Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 993


2 Wednesday, 30 August 2006

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good afternoon to you. Could you

7 kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 When we go through the preliminaries, if you could kindly find

12 out how long Mr. Meek has been cross-examining the witness.

13 Yes, usual advisory to the accused. Any problems with

14 interpretation, please draw our attention straight away.

15 I see that there's no major change -- there are no major changes.

16 The Prosecution is in full house.

17 Any preliminaries? None. Only thing is, Mr. McCloskey, in

18 relation to the issues following the separation of Tolimir and Trbic, there

19 was one objection raised by the Defence that hasn't been addressed as yet.

20 Strictly speaking, you had until today to do that. Maybe -- I think in

21 order to save time I will get the -- one of my staff to -- to contact you.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One of our staff will contact you during the first

24 break, okay. And if there is a need for a short extension, small

25 extension, we'll probably grant it.

Page 994

1 So any preliminaries? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We hope not to have any problem with our next

3 witness, but we've -- there may be a problem. I hate to offer problems

4 that don't yet exist. The witness wants to testify publicly and we noticed

5 that he had protective measures last time, so the appeals court is, we

6 think, about ready to sign off on that but we didn't --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know, I'm fully aware of that.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was about to raise the matter yesterday, but I

10 stopped short of that in anticipation of this morning, I would come and

11 find the decision on my -- which hasn't been the case. But it's

12 anticipated any moment, but should it not arrive by the time the witness is

13 to start his evidence, then I think there is another way out, there's

14 another way we can handle it. So we'll wait, I think, because I'm

15 confident we'll have the Appeals Chamber's decision.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And given the estimates of the next -- well, both

17 the witnesses, the Defence and myself have spoken, it would be best for

18 everyone if we just planned Mr. Ruez to be next week, though of course you

19 make that decision. I mentioned that yesterday and we weren't sure exactly

20 if you had made a decision on that or not.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You mentioned it yesterday and we decided

22 independently irrespective of that. We just decided yesterday not to lose

23 the three-quarters of an hour that we had available. So we'll decide the

24 rest during the first break and we will let you know.

25 Any further matters? None.

Page 995

1 Usher, if you could kindly usher in the witness, please.

2 Right, Mr. Meek, you still have the floor. Okay.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Oric.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek is going to continue with his cross-

7 examination, and then he will be followed by other Defence counsel for

8 other accused.

9 Mr. Meek, he is all yours.

10 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

11 afternoon.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Oric, how are you, sir?

16 A. Good afternoon. I'm fine. Thank you for asking.

17 Q. A couple of questions, sir. Yesterday at page 27 of the

18 transcript, line 14 -- 13 and 14 when you were speaking about being in the

19 -- arriving -- or being at the gymnasium at the school, you testified that

20 you were talking to your cousin and that you heard somebody say: There's

21 Mladic. Do you recall that testimony, Mr. Oric?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. To clarify you stated: "I lifted my head and we saw him in the

24 corridor at the entrance to the sports hall." My question, Mr. Oric, is:

25 Did you actually see him with your own eyes or were you told that he was

Page 996

1 standing at the entrance to the sports hall?

2 A. Yes, I saw him personally.

3 Q. Thank you. Now -- and you've already testified as to your

4 military duties throughout your lifetime, and I know we're familiar with

5 that. I want to ask a few questions about Ramir Becirovic?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Becirovic.

7 MR. MEEK: Becirovic.

8 Q. Mr. Oric, you know who I'm speaking of; correct?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Who was, to your knowledge, his commander?

11 A. Nobody.

12 Q. And it's my understanding then that he was the supreme commander

13 in Srebrenica at the time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Now yesterday you testified at page 44 between line 4 and

16 5 when you were speaking about your escape, you mentioned a gentleman by

17 the name of Hurem Suljic. Do you recall that testimony?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did Hurem go with you all the way to the free zone?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. And had you known him prior to that date?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And how many days, approximately, did it take you and Hurem to

24 arrive at the free zone?

25 A. On the seventh day, we arrived to the free territory from the

Page 997

1 point of the place of the execution, together on the eleventh day, as of

2 the day Srebrenica fell.

3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Oric, if Hurem Suljic is related to Osman Suljic

4 from Srebrenica?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know or have you ever heard of Osman Suljic?

7 A. I heard of him, but I never met him.

8 Q. Okay. And could you tell the Chamber what position he held in

9 1995 in Srebrenica or Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know that he was the president of the Srebrenica Executive

12 Council in 1995, sir?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. Finally, Mr. Oric, and I know that you've given many statements

15 to different agencies and different investigators over these last 11 years.

16 I want to know whether you recall giving one -- an interview, excuse me, on

17 or about the 11th day of October, 1998, in your own home?

18 A. I don't recall the date.

19 Q. Okay. But you recall giving an interview where Mr. McCloskey,

20 the Prosecutor over here sitting in the middle, an investigator by the name

21 of Jan Kruszewski, and you had an interpreter named Kanita Halilovic and

22 they came to your home at approximately 3.00 in the afternoon? Do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Now, I'm looking at a report, but you've never seen it so I'm not

Page 998

1 going to show it to you, that's been drafted by the investigator John or

2 Jan Kruszewski. And during that interview, Mr. Oric -- the ERN number on

3 that is 00676049 for the Trial Chamber. Thank you.

4 Do you recall discussing that day with Mr. McCloskey, with Jan

5 Kruszewski, the investigator, that you woke up at the railroad tracks

6 behind you, about 20 metres from you was an embankment of the railroad,

7 that you told them that?

8 A. Yes. As I stood up the railway tracks were behind me. I can

9 remember that. The tracks were behind me.

10 Q. And you also --

11 A. The embankment and the railway tracks were behind my back.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you recall telling them on that day that that the

13 distance from the school to the site and the meadow where the killings took

14 place was five to six minutes?

15 A. I may have said it, but that was an estimate. I didn't have a

16 watch.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you also recall telling them that you had been

18 told about the location of the execution site only after you reached the

19 free territory and not before?

20 A. Yes. When I arrived to the free territory, I described it and

21 then they told me it was near Gornji Grbavica. I didn't know the exact

22 name of the village and then it was established, the execution site.

23 Q. And who is "they" that told you it was near Gornji Grbavica?

24 A. In the command, in Sapna, on the free territory. When I was

25 giving my statement, this is when they told me that this was on that

Page 999

1 particular site.

2 Q. And, Mr. Oric, can you tell me approximately when they told you

3 the location of this execution site. Was it the first day of your arrival?

4 The second day? The first week, if you know?

5 A. On the next day when I recovered. It was then that I gave my

6 statement, and then they told me that according to the map this could be

7 the location. They concluded this from my description of the terrain.

8 Q. Now, in your nine days or so with Hurem Suljic, did you discuss

9 your family and those sort of things while you were travelling to the free

10 zone? And if so, sir, did he ever mention to you that he was related to

11 Osman Suljic in any fashion?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you skip this and go to the next

13 question. I think he's answered it already, that he was not aware of that,

14 Mr. Meek.

15 MR. MEEK:

16 Q. So then I understand, Mr. Oric, that approximately 10 to 11 days

17 after the killings took place, the command in the free zone informed you of

18 the location of the site where it occurred. Is that correct?

19 A. When I gave the statement in the free territory, when I

20 explained, they said that it could be near Gornji Grbavica. I didn't know

21 the terrain, but I described where I went and they said that this location

22 could be near Gornji Grbavica, near a hamlet. They mentioned the name. I

23 am not familiar with this terrain, but they were because the refugees came

24 from these -- from this area, from Krizevici and other villages in the

25 area. So they said the -- they gave an estimate of the location.

Page 1000

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Oric. One other question: Did it -- did you in

2 1999 go to this -- this location with an investigator from the Office of

3 the Prosecutor by the name of Ruez?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Okay. You described earlier -- this will be my last series of

6 questions or question. Can you describe for me the other types of arms

7 that were in the column that was moving from Susnjari to Tuzla?

8 A. There were hunting rifles, pistols, so private hunting rifles and

9 pistols, and automatic weapons, semi-automatic weapons, and Kalashnikovs.

10 Q. In your group, let me ask, how many other grenades were there

11 beside the two that you told us about that you had in your position, Mr.

12 Oric?

13 A. In my group no one had a grenade on them. I had two grenades on

14 me, and when we were ambushed in Kamenica or when I was turning around and

15 to crawling, these hand-grenades fell off me. Fortunately, they did not go

16 off. Nobody had anything on them. They didn't have any grenades on them.

17 Q. Minor point of clarification. When you state "hunting rifles,"

18 do you mean the kind of rifles that one would use to hunt deer or game, big

19 game?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also within -- grouped within that category of hunting rifles,

22 would you also include shotguns?

23 A. Yes, shotguns.

24 MR. MEEK: Mr. Oric, I thank you very much. I have no further

25 questions at this time.

Page 1001

1 Your Honour, one thing, Mr. President, I was handed an English

2 translation of the article. I don't believe -- I looked at it briefly

3 before Your Honours came in. I don't think I'll have any questions on it,

4 but I just want you to know I'm going to read it when they cross-examine.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact I was coming to that. I was going to let

7 you finish first. Has the article or the newspaper interview that Madam

8 Faveau referred to yesterday -- I take it now from Mr. Meek that it has

9 been available?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we had one of your attorneys who speaks the

11 language do a quick translation and we've provided that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

13 So, Mr. Zivanovic, would you like to put any further questions?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So Defence for Mr. Nikolic. Who is going to cross-

16 examine the witness? Madam Nikolic.

17 Madam Nikolic is defending Drago Nikolic in this case.

18 Go ahead.

19 She speaks your own language, so please between question and

20 answer allow a short interval of time, a short pause. Thank you.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Oric.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Before I put questions to you arising from your testimony

Page 1002

1 yesterday, I would like to clarify something that occurred in the

2 transcript on the 28th of August. On page 56 of the transcript of 28

3 August you testified that you had recognised a soldier when you were

4 arrested near Konjevic Polje, and you said that he was your neighbour from

5 Studenic and that his name was Gligic or Simic. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You testified about this man earlier on in the Blagojevic case,

8 didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that your neighbour who was born in Studenic near Potocari,

11 either in 1968 or 1969?

12 A. As far as I know him, yes, I had known him from childhood, and he

13 did reside there.

14 Q. He went to school with your sister, didn't he?

15 A. Yes, in Potocari.

16 Q. When you testified in Blagojevic case on page 1340, the last

17 sentence there -- Gligic, I forgot his first name.

18 A. I know that I mentioned his last name. His last name is either

19 Gligic or Simic and I still don't know his name. I asked my sister, but

20 she didn't remember either.

21 Q. On page 1340 in the Blagojevic trial, you stated clearly that his

22 family name was Gligic. Can we confirm that this man's last name was

23 Gligic, if I understood you correctly?

24 A. Gligic or Simic.

25 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you a few questions about the

Page 1003

1 time when you arrived in the territory of Zvornik municipality. You passed

2 through Zvornik and Karakaj. You arrived in the villages of Grbavci and

3 Orahovac and if I'm not mistaken, that was on the 13th of July [as

4 interpreted], 1995, in the afternoon. That's what you said yesterday on

5 page 24 of yesterday's transcript.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm going to ask you several questions about the time that you

8 spent in the sports hall during that afternoon. First of all, let me first

9 ask you this: Can you clarify certain facts about Mladic whom you spotted

10 in the sports hall.

11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, there has

12 been a mistake in the interpretation, transcript, on page 11, line 6 it

13 says the 13th of July and I believe I mentioned the 14th of July, 1995.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] thank you.

15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You confirmed to my colleague Meek that you saw Mladic with your

17 own two eyes, that he was standing on the doorstep of the sports hall. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution

21 between the 10th and 12th of August, 1995, you described this event with

22 much greater detail. I suppose this is because the statement was given

23 only a month after the event; is that correct?

24 A. [No interpretation].

25 Q. Let me read that statement to jog your memory about what you

Page 1004

1 said.

2 "I saw Mladic several times on TV. He did not introduce himself

3 to us. He was surrounded by big body-guards, and at least two of them

4 carried Thompson guns. There were altogether 14 people, including Mladic,

5 his body-guards, and guards who guarded us. Mladic wore a camouflage

6 uniform and his sleeves were rolled up. Mladic is about 173 centimetres

7 tall. He is fat, and he had greying-brown hair."

8 Is that what you stated?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you saw Mladic in the sports hall, he did not address your

11 group, did he?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But he did talk to a person that you thought was commander and

14 you described him yesterday as a tall person in black uniform with

15 sunglasses, and this is on page 27 of yesterday's transcript. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let me go back to one part of your testimony about the events in

19 the sports hall on page 24 of yesterday's transcript. You mentioned that

20 in the sports hall there had been several boys who distributed water to the

21 people there. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. These boys brought water to you from time to time and the water

24 would go around until the buckets got empty?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1005

1 Q. And then if I understood you well, they would leave the sports

2 hall, they would fill up the buckets again, and they would return to

3 continue distributing water in the sports hall. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There was not enough water for all the prisoners, and after some

6 time the conditions in the sports hall were aggravated and people started

7 fainting?

8 A. The far end of the sports hall never got any water and they were

9 the ones who suffered the most and they were the ones who fainted.

10 Q. Throughout that period while you were sitting in the sports hall,

11 there was also the event involving a man who told the others that they

12 shouldn't fret, and they -- and that they should resist.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The same commander spoke to your group and asked you whether

15 anybody else in the group shared that man's opinion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was the same man, the commander, that you described as

18 being tall, wearing a black uniform, having dark hair and dark sunglasses?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Subsequently that same commander returned to the sports hall and

21 that's when the first people were being taken out of the sports hall?

22 A. Yes. He told us that we would be taken to the Batkovici camp,

23 and that's why we were required to leave the sports hall.

24 Q. What we have just discussed happened during the period from the

25 moment you arrived in the sports hall up to the moment sometime in the

Page 1006

1 afternoon when the first prisoners were taken out of the sports hall and

2 loaded on to the vans. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If I have understood you well, in the sports hall under the

5 conditions as they were, you spent some time, some few hours, and you were

6 waiting for the moment when the first prisoners were taken out of the

7 sports hall.

8 A. I don't know how long this lasted. I don't know how many hours.

9 I didn't have a watch.

10 Q. Let me just put you one other question. Throughout that period

11 while you were in the sports hall, do you remember that the guards

12 occasionally fired shots in order to calm people down, those people who

13 were in the sports hall? Did they fire shots within the sports hall?

14 A. They fired shots only when that man wouldn't go out. They fired

15 shots in the air, in the sports hall, and they threatened that they would

16 shoot at us if that person refused to leave the sports hall.

17 Q. You are a soldier, and I suppose you know. Can you tell us: Was

18 it very noisy in the sports hall when this shooting started? The area was

19 closed.

20 A. The area wasn't closed. The windows were open. There were

21 windows in the upper part of the walls, so we had windows on three sides.

22 If the room had been closed, that would have -- wouldn't have been normal.

23 Still, it was very noisy. The noise was very strong.

24 Q. Did you have any problems with your ears because of that?

25 A. Well, it was not a grenade.

Page 1007

1 Q. I understand. Thank you. At one point yesterday during your

2 testimony you mentioned that you had fallen asleep or that you had fainted?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in

5 1995, the same one that I had just mentioned, you said that at the moment

6 when you either fell asleep or lost consciousness, that that must have been

7 around 2100 hours?

8 A. No, I never said that.

9 Q. Let me read that part of the statement to you. It is on page 11,

10 in the last sentence. I'd like to jog your memory, and I would like to

11 avoid a situation where I would have to show the statement to you. You

12 said as follows:"I felt dizzy, and after that I either fell asleep or

13 fainted. It may have been around 2100 hours at that point. When I came

14 to, it was dark and it was raining," and I don't want to go on reading your

15 statement back to you. This is part of your statement.

16 A. This is probably a mistake, just like a mistake was done in the

17 transcript when you said "14th" and what entered the transcript was the

18 "13th." I know that that was during the day and not the time mentioned by

19 you.

20 Q. Let me show you your statement. This might help us to clarify

21 this.

22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we have document 3D7 on e-

23 court. This is Mr. Oric's statement in both languages.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]...

25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] 3D7.

Page 1008

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, but which statement?

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The statement was given to the

3 Office of the Prosecutor on the 10th, 11th, and 12th of August, 1995. This

4 statement was given to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on

5 those dates. I have hard copies if there are problems with the e-court.

6 Can we also have it in the English for the Trial Chamber, and I would also

7 like the witness to be able to see the English version.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it on e-court. I mean, we have to

9 find it.

10 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, just to assist my colleague in

12 cross-examination, it seems that in the statement of this witness in B/C/S

13 says the date of the interview is 10th, 11th, and 12th of August, 1996,

14 while in English version it says "1995," so just to have this in mind.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you for that. It's definitely as you

16 say. The first page in English with ERN 00336981 certainly does not tally

17 with the first page in B/C/S. Yeah.

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the same

19 statement.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]...

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The only thing that might have

22 happened when the B/C/S version done the date was altered for some reason.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That could have -- may well have happened, but the

24 thing is I wouldn't dare say which one is the correct, whether it's the

25 B/C/S one or the English one, because this is August, so -- yes.

Page 1009

1 MR. THAYER: [Microphone not activated].

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 MR. THAYER: The date is August of 1995, there's no doubt, and

4 it's simply a typo on the B/C/S translation, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 So you know now at least what the Prosecution position is, Ms.

7 Nikolic.

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Can we please look at the page 11. Can we have that page on the

10 screen, please. Can the witness be shown that page of his statement, page

11 11, the last paragraph, please. Thank you.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Oric, before you on the screen there is a

13 B/C/S version of your original statement that you gave to the investigators

14 of this Tribunal between the 10th and 12th of August, 1995. You stated

15 here what I just read out to you. Could you please read that statement

16 again and tell me whether this is what you stated at the time.

17 A. Shall I now read it aloud?

18 "I was dizzy. After that either I fell asleep or fainted. It

19 may have been around 2100 hours." This is a mistake.

20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the English version of

21 this statement on the screen, please? First page of the statement, please,

22 showing the information on the witness. Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Oric, your interview lasted three days with

24 the investigators; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1010

1 Q. You spent three whole days talking about various details of the

2 events that took place on the relevant days. People who were present

3 during the interview were the investigator and the interpreter. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You spoke under no pressure or duress and you based your

7 testimony on recollection?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But --

10 A. I just read out my statement -- the statements that I had given

11 long before that.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. In 1995 -- 1996.

14 Q. Let's clarify. This is your statement given in 1995. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you signed it?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And you were interviewed by the investigators for three days.

20 Their names are on the cover page of this statement.

21 A. No. The interview lasted just one day.

22 Q. Just one day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This means that your statement is actually not your statement,

25 that what we have before us is not your statement at all?

Page 1011

1 A. Yes, it is my statement.

2 Q. Based on your recollection, on what you could remember at that

3 moment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I believe that you spoke the truth at the

6 time?

7 A. Yes, but there may have been some errors in the transcript.


9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Let's go

10 back to one other thing. Can we have document 2094. This is a Prosecution

11 exhibit that was used yesterday by the Prosecution during the direct, and

12 this is the sketch of the area around the school in Bratunac.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar is pointing out to me that there

15 are two versions of it. One is the so-called clean version that was

16 provided by the Prosecution the first place; the second is the one on which

17 he put some markings. Which one?

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The so-called clean version,

19 please, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's the clean version, please, and it is 2094.

21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Can we zoom

22 in just a little bit more, please, can we enlarge the image a bit more,

23 please?

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Oric, my learned colleague asked you about

25 some facts relative to the sketch that you drafted in July 1995 -- I

Page 1012

1 apologise, in August 1995 when you spoke to the Office of the Prosecutor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please look at the drawing in front of you, and if you

4 look at the third bus from the top, from the school, on the right-hand side

5 there is an arrow and it says "ME," which means "I" or "me" in the Serbian.

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was it who wrote this down? Who put that word on to the

9 sketch?

10 A. MO, but it's not very legible.

11 Q. I believe that this is ME.

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Zoom in, please. Yes. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that, but this is

14 MO, but this was done in a haste. I wrote that "MO."

15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What's the meaning of this MO?

17 A. This is the place where I was supposed to be killed because of

18 the patch of the Territorial Defence that he had found by the bus. This is

19 where he was supposed to shoot me.

20 Q. You're saying that this word does not mean "I" or "me" in

21 English?

22 A. I can't speak English, I don't know. I know that this is where I

23 was sitting and this is where he was supposed to kill me, in front of the

24 bus, at that place. This is where I was sitting, and here by the bus he

25 was supposed to kill me.

Page 1013

1 Q. In other words, these letters, be they ME or MO, were put down by

2 you? You are the one who wrote this? And who was it who wrote down

3 "private house" on the left-hand side where it says "house, house, house,

4 house," four times in Serbian?

5 A. I don't know who it was in Tuzla who wrote these words down, who

6 among the investigators.

7 Q. In other words, the markings were made by the investigators?

8 A. Yes, in Tuzla during the interview.

9 Q. In other words, the investigator was the one who pointed to the

10 place where you were supposed to be killed?

11 A. No, it was the other way around. I showed him and he translated

12 into English.

13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

14 further questions?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Nikolic.

16 Mr. Lazarevic, who is -- who will be cross-examining the witness?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Mr. Stojanovic will cross-examine the witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic.

19 Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Oric, is defending Mr. Borovcanin.

20 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 1014

1 Q. [Interpretation] We shall try to clarify some issues and I will

2 try to show you some documents and I will ask for your assistance in

3 explaining some things to us. You've told us that you were born in the

4 village of Lehovici, Srebrenica municipality?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This is where you lived, and you've also told us that,

7 "Srebrenica is a small place, we knew each other, all of us there." What

8 was the ethnic structure of the population on the eve of the war in 1992?

9 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know what the ethnic composition was.

10 A majority were Muslims.

11 Q. Can you help us and tell us whether there were any Serbs there

12 and what was their percentage?

13 A. There were Serbs, but I don't know what their percentage was. I

14 was never interested in that.

15 Q. During your professional career before the war you spent some

16 time working in Belgrade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When was that, what year?

19 A. I worked there from 1985, I worked in Banat, I worked in the

20 sugar plant, I worked in Pancevo in an anti-corrosion plant. I worked for

21 different companies until I joined the Yugoslav army.

22 Q. Does that mean that you were still under age when you were

23 working in Serbia?

24 A. Yeah, one could put it that way, and that was in Banat.

25 Q. And during your stay in Serbia, did you have any problems with

Page 1015

1 other ethnic groups, ethnic-related problems?

2 A. No.

3 Q. As far as I understand, when the war broke out in Croatia you

4 became involved in the conflict between the Croatian forces and the then-

5 JNA?

6 A. That was in Capljina, and it lasted a few days while I was a

7 member of the Croatian MUP.

8 Q. Help us, please, and tell us this: You said that you were a

9 member of the Croatian MUP. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where is Capljina, in which state?

12 A. It is in Herzegovina.

13 Q. Which state, please?

14 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 Q. How come that you as a member of the Croatian MUP found yourself

16 in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. We were sent there. We had to go there to protect the houses

18 from looting. I had not even known where Capljina was, and when I arrived

19 there it took me only 10 to 15 days to realise where I was. And that's

20 when I left. I abandoned Capljina. I left the post and Capljina.

21 Q. Help us, please, and tell us when was that?

22 A. I don't know the date, but this must have been sometime in March.

23 I arrived there in February, and in March I left for Zagreb.

24 Q. Would it be fair to say that in February or March 1992 you were

25 in Capljina?

Page 1016

1 A. It would be better to say that at the beginning of March I left

2 for Zagreb. I tried to go to Sarajevo; I couldn't. And then I decided to

3 go to Zagreb instead.

4 Q. Had the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina in February 1992?

5 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I was in Zagreb. I did not

6 have enough information as to what was going on. That's why I wanted to go

7 to Tuzla and then to Srebrenica, to see what the situation was there.

8 Q. Let's take things one at a time. We are talking about February

9 or beginning of March 1992. I understand that the Croatian MUP sent you to

10 Capljina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your task was to protect the property of the citizens of

13 Capljina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was there already war going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the

16 time?

17 A. No, but the population had moved out of Capljina and they went to

18 Baska Voda and Markaska.

19 Q. At the time were there JNA units in Capljina?

20 A. Yes, I believe so. They were in the barracks there.

21 Q. Did you have any conflicts with the JNA?

22 A. No, no we didn't.

23 Q. At the beginning of March, you left and you went to Zagreb. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes -- actually, I went to Kutina, to my uncle's place.

Page 1017

1 Q. From that moment on, did you stop being a member of the Croatian

2 MUP?

3 A. Yes. I returned my uniform and my arms, and I went to my uncle's

4 place.

5 Q. I understand that you joined the MUP because of the pay, because

6 of the money that you were paid?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you get that money? How much were you paid?

9 A. No, I didn't. Because my uncle called me and asked me to leave

10 immediately and to come to his place.

11 Q. Are you saying that you did not get a penny for the time spent in

12 Capljina?

13 A. No.

14 Q. At one point you've told us that you had been trained by the MUP,

15 by the MUP of Croatia?

16 A. Yes, it was some sort of training in town. This was probably

17 just one part of the entire training -- at least that's what they told us.

18 Q. Was Nedzad Ibisevic, from the village of Dobrak, born in 1970

19 just like you, also with us undergoing that training, can you remember that

20 man?


22 A. No.

23 Q. That name doesn't ring a bell, does it?

24 A. No, it doesn't.

25 Q. Very well. Once you went to Zagreb you say that you joined the

Page 1018

1 army and that you were involved in Orasje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just briefly, how much time did you spend in Orasje?

4 A. I don't know how much time I spent with my uncle, but he told us

5 that we could go to Ores and we could go to Tuzla. I came to Orasje and I

6 couldn't go any further. We had to stop there to see if it was possible to

7 go on. We had no food and we were told that if we would join the army we

8 would be able to get something to eat. I think I spent full 20 days there,

9 and then we said that we could go to Slavonski Brod. Then we went to

10 Zagreb. There were some trucks. We asked them if they could give us a

11 lift, and we went to Tuzla.

12 Q. Who did you join in Orasje, which unit?

13 A. I think it was a Territorial Defence unit. There were more

14 people wearing civilian clothes. I think it was Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Is Orasje located in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you believe that you were a member of the HVO or the HV at the

18 time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Which army did you belong to?

21 A. These were Muslims who lived there. The Territorial Defence

22 which was just assembled in -- throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was

23 at the beginning of the conflict. There was no open conflict at the time.

24 These were units of Territorial Defence. We were not even given rifles.

25 This was simply to get some food, to be able to get some food.

Page 1019

1 Q. You have said -- you have just said: We went in the direction of

2 Brod and then on to Tuzla?

3 A. Yes, me and Elvir Mavlic [Realtime transcript read in error

4 "Momir"].

5 Q. You are referring to you when you say "we"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For the benefit of the transcript you mentioned Mavlic, Elvir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After you arrived in Tuzla you decided to go to Srebrenica?

10 A. No. We were demobilised in Tuzla in the Territorial Defence.

11 And I spent some time there in a hotel, I don't remember the name of the

12 hotel, near Banovici. And then I set off for Srebrenica from there.

13 Q. For the transcript, you were demobilised or mobilised in Tuzla?

14 A. I was mobilised.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the benefit of

16 the transcript, this is page 27, line 13.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for both this one and the previous one,

18 clearing up the name of the person that accompanied him because previously

19 in line 7 it showed Momir, which is completely misleading. Thank you.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. How long did you stay in Tuzla as member of the Army of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina before you set off to Srebrenica?

25 A. This was not -- I was not a member of the army but of Territorial

Page 1020

1 Defence. I don't remember how long. I left for Kalesija from there

2 because they told me that there was a way to go to Srebrenica. I spent

3 some 15 days there until a courier came, and then we proceeded to go to

4 Srebrenica. I think it was altogether until June, to Tuzla and Sapna

5 [Realtime transcript read in error "Sabno"]. I don't recall the exact

6 dates. It was sometime in July that I entered Srebrenica. I don't recall

7 the exact dates.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

9 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour, I think there's a transcription

10 error. I believe Sabno is incorrectly transcribed. I think he's referring

11 to another location.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, if you could address that. I

13 am not in a position to say if this is right or wrong. In the transcript

14 we have Tuzla and Sabno and it is being said that "Sabno" is not correct.

15 Mr. Oric has heard this now he can clarify it for us. Is it

16 Sabno or some other name?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is Sapna.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

19 You may move to your next question.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, when talking about Sapna, at the time of July/August 1992,

22 how big an area was controlled under the Serbian -- the VRS in the area

23 from Tuzla to the area held by the units that defended Srebrenica?

24 A. I do not understand your question. Could you please repeat it.

25 Q. I will try again. In order to reach Srebrenica at the time, how

Page 1021

1 far did you have to travel that was under the control of the VRS, in

2 kilometres?

3 A. I think 20 to 30 kilometres, in the direction that we took.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear this up. The total distance was what?

5 Total distance of the whole entire journey, you would have covered how many

6 kilometres?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The total distance, Your Honour, is

8 more than 150 kilometres. Your Honour, I was asked about the territory

9 under Serbian control.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So out of this 100 kilometres plus, 150 kilometres

11 plus, 20 of them or roughly 20 of them were under Serb control. Is that

12 correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Since I would tend not to agree with you, Mr. Oric, concerning

16 this point I would ask you again. Could you please state for us which

17 villages - I am talking about July and August 1992 - which villages at that

18 time in the Zvornik municipality were under the control of Territorial

19 Defence or the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. Zvornica, Kamenica, Lipja, Snagovo, all the way up to the asphalt

21 road. So 20 to 30 kilometres from Snagovo to Nezuk, this territory was

22 under the control of the Serb forces. From Konjevic Polje to Srebrenica,

23 there was an additional 15 kilometres up to Siljkovici and the other part

24 up to Crni Vrh. This is an estimate. I don't think there were more

25 kilometres up to Crni Vrh, from Nezuk to Snagovo.

Page 1022

1 Q. Do you think we can agree that at the time, Kalesija was under

2 the control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you agree that at the time, Snagovo was under the control of

5 Territorial Defence of the army -- or under the control of the Army of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes, but this is the army in Srebrenica, but the Zvornik free

8 territory.

9 Q. My colleagues suggested that the -- your answer was: Yes, but

10 not under the control of the army from Srebrenica but under the control of

11 the units from Zvornik of the ABiH?

12 A. Yes, the Territorial Defence.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me now show

14 you a document. I would like to ask the registrar to help us for e-court.

15 For your identification this is document that we received under the general

16 collection of the OTP with ERN mark 01007226 to 7227. We marked it as

17 document 4D7. I would like to ask you to have this article shown on the

18 screen, and while we're waiting for this, Mr. Oric, I will put a few

19 questions to you.

20 Q. This is a newspaper interview that you gave to Nedina Dalmacija

21 on the 10th of November, 1995, to Zeljko Garmaz, this journalist named

22 Zeljko Garmaz. For the record, Zeljko Garmaz. Did you, in fact, give

23 this interview?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see this article in the newspaper?

Page 1023

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you ever shown this newspaper article by the OTP in the

3 preparations for this testimony?

4 A. No.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask Madam Usher

6 to provide us with a hard copy of this article on the ELMO so that the

7 witness can have a look.

8 Your Honour, if you don't mind, we have underlined a part of the

9 text that we wish to put to the witness in order to save time.

10 Q. Mr. Oric, irrespective of the fact that you stated that you

11 didn't have an opportunity to read this article, I will put to you the

12 following questions. Will you accept what is stated in the article and

13 then you will be able to say if this interview -- if your memory has been

14 refreshed with regard to this interview.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of Your Honours

16 and the Prosecution, let me just say that we will be using in the English

17 version on the second page the second paragraph at the end of the page. So

18 I think we can proceed.

19 Q. You said that upon your arrival in Srebrenica you were asked by

20 your cousin, Nasir Oric, to go back to Tuzla to get some supplies. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This is what the text says. Then the text goes on to say --

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, for the

25 benefit of the identification I would now like to refer to page 2, to the

Page 1024

1 end of the second paragraph in the English version.

2 Q. In your version, Mr. Oric, you can see it underlined or

3 highlighted in yellow --

4 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber does not have the English version at

5 all. It shows the --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We have on our monitor the -- what the accused --

7 what the witness is being shown, but that's about it. And we need an extra

8 copy for ...

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me to proceed, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So on the second page at the end of the second paragraph it

15 reads: "We stayed in Tuzla for about a month, picked up 47 people, who

16 carried the medication, and headed back for Srebrenica. Nurif Rizvanovic,

17 with 500 armed men, came with us. Our men later liquidated Nurif because

18 he was presumed to be a Serbian spy."

19 Can you see this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this quote correct?

22 A. Yes, it is correct; however, he did not go with us. He went

23 separately from us, accompanied by his troops. He went -- he headed for

24 Srebrenica by his own will with his troops, whereas we had a duty, a

25 mission. And around Crni Vrh, his units suffered losses. So he headed for

Page 1025

1 Srebrenica separately from us. We were led by a courier, and we carried

2 medicines. He went of his own will, and he suffered -- or his men suffered

3 losses around Crni Vrh.

4 Q. Could you please say if you went together or the columns went one

5 behind the other?

6 A. No, we went before, during the night.

7 Q. So he set out for Srebrenica one day later. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Just by the way, how many times were you sent to Srebrenica

10 during that time?

11 A. This was the first time I went there, and I never went back.

12 Q. In 1993 or 1994, did you take that same road to Srebrenica?

13 A. No. Other people went.

14 Q. When you say "other people went," am I right in thinking that you

15 always take this one beaten track?

16 A. I don't know whether they took the same route, I wouldn't be able

17 to tell you. I went one way, and I returned that same way.

18 Q. Let me ask you: Were you ever decorated as a member of the BiH

19 army?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you receive any recognition from the BiH army after the army

22 or during -- after the war or during the war?

23 A. No.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have one intervention, Your

25 Honours. One part of Mr. Oric's answer has not been recorded. When he

Page 1026

1 said that Nurif Rizvanovic's men, some seven or eight of them, were killed

2 by mines.

3 Q. Did you say that, for the record?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Who were the 500 men who joined Nurif Rizvanovic on his way to

8 Srebrenica?

9 A. I don't know. I never asked anybody. I only know that Professor

10 Sabit [phoen] from Bratunac was killed on that occasion on Crni Vrh. I

11 don't know his family name, and I really don't know who the other men were.

12 Q. Did they all leave from Tuzla to go to Srebrenica?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this is a

15 good moment for our first break because my next set of questions deals with

16 the period of time covering 1995. So with your leave, kindly let's take

17 this first break now.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Stojanovic. We'll have a 20-minute

19 break from now.

20 Mr. Bishop will be contacting you. It's in relation to the --

21 you know what. There's the Prosecution claim that there should be further

22 deletions in the -- in this indictment relating to Tolimir and Trbic. All

23 right. And the deadline, I believe, is today and we need to know what your

24 position is before we proceed with our judgement.

25 20 minutes from now.

Page 1027

1 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Oric, may we proceed, please?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Let's go back to 1995. In the article --

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the

9 identification, the article that we just had an occasion to see in front of

10 us, in the English version page 2, the beginning of the last paragraph on

11 that page.

12 Q. -- it says as follows in our language -- Mr. Oric, I'm reading

13 what it says in the article.

14 "On the eve of the fall of Srebrenica, I was given an order, as I

15 was the commander of a sabotage squad, to look after the UNPROFOR base

16 above the villages of Jaglici and Susnjari."

17 Does this reflect the truth?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can you tell us what was the situation like?

20 A. The UNPROFOR had left the base. The women stopped them in

21 Jaglici, the women and children. I arrived with my squad and took over

22 that gap that had previously been manned by the UNPROFOR. I came there

23 with my ten men.

24 Q. In the article it says further on, namely: "UNPROFOR troops were

25 trying to escape and we returned them to the base with Zoljas."

Page 1028

1 Help us, please, and help the Trial Chamber and tell us what a

2 Zolja is?

3 A. A Zolja is a hand-held rocket-launcher.

4 Q. Is this correct?

5 A. No. I was not there when the UNPROFOR were stopped. The women

6 and the children had left, that is possible, but I wasn't present there

7 with the Zoljas. The women and children stopped the APC, the one APC that

8 was there.

9 Q. Does that mean that what it says in the article are not your

10 words?

11 A. I don't remember ever having stated this.

12 Q. Help us, please, and tell us when was it, what day was it, when

13 the check-point or the observation point of the United Nations was

14 abandoned by the DutchBat?

15 A. It was on the 11th July, in the morning. They tried to flee, but

16 the women from Jaglici intercepted them and they couldn't flee. But they

17 did not want to return to the same place. They locked themselves in the

18 APC, and that's where they stayed. They did not dare to move on because

19 they would have had to go over the women and children. That's why I had to

20 go there with my ten men; that was on the 11th, in the morning, when they

21 tried to escape.

22 Q. When you say "they tried to escape," does it mean they never left

23 that place?

24 A. They were on the hilltop above the village, and they had been

25 stopped in the village. The distance is maybe some 2 or 300 metres. First

Page 1029

1 they were on the hilltop, and when they started running away they were

2 stopped and we then took up that position on the hill that they had manned

3 previously. That is an elevation point when they -- that they had held.

4 They tried to escape from there, but they were stopped by the women and

5 children in the village some 2 or 300 metres down the hill.

6 Q. If I understand you properly, they stayed in the village. They

7 were no longer on the hilltop. They were in the village of Jaglici. How

8 long they stayed there?

9 A. I don't know when they left because I did not have an opportunity

10 to see the village. I suppose that when all the people left they left with

11 them, but I don't know when, at what time.

12 Q. If you couldn't see them, how do you know that they had withdrawn

13 and that you and your unit were supposed to take over that elevation point?

14 A. Because we were on the hilltop, and they were at the foot of the

15 hill, in the village. When we were on the hilltop, we could not see the

16 village. I don't know what happened later in the village once I took up

17 the position on the hilltop. I could not see the village of Jaglici from

18 there. That's why I don't know what happened next in the village, whether

19 they left on that same day or whether they left with the rest of the

20 population. I don't know. I did not see them leave the village because I

21 did not have a line of vision from the hilltop to the village.

22 Q. Before that were you at a point from which you could see their

23 observation point?

24 A. We were in front of the observation point, in front of their

25 observation. Their observation point was behind our backs as well as the

Page 1030

1 village of Jaglici. So we did not have an opportunity to see that. We

2 could only see the area towards Kravica, Jezestica.

3 Q. How do you know -- how did you know then that you were supposed

4 to take over the line from which they had withdrawn?

5 A. The courier came and told us what had happened. He told us that

6 they had tried to run away and that the line had to be taken over, and

7 there was nobody else there but the ten of us. We were the only ones who

8 could do that.

9 Q. What unit was that courier from?

10 A. From our unit, from the manoeuvre unit.

11 Q. Are we talking about 283rd Brigade that you've mentioned before?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What unit is that, your manoeuvre unit?

14 A. The manoeuvre company.

15 Q. On whose strength was that manoeuvre company that you're

16 attacking?

17 A. On the strength of the BiH army, the company that was in that

18 part between Jaglici, Susnjari, Brezovina and during the time when UNPROFOR

19 there or the brigade had been disbanded and the only thing that remained

20 were companies.

21 Q. What was the name of that company?

22 A. A manoeuvre company.

23 Q. Was it known as the 283rd?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I must admit that I am a bit confused. You said that on that

Page 1031

1 day, on the 11th of July, you were resting at home.

2 A. Yes. I was on the line, then we were given free time. The

3 things went like that. You were on the line for 24 hours, and then for 24

4 hours you were left to go home.

5 Q. On the 11th, in the morning or in the afternoon, in other words

6 on that day, were you on the line or were you free?

7 A. On that day I was free -- or rather, I was supposed to be free

8 because there was -- there were no troops to man that position. I had to

9 go there with my men to man that position because there were no other men

10 on that line.

11 Q. Help us, please. When was it on the 11th, what time of day?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Was it before noon or in the afternoon?

14 A. I don't know. It may have been either or.

15 Q. Very well. Do you know Ibrahim Mandzic, whose father's name is

16 Idriz?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was he at the time? I'm talking about the year 1995.

19 A. I don't know what rank he had. I know that he was a commander,

20 but I don't know what was he the commander of.

21 Q. Let me help you. He was a major, but I am interested in the unit

22 that he commanded. Do you know what unit was that?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Let's move on. Do you know who -- who --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please repeat the name?

Page 1032

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, if you could kindly repeat the

3 name because the interpreters couldn't get it.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. For the

5 record, I was asking about Major Zulfo Tursunovic, whose father's name is

6 Salko. Thank you. I believe that this has been now recorded correctly.

7 Q. Mr. Oric, was he also one of the commanders?

8 A. I believe that he was a commander in Suceska, I suppose so. Most

9 probably he was.

10 Q. Do you know what unit he commanded?

11 A. I don't know. I am not from Suceska. Suceska is far away from

12 where I was and I don't know. At that time, anybody could be commander,

13 anybody could represent themselves as commander. I don't know. I know

14 that he was one of the persons in charge there with most seniority or

15 something like that.

16 Q. Who was Major Ibro Dudic, son of Husein, if you know?

17 A. I did not have an occasion to meet him.

18 Q. Did you hear of him?

19 A. I did in songs. I believe that he hails from Skelani, and that's

20 why I never had any contacts or meetings with him.

21 Q. Does that mean that there were songs about him?

22 A. I heard a song in which he is mentioned as having been killed or

23 gone missing.

24 Q. Your commander or the head of your unit in 1995, was that Hazim

25 Djanovic, son of Behaija?

Page 1033

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Your Honours,

2 the name is Djanovic Hazim, son of Behaija, B-e-h-a-i-j-a.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not familiar with the name,

4 it doesn't ring a bell. I don't know where that person is from. If he's

5 from Skelani or Osmace, believe me, I don't know many people from there.

6 We did not have any occasion to meet people from there and I don't know him

7 personally and I don't know that he was chief or head. I don't know who

8 the chief was. We are not interested in that. The only thing we were

9 interested in was how to survive the whole thing.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... because having

11 been here five years this has happened before. Sometimes it's a question

12 of how you pronounce the name of a person, and one letter makes a big

13 difference to the witness. So if it's Hasim instead of Hasib or Hasib

14 instead of Hasim, he will tell you: I don't know. So let's try to be

15 precise. If you don't know, just go on and ask him who his commander was

16 in 1995. But I have had yes and no answers simply on the basis of a letter

17 in a long name which changes. You speak his own language, so I mean you

18 shouldn't have problems in pronunciation, but ...

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. When we

20 start talking about names and place names, I shall do that, but let me

21 finish with this and let me mention just one more name.

22 Q. Do you know who Ejub Golic is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was he at the time? What was his position or function?

25 A. He was the commander of Glogovac [as interpreted], which is his

Page 1034

1 own place.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... again we're

3 talking of 1995. Was he still the commander of Glogova in 1995?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he was there

5 in 1995. Some people had left for Tuzla for additional training. I don't

6 know whether he was at the command post at the time or somebody stood in

7 for him. He was in Tuzla, then he returned. I don't know exactly whether

8 he was there in 1995. In 1992, before the UNPROFOR arrived, he was

9 commander.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I can be of assistance.

11 Q. Is the village of Glogova a village that in 1995 was part of the

12 Srebrenica zone or was it under the control of the Army of Republika

13 Srpska?

14 A. It was under the control of the VRS.

15 Q. However, the unit that was under Ejub Golic's command was

16 composed of the villagers of Glogova. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do we agree that all these units were on the strength of the 28th

19 Division?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The 28th Division, in your knowledge, in addition to the infantry

22 weapons, did it also have artillery pieces and anti-armoured pieces?

23 A. It did, but without shells.

24 Q. Are you telling us that these pieces could not be used?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1035

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

2 MR. THAYER: May we just have a time-frame, Your Honour? The

3 time-frame would probably make a difference, I would imagine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I -- thank you.

5 Yes, I would suggest that you precisely do that, Mr. Stojanovic.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Oric, were we talking about 1995?

8 A. I suppose so, yes.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this is the

10 time when I would kindly ask you to allow me to show the witness a video

11 clip that we received from the Prosecution. This is ERN V0004417. This is

12 the ERN on that exhibit, and because of the fact that I still don't have

13 much experience with all this, I would like to provide you with our

14 identification number. This is Defence Exhibit 4D14. But we shall see

15 what your decision is going to be with regard to the procedure with

16 admitting video clips. I would kindly ask the technical booth to provide

17 the witness with a video clip or just a still from the clip that depict

18 events in Srebrenica on the 10th of July, 1995. I repeat, 10 July 1995.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Before -- because you are expecting a decision from

20 us, but before we can decide, do you intend to make use of only one clip

21 from the video or do you intend to put questions on the entire video?

22 Because if you're just going to refer to one clip, we go straight to that

23 clip. If you're going to put questions on the entire video, then we would

24 play the entire video. But the policy here has always been unless there

25 are -- there's an opposition which is a valid one or which is considered to

Page 1036

1 be a valid one, you can bring forward any evidence that is evidently and

2 has probative value.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our intention

4 is to discuss the 29 minutes of this video clip that we received from the

5 Prosecutor, and we shall focus on just that one segment of this video tape.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I also take it that although you were seeking our

7 go ahead, you were not anticipating any kind of objection on the part of

8 the Prosecution.

9 Are you -- do you have any particular objection to the Defence

10 making use of this video or this still?

11 MR. THAYER: No, Your Honour. If I understand which video we're

12 talking about, I'm trying to see from our exhibit list whether it is in

13 fact the former Blagojevic Srebrenica trial video, and if that's what it

14 is, we have no objection. That's been used many times before. As long as

15 we have a way of memorialising that particular clip and making sure it's

16 accessible in the record in the future, then we have no objection.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you. Perhaps if the -- if the court

18 staff have managed to locate it, they know exactly which one it is and they

19 can give you the information.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I am told, Mr. Thayer, that the Defence team has a

22 65 ter number for this video. So perhaps, Mr. Stojanovic, if he has it

23 handy will repeat that number that can help you identify that video. All

24 right. It should have been disclosed before --

25 MR. THAYER: Yes. Your Honour, when I said "exhibit list," I

Page 1037

1 meant on the Defence exhibit list.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah.

3 MR. THAYER: If there's a 65 ter number, then we have no problem.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we are seeing on the monitor a kind of

5 building which looks like a bus stop or something like that, I don't know.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the technical

8 assistance.

9 Q. Mr. Oric, can you recognise where this is taking place?

10 A. In Srebrenica.

11 Q. Is this facility the gas station in Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said that you were an old artillery man. What arms was it

14 fired from?

15 A. A mortar.

16 Q. Which mortar?

17 A. I was not able to see if it was 80 millimetres or 120

18 millimetres.

19 Q. If I say that this was on the 10th of July, 1995, in Srebrenica,

20 could you help us identify which unit was located at the time in

21 Srebrenica?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Did this unit fire mortar shells?

24 A. Now that I've seen it, probably yes. But until I have seen this,

25 I didn't know about it.

Page 1038

1 Q. Does it mean that they were in possession of mortar shells, which

2 is contrary to your statement claiming that there were no mortar shells?

3 A. I don't know. I know that -- I don't know where they were able

4 to find them. I know that UNPROFOR had taken all the APCs, the tanks.

5 Everything was handed over to UNPROFOR. So I don't know where they could

6 come by these weapons. I was not present there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Stojanovic, because you've been

8 assuming throughout that this was a unit that was firing these mortars.

9 And I want to make sure that the witness accepts that it was a unit,

10 although he doesn't know which unit it would be.

11 Mr. Oric, have you followed my remark?


13 JUDGE AGIUS: We saw in the video some people gathered around a

14 mortar, and some were using that mortar. Do you agree that that was a unit

15 there using that mortar? Are you agreeing with what was put to you by the

16 Defence counsel?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't see the whole

18 unit, only some individuals, so I wouldn't be able to see which unit or if

19 it was a unit.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, that makes it a fair

21 description of what is in the video.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. If I may conclude with this exhibit, do you agree that this was

24 not, in Srebrenica on the 10th of July, a unit of the VRS?

25 A. I agree.

Page 1039

1 Q. Thank you. You stated just now that you didn't know how they

2 came in possession of the mortar shells. I will try to help you out

3 through the next exhibit, and I kindly ask you to help us out as well.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me show another

5 exhibit that we were able to find in the general collection. This is

6 document ERN 01854496 up to 4499. I would now like to request assistance

7 from e-court to show to the witness exhibit -- Defence Exhibit 4D13.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the ERN number you gave us the refers to the

9 English text or to the B/C/S text? Because sometimes it's not the same.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honour, from

11 the translation service we were told that they didn't have time to

12 translate this exhibit and another exhibit into English, so that I will

13 avail myself of the B/C/S version at this point. This is just a single

14 sentence. We gave a copy of these documents to the interpreters, and the

15 translation service told us that by tomorrow these documents will be

16 translated as well. Thank you.

17 So I would like to ask for Exhibit 4D13 to be shown on the

18 screen. On page 2, this is the next, if you could zoom in on paragraph 6,

19 please. Thank you very much.

20 Q. Mr. Oric, can you see and can you read this text?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In paragraph 6, I will read it out: "We have brought and

23 returned four brigade commanders, two Chiefs of Staff of the brigades, and

24 the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division for the preparations of the

25 upcoming operation [Realtime transcript read in error "preparation"] of

Page 1040

1 joining the enclaves. The person who did not return was the commander of

2 the division, who was supposed to take the next helicopter out. Since the

3 last sortie of the helicopter had a tragic ending, Nasir stayed behind."

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now kindly ask you in

5 the e-court to display the heading of this document.

6 Your Honour, this document shows that the author of this document

7 is the General Staff of the BiH army. This document was produced on the

8 13th of July, 1995, and that it was sent, as you see in the right-hand side

9 corner, in capital letters to the president of the Presidency of the

10 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina through the command of the 1st Corps.

11 Q. Having identified this document, let me put to you the following

12 question, Mr. Oric: Do you - I'm speaking about yourself personally - do

13 you know of the preparations for an operation by the ABiH with a view to

14 join the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are you aware of the fact that four commanders of brigades, two

17 Chiefs of Staff, and a Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, Ramiz

18 Becirovic, had been sent off for training?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where were they sent off for training?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Is it true that they were taken out by helicopter?

23 A. I don't know. I know they left; I don't know how they left, by

24 which means of transport.

25 Q. Were you told in your unit that in that time period a military

Page 1041

1 operation would be organised with a view to merge the enclaves of Zepa and

2 Srebrenica?

3 A. No, we were not informed of this.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. What's the source of origin of this

6 document, please? This is a document which has been disclosed to you by

7 the Prosecution, as I take it? Yeah. What's -- what is its source? Which

8 collection does it come from, in other words?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that I have identified

10 this document as belonging to the general collection of documents disclosed

11 to us by the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we are on the same wavelength on

13 this.

14 Yes, Madam Faveau.

15 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I think I might be able to help you,

16 Your Honour. It is a document of the Prosecution, indeed, but that was

17 never disclosed to us. We've -- we were -- we found them in the last week

18 in the general collection among the documents that are not cited. We found

19 them by chance, just like I found yesterday by chance the interview of Mr.

20 Oric.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for that information, but it's another

22 kind of information that I am asking. I mean, this is a document which

23 supposedly, on the face of it at least, is sent to the president of the

24 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina or is it one of the documents that has

25 been provided by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Is it a

Page 1042

1 document that has been recovered by the Serb forces in Srebrenica and

2 turned over to the Office of the Prosecution by the Serb forces or found by

3 the Office of the Prosecution in some kind of collection, like the Sokolac

4 collection? This is what -- I mean, you would have in your records the

5 origin of this document.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I will identify that, and as you know our

7 system as well as we do, I will find that answer for you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm saying this because there are documents

9 purporting, on the face of it, to be documents being admitted by the

10 Bosnian -- Bosnian forces that have been handed over to the Prosecution by

11 the authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina and others that have been

12 recovered by the Prosecution from collections which have an exclusive

13 Serbian or Serb origin. And that's important to know.

14 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is a

16 question for the Prosecution because we found it in the general collection

17 of documents. Thank you very much. Just for the record, I was warned that

18 on page 48, line 3, instead of the word "preparation," there should say

19 "operation." It should say "operation."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the context of the merger

22 [Realtime transcript read in error "murder"] of the enclaves. Thank you,

23 Your Honour.

24 I would now like to have the second page of the document shown.

25 Your Honour, if I may intervene again, hopefully this will be the

Page 1043

1 last time. On page 50, line 24, it says "murder of enclaves," it was

2 supposed to say the operation of a merger or joining of enclaves.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This wouldn't be one of the substantive errors you

4 raise during the sitting. Something like that you raise later with the

5 staff. Thank you.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Mr. Oric, we're still on the same document. If you can have a

8 look, I will read out the second paragraph of the document, which was

9 drafted by the Main Staff of the ABiH on the 13 of July, 1995. In the

10 table it is correctly stated what was delivered to Srebrenica and Zepa when

11 it comes to materiel and technical equipment.

12 Mr. Oric, can you see that?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. Under 1 in this table it says: Bullets delivered 350, 4.000; 658

15 for Srebrenica. Under 2 and under 3, again the calibre of the bullet is

16 stated and the figure is 20.324 and 26.520. Further on in this table

17 produced by the General Staff of the ABiH army it says that you were also

18 delivered shells for the 60-millimetre mortar, 275; that you were also

19 delivered, under 15, 150 automatic rifles; that you were also delivered a

20 launcher for an RPG-7 with OPT. I suppose that this refers to the optical

21 means on the artillery piece. And the figure is 44.

22 Can you please assist us and tell us, what is the launcher for,

23 RPG-7?

24 A. I wouldn't know.

25 Q. And can you please tell us what is under item 13, launcher TF-8

Page 1044

1 red arrow, and below that, rockets for TF-8?

2 A. Never heard of those before. I'm not familiar with these.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, forgive me for putting this

4 question, but since I don't have the English translation of this document I

5 can't look it up myself. Does the document itself indicate a time-frame

6 when all this armour here was supposed to have been delivered to Zepa, to

7 Srebrenica, and the other place?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. This document

9 says that the delivery of the materiel and technical means had already been

10 completed and that those were already delivered to Srebrenica and Zepa, and

11 the date is 13 July 1995. In other words, this was a fait accompli. This

12 had already been done. In any case, I hope that the translation of this

13 document is forthcoming tomorrow and I would like to thank you again for

14 allowing me to use the original today.

15 Q. Mr. Oric, we are moving on. I understand that you don't know

16 much about the previous document, but maybe this is the answer to your

17 question when you said: I don't know where the mortar shells had come

18 from.

19 Let's try and use another exhibit that has been translated into

20 English, Your Honours. For identification, this is also a document that

21 was located in the same way as the previous one, and the ERN number on the

22 document is 01854595 up to 4601. Can this document be placed on e-court,

23 and the Defence identification is 4D5.

24 While this is being done, Your Honours, I would like to draw your

25 attention to the fact that I'm going to be using the English version of

Page 1045

1 this document. On page 3 of this document, page 3 of the document, the

2 penultimate paragraph, and the document is the introductory speech of the

3 commander, army General Rasim Delic, delivered before the Assembly of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina during the debate on military causes of the fall of

5 Srebrenica in July 1995. This is the title of the document. Can we also

6 show the same document on e-court in B/C/S and can we zoom in on page 3 of

7 the B/C/S version, and can we zoom in on the middle portion of that page.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the English version is page 3, the

9 fourth paragraph from the bottom.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 If I may proceed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Oric, can you please focus on a paragraph which reads so in

15 this report on the military causes of the fall of Srebrenica: "23 tonnes

16 of equipment and 26 passengers were taken to Srebrenica and Zepa." Can you

17 see this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How could it happen that from Srebrenica, which was a

20 demilitarised zone at the time, that 23 tonnes of equipment could be taken

21 to Srebrenica?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Let me take this -- break this question into two parts. Could it

24 be done by vehicles?

25 A. Probably not.

Page 1046

1 Q. By helicopters?

2 A. Possible.

3 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at that time in 1995 there were

4 any overflights by helicopter towards the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica?

5 A. I never saw a helicopter land in Srebrenica. As for Zepa, I

6 wouldn't know. Zepa was quite far away. As regards Srebrenica and the

7 area where I lived, a helicopter never landed there. It couldn't have

8 happened because UNPROFOR was there and they would have reacted.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, again, I'm sorry I have to

10 intervene and stop your cross-examination, but again this is the first time

11 I'm looking at this document and by no means am I claiming that I have read

12 it throughout. But I am looking at the contents of this page, and there is

13 nothing that indicates to me that this page refers to the 1995 period or

14 time-frame. Rather, it seems that the entire page is indicative of events

15 that refer to 1992 and 1993. So I may be completely wrong in making this

16 assertion, but looking at this page this is what I seem -- at least I

17 understand. If that is the case, I think you are free to put questions to

18 the witness, of course, but only in relation to the time-frame that this

19 page refers to. Because I was understanding all the questions that you

20 were putting to the period of 1995, proximate to these events and proximate

21 -- and as a bridge with the previous document that you showed to the

22 witness, namely the supply of all this equipment to Srebrenica, Zepa, et

23 cetera. Here we have all these times, and I was understanding this to be a

24 continuation of your previous question. If it refers to 1992 and 1993,

25 then obviously it doesn't follow. I think -- have I made myself clear? I

Page 1047

1 didn't want to interrupt you by any means, but I think we need to be a

2 little bit more clear with -- with the witness.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for this

4 intervention. This is how I understand this document as well, as referring

5 to the period as of the moment of the demilitarisation of Srebrenica under

6 the -- pursuant to the decision of the -- of the UN council until the --

7 the report was drafted. But I think we can move on.

8 If I may ask e-court to put page 7 in the B/C/S version on the

9 screen and in the English version page 7, last paragraph. I would like to

10 quote this paragraph.

11 Q. This paragraph states, Mr. Oric, by the commander Rasim Delic --

12 this is page 7, last paragraph, in the English version.

13 "I would conclude by saying that we did everything we could from

14 the military point of view, and I do not believe that anyone else undertook

15 more concrete action. But I repeat that from the military point of view,

16 Srebrenica fell in May 1993."

17 And then it goes on. It was written after 1995. Do you agree

18 with this presentation of the commander?

19 A. I would agree about 1993. If UNPROFOR hasn't come, we were

20 practically on your knees --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, this is a political assessment that

22 you are asking the witness to make. I mean, he is neither a historian nor

23 a judge, nor a military expert, even if he's been a member of his army and

24 a captain or a commander of a sabotage group. Let history answer that

25 question.

Page 1048

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Oric, are you familiar with the term "bandera trougao"?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Right. I think I can draw this

5 to a conclusion.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but we need to know what it is because the

7 interpreter has used the same two words that you used in your own language.

8 So --

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may intervene,

10 on page 56, line 6 of the transcript, the term is -- so in English it would

11 be lamppost triangle. He answered that he didn't know what it was, and

12 there I stopped. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, we will have an

13 opportunity very shortly --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we have got it twice wrong because in the

15 transcript, it says that he answered yes, that he knew what it was, not

16 that he didn't know. Yes, Mr. Thayer, just don't make it more complicated.

17 MR. THAYER: I'll do my best, but I think that area is known as

18 the bandera triangle, and that is how we have understood it to be

19 translated historically.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing to do with the Bermuda one?

21 MR. THAYER: Not that I know of.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And we need to know if the witness knew about it or

23 heard about the term or not.

24 Had you heard about -- did you ever hear about the bandera

25 trougao?

Page 1049

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we've got both explanations now in

3 the transcript. He never knew about it and we know what it means.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will have an

5 opportunity, as we receive the statements of the Dutch witnesses, to hear

6 about this. This was just by means of introduction.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]...

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Oric, I think we can speed it up. Can we conclude that in

10 the demilitarised area of Srebrenica, after you have seen these documents,

11 that there were members of the 28th Division present there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If the army was present there, then we can agree that Srebrenica

14 had not been demilitarised, as was ordered by a resolution of the Security

15 Council?

16 A. I know for a fact that it was demilitarised.

17 Q. If it was demilitarised, then where did the weapons come from?

18 A. This is the first time I saw something like this.

19 Q. All right. We'll -- we'll raise this issue again, but not with

20 you.

21 Let me ask you once again. As I understood, while you were in

22 Susnjari on the 11th of July in the afternoon hours of 1995, that Ramiz

23 Becirovic, the then-commander, addressed you. Is it correct?

24 A. He did not address us; he simply came out and said -- and told

25 the deminers to head for Tuzla and that the people would follow them. He

Page 1050

1 couldn't -- some people were very far away from where he was standing, and

2 they all stood up and went, set off. The armed soldiers went first, and

3 they were able to cross over to the free territory. As they had set out,

4 they were able to complete the journey.

5 Q. Which was the -- which unit went last?

6 A. I don't know. In the end, it was hard to say which unit was

7 which unit, and everybody just went. And it was all jumbled. It was hard

8 to say who belonged to which unit. The command went first. We didn't

9 receive any orders. Once we set out from Jaglici, it was hard to

10 distinguish who belonged to whom and where.

11 Q. I understood that you stated that in the direct examination that

12 you were grouped in units and that at the end the independent Brci

13 Battalion, mountain battalion, was there under the command of Ejub Golic.

14 A. There were civilians, there were soldiers, it was all mixed up.

15 How can I explain? It was hard to distinguish which command, who was the

16 commander. People simply came.

17 Q. On that occasion, did Ramiz Becirovic address the army using a

18 megaphone?

19 A. No, he didn't.

20 Q. Did you see this or are you just presuming?

21 A. I was close to the house where they were sitting. He did not use

22 a megaphone.

23 Q. In your estimate, how many armed soldiers were there?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Do you agree that Ramiz Becirovic was the one issuing the order

Page 1051

1 to start moving at that time?

2 A. Yes, and he headed in the front with the deminers and the armed

3 soldiers, he led the way.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

5 you to use another document coming from the general collection from the

6 Prosecution, which bears the ERN number 01854518 up to 4532, and for e-

7 court this is the Defence Exhibit 4D2. If you could focus your attention

8 on page 14 of the English version, and I kindly ask you to place page 12 of

9 the B/C/S version of the text on the screen for the benefit of the witness.

10 So in B/C/S, this is page 12.

11 Your Honour, while we're waiting for this, let me say that this

12 is a statement, we received it in English, in the English translation, a

13 statement made by Ramiz Becirovic after the breakthrough to Tuzla to the

14 military security services of the 2nd Corps of the ABiH on the 11th of

15 August, 1995.

16 Q. Mr. Oric, I will read this out. This is in the seventh line in

17 the B/C/S version. In this report Ramiz Becirovic says: "The strength of

18 the column that started moving on that night was never established, but my

19 -- according to my estimate, in the column there were between 10.000 and

20 15.000 people. I had around 6.000 troops, without counting the troops,

21 from Zepa. There are not many women in the column, and I did not see a lot

22 of children either."

23 Did you read this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it possible that according to what you saw on that day, that

Page 1052

1 what Ramiz Becirovic is saying is correct, that there were 6.000 troops

2 there?

3 A. I don't know whether there were or not.

4 Q. As you sit here today, you can't tell us whether the statement of

5 your commander at that moment was correct or not?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

7 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe that question has been asked

8 and answered.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I agree with you. Thank you.

10 Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And again, to make this clear, this is the third or

13 fourth document that comes from the general collection and is being used.

14 I would imagine that you are also going to tender these documents, and this

15 applies to any other future document -- document that in future that comes

16 from the general collection. Please make sure that at some point in time

17 we will have in the records the origin, the source of this document.

18 Thanks.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Oric, you said that there was a Serb woman moving with that

21 column. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there any other Serbs in the column of people?

24 A. I don't know. The only person I was aware of was that lady. She

25 had been with us throughout the war, and then she set out with us.

Page 1053

1 Q. Do you know whether in Srebrenica in 1995 there were any Serbs or

2 Croats?

3 A. I know that there were Croats, but I'm -- I don't know about

4 Serbs or others.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the population in Srebrenica in 1995, and

6 that includes the refugees? This is before 11th of July. Regarding to how

7 many thousands in your calculation, in your estimate.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, Your Honour.

9 I would say around 30. This was at least the figure that the humanitarian

10 organisations operated with. I don't know exactly.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You mentioned a person who's name was Ilija. You said that he

13 was from the village of Spat in the municipality of Srebrenica, do you

14 remember?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. You said that you remember him by the long moustache that he

17 sported?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us how old that man was?

20 A. In my estimate he was over 65. He was maybe even older than

21 that. In the meantime, I heard that he has died. At that time, he was

22 well over 65. I'm talking about 1995.

23 Q. We will then agree that he was an old man, to all intents and

24 purposes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1054

1 Q. And just one more thing that I would like to ask you. As you set

2 out with the column, did you see at any point in time that you had been

3 overtaken by Ejub Golic and his unit?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let's try and gather our bearings together and see where that

6 happened. Was that before or after the ambush in Ravni Buljim that you

7 spoke about?

8 A. The ambush was not in Buljim but in Kamenica.

9 Q. I apologise.

10 A. He overtook us before the ambush.

11 Q. Was that even before the rest [Realtime transcript read in error

12 "arrest"] on the 12th of July that you spoke about? Did he overtake you

13 even before that?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again I have been

16 warned that on page 62, line 12, the record shows instead of word rest that

17 they took on the 12th of July, the word that entered the record is

18 "arrest." Can that be corrected in the record?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. It could also

20 have been corrected later. It's so obvious. We haven't spoken or heard

21 any evidence about an arrest on the 12th of July.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe as well the testimony was

25 that he was captured on the 13th of July. I just wanted to make that

Page 1055

1 correction, if we could, if that question could be clarified. I think that

2 is an error. I don't know if that's an error in the question or in the

3 translation.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't know either, but I think your submission

5 is correct. That's -- corresponds with his testimony.

6 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. And let's finish with this. During your journey between

9 Susnjari, Buljim, Kamenica, and so on, towards Konjevic Polje, did it

10 happen at one point that one part of the column headed off towards Zepa?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you see any part of the column heading towards Zepa?

13 A. No.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this moment I

15 would like to show the witness another exhibit, and this would be my last

16 question before the next break. I am drawing my cross-examination to an

17 end. This document has not been translated yet. I would like to confront

18 the witness with just one sentence, and I would kindly ask the e-court to

19 display on the screen Exhibit Number 4D10.

20 Can you focus on the middle portion of this document, sir.

21 Your Honour, while this is being done, I would like to say that

22 this is from the same collection and this is a document of the General

23 Staff of the BiH army which was signed by the head of the operations team,

24 Brigade General Ramiz Suvalic. The date on this document is 4 August 1995,

25 and it was sent by the General Staff of the BiH to the president of the

Page 1056

1 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, again through the

2 command of the 1st Corps of the BiH army.

3 Mr. Oric, can we look at the document together, please.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in the middle

5 portion of the document on the screen. It says here: According to the

6 same data, in Zepa there were around 1.260 troops and 250 civilians, i.e.,

7 able-bodied men, and around 650 troops from Srebrenica. I repeat 650

8 troops from Srebrenica.

9 Q. Can you see this, Mr. Oric?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know anything about this? Does this document jog your

12 memory as to the fact that 650 troops from Srebrenica crossed over to Zepa?

13 A. It is possible that on the following days they returned, but on

14 that first day nobody returned, on that day all the time up to when I was

15 arrested. I don't know what happened later on.

16 Q. In other words, you're allowing the possibility that this might

17 have happened on some of the following days, that is, that 650 troops from

18 the convoy crossed over to Zepa?

19 A. It is possible.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 And let me put to you the last question before the break. If I

22 understand you well, this column that was marching single file during the

23 night between 11 and 12, and on the 12th in the morning left the protected

24 area of Srebrenica and started moving towards Konjevic Polje. Is that

25 correct?

Page 1057

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Your Honours, this may be a good time for our next break. I

4 will need just 15 minutes more after the break, and according to the

5 schedule of -- that the Defence teams have came up with, I have been

6 provided with the questions that my colleagues wanted to put to the

7 witness. So I believe that we will be able to stick to the time that has

8 been allowed us.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes -- thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

10 Mr. Thayer, and we'll have a break very soon. Yes.

11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, given the hour and the number of

12 examinations still to come, may we release the witness that we had ready to

13 go in the event that Mr. Oric concluded today?

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 Let's have a 20-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey and Defence teams, the Appeals

22 Chamber have handed down their decision on the matter that was referred to

23 earlier on by Mr. McCloskey. It's a confidential decision. I don't know

24 if you would receive a copy of it by the end of today because it has just

25 been handed down. I can make our copy available to -- to you. We will

Page 1058

1 have a photocopy made of it.

2 Madam Usher, if you can photocopy this and we will hand it to Mr.

3 Zivanovic and he will --

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So that's even better. Madam

6 Registrar will be sending it by e-mail to you. It's only the one part of

7 it that you need to be aware of; otherwise, I think it's plain sailing.

8 Let's continue and finish, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 Mr. Oric, we are trying to finish with your testimony today. I

10 doubt whether it's going to be possible.

11 Do you plan to have re-examination as things stand at the moment,

12 Mr. Thayer?

13 MR. THAYER: My questions are increasingly getting crossed off my

14 list, Your Honour. So I don't imagine I will have many, if any at all.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. May we proceed, Mr. Oric?

19 A. Yes, we may.

20 Q. I wanted to go back to my last question before the break when you

21 confirmed that you marched single file and that you left the protected area

22 of Srebrenica, and I referred to the 28th Division. At that time - and

23 we're talking about July 1995 - did the 28th Division have enough uniforms

24 for all the soldiers on its strength?

25 A. No.

Page 1059

1 Q. The day before yesterday you told us that you, yourself, on the

2 12th and the 13th of July wore civilian clothes. This is on page 875 of

3 the transcript, and at the beginning of page 876 of the transcript. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You've also told us that you were armed, that you had two hand-

7 grenades. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yesterday and the day before yesterday, you also confirmed for us

10 that the time you had been the commander of a sabotage unit, as you called

11 it yourself. Is that correct?

12 A. I was the commander of a manoeuvre squad.

13 Q. A squad. I believe that we should clarify this because there

14 were some -- here I have a document, and let me ask you just one thing

15 about it. On the 22nd of June, 1995, it says in this document the sabotage

16 units of the 282nd and 283rd Brigades -- can you please follow --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer, yes, we will be able to follow

18 better once we know which document we're talking about.

19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase my

21 question. I'll put it in a different way in order to not waste time. I'm

22 going to raise this issue with another witness.

23 Q. My question to you is the following: On the 22nd of June, 1995,

24 the sabotage units of the 282nd and 283rd Brigades carried out a sabotage

25 operation and they liquidated four aggressor soldiers. They torched a van

Page 1060

1 and confiscated two automatic rifles in the area between Zeleni Jadro,

2 Zeleni Jadar, and the village of Kragljivoda, near the village of Osmace.

3 Did you participate in this operation?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Did you hear of this operation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And now I would like to draw your attention to another very

8 important issue for us. You have stated - and this was the day before

9 yesterday - on direct on page 889, lines from 10 to 15, that in the evening

10 of 13 of July with two buses you had set off from Konjevic Polje towards

11 Bratunac. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You testified before this Tribunal on the 21st of July, 2003, in

14 the Blagojevic and Jokic trial. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I would like to show you one part of the transcript from that

17 trial.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, the page

19 is 1344 of the transcript, lines from 2 to 21, from this trial. Your

20 Honour, since I am in the position that we discussed yesterday, I would

21 like to read this transcript in B/C/S because this is the language that I

22 speak. I speak B/C/S. And I believe that you and all the others have a

23 copy of this transcript in English.

24 Q. On page 1344 you were questioned by Mr. McCloskey and --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I just want to make sure that

Page 1061

1 Prosecution is following. Is the reference that Mr. Stojanovic has just

2 given enough for you or --

3 MR. THAYER: Yes, it is, Your Honour. I have my own copy of that

4 testimony. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed then.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I would also like

7 to thank my learned colleague.

8 Q. The question put to you by Mr. McCloskey was this: "And once you

9 and the military police officers got on the buses, where did you go?"

10 "A. We went towards Bratunac. We stopped in Kravica, on the

11 right-hand side by the warehouse in Kravica. There was a large group of

12 people who were sitting in the meadow between the road and the warehouse.

13 That's where they stopped. And once all the three buses were full, we set

14 off towards Bratunac."

15 The following question was: "So did your buses take on people

16 from that meadow?"

17 You said: "Yes."

18 The next question: "How dark was it at this time that you are at

19 Kravica?"

20 Your answer was this: "It was dusk. Lights were just being

21 turned on, but one could see that this meadow was right by the road and

22 that it was full of people and that they were surrounded by the military.

23 I could see that very well."

24 Question by Mr. McCloskey: "Did you get a look over at the big

25 agricultural warehouse over there?"

Page 1062

1 Your answer: "Yes, it was behind their backs. They were sitting

2 in front [Realtime transcript read in error "behind"] of this warehouse and

3 facing the asphalt road."

4 "Q. Did you see any Muslims in the warehouse?"

5 Your answer was: "No."

6 "Q. Did you see any bodies around the area anywhere?"

7 And you said: "No, I didn't."

8 Do you still stick by the answers that you gave to Mr. McCloskey

9 at that time?

10 A. No. There were two buses, and that's the mistake that I spotted.

11 There were only two buses.

12 Q. Save for this remark, would the rest of your answers be correct?

13 A. I suppose so, yes.

14 Q. And let me just ask you this: When you were there on that

15 evening, on the 13th of July, in Kravica, did you hear shots?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we just clarify

18 this. On page 70, line 6, the answer or the quote from the transcript was

19 this: They were sitting in front of this warehouse, and in the transcript

20 it reads: They were sitting behind this warehouse.

21 Can I just confirm this with the witness.

22 Q. Were they sitting in front of or behind the warehouse?

23 A. In front of the warehouse.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As you're looking at the

25 warehouse from the road. And let us just finish with this.

Page 1063

1 Can I ask the e-court to go back to exhibit number -- actually,

2 this is the sketch of Bratunac and the number is P2900. And if we can have

3 the clean copy that we already saw earlier today when my colleague Jelena

4 Nikolic was cross-examining the witness.

5 Mr. Oric, this will be my last set of questions for you.

6 Your Honour, this is a document that you've already seen twice.

7 I'm talking about the drawing, the sketch of the area in the centre of

8 Bratunac that the witness, as he himself stated, had drawn himself. While

9 we are looking for the document, I would like to put a few introductory

10 questions to the witness --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The document is there. Go ahead.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Q. Mr. Oric, do you see that document before you, the sketch?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The day before yesterday you were asked by Their Honours what you

16 yourself wrote on the sketch. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please focus your attention on the square or

19 rectangular where it says "POLICE" in capital letters, can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Whose handwriting is this?

22 A. This is my handwriting. I wrote this, but below that, this is

23 not my handwriting.

24 Q. Did somebody dictate to you when you were writing this word

25 police?

Page 1064

1 A. No.

2 Q. In B/C/S, in our language, how do you say police station? Can

3 you spell that?

4 A. P-o-l-i -- P-o-l-i-c-i-j-s-k-a [Realtime transcript read in error

5 "Policijsa"] S-t-a-n-i-c-a.

6 Q. In our language does the word police --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you continue. You asked the witness to tell

8 what words are used in Serbo-Croat for police station and now we have

9 Policija Stanica. In our language does -- it doesn't make sense. The

10 question was not translated. How do you say police station? Can you spell

11 that? And then there was another question that doesn't show up here.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My next question, Your Honours,

13 was:

14 Q. Mr. Oric, in our language does the word p-o-l-i-c-e mean

15 anything?

16 A. This is my abbreviation. I could not fit the entire word. I

17 just wrote in a haste "p-o-l-i-c-e." I wanted to add the "j-a" as well,

18 but there was no room left and that's how it turned up.

19 Q. Let me just finish by saying this: Would you be surprised, if

20 you are familiar with the area, if I told you that the police station in

21 Bratunac is not where you indicated that it is? It is in a different

22 place. And I'm talking about the year 1995. Would you agree with me?

23 Would you think I am right?

24 A. This is my approximation based on my memory. This is not a

25 correct drawing, and I can't say that everything in the drawing is correct.

Page 1065

1 This is just an approximation. I thought that the police station could

2 have been somewhere near. This is not a hundred per cent accurate drawing.

3 This is just an approximation based on my memory.

4 Q. In other words, you would agree with me when I say that you don't

5 know in practical terms where exactly was the police station in 1995, in

6 July of that year?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- one moment, I have to intervene.

8 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

9 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe that question was just asked

10 and answered.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: He is -- he has answered the question. He has said

12 that what is shown in the sketch, the diagram, may not be exact, but that's

13 in relation to as to the site where he has chosen to indicate it and

14 proximity to other buildings. And I think the way you should address this

15 is to get a confirmation or a denial from him whether the police station

16 was along the same street as the Vuk Karadzic school, at least if he knows

17 that, or if it was situated in some other place. That's what I think we

18 need to get, because if it was in the same street, whether it's 100 metres

19 away or whether it's 200 metres away is not going to make much difference.

20 If it's in some other area and not in that same street, then yes of course

21 you can suggest that he doesn't know where the police station is or was.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know that we will

23 be given an opportunity to put this question to some other witnesses, but I

24 just wanted to clarify this with this witness as well.

25 Q. Sir, will you allow for a possibility that the police station was

Page 1066

1 in a different street in 1995, in July of that year?

2 A. I drew that sketch on what I remembered from before the war.

3 JUDGE KWON: Can I get the exact spelling of "police" in B/C/S?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] P-o-l-i-c-i-j-a.

5 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... thank you. The

6 transcript page 72 shows "j-s-a," that's why I clarified. Thank you.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

8 would like to draw to a conclusion.

9 Q. One more question for you, Mr. Oric. You have just told me, Mr.

10 Oric, that at one point on 12th July you had been overtaken by Ejub Golic

11 and his men. Can you help us and tell us whether at that moment there

12 occurred an incident between the moving column and the group that

13 accompanied Ejub Golic.

14 A. I can't remember that.

15 Q. Did you see anything, an argument, a fallout, a row, a shooting?

16 A. No, I didn't see any of those things. No incident occurred.


18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

19 further questions and I thank you for your patience.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

21 Yes, Mr. Sarapa.

22 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I apologise. I did not want to

23 interrupt my colleague Stojanovic during his cross-examination; however, on

24 page 72, line 9, when the witness spoke -- actually spelled the word police

25 station the letter k is missing. Instead of j-s-a there should be j-s-k-a.

Page 1067

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I understand. Policijska Stanica.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE KWON: However, the police itself is policija? Thank you.


5 Now, Madam Faveau, we have just become aware of a filing, joint

6 Defence filing, which relates to witness number 1.

7 Are you aware of this filing, Mr. McCloskey, or not?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I was able to quickly see the guts of it

9 over the machine.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, what I am going to say, you need to

11 understand that it's just a glimpse that I've had of this motion, because

12 at the same time I was trying to follow what's happening. I do have the

13 gist of what the substance of the motion is about. Considering the

14 proximity of the arrival of Mr. Ruez and also the importance of some of the

15 legal issues that have been raised in the motion itself, I think all this

16 calls for oral submissions and with -- in other words, I mean it's not the

17 case of giving you the usual fortnight to respond to the motion when you

18 expect to bring over Mr. Ruez before that. And we need to decide precisely

19 now that we have the motion what terms -- what would be the terms of --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I anticipate this is not a plain-sailing matter

22 that we can decide in a matter of a few minutes. So what I had in mind to

23 suggest is that we give it priority at this point in time and that tomorrow

24 afternoon you come prepared with your oral submissions in response to the

25 motion so that we will be in a position where we can mature our decision

Page 1068

1 later on over the weekend or early next week before Mr. Ruez is supposed to

2 start his -- starts testifying. And I take it also, reading the last

3 sentence, the last line, in the Defence motion that they are also prone to

4 have oral submissions in addition to what is contained in the motion

5 itself. So can we agree that tomorrow afternoon we start precisely with

6 hearing oral submissions on this matter? Yes, yes -- no, first we finish

7 with this witness for sure.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, but by -- I don't want to be

9 heard now with this witness here. A couple of additions on that point.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's conclude.

11 How much time do you require, Madam Faveau?

12 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I think about an hour, Mr.

13 President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How long was Mr. Stojanovic cross-examining? If

15 you can -- we are running loose, we are running loose, and the whole idea

16 was to exercise restraint throughout so that you don't tie our hands much.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, one factor, and I know there's

18 many things happening at once, but we have a 65-year-old man that we'd love

19 to get home tomorrow, if possible.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but again -- I have just checked again the

21 anticipated time required for cross-examination for that witness, and

22 that's 30 minutes each on the Defence, 30 minutes each, which would

23 obviously make it impossible to have that witness -- that's the next one,

24 all right, the one that the Appeals Chamber have decided upon.

25 Yes, Madam Faveau.

Page 1069

1 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may perhaps

2 clarify things a little bit. When we give an estimation of the cross-

3 examination, we do this on the basis of the time taken by the Prosecutor.

4 He had estimated the time that had gone a bit beyond that, and that is why

5 we may also go beyond the time that we had assessed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not commenting on that because -- I mean our --

7 especially after having heard Mr. Stojanovic say that he was practically

8 putting questions that you were going to put so he is going to cut short.

9 Mr. Stojanovic had indicated one hour, estimated one hour, and that has

10 gone to two hours, ten minutes. So for the time being, again, I mean, we

11 are letting you proceed. And then, as agreed, we will be able to take

12 stock of the situation and decide whether to intervene or whether to

13 proceed, and on the same aspect, forewarned is forearmed.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If the witnesses can handle it, we're ready to

15 take the time that's needed, Your Honour.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: ... and then leave five minutes towards the end so

18 that you round up whatever you are about to say in relation to the latest

19 motion, Mr. McCloskey. Would five minutes be enough?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Certainly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

22 So, Madam Faveau, could you please commence your cross-

23 examination of the witness.

24 Mr. Oric, you are now going to be cross-examined by Madam Faveau-

25 Ivanovic, who is appearing for General Miletic.

Page 1070

1 Yes, Madam Faveau.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Faveau:

3 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon. First of all, I would like to ask you a few

5 questions about the night that you spent in Bratunac. You said during the

6 interrogation in chief that someone tried to kill you. Do you remember

7 saying that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. And then you said that a military policeman arrived and that you

10 were able to get back on the bus. Is that exact?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would it therefore be correct to say that that military policeman

13 saved your life that night?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You also stated that a soldier climbed on to the bus, recognised

16 a man, and started beating him. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at that moment the military policeman was not on the bus?

19 A. No. They were in front of the bus.

20 Q. And when the military policeman went on to the bus or the

21 military police, they chased that soldier away. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it therefore correct to say that the military police did not

24 allow that soldier to continue beating that man?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1071

1 Q. You have already testified in the Blagojevic case, and during

2 that testimony on the 21st of July, 2003, you said on page 1.350 that a

3 woman got on the bus and insulted the Bosnian men who were on the bus. Do

4 you remember that episode?

5 A. Yes, I do, but this was not in front of the Vuk Karadzic school

6 but while we were waiting for the UNPROFOR APC.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. And once again, it was the

10 military police who took that woman off the bus. Is that correct?

11 A. No. The military police was replaced by the army. The army was

12 on the bus instead of the military police. When this woman came in, he

13 took off -- took away her rifle and sent her off the bus and told her: Why

14 did you send him?

15 Q. At any rate, the army did not allow that woman to continue

16 insulting you. Is that correct?

17 A. No. They didn't let her shoot at us.

18 Q. You spoke about a man who was sitting on the first seat and who

19 by accident hit a policeman. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You didn't see that man hit the policeman. Is that true?

22 A. Yes, we did. We saw it, all of us on the bus.

23 Q. Witness, when you testified, it was on the 28th of August of this

24 year, page 80, you said: [In English] "This man, as I heard from the other

25 prisoners, hit him back."

Page 1072

1 [Interpretation] Could you specify, did you personally see that

2 Muslim prisoner hitting the policeman or did you hear about that happening?

3 A. We all saw it, all of us on the bus saw him hit the policeman.

4 And then I heard from the other prisoners that he was not normal, that he

5 was crazy. That is what I heard from the other prisoners on the bus.

6 Q. Would it be correct to say that the man who hit the policeman was

7 then taken off the bus?

8 A. Yes, he was taken off the bus.

9 Q. And the last time that you saw that man was when he got off the

10 bus. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, when he was taken off the bus, that was the last time I saw

12 him, at the door of the bus.

13 Q. And you don't know what happened to this man afterwards. Is that

14 true?

15 A. In front of the bus I could see soldiers around him. I didn't

16 see him. He was being dragged. The military was around. We could hear

17 bursts of fire, but I couldn't tell who was firing them.

18 Q. You did not see that the man fell down to the ground either, did

19 you?

20 A. No. I only heard a burst of fire. I didn't see him.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a correction for the

23 transcript. The witness said on page 81, line 1, the witness said: I

24 can't tell you who fired the shot. And in the transcript it transpires

25 from the transcript that the witness said: I didn't see who fired a shot

Page 1073

1 at him or them.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- at least my transcript doesn't say that. My

3 transcript says: "But I couldn't tell who was firing." So it's basically

4 the same. This, in order, tallies with what you heard the accused -- the

5 witness state.

6 Let's proceed, Madam Faveau.

7 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Indeed, you cannot say that the shots that you heard were aimed

9 at that man. Is that correct?

10 A. I only heard them say: Drag him over there. I don't know where

11 to.

12 Q. Witness, the next morning did the Bosnian prisoners who had been

13 brought in during the night, were they then again put on the bus?

14 A. No. We were on the buses during the whole night.

15 Q. Witness, is it not correct that during the night some prisoners

16 were taken, were brought in by bus, not only your bus but other buses as

17 well?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects, "were taken off the

19 bus," in fact.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And the next morning, were those prisoners then put back on the

23 bus?

24 A. No.

25 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to submit to the witness a

Page 1074

1 document marked 3D10. The statement of the witness that he gave on July

2 22nd, 1995, at the public security station of Zivinice. Could we go to

3 page 2 of the document, in the middle of the page, and also on page 2 of

4 the English version.

5 Q. Witness, can you find the sentence around the middle of the page

6 that you have before you where you stated -- you made the following

7 statement: [In English] "The next day, at 11.00, they took out all

8 prisoners from the school gymnasium and put them on four buses and two

9 trucks."

10 A. I can't find it.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Now can you see what has been underlined?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness, is that what you stated?

14 A. I don't remember saying this.

15 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness the bottom

16 of the page where we see his signature.

17 Q. Witness, is this your signature?

18 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

19 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we move back to the passage

20 that we were looking at earlier, slightly higher on the page?

21 Q. Witness, I'm going to read you the entire paragraph relating to

22 Bratunac in this statement made on July 22nd, 1995.

23 You stated at the time: [In English] "I was on the first bus.

24 When he arrived in Bratunac, they took -- they took in front of the Vuk

25 Karadzic school and stopped there. The school gymnasium was full of

Page 1075

1 captured Muslim people, so they left us on the buses, where we spent a

2 night. During the night, a few Muslims were taken somewhere by Chetniks.

3 They did not return, and soon after they were taken away, I heard their

4 screaming and cry for help. The next day at 11.00 ... " [Interpretation] I

5 will not repeat the entire sentence.

6 Witness, is it correct that those are the first statements you

7 made after the tragic events at Srebrenica?

8 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

9 Q. At any rate, you can see that in that statement, while describing

10 -- or talking about Bratunac, you did not mention the shots nor the murders

11 nor a handicapped or retarded man. Is that correct?

12 A. Perhaps I didn't mention it. Perhaps I didn't think about it.

13 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask you whether after making that statement

14 you spoke with some people who suggested to you what you should say when

15 you spoke with officials.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Is it not true that at some time, I think it was in 1995, you

18 were disappointed by the attitude of the Bosnian authorities towards you?

19 A. I don't know. In what sense do you mean I was disappointed?

20 Q. Did you not have the impression that they were not sufficiently

21 taking care of you or paying attention to you?

22 A. Yes. At that time, they didn't pay any attention to anyone.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move back in time to the fall of

24 Srebrenica. When you learned about the fall of Srebrenica, did you receive

25 an order to go to Susnjari?

Page 1076

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. And how did you know that you had to go to Susnjari?

3 A. I had to go to Susnjari. I had -- I was heading for my house,

4 and I had to go through Susnjari. And there I met my sister, neighbours,

5 and they told us not to go to Lehovici because Lehovici were shelled, and

6 that we should go to Potocari. I had to go through Susnjari to come to my

7 house.

8 Q. You said that it was on the 28th of August, on page 41, that you

9 went to Susnjari, to the house of Sead. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. He is my cousin. And my sister's house was nearby.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the transcript is utterly misleading. The

12 transcript as it is, would have us understand that he said it wasn't --

13 when you were suggesting that he went to Susnjari, but that it was on the

14 28th of August that he went there to the house of Sead. So let's make the

15 clear. He was supposed to have said when he went to Susnjari, when he was

16 testifying on the 28th of August, just to be on the same wavelength,

17 because otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

18 Yes, go ahead, please, Madam Faveau.

19 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, on the 28th of August, you stated that the Srebrenica

21 command also arrived there. Were you referring to Susnjari or the house of

22 Sead?

23 A. Both Susnjari and Sead's house.

24 Q. Do you mean that the house of Sead was a gathering point of the

25 command of the 28th Division at that time?

Page 1077

1 A. It was hidden. It couldn't be shelled. Nobody could see it. It

2 was well sheltered. That's why we used that house for our discussions as

3 to what we would do. That's why the command gathered there, because it was

4 best protected from shelling and from views from the surrounding hills.

5 Q. Witness, before the command of the 28th Division arrived in that

6 house, did you know that the command of that division would arrive in that

7 house?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You stated yesterday that Ramiz Becirovic took the decision that

10 you had to leave for Tuzla. Is that correct?

11 A. Not only Ramiz, everybody else who was with him in the house. He

12 was indeed the person in charge, but they had deliberated and it had been

13 agreed that we should all go to Tuzla. He was the one who merely issued

14 that order.

15 Q. Can you tell me how Ramiz's decision and the decision of the

16 other members of the command of the 28th Division was communicated to the

17 others, the people who were gathered there?

18 A. It was by word of mouth. I said one person, that person said

19 another person, and we very soon all knew that we should be prepared to

20 move.

21 Q. Is it correct that Ramiz Becirovic and the command of the 28th

22 Division also decided that women and children would go to Potocari?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness, you said that when the column left for Susnjari - and

25 I'm speaking about the departure - the demining unit was supposed to leave

Page 1078

1 first. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, and they did go first.

3 Q. And where at that time were the members of that unit, the

4 demining unit?

5 A. I didn't see them. They must have been around, in front of the

6 house or around the house.

7 Q. And do you know how they received the order to leave first?

8 A. I suppose they had their commander who told them that, and that's

9 how they left, pursuant their commander's order. I wasn't present there.

10 I don't know. I don't know when the column started moving. I only heard

11 that the deminers had set out and that the command was to follow then, but

12 I was not in the presence of anybody issuing orders.

13 Q. You stated that at that time in Susnjari there were about 15.000

14 people. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And those 15.000 people weren't trying to leave, they were

17 patiently waiting for the demining unit to be the first to leave?

18 A. Yes. People were afraid of minefields, and somebody had to go

19 first. It was only logical it would be the deminers. If anybody else

20 wanted to go first, they would get killed. A lot of people didn't know the

21 area. They were not familiar with the terrain. They just had to sit and

22 wait.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Faveau, the time it's convenient for you to

24 stop, we will have that short discussion.

25 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I still have one or two questions on

Page 1079

1 the topic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.

3 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation]

4 Q. After the demining unit, was it one of the brigades of the 28th

5 Division that then left?

6 A. I can't remember. I didn't see that. It was night. It is

7 possible that they did.

8 Q. Can one say that the departure from Susnjari - and I'm only

9 talking about the departure, not about what happened later with the column

10 - but that the departure from Susnjari was well organised?

11 A. I wouldn't say so. I would say no.

12 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Faveau.

14 [In English] We are going to stop here for today. Tomorrow we

15 are going to finish with your testimony unless Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Sarapa or

16 Mr. Haynes intend to give us some surprises. You will be now escorted by

17 our staff, taken to your hotel, rest, and tomorrow we'll continue and

18 finish. And I thank you so much, Mr. Oric.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, and we fully understand, of

22 course, that you have had as much time as we have had to go through the

23 motions, but what -- yes. But what is of interest to us is whether your

24 first reaction is whether you would be prepared to deal with this matter

25 orally tomorrow or whether you also think you have sufficient time to hand

Page 1080

1 in a written response to the motion by tomorrow morning, by the end of

2 tomorrow morning, and then discuss it -- give it a --

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean written reply, and then final oral

5 submissions at 2.15 or after the witness finishes and then that would be

6 the end of it.

7 Mr. McCloskey.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think we can handle this

9 orally, and just -- before I forget, let me just address one other small

10 subject. You have been good to inform us of a motion regarding these

11 indictments, and if we could ask -- and that's due today. If we could ask

12 leave for one more day so my colleague behind me, Mr. Nicholls, will orally

13 respond to that, I'm sure you will get a better and brief response to that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see, is there any objection from any of the

15 Defence teams? I see none. So this is a follow-up to your response

16 relating to redactions that you have asked for from the indictment relating

17 to Tolimir and Trbic.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Right.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you have an extension until

20 tomorrow. I -- tomorrow. And we will receive oral submissions on that

21 from Mr. Nicholls I take it. Yeah. Thank you. It's not that urgent. In

22 fact, we can -- I think we ought to give this Ruez thing priority; in other

23 words, I wouldn't mind postponing the representations by Mr. Nicholls to

24 some time next week.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will take --

Page 1081

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And deal with this Ruez thing more --

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will take a good look, of course, at the Ruez

3 motion. We're naturally concerned that Ruez's testimony from Krstic and

4 Blagojevic has been well-known to everyone for years. Anyone that would

5 have gotten in would have seen his testimony and his style. And so,

6 getting the motion tonight is a bit daunting. I think, from what I've

7 seen, we can still respond tomorrow. And I understand we're all under a

8 tremendous amount of stress and strain to get started. So I think we can

9 start tomorrow, but let me take a good look at it.

10 I would request that in the future that we develop a rule of

11 some -- at least 30 days' notice before a challenge as significant as this,

12 unless the party making the motion has good cause for the delay. This time

13 it's hard to imagine what the cause is. Mr. Ruez's testimony has been out

14 for a long time. And perhaps to properly review this motion, you may need

15 to review the testimony, which may defeat the purpose of the motion. But -

16 - and I'm not suggesting anyone sit down and read all of Mr. Ruez's

17 testimony. So let me read the motion, and we'll see -- I think -- it may

18 be something as simple as if Mr. Ruez starts speculating or making

19 conclusions he shouldn't make, the appropriate objection should be made and

20 the Court can rule on it. But that may be too simple, and I know the Court

21 is concerned about what was brought up as am I, so we will be prepared to

22 talk about that tomorrow.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you so much for your pragmatic

24 approach, Mr. McCloskey. We will re-convene tomorrow at 2.15. First we

25 conclude with the testimony of Mr. Oric, then we'll fix a time-limit for

Page 1082

1 submissions on this Ruez motion and will follow-up with the testimony of

2 the next witness. All right. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of

5 August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.