1 Monday, 30 October 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar. Could you
7 kindly call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. All the accused are here.
11 Again, if you have any problems with interpretation, please draw my
12 attention straight away. Defence teams are all here, only noticeable or
13 conspicuous absence is Mr. Bourgon. We will have less objections today.
14 Prosecution, that's Mr. Vanderpuye and Mr. McCloskey.
15 The witness is already in his place.
16 Good morning to you, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-112 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Last Friday, I explained to you the protective
21 measures which have been put in place for your benefit so that you can
22 testify without any background worries in your mind and you can testify
23 with more tranquillity. You also made a -- took a solemn undertaking with
24 us that you will testify the truth. Mr. Vanderpuye and the registrar have
25 made available over the weekend a copy of the transcript of your previous
1 testimony, which we have carefully perused.
2 I take it that you will proceed with reading out a brief summary
3 of that testimony now, Mr. Vanderpuye.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: With the Court's permission, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And it could well be that after reading out
6 this summary, Mr. Vanderpuye might have some more questions for you.
7 After that, I will hand you over to the seven defence teams for the
8 cross-examination. Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, good morning, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Rather than lose time, I was just checking because
13 my memory failed me, whether last Friday we dealt with the foundation
14 issues, in other words, whether you asked the witness if he had gone
15 through -- yes. In fact we had also the question of how he went through
16 it, the translation, yeah, okay. All right. Make sure that the
17 requirements of the provision of Rule 92 ter are fully met, fully
18 observed. Thank you.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. May I proceed?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, sir.
22 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
23 Q. Last Friday, Mr. Witness, there seemed to be some confusion with
24 respect to the documents that you reviewed and I wanted to ask some
25 questions just to clarify the record.
1 I believe you initially indicated that you had had an interpreter
2 read back to you your prior testimony in the matter of Prosecutor versus
3 Krstic in which you testified on the 23rd of May of 2000. Do you
4 recall -- do you recall testifying in that manner?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was that the case?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also indicated that you had read certain documents on your own
9 without the benefit of an interpreter. Is that the case?
10 A. That is not the case. Things were misinterpreted to me. And I
11 apologise to the Trial Chamber. It was in English. The interpreter
12 interpreted things to me. I spotted a few errors that I corrected and
13 that was that.
14 Q. Okay. Now, I'd asked you also on Friday whether or not, having
15 reviewed your prior testimony in the other trial, whether or not were
16 questions to be put to you regarding that testimony you would answer the
17 same way as if you were examined here today. Is that the case?
18 A. Yes. That is the case.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, I would offer at this time the
20 prior transcript -- the prior testimony of PW-112 in evidence at this
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objections from the Defence teams? I
23 wouldn't imagine so. So, yes, it is so admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Just so the record is clear, I'm
25 referring to Exhibit P02272, which is the transcript, as I understand it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a new document.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think if I remember well, even last time, Mr.
6 Vanderpuye himself hinted that it should be so.
7 I think it needs to be kept under seal.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, please, Judge. And I would also ask that
9 the exhibits that are attendant to that testimony be admitted as well as
10 integral to that testimony.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you better specify them at some point in
12 time either during the break.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. That would be a good time.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I proceed with the summary?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be under seal and please go through the
19 documents that are attached to it to make sure that what needs to be under
20 seal will remain under seal, all right? What need not be under seal will
21 retain public. Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: "1. Witness PW-112 lived in Srebrenica with his
23 wife, two children in July 1995. Prior to the arrival of UNPROFOR forces,
24 PW-112 acknowledged that a Territorial Defence existed in the protected
25 area, of which PW-112 had been formally a member. Until about a year
1 before the war, PW-112 had good relations with Serbs which had since
3 "2. On 11 July 1995, PW-112 was forced to separate from his
4 family because of the advance of Serb forces who had, by that date, "Taken
5 over half the town from the hill of Bojna." That's a reference to
6 transcript page 3239, lines 23 through 24. "The decision was made to
7 separate at that time because PW-112 saw there was no possibility of
8 safety in remaining any longer.
9 "3. At around 2.30 p.m., PW-112 left Srebrenica together with
10 several men towards the village of Slatine and Susnjari while his family
11 went to Potocari. PW-112 estimates that the men gathered at Susnjari at
12 the time of his arrival (about 10 p.m.) numbered around 12.000 to 15.000
13 with, approximately one-third lightly armed with hunting rifles and other
14 types of small arms. PW-112 himself had a grenade which he intended to
15 commit suicide with if captured.
16 "4. PW-112 together with several men left Susnjari at around
17 midnight on 11th of July going into the 12th, following an informal
18 gathering with the other men. During this gathering, the men were lined
19 up and those with weapons were interspersed among those unarmed to better
20 protect lives against likely ambushes and men were lined up so that as
21 many people could cross the nearby Serb lines as possible.
22 "5. Among the people leading this group were, "The head of the
23 municipality, those in charge of civilian authority, and some others who
24 were in Srebrenica in the course of the war, the chiefs of some
25 secretariats, for example." There were also some "Territorial Defence"
1 people there." And that's a reference to transcript page 3242, line 1
2 through 4.
3 "6. On the 12th of July 1995, from about 5 a.m. until 11.30 a.m.,
4 PW-112 was at Buljim in front of the first Serb lines, the column of men
5 had been interrupted. Shortly after 11.30 a.m., PW-112 crossed Serb lines
6 together with a group of men. The group encountered a Serb ambush
7 thereafter near a stream.
8 "7. PW-112 escaped the ambush reaching Kamenica hill and catching
9 up with part of the column that had preceded his group across Serb lines.
10 There the men were reorganised and proceeded toward the village of
11 Kamenica where they arrived that evening. The group then moved on to the
12 village of Burnice arriving there at about midnight on the night of 12th
13 July. PW-112 fell asleep or lost consciousness shortly thereafter.
14 "8. At around 3 a.m. on 13th July, PW-112 awoke finding himself
15 alone. The witness was in a "grassland and then went into a corn field."
16 Referring to transcript page 3244 line 21. "At this point, PW-112
17 referred to Exhibit in the prior matter, Exhibit number 176 which was a
18 map indicating the position between Kravica and Rijeka about a kilometre
19 south of Konjevic Polje."
20 "9. Having some familiarity with the area and recognising a
21 bridge going towards Kasaba, PW-112 proceeded down towards the Kravica
22 River ("the river which flows from the Kravica direction and it flows
23 under the bridge and joins up with the Jadar River." Transcript page
24 3245, lines 1 through 3. "From the bridge, PW-112 decided not to attempt
25 to cross the river and went back to the corn field.
1 "10. While in the corn field, PW-112 heard the sound of people
2 closeby and tried to avoid being seen by going into a partially burned
3 down house. In doing so, PW-112 stepped on a broken roof tile and was
4 detected. Following shots above his head, PW-112 was directed to
5 surrender by police in dark blue camouflage uniforms. PW-112 recognised
6 one of the policemen.
7 "11. Following his surrender, one of the first things taken from
8 PW-112 was his identification. His wallet, diary, telephone directory and
9 money were taken from his person. Also taken was the grenade contained in
10 his bag. PW-112 was then ordered by one of the policemen to, "lie down so
11 I can slit your throat." Referring to transcript page 3247, lines 21
12 through 22. "Though he complied, a second policeman whom PW-112 also
13 recognised, directed that he be left alone. Thereafter, PW-112 was taken
14 by this policeman to an area in front of a school in which there were a
15 couple of soldiers in camouflage uniforms guarding a shed (a small
16 building). At this point the witness referred to Exhibit 177 depicting a
17 small shed indicating that he entered this little brick building in the
18 front and from the right side.
19 "12. Inside the shed, PW-112 recognised two individuals, both
20 Muslim captives. From the shed, PW-112 was taken across a meadow to
21 another house for questioning. Together with the other captives, PW-112
22 was taken to a house in front of which four men in military camouflage
23 uniforms were sitting around a table. The witness did not see any
24 insignia. At this point in his testimony the witness referred to Exhibit
25 number 178, indicating a building in front of which there was a tree.
1 "13. Between approximately 7 and 9 a.m., PW-112 was questioned.
2 During the questioning, PW-112 was not beaten and received something to
3 eat and drink. During the questioning, PW-112 was told by one of the
4 questioners who identified himself as Cica that he had been in command of
5 the operation on Srebrenica in 1993 in the year of Kragljivoda and Osmace.
6 Following this, PW-112 was directed along with the other captives to take
7 notice of 12 buses which had come by with women and children on board. At
8 this time, one of the soldiers commented, "You see how respectful they
9 (referring to the soldiers) were of us (referring to the Muslims) that
10 they didn't force too many people on to the buses but only as many as
11 could sit down." Referring to transcript page 3258, lines 8 through
12 10. "The statement was acknowledged by PW-112. "A short while after this
13 exchange, PW-112 was directed to another house in front of the one where
14 the questioning occurred.
15 "14. This house was empty and PW-112 and the other captives were
16 held on the ground floor. Later, a 14 to 15 year old boy was brought in.
17 He was subsequently taken into the hallway and beaten and then brought
18 back. After a while, and over a period of time, three men were brought
19 in, one of whom was known to PW-112. Thereafter, a Serb man known to
20 PW-112 came in, directing and accompanying PW-112 and two other men and
21 the young boy to a warehouse near the banks of the Jadar river.
22 "15. The warehouse was a location that PW-112 knew to be an
23 agricultural chemist where medicines for agricultural purposes could be
24 purchased. When PW-112 arrived at the warehouse, he recognised another of
25 his captives. Upon entering, PW-112 was taken to the smaller of two
1 rooms. Inside there were men in military camouflage uniforms armed with
2 rifles and automatic weapons. These men directed PW-112, as well as the
3 other men, to remove their clothes. Thereafter, together with the other
4 men, he was lined up against a wall and beaten. In addition to PW-112 and
5 the other -- and the two men and the boy that accompanied him, 12 other
6 individuals were lined up and beaten.
7 "16. Later on PW-112 and the other men were told to get dressed
8 and were subsequently transferred to a larger room. This was the former
9 public part of the agricultural shop. The men were again lined up prone
10 against a wall and beaten with batons. Following this, a bus driver -- a
11 bus driven by a blond woman parked in front of the warehouse. PW-112 was
12 directed to enter the bus with his hands behind his neck, among a group of
13 16 men. Two men were left behind. None were permitted to sit down.
14 "17. Together with the other 15 men, four Serb soldiers armed
15 with automatic weapons entered the bus. The bus proceeded and stopped a
16 short time later. At this time the witness referred to Exhibit number
17 176, which is a map, with a yellow dot indicating the location -- a
18 location near the dot where the bus stopped and where there was a widening
19 of the road with the river off to the right.
20 "18. Sometime before noon on the 13th of July, the men were
21 ordered off the bus and lined up against a fence or a guard rail. The men
22 were then directed to proceed downhill away from the roadside toward a
23 bank of the Jadar river. PW-112 was third in line. Once at the river
24 bank, the men were lined up again, after which the soldiers, including one
25 of the individuals known to PW-112, opened fire. PW-112 was struck from
1 behind in the left hip and fell into the water. PW-112 was carried
2 downstream while being continually fired upon.
3 "19. Eventually, PW-112 was able to draw himself out of the water
4 on to a meadow where he surveyed his injuries. He was bleeding heavily
5 and had difficulty moving but managed to break off a branch of a tree to
6 assist himself in walking. The witness referred to Exhibit number 182,
7 showing the river bank, and also referred to Exhibit number is 83, showing
8 the bullet wound to his hip."
9 That concludes my summary at this point. If I may, Your Honours,
10 I would like to further inquire of the witness with respect to certain
11 information that I think is relevant to your assessment of his credibility
12 and the testimony.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.
14 JUDGE KWON: Before that can I have a small clarification. In
15 paragraph 2, you said the witness was forced to separate but it was his
16 decision in light of the situation and he was not forced by a Serb or
17 somebody like that.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, the reference to force, Your Honour, refers
19 to an involuntary action based upon the circumstances which he was
20 confronted with.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I inquire?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, are you presently employed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And without telling us what kind of work, or without telling us
3 where you are employed, can you tell us what kind of work you do?
4 A. I work at a company putting together different pieces. This is
5 part of the electronic industry and I'm a mechanic by trade.
6 Q. And how long have you been employed in this capacity?
7 A. Since 2004. And before that, I was employed somewhere else.
8 Q. Do you presently live alone?
9 A. No. I live with my family, with my wife and two children.
10 Q. And for how long have you been married?
11 A. Since 1989.
12 Q. And can you tell us how old your children are presently,
14 A. My older son is 16 and my younger son is 13 going on 14.
15 Q. And at the time that you fled Srebrenica, can you tell us
16 approximately how old they were?
17 A. They were five and two respectively, the younger was born in
18 February of 1993.
19 Q. For how long had you lived in Srebrenica municipality before 11
20 July 1995?
21 A. I lived there from the beginning of April 1992 until the fall of
22 Srebrenica in 1995.
23 Q. And prior to that, did you live in another municipality or town?
24 A. Before that, from 1979, I resided in Bratunac.
25 Q. And for what reason in particular did you move to Srebrenica from
2 A. For safety reasons. The town had already been emptied. There was
3 no communication between Bratunac and Srebrenica. One could not travel
4 from Bratunac to Srebrenica -- Bratunac to Srebrenica. That's why I
5 decided to withdraw to Srebrenica.
6 Q. Now, in July of 1995, were you -- well, let me ask you this.
8 Prior to your move to Srebrenica, were you a member of the armed
10 A. Before I moved to Srebrenica? No.
11 Q. And did you become a member of the armed forces following your
12 move to Srebrenica?
13 A. This was the Territorial Defence, and I became a member of the
14 Territorial Defence towards the end of April 1992, and I stayed a member
15 until January 1993.
16 Q. After January 1993, what did you do?
17 A. I was demobilised and I was engaged on civilian jobs in the
18 municipality. I worked as a courier. And later on, up to the fall of
19 Srebrenica, I was employed by the DutchBat.
20 Q. Now, when you say you were employed by the DutchBat, in what
21 capacity were you so employed?
22 A. As a worker doing cleaning and other menial jobs, tidying up after
23 lunch and such things.
24 Q. And for about how long did you do that?
25 A. For the last three and a half months.
1 Q. Now, with respect to your job working for the DutchBat, did you
2 receive any kind of identification?
3 A. Yes. We received a card with our first and last name and
4 photograph on it so that we could enter the DutchBat compound.
5 Q. And is that the same identification to which your testimony in the
6 previous trial refers?
7 A. Yes, it is. It's the same identification but we had other
8 documents such as our personal ID cards from the former Yugoslavia and
9 other documents.
10 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the evening hours of 10th of
11 July 1995, if I may. On that day, and around that time, did you take any
12 action with regard to securing your family's safety?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us briefly what if anything you did in that regard?
15 A. The last workday with DutchBat was the 8th of July. They told us
16 then not to come any more because the situation was getting worse. On the
17 10th, in the evening, or in the afternoon sometime, the Serbs shelled the
18 upper part of town so people were already withdrawing towards the camp in
19 Srebrenica. Panic had broken out and I went with my family, together, to
20 the DutchBat compound. This were some soldiers there who sold me -- who
21 saw me. I spoke German so they told me to follow them towards Potocari.
22 An APC was driving in front and a column of people was walking behind the
23 APC. We came to the place called Solotusa where one shell was then fired
24 from the Caus hill and it fell on the left side of the road into a field.
25 That's when they stopped me. People ran off to all the different houses
1 that were around.
2 Then later, they used communications to get in touch with someone
3 and then we went to the auto school training area. They went to the
4 right. They came out of the APC, and they were shielding themselves
5 behind some containers and then they explained to us that they couldn't
6 guarantee our safety any more. That's when I went to an acquaintance of
7 mine and I spent sometime there and then in the evening, around 10 p.m., I
8 went back to town.
9 Q. During the time that you were following this APC, were you with
10 your family?
11 A. Yes. I was carrying my younger son, and my wife was sometimes
12 carrying and sometimes just leading the older son.
13 Q. Approximately how far outside of Srebrenica did you get before the
14 shell was fired from the hill of Caus?
15 A. Three and a half to four kilometres.
16 Q. And did you walk that entire distance?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And approximately where were you relative to the APC when the
19 shell landed?
20 A. I was a couple of metres behind the APC.
21 Q. And approximately how far from the APC did the shell land?
22 A. Some 200 to 300 metres into the field on the left side of the road
23 and on the left side of the river.
24 Q. And if you can, can you approximate for the Court the number of
25 people that were actually following this APC?
1 A. I can't give you the exact number but it was between 300 to 500
2 people, perhaps more.
3 Q. After you were informed that your safety could no longer be
4 guaranteed, did you return back to Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes. I returned to Srebrenica, to the apartment where I was
6 living. The building was full of people in the halls. There were also
7 some acquaintances and some people that I didn't know in my own apartment.
8 There were people in the hall, on the stairs, inside.
9 Q. And did you discuss the prospect of leaving Srebrenica with those
10 other people?
11 A. Not at the time because nobody knew what was going to happen.
12 Q. Had you considered staying in the town of Srebrenica or in the
13 vicinity in the face of the Serb advance into that area?
14 A. Everybody was waiting to see what the people who were in power
15 would do, so it was expected but nobody expected that it would be as bad
16 as it was. The next day we were in front of the post office. When the UN
17 observers left the post office, there were some contacts. They were
18 speaking with the Presidency, with the government, and then around 2.00 or
19 3.00 p.m. the decision was made to leave.
20 Q. Now, when you made the decision to leave, did you take into
21 consideration -- well, what specifically did you take into consideration
22 in making the determination that you needed to leave?
23 A. From death or based on earlier experiences with the Serbs, nobody
24 could expect to break through or anything like that.
25 Q. When you say "based on earlier experiences with the Serbs," could
1 you briefly tell us what you mean by that?
2 A. There were many factors. The very beginning of the war in 1992,
3 when the people that we lived with turned about at one point, to a
4 completely different direction and from my experiences with neighbours
5 with whom I was on good terms before, they were saying we had to leave.
6 We said why? And then in a conversation they would say, some people would
7 come but nobody knew who would come. So you would lose confidence. They
8 said it would be better for you to leave. So actually, one of the main
9 reasons was actually that I left Bratunac, the municipality of Bratunac,
10 to go to the municipality of Srebrenica. So because of all those things
11 that were going on, it was actually all of those things that were the
12 reason to leave.
13 Q. Well, when you refer to all of those things that are going on, are
14 you referring specifically to things that were going on in Bratunac or
15 other areas?
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, that's a leading question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. Would you like to respond to
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, I may have missed the nature of the
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your objection again, Mr. Krgovic,
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Actually I see it, Judge. Yes, I can respond to
24 that. I'm simply asking the witness what he's referring to because his
25 answer was relatively vague. If you would like, I can rephrase the
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, just rephrase the question. I think it can be
3 done quickly, in the simplest of forms.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE:
5 Q. Whether you say -- when you refer to things that are were going
7 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you referring to?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE:
9 Q. What specifically are you referring to?
10 A. Detaining people at the playground in Bratunac, the burning of
11 surrounding villages, Glogova, Rance, Cerovac, Mihajlovici, and then from
12 other people who managed to flee from those areas, to the municipality of
13 Srebrenica area, we heard what was going on. These were the main reasons.
14 The surrounding villages were burned. A lot of the population was
15 expelled from this playing field to the -- in the direction of Tuzla. It
16 was conversations with the people who fled other areas to come to the
17 Srebrenica area.
18 Detention at the playing field, calling out people who had some
19 money on them or calling out of influential people. Things like that.
20 Q. Had you had the opportunity to discuss those matters with other
21 people in your community before the 11th of July 1995?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you say whether or not in your estimation these events
24 were generally well known in your community?
25 A. Yes. I spoke with people who had fled, and whom some Serbs left
1 when they caught them in the bus, in the village of Rance, because they
2 recognised some of them, even though they had stockings on their head. We
3 couldn't believe ourselves that these people that we were on good terms
4 with ended up killing. The reasons to leave Srebrenica in 1995 were quite
5 important reasons.
6 Q. Now, having worked at the DutchBat base, did you have a fair
7 amount of contact with those soldiers?
8 A. Yes. With some of them who spoke some German. We spoke when they
9 were in the bar or we played billiards sometimes during a break. With
10 those who wanted to be in contact.
11 Q. And when you decided to leave Srebrenica on the 11th of July 1995,
12 did you do so at the behest of the DutchBat soldiers or at the behest of
14 A. No. Not specifically, but the actual belief of the people who
15 were supposed to offer us protection, they were unable to do that, and
16 then the experience that I had with the ID that I had from them, and the
17 fact that they could not protect me, and if they couldn't, what could I do
18 then? There were people who also worked in Potocari, I don't want to
19 mention them, who didn't come, and others.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honours, for the next part of my
21 examination, I would request if we could go into private session.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 3215-3216 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: At this point, Your Honours, I just wanted to
3 introduce some additional exhibits.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I'd like to have the witness shown 65 ter
6 number 1618, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry, Judge.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, have you had an opportunity to see this photograph
10 before today?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And can you tell us what's depicted in this photograph?
13 A. You can see the crossroads at Konjevic Polje and you can see the
14 bridge leading to Kasaba. You can also see where the Kravica River flows
15 into the Jadar River.
16 Q. Do you recall seeing a photograph, this particular photograph,
17 prior to today, in my office?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have called up, please, P02274?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's the problem?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just wondering if the photograph could be
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But I --
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a hard copy of the photograph. It might
1 be faster just to put it on the ELMO.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I rotated mine already.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could we make it a little bit bigger so that the
4 witness could have a good look at it? Thank you very much.
5 Q. Do you recognise that document, sir? That photograph?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, do you see a marking on that photograph, a circle?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek?
9 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I would object to the witness being
10 shown a photograph that's previously been marked. I thought we went over
11 this earlier. I thought photographs were supposed to be put in front of
12 witnesses clean and let them mark them and I object to this -- the way
13 they are doing this.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I also noticed, Mr. Haynes.
15 MR. HAYNES: I support that objection and I also did Mr.
16 Vanderpuye the courtesy of informing him that I would object to this on
17 Friday afternoon.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Vanderpuye, what's your position on this?
19 Who marked -- is this the witness's same marking?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just about to put the question to him. The
21 answer is yes. And I was about to put the question to him to see if he
22 could identify the markings that are on the photograph and elicit from him
23 the circumstances, the time or the location in which those markings were
24 made by him.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this witness, as marked, was -- sorry, was this
1 photo, as marked, used in the previous proceedings?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: In the Krstic trial?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: M'hm.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, it was not. It's a new exhibit and it's
5 predicated on 65 ter number 1618 which was shown to him initially.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Then go ahead.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recognise the markings that are depicted on
9 the photo that's now before you?
10 A. Yes. I made this marking.
11 Q. Okay. And did you make these markings prior to today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were those markings made in my office?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what are those markings meant to depict or to show on this
17 A. This is where the agricultural storage depot was before the war,
18 and during the war. Now there is a gas station there.
19 Q. And is this a fair and accurate depiction of the intersection of
20 Konjevic Polje?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Skip that. I think you covered that in your
22 previous question.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well. Okay. I'd also like to have another
24 exhibit shown to the witness.
25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I'm sorry, but frankly, I can't see any
1 markings on the photograph in front of me. Maybe he could point it out
2 with the pen.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, I can. But if
4 you can't, then obviously -- yeah.
5 Could you mark an arrow pointing to the markings that in your mind
6 Mr. Vanderpuye has just referred you to?
7 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to know if counsel would be able to blow up
8 their picture on their own.
9 MR. MEEK: Sorry, Your Honour, we cannot do that. On the middle
10 screen here, we get -- we see what we get.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Kwon.
12 Witness, please place an arrow pointing to the markings on that
13 photo that Mr. Vanderpuye asked you a question about a few minutes ago.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the part here.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's okay. It's not an arrow but I can
16 live with it. Is it okay for you now, Mr. Meek?
17 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And if you look carefully you will
19 notice the outline of the previous circle in blue.
20 All right. Thank you. Your next question, Mr. Vanderpuye?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I had -- well let me ask the witness the
23 Q. Do you see a church in that photograph? And that is referring to
24 P02274, the photograph before you.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was that church there at around the time that you've indicated
2 you were at that location in 1995?
3 A. No. That church was built in 1997 or 1998. I never knew that
4 there was a church here before.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could the witness put a mark, put PW-112 next to
6 that red circle that he's put on the photo, please? PW- ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I didn't quite
8 understand what I'm supposed to do.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Write "PW-112" next to that circle.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have the witness shown 65 ter 1935,
14 Q. Mr. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What do you recognise that photograph to be?
17 A. This is the house where we were kept for a brief period of time
18 after the interrogation.
19 Q. Okay. And is that the house to which you referred in your prior
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is it a fair and accurate depiction of the building in which
23 you were held for a brief period of time?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to have the witness shown P02275,
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we finally have it on the screen.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
4 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, sir?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. And what do you recognise this photograph to be?
7 A. This is the house and two trees in front of the house where we
8 were interrogated by men wearing uniforms.
9 Q. And is this the house to which your prior testimony refers as the
10 side of the interrogation?
11 A. Yes, in front of the house.
12 Q. And is it a fair and accurate depiction of the house as you recall
13 it having been in 1995?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have the witness shown, please, 65 ter
16 number 1924?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a way of speeding this up? It's very slow.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE:
19 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, sir?
20 A. Yes. This is my wound, the wound on my body.
21 Q. And is this the wound to which you referred in your prior
22 testimony that you gave on 23 May 2000?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. This is the bullet wound you received during the time of the
25 execution on 13th of July?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. Can you indicate on the photograph from which direction the bullet
3 entered and from which direction the bullet exited?
4 A. This is where it entered. And this is where it exited.
5 Q. Please -- could you please initial the photograph?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just put PW-112, "P" for papa, "W" for whiskey, 112.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
8 MR. VANDERPUYE:
9 Q. And could you put the number 1 for the entry and the number 2 for
10 the exit?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you, sir. I have nothing further at this point.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Does the original of this photo -- is the original
14 of this photo black and white or does it exist in colour? Do you know,
15 Mr. Vanderpuye?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Maybe I can ask the witness, Judge.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE:
19 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know, sir, whether or not the original of this
20 photograph is in black and white or it's in colour?
21 A. I wouldn't know. This was done here at the Tribunal, and I
22 believe that this is the original because the last time I saw it it was
23 also black and white.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Judge, I will make a determination as to whether
25 it -- the indication is it's a Polaroid photograph, so it's likely in
1 colour, but I will find that out and get that information to the Court as
2 soon as I can.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I take it
4 there are no further questions from the Prosecution, which means we are
5 now going to start with the series of cross-examinations.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, we have changed the order of the
7 cross-examination, so the Defence of General Gvero is going to be first.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic.
9 Witness, it's Mr. Krgovic, who is lead counsel for General Gvero
10 and he will be the first one to cross-examine you. May I just have a very
11 quick indication where we stand? How long do you think you're
12 cross-examination will last?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Half an hour, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And then Mr. Zivanovic? The same?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's one hour and Mr. Meek or Mr. Ostojic?
17 MR. MEEK: Judge, since the schedule has changed, it maybe half an
18 hour or no questions. I don't know.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's one hour and a half. Mr.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, definitely less than 30 minutes, if any.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. Ms. Nikolic?
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] A quarter of an hour, if any at all.
24 It will depend on the previous cross-examination.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] 30 minutes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes?
2 MR. HAYNES: 30 minutes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Miracles do happen. Yes, Mr. Krgovic, sorry for
4 having interrupted you like that but please go ahead. We'll have a break
5 at 10.30 or thereabouts, depending on when it's more convenient for you.
6 Thank you.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
8 Q. Good morning, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I'll try and put questions to you so as to enable you to answer by
11 just yes or no, but I would kindly ask you to pause before answering since
12 we speak the same language and we need to be interpreted for everybody in
13 the courtroom.
14 A. Very well.
15 Q. In addition to your previous testimony, you have provided several
16 statements to this Tribunal and also you provided statements to the organs
17 of security in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. In your testimony before this Tribunal, which you confirmed on
20 examination-in-chief, you said that you were a member of the TO in 1992
21 until the end of 1993. Is that correct?
22 A. Beginning of 1993.
23 Q. After that, you were in charge of being a liaison officer between
24 the civilian organs and the front line in Srebrenica; is that correct?
25 A. No.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
2 Exhibit 5D84?
3 Q. This is page 1. Do you remember having provided this statement to
4 the Prosecutor's Office of this Tribunal?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown page
7 1 of this document? In other words, the following page of the document.
8 Q. Sir, look at paragraph 1 and look at the last sentence in that
9 paragraph, I'm going to read it to you. "I was a courier between the
10 civilian authorities and the defence lines." Do you remember having
11 stated that?
12 A. This was a mistranslation. I was a courier in a department of the
13 municipality of Srebrenica and I did not perform any courier services
14 between the lines and the municipality.
15 Q. In other words, you were a member of the Secretariat for National
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Of the Srebrenica municipality?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was your job?
21 A. I was a courier.
22 Q. And the fact that you maintained contact between the municipality
23 and defence lines is actually not correct?
24 A. No, it's not correct.
25 Q. After those days around the 10th of July, you were aware of the
1 developments around Srebrenica, once the attack had started on Srebrenica,
2 and you had information as to what was going on; is that correct?
3 A. No, it's not.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
5 Exhibit number 5D82?
6 Q. Sir, you provided a statement to the higher court in Tuzla on the
7 2nd of August 1995. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Is this your statement?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I prefer to be extra cautious rather than take
12 risks. Please stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Private session, no
14 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Krgovic, as usual, please use your good
24 judgement, exercise the greatest caution as you proceed. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, do we have English translation of
1 these documents? Let's proceed.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Krgovic, again my apologies for the
3 interruption. Go ahead, please.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, look at the sentence in the upper part where it says, "First
6 they took up the UNPROFOR check-point at green Jadar, the UNPROFOR had
7 withdrawn from there leaving the materiel and technical supplies. That's
8 why the army was forced to take up the position above the green Jadar and
9 maintained it for a few days." Do you remember that part of your
10 statement given to the Court in Tuzla?
11 A. Maybe in a different forum. This statement is full of mistakes.
12 I was hospitalised at the time and I was forced to give that statement,
13 and these are not the only mistakes. There are a lot of things that I
14 don't agree with in this statement. I signed it there, but I would like
15 to answer other questions.
16 Q. Who forced you to give that statement?
17 A. The people who were in charge of collecting information from the
18 victims of war and from the survivors.
19 Q. Let me draw your attention to the bottom of the page, the sentence
20 starts with the following words: "All the men were told to start moving
21 towards Susnjari because the --"
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement was
23 signed by the witness and the signature is visible at the bottom of the
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's okay. As long as this is not being
1 broadcast, we do not have a problem because I understand this is just for
2 our convenience. But the important thing is that there are no people in
3 the public gallery that can visibly read your -- what you have on your
4 monitors, which I don't think is the case today, and otherwise you may
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall continue.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Word was circulated that all men should go towards Susnjari where
10 there would be an assembly point. Women, children and the old were to go
11 to the UNPROFOR base at Potocari where UNPROFOR should have provided them
12 with protection. It was agreed that we should leave Susnjari in a column
13 and small groups and go through the Chetnik lines towards Tuzla." Is this
14 how things transpired at the moment when it was decided that all the men
15 would start moving towards Tuzla?
16 A. Nobody made that decision. A majority of the men started moving
17 towards Slatina and Susnjari. The plan was to try and break through
18 towards Tuzla and this was the only route that one could take to get there
20 Q. As for this decision, was this communicated to you by the
21 president of the municipality?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Sir, when you arrived in Susnjari, a group was formed, led by the
24 president of the municipality, Osman Suljic; is that correct?
25 A. Not just Osman Suljic, everybody else who worked at the
1 municipality was there and the group was not formed. Some 12.000 to
2 15.000 people arrived there. Some had already passed through the Serb
3 lines. Nothing was formed. People just arrived there from all over the
4 place, from the direction of Potocari, Bljeceva, Slatina and other
6 Q. And Osman Suljic was the leader of the group in which you moved?
7 A. No.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
9 Exhibit number 5D83?
10 Q. Sir, do you remember that you provided this statement?
11 A. No.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the last
13 page of this statement.
14 A. I apologise. I signed this statement but there is another one
15 that you might show later which I never provided. I did provide this
17 Q. Did the events described in this statement reflect your best
18 recollection at the time?
19 A. This was an August, when I was discharged from the hospital. I
20 don't agree with all the details in this statement.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown page
22 3 in this document?
23 Q. Sir, could you please look at the sentence at the top of the
24 page. It says: "That my group was led by Osman", and then part was
25 redacted. "The president of the municipality of Srebrenica. In that
1 group there were also my and the names are mentioned, of the people who
2 were in that group." Do you remember having stated that?
3 A. The column was from Susnjari to Buljim which is about two or three
4 kilometres. I did not manage to leave Susnjari from 12 midnight until
5 5.00 in the morning, so you can imagine how long the column was.
6 Q. I'm just asking you whether Osman Suljic led your group?
7 A. No, nobody led the group. We just walked one after another.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this would be a
9 convenient time for our first break.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Krgovic. We will have a 25-minute
11 break starting from now. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We continue.
15 We are informed that the Prosecution, to what Mr. McCloskey -- Mr.
16 Nicholls, have asked for an extension of the time for filing the proofing
17 chart from the 30th -- 31st of October, which is the date we had fixed,
18 way back, to the 10th of November. We are also informed by our Senior
19 Legal Officer, Mr. Cubbon that there is no objection on the part of the
20 Defence teams. I take it that is confirmed. Yes. I hear no objections
21 there. So yes, we are granting the extension to the 10th of November, Mr.
22 McCloskey. Thank you.
23 The other thing I wanted to know is that in preparing our
24 decisions on the protective measure motions, the two motions that we very
25 briefly touched upon last Friday, it's not clear to us if, when you stood
1 up, Ms. Nikolic, you answered or you gave the green light in relation to
2 both motions or whether it was restricted only to one of the motions. If
3 you could clarify that, please.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It referred to
5 only one of those requests for Witnesses 50 and 54, the motion was
6 submitted on Friday for the current week. The other requests we will be
7 able to let you know during the course of today or tomorrow. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you so much. So that confirms what I
9 thought. So let's proceed with the witness, please. Thank you.
10 Mr. Krgovic.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, I'm going to continue. Do you remember my last question,
13 which you answered? And it was whether Osman Suljic was there. Did you
14 see him that day?
15 A. In front of the post office and around the post office, yes, but
16 later, no.
17 Q. Mr. Suljic was wearing a camouflage uniform and he had a weapon,
18 do you recall that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If I were to tell you that according to testimonies before this
21 Trial Chamber, he went for meetings with UNPROFOR that day and he was
22 walking around in a camouflage uniform with a weapon, would that lead to
23 you change anything in what you said?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Sir, does that mean that this sentence, which I read out to you
1 before the break, that Osman Suljic was the president of the municipality
2 of Srebrenica and that he was leading your group, was incorrect?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. Did you sign this statement?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever, when you talked with the representatives from the
7 Prosecutor's Office, and the investigators, when you were submitting
8 corrections, did you ask that that part be corrected?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was this done?
11 A. I think that it was not.
12 Q. When I showed you your previous statement given to the
13 investigators of this Tribunal, when you spoke about your position, did
14 you, when the statement was read back to you, point to that mistake?
15 A. I think that this was a mistake in the translation, a courier
16 between the civilian and the military authorities.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness again look at
18 document 5D84, both versions, English and the B/C/S version? The next
19 page, please. And in English, please.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, make sure there is no broadcast of this;
21 okay? Thank you.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I'm going to read it to you in English, what it states in the
24 English version of your statement. "I was a courier between the civilian
25 authorities and the lines of defence."
1 [Interpretation] I don't see any mistakes in the translation
2 between -- in these two statements. And investigator Ruez who took this
3 statement, did you indicate this difference to him?
4 A. The statement was given and the interpreter or the translator was
5 from Croatia, and you know that there are some words and this happened on
6 Friday too, that they are different from one testimony to the next. In
7 one case, I said "water basin" and they said the basin for bathing. And
8 these are the kinds of mistakes that we encountered. So I think it is a
9 question of translation.
10 Q. Sir, when you came to Susnjari, you were lined up by your
11 leadership into lines and groups were formed in such a way that there were
12 people there who were armed and those who were not armed; is this correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Each group left at a precise time?
15 A. It wasn't a group. It was a column.
16 Q. But groups were formed and these groups were mixed, including
17 armed and unarmed people?
18 A. This happened the next day. People who stayed behind, people who
19 didn't manage to pass through the first Serb lines at Budjim.
20 Q. So this is not correct, that part of your statement?
21 A. Yes, it's not true that groups were formed in Susnjari but people
22 returned to Buljim the next day to try to take people across who were
23 without weapons.
24 Q. So that part of the statement, which was introduced as an exhibit
25 before the Trial Chamber and which you confirmed to the Prosecutor as
1 being correct, now is not correct?
2 A. Sir, do you know what the distance is from Susnjari to Budjim?
3 Q. I'm only asking you about this part because, in your testimony
4 which was admitted as an exhibit before this Trial Chamber, that's what it
5 stated, so I just want to know if you abide by what you said now?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Sir, sir, as a courier, in the Territorial Defence, and as liaison
8 between the municipal defence organ and the front line, were a member of
9 the Srebrenica armed forces; is this correct?
10 A. From 1993, I was in the civilian sector, as a courier. I had
11 nothing to do with the military.
12 Q. I'm asking you about 1995. In July 1995, you, as a courier,
13 maintained links between the Territorial Defence in Srebrenica and the
14 front line and as such, were a member of the Srebrenica armed forces?
15 A. And where were these lines?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honour, I would register an objection with
18 Mr. Krgovic's line of questioning at this point because I think it assumes
19 facts that aren't in evidence. There hasn't been any testimony that he
20 served in that capacity during that period of time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, what are you basing your line of
22 questions upon? I think that there is an affirmation from the witness
23 himself at some point in time that he was indeed a courier, but that's
24 about it. I think we can live with the line of questions.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The way we recollect, and I think it's a good
3 recollection, is that the witness has confirmed that he was a courier,
4 yes, there is no question about that, but he has also confirmed that he
5 was not crossing the -- crossing the lines while he was doing that. So
6 please, then, restrict yourself to what he has confirmed and try to avoid
7 repeating -- avoid repetition basically but otherwise feel free to ask him
8 whatever you like, as related to his role of courier.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my line of questioning
10 is related to his statement and this last sentence in this document in
11 front of us where he says that he was a courier between the civilian
12 authorities and the line of defence. And I am putting it to the witness
13 that according to that, he was a member of the armed forces. I just want
14 him to answer yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was not a member of the armed
16 forces in 1995.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 3239-3242 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Sir, none of these documents, and these excerpts from the
16 documents that I have shown to you, are incorrect. Do you still abide by
18 A. How do you mean that they are not correct? What is correct is
19 that I was not in the liberation forces as of January 1993.
20 Q. Since I asked you about the statement, I'm just summing up, as for
21 each of these statements, parts of the statements that I showed to you,
22 you said that these parts are not correct. Do you abide by that?
23 A. The statements that I provided earlier, yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And this last part, when you testified about these groups, and
25 that's already in the transcript of your testimony?
1 A. I answered that. These were not groups. It was a column.
2 Q. So that part is incorrect as well?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic. Mr. Zivanovic,
6 who is appearing for Colonel Popovic, will now proceed.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
8 Q. Good morning, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Please clarify one thing for me. Normally once somebody is
11 admitted in a hospital, the doctors ask you about your condition, how you
12 feel, what your complaints are and whether you are injured, whether you
13 suffer any pain and similar things. Was that the case with you when you
14 were admitted in this surgery on the 16th of July 1995?
15 A. Yes. That's correct. But that's a normal situation. However,
16 the situation was not normal. There were a lot of wounded people being
17 brought by private cars, private lorries. I had to wait for two hours to
18 be admitted, so you can assume what the situation was.
19 Q. Yes. I can assume that. Did they ask you about your particulars,
20 your name, your last name, the date of birth?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You provided them that, didn't you?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. I suppose that they also asked you whether you were a soldier or
1 A. At Gradina, no, they never asked me that.
2 Q. What do you mean Gradina?
3 A. I'm referring to the clinical center of Gradina with several
4 hospital facilities.
5 Q. Did they ask you if you were a courier?
6 A. No, they never did.
7 Q. So you believe that they put it in just like that?
8 A. That was inserted later at the garrison ambulance.
9 Q. And that's when you were asked about that?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Let me ask you another thing. On the 27th of July, 1995, at the
12 garrison, surgery, you were visited by a person whom you didn't know?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And he introduced himself as somebody from the 2nd Corps of the
15 BiH army, do you remember that?
16 A. No, I don't. If you tell me his name.
17 Q. Could you please look at Exhibit 5D89. Can we go to page 3 of
18 this document, please.
19 Do you recognise this statement?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No broadcast.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please give me the name,
22 who that is from? This is my handwriting.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This is your handwriting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At the very beginning you will see that on the 27th of July, 1995,
2 you were visited by a man who was brought by a nurse and that he
3 introduced himself to you as somebody representing the 2nd Corps that
4 works with journalists. Is that what you stated? Is that what you wrote?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You also stated that he wore a black shirt with the insignia of
7 the BiH army. Can you see that in the next sentence, two lines further
9 A. Yes. I can remember now.
10 Q. You can remember, then. And later on you say that he told you
11 that you should provide a false testimony and say that you were wounded in
13 A. No. This was my Smajo Elezovic and I didn't want to give him a
14 statement and there was a conflict between him and me.
15 Q. And that was the person who had visited you. His name was Smajo
16 Elezovic; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then you stated this. I don't know whether you can see it.
19 It says here he asked me to provide a statement since I -- since he had
20 heard that I was one of the survivors in the group that had been taken to
21 execution, he asked me in the corridor how I survived? And I told him how
22 that happened. Are you reading?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then he asked me to say that I was a member of the group who
25 had been taken for execution in Karakaj?
1 A. Yes, that was Smajo Elezovic. He wanted me to provide that
2 statement but I didn't want to give it to him.
3 Q. But you refused that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So he did ask you to provide a statement that you had been taken
6 for execution in Karakaj?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Please slow down and you slow down and allow a short
8 pause between question and answer because you're going too fast for the
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let me just repeat. I don't know what has been interpreted. In
12 other words, you confirm that this is what he asked you to do but you
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's all I have. No further questions for this witness, Your
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 Who is next? Mr. Meek? Mr. Meek is together with Mr. Ostojic,
19 representing Colonel Beara here.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
21 Q. Good morning, Witness. How are you today?
22 A. Very well, thank you.
23 Q. You may not know this but I have received a supplemental
24 information sheet dated the 26th of October 2006, from the Office of the
25 Prosecutor, from Mr. Vanderpuye, who proofed you. The Prosecutor is to
1 your right. Did you have a chance to have that read to you in your own
2 language? It's the supplemental information sheet you provided us.
3 A. Are you referring to my statement? Or my testimony in the Krstic
5 Q. Yes. Both. In both.
6 A. No. This was not in B/C/S. It was in English, but it was read
7 back to me in B/C/S. And this was my mistake that I made on Friday. That
8 was the confusion on Friday.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are still somewhat in the midst of a
11 MR. MEEK: We are at cross-purposes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly at the moment you mentioned also the
13 testimony, transcript of the Krstic, that did it. So you also need to
14 explain to him what you're talking about. Because he'll probably --
15 doesn't know what the proofing briefs are.
16 MR. MEEK:
17 Q. After you met with Mr. Vanderpuye on the 26th of October, the 25th
18 of October, last week -- I'm not sure whether you met him one day or two
19 days. Can you tell me?
20 A. Two days.
21 Q. After that, Mr. Vanderpuye had generated a two-page document
22 stating all kinds of inconsistencies that you told him about from your
23 prior testimony and your prior statements. So my question to you: Did
24 anybody read that two-page statement back to you about the various
25 inconsistencies in your prior statements and in your prior testimony?
1 A. Can't remember.
2 Q. All right. Well, I want to ask you briefly about your testimony
3 in the Krstic case and that would be 23 May 2000. And first you do recall
4 testifying in that case, correct?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. And on page 3267 of that transcript, you were discussing being
7 placed in a warehouse. Do you recall that testimony generally?
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 3250-3255 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you ought to repeat the question.
6 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Judge. I will.
7 Q. You were captured by the -- some Serb police officers, but yet you
8 failed to utilise the hand grenade which you stated was -- you had with
9 you only for one purpose, and that is to not be captured, correct?
10 A. Yes. Correct. I didn't have the time to do it.
11 Q. All right. And you'll agree with me that before you left on your
12 march through the woods, to the free territory, medicine was limited,
13 supplies of medicine was very limited in Srebrenica; correct?
14 A. There was practically none. There was no supply whatsoever.
15 Q. And yet, can you explain to this Tribunal, this Trial Chamber, why
16 it is that you had medicine on you along with that grenade?
17 A. Yes. Because I worked for the DutchBat and I got a few dressings
18 from a soldier and some other things.
19 Q. Well, you had more than just bandaids in your bag, didn't you?
20 Didn't you have medicine for pain or to stop the bleeding?
21 A. Those were just ampules for injections.
22 Q. Okay. So you had injectable medicine with you in your bag. Did
23 you have the syringes to inject it also, in case you needed to?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you received these from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did
1 you not, or members thereof?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. Now, in your prior statements, and in your prior testimony, you
4 indicated a reference to when you were captured and you were on the road.
5 Do you recall that testimony?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And as you were speaking with --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Meek. I
9 think it's the case of distinguishing between the grenade, the hand
10 grenade, and the medical items. Because you asked a very direct question
11 which you are entitled to, whether he got the medicine from the army of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And he gave a straightforward answer, no, which
13 could be interpreted as meaning that that applies also to the hand
14 grenade. So perhaps you can distinguish between one and the other and put
15 two questions instead of one.
16 MR. MEEK: Yes, thank you, Judge. And I think he has answered the
17 question about the medicine.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think we need to have it clear in the
19 transcript. But I know what he said but we need to clarify that Mr. Meek.
20 MR. MEEK:
21 Q. Witness, you just answered a question that you did not receive the
22 medicine, the injectable medicine or the syringes from the army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina or any member thereof. Is that correct? You did not?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Now, as far as the grenade goes, though, the grenade they took
1 from you when you were captured, you did receive that from the army of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina or a member thereof; am I correct in saying that?
3 A. I got this from an acquaintance as we were moving from Srebrenica
4 to Susnjari.
5 Q. And that acquaintance was a member of the ABiH army, was he not?
6 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that.
7 Q. And can you give me the name of this individual?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Please do. Do you need to go into private session for this?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless I hear a specific request, I see no need to
11 go into private session. But if the witness feels uncomfortable with
12 mentioning the name of this acquaintance in open session, then we can
14 Do you prefer to give us the name in public or would you like to
15 go in private session to give us this name?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person is dead. He was buried
17 in Potocari. His name was Halid Smajlovic.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That solves it.
19 MR. MEEK:
20 Q. Is it your testimony under oath today that you have no clue as to
21 whether your friend Halid Smajlovic was a member of the ABiH?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Now, you've indicated in your written statement that there were 12
24 to 15.000 people moving towards Tuzla through the woods, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And approximately a third of those were armed. That was in your
2 statement, correct?
3 A. In one part, yes. However, the exact information --
4 Q. Those are your estimates. So according to your estimates, 4.000
5 to 5.000 armed soldiers were in the column towards Tuzla. Do you agree?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You would still agree the column was 12.000 to 15.000 and about a
8 third of them were armed, from what you could see, correct?
9 A. I was talking about Buljim when I mentioned one-third, and as for
10 the entire column and how many people went through the lines, you have to
11 ask somebody else that.
12 Q. Well, I'm asking you, sir, because you're here and I'm going to
13 ask you another question. In your statement, you indicated when the
14 column started out, that there were armed men, able-bodied men with arms
15 that were spread out between and amongst the people who were not armed,
17 A. It was people returning to bring across people without weapons,
18 who did not manage to cross the first Serb lines at Buljim in the early
20 Q. Now, did all of the people that you observed in that column who
21 had arms, hunting rifles, pistols, grenades, whatever, were they all in
22 camouflage uniforms or were some of them just dressed like civilians, like
24 A. No. Many of them were in civilian clothes.
25 Q. So it would be a fair statement that many soldiers in the ABiH
1 army in that column were dressed as civilians even though they were
2 soldiers and they were armed?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would just like to register my objection to
4 this question. I don't believe it's factually predicated on any evidence
5 that's been given thus far.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's not really the problem. It's the
7 formulation of the question that assumes that the witness agrees
8 beforehand that anybody who was armed was necessarily a soldier,
9 irrespective of what he was wearing. And I think you have to reformulate
10 your question.
11 MR. MEEK:
12 Q. Witness, let me just ask this, because you've already stated that
13 many of the armed individuals in the column were in civilian clothes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you know from sight such as the other individual we were
17 talking about earlier, in this case, today, did you know any of the
18 individuals that you saw that were armed in civilian clothes that you knew
19 were a member of the ABiH army?
20 A. I don't know that. I don't know what you mean, armed. I mean
21 even I could possibly have been armed with the hand grenade but that was
22 something else.
23 Q. Well --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me intervene a little bit. You've referred to
25 several persons, many of whom you said -- many of whom wore civilian
1 clothes. Carrying the question from Mr. Meek, was any kind of weapon,
2 even hunting rifles and pistols, et cetera. Who were those persons,
3 according to you? Were they soldiers of the ABiH?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all men, adults, also
5 children of 14, 15, 16, maybe a bit older. It was difficult to make that
6 kind of estimate. All those who didn't feel safe to go to Potocari went
7 to cross the woods.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what was interpreted to you but I'm
9 referring only to those persons who were carrying weapons. And Mr. Meek's
10 terms, guns, rifles, shot guns, even hunting rifles, he also mentioned
11 grenades, pistols. Who were those persons, the ones who were carrying
12 these weapons? Were they the soldiers of the ABiH, even though they were
13 wearing civilian clothes?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you that answer. I
15 don't know.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know. All right. Okay. Then you may
18 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour, very much. I have no further
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek. Who is next? Madam Nikolic is
21 appearing for Mr. Nikolic in this case and she will be cross-examining you
22 next. We'll have a break at 12.30.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
25 Q. Good day, sir.
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. I would have a few questions to put to you in relation to what you
3 talked about with my learned friend, Mr. Zivanovic. It's about the
4 statement you gave at the hospital on the 27th of July 1995 to the man who
5 paid you a visit at that time. Today, on page 50, line 20, when you were
6 answering my colleague's questions, you said that you had a conflict with
7 Mr. Elezovic. You stood up to him.
8 A. Yes. But I don't know what sort of a conflict you mean.
9 Q. Because you did not want to provide a statement about the
10 executions in Karakaj in the way that he wanted you to do; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You refused to give such a statement because you wanted to speak
14 the truth about this event; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. The Tuzla higher court on the 2nd of August, when you provided
17 your statement there in 1995, you didn't have any conflicts with anyone
18 because your statement contained what you said and it contained the truth?
19 A. Yes, but it also did have a few failings. It wasn't perfect.
20 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Madam Nikolic. Mr. Stojanovic
22 is appearing for accused Borovcanin. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. Sir, good morning, or good day.
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. I would just like to move into private session, Your Honours, for
3 the first couple of questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Stojanovic. Let's move into --
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Was your village made up of inhabitants of one ethnic group or was
21 it multi-ethnic?
22 A. It was inhabited by ethnic Muslims but it belonged to the Bljeceva
23 local community which also had Serb citizens.
24 Q. And these two villages, part of the Bljeceva local commune, were
25 they also called Bljeceva?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you please tell us the names of those two other villages?
3 A. One was called Vokova Glava, the other one was called Zagoni.
4 Q. On the 5th and 6th of May 1992, was there any fighting in these
5 two villages?
6 A. I think that there was but I was in Srebrenica.
7 Q. Is it correct that those two villages were burned and that the
8 people from those two villages were expelled?
9 A. Yes. That is correct. But those two villages were burned after
10 the Muslim villages of Rance, Glogova were burned by Serbs.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get all the village
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Could you please repeat the villages that you just named that were
15 previously burned?
16 A. Glogova, Rance, Mihajlovici, I also forgot to say that it was also
17 a part of Burnica but that belongs to the village of Rance.
18 Q. Are you trying to tell us here today that these two Serb villages
19 were burned in retaliation?
20 A. I cannot answer that question.
21 Q. Are you going to then agree with me that the clashes in Glogova
22 took place on the 9th of May 1992, whereas these events took place on the
23 5th and 6th of May 1992?
24 A. I think that Zagoni and Bukova Glava were not burned. They
25 were -- or this happened after Glogova, once people arrived, people who
1 had fled Glogova arrived to Bljeceva.
2 Q. And was the Serb population from those villages expelled?
3 A. I don't know. They were either expelled or they fled.
4 Q. In any case, they didn't stay in these villages?
5 A. No, they did not.
6 Q. When did you leave Bratunac and go to Srebrenica?
7 A. In early April.
8 Q. Can we say that this was in 1992?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. And what was the reason why you left Bratunac in April 1992 and
11 went to Srebrenica?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he testified at length on that already, Mr.
13 Stojanovic. A series of questions. I can recall -- recollect at least
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I
16 thought for a specific reason I just wanted to finish with this.
17 Q. If you can tell us exactly when it was in April 1992 that you went
18 to Srebrenica?
19 A. I don't know the exact date. I know that the last time I was
20 there was when the bus service was already suspended and no bus was going
21 to Srebrenica but I don't know the exact date.
22 Q. You already said that but this is precisely why I'm asking you.
23 Was this in the first half of April or the second half of April?
24 A. It was in the first half of April.
25 Q. Today, you said that you worked in the defence ministry sector in
1 Srebrenica as a courier?
2 A. No, it wasn't a ministry, but it was a defence -- the defence
3 department or sector.
4 Q. Do you know Suljo Hasanovic?
5 A. Slightly.
6 Q. And what was he doing then in Srebrenica?
7 A. He was the secretary of the Secretariat or the department of
9 Q. The defence department in Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were you an employee in his Secretariat?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What are a courier's duties, duties of a courier, in the defence
14 Secretariat in Srebrenica?
15 A. Deliver summonses to someone, do what they wanted, nothing was
16 functioning, there were five of us, civilian protection. We distributed
17 wood, firewood, for people who needed that kind of assistance.
18 Q. And did the Defence Secretariat mobilise conscripts in the
19 municipality where it was formed?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And were the mobilisation summonses sent to the conscripts?
22 A. No. It was done in a different way. I wasn't in that sector. I
23 was in the civilian sector so I was doing civilian protection more, but
24 actually it was all part of the same section.
25 Q. Did you take summonses to members of the civilian protection?
1 A. No. We were in contact with them at all times because their
2 office was right next door to ours.
3 Q. There were assignments when people were mobilised for the needs of
4 the civilian protection; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Did you summon and inform those people?
7 A. No. Only if I got a summons to take to somebody, then yes.
8 Q. Well, that's precisely what I wanted to ask you. You were taking
9 those summonses. You were delivering them?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like
12 to put a couple of questions to the witness in private session, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Stojanovic. Let's go into private
14 session again, please.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 3268-3273 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session again.
14 Mr. Stojanovic, we need to break now and you will proceed with
15 your questions, with your cross-examination, after the break, which will
16 be of 30 minutes duration because of the redactions that we have to make.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, I suppose you -- we need to revert
21 back to private session, I suppose.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have one
23 more question and then I would finish the part in the private session.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go back to private session, please.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 3275-3276 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Please try to conclude so
5 that we see if we can send this witness home today.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, can you please tell us when you survived these events on the
8 13th of July 1995, what time was it?
9 A. It was sometime around noon.
10 Q. After that, you floated for 300 metres in the water and came out
11 on the other bank of the Jadar River?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you stayed there on the 13th in the afternoon and on the night
14 of the 13th?
15 A. Not in the same place. I went further up through a burned village
16 and I lost consciousness and at some point in the evening, I came back to
17 another village close to the Jadar River.
18 Q. Where were you on the 14th of July in the morning hours when you
19 met with this group of ten men who were coming from Srebrenica?
20 A. I met them close to the Mali Udric exit. It was a macadam road.
21 Q. For those of us who are not from that area, would the correct
22 answer be, when I said that you had returned to Konjevic Polje and were
23 going in the direction of Mali Udric?
24 A. No, lower than Konjevic Polje, the village of Sladna, in the
25 direction of the village of Rasavo. It's a highway leading to the village
1 of Rasavo.
2 Q. So you were moving in the direction of the village of Rasavo and
3 you were going from Rasavo towards Udric?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when did you catch up with the column and did you catch up
6 with it at all?
7 A. When we reached Udric, actually the column caught up with us. We
8 met the column close to the Drinjaca river after we came down from Udric.
9 Q. Are you trying to say that already on the 14th you joined the
10 column and left together with it towards Nezuk?
11 A. The column caught up with us.
12 Q. Was that column in any fighting on the night of the 13th?
13 A. The column that I was in did not, but I think perhaps before that,
14 towards Lipljan as they were coming out to Snagovo. So not the column
15 that I was in, no, but others that passed before.
16 Q. And did you cross the road together with the column, the
17 Karakaj-Crni Vir-Kalesija road?
18 A. Yes. In the morning I happened to be on the road when a car came
19 up and there was a man who wanted to help me, and he was wounded in the
20 vehicle and the vehicle overturned, and burst into flames.
21 Q. Was this an ambulance?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. What day was this on?
24 A. It was on the 14th in the morning, after we came down from
25 Snagovo, we had to take that asphalt road for 150 to 300 metres before
1 turning to Crni Vir.
2 Q. Thank you. We will have an opportunity to check all of that. Now
3 if we can look at e-court document 5D85? Your Honours, this is the
4 medical documentation that we already used and I would like to finish up
5 with that. Can we please look at the last page of the English version
6 with that?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided it's not broadcast.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
9 Q. While the document is being brought up, I'm going to put another
10 question to you. On the 13th of July, around noon, the execution took
11 place in the Jadar valley river, is this correct?
12 A. Yes, it was on the 13th.
13 Q. Thank you. But I think the English document is not the correct
14 document, but in the B/C/S it is the correct document. And when we -- I
15 want to use the time while we are waiting to get the document in English.
16 Sir, do you see this document in front of you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does it not say that you arrived there on the 16th of July and
19 reported to the medical centre then?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And does it not say that you were recorded as a soldier there?
22 You spoke about that already.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then it says, "Wounded four days ago while trying to break out
2 of Srebrenica." Do you see that? Do you see where it says that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If you can look at the handwritten document. The handwritten
5 document, it's the first line in the middle. "Wounded four days ago while
6 attempting to break out of Srebrenica." Do you see it now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If this is correct, the 16th of July 1995, when you work back four
9 days from that, it would then be that you were actually wounded on the
10 12th of July 1995. So where would be the problem here?
11 A. I was wounded on the 13th, and on the 15th there was that car from
12 Crni Vir to Zvornik. Then we were going for one day and one night, Crni
13 Vir, Nezuk, and I know that we were at the Gradina clinical centre at
14 1.00, after midnight.
15 Q. I'm going to be very simple. Does it not say here that you
16 reported on the 16th of July 1995? You checked in. Can you see that?
17 A. Yes, I see it.
18 Q. Does it not say that you were wounded four days before that?
19 A. But, sir, I didn't write this. If you come to such a medical
20 centre with so many wounded, it's true that for you a date would be
21 important for you, but really I cannot say anything about this.
22 Q. Thank you. I understand that. All I want you to do is to tell us
23 whether you think that perhaps this is correct and that you altered the
24 dates in your recollection and that perhaps you were wounded on the 12th,
25 you were shot on the 12th of July 1995?
1 A. No. I was shot on the 13th of July. We left on the 11th. On the
2 12th in the morning I crossed Udric actually, no, Buljim. On the 13th, in
3 the morning, I was captured.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's come to the next question, Mr. Stojanovic,
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I won't
7 have any more questions, and my colleagues may benefit from the moment
8 when you have both documents before you and point to the omissions in
9 translation. Because in the B/C/S, it says, "Wounded four days ago in
10 breaking out of Srebrenica." And in the English version, if I understand
11 it well, it says, "Wounded four days ago, trying to escape Srebrenica."
12 And I believe that this could be a significant difference.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, I understand counsel's argument. It's not
15 the time nor place to argue translation issues and we can sort that out
16 but in front of the witness is not the place.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, I agree, and who is next? Madam Fauveau is
18 appearing for General Miletic and she will be cross-examining you now.
19 She will be cross-examining you. Yes, Madam Fauveau?
20 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
21 Q. Sir, you arrived in Srebrenica in 1992. Can we say that the
22 winter 1992-1993 was particularly harsh and difficult in Srebrenica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And indeed, for you it was the most difficult time in this period
25 when you lived in Srebrenica from 1992 until the fall of the enclave,
1 wasn't it?
2 A. It was.
3 Q. And the situation was better when the UNPROFOR arrived?
4 A. Not much.
5 Q. May not have been much but it got better, it improved, didn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it was partly due to the arrival of humanitarian convoys; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And as of the 1st of May 1995, you started working for the
11 DutchBat. For you, as it were, it was the best time between the 1st of
12 May and the fall of the enclave, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Prior to the war, you used to live in Bratunac but you went to
15 work in Srebrenica; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in Bratunac and in Srebrenica, you had good relationships with
18 the Serbs, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So there were Muslims and Serbs both in Bratunac and in
21 Srebrenica. You would live together, mixed, as it were?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you left Bratunac and when you arrived in Srebrenica, is it
24 fair to say that you did not find any Serb population in Srebrenica?
25 A. A few people, but my answer could be no.
1 Q. However, most of the Serbs from Srebrenica had left when you
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Earlier you testified about Susnjari and about the number of
5 people to be found in Susnjari. You said that since you mentioned that
6 one-third of the men were armed among the able-bodied people, you did not
7 mention Susnjari but about Buljim when you testified in the Krstic case;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'd like to read out this part of your testimony, your testimony
11 in the Krstic case.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President.
13 Q. You said page 3240, "[In English] I went with all the other men
14 towards the village of Slatina and Susnjari upwards." And then the
15 Prosecutor asked you this: "About how many other men were gathered in the
16 area of Susnjari when you got there?" And you responded, "Well, there
17 were about 12 and 15. I can't give you an exact figure but there were a
18 lot of us." And then the question was, "Do you know roughly how many of
19 those men might have been armed in some way?" And your response was, "As
20 far as I was able to note, about a third, I would say, with hunting
21 rifles, with not very strong weaponry, hunting rifles and other types but
22 a third of them, I would say, not more."
23 [Interpretation] Do you agree that in the Krstic case you did
24 mention or you did speak about Susnjari and you were mentioning 12 to
25 15.000 people and a third of them were armed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was your testimony accurate?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was it also fair to say that when you arrived in Susnjari,
5 somebody told you to line up so that civilians and military would be all
6 mixed together?
7 A. All the men who arrived there were there. I don't know what you
8 mean when you say the military. All the men, irrespective of age, they
9 were all there.
10 Q. You testified that you had to go to Susnjari. Did you receive
11 information telling you to go to Susnjari?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So how, in that case, did you know that you had to go to Susnjari?
14 A. The last village that was in the free territory was Susnjari.
15 Above that village is Buljim and further on Konjevic Polje.
16 Q. Sir, I'd like to know why you left your family behind in
17 Srebrenica. Why did you go leaving your family behind?
18 A. Because I had to.
19 Q. Precisely. This is what I'm trying to ascertain. Did somebody
20 force you to go? Did somebody tell you to go to Susnjari?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So what was the reason for leaving your family behind?
23 A. To save my life.
24 Q. But you had a wife and two small children. Were you not fearing
25 for them?
1 A. I had the impression that it would be easier for them to get out
2 of there. My father went to Potocari. He was 67 years of age at the
3 time, and where is he now? At Pilica.
4 Q. You say that you were not particularly afraid for the women, the
5 children and the elderly people?
6 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "afraid."
7 Q. When you left, leaving your wife and your children behind, I
8 imagine that you at least thought that they were safe, that nothing
9 harmful would happen to them.
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No
12 further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.
14 Mr. Sarapa? Or Mr. Haynes? I don't know. Yes.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
16 Q. Good afternoon.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa, is, together with Mr. Haynes, defending
19 General Pandurevic.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you please tell me this? Let me remind you, in your
22 statement dated 2nd August 1995, which you provided to the higher court in
23 Tuzla, you spoke about the situation in Srebrenica and you said the
24 following: "Throughout all this time, the Chetniks were shelling the town
25 and the surrounding villages from tanks and other artillery pieces." Do
1 you adhere by that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You returned to Srebrenica before leaving with others. Could you
4 please tell us whether you saw any dead or wounded people in Srebrenica?
5 A. From Potocari?
6 Q. In town.
7 A. No.
8 Q. You didn't. Thank you. Since you were a courier, you delivered
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the age of the persons who received call-up papers for
12 mobilisation, for example?
13 A. You mean --
14 Q. What was the age of these people who received those call-up
15 papers? How old was the youngest one, how old was the oldest one?
16 A. I did work as a courier but I worked for the civilian protection.
17 Q. Could you please tell me whether you know how old were the
18 youngest soldiers in the BiH army?
19 A. No, I wouldn't know that.
20 Q. Do you know how old were the youngest armed males of the one-third
21 that were armed, that you mentioned?
22 A. No, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
23 Q. Do you know who Hajrudin Abdic is?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
1 Exhibit 7D56? It was mentioned earlier this morning. Can this document
2 be placed on the ELMO? Because I don't think we will be able to get it on
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Technicians, please don't broadcast it before we
5 have had a chance to look at it, to make sure that it can be shown. Do we
6 have an English translation of it?
7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No, there is no English translation.
8 We will send it for translation. We received it only recently.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Can we zoom out a little bit or have it put
10 in the centre. Okay, enough, enough, enough, enough, enough. And -- and
11 can we see the top of the document, please? All right. I think it's a
12 safe document to go by. Yes, your questions, Mr. Sarapa?
13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
14 Q. It says here that the person whom you know, Hajrudin Abdic, signed
15 this document as president of the War Presidency. The document is a
16 declaration of general mobilisation in Srebrenica municipality, and it is
17 ordered that general mobilisation should be carried out immediately and
18 that all able-bodied men between aged between 16 and 60 should join units
19 of TO, public security stations, units of civilian protection and work
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see the date of this document at the bottom
23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] There is no date on the document.
24 The date in the upper right-hand corner is the date when the document was
25 received by the commission for the investigation of developments in
1 Srebrenica and it was delivered by the investigation commission so this is
2 not the date of the document, but the date of its receipt by the
3 commission. The document itself does not bear any date.
4 Q. I would like to ask you, the witness, this: Did you see and would
5 you agree with me that there were armed individuals, aged 16?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What was the age of the youngest person that you saw carrying
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Can we see one minute of the video clip V000/1357/1/A? The date
11 is -- the minute that I want to see is between 27 and 28.
12 [Videotape played]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If the sound is not necessary, we don't want to hear
15 MR. SARAPA: It's not necessary.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, you went to Srebrenica even before the war and you know
19 it well. Do you remember the overall situation how it looked like before
20 the war?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can we agree that the church that was depicted in the video clip
23 is the same church damaged in the way shown in the video?
24 A. From before the war?
25 Q. Yes. That it is the same church that existed before the war but
1 it was damaged and now it was damaged?
2 A. Can I see the clip again?
3 Q. Can we have the clip back to the beginning, to the 27th minute of
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you see it again?
8 A. Yes. But I can't provide you any answer because the picture was
9 not photographed from the outside and I don't have anything to go by to
10 say that it was the church that I knew.
11 Q. But you know Srebrenica. Do you know that the church in
12 Srebrenica was damaged?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know that the cemetery was desecrated?
15 A. I saw it.
16 Q. You saw the desecrated graves and tombstones?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Since you resided in Srebrenica and you visited Srebrenica before
19 the war, when my colleague Fauveau asked you whether there were any Serbs
20 in Srebrenica left, you said that there were a few people left. Do you
21 remember a man called Milka?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In your statement to the state commission dated 13 August, 1995,
24 you stated that you were in Srebrenica, which is not in dispute. However,
25 once you were wounded, in your -- in that same statement, you describe the
1 way you crossed to the Muslim territory and you say that you crossed
2 through Baljkovici is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know anything about the agreement that had been reached
5 between the Serbs and the Muslims about the crossing through Baljkovici
6 towards Tuzla?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You never heard anything about that?
9 A. No. I was wounded and we were all crossing the hill, all of us
10 wounded, to go further on.
11 Q. While you were crossing, did you have any problems?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you were crossing Baljkovici, did you have any problems?
14 A. The fighting was over. We broke through the lines and we moved
15 towards Nezuk.
16 Q. Did anybody shoot from the Serbian side when you were crossing
18 A. There was fighting all night long, sir.
19 Q. I'm asking you, specifically, when you were crossing in -- on the
20 16th at noon?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So it was on the 16th, actually around 4.00 in the morning when
23 you crossed. At the moment when you were crossing, you personally, when
24 you were crossing Baljkovici, was any fire opened at you?
25 A. Yes. In the morning hours.
1 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about the morning hours. I'm asking you
2 about the time in the afternoon when you were crossing Baljkovici?
3 A. I answered you, when I was passing together with other wounded,
4 the Serb lines had already been broken through and we could move forward.
5 Q. I apologise. Could you please bear with me for just a moment.
6 Could you please specify where the fire came from when you were passing
7 through Baljkovici, very concretely you, at the time when you were
8 crossing Baljkovici, you personally?
9 A. It came from the direction where there was the Serb soldiers'
10 kitchen and the road, and I don't know where else from.
11 Q. Could you specify what kind of fire it was?
12 A. It was fire from all kinds of weaponry. There was shelling.
13 Q. Were there any wounded? Were there any dead amongst you?
14 A. I wouldn't know.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to stop here, Mr. Sarapa, because our time
16 is up. We'll continue -- yes, Mr. Sarapa?
17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that I had a
18 few more questions which are not so important as to keep the witness here
19 tomorrow. I heard the most important things so I will withdraw from
20 asking any more questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Much appreciated, Mr. Sarapa and Mr. Haynes. Is
22 there re-examination?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I only have maybe one question or two.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you proceed with it very quickly, please?
12 Now, sir, we've come to the end of your testimony, thanks to the
13 practical approach of the Defence team for General Pandurevic. Basically
14 that means that you're free to go back home. You will receive all the
15 assistance you require from our staff to facilitate that. On behalf of
16 the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and also I
17 wish you a safe journey back home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for your guidance, Mr. McCloskey, the motion
20 for protective measures for Witnesses 50 and 54, who will be coming over
21 this week to testify, is granted as requested, we'll hand down the -- I
22 have the written decision here but I just want to make sure that we have
23 all gone through it again to make sure that it doesn't have any mistakes.
24 So -- but the idea we have conveyed to you. And we'll reconvene again
25 tomorrow morning at 9.00 with a new witness. In the meantime, if you can
1 feed us back on the other protective measures motion, we would appreciate
2 that. Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of
6 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.