1 Friday, 27 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam, and good afternoon to you too.
10 The accused are here. If there are problems with interpretation, please
11 let us know. Defence teams are here. There is Mr. Bourgon who is absent
12 only, as far as see. Prosecution composition as yesterday, Mr. Nicholls,
13 Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer.
14 Colonel, good afternoon. Welcome back. And we are grateful for
15 your having managed to remain at our disposal this afternoon, which
16 basically means that you've put us in a position to conclude your
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We were halfway towards the end of the
19 cross-examination by Madam Fauveau. Please go ahead. Needless to remind
20 you, Colonel, you're still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration
21 which you don't need to repeat every time you enter the courtroom. So
22 Madam Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 WITNESS: EELCO CHRISTIAN MARTIN JODOCUS KOSTER
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau: [Continued]
3 Q. Colonel Koster, is it fair to say that when the refugees were in
4 Potocari were able to have a shower?
5 A. As far as I remember, the refugees had the opportunity to wash
6 themselves on the compound. I'm not sure whether they were able to take a
7 shower but they did have the opportunity to wash.
8 Q. Is it also fair to say that the refugees were fed, were given
9 something to eat?
10 A. The refugees received food on the compound. Outside the compound
11 the refugees did not receive food.
12 Q. Isn't it fair to say that Serbs gave bread and water to the
14 A. That's correct. But I thought you were asking about what they
15 received from the DutchBat.
16 Q. However, in spite of the food given by the DutchBat, in spite of
17 the bread brought by the Serbs, can it be said that the food available was
18 not enough for the refugees to stay there very long?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Can we therefore say that the refugees had to be transported
21 somewhere else?
22 A. I'm not in a position to conclude that.
23 Q. At any rate, the refugees did not have their houses in Potocari,
24 did they?
25 A. The refugees came from the enclave in Srebrenica to Potocari.
1 That's true.
2 Q. They couldn't therefore stay in Potocari, could they?
3 A. I don't know that they couldn't stay in Potocari. It was not
4 their original place of residence.
5 Q. Is it fair to say that no refugee said to you that they wanted to
6 stay in Potocari?
7 A. I don't remember anybody telling me that at that point in time.
8 Q. Yesterday, in -- on page 3096 in the French transcript, that when
9 the refugees left, their personal belongings stayed along the road, on the
10 road but also in the compound. Is it fair to say that the refugees left
11 the compound on the 13th of July?
12 A. As far as I remember, the majority of the refugees did indeed
13 leave the compound on July 13.
14 Q. Could you tell us when DutchBat left Potocari?
15 A. I don't know the exact date at this time. I believe it was a week
16 or a week and a half later.
17 Q. Before they left Potocari, I'm thinking of DutchBat members, not
18 of you personally, did you tidy up, did you clean up, as to the personal
19 belongings left by the refugees?
20 A. Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that I or one of my
21 people cleared up their possessions? Because that's not the case.
22 Q. If it wasn't the case, the belongings the refugees had left in the
23 compound, were they still in the compound when you left it?
24 A. Don't remember that. I indicated yesterday that I don't know who
25 removed the items and whether they were still there.
1 Q. However, during that week that you stayed in Potocari after most
2 of the refugees had left, who else was there in the Potocari compound
3 apart from you? Were there any other people in the compound?
4 A. The members of the armed forces who were in the enclave at that
5 time and were serving there.
6 Q. Were they then in the Potocari compound, within the compound?
7 A. As far as I remember, yes.
8 Q. At any rate you don't know what happened to the personal
9 belongings left by the refugees, do you?
10 A. No, I don't remember that.
11 Q. On the 25th of October, page 3027 of the French transcript, you
12 said this: The bodies that we found were the bodies of people who had
13 been shot in the back. I'd like to know this: Were you able to see how
14 big the wound was -- how big the wounds were?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How big were they? Could you tell us?
17 A. Yes. I remember that I thought that the wounded area was
18 surrounded by blood and the injury looked like a bullet had entered there
19 and the diameter of the wound including the blood was probably
20 approximately two to three centimetres.
21 Q. Is it fair to say that these bodies had clothes on?
22 A. Yes. They were dressed.
23 Q. So you were able to see the damage on the clothing, not -- you
24 didn't see the wounds themselves, did you?
25 A. I could see the wound on some of the victims.
1 Q. Does that mean that they were not clothed or did you remove their
3 A. It was visible through the clothes. Apparently the clothes were
4 slightly removed from the wound.
5 Q. Do you know the difference between a wound caused by an exit wound
6 and the difference -- and the opposite, entry wound?
7 A. Yes. I know the difference.
8 Q. Could you describe to us what an entry wound looks like?
9 A. An entry wound is small in diameter and in any case smaller than
10 an exit wound. Often exit wounds are rougher.
11 Q. Were you close to the bodies, and when you were, if you were close
12 to the bodies, did you look at the wounds from close-up?
13 A. I didn't touch them. I examined the bodies while I was standing
14 next to them, and that's how I examined the wounds.
15 Q. So how can you be sure that they were entry wounds?
16 A. The wound appeared small, as far as the entrance opening was
18 Q. Could you tell us what the diameter was of the wounds?
19 A. The wounds that I examined, I just described them. Wherever the
20 wound was clearly visible, the diameter was roughly one centimetre.
21 Q. You stated that the bodies were in a row. Were you able to
22 determine whether the bodies had been moved once the people had been
24 A. I wasn't able to determine that, no.
25 Q. You also stated that you found documents next to the bodies.
1 Yesterday you testified that you were not able to read them. I'd like to
2 know this: Were you not able to understand what was on the paper or did
3 you not recognise the handwriting or the script?
4 A. No. It was because of the language in which they were written.
5 Q. Is it fair to say that when the refugees arrived in Potocari, they
6 were mostly women, children and elderly people?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know where the men went, the able-bodied men, or the
9 military, from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you know where they
11 A. No, I didn't know it at that time.
12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that there was fighting between the
13 Muslim military and the Serb military on the 12th of July, in the
14 enclave -- 12th and the 13th of July?
15 A. I received information about that at the time.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Mr. Krgovic?
20 Mr. Krgovic is representing General Gvero here and he will be
21 cross-examining you now. Go ahead.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. I'll ask you some questions that have to
24 do with the statement that you provided to the Prosecutor's Office, and
25 this statement was provided on the 25th and 26th September 1995. My
1 questions will be about an event that you described in that statement.
2 Do you remember that towards the end of January 1995, Muslim
3 fighters captured 100 members of the United Nations in the area called
4 Bandera Trougao and they kept them hostage for a few days and they lived
5 in very bad conditions during that time?
6 A. Yes. I remember that.
7 Q. Only after the negotiations that Colonel Karremans conducted with
8 Naser Oric were these people let go; do you remember that?
9 A. No. I don't know what the course of the negotiations was or with
10 whom they were conducted. I don't remember that.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: Can the witness be shown Exhibit 1D44? Page 3.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, this is in the third paragraph from the
13 beginning and the sentence starts with, "[In English] That the
14 negotiations were conducted with Naser Oric, the commander of the Muslim
15 forces." [Interpretation] Did you find that?
16 A. Yes. I saw the passage, and I believe that I remembered it better
17 at the time than I do now.
18 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Could you please tell me whether, when these
19 people were captured, the Muslim fighters did not leave them a possibility
20 to go back to the base but, rather, kept them in custody until their final
21 release? Is that correct?
22 A. I don't understand the question. Would you please ask the
23 question again?
24 Q. When these soldiers were kept on that day, the Muslim fighters
25 would not let them go back to the base but, rather, kept them there? In
1 other words, they didn't have a choice whether they could go back to the
2 base once they entered that forbidden territory. That choice was not
3 given to them. They could not opt for returning to the base. They were
4 kept there.
5 A. As far as I remember, they were indeed held at that site.
6 Q. Colonel, let me remind you of another detail that you mentioned in
7 your statement. We are talking about one part of page 4 of this
8 statement, the penultimate paragraph thereof. The beginning is, "[In
9 English] Was provoked." "[Interpretation] Muslim fighters would take up
10 the positions at the observation post at night and would fire in the
11 direction of the Serbs. The Serb fighters would then respond by firing
12 back." Do you remember these events and also do you remember having
13 stated that in your statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Colonel, you were in the Potocari base on the 11th of July because
16 you mentioned that shells were falling around the base, in the vicinity of
17 the base. You stated that yesterday in your testimony. Do you remember
19 A. Yes. I remember that.
20 Q. At that time, when you were at the base, across the road from the
21 Papa, did you have another observation point in the building with a
22 machine-gun nest which was manned by your soldiers? Let me rephrase the
23 question. I'm referring to the base itself. Was there an observation
24 point in one of the buildings at the base which faced the observation
25 point Papa, and if indeed there was an observation point in that building,
1 was it manned by your soldiers, by UN soldiers?
2 A. As far as I remember, it was manned, yes.
3 Q. And from that point, one could see the surroundings of the base
4 and the road leading northward?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During that day, the 11th of July, did you spend any time at that
7 place? Did you ever climb the stairs to go to the second floor of that
9 A. I don't remember that.
10 Q. Colonel, if I were to tell you that a member of your unit
11 testified before this Trial Chamber and said that on the 11th of July, he
12 saw Muslim fighters in several groups opening fire from several mortars
13 towards the Serb positions and then withdrawing, and that these mortar
14 units were deployed around the base, to the left and to the right and to
15 the north, would you accept that testimony as being accurate?
16 A. I didn't see that personally so I can't accept that statement for
17 that reason.
18 Q. Did anybody report to you about that? Did you ever hear anything
19 about that? Did you hear that the fact that fire had been opened resulted
20 in the shelling of the positions of the Muslim fighters by the Serb
22 A. Do you still mean on the 11th of June?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. July. Excuse me, the 11th of July. That morning, I saw -- I
25 heard various reports about fighting that was taking place but I don't
1 remember them in detail.
2 Q. Colonel, now I'm going to ask you something else that arises from
3 your statement. I'm referring to page 6 -- I apologise, page 7, paragraph
4 3 from the bottom of the page. And the sentence starts with the following
5 words. Page 7. "[English] The Serbian soldiers." "[Interpretation] The
6 Serbian soldiers approached the post and told my fellow soldiers that they
7 were coming to take the post. My fellow soldiers were given the choice of
8 returning to the compound or of driving into the Serbian territory." Do
9 you remember these events?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What you have stated here corresponds to the best of your
12 recollection of the events?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Colonel, when you provided the statement, when you were debriefed
15 on your return from Srebrenica, you stated that you were present during
16 the negotiations between Major Franken and a Serbian Colonel. Amongst
17 other things, they discussed the upcoming evacuation of the DutchBat and
18 some other things. Can you remember that meeting?
19 A. Yes. I remember this meeting. At the time I was not seated at
20 the table. I was basically the liaison between Mr. Franken, and the rest
21 of the battalion did not want to be disturbed.
22 Q. Do you remember that at that meeting, an agreement was reached on
23 the evacuation of the wounded who had remained in the compound in
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And these wounded men were handed over to the Red Cross on the
2 17th of July and on that day they left the base; is that correct? Do you
3 remember that?
4 A. I know that people were handed over, but I don't remember the
5 exact date any more.
6 Q. To the Red Cross? This is what you stated in your statement. I'm
7 just reminding you of that. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. I do remember it happening that way.
9 Q. Colonel, let me take you back to a question that was put to you by
10 my learned colleague Fauveau who asked you about separation. Was there a
11 case in Potocari that women were separated from other women, that a woman
12 was not allowed to get on a bus? Were there such cases?
13 A. I don't remember that.
14 Q. One more topic and I'm drawing to an end of my cross-examination.
15 As far as I could understand you, you were a logistics officer. Did I
16 understand your testimony well?
17 A. During the deployment as it was proceeding normally, that was
18 true, and afterwards I received additional duties.
19 Q. I'm talking about the period before the conflict broke out in
20 Srebrenica, so I'm talking about the period from the time that you arrived
21 to early June 1995.
22 A. That's correct. At that time, I was indeed active as the
23 logistics officer.
24 Q. And as such, you knew about the quantity of fuel that the DutchBat
25 had at its disposal and what the requirements were for fuel; is that
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. In that period that I just mentioned, did you ever receive a
4 request from your immediate superior or from the army of Republika Srpska
5 what the monthly requirements or the monthly expenditures of fuel were of
7 A. No. I don't remember that.
8 Q. Do you know if any of your subordinates or superiors provided such
9 information to the command or the army of Republika Srpska at their
11 A. Not to my knowledge. I don't remember that.
12 Q. Do you know that with the last fuel delivery to DutchBat, a
13 certain amount of that fuel was given to the army of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina and that there was a protest from the Serb side because of
16 A. Would you please repeat who delivered the fuel to whom? That was
18 Q. The last fuel delivery received by DutchBat, a certain quantity
19 from that contingent was provided to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 A. Are you asking me whether I know about that or are you asking me
21 who did that?
22 Q. Do you know about that?
23 A. I don't remember that.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes? Mr. Haynes is representing
1 Colonel Pandurevic or General Pandurevic. Perhaps before Mr. Haynes
2 starts with his questions, perhaps there was one further question, it was
3 a compound question basically, but one part of it has remained unanswered.
4 One question was whether you heard, whether you at any time became aware
5 that part of the final consignment ended up or was provided to the BiH
6 army. The other one related to a formal complaint which supposedly was
7 made by the Serbian, Bosnian Serb authorities. Are you aware of any such
8 complaint ever?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that,
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Colonel.
12 Mr. Haynes?
13 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
15 Q. Mr. Koster, in 1995, you were a Lieutenant in the 13th Airborne
16 Battalion, that's correct, isn't it?
17 A. The 13th Battalion, that's correct, yes.
18 Q. And that was an infantry battalion?
19 A. That's correct. I was an infantryman myself.
20 Q. Thank you. Well, you've answered my next question. You were, as
21 you've told Mr. Krgovic, the commander in charge of logistics. Was that a
22 position you held at the base at Assen or was it one that you assumed
23 after arriving in Srebrenica?
24 A. No. I also had that position in Assen.
25 Q. Thank you very much. In 1995, you were 26 years of age. You
1 agree with that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in Srebrenica, your immediate superior was Colonel Franken,
4 the deputy commanding officer for the battalion?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Prior to your tour of duty in Srebrenica, had you ever had any
7 combat or wartime experience?
8 A. No. I had not previously been in a war situation. Only in
10 Q. And would that have been true of many of, if not all of, the men
11 under your command?
12 A. That would be true for the majority. Some of them served in
13 Lebanon and experienced fighting there as well.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, as logistics officer, would you agree that you
15 were responsible for ensuring that the battalion had everything it needed
16 to function efficiently?
17 A. Would you please repeat the question?
18 Q. Certainly. Would you agree that the logistics officer is
19 responsible for ensuring that the battalion has everything it needs to
20 function efficiently?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that includes food, transport, clothing, weaponry, and fuel?
23 A. Yes. Those are things that are necessary for the battalion to
25 Q. Thank you. And would you agree that during your tour of duty in
1 Srebrenica, it was your view as logistics officer that the morale of the
2 battalion was good?
3 A. Well, that varied from the point when people had to subsist for
4 longer periods of time on combat rations, their morale would diminish,
5 but -- and then there was the rejection of leave convoys. That also
6 dampened the mood, although it was still possible to function.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, your base as logistics officer was at Potocari,
8 wasn't it?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And did you have an office there?
11 A. We shared an office.
12 Q. And in the office that you shared, were records kept, for example,
13 of the receipt of fuel and its disbursement?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And were those records that comprised both documents and computer
17 A. Yes. We used computers there, and we used paper.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, as commander of logistics, were you responsible
19 for the maintenance of those records?
20 A. Very generally yes. I didn't do it personally. My people did
22 Q. What, people under your command?
23 A. People who were part of my logistics division, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, on the 11th of July, you went to Potocari. Did
25 you go to the office that you shared?
1 A. When the shelling and the fighting started, I did indeed return to
2 the office I shared to draft a clearance request. I did that together
3 with Major Franken during the shelling, but I don't remember whether that
4 was the 10th or the 11th.
5 Q. Well, whatever day it was, were the computers still intact and the
6 paper records still intact?
7 A. Some of the papers had been taken to the bunkers but the ones that
8 I needed to amend the request, that's what needed to be done at that
9 point, and to print it out, those were available. I was able to amend the
10 request there.
11 Q. How many Dutch soldiers, in your estimation, were present at
12 Potocari during the 11th and 12th of July?
13 A. I'd have to give you a very rough estimate. I estimate that there
14 were about 150 or 200.
15 Q. And how many refugees, in your rough estimate, did they have to
16 deal with during those two days?
17 A. Which two days?
18 Q. The 11th and 12th of July.
19 A. Well, my rough estimate is that on the compound there were about
20 4.000 to 5.000 people. Outside the compound, there were far more. So on
21 the -- if there are 4.000 to 5.000 people on the compound, they were being
22 helped by my men and there were several people outside the compound as
24 Q. Now, all your logistics records were destroyed, weren't they?
25 A. I know that most of the documents and records were destroyed. I
1 don't know whether everything was destroyed.
2 Q. Was that on your order?
3 A. No, because when those orders arrived, I was active outside the
4 compound as commander for the reception of refugees.
5 Q. Do you know whose order it was to destroy those documents?
6 A. That would have been either Major Franken or Lieutenant Colonel
8 Q. And do you know when the order was given and when it was executed?
9 A. I don't know when the order was issued. I know it was executed
10 when it became clear that the Serb military intended to enter the
12 Q. Can you really not help us with the date?
13 A. It must have been the day that the Bosnian Serb military arrived.
14 And that would have been on the 12th of July.
15 Q. Can you help us as to why it was so important that fuel
16 disbursement records, for example, were destroyed at that moment in time?
17 A. Those data were part of operational information, and we didn't
18 want those to fall into the hands of the adversary.
19 Q. Is that correct? Or is there not a distinction between logistics
20 information and operational information?
21 A. The distinction exists but there is an overlap when we are dealing
22 with information about weapons and ammunition which are also logistics
23 data. If I surrender those then it also reveals something about my
24 operations and you don't want to do that.
25 Q. I'm going to move on. Your second sphere of responsibility was as
1 commander of the battalion reserve. That's correct, isn't it?
2 A. Yes. I did that temporarily.
3 Q. Help me. On my reading of your debriefing document, the battalion
4 reserve was created in about late May or early June of 1995. Is that
6 A. I think that's about right. I'd have to reread my statement to
7 see what the exact date was.
8 Q. It's probably not important, but it was about that time, and under
9 your command would have been, for example, Captain Groen?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it he who succeeded you when you ceased to be commander of the
12 battalion reserve on the 11th of July?
13 A. No. Captain Groen was the commander of Bravo Company, and I was
14 succeeded by somebody else.
15 Q. Thank you. Anyway, as commander of the battalion reserve during
16 June of 1995, were you deployed on a number of occasions to the south of
17 the enclave?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was the purpose of that so that you could familiarise yourself
20 with the terrain there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm going to show you a section of video now, if I may, because I
23 imagine it's some little while since you've seen the south of Srebrenica.
24 This is P01514. It's the Ruez trial video, south to Srebrenica. Would
25 you watch it then I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. HAYNES: That will do.
3 Q. Just two questions. I hope that reminded you of the terrain to
4 the south of Srebrenica. Did it?
5 A. No. That's the first time I've seen a helicopter view.
6 Q. Well, would you agree with me that access and egress to and from
7 the south of Srebrenica by vehicle can only be achieved by road?
8 A. From which direction do you mean? Do you mean from the enclave or
9 from outside the enclave?
10 Q. I mean from outside the enclave, getting into Srebrenica from the
11 south. The only way to get there in a vehicle is by road?
12 A. It depends on how you want to do that.
13 Q. Well, did you take your APCs across those hills we've just seen in
14 that helicopter shot or did you stay on the road with them?
15 A. I stayed on the road in my APC.
16 Q. And did you see any feasible possibility to travel across country
17 in your APC or was travelling on the road the only feasible possibility?
18 A. If you are referring to the roads, I would prefer to stay on the
19 road. That's in armoured vehicles.
20 Q. Thank you very much. The second question I want to ask you about
21 the terrain to the south of the enclave is about fields of vision. Your
22 fields of vision in the south of the enclave are extremely limited by the
23 mountainous terrain, aren't they?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on.
1 When you were deployed to the south of the enclave, did you ever
2 come across Muslim forces?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you ever encounter Muslim forces that were wearing
5 Ukrainian army uniforms?
6 A. I wouldn't recognise the uniforms as such so I can't tell you
8 Q. Did you ever hear of Muslim forces who were equipped with
9 Ukrainian army uniforms?
10 A. I don't remember that.
11 Q. Then I shall ask you no further questions. Thank you very much,
12 Mr. Koster.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes. Is there re-examination,
14 Mr. Thayer?
15 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So before you start with your
17 cross-examination - your re-examination, sorry - can I just draw your
18 attention that you need to put -- since one of his statements was admitted
19 or has been admitted recently, after the amendments under the Rule 92 ter,
20 then one of the requirements so that that admittance becomes final is that
21 the witness attests that the written statement or transcript accurately
22 reflects the witness's declaration and what he would say if examined.
23 When you started with the witness, not yesterday, the previous day, you
24 did refer him to your -- to the correctness of your summary but not
25 exactly to the correctness of his previous Rule 61 proceedings statement.
1 So you need to do that, please. You don't need to do it in relation to
2 what had already previously been admitted under Rule 92 bis before the
3 amendments, the paragraph (C), Rule 92 bis(C) came into existence.
4 MR. THAYER: I'll start there, Your Honour. I can take care of
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would suggest in future whenever you -- we are
7 dealing with Rule 92 ter evidence, after reading the summary, you don't
8 only ask the witness in relation -- questions in relation to the summary
9 but also in relation to the testimony so that we stick to the letter of
10 the law and not only to the spirit of it.
11 MR. THAYER: We will make that our practice, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Koster. When we met in preparation of
15 your testimony, were you given an opportunity to review the written
16 transcript of the testimony that you gave in the Mladic and Karadzic
17 preliminary proceedings?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you in fact review each and every page of the transcript,
20 that written transcript, of those proceedings, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you attest to the accuracy of the contents of that
23 transcript as being faithful to the testimony that you gave at that time,
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. THAYER: Will that suffice, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
3 MR. THAYER:
4 Q. I'd just like to take up a couple quick questions with you,
5 Colonel Koster. You testified that there were no fuel deliveries between
6 mid-February and June.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Did you make any requests for fuel through your chain of command
9 and then ultimately the VRS during that period of time?
10 A. Absolutely. On every logistics convoy that was requested, the
11 quantity of fuel that we desired to receive was always indicated, and it
12 was also always refused.
13 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to a question that my learned
14 colleague, Mr. Lazarevic, asked you yesterday at page 50, beginning at
15 line 22, and I just want to clarify something for the record because he
16 asked you a question and I don't think you answered the second part of it
17 and I just want to ask you that directly again. He asked you, "Besides
18 the fact that warrant officer van Schaik did not compare the ID documents
19 with the persons whom you found there, and this wasn't done by yourself or
20 by your colleague Rutten either; is that correct?" Can you tell the Trial
21 Chamber whether to your knowledge Lieutenant Rutten ever tried to compare
22 whatever documents were there with the bodies?
23 A. No. I apologise, I don't remember.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, I think I put a question to the witness
25 myself yesterday, asking whether any of those witnesses contained any
1 photos. And he said that no, they contained text, and text in a language
2 that he could not read or understand. How can you compare a document
3 containing text only with a dead body or -- I don't know. I mean, what's
4 the purpose of your --
5 MR. THAYER: Just to clarify, Your Honour. He answered the
6 question as to himself. The question was put to him. I just didn't want
7 to leave an unanswered question out there. That's all.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Now, Colonel, you were asked yesterday, at page 67 of the trial
11 transcript, regarding the leave that you took in April of 1995. Do you
12 recall what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in September of 1995
13 with respect to the date of the last convoy of DutchBat soldiers which was
14 permitted to return to the enclave after taking leave?
15 A. As best I can remember, I indicated that the convoy was indeed the
16 last convoy of people on leave that returned, and I was on that convoy.
17 Q. And, Colonel, turning your attention to page 70 of yesterday's
18 testimony, you were also asked by my learned colleague, Madam Fauveau,
19 whether you were not supposed to let the refugees into the compound when
20 they first began arriving on 11 July. And you answered that that is
21 correct. Do you recall that, sir?
22 A. That's correct. I did not receive authorisation from the
23 battalion commander.
24 Q. Do you know why that authorisation was not given to you at that
25 time, sir?
1 A. I was told that the authorisation was not yet being given because
2 Bosnian Serb forces had threatened to shell the compound, and that's why
3 it was unwise to admit the refugees to the compound, to avoid the risk.
4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.
6 Colonel, we've finished with your testimony now. I wish to thank
7 you on behalf of the Trial Chamber, on behalf of Judge Kwon, Judge Prost,
8 and Judge Stole for having come over to give testimony, to give evidence
9 in this case. You will be assisted by our staff to organise your return.
10 I suppose you're not going too far but in any case we wish you a safe
11 journey to wherever you're going. Thank you for coming over.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, shall we dispose of the issue that was raised
15 yesterday by Madam Fauveau and then have the break immediately after?
16 Yes. But before, we need to finalise the exhibit issue.
17 Yesterday, you tendered -- I don't have the list here now -- are
18 there any further -- Madam Fauveau, none? No more. Mr. Haynes?
19 MR. HAYNES: It's always that difficult question as to whether you
20 admit as a separate exhibit a small piece of film that's already gone in,
21 in its entirety. I take the view that it's unnecessary. I was explicit
22 in the question that it was Exhibit P01514 and southbound to Srebrenica.
23 So I don't --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree entirely with you and the rest of the Bench
1 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Mr. Haynes.
3 Mr. Thayer?
4 MR. THAYER: I was just standing up to move, Your Honour. I can
5 respond to any other exhibits.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. We'll soon have a new witness come into this
7 courtroom who enjoys some protective measures. We are not going to deal
8 with those. We are handing down a -- our oral decision on an oral motion
9 tabled yesterday during yesterday's sitting, towards the end, by Madam
10 Fauveau appearing for General Miletic. Madam Fauveau requested that the
11 cross-examination of the next witness, namely Witness Number 25, who, as I
12 said, is due to start giving testimony within minutes, should be
13 unrestricted and not limited to the issue of nine bodies found in
14 Potocari, as decided by us in paragraph 67 of our 12th September decision.
15 We have received submissions, oral submissions, from
16 Madam Fauveau, from Mr. Josse, orally from Mr. Nicholls yesterday, but the
17 Prosecution followed with a formal response filed today, and I must point
18 out to you, Mr. Nicholls, that you failed to indicate on the front page
19 the name of Mr. David Josse, who was appearing together with Mr. Krgovic
20 for General Gvero. Try to avoid that in the future.
21 We start by making it clear that the restriction of the
22 cross-examination of Witness 25 that I referred to earlier on was not
23 removed by our decision of the -- by our decision on the Defence motion
24 for certification, which we handed down on the 19th of October. In the
25 Prosecution's submission, later on, they sought to admit the transcript of
1 Witness 25 pursuant also to Rule 92 ter and in the alternative pursuant to
2 Rule 89(F). You will recall that following our decision in relation to
3 the previous ordered redaction, in the statement of this witness, we had
4 pointed out that basically the Prosecution's request to tender again the
5 document under Rule 92 ter was basically superseded, unnecessary,
6 redundant, and to our recollection, this was acknowledged as being so by
7 Mr. McCloskey here in the courtroom.
8 I don't need to recall verbatim or read out the various amendments
9 that were introduced recently to the rules, and pursuant to which we have
10 not only paragraph 92 bis(C) but also 92 ter. I will just point out on
11 behalf of the Trial Chamber that the main change introduced by these
12 amendments to the procedure, when a 92 bis witness is required to appear
13 for cross-examination, is, provided that that decision is taken after the
14 amendments came into force, is that that witness would be required to
15 attest that his or her written statement or transcript accurately reflects
16 his or her declaration or what he or she would say if examined again.
17 Basically, the Rules, both before and after the amendments of the
18 13th September 2006, do not address the position where the Trial Chamber
19 decides to require the witness to appear for cross-examination in respect
20 of part of his or her transcript which would be admitted under Rule 92
21 bis. However, the practice existed and it was acknowledged also
22 jurisprudentially here, that the correct interpretation of former Rule 92
23 bis(E) permitted, allowed, the Trial Chamber to restrict cross-examination
24 to only a part of the previous transcript or statement when this was
25 deemed appropriate. It is our firm belief that this has not changed now
1 by the introduction of either 92 bis(C) or 92 ter. The power that existed
2 with the Trial Chamber, with any Trial Chamber to restrict
3 cross-examination existed before and continues to exist.
4 In other words, we read current Rule 92 bis(C) as meaning that
5 Trial Chambers are still permitted the same -- to limit cross-examination.
6 If this is so, we believe it cannot be otherwise, then the reference to
7 the applicability of Rule 92 ter can only apply to that part of the
8 written statement or transcript in respect of which the witness is to be
9 cross-examined, and would not extend to the rest of the testimony,
10 transcript or statement on which there would be no cross-examination.
11 Our conclusion, therefore, is that Rule 92 ter plainly does not
12 apply to a written statement or transcript admitted under Rule 92 bis if
13 the witness is not required to appear for cross-examination. Therefore,
14 the provisions of Rule 92 ter ought not to apply to that part of the
15 written statement or transcript admitted under Rule 92 bis in respect of
16 which the witness is not to be cross-examined.
17 Basically, the conclusion is, our decision is, therefore, that
18 your contention, your request, Madam Fauveau, that the introduction of
19 Rule 92 ter requires or calls for the full cross-examination of Rule 92
20 bis witnesses can only be rejected.
21 In addition to this, we also wish to state that, although there
22 still is on record, in one of the submissions of the Prosecution, the
23 request to tender this statement under Rule 92 ter, the position is that
24 that has not been decided and we see absolutely no need for it to be
25 decided, especially after having heard what Mr. McCloskey stated in one of
1 the previous sittings.
2 Therefore, the decision is as follows: The witness will -- the
3 cross-examination that we ordered previously, and which we specifically
4 limited, as I stated earlier on, stands, and your request to have it -- to
5 have cross-examination extended to other issues is hereby rejected.
6 Yes. I noticed you wished to state something.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
8 specify that my request did not relate to 92 bis witnesses. I fully agree
9 that the Trial Chamber still has the power to limit and restrict the
10 cross-examination of 92 bis witnesses. My request only related to the
11 admission of 92 ter witnesses. Of course, if the witness is not admitted
12 pursuant to 92 ter, then my request is dropped. But I never said that you
13 had no power to restrict the cross-examination pursuant to 92 bis.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I understood your motion yesterday to
15 specifically mean Prosecution has asked -- was not satisfied with having
16 had this statement [French interpretation coming over English channel].
17 Okay. We don't need translation into French.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. [French interpretation coming over
19 English channel.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I take that as I should probably just sit down but
22 just on a related, and in fact if I could --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You can stay where you are. We can see you, at
24 least if not completely, I mean we ...
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just on a related topic that might be helpful now
1 that -- just for some food for thought, is that you may know we are now --
2 we are coming up next week to some 89(F) witnesses or now 92 ter
3 witnesses. I've realised that we have not asked leave for court to go
4 into that. I'm not sure you would require us to or not. And with all the
5 filings that we have to do and that we are reading, I would propose that
6 we can perhaps deal with these subjects orally because, unlike 92 bis,
7 these 89(F)/92 ter requests are -- basically we have one reason that we
8 are offering them and that is just to help save time, and I've asked
9 Defence counsel to consider these witnesses, that they have been on notice
10 for, you know, months and months now, because we listed the rule next to
11 their name, whether they had any objections or they are thinking about
12 that. It's the next -- well, the -- the next -- next week are the first
13 three witnesses. So I would just offer that to you for thought, and we
14 are, of course, ready to do whatever you feel is appropriate. But
15 basically our submission is all the same. We would just like to save
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We will come back to you on this soon after the
19 We'll have a 25-minute break.
20 JUDGE KWON: One moment.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One thing, because obviously we don't come out with
24 our decisions without having discussed the merits fully, the understanding
25 also is, pursuant to what we decided a few minutes ago, that if
1 Mr. Nicholls in this case, after reading the summary to the witness, puts
2 questions in chief on other matters, on whatever matter basically, this
3 could entitle you, of course, to cross-examine the witness on that matter.
4 In other words, the restricted cross-examination would immediately extend
5 to these new issues that would be then with the witness. Okay?
6 So, we'll have a 25-minute break. We also need to finish at
7 quarter to 7.00 this evening.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I would just say, sorry, Your Honours, the witness
9 is not available, he's told me, Monday or Tuesday, so I would strongly
10 hope we can finish him today.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Very soon you're going to start giving evidence here
20 which will be almost entirely cross-examination and limited also to one
21 particular area which will soon be mentioned to you. Our rules require
22 that before you start your testimony, you enter a solemn declaration to
23 the effect that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the
24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Madam Usher is going
25 to hand to you the text of this solemn declaration. Please read it out
1 loud and that will be your undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-114
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me explain a few things briefly before you start
6 giving evidence. The Prosecution requested on your behalf and we granted
7 the Prosecution's request that you will enjoy some protective measures in
8 this trial, while you give evidence. One protective measure that we have
9 granted is to hide your identity. You will not be referred to by your
10 first name or by your family name, but you will be referred to by a
11 pseudonym, which in your case is PW -- that's Prosecution Witness -- 114.
12 Of course, lawyers can address you sir or witness, et cetera, but please
13 refrain from ever making reference to the witness's name and surname.
14 The other thing, again in our effort to hide your identity, is
15 that we have granted facial distortion. Basically that means that outside
16 this room where you are testifying, and of course behind these glasses
17 where we have some staff translating and assisting the Trial Chamber, no
18 one will be able to see your face. That is the second protective measure
19 that we have granted. Very soon, if you will have your -- if you look at
20 your screen on your monitor, very soon you will see how you will appear to
21 others. In other words, in squares like you're seeing now. Is that to
22 your satisfaction?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you very much.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Mr. Nicholls will now read you out a brief
25 summary, maybe ask you some questions, I don't know, and then he would be
1 immediately followed by the Defence teams on cross-examination. I'll tell
2 you when we come to the cross-examination what the restriction imposed by
3 this Trial Chamber is, namely they can't cross-examine you on everything
4 unless we change our decision but only on some things that you allegedly
5 saw only with reference to some dead bodies that you saw in Potocari,
7 Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. First in e-court could we
9 have P02270 which is the pseudonym sheet? And that should not be
10 broadcast, I don't know.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I think it would be simpler in this
12 case if we use the usual system, you show the witness a sheet of paper
13 with his name and surname and then it will be saved under seal.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
16 Q. Sir, could you please look at that sheet of paper, do not read it
17 out loud, but can you confirm that your name is printed on the piece of
18 paper under PW 114?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam could you kindly show it to the Defence teams?
22 Do you want to see it all or is it enough if, say, Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Meek
23 sees it?
24 MR. JOSSE: I'm sure it's enough for my learned friends to see it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's enough. Could we see it, please?
1 Okay. That's yours. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise to the witness. I have two small
3 housekeeping matters before I ask the witness questions. The first, and
4 I've talked about this with counsel on the other side, I noticed that in
5 the prior testimony, in the Krstic transcript, there was another reference
6 to a commander Nikolic which was not part of the Court's decision and had
7 not been listed. That is at page 1569, line 25. I will affirm that as
8 with all other references to the transcript, that is to Momir Nikolic. It
9 was in a question from the Bench that the name appears.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Madam Nikolic?
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We don't need to take any provisions on
13 that. Thank you.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I just wanted to raise it because I
15 noticed it when I read it.
16 The second issue is that P02189 in e-court, that is Exhibit P52A
17 from this witness's prior testimony, the wrong image is stored. And we
18 are correcting that. It's a technical problem. It has been corrected.
19 I'm sorry, I didn't realise that it had been corrected while we are
20 waiting today.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you all made aware of this, Defence teams?
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I had not told my colleagues that. I had hard
23 copies of the exhibit in case any of them wanted to use it.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: When we come to that if there are problems please
25 let us know.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session for one moment.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Let's go into private session for a
4 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session. Thank you.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. Sir, I'm now going to read a brief summary of your prior testimony
25 and if I make any mistakes, please correct me at the end.
1 On 12 July, Witness 114 and another DutchBat soldier went to
2 investigate rumours of corpses in the vicinity of the DutchBat base in
3 Potocari. In an area behind the "White House," some 700 metres from the
4 UN compound, the witness saw nine or ten corpses. The witness marked the
5 location of the bodies, a stream, and the "White House" on Krstic Exhibit
6 5/3 A.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, that is P02190 in this case.
8 The bodies lay approximately 20 metres from the witness down a
9 hill and near a stream. The bodies lay in a line on the edge of a forest.
10 Using his colleague's camera, witness 114 took three photos of the bodies.
11 And those are Exhibits P02191, P02192 and P02193. The witness's colleague
12 stood on guard while the witness took these photos because there were many
13 Serb soldiers, Rambo-types, in the vicinity at the time.
14 The bodies were dressed in civilian clothes, blue jeans,
15 pullovers, coats. None of the victims wore military clothing. All of the
16 victims were men, the age group was 15 to 45. The witness could see that
17 some of the victims had blood stains on their backs and on the backs of
18 their heads.
19 After seeing these victims, and taking the three photographs of
20 the nine to ten bodies, the witness and the other DutchBat soldier
21 immediately returned to the UN compound. This was around noon on 12
23 Q. Sir, when we met earlier, you reviewed your transcript from the
24 Krstic trial; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Is what I've just read an accurate summary of your testimony in
2 that trial?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. I now have a question for you. You testified as I stated in the
5 summary that the bodies were lying in a line. Can you tell the Trial
6 Chamber, please, the position of the bodies, how they were lying as they
7 lay in that line?
8 A. The bodies why lying in a line with the head down in the stream on
9 the stomach so they were shot from the back.
10 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions at this time.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you Mr. Nicholls. Who is going first?
12 Ms. Condon? Let's make an effort to finish with this witness today.
13 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Condon:
15 Q. Witness, I want to ask you about the date that you say that you
16 found the bodies. Your evidence to this Trial Chamber is that it's the
17 12th of July; is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And you're sure about that date?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can I ask you what time of the day it was?
22 A. Approximately noon.
23 Q. About noon?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And you took some photos of what you say you saw?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yeah. It stands to reason, doesn't it, that the photos were taken
3 on the same day as you made the discovery?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Okay.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question
7 and answer? Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. You're both speaking the same
9 language so try to pause between question and answer, both of you.
10 MS. CONDON: I will, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 MS. CONDON:
13 Q. Now, witness, you recall being interviewed by the Royal Dutch
15 A. In the beginning, yes.
16 Q. Perhaps, Your Honour, if the witness could be shown 1D48, at page
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that may be something that needs to be
21 under seal or not broadcast to the gallery because the witness is
23 MS. CONDON: I apologise, Your Honour. Perhaps if we go into
24 private session.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You're 100 per cent right, Mr. Nicholls.
1 Has it been broadcast? No? All right. Okay. Shall we go
2 straight into private session? I think it's easier if we go into private
3 session and deal with it like that. I think the safest way is to deal
4 with it in private session because then there will definitely be no
5 broadcast. I can't guarantee if we are not in private session. So let's
6 go into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 3150-3151 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ostojic is representing Colonel Beara in
16 this case and will be asking you some questions.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir, how are you?
19 A. I'm fine, thank you very much.
20 Q. I just have a couple of questions for you. You mention on page
21 35, line 20, I believe, or during the statement "Rambo-type." Can you
22 describe for me in greater detail what you mean whether you say Rambo-type
24 A. I think it were like some soldier reserves, reserves units, and
25 soldiers who are not on active duty at that time, just some of them on
1 stand-by or call. They were wearing normal civilian clothes and half
2 military clothes.
3 Q. Soldiers that were perhaps not within the regular army or the
4 Drina Corps as you've identified them previously in your testimony,
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And in fact, sir, am I correct that you've called these
8 Rambo-type soldiers temps or temporary soldier?
9 A. Yes, temporary soldiers who are on call, like a reserve units.
10 Q. And you distinguish between the temporary or Rambo-type soldiers
11 from the others soldiers because of what factors?
12 A. The -- it was a free-phase. The first phase was in a very
13 organised unit, an infantry unit, was on strict control of a commander.
14 The second way was the Rambo types, they were on -- they were on an -- a
15 command, they had a commander but not a strict command. So they were
16 doing their own thing, entering houses, taking stuff, and walking around
17 without, you know, so there was the second way.
18 Q. And is it true sir that these Rambo-type soldiers are the soldiers
19 that you believe committed violation of human rights?
20 A. I think that's possible, yes.
21 Q. Okay. Well, isn't that something that you testified to in the
22 Krstic case, under oath, and you didn't state there that it was possible.
23 You, in fact, sir, made it an affirmative fact that it was your opinion
24 that the it was the Rambo-type soldiers not the regular soldiers who
25 committed those war crimes?
1 A. That's correct.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have a transcript reference, please, since
4 it's -- specific wording is being put to the witness.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the Trial Chamber would need to see that
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll give it to you but I think the witness answered
8 the question. Specifically the 29th of March 2000, page 1562, lines 1
9 through 13 in complete context.
10 Q. And in fact sir these regular Serb soldiers, the disciplined ones,
11 it was your opinion at that time, and perhaps today, that they didn't have
12 time for that because they had other duties, correct?
13 A. Yeah, that's correct.
14 Q. I have to ask you this question and I just want to make sure the
15 Court is aware because of the Court's ruling I'm not sure if I can ask you
16 this: Can you tell me the date that you saw Mr. Momir Nikolic?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: First of all, the question put about the Rambo-type
19 soldiers is -- does not accurately reflect what's in the transcript. The
20 witness never said it was a Rambo-type soldiers not other soldiers who
21 committed violations of human rights. Second, I've been pretty patient
22 but I'm waiting for him to tie this into the area of cross.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Cross-examination, yeah.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: But just for the record, the basis put is not
25 reflected in the transcript and my friend's question.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you wish to argue this, Mr. Ostojic?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Wholeheartedly I could argue it, Your Honour. If
3 you look on page 35, line 20 of Mr. Nicholls' summary, he mentions the
4 word Rambo-type and I'm flushing that out and I think in the statement
5 that is given I could read it to the witness but I think this witness gave
6 us his honest opinion and answered my question having his recollection and
7 he answered it the way he felt and I think he answered it honestly. If
8 the Court wants, I could read either that portion of the transcript.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But what the Court wants is that you go straight to
10 the questions that pertain to the limited or restricted cross-examination
12 MR. OSTOJIC: And I appreciate that, Your Honour, but we could
13 discuss it perhaps outside the witness's -- the Court said if they go
14 beyond that and mention things like Rambo-type which they mentioned the
15 door should be opened, so I asked him that question given the Court's
16 ruling. Fair enough?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What I said Mr. Ostojic is if questions are put to
18 the witness on other issues on other matters, beyond or apart from the
19 restricted issues reserved for cross-examinations then you will be allowed
20 to but the witness was not asked questions about these Rambo-types. I
21 allow -- we allowed you to put one or two questions on these Rambo, at
22 least to clear but now go straight to the issue that the cross-examination
23 has been restricted to.
24 MR. OSTOJIC:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, thank you for your patience, given your testimony
1 here today and given your testimony in Krstic approximately six and a half
2 years ago, would I be fair to suggest to you that in fact the murders that
3 were committed of those nine individuals, that you found on the 12th of
4 July, were committed indeed by these Rambo, rogue type soldiers or people?
5 Isn't that accurate?
6 A. It's true, yeah, I think it's possible, yeah.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. Madam Nikolic, are you
9 going to cross examine the witness?
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any
11 questions for this witness, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. With your permission, I would have a
16 couple of questions about --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Stojanovic is appearing for
18 Borovcanin, for Accused Borovcanin in this case. Go ahead.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you a video clip of the area that we
21 will be using and I will kindly ask you to assist me with it and I would
22 like to use 01516. This is the aerial clip that I'm showing. Could we
23 please bring that up on e-court? While this is happening, I would kindly
24 ask you to answer a few questions.
25 The road that you took to the place where you found the bodies,
1 was that an asphalt road, sir?
2 A. No that was not an asphalt road. This was a gravel road.
3 Q. Would you say that part of the road was asphalt and the other part
4 was gravel or was it all gravel? What would you say?
5 A. Maybe the -- maybe the first 25 metres was a bit of asphalt and
6 then the half, the next was up in the mountains was a normal gravel, mud,
7 muddy road, normally in the winter.
8 Q. Had you ever used that road before?
9 A. Yes. Many times we did a patrol, yes.
10 Q. Does this mean that it was a customary route when you went on
12 A. Yes. It was.
13 Q. Did the road go by the houses or did it lead through a
14 non-inhabited area?
15 A. There were a couple of houses and then it was in the middle of no
16 where, in the forest mostly, and then up to the hills were green grass
17 fields, that's all, and some bunkers, Muslim bunkers. That's all.
18 Q. How did you learn about a certain number of bodies there?
19 A. The day on the 12th it was a rumour going around on -- it was
20 already on the 11th there was a rumour around on the compound about bodies
21 and on the 12th I went walking around and I found the bodies. So it was a
23 Q. Was that on the second day of the evacuation of the population
24 that you set off in your mission to find the bodies?
25 A. Yes, on the second day, yes.
1 Q. On the second day of the evacuation you went to see where those
2 bodies were, would that be the precise answer?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I think this has been covered.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will continue, Your Honour. I
8 believe that we have to clarify some things.
9 Q. Did somebody tell you directly to go and see those bodies?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Clarifying is one thing and repeating is another.
11 Please try not to repeat the same questions that others or which are not
12 in doubt in any case. Yes. Go ahead with your question.
13 The question to you is, sir, whether anyone gave you instructions
14 to go where the bodies were.
15 THE WITNESS: No. It was in my own will. Yeah.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. How long did it take you to get to those bodies when you were
18 walking on that macadam road?
19 A. A couple of minutes. It's not far from the compound. I was
20 working around the compound the main entrance where they -- transport of
21 the Muslim people were heading to the buses. I was working there so maybe
22 five, six minutes. It's not far, 700 metres, approx.
23 Q. And now I would kindly ask the usher to assist us and I would like
24 to ask the witness to look at the aerial image in front of him. Could you
25 try and mark the route that you took to the bodies? If you need time to
1 get your bearings and see where certain facilities are on this image that
2 shouldn't be a problem. We have time?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
4 MR. NICHOLLS: If the witness wishes, it can be blown up. I don't
5 know if he knows that can be done.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: First I would zoom out so that he gets a complete
7 picture of the aerial image that we have at our disposal and then he can
8 indicate where he would like the technicians to zoom in and we can proceed
9 from there. Let's zoom out first, please. And get the complete picture
10 on the screen, complete image. Yes. Witness, we are giving you the
11 opportunity to look at this image and then in relation to any question
12 that may be put to you, to ask or indicate to us where you would like the
13 technicians to zoom in and then you can mark whatever has been asked from
14 you, mainly the route you took.
15 THE WITNESS: I was standing here on this point.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
17 THE WITNESS: I went up here and then through this tree line here,
18 this is a muddy way, and up here, this area.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you finish it with an X, please,
20 with the letter X?
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And to the right of it, could you kindly put
23 your signature and date?
24 Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Or perhaps 114 as his pseudonym or we keep it under
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You could cancel that and put 114.
6 That's what we require. PW -- PW-114. I thank you.
7 Yes Mr. Stojanovic?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, on your way, did you pass through the convoy or through the
10 crowd of refugees as you were walking to that place?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Kindly assist us and mark the place where that group or that crowd
13 of refugees were, the one that you had to go through in order to get
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I have to say I think that's outside the court's
17 order and it's sort of an effort to open the door itself.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of this question to the nine
19 bodies or ten bodies?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I
21 could answer by displaying the next clip, which was taken on the 12th of
22 July at 1400 hours, that we have prepared for this purpose.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then proceed and we'll see.
24 So the question to you is whether you passed through the convoy or
25 through a crowd of refugees as were you walking to that place. And you
1 said you did, and then you were asked to mark the place where that group
2 or that crowd of refugees were, in other words the group you had to go
3 through in order to get there.
4 THE WITNESS: This box here, this area, then up to Srebrenica,
5 there were crowded people here, this area.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you put a Y next to that mark, please?
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that there is relevance but I asked to you
11 state the relevance. Let's move to the next question or to the next
12 document that you wish to show the witness.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
14 assistance. And now can we bring up on e-court P01549, P01549. The photo
15 is from the same collection. It is an aerial image that was taken on the
16 12th of July 1995 at 1400 hours, in other words in the afternoon, and this
17 is relevant to the time that the witness is testifying about.
18 Q. Sir, while the photo is being brought up, I would like to ask you
19 something else. On the way to the place where the bodies were, did you
20 see the transformation station? Do you remember that?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Transformer station, power station.
23 THE WITNESS: You mean the power plant?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.
25 THE WITNESS: I know what it is. It's on the back of the "White
1 House," we call it the "White House" it's on the back side of it, on the
2 grass field or something, yeah.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You're looking at an image, an aerial image.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. And now I would kindly ask if this can be rotated clockwise so as
6 to provide the witness with a better representation of the event, and can
7 this also be lowered a little, please? Thank you. This will do.
8 Sir, can you find your bearings on this photo and can you see
9 across the road a black dot and the marking, "people"? Will you agree
10 with me that this is the group of refugees that could be seen in this area
11 at the time?
12 A. Yeah. It is possible, yes.
13 Q. Could you show us on this photo where it was that you turned
14 westwards or where you turned right?
15 A. I think it was around here, this area, this area. You can see the
16 path here also. It's a muddy path. It's up here, so up there.
17 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you passed before the group of
18 refugees that is here, seen in this image?
19 A. Yes. But in that area, there were lots of refugees also so there
20 were loads and loads of people, so I think this was a holdup for people
21 but the buses were down there, more to the compound, so everywhere were
23 Q. And going on the route that you just marked, did you pass close to
24 the transformer station or the power station that we just discussed a
25 little while ago?
1 A. Yes. If I take this route, it's on the right side.
2 Q. Thank you. And I'm going to finish up with a couple more
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you finished with this document?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If you agree I
6 would like to have the document marked now, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you kindly, again, put PW-114 next to the mark
8 that you see in red already, please?
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Sir, when you came to the place where you saw the bodies, were you
14 able to identify any of those persons?
15 A. No. I didn't see them before.
16 Q. Did you notice any identification documents next to the bodies?
17 A. No. That's too far away and I was on the -- in an area with lots
18 of trees so it was not possible.
19 Q. You don't know who these people were that were killed?
20 A. No, but I guess it were Muslims from Srebrenica.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't want any guessing. Basically you either
22 know or you don't know.
23 THE WITNESS: I know it were people from Srebrenica.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. And the next question follows logically: Why do you know this and
1 you are not assuming that?
2 A. I never saw a civilian -- military in civilian clothes being
3 killed before, and I assume that it's -- if you're making an attack like
4 this you come in military units and not in civilian clothes so I know, and
5 it were all civilians in civilian clothes so -- I'm a hundred per cent
6 sure it were civilians from Srebrenica.
7 Q. Could these have been civilians from Bratunac, Zelani Jadar,
8 Potocari, or you are 100 per cent sure that they were from Srebrenica?
9 A. Yeah, from Srebrenica, yeah.
10 Q. You don't know who killed these people, if they were killed at
12 A. I don't know who the people were but there were dead so they were
13 not moving so I think they were dead, yeah. No, I don't think. I'm sure.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was whether you know who killed them.
15 You don't. All right. So for the record, the witness made a movement
16 with his head indicating that he didn't -- he doesn't know.
17 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Can you tell us if you know when these people were killed?
20 A. No, I don't know the time. I was there at noon so it must be
21 maybe on the 11th or on the 12th in the morning.
22 Q. And to finish, is it possible that this incident took place on the
23 13th, the one that you're talking about today?
24 A. No, because I saw them on the 12th. So ...
25 Q. If I were to tell you that the first day of the evacuation was the
1 12th of July and that the second day of the evacuation was the 13th of
2 July, would that change anything of your conclusion about the date when
3 you were there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I'm going to finish with the question: Do you abide by this still
6 today, that this was on the second day of the evacuation?
7 A. Yes, on the second day of the evacuation, yeah.
8 Q. Thank you. If you allow me to ask you just about the photographs
9 that you mentioned today, can you please tell us how many bodies you
11 A. Nine till ten and there were three pictures.
12 Q. Were you able to count in the photographs how many bodies there
13 were, nine or ten?
14 A. Not on the photos because the photos are from a bad quality, as
15 you know. I saw them by myself and I counted them.
16 Q. Thus your answer today about the number of the bodies is based on
17 what you counted and not what you established later, on the photographs,
18 because you have them?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have
22 no further questions for this witness. Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Madam Fauveau is
24 representing General Miletic will now put some questions to you.
25 Madam Fauveau.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because we are not receiving
3 interpretation in English.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
5 Q. A while ago my colleague read out to you a summary of what you
6 said in the Krstic trial?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 Go ahead. Madam Fauveau?
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
10 Q. When you heard this summary, you said that the summary tallied
11 with what you had said in Krstic trial; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. In the summary, my colleague read out as follows: "[In English]
14 In an area behind the 'White House' some 700 metres from the compound, the
15 witness saw nine or ten corpses."
16 [Interpretation] Is it fair to say that you did not mention this
17 during the Krstic trial? Do you remember exactly what you said?
18 A. I don't understand the question.
19 Q. To assist you, I shall read back to you what you said during the
20 Krstic trial. On page 1564. "[In English] Nine to ten corpses which I
21 found were diagonally in an open field at the edge of a forest near a
22 creek behind the interrogation house about 700 metres from the compound."
23 [Interpretation] When you mentioned these corpses who you said you found
24 them behind the interrogation house, you did not then mention the "White
25 House," is that right?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Were there other things which were quite accurate in the summary
3 which my colleague read out to you today?
4 A. It's all okay. It's same.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Which weren't quite
7 Q. When you gave your first statement to the Office of the Prosecutor
8 in September 1995, on 26 of September 1995, when you mentioned this
9 interrogation house, you did say that this house was blue. Do you
10 remember this?
11 A. No, I don't remember. No.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, we are going off the topic and in fairness,
13 if the reason for that is about the summary I read, the counsel did not
14 read an earlier part of his testimony where he talks about exactly what I
15 said in the summary, calls it interrogation house, in a different part
16 than the part she read there is a part, I can read it, I can read it in
17 re-direct, which matches --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: These are two issues in one brought together. Do
19 proceed because it can be relevant or it might end up not being relevant
20 at all, in which case we will stop you, Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we show
22 the witness Exhibit number 3D18, please?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: That may need to be in private as well. It's his
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I tried to download it myself to anticipate that. I
1 anticipate that but it didn't work. So, yes, has this been broadcast or
2 not yet? All right. So let's go into private session, please.
3 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We are in open session, Madam.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
25 Q. Is it fair to say that those bodies that you saw had clothes on
2 A. Yes, all of them.
3 Q. Did you remove these clothes in order to see the injuries?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. In that case, how were you able to see the wounds?
6 A. They were covered with blood on the clothes.
7 Q. Is it fair to say that you saw the blood stains and not the wounds
9 A. A wound of a shot is very small but the blood is mainly very big,
10 so I don't see the wounds but the blood spots, yes.
11 Q. And was there a lot of blood on these clothes?
12 A. Yes, mostly on the back and in the main in the area of the head.
13 Q. Do you know the difference between an injury sustained by -- do
14 you know the difference between an exit wound and an entry wound?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already told you that he did not see the
16 wounds themselves. What he the relevance of the question, Madam Fauveau?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour.
18 Q. Were you able to determine whether these bodies had been moved
19 after their deaths?
20 A. No, they never been moved. Afterwards, yeah, maybe, but when they
21 have been shot, not, no.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What makes you come to that conclusion? How do you
23 come to that conclusion?
24 THE WITNESS: They have been shot in the back and they just kept
25 them there for a while and after I think when the -- all things were over
1 they have been removed by a unit or something. I never been back there.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].
4 Q. As you did not see the wounds, how do you know that these people
5 were shot? How can you tell that these people were shot?
6 A. I think this is the most easiest way, and they were shooting all
7 over the place, so this is most easy way and the fastest way.
8 Q. Is it fair to say that this is an assumption on your part rather
9 than knowledge of the fact?
10 A. I think it's a fact that it's the easy way to solve an issue very
11 fast and quietly? Why to make lots of bombs and then to kill someone?
12 It's easier and faster.
13 Q. I'm not asking you what's faster and what's easier. I'm just
14 asking you how you can be so sure that these people were shot by a bullet,
15 as you did not see the wounds.
16 A. I think with a knife it's different. I think that -- that's my
17 opinion but that's my private opinion. A bullet shot in the back it's
18 easier from the distance and they cleared it off with a head shot to be
19 sure that they were dead.
20 Q. How do you know that they had been shot in the back?
21 A. Because I saw the blood spots from the back and they were lying
22 with their head down, down in the stream.
23 Q. And when a bullet leaves a body, there is also blood, isn't
25 A. Yes. There is. If you shoot a bullet inside a body, even shot,
1 the first shot is going in the body, the hole is smaller than the out
2 shot. The other side is bigger. So if you turn the body over, it's a
3 big, mega hole. You don't want to see this.
4 Q. But you did not see the other side. You only saw one side and you
5 saw a lot of blood; is that right?
6 A. Yes. I saw enough, yes.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
8 further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam Fauveau.
10 Mr. Josse?
11 Mr. Josse is representing General Gvero here and he will be
12 cross-examining you.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness be given a clean copy, so to speak,
15 of P01516?
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
17 Q. Now, witness, at page 1494 of your testimony in the Krstic case,
18 you were asked various questions about where you saw Muslim fighters with
19 mortars on the 11th of July in Potocari.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of this to the nine bodies?
21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we are -- without giving away my line of
22 cross-examination, it goes to whether these killings were in fact
23 opportunistic, as the Prosecution allege, or whether they could be
24 described in some other manner.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's hear the rest of the questions,
1 then, go ahead.
2 MR. JOSSE:
3 Q. And I want to be fair, I hope, because Mr. McCloskey, who was
4 examining you at the time, showed you a diagram or photograph and asked
5 you where you saw these fighters with the Muslims -- I beg your pardon,
6 with the mortars, and you said, "Here, here, and here." And Mr. McCloskey
7 said that "the record should indicate that he indicated he saw Muslim
8 fighters on both sides of the UN base up in the hill area as well as the
9 northern side of the UN base."
10 I would like you to mark those areas on this plan, please.
11 A. About here, here, here, I think here somewhere. Of course, they
12 were running away, coming back, et cetera.
13 Q. You mentioned in the testimony I have just read out, that they
14 were on both sides of the UN base, so were they the other side as well?
15 A. It was possible here in this area but when the Serbs came in they
16 were running away so it was short basis.
17 Q. And let's be clear about this. That was on the 11th of July, from
18 your recollection?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. By the 12th of July, these people had run away into the woods
21 because they were very nervous? I think you said that in fact in the
22 passage I've just quoted?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Could you now mark where you saw the nine or ten bodies, please?
25 A. In this area. Here.
1 Q. So perhaps you would put by there nine bodies, by that line so we
2 are clear.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. And at the bottom of the diagram, perhaps you would put, if this
5 isn't unfair, Muslim fighters?
6 A. Over here?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. [Marks].
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't forget the PW-114. You can put that top-left
10 corner of the picture, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.
13 MR. JOSSE:
14 Q. And on this plan, are you able to indicate from which side the
15 Serb forces came?
16 A. Yes, from this side. And then went to this area, yeah.
17 Q. And finally, I think, in which direction did the Muslim fighters
19 A. Should I mark it on the picture?
20 Q. Please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you mark that, let's mark these first,
22 because they are too near where you put Muslim fighters before, and I
23 don't want later on in a year or two from now to get confused. Next to
24 the last two markings that you put on the left-hand side, could you put --
25 could you write, "Serb forces" and then draw an arrow straight, pointing
1 to those two markings, please?
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And just put an arrow. Okay. Now Mr. Josse has
4 asked you to indicate on the map which direction the Muslim fighters fled.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record the witness indicates
7 with two arrows, two arrows, on -- each on -- on each -- on either side of
8 the building which appears in the middle of the picture. On top of each
9 of those arrows could you just put "MF," please?
10 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 MR. JOSSE: I'm very grateful to Your Honour and I've got nothing
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Josse. Mr. Haynes is
15 appearing for General Pandurevic and he will be asking you some
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
18 Q. I'm not going to be very long with you. You very fairly described
19 the circumstances in which you saw these bodies and the difficulties you
20 had in seeing them or identifying them. In the summary of your evidence
21 that was read out earlier, there was an approximation of the ages that you
22 thought they were, and do you accept that any evidence that you can give
23 about their ages is precisely that, an approximation?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And that the youngest of these bodies could very well have been
1 18, 19 or 20?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes. Is there re-examination?
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Just one moment, Your Honour, one moment, please,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. NICHOLLS: A couple questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
12 Q. You were cross-examined about what you stated in Krstic about the
13 location of the bodies and the summary. I want to refer you back to
14 another part of your testimony in Krstic. This is on page 1528. Line
15 17. "Question: Where did you find the dead bodies?" "Answer: Behind
16 the 'White House,' the interrogation house." A little further
17 down: "Where is that? Behind the 'White House' about 700 metres from the
18 compound is a kind of electrical house. I was familiar with this route
19 because I had patrolled it many times."
20 Now, when you say, "Behind the 'White House,'" are you referring
21 to the bodies that you pound in the creek or were there other bodies
22 actually right behind the white house, further away behind the "White
24 Does that, thinking back, is that -- are you -- do you stand by
25 that testimony you made in Krstic?
1 A. Yes. It was the bodies that I found in the creek.
2 Q. Okay. You were asked questions about the route you took when you
3 found the bodies on the road. If you recall do you remember the name of
4 that road, or did that road have a name?
5 A. We called it the road, Buda-Pale, or Route 500, it was the name,
6 the top of the hill was 500 metres so that's why.
7 Q. I'm sorry I said the bodies on the road. That's not correct. I
8 mean the bodies you took -- the road you took when you found the bodies.
9 Now I'd like to show you one of the photos you took. That's
10 P02191. Maybe we can blow up a little bit the area between the white tape
11 stripes. Maybe a little bit smaller, sorry. Okay. First of all, do you
12 recognise this photograph?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Did you take this photograph?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Can you describe what is shown in the photograph between the white
18 A. There is a body lying, the man is wearing a blue vest with a white
19 shirt underneath. He has black hair. He's lying down with his head in
20 the stream.
21 Q. And just to be clear, could you take your pen and just draw a
22 little arrow pointing to the head of this victim? Because, as you said,
23 you had some difficulty with the quality of these photos?
24 A. This is his head, this here, this is his neck, this is his arm,
25 shoulder, this is his blue vest, so his legs are here.
1 Q. Okay. For the record, the markings the witness made go from left
2 to right. He made a circle for the head --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: A number 1.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: We could do it this way.
5 Q. Could you please put a number 1 where you indicated the head of
6 the victim is?
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. I think the rest is self explanatory?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need any further explanations. No, thank
10 you very much. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, could you please put PW-114 in the corner of
13 this and then we can save it?
14 A. [Marks].
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Witness, we don't have any further questions for you which
17 basically means that your testimony finishes here. On behalf of the Trial
18 Chamber and also of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come
19 again to this Tribunal to give evidence once more. And we wish you a safe
20 journey back to where you are going.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll be escorted and given the assistance you
24 Do we need to draw the curtains down or not? If we have the break
25 now, let's draw the curtain because there is something I need to discuss
1 with you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Next witness, PW-112, I just want to make sure where
4 we stand. We ordered his protective measures on the 23rd of August 2006;
5 is that correct? All right. Did we assign to him the pseudonym then or
6 not? Because he had testified under protective measures before. So those
7 he carries with him, but I'm not quite sure that we assigned the PW-112 to
9 MR. NICHOLLS: That is correct, Your Honour. We assigned that
10 number to him and that is in the order.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we have no further obstacles. The other
12 thing -- let's go into private session for one moment, please.
13 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's thrash this straight away. Documents to be
1 tendered or that are being tendered by the Prosecution in relation to the
2 previous witness, PW-114?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. P02270 is the --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Pseudonym sheet.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Right, under seal, of course.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it there is no objection. Yes, so that is
7 being admitted and it will be preserved under seal. Next is what?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: PIC 00030, P02191, that was the thing that was
9 marked by the witness. The photo.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I hear no objection. So it is so
11 admitted. And, of course, admitted also would be the documents that were
12 referred to in his testimony as per our previous decision but we don't
13 need to go into detail.
14 Defence for Borovcanin?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We would like
16 the two photos to be admitted, the witness did use them, 4DIC 27 and 4DIC
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. So it's 4DI -- 4DIC 27 and 4DIC 28.
19 Any objection?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour, but I would point out that one of
21 those photos, I don't remember which one, was dated 12 July and the
22 witness clearly said it was day 2 that he went to see the bodies so that
23 12 July photo wasn't so relevant but he said 12 July so we didn't object
24 but if everyone understands that, we -- we'll allow it in.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that but I don't think we need an
1 explanation from Mr. Stojanovic because it's clear enough. So there is no
2 objection as such so both documents are tendered, are being admitted and
3 marked accordingly, as I stated.
4 The -- Mr. Josse, you wish to tender, I suppose, IC29?
5 MR. JOSSE: We do, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it's 6DIC29. No objection?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. There are no further
9 documents that you wish to tender, Mr. Ostojic or Ms. Fauveau? None.
10 Okay. Thank you.
11 So we can proceed now with the next witness. In the case of this
12 witness we don't have any Rule 92 bis --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, perhaps while this is going down
14 just one matter to help save some time, in the 13 July 2006, your order,
15 you granted us leave to put in evidence of the Snagovo executions but you
16 said no evidence on those executions for six months until the -- after the
17 trial started. We have two Snagovo -- the two Snagovo witnesses ready for
18 next week. I've asked counsel if they had any problems. They don't. But
19 we did find your order and thought, of course, we best --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is no objection, then we can proceed. I
21 just want a confirmation from the Defence teams that there --
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure that you agree. All right.
24 So then you will -- you can proceed accordingly.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I also have been told that you are in a position to
2 feed the Trial Chamber back on the motion that is I referred to earlier
3 on, just before the break. Yes, Ms. Nikolic?
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We are in a
5 position to respond to the submission that was filed for the witnesses
6 that are supposed to arrive as of Monday after the 30th of October. The
7 Defence has been consulted and we don't have any objections to the witness
8 54 being granted protective measures as opposed to witness 50. We believe
9 the argument is that the Prosecution has provided to the Trial Chamber and
10 we fully agree with the Chamber's decision on granting protective measures
11 for this witness.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We will eventually hand down an oral decision on
13 this. In the meantime, you have the position of the Defence teams very
14 clear, and you know where you stand.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon or good evening to you, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And on behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to welcome you
19 to this trial, where you are going to give evidence.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You have given evidence before, and more or less you
22 are familiar with the procedure.
23 Madam Usher is going to give you the text of a solemn declaration
24 that is required from you before you start your evidence. That is a
25 solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be
1 speaking testifying the truth. So please read it out aloud and that will
2 be your solemn commitment with this Trial Chamber.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
4 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-112
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, sir. Could you kindly take
8 a seat and I'll explain two brief matters.
9 First of all, the Prosecution on your behalf asked that you
10 continue enjoying protective measures in this case. We know that you had
11 protective measures before when you testified in this Tribunal. We have
12 kept them. We have granted the Prosecution's request, so you will be
13 testifying under these conditions: First, your identity will be hidden
14 from the public. You will be referred to as Witness PW-112. Of course,
15 some lawyers may address you as witness or as sir. But for us, you are
16 Witness PW-112. And no one will refer to you by name.
17 Second is that we have agreed to grant you what are referred to as
18 facial distortion here. Facial distortion basically means that anyone
19 outside these four walls will not be able to see your face while you are
20 testifying. Anyone who will be following these proceedings will be able
21 to see a Melange of squares, coloured squares, but not your face. Also,
22 in certain -- at certain moments, there may be the need to go into private
23 session for the same purpose of not revealing your identity. When we go
24 into private session, basically it means that what is being said can only
25 be heard inside these -- this courtroom, not outside. So no one would be
1 able to follow the proceedings for the entire time when we are in private
2 session. Is that to your satisfaction?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So who will be leading the -- yes, so
5 first there is going to be examination-in-chief by Mr. Vanderpuye, correct
6 me if I don't pronounce your name well.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Afterwards, that won't happen today for sure, you
9 will be cross-examined by the various Defence teams. Please try to keep
10 your answers as brief as possible, and when a question is put to you that
11 can be answered with a yes or no, just give a yes or no answer unless you
12 need -- you feel the need to explain further. Have I been clear?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, clear.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for being patient with us. We need to
15 finish today at quarter to 7, not at 7.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good evening, Your Honours ladies and gentlemen I
17 would ask that the pseudonym sheet P22070 be shown to the witness:
18 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
19 Q. May I ask the witness if he is the person named in that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I proceed, Your Honours?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. I just want to make sure one of the
25 Defence teams has a look at the document, and let us have a look at it. I
1 take it, as before, that you're satisfied that Mr. Meek has seen the
2 document. Okay. All right. Yes, go ahead.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honour, I want to apprise the Court of my
4 initial intention to introduce the prior testimony of this witness
5 pursuant to 92 ter. I intend obviously to lay the necessary foundation to
6 do that but I wanted to first, obviously, ask permission to do that.
7 Secondly to advise the Court that it's my intention to read a relatively
8 brief summary of the witness's prior testimony into the record so that --
9 so as to orient the Court to the witness's testimony for purposes of
10 cross-examination, further direct-examination, which I also intend to
11 conduct. So --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's take it up from here straight away.
13 Does anyone of you Defence teams doubt the existence of all the
14 requirements for the application of Rule 92 ter? The witness is present.
15 He's available for cross-examination and questioning by us. We only need
16 to see whether he is in a position to give the attestation that is
17 mentioned in that rule. Any objections to the admittance of his previous
18 testimony under Rule 92 ter? I hear no objections. So you have the
19 authorisation provided that he proceeds with the appropriate attestation.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Judge. Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, may I ask, do you recall having testified in the
22 matter of the Prosecutor versus Radislav Krstic, a proceeding before there
23 Tribunal on the 23rd of May, the year of 2000?
24 A. That's correct.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are allowing it today and I can understand of
1 course the position of the Defence teams in saying no problem with us,
2 because they would have had available already the transcript of the
3 witness's testimony in those previous trials but we have not had that
4 luxury. We only get to see the transcripts when we have admitted them.
5 So the unfortunate part of it is that we are going to start with this
6 witness now without having read what he stated -- what he's testified in
7 the other cases. We are allowing it because basically this is Friday, we
8 have got another 17 minutes left and we can read the transcript over the
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I greatly appreciate that. I do have the summary
11 though that hopefully will orient.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But the summary is a summary so I think once it is
13 admitted we have the right to read it through.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Absolutely.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So in future, we would pretty much agree that you
16 try to admit as many transcripts and statements under Rule 92 ter as much
17 as possible but at least do give us prior, advance notice, of it so that
18 we can procure a copy of the transcripts and be prepared.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do apologise to the Court.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not criticising you. I'm just saying for the
22 MR. JOSSE: I don't want to be unduly difficult and indeed it's
23 not me who is going to be cross-examining the witness. However, we can't
24 locate the summary that my learned friend is referring to. Has it been
25 distributed? I.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it hasn't.
2 MR. JOSSE: That's most unsatisfactory.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an 11th hour -- as I see it, this is an 11th
4 hour decision that has been taken to seek the admittance of the previous
5 transcript of the testimony under Rule 92 ter here, within the sitting
6 itself. You were unprepared for it. We were unprepared for it. But
7 obviously Mr. Vanderpuye, on the assumption that it would be granted, has
8 prepared a summary but we haven't seen it and you haven't seen it. That's
9 how I take it.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Judge, I do apologise to my learned
11 colleague. I was not aware there was a disclosure requirement with
12 respect to the summary of a prior transcribed testimony.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Not a disclosure requirement. It's a question of
14 courtesy more than anything else.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that, and I do apologise to my
16 learned friend.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Josse, once -- I want to be fair to
18 everyone, once you've raised the matter, do you have any objection to us
20 MR. JOSSE: We don't, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that. And anyone else from the
22 Defence. Let's proceed.
23 Mr. Lazarevic, yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, basically I don't have problem with
25 admitting prior statements of this witness, but I would like on behalf of
1 couple of other Defences that I have consulted just a moment ago, to pose
2 two questions. This is not cross-examination. These are just two
3 procedural questions to the witness directly, before we proceed with the
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it like this. Tell the Trial Chamber what
6 you want to know and presumably whether you --
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, the first question is whether this
8 witness speaks English.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what's the other question?
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Whether he had opportunity to read his previous
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think they are two very valid questions. We
13 are not allowing you to put them directly to him because I don't think
14 that's proper.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: But of course Your Honour, I think it's the best
16 way to address the Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken. Two very valid issues that you have
18 raised. Will you deal with them yourself, Mr. Vanderpuye?
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I certainly intend to, Judge. That appears to me
20 to be a foundational issue.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: It is, yeah. Go ahead.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
23 Q. I believe you indicated, Mr. Witness, that you recalled testifying
24 in the matter of the Prosecutor versus Krstic on the 23rd of May 2000; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And on the day that you testified, did you testify under the
3 designated name Witness S?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was the testimony that you offered on that day truthful?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you will an opportunity to have the transcript of your
8 testimony read back to you in a language that you speak and understand?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was that in the language in which you originally gave your
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What language is that?
14 A. Bosnian.
15 Q. During the course of your having reviewed the transcript of your
16 prior testimony, did you indicate that it contained certain errors?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And were the errors as follows: Did you -- did you make a
19 reference to your testimony having contained the term "a ticket"?
20 A. Term "ticket," yes.
21 Q. Yes. And for the purposes of the Court, and I do apologise since
22 you don't have a transcript, that refers to the transcript page 3246,
23 lines 19 through 22. And is that reference to your having had a ticket
25 A. I don't know which ticket you mean.
1 Q. Do you recall having had read back to you a passage in your
2 testimony in which there was an indication that you had a ticket which you
3 had for work?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that is correct.
7 Q. Do you recall having been read back a reference to a village by
8 the name of "Ragacici"?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recall making a reference to a village by the name of
11 "Ragacici" in your testimony?
12 A. Ragacici, no.
13 Q. Did you make a reference to the village by the name of "Magasici"?
14 A. Magasici, yes.
15 Q. And is that the correct reference?
16 A. Where we passed, yes, Magasici.
17 Q. Yes. For the purpose of the record that reference is contained on
18 transcript page 3267, line 18.
19 And sir, do you recall being read back a reference to an
20 individual by the name of Salih Hasanovic?
21 A. Hasan Salihovic.
22 Q. Is that the correct reference with respect to that name?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. For the record that is indicated on page 3266, line 17 of
25 the prior transcript.
1 Sir, aside from these errors, does the transcript fairly and
2 accurately reflect the testimony that you gave on that date, that is the
3 23rd of May, 2000?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does that transcript fairly and accurately reflect what you would
6 say were you to be examined today and asked those same questions?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, at this point I would move to have
9 the transcript admitted under seal as an exhibit in this matter.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
11 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours, may it please the
12 Tribunal, the Trial Chamber, I don't know that there is foundation that
13 the witness has testified today, he has stated that he would say if
14 examined these items, these particular items, but I don't think there has
15 been foundation from this witness that his entire testimony, the
16 transcript that they would like admitted, is accurate and if examined
17 today he would restate all of those things that he testified to
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically Mr. Meek is suggesting that your question
20 was not comprehensive enough and that it should be particularised to what
21 he's just mentioned. In other words, we want to know from you, sir, if
22 you were asked all the same questions that you were asked when you gave
23 testimony in Krstic, would you answer exactly the same, except for these
24 discrepancies, or would your answers be different?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They would be the same.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: They would be the same. Does it satisfy you now,
2 Mr. Meek?
3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Basically if I can just add something to what
6 Mr. Meek said, I cannot interfere in the proceedings that Prosecution has
7 with witnesses and preparing witnesses, but according to my knowledge,
8 there is an existing video evidence of there and every other witness so
9 perhaps the Trial Chamber could see before we agree with the admittance of
10 his previous statement whether something of this kind was shown to the
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Perhaps we can cover that.
13 Mr. Vanderpuye asked you whether the transcript of your previous testimony
14 was translated to you in your own language, and you answered yes. Is that
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Who translated the transcript to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The interpreter.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And were you also shown the video recording of your
20 testimony in Krstic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the picture.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean the picture?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe I can answer that, judge. I believe
24 and perhaps the witness can correct me if I'm wrong that the picture he's
25 referring to is actually the exhibits relating to his testimony that was
1 given in the prior proceeding.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But the thing is that when he says that the
3 transcript of his testimony was read out to him in his own language,
4 basically, it is physical reading out of the transcript in his own
5 language and not viewing the --
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Absolutely.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- video recording. And there was no viewing of the
8 video recording itself.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe the witness can answer that.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, he has to answer it.
11 There was no viewing of the video recording of your testimony, of
12 your previous testimony?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is correct. I just
14 viewed the exhibit, and I read my testimony and then there were a few -- a
15 couple of mistakes that I corrected.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that clarifies the matter
17 completely. I see that Mr. Lazarevic is also -- seems to be also content
18 with that. So it's move. We've got another three minutes or so.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, to be honest, judge, I don't think I can
20 get through the summary in two or three minutes, but I did want to clarify
21 the record on one issue relating to the witness's having heard his
22 testimony. If I may put a question to the witness in that regard?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Go ahead.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, was it the case that an individual read to you your
2 A. No. I read it myself.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the second part of
4 the sentence.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE:
6 Q. Did you make use of an interpreter when you reviewed your
7 testimony in the -- on May the 20th -- 23rd of 2000?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Okay.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So were you -- in other words let's get this clear.
11 Were you provided an entire copy of your testimony in Krstic in the
12 Serbo-Croat language or in the Bosnian language? Or was it in English?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I read it in Bosnian, and I
14 noticed a couple of mistakes like the name Salih Hasanovic instead of --
15 well, we just corrected it now.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Now, there is a -- one thing that
17 you need to do, Mr. Vanderpuye, because our staff will be gone. We've
18 only got one left. We need the copy of this transcript which is not yet
19 in e-court, I suppose. Is it? Then please -- we won't be able to access
20 it from home. So the case manager of the Prosecution, if you could kindly
21 e-mail the transcript to each one of us so that we can read it over the
23 Yes, Mr. Meek?
24 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, the way I
25 understand this, there is a transcript in B/C/S. Our clients have not
1 been provided with that. We've asked for this on many occasions
2 especially with there kind of a witness. We didn't object to them doing
3 this in the spirit of goodwill.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine this was translated purposely for
5 this witness. They don't translate transcripts into --
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Judge, I think Mr. Meek is -- I won't say he's
7 mistaken because the record speaks for itself, but I believe that there is
8 either a translation error or the witness is has misapprehended the
9 questions that have been put to him. With respect to the statement that
10 he's read --
11 MR. JOSSE: I don't want my learned friend to give evidence.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: You're 100 per cent right, Mr. Josse. Let's leave
13 it at this. We'll take it up on Monday morning and not in front of the
14 witness. All right? Not in front of the witness.
15 Now, sir, we will continue on Monday morning. You have a long
16 weekend to rest during which time you are not to communicate or allow
17 anyone to communicate with you on the subject matter of your testimony.
18 Do you understand me?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we'll meet again Monday morning at
21 9.00. Have a nice weekend.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.47 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of
24 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.