Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2845

1 Friday, 20 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you kindly

7 call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam.

11 All the accused are here. If there are problems with

12 interpretation, please let me know straight away. The situation as

13 regards Defence teams is exactly the same as it was yesterday, same with

14 Prosecution.

15 I take there are no preliminaries.

16 Lieutenant Colonel, good morning to you.

17 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We will do our utmost to finish with

19 your testimony today. Mr. Ostojic will conclude his cross-examination

20 within 15 minutes as he indicated yesterday or there about, probably

21 shorter time, in a shorter time, and then we will see about the rest.

22 Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you,

24 Mr. President.


Page 2846

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

2 Q. Good morning, Lieutenant Colonel Egbers. Sir, I'd like to cover a

3 couple points that we may have touched upon yesterday for further

4 clarification. First of all, if I can ask you, do you recall forming an

5 impression or being told that the Bosnian Serbs were questioning Bosnian

6 Muslims during the period from the 12th through the 17th of 1995, and when

7 I say "questioning" I mean interrogating.

8 A. You're asking me whether I was told or I've seen?

9 Q. Or you formed your own impression?

10 A. The only thing I saw was -- it was a table on the football field.

11 That's the only thing that could have pointed to a kind of interrogation.

12 Q. Okay. Can we switch -- quickly go to your debriefing with the

13 Royal Netherlands Army, and as we discussed yesterday that was 2D00022.

14 I'll direct your attention again to the 6th page of that document,

15 specifically paragraph number 5. And let me know, sir, when you've

16 received it on the ELMO or the e-court system?

17 A. Yes. Is that the handwritten report?

18 Q. I believe it's typewritten in Dutch by you and then it's

19 translated -- typed out -- I don't believe that that's the correct one.

20 But if I could read it into the record I think the witness will understand

21 given the time constraints. Sir, yesterday we spoke about - trying just

22 to refresh your recollection, I apologise for bringing it up again - the

23 word "fanatical BiH fighters." It was in that paragraph or that text, two

24 paragraphs above that that was in one paragraph above that, I'm sorry,

25 paragraph 6, you state, "Major Zoran told me that there was a large group

Page 2847

1 of BiH fighters in the area of KV," and then there is a series of

2 numbers.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Following that you write, "It appears from the questioning of

5 prisoners of war by the BSA that two groups of BiH fighters exist," and

6 then there is more text. I'm just focussing on that sentence. When you

7 state there, sir, that it appears from the questioning of prisoners of

8 war, did you formulate that impression or was that told to you by Mr.

9 Major Zoran Malinic?

10 A. Well, as I told you yesterday, paragraph 6, 7, and 8 were all told

11 by me by this Major Zoran and he was the one who said, "No, you can't

12 leave because there is something going on in the hills," and that's the

13 story he told me. And the story he told me was written down by me when I

14 entered the enclave again after being there for two days. So this was his

15 way of telling us, Stay here, we can't let you go.

16 Q. Did you independently verify whether or not the Bosnian Serbs were

17 interrogating or questioning captured Bosnian Muslims?

18 A. I haven't seen any interrogation of the Bosnian Muslims. The

19 thing he said to me was that he had the information and that's why we had

20 to stay there.

21 Q. Was that the extent of your discussion with him on this topic or

22 was there anything else that comes to mind as you sit here today?

23 A. There was no discussion with him at that day. He was just

24 explaining to me why he thought it wasn't safe for us to return back to

25 Bratunac and to the enclave and when I see -- when I written down KV --

Page 2848

1 the numbers, those are square kilometres on a map.

2 JUDGE KWON: Usher, 2D23 page 3.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't think he's referring to what's on right now.

4 It was a tight --

5 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we have it clear enough for the record

6 unless the court would like it on the e-court screen.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be better if we had it. Anyway,

8 let's proceed.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Switching topics quickly I'd like to focus on the 2000 interview

11 that you had with the OTP investigators. That would be 30th of April of

12 2000. Okay? That was immediately after your Krstic trial as we

13 established yesterday. Can you share with us how it is that you came back

14 to visit with two investigators here at the ICTY? Did they initiate the

15 call or did you call them?

16 A. Well, they initiated the call.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. So I was called to come here and to -- because they were

19 investigating this Colonel Beara.

20 Q. And who called you, sir, and what did they tell you during this

21 phone conversation?

22 A. I can't recall that, they just asked me to come.

23 Q. And it was a Sunday afternoon, I think you said, correct?

24 A. That's what I remember.

25 Q. How long was the meeting? I couldn't get that from the transcript

Page 2849

1 yesterday. I don't know that you answered and I apologise in advance if

2 you did.

3 A. Well, I don't know it couldn't be longer than an hour that I've

4 been here, including the coffee.

5 Q. Now, at that time, sir, did they give you your statement that

6 you'd previously given to the ICTY and the Office of the Prosecution?

7 A. I can't recall that but I don't know.

8 Q. Sir, were you shown at that April 30th, 2000, meeting with the

9 Office of the Prosecutor and her investigators whether -- were you shown a

10 photo album with various pictures in it?

11 A. That's not what I can recall, no.

12 Q. Were you shown any individual still or picture of someone who

13 purports to be Mr. Beara?

14 A. I can only recall that I have seen the video that they have shown

15 you yesterday.

16 Q. So it was limited to that one video, correct?

17 A. That's what I can recall, yes.

18 Q. And how many times did you have to watch that video before you

19 were convinced, as you say, that it was Mr. Beara in that video?

20 A. Well, I've seen it several times but you would like to emphasise

21 that I only recognised him the last time I saw the video but as you see

22 it's a very small -- short tape and it was a Sunday so I have tried to

23 watch it very accurate. That's why I saw it several times.

24 Q. Okay. Well how many is several to you, sir?

25 A. I thought it was in the statement as well and I think you're

Page 2850

1 referring to that, that it was seven or eight times.

2 Q. And after how many times did you confirm that it was Mr. Beara?

3 A. Well, there was no -- yesterday I've seen it twice and because

4 after -- it's a very short tape so I say, Well, let's see it again. Who

5 else is on the tape, so I didn't only seen the tape just to recognise

6 Colonel Beara.

7 Q. How long was that tape, do you remember?

8 A. Few minutes.

9 Q. I think the tape is 54 minutes in length, the entire tape. Did

10 the ICTY investigators ask you to look at this random tape and invite you,

11 sir, with the control to stop when, if at all, you might see Mr. Beara?

12 Is that the way it worked? Or in fact did they set it, sir, on the time

13 in which they suggested to you that that person in that parade or ceremony

14 may have been Mr. Beara? Which way did it work?

15 A. Well, there was a short video shown to me, like it was yesterday.

16 There was the exact video. It wasn't seven or eight times the 45 minutes.

17 That's all I can declare about that.

18 Q. Okay. Sir, let me switch topics quickly and back to Major Zoran

19 Malinic, if I may. When you were there for approximately two days during

20 your stay with Major Zoran Malinic, did he inform you, sir, that he could

21 not control the other military groups outside the school confines in Nova

22 Kasaba?

23 A. That's what he told me, yes.

24 Q. And did you independently verify that at all?

25 A. There was no way for me to verify the things he told me. He said,

Page 2851

1 "Well, we have to wait for my Colonel Beara because he's the one who can

2 guarantee your safety when you're going back to the enclave of

3 Srebrenica."

4 Q. Well, was Major Zoran able to guarantee your safety?

5 A. Well, he wasn't.

6 Q. And can you share with us, sir, how were you treated during those

7 two days in Nova Kasaba, the school that you mentioned on the 13th and

8 14th of July 1995?

9 A. Well, I was treated well. We were, of course, restricted in the

10 things we could do, the Major asked us, Well, okay, you can leave if you

11 want to so we left with three vehicles but we came back with only one, as

12 I declared two days ago. So the treatment was okay and I didn't have

13 the -- I didn't have the idea of being kept there with a gun on my head

14 but there were soldiers who were aiming their guns at us and we were not

15 free of course to go back and the story what he told me was that it was

16 for my own safety to be there but I had no possibility to go back as well.

17 Q. Well, wouldn't the independent verification be that you were not

18 restricted, you were able to leave, you sent three vehicles outside of the

19 school compound or outside of the school premises and you found out that

20 in fact it was confirmed what Major Zoran Malinic told you, he had no

21 control and it was not safe for you to leave that area? Isn't that

22 accurate?

23 A. Well, I don't know whether he had control about troops in the

24 nearance [phoen] of the school but the only thing I can tell you is that

25 we tried to go back, we were stopped by soldiers who had AK 47s pointed at

Page 2852

1 us, they still in their vehicles and we got back.

2 Q. Let me ask you this: What was your impression of Major Zoran?

3 Was he an honest individual or did he mislead you when he said that he had

4 no control of the troops outside of the premises of the school?

5 A. Well, he told me a story about Muslims killing each other in the

6 school in the nearance of the school being a threat to us. I don't think

7 that there was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, when

8 I look back at that time from this position. So if you ask me if he was

9 an honest man, do you want me to have a look at him the way I see him now?

10 Because I don't think that was completely honest.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please make longer pauses

12 between question and answer?


14 Q. Currently or at that time? That would be sufficient. If --

15 A. We got a message.

16 Q. I got it.

17 A. Was that a correct answer?

18 Q. It's not for me to decide. Okay, thank you, though, for checking

19 with me. Sir, who -- strike that.

20 Isn't it true that on the second day you requested that you and

21 your men be returned to Potocari and you requested it to Major Zoran

22 Malinic, correct?

23 A. I've made the first -- the first day, I complained about our cars

24 being stolen, our cars taken away from us. I've always during those two

25 days complained about it and I've always tried to manage to get back to

Page 2853

1 the compound, back to the headquarters of the UN. So it's the first and

2 the second day.

3 Q. So it was at your request, correct?

4 A. It was at my request that we went back.

5 Q. Okay. And also it was at your request that you unfortunately had

6 to leave the two Mercedes vehicles behind, correct? It was your decision?

7 A. The two lost Mercedes were my decision yes.

8 Q. It was also your decision to have the Bosnian Serbs who were at

9 that school escort you in their vehicle, correct?

10 A. That's not correct because this Major Zoran, he arranged my

11 returning.

12 Q. Well --

13 A. I didn't ask him to bring me with his BOVs.

14 Q. Didn't you prefer it, though?

15 A. I'd rather go back with my own vehicles and my own soldiers

16 towards the compound. That was what I preferred.

17 Q. Okay. So you did not prefer it, right?

18 A. No. There was no opportunity for me to decide whether to go back

19 with my own -- with own cars, with my own troops to the compound. It

20 was -- because of the all the cars that we used were stolen at that time

21 so it was my -- it was my -- I went with this BOV towards the compound but

22 it wasn't the ideal situation, of course, leaving two cars behind.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. I direct your attention to your first

24 statement, the 24th of October 1995, to the ICTY, page 7 for the Court and

25 my learned colleague, towards the lower portion, and I'll read the

Page 2854

1 paragraph and I hope we will come on the ELMO. It's 2D00019 or on the

2 e-court. "In the evening I requested to be taken back to Potocari in one

3 of the Bosnian Serbs' armoured vehicles." We talked about that, right?

4 A. I'll read it with you.

5 Q. Okay. Page 7. Thank you. Towards the lower portion, second to

6 the bottom paragraph. This is your statement, sir, from the 24th of

7 October 1995, several months after the events that we are discussing here

8 today, "In the evening I requested to be taken back to Potocari in one of

9 the Bosnian Serbian armoured vehicle. I preferred to be driven by them

10 than to drive one of our own vehicles because our safety would thus be

11 ensured." Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that also inaccurate, sir?

14 A. Well.

15 Q. Perhaps your memory is what's somewhat skewed?

16 A. Well, you asked me -- you just asked me whether it was my decision

17 to take the BOV but it was -- were, of course, the circumstances that made

18 me no other possibility to get into the BOVs. So when it was safe for us

19 to drive, when nobody should steal the vehicles the UN used, when there

20 were no Bosnian Serbs in blue, with blue helmets in white APCs on the

21 road, it would have been safe for us to go back but we didn't have any

22 choice. I made a decision to leave two Mercedes behind and the only thing

23 we could do is get a ride back to the enclave.

24 Q. I think I understand. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. Now, sir,

25 going back to formulating your impression that Mr. Beara was the commander

Page 2855

1 of Major Zoran Malinic, that was really your impression, isn't that true?

2 A. That's what he told me. He said there is --

3 Q. Who is he -- I'm sorry to interrupt.

4 A. The Major told me that he had no control of the troops who were in

5 the neighbour, on the route towards Nova Kasaba and towards Bratunac.

6 Q. So looking at your 30th of April 2000 statement, sir, you don't

7 mention that fact anywhere. The only fact that you mention in that

8 statement is that it was "your impression that he was the commander of

9 Major Zoran." Can we please have that put on the e-court for the

10 Lieutenant Colonel, 2D00021 specifically the second paragraph, and last

11 sentence in that paragraph. With the Court's permission, of course. We

12 will just read it in again, Lieutenant Colonel, second paragraph, last

13 sentence, "He introduced himself as Colonel Beara and my impression was

14 that he was the commander of Major Zoran." Do you see that?

15 A. I see that, yes.

16 Q. Is that inaccurate or accurate?

17 A. Well, I want to explain that if you let me. When I was at the

18 school, I'd never ever heard of Colonel Beara, his existence. I was there

19 and the interpreter and Major Zoran Malinic, they told me about the

20 Colonel Beara who was the man who could decide about our safety. So the

21 only thing I could see at that time that when he get to us, I gave him the

22 note, typed in Serbo-Croatian, he took the note to Major Zoran, and that's

23 the only thing that I could -- that I've seen as being the commander of.

24 But I don't know -- I didn't verify, I didn't ask him for his passport. I

25 didn't -- that's the only thing that I based it on.

Page 2856

1 Q. Now, sir, going back to this tape that was shown to you --

2 JUDGE KWON: If you'll excuse me, Mr. Ostojic.

3 Can I ask one thing, Mr. Egbers? The fact that Major Zoran

4 Malinic did not have any control over the troops on the route does not

5 necessarily mean that Colonel Beara was a commander to command of Zoran

6 Malinic, would you agree with this?

7 THE WITNESS: I certainly do agree with you. He told me, this

8 Major Zoran told me that he wasn't in control of the troops and that he

9 had to contact Colonel Beara to get a safe, to get me in safety back to

10 the compound, but I don't know whether Colonel Beara was the commander of

11 the -- of this major. I only know that he visited this Major at the day

12 that I was present there and that I saw him entering the school

13 complaining the things this -- that we discussed yesterday.

14 JUDGE KWON: It might mean on the contrary that Colonel Beara was

15 not the commander of Zoran Malinic.

16 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that we can be informed about that but my

17 impression at that time was that there was a relationship between Colonel

18 Beara and Major Zoran Malinic and that that's it.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

21 Q. Just a couple more minutes, Your Honour. Isn't it true though

22 that it was Major Zoran who arranged for you to be returned and that was

23 arranged several hours after Mr. Beara left the school or purportedly left

24 the school?

25 A. That's true.

Page 2857

1 Q. Let me ask you this again about the tapes that the investigators

2 from the Office of the Prosecution showed you: Isn't it also a fact, sir,

3 that they told me before playing the tape, they said, We believe we have

4 Colonel Beara on this tape, can you watch it and verify it for us?

5 A. No. It didn't happen that way.

6 Q. Tell me how it happened.

7 A. I had to look at it and have to tell them what I saw.

8 Q. Well, they told you prior to that that they were investigating

9 Mr. Beara, right?

10 A. I was sure that it had to be this Colonel Beara because I thought

11 about it before, at the -- but they didn't ask me, this is Colonel Beara,

12 do you recognise him? They showed me the tape.

13 Q. How do you know they weren't investigating and wanted you to find

14 in that 54-minute tape Major Zoran Malinic?

15 A. That could have been possible as well.

16 Q. And they showed you that six- to ten-second tape, correct?

17 A. I'll read it because six to ten, I don't know whether it's six to

18 ten seconds.

19 Q. The same sequence or the same amount of tape that we saw

20 yesterday, that's what you looked at basically, correct?

21 A. I saw the ceremony as I described. It's only the ceremony though

22 shown me.

23 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel, and good luck.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: And thank, Your Honours, that's all I have.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ostojic, I think I should have asked you much

Page 2858

1 earlier but can I ask if it is your case that Colonel Beara was not

2 there?

3 MR. OSTOJIC: That is correct, Your Honour, and I believe that

4 through evidence that hopefully you'll see that we'll verify that.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 Who is next? Ms. Condon? Can I have an update on how long do you

8 expect to take, Ms. Condon?

9 MS. CONDON: Ten to 20 minutes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Bourgon?

11 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President, approximately one half

12 hour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Mr. Lazarevic?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe 20 minutes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kirgvic or Mr. Josse?

17 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to go before.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. It's not a question of order, it's a

19 question of length of time.

20 MR. JOSSE: 20 minutes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 minutes.

22 Madam Fauveau?

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] 45 minutes, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes?

25 MR. HAYNES: It's always difficult to know but at the moment I'd

Page 2859

1 have said 30 minutes but it will get shorter as time goes by.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right so we can still make it. We can

3 still make it. Yes. Next is Ms. Condon. Go ahead.

4 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Condon:

6 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, I want to take you back to your evidence about

7 the relationship between DutchBat and members of the 28th Division.

8 A. I don't know what you mean by the 28th Division.

9 Q. All right. Well, the 28th Division of the Bosnian Muslim army

10 that was present in the enclave at the time you were there. You agree

11 with that?

12 A. I never heard about a 28th Division, I'm sorry.

13 Q. But you were aware that there were members of the Bosnian Muslim

14 army in the Srebrenica enclave?

15 A. What I saw was Naser Oric, who was in charge of some men who

16 were -- who were there and who seemed to be armed. I don't know whether

17 that's the 28th Division, you're telling about.

18 Q. Yes. Tell me, it was the case, was it not, that the relationship

19 between DutchBat and these men who were armed became quite troubled in

20 spring?

21 A. It did.

22 Q. It did, didn't it? And your observation posts were robbed by

23 these men that were armed? You had those problems, didn't you?

24 A. There were no observation posts robbed by armed men. I don't know

25 what time are you referring to?

Page 2860

1 Q. In spring of 1995.

2 A. In the spring. I don't have a recollection OP Alpha observation

3 post Alpha being robbed by these men.

4 Q. What about the observation posts generally? Did you hear of that?

5 Were there reports of that?

6 A. In the spring time, I can't recollect that.

7 Q. No?

8 A. I'm sorry.

9 Q. All right. What about the times when you were reduced to doing

10 your foot -- your patrols on foot because of the lack of fuel?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Obviously that inevitably you're in a very vulnerable position

13 because you're on foot rather than in your APCs, yes?

14 A. We are, yes.

15 Q. You agree with that? Now, you, yourself, you had a perception

16 that at the times that that was going on you why subject to sniper fire

17 from these Muslims who were armed in the enclave. Sorry, you have to

18 actually say "yes" rather than just nod.

19 A. I just wait for them to type so I can read it here. It's right

20 that there have been sniper fire by probably the Muslims towards DutchBat,

21 if that's what you're referring to.

22 Q. That's what I'm getting at, yes. And your theory was -- well,

23 before I get to that, naturally, you confronted the people that you

24 perceived were responsible for this, didn't you?

25 A. Well, if DutchBat is, if my patrol is shot at we will return fire

Page 2861

1 or we ask F-16s to support us and the complaining --

2 Q. I'll just interrupt you. That's before this. This is prior to

3 any issue of close air support. We will get to that. But just this is at

4 the time that I'm talking about in the spring when the relationship starts

5 to deteriorate between DutchBat and the armed Muslims in the enclave,

6 right?

7 A. What is your exact question.

8 Q. That you confronted these people who you perceived were sniping at

9 you, didn't you?

10 A. No, we talked about -- we talked with the Muslims in the enclave

11 of course but there was no -- there wasn't always exactly the location

12 where we were shot at so is it in one of my statements that you're

13 referring to?

14 Q. That the issue of you confronting people?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. No. This is you were -- you're aware of a book written by David

17 Lloyd [phoen]?

18 A. I am, yes.

19 Q. Did you speak to him for that book?

20 A. I spoke to him, yes.

21 Q. So tell me about what your theory was in relation to the Muslims

22 sniping at you. Why did you think they were doing that?

23 A. Well, I'm sure that we were shot by several Muslims during those

24 days that we were there. They would fire at us from the nearance of

25 the -- let's say the border of the enclave, so that we thought it would be

Page 2862

1 the BSA firing at us and we would return fire to the BSA. That's a theory.

2 Q. As to why they were firing at you?

3 A. As to why they were firing.

4 Q. Now, I just wants to take you to your perception of a soldier, a

5 Muslim soldier. Now, you would agree, would you not, that uniforms

6 weren't always a particularly good indication as to whether or not an

7 able-bodied man in the enclave was an armed -- was a member of the armed

8 unit that was operating in the enclave, whether or not it was the 28th

9 Division or not, you don't know, but you agree with that: Uniforms

10 weren't a good indication?

11 A. Well, there were very -- there were just a few uniforms worn by

12 Muslims during the fall of the enclave.

13 Q. Yes. But what I'm getting at is that it would not be unusual to

14 see a civilian -- a man who was dressed in civilian clothing armed and in

15 the enclave?

16 A. I only saw these men armed during the fall of the enclave.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. It was in July 1995.

19 Q. And they could be armed but not wearing a uniform, you agree with

20 that?

21 A. I do agree with that.

22 Q. You agree with that? Okay. So and incidentally it was your

23 perception, was it not, that in May, that the -- the Muslim -- the Muslims

24 who were armed were in fact flaunting the fact that they had new weapons

25 around that time; is that correct?

Page 2863

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Yes? Now, your evidence in relation to your observations on the

3 12th of July, and I appreciate I'm jumping around a bit here, but the 12th

4 of July, when you were escorting the first convoy, you saw men on the

5 soccer field, this is the first time you see men on the soccer field and

6 your evidence was here in this Court that they appeared to you to be

7 civilian from the way they were dressed. You accept that?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Yeah. However, in your debriefing.

10 MS. CONDON: Perhaps if the witness could be shown 2D24, Your

11 Honour? At page 2.

12 Q. Now, just at the bottom of that document, perhaps if we could

13 scroll down, you say, just, Lieutenant Colonel, do you see where it

14 begins, he saw a great many Serbian fighters on the way?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you see that paragraph?

17 A. I see that.

18 Q. And then you'll see further down, the sentence that begins, "On

19 the way, he saw a football field with hundreds of Muslim prisoners of war

20 in it." You see that?

21 A. I can see that.

22 Q. Okay. Now that's the same observation in so far as the first time

23 you're travelling towards Nova Kasaba and you see the men on the soccer

24 field; is that correct? That's the same time?

25 A. Yes. Only I used --

Page 2864

1 Q. It's all right. I just want -- I'm not asking you for an

2 explanation. I'm just -- that's the same time period.

3 A. Well, when you --

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour. I wish she would allow

5 the witness to explain his answer. I think he should always have the

6 right to it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You're perfectly right.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise for entering.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Condon, please.

10 MS. CONDON: Yes, Your Honour.

11 THE WITNESS: I used the word prisoner of war and as I did

12 yesterday, considering it wasn't the right term to use. Because I was --

13 I was then and I'm still a soldier who was thinking in terms of war and

14 prisoners of war. This -- these men were not armed, not armed at that

15 time. I've never heard a shot coming from the direction of the enclave.

16 Those men who were on the football field were civilians to me and I

17 described them as prisoners of war so I'm sure that you're referring to

18 that.


20 Q. I am and your evidence was exactly in the same terms as you've

21 just given it now yesterday that you said that -- you say, "I used the

22 words POW, I thought those Muslim men had been approached as prisoners of

23 war but of course they were just men who were captured and detained."

24 That's what you said yesterday which is exactly what you said today, so

25 there was no war. So what you say now is that in your mind, the context

Page 2865

1 is different?

2 A. Well, you're asking me 11 years later.

3 Q. Yes. But that's -- what I'm getting at is that at the time that

4 was the expression you used. Yes? You remember that?

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. And now, retrospectively, your perception is different, you agree

7 with that?

8 A. When I filled in all the forms, I was filling in a form describing

9 a war zone. That was in my mind at the time.

10 Q. M'hm?

11 A. Yes. And I didn't make a difference between armed fighters who

12 were in uniforms and civilians without uniforms.

13 Q. All right. Okay. Now, Your Honour, I may need the assistance of

14 Madam Usher with this document to be placed on the ELMO. This is an

15 attachment to Mr. Egbers's Dutch, original Dutch statement. There's three

16 sketches that were attached to that that had not previously been disclosed

17 to the Defence and I would seek --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You raised this yesterday and I invited you to have

19 a short tete-a-tete with Mr. McCloskey or Ms. Soljan on this. Have you

20 sorted it out?

21 MS. CONDON: I intend to use the document.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just inquiring whether you have sorted it out.

23 Okay, you may make full use of these sketches any way.

24 MS. CONDON: All right.

25 Q. Now, I apologise, I have marked the document, Your Honour, so the

Page 2866

1 original should really be put up there, if the Prosecution can assist me

2 in that regard. Thanks.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before. What markings did you put on?

4 MS. CONDON: Just my highlighting. I prefer the witness not --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay, it's okay. No words or comments?


7 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it exist on e-court? It doesn't?

8 MS. CONDON: That's it, Your Honour. Just for the record, this

9 is -- the document is 00353526.

10 Q. I'll just gets to you identify this, Mr. Egbers. This is

11 familiar? This has your signature -- perhaps if we could go down to the

12 bottom of the document, Madam Usher, just -- is that your signature?

13 A. It is my signature but it's not my handwriting so it's not my

14 drawing.

15 Q. I just wanted to ask you if it's your signature.

16 A. That's my signature.

17 Q. All right. Now, in the course of you -- your Dutch statement

18 having been taken there were in fact a number of three attachments of this

19 nature to your original statement, were there not; is that correct?

20 A. I haven't seen my statement but I'm sure that this is correct.

21 Q. Yes. And this document that we see here is the result of you

22 outlining events that are contained within your statement; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Well, it is an impression of it. The football field isn't drawn

25 right because it's not on that side, I don't know whether you're facing

Page 2867

1 there because that's not correct.

2 Q. All right. But there is a football field that is identified here

3 and there is a road that -- it appears on the left-hand side of that that

4 says -- with an arrow, with Mercedes, you see that there?

5 A. I see that, yes.

6 Q. Yeah? And what -- and then there is bus with refugees, ahead of

7 Mercedes. Is that arrow with the Mercedes, is that you indicating your

8 position?

9 A. That's me, yes.

10 Q. Escorting the convoy?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that right? So that's certainly correct in so far as the

13 narrative that you were providing to the person who drew this document?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Yeah because you didn't draw it yourself?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. All right. But you were indicating to the person who was drawing

18 the narrative that's reflected; is that correct?

19 A. I told her -- I thought it was a her -- that I drove by a football

20 field, that there were Muslims on their knees, that there were civilians.

21 Q. And uniforms?

22 A. And uniforms as well, yes.

23 Q. So that's correct in so far as it says civilians in uniforms, that

24 is -- that's what you saw, people in uniforms?

25 A. Yes but the people in uniforms were of course not the ones who

Page 2868

1 were on their knees. The men who were on their knees with hands on their

2 neck were Muslims and the uniforms were just standing -- were from the

3 BSA.

4 Q. All right?

5 A. You could read it like they were men in uniforms on their knees

6 with hands on their neck.

7 Q. But you shouldn't read it like that?

8 A. But I haven't seen it like that so this is not correct.

9 Q. Not accurate. But you signed it?

10 A. I signed it, yes.

11 Q. You signed it, all right. Now, I want to take you to -- thank

12 you, Madam Usher. Thank you.

13 I want to take you to your evidence in relation to the blocking

14 position that you took up at Bravo 1. Now, I appreciate my learned

15 friend's already asked you some questions about this but I just want to

16 take you to the 9th of July, right? Is that the first time you arrive at

17 the blocking position or not?

18 A. I was there at 8th of July in the evening.

19 Q. All right. So that the day of the 9th is your first day at the

20 blocking position; is that correct?

21 A. My first sunrise there, yes.

22 Q. And the 9th is the day that coincides with the discovery of the

23 M-48 artillery gun; is that right?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And that is, I think you said in your evidence, 30 to 40 metres

Page 2869

1 away from your position; is that correct? Is that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Yeah.

4 A. I'm trying to get a pause.

5 Q. All right. Sorry. I'll slow down.

6 The next day, being the 10th, Captain Hageman, he's the commander,

7 is he not, of all the -- all four blocking positions; is that right?

8 A. I was on the command of Captain Groen and Captain Hageman was in

9 an APC on the market. So I don't know whether he was in command of all

10 the blocking position but I had contact with Captain Groen.

11 Q. So you had no knowledge of, on the 10th of July, any incident with

12 Captain Hageman's APC being -- going off the road as a result of a hand

13 grenade being thrown at -- by Muslim fighters, you don't know anything

14 about that?

15 A. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't there.

16 Q. All right. All right. So back to your position on the 10th of

17 July. Is it around the first time you're attacked on the 10th of July at

18 Bravo 1, just so that I understand how many times you come under fire on

19 the 10th of July, is it around what time of day, the first time you're

20 attacked?

21 A. It was in the morning but if you want to know exactly I've got

22 to --

23 Q. That's all right. You can't tell me. That's all right. And you

24 had up there with you two forward air controllers; is that right?

25 A. At that time, there were English SAS colleagues at my -- with me,

Page 2870

1 and I don't know whether they had the opportunity to forward air control

2 from that site but we had to have Dutch forward air controllers at my

3 position.

4 Q. So you had two Dutch forward air controllers?

5 A. At that time, I asked for one Dutch forward air controller to come

6 to my position.

7 Q. So he was there?

8 A. I don't know whether it was in the morning that he was there but

9 he came from.

10 Q. At some stage?

11 A. From Potocari.

12 Q. All right. Now the significance of having the forward air

13 controllers, there is obviously for the link in terms of calling in closed

14 air support, isn't that --

15 A. Or air strikes, but they are the ones, they have to contact the

16 planes.

17 Q. Now, after the attack, this first attack, you contacted or via

18 another person, you contacted Captain Groen, didn't you?

19 A. I'm sure I contacted him every ten minutes.

20 Q. M'hm. And he wanted to know from you, did he not, well, where was

21 the source of the fire coming from?

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. Obvious question, yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yeah. And you weren't sure, were you? You weren't 100 per cent

Page 2871

1 sure?

2 A. I was sure it was Bosnian Serb fire coming from a tank but I

3 wasn't sure whether they were firing at me at the time or at the piece of

4 artillery that was 40 metres nearby. That's why I asked the Bosnian

5 Muslims not to fire the gun and I couldn't be 100 per cent sure that they

6 were firing at me because I wasn't hit at that time. There were shrapnels

7 going through the APC and I had a light injury but I wasn't 100 per cent

8 sure at that time, no.

9 Q. That you were the target; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Now, you've indicated that you'd asked the Muslim -- was there a

12 commander there in the artillery -- how many soldiers did you see around

13 the artillery piece?

14 A. Eight to ten soldiers.

15 Q. Sorry?

16 A. Eight to ten.

17 Q. And they were all armed, I presume?

18 A. Not all.

19 Q. Not all? So you spoke to the commander or someone who appeared to

20 be in charge around the artillery piece and you said well, don't fire it

21 while we are in the area, yes?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. He gave you an undertaking that that would happen, did he?

24 A. He wrote a note, and the road was taken by a courier to his

25 commander. But it was never fired.

Page 2872

1 Q. All right. As far as you're aware, as far as you're aware?

2 A. When I was there.

3 Q. Yeah. But tell me, because I obviously wouldn't know, is an M-48,

4 is that something that can destroy a tank? Is it capable of that?

5 A. I wouldn't know.

6 Q. You wouldn't know?

7 A. I would be guessing like you. That wouldn't be proper.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. Would you like me to guess?

10 Q. No, please don't.

11 MS. CONDON: You could -- the witness can be shown 2D23, please,

12 Your Honour.

13 Q. This is one of your debriefing statements, Mr. Egbers, if I could

14 just take to you paragraph 3 of that document, you see that there? The

15 heading, did the BiH do anything to stop the BSA attack. Do you see that

16 there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It says, "Yes, observation of artillery in the area of my

19 observation post, B1," so that's Bravo 1?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "BiH patrol in the direction of BSA tank eliminated." What did

22 that mean?

23 A. Well, can I explain to you what I meant?

24 Q. M'hm.

25 A. Because there was a group of Muslims who went through Bravo 1 and

Page 2873

1 said we'll try to go to the south and try to eliminate the tank. That's

2 what they intended to do but it wasn't by firing this piece of artillery.

3 Q. Even though it says there it seems to be a foregone conclusion

4 there that a tank was eliminated but that's wrong?

5 A. Well --

6 Q. If that's wrong, that's fine.

7 A. Well, I can't be sure that they really succeeded. They told me

8 that they did. That's what they told me but I had no vision of it so

9 you'd better ask the BSA whether it's true or not.

10 Q. Now, I want to take you to later on in the day of the 10th of

11 July. Just so I understand the sequence of events is it that again on the

12 afternoon of the 10th of July, you were fired upon when you were heading

13 back to -- is that correct, back to base?

14 A. When I was on the 10th of July I was fired upon by the BSA by a

15 tank and when I drove towards the market place, there was some AK 47 fire

16 from a Muslim fighter.

17 Q. All right. And when you got back to base, you indicated in one of

18 your debriefing statements that the Muslims had looted the UNHCR

19 warehouse. I can show you where you said that but you accept that that's

20 true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, with -- when you say the UNHCR warehouse, can you be a little

23 bit more specific at all about what building that was in the town of

24 Srebrenica?

25 A. That was a building on the market place in Srebrenica, and when I

Page 2874

1 saw that night that there was -- there were people coming in and they were

2 carrying goods out that's strange of course in a war zone.

3 Q. Well, strange as well also because no doubt you would have

4 observed in your six months period there that while there were goods

5 supposedly -- there were goods coming in through the UNHCR there was a

6 problem with distribution of those goods amongst the civil population,

7 wasn't there?

8 A. I have no -- I have no information about that. That was another

9 section. I was just in the north of the enclave.

10 Q. Right. But you had your own views about whether or not there was

11 a black market going on within the enclave run by Naser Oric, didn't you?

12 You thought he was the head of it?

13 A. I've never declared anything about Naser Oric being the head of

14 the black market.

15 Q. That's not right?

16 A. I have any recollection of ever declaring about Naser Oric being

17 head of the black market. I know that there was a kind of black market

18 but you should ask these questions to others.

19 Q. Just in relation to the goods that you saw coming out of the UNHCR

20 warehouse, can you be a little bit more specific, what, about sacks of

21 rice, flour? What did you see?

22 A. It was norm -- it was flour.

23 Q. Anything else?

24 A. I saw flour brought out.

25 Q. And that was by the civilian population doing that?

Page 2875

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Yes.

3 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thank you, Ms. Condon.

5 Who is next? Mr. Bourgon? Go ahead. We will have a break at

6 10.30, Mr. Bourgon.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

8 Q. Good morning, Colonel.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I have a few questions for you, well, first let me confirm I

11 mentioned that to you when we met yesterday or the day before, that I

12 represent Drago Nikolic in this case, and I have a few questions for you

13 in respect of the situation as you lived it in July of 1995. First I'd

14 like to confirm with you that you did not -- during your stay in

15 Srebrenica, you did not see or have access to any orders or any other

16 internal documents, whether from the ABiH or from the BSA. Would that be

17 correct?

18 A. I haven't seen any orders from both sides.

19 Q. So would you agree with me that other than what you could see, you

20 could not tell what they wanted to accomplish at any one time?

21 A. Could you be more specific? I don't know where you're aiming at.

22 Q. Well, simply, if you see, you assume that they are doing something

23 but you don't have anything on paper saying that this is what they are

24 trying to do, according to the orders that were issued?

25 A. Well, I haven't seen any written orders by BSA. I only saw the

Page 2876

1 troops.

2 Q. So you don't know what they were trying to accomplish throughout

3 your time in Bosnia?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Other than what from what you can see?

6 A. No. Of course, I've seen what they are doing. When you're on the

7 road and you see eight or ten Muslims with hands in their neck with two

8 infantry BSA soldiers with them I don't have to have a written report that

9 they were transporting them to the --

10 Q. Absolutely agree with you. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm

11 referring to in terms of the army of the Serbian army, the Bosnian Serb

12 army, in terms of their goal in launching the attack on Srebrenica

13 enclave.

14 A. Well, when I was.

15 Q. You did not know that others than from what you can see and then

16 guess based on your experience?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that already.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer that because I was in

19 a school room with this Major Zoran Malinic and he had all maps of the

20 enclave and he had some observation posts on it and he had some marks on

21 it as well in the south of the enclave. So that's what I saw.


23 Q. Thank you. Now, in your -- as part of your testimony, you

24 mentioned in response to a question from one of my colleagues that you saw

25 an artillery piece, as a matter of fact an M-48, which belonged to the

Page 2877

1 Muslims in the enclave, and that was close to your position?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And this would have taken place according to your testimony in

4 Krstic, the second day that you took your blocking position?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And you did see during your stay in the -- during that time frame

7 that you adopted or took your blocking position, you did see a number of

8 armed Muslim men in the village?

9 A. I've seen them, yes.

10 Q. Now, yesterday you mentioned a relatively low number of 60

11 [Realtime transcript read in error "630"], because others have said 1500,

12 but can we agree that there were lots of armed men that you saw in that

13 village mixed with the population?

14 A. I saw a lot of armed men but not 1500, oh, no, not more than 100.

15 I said 60. That was what I thought was correct at that time.

16 Q. Now, these soldiers that you saw, they were armed?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

18 JUDGE KWON: The transcript page 32, line 20 should read 60

19 instead of 630.

20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21 Q. I just want to ask you of you that the armed men that you saw?

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bourgon, take a note of your transcript, please.

23 MR. BOURGON: I will slow down. Didn't happen last time I thought

24 I was okay, but -- let's not get excited.

25 Q. Colonel, the men you saw in town who were armed and the men you

Page 2878

1 saw around your blocking position and the men you saw who were handling

2 the artillery piece, these people were defending against the BSA attack;

3 is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, looking at your own position in this situation, as a member

6 of DutchBat, you had rules of engagement which were limited to self

7 defence; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And self defence, according to the UN, that means that unless you

10 are fired upon, that means a member of DutchBat, you're not to use deadly

11 force?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, at the time you went to the blocking position, you recall

14 receiving a green order saying, Forget the rules of engagement, now we

15 defend?

16 A. I had no such order given to me that we had to defend that line,

17 especially we didn't fire at the BSA from my APC. We could only reach for

18 800 metres with our gun on top of the APC. We did not fight the BSA.

19 Q. But in yourself, you did get fire upon your position, both by the

20 Muslims and by the BSA?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And you confirm that on 11 of July, there was close air support

23 and there were some Dutch fighters who did take hostile action against the

24 Bosnian Serb army?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 2879

1 Q. Now, at that point, will you agree with me that as far as the

2 Bosnian Serb army is concerned, DutchBat is no longer a friendly force?

3 A. Well, that's a strange conclusion. We did not -- we did not fire

4 at the BSA from my position. We were on top of a hill with a white

5 vehicle, with blue helmets. We were not acting green like hitting in a

6 wood and firing at the enemy. We were still a line inside of the enclave,

7 not to cross. There was no -- we were no army fighting the BSA.

8 Q. I appreciate this, Colonel but the Dutch fighters who fired upon

9 those tanks, would agree with me that they can be associated with

10 DutchBat?

11 A. Not only with DutchBat, I think they were two Dutch F-16s but they

12 could have as well been English but anything else.

13 Q. Let's say the UN to be more precise?

14 A. To be more precise, the UN, yes.

15 Q. I'd like to address the way between Srebrenica and Potocari, when

16 the population started to move along with yourself and a couple of

17 DutchBat vehicles. If I suggest to you that this movement towards

18 Potocari was actually initiated by the UN, because the population was

19 panicking and did not know what to do, would that be --

20 A. That it would be correct. We tried to get them out of Srebrenica

21 towards Potocari.

22 Q. Now, at that time, you mentioned in response to my colleague that

23 you don't know what the 28 Division is and I was caught by surprise

24 because I had a question prepared for this, but you were aware that all

25 the armed men from the enclave had left or left on the 11th of July, were

Page 2880

1 you aware of this?

2 A. I wasn't aware of that during my time at the enclave at the

3 blocking position.

4 Q. And the existence of the 28th Division as an armed component,

5 you're not aware of that either when you're there?

6 A. Well, when we talk about a division, in our army terms, it's a lot

7 of men, armed, weapons, and I think that a division isn't the right word

8 for these men who had AK 47s.

9 Q. Now, when you testified in the Krstic case, you went at length on

10 this topic, saying, how weak and unorganised Muslim army was and that it

11 could not hold the pressure of the Bosnian Serb army. Is that correct?

12 A. The only thing that they did was small groups who tried to

13 eliminate the tank. They had some fighters with AK 47s and some RPGs to

14 fire at the tank. That was the only resistance there was and there was us

15 standing between those Muslim fighters at the time and the BSA. There

16 were no tanks or just one piece of artillery what didn't fire when I was

17 there.

18 Q. So Srebrenica was, in fact, poorly defended?

19 A. Well, the weapons in the weapon collection point were given up by

20 the Muslims when it was a safe area as you know. There was no line of

21 defence. There were observation posts from the UN around the enclave.

22 There was no side by side defence of the enclave, as you suggest.

23 Q. Let me make my question more precise. In the events in which you

24 lived in those days between 8 of July going up to 11th of July, there was

25 a defence put forward trying to defend the city of Srebrenica but it was

Page 2881

1 not a very good defence?

2 A. There was -- there were only a few men with guns trying to

3 eliminate tanks. That was the only thing they could do. There were no

4 Muslims with tanks or other equipment, just like the BSA had.

5 Q. Now my question is not whether there are tanks or Muslim tanks.

6 My question is simply that they were defending the city of Srebrenica to

7 the best of their ability in the circumstances?

8 A. They were the only one who reacted at the attack of the enclave

9 but I don't know whether you can call it a defence.

10 Q. Now, given that the Muslim army was as you say maybe not well

11 organised, that's probably the reason why they decided to leave or

12 could -- would be a good reason for them to decide to leave.

13 A. I think this is a very strange question.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Colonel. If you think that in answering

15 that question you would need to speculate, please ask not to answer that

16 question.


18 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't want any speculation.

19 THE WITNESS: No. I'm sure that you don't want it either. So I

20 wasn't aware of the men leaving the enclave that I was in the Bravo 1

21 position and I don't know whether -- whether -- why they did it. You

22 could ask them.


24 Q. Now, I'm just going to ask you, did you at any point see by the

25 men who were trying to put up a defence of Srebrenica, did you at any time

Page 2882

1 see a sign of surrender?

2 A. I have no recollection of anyone surrendering to the BSA, by a

3 Muslim male at that time.

4 Q. Now, again we look at the once you're on your way between

5 Srebrenica and Potocari, you mentioned in your testimony in the Krstic

6 case, and that is on page 2219, lines 15 to 17, you mentioned that there

7 was shelling around you on both sides of the road. Do you recall saying

8 that?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Now you would agree with me that there wasn't any shelling on the

11 convoy itself or on the column of refugees with your vehicles going back

12 to Potocari?

13 A. At the time that I was there, there were grenades falling, 20, 30,

14 40 metres from the colony but I don't know what happened after I left

15 there of course. But the only thing I can describe to you is that there

16 were no people killed at the time, that there were no people killed at

17 that time by that shelling.

18 Q. Just one quick -- because in the Krstic case you said 100 metres.

19 Would that be more accurate?

20 A. Oh, yes.

21 Q. From -- because when a grenade hits the floor at ten metres you'll

22 be killed so it must be further away but --

23 Q. Now, you -- you mentioned at that time that you picked up on your

24 own vehicle, on your own APC that you picked up some people who were ill,

25 you say, "I picked up the ill people," and that is page 2220, lines 18 to

Page 2883

1 20. So you recall picking up people on your APC?

2 A. Well, the Medecins Sans Frontieres, they had a hospital in --

3 inside that and they asked me whether it was safe for them to say and we

4 said, "Oh, no, you've got to leave as well." So they brought on to my APC

5 some sick people who were in the hospital.

6 Q. Now, the purpose of my question is just to clarify with you that

7 the people who were on your APC, they came from the hospital, they are not

8 people that you pick up along the way because they get injured?

9 A. They came from the hospital.

10 Q. And how many vehicles, how many APCs from DutchBat were there

11 carrying these people?

12 A. I can only tell you about my own vehicle, that was where they were

13 brought on to, I don't know whether other vehicles transported ill people

14 as well.

15 Q. And how many people can you fit in your APC, injured people from

16 the hospital?

17 A. Well, they were not only in my APC but above it as well because we

18 drove very slowly. It could have been 20, 20 people.

19 Q. That would be the maximum, would you agree with me, 20 on an APC?

20 A. No, because I -- when I crossed the UN base of the Bravo Company,

21 I saw everything that could drive was full of people that wanted

22 protection from the UN so there were hundreds of people on one APC so it

23 could have been more but on my APC, it was just 20.

24 Q. Now, just to clarify, there is a difference between people trying

25 to get away and climbing to an APC, and people injured that you put on

Page 2884

1 your own APC?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. So when I speak about 20, 20 people that came from the hospital is

4 quite a large amount for one APC?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Okay. Now, the next day, after of course sleeping 12 hours, which

7 was no doubt well deserved, you were involved in the escorting of convoys.

8 My first question in relation to this is that you actually escorted two

9 convoys between Potocari and Kladanj, both of these convoys had a number

10 of buses and I just want to confirm that these convoys made it to Kladanj

11 and that you did not see any ill treatment of anybody on those convoys

12 during that time?

13 A. I think we discussed that already. There were two convoys, the

14 first convoy was properly with 50 people in a bus and later on it get --

15 there were more people in buses and what I saw happened to the women and

16 children was that they were leaving the buses at Kladanj and walked the

17 way towards the Muslim area.

18 Q. But my question is quite precise: You didn't see anybody on one

19 of those buses being ill treated?

20 A. Well, when you load up the bus and you push them inside the bus,

21 that's ill treatment, of course, but I haven't seen them beating them.

22 That's not what I can recall.

23 Q. Now, in between the two convoys that you escorted to Kladanj, you

24 went into the "White House" and I just wants could confirm that when you

25 went into this "White House" you saw people who were scared but you did

Page 2885

1 not see any ill treatment taking place in the "White House"?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. That's what you said in the Krstic case when you testified. But

4 you also added something. You added that when you were asked about --

5 when you asked inside the "White House" about these persons, you were

6 shown a pile of knives that were taken from these persons and you were

7 told that they wanted to, of course, disarm them to ensure that no bus

8 drivers would be attacked or hurt. You recall saying that in the Krstic

9 case? I can quote your words if you want?

10 A. I'll just answer after. You're going too fast.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you should actually quote chapter, verse,

12 page and verse.

13 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, this is on page 2231 from the

14 testimony of the witness in the Krstic case. Sorry, 2230, lines 2 to 5.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you read it out, please, Mr. Bourgon?

16 MR. BOURGON: I got the wrong reference, I'm sorry. I will find

17 the reference after a few minutes and come back to this so we don't waste

18 any time.

19 THE WITNESS: I can recall that there was a story of course by the

20 BSA why they should separate the men from the women.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's -- it's related to the --

22 MR. BOURGON: I now have the reference, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I wanted it read out. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?


25 Q. The question was, "Did you have a conversation with any of the

Page 2886

1 Bosnian Serb soldiers who were there?"

2 And the witness answered: "I did. I asked them why would you

3 separate the men from the women? And he pointed out that a lot of knives,

4 just pocket knives, that were lying there and said, 'Well, you see, they

5 are all armed with knives and we don't want them to attack one of our bus

6 drivers.'" .

7 Do you recall this?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. That's all I wanted to -- now, as you exited from the "White

10 House," actually, money was offered to you by some of the men to say,

11 "Take us away," because they were scared. You recall that?

12 A. No. Money was offered to me because it was useless to them so it

13 wasn't money offered to me so -- "Can you arrange something for me," but

14 it was given to me so because they were sure that it wasn't of any value

15 to them.

16 Q. Okay. I'll just quote from the transcript in the Krstic case and

17 that is on page 2233, lines 19 to 22, and I'll -- you said the Muslim men

18 because they said it was useless to them, so, which was confirmed, what

19 you just mentioned, but then you added, "I then believed that they would

20 go to Kladanj and that they would be escorted."

21 So my question is simply, at that time, when this incident took

22 place, or when this event took place, about the money that was useless to

23 them, you had no reason to believe that these men would not be taken to

24 Kladanj as all the people who were being taken to Kladanj at that time?

25 A. I believed the BSA story that they would be brought to Kladanj and

Page 2887

1 that we could escort them. At that time, I was a Dutch soldier with the

2 Geneva Conventions in the military education, of course, and I looked at

3 that as being at a conflict between two western countries. I've never

4 ever thought that the people that were inside that bus could have been

5 killed by Bosnian Serbs at that time. I was -- I'd never had a conclusion

6 that any army should do something like that.

7 Q. And you had no reason to believe on what was going on that

8 anything else was happening?

9 A. What I saw was the separation of men from the families that were

10 gathered around the UN headquarters. I saw the men taken into a "White

11 House." The men were terrified. They wanted to convince me that they

12 were killed. They offered me their money with -- which I didn't took.

13 They made the signal from the right to the left shoulder. I informed them

14 that they would be taken to Kladanj and that because I believed the either

15 army, the BSA army at that time, because they said you will escort them

16 and we will bring them to Kladanj.

17 Q. And that's the basis or the assumptions on which you were

18 operating?

19 A. At that time I thought that they would be brought to Kladanj to

20 get out of the bus because there were elder men and of course it wasn't --

21 later on you say, well, that was very naive.

22 Q. Now, well, I will --

23 A. You will not have that answer.

24 Q. It's your answer but that it stays there?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, please, please. Colonel, you just answer

Page 2888

1 the questions that are put to you and you address the Trial Chamber and

2 not Mr. Bourgon directly. No across-the-table comments.

3 Mr. Bourgon, the same applies to you. Proceed with your

4 questions, please.

5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned the Geneva Conventions and that you were

7 trained on the Geneva Conventions but you were also a professional,

8 professionally trained army officer and you would agree with me that it's

9 normal to disarm the persons that you will either be detained or that will

10 be interned, to disarm is a normal procedure?

11 A. Well, when you consider them as prisoners of war, it is, but I

12 don't know that these men were prisoners of war. They were elder men and

13 younger boys, there were no --

14 Q. If, let's take --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish the answer. I'm not sure that he had

16 finished the answer, Mr. Bourgon, his answer.

17 THE WITNESS: So when you asked me about what will you do with

18 hostile fighters or soldiers, you could have course take their weapons and

19 detain them and interrogate them. That is what is in the Geneva

20 Convention of course, but these group of people were elder men and younger

21 boys. They didn't belong to an army or of a division.


23 Q. Now, I take your -- that might have been your observation that

24 they did not belong to an army, but my question is straightforward. If

25 you have fighting personnel or soldiers that you detain or that you intern

Page 2889

1 it is normal to disarm them and to interrogate them, which is what you

2 just said?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Now, I suggest to you that one of the things that they were

5 interested in knowing from these people is where all the armed men from

6 the enclave had vanished.

7 A. I don't recall that. I've never asked about the other men who

8 vanished from the enclave.

9 Q. And one last question because you mentioned the Geneva

10 Conventions, that you know that the Geneva Conventions ask of you, that

11 you keep separated the soldiers and civilians. You are aware of that?

12 A. I am.

13 Q. Now, the three buses on which you saw these persons loaded from

14 the "White House," you mention in your testimony that they were -- you

15 were told that they did not make it to Kladanj but you were told this

16 information days later. That's according to your testimony. I just want

17 to confirm that this is something that you were never able to confirm.

18 It's something you heard days later.

19 A. Well, as you know, I was a guest of the BSA during the night that

20 followed, and when I get back to the compound I spoke to the Lieutenant

21 who was on the car which had to go all the way to Kladanj with the men and

22 he told me that he was stopped nearby Bratunac with an AK 47 on his head

23 and that they had to return. So that's the only thing I said and I can't

24 add anything else to that.

25 Q. We'll just go back to exactly what you said and that is on page

Page 2890

1 2234, line 17 to 22. And you said at that time, "I left with convoy

2 number 4, later on, but some days later, I've been told, those three buses

3 never left Bratunac. They went to Bratunac and the escort was stopped

4 there by the Bosnian Serbs." So neither you nor the person who reported

5 that information to you days later knows what happened with those three

6 buses?

7 A. Well, that's correct, because when I had my convoy to Kladanj I

8 couldn't return to the compound the same day, and I had to stay overnight

9 so some days later it was told to me by this Lieutenant.

10 Q. Now, on your way to Kladanj and I think that was during -- when

11 you took the second convoy, you mention seeing BSA soldiers firing in into

12 the woods. Do you recall saying that?

13 A. I've seen them firing inside -- towards the woods, yes.

14 Q. And the Prosecution made a point of asking you if anyone in the

15 woods returned fire, and your answer was no.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Now, you would agree with me, as a professional military officer,

18 that if there were indeed Muslims in the woods, of course if, then if they

19 would fire back, they would reveal their position and draw fire upon them,

20 and it's a good reason why they would not return fire.

21 A. Or another reason is that they won't have any weapons at all to

22 fire with.

23 Q. I'm just asking you that first possibility is one but the

24 possibility I'm asking you --

25 A. It's a possibility as well.

Page 2891

1 Q. Now, another possibility is that they are not there at all?

2 A. That's a third one.

3 Q. Okay. Now, on the road, you also mentioned having seen vehicles

4 with a giant wolf head. And that was testimony here on 18 of October,

5 page 97, lines 10 to 12. And looking at what you said, you mention, "I

6 guess it was the Drina Wolves." You remember saying that?

7 A. The only thing I -- I saw was a wolf's head and of course I'm

8 testified in the Krstic case and then it became clear that it could be a

9 Drina Corps car that I've seen but at that time I only saw the wolf's head

10 on the car.

11 Q. So at that time, you did not see -- you did not know or have any

12 information what that wolf's head meant in terms of what unit could have

13 been present?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And you did not know if the people or the soldiers around these

16 vehicles had any relationship with the vehicle or the vehicles, because

17 you said many vehicles, with the wolf's head; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. I only saw blue camouflage uniforms and normal

19 camouflage uniforms who were there in the nearance of the cars with the

20 wolf's head.

21 Q. Now, if I suggest to you that vehicles from the Drina Wolves do

22 not have any wolf's head on them, is it possible you saw something else?

23 A. Well, I'm sure that if you tell me that the Drina Wolves don't

24 have wolf's heads on their cars, I'm sure that you're right, but the only

25 thing I saw was a wolf's head on the car, and I can't -- I can't add

Page 2892

1 anything to -- towards that.

2 Q. Now, the answer you just gave you say on the car because when you

3 testified on -- when you responded to the questions of my colleague, you

4 mention vehicles in plural. How many vehicles did you see with a wolf's

5 head?

6 A. I can't recall the number. It could have been two or one or three

7 but ...

8 Q. If in the Krstic case you answered only one vehicle, would that be

9 the case?

10 A. Well, I'm sure that that was at least one. It could have been two

11 but I don't recall that specifically right now, 11 years later, sir.

12 Q. Now, throughout the time you spent in -- in those events let's say

13 from 5 July until 14th of July I would just like to confirm that you never

14 met or encountered anyone from the Zvornik Brigade?

15 A. I don't know that, sir, because I've seen BSA infantry. I don't

16 know whether they belonged to the Zvornik Brigade. I've met a few

17 lieutenants when I was at the school. I don't know which units they

18 belonged to so I can't tell you that I've never met them.

19 Q. But my question is very precise. When you are in Potocari or when

20 you are on the way with those convoys, or when you are in your blocking

21 position, did you encounter anyone who introduced himself as a member of

22 the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Well, this is a specific question, and nobody introduced himself

24 to me as a member of the Zvornik Brigade but I don't know whether they

25 were when I saw them nearby the road.

Page 2893

1 Q. I agree with that but you never met anyone from the Zvornik

2 Brigade during those events?

3 A. Who was identifying himself as being a member of the Zvornik

4 Brigade.

5 Q. I appreciate your answer. One last question I have for you is

6 that there is a distinct difference between the weapons used by the UN,

7 which is the FN, and the weapons used by the parties, which is the AK 47.

8 It's very easy to distinguish the two for someone who was in July 1995 --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- in Srebrenica?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions. Thank you very much,

13 Colonel.

14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Bourgon. I think we can take the

16 break now. We will reconvene in 25 minutes' time. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's you, Mr. Lazarevic, who goes next.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: You're right, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic will be cross-examining you now, and

22 he appears for Accused Borovcanin.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good morning, Your Honour.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Egbers. With your assistance

Page 2894

1 this will be a very brief examination. I just wish to clarify certain

2 points of your testimony you gave over the previous two days.

3 During your testimony on the 18th of October 2006 you said that

4 you spent the night between the 11th and the 12th of July 1995 at the UN

5 base in Potocari. Do you remember that?

6 A. I don't remember that, telling you that. Is it in the line?

7 Q. Well, you see, that was the night on the 11th, when you came to

8 the Potocari base and you spent the night there. That's the part of your

9 testimony I'm referring to.

10 A. Well, that's correct but I'm not that strong in all those dates

11 from the days so I was two days at blocking position 1 and I went back to

12 Potocari before I had a tour with the buses, so I was there, yes.

13 Q. I apologise, I didn't think that this detail was going to be

14 unknown to you but that was the night before you went with the convoy and

15 the buses. That's your testimony on the 18th of October, page 93 to 94.

16 You said that after you spent the night there, you awoke and your task was

17 to escort the buses and that by that time, the buses had already arrived

18 at the UN base in Potocari. Do you recall that part of your testimony?

19 A. Yes, I do recall that part of my testimony.

20 Q. In connection with this particular point, could you be as precise

21 as possible and estimate the time you awoke, as far as you can?

22 A. I awoke early in the morning but I don't know the exact time. It

23 was before the buses entered the enclave.

24 Q. You seem to have anticipated my next question. Therefore, the

25 buses arrived after you woke up?

Page 2895

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Another question in connection with this: Had the evacuation

3 already started at the point you were given the order to escort the

4 convoy?

5 A. No. It didn't start until we, with two vehicles, could accompany

6 the buses towards Kladanj.

7 Q. I conclude on the basis of your answer that you escorted the first

8 convoy, or rather that there was no other convoy leaving for Kladanj

9 before the one you escorted.

10 A. That is my recollection, that I had to escort the first convoy. I

11 don't know whether others might have left the enclave with buses which I

12 didn't see but I can only tell you what I saw.

13 Q. Can you tell us at what time approximately the convoy set off?

14 A. I can't recall that.

15 Q. Very well. Another question on this particular point: In that

16 first convoy you accompanied, were there any men?

17 A. I've only seen women and children in the first convoy. I haven't

18 seen any elder or younger men at that time, and as I told you, I had to

19 drive behind the last bus, the bus broke down, and I focused on that bus

20 and there were no men on that bus.

21 Q. I would like to show you a document now. This is your debriefing

22 dated 11 September 1995. That is Exhibit 2D25. Can we please take a look

23 at page 11, paragraph 3, in the English version? You see paragraph 3,

24 line first of your debriefing. It says there were mainly women and

25 children in the buses. Now, on the basis of what you stated here, in

Page 2896

1 particular that you used the term "mainly," does it mean that there were

2 men after all in the convoy, as you would have remembered that much better

3 at that point in time?

4 A. I can't anything -- I can't add anything. I can't exclude that

5 there were men as well. There were mainly women and children, and in the

6 bus that broke down there were only women and children inside the bus.

7 Q. I understand your answer to mean that you cannot exclude the

8 possibility that there were men on the buses, is that a fair

9 interpretation of your answer?

10 A. I can't exclude it but I haven't seen them.

11 Q. Very well. On the 12th, when the convoy set off for Bratunac, you

12 had to pass by OP Papa; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. On the 12th, were there DutchBat members at OP Papa still there at

15 the time?

16 A. I don't recall that but it's possible.

17 Q. In the course of your trip from Potocari to Kladanj, you explained

18 that the bus broke down and you explained the circumstances in which you

19 carried on with your trip. Can you tell us at what time the bus broke

20 down, either in hours or in terms of the relationship in time from the

21 time you set off?

22 A. It was only 30 minutes after we left. We passed Bratunac and then

23 turned left, and there it broke down. I showed it on the map yesterday.

24 Q. This happened approximately near the village of Glogova; is that

25 correct?

Page 2897

1 A. I haven't seen the village but it was on the road, and I have

2 added on the map, I think a big -- I've underlined it yesterday, so I

3 didn't say that it was nearby the village but it was in the nearance of

4 it.

5 Q. Very well. That is not of the greatest relevance. I'd like to

6 know how long you spent there at the roadside from the point the bus broke

7 down to the point when the refugees boarded the bus.

8 A. I was -- the bus broke down and it took 45 minutes to an hour to

9 get a new bus.

10 Q. Thank you. Once you resumed your trip, did you at some point join

11 the convoy that was on its way to Kladanj and with which you had initially

12 set off?

13 A. I joined the convoy at Kladanj, so there were buses and I arrived

14 there with the last bus of the convoy.

15 Q. Thank you. As far as you can, can you tell us when did you travel

16 the section of the road from Glogova to Konjevic Polje?

17 A. Well, that was I think ten minutes after we -- or 15 minutes after

18 we left but I'm not sure about that.

19 Q. Thank you. As you arrived at your destination in the vicinity of

20 Kladanj, you informed OP Alpha that the convoy had passed through; is that

21 correct?

22 A. When I arrived -- when I reached Kladanj, I radioed that I was at

23 Kladanj and that all the buses were there.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you tell us exactly when did you pass

25 that section of the road between Glogova and Konjevic Polje? Was it in

Page 2898

1 the morning hours, in the afternoon hours, was it early morning, late

2 morning? Could you be specific?

3 A. Well, at that day, I first met General Mladic. Then the buses

4 were ready to go. So we left at the beginning of the -- I think it was in

5 the beginning of the evening. We had an hour delay so it was at that

6 time -- I'm not sure about the times but it was in the afternoon that I

7 was there.

8 Q. All right. Could we move on to the following day, the 13th of

9 July, 1995? You testified that you accompanied the convoy from Potocari

10 to Kladanj on that day as well. Do you recall that part of your

11 testimony?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. The convoy you accompanied on the 13th, was it the first convoy to

14 leave on the 13th?

15 A. I'm not sure about that. I can't recall it. We have numbered the

16 convoys but I'm not sure whether convoy 1 left that day. I'm sorry.

17 Q. All right. But can you tell us at least when the convoy you

18 escorted on the 13th set off, at what time?

19 A. It was in the morning, but it wasn't in the beginning of the

20 morning. It was -- because I first witnessed the separation of the men

21 and women. That convoy left, then there was the men going into the buses,

22 and then it was me. So there must be convoys during that morning and I

23 think at the end of the morning, I left with my convoy.

24 Q. If I understand your answer correctly, you stated that there were

25 convoys leaving ahead of you and that in these convoys, men were separated

Page 2899

1 from women. Is that the gist of your answer?

2 A. That morning, I saw men being separated from their families. They

3 were inside buses. I don't know whether it was convoy number 3 or convoy

4 number 4, but one of the two was convoy with the men and the other one

5 with the women and children. They were escorted by my vehicle. So I

6 can't exclude that there were more convoys leaving that morning but I'm

7 not sure about that. I can't tell you with 100 per cent certainty that it

8 happened that morning.

9 Q. All right. As you arrived to your destination near Kladanj with

10 that second convoy, did you inform OP Alpha of your arrival there?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Thank you. When you travelled with the other convoy on the 13th,

13 you also passed by OP Papa and did you see any DutchBat members there at

14 the time?

15 A. I can't recall that. I followed the buses. That was where I was

16 focusing on.

17 Q. All right. Finally, I'd like to move to some events you described

18 in your evidence, and which have to do with "White House." At page 21 of

19 the transcript during your yesterday's testimony, you said that you went

20 to the "White House" because you heard a woman screaming because her

21 husband had been separated from her and had been taken in the direction of

22 the "White House." You also stated that you entered the "White House" and

23 that you saw men seated in all the rooms waiting to see what would become

24 of them and that you spoke to them briefly. That's the gist of your

25 yesterday's evidence. Do you recall that?

Page 2900

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Can you tell us more specifically now at what time or what time of

3 day it was when you went to the "White House"?

4 A. It was in the morning, before my convoy left. So I don't know the

5 exact time but it was in the early -- in the morning, so --

6 Q. I'd like to show you a part of your statement to the OTP

7 investigators, given to them on the 24th of October 1995. That is Exhibit

8 2D19. Before I ask you some matters about this statement, you were able

9 to see this statement of yours yesterday but at the time you were giving

10 this statement, did you give it to the best of your recollection and

11 knowledge?

12 A. Do you ask me questions about my testimony yesterday or what was

13 written down?

14 Q. I'm asking you about the statement you gave to the OTP

15 investigators on the 24th of October 1995.

16 A. Well, yes, that was an interview so they asked me questions and

17 they wrote the report.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is whether your asked answers were to

19 the best of your recollection and knowledge at the time.

20 THE WITNESS: Of course.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you this as well, in 1995 in the month of

23 October, three months after the relevant events, your memory was much

24 fresher than it is today, many years later?

25 A. Well, the problem with witness statements in 1995 were that it

Page 2901

1 wasn't -- it was an interview and it was reported by the Dutch government,

2 so it was an interview during the day and the things they thought were

3 relevant were typed out. So when you ask me specific questions about the

4 colour of his eyes or the colour of his hair, it didn't seem that

5 important in 1995, so when you ask me questions about what happened at

6 that time of day, it could be that it's not in the original witness

7 statement because I wasn't asked of it, and she interpreted it and she

8 wrote it down and that's what we discussed. So it's -- of course, this is

9 what I could remember then but when the investigators didn't ask me the

10 questions, I couldn't answer them as well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a very simple question which you could have

12 answered with a yes or a no. The suggestion is to you to accept that way

13 back in 1995, in the month of October, three months after the events when

14 you were then interviewed, your memory would have been much fresher, much

15 better, or fresher or better than it is today.

16 THE WITNESS: It is.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Finally, can we see page 5, paragraph 2 of your

19 statement dated the 24th of October 1995? Did you see the part starting

20 with the words, "I went in" and I will read it for you. It says

21 here, "[In English] I went in and I saw a Muslim man sitting on the first

22 room on the right-hand side after the entrance. He was sitting alone.

23 The other rooms on the ground floor were empty. I did not go upstairs."

24 [Interpretation] These are your words describing the events in the "White

25 House" in 1995. Therefore, you entered the house, you saw a man seated in

Page 2902

1 one room, whereas all the other rooms on the ground floor were empty and

2 you didn't go upstairs. My question to you is: Do you stand by this

3 statement of yours that you gave back in 1995?

4 A. Well, as I can recall it, I went upstairs and I spoke to other men

5 and they -- so it's not correct in this statement. I went upstairs, and I

6 had a look, and I spoke to these men as well as I spoke to them when they

7 went into the buses.

8 Q. Do you wish to say that your 1995 statement is not correct in this

9 part?

10 A. As I can remember it right now, it's not correct for me not going

11 upstairs because I can remember that, that I've been there.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: May I just intervene here and ask a question: On

13 that day, the 13th of July, did you enter into one house only or possibly

14 more than one house in the vicinity of the compound?

15 THE WITNESS: It was just one house.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One house. Thank you.

17 Mr. Lazarevic?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I understood next one

21 is to be Mr. --

22 MR. JOSSE: Change of plan again, Your Honour. Mr. Krgovic

23 negotiates these things on my part.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau. Madam Fauveau is representing

25 General Miletic on these things and she will be cross-examining you.

Page 2903

1 Thank you.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, before you left for Srebrenica or when you

4 arrived at Srebrenica, were you briefed as to the task of the DutchBat?

5 A. I was.

6 Q. Wasn't one of the tasks to demilitarise the enclave?

7 A. It was.

8 Q. Would you agree that the enclave was never demilitarised?

9 A. When we entered the enclave there was a weapon collection point

10 and all the weapons should have been into the weapon collection point, but

11 there were men carrying weapons inside the enclave. That's what I can

12 confirm.

13 Q. Could we say that at the time when you left for Srebrenica, it

14 never came up as an issue to defend the enclave?

15 A. We were not there to defend the enclave. Well, the only thing we

16 had to do was to report things we saw at the observation post. There was

17 no force, there was no force, Dutch force, inside the enclave that could

18 defend such a terrain.

19 Q. Indeed, you did not have the means to defend the enclave but you

20 had enough means to carry out your task, didn't you?

21 A. I can only tell you about my own task, as a platoon leader, and I

22 had a platoon with one observation post, we could manage. The only thing

23 we did was patrolling the area during the day, and we weren't even in the

24 area during the night so we could never defend it.

25 Q. My question was with regard to your ordinary tasks, the one that

Page 2904

1 were part of your mission to the enclave. Did you have enough means for

2 that?

3 A. Well, when I look at my own means, an entire platoon with 30 men,

4 and APCs, that could manage the observation post. But when -- there was a

5 lot of pressure on the ammunition, for instance. We had no fresh

6 ammunition. We had no food delivered. We had no diesel delivered. So if

7 you ask me whether we could ever -- we could carry out our mission, it was

8 no, because we couldn't get stuff inside it.

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

10 2D25?

11 Q. Could I take you to page 5? Paragraph with the

12 heading, "Logistics." Sir, this is one of your prior statements to the

13 Dutch authorities. On that occasion, this is what you stated. "[In

14 English] There was sufficient equipment to be available to be able to

15 protect himself but not to defend the enclave. It was not their

16 assignment to defend the enclave. His impression was that they were given

17 sufficient resources to be able to function in the enclave."

18 A. Well, that was the situation when we entered the enclave. We had

19 enough diesel to use the cars we had but as you know, people from my

20 platoon were -- had a permission to leave the enclave to go for a short

21 break to Zagreb, but never had the permission to go back to the enclave to

22 join the platoon again.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Would you agree that nothing in this statement

24 you have in front of you is limited to the very beginning of your time of

25 service in the enclave? There is no date attached to this paragraph, is

Page 2905

1 there?

2 A. That's correct. So I just explained it.

3 Q. Today you testified about two Englishmen belonging to the SAS.

4 Could you tell us what their task was?

5 A. They were with our Special Forces in the enclave, and I have had

6 them on OP -- on Bravo 1 and they had radio contact with other UN troops.

7 I don't know which troops they were. But there were two SAS NCOs in the

8 enclave. I don't know what specific their task was.

9 Q. Do you know when they arrived in the enclave?

10 A. They were there I thought in January as well, so I've seen them

11 for a long time, for several months.

12 Q. Were they under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Karremans or

13 were they under another command?

14 A. I don't know that. They were no member of my platoon or my

15 company. They were seated with the other Special Forces.

16 Q. Earlier on you mentioned the permission for transportation that

17 were not given to DutchBat members or rather that they were not authorised

18 to return into the enclave. Do you know who would grant such

19 authorisations?

20 A. As I can recall, it was the Bosnian Serb army that would --

21 granted us to get the men and the equipment back into the enclave. That's

22 what -- that was told to me.

23 Q. Do you know which was the organ in charge of these permissions or

24 authorisations?

25 A. I don't know that. The only thing I know is that it was told by

Page 2906

1 my company commander that one of our generals had to speak about that with

2 General Mladic.

3 Q. I suppose that when you mentioned commands, you meant Lieutenant

4 Colonel Karremans?

5 A. I was informed by my company commander, Matthijssen and of course

6 he's in the line. He is one of the commanders of -- he's under the

7 command of Karremans so I didn't talk to Mr. Karremans myself. I was

8 talked about this -- I talked about this with my company commander who

9 told me that generals would speak about this matter.

10 Q. Sir, were you taken hostage by the Muslims whilst you were in the

11 enclave?

12 A. I was, at the Bandera Triangle in the west of the enclave, as we

13 entered the enclave in January 1995. Could have been February as well.

14 In the winter.

15 Q. Is it fair to say that the conditions of detention were rather

16 bad?

17 A. We stayed in our vehicle at -- during two nights. And it was cold

18 outside, as I can recall.

19 Q. Is it fair to say that the men who took you hostage were under the

20 command of a man named Zulfo?

21 A. That's correct. That's what they told me.

22 Q. The Muslim forces under the command of Zulfo, were they in charge

23 of the area between OPA and OPC?

24 A. That's what they told me, that Zulfo was in charge of men who were

25 in that side of the enclave.

Page 2907

1 Q. Can it be said that these Muslim forces commanded by Zulfo were

2 well organised?

3 A. I can't -- I can't say that because they were blocking us on the

4 road. They communicated with notes. I've never seen Mr. -- this Mr.

5 Zulfo. So the negotiations went on a higher level, with -- by this

6 commander of DutchBat. So I don't know whether they were organised well

7 or not.

8 Q. Can the witness be shown the same exhibit, 2D25, but we'd like to

9 turn to page 6. Second paragraph, please. There is a sentence in the

10 middle of the paragraph, "[In English] The area around OPA was never calm

11 during the entire period. Zulfo was the leader of the Muslims between OPC

12 and OPA. The Muslims in this area were well organised." [Interpretation]

13 Sir, would you agree that the Muslims were well organised in this area?

14 A. Well, they were better organised in this area than the other area

15 of the enclave, because Zulfo was a man they were all afraid of, and he --

16 what he told had to be done, well, it was done. So they were better

17 organised but you can't compare this to an army organisation.

18 Q. Is it fair to say that after this incident when you were taken

19 hostage, the UNPROFOR forces could no longer get into the area called the

20 Bandera Triangle?

21 A. Well, it was a piece of landscape belonging to the southern part

22 of the enclave. It was under the command of the Bravo Company so I don't

23 know whether they were able to go into observation post Charlie again. I

24 can't recall that.

25 Q. Can I refresh your memory? We are still dealing with Exhibit

Page 2908

1 2D25, this time page 4. First paragraph. Last sentence. "[In English]

2 After a while, the UNPROFOR was no longer allowed to enter the so-called

3 Bandera Triangle. It was unclear why."

4 A. I've read that.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Now, do you remember that the UNPROFOR was no

6 longer allowed to enter the Bandera Triangle area?

7 A. I know that there was a problem when we came in, we had this

8 blockation of the roads for a few days, but I'm not -- I didn't get in the

9 triangle but I had nothing to do there so those questions has to be

10 answered by the Bravo Company who was there. I don't know whether they

11 went in at any time. I can't recall that. But whether it was allowed or

12 not, during that time, they said, well, we are -- we are here in this

13 triangle.

14 Q. On the 18th of October 2006, page 83 of the transcript, you said

15 that you also belonged to a reserve battalion. When you were part of the

16 reserve battalion, were you under the command of Captain Groen?

17 A. Well, I don't know whether I've used the word battalion but that's

18 not the correct word. There was a reserve force, and it only had four

19 APCs and each APC had a driver, a gunner, and a commander. So that was

20 the reserve. A reserve battalion, it never was, of course, and I was

21 under the command of Captain Groen at that time.

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P2263?

23 Q. This is an order dated the 9th of July 1995, sent by Major Franken

24 to Captain Groen. Through this order, as can be seen in the first

25 paragraph, DutchBat were ordered to prevent the BSA from entering the town

Page 2909

1 and towards the end of the paragraph, we see that this is a green order or

2 assignment. Were you able to read this first paragraph?

3 A. I am. I see this for the first time.

4 Q. Well, you anticipated my question. I was about to ask you that.

5 So you never saw this order before?

6 A. No. I never saw this.

7 Q. Is it fair to say that when you were on position B 1, Bravo 1, you

8 were next to a piece of Muslim artillery?

9 A. I was.

10 Q. And was it the first time that you became aware that the Muslim

11 forces in the enclave had artillery?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did the army of Republika Srpska bomb the positions that were

14 around you?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Is it fair to say that you never thought that the BSA was bombing

17 your position?

18 A. At first, they were -- I wasn't sure about that but the second

19 time, when I drove to another position, I was shelled there as well. So

20 then that's when I reported that they were shelling us.

21 Q. Can we show the witness Exhibit 5D77, please? I need the end of

22 the first page right now, and then at the beginning of the second page.

23 This is a report by NIOD, and the last sentence on the last page says as

24 follows: "[In English] Even though Lieutenant Egbers was shot by the VRS

25 he did not believe that the VRS deliberately shot at DutchBat."

Page 2910

1 [Interpretation] So now if we look at page 6, we need to see the

2 footnotes, please, footnote number 3. You see that footnote number 3

3 which is where the excerpt I read comes from, is excerpted from an

4 interview with you that we don't have. But could you tell us whether this

5 sentence in the NIOD actually states what you said in that interview that

6 you gave in 1999?

7 A. Well, as I just declared, we were shelled several times, and I've

8 described the first shelling, that I wasn't 100 per cent sure that they

9 were shelling me because of the piece of artillery just in the

10 neighbourhood, and it wasn't -- it was mortar fire so you can't aim at a

11 specific target at that time. So when the first shells fell, I could not

12 report to Captain Groen that it was aimed at my position because of the

13 other position of the Muslim fighters. But later on I got shelled again,

14 and when I drove away from the position, the shelling continued. So that

15 was clear to me that I was shelled at that time by the Bosnian Serb army,

16 but in the first time I wasn't sure about that.

17 Q. I'd like to go back to page 1 of this document, please. And ask

18 the witness to carefully read the last paragraph on that page.

19 A. I've read it.

20 Q. Do you agree with me if you say -- if I say that this paragraph

21 does not relate to a specific shelling but just to a general situation?

22 A. Well, this says something about the smoking gun and there was

23 close air support so, the close air support was on my position so I

24 ordered -- I informed my commander, Captain Groen, at that time, that I

25 was shelled and that's why the two Dutch F-16s were sent in to help me.

Page 2911

1 So at first, so your question was clear. This is generally spoken but as

2 a result of the shelling of my position, and even when I drove away with

3 the vehicles, the shelling continued, the close air support was called in.

4 Q. You also said that when you were in that blocking position, you

5 could see the BSA entering in villages and burn houses, is that true?

6 A. What I saw from that blocking position was the village of

7 Pusmulici and there what I saw together with my soldiers via a binocular

8 that there was BSA coming into those houses.

9 Q. You did not see the fire in the houses?

10 A. I saw the smoke coming out of the houses.

11 Q. If there had been combat in that village, would you have seen the

12 combat?

13 A. I don't know. How can I answer this question? I only saw the

14 smoke. I saw the men coming -- going into the houses. I haven't seen the

15 fighting but I can't tell you whether I should have seen the fighting if

16 it was there. I don't know whether it was there or not.

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness Exhibit

18 5D78? To save time it's another report by NIOD. It's another extract by

19 NIOD. We need page 3, last paragraph.

20 Q. Could you please take a look at the sentence starting by DutchBat?

21 It says on the fourth line, and this is what it says: "[In English]

22 [Microphone not activated] [Microphone not activated]?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that Madam Fauveau is reading in English but

24 we are not -- was it just your microphone that wasn't on? I don't know.

25 JUDGE KWON: The transcript says "[Microphone not activated]."

Page 2912

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It is on.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: May I just Madam Fauveau that you start reading

3 again, please?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: "DutchBat could see the Bosnian Serbs advance with

5 tanks and their forces clear out the villages. The VRS systematically

6 torched all houses scattered along the road possibly because ABiH soldiers

7 that were still putting up a defence had converted the houses into

8 defensive positions."

9 Q. [Interpretation] So this is a question I'd like to ask. What you

10 saw from your position, could that correspond to the description I just

11 read to you?

12 A. Well, I haven't seen any fighting along those houses. The only

13 thing I saw was the smoke coming out of the houses, and the BSA entering

14 the enclave at Pusmulici so these are conclusions but I can't draw those

15 conclusions.

16 Q. And if there had been snipers in that house, could you have seen

17 them work?

18 A. I don't know whether there were snipers in houses. I don't know

19 whether I could have seen them. These are all questions -- I haven't seen

20 them, I'm sorry.

21 Q. You said today at page 18 that you saw the Muslims, in July 85 [as

22 interpreted] in -- weapons only in July. So before that date, when you

23 saw men with weapons, you were supposed to take their weapons away, right?


25 A. That's right.

Page 2913

1 Q. So wouldn't it be logical to deduct that the Muslims hid their

2 weapons whenever they saw UN forces?

3 A. The only thing I can say is that I haven't seen them on -- until

4 that summer. So when you ask me whether it should be logical or not, I

5 think it would be logical but I don't know where you want to go to with

6 these questions.

7 Q. So during that period in July 1995, right before the collapse of

8 the enclave, when you saw the Muslim and civilian Muslims with weapons, is

9 it fair to say that it was really difficult to make a difference between

10 the military men and civilian men? Talked about able-bodied men.

11 A. At that time, I saw Muslim men carrying weapons, and you're asking

12 me whether it's difficult to tell you the difference between a soldier and

13 a non-combatant. I think -- are you aiming at that? Because I don't

14 understand the question, correct.

15 Q. Yes. That's what I want to know. Making a difference between a

16 civilian and military people, when it comes to able-bodied men. Is it

17 difficult to make?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. When you left the blocking post and arrived in Srebrenica, you

20 said earlier today that you saw military people on the marketplace in

21 Srebrenica. I would like now to show you a short video. It's the P2047,

22 and it's a 1 minute 30 long sequence starting at 4.45.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Sir, does this correspond to what you saw in Srebrenica when you

Page 2914

1 arrived there?

2 A. Do you ask me whether I recognise the environment or the roads

3 or --

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I see the gas station. It must be the same gas station as is in

6 the south of the UN base of the Bravo Company.

7 Q. Do you agree with me that if I say that the only explosion that we

8 can hear in this video had to come from Muslim forces?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. So from a military point of view, would it be logical for the VRS

11 to respond to this explosion?

12 A. I don't think I can answer the question because it is just a piece

13 of mortar that fired. I don't know the circumstances we are in. I don't

14 know whether it's fore [phoen] or not. I don't have any other

15 information.

16 Q. But you recognise the place from where that shot was fired?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Can you confirm that this place was very close to where all the

19 refugees were, all the women, the children and the elderly?

20 A. I see all the refugees on the video. So I think that's correct.

21 Q. Could we now show the witness Exhibit 5D79? Page 5, please. And

22 the middle paragraph that starts with"Honing" [phoen]. It's the

23 description of an event made by one of your colleagues in the

24 DutchBat. "[In English] You saw with my own eyes how someone within the

25 crowd just outside our fence fired off a small mortar in the direction of

Page 2915

1 the Bosnian Serb positions. I saw the smoke from the shot. That Muslim

2 soldiers hid behind the women and children. What a disgrace for a

3 soldier. That kind of incident didn't do much to increase our respect for

4 the Muslim army."

5 [Interpretation] Does this description correspond to what we saw

6 on the video?

7 A. I don't think so because there is no Dutch APC on the video as

8 well, and I don't know whether it was a Dutch video.

9 Q. But the party -- the fact that they were hiding behind women and

10 children, could that apply to this incident also?

11 A. I don't think so, because I saw a mortar fire, you don't have to

12 fire a mortar in front of the other troops. The mortar will fire a few

13 thousand metres away. So I can't connect this video to this statement.

14 I'm sorry, you have to ask this Mr. Honing belonging to the Bravo Company.

15 I can't confirm that.

16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the

17 Exhibit 5D81? Page 2, the paragraph before last.

18 Q. So according to what we read in this paragraph, "[In English]

19 Probably at that point near the market square that the DutchBat soldier

20 used his weapon. The said soldier was guarding the rear of one of the

21 APCs when he saw a man emerging from behind the house and climb up his

22 weapon to shoot at the APC. The DutchBat soldier thinking it was an

23 antitank weapon fired and hit the potential assailant who fell to the

24 ground. The APC immediately drove away."

25 [Interpretation] Do you have any knowledge of this event?

Page 2916

1 A. Can I read it?

2 Q. [In English] Yes, of course. Oui.

3 A. I've read it. Your question was, Madam?

4 Q. [Interpretation] Do you have any knowledge of this incident?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. You're talking today about the evacuation of the Srebrenica

7 people, and you agree to say that it was the UN that initiated the

8 evacuation in the first place. I would like now to show you a short

9 video, 20 seconds long, P2045.

10 MS. SOLJAN: I don't believe, in fact -- if that was a question, I

11 don't believe that that was in fact what the witness has agreed to or has

12 said. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that the UN initiated the deportation.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There was one question that was asked by Mr. Bourgon

15 this morning that Madam Fauveau is referring to, yes, and I think the

16 witness in a way did accept that proposition, that the first movement of

17 refugees was as a result of action taken by -- but we can go straight to

18 the page. Which page is it?

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Page 35.

20 MR. BOURGON: We are talking, Mr. President, from Srebrenica to

21 Potocari, just to make it clear.

22 THE WITNESS: That's another kind of evacuation.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So which line? So the question by Mr. Bourgon was

24 the following: "I'd like to address the way between Srebrenica and

25 Potocari, when the population started to move along with yourself and a

Page 2917

1 couple of DutchBat vehicles. If I suggest to you that this movement

2 towards Potocari was actually initiated by the UN because the population

3 was panicking and did not know what would that be," and it stops there.

4 The witness's answer was that it would be correct, we tried to get them

5 out of Potocari, of Srebrenica, towards Potocari.

6 That's the question and the answer as it shows in the transcript.

7 THE WITNESS: But I thought she was referring to the deportation

8 of the women and children from Potocari to Kladanj, but that's my mistake,

9 I guess.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me read the question again. I

11 think it was your mistake because I think it's clear enough, because she

12 was obviously referring you to your previous part of the testimony, which

13 couldn't but have been to the evacuation from Srebrenica in the direction

14 of Potocari. So let's repeat the question, Madam Fauveau, please, and

15 then he can proceed with the answer.

16 Actually, there is no question. You're going to show him the

17 video, which is P2045? And we can take it up from there. Thank you.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's sequence starting at 13.20.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Sir, are these the images that you saw in Srebrenica on July 11th,

22 1995?

23 A. I was there at that time, and I saw things like this happen, yes.

24 Q. And you agree to say that the UN vehicle transporting these people

25 were overloaded?

Page 2918

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. With your own vehicle, you evacuated people from the Srebrenica

3 hospital. Is it fair to say that the people that you evacuated were sick

4 people and you did not see any wounded among them?

5 A. We had sick people. I don't recall whether there were wounded

6 inside of the hospital but we evacuated the hospital.

7 Q. Do you agree with me to say that you did not know whether there

8 were any wounded, you did not see them with your own eyes?

9 A. When I was in Bravo 1, at the blocking position, I saw a Muslim

10 man wounded at the stomach. But I don't know what happened to him.

11 Q. That man you're talking about who was at the blocking position,

12 was a Muslim soldier fighting against the BSA, right?

13 A. Well, it was a Muslim standing nearby a piece of artillery that

14 wasn't used.

15 Q. Sir, on October 18, in that statement at page 93, you said that

16 when you came to Potocari with the refugees there were no water for the

17 refugees. I'd like now to show you Exhibit 5D67. This is the last part

18 of paragraph 1, please. This is what it says. No. It's the last part of

19 paragraph 2, sorry. This is what it says. [In English] "Info received

20 indicates that BSA have accepted to assist with food and water."

21 [Interpretation] Do you know that two water tanks arrived in

22 Potocari? Do you know of that?

23 A. I wasn't there when they got -- if they got there. I haven't seen

24 them. The only thing I saw was a UN water facility.

25 Q. Now that you have this document in front of your eyes, in

Page 2919

1 paragraph 3, do you see, "[In English] With regard to the fuel situation

2 in the enclave, MSF have 800 litres, UNHCR 6.000 litres."

3 [Interpretation] Do you know that the UNHCR had fuel?

4 A. I wasn't aware of that.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness now

6 1D35, please. Can we turn to page 2, please? It was the end of the

7 fourth paragraph which is the first paragraph on this page.

8 Q. Please, can you read this. "[In English] Potocari has not been

9 cut by the Serbs and thus water is available for the people." For your

10 information this is a document sent by Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on the 12th

11 of July 1995. Does this remind you of the fact that there was water in

12 the Potocari compound?

13 A. Is there a question for me?

14 Q. Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're being invited to accept the proposition that

16 there was water in Potocari, there was no short -- in the compound, that

17 there was no shortage of it, in other words.

18 THE WITNESS: Well, the only thing I see are reports that I've

19 seen for the first time. The only thing I know is that we had water in

20 cans and we were able to make fresh water from the water which was in the

21 rivers, and that it took a lot of diesel and a lots of time to make clear

22 drinkable water for us. That's the only thing I know. I don't know

23 whether there was BSA support by giving water to the refugees. I haven't

24 seen that. The only thing I saw was that we were running out of our own

25 water that was in cans and could be made of water just in the river, but

Page 2920

1 as I stated, that was my condition at that time.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, you testified about the "White House." Is it fair to say

4 that all you said about the "White House" happened on the 13th of July

5 1995?

6 A. The same day that I left with my convoy and didn't return after

7 the night with the Bosnian Serbs. If that is the 13th, then it's the

8 13th.

9 Q. Can it be said that on the 12th of July 1995, you didn't see

10 anybody in the "White House"?

11 A. I have no recollection of that because I was escorting the first

12 convoy, and there was General Mladic with us, he had some bread,

13 photographs and press with him. So the first convoy was going as planned

14 and with normal groups of women and children inside the buses.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you require, Ms. Fauveau?

16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I should be finished by the break,

17 another three or four questions, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Haynes, you will have left

19 45 hours between you. Do you think you would be able -- 45 minutes, yes.

20 MR. HAYNES: I would hope to complete my entire cross-examination

21 for the case in 45 hours but we will do our best to finish today.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please, I appeal to you to do that. I

23 don't know if there is re-examination. Not at this moment, I see. Let's

24 proceed, Madam Fauveau.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

Page 2921

1 Q. Yes. You personally, and I'm only asking you about what you were

2 able to see on the 12th of July, you did not witness the separation of the

3 men from the women, did you?

4 A. I did not on that day.

5 Q. On the 12th of July, in the morning of that day, when

6 Major Franken warned you that you would have to leave with the convoy, you

7 stated on the 18th of October that in fact Major Franken wanted to put one

8 man into each bus but that had not been allowed by the Serbs. That is

9 what you testified on page 94 on the 18th of October. Do you remember

10 this statement of yours?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Isn't it fair to say that indeed DutchBat did not have enough men

13 to place one soldier on board each and every bus?

14 A. There were a lot of DutchBat troops who didn't have a fighting

15 assignment. There were cooks, there were mechanics and I don't know how

16 many soldiers we had left but there were a lot of them inside the enclave

17 but they were not the fighting infantry soldiers. So technically, it

18 could have been happened of course when 12 buses drive all the way to

19 Kladanj and go back again.

20 Q. Were you present when one of the members of the Dutch -- of the

21 Serbian authorities told Major Franken that he could not -- he was not

22 allowed to put one man into each bus?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When Major Franken informed you of your task, that is that you

25 were going to escort the convoys, you testified that the evacuation had

Page 2922

1 not yet started but isn't it fair to say that the buses had not yet

2 arrived in Potocari at that time?

3 A. The only thing I can say is that I had to go to Major Franken and

4 that he asked me to get ready, and I don't know whether he said that a few

5 hours before or when the buses exactly arrived at the enclave, but we were

6 surprised that there were buses coming into the enclave.

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

8 2D24? Page 2, please. The paragraph starting with the words, "12th of

9 July 1995."

10 Q. Sir, would you mind reading this, "[In English] [Previous

11 translation continues] ... 12 men in the conference hall who might be

12 needed to escort the transports of refugees. Maletic, I think it was

13 Mladic, was in the district at this time with a film crew. Then buses

14 suddenly arrived and there was not really any time to negotiate."

15 [Interpretation] Sir, would you agree that the buses arrived after

16 Major Franken informed you of your task to accompany the buses?

17 A. That's what it said.

18 Q. And when you spoke with Major Franken on that morning, did he give

19 you the order to assist in the evacuation?

20 A. He ordered me to follow the bus and to let headquarters of

21 DutchBat know where the buses went to because they didn't have any control

22 of the route the buses were taken. So that's the only thing I can say, we

23 had to follow the bus, and radio contact the observation post telling

24 where the buses went.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

Page 2923

1 2D19? This is the statement made to the OTP on the 24th of October 1995.

2 Page 4, third paragraph.

3 Q. Sir, can you see this first sentence in paragraph 3, "[In English]

4 I received the order to help evacuate the refugees."

5 A. I see that.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Would you allow for the fact that you might have

7 received that order on the 12th of July 1995?

8 A. Well, I wasn't helping the evacuation or deportation. I was

9 ordered to report where they were going to so I didn't help them getting

10 into the buses, I didn't help them to get a new bus. The only thing I did

11 was to make sure that those women and children inside the buses went to a

12 destination where they could go to Bosnian Muslim area so I didn't help

13 the Bosnian Serb army with the evacuation. So it wasn't written down

14 properly, in order that to help them getting into the bus or to show them

15 the way where they had to go to.

16 Q. You escorted a first convoy which did arrive at its destination

17 and the people left the buses there, didn't they?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Is it fair to say that you stayed there for an hour or so?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. During this one hour you spent there, did you see Major Boering

22 leave with the Muslim refugees?

23 A. No. He left already, because I had this bus with the engine

24 trouble, and I -- when I got there, the first women and children were

25 walking their way to a Muslim area.

Page 2924

1 Q. And when you arrived at your destination, were there some

2 Serbian -- Serb soldiers there?

3 A. A few, yes.

4 Q. And the Serbian soldier does not mistreat anybody, did they?

5 A. I haven't witnessed that.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir. No

7 further questions, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

9 We'll have a 25-minute break, and then after that, hopefully we

10 will be able to finish with your testimony today. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You're now going to be examined by Mr. Josse

14 who is representing General Gvero. Mr. Josse.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:

16 Q. You've already told us that were you were commander of 3rd Platoon

17 of Charlie Company. I want to ask you whether you were aware at any time

18 in 1995 of a crew from Charlie Company having been attacked by Muslim

19 forces at -- overwhelmed by them and having their weapons taken.

20 A. Could you be more specific? Is there a date?

21 Q. Well, I don't think I can. I get this for your information from

22 something that Mr. Franken in fact mentioned. I suspect it was hearsay

23 inasmuch as he had no firsthand knowledge of it but anyone who is

24 interested it's page 2585 of the transcript. And I don't think he gave a

25 specific date when he was asked about it. So I can't help any more than

Page 2925

1 that, I'm afraid. Do you have any knowledge of it, as a platoon commander

2 within Charlie Company?

3 A. I have no knowledge of that, I'm sorry.

4 Q. Fine. Next point I'd like to ask you about is, you were shown a

5 video earlier today of a mortar being fired from a disused petrol station

6 in Srebrenica. I want to ask you about that -- that video depicts events

7 on the 10th of July. You were there on the 11th of July. I'm right in

8 saying that men of fighting age assembled in the vicinity of the

9 Srebrenica petrol station on that day, the 11th of July, after which they

10 departed in a northwesterly direction. Do you have any recollection of

11 that?

12 A. Well, at that day, at that time, I wasn't there nearby the gas

13 station. So is the question for me that I -- if I have witnessed this?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I haven't witnessed it.

16 Q. I'd like to show you D225, please, which is your debriefing notes

17 of the 11th of September of 1995, page 10. We can see the third paragraph

18 down, "In the meantime, the men of fighting age were assembling in the

19 vicinity of Srebrenica petrol station."

20 That suggests, Lieutenant Colonel, and I put it no more highly

21 than that, that you actually witnessed that happening, does it not?

22 A. What I saw at that time was women, children and also men who were

23 there but I haven't actually -- when you have me have a look at the video,

24 there is -- is there a connection between the video and your question,

25 because that's what you're referring to?

Page 2926

1 Q. Well, only inasmuch as I wanted to make sure we are talking about

2 the same place, namely the petrol station. Perhaps another way of

3 locating this petrol station is that it was very near Bravo Company?

4 A. It was, yes.

5 Q. Yes. That's the connection. Let me make it clear, lest you or

6 anyone else think I'm trying to confuse you, the video I understand was

7 taken on the 10th of July. The event that I have referred you to in your

8 debriefing notes are the 11th of July.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Any comment?

11 A. Only thing I can say is that I was at the front of the refugees

12 going from Potocari -- excuse me, from Srebrenica to Potocari, and all the

13 vehicles that were left behind on the command of Captain Hageman. They

14 stayed there and they tried to follow the last refugees to the north. So

15 when there is any men who are meeting each other nearby the petrol

16 station, it's not what I've seen happening but what others told me that

17 happened.

18 Q. On the 11th of July, were you personally in the Srebrenica

19 hospital?

20 A. I was not.

21 Q. How far is the hospital from the petrol station?

22 A. I don't know exactly. It is in the neighbourhood.

23 Q. Did you ever visit the hospital at any stage?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. You therefore have no firsthand knowledge as to what happened to

Page 2927

1 the petrol -- to the hospital on the 11th of July?

2 A. The only thing that I can declare about that is that people

3 working for Medecins Sans Frontieres, I don't know there is an English

4 word for that, they were asking me whether I could take the ill and

5 wounded people from the hospital on the APC towards Potocari. They

6 brought them to me and I drove with them to the north.

7 Q. Did you receive any information as to any attack of any sort on

8 the hospital?

9 A. I have to look it up. Not that I can recall right now.

10 Q. I don't want to be unfair. Look it up where?

11 A. In the statement you're presenting to me. Did you find it in my

12 statement?

13 Q. I haven't but I'm not suggesting that it may not be there.

14 A. Okay. So I don't recall that at this time.

15 Q. All right. I'll come back to that in one moment's time because I

16 have one or two other questions I want to ask you about the wounded in

17 general. But before I do that, could I just ask you about another thing

18 that you may have heard rather than seen? Did you hear a rumour on the

19 14th of July or thereabouts that some refugees had died in the compound at

20 Potocari?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what did you hear about that?

23 A. What I heard was that they were buried there on the compound.

24 Q. And from whom did that information come?

25 A. Well, as you said, that was the story that was going on. I

Page 2928

1 haven't seen the graves.

2 Q. It related, did it not, to six refugees, the rumour?

3 A. I don't recall the number, sorry.

4 Q. Have a look, please, at D224. I may have got the numbering wrong

5 here, in which case I'm going to deal with this differently because I want

6 to move on. I have an undated debriefing of yours in which you had said,

7 quote -- that is the right document. Page 4, please. About a third of

8 the way down, it says, "He heard that six refugees had died at the

9 compound. These dead refugees may have been buried in the vicinity of the

10 compound." So that basically is what you've just told us, isn't it, that

11 you do make reference to the number 6 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was there any rumour as to how these people had died?

14 A. No.

15 Q. None at all?

16 A. Not -- the rumour didn't reach me.

17 Q. And I simply want to deal with your state of knowledge at the

18 time, that's why I'm going to ask this question. Were you making at that

19 time any assumption as to how they had died?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Fine. I'll move on. As I say I want to return if I may briefly

22 to this issue of the wounded. You have told us that you didn't go to the

23 hospital. MSF brought to you the wounded and you were able to effectively

24 escort them to Potocari; is that correct?

25 A. I would replace the word escort into bringing them to Potocari.

Page 2929

1 They were on my APC.

2 Q. And the occupants of the hospital included the sick and ill as

3 opposed to people who had been wounded?

4 A. Well, in my statements, it says the ill and wounded but I can't

5 recall that there were wounded people. Their bodies were complete, as I

6 recall it, yes.

7 Q. I think that's fair, if I may say, because perhaps the easiest

8 way to deal with this at page 2261 of your evidence in the Krstic trial,

9 you confirmed in the course of cross-examination that, "There were only

10 sick people as well as mentally ill people as well as women who were

11 carrying babies on my vehicle, and I don't know whether there were wounded

12 from shelling which happened from the 6th of July," which I think

13 clarifies what you've just said.

14 A. Thank you for that.

15 Q. So these wounded people --

16 A. We just called them ill people.

17 Q. I beg your pardon. Thank you very much. Arrive in Potocari and

18 we know that, and I am now going to use the word wounded because that's

19 the word that has been used elsewhere in this trial, wounded people left

20 Potocari on the 17th of July. Were you involved in any of the

21 negotiations that led up to those people leaving?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. Did you have anything to do between the 11th of July and the 17th

24 of July with people who were either ill or wounded and were in Potocari?

25 A. The only thing I did was to bring the people from the APC towards

Page 2930

1 the hospital inside the compound at the headquarters UN. That's the only

2 thing I did.

3 Q. And do you have any knowledge of these ill or wounded people being

4 handed over to the ICRC?

5 A. I only know that they have left the headquarters of DutchBat at

6 any time after all the refugees have left but I don't know whether they

7 were handed over to another organisation.

8 Q. So you're confirming you literally had no involvement in those

9 events at all?

10 A. I'm sorry, no.

11 Q. Finally I should have asked you this, going back if I may to the

12 10th and 11th of July, and the evacuation of the Srebrenica hospital, did

13 any information get to you from the MSF or any other source that people

14 had been killed in the hospital as a result of shelling?

15 A. I wasn't informed about that.

16 Q. You were not informed about that?

17 A. No.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse. And finally we have got

20 Mr. Haynes, who is appearing for Mr. Pandurevic. Try to leave us about

21 five minutes, Mr. Haynes. Not five hours. Thank you.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

23 Q. Mr. Egbers, can we agree please that the day of the NATO air

24 strikes was the 11th of July?

25 A. We can.

Page 2931

1 Q. And that was the day after two members of your crew had been

2 injured with shrapnel?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that was the second day that you went to position B 1 in the

5 south of the enclave?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you'll agree with me, won't you, then, that the first day you

8 went to position B 1 in the south of the enclave was the 9th of July and

9 you were there for three days, not the 8th of July, as you said in chief?

10 A. Well, the night that Raviv van Renssen died, that was the 8th of

11 July. I got the order to go to the south and then at the end of the day

12 during the night I had to go to Bravo 1 and I counted that few hours of

13 day July 8 as day number 1, and we stayed overnight there so --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: He explained that before.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

17 Q. Now, the position that you took up, B 1, was on the red road that

18 went south from Srebrenica to Zelani Jadar, wasn't it?

19 A. I don't know whether the road was red.

20 Q. It was an asphalt road.

21 A. No, it wasn't.

22 Q. It was a made road rather than a dirt track or anything like that?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. But I thought it was yellow on the map.

Page 2932

1 Q. Well, I'm going to have a map put on the ELMO in front of you --

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. -- in the hope that you can help us as to where position B 1 was?

4 A. I will. So it's not on the red but in the yellow and it's on the

5 second angle. Can you see that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, one moment, for the

7 record, the witness indicates a spot to the south of the winding road on

8 the map which is immediately at 10 minutes from the number 448, which

9 appears above Bajramovici, between Stupina on the map.

10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

11 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I really don't mind if he marks the

12 map. I can bear the expense.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you can mark the map.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And could you put there then the -- what that

16 indicates? B 1.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And sign your signature or your initials, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 And you will tender this later, Mr. Haynes.

22 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

23 Q. Was that a position that was predetermined you should go to or was

24 it a position you chose yourself to take?

25 A. It was a position Captain Groen and I agreed as a position to have

Page 2933

1 a clear view in the south of the enclave. So I knew the position because

2 it was the way to OP Alpha and I drove it a lot and he also indicated that

3 that was the best spot for the blocking position.

4 Q. And when you took up that position you found yourself 40 metres

5 away from a Muslim artillery battery, that's correct, isn't it?

6 A. On the 9th of July, yes.

7 Q. Did that surprise you or were you expecting to find that battery

8 there?

9 A. It surprised me.

10 Q. And whilst you were there, you came under fire?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. I'm not unnecessarily through constraint of time going to call up

13 documents to show you but what you said in your witness statement was

14 there were five shells fired at you in succession. Do you stand by that?

15 A. At least.

16 Q. I'm sorry?

17 A. There were at least five shells.

18 Q. Well, I may have to show you your witness statement what you said

19 is five shells were fired at you in succession. Was that right or wrong

20 what you said on the 24th of October 1995?

21 A. I was shelled several times, so do you indicate the first shelling

22 or the second shelling?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan?

24 MS. SOLJAN: I believe it would be a good idea to show the witness

25 what he was referring to.

Page 2934

1 MR. HAYNES: It's 2D19.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed with showing the witness the relative

3 document, please.

4 MR. HAYNES: It's page 3.

5 Q. Read it from the top. It's the sentence that begins at the end of

6 the third line.

7 Now that you've refreshed your memory do you recall that five

8 shots were fired in succession?

9 A. Well, this refers to the first shelling. It says they fired five

10 times in succession, but after that, we had another order to come back and

11 we got shelled again.

12 Q. Well, I'm really only concerned with --

13 A. These five.

14 Q. -- the position you took on the 9th of July. Were you fired upon

15 five times?

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Do you agree with that?

18 A. I do agree with that.

19 Q. Thank you. And the result of that was that two of your men and

20 the commander of the Muslim artillery battery were injured, weren't they?

21 A. I wouldn't call it an artillery battalion -- how do you call it?

22 Q. The commander, the Muslim artillery unit, whatever. I'm not going

23 to pick a fight with you over the term. We know what we are talking

24 about.

25 A. That's correct.

Page 2935

1 Q. Two of your men and the commander of the Muslim artillery unit

2 were injured?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Were they injured by the fifth of the five shots or one in the

5 middle?

6 A. I don't know. I don't recall that.

7 Q. And after that, you removed yourself from that position to a

8 position several hundred metres lower down the hill, didn't you?

9 A. That's correct. I can point it out to you where it was if you

10 would like to.

11 Q. I'm not too worried about that at the moment?

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. In evidence-in-chief to Ms. Soljan, and for those who want a

14 reference, it was on October the 18th, page 89, lines 10 to 17, you said

15 you were in that position on the 9th of July for ten minutes. Would that

16 be right?

17 A. I was there several times that day, and during the first ten

18 minutes we got shelled. But it was on the 9th of July.

19 Q. Well, please forgive me, are you saying that you went down the

20 hill and back up again and down the hill and back up again or that you

21 were only there once and got shelled and you went back to a safe position?

22 A. Well, there were other APCs in the south and they had no radio

23 contact with the commander, OP Bravo, at the Bravo Company, so via my APC,

24 there could be radio contact but only when I was nearby Bravo 1.

25 Q. Right?

Page 2936

1 A. So that was another order so to go back to Bravo 1, although we

2 were shelled, to stay there in position.

3 Q. You'll agree with me, won't you, that that is something that's

4 plainly absent from your witness statement, if you read your witness

5 statement it appears that you were there, shot at five times, and then you

6 retreated to position several hundred metres below.

7 A. Well, as I told you, that's what we did the first time we got

8 shelled. But then afterwards, we got another order to go back into Bravo

9 1, the original position.

10 Q. Would you go down that page? According to that witness statement

11 the only order you received that day was to return to Srebrenica, wasn't

12 it?

13 A. What are you referring to? Because when I saw later on, later

14 that afternoon I saw about 50 Bosnian Serb soldiers had reached the

15 summits of Srebrenica then I was back at the original Bravo 1 site again.

16 So we got shelled we had to go to another position, had the order to come

17 back to original Bravo 1 and again and then after another shelling we even

18 had our way to the other position shelled.

19 Q. I see. So the witness statement should in fact read that you were

20 shelled five times, then you went back and got shelled some more?

21 A. We were shelled a lot.

22 Q. I see. Now, during the course of your being in position B 1, you

23 saw a Bosnian Serb tank, didn't you?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And will you agree with me I don't want you -- again to take you

Page 2937

1 through various references you only ever saw one tank?

2 A. I only saw.

3 Q. On that day, the 9th of July.

4 A. I only saw a T 54/55 entering and then leaving. I don't know

5 whether it was the same tank who was coming back again.

6 Q. You said when you gave evidence before in this Tribunal in the

7 Krstic case that that tank was about three kilometres away?

8 A. That's possible.

9 Q. I wonder whether you would be so good as to mark the position of

10 the tank on the map.

11 A. [Marks] You saw a tank coming into the enclave. I don't know the

12 exact route he took but from this position I could see all the way up here

13 to Pusmulici and to this side of the enclave. He came from east into the

14 enclave but I don't know the exact road.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you kindly write "tank" inside that rectangle,

16 please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And an arrow pointing to --

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, all right.


23 Q. I want to be clear what your evidence today, your evidence is you

24 could see a tank from that position where you were?

25 A. I could.

Page 2938

1 Q. Thank you. Did you notice its barrel position?

2 A. Could you be more specific?

3 Q. Yes. Was its barrel horizontal or pointing upwards?

4 A. Pointing upwards because we have learned that it could only fire

5 1500 metres.

6 Q. I wonder when you first learned that and from whom.

7 A. That's what we learn in the royal military academy when we all

8 learn about equipment, and it's even in a small UN book, I guess.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, Captain Groen was very concerned to know whether

10 you had been targeted by Serb fire, wasn't he?

11 A. He was.

12 Q. Because on the 9th of July, you weren't under a green order, you

13 were still under blue orders, weren't you?

14 A. I've always been under blue orders.

15 Q. And so your rules of engagement dictated that you were not allowed

16 to fire upon the Serb forces unless they targeted you directly?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. But when Captain Groen asked you whether you'd been targeted by

19 the Serb forces on the 9th of July, your answer was you couldn't confirm

20 that?

21 A. That's correct, because there was a piece of artillery nearby.

22 Q. Now, I want to move, please, to the next day, and I'm going to

23 deal with it as briefly as I can. The following day, you were required to

24 go back to B 1 at 7.00 in the morning; that's right, isn't it?

25 A. That's possible. I don't know the date and the times.

Page 2939

1 Q. Well, there was a very specific purpose to your going to B 1 on

2 the 10th of July?

3 A. That is, yes.

4 Q. There was air strike expected at 700 hours precisely?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And you went there with forward air controllers to call in that

7 air strike?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Again, when you reached B 1, you were under fire again, you say?

10 A. I don't know whether that was on 7.00 in the morning but at that

11 time we didn't had to stand on B 1 as a site because we had to install the

12 forward air controllers.

13 Q. And again you were only there for about ten minutes?

14 A. No. I wasn't. I was there for hours.

15 Q. Well, again, 2D19, please. And I'm going to take you to the lower

16 half of the page the next day, the 10th of July, and the last but one

17 paragraph.

18 A. Yes. As I told you, when you look at the other paragraph, the

19 next day, Monday, the 10th of July I returned with my group to a safe

20 place in the vicinity of the original location. That's where I stand

21 hours. And I can show it to you on the map. It's nearby and that's why

22 we didn't go all in the open because we had to have a -- forward air

23 controllers make contact to air planes.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. So I stood here. Shall I show it to you?

Page 2940

1 Q. Please.

2 A. [Marks]. I said forward air controller over there. And that's

3 where we stayed. Then we got the order to go back to the original

4 position, and that's where we got shelled again.

5 Q. Where is the safe place that you refer to?

6 A. That's what I just pointed out here at the map.

7 Q. Could you mark it "safe place," please?

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. Was the forward air controller in your APC?

10 A. He wasn't at that time.

11 Q. And to what was he intended to call air strikes?

12 A. He -- they told me and my commander at that time, that there would

13 be an air strike with a gun ship on every target in the south of the

14 enclave that's not UN. That's why we had to go back there at 7.00. So

15 the only thing he had to do was to point out where the UN vehicles were.

16 Q. He didn't have to direct the aircraft to the targets?

17 A. I don't know his exact mission. I think that within close air

18 support there is a contact between the forward air controller and the

19 planes but I don't know whether it's also in case of an air strike.

20 Q. Now, I want to be clear what you're saying about what you saw of

21 the air strikes themselves. Because you'll see on the document before you

22 that you said in your witness statement of the 24th of October of 1995

23 that two Dutch -- that the Dutch F-16s then knocked two Bosnian Serb tanks

24 out of action.

25 A. Well, that's no air strike but close air support I think and there

Page 2941

1 were two Dutch F-16s and they were pointed at a tank who was in -- near

2 Bravo 1.

3 Q. Well, what is it a tank or two tanks?

4 A. I can't recall that right now.

5 Q. Did you see the result of the air strikes?

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. Did you hear them?

8 A. I've heard an explosion and we could hear the tank moving into --

9 coming into our position because it has an engine that can be heard of

10 course, and I couldn't hear that any more so they switched it off or --

11 but it wasn't in use.

12 Q. You see, you've said a number of things about the air strikes in

13 the course of your witness statements and testimonies. In the Krstic

14 trial you said that there were two tanks which disappeared after the air

15 strikes. Is that right or wrong?

16 A. I can't recall that but the only thing I can tell you is that they

17 were not functioning at that time any more. I'm sure that they didn't

18 disappear.

19 Q. What you said to Mr. Ostojic when he was asking you questions

20 yesterday was that there was one strike which was -- one tank which

21 stopped firing at you.

22 A. Well, I didn't hear the engine running and it didn't fire at us

23 any more. So that's the only -- I can't draw a conclusion whether the

24 tank was hit, whether it was demolished or not. It didn't fire at us and

25 we could go to Srebrenica.

Page 2942

1 Q. Could you see it?

2 A. I couldn't hear it any more. I couldn't see a tank burning.

3 Q. I'd like to show you a short video clip, please, and see whether

4 this is reminiscent of anything you saw. And this is from the Srebrenica

5 trial video. 01577 at four minutes.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. Did you see vehicles like that having been destroyed on the 10th

9 of July?

10 A. I haven't seen that.

11 Q. Did you see vehicles like that in the vicinity of B 1 when you

12 were there on the 10th of July?

13 A. I haven't seen them.

14 Q. Did you see ambulances or other vehicles?

15 A. I saw ambulances but it was in the Pusmulici area.

16 Q. Moving on very, very rapidly, your platoon operated ordinarily in

17 the northwest sector of the enclave that's correct, isn't it?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Did you as it were, work exclusively there during the period

20 January to July of 1995?

21 A. I did not.

22 Q. You moved about in other parts of the enclave?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Had you ever been to the south and to Pusmulici?

25 A. I've been there in July, before the observation post fell but I

Page 2943

1 don't know whether I actually was at the village of Pusmulici. I can't

2 remember that.

3 Q. It is a village, though, isn't it?

4 A. There are houses, so it must be a village.

5 Q. It's some little distance from the main town of Srebrenica itself?

6 A. There is a difference between those small groups of houses and

7 the -- was that your question?

8 Q. You wouldn't call it, would you, a suburb of the north of

9 Srebrenica?

10 A. No. It was small, smaller than that.

11 Q. Were you only able to see Pusmulici when you were in the elevated

12 position at B 1 or could you see it still when you were down the hill in

13 your safe position?

14 A. I could see them from both positions.

15 Q. And what could you see of it?

16 A. Well, when I looked at it and I reported that there was smoke

17 coming out of the houses and there were men there and I've seen dogs but

18 that's -- that could only be seen by binocular.

19 Q. I mean, just coming to the end now, looking down at the map may

20 help you, by looking at the contours, remind yourself of the sort of

21 terrain in the area of the south of Srebrenica. You can see they place

22 contour lines together in the way the road follows the contours of the

23 hills.

24 A. And what's your question, sir?

25 Q. I'm suggesting it's not very easy to see any great distance in

Page 2944

1 that area, binoculars or no binoculars.

2 A. Well, what I saw was smoke coming out of that direction. We've

3 had a map and we assumed that it would be Pusmulici.

4 Q. Right.

5 A. Because I haven't been there.

6 Q. I just want to check that that's what your evidence is. You saw

7 smoke coming out of the houses, you had a map, and you assumed it would be

8 Pusmulici.

9 A. Because I knew where I was and I knew the distance.

10 Q. But that's the extent of what you could see, smoke coming out of

11 the house?

12 A. And people entering the houses and infantry along the houses but I

13 didn't see the fire coming out of the houses.

14 Q. Yes. Well, it's 1.40. I'm going to stop there, I think.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Haynes.

16 Is there re-examination?

17 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Any questions from the Bench? None? So there are

19 two matters that we would like to address, but both need to be addressed

20 in private session. So let's go into -- yes. In the meantime, before we

21 do so, Colonel, we have finished with you. I thank you so much on behalf

22 of the Trial Chamber for having come to give evidence, and we wish you a

23 safe journey back to wherever you're going.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So let's go into -- we can finalise the

Page 2945

1 documents first.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Defence teams, have you been given a list of the

4 documents that the Prosecution is seeking to tender through the -- this

5 witness? Do you have any objection to any of them? Mr. Ostojic?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I would object to P02025.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. And that's for the reasons that

8 you explained when the matter was first raised, or this one, the video and

9 what's the reason for your objection?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: In addition to the reasons that I cited to the court

11 before but also because we were never given any foundation of the video

12 and we were also -- from the witness's testimony as I recall it, is that

13 the witness was given this video in a suggestive manner which is improper

14 and should be prohibited to make an identification of an accused or an

15 individual. So for all those reasons that I mentioned initially and then

16 these two that it's an improper foundation, not authenticated, there is no

17 date of when this video was taken and I think the Court wasn't given

18 opportunity to look at the entirety of the video, which is splices from

19 many different videos, I think that it would be something that should not

20 be introduced in evidence and the Court should reject it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any other objections to any other of the documents

22 sought to be tendered? None?

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So the decision of the Trial Chamber in relation to

25 this P2025 is a unanimous one and it is for rejecting your objection,

Page 2946

1 Mr. Ostojic, on the basis that your allegations do not appear to be

2 founded or substantiated by any evidence and, in addition, we have taken

3 into consideration the relevance of this document. The documents that are

4 being tendered and admitted are P01664, P401661 -- 1688, PIC 19, P02025,

5 P01901, PIC 20, PIC 21, with the following 65 ter numbers, 2111. And then

6 there are Defence documents that are --

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Beara -- Mr. Ostojic, do you have any documents

9 that you wish to tender?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, 2D00019, 20, 24 and 25.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So what about 20, 21, 22 and 23?

12 MR. OSTOJIC: We will not be tendering those at this time,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Are there any objections from the

15 Prosecution in relation to 19, 24 and 25?

16 MR. OSTOJIC: 19, 20.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 19, 20, 24, and 25?

18 MS. SOLJAN: No objections, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, any other Defence team would like

20 to tender any documents? Ms. Condon?

21 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour I'd seek to

22 tender the document that was shown to Mr. Egbers that was the diagram

23 attached to his Dutch statement, that's ERN number 00353526.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any objections? No? So it is tendered

25 and will be given an identification number, Exhibit number.

Page 2947

1 Any other of the Defence teams? Mr. Haynes?

2 MR. HAYNES: The map.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The map, yes. Same applies to the map that has been

4 marked by the witness.

5 Yes, Madam Fauveau?

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 5D67 an UNMO report

7 dated 12th of July 1995, and 5D77, 5D78, 5D79 and 5D81, excerpts from the

8 NIOD report.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?

10 MS. SOLJAN: No objection, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So they are admitted. Any further? None?

12 So we can close that chapter. You will all recall -- let's go into

13 private session, please.

14 MS. SOLJAN: My apologise, Your Honour. There was an additional

15 OTP witness statement dated April 30th, 2000, which was discussed in great

16 detail by the Defence for Mr. Beara on I believe yesterday, on the 19th.

17 It is marked 2D00021 and we would like that to be admitted, in fact, since

18 it was discussed to a great extent and identified to Mr. Beara.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, if they wish to use that exhibit they should

21 have been forthright, and they weren't. And quite candidly I do object to

22 it. We asked the questions on that exhibit specifically relating to that.

23 We think it's a short exhibit. It's all on the record. I think it will

24 muddy it if the Court even looks at that exhibit. The witness even

25 references a 96 statement that apparently he gave that we still haven't

Page 2948

1 obtained, so I think it would just really confuse the record and wouldn't

2 benefit us. We have his testimony on the specific issues within that

3 exhibit. That's why I didn't think it was appropriate to offer it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it an exhibit? Is it an exhibit? Exactly. This

5 is what I -- what if it is never tendered by --

6 MR. OSTOJIC: It's not tendered by our team. What I think the

7 Court's ruling --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: How can the evidence then become intelligible if you

9 never tender it?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: I think the Court ruled on it with other exhibits.

11 You said we covered it clearly in our examination and it's not necessary

12 to have it as duplicate evidence but I'll obviously have to defer to what

13 the Court says, if you think it's necessary, but I'd like the 96

14 statement. Plus it was never asked anything in redirect by the Prosecutor

15 on this.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The position is as follows: Once it has been made

18 use of, the Prosecution has every right to seek the admission of this

19 document. So this is being admitted and then you need to take care of how

20 you number it. Nothing further? I understand Mr. McCloskey that you

21 wanted to address the Trial Chamber. I implore the staff to bear with us

22 a couple of more minutes. We'll soon be finished. Mr. McCloskey?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, just very briefly on just a

24 scheduling matter, and especially while I have everyone here, Mr. Bourgon

25 has asked to ask us to see if we could change some of our scheduling for

Page 2949

1 November because he has a very important, I think, opportunity that may

2 take him away from the place and the witnesses are very important and we

3 are endeavouring to do that and move some witnesses from November into

4 December. I think we can do that and we are making every effort to do

5 that. He much course needs -- would like to have a commitment and I will

6 give him that commitment as much as I can, and I think we will be able to

7 make it with witnesses, and we are endeavouring to, that everyone will see

8 that that will change what we filed a bit. As long as everyone is on

9 board for that, then we will continue to do it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I suggest that you finalise this

11 exercise and that you communicate it to everyone. And then we'll see but

12 of course, I think your suggestion --

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's all I needed to say.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a couple of

15 minutes.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2950











11 Page 2950 redacted. Private session.















Page 2951

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you kindly convey to the

9 registrar, your boss, the Trial Chamber's appreciation and gratitude for

10 the patience and cooperation shown by all the staff, technicians,

11 translators, and everyone else. We will reconvene on Wednesday, starting

12 with the testimony of the next witness who I suppose will be the witness

13 that will come in the afternoon. In other words you're not bringing

14 Koster before him?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. It will be Mr. Groenewegen.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

19 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.