
18 good would come of this. We both got an early retirement which in a way
19 was brusque. We had never been told about it and we both felt as though
20 we'd been kicked out of the army. At the time it wasn't unthinkable that
21 we might suffer both physical and status-related consequences as well as
22 other kinds.
23 Personally, I never reacted or spoke out against this, although I
24 was in fact extremely unhappy.
25 Q. Did you ever hear of any cases of physical or status-related
1 consequences inflicted upon persons who spoke out and who put in a
3 A. No, I am not aware of any such cases but the prevailing mood was
4 to not put in any kind of reaction when decisions like that were made at
5 your expense.
6 Q. Following this conversation, did you perhaps have a chance to
7 raise this with Karadzic? Did you get to know more about the
8 circumstances of your retirement from perhaps a different source?
9 A. Indeed. I spoke to President Karadzic about this. I expressed
10 my discontent. I put it to him loud and clear I was unhappy because I
11 had been retired without any reason being stated to me and I still needed
12 five years of full service. Because of the missing five years, my
13 pension was now much smaller than it otherwise would have been. He
14 responded that the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party was
15 reluctant to keep me on in the defence system, or flat out refused to
16 keep me on. He also said that General Mladic was not willing to take me
17 on board the Main Staff of the VRS, although there was a vacancy there
18 for a general which I was professionally perfectly qualified to fill.
19 And General Djukic was there, he said you'll just be around here with us,
20 we shall be requiring your services. You will stay on as a member of the
21 government. In actual fact, I became none of those things that they
23 Q. Did you later on receive any other official decisions on your
24 retirement following the presidential decree?
25 A. Yes, I received a decree on my retirement in the VRS signed by
1 Radovan Karadzic, the then president.
2 Q. Do you still keep a copy of that decree?
3 A. Yes, as a matter of fact I do.
4 Q. Where do you keep it?
5 A. It's in my flat in Belgrade.
6 Q. When did you inform General Perisic's Defence of this, the decree
7 and your retirement signed by Karadzic?
8 A. Yes, I told you once when we spoke.
9 Q. When you say once, I would like to know, was it here in The Hague
10 or earlier on when we met elsewhere?
11 A. It was earlier on when we met elsewhere.
12 Q. Did you receive any other copies of official decisions regarding
13 your retirement?
14 A. Yes, I got one from the personnel administration.
15 Q. No, you said that already. I'm sorry to interrupt, but did you
16 perhaps find out about any other decision on your retirement by a third
18 A. Indeed I did. When Biljana Plavsic took up her position as
19 president of Republika Srpska, they read her decree in the evening news
20 on television, a decree on the retirement of quite a large number of VRS
21 generals. The list included my name and rank making this the third time
22 I was being retired by someone different.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] General, this concludes my
24 examination. I thank you for your answers. Your Honours, this completes
25 my examination.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
2 Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would request a brief adjournment.
4 My case manager called in ill this morning and I just need to ensure
5 before I start my examination that my exhibits are in order and they've
6 all been uploaded, so if I could have a brief adjournment until the
7 normal time of reconvening, I think I can resolve any questions I have.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take a break and come back at quarter
9 to 11.00. Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 9.50 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. Before I begin my
14 cross-examination, I would just like to regulate this one exhibit. It is
15 P2783. The wrong details have been uploaded into P2783 and I would
16 request that the correct details for that exhibit, which are found in 65
17 ter 09567C be uploaded into the exhibit number.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That is done.
19 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:
21 Q. Sir, good morning. My name is Mark Harmon. I'm a Prosecutor for
22 the Office of the Prosecution, and I will be cross-examining you today
23 and possibly tomorrow.
24 This morning you spoke about General Mladic's retirement. You
25 discussed what happened to him in the rupture between he and
1 President Karadzic, and you said that General Mladic was sought to be
2 moved to a different position by President Karadzic. What was the
3 reaction to President Karadzic's efforts to move General Mladic to a
4 different position? Remove him from being the chief of the VRS Main
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whose reaction?
7 MR. HARMON: I am sorry.
8 Q. What was the reaction of the other generals in the VRS to
9 President Karadzic's efforts to remove General Mladic as chief of the VRS
10 Main Staff?
11 A. Based on what I know, General Milovanovic was offered Mladic's
12 position and he refused the offer. Most, or rather, all of the generals
13 were against General Mladic's removal.
14 Q. Did the other generals sign a document in support of
15 General Mladic?
16 A. I know that a list circulated of those who were in support of
17 Mladic and others in support of Karadzic. I know that some generals
18 signed a list, and I personally refused to sign anything in favour of
20 Q. So you did not sign a list in favour of General Mladic?
21 A. That's right. I didn't sign either the list for General Mladic
22 or the one for Karadzic.
23 Q. Do you know what other VRS generals did not sign the list in
24 support of General Mladic?
25 A. I only heard that some generals were against General Mladic, but
1 I myself did not see any sort of a list that would have been signed by
2 these generals.
3 Q. What position did President Karadzic attempt to move
4 General Mladic into after he was to be relieved as chief of the VRS Main
5 Staff? You mentioned the advisor to the president, did I understand that
7 A. President Karadzic issued a decree removing General Mladic.
8 Based on this decree, Mladic was appointed advisor to the president of
9 the republic and supreme commander.
10 Q. Did he assume that position?
11 A. I don't know that he ever held that position.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt a little bit. There is
13 something that I would like to clear here.
14 Sir, at page 14, line 9, you said based on what you know
15 General Milovanovic was offered Mladic's position and he refused the
16 offer. You then went on to say, most or rather all of the generals were
17 against General Mladic's removal. Now, at line 23 you say "I only heard
18 that some generals were against General Mladic, but I myself did not see
19 any sort of a list that would have been signed by these generals." I
20 would like you to reconcile these two answers because you on the one hand
21 you say all generals were against, on the other you say you heard of some
22 generals who were against Mladic but you didn't see a list. Can you just
23 resolve that because -- what was the actual correct position?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is that when Karadzic
25 issued a decree removing Mladic, there ensued arrests on both sides.
1 Mladic arrested the generals who did not support him, whereas Karadzic
2 arrested the ministers, specifically the Defence Minister Ninkovic. And
3 I know that Mladic had General Dragomir Milosevic arrested because he
4 failed to support him and failed to sign the list in support of
5 General Mladic.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the correct position is that not all generals
7 supported Mladic? There were those who were against him, e.g.,
8 Dragomir Milosevic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON:
12 Q. And can you tell us how long General Mladic remained chief of the
13 VRS Main Staff after that apparent rupture?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In order to have no confusion, the
16 interpretation was that of a Chief of the Main Staff, whereas Mr. Harmon
17 said commander of the Main Staff. I suppose that my learned friend
18 Mr. Harmon wanted to know how long he remained in position of the
19 commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.
20 MR. HARMON: That's correct.
21 Q. Can you answer that question, sir?
22 A. Despite President Karadzic's decree on the removal of
23 General Mladic, General Mladic remained in the position of the commander
24 of the Main Staff of the VRS up until Biljana Plavsic took up the
25 position of the president of Republika Srpska, at which point she issued
1 a decree on the retirement of General Mladic.
2 Q. Can you tell us what year that was?
3 A. I believe it was early 1996, or a bit later. There is a precise
4 date recorded somewhere, I'm sure. I don't know it.
5 Q. Now, this morning you talked about your termination in the VRS.
6 You talked about earlier your service in the VRS. You gave us a lengthy
7 description of your duties and responsibilities. Can you tell me what
8 remuneration you received from the Republika Srpska for your services in
9 the VRS?
10 A. I was receiving my salary through the accounting centre of the
11 Ministry of Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia pursuant to a
12 decision on my status in keeping with the decision of the Supreme Defence
13 Council of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. Sir, my question was what remuneration did you receive from the
15 VRS in respect of your service in the VRS?
16 A. I did not receive any remuneration from the Army of Republika
18 Q. And so you neither received any pay. Did you receive a pension
19 at all from the Republika Srpska for your service in the VRS?
20 A. I received my pension from the pension fund of the
21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia based on the fact that most of my years of
22 service hailed from the time of the former JNA.
23 Q. Now, yesterday and throughout your testimony at various parts you
24 testified about the Pretis factory in Vogosca. You were quite familiar
25 with that factory, were you not?
1 A. Yes, I was quite familiar with it, especially before the war.
2 Q. Okay. And you mentioned the director of the factory, Mr. Motika.
3 Can you tell me who Radomir Ecimovic was and what his relationship was in
4 the Pretis factory?
5 A. I know Ecimovic from the contacts I had; however, I don't know
6 what his position in the Pretis factory was.
7 Q. Did he hold a high position in the Pretis factory?
8 A. I think that he was in charge of a production line, one
9 production line.
10 Q. If I were to put to you that he was the technical director of
11 Pretis, would you agree with me or disagree with me?
12 A. It is possible. I'm not sure, but I agree if that's what you say
13 he was.
14 Q. Do you you know what his duties and responsibilities were at
15 Pretis? If you don't, you can tell us.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, the earlier answer was in the
18 realm of speculation and what can be obtained further from the witness is
19 more speculation.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
21 MR. HARMON: Fine, Your Honour. Then let me -- that's fine, Your
22 Honour. It's been covered.
23 Q. You say you knew Mr. Ecimovic, sir. Was he a member of the 30th
24 Personnel Centre of the VJ?
25 A. I really don't know that.
1 Q. Okay. We'll come back to this a little bit later.
2 MR. HARMON: I'd like to go into private session first of all,
3 Your Honour. I have some questions I want to ask.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 12778-12784 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Yes, Mr. Harmon.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Yesterday, sir, you testified about the consequences of the
8 fallout resulting to you as a result of the rejection of the Contact
9 Group plan. That testimony is found at pages 12739 and goes through
10 12741. Now, sir, the consequence --
11 MR. HARMON: Actually, could I have -- first of all, could I have
12 P222 on the monitor.
13 Q. Sir, this in front of you is an Article from "The Borba Daily"
14 dated the 5th of August, 1994. And do you see the Article that is
15 captioned or entitled "Federal Government Decides to Cut Political and
16 Economic Ties with Republika Srpska. Border on Drina Closed." Do you
17 see that?
18 A. Yes, I see that.
19 Q. Now, sir, the border was closed according to this article, and I
20 want your confirmation of it, was closed to the political figures, this
21 banishment applied to political and governmental leaders only; isn't that
23 A. Yes, that is correct. Nevertheless, also correct is what I said
24 in relation to myself, the ban applied to me.
25 Q. But you were in a position of the minister of the government at
1 the time this ban was imposed; am I right on that, sir?
2 A. By this time I had been removed from that position already.
3 Q. So you were then a deputy minister of the government, if I
4 understood your testimony yesterday?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. So this political ban on political leaders, how long did that
8 A. I don't know exactly. Several months.
9 Q. So several months after the 5th of August, 1994, the political
10 leaders of the Republika Srpska were permitted to go back into the FRY;
11 do I understand that correctly?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Now, this consequence, this border being closed to the political
14 leadership did not apply to the military, to the VRS leaders, did it?
15 A. What I know is that it applied to General Mladic and a number of
16 generals from the VRS Main Staff.
17 Q. Okay. So that is somewhat in contradiction to what you told us
18 earlier in your evidence, and it's in contradiction to this article,
19 isn't it?
20 A. As I said earlier on --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon is referring to the
23 article. I think the witness should be given a chance to read the
24 article in which case we should zoom in because the letters in the B/C/S
25 copy are very small. Or perhaps Mr. Harmon can refer to something
1 specific in the article as long as he is invoking it.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I am referring to the central
4 paragraph in the middle of the page that reads as follows:
5 "Belgrade - The federal government took the decision in a meeting
6 yesterday to cut all political and economic ties with the Republika
7 Srpska. A statement issued after the meeting said:
8 'The Republika Srpska leadership by rejecting peace, has
9 committed the worst act against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the
10 Serbian and Montenegrin people, and all other citizens in these
11 territories. Therefore, the federal government has decided to: Cut
12 political and economic ties with the Republika Srpska; ban Republika
13 Srpska top officials (Assembly, Presidency, government) from FRY
14 territory; the FRY border is closed for all shipments into Republika
15 Srpska except food, clothes, and medicine.'"
16 Q. So, again, sir, there is no reference in this article, nor in
17 this statement issued by the FRY that VRS generals or military
18 personalities would be banned from entering the FRY territory, is there?
19 A. What I know is that the ban certainly applied to me, as I
20 explained. If you so require, I can provide further details. My
21 photograph wearing a uniform at a border crossing was pinned on to the
22 wall at the border crossing itself, the police station there. Whenever a
23 police officer sent me back, he would always tell me that there was yet
24 another list that was not available containing the names of other
25 persons, members, and even some generals of the VRS. I never saw the
1 list myself. Nevertheless, the police officers told me that
2 General Mladic was in fact on that list.
3 MR. HARMON: Okay. Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 2819 on the
4 monitor, please.
5 Q. Sir, I'd like you to review this document and I'll give you an
6 opportunity to review it and we'll go to the next page in your language,
7 just let me know when you have finished reviewing the first page.
8 MR. HARMON: Can we go to the next page if there is a second page
9 in the B/C/S so that the witness can review it. Thank you. And could we
10 go to the second page in the English as well.
11 Q. Have you had a chance to finish reviewing it, sir? That calls
12 for a "yes" or "no" and no explanation.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. This is a document dated the 12th of August, 1994, and
15 it's from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security
16 section and it is being disseminated to subordinate units. The topic on
17 this is fighting the rumours on upset relations between the VJ and the
18 VRS first sentence reads:
19 "After the unilateral suspension of the political and economic
20 relations of the SRJ and the RS, we have registered frequent rumours and
21 misinformation on the alleged suspension of relations of the VJ with the
22 VRS of which you have also reported."
23 MR. HARMON: Could we go back to the first page of each of those
24 documents while I read. I'm reading from the first page.
25 Q. Now, further down in that first page it says:
1 "On the contrary, the relations between the VRS and the VJ are
2 still correct and have not been upset by the suspension of political and
3 economic relations with the SRJ and the RS."
4 You see that, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Can you comment on that paragraph I just read?
7 A. I've never seen this document before and I'm now familiarising
8 myself with its substance. It is conceivable that this document was
9 delivered to the subordinate units of the 1st Krajina Corps.
10 Nevertheless, all of this is information recorded by the security organ
11 of the 1st Krajina Corps. The corps commander is not there, the VRS Main
12 Staff is not there. It is conceivable that a document like this was
13 drawn up, its substance being what it is, and subsequently sent down the
14 chain of command to the units.
15 Q. In fact, relations between the VJ and the VRS remained quite
16 robust during that period of time, didn't they, sir?
17 A. This is merely a conclusion by the security organ, signing this
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. HARMON: Could we go into private session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
24 MR. HARMON: Could I --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Harmon.
1 MR. HARMON: Could I have P2783 on the monitor, please. I'm
2 interested in English page 1 and B/C/S page 1.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, this is from General Mladic's diary, you've seen
4 excerpts from it previously. This reflects a meeting in Belgrade on the
5 24th of January, 1995, where General Mladic was present with the Supreme
6 Defence Council of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. You see that,
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MR. HARMON: Could we go to English page 5 and B/C/S page 5 of
10 this exhibit.
11 Q. Sir, this is an entry in General Mladic's diary dated the 16th of
12 February, 1995, and it reflects a meeting with General Mladic,
13 President Lilic, Milosevic, Bulatovic, and Perisic. You see that?
14 A. Yes, I see that.
15 Q. Okay. And Lilic, Milosevic, and Bulatovic were members of the
16 Supreme Defence Council of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; correct?
17 A. That's right.
18 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to page 6 in English and page 6 in
20 Q. Sir, I direct your attention to the entry of the 3rd of March,
21 1995, where General Mladic meets with President MS. Do you know what MS
22 stands for?
23 A. I am not sure really. It can mean several things. But it's
24 possible that it stands for Milosevic, Slobodan, or something like that.
25 Q. All right, sir, thank you.
1 MR. HARMON: Let's go to page 8 of the English and page 8 of the
3 Q. Sir, there do you see the diary entry dated the 6th of April,
4 1995, a meeting with General Perisic and J. Stanisic?
5 A. Yes, I can see that.
6 Q. And also present, as you note, on the first line, General Gvero
7 was present as well as General Mladic. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 MR. HARMON: Let's turn to page 10 English and page 10 B/C/S.
10 Q. Now, this is a -- sir, this is an entry of the 30th of June,
11 1995. It's General Mladic recording a meeting with President Milosevic
12 and the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MR. HARMON: And lastly in this document, if we could go to page
15 17 of the English and page 17 of the B/C/S.
16 Q. General Mladic in this entry, sir, records a meeting that he had
17 with President Milosevic and General Perisic on the 24th of July, 1995.
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Just before I move from this entry, this is an entry that was
21 made shortly after the fall of the Srebrenica enclave; isn't that
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And Slobodan Milosevic is recorded as saying "Srebrenica and Zepa
25 have damaged us greatly. You must have political dimension in the post
1 of commander of the army. I wanted to prove to everyone that you are a
2 serious man." So Srebrenica at this particular meeting was discussed;
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since these questions go beyond the
6 scope of my direct examination, the Prosecution should put their case to
7 the witness in keeping with the rules and why they would like these
8 questions answered.
9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm happy to withdraw the question.
10 This diary entry speaks for itself.
11 Q. My next question, sir, is -- in fact I'll return to an earlier
12 question. The relations between the VJ, between General Perisic and
13 General Mladic and other members of the VRS remained quite robust, didn't
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can Mr. Harmon be more precise in his
17 terminology, what does it mean quite robust? And this was interpreted
18 with three different words in the B/C/S, and I understand the difficulty
19 the interpreters are in. I would like Mr. Harmon to be more precise.
20 MR. HARMON: I'll be glad to be more precise.
21 Q. Following the banishment of political leaders from the FRY, the
22 relationship -- I put to you, sir, the relationship between
23 General Mladic and the military authorities, including General Perisic,
24 in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were not affected by the fallout
25 from the rejection of the Contact Group plan; correct?
1 A. I really cannot draw any conclusions about the personal relations
2 between General Perisic and General Mladic. Only those who were present
3 during their meetings could pass such a judgement. What I do know is
4 that General Mladic very often expressed his anger at General Perisic.
5 He even looked down on him somewhat, and he said that Mladic ought to be
6 the commander of the VRS and no one else.
7 But I can't be more precise than that since I did not have either
8 the required contacts or the required insight into the relations.
9 Q. Okay. Well, let me further explore with you your answers in your
10 testimony about the fallout from the rejection of the Contact Group plan,
11 and specifically focusing, sir, on the fallout to you personally.
12 At 12740, lines 10 through 16, you testified that measures had
13 been taken against you, and quote, "that you could not visit my family in
14 Belgrade and that the ban lasted until the end of the war." Do you
15 remember that testimony, sir?
16 A. Yes, I remember that.
17 Q. In fact, sir, between the imposition of the ban on your entry
18 into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the end of the war, you did,
19 in fact, enter the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and you did, in fact,
20 visit your family, didn't you?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. So then let's focus on what's right. Tell me the number of times
23 and the circumstances in which you visited your family between the
24 imposition of this ban and the end of the war?
25 A. I was told that I can enter Yugoslavia only on the approval of
1 Jovica Stanisic, the then boss of the state security service. Every time
2 I wanted to enter Yugoslavia, I had to dial the telephone number of his
3 office, announce my visit, and then have Jovica Stanisic personally give
4 me the permission or deny it. When he granted me permission once, he
5 said that at a certain border crossing, there would be a man from state
6 security waiting for me and who would then escort me to my flat.
7 And that's how things happened. I was always monitored by that
8 individual from state security at all times while I was visiting my
9 family and up until the point I left the territory of Yugoslavia. That
10 was the only safe passage that I had in the territory of Yugoslavia.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of precision, at page
13 35, line 23 and 25 it should read Jovica Stanisic.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic, yes.
15 MR. HARMON:
16 Q. For the record, who is Jovica Stanisic, sir?
17 A. Jovica Stanisic was the head of state security of the Republic of
19 Q. Sir, and how many times did you visit your family then in the
20 period between the ban and the end of the war?
21 A. Between five and six times. Sometimes I was denied entry, and
22 it's hard to remember.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. HARMON: I notice the time, Your Honour, I'm happy to break
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If it's convenient to you.
2 MR. HARMON: It is, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at -- I beg your
4 pardon, before we do that can we move into open session, please.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past
8 12.00. Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could I just make a little point before you start,
12 Mr. Harmon. At the beginning of your testimony you indicated that you
13 were talking to the witness for the rest of today and possibly tomorrow.
14 What the Chamber wanted to find out, not only from you but from
15 everybody, is whether we would be agreeable to sitting extended hours
16 this afternoon to allow you to finish the witness and possibly get a free
17 day tomorrow.
18 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, in principle, I have no problem what
19 that. It depends how far into my examination I progress. I will try my
20 best. I have one matter to check during the next break and I'm in a
21 better position to advise you where I am in my examination at the end of
22 this break, but in principle I have no problem. I can't guarantee that I
23 will finish with the witness, however.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In practice would you have the strength to sit the
25 whole day.
1 MR. HARMON: Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And would our witness have the strength to be
3 grilled the whole day, and of course our interpreters and the rest of the
4 staff would also have to make a contribution to this and to indicate
5 whether they are agreeable. I will ask them once you have given us
6 feedback on how far you are.
7 MR. HARMON: That's fine, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. Sir, I want to stay on the topic of your ban --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, please, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let Mr. Harmon first speak his mind.
13 For the time being, as far as the Defence is concerned, I'm not opposed
14 to us working in the afternoon, but I should first perhaps state our
15 position once we've heard Mr. Harmon. In principle, I am in favour of
16 the proposal.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, I want to stay on the topic that we were discussing before
20 the break and that is your ban from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
21 During the period of the initiation of the ban until the end of the war,
22 how many times did you visit the VJ General Staff in Belgrade?
23 A. I don't think I ever did. In principle I never made official
24 visits to the General Staff of the VJ.
25 Q. How many unofficial visits did you make?
1 A. Once or twice I met with General Perisic, but it was solely a
2 private visit. We had been friends for a very long time.
3 Q. What was that private visit, what did you discuss during that
4 private visit?
5 A. The first issue had to do with my housing problem, which had not
6 been solved. We also discussed family problems because he too had lived
7 in Sarajevo and had similar problems with his flat in Sarajevo as I did.
8 We talked about his private automobile which had been seised in Sarajevo
9 and some other issues.
10 Q. What other issues?
11 A. About political matters. I told him that I was in a very
12 difficult situation, hard-pressed between two sides. Mr. Perisic told me
13 that he too every day as he was coming to work was expecting to be served
14 a decree removing him from his function.
15 Q. When was that private visit?
16 A. It definitely took place before sanctions were imposed. I don't
17 recall ever communicating with Mr. Perisic at the time the sanctions were
18 in force.
19 Q. When you say sanctions, you mean the prohibition of your entry
20 into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
21 A. Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
22 Q. My question then -- you misunderstood my question. My question
23 to you, sir, is how many times did you visit the General Staff of the VJ
24 from the time you were banned from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
25 until the end of the war?
1 A. On two occasions at the most.
2 Q. Okay. When was the first occasion?
3 A. I really don't remember.
4 Q. What was the purpose of your going to the VJ General Staff on the
5 first occasion?
6 A. General Perisic had asked for his privately-owned car, his
7 Toyota, to be pulled out of Sarajevo. I received this duty from
8 President Karadzic. I did all in my power to have the car taken out and
9 my first meeting with Perisic was in order to let him know that I was
10 sorry, but I was unable to get the car out of Sarajevo and take it to
12 Q. If you were banned from entering the FRY, how was it that you
13 went to Belgrade? What were the circumstances on how you went to
14 Belgrade then to report to General Perisic about his car?
15 A. Now, what I just stated about the car happened before I was
16 banned from entering Yugoslavia.
17 Q. Let me try again, sir. My question is this: On how many
18 occasions from when the ban on your entry into Yugoslavia started until
19 the end of the war, on how many occasions did you go to the Federal
20 Republic of Yugoslavia and specifically to the General Staff of the VJ?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you understand that question,
22 Mr. Kovacevic? It's coming a third time. How many times did you visit
23 the VJ General Staff during the ban, not outside of the ban?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a detailed answer to this
25 question before the break. I don't recall ever visiting anyone in the
1 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, at the time when there was a ban
2 on my entry to Yugoslavia through to the end of the war, from that period
3 through to the end of the war.
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. So I take it your answer is that you did not enter the
6 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia during the period of the ban?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, that's not the answer.
8 MR. HARMON: Okay. Then I will --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The answer is I never went to the VJ General Staff
10 during the period of the ban.
11 MR. HARMON: Correct, I'm sorry. Then I misphrased it.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And before the break he said he probably went five
13 or six times to the Federal Republic --
14 MR. HARMON: I withdraw that question, Your Honour. I misphrased
15 the question.
16 Q. Sir, then do I understand your evidence to be that you never
17 wasn't to the General Staff of the VJ during the period of the ban?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. In your evidence this morning at page 10 you said at line --
20 starting at line 2 you said:
21 "I was summoned to the personnel administration of the
22 General Staff of the VJ on such and such a date. The summons was served
23 to me and I signed it off. When the day came, I reported to the
24 personnel administration in Belgrade to speak to General Matovic."
25 So where did that conversation take place?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. It was in the building of what was at the
2 time I believe the 30th Personnel Centre.
3 Q. Okay. And on that occasion -- I may have asked you this, I don't
4 remember. Do you remember approximately when that was?
5 A. I answered that I didn't recall the exact date, but the summons
6 would state the precise date and I saw the summons at Mr. Lukic's.
7 Q. Right. All right. Sir, thank you very much. Let me move to a
8 different topic then. Yesterday in your evidence --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may leave it for the redirect, but
11 for precision's sake it was contained in the personnel file of this
12 witness and Mr. Harmon knows this. The file contains the summons.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, it does contain the summons. I have a
14 copy of the summons. There is no point, since the witness has answered
15 that he received the summons, that I need to show him the summons. I
16 have the summons. I was asking him -- my point of interest was how many
17 times he went. I know he went at least one time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess what Mr. Lukic is trying to explain is
19 just that the Lukic referred to here isn't himself.
20 MR. HARMON: Okay. All right.
21 Q. Sir, let me explore an issue that you've raised on more than one
22 occasion in the course of this evidence. Specifically, it's --
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I direct you and counsel to page
24 12667, lines 3 through 8.
25 Q. And your evidence was as follows:
1 "At the beginning of the war through the end -- through to the
2 end of 1993, the VRS had sufficient quantities of ammunition and fuel.
3 Objectively and realistically speaking, there was no need for certain
4 types of ammunition to be additionally obtained because the quantities
5 were sufficient. There were only a couple of types of ammunition that
6 were in short supply."
7 Okay. Let me, first of all, just get some context to this
8 answer. Are you familiar, sir, with the strategic objectives of the
9 Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. Yes, I was familiar with some of these objectives, and I do
11 recall that one of them was access to the sea, if I remember correctly.
12 Q. Could I have -- well, the other objectives were -- the first was
13 to -- and the demarcation of the state to separate the -- to separate
14 from the other two communities; in other words, separate the Serbs from
15 the Croats and the Muslims. The second objective was a corridor between
16 Semberija and Krajina. The third objective was the establishment of a
17 corridor in the Drina River valley and the eradication of the Drina River
18 as a border between the Serbian states. The fourth was establishment of
19 borders along the rivers Una and Neretva. The fifth was the partition of
20 the city of Sarajevo into Serbian and Muslim sections and the
21 establishment of an effective state authority in each section. And the
22 sixth was the one that you mentioned, access to the sea for the Republika
23 Srpska. Does that refresh your recollection as to what were the
24 strategic objectives?
25 A. Yes, I do believe that what you've just read out were these
2 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the types of military operations that
3 were taking place in Bosnia. After the creation and the development of
4 the strategic objectives and, in fact, before the creation of the
5 strategic objectives there was active combat going on in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina; isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes, there was fighting going on even before the National
8 Assembly met for the session where the mentioned objectives were adopted.
9 Q. Those objectives were adopted at the 16th session of the Bosnian
10 Serb Assembly held on the 12th of May, 1992; is that correct?
11 A. At the time I was not in a position to know that. I don't know
12 the precise date when it was adopted.
13 Q. That's fine. That's fine. Let me just -- the strategic
14 objectives were military objectives as well as political objectives; in
15 other words, the military was to implement those political objectives,
17 A. Yes, that's correct. In principle that's the case.
18 Q. Let's talk about the extensive combat that was taking place
19 between May 12th, 1992, and the end of 1993. First of all, there was
20 extensive bombardment and shelling of Sarajevo; isn't that correct?
21 A. I'm familiar with it.
22 Q. And that bombardment was extensive between May of 1992 and the
23 end of 1993, wasn't it?
24 A. The clashes between the two sides continued intensively
25 throughout the war and so did the use of artillery.
1 Q. My question is somewhat different. The bombardment of Sarajevo
2 by the Bosnian Serbs between May of 1992 and the end of 1993 was
3 extensive; do you agree or disagree with that proposition?
4 A. I do agree that there was bombardment, but I can't estimate what
5 the extent was. I don't know the details about the number of rounds
7 Q. Okay. Now, are you familiar with Operation Corridor?
8 A. Yes, I am, in Posavina.
9 Q. Operation Corridor was a military effort to implement the second
10 strategic objective which was to establish a corridor between Semberija
11 and Krajina; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. What I also know, however, is that the
13 primary reasons were the deaths of infants and children in the Banja Luka
14 maternity ward.
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to listen to my questions and answer my
16 questions. Now, that military operation started on the 24th of June,
17 1992, and lasted until mid-July. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And the units that were involved in the Operation Corridor
20 included the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS; correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. That was a period of intense combat that consumed a significant
23 amount of ammunition; correct?
24 A. There was fighting going on and a large amount of ammunition was
1 Q. Now, are you familiar with Operation Vrbis [phoen]?
2 A. No, I'm not.
3 Q. Are you familiar with the operation that was conducted by the VRS
4 to take Jajce in central Bosnia and its surroundings?
5 A. I'm familiar with the operation, but I don't know what its name
7 Q. But you are familiar with the operation? That operation was
8 conducted in July of 1992; correct?
9 A. I assume so. I don't know with certainty.
10 Q. Are you aware that the 1st Krajina Corps and other VRS units
11 participated in that operation?
12 A. Yes, I am aware of it.
13 Q. Let's -- I want to focus your attention along the eastern border
14 along the Drina River in 1992. The third strategic objective was to
15 eradicate the Drina River as a border between Serbian states and so that
16 area in Eastern Bosnia became the focus of military operations conducted
17 by the VRS; correct?
18 A. I'm familiar with it and I'm also familiar with the reasons why
19 the operations was carried out.
20 Q. Okay. But you are familiar with there was extensive combat in
21 Eastern Bosnia in the period of 1992 up through the end of 1993, wasn't
23 A. I said that I knew about the fighting and the operations, but I
24 was not in a position to learn the real reasons why the operation was
25 conducted save for the need to make sure that there was territorial
1 contact between Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia, or rather
2 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
3 Q. The operations themselves were extensive, they were conducted by,
4 among other corps, the East Bosnia Corps, what was later the Drina Corps,
5 and other units from the VRS; isn't that right?
6 A. That's not right. I can give you an explanation.
7 Q. Please just tell me which units participated in the VRS military
8 activities along -- combat operations along the Drina River?
9 A. You said that it was East Bosnia Corps that took part in it which
10 was later renamed the Drina Corps, that's what I meant when I said that
11 this wasn't correct. What is correct is that the Drina Corps was set up
12 as a separate corps; whereas, what previously existed was the East Bosnia
13 Corps headquartered in Bijeljina which had been set up earlier on.
14 Q. I accept that, sir, and I misspoke. My interest is what were the
15 units that were involved in the extensive fighting that took place
16 through the end of 1993 along the Drina River?
17 A. I note that the Drina Corps participated in this, as did some
18 other brigades from other corps. From which ones and which other corps,
19 I really don't remember.
20 Q. There was extensive fighting in the area in and around
21 Srebrenica, that fighting ultimately resulted in the creation of enclaves
22 in Eastern Bosnia. Are you aware of that?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. Okay. It resulted in the creation of the enclave of Zepa,
25 Gorazde, and Srebrenica; that's correct, isn't it?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Those military operations consumed vast amounts, a huge amount of
3 ammunition and war materiel; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And in fact, these major military operations in Eastern Bosnia as
6 well as the ongoing operations in the other parts of the Republika Srpska
7 continued to consume major quantities of ammunition through the end of
8 1993; correct?
9 A. The Main Staff did indicate that there was a large consumption of
11 Q. In fact, they indicated to the government of the Republika Srpska
12 that their reserves were depleted; isn't that right?
13 A. That's what they reported to the Ministry of Defence, the
14 government, and the president of the republic.
15 Q. Okay. Now, let me --
16 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have three documents that fall under
17 the rubric of fresh evidence. And I'd like to have a -- make submissions
18 on those, but I think the witness should leave the courtroom while I make
19 those submissions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Kovacevic, there's a request that you excuse
21 us for some time. We'll call you back.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I am seeking leave to introduce three
25 documents, I'm putting aside one document which is the Mladic diary which
1 I'll deal with when I come to it, but three documents that address
2 precisely the subject that the witness testified about. They are
3 65 ter number 8948, 65 ter number 6399, and 65 ter number 7346. These
4 are three documents that we did not introduce in our case in chief
5 because this was a topic that General Kovacevic raised, that there was
6 insufficient [sic] ammunition, for the first time during the course of
7 these proceedings.
8 I can tell you, Your Honour, in respect of 65 ter 8948 we
9 received that on the 22nd of October, 2006. We disclosed it to the
10 Defence by DVD on the 29th of February, 2008. In respect of 65 ter 6399,
11 we received that document on the 22nd of January, 2000. We disclosed it
12 to the Defence on the 2nd of February, 2007 by a -- in a DVD. The third
13 document, 65 ter 07346, we received on July 7th, 2006, and we disclosed
14 it twice to the Defence; once on the 10th of August, 2007, and once on
15 the 16th of November, 2007, and both disclosures were by CD.
16 As I say, I am seeking to admit these because of the testimony of
17 this witness who raises in this trial for the first time the depletion of
18 materiel assets in the VRS at the end of 1993.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I oppose this, Your Honour, for two
21 reasons. First of all, I don't think it is possible that Mr. Harmon
22 should be taken aback by Mr. Kovacevic's present testimony. As you know,
23 Mr. Kovacevic was on the OTP's witness list. They interviewed him twice.
24 The second interview took place on the 26th of July, 2007. Mr. Kovacevic
25 told the OTP in no uncertain terms at the time that before the end of
1 1993 the reserves of the VRS had been reduced. In addition to that,
2 General Djukic's statements, which are evidence, address the same facts.
3 General Djukic claims the same thing that we heard from
4 General Kovacevic. In his evidence he claims admittedly that the
5 reserves were reduced in mid-1993.
6 I think the Prosecutor had full awareness of this information
7 even before the trial and not just during their case. During their own
8 case, they had every opportunity to introduce these facts through any
9 witness they chose, perhaps even Mr. Kovacevic himself. The OTP failed
10 to do that at the time. They are trying to do it now. Nevertheless,
11 this is not really something unknown that the OTP has just discovered. I
12 don't think the standard has been met to introduce new evidence like that
13 at this point in time.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we did not call General Kovacevic to
16 testify. We did not make the -- we did not introduce these documents
17 obviously until he came. I think the interest of justice are something
18 that we must put above all in terms of the technicalities of the --
19 whether we introduced these or not. These documents will demonstrate
20 that the VRS ammunition reserves and other materiel reserves were
21 exhausted. One of the documents, Your Honour, is a report to the
22 government of which this witness was a member.
23 So I also include in my submissions that it is in the interests
24 of justice and in the interest of this Trial Chamber to see and review
25 those documents.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did Mr. Kovacevic tell you in no uncertain terms
2 during an interview by the OTP that the reserves were depleted?
3 MR. HARMON: Give me one minute, Your Honour. I'll tell you
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance --
6 MR. HARMON: I have a reference, Your Honour. Yes, he told us
7 that: "Until the end of 1993 the VRS had enough food, fuel, ammunition,
8 but we did not have enough clothes or boots mostly." That's what he told
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, something is happening which is confusing me.
11 Earlier when you were -- you started with your submissions, and I'll tell
12 you where. At page 48, line -- starting from line 21 you said: "These
13 are three documents that we did not introduce in our case in chief
14 because this was a topic that General Kovacevic raised, there was
15 insufficient ammunition, for the first time during the course of these
16 proceedings." And I wanted to find out from you at the time whether you
17 meant to say he said there was sufficient.
18 MR. HARMON: Yes, either I misspoke or it's improperly recorded.
19 If I said insufficient, I meant to say "raise for the first time there
20 was sufficient."
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If that's what you meant, then I now
22 understand your latest point. I see you, Mr. Lukic, but I'll call you
23 just now. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to respond to Mr. Harmon, I
25 don't think this is a technical issue, and I don't think this is in the
1 best interest of justice. I assert that these are not new facts that the
2 OTP has just learned of and that cannot be used as a reason to establish
3 a new standard for introducing evidence. These are facts that the OTP is
4 aware of. They presented these facts through General Djukic's statement.
5 Their omission to do so at the time cannot in any way justify doing so
6 now through General Kovacevic.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber, Moloto dissenting, will grant your
9 application, Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honours. The witness can be called
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Call the witness.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: Thank you. Could I have 65 ter 8948 on the monitor,
17 Q. Sir, I want to first of all direct your attention to the source
18 of this document, which is found at the upper left-hand corner of the
19 document. It is from the Main Staff of the VRS and it's dated the 18th
20 of July, 1993. And it is titled "Replenishment Need, Army of the
21 Republika Srpska," and it is submitted to the General Staff of the VJ to
22 the chief, personally.
23 MR. HARMON: Can we go to the last page of this document and see
24 who the author of this document is.
25 Q. You see who is author is, sir?
1 A. Yes, I do. Chief of Staff, Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic.
2 MR. HARMON: Can we return to the first page of the document.
3 Q. Would you read the first paragraph, sir, to yourself.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We discussed the extensive combat that was taking place in the
6 Republika Srpska before I showed you this document. This document from
7 General Milovanovic says that in the last six months, six months prior to
8 the 18th of July, the VRS had been engaged in continuous combat
9 activities aimed at the liberation of ancient living territory of the
10 Serbian people. And he goes on to say that in the combat they spent huge
11 quantities of materiel which cannot be replenished from our own
13 Now, sir, the resources that were available to the VRS were the
14 reserves that were left over by the JNA amongst other things; isn't that
16 A. General Milovanovic, as Chief of Staff, had information available
17 to him based on which he was able to produce this request. Hence, I
18 believe that the request was based on that.
19 Q. All right. So according -- and therefore he makes a request to
20 the VJ to provide them with extensive quantities of ammunition because
21 they can't replenish the expended ammunition from their own reserves;
22 isn't that correct?
23 A. I believe that's what he wrote, but I do have information
24 suggesting that they did in fact have ammunition.
25 MR. HARMON: Let me go to private session, if I may, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
2 [Private session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I went into private session because I
6 want to deal with another entry from the Mladic diary. I first seek
7 leave to include this document, it's XN 358 on our 65 ter list.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you still going to come back to this document
9 here, 8948?
10 MR. HARMON: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'd ask that be
11 admitted into evidence. I'm not going to come back to it.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
13 given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
15 Exhibit P2915. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. P2 -- Mladic document.
17 Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this one of the three documents
19 that the previous application was in relation to?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: No.
21 MR. HARMON: No, this is a separate --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is a Mladic document, which all parties have
23 received now during the trial as I understood --
24 MR. HARMON: Yeah, this is --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Mr. Harmon's initial argument.
1 MR. HARMON: This is not one of the documents I was making an
2 argument about. This is a separate document, a Mladic document, and I'm
3 adopting the usual procedure that we have had in respect of all of these
4 Mladic diary entries.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a problem with that
6 procedure, Mladic diary entries. I'm just trying to figure out whether
7 that is one of the documents that we ...
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may first clarify. I have
10 information suggesting that the document being called up now is one from
11 the OTP 65 ter list and not an excerpt from the Mladic diaries, is my
12 understanding correct?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, it is not correct, sir. I want to -- trying
14 to refer you back to Mr. Harmon's initial submission. If you look at
15 page 48, starting from line 17 Mr. Harmon says:
16 "Your Honour, I'm seeking leave to introduce three documents.
17 I'm putting aside one document which is the Mladic diary which I will
18 deal with when I come to it." So 8948, 6399, 7346 are the documents that
19 you are speaking to. Now, as he is standing, he is now speaking to this
20 one, he is coming now to the Mladic document. And the Mladic document,
21 he says, it's an entry in the diary which is documents that have been
22 received by both parties now recently, but therefore it cannot be in his
23 65 ter list logically.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated].
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone. Microphone, Mr. --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is the portion that was
3 assigned a 65 ter number during the Prosecution case dated 1995. The
4 Mladic diaries. That became OTP evidence. However, without going into
5 that, I'm wondering whether what he is about to show now is an
6 XN document, and if so, Mr. Harmon should explain why he is about to use
7 these documents with this witness. Do the documents meet the standards
8 to be shown this witness as fresh evidence?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean "accent document"?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is the way the OTP internally
11 marked documents that don't have a status, neither 65 ter nor T nor D.
12 So in that case we are talking about fresh evidence. My question, this
13 entry that the witness is about to be shown should be seen as fresh
14 evidence unless it has a status. If so, Mr. Harmon should set or define
15 a standard required for us to even discuss this document.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, just before yourself, please, I've
17 tried to explain to Mr. Lukic and I'm failing.
18 MR. HARMON: This is a document from the Mladic diaries. We
19 have -- both parties have used the procedure when we want to use
20 portions, excerpts from these diaries. So this is a diary entry that I
21 am I going -- I want to rely on and want to introduce and show this
22 witness like any -- like many others and in fact like Mladic diary
23 entries I showed the witnesser earlier. So my purpose is to invoke the
24 same procedures that we have used in respect of these diary entries that
25 we've used with every other diary entry.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really have a problem now. What
2 we've been showing the witness, what Mr. Harmon has been showing the
3 witness is evidence introduced by the OTP during their case. Now
4 Mr. Harmon wants to use this opportunity to introduce new evidence from
5 the Mladic diaries invoking a procedure that we adopted. We adopted a
6 procedure in relation to the Defence case and that's where we're at. A
7 new 65 ter document can be tabled or proposed orally. The OTP is in no
8 position to propose their own new 65 ter numbers during the Defence case.
9 All they can do is try and propose fresh evidence and that is the whole
10 difference. This is an excerpt from the Mladic diaries that the
11 Prosecution never used during their own case. If they wish to do so now
12 with this new witness, a Defence witness, they have to use it as fresh
13 evidence and not raise an issue of assigning a 65 ter number to this
14 excerpt in the middle of the Defence case. I'm not sure if there's
15 anything that I'm confused about, but I think the procedure is pretty
16 clear. Once the OTP case is over, the OTP can either ask to re-open
17 their case or introduce new evidence. They can't have a document
18 assigned a 65 ter number now. Are we admitting new evidence? In case we
19 are, we may indeed assign a number to it, a 65 ter number, but we
20 certainly do need to establish a standard for that purpose.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I find it very hard to follow your argument,
22 Mr. Lukic. And maybe you are right, I'm also misunderstanding
23 Mr. Harmon. Let me try and explain one more time. What I understand
24 Mr. Harmon to be saying about this document that he has put us into
25 private session about is that he is introducing fresh evidence, it is
1 fresh evidence because it is part of the Mladic diaries that became
2 discovered to everybody only during the Defence case. Is that what you
3 are saying, Mr. Harmon?
4 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I said. And the standard has been,
6 and that's the procedure, that fresh evidence they can introduce. Is it
7 not? Is that not the procedure that we've agreed on? The reason we
8 postponed for almost two months was that the parties must look at these
9 diaries so that they must decide which parts of them they would like to
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor wants to introduce
12 a new portion of the Mladic diaries, they can do so by either re-opening
13 their case or introducing it as new evidence specifying why this fresh
14 evidence, does it go to a witness's credibility, is it based on the Prlic
15 decision, or is there something else in relation to new evidence. But
16 they have to say this, they have to provide an argument. That's all I'm
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is your position that the Prosecution was in
19 possession of this information during their case?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I'm missing something. I really don't follow
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The OTP learned of the new documents,
24 the Mladic diaries, or these documents after the start of the Defence
25 case. The Prosecutor must file an application to use new evidence to
1 prove that they were not aware of the evidence and that it is now in
2 their best interest to introduce this evidence. They need to have a
3 standard that is based on the Prlic decision. It's not just about them
4 recently learning of this new document. The other standard has to be met
5 as well.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Namely?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would need to invoke the decision
10 during the break. I can't do it off the top of my head, if I may.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is, and I believe you must be misled
12 by what Mr. Harmon said earlier. There's no break. He also earlier said
13 he will decide in the next break. This is the end of our day, if we are
14 not going to sit in the afternoon. So that response from Mr. Harmon I'm
15 going to have to ask for before we break today because there's no other
16 break we are going to have.
17 Now, you are not going to get any break also to look for that
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm somewhat taken aback. I do have
20 to admit that. I have something in my head that I can't present without
21 arguments, but I think this may be relevant for the procedure that we
22 shall probably using in this courtroom for quite sometime given the
23 importance of these documents. I think we should all avoid premature
24 decisions without clear positions. For the first time we are now facing
25 the situation where Mr. Harmon is proposing something -- by the way I'm
1 not sure if we are still in private session or not.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon proposing something that
4 is part of this body of documents and where I think the point in time at
5 which he obtained these documents is not a sufficient standard. That's
6 my position.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what is the sufficient standard?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I asked you earlier. What is the
10 sufficient standard?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe -- I believe I think the
12 ruling is as clear on that, and I would be speculating which is something
13 that I would like to avoid, but I can't keep all these things in my head
14 right now, but it is my opinion that it is not sufficient for a standard
15 to be established for the Prosecutor to demonstrate the point in time at
16 which they obtained a certain document. I think other circumstances must
17 be demonstrated as well.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You got to tell me which circumstances, sir,
19 because I'm trying to say to you, Mr. Lukic, that as I understand, and I
20 think we had a written decision about this issue not very long ago, and
21 what you referred to as the Prlic decision, I suppose. Now, the standard
22 there was it's got to be fresh evidence, and the party proposing to bring
23 that fresh evidence or, specifically the Prosecution, must show that the
24 they've recently acquired the document, that they didn't have it during
25 the time when they were -- during the Prosecution's case, and I thought
1 that, and I still think that this is what Mr. Harmon is saying, that he
2 wants to introduce an entry from the Mladic diary which the parties
3 received now during the Defence case. Now, you are saying that's not
4 sufficient, and I'm quite prepared to understand that. I also don't
5 remember everything. Now, you have to remind us what other criteria are
6 there in that decision. Because to my mind it looks like it is -- this
7 is the major thing and perhaps almost the only requirement, but there may
8 be others, I don't know. But then you have got to tell us.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm in your hands. I cannot for the
10 time being take my objection back. It is your ruling, and then perhaps I
11 can additionally furnish further arguments. I do not mean to stall this
12 procedure in any way, that is certain, but may it please be given a
13 chance to perhaps expand at greater length on my other arguments later
14 on. At this point in time, I'm not able to provide a full argument, and
15 I'm reluctant to allow this to be taken as my final position. I do have
16 to apologise in advance for any discrepancies that my submission may
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harmon, you are not able to deal with other
19 things that are not controversial and come back to this later?
20 MR. HARMON: Yes, I am, Your Honour but it takes --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I think the parties need to argue the
22 point fully before the ruling is made.
23 MR. HARMON: Perhaps it would be, I made submissions on three
24 other documents.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I'm saying.
1 MR. HARMON: Perhaps I can make similar submissions on this
2 document and --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But this document seems to be different from the
4 other documents.
5 MR. HARMON: It is, Your Honour. Many of the arguments what -- I
6 could make some fresh evidence arguments on this document as well.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you had.
8 MR. HARMON: Well, we -- there's no question that we received
9 this and it is fresh evidence.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
11 MR. HARMON: No question about that.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic says that's not the only criteria.
13 MR. HARMON: I know. But let me just expanded further, perhaps
14 without the -- I made other submissions why the previous documents were
15 relevant and important. I make similar submissions as to this particular
16 document in addition to which -- so that would include the interest of
17 justice among other. So I make those submissions as well.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I need to say, you know, that procedure is
19 followed is also in the interest of justice.
20 MR. HARMON: Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I think there is a fundamental difference
22 between those three documents and this document.
23 MR. HARMON: I agree. I agree, Your Honour. I completely agree.
24 This is a document that all the parties received after the Prosecution
25 had rested its case.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
2 MR. HARMON: We agree with each other, Your Honour. I think what
3 Mr. Lukic is trying to suggest is that in addition to the timeliness
4 issue on this, I need to demonstrate that it is in the interest of
5 justice and why it is relevant, and I am prepared to make the arguments
6 that I made as to relevance and the interest of justice also apply to
7 this document, so just trying to see if I can move these proceedings on a
8 bit faster otherwise I will --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I will tell you, I do not think relevance and
10 interest of justice are necessarily part of the fresh evidence argument.
11 Those are parts of admissibility. Rule 89. They must be relevant,
12 anything that is introduced, it must pass the relevance muster before it
13 can be admitted. So we understand it is relevant, we understand -- and,
14 of course, it is in the interest of justice that the trial is being held
15 to get as much information about the allegations as possible. What I
16 hear Mr. Lukic saying is that -- over and above all that, according to
17 the Prlic decision, you have to have other criteria in addition to the
18 fresh evidence requirement. He is unable to tell us what those are
19 because he needs time to do his research, and that's why I was asking you
20 if you can't deal with the things that you can deal with while he finds
21 this argument, and we can rule on it later.
22 MR. HARMON: I will do that, Your Honour, I will come back to
23 this document.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. HARMON: I understand that we will break -- will we break at
1 the normal time, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will break at the normal time, but then we are
3 going to ask Mr. Harmon to give us an answer to what he promised to tell
5 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour is aware, I haven't advanced much
6 further than I started.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you are likely to take more than two days?
8 MR. HARMON: I have -- I can certainly try my best to finish
9 today but.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've got five minutes left.
11 MR. HARMON: I've got five minutes. Let me deal with the next
12 document in five minutes and then we can re-assess. If I could have 65
13 ter 06399 on the screen.
14 Q. Sir, first of all let me begin by identifying what this document
15 is. This is a document from the 27th Motorised Brigade command to the
16 2nd Motorised Brigade commander. It is entitled "Information From
17 Subordinate Commands and Units" and it is also entitled "The General
18 Situation and Results Achieved by the 1st Krajina Corps."
19 MR. HARMON: Can we go to the end of the document.
20 Q. And you see a signature and a name at the end of the document,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And who is that, sir?
24 A. I don't know him, and I'm not familiar with the establishment
25 post held by Mr. Ranko Ignjatic. He is the one who is certifying the
1 authenticity of the copy.
2 Q. Now, sir, I want to direct your attention to certain passages in
3 this document.
4 MR. HARMON: If we could first of all go to page 3 of the English
5 just to see what the chapeau of this discussion is. It's page 3 of the
6 English and insofar as the B/C/S, I believe it is on the first page.
7 Q. Okay. This is the chapeau of the discussion that we are going to
8 be focusing on. It's the functioning of logistic support, the
9 significance of effective RiK, which is command and control, and the
10 completion of combat tasks. Now, in the first paragraph of this -- let
11 me just read this to you. It says:
12 "Besides the professional skills and unit leaders and commanders
13 and unit commands as a whole and the level of training of personnel, the
14 morale and logistics support of the units and the functioning of civilian
15 government institutions in the corps zone of responsibility and the
16 entire territory of the Republika Srpska significantly influenced
17 effectiveness of command and control."
18 MR. HARMON: Now, if we could go to the next page in the English.
19 And the next page in the Serbian language version. I am sorry, page 4 of
20 the English version. We need to go to the next page in the English
21 version. I believe we need to go to the next page in B/C/S version as
23 Q. All right, sir, I want to direct the Court's attention to the
24 middle of the English version. It says in this -- it should say in your
25 version as well, sir:
1 "Establishment reserves in food, clothing, ammunition, fuel,
2 spare parts, and other necessities were used up a long time ago. The
3 daily food requirements of the corps units amounts to 150 to 190 tonnes
4 of combat rations." It goes on to say "a minimum of 13.5 tonnes or a
5 maximum of 40.5 tonnes of fuel, 600 kilograms of medicines, and about
6 800.000 to 1.000.000 rounds of various kinds of ammunition."
7 And if you go down to the bottom of the English, please, it says,
8 and we'll have to turn the page in a just a minute, it's the last
9 sentence -- fragment of the sentence.
10 "With only about 100 tons of fuel" -- if we can go to the next
11 page in English -- "available monthly or three to four tonnes daily, it
12 is difficult to carry out tasks in peacetime, let alone in time of war.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
16 You've heard what I was saying to you, but the matter stands
17 adjourned to tomorrow - what is the date tomorrow? - 16th, 9.00 in the
18 morning, Courtroom II. Court adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th of July,
21 2010, at 9.00 a.m.