1 Friday, 16 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DAVID: Good morning everyone in and around the courtroom.
6 Please, Registry, call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Momcilo Perisic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE DAVID: May we have for today the composition of the
12 parties, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. HARMON: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
14 counsel. Good morning everyone in and around the courtroom. Mark Harmon
15 and Laurent Vuillemin for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much.
17 For the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
19 morning to everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Perisic is represented today
20 by Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, Tina Drolec, Alex Fielding, and
21 Oonagh O'Connor.
22 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much. In the absence of
23 Judge Moloto, the Chamber will sit today 15 bis. And also, I would like
24 to give to the parties some thoughts on to how should we proceed today.
25 Yesterday, the issue of fresh evidence was raised by Mr. Lukic,
1 and as I recall well, Mr. Lukic said that he would like to add some
2 arguments to the case he presented. And, likewise, Mr. Harmon for the
3 Prosecution said also that he would like to address the issue.
4 So the Chamber has decided before they continue with the
5 interrogation of the witness that was carried on yesterday by Mr. Harmon
6 at the end of the session, the Chamber, I repeat, would like the parties
7 to address the issue. I will recommend to the parties to be very
8 concise, very precise, and also very brief so we could then have the
9 arguments so the ruling of the Chamber could be done. Thank you very
11 Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we should be in
13 private session for the arguments that we launched yesterday. I'm not
14 sure, however, with regard to the nature of the documents that will be
15 discussed, I believe that we should be in private session.
16 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon?
17 MR. HARMON: I have no objection.
18 JUDGE DAVID: Registrar, please let's go into private session.
19 [Private session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honours, my
22 arguments deal with Mr. Harmon's proposal with regard to XN 358. On this
23 occasion, I would like to state that we as Mr. Perisic's Defence agree
24 that Mladic's diaries is new information that reached the Prosecution
25 after the end of the Prosecution case. If the Prosecution wishes to use
1 Mladic's diaries, it has to file a request in keeping with the Prlic
2 decision by the Appeals Chamber on the 26th of February, 2010, para 23.
3 If the Prosecution can prove extraordinary circumstances in the
4 interest of justice and the importance of such new documents, the
5 Trial Chamber can then either agree to accept or refuse the use of such
6 documents. In keeping with the same decision from the Prlic case, in
7 each individual case, the Prosecution has to file a new request which
8 means that the Chamber's ruling has to be handed down from case to case,
9 from document to document, and this is also contained in the same
10 decision in the Prlic case. Likewise, the decision of our Trial Chamber
11 on page 10213, dated 26 February 2010, you, Your Honours, were of a
12 position that such Prosecution requests have to be dealt with on a
13 case-by-case basis. Page 10213, lines 6 through 8, which is where you
14 rendered your decision on one such Prosecution's request. Thank you.
15 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
16 Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I agree that the Prlic decision is the
18 guiding decision in this case. I agree with Mr. Lukic that the decisions
19 in respect of each document have to be done on a case-by-case basis and
20 on a document-by-document basis, so we have no disagreement. And I made
21 submissions yesterday in respect of -- factual submissions in respect of
22 this particular document. I would just like to make some additional
23 factual submissions, if the Court deems it necessary.
24 Let me just say in respect of this document: We received this
25 document on the 29th of March, 2010. We disclosed it to the Defence by
1 CD on the 9th of April, 2010, in other words, ten days after we received
2 it. The diary is obviously in a language the accused understood and in a
3 language that many members of his team understood. So there's no
4 disadvantage to the Defence in respect of the language of the document
5 itself. Indeed, we took a lengthy recess for the Defence and for the
6 Prosecution to analyse these documents.
7 We're offering this document now because it directly contradicts
8 the evidence that has been presented by the witness. It's our submission
9 there's no prejudice to the Defence whatsoever in the use of this
10 document. We disclosed it, as I say, to the Defence on the
11 9th of April, 2010. We are seeking its admission in excess of three
12 months after we disclosed it to the Defence. The content of the diary in
13 substance -- the diary entry in substance is similar to three documents
14 that we discussed yesterday, and that were 65 ter 6399, 65 ter 7346, and
15 65 ter 8948, so the substance is essentially the same. And it's our
16 submission that there would be no prejudice to the Defence whatsoever
17 from the admission of this document. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now that Mr. Harmon has just
20 explained that he wishes to use these documents in order to refute the
21 testimony of witness Kovacevic, we agree that the documents should indeed
22 be used for that purpose.
23 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I don't mean to
24 interrupt Your Honours, but I'm seeking the admission of this
25 document - and if I spoke and mislead counsel, I apologise - but I'm
1 seeking this document not only to impeach the witness but for the
2 substance of the contents of the document. So I'm seeking it for both
4 JUDGE DAVID: [Microphone not activated] ... if there is agreement
5 of the parties [Microphone not activated] the Chamber has --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the presiding, judge, please.
7 JUDGE DAVID: If there is agreement for the parties, let me say
8 that the Chamber has studied the case yesterday and conciles very much
9 with both positions, both of the Defence and the Prosecution, so it is
10 very important that, in introducing new evidence, fresh evidence, the
11 justification should be made as a resolution cited by this Chamber by
12 Mr. Lukic on a case-to-case basis; and also, let me remind all of you of
13 the requirements of paragraph 24 and 25 of the Prlic decision. If that
14 is the case, then we will call on the witness, and so we will proceed as
15 you both have agree, and the ruling of the Chamber have approved.
16 So, Mr. Registrar, let's bring the witness into the court.
17 Let's go into open session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON: While we are waiting for the witness, I would like
23 to regulate the status of the last exhibit that we were discussing. It
24 was 65 ter 6399. I had concluded with that exhibit yesterday, and then
25 we adjourned. I would like to move for its admission and ask that it be
1 given an exhibit number.
2 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Registrar, let's admit the document into
3 evidence and give an exhibit number, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
5 Exhibit P2916. Thank you.
6 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, for purposes of the
9 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regards to the position -- I hope we remain
11 in private session. With regards -- it's okay, I can do it generically
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the position that Mr. Harmon has
15 taken concerning the admission of these documents, to the extent that
16 Mr. Harmon seeks to introduce these documents for purposes of
17 impeachment, we have no disagreement. With regard to them being
18 introduced for other purposes, which Mr. Harmon has indicated that he
19 does intend to do, we do have disagreement with regard to that. We do
20 not believe that the threshold requirements have been made, and so the
21 Chamber is very clear about this because it will most probably be the
22 subject matter of some further litigation. We wish to lodge our
23 objection with regard to that particular part of Mr. Harmon's
24 presentation. For purposes of impeachment, we have no disagreement. For
25 purposes of other purposes, we do have disagreement.
1 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon.
2 MR. HARMON: I have no comments, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE DAVID: We take note of the objection, and if there is
4 further discrepancies, the Chamber will rule on it. Thank you very much.
5 MR. GUY SMITH: I appreciate the Chamber's concern.
6 JUDGE DAVID: Good morning, General. Let me remind you that you
7 are still bound by --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.
9 JUDGE DAVID: -- your declaration in relation to the customary
10 nature, and that we hope you had rested enough so to be also today very
11 precise, concise, and just answering the precise points posed by both
12 Prosecution and Defence when the re-examination comes. Thank you very
14 Mr. Harmon.
15 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
16 WITNESS: DUSAN KOVACEVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, General Kovacevic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. We were examining yesterday and I want to continue to examine
22 your assertion that by the end of 1993 the VRS had sufficient quantities
23 of ammunition and fuel.
24 MR. HARMON: If I could have XN 358 on the monitor, please.
25 Well, I need the English version on the monitor.
1 Yes, thank you.
2 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon, shall we go into private session?
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, we should be in private session. Sorry.
4 JUDGE DAVID: Let's be in private session, please, Mr. Registrar.
5 [Private session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
7 MR. HARMON:
8 Q. All right. Sir, what you have in front of you is an entry in
9 General Mladic's diary, an entry of Tuesday the 17th of August, 1993, and
10 it's a meeting, as you can see, of the inner circle of the
11 VRS Main Staff.
12 Sir, did you attend any Main Staff meetings?
13 A. Occasionally they did invite me from time to time.
14 Q. Were you considered part of the inner circle of the
15 VRS Main Staff?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, this is a meeting, an internal meeting where these -- the
18 people who were participating in this meeting are discussing topics that
19 are listed on the agenda in front of you, item number 1 of which includes
20 the situation in the Army of the RS, problems and how to solve them. And
21 we can see on page 1 one of the participants was Colonel Salapura.
22 MR. HARMON: If we could go to the next page.
23 Q. We will see that General Gvero was a participant in these
24 meetings. And -- I just want to quickly go through these pages so we can
25 see who the participants were. If we go to the next page we see two
1 persons named, one of whom is Colonel Sreto Kovacevic, and another is a
2 Lieutenant-Colonel Dubovac.
3 MR. HARMON: And, finally, if we can go to the last page.
4 Q. We can see that a Colonel Miljanovic and General Milovanovic were
5 noted, at least their comments were noted, during this meeting. Sir, I
6 want to focus on the comments of Colonel Miljanovic on the
7 17th of August, 1993. Do you see -- and read that portion. Do you see
8 where he states that the VRS logistics support is a problem as a whole,
9 and he goes on to say that:
10 "Materiel reserves have been exhausted, feeding the army is a
11 problem, as are fuel and ammunition."
12 You see that, sir?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. From this document we can see that internally amongst the
15 VRS Main Staff there were concerns and acknowledgments that the materiel
16 reserves of the VRS as of August 17th had been exhausted; is that
18 A. I believe that what is written in here is correct. However, I
19 can explain, if you give me a couple of minutes, and I can corroborate my
20 statement that there was enough ammunition.
21 Q. If you just -- let me just go through some more documents. You
22 can make an explanation at the conclusion of that.
23 MR. HARMON: I'd like to turn to 65 ter -- no, I'm sorry, could I
24 have an exhibit number for that document.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I would suggest that the witness be
1 allowed to answer the question so that there's sufficient -- there's a
2 sufficient correlation to the information that's being discussed and this
3 particular exhibit that it attends to. If Mr. Harmon is planning on
4 showing the witness a number of documents thereafter, and we get a
5 lengthy answer, I don't think that's necessarily an appropriate fashion
6 to give clarity to the Chamber as to what is being discussed. There's
7 also another problem with what has been done here which is that
8 Mr. Harmon is asking for the witness to speculate with regard to what is
9 involved in this document.
10 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I intend to ask the witness, after I
12 show him a series of documents, if he -- and I will give him an
13 opportunity to comment on the documents I show him. I intend to show him
14 about two or three more documents and then I'll give him an opportunity
15 to comment.
16 JUDGE DAVID: At page 9, line 14, the witness said:
17 "I believe that what is written here is correct, however, I can
18 explain, if you give me a couple of minutes, and I can corroborate my
19 statement that there was enough ammunition."
20 Here we have, I believe, an option: Either to let the witness
21 clarify a given issue posed by you, Mr. Harmon, which will add clarity to
22 the situation, I imagine, or to later on give an overall explanation
23 which may indeed lack clarity and precision.
24 So my suggestion to you, Mr. Harmon, is to let the witness -- if
25 there are pertinent comments, to do it on the occasion of the specific
2 And I would like to make a general comment that is not giving any
3 one of the parties any direction, but I our transcripts, I was going
4 through the transcript yesterday and days before, and it's becoming like
5 a novel, you know, instead of very precise questions and very precise
6 answers, it's going into a narrative of a narrative. And I think that
7 for all the literary merits that it may have, we have a mandate here to
8 be precise and to be concise and to be brief. Thank you very much.
9 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.
10 Q. General, if you'd like to give your explanation?
11 A. Your Honours, thank you very much for having given me the
12 opportunity to provide an explanation to this central issue of my whole
13 testimony. And allow me to remind this Honourable Trial Chamber that
14 from 1972 up to 1992, for the whole 20 years, I was in charge of the
15 ammunition depot in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in addition to
16 all of the other parts of the infrastructure. I would also like to
17 remind you that I participated and managed, towards the end of 1991 and
18 the beginning of 1992, the mobilisation of depots --
19 MR. HARMON: I'm going to object, the witness was going to give
20 an explanation why he thought there was sufficient ammunition. I didn't
21 ask him to give a description of his background. That's not responsive
22 to the question.
23 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Witness, please be concise and try to respond
24 directly to the questions asked, because then if the parties are asking
25 you questions, please do respond to the point. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. To be very specific:
2 In the Rudo ammunition depot, in the Visegrad ammunition depot, in the
3 Ustikolina ammunition depot, and in the Renovica ammunition depot,
4 towards the end of 1991, there was anything between 16.000 and 19.000
5 tonnes of ammunition which belonged to the reserves of the
6 Supreme Command of the JNA. About 50 per cent of that quantity -- or
7 rather, between 8-, and 9.000 tonnes of ammunition from those depots were
8 transported to the territory of Yugoslavia. About 8.000 tonnes remained
9 either in the depots or most of it was distributed across the territory
10 and stored in somewhat smaller depots. In Pecine, in caves, forests, and
11 in some secret depots.
12 In the month of November, I checked all those when I inspected
13 the units deployed in the territory as a member of the commission that
14 I've already spoken about earlier, and then we were able to confirm that
15 in the general area of Podrinje there were about 8.000 tons of various
16 kinds of ammunition.
17 The second piece of information that I would like to share with
18 you is the fact that in the Mrkonjic Grad depot, I personally saw that
19 about 1.000 tonnes of different calibre of ammunition were stored there
20 after having been transported from Slovenia and Croatia. About 1500
21 tonnes of ammunition had been brought over there from the Konjic and
22 Gabela [phoen] depots. Also, about 1.000 tonnes of ammunition was
23 transported there from the territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 which had previously been stored in the JNA depots, and, subsequently,
25 all of that was taken over by the VRS.
1 In the course of the war, nobody ever responded to my request and
2 explain what had happened to that ammunition. Everybody knew that that
3 ammunition had been distributed across the territory and that that
4 ammunition was under the control of the local brigades and the local
5 authorities. The prime minister himself, Mr. Lukic, he knew that very
7 After the signing of the Dayton Accord, the peace forces located
8 in the territory of Sokolac municipality in a village between Sokolac and
9 Olovo, several dozens of hundreds of tonnes, and if I can remember
10 properly, over 300 tonnes of ammunition and explosive, which proves that
11 I am right. And this information was publicised by SFOR members. They
12 destroyed all that in a cave in the area.
13 When such a huge quantity exploded, it caused a small-scale
14 earthquake, and the president of Sokolac municipality protested publicly
15 on TV. He lodged a protest to the SFOR command, stating that the
16 detonation had an impact on the source of the Bistrica River which was
17 suppling Sokolac with water at the time.
18 In the course of 1996 and 1997, SFOR units found huge quantities
19 of ammunition hidden in the territory of Republika Srpska and confiscated
20 all those. This is all a fact which can easily be checked.
21 JUDGE DAVID: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you very
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you count the facilities --
24 JUDGE DAVID: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Harmon.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.
2 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you.
4 Q. General, let me just ask you some questions about what you just
5 said. Okay. You said there were secret depots and you checked those as
6 a member of the commission that I had spoken about earlier. Which
7 commission are you referring to, sir?
8 A. I believe that I explained yesterday --
9 Q. Just give me the name of the commission, if you would, sir. What
10 was the name of the commission?
11 A. The commission was established by the commander of the Main Staff
12 of the VRS, General Ratko Mladic. It was headed by Colonel Ilic, an
13 operative officer within the staff, and I was a member of that
14 commission. The task of that commission was to tour all the VRS units
15 that were being set up or had already been set up by this time. My task
16 was to determine the situation regarding the materiel reserves under all
17 of the logistical aspects. I can also explain about the secret depots if
18 you'd like me to.
19 Q. All right. Well, let me just --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
21 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness addressed this on day two
23 of his testimony, but just to be precise for the sake of the transcript,
24 maybe we should specify the year.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. Sir, specify the year, please.
2 A. That was in September 1992. That's when the commission began its
3 work. We concluded our work sometime in late November, 1992.
4 Q. Okay. And was that the last time that you personally inspected
5 those secret depots and locations that you've just described?
6 A. At that level of complexity, yes, only then. I did, later, tour
7 individual locations though.
8 Q. Okay. Well, we're talking about the sufficiency of ammunition,
9 sir, at the end of 1993. And I would like now to take you to another
10 document, if I could.
11 MR. HARMON: If I could have 65 ter 7346 on the monitor, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
13 JUDGE DAVID: There is no interpretation to what Mr. Lukic has
15 MR. HARMON: I didn't hear either. I did not get an
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this one of the three documents
18 that Mr. Harmon mentioned yesterday; and, if so, may we know the reason
19 for its use?
20 MR. HARMON: The reason -- I'm sorry.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE DAVID: Before Mr. Harmon speaks, let me remind you that
23 judge -- my colleague and myself recalled that we have accepted by
24 majority yesterday these documents with the dissent of Judge Moloto. I
25 just want to remind the parties of that situation.
1 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, let me proceed with this document. General, this is a
3 document -- we'll identify the document first. This is a document that
4 is dated the 1st of November, 1993. It's from the VRS Main Staff. It is
5 a top secret, and it is addressed to the government of the
6 Republika Srpska. And the topic is, "Problems of Logistic Support for
7 the Army."
8 MR. HARMON: If we could go to the end of the document, we'll see
9 who the author of this document was.
10 Q. You see a name and a signature. Can you tell us whose name it is
11 and whose signature it is?
12 A. Yes. Commander Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.
13 MR. HARMON: If we could go back to the -- could we go to the
14 second page of the English, please. And the second page of the -- I'm
15 sorry, the first page of the B/C/S.
16 Okay, Your Honour --
17 JUDGE DAVID: Are we in private session?
18 MR. HARMON: We should be in public session on this.
19 JUDGE DAVID: Okay. Let's go into open session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. General, I hope that I am correct, but at the bottom of the
24 Serbian language version of this document it should read -- it starts, a
1 "The materiel reserves of the army..."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, I'm directing Your Honours'
5 attention to the second paragraph in the English language version.
6 Q. This says that the materiel -- General Mladic tells the
7 government that:
8 "The materiel reserves of the army, as the main source of supply
9 from the beginning of the war until the present, have been exhausted ..."
10 MR. HARMON: And if we could go to the next page of the Serbian
11 language version.
12 Q. And you'll see, General, that the first bullet point item down
13 below that paragraph following the words, The current problems of
14 logistics support, besides the ones listed, are as follows:
15 "Out of a total of 23 items, the army has no reserves for 15 of
17 And it lists various perishable products. Then if we go two
18 paragraphs down, he says to the government:
19 "Of 148 types of ammunition, 35 per cent of these, the reserves
20 of artillery and PA ammunition, is zero."
21 Can you tell us what "PA" stands for?
22 A. It stands for anti-aircraft ammunition.
23 MR. HARMON: Okay. If we could go to the next page in English,
25 Q. And on your document this should be visible to you, sir. The
1 penultimate bullet point says:
2 "The reserves of tires, batteries, covers for vehicle, spare
3 parts for combat," and it goes on to list a series of items, "are on a
4 zero level or on minimum."
5 And finally he says:
6 "The level of supplies of medicines, sanitary materials, and
7 other items are below the necessary minimum."
8 So in this document we can see that General Mladic is addressing
9 the government, expressing that there are in fact serious deficiencies in
10 the reserves that are available to him; isn't that correct?
11 A. It is Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic that vouches for this
12 information. Nevertheless, when this data was entered into his report,
13 the commodity reserves were not taken into account, and that was where
14 the army's reserves of foodstuffs, medicine, and fuel were kept, and
15 everything else, all of their basic necessities with the exception of
16 ammunition. Furthermore, the ministries of finance or Defence were not
17 consulted either, and obviously their information might have affected the
18 totals as given here. They could have told him, General, sir, your
19 information is not correct.
20 So what this reflects is information as known by the Main Staff
21 but not as known by other participants who may have had helpful
22 information to contribute to this review.
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, could I have two exhibit numbers. I
24 failed to ask for an exhibit number for XN 358, and could I also have an
25 exhibit number for this particular exhibit.
1 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall -- the 65 ter
3 XN 358 shall be assigned Exhibit P2917. 65 ter document 7346 shall be
4 assigned Exhibit P2918. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you, Registrar.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. General Kovacevic, at the end of 1993, the future supply of
8 ammunition was a matter of critical importance for the VRS and for your
9 government; isn't that correct?
10 A. I think that only applied to certain types of ammunition. To be
11 used for replenishing the reserves of the Main Staff. It was units up to
12 brigade or corps level that used that type of the ammunition.
13 Q. Okay. Now, what types of ammunition? When you say, I think that
14 only applied to certain types of ammunition that were of critical
15 importance to the VRS and to your government, what types of ammunition
16 then were of critical importance?
17 A. 7.62 millimetre.
18 Q. Any other types?
19 A. 12.7 millimetre for anti-aircraft guns.
20 Q. So those were only two types of critical ammunition that were of
21 concern to your government and to the VRS? Is that what I understand
22 your testimony to be?
23 MR. HARMON: Just wait a minute, Witness, just -- I'm sorry.
24 There's a conversation up here. If you just wait a minute.
25 Please give your answer.
1 Oh, I see Mr. Lukic is --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am standing because I think there
3 is a discrepancy between the questions and answers. I think it's
4 something to do with the interpretation and could Mr. Harmon please
5 re-ask his question just to make sure there's no confusion. What exactly
6 does he mean by critical ammunition and what exactly does the witness
7 mean? I suppose the purpose is to find out what ammunition, what type of
8 ammunition was in short supply. There seems to be a bit of confusion
9 that has arisen from the interpretation.
10 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon, before you answer the question, these
11 two documents, P2917, should it go under seal?
12 MR. HARMON: P2917 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harmon, please.
14 MR. HARMON: 2917 should be under seal, Your Honour; and 2918,
15 there's no reason that it be under seal.
16 JUDGE DAVID: Okay. Thank you very much.
17 Please continue.
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.
19 Q. So, General, let me just start again. I want to be perfectly
20 clear. I asked you a question at page 18, line 14:
21 "At the end of 1993, the future supply of ammunition was a matter
22 of critical importance for the VRS and your government."
23 Your answer was:
24 "I think that only applied to certain types of ammunition."
25 Then I asked you what types of ammunition that applied to.
1 And you've given us 7.62 and 12.7 millimetres.
2 And my question to you is: Are those the only two types of
3 ammunition that that were of critical importance to the the VRS and to
4 your government from -- for the period of 1993 on to 1995? Or, sir, was
5 it the case that all types of ammunition were of critical importance if
6 the VRS was to prosecute the war to its conclusion?
7 A. The type of ammunition most badly needed by the army was the
8 7.62 millimetre for the automatic rifle, the Kalashnikov; for the
9 semi-automatic, 7.62. For the M-84 machine-gun, again 7.62. These are
10 weapons that were part of the armoury of the soldiers along the front
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
13 last sentence. The interpreter did not understand.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was some types of artillery
15 ammunition too, such as the 130 and 122 millimetres. Nevertheless, one
16 believed that the army was supposed to stop any attacks, organise the
17 defence, and resume the peace talks --
18 Q. Sir, excuse me, I'm going to interrupt you.
19 A. So the production at Vogosca --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harmon, please.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Sir, I asked you about the types of ammunition that were
23 critical. I merely asked to you identify those. I want to carry on, and
24 I would like to conclude today. Sir, I would like to show you another
25 document then.
1 MR. HARMON: If I could P2766 on the monitor. P2766.
2 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon, would you go into -- I was advised that
3 this document is confidential.
4 MR. HARMON: I was just checking on that, Your Honour. I had not
5 been advised that's the case. Yes, then, Your Honour, we should. Thank
7 JUDGE DAVID: We shall go into private session.
8 [Private session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session, Your Honours.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. Sir, let's start by identifying this document. This is a
12 document that's dated the 15th of May, 1994, from President Karadzic to
13 General Perisic, personally. It's directed to the General Staff of the
14 Yugoslav Army. And you can see that in the top portion of the document.
15 I would like to direct your attention, sir, to a --
16 MR. HARMON: The Court's attention, first of all, Your Honour.
17 If we could go to the bottom of the English version.
18 Q. And in your version, do you see a portion that starts:
19 "Our army is exhausted and stretched"?
20 It should be toward the bottom of your -- do you see that portion
21 of the document, General Kovacevic?
22 A. Yes, I found that.
23 Q. President Karadzic informs General Perisic five months into 1994:
24 "Our army is exhausted and stretched out over a long front line.
25 This too could be overcome, however, but the shortage of every" - and I
1 emphasise the word "every" here, sir - "type of ammunition cannot be
2 overcome but through the provision of ammunition. At some military
3 lines, our soldiers are awaiting enemy infantry attacks with just one or
4 two ammunition clips in their automatic rifles respectively."
5 So this document, General Kovacevic, from the president of the
6 Republika Srpska to the chief of the VJ General Staff General Perisic
7 says that there's a shortage of every type of ammunition. And every type
8 of ammunition -- strike that.
9 Can you comment on that, sir? Is General -- is
10 President Karadzic mistaken as well as General Mladic was previously and
11 General Milovanovic was previously?
12 A. I cannot accept the wording here that all types of ammunition
13 were exhausted. Karadzic himself claims that there is ammunition but no
14 more than two rounds per soldier. It is entirely impossible to assume
15 that all - and when I say "all," I mean really all - reserves of
16 ammunition had been exhausted by this time. That is simply not true.
17 There were some types of ammunition that posted a problem. That much is
18 true. The extra supplies that we got were a bare minimum, nevertheless
19 one cannot use a blanket statement like this and apply it to all
20 different types of ammunition.
21 MR. HARMON: Okay. Well, I'm finished with this document,
22 Your Honour.
23 Q. Let me ask you, General Kovacevic, from August of 1994 until the
24 end of the war, that was a period when there was the largest consumption
25 of combat materiel, ammunition and the like; isn't that correct?
1 A. Yes. The consumption was greater than in the previous period.
2 Q. When you spoke to --
3 MR. HARMON: Actually, I think we can go back now into public
5 JUDGE DAVID: Public session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Sir, when you spoke with Office of the Prosecutor representatives
10 in 2007, you made the following statement, and I want to see if you stand
11 by this. You said:
12 "Especially" --
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I just -- the page reference,
15 MR. HARMON: Okay. It's in page 61 of 2007, the second
16 interview. I'm referring to page 61.
17 Q. Sir, you said:
18 "Especially in 1995, more combat materiel was spent than in 1994,
19 especially compared to 1993 because during this period, from August 1994
20 until the end of the war, the biggest combat operations took place.
21 There was Podrinje, Srebrenica, there was the defence of the western
23 And you described, then, some additional areas of combat
24 operations. Do you still stand by that statement?
25 A. Yes, that's true.
1 Q. At page 62, you also -- of that interview - for counsel's
2 benefit, 62 of the English of the same interview.
3 You said:
4 "I'm going back to what I said, August 1994 til the end of the
5 war in 1995, that was the period when the greatest combat operations were
6 carried out with the most resources spent, fuel, victims, and everything
7 else in that period."
8 Sir, do you still stand by that statement?
9 A. Yes, that's also correct.
10 Q. Okay. Now, we talked yesterday about the embargo, the economic
11 embargo that was commenced on the 4th of August, 1994, as a result of the
12 Vance Owen -- the Contact Group plan not being accepted. In fact,
13 despite that embargo, General Kovacevic, goods flowed across the
14 Drina River from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into Republika Srpska
15 every day, didn't they?
16 A. I know that some goods did flow. For example, oil, cigarettes,
17 some types of foods and other goods.
18 Q. Well, in addition to those types of goods, military goods flowed
19 across the border. And, in fact, the embargo in respect of the
20 transportation of military goods from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
21 into the Republika Srpska was an illusion?
22 A. I can explain by way of saying that that's not correct.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I am commenting on the president's document with regard to that.
25 Q. Okay. Are you saying that -- let me see if I can understand your
1 answer. Did military goods, during the time of the embargo - I'm talking
2 about military goods including ammunition, artillery shells, mines, and
3 the like - did they -- were they transported across the Drina River from
4 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into the Republika Srpska?
5 A. I'm sure that those types of goods could not flow freely across
6 the border, because at every border crossing there were international
7 monitors deployed. It would have been absolutely impossible, and it is a
8 full statement on anybody's part if they say that such goods could flow
10 There were attempts to transport ammunition from Serbia to
11 Republika Srpska; however, I don't know whether that was indeed done or,
12 if it was, who did it. My participation in the whole matter was defined
13 pursuant to an order by Radovan Karadzic, the then-president of the
14 republic. And together with some other people, we were supposed to
15 establish whether it was possible to transport ammunition from Serbia to
16 Republika Srpska across the existing border crossings. And the dead-line
17 we were given was seven days.
18 I personally drafted a report for President Karadzic in which I
19 informed him that it was impossible to transport any convoys across the
20 border, and I also stated what control bodies operated on those border
21 crossings, but I also said that there might be somebody who could
22 transport one, two, three, our four trucks at the most. I told him that
23 I didn't want to continue being involved in that job because I did not
24 have any authority either over the police or the military. And then he
25 said, Okay, the military will do that. And that's where my knowledge
1 about the whole matter stops.
2 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that from the time of the embargo,
3 August the 4th, 1994, you are not aware of any ammunition, artillery
4 shells, mines being transported from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
5 into the Republika Srpska?
6 A. Yes, I did learn at the session of the commission that we
7 discussed about that.
8 Q. You mean, you learned that at the session of the commission
9 you've just described, that some ammunition had come across the
10 Drina River from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into the RS? Is that
11 when you first learned of this development?
12 A. Yes. We received such information, and we entered the
13 information into our own reports.
14 Q. And the commission that you talked about was a commission that
15 was formed on the 20th of June, 1995; correct?
16 A. Yes, I believe that you're right.
17 MR. HARMON: Let's take a look at, then -- if I could have P --
18 I'm sorry, P2726, please. Actually, let me start with P2851.
19 I need to go into private session. Apparently this is
20 confidential. This is under seal, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE DAVID: Private session, please.
22 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 MR. HARMON:
21 Q. Take a look at that document, if you will, General Kovacevic.
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. What can you tell us about this document?
1 A. He -- the document is self-explanatory, and no further comment
2 is ...
3 Q. All right. The embargo restricted economic transactions, did it
4 not yes?
5 A. Yes, it did. Yes.
6 MR. HARMON: Okay. Could we go to Prosecution Exhibit 1257,
8 Q. Sir, this is a document that is dated the 27th of February, and
9 if you read the first paragraph, it says:
10 "On the basis of ruling conf. number 85-7 of 24/02.1995, the
11 chief of the VJ General Staff, please issue to the 30th Personnel Centre
12 from VP 5292 Mrsac the following:"
13 And it describes 100 rounds of howitzer cannon ammunition, and --
14 do you see that document, sir?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And it says that -- below that, it says, the description of the
17 ordnance, it says that the transport of the ammunition from Kragujevac
18 will be taken over by the owned vehicle. So the owned vehicle that we
19 are talking about is -- I mean -- strike that.
20 This particular ammunition was sent to the VRS in the
21 Republika Srpska, wasn't it?
22 A. The document is actually an order for the ammunition to be handed
23 over to the VRS. However, it doesn't transpire from the document that
24 the order ever materialised.
25 Q. Thank you very much, General.
1 MR. HARMON: I think it's time for the break.
2 JUDGE DAVID: It's time to adjourn. If we are in open session,
3 let's do so. Court adjourns until quarter to 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
6 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon, please continue.
7 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
8 Q. General Kovacevic, what I'd like to do is just show you a series
9 of documents, and I'm going to invite you to comment on them.
10 MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecution Exhibit 2726 on the
11 monitor. This is under seal, I'm told. No, I'm sorry, public. So could
12 this be on the monitor, please.
13 Q. Okay. Sir, this is a document that's dated the
14 19th of June, 1995, and it is addressed to the General Staff of the VJ to
15 the attention of the chief of the General Staff of the VJ. And it is
16 from the Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska. Now, this is a
17 document that, as you can see below, it's a support in ammunition, it's a
18 request. And you'll see --
19 MR. HARMON: If we could go to the second page in the English.
20 Q. Sir, this is a request for various types of ammunition, including
21 a million and a half pieces of 7.62 automatic rifle -- semi-automatic
22 rifle ammunition; and 7.62 machine-gun rifle, 200.000 rounds; and other
23 types of ordnance. And it is a document --
24 MR. HARMON: If you go to the next page in the B/C/S.
25 Q. Can you tell us from -- who is -- who signed this document or
1 who's type-signed as the author of this document?
2 A. The author of the document is Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.
3 MR. HARMON: Could we go to the last page of the English, please.
5 Q. And you'll see that -- actually let me do something else.
6 Can you read --
7 MR. HARMON: This is the wrong page in the English, I apologise.
8 If we could go to the previous page in the English, we'll come back to
9 this page in a moment. Okay.
10 Q. Sir, this is a request, and you'll see at the bottom of the
11 document it says --
12 MR. HARMON: We need to go to the last page in the English.
13 Thank you.
14 Q. You'll see in this document that the General Staff of the
15 Army of Yugoslavia cabinet of the chief of the General Staff has agreed
16 to the request. And I want to correct the translation that appears in
17 this document because the English translation says in the second line of
18 the text, it says:
19 "... inform you that the Chief of the VRS Main Staff ordered,"
20 and that should be VJ instead of VRS.
21 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Lukic can assist me in that, but ...
22 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object to what Mr. Harmon has just
24 said, and that can be found in paragraph 30, line 8. I'm not going to
25 suggest a question to the witness, however, if Mr. Harmon says that it
1 has been approved, could he please be more specific and tell us based on
3 MR. HARMON: Yes. First of all, let's deal with the --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harmon, please.
5 MR. HARMON: Let me deal with one item at a time. I've pointed
6 out an error in the translation, and I have said that this is improperly
7 translated in English to read that "the chief of the VRS Main Staff
8 ordered, Give it to Ratko and have this solved."
9 "VRS" should be "VJ."
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
11 MR. HARMON: Okay. Now.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
13 MR. HARMON: Mr. Lukic asked me on what this is based.
14 Q. Let me ask you, sir, when the chief of -- from this document,
15 General Kovacevic, the chief of -- General Perisic approved this request,
16 didn't he?
17 A. You can see from the document that General Perisic ordered that
18 that should be handed over to Ratko to deal with it. A Ratko who was in
19 charge of dealing with this, that is.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. HARMON: Then we'll move on to the next exhibit. If I could
22 have P --
23 Q. There are two exhibits I'm going to ask you to comment on. I'm
24 going to show them both to you, and then I'm going to invite your
1 MR. HARMON: If I could have, first of all, P2746 on the monitor.
2 And that will be followed by P951. So if we could start with 2746.
3 Q. Sir, this is a document as you can see is dated the
4 7th of October, 1995, and it is a document from the VRS Main Staff. And
5 you can see on the -- the person who sent it is Ratko Mladic. It's a
6 request for ten FAB-275/4. Those are aerial bombs, aren't they?
7 A. I don't know what kind of equipment that is. Anything is
9 Q. Okay. So as the minister of defence you're unfamiliar with what
10 an FAB-275/4 is? You are not familiar with that description?
11 A. I'm sure that that was not part of the armament of the land
12 forces of Republika Srpska, and I don't know that even during the JNA era
13 that was part of the land forces. That must be some sort of lethal
14 weaponry pertaining to the area of anti-aircraft defence, I suppose.
15 Q. Okay. If we take a look at the reference number in the upper
16 left-hand corner, you'll see 03/4-2618, which is the reference number for
17 this document.
18 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to the next page, please, in the
19 English. And I think we're fine on the Serbian language version.
20 Q. You see that there is an entry dated the 7th of October, 1995,
21 that reads:
22 "The Chief of the General Staff VJ has approved for the
23 General Staff of the VRS to be resolved as soon as possible. Please send
24 your reply."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes, I do. It says to the air force and entire aircraft defence
2 sector, the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia approved
3 for the Army Republika Srpska General Staff to be resolved as soon as
4 possible. Feedback is requested. Whether the matter had been dealt with
5 in the air force and anti-aircraft defence command of the
6 Army of Yugoslavia.
7 MR. HARMON: Could we have P951 on the monitor, please.
8 Q. Sir, this is a document that relates to the previous document I
9 showed you. We can see that by the reference number referring to the
10 telegram number 03/4-2618 of 7 October 1995. And in this document, this
11 says that the collection of these FAB-275/4 has been approved and that
12 they can be collected from the 608th Logistics Base. And this is the
13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia General Staff informing the republic --
14 the VRS Main Staff of that fact. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's how I read it.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. HARMON: If we turn to the next document, please. This is
18 P2781, dated the 12th of May, 1995.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an objection.
20 If you could bear with me just for a moment, please.
21 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document shown by Mr. Harmon is
23 one of those that we didn't know anything about. We didn't know that it
24 would be discussed with this witness; therefore, I would kindly request
25 for the question and the answer not to be taken into account in respect
1 of the document in question.
2 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I will have to check to see if that is,
4 in fact, the case with my records. Nevertheless, this document that -- I
5 take it that Mr. Lukic is objecting to 951. This document is one that is
6 referenced in a document he was notified of, P2746. So he is on notice
7 or he did get the document 2746, so I make that observation.
8 I also make the observation, Your Honour: Mr. Lukic also had
9 documents that he did not have on his list, and I had an opportunity to
10 review that technical violation of the Rules, and after reviewing those
11 documents I was perfectly satisfied to have Mr. Lukic to proceed with the
12 documents. I'm -- frankly, surprised at this objection, but Mr. Lukic
13 has the right to make the objection, but I'm surprised given that he has
14 already received 2746 that he objects to the related document of P951.
15 I think, Your Honour, it is in the interest of justice to have
16 this document heard. It's been presented to the witness. I think
17 there's sufficient notice, although a technical violation, I concede, but
18 there's been sufficient notice as to the substance of this document.
19 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to take this
21 opportunity to respond to Mr. Harmon. Under the Rules and your
22 instructions, we have to give notice at least two days before a witness
23 appears in the courtroom to the OTP about any documents that we may be
24 using, which I duly complied. The first list that I worked with
25 contained between 30 and 40 documents, and I served the list on the OTP
1 three days before the witness appeared.
2 And then there were several additional documents that I informed
3 them of, at least the day before the witness appeared in this courtroom.
4 We are talking about these documents, but there is another thing that the
5 Trial Chamber doesn't know about because we have not so far drawn
6 anyone's attention to this ever since the start of the Defence case when
7 the OTP serves on us a list of documents that they intend to use during
8 their cross. They tend to provide very extensive lists, specifically in
9 relation to Mr. Kovacevic. Yesterday, when the cross-examination began,
10 I received a list containing 157 documents that the OTP apparently
11 intended to use with this witness. We cannot accept the fact that if
12 this document was introduced along with another document and was not on
13 the list, it should now be used.
14 MR. HARMON: I'm in your hands, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE DAVID: [Microphone not activated] The Chamber --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.
18 JUDGE DAVID: The Chamber has been alerted by both parties that
19 somewhat this situation has not been presented before due to the fact
20 that both parties have some kind of agreement on how to proceed in
21 relation to certain documents as I understood by Mr. Harmon.
22 Could you, Mr. Harmon, give the Chamber additional explanations
23 on how the situation is just, in many respects, a novel situation because
24 before you had an agreement with the Defence on the presentation of
25 documents which has not been referenced directly but through another one,
1 you think this is the case.
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we obviously give the Defence lists of
3 documents when we start our cross-examination. What the objection is --
4 and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, Your Honour, from an
5 evidentiary points of view, because I want to try to get through this
6 witness today and give Mr. Lukic plenty of time to examine the witness if
7 he feels necessary. We give lists. Mr. Lukic has said we give large
8 lists. We give large lists precisely for the reason that we don't want
9 to confront an objection like this should we find the need arise to a use
10 of a document.
11 This document was not given to Mr. Lukic, apparently, by
12 omission. The companion document was. We have an agreement, and there's
13 a technical violation, if you will, of the agreement. Mr. Lukic, we also
14 have guide-lines. The guide-lines that apply to the Defence giving us
15 documents were breached in the course of this examination of this
16 witness. As I say, that was, I think, two days ago. The fact of the
17 matter is, some documents take the parties by surprise and warrant an
18 objection. My submission is, this document, a technical violation of the
19 agreement that we have with the Defence, is not a document that could
20 have taken him by surprise because it is referenced in the companion
22 So that's why I am surprised by this objection. I think I --
23 have I responded to Your Honour's question?
24 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If Mr. Harmon claims that this is an
1 error, and since the document has been shown and the witness responded,
2 my reaction was late and I will therefore have to withdraw my objection.
3 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
4 Mr. Harmon.
5 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
6 Could we have Prosecution Exhibit 623, please.
7 Q. This is a document, sir, that is dated the 15th of May, it is
8 from Military Post 4919 in Belgrade, and it is a consent on engineers,
9 weapons, and military equipment to be handed over to the VRS based on the
10 approval of the chief of the VJ General Staff. Do you see that, sir?
11 A. Yes, I see the information in the document.
12 Q. Do you have any comment on it, sir?
13 A. My comment is, I wonder why the VJ was asked to provide these
14 mines, knowing that there were over 10.000 mines like this throughout the
15 war in the Koran depot at Pale. The same situation applied after the
16 war. A portion was destroyed when the depot was targeted by NATO. It
17 simply can't be true that these weapons were in short supply. That is
18 why I say the request surprises me.
19 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to Prosecution Exhibit 2731, please.
20 Q. Sir, this is a document from the General Staff of the
21 Yugoslav Army Office of the Chief of the General Staff, and it's dated
22 the 28th of June, 1995, and it is addressed to the command of the
23 2nd Army, assistant commander for logistics. Now, the 2nd Army is a VJ
24 unit, and we've heard evidence about that. But you can see from this
25 document, sir, that the chief of the General Staff, General Perisic, is
1 ordered that the requested assets, which are 200 grad motors, be given to
2 the VRS. Do you see that, sir?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And can you tell us what a grad motor is? Briefly.
5 A. As far as I can tell, and I'm not quite sure, these are motors
6 for launching anti-hail rockets.
7 Q. To your knowledge, sir, were you aware that the VRS was using
8 aerial bombs in its bombardment of Sarajevo?
9 A. I really don't know about that, aside from what I read in the
10 media about the shelling itself.
11 Q. Right. Sir, let me take you to Prosecution Exhibit 1205, please.
12 Okay, sir, this is a document -- the date is not evident on the
13 first page, it's evident on the second page.
14 MR. HARMON: If we could go to the second page just to see the
15 date. It's 30th of June, 1995.
16 Q. Okay. You see that at the bottom? You confirm that, sir?
17 A. It reads:
18 "At the command of the Majevica Tactical Group, the
19 30th of June, 1995, at 10 .00 a.m. Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Kovic."
20 MR. HARMON: Can we go to the first page of the document.
21 Q. Sir, this document is in relation to the take-over of
22 Yugoslav Army vehicles, and there's -- it refers to a decision on the
23 schedule of the take-over, which is the 5th of July, 1995. What I'm
24 particularly interested in this document to discuss with you and is
25 something that you touched upon was -- is in subpart 4 of this document,
1 because this is a document that's talking about transporting 22 motor
2 vehicles and 5 trailers, so it's a significant number of assets. But
3 read paragraph 4, if you will.
4 This says that:
5 "Prepare the IBK ..."
6 What does "IBK" stand for?
7 A. Yes, this is an engineering unit. I think they are specifically
8 building a pontoon bridge here, the kind used to get across rivers. So
9 there's a pontoon bridge being set up by engineering units.
10 Q. This is a pontoon bridge being set up by a VJ engineering unit;
11 is that correct?
12 MR. HARMON: Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Lukic is on his feet.
13 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not sure how happy he can
15 possibly be with this, it reads "IBK." I thought you wanted to know what
16 that means, IBK, the abbreviation, what it stands for.
17 MR. HARMON: I did.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the interpretation perhaps made
19 it a little more confusing. Perhaps the witness should explain the
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. Very briefly General, what does "IBK" stand for?
23 A. I haven't come across the acronym, so I didn't even comment on
24 it. It's not that it was confusing. But it stands for East Bosnian
1 Q. Okay. So the East Bosnia Corps is part of the VRS, isn't that
3 A. Yes, that's right. It's a corps of the VRS.
4 Q. Okay. Now, it says then:
5 "Prepare the East Bosnia Corps engineer battalion pontoon unit
6 for carrying out the task (selecting men, setting aside MS" - which
7 stands for materiel supplies - "reconnoitering the crossing point, make
8 arrangements for a check-point and access road, prepare an area for
9 camouflaging amphibian) the commander of the DD Border Detachment ..."
10 Let me stop there. The Drina Division Border Detachment, sir,
11 which army is that associated with?
12 A. I don't know. Border detachment, DD, I really can't be specific
13 about what it means. If this was the VJ, it would probably be VJ, V=D,
14 but I really don't know.
15 Q. Let me read on.
16 "The commander of the DD Border Detachment proposes that the
17 takeover be carried out in the sector of the village of
18 Balatu-Crna Barai. Illegal crossings are the least frequent there.
19 Access roads are good. The Drina River bed has no dunes, and the
20 crossing point is easy to close off to prevent the UNPROFOR from
21 coming ..."
22 Sir, military goods from the VJ and from the Federal Republic of
23 Yugoslavia did travel through to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a
24 result of covert -- of efforts to conceal the delivery of necessary
25 munitions; isn't that correct?
1 A. This reads, specifically, that the bridge should be set up for
2 crossings. It's easy to close off and it's easy to make the crossing,
3 but it doesn't specifically state that the crossing would be used to
4 transport munition. There were quite many illegal crossings, especially
5 for fuel, livestock, cigarettes. This may have been used for such a
6 purpose as well. Nevertheless, I can't say I've ever read about
7 ammunition or any other type of ordnance being transported here.
8 Q. I see. Okay. I won't go further on this document. Let me
9 change the topic slightly, sir.
10 In your earlier testimony, you testified that you had been
11 appointed to a state committee for the procurement of arms for the
12 Republika Srpska, and that was in 1995; is that correct? That calls for
13 a yes or no answer, sir. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it's correct, but the name of the document as stated by you
15 is inaccurate. And if you want me to, I can set the record straight on
17 Q. Please do that, General.
18 A. This is a state committee for centralised procurement to the
19 armed forces of Republika Srpska. I believe you have that document in
20 your possession, and I'm sure that's how the header reads. Nevertheless,
21 it certainly doesn't say anywhere that the procurement committee was set
22 up from Yugoslavia, only from Yugoslavia.
23 Q. I didn't say that, but lets me proceed with this document. You
24 are correct; I do have it. I'm holding it in my hand, General, and I
25 want to confirm that the members of that committee were Radovan Karadzic;
1 Ratko Mladic; Momcilo Krajisnik; Dusan Cosic, who was the prime minister;
2 Milan Ninkovic, who you mentioned was the SDS successor, minister of
3 defence; Ranko Pajic, the minister of finance; and Tomo Kovac, who was
4 the deputy minister of Internal Affairs. They were the members appointed
5 to the committee, weren't they?
6 A. Yes, that's true.
7 Q. And the task of the committee was to provide centralised
8 procurement for the armed forces of the Republika Srpska in weapons and
9 ammunition, power forces, food supplies, quartermaster and medical
10 equipment and instruments, materiel equipment, spare parts, and
11 expendable materiel. That was one of the tasks of the committee;
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Interested -- if I could have -- let me ask you this question,
15 sir: You mentioned yesterday that you were on a part of a committee, and
16 in fact you mentioned this this morning in your evidence, that you were
17 part of a committee, an executive team, to examine transport means of
18 getting materiel from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Do you
19 remember your earlier testimony this morning?
20 A. I was the secretary of that committee. I had no powers except to
21 gather reports and records such as received by the service.
22 Q. I'm referring to your evidence, sir. It is found on page 25,
23 starting at line 6. You said, in respect of transportation of ammunition
24 from Serbia to the republic, you said:
25 There were attempts to transport ammunition from Serbia to the
1 Republika Srpska, however, I didn't know -- I'm sorry, let me start at
2 line 8:
3 "My participation in the whole matter was defined pursuant to an
4 order by Radovan Karadzic, the then-president of the republic. And
5 together with some other people, we were supposed to establish whether it
6 was possible to transport ammunition from Serbia to Republika Srpska
7 across the existing border crossings. And the dead-line ..." --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Harmon slow down, please, thank you.
9 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry.
10 Q. "And the dead-line we were given was seven days.
11 "I personally drafted a report for President Karadzic in which I
12 informed him that it was impossible to transport any convoys across the
13 border, and I also stated that controlled bodies operated on those border
14 crossings, but I said that there might be somebody who could transport
15 one, two, three, or four trucks at most. I told him that I didn't want
16 to continue being involved in that job because I did not have any
17 authority either over the police or the military. And then he said,
18 Okay, the military will do that. And that's where my knowledge about the
19 whole thing stops."
20 Now, that's what you testified this morning, and I want to ask
21 you questions about that committee that you were the team leader of,
22 General. That was -- there was an executive team that was established to
23 look at ways in which materiel could be transported; am I correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Okay. Now, the other members of that team were General --
1 Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Cvijetic, Milenko Serenic [phoen],
2 Branko Prodanovic [phoen], Momcilo Mandic, and
3 Veselinka Toruntas [phoen], as well as Mirko Krajisnik. Now,
4 Mirko Krajisnik was the brother of Momcilo Krajisnik; correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And the task of the team was to organise and transport relevant
7 means from the FRY within the next seven days and place them in the
8 locations which were agreed on. Now, my question to you, sir, is: The
9 transport of what? What was your executive team looking at to transport
10 from the FRY into the Republika Srpska?
11 A. It was ammunition to be used by the VRS.
12 Q. And where were the locations that were agreed upon where this
13 ammunition would be deposited or brought to?
14 A. The ammunition should have been delivered to the logistics base
15 in Bijeljina.
16 Q. Okay. Now, was this the formation of this committee in -- as a
17 result of contemplated continued military activities that would require
18 ammunition and logistical support?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object. I believe that the
20 question is compound, complex. Could it please be rephrased.
21 MR. HARMON: I'm happy to do that, sir.
22 Q. Was the team that you were the team leader of, was that created
23 because the VRS needed additional logistical support transported from the
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the Republika Srpska?
25 A. I received an order to try and see or investigate whether the
1 ammunition could be transported across the border or not. That's the
2 only thing I can tell you.
3 Q. And the ammunition was going to be used by the VRS in future
4 military operations; correct?
5 A. I really wasn't aware of any operations. It was simply to be
6 used to replenish the VRS equipment and means.
7 Q. Okay. And you were made the executive team leader pursuant to a
8 decision that was issued on the 20th of June, 1995; correct?
9 A. I believe it is correct, and the document was in effect for no
10 more than seven days.
11 Q. And on the 20th of June, 1995, that was approximately three weeks
12 before the attack on the Srebrenica enclave, which you know about, isn't
13 that right, General?
14 A. It is quite possible, but I was unaware of any operation in
16 Q. When did you learn about the -- as minister of defence, when was
17 it that you learned about the operation against Srebrenica?
18 A. I was removed from the position as defence minister in
19 August 1994, or, rather, the end of July 1994. Before then and up to
20 then, I'm sure I did not become aware of anything going on in Srebrenica.
21 Q. You were the deputy minister of defence because you told us that,
22 so when did -- my question to you, sir, is: When did you learn about the
23 operation that was conducted by the VRS against Srebrenica?
24 A. It was a secret operation. Only a small number of people were
25 privy to the information about that operation. I'm sure that I didn't
1 know anything prior to the operation starting. I learned about it only
2 in August 1995, not before.
3 Q. When, in August of 1995, did you learn about it?
4 A. I believe that when Operation Storm was either already completed
5 or still underway.
6 Q. Can you give us a date or approximate date? Was it in the
7 beginning of August, the end of August, the middle of August?
8 A. When the president of the republic issued an order to assign me
9 to the group which was charged with billeting the Main Staff of the VRS
10 on Mount Kozara in hotel Kozara near Prijedor. That was sometime in
11 mid-August or in the first half of the month of August, perhaps.
12 Q. All right. Sir, let me ask you, I told you yesterday that I
13 would come back to the question of Mr. Ecimovic who was the technical
14 director at Pretis factory. After the war, sir, did he return to the VJ?
15 A. I really wouldn't know. I don't know.
16 Q. Do you know Aleksa Krsmanovic?
17 A. I know Colonel Aleksa Krsmanovic rather well.
18 Q. He was the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps assistant commander for
19 organisation and mobilisation during the war?
20 A. No.
21 Q. What was his position during the war in the
22 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
23 A. He was assistant commander for logistics in the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The assistant commander for logistics.
25 Q. Okay. So he was in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command then but
1 for logistics issues?
2 A. You are right. He was in the command and he was dealing with the
3 logistics issues.
4 Q. Sir, I want to change the topic. I want to ask you about
5 something that you said in your testimony earlier. You said in the
6 transcript at 12729, lines 11 through 14, you said:
7 "I have never heard of a procedure where the Army of Yugoslavia
8 would have jurisdiction or the VJ courts would have jurisdiction in
9 relation to any breaches of discipline committed in the VRS."
10 That was your testimony. Let me ask you, first of all: Was a --
11 was going AWOL, abandoning your unit, in the VRS considered a breach of
12 discipline under the VJ RS Law on the Army?
13 A. Yes, that would be the case.
14 MR. HARMON: Could I have P2423 on the monitor. Let me just
15 check to see if that's ...
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we have an error in
17 the transcript. "VJ RS Law on the Army"?
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. That is wrong. Let me
19 rephrase the question.
20 Q. Was going AWOL or abandoning your unit considered a disciplinary
21 offence under the army law of the VRS?
22 A. Every disciplinary offence committed by a VRS member fell under
23 the regulations governing the work of disciplinary courts and
24 subsequently the military courts of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. My question was: Was going AWOL or abandoning one's unit in the
1 VRS a disciplinary offence? Yes or no?
2 A. Yes, of course. Certainly.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 2423 on the
5 monitor, please.
6 Q. Sir, do you recognise this to be a VJ personnel file?
7 A. It says here, "Federal Secretariat for National Defence Personnel
8 Administration," which means that this is a personnel file from the times
9 of the former Yugoslavia.
10 Q. Okay. And this is the type of a file that was maintained on
11 people who were members of the VJ, after the JNA became the VJ; do you
12 agree with me on that?
13 A. I agree.
14 MR. HARMON: I want to look further into this file. If I could
15 have P2424 on the monitor, please. This individual's name is
16 Dane Kosojevic, for the record. It's the file we're looking at.
17 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to two entries on this
18 page. The first is the penultimate entry where it indicates that the
19 position of the serviceman was the commander of a battalion, and it
20 references the 30th Personnel Centre. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. The last entry indicates that the professional military service
23 of this individual was terminated because he was five days absent without
24 leave, and there is in the right-hand side an order number. Do you see
25 that order number, and do you see the acronym PSU?
1 A. Yes, I can see the number and the acronym, but I don't know what
2 "PSU" stands for. I can only speculate.
3 Q. Okay. I submit to you, sir, that that is an order of the chief
4 of personnel administration of the Yugoslav Army General Staff. What do
5 you say?
6 A. Yes, it is possible.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. HARMON: Could we go to the next exhibit, which is P2425.
9 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 12th -- I'm sorry, the
10 8th of December, 1994, and it is from the Drina Corps command, which is a
11 VRS unit. And you will see that it is a proposal for the termination of
12 the professional military service of Ljubo Kosojevic. And who is --
13 MR. HARMON: We need to go to the next page in the English.
14 Q. Can you tell me who has submitted this proposal? Can you see
15 that? Can you read the signature on that, sir? Who committed this
17 A. Deputy Commander Colonel Radislav Krstic is what I'm reading
19 Q. This is a -- this is the Drina Corps proposing the termination of
20 Mr. Kosojevic.
21 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to P1807, please.
22 While we're turning to the that Your Honour, the full name of the
23 individual whose personnel file we're looking at is: first name, Ljubo;
24 last name, Kosojevic. His father's name is Dane.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Could you repeat the exhibit number, please?
1 MR. HARMON: Yes, P1807.
2 Q. Now, sir, in the last document that we looked at with
3 General Krstic, he was proposing that Mr. Kosojevic be terminated because
4 he had gone AWOL from his unit. This is a document that is issued by the
5 chief of the personnel administration of the Yugoslav Army General Staff
6 dated the 9th of May. We can see the order number on the top, 200/59
7 corresponds with the number that we saw earlier entered into his
8 personnel file. We can see that the reason that he is being terminated
9 is because he was absent from the service without leave for five
10 consecutive days, specifically what General Krstic had recommended and
11 what he had reported.
12 So, sir, the VJ in fact did discipline and did exercise its
13 authority over VJ personnel for breaches of discipline committed in the
14 VRS; isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's what arises from this document.
16 Q. Okay. Let me -- sir, let me turn to one other portion of your
18 MR. HARMON: We need to go into private session on this.
19 JUDGE DAVID: Let's go into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 12877-12879 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE DAVID: I think that, given the time, we should adjourn now
4 until 12.30. The Court adjourns. And then you, Mr. Lukic, proceed to
5 your re-examination.
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
9 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
12 Q. General, I have only a few questions for you. Mr. Harmon asked
13 you yesterday, when he showed you certain documents in order to impeach
14 your testimony provided in the examination-in-chief, and that was that,
15 according to you, the ammunition supplies before 1993 were enough for the
16 VRS, and that from 1993 onwards those supplies dwindled. This is what
17 you asserted, and this is what Mr. Harmon tried to contest. And he
18 showed you some documents: one of them sent to the government -- the
19 Ministry of Defence by General Mladic, and another one drafted by
20 General Milovanovic.
21 According to you, did the Main Staff have enough information
22 about the supplies of units at a lower level? And you told us quite a
23 lot about those supplies, how they were created, and how they were kept a
24 secret. Were they kept a secret from the Main Staff of the VRS?
25 A. Yes. This was what I stated, and I adhere by my words. Those
1 reserves were being kept a secret from the Main Staff.
2 Q. I would like to read to you part of your answers in the interview
3 with the OTP in 2007 on page 37. My learned friend Mr. Guy-Smith is
4 going to read, because the statement is in English.
5 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, this will be starting at line 27:
7 "I can claim that the reserve was weakened, but through my
8 channels I received information that units on -- at lower levels, at the
9 levels of brigade, had been hiding their resources and giving false
10 images of resources to Mladic, because I had reliable information and
11 knowledge at the time that those commanders were hiding infantry and
12 artillery ammunition and mines to be able to self-willingly, with
13 co-operation with the local levels of authority, besides the central
14 authority, use the ammunition, meaning to have fund of it."
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the last sentence has
16 still not been interpreted into the Serbian.
17 Q. Well, now, General, you stated this for The Hague Tribunal in
18 2007. Do you still adhere by those words?
19 A. Yes, I adhere by those words, and this is what I have always
21 Q. When you say here that you received the information that you
22 shared --
23 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, when you said that this portion was on
24 page 37, is that 37 of the B/C/S or 37 of the English?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The only version I have is the
1 English version. I've never received a B/C/S version. 37 out of 116 at
2 line 27 in the English version.
3 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And, now, could you please clarify one thing for me. You say and
6 you mention your channels through which you received the information that
7 you shared with the OTP; what channels were those, what were the sources
8 of your information?
9 A. The chiefs of the Ministry of Defence departments and
10 municipalities were my subordinates, and they were duty-bound pursuant to
11 the law to replenish units with personnel and materiel and equipment as
12 per the lists. All the units of the VRS which were in the territory of
13 the municipality fell under that obligation. I tasked them with inspect
14 the reserves of ammunition and other equipment. I sometimes personally
15 inspected the depots with them to establish what the situation was. And
16 that was one of my predominant sources of information at the time.
17 Q. And lets just clarify one more thing with regard to the answers
18 provided to Mr. Harmon. Mr. Harmon asked you about 1993 about the
19 ammunition that was critical at the time. Your answer was a little
20 confusing because it concerned the most important ammunition for the
21 activities of the VRS. Could you please repeat your answer. According
22 to you, what types of ammunition were the most important for the
23 activities of the VRS?
24 A. I shall repeat, then. And I will supplement my previous answer.
25 Most of the weaponry was infantry weaponry; therefore, the highest
1 quantity of ammunition was required for that type of weaponry. And that
2 was automatic 7.62 Kalashnikov semi-automatic 7.62, machine-gun 7.62 M-84
3 manufactured by the Crvena Zastava factory in Kragujevac, self-propelled
4 mines that were mounted on semi-automatic rifles.
5 Q. Very well. That was the answer you gave to Mr. Harmon. I am
6 seeking clarification. At the end of 1993, was all that ammunition in
7 short supply in the Army of Republika Srpska?
8 A. According to my information, there was enough of all that
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Harmon put several questions to you with regard
11 to a document which was the decision on the establishment of the
12 commission for materiel supply of the armed forces. Let's clarify an
13 error with regard to the date that Mr. Harmon mentioned on page 26,
14 line 10, which concerns the date of the establishment of that commission.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please bring up on the screen
16 an OTP document from the 65 ter list, 578.
17 Q. This is a decision on the establishment of the state committee
18 for procurement of the armed forces of Republika Srpska. And here we can
19 see a list of names that I'm not going to mention. And it says here that
20 you were appointed the secretary of the committee.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2 in order to see
22 when the committee was actually established.
23 Q. The date is 28 March, 1995; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Does this jog your memory? Does it help you remember that the
1 committee was indeed established on that date?
2 A. Yes. Earlier than I was told by Mr. Harmon, earlier than
3 July 1995.
4 Q. And just one more question with regard to this: The armed forces
5 of Republika Srpska, what did they consist of?
6 A. The VRS and the Republika Srpska police.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted,
8 Your Honours. We had discussed the work of this committee at great
9 length, and I believe that the document will be of some assistance to the
10 Trial Chamber when it comes to the establishment of facts.
11 JUDGE DAVID: Let's admit the document and give it an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document should be assigned
14 Exhibit D421. Thank you.
15 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to go back to
17 another document shown to you by Mr. Harmon.
18 Could the Court please produce P2726. Can we go straight to
19 page 2.
20 I am interested in the portion that you discussed with
21 Mr. Harmon. This is what I would like to shed some more light on.
22 Q. Mr. Harmon showed you the lower portion of this document where it
23 says that Mr. Sinisa Borovic drafted this document, where it says: We
24 hereby send you the document. And it says here: Give to Ratko to deal
25 with this.
1 Did you ever hear of Ratko Milovanovic?
2 A. Yes, the name does ring a bell.
3 Q. Do you know what his position was and where he was stationed?
4 A. He was in the logistics staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, as far
5 as I can remember.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I no longer need in
7 document, thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Harmon showed you another document, P1205.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce the
10 document again.
11 Q. Mr. Harmon had a couple of questions about this document. Could
12 you please look at the first page. Could you please read the somewhat
13 lengthy text on page 1 before we move on to page 2.
14 My question is this: On the first page, is there a reference to
15 materiel and equipment or ammunition?
16 A. I have not encountered the word ammunition or any other type of
17 lethal weapons.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go to the second page of
19 the same document. Line 2, please.
20 Q. I'll read it for you:
21 "I suggest that fuel (400 litres of D-2 and 200 litres of MB-86)
22 be bought in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Golubac area and
23 be stored at the Batajnica airfield."
24 Is there any reference to ammunition here or indeed the VJ in
25 that same context?
1 A. No reference to ammunition.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,
3 this concludes my re-examination. There is one thing that
4 General Kovacevic would like to say though.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, if I may. It's not about
6 this; it's about something else.
7 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Harmon.
8 MR. HARMON: Yes, I have some questions based on what Mr. Lukic
9 asked, if I may, Your Honour.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I mean --
11 MR. HARMON: Because -- let me -- there seems to be a confusion
12 in the record. The witness, in respect of the date of the
13 20th of June, 1995, that Mr. Lukic refers to, the witness in his evidence
14 testified about being part of a -- I'm looking at page 25. He talks
15 about being part of a group that was formed to deal with the
16 transportation of ammunition across existing borders, and he gave a long
17 explanation about his work in that group, including giving a report to
18 President Karadzic. And then he was asked the question by me as to the
19 commission that you talked about was a commission that was formed on the
20 20th of June, 1995. My question, Your Honour, was perhaps poorly
21 phrased. The committee for the procurement of arms, the state committee,
22 was indeed formed on the 28th of March, 1995. The group that this
23 witness was a member of, which was the executive team which is part of
24 that committee, was formed on the 20th of June, 1995. So what I'm
25 seeking to do is to clarify the record so there is no confusion
1 whatsoever. That's the only question I have. I want to make sure that
2 when there's a reference to a date and this witness's evidence about an
3 executive team that was formed for the transportation of goods across the
4 border, that the correct date is referred to in the record and there be
5 no confusion.
6 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think it's in keeping with
8 the procedure for Mr. Harmon to be asking questions such as these after
9 my re-examination, but I think this is not in dispute. It was the way
10 Mr. Harmon phrased it, for the committee as we have seen was set up on
11 the 28th of March, 1995, and the witness talked about the activities of
12 his team in June 1995. I wasn't going to ask that question because the
13 question that had been asked previously was about the committee.
14 JUDGE DAVID: I believe the matter has already been clarified.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but I do have a small
16 clarification regarding the transcript. My last question, Your Honours -
17 it's something that stems from the document - my question at page 58,
18 line 17. I was reading from the document, Your Honour. It may be a
19 translation issue, but just to make sure. I'm reading that sentence
21 "I suggest that fuel and the type of fuel be bought in the FRY."
22 Thank you, Your Honours. Mr. Kovacevic, thank you.
23 Mr. Kovacevic wishes to address the Court. I'm not sure what
24 that is about.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed two
1 minutes to address you, please? I would like to explain the problem in
2 relation to aluminium and my credibility before this Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Kovacevic, I believe that your testimony
4 already had finished before this Court in the sense that what the
5 procedure allows for you has taken already place. And any other
6 clarification and any other question has been already precluded. So
7 perhaps what you have said is very important now, but yet it's what you
8 have said at the precise procedural opportunity. And having saying so,
9 let me, since you have finished your testimony, thank you very much for
10 appearing in this court. And your task has finished. And we wish you a
11 safe trip back. So please, Court aids, help Mr. Kovacevic to leave the
12 court premises. Thank you very much again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE DAVID: Going back to our next session, is the Defence
16 ready to present the witnesses for our next session that will take place
17 Monday the 19th at 9.00 a.m. in this courtroom?
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much then. In that case, I wish to
20 thank both the Prosecution and Defence for the procedural promptness
21 which they have shown today and that made possible for us to finish the
22 examination of this witness. And in doing so, we adjourn until Monday
23 the 19th. And thank you again.
24 The Court adjourns.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.53 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day
2 of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.