Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13454

 1                           Friday, 3 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning, Your Honours.

10     Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number

11     IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you, Your

12     Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Could we have appearances for the day, starting with the

15     Prosecution, please.

16             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, counsel.

17     Good morning, everyone in the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Salvatore Cannata,

18     Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             And for the Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

22     morning to everybody in the courtroom and around the courtroom.

23     Appearing for Mr. Perisic today are Novak Lukic and Boris Zorko.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic.

25             Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.

Page 13455

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure by now you do know that you are bound by

 3     the declaration you made at the beginning of the testimony to tell the

 4     truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.  Thank you very

 5     much.

 6             Mr. Harmon.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILE NOVAKOVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

11        Q.    Good morning, General Novakovic.

12        A.   Good morning, Prosecutor Harmon.

13        Q.   General, I'd like to finish your evidence this morning, and I'm

14     sure you would like to finish your evidence this morning as well, so

15     listen carefully to my questions and we will accomplish that task.

16             On what date did the refugees from the Cazin area enter into

17     Kordun and create a humanitarian crisis?

18        A.   To the best of my recollection, Mr. Harmon, that was on the 20th

19     and 21st of August, 1994, the refugees came from the areas of Cazin and

20     Velika Kladusa.

21        Q.   And on what date did Operation Pauk begin?

22        A.   Operation Pauk, as far as I can remember, started in mid-December

23     1994.

24             MR. HARMON:  Could I have Prosecution Exhibit 902 on the monitor,

25     the first page of that exhibit in both languages, please.

Page 13456

 1        Q.   I can see that that copy in the Serbian language is a little

 2     difficult to read off the monitor.  Do you have problems reading that,

 3     General?  I have a hard copy for you if it is difficult for you to read.

 4        A.   This is really hardly legible on the screen, Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Could I have the assistance of the monitor and with

 6     the Court's permission could I give the witness a hard copy of this

 7     document.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may do so, sir.

 9             MR. HARMON:

10        Q.   Is that better, General?

11        A.   Somewhat better, although --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Do you have a copy for the interpreters?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but it's better.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  I do not -- there is a copy for the interpreters.

16        Q.   We will begin by identifying this document.  First of all, this

17     is a document from the Main Staff of the VRS that is dated the 2nd of

18     July, 1994, and if we could go to the last page in the -- the

19     second-to-last page in the English, page 3, I want to see the signature

20     of the person who issued this combat order.  Thank you.  We can see it in

21     English.  If we go into the B/C/S -- or actually, that's fine.

22             General, can you just look at the last page in the copy in front

23     of you and tell us whose name appears to be the person who issued this

24     order?

25        A.   On the last page in the left bottom corner I see the words

Page 13457

 1     "Deputy Commander Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic."

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Could we return to the first page of the two

 4     versions of this document.

 5        Q.   And, General, I want to direct your attention while you have the

 6     document in hand I'm going to be discussing the paragraph 2, so if you

 7     could get a head start and start reading that.  All right.  Paragraph 2

 8     of this combat order reads that:

 9             "Pursuant to the agreement between the Army of Yugoslavia, the

10     Army of Republika Srpska, the Serbian Army of Krajina, and the armed

11     forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, Directive 6 issued

12     by the Supreme Command and the armed forces of Republika Srpska on 11

13     November 1993, and the agreement concluded in Vojnic on 24 June 1994

14     between the representatives of the Army of Yugoslavia, the Army of

15     Republika Srpska, the Army of Krajina, and the military representatives

16     of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, the Army of Republika

17     Srpska has the task of starting offensive operations on 10 July, 1994, in

18     the direction of the River Una engaging as much as possible the forces of

19     the 5th Corps of the so-called BH Army, reaching the right bank of the

20     River Una, and thus making it possible to carry out the plans of the

21     armed forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia for the full

22     control of the territory of Cazin Krajina."

23             Now, sir, let me ask you in respect of this document, have you

24     ever seen this document before?

25        A.   No.

Page 13458

 1        Q.   Okay.  This document at the beginning of paragraph 2 refers to an

 2     agreement between the Army of Yugoslavia, the Army of the Republika

 3     Srpska, the Serbian Army of Krajina which you were the commander, and the

 4     armed forces of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia.  It makes a

 5     reference to an agreement.  What was that agreement, sir?

 6        A.   You will have to ask that -- those who took part in reaching that

 7     agreement.  At that time, I was not in the command structure of the SVK

 8     or the VRS or the VJ, Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But you were still in the SVK and you were still an

10     advisor to -- you still held a high position in the army, did you not?

11     So an agreement between the VJ, the SVK, the VRS, and the autonomous

12     province of Western Bosnia would be something that would be quite

13     important, wouldn't it?

14        A.   Mr. Harmon, this document is entitled -- is dated the 2nd of

15     July, 1994.  I don't believe -- it's doubtful that at that time I was not

16     in the SVK, neither in those other two aforementioned armies, nor was I

17     in any way involved in preparing or reaching such an agreement, nor do I

18     know anything about that agreement.

19        Q.   Okay.  You say that you were not in the SVK on the 2nd of July,

20     1994?  That's your testimony as translated.

21        A.   That's correct.  At the time I was deputy supreme commander for

22     national security and international relations, as I've stated on a number

23     of occasions.

24        Q.   Did you still hold a post in the SVK on the 2nd of July, 1994?

25     Were you still a member of the SVK?

Page 13459

 1        A.   Mr. Harmon, I was assistant supreme commander for national

 2     security and international relations.  If I were to say that I was

 3     involved in the SVK, then I would have to tell you what exact post I held

 4     in the SVK at the time.  At the time I held no posts in the SVK.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's turn to the second part of this paragraph 2,

 6     and it references a meeting -- an agreement that was concluded on the

 7     24th of June, 1994, in Vojnic.  Vojnic is in the RSK, it's a town in the

 8     RSK, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

10        Q.   And can you tell us anything about the -- an agreement that took

11     place in the RSK involving the representatives of the Army of Yugoslavia,

12     the Republika Srpska, the SVK, and the military representatives from the

13     autonomous province of Western Bosnia?

14        A.   Commander of the Serbian Army of Krajina was General Celeketic

15     and there was no love lost between us.  What he took part I never took

16     part in, which means that I wasn't there in Vojnic concerning what you're

17     asking me about.

18        Q.   Okay.  We can see, General, at the end of this second paragraph

19     General Milovanovic says that the VRS is supposed to start offensive

20     operations on the 10th of July in the direction of the River Una, and

21     thus make it possible to carry out plans for Fikret Abdic's forces to

22     take full control over the Cazin Krajina.  Operation Pauk had similar

23     objectives, that is, to take-over territory in the Cazin Krajina area,

24     didn't it?

25        A.   Answering to your question about the similarities and differences

Page 13460

 1     between these operations and Operation Pauk would require plenty of time

 2     that you would deem unnecessary.  In essence, those were operations

 3     against the 5th Corps in both cases; that much is correct.  With this

 4     difference, the VRS before and after this operation and after what was

 5     deemed -- labelled as Operation Pauk did take action through its 2nd

 6     Krajina Corps against the 5th Corps in the Cazin region.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much, sir.  I'm done with this document.

 8        A.   Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Yes, sir?

10        A.   If you allow me, in paragraph 7 of this document let's clarify

11     matters for the benefit of the Bench.  In sentence 1 it states:

12             "Operation is to be carried out under the title Una-94."

13             Does it present clearly that this is not Operation Pauk then, and

14     in such a light I don't know what the gist of your questions are --

15        Q.   Sir, let me interrupt you for a minute.  I never asserted that

16     this was Operation Pauk.  I was asking you if there were similarities in

17     terms of the objectives between the Una operation and Operation Pauk.

18     And I believe you answered that question for me, so we are concluded with

19     this document.

20             Now, what was Operation Breza 94?

21        A.   First I hear about an operation named Breza 94.

22        Q.   Okay.  If you don't know anything about it, we will conclude the

23     topic and we'll move to another topic, General.

24             What was the Pauk command?

25        A.   Mr. Harmon, you are expecting me to say that I was commander of

Page 13461

 1     the Pauk command.  I answer that I was commander of Pauk command for that

 2     part, referring to carrying out of combat operation; but I wasn't a

 3     commander with full authority of a commander as defined in the word

 4     "commander."  And this needs an explanation if you'd like to hear it.

 5        Q.   Sir, my question -- we will get to that point.  My question -- if

 6     you listen carefully to my question I asked you:  What was the Pauk

 7     command?  What was it?

 8        A.   Pauk command comprised of Supreme Command of the People's Defence

 9     of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, Serif Mustedanagic was at

10     the head of that, and four to five Serbian officers headed by me who

11     assisted them in planning combat operations and in co-ordination of these

12     combat operations with the SVK.

13        Q.   And did you have the role of the commander of the Pauk command or

14     did you have the title of commander in the Pauk command?

15        A.   It is unclear to me what you mean - and I insist on it - what is

16     the role and what is the title, Mr. Harmon?

17        Q.   Sir, I corrected my question and I changed it from the role to

18     the title.  Were you -- did you issue orders under the title of commander

19     of Pauk command?

20        A.   On the basis of what is agreed upon by the representatives of the

21     units taking part in specific action and if -- and agreed upon by

22     Fikret Abdic as the president of the Autonomous Province of Western

23     Bosnia, on the basis of that I signed my name under the results of such

24     agreements and joint consultations for specific combat activities and

25     operations as a commander over the carrying out of such combat

Page 13462

 1     activities.

 2        Q.   Now, I'll give you an opportunity to explain your role as opposed

 3     to your title.  What was your actual role in the Pauk operation?  You

 4     mentioned co-ordination.  What forces were you co-ordinating?

 5        A.   I co-ordinated the use of those forces that I enumerated

 6     yesterday as taking part in operations during Operation Pauk, and if need

 7     be I may repeat those.

 8        Q.   We'll come to that later, sir.  In terms of the orders that you

 9     issued, did you issue combat orders?

10        A.   I issued exclusively combat orders on the basis of decisions

11     taken by representatives of all the units and all the amassed that were

12     supposed to take part in such a combat activity or action or operation.

13        Q.   Did you prepare regular combat reports?

14        A.   Did I prepare regular combat reports you mean?

15        Q.   That's what I asked you, sir, yes.  Did you prepare regular

16     combat reports?

17        A.   Regular combat reports, no; but interim combat reports, yes.

18        Q.   Did you send those combat reports that you prepared to anyone?

19        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.

20        Q.   To whom did you send those combat reports?

21        A.   As far as I can remember, such combat reports we would send to

22     the Main Staff of the SVK from time to time and State Security Service of

23     Serbia, attention of Mr. Milosevic; and I may have informed the

24     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia on what was happening there.

25        Q.   Did you send regular combat reports and extraordinary combat

Page 13463

 1     reports to General Perisic?

 2        A.   Extraordinary reports, yes, but no regular reports as far as I

 3     can remember.  I wanted to keep him posted of the situation.  To be -- to

 4     use a precise military term, and this is an important distinction, those

 5     reports were information in their character and purpose.

 6             MR. HARMON:  Could we have XN321 on the monitor, please, and I am

 7     interested in 0 -- English translation 0280-6335, B/C/S page 2.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Purpose?

 9             MR. HARMON:  At this point I want to refresh the witness's

10     recollection with it if -- well, it's to impeach him, Your Honour, but I

11     want to explore this with him, so that's the purpose.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If it's used for impeachment, I do

14     not object for the document to be shown to the witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. HARMON:

17        Q.   Sir, the document in front of you is a regular combat report.  It

18     is dated the 3rd of May, 1995, and it bears a typed name, your name, at

19     the bottom.  Do you recognise this document, sir?

20        A.   I can see that, yes, Mr. Harmon.

21        Q.   Now, this document --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, Mr. Harmon.

23             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see a discrepancy in

25     the translation, and you will see that for yourself.  In the date on the

Page 13464

 1     original document -- I'm checking whether this is the same document, yes,

 2     it is.  It says here 11th of May in the original and in the English

 3     translation is the 3rd of May, 1995.  I only hope that this is the only

 4     problem with translation.

 5             MR. HARMON:  This is the wrong document in B/C/S, so that's the

 6     problem.  The B/C/S version that I have says the 3rd of May, and perhaps

 7     I gave you the wrong page reference but I don't think so.  0280-6335,

 8     English translation.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you're sorting that out, Mr. Harmon --

10             MR. HARMON:  Page 2.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- can we see the signed part in the English part,

12     please.

13             MR. HARMON:  Yes.  Could the Registrar please go to the next page

14     in English.

15        Q.   All right, sir, this --

16             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, may I proceed?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may.

18             MR. HARMON:

19        Q.   General Novakovic, this has your typed name under the title of

20     "commander."  And we can see, if we can go -- at the top that this

21     document emanates from the Pauk command.  We can see that at the top of

22     the document on the first page in the English, if we could return to the

23     first page in the English.

24             Now, sir, this was sent to -- personally to General Perisic.  It

25     doesn't say for information.  It was sent to General Perisic, it was sent

Page 13465

 1     to the -- obviously to General Celeketic, to the commander of the 21st

 2     command, the 39th command, the 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS, and it's a

 3     regular combat report.  How often did you send these types of regular

 4     combat reports to General Perisic?

 5        A.   Mr. Harmon, the very list of people and their positions to whom

 6     this combat report was sent shows that the report was sent to persons

 7     who, apart from the Main Staff of the SVK, are not in a relationship of

 8     subordination.  So that is there was no hierarchy in place with regard to

 9     the Pauk command.  The Chief of General Staff of the VJ and the commander

10     of the 21st Corps and the commander of the 39th Corps and the commander

11     of the 2nd Krajina Corps in the last line, seem to be at an equal rank,

12     at an equal level --

13        Q.   Let me stop you there for a minute.  My question to you was:  How

14     often did you send these types of regular combat reports to

15     General Perisic?  That was my question.  Can you answer that question,

16     sir?

17        A.   If that was your question, I think it was about once a week.

18        Q.   Why did you send a regular combat report to General Perisic once

19     a week?

20        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I sent information about the situation to

21     General Perisic for the same reason as to the commander of the 2nd Corps,

22     the commander of the 21st Corps of the SVK, and the commander of the 39th

23     Corps of the SVK, and that is for them to be familiar with the

24     development of the situation and the circumstances in the field.

25        Q.   You also sent a request to General Perisic to provide you and

Page 13466

 1     your operation with logistical assistance and materiel, didn't you?

 2        A.   Only when the Main Staff of the SVK couldn't provide or

 3     Mr. Fikret Abdic in the ways that he had available, the ways and means he

 4     had available, but I'm not familiar with them.

 5        Q.   Did the Pauk operation consume large amounts of ammunition, for

 6     example, artillery shells?

 7        A.   I would sooner say that the consumption was normal, sir.

 8        Q.   Okay.  The Pauk operation you told us began in December of 1994

 9     and it ended in August of 1995, so there must have been a fairly large

10     consumption of ammunition, small arms ammunition, and artillery

11     ammunition.  Would you agree with me or not agree with me?

12        A.   In all militaries of the world, there are standards, Mr. Harmon,

13     standards with regards to ammunition consumption.  Sometimes the unit of

14     measure is a day of warfare.  So you can apply the standard to establish

15     how much ammunition will be required.  If we were to apply NATO

16     standards, then the consumption was small.

17        Q.   So tell me, what was the volume of small arms ammunition you

18     consumed in Operation Pauk, using the standards that you have described ?

19        A.   No, sir, I cannot tell you off the top of my head.  I don't want

20     to mention a ballpark figure and then it can turn out to be wrong.  It's

21     the logistics officers who can say more about that, but there are

22     international standards, and I can -- and I'm speaking on the basis of

23     what I heard as going on on the front line.  But I never dealt with the

24     figures and tables and such.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 13467

 1             MR. HARMON:

 2        Q.   Sir, let me -- are you able to recall how many times you went to

 3     General Perisic or sent requests to General Perisic for logistical

 4     support for Operation Pauk?

 5        A.   I remember that it happened at least once.

 6        Q.   I won't pursue the matter further, General.  Let me ask you as

 7     the Pauk commander, sir, did you maintain a Pauk command operations

 8     log-book?

 9        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, in the BH press after the war I saw

10     a -- I saw the copy of such a log-book.  I believe that it was kept for a

11     while.  Whether it was kept all the time or not, I don't know.  It was

12     kept, I suppose, by the officer in the operations room.  But I repeat

13     that I saw entries from that log-book after the war in the BH media.

14             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, could I tender XN321 into evidence,

15     please, could it be given an exhibit number.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  It shall be given

19     Exhibit P02927.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. HARMON:

22        Q.   General, isn't it standard operating procedure in the military

23     when there is an operation -- military operation being conducted to

24     maintain a log-book?

25        A.   In a standard army and in a standard command, certainly,

Page 13468

 1     Mr. Harmon; that is one of the basic standards.  But this was not a

 2     permanent formation nor an establishment unit, nor was it indeed a true

 3     command.

 4        Q.   So what you can tell us -- actually, let me take that back.

 5             When an operations log-book is maintained, what is the purpose of

 6     maintaining a log-book?

 7        A.   The purpose of the log-book is for all messages to be recorded in

 8     the form it was received.  It is not for the one entering it to interpret

 9     it or to assess its credibility, but simply to make a note of it.

10        Q.   And the note includes the person who communicated to the

11     operations room and -- correct?  So the person who sent the message or

12     sent the order or transmitted a communication is recorded in an

13     operations log-book; correct?

14        A.   The participants to a communication must be entered and the

15     nature of the communication, whether it's a report, an order, or anything

16     else.

17        Q.   Was there a communications log-book kept at the forward command

18     post for Operation Pauk?

19        A.   I can neither confirm nor deny that.  I didn't go to the forward

20     command post.

21        Q.   Sir, when a log-book -- a log-book is issued and items are

22     recorded in it and you get to the last page of a log-book, is it supposed

23     to -- is there supposed to be an official closing of that book with the

24     signature from someone who will certify that the book has -- is an

25     official book?

Page 13469

 1        A.   Well, that would be the regular procedure.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And who in the Pauk command would be the person who would

 3     execute that procedure?  Who would sign at the end of a log-book?

 4        A.   If we're speaking about the communications station, then it would

 5     be the chief of communications.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And what role did Cedo Bulat have in the Pauk command?

 7        A.   The late Colonel Cedomir Bulat was Chief of Staff in that Serbian

 8     component of the Pauk command.

 9        Q.   Do you know what role, if any, he would have with the Pauk

10     command log-book in terms of its maintenance or in terms of its -- yeah,

11     in terms of its maintenance and possession?

12        A.   Well, he must have been the person who organised the work of our

13     component of the command and who took care of the functioning of that

14     component, and the other component was the People's Defence of the

15     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia.

16        Q.   Now, during a military operation various participants have

17     code-names or call-signs; that's standard operating procedure, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What was your code-name in Operation Pauk?

20        A.   It was Pauk, Spider.

21        Q.   Now, in terms of Operation Pauk, sir, were there battle groups?

22        A.   For some combat assignments, battle groups were established.

23     Whether or not they were established depended on the purpose of the

24     manoeuvre --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear the last part of the witness's

Page 13470

 1     answer.

 2             MR. HARMON:

 3        Q.   Sir, the interpreters didn't hear the last part of your answer.

 4     Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.

 5        A.   Battle groups were established because they were not

 6     establishment units.  Battle groups of different strength and different

 7     composition were formed for various assignments or for various phases of

 8     the carrying out of combat missions.  Their composition was not

 9     permanent; it changed.  So the answer is:  Yes, they were formed

10     occasionally, but they were temporary units, temporary formations.

11        Q.   And what are tactical groups?  Is there a difference between a

12     battle group and a tactical group?

13        A.   There is a difference in principle between a battle group and a

14     tactical group.  Battle groups should be around about a battalion strong

15     or a reinforced battalion, whereas tactical groups are usually a brigade

16     plus something in addition.

17        Q.   Now, do you remember -- you said essentially that these battle

18     groups -- I mean the tactical groups and battle groups are essentially

19     ad hoc.  Depends on the situation.  They were formed for particular

20     assignments.  Did I understand your evidence properly?

21        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon, and their composition varied.

22        Q.   Now, sir, yesterday at the end of your evidence I had asked you

23     which groups had participated in Operation Pauk, and you identified some

24     groups for me.  And then you said nothing else came to mind.  Maybe I

25     could jog your memory and you could remember.  So let me try to jog your

Page 13471

 1     memory.  I want to show you a photograph.

 2             MR. HARMON:  And if I could have XN393 on the monitor.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Purpose?

 4             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, just to see if the witness -- I may not

 5     introduce this document.  I want to show the witness this document; it

 6     may assist him in remembering who certain people are and what their roles

 7     are.  I'm not seeking its introduction.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You haven't asked him about any people.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Well, if I am permitted to show him XN393, I intend

10     to ask him about the people who appear in the photograph.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a problem with such a

13     question being asked, but if Mr. Harmon were to tender this particular

14     photograph then he would have to state a reason.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Harmon.

16             MR. HARMON:

17        Q.   Sir, let me direct your attention in this exhibit to the person

18     on the left of the image.  Can you identify that person?

19        A.   Mr. Harmon, I can not only identify the persons in this

20     photograph, I can also tell you where the place -- I can tell you the

21     place where it was taken and the time is -- can be seen in the photograph

22     anyway.

23        Q.   Well, let's start with identifying the person on the left.  Who

24     is that?

25        A.   This is Mr. Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija.

Page 13472

 1        Q.   And you said you could identify both persons.  Who's the person

 2     then in the centre of this image holding the binoculars?

 3        A.   That's Slobodan Medic, who at that time was the commander of a

 4     unit that had arrived from the eastern part, the 11th Corps.  It only --

 5     it was only supposed to stay for a limited time and it never saw combat.

 6     If you wish, I can tell you where exactly this photograph was taken.

 7        Q.   Please, General.  Where was it taken?

 8        A.   This photograph was taken at Gladno Brdo, 700 metres from the

 9     place where -- when this photograph was taken, my electronic surveillance

10     unit discovered a Hamze Mujahedin group established by Bin Laden.  We

11     opened fire and reduced their strength from 12 to 8.  That is why I

12     exactly remember the place and time when this photograph was taken.

13     Whether or not Bin Laden was there at the time, perhaps -- I don't know.

14     But he may have been in Mr. Izetbegovic's office, though.

15        Q.   We won't explore that possibility, General, but you were present

16     when this photograph was taken, weren't you?

17        A.   Yes, I've just said that I was there.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, this image was taken from a film.  Have you seen the

19     film from which this image was taken?

20        A.   Yes, sir, several times.  It was broadcast several times on

21     Serbian television channels.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let us start with the man on the left, Legija.  What

23     unit -- first of all, what role did he have in the Pauk operation?

24        A.   For a while he was an advisor in the 2nd Brigade during

25     Operation Pauk, the 2nd Brigade of the People's Defence of the Autonomous

Page 13473

 1     Province of Western Bosnia, and the commander's name was Zumret, I forget

 2     his last name.  Later when some other units of company level were added

 3     to that brigade, he was the commander of the tactical group.

 4        Q.   He was the commander of Tactical Group 2, wasn't he?

 5        A.   Tactical Group 2.

 6        Q.   Did Tactical Group 2 come under your command, your specific

 7     command or did it come under someone else's command?

 8        A.   Once the agreement was reached and the decision was taken to

 9     launch a particular combat operation, then he too, like other unit

10     commanders of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, were under my

11     technological command for the carrying out of that combat operation.  But

12     when it wasn't about the carrying out of a combat operation the units of

13     Western Bosnia were not under my command nor were they units of the SVK

14     or any other units under my command.  It even happened that we -- once we

15     planned a certain combat mission and a planned participant wouldn't take

16     part in the implementation, then it wouldn't be implemented.

17        Q.   Before the Pauk operation, what unit did he come from?

18        A.   Who are you asking me about, sir, Mr. Ulemek?

19        Q.   I'm asking you about the man in the far left of the photograph,

20     Legija.  Before Operation Pauk started he was in a military formation.

21     Can you tell us what military formation he was in?

22        A.   No, I don't know which military formation he was in.  You just

23     used his nickname to refer to him, Legija, whereas I called him by his

24     real name, Ulemek.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, Mr. Ulemek was a member of a paramilitary formation

Page 13474

 1     known as the Serb Volunteer Guard, wasn't he?  He was a member of Arkan's

 2     Tigers before he came to Operation Pauk; isn't that correct?

 3        A.   That Mr. Ulemek was a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in

 4     February 1993, that is correct; but outside that period and all the time

 5     until Operation Pauk is something I cannot possibly know.  But I know for

 6     certain that he was in February 1993 because I saw him on -- that unit

 7     came to help us after the Croatian offensive in Ravni Kotari in Dalmatia.

 8        Q.   And how many members of Arkan's Tigers came with Mr. Ulemek to

 9     assist in Operation Pauk?

10        A.   Mr. Harmon, I had no way of finding out who belongs to the Tigers

11     or anybody else.  I saw five or six men around Mr. Ulemek.  Whether there

12     were others who belonged there or elsewhere, I had no possibility to find

13     out nor did I have the desire to do so.

14        Q.   Why didn't you have the desire to do so?  You were the commander

15     of Operation -- of Operation Pauk.  Why didn't you have a desire to find

16     out what units within your available forces came from?

17        A.   Mr. Harmon, I was interested in the strength of those units and

18     the problems with the use of those units in combat.  I had no time to

19     check their IDs.  I didn't even have the right to check the files of any

20     member of the SVK to see which unit they belonged to.  Whoever was sent

21     there simply arrived and that there was no -- it wouldn't have been

22     logical for me to line them up and then check who belonged to which unit

23     and where they had come from.

24        Q.   Who sent Mr. Ulemek to Operation Pauk?

25        A.   I couldn't say, sir.

Page 13475

 1        Q.   Did you travel to Belgrade with Mr. Ulemek while you were

 2     commander of Operation Pauk?

 3        A.   Yes, once.

 4        Q.   And how long were you in Belgrade with Mr. Ulemek?

 5        A.   I wasn't in Belgrade with Mr. Ulemek.  I was there on my own

 6     without his company.  As far as I understood, he had some burning

 7     political problems, whereas I had my own activities there.  I believe

 8     that my stay there lasted for a day or two and I even think that he

 9     didn't return with us after that spell in Belgrade -- no, he didn't.

10        Q.   Do you remember when you travelled to Belgrade with Mr. Ulemek?

11        A.   I believe that was sometime at the beginning of 1995, Mr. Harmon,

12     but I cannot specify the date.

13        Q.   Okay.  Who summoned you to Belgrade with Legija, with Mr. Ulemek?

14        A.   I was supposed to go to visit Mr. Milosevic then, and I think

15     that Mr. Ulemek was supposed to meet Mr. Stanisic.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, when Mr. Ulemek was the commander of Tactical Group

17     2, how many men were under his command?

18        A.   I think it was approximately 1200, maybe at times 1500, men or

19     maybe I would be exaggerating.  Slightly above 1.000 men at any rate.

20        Q.   And Mr. Ulemek was convicted in March of 1993 [sic] for the

21     assassination of Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, wasn't he?

22        A.   Mr. Harmon, by my calculations that would be eight years.  I

23     don't know what your drift is and what is the connection between me and

24     that event.

25        Q.   Sir, if I say 19 -- can you just answer my question.  Mr. Ulemek

Page 13476

 1     was convicted only the 27th of May, 2007 - not 1993 as recorded - for the

 2     assassination of Mr. Djindjic; is that correct?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I truly do not know how relevant this

 6     question is for the testimony of this witness generally speaking.  If

 7     Mr. Harmon could explain.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it goes to discredit me in

 9     some way.  I don't know.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Relevance, Mr. Harmon?

11             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm just trying to complete the circle

12     on this -- who this person is and --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But relevance?

14             MR. HARMON:  Its relevance is that this man was a paramilitary,

15     and he was somebody who was sent to participate in this operation.  It is

16     relevant only to identify who he is and for no other purpose.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, we -- that's not the relevance we require,

18     Mr. Harmon.

19             MR. HARMON:  All right.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We want the relevance to this case.

21             MR. HARMON:  No, Your Honour, I can't establish that.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then we will strike it out.

23             MR. HARMON:  All right.

24        Q.   Let's go to the next man in this image, sir, the man that you

25     have identified as Mr. Medic, the man holding the binoculars.  What role

Page 13477

 1     did he have in the operation?

 2        A.   No role, Mr. Harmon.

 3        Q.   What was he doing in the trench with you and Mr. Ulemek on the

 4     6th of April, 1995?

 5        A.   Obviously, as can be seen here, he's observing his unit, some 50

 6     men that he'd brought from the eastern part of the Republic of Serbian

 7     Krajina.  At the time, pursuant to an order of an epidemiologist were

 8     isolated in quarantine because of an infectious disease that they

 9     contracted by using dirty water.  They were kept in isolation,

10     Madam Pajic, Dr. Pajic, epidemiologist treated them, and after they were

11     cured they were sent packing back from where they came from.  So his role

12     and the role of his units was non-existent.

13             MR. HARMON:  Can I have just a minute, Your Honours, I need to

14     consult that document.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. HARMON:

18        Q.   General, did he have a nickname?

19        A.   At the time, Mr. Harmon, I think they called him Boca because of

20     his first name, Slobodan.

21        Q.   What was the name of the -- of his unit?

22        A.   At the time there was no name, Mr. Harmon.  It was a company

23     which came from the Mirkovci Brigade, from the area of Djeletovci where

24     it was deployed, and as such they were dispatched probably pursuant to a

25     Main Staff of the SVK order for them to be temporarily in our

Page 13478

 1     composition.  It bore no other name, but I do know what you're getting at

 2     now, Mr. Harmon.

 3        Q.   Did the unit he commanded have the name the Skorpions?

 4        A.   Mr. Harmon, that unit did not bear that name at the time.  I can

 5     tell you frankly and you may or may not believe me.  After the war, after

 6     Skorpions started appearing in the press, I thought I knew several units

 7     on the Croatian and Serbian side who called themselves dangerous names,

 8     Skorpions, Cobras, Bears, Wolves, et cetera, but I never heard about

 9     Skorpions, and then I was surprised six, seven years ago when I heard

10     that Slobodan Medic's unit had been named Skorpions.  You may believe me,

11     you may not believe me, but I can't help it.  At the time that unit did

12     not bear the name Skorpions because I never heard such a name at the time

13     anywhere.

14        Q.   Let me see if I can jog your memory, General.  You indicated that

15     Mr. Medic came from -- I think you said a particular area.  I don't have

16     it on the transcript anymore.  But I want to submit to you that he was

17     part of a special task unit from Belgrade.  Does that refresh your

18     recollection, sir, as to where he came from?

19        A.   Nothing could refresh my memory in the direction of what I do not

20     know, Mr. Harmon.  While I was a commander I found him in the position

21     towards the village of Njemci as part of the Mirkovci Brigade.  Whether

22     he in the meantime changed his position or -- after I no longer was

23     commander of the SVK is something I don't -- do not know, neither could I

24     know anything of the sort.

25        Q.   Okay.  Was the first time you met this man in -- on the 6th of

Page 13479

 1     April in the particular trench where you found yourselves together?

 2        A.   For the third time in my testimony, Mr. Harmon, I repeat I saw

 3     him while I toured the 11th Corps and the positions of the Mirkovci

 4     Brigade.  I cannot specify the number of that brigade.  And that's --

 5     that brigade was in the oilfields of Djeletovci and manned the front line

 6     facing the village of Nijemci.  This is the third time that I repeat

 7     this.

 8        Q.   Sir, when you were the commander of Operation Pauk and he came

 9     toward -- and he came to participate with a unit in Operation Pauk, was

10     this the first time - the 6th of April - that you met him?  I'm talking

11     in the context of Operation Pauk.  I'm not talking in terms of the

12     oilfields at Djeletovci.

13        A.   Yes, Mr. Harmon.  When he came into the composition of this

14     group, that was the second time that I clapped my eyes on him in my life.

15             MR. HARMON:  Could I --

16        Q.   I want to show you a photograph of -- another photograph and I

17     want you to see if you can identify this individual.  It's XN398.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we go to that photograph, what do you want

19     to do with this one?

20             MR. HARMON:  I don't intend to seek its admission, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.  XN398.  What's the purpose?

22             MR. HARMON:  I just want to see if he can identify an individual

23     in a photograph.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no problems if the purpose is

Page 13480

 1     the same.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Harmon.

 4             MR. HARMON:

 5        Q.   General, are you able to identify the man in the middle of the

 6     photograph wearing a moustache?

 7        A.   That is Colonel Nikola Bobic of the SVK.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.  I've concluded my examination.  I appreciate

 9     your patience.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon.

11             On that note can we take a break and come back at quarter to

12     11.00.  Court adjourned.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the record show that Exhibit XN398 was not

16     tendered.

17             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, if I, with the Court's permission, may

18     re-open for a few minutes, I want to ask the witness some questions that

19     arose as a result of his testimony at the end of the hour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Novakovic will be

23     the most affected.  Only briefly, because I believe we should be through

24     with the General today.  I leave it in your hands to determine that,

25     since I have not started my re-direct.

Page 13481

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may re-open.

 2             MR. HARMON:

 3        Q.   Sir, I want to focus my attention on your evidence that's found

 4     at page 25, line -- starting at line 4 when I asked you if the unit that

 5     was under the command of Mr. Medic was known as the Skorpions.  And what

 6     you -- your answer was that after the war the Skorpions started appearing

 7     in the press.  You went on to say:

 8             "But I never heard about the Skorpions and I was surprised six or

 9     seven years ago when I heard that Slobodan Medic's unit had been named

10     the Skorpions.  You may believe me, you may not believe me, but I can't

11     help it.  At that time that unit did not bear the name Skorpions because

12     I never heard such a name at that time anywhere."

13             Sir, I want to show you, if I could have XN315 on the -- as an

14     exhibit and I want to show you a portion of this video at 18 --

15     00:18:02.0?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Purpose, Mr. Harmon?

17             MR. HARMON:  To impeach the witness, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object it being used for

21     impeachment.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Harmon.

24             MR. HARMON:

25        Q.   Sir, do you see the image that is before you at 00:18:02.0?

Page 13482

 1        A.   I can see it.  I don't know what the date of the document is.  I

 2     don't know its provenance and this is the first time that I see it.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise the patch that's on the beret of the soldier who

 4     is in the centre of the image?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon, if the witness is seeing this for the

 6     first time, how does he recognise?

 7             MR. HARMON:  Because the image of what is on the patch is very

 8     clear.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can see it, but recognise -- I suppose you're

10     suggesting that -- recognise from somewhere else?

11             MR. HARMON:  No, then let me rephrase my question.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

13             MR. HARMON:

14        Q.   Can you, sir, identify the patch that is on the beret of the man

15     in the centre of the image?

16        A.   On this screen 18:02, the date 6th of April, 1995.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under 9 it is stated

19     unintelligible.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the witness looking at and what are we

21     looking at?

22             MR. HARMON:  I don't know.  I'm looking at an image at 18:02 --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And there's no date of 6 April, 1995, on this that

24     I can see.

25             MR. HARMON:  I can't see a date either.

Page 13483

 1        Q.   So, Witness, what are you referring to when you say -- when you

 2     see a date?  Perhaps you can assist us.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Novakovic, I can help by seeing

 4     the reflection in the glass.  I would like to instruct Mr. Novakovic not

 5     to look at the document on one screen, but rather at the image on another

 6     screen.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see a photo on this

 8     left-hand screen.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can -- could the Court Officer please -- court

10     usher please make sure that the witness is looking at the picture that we

11     are all looking at.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

14             MR. HARMON:

15        Q.   Sir, are you able to identify that patch that is on the man's

16     beret in the image that is before you?

17        A.   I cannot, Mr. Harmon.  I've never seen a beret bearing such a

18     patch.

19             MR. HARMON:  Could we -- Ms. Javier, could you go to the next

20     image, please.

21        Q.   Okay.  You have another image in front of you, sir, it is at

22     00:18:03.0.  Can you identify the patch that is on this man's beret?

23        A.   I cannot, Mr. Harmon.  This is part of a footage that was

24     broadcast five or six years ago, and the images on the TV screen were

25     unclear, making it impossible to make out the insignia or patches, and

Page 13484

 1     that was broadcast ten years after Operation Pauk.  But I can tell you

 2     with certainty that such people did not wear such patches during the

 3     Operation Pauk.  On the photograph that we discussed, Mr. Medic wore a

 4     hat, camouflage hat.  This is not from that operation.  What I saw on TV

 5     after the war, this refers to footage of them before they went into some

 6     other combat action.  In April 1995 in the area that we discussed, those

 7     people did not wear such berets.  This is the truth.

 8        Q.   Sir, the image that is on this man's beret is of a scorpion.  You

 9     can see clearly a tail at the top of the image and you can see at the

10     bottom two sets of claws.  It's a scorpion, isn't it, yes or no?

11        A.   Mr. Harmon, this resembles a swan in my perception.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, we have -- we'll go to the next image if we could.

13             MR. HARMON:  Could we have -- let me just have the -- we'll go to

14     a different item.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. -- carry on.

16             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I would ask that this image be admitted

17     for purposes of impeachment.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How does it impeach?

19             MR. HARMON:  In -- it is our submission, Your Honour, that the

20     image depicts a scorpion --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It may very well be, but the witness says he --

22     he'd never had it at the time when he was a commander.  He never saw

23     anybody wearing this at the time when he was a commander.  He's not

24     denying that this may not be a scorpion.

25             MR. HARMON:  Let's go to the next image, then, Your Honour, if we

Page 13485

 1     could.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, no.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Then --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Listen to my point.

 5             MR. HARMON:  I heard Your Honour and I accept Your Honour's point

 6     and perhaps I could defer -- I don't want to talk over Your Honour.  I'm

 7     sorry.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  I'm trying to say this -- yes, we can

 9     see it's a scorpion.  If this soldier wore this uniform with this patch

10     on his head at the time of Pauk, Operation Pauk, that would impeach the

11     witness.  But if the witness says they didn't wear this kind of thing at

12     the time, I saw it ten years after the war, how does that impeach him?

13             MR. HARMON:  Could I go to the next image, Your Honour, and

14     perhaps that will enlighten us?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You go to the next one.

16             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

17             Actually, if we can go to XN391 and have that on the monitor.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  XN315, what happens to it?

19             MR. HARMON:  Nothing at the moment, Your Honour.  I'm not seeking

20     its in admission at the moment, but if I could have XN391 on the monitor.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I guess it's still for the same purpose of

22     impeachment?

23             MR. HARMON:  It is, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

25             Mr. Lukic.

Page 13486

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object to its being shown to

 2     the witness for purposes of impeachment.

 3             MR. HARMON:

 4        Q.   Witness, the person in the far right of this image is you, isn't

 5     it?

 6             Did you hear my question, Witness?  Is that you in the far right

 7     of this image?

 8        A.   That's me, Mr. Harmon.

 9        Q.   Was that image shot during Operation Pauk?

10        A.   It was, Mr. Harmon.

11        Q.   Who is the man wearing the black beret who is to your immediate

12     right?

13        A.   I cannot claim unequivocally because of the blurred photo.

14     Colonel Bulat is the person with his back to us.  I can recognise him by

15     his stature.

16        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask that -- [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I ask that this image be -- I'm not

19     going to seek its admission now.  I would like to play just a small

20     portion of the video from which this was taken.  It might be able to

21     assist the witness in his identification of the man wearing the black

22     beret.  That would be XN315.  If we could play that image, Your Honour --

23     this part of XN315.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. HARMON:

Page 13487

 1        Q.   Did that assist you, sir, in identifying the man wearing the

 2     beret?

 3        A.   It's possible that Mr. Medic, who we discussed today, was that

 4     person.  But I cannot claim beyond doubt, but it's possible that it is

 5     Mr. Medic, the man we referred to today.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MR. HARMON:  This video, Your Honour, is at 00:51:37.

 8        Q.   Can you -- does that assist you in identifying what the logo was

 9     on his beret -- on his black beret?

10        A.   It does not assist me.  I do not recall at all what was on that

11     black beret.  I'm telling you that his men either wore hats or nothing

12     at -- on their heads.  I never paid any attention to any such patches or

13     head-gear or insignia.  But absolutely I deny that anybody referred to

14     them by that name.  You won't find that anywhere.

15             MR. HARMON:  Just a minute, Your Honour.  I just want to find

16     another portion of this film.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MR. HARMON:

19        Q.   Sir, I want to show you --

20             MR. HARMON:  I want to defer admission on this document and just

21     show the witness one other image.  If we could play a portion of XN315,

22     starting at 00:00:56.4, if we could play that.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. HARMON:  I've stopped this image at 00:01:07.1.

25        Q.   And you see a man in the -- in a kind of a greenish jacket

Page 13488

 1     wearing a hat and his hands are in his pocket.  Who is that, sir?

 2        A.   I don't know, Mr. Harmon.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's see if we can continue to play this and you

 4     might be able to recognise him.  I want you to also pay attention to the

 5     people he is addressing in -- they're wearing black, they're in a

 6     standing formation, they have berets, and the beret has an insignia on

 7     it.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see these men,

10     Mr. Harmon, and I'm certain that this photograph was not taken in the

11     period we've been referring to or, indeed, in the place we've been

12     referring to.

13             MR. HARMON:

14        Q.   Okay.  Who was the man who had his hands in his pocket and he had

15     a green jacket on and he was addressing the men in the black?  Wasn't

16     that Mr. Medic?

17        A.   I cannot be certain because the photograph is blurred.  I can

18     only make assumptions, but I don't want to do that.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's -- we'll continue to play this.  It might be of

20     assistance to you, and we'll just focus on the flag that is in the right

21     side of this image at 00:01:27.2.  You recognise what is in that image?

22        A.   You mean here in front?

23        Q.   Yes, sir.  There's a flag that is next to the -- between the

24     second and third men from the right side of the image.  You can see a

25     flag with a yellowish image.  Do you know what that is?  Isn't that a

Page 13489

 1     scorpion?

 2        A.   If it is, then how come it has two heads?  I'm not saying it

 3     isn't, but how can a scorpion have two tails, one going left, one right?

 4     And what does that have to do with the presence of a unit at a certain

 5     time in a certain place?  I'm saying that this photograph wasn't taken in

 6     the area we've been referring to or at the time we've been referring to.

 7             MR. HARMON:  Can you continue, Ms. Javier, and play this.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. HARMON:  Stop the image right there.

10        Q.   Who is that gentleman?  Are you able to identify the man in the

11     camouflage uniform at 00:02:38.3?

12        A.   Absolutely not.

13        Q.   And the man to his left with the moustache?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   I see a man in a camouflage uniform and one to his right, but I

17     can't see anybody to his left.

18        Q.   There is a man at the right side of the image who is to the left

19     of the man in the camouflage uniform, and he has a moustache.  Can you

20     identify that man?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   We'll continue to play this film.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. HARMON:

25        Q.   Sir, we stopped at film at 00:04:29.6.  Do you recognise these

Page 13490

 1     clergymen?

 2        A.   I saw these clergymen in a footage that was broadcast as part of

 3     a film about the Skorpions five or six years ago on Serbian TV.  I cannot

 4     confirm or deny what was said on TV then, but they were reporting about

 5     their preparations before their departure to Eastern Bosnia in the summer

 6     of 1995.  That's what was said then, that they were blessed by these

 7     clergymen before their departure.  That's what was said about them.  I

 8     saw this on television a few years ago several times.  And now you are

 9     again reproducing this footage from Serbian TV.  This was said to portray

10     their preparations before departure to Eastern Bosnia.  I don't know the

11     persons that you have just shown me nor do I know these clergymen.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we have stopped this film at timer --

13     I've already indicated the timer number, so I have no further -- we're

14     not going to view this film any further.  I'm going to seek admission of

15     these items, but not at the moment until I can lay a better foundation

16     for them.  So I've concluded my examination of this witness on this

17     particular point and I thank you, Your Honours, for permitting me to

18     re-open my cross-examination.

19        Q.   Thank you, General.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

21             Mr. Lukic.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General, once more.

24        A.   Good morning to you, too, sir.

25        Q.   I hope this is the last time we meet on these premises.  I'm

Page 13491

 1     going to ask you a few questions about the topics that Mr. Harmon dealt

 2     with.  I'll be very concrete and I'll try to elicit short answers.  We'll

 3     see whether they will be easy too.

 4        A.   We'll try to achieve that.

 5        Q.   On the 1st of August [as interpreted], at the beginning of your

 6     examination-in-chief, on the transcript page 13318, showed you extracts

 7     from a personnel file and asked you whether in that file there is a

 8     remark that at the time you were not an active-duty serviceman of the VJ,

 9     you remember.  And then you said that you had shown me -- that I had

10     shown you a document when your service in the VJ finished.  Let us see

11     Prosecution Exhibit P1783.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you said on the 1st of August, did you mean

13     to say the 31st of August?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Harmon began his

15     examination on the 1st of September.  Let me check.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  September, not August?  Okay.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, what can you say us about this document?  Do you

19     know it?  Is this your signature?  And what is it about?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.  This document is my statement that at the time

21     of the withdrawal of the JNA from the territory of the Serbian Krajina, I

22     do not agree to going to Serbia, to Yugoslavia, but wish to remain in the

23     territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

24        Q.   It's dated 8 May 1992.  We can see it on the document.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13492

 1        Q.   After giving the statement, were you a member of the VJ?

 2        A.   No, I was not a member of the VJ in the sense of serving in the

 3     VJ, but I still had the status of an officer of the VJ, as a former

 4     member of the JNA.

 5        Q.   Based on that status, did you enjoy certain status-related

 6     privileges as a member of the VJ?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   In that context Mr. Harmon asked you, upon which you explained

 9     what you've just said, that you were no longer serving in the VJ from the

10     moment you signed this statement.  Now let me ask you a general question.

11     What kind of relations are there in -- when you serve in a military?

12        A.   They're the relations of subordination, military hierarchy, and

13     singleness of command.

14        Q.   Did these relations exist when you were in the SVK?

15        A.   Yes, naturally.

16        Q.   Were there such relations in service under the law for those

17     serving in the VJ?

18        A.   Yes, of course.

19        Q.   While you were a member of the SVK, did you have a relationship

20     of subordination with anybody from the VJ?

21        A.   No, because I was in the political leadership --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

23     sentence.  Just a moment.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Lukic.

25             Mr. Novakovic, the witness is -- I beg your pardon, the

Page 13493

 1     interpreter would like you to repeat your last answer, please.  You said:

 2             "No, because I was in the political leadership --" and then the

 3     interpreter didn't hear the rest.  What did you say.  Okay.  Tell us what

 4     you said.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said the following:

 6     No, because I was subordinated to the Supreme Defence Council of the

 7     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I must caution both myself and you to go a bit

12     slower for the sake of the interpreters.  We must go back to that rhythm

13     of ours.

14        A.   All right.

15        Q.   Did General Perisic or his predecessor, General Zivota Panic,

16     transfer to you or were they able to transfer to you any authority to be

17     in -- to have a position of authority in the SVK?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   I'll move on to a different topic.  Mr. Harmon showed you a

20     document by means of which in the year 2000 you contacted the personnel

21     administration of the VJ and requested to be paid out the unpaid annual

22     leave benefits for the years 1993, 1994, and 1995.  My question is the

23     following:  In 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995 while you were in the war, did

24     it matter to you to get compensation for annual leave not requested?

25        A.   No, I did -- I never even thought of taking annual leave.

Page 13494

 1        Q.   Did you know whether or not your officer colleagues from the SVK

 2     at that time minded not being paid benefit for annual leave not requested

 3     during the war?

 4        A.   No, but they --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please once again repeat his

 6     last answer.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry, I beg your pardon, gentlemen.

 8             Mr. Lukic and Mr. Novakovic, can you please slow down and allow

 9     each other time to answer.  We understand that you speak the same

10     language, but when one of you finishes talking, there is interpretation

11     still taking place.

12             Now, Mr. Novakovic, the question was:

13             "Did you know whether or not your officer colleagues from the SVK

14     at that time minded not being paid benefits for annual leave not

15     requested during the war?"

16             And then you had just started answering:

17             "No, but they --"

18             And then we couldn't hear what you said.  Can you please repeat

19     your answer to that question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but sometimes they requested

21     leave to take care of some important private and family-related issues,

22     with that leave counting against their annual leave.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13495

 1        Q.   Who would they turn to to be granted this sort of leave?

 2        A.   Each one of them would turn to their commander.

 3        Q.   Of which army?

 4        A.   Of the SVK, that's the army we're talking about.

 5        Q.   Mr. Harmon also showed parts of the discussion at the collegium

 6     of the Chief of Staff of the VJ about what he called the Bulat case about

 7     those inquiries, as it was mentioned within the General Staff of the VJ.

 8     Let me ask you the following:  We saw that statement that you signed in

 9     Banja Luka about wishing to commence service in the VJ in September 1995.

10     Do you remember giving testimony to that effect and to what Mrksic said

11     to you?

12        A.   That statement says that I agree to be appointed to the VJ

13     pursuant to a decision of the General Staff.

14        Q.   Correct.  Do you know whether Mr. Bulat also made such a

15     statement, was this something that was required of him too?

16        A.   I cannot confirm that because Colonel Bulat wasn't in Banja Luka

17     with us then.

18        Q.   Did the SVK in its structure have military disciplinary courts?

19        A.   While I was commander, no.

20        Q.   And the Law on the Serbian Army of the Krajina, does it envisage

21     the existence of military disciplinary courts, do you remember?

22        A.   The existence of military disciplinary courts and military

23     criminal courts was envisaged; however, we didn't have personnel to

24     establish them.

25        Q.   I'm specifically interested in military disciplinary courts,

Page 13496

 1     whether they were established within units or commands, but you don't

 2     know what -- how that developed once you were replaced, at least that is

 3     how I understand your previous answer.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know where you get that understanding,

 5     Mr. Lukic.  Nothing developed during -- when he was commander.  He says

 6     he didn't have these disciplinary -- military disciplinary courts.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  Now what are you talking about what

 9     developed and what replaced what?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My question was whether the witness

11     knew that after his replacement from the position of commander of the SVK

12     military disciplinary courts started functioning in the SVK, that was my

13     question.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Phrase it that way.  That's much better.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   When, according to you, did the SVK cease to exist as an

18     organised army?

19        A.   On the 10th of August, 1995.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on to another topic that has to do with

21     Mr. Harmon's examination.  On the same day Mr. Harmon asked you about

22     your housing odyssey to call it that, and you said that your request for

23     housing to be provided to you was only solved - which year was it?

24        A.   1998 I think -- 1997 or 1998.

25        Q.   All right.  What I would like to know is the following:  You said

Page 13497

 1     that in the Raska garrison it was found, although you had never been

 2     there serving in the military; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   My question will be this:  Do you recall when you filed your

 5     request for housing?  When was it that you lodged it?

 6        A.   Yes, Mr. Lukic.  I filed it in May 1992, when the JNA was

 7     withdrawing from the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   Do you know when the personnel centres were established or -- in

 9     other words, was the 40th Personnel Centre in function at the time when

10     you lodged your housing request?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let's broach another subject.

13             Mr. Harmon showed you documents - now I'm referring to your

14     examination-in-chief - concerning contacts you had with Mr. Nambiar and

15     Mr. Goulding.  He showed you UN documents, you remember, concerning their

16     reports, focusing on the special units of police.  His thesis, my learned

17     friend's thesis, was that in those reports those units were labelled as

18     paramilitary and that the UN was critical of them.  My question to you

19     is:  Let's be precise, did you while you were commander of the 80th

20     Brigade of special units of police, did you have immediate and personal

21     contacts with both Mr. Nambiar and Mr. Goulding?

22        A.   With Mr. Nambiar, yes, directly; and with respect to contacts

23     with Mr. Goulding, I was related of those contacts by the person who took

24     part in those contacts and conversations.

25        Q.   What's the name of that person?

Page 13498

 1        A.   Milos Zivkovic, the late Milos Zivkovic.

 2        Q.   Did General Nambiar in talking to you criticise the existence of

 3     special units of police and sought measures in respect of those?

 4        A.   No, he did not, Mr. Lukic.

 5        Q.   Did any representative of the political leadership of the RSK

 6     relate any information to you that representatives of the UN wanted those

 7     special units of police to be disbanded?

 8        A.   No, Mr. Lukic.

 9        Q.   I'm moving to another subject.  Mr. Harmon showed you an entry

10     from General Mladic's diary relating to the 8th of November, 1993,

11     meeting, a meeting attended by representatives of both political and

12     military leaderships, both of the FRY, the Republika Srpska, and Republic

13     of Serbian Krajina.  And he showed you an entry relating to the words of

14     Minister Rakic and tried to elicit your comment, and you discussed the

15     financial and materiel condition of the SVK at the time.  That would be

16     page 17 of LiveNote of the 31st of August [as interpreted].  You stated

17     that you started wearing people out with your constant requests?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Could you please explain who did you wear out and why did you

20     repeat your requests time and again?

21        A.   I started wearing General Perisic and Mr. Milosevic out and all

22     those representatives of Serbia's leadership, and I started wearing out

23     the representatives of the government and leadership of the RSK.  And for

24     that reason, I stopped attending those co-ordination of tasks meetings at

25     the General Staff of the VJ because I saw no purpose being served by my

Page 13499

 1     attendance.

 2        Q.   I'm moving on to another subject, but pertaining to the same

 3     portion of Mr. Harmon's cross-questioning -- cross-examination, when it

 4     came to fuel or oil, in connection with that you mentioned the Pancevo

 5     refinery.  As you explained, oil products would be obtained from them on

 6     the basis of the arrangements that you explained.  First of all, under

 7     whose jurisdiction was the oil refinery of Pancevo at the time?

 8        A.   The Government of Serbia.

 9        Q.   Did the VJ have -- hold any authority over the Pancevo oil

10     refinery or oil industry at large?

11        A.   This was never so and it is difficult for me to presume that

12     something of the sort would be possible.

13        Q.   You were also shown by Mr. Harmon an entry concerning the sending

14     of 3- to 5.000 members of the VRS to Lika, purporting to be the words of

15     President Milosevic, and you replied to the best of your knowledge that

16     two battalions or up to 1.000 men were sent.  Do you recall saying that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Is it known to you whether anybody else -- anybody was brought to

19     account or castigated that only 1.000 and not 3- to 5.000 men were sent

20     after this conversation with President Milosevic?

21        A.   Nobody was held responsible, neither did I resent that because I

22     simply knew that they did not have the men available.

23        Q.   Let us deal with a number of issues concerning your replies

24     concerning the documents on the Drina War Plan.  Answering

25     Mr. Harmon - and that would be page 31 of LiveNote of the 2nd of

Page 13500

 1     December [as interpreted] - you said that with respect to the new Drina

 2     Plan, unit war plans remained intact because, as you said, this next step

 3     for the implementation of that plan never materialised.  Do you recall

 4     that answer?

 5        A.   Yes, I do recall that answer.

 6        Q.   Could you please tell us here, as a military expert, what would

 7     be the definition of co-ordinated action by units?

 8        A.   Co-ordinated action is aligning the actions against the target in

 9     time and place and by type of manoeuvre.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a second, please.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Units which are carrying out a co-ordinating action, irrespective

14     of which army or several armies at the time, what would be their mutual

15     relationship?

16        A.   Co-ordinated action is organised among units of the same level.

17     The term "co-ordinated action," Mr. Lukic, is referring to combat

18     actions.  This is something I dealt with in my post-grad studies and this

19     is a very precise military term.

20        Q.   For units to act in co-ordinated fashion, what is necessary to

21     have an operation carried out in co-ordinated action in terms of

22     preparations for that?

23        A.   On the basis of the basic idea of the commander, a co-ordinated

24     action plan is drafted, you go out in the field, commander performs a

25     reconnaissance, and then the plan is tied to a certain area, facilities,

Page 13501

 1     lines on the ground.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please define the term "co-ordinated action," and that

 5     is in the transcript, 47, row 7.  Could you please repeat your definition

 6     of co-ordinated action.  There are certain discrepancy in the

 7     translation.

 8        A.   It is alignment of actions by target, time, place, and manoeuvre.

 9     These are my exact words.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show on the screen

11     Exhibit P215.  That would be the Drina directive.  I would like you,

12     please, to show us page 9 in B/C/S and 9 in English.  I'm mistaken with

13     respect to both pages.  Please, can we go back one page in B/C/S for a

14     moment.  Let's keep the English page here and then we will turn the page.

15        Q.   Please take a look at the paragraph headed:

16             "Task of the armed forces.

17             "1.  Yugoslav Army."

18             And let's go -- let's turn both pages in B/C/S and English.

19     There is a portion of a sentence that I'd like to comment -- or elicit

20     comment from the witness about.

21             Your Honours, the relevant portion in English is the large

22     paragraph starting with:  "Upon completing mobilisation ..."

23             General, I'm going to read the beginning of the sentence on the

24     preceding page, which continues on this page.

25             "Upon completing the mobilisation, the main forces are used to

Page 13502

 1     organise the defence from the area of Hungary, Macedonia in the depth of

 2     the territory, and Albania and part of the forces to be used for

 3     co-ordinated action with SVK to dominate the line

 4     Josipovic-Mikanovci-Samac and use VRS to destroy the enemy forces in the

 5     Drina valley to take control over eastern Herzegovina and the left bank

 6     of the Neretva river at the Mostar-Neum section."

 7             I believe I have trouble with the English translation, but let me

 8     ask you this:  This is the task for the VJ pursuant to this Drina Plan,

 9     and it says -- said that in offensive actions they have to co-ordinate

10     their actions with SVK to -- for that to be possible, what needs to be

11     done beforehand to have this joint action by the VJ and the SVK?

12        A.   What is necessary is insert into the war plans of the SVK and the

13     VJ in the next step of the preparations of war plans, first of all, to

14     plan and draw on the map the tasks of units and prepare a separate

15     co-ordinated action or joint action plan, and then go out in the field

16     with unit commanders that are supposed to act in that designated area and

17     precise everything out on the ground, and that would be the

18     implementation of a plan as a plan.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go, please, to the next page

20     in B/C/S and the next page in English.

21             Your Honours, I'm going to read out the first sentence of this

22     paragraph where mention of SVK is made.

23        Q.    "SVK -- the SVK with VRS reinforcements and in co-ordination

24     action with POd and special VJ forces ..." et cetera, et cetera?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I've been trying to follow what you're

Page 13503

 1     reading.  I can't see.  Which paragraph is that one which starts with the

 2     VJ or SVK?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the English translation

 4     doesn't match what I read out in Serbian.  It's the first paragraph under

 5     the title:  "The Serbian Army of the Krajina."

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the third paragraph in both

 7     Serbian and English.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I will read out the paragraph once more in Serbian -- or maybe

10     you, General, read out this first paragraph first because of the

11     abbreviations.

12        A.   "The Serbian Army of the Krajina with VRS reinforcements and in

13     co-ordinated action with forward detachments of special VJ forces is to

14     prevent any surprises ..."

15        Q.   Special forces of the VJ are mentioned here.  General, do you

16     know whether at any time anybody contacted you about the implementation

17     of what is said in this document about the co-ordinated action of your

18     army?

19        A.   No, sir.

20        Q.   One other brief comment.  On the same page in the B/C/S version

21     and in the following page of the English version, the use of

22     anti-aircraft defence and air force is mentioned, and I'll read out the

23     first sentence:

24             "With RV and PVO forces in co-ordinated action with ground forces

25     PVO," that is, anti-aircraft defence, "organised a joint anti-aircraft

Page 13504

 1     system with the focus on the protection of the armed forces, features,

 2     and most significant administrative and military and industrial centres

 3     in the RS, RSK, and FRY."

 4             Was a single anti-aircraft defence system ever established?

 5        A.   No, sir.

 6        Q.   General, all these facts that you have spoken about with regard

 7     to the implementation of this plan, what did all this tell you, that

 8     nobody contacted you from the --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic please repeat his last

10     sentence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you are requested to please repeat your

12     question.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

14        Q.   General, given the fact that you didn't contact anybody in the VJ

15     or the VRS concerning the subsequent development of this plan, what did

16     that tell you at the time?

17             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

19             MR. HARMON:  I'm going to object.  I'm not sure I understand the

20     question.  Whether he didn't contact anybody.  I'm not sure what that --

21     I'm not sure I don't comprehend the question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed it doesn't make much sense couched like

23     that.  The previous question, which now Mr. Lukic has departed from, was

24     given that -- well, General, all these facts that you have spoken about

25     with regards to the implementation of this plan, what did all this tell

Page 13505

 1     you that nobody contacted you from -- and then you didn't finish that

 2     sentence.  Now, I don't know whether you want the witness to tell you

 3     what it tells him that he did not contact anybody.  What can tell him

 4     anything is that nobody contacted him.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I wanted to hear

 6     from the witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Except that the two questions are different, sir.

 8     The first question was -- yeah -- I think that is what --

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

10        Q.   General, what did it mean to you, I mean the fact that you

11     weren't in contact from anybody -- with anybody from the VJ and the VRS

12     concerning the further implementation of this Drina Plan?

13        A.   That the Drina Plan would never be implemented.

14        Q.   When did you arrive at that conclusion?  And I'm referring to

15     November 1993 when the Drina Plan was drafted.

16        A.   Even then I thought that it would be very difficult to implement

17     the Drina Plan.  If you want to know why, I can state my reasons.

18        Q.   I'm asking you when you realised that the Drina Plan would never

19     be implemented.  When did you arrive at that conclusion?

20        A.   At the moment when the commanders - the officers in charge in the

21     VJ and in the VRS - refused -- or rather, failed to arrive from the areas

22     where according to that plan their units should have been and where the

23     tasks of those units should have been elaborated in more detail.  It was

24     then.

25        Q.   If this document was adopted in November 1993 -- November 1993

Page 13506

 1     anyway, when did you expect them to arrive to do that?

 2        A.   All documents of the war plan at all levels of planning should

 3     have been completed within two or three weeks.  That is a realistic

 4     dead-line for making such a plan at all levels.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this a convenient moment for the

 6     break, Your Honours?  I'll have a few questions for the witness left,

 7     because I'm about to move on to another topic and only a few minutes are

 8     left.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at half past

10     12.00.  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see P2923 on our

15     screens, please.

16        Q.   It's a document that Mr. Harmon showed to us during his

17     examination.  It's your order dated 28 August 1993, where it is mentioned

18     that you ordered for -- ordered that action against targets in Osijek and

19     Vinkovci be planned and in case of artillery action also against Zagreb.

20     Do you remember that Mr. Harmon put it to you that Zagreb is singled out

21     and not mentioned with the rest of the towns that constitute military

22     targets?  So let me first ask you:  What does "planning" mean and what

23     was the purpose of this order?

24        A.   For the artillery, planning means determining all three

25     co-ordinates of a particular target, not as an object in space but I mean

Page 13507

 1     a particular target.  Then decide on a type of weapons and the type of

 2     fire to be opened.

 3        Q.   Do you know which targets in the city of Zagreb were selected to

 4     be taken action against?

 5        A.   I don't remember precisely for any of these towns.  They may have

 6     been targets that are the headquarters of the highest state authorities

 7     in charge of the army or targets of the police or military forces used

 8     against us.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I have finished with this document.

10             Yesterday Mr. Harmon showed or put to you the allegations in the

11     court decision from 1995 by a Croatian court sentencing you to 20 years

12     of imprisonment because of the shelling of some towns in Croatia.  Here's

13     my question to you:  Apart from the occasion when you gave an interview

14     to the OTP of this Tribunal, did you ever meet any representatives of the

15     OTP; and if so, where and when?

16        A.   I had several encounters with investigators of the ICTY even at

17     the time when they were banned from entering Serbia, as I said.  To the

18     best of my recollection, in September 2001 in the building used by the

19     Tribunal in Belgrade Mr. Savo Strbac and I met Ms. Carla del Ponte.  Her

20     head of office was there, I believe her name was -- she was later held

21     responsible for contempt of court here --

22        Q.   That doesn't matter.  But what was the topic of the conversation?

23        A.   Ms. Carla del Ponte asked --

24             MR. HARMON:  Objection, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

Page 13508

 1             MR. HARMON:  Objection, Your Honour.  I'm not sure how this

 2     relates to my cross-examination, a meeting with Carla del Ponte.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, that's the answer that was given.  That was

 4     not the question put.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Yes, so I object to that continued questioning on

 6     this because it has no bearing on my cross-examination.  The question

 7     that starts out is -- relates to a question I asked in respect of charges

 8     that -- a conviction against General Novakovic that was entered in a

 9     Croatian court in 1995.  We have now drifted to a conversation that

10     General Novakovic had with Carla del Ponte.  It is not relevant, as far

11     as I can see, nor is it particularly responsive to the question, nor,

12     Your Honour, does it relate -- have any relationship to my

13     cross-examination.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that it relates to the

16     cross-examination and has a direct bearing on what Mr. Harmon put to the

17     witness concerning his conviction by Croatian court.  That is why I want

18     to ask him what information he received from the OTP concerning these

19     particular matters.  Since Mr. Harmon tried to impeach the witness by

20     asking these questions, I want to ask the witness what information he had

21     concerning what he was charged with.  And it is -- I believe that is

22     relevant for the Trial Chamber.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That last sentence you make is a question you can

24     put to the witness.  The rest is -- has nothing to do with the crimes

25     in -- alleged in Croatia.  You can ask him what information he has about

Page 13509

 1     the alleged crimes, but the conversation with members of the OTP -- he

 2     was not charged by the members of this OTP in Croatia.  And I guess

 3     that's why Mr. Harmon is standing.

 4             It would be perfectly correct to ask him what information he

 5     received from anybody about the allegations in Croatia, and if he

 6     received any information from Carla del Ponte so be it.  But you can't

 7     introduce the topic by directing him to OTP.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   General, you heard what kind of answer we're trying to elicit

10     from you, namely, what kind of information you received concerning the

11     charges Mr. Harmon spoke to you about and in -- and the link between you

12     and those charges.

13        A.   I spoke directly to Ms. del Ponte about what the Croats, the

14     Croatian judiciary, charges me with and about the information they passed

15     on to the OTP of this Tribunal.  And I said to her if she considers me

16     responsible for anything, that I would be willing to go to The Hague

17     immediately because I have no reason to hide nor did I do anything wrong.

18     Ms. del Ponte said to me that she doesn't have anything against me,

19     anything to charge me with.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'll refer to the questions asked to you today by

21     Mr. Harmon.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see what was admitted

23     today as Exhibit P2927.

24        Q.   Mr. Harmon showed you this today.  It's entitled a regular combat

25     report which you sent to certain addressees, among others to the Chief of

Page 13510

 1     the General Staff of the VJ.  It is dated 11 May 1995, as you see in the

 2     letterhead --

 3             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I think this is the problem

 4     with this document.  It is dated the -- there are two dates, one date in

 5     the Serbian-language version and one date in the English version.  So I

 6     believe Mr. Lukic pointed out that discrepancy earlier.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  Obviously it's been

 8     uploaded in different versions.  I would like to ask my learned

 9     colleague, the version that he showed to the witness is the one dated the

10     3rd of May, 1995.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the version in English, but the thing is

13     that the B/C/S is dated differently.

14             MR. HARMON:  I think I can assist in this matter, Your Honour.

15     If we could have B/C/S version -- B/C/S language page 2 of XN -- I'm

16     sorry, P2927 --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  2927.

18             MR. HARMON:  -- if we could have B/C/S page 2, that will resolve

19     the dilemma.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's fine.  The B/C/S is dated the 11th.

21     The English is dated the 3rd.  Is it 3rd now?  It was 11th just now a few

22     minutes ago.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. HARMON:  They have been reconciled now, the two exhibits,

25     Your Honour, on the monitor.  They're both the 3rd of May.

Page 13511

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But how did that date of the 11th change?

 2             MR. HARMON:  I can't say that.  I believe that the exhibit that

 3     was put on that showed the 11th of May was a different page in a larger

 4     document.  I can only speculate.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 6             Go on, Mr. ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am not absolutely satisfied with the

 9     explanation.  Both these pages purport to be first pages of a document.

10     That's why they've got a date on them and a heading.  Either -- if this

11     one dated the 3rd of May is the original of which the English version is

12     a translation, then the one dated the 11th should then be - what is the

13     word? - what is the opposite of uploading?  Must be offloaded from --

14     must be offloaded because then it -- I suspect that is a different

15     exhibit completely, and I don't think it has been tendered.  It came in

16     by mistake.  The intention was to tender the one dated the 3rd, but we

17     were given something wrong.  So that one must come off.

18             MR. HARMON:  I agree, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let it be offloaded.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  You may proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Because that is the document that the

23     witness testified about.

24        Q.   So, General, now we have in front of us a document dated the 3rd

25     of May, 1995.  I'm going to ask you the same question as a couple of

Page 13512

 1     minutes ago.  What does this date trigger memory of, what associations

 2     you have with respect to this date and the days around it?

 3        A.   A Croatian offensive in the area of Western Slavonia was under

 4     way in those days.

 5        Q.   Let's take a look at D164 and have it brought on the screen.

 6     What was the name of that operation, General?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which operation?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said the Croatian

 9     offensive, that would be page 58, line 25.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The code-name is Flash or Blesak

11     and it's still known under that sobriquet.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You're going to see the map that you already saw and on which you

14     indicated certain things for our benefit.  When it does appear, I would

15     like to ask you to draw two things on that map.  But let us wait for a

16     second for it to appear.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could zoom in on the map,

18     please.

19        Q.   And with the usher's help, Witness, I'm going to ask you to

20     indicate two things on this map.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you, usher, would please assist

22     the General, to assist General Novakovic, although I see that the General

23     has become very skilful.

24        Q.   Could you please indicate on this map the areas where you were

25     and where Operation Pauk on the 3rd of May, 1995, while it unfolded.

Page 13513

 1        A.   On the spot, sir, indicated by 1.

 2        Q.   And please indicate where the Croatian army aggression labelled

 3     Flash was carried out in that period.

 4        A.   That would be the area marked by the number 2.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will move to tender this map into

 6     evidence before it disappears.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The map shall be given -- the

10     marked portion of the map shall be given Exhibit D00444.  Thank you, Your

11     Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

13             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, Operation Flash, this operation of the Croatian army and

16     the developments of that time in the territory of the Republic of Serbian

17     Krajina, did they have any implications on the security of the FRY and

18     was there any need to inform Chief of General Staff of the VJ of such

19     events?

20        A.   Of course, such an operation of -- at such large scale in the

21     vicinity would be something that not only the Chief of Staff of the VJ

22     but the Chief of Staff of the Hungarian army would have to be informed

23     about.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take a look at a document which has been XN32,

25     the designation given by the OTP to that document.

Page 13514

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  XN320 or 320.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is not a document which is on

 3     the --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon -- Mr. Lukic, when was XN320 tendered?

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That document, XN320, has not been

 6     tendered.  The OTP --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, but when did the OTP put it on the screen?  I

 8     don't have it.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] They did not upload it.  I referred

10     to it because the OTP introduced that document into the e-court.  That

11     document has not been shown to the Bench so far.

12             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, this -- I just wanted to confirm, this

13     document was not shown to the witness and I don't know what its

14     relationship is to the cross-examination.  And perhaps Mr. Lukic would be

15     in a position to inform us how this relates to the cross-examination of

16     the witness.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like then to ask

18     Mr. Novakovic to step out of the courtroom for me to be able to do so.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, will you please give us a bit of a

20     moment.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As you can see, by its form it is the

24     same type of document as P2527 but the date is the 1st of July, 1995,

25     whereby Pauk command delivers this document exclusively to

Page 13515

 1     Mr. Jovica Stanisic.  It's not been addressed to the General Staff of the

 2     VJ, and I would like to refute Mr. Harmon's thesis using this document in

 3     respect of the periods of reporting and delivery of reports, whereby

 4     Mr. Harmon tried to prove to Mr. Novakovic that he did deliver regular

 5     reports to Mr. Stanisic -- sorry, Mr. Perisic, and this does follow from

 6     cross-examination directly.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harmon.

 8             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, I'm not sure that this refutes the

 9     testimony, but I'll leave it to Mr. Lukic to determine.  The witness said

10     he delivered reports, regular combat reports, once a week to

11     General Perisic.  That was his evidence as I recall it, so I'm not sure

12     this refutes that proposition.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that was the evidence.  But the proposition

14     put to him was that he made regular reports.

15             MR. HARMON:  No, I agree, Your Honour.  I asked him if he made --

16     how often he made regular combat report submissions to General Perisic

17     and my recollection is he said once a week.  This is a regular combat

18     report.  It doesn't mean that -- I don't want to say more.  It's up to --

19     let's proceed, Your Honour.  I have no objection.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             Call the witness, please.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Please take a look at this document, General, please, and then

Page 13516

 1     I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.  Do you recognise your

 2     signature here?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   This purports to be, as it's entitled, regular combat report by

 5     Pauk command dated the 1st of July, 1995, and in this case it is

 6     addressed to the attention of Mr. J. Stanisic.  When Mr. Harmon asked you

 7     in his cross-examination about the regularity of delivering those combat

 8     reports to General Perisic, you said that as far as you could remember

 9     you provided one such report once a week or from time to time.  My

10     question in this period why didn't you or did you continue to deliver

11     reports to the General Staff of the VJ, namely, General Perisic, during

12     that period?

13        A.   As far as my memory serves me, Mr. Lukic, throughout the duration

14     of this operation we delivered reports to most of the people, as

15     specified earlier when those reports were called up.  I don't see this as

16     a special case.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I'm going to ask you --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I propose that we tender this

19     document into evidence, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

21     given an exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this shall be admitted as

23     Exhibit D00445.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 13517

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Harmon, towards the end of his cross-examination, asked you a

 3     number of questions about Mr. Ulemek, Mr. Medic, and asked you about

 4     their participation in Operation Pauk.  You remember he showed you some

 5     footage dated 6th of April, 1995, in that area.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please bring on the screen

 7     P2783.  I'm not sure whether this document is still under seal.  The seal

 8     may have been removed, but if not then we'll have to move into private

 9     session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Registrar, are you able to guide us?

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13     [Private session]      [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   These are excerpts from General Mladic's diary.  The first one

18     that was disclosed to us about one and a half years ago and which the OTP

19     introduced into their evidence towards the end of their case.  Could we

20     please turn to B/C/S page 10 and English page 10, please.

21             MR. HARMON:  Excuse me.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

23             MR. HARMON:  Could Mr. Lukic inform me whether this is a

24     reflection of a meeting that Mr. -- General Novakovic attended.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  I do not see that it has been

Page 13518

 1     stated that General Novakovic attended that meeting.  I'd like to ask

 2     General Novakovic about something else in relation with the relationship

 3     Ulemek and Medic had.  I cannot see from this entry whether

 4     General Novakovic attended that meeting at all.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Well, perhaps -- Your Honour, perhaps a question

 6     could be put to the General before he's shown a document.  If the

 7     question is:  What is the relationship between Ulemek and somebody else,

 8     if he knows?  That's a question that can be put to him without the use of

 9     a document.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not want to dwell on these

11     issues.  I would like to ask a specific question which follows from the

12     allegations in this diary which relate to Mr. Novakovic in the period

13     while Ulemek was present in the territory, as shown to the General by

14     Mr. Harmon.  I'm going to discuss an entry in this diary which has direct

15     relationship with Mr. Harmon's questions put to the General.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know, there is a practice that has taken place

17     in this Tribunal which makes life very difficult.  According to my

18     understanding, before a document is shown to a witness you've got to lay

19     a foundation for that document.  In this Tribunal documents are just put

20     on and then say:  Okay, fine, I'm going to ask a question.  And by the

21     time the question is asked, the very purpose of not showing the document

22     before the foundation is laid is undermined and it becomes water under

23     the bridge because now the witness has seen the document anyway.  And

24     this exchange that you have now had with Mr. Harmon confuses me.

25             First of all, Mr. Harmon did not object to anything.  He just

Page 13519

 1     asked:  Can I be told whether the witness attended this meeting.  Now,

 2     that's not an objection.  That's not any reason why a question should not

 3     be put.  You gave an explanation of why you want to put the document to

 4     the witness.  I still don't understand why, you know.  And it would be

 5     helpful indeed, as Mr. Harmon suggests, if questions can be put to the

 6     witness.  Let's hear what they are, let's hear what the relevance is, and

 7     if in the course of asking questions you either want to jog the memory of

 8     the witness or you want to develop the point on your questions, then you

 9     can show him the paper.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When he asked General Novakovic the

11     question and asked about his departure to Belgrade with Ulemek --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask those questions to the witness, deal with

13     those questions, develop a foundation for showing the witness the

14     document, Mr. Lukic.  You see, you're explaining to us.  We will follow

15     you if you deal with the questions that were asked in cross-examination

16     and you put them to the witness.  We will understand what you are doing.

17     And if you want to show him a document, either in confirmation or in --

18     refuting what you are dealing with, then we will understand why the

19     document is coming on the screen.  But when you don't show him the paper

20     before you've asked the questions -- am I being difficult?

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I'll tell you what you people make difficult

23     for me.  I don't know how to rule in what you're talking about.  As I

24     say, there is no objection; there is just a question.  And now the

25     following statements that Mr. Harmon made after asking about whether the

Page 13520

 1     witness attended this meeting suggest an objection.  He hasn't said so

 2     expressly, but he shows dissatisfaction with you showing the witness this

 3     document, you know, before you have told us why you want to show him a

 4     document and before the Court can determine whether in fact you are

 5     entitled to show him the document or not, depending on the relevance of

 6     your questions.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

 8        Q.   General, I've just received instructions and in line with these

 9     instructions I'm about to ask you the following question.  In the spring

10     of 1995 what kind of relationship was there in place between

11     Jovica Stanisic and you as the commander of Pauk?

12        A.   I believe that he was not fully satisfied that I was in the

13     position I was in.

14        Q.   According to what you know, why did Mr. Stanisic dislike the fact

15     that you were in that position?

16        A.   I believe that the basic reason was that I tried to think with my

17     own head and take decisions based on what I hear from the people around

18     me.  And the gentleman who's been mentioned here, Mr. Ulemek, to my mind

19     was in a position for which he was not fit.  And I stated as much.

20        Q.   Please let us now look at this document.  On the first page we

21     see reference to a meeting that took place on the 30th of June, 1995, at

22     the General Staff of the VJ with President Milosevic.  And then in the

23     second sentence we see:

24             "I called FA," although I see on the English translation that

25     this -- these initials are already expanded, but let me ask you anyway,

Page 13521

 1     General.  Who did Mladic refer to when he -- with these initials, FA?

 2        A.   To Fikret Abdic.

 3             MR. HARMON:  Your Honours, so the record is clear, the question

 4     that I understood was who did Mladic refer to and Mladic is not obviously

 5     mentioned but President Milosevic is mentioned.  And so I think the

 6     record is inaccurate.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. -- did anybody refer to Mladic,

 8     Mr. Harmon?  I thought Mr. --

 9             MR. HARMON:  Yes, Your Honour, at line 23.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.  Who did

11     Mladic refer to when he -- you meant Milosevic?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I meant Mladic when he wrote the

13     initials FA because this is Mladic's handwriting, and I don't believe

14     that Milosevic actually uttered "FA."  So I said "Mladic" because this is

15     Mladic's diary.  Sorry for the confusion.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now we are with you, Mr. Lukic.  Thank you so

17     much.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see pages 13 in both

19     B/C/S and English.

20        Q.   It says here:

21             "JS:  My men should be given maximum consideration when an

22     operation is planned.

23             "I don't trust Mile Novakovic, at least in terms of

24     expertise ..."

25             General, at that time did you have information to this effect

Page 13522

 1     that Jovica Stanisic doesn't trust you as commander or didn't trust your

 2     activities in the Pauk operation with regard to Ulemek?

 3        A.   I felt that their relations weren't very close.  That's what I

 4     knew.  That Mr. Stanisic doubts my expertise, well that is something I

 5     didn't know.

 6        Q.   General, you won't believe me, but I put it to you anyway:  I'm

 7     done with my examination.  Thank you once more.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 9             Mr. -- oh, okay.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Novakovic, I also put it to you that you'll be

12     surprised that I'm telling you that we are done with your testimony.  We

13     are so grateful you came here and testified before this Tribunal.  You

14     have been here for a long time and we thank you for your co-operation

15     with the Tribunal.  You are now excused.  You may stand down and travel

16     well back home.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow, Mr. President, I

18     would like to thank you personally and the Trial Chamber for a correct

19     and humane attitude, and that is the memory I carry home with me.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I beg your pardon, Mr. Lukic.

Page 13523

 1             May the Chamber please move into open session.

 2             Sorry, we should have excused the witness in open session.

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have the next witness ready

 8     to appear in court on Monday and testify in accordance with the schedule.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then can we just deal with a minor housekeeping

10     matter.  Mr. Lukic, are you able to give an estimation of how much longer

11     the Defence case is going to be?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know that's something of interest

13     to everybody, including myself.  I would like to say immediately that it

14     is the Defence's wish to finish as soon as possible.  I cannot be very

15     precise, but what I can say is that we are about to shorten our list of

16     witnesses.  And after the testimony of Mr. Novakovic, we will again

17     eliminate some witnesses.  I cannot be more precise than that because

18     there are now some technical matters that must be resolved with regards

19     to some important witnesses.  I believe that we will know within two or

20     three weeks, for which period we already have a list of witnesses.  And

21     then I will be in a position to be more precise as to the intended end of

22     the Defence case.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Let me put my question slightly differently

24     to you.  From a planning point of view, the Chamber would wish to have in

25     its hands at least closing briefs before we go for the winter recess.

Page 13524

 1     Can you promise that we will -- we can achieve that?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot, as much as I would like to.

 3     It is my desire to reach that goal, though.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we -- can the Chamber urge the parties,

 5     including the Prosecution, that we work towards that goal?

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will certainly honour your request

 7     and do whatever is in my power to meet that -- to reach that objective.

 8     But although I don't want to go into great lengths, but I would like to

 9     illustrate some of the problems the Defence is up against so this fits

10     into this topic that you have just broached.

11             We are still working on some matters so we don't have additional

12     matters that we don't have -- don't yet have a complete picture about.

13     But in order for me to be more specific, we would have to go into private

14     session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13525











11 Pages 13525-13526 redacted. Private session.















Page 13527

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             We stand adjourned to Monday morning, 9.00, Courtroom II.  Court

 7     adjourned.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

10                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.