1 Thursday, 21 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Pandurevic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam, and good morning to you.
10 I notice that the accused Pandurevic is not present. I'm informed
11 he had a dental appointment or appointment with a dentist and that he
12 should be brought back here at about 9.40.
13 Yes, Mr. Haynes.
14 MR. HAYNES: He's here represented by counsel. He's going to miss
15 a few minutes of evidence. We can talk to him about that in the break.
16 We are content the matter should proceed.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Haynes. If there are
18 problems with interpretation, let me know. Otherwise I see again
19 Mr. Bourgon is not here. Anything wrong with Mr. Bourgon or is he --
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have the interpretation. But basically he
22 is okay. He is working. And he should be back.
23 I see that there is Mr. Nicholls and Mr. McCloskey. Okay.
24 Let's -- any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, very briefly Your Honours. I wanted to
1 address you before the witness comes in. Good morning, first of all.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Nicholls.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if they are before you now but we've
4 passed out two booklets to each of you. Those have been shown to my
5 friends on the other side and there has been no objection. The first one
6 is a book of still images extracted from some of the video I plan to show
7 today. Those are from an exhibit, number 65 ter 1936, and the purpose of
8 that is to assist in following the video, who is who, who we'll see on the
9 video. I don't intend to show that to the witness. It's just that it
10 may, I thought, aid the Trial Chamber in following the videos. And the
11 second is a map book which, again, there has been no objection. I do not
12 plan to use the map book today.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's make this clear. This you are not
14 going to use with the witness, are you?
15 MR. NICHOLLS: No, I am not.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of these stills here.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: No. There is a possibility I will use some stills
18 with the witness but they are not labelled in any way.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's exactly what I was aiming at to make sure
20 that if you make use of this, that there are no indications corresponding
21 to the numbers that are shown against figures.
22 All right. Any comments from the Defence? I see here none, so
23 let's bring in Colonel Boering.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: PIETER BOERING [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel Boering, good morning to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. Today we will be proceeding with
5 your examination-in-chief. So I leave you in the very capable hands of
6 Mr. Nicholls.
7 Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
8 Q. Good morning, Colonel. First of all, I want to ask you just a
9 couple of follow-up questions from the last time we spoke here.
10 On page 1898, line 1 of the transcript last time, we were talking
11 about how when you went on patrol, shells which you -- which from the VRS
12 were landing about 50 metres away from your Mercedes. And you said: "I
13 assumed that this originated from VRS. Initially there had been a report
14 about -- from the UN interpreter Petar in Bratunac who indicated that it
15 was dangerous to regularly come in-bound as we were doing with vehicles.
16 So this was a warning to beware."
17 Could you please explain just a little bit more about how you took
18 this to be a warning and about what Petar told you?
19 A. I interpreted this as a clear warning, and I personally decided
20 that only in dire emergencies would I leave the camp, and I would not go
21 on patrols without good reason. I assumed that this message was sincere
22 and was a warning to beware.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us that Petar was an interpreter. Do
24 you recall his last name?
25 A. No. I don't know that, but I would certainly recognise him.
1 Q. And what ethnicity is Petar?
2 A. I didn't ask him explicitly, but he resided in Bratunac and had
3 extensive freedom of movement there and he seemed to be on good terms with
4 the local population, so I assume he was Serbian.
5 Q. And which organisation actually employed him as an interpreter?
6 A. He worked for the UN. Interpreters were deployed both in and
7 outside the enclave, that is to say UN interpreters, and this interpreter
8 was assigned to the Serbian side and was paid by the UN. So I assume he
9 was on the UN payroll.
10 Q. Thank you. And if I understand you correctly, he could travel
11 freely between the enclave and Bratunac where he lived?
12 A. He was not residing in the enclave. He resided somewhere in
13 Bratunac. So he certainly wasn't circulating about the enclave.
14 Q. I'm sorry, my question wasn't clear but I think you've answered it
16 Also last time you indicated at page 1899 of the transcript that
17 you did tell Momir Nikolic about the VRS shelling near your vehicle that
18 you've described again this morning. I forgot to ask you what his
19 response was when you -- when you told him about that shelling. Could you
20 tell us now?
21 A. I don't specifically remember his reaction. The only thing that
22 sticks vaguely in the back of my mind is that he indicated that this is
23 part of the game, you have to watch out and take care and don't get into
24 dangerous situations unnecessarily. And another time I was heading toward
25 Yellow Bridge for a discussion. I was told, "You have a few minutes to
1 leave, and if you don't head back toward the enclave we are going to have
2 to shoot you because you have no reason to be here anymore. This is part
3 of your instructions." And you could see that -- you could place his
4 reaction in that context.
5 Q. Who was it who said that to you? That if you didn't leave you
6 would be shot at.
7 A. One of the guards at Yellow Bridge, one of the VRS soldiers,
8 sometime in June. He was quite sincere. I knew the individual relatively
9 well, and he was somewhat uncomfortable too.
10 Q. Thank you. Now I want to move back to where we left off and you
11 had begun to describe events on the 10th of July when you said the
12 population began moving towards Potocari. Can you describe that journey
13 of the population and what you observed as the population moved from
14 Srebrenica to Potocari?
15 A. At the time, I was staying in the compound or the headquarters of
16 the Bravo company in Srebrenica. Occasionally, that is to say two or
17 three times, I walked -- I took a short walk through the city. It was
18 about a few hundred metres to the UN post. Also -- there was also a
19 postal station and I would get an impression of what was happening. There
20 was a general sentiment of panic. People didn't know what to do. It was
21 unsafe. The military leadership had the same feeling. Ramiz Becirevic
22 contacted us and asked us to guarantee his safety. Overall, I wasn't in
23 direct contact, but I was indirectly in contact with the MSF staff and the
24 hospital, and they said that the situation was becoming too dangerous for
25 them, and they asked whether we might be able to transport the injured in
1 the hospital toward Potocari.
2 So there was a general feeling that it was unsafe. They didn't
3 feel that the people in Srebrenica could protect them very well, and they
4 were -- they wondered whether they could go to the headquarters for -- in
5 search of safety, and they said perhaps we should head toward Potocari. I
6 think that that feeling spread, and it was instigated by the population or
7 the leadership. Whether it was the military, civilian authorities or by
8 DutchBat, I don't remember exactly who instigated it, but the people were
9 basically feeling as if they were hunted. That was my first impression.
10 Q. Did you make that journey to -- from Bravo company to Charlie
11 company in Potocari yourself?
12 A. Yes. At a certain point, when a considerable share of the Bravo
13 company was already travelling in vehicles, I got into a Mercedes and
14 drove in that direction down a narrow road filled with people, heading
15 toward Potocari, on foot, some were staggering along, some were carrying a
16 few bags. They were proceeding slowly along the road and to the left and
17 the right, and there were shots but not very -- not a very close range.
18 So they felt that the situation was unsafe. They would look around very
19 nervously and they would hear the shots and the general feeling was we
20 should go to Potocari.
21 Q. And by shots, do you mean shelling or what kind of shots does that
22 refer to? It says "shots" in the transcript.
23 A. I mean a combination of firearms, rifles, machine-guns, and
24 occasional shelling, of mortars, that was audible.
25 Q. If you could just remind us of the distance between Srebrenica and
1 Potocari, approximately?
2 A. I suppose about three or four kilometres.
3 Q. Now I'd like you, if you can, to describe the scene at Potocari
4 when you arrived, what you saw there, how many people you think gathered
5 around the compound in Potocari.
6 A. It was a huge mass of people. They were waiting there aimlessly.
7 On the road from Potocari towards Srebrenica, there is some old garages
8 with gates in front of them, and they opened the gates and people tried to
9 find a place to sit in the shade, if possible, because it was quite hot.
10 Here and there you would see a small well and people carrying water. If
11 you ask me how many people there were, a lot. I can't estimate the number
12 but certainly thousands, several thousand.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, if I could hear either from you or from
15 Colonel what an MSF is.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, he stated that on his first day of testimony,
17 Your Honours, that's Medecins Sans Frontieres, Doctors Without Borders, I
18 believe. But the witness could confirm that, perhaps.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's Medecins Sans
20 Frontieres, meaning Doctors Without Borders. And that was an organisation
21 supporting the hospital in the enclave and also running little health
22 clinics inside the enclave.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. Could you please describe for us briefly now what there was
25 available to provide for all these people in Potocari, whether there was
1 food available, how much, whether there was water available, how much, for
2 these thousands of people.
3 A. First, the people themselves had very limited amount of baggage
4 that they were carrying. Occasionally they would have a jug of water, a
5 tiny little bit of food, emergency rations that they could carry in their
6 hands. So they were able to provide limited supplies for themselves.
7 As far as what DutchBat could do for so many people, very little.
8 Our supplies were limited too. At a certain point, we assessed how much
9 we had. We figured out that this would last only a few days until we
10 could no longer provide for ourselves and the people, perhaps two or three
11 days. If we were to tap into our own supplies, they would be exhausted.
12 Q. You mentioned that DutchBat agreed to take some patients from MSF
13 to Potocari. Do you recall how many patients were brought to Potocari and
14 what -- whether -- what type of care was provided for them?
15 A. A number of -- the number of patients is something I haven't
16 witnessed myself. I assumed this to be in the tens, maybe a little bit
17 less than 100.
18 As to the care provided, there was a medical team, some surgeons.
19 They were present at the first aid post. And therefore, they would able
20 to provide first aid assistance, but they were very limited in the
21 additional care they could provide.
22 Q. And you talked about hearing shots of a variety of weapons in
23 Srebrenica. Once you were in Potocari, could you still hear shots of
24 shelling or other types of arms?
25 A. Yes, indeed. This could be heard. There was continuous fire with
1 short interruptions.
2 Q. Just so you could tell us, were you aware of any shells coming
3 anywhere near, near the UN compound in Potocari at this time?
4 A. I cannot recall this with precision.
5 Q. Okay. We've now described the situation leading up to 11th of
6 July. I'd like to talk now about what you did and where you went on the
7 11th of July. And first of all, did you attend a meeting that day?
8 A. Yes, I did. If here you mention a first meeting that took place
9 in Bratunac, then this was a meeting where Commander Karremans and the
10 Sergeant-Major Rave and myself attended, and yes, I did attend this
11 meeting. A number of Serbians were present, both military personnel and
12 civilian representatives.
13 Q. Where was this meeting held in Bratunac?
14 A. The meeting took place at the hotel bar I knew well, Fontana, the
15 Fontana Hotel in the city of Bratunac.
16 Q. How did this meeting come about? Who requested or arranged the
18 A. In the past, questions have been asked about this several times,
19 here in The Hague. I cannot recall exactly what my answer was then.
20 However, at the present time, I cannot precisely indicate whether the
21 initiative had come from the VRS or the DutchBat side. In any case, it
22 was a meeting where we arrived, where we were welcomed, and where we were
23 expected. People were expecting us in order to hold the meeting.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. And during the first meeting, we had to pass by VRS soldiers that
1 were marching towards the enclave and therefore the situation was not
2 completely safe. However, at the moments that we would be stopped by
3 these soldiers, we would be granted permission to travel on. There was
4 communication through walkie-talkies, and therefore I assumed that the
5 meeting had been set up and that they knew about the meeting.
6 Q. What time of day was the meeting? Let me put it this way: When
7 did you arrive at the Hotel Fontana?
8 A. That was in the course of the afternoon, maybe the early evening.
9 I cannot recall the precise time. I would have to look into my previous
11 Q. I think early evening -- I'm most interested in what you can
12 remember now.
13 Now, besides yourself, Commander Karremans and Sergeant-Major
14 Rave, did anybody else come from the DutchBat side?
15 A. Not in the delegation that travelled by car towards the meeting,
16 no. What I can recall is that at the Hotel Fontana, when one enters, I
17 noticed a number of Dutchmen in a room as you enter, to the right. They
18 were waiting. I then entered into the room and discovered that these were
19 some of the DutchBat troops that had been taken prisoner and that were
20 present there under guard.
21 Q. Okay. We'll talk about those DutchBat prisoners a little bit
23 As best as you remember, who was present at the meeting from the
24 VRS side, the military?
25 A. From the military side of the VRS were present General Mladic,
1 Colonel Jankovic, Major Momir Nikolic, and I also believe that General
2 Krstic was present. Petar the interpreter was present as well. I believe
3 that, as far as I could see, those were the main participants in the
4 meeting at that time.
5 Q. All right. Well, I'd like to now show you some video footage we
6 have of that meeting, that may, I imagine, help you remember the meeting
7 and then I'll ask you some questions.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe the number is 1992 for the first Hotel
9 Fontana meeting, and I'm actually going to try to stop it quite soon after
10 it starts for the witness to take a look at what we see.
11 May I sit down so that I can see the screen better?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could go a little bit further.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop, please.
17 Q. All right. Can you see the screen in front of you, Colonel?
18 A. [In English] Yes.
19 Q. Just going from left to right in the picture we see which is
20 00:37:00:5, can you tell us who we see, these five men, left to right?
21 A. General Mladic, Colonel Jankovic, Commander Karremans,
22 Sergeant-Major Rave, and we see a little bit of myself.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Maybe since it's been so short we could start it
25 again and now just watch the video.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. NICHOLLS:
3 Q. Sorry, could you tell us --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. Two things. First of all, with
5 reference to page 11, line 16, the witness identified General Mladic,
6 Colonel Jankovic, Commander Karremans, Sergeant-Major Rave and a little
7 bit of himself at still 36:36:4. And while the video was being shown, the
8 accused Pandurevic was admitted in the courtroom, roughly at 8 minutes
9 to 10.00.
10 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Colonel, if you could look at the screen, a man just entered the
13 screen. We are at 00:40:05.5. He's got his back to us. He's wearing a
14 striped shirt. Can you identify who that man is?
15 A. Yes. That is Petar, the UN interpreter.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. Sorry, where it stopped it's slightly blurry but we are at
20 01:14:43.7, General Mladic said, "Zile, come here," and then this man
21 comes in and has a toast with General Mladic. Do you know who the man is
22 who has come in the screen? He's in the forefront on the right of the
23 screen having a toast with General Mladic?
24 A. It's not clearly visible. That could be General Zivanovic but I
25 can't see clearly at this time.
1 Q. Thank you. We'll keep playing it and maybe later you'll see.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before we keep on playing, how much
3 longer --
4 MR. NICHOLLS: It's very nearly done, Your Honour, perhaps a
5 minute or two.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then let's finish it.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS: That is the end, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
10 We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. First question, Colonel: How did you feel during this meeting
16 that we've just watched?
17 A. I didn't feel like an equal. It was like I was threatened.
18 Q. Let me ask you -- well, what did you feel threatened with? Could
19 you explain to us a bit more what you mean you feel threatened, you felt
21 A. First, during the meeting, it wasn't possible to follow everything
22 because first of all the interpreter was standing closer to Colonel
23 Karremans than to me, and if you consider the situation, some of our own
24 soldiers had been taken prisoner and I met those and spoke with them
25 briefly. And then after that, I entered the meeting where Colonel
1 Karremans was talking to General Mladic, and I noticed that people were
2 being pushed into a corner and General Mladic was using threatening
3 language and was trying to impress them and threatening that if air
4 support were used again, then saying, "We can do as we please with you."
5 And the joke, "This needn't be your last cigarette" clearly sets the tone
6 that, "I'm in charge here." And that disregarding the situation of the
7 refugees that I had just left, who were -- we were unable to meet their
8 primary needs.
9 Q. Can you just describe now what you said in your last answer, you
10 noticed that people were being pushed into a corner? Who was pushing whom
11 and did you become involved in any physical pushing yourself?
12 A. Well, the -- from the VRS, the body-guard and some other soldiers
13 nearby were trying to drive Colonel Karremans into a corner, both
14 literally and metaphorically. And when I arrived a bit later I noticed
15 that and I tried to make some space.
16 Q. Now, that's not shown on the videotape of the meeting we've seen,
17 is it?
18 A. No. That's correct. Not everything was recorded.
19 Q. From what you -- from what we've seen, does the recording appear
20 to be a fair and accurate recording of the meeting, although not of all of
21 the meeting?
22 A. Yes. I think it does a reasonable job conveying the duration of
23 the meeting and the tenor of the discussion.
24 Q. We stopped on a slightly blurry frame before the break, and you
25 said that you thought, I don't have your exact words, but that the person
1 in the picture could have been General Zivanovic. Having seen a little
2 bit more of the video, are you able to say whether or not that person was
3 General Zivanovic, the one who comes in and has a toast with General
4 Mladic and then with the rest of the persons present?
5 A. The picture was too blurred for me. Whether it's Zivanovic or
6 Krstic, I would be guessing. So I'm not going to make any statements
7 about that.
8 Q. All right. You recalled in the beginning that Momir Nikolic was
9 present at this meeting but you didn't identify him on the video. Was he
10 off camera or was he -- do you -- best as you can, was he present at the
11 meeting, just not seen on the video?
12 A. As far as I remember, he would probably have been at the beginning
13 of the meeting, to receive us at the entrance, and perhaps he was present
14 when we entered. But other than that, he did not figure significantly in
15 this meeting.
16 Q. Were you able to see the film crew from where you were standing in
17 the meeting?
18 A. Yes. A film crew was walking around with a camera, and they held
19 the camera very close to the faces of the people being recorded. The
20 camera was very clearly present.
21 Q. And if you recall, how were they dressed? In civilian or military
22 clothing? The film crew.
23 A. Well, it's a very vague memory, but I suspect that it was a
24 combination. They certainly were wearing some civilian clothes.
25 Q. Now, in your testimony in the Krstic trial, over six years ago,
1 you mentioned another person from the VRS present at the meeting. Would
2 it help you remember who else might be there if I were to show you that
3 portion of your transcript?
4 A. I don't imagine it would do any harm.
5 Q. This is from page 1165 of the Krstic transcript. You were shown a
6 photograph which was Exhibit 28/5.1 in that trial, in the Prosecution, and
7 you said -- you were asked if you recognised the person in the photograph
8 and you said: "Yes, I do recognise that man. He was also during the
9 meeting there. He was busy with the transport and organisation to bring
10 out the Muslim people to Kladanj later on."
11 And this portion of the transcript concerned the first meeting.
12 You were then asked: "Do you know what he's called?"
13 And you answered: "Kosovic or something like that."
14 Just think about that for a minute, and I want to see if that
15 helps you to remember whether there was a VRS officer there with a name
16 that you said is "Kosovic or something like that"?
17 A. Yes, Kosoric, Kosovic is what I remember. A person -- I would
18 recognise him if I saw a picture of him now.
19 Q. All right. In --
20 A. I didn't see him on this video.
21 Q. I'm asking you from your memory now, do you remember this officer
22 being present at the first meeting, although he was not on the video we
23 just saw?
24 A. Yes. There were others present and especially if I review the
25 statement from a few years ago, I stand behind that.
1 Q. I'd like to now just jump out of order a bit and show a short
2 clip. This is from the third -- well, I won't say what it's from. It
3 says it on the screen. The third meeting at the Hotel Fontana and we'll
4 stop it quite soon.
5 [Videotape played]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the video starts playing at
8 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could play a little bit more.
9 JUDGE KWON: How about using this picture?
10 MR. NICHOLLS: We will get to that, Your Honour. There is a shot
11 I was thinking of that --
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop.
14 Q. All right. Can you tell me, if you recognise the man on the far
15 right in this picture facing towards us?
16 A. Yes. I see him. And that's the man we were talking about,
17 Mr. Kosovic or Kosoric or something like that, who was responsible for
18 transporting the refugees.
19 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that. I'm sorry. That's at
21 I'd like to know show you another brief video and see if you
22 recognise where it is and the people on the video. This is 65 ter number
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Do you recognise --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we need to put this in the
3 record. So the video that has been played starts at 1:01:41.37, and stops
4 at 01:42:42.7.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
6 Q. Were you able to recognise the men on that video?
7 A. There were some from DutchBat who, so to speak, were being held
8 prisoner by the VRS at that time.
9 Q. And could you recognise where they were being held from that, from
10 that video, the room? Did you recognise the room or where that video was
12 A. [In English] No. [Interpretation] It could have been recorded at
13 the Fontana in Bratunac but the rooms resemble each other a lot. It's
15 Q. And you described it but just to be clear, did you personally see
16 and talk to the hostages at the Hotel Fontana when you were there on the
17 11th of July?
18 A. Yes, I did, at the start of the first meeting, when I entered
19 one -- there was a room like that to my right.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already stated that, Mr. Nicholls.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to be sure, Your Honour, I'm sorry.
22 Q. All right. Now, what did you do after the first meeting, the long
23 meeting video we have watched?
24 A. We drove back to the camp at Potocari, and we tried to find a
25 representative of the population or of the military, and ultimately we
1 found a former teacher that I knew. We managed to find him among the
2 group of people, and he agreed to act as a spokesman for the population.
3 We involved him in preparing the next meeting, the same day, at
4 about 11.00.
5 Q. 11.00 at night or in the morning?
6 A. 11.00 at night.
7 Q. That's the same day as the first meeting, which we've already
8 watched the video of?
9 A. [In English] Yes. [Interpretation] That's correct.
10 Q. After the first meeting, did you discuss at all with Commander
11 Karremans how he felt after that meeting as well?
12 A. I imagine it was brief. He also wanted to report to his superiors
13 about how the meeting went and to prepare for the next conversation.
14 Q. Okay. I want to start talking now about your return to Bratunac
15 for the second meeting scheduled for 11.00 p.m. First of all, who from
16 DutchBat travelled to the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac for the second
18 A. It was Colonel Karremans, Nesib Mandic [phoen], not of DutchBat
19 but for the population, and myself.
20 Q. And Nesib Mandic, just to be clear, is that the name of the school
21 teacher you said that was selected to come back with you?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. How did you travel to Bratunac for the second meeting?
24 A. In my own Mercedes, and I believe that Mandic was with me.
25 Q. And were there any stops or incidents along the way to the Hotel
1 Fontana for the second meeting?
2 A. As far as I remember, we stopped at least once or twice on the
3 way. They checked who was in the car, and there was some threatening
4 sentiment about, "Who do you have with you? What are you doing here?" It
5 was difficult for me to understand them because I didn't have an
7 Q. Just to be clear, who is the "they" who checked out who was in the
9 A. They were Serb soldiers, or in any case, troops that had joined
10 the VRS in the offensive against the enclave.
11 Q. Now, when you arrived at the Hotel Fontana for the second meeting,
12 as best you can recall, who was there from the VRS side present at the
14 A. Yes. Mladic was certainly there; Nikolic at the start; and, well,
15 I believe General Krstic was present as well; Colonel Jankovic; and at
16 this time I don't remember who else was there.
17 Q. All right. Do you remember -- do you remember if there were any
18 civilians present at the meeting, other than Nesib Mandic who you brought
19 with you?
20 A. Yes. Two or three civilians were also present. They worked for
21 the police or the Bratunac authorities.
22 Q. I'll just say for the transcript it's Nesib Mandzic, not Mandic.
23 And just to be very clear, what was the ethnicity of Mr. Mandzic?
24 Was he a Serb or a Muslim?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That already emerges clear from your previous
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was Muslim.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Now, before we play the videotape, there is a strange loud noise
5 we hear in the background at some point. Can you tell us what that is so
6 I don't -- if you recall, so I don't have to stop it while we are at that
7 point while we are playing it?
8 A. Well, it was a sound that an animal might have been slaughtered.
9 It was a screeching.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: And I think we could play the video now. This is
12 65 ter number 1994, and I will stop it at several points to see if the
13 witness recognises people on the video.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. All right. Before it gets going too far, can you just tell us who
17 we see here, again from left to right, just sitting around the table?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And before he answers that question -- one moment,
19 Colonel, one moment. Pardon me. The video starts at 01:16:09.5. And the
20 question that has just been put to Colonel Boering refers to still at
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Thank you, if you could tell us who you recognise, not the man
24 standing up at the moment but just sitting around the table, left to right
25 as we look at the picture?
1 A. At the left you see Colonel Jankovic. To his right is the
2 interpreter, Petar. And then Lieutenant Colonel Karremans and you can see
3 half of Nesib Mandzic. And in the background, is General Mladic's
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we play the video?
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. I've asked Janet to stop the video at 01:19:05.2.
10 Colonel, do you recognise the man in this picture?
11 A. That's General Krstic.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed, the noise or the sound of what
13 allegedly is an animal starts at 01:18:05, right through 01:18:18.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
15 [Videotape played]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop.
17 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: There is no sound in our ear phones.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a problem that Mr. Lazarevic only is
20 encountering or are the rest of you? You all have the same problem? You
21 are okay? You're okay? You're not.
22 So we need to adjust this. Could it just be ...
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we all have the
24 problem because the accused need to hear the text in B/C/S in order to be
25 able to understand. So this is the problem.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely, Ms. Nikolic. This is why I said stop
2 and let's address this problem.
3 Starting with the accused, have you been able to follow? Could
4 you hear? But they didn't encounter the problem before when we had the
5 previous video. We didn't hear the same problem.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lazarevic, did you follow the English channel or
7 B/C/S channel?
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I was able to follow this on
9 B/C/S up until the moment when it stopped and then after that, the sound
10 just stopped and we heard nothing.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So as far as the accused, I recognise General
12 Miletic saying that he couldn't follow. General Gvero as well; Nikolic as
13 well; Pandurevic; Beara, no; and Popovic.
14 So we need to address this problem. I mean, the accused must be
15 in a position where they can sit and follow the conversation.
16 My apologies to you, Colonel Boering. We are trying to accelerate
17 the momentum as much as we can so that you can go home but when you try to
18 do that, you end up with problems.
19 Is a technician on his way?
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We can go back a few images or -- let's say, and
22 first we give it a try to see whether you are receiving the sound. If
23 not, we will proceed with interpretation, live interpretation, in other
24 words. Would that be acceptable to the various Defence teams? So
25 let's -- Mr. Nicholls, yes.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I think to do that it would be much better to make
2 transcripts available to the booths. We can do it for them, and I don't
3 have that many now. I would prefer if we can try to fix it so that --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: -- hear the voices.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That would be my first preference, too, because also
7 the intonation sometimes is important.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Exactly, Your Honour, I think to get the sense of
9 the meeting.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I know exactly what you mean. I've occupied your
11 place before.
12 So Madam Registrar, if you could kindly summon the technicians to
13 come and check?
14 In the meantime, can we play back a part of it and see whether
15 it's working now. If you could kindly also adjust because sometimes it's
16 just the wire that is attached to the socket that needs a little bit of
17 adjustment. Okay. We can start from there.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. A little bit silly, but just for the record who do we see on the
21 screen here at 01:21:21.3?
22 A. [In English] That's me.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Stop it again for a while but this is a better shot than before.
2 Who is the man we see on the screen at 01:21:36.6?
3 A. [Interpretation] It's Sergeant-Major Rave.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed. One moment.
5 I just want to confirm for the record that now you can follow the
6 video and that the sound is okay. Including the accused? Yes, I see
7 everyone nodding. I thank you.
8 Yes, please proceed.
9 [Videotape played]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the video was stopped at 01:42:31.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. I have the same question for you, Colonel.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you put the question, let's clear this from
14 my mind, Mr. Nicholls. The reason why I'm putting the question to Colonel
15 Boering is because previously you asked him whether what he saw on the
16 screen was a faithful representation of the actual meeting. That was the
17 first one. Now we have the second. I checked while this was going on,
18 whether there was any interpretation in Dutch. There was interpretation
19 in French but there was no interpretation in Dutch. I wouldn't imagine
20 that there were difficulties for the witness, for Colonel Boering, but I
21 just want a confirmation from him that he could follow completely the
22 entire video, both this one and the previous one.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. I will try to --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And the reason is that apparently he's chosen to --
25 not to follow the proceedings in English but in Dutch, and this was only
1 in Serbian and English.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. If you understood the President's concerns and question, Colonel,
4 were you able to follow the videos we have been watching in English? Is
5 your English good enough to understand what we have been listening to and
6 seeing on the subtitles?
7 A. Yes. I've been able to follow it completely in English. My
8 choice to prefer Dutch in the court proceedings was that this -- the fact
9 to speak in my native language helps me to refresh my memory.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you for that point.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls, and thank you
12 Colonel Boering.
13 MR. NICHOLLS:
14 Q. Now, Colonel, during this second meeting, how did you feel as you
15 sat there in the Hotel Fontana?
16 A. First, once again, there was the language problem, especially the
17 part where General Mladic spoke directly to Nesib Mandzic. I sat to the
18 left of Nesib Mandzic and next to Mandzic was Karremans and next to him
19 the interpreter, so I couldn't follow the part that was directly in the
20 local language. I did understand the general gist. A desperate
21 situation, in trying to -- trying to make clear that we wanted to leave
22 the enclave and that there were no prospects for better support.
23 Q. And during the portion of the meeting where there was that loud,
24 high-pitched kind of screaming sound that you said you thought was an
25 animal being killed, how did -- did you wonder what that was? How did
1 that make you feel?
2 A. It's threatening.
3 Q. The videotape we've seen, I know that you couldn't hear all of the
4 conversation between General Mladic and Mr. Mandzic during, as it
5 happened, but does the video appear to you to be an accurate and fair
6 recording of the meeting, as much of it as was captured on videotape?
7 A. Not all of the meeting was taped. But as far as I remember, the
8 highlights are visible in these shots.
9 Q. How much more of the meeting do you recall was there that we
10 haven't been able to see here today? And I can say if it helps that the
11 video clip we've seen is approximately 20 minutes, if that helps you.
12 A. Perhaps about ten minutes was not played.
13 Q. And if you remember, if you know, what did that ten minutes --
14 what was going on during those ten minutes, just generally?
15 A. That isn't rock solid in my memory at this time.
16 Q. All right. I want to ask you one more question that you may or
17 may not remember. Was this person you identified as a VRS officer Kosovic
18 or Kosoric, was he present at this meeting, the second meeting?
19 A. Yes, he was present.
20 Q. I'd like you to show a still from the meeting. This is 65 ter
21 number 0452. This is General Mladic asked that a sign -- somebody off
22 camera, he says, "Can you get that sign?" And then he says in the clip
23 we've seen, "Put it down in front of Nesib." And he says, "He got it
24 himself from the town hall." Do you recognise the still that's before
25 you? And sorry, let me say for the record it's 01038810 is the ERN
1 number. Do you recognise this picture?
2 A. Yes. I remember it being carried in and presented.
3 Q. In your mind, what was the effect of putting this broken part of
4 the sign from the town hall of Srebrenica down on the table in front of
5 the Muslim representative?
6 A. Of course, this is my personal interpretation, but it clearly
7 conveyed that you're no longer in charge in your city. We are in charge
8 now. And that message hit home.
9 Q. After the meeting was over, did the DutchBat members who were
10 there and Nesib Mandzic travel back to Potocari together?
11 A. I drove back with Nesib Mandzic in my car, and I believe that
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans drove back with Sergeant-Major Rave. We went
13 in two different cars.
14 Q. Can you tell me, as -- after the meeting, what was Nesib Mandzic's
15 demeanour? How was he feeling after the meeting?
16 A. He wondered whether going there had been the right thing. He was
17 worried whether he had taken the right position.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I am not receiving interpretation
20 of what you're saying, Mr. Krgovic. Could you repeat?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this line
22 of questioning because this is speculation. The witness is being asked to
23 say how someone else felt, but he also mentioned in the previous answer
24 that he did not have an interpreter when he was going back with Nesib
25 Mandzic, so what he's saying now then about that is pure speculation.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether it's speculation or not I have my doubts,
2 but I suppose you need to rephrase the series of questions starting with
3 the basic one whether he could at the time going back to the compound have
4 a conversation, an intelligible conversation with Mr. Mandzic, and then
5 the next one would be of course whether he discussed with Mr. Mandzic his
6 own feeling about, and then you can proceed from there. But the main
7 point raised by Mr. Krgovic is a valid one.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Were you able to communicate with Nesib Mandzic on the way back
10 from the meeting at all? And if you could, how could you do that?
11 A. Communication was limited, in English, or German. I don't
12 remember exactly anymore, but it was limited.
13 Q. And what I was asking you about --
14 A. But later, we were back at the compound in Potocari, and an
15 interpreter was present there, and then I was able to speak with him
16 briefly. So it was a combination of during the drive and upon arrival.
17 Q. What I was asking and I probably didn't ask it well, was in the
18 first question, based on just common sense, human experience, were you
19 able to see people and see how they looked to us, whether they look happy,
20 sad, tired, scared, how did he appear to you as another human being as you
21 drove back?
22 A. Frightened, insecure.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's clear this up. Did he specifically ask
25 him how he felt about the meeting? At least when he could have a
1 conversation with him.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, that's --
3 Q. Once you were back at Potocari and you were able to speak with
4 interpretation, did Mr. Mandzic tell you how he felt about -- how he had
5 felt during the meeting and how he felt about what had happened?
6 A. As far as I can remember, I spoke to him about that briefly, and
7 he expressed his feelings, "What should I do? I don't know how to
8 continue from here. I need more representatives to provide backup in the
9 meeting at 10.00, so I need more support as a representative."
10 So I remember that we spoke about it in those terms and then he
11 went off to look for an expansion to the delegation.
12 Q. I'd like to show you a document now. It's number 0531, a fax from
13 Commander Karremans. It should appear on your screen in a minute, in
15 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'm sorry, Your Honour, I should know this
16 again but I'm not sure how we get it, if the accused want to see it in
17 their language, if it can be brought up for them in B/C/S. There is a
18 translation we have provided.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to refer to specific parts?
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I am, and I can read out these parts in English and
21 it can be interpreted.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We can deal with it like that. You don't have a
23 B/C/S? They cannot. Okay. All right. So if you're going to refer to
24 any particular parts of this document, please explain what it is so that
25 the accused can have an interpretation in their language with a view to
1 knowing what document we are talking about, and if there are specific --
2 references to specific parts, please read the relevant part so that it can
3 be translated into B/C/S.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: I was able to find translation.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: They cannot. Okay.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, I thought we could do a split screen.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is something that should be arranged. I
10 mean, I can't understand why we, who don't need to see much the version in
11 Serbo-Croat of documents unless we are looking at signatures, which is not
12 the case here, can see it, and the accused, who have got a vested interest
13 in all this cannot. Do you have a hard copy of the document in B/C/S?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not sure that I do, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
15 We have it in --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But let's make it a practice that in such
17 cases at least you will have these documents readily available in hard
18 copy because we can put them on the ELMO and the accused will be able to
19 follow from the ELMO.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: My suggestion, Your Honour, would be I think we are
21 five minutes from the break. I'll bring in hard copies in B/C/S.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine, fine. Good idea. Perfect. I think a
23 combination of minds, that's what you get.
24 We'll have a break now. I take it you are going to finish today?
25 Is that correct?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: It will be close.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you now that you have practically heard the
3 almost -- the whole testimony of Colonel Boering, revise your
4 cross-examination estimates and communicate it to the court registrar and
5 to Mr. Nicholls so that more or less we can give an indication to Colonel
6 Boering when he can go home and when we can have the next witness. All
8 Thank you. 25 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I noticed that the problem that we referred to
12 before has been solved, and that it is now possible to see on the screen,
13 on the monitor, on the left-hand side the English version of the document,
14 and on the right-hand side its corresponding translation into B/C/S. So
15 that should prove helpful to the accused who can now definitely follow
16 better. I thank the staff for taking the initiative to get this done.
17 I've said it mainly for the record so that it's on the record that we can
18 see we both.
19 Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
21 Q. Colonel, are you able to read the document in English on the
22 screen in front of you or would you like me to give you a hard copy to
23 look at which I can show the Defence, if that is better for you?
24 A. We'd like a hard copy as well, please.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: If you could show this to counsel first, please.
1 Q. Now, please take a minute or as long as you need, read that entire
2 two-page document to yourself, Colonel, and then I'll ask you some
4 I'll say now for the record this has ERN numbers R0015489
5 through 5490.
6 I'll also ask you Colonel, while you're reading that, if you
7 recall that you saw this document when we first met last week?
8 A. I remember that. Yes. I've read both pages.
9 Q. Thank you. Excuse me. If we can go back to the first page,
11 Thank you. Sir, we can see that this is from the commanding
12 officer, DutchBat, compound Potocari, Srebrenica, in the top right-hand
13 corner. And we see a date in the top left-hand corner and time of 12 July
14 1995, 0335. And it is addressed to force Commander Janvier, commander BH
15 command, HQ UNPROFOR in Sarajevo, commander Sector North-East, the
16 Ministry of Defence here in The Hague and to -- something, I'm not
17 completely sure what this is, the Crisis Staff Den Haag, Den Haag here.
18 So, first of all, the second address it just says commander
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina command, Sarajevo. Who would receive this at that
20 command at this time, if you know? Who would be a commander?
21 A. There was a Dutch representative there, General Nikolai.
22 Q. Thank you. And we see that the subject is the meeting with
23 General Mladic on the 11th and 12th July 1995. I don't want to ask you
24 too much about the first page, which I think is fairly self-explanatory.
25 If we could go to the second page now, point 5. "There are more
1 than 15.000 people within one square kilometre, including the battalion,
2 in an extreme vulnerable position, the sitting duck position, not able to
3 defend these people at all. In direct line and above the compound, he
4 deployed two guns, two tanks, three MLRs and one AA gun, all in direct
5 sight. At this moment, I'm responsible for these people."
6 Could you comment on this section, first, as based on your
7 military experience whether you share the same assessment made by
8 Karremans or a different one, that would be my first question, that this
9 was a difficult position.
10 A. This description is accurate. With what we had, we could do
11 little against this type of armament and deployment. As said, that turns
12 you into a sitting duck.
13 Q. Could you tell us, please, what an MLR is, or an MLRS, what type
14 of weapon that is?
15 A. [In English] That's a multi-launch rocket system.
16 [Interpretation] It's an artillery type that fires multiple grenades that
17 spread shards very effectively across an area. Suppose you fire an MLRS
18 at civilians sitting in a field, you'll have a lot of casualties and
19 injured, if you do that.
20 Q. And if you know, what is an AA gun, as it's referred to in this
22 A. I assume this means an anti-aircraft, so against airplanes and
23 targets in the air. But you can also -- you can also shoot them at people
24 or vehicles. You can aim them directly as well.
25 Q. Moving down to point 6, it states: "I am not able, (a), to defend
1 these people."
2 And just your assessment, is that correct or incorrect? Was
3 DutchBat in a position to defend all these people crowded in the area of
4 the base?
5 A. It was impossible.
6 Q. Then point (b): "I am not able to defend my own battalion."
7 Is that correct or incorrect, in your assessment?
8 A. Yes, that's corresponding with the preceding statement.
9 Q. And now, if we look up the page, under the first full paragraph
10 there is subparagraph (b): "Next meeting on 12 July at 10.00, with
11 representation of the refugees and the former civil and military
13 Can you tell me now what, if anything, you did to prepare for that
14 next meeting at 10.00 a.m., which we also saw referenced on the video of
15 the last meeting on 11 July at night?
16 A. You mean the recording on 12 July at 10.00 or do you mean the
17 meeting in the evening? I've lost track.
18 Q. All right. Let me -- my fault. Let me ask that again. What did
19 you do, if anything, to prepare for the meeting which was scheduled for
20 the morning at 10.00 on 12 July?
21 A. I tried to establish contact with Tuzla and with UNHCR to state
22 our position. Besides that, I think we met briefly together with
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and Major Franken to discuss matters and
24 consider the opportunities. And at this point, I don't remember exactly
25 what else I did. I probably took a nap.
1 Q. Did you return to the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac on 12th July?
2 A. Yes. On 12 July, I was present at the third meeting as well.
3 Q. Who, as you remember, came from DutchBat? Which DutchBat
4 personnel went to the meeting?
5 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and myself were present from
7 Q. Do you remember who came as representatives of the Muslim
9 A. Ultimately there were three representatives. Again, Nesib
10 Mandzic, who has been mentioned before; a female representative, I believe
11 her name was Camila; and another representative of the male population. I
12 think his name was Husanovic [phoen] or something like that. At any rate,
13 there were three representatives, but none were military of the ABiH or
14 from the official civilian authorities.
15 Q. If you know, can you tell us why there weren't representatives
16 from the ABiH or the official civilian authorities?
17 A. The idea was that they were busy planning their flight or had
18 already fled. And representatives of the military leadership or the
19 civilian population were not -- in our view, they were not among the
20 refugees in Potocari, as far as we could ascertain via interpreters and
21 ourselves when we tried to determine that.
22 Q. Now, as best as you can recall, as you sit here today, who was
23 present at the meeting on 12th of July, representing -- or on the side of
24 the VRS?
25 A. Mladic, General Mladic was present; Colonel Jankovic; Major
1 Nikolic, Momir Nikolic; the interpreter Petar; and the person who was
2 responsible for removal at the transport, I don't remember exactly, I
3 think his name was Kosovic; somebody from the civilian authorities who was
4 responsible for screening the refugees. That's a preliminary list.
5 Q. Do you remember the names of these civilian authorities?
6 A. Not at this time, no.
7 Q. You said "responsible for screening the refugees." What does that
8 mean? What is screening the refugees?
9 A. The concerned individual was introduced by General Mladic as being
10 responsible for inspecting all male refugees for possible war crimes or
11 criminal behaviour.
12 Q. And how was this to be done? "Inspecting" is the word in the
13 transcript, "all the male refugees for possible war crimes or criminal
14 behaviour," this screening?
15 A. That was not clear during the third conversation, or during the
16 two previous conversations either. It came up in the third conversation
17 that this would be happening, but how and what age group and where the
18 inspections would take place, I don't remember that -- I don't remember
19 any elaboration on that subject.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to watch the video now, if we may, from
21 this meeting, what we have, and that is 65 ter number 1995.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop, please. If we could start it over go again
24 and stop it almost immediately, the people in front of the hotel.
25 [Videotape played]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the video starts at 1 minute -- 1
2 hour 42 minutes, 45.6 seconds, and is stopped for a question at 1:42:50.5.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Colonel, in the image we see, the counter stated by His Honour,
5 there were four men standing facing either sideways or towards the camera.
6 From left to right again, as we look at the screen, can you tell me who
7 you recognise on this picture?
8 A. [No interpretation].
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Having lived here --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this time, at the extreme left is
11 General Mladic, next to him is Colonel Jankovic, and then the
12 body-guard -- excuse me, Momir Nikolic appears.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Start that again.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I think it will be better.
17 Colonel, could you be kind enough to start all over again from the
18 left. The person at the extreme left is who?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Major Momir Nikolic. Next to him is
20 Colonel Jankovic. And as third in front of the door, General Mladic's
21 body-guard. And the man at the far right, I don't remember his name.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: We can play the video.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe we also have the same problem, no sound.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether there should be any sound
1 because there seems to be nothing happening there. Let's play it back
2 just a few screens and then forward again.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I can confirm that there should be sound, Your
4 Honour. As I recall, it's the whole -- the whole clip has sound but maybe
5 we should start at the beginning.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go back a few shots, a few seconds.
7 Yes, we can start from here.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So the video is stopped again for a question I take
11 it at 01:43:13.4.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. In you could tell us what you recognise in this still, Witness,
14 who these people are?
15 A. The woman in the foreground is the woman representative, Camila,
16 behind the man in the blue shirt; his name was something like Husanovic.
17 And to the right next to the car is Nesib Mandzic. And there is a soldier
18 on the left. I believe he's a Serb soldier.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
20 [Videotape played]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And the video is stopped once more at 01:44:55.6 for
22 a question.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, sir.
24 Q. Just the men we can see, the four men in this photo, I think I can
25 safely say in the foreground is General Mladic, you've identified. Who is
1 the man to his left, if you recall?
2 A. This is General Krstic.
3 Q. And just while we are here the other two?
4 A. It is the interpreter Petar and it is Commander Karremans.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
6 [Videotape played]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the video stopped again at 01:45:07.8 for the
8 next question.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. At the very end of the table on the far right there is a man with
11 his hand up by his chin with a moustache. Do you know -- can you identify
12 that person?
13 A. As I said before, the man responsible for the transport, transfer,
14 Mr. Kosovic or Kozovic [phoen], something like that.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
16 [Videotape played]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the video has stopped again at 01:50:07.4
18 for the next question.
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. Colonel, look at this still in front of you. Let me know if you
21 can recognise or tell us anything about the two men to the left of General
22 Mladic, the first one is wearing a camouflage shirt, smoking a cigarette,
23 and the person next to him is wearing a civilian shirt. Perhaps it's not
24 a camouflage shirt. The one with the beard smoking a cigarette and then
25 the one to the left.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: To the right of General Mladic. Actually, to the
2 left of the photo or of the still but to the right of General Mladic.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The man with the light-green shirt
5 without a cigarette is the man who was responsible for the screening. The
6 person with the cigarette sitting to his side is I believe somebody from
7 Bratunac itself, either from the local administration or linked to the
8 Bratunac police force.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. I take it from your answer you don't recall or maybe you never
11 knew, but you don't know their names?
12 A. As to their names, maybe they have been presented to me but I
13 didn't remember their names.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
15 [Videotape played]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, the video is stopped at 01:50:25.9 for the
17 next question.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
19 Q. As we are looking at the video still, the man sitting across the
20 table from you on the far right, not the civilian you've just talked
21 about, the man in the camouflage shirt with his hands crossed, can you
22 tell us what you remember about him, who he is?
23 A. No. I can remember neither his name nor his function, his
24 position, at this present moment in time.
25 Q. All right. The man sitting to his right looking left as we look
1 at the photo, the man wearing a suit jacket, do you remember him?
2 A. This person possibly also was part of the civil administration of
3 Bratunac or was with the police, but I can say nothing more specific about
4 this person.
5 Q. All right. And then finally the men, the last two men we see on
6 the left, one taking a drink, one who is looking down the table?
7 A. No. I know neither their names nor their positions. I do not
8 have this in my mind at the moment.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: We can play the video.
11 [Videotape played]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The video stops at 1 hour 52 minutes.
13 MR. NICHOLLS:
14 Q. Thank you, Colonel. The video clip we have seen is approximately
15 ten minutes. How long did this third meeting last in total?
16 A. I think it lasted half an hour.
17 Q. We were able to watch it but how did you feel during this meeting?
18 You've told us about the previous two. What were your feelings in this
20 A. I had the idea attempts were being made for finding a solution to
21 provide for the evacuation of the refugees. This was a positive aspect in
22 my feelings. However, there was unclarity as to the meaning of the
23 word "screening," something that we didn't see in the footage, was
24 something that concerned me. As you have seen, once or twice, people
25 stood up for reasons of internal communications about a certain situation.
1 This made the meeting quite nervous one.
2 In addition, very regularly caterpillar vehicles would drive by
3 the compound or the hotel. In the distance there also was the sound of
4 firing. So, in general, I wouldn't describe the situation as quiet or
6 Also the outcome of the meeting was not completely clear.
7 Q. Let me ask you a couple of follow-up questions.
8 You said people stood up for reasons of internal communications
9 about a certain situation. Can you describe that more? What was the
10 situation you're referring to? And who stood up?
11 A. One or two soldiers entered the meeting room from outside. They
12 made a rather tense impression and wanted to say something. Incidents
13 were taking place that needed immediate response, and for this reason,
14 General Krstic, for instance, was called out of the meeting. He in his
15 turn called other people out of the meeting. This was something I could
16 clearly observe.
17 Q. And can you explain what you mean when you said the outcome of the
18 meeting was not completely clear. Expand -- expound on that a little
20 A. There was one question, for instance, which was transport. This
21 matter still had to be dealt with. It wasn't clear whether the UN command
22 or somebody else would have to do this. The fuel matter was urgent as
23 well. Also the question of how the care for the civilian population would
24 have to be provided. So at least for me, these issues were not resolved
25 by clear agreement.
1 Q. What did you do after the meeting ended? Where did you go?
2 A. We returned to Potocari, together with Lieutenant-Colonel
3 Karremans, and there we shortly discussed the results of the meeting. We
4 looked at the agreements. Also Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and I had to
5 check the agreements because we hadn't been in the same position vis-a-vis
6 the interpreter, and therefore we wanted to make sure we had a clear
7 picture of what had been agreed upon.
8 Q. And did you have a clear picture after you had compared notes, as
9 I'll put it?
10 A. No. As to agreements, what had been agreed upon, what not, what
11 had been promised by General Mladic and what had not, was not completely
12 clear to myself, neither to Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, and he then
13 asked me to immediately drive back to Bratunac to check up, check on the
14 number of issues.
15 Q. And then tell us what you did.
16 A. I then drove back to Bratunac, to the Hotel Fontana and I
17 attempted to establish contact. After trying to find out some things, I
18 ran into Major Nikolic, who said that everything had been agreed upon,
19 that I should get lost, that there was no business of mine here, that
20 things had already started, and that I should leave immediately. He very
21 clearly was not at all appreciating my return.
22 I then drove back, and already saw that coaches were driving from
23 Bratunac into the direction of Potocari.
24 Q. And was there any other VRS officer, if you recall, with Momir
25 Nikolic when you saw him and he told you what you've just explained, to
1 get lost?
2 A. I believe that also the gentleman with the moustache responsible
3 for transport was present there as well.
4 Q. Is that the one you've referred to as Kosovic or Kosoric?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Two minutes to the end, Your Honour. It would be a
7 good time for me. I'm sorry I didn't finish today. I'll finish before
8 the next break tomorrow.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
10 Colonel, just to put you in the picture, you heard me before
11 asking the Defence teams to indicate approximately how much time they
12 require to go through the various seven cross-examinations. And I have
13 roughly an indication that it would take about eight hours. So you can
14 count on another three days of testimony. In other words, that's
15 tomorrow, and then Monday and on Tuesday, and hopefully we should finish
16 with you on Tuesday.
17 Thank you for understanding.
18 And we will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of
21 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.
11 Blank pages 1978 to 2005 inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between
12 the French and English transcripts (the English subtitles from the video
13 were not transcribed in the present document)