Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3470

 1                          Thursday, 2 November 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7    case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  All the accused are here.  If there are

11    problems with interpretation, please as usual let us know.  All the

12    Defence teams are present, minus Mr. Bourgon, as previously explained.

13            Prosecution, Mr. Nicholls and Mr. McCloskey.

14            The witness is present in court as I speak.  Are there any

15    preliminaries?  I suppose none.  Remind me when this witness finishes, I

16    need to communicate something to you in relation to your motion on

17    protective measures.

18            So where were we?  I understand -- I understand, I've been told

19    that Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Sarapa would like to cross-examine the witness as

20    well.  Is that -- is my information correct?

21            MR. SARAPA:  Yes, Your Honour.

22            MR. KRGOVIC:  Very few questions.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So Mr. Lazarevic, we had cut you short

24    yesterday before you had finished your cross-examination.

25            Good morning to you, sir.  Witness, I'm speaking to you.  Good

Page 3471

 1    morning to you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I hope you had a good rest.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pretty good.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  And as I told you you'll be sitting on that chair

 6    for about another hour after which you'll be free to go.  Mr. Lazarevic,

 7    who was cross-examining you yesterday, and he is lead counsel appearing

 8    for Accused Borovcanin, will continue his cross-examination.  He will then

 9    be followed by three other Defence teams and that -- your

10    cross-examination or your testimony will be over.

11                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-118 [Resumed]

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Lazarevic, good morning to you.

14            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you and good morning to you, Your Honours.

15                          Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

16       Q.   Good morning, sir.  I think I will have just two or three

17    questions for you and my cross-examination will be finished.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Could you kindly [Microphone not activated].

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I can actually read it.  Okay.  Go ahead,

21    Mr. Lazarevic.

22            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, my questions now have to do with your

24    arrival at Tisca, when you got there, and when the Serb soldiers turned

25    you back.  After being taken to the school at Luke, how many people were

Page 3472

 1    brought there after you, in front -- to the meadow in front of the house?

 2       A.   There were 22 people.

 3       Q.   And the people were brought in throughout the entire day you were

 4    in Tisca, sometime in the morning and people were arriving throughout the

 5    day, is that how it was?

 6       A.   I assume that I was there at about 10.00, so after 10.00, right up

 7    until it got dark, people were continuously being brought to the school.

 8       Q.   Were these people who were in the buses, who had come to Tisca in

 9    the buses and then were turned back from there and brought to Luke?

10       A.   Yes, that's it.  Exactly.  Except for a couple of people who had

11    told the Serbian soldiers that they had set off into the woods and that's

12    where they were captured and then brought to the school.

13       Q.   Those other 20 who you mentioned were brought to Tisca in buss and

14    then after that were brought to Luke, is this correct?

15       A.   Yes.  The number of people is 22.  That is correct.

16       Q.   So 20 people entered the school in Potocari and came to Tisca?

17       A.   Yes, that is correct.

18       Q.   Thank you very much.

19            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

21            Have you made up your minds who is going first?  Mr. Krgovic, who

22    is appearing for General Gvero, will now cross-examine you.

23                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

24       Q.   Good morning, sir.

25       A.   Good morning.

Page 3473

 1       Q.   I would like to put some questions to you related to the answers

 2    you gave to my learned friend Mr. Lazarevic during his cross-examination.

 3    He asked you about - and you answered him - about your brief stay when you

 4    were in Tuzla, when you were a member of the 26th Brigade.  Do you

 5    remember the 28th Brigade?  286th Brigade, I apologise.

 6       A.   That is 286th Brigade that was formed in the settlement of

 7    Stupari.

 8       Q.   You said then that you joined the brigade in order to receive

 9    humanitarian aid and so that you can receive something to help you support

10    yourself and your family.  Do you recall saying that?

11       A.   Yes, that is what I said and I thought that was the way for me to

12    implement my other rights by joining the brigade.

13       Q.   So this functioned in the way that members of the brigades would

14    receive humanitarian aid and had priority in receiving humanitarian aid

15    and other -- and implementing other rights?

16       A.   No.  You are mixing it up.  It's not humanitarian aid.  It's

17    compensation for members of the brigade that was received over there.  It

18    was a small amount in money, there were also donors of the brigade who

19    would donate certain articles, like food and things which the brigade then

20    distributed to its members.

21       Q.   So you received a kind of payment in food?

22       A.   The salary or the payment actually boiled down to both of those

23    things.

24       Q.   And this is how it functioned at that time, in 1995, the -- those

25    who were members, who were in the army, would receive their payment in

Page 3474

 1    food?

 2       A.   I'm afraid that you're misunderstanding me.  This would happen

 3    occasionally, when we are talking about food, when there were donors and

 4    if they would donate something.  But there was a monetary compensation

 5    involved also.

 6       Q.   But generally, that is how it functioned?  This is what my

 7    question is about.

 8       A.   It functioned like anything else.  There was compensation.  Just

 9    like any other compensation you would receive it after a month of work.

10    It wasn't different from that.

11       Q.   The other thing that I wanted to ask you is that responding to Mr.

12    Meek's questions yesterday, when you were talking about your stay in

13    Potocari, you mentioned the people who treated you properly when

14    addressed you and asked for your ID card.  You said one of them spoke with

15    a Montenegrin accent.  You remember saying that?

16       A.   I said that and this is my opinion.  It can be correct and it

17    doesn't have to be correct.  The person who spoke to me seemed to me to

18    speak with a Montenegrin accent.  However, if this is true or not, I'm

19    not sure.  All I'm saying is that that was his accent when he was speaking

20    to me.  I don't know if the other people had accents like that.  I heard

21    only one of them.

22       Q.   Would you agree with me that the people who come from Herzegovina,

23    their accent and the accent of people who come from Montenegro is similar?

24       A.   Well, I really don't know.  I didn't really meet so many people

25    from Herzegovina.  I met more people from Montenegro.

Page 3475

 1       Q.   Can you please tell us what date that was, was that on the 11th do

 2    you recall, or was it on the 12th?

 3       A.   It was the 12th.

 4       Q.   The 12th.  You were in Potocari on the 11th of July?

 5       A.   On the 11th in the afternoon, I got there, spent the flight

 6    there, was there on the 12th, and then early in the morning on the 13th,

 7    we left.

 8       Q.   That day, on the 11th of July, when you were in Potocari, that

 9    area where you were, was it shelled?

10       A.   Not the area, but the immediate vicinity was hit by shells.  I

11    recall one shell fell so close that women and children started screaming

12    and threw themselves on the concrete floor.  You could feel that

13    detonation quite close.

14       Q.   So you were outside of the base, you were in the vicinity of the

15    UN base?

16       A.   The UN base was a little bit closer to Bratunac and to the battery

17    factory so it was outside of the UN base.

18       Q.   So the shelling that you heard was not in the direction of the

19    base but to the outside?

20       A.   I really couldn't tell you.  It was about half a kilometre off,

21    away from the base, but in any case, you could hear the sound and the

22    feel -- feel the shaking of the detonation in that afternoon.

23       Q.   So it wasn't in the base itself?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   So the base wasn't shelled on that day, if you can recall?

Page 3476

 1       A.   The base is something else.  It's in the direction of Bratunac and

 2    it's away from the place where I happened to be, so I was not at the base.

 3       Q.   All I'm asking you is if you know whether the base was shelled or

 4    not?

 5       A.   No, no.  I don't know that.

 6            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 7    questions.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 9            Madam Fauveau, who is appearing for General Miletic, will now

10    cross-examine you.

11                          Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday you mentioned the bombing of

13    Srebrenica.  You said this happened at the end of 1992, at the beginning

14    of 1993.  Just before that, yesterday, on page 46, line 11 to 19 you

15    described the humanitarian situation in Srebrenica.  I would like to know

16    whether the situation which you described, whether this also refers to

17    1993, 1994?

18       A.   [No interpretation]

19       Q.   I'm sorry, I think there was a mistake into B/C/S.  I talked about

20    1992 and 1993 to begin with.

21       A.   You mentioned only the end of 1992.  Throughout the war in

22    Srebrenica, there was shelling of Srebrenica.  With respect to your other

23    question, the humanitarian situation in this period, then and after the

24    convoys began to arrive, the situation was different because the convoys

25    began to arrive.  I have to say, however, that the convoys were frequently

Page 3477

 1    stopped and looted in Bratunac and that only those parts of convoys were

 2    allowed to pass through that the Serbs wanted to let go.  That is, soap,

 3    beans, blankets, but important staples such as salt, sugar, oil, sometimes

 4    flour, tins of food were frequently confiscated in Bratunac.  Flour did

 5    sometimes did arrive but in very small amounts.  If I have to say whether

 6    there was a difference, yes, there was, but the situation had not been

 7    solved because the number of people there increased tremendously in that

 8    period, and the hunger and suffering of the population were extremely

 9    evident everywhere.

10       Q.   When you say that there was a difference, are you saying that the

11    situation improved after the arrival of the UN?

12       A.   The difference was there for as long as the convoys kept arriving

13    but I said also that the convoys were stopped and looted so there wasn't

14    really that much of a difference.  It was still a catastrophe.  Of course,

15    you could see a difference when the convoys arrived regularly as planned

16    and then when flour was distributed to the people.  If there were no

17    convoys then if they were stopped, then you just had the catastrophic

18    situation that you had before.

19       Q.   Yesterday, you said that there were a lot of rumours going around

20    Srebrenica.  Did you hear anything about the abuse of humanitarian aid and

21    smuggling?

22       A.   I cannot really say anything about that.  There were rumours, but

23    what -- what really -- I cannot say anything to respond to your question.

24       Q.   Can we show the witness Exhibit number 5D31, please?  This is a

25    summary or rather a report or rather a summary provided by the Ministry of

Page 3478

 1    Affairs of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Srebrenica; at the time

 2    it was a protected area.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Ministry of the Interior.

 4            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

 5       Q.   In B/C/S -- this will be on page 8 of the English version.  This

 6    is a paragraph which begins with, "Besides."  This is a paragraph you can

 7    see on your screen.  In English this starts on page 8, paragraph 3.  Sir,

 8    in this paragraph, you can read as follows:  "[In English] Besides this,

 9    in conversation with expelled person from Srebrenica.  We registered

10    numerous criminal activities committed by members of the 28th Division and

11    some leaders of Srebrenica municipal authorities which in any case

12    influenced the stabilisation of the situation and complication of security

13    in this enclave.  Persons who were close to these categories were involved

14    in the criminal activities and they were one of the links in the chain of

15    smuggling of humanitarian aid, remonstrating, smuggling of fuel et

16    cetera."  [Interpretation] Sir, had you heard anything about this?

17       A.   This for me is a ridiculous question.  Madam, you must put

18    questions to me that have to do with me personally and my statement.  I'm

19    not the person who could respond to a question like this.  I wasn't

20    involved in this sort of work and --

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop.  There are ways and ways of

22    addressing a person.  And when you are addressing Defence counsel, who is

23    only doing her duty here, there is only one way, and that's not the way

24    that you have addressed her.  So I want you apologise to her first and

25    foremost.  And then if you are not in a position to answer her question,

Page 3479

 1    you just answer by saying so.  But you have no right to tell Madam Fauveau

 2    or anyone else for that matter in this courtroom that that is a ridiculous

 3    question, that that question shouldn't be asked or the way you addressed

 4    Madam Fauveau.  So please, let's start with a proper apology.  And then

 5    you answer the question.  I am here to protect you.  I am here to protect

 6    also Defence counsel, Prosecutor and every single person that is working

 7    under difficult conditions in this Tribunal.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I did not

 9    made any -- make any mistake.  I said right away that I didn't know the

10    answer to this question, but if you believe that I need to offer an

11    apology, then I am doing so.  I think that I answered this question before

12    by saying that I didn't know.  I didn't intend any insult or anything, but

13    there is a question pertaining to the division of humanitarian aid.  I

14    wasn't involved with that.  I didn't do anything related to that.  So this

15    is what I said.  I didn't mean to be provocative or insolent.  I was just

16    making it known that there was no point in going further with these

17    questions.  That was all.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  But that's up to us to decide and not up to

19    you, Witness.  We are the Judges in this case, not you.  And if there is a

20    reason in your mind why you shouldn't answer a question, then you address

21    yourself to us and not to counsel.  And we will tell you whether to go on

22    and answer the question or not.

23            Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

24            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, just so -- I believe the question has

25    been asked and answered, in the context of rumours.

Page 3480

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, it has been answered but that didn't justify

 2    the way he retorted.

 3            So yes, Madam Fauveau, your next question.

 4            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

 5       Q.   Sir, have you ever heard that people were going from Srebrenica to

 6    Zepa?

 7       A.   Yes.  I heard that people were forced to go to Zepa to get food.

 8       Q.   Can we move to page 10 of the B/C/S version of this document,

 9    please?

10            And this will be on page 12 of the English text.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Page 12?

12            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] This is right.  I'm sorry, this will

13    be on page 9 of the B/C/S text.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  And in the English text?

15            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, it is on page 12 of the English

16    text.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

18            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

19       Q.   The paragraph which begins with number 6, which is a -- very

20    legible on the screen.  In the English version it's the last paragraph and

21    you then need to turn over on to the next page, page 13.  "[In English]

22    About 150 persons from Srebrenica came to Zepa and bought from Stitkovac

23    [phoen] 1150 litres of fuel at the price of 1 DM a litre and re-sold the

24    same quantity in Srebrenica at the price of 7 to 8 DM per litre.

25    Stitkovac was buying the fuel from the members of the Ukrainian

Page 3481

 1    battalion."

 2            Sir, have you ever heard about members of the UN selling some of

 3    their goods, foods -- food or other items to the people of Srebrenica?

 4       A.   No.  I didn't hear of that.

 5       Q.   You mentioned --

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  We need to establish whether the

 7    witness's name appears anywhere on the face of any one of the pages of

 8    these documents.  I am not in a position to see -- I don't have the B/C/S

 9    version.  I have the English version.  But I wouldn't imagine so because

10    this is a government document.

11            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I can reassure you his name does not

12    appear anywhere in this document.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we can proceed.  Thank you.  Sorry for

14    interrupting you.

15            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

16       Q.   Sir, you mentioned your arrival in Potocari, you testified about

17    the time when you tried to reach the buses.  You stated that you saw that

18    the UN soldiers were trying to prevent people from going to the buses out

19    control.  This is page 1256 of the Krstic transcript in -- on the 24th of

20    March 2000.  Can it be said that it was difficult to maintain control and

21    order in Potocari at the time?

22       A.   When we are talking about blocking the buses, they were actually

23    just checking or controlling.  When I said that people were passing

24    without any kind of control, what I meant was that properly, two or three

25    people, women, were passing through, in smaller groups, so that was

Page 3482

 1    checked.  I think that this was a practice introduced by Serb soldiers

 2    because they wanted to monitor people and wanted to have people proceed to

 3    the buses more slowly.

 4       Q.   But isn't it fair to say that in proceeding in this way, they

 5    could prevent any wounding and prevent any stampede?

 6       A.   Of course, it was a large number of people, a large crowd, so that

 7    was also possible.  However, the truth is something else.  They wanted to

 8    separate all the men, and that was the only way to do it, to have people

 9    proceed to the buses in that particular way so that it was possible to see

10    whether it was a woman, a child or a man, and then they would get a chance

11    to do that.

12       Q.   You stated that there was a large crowd of people.  Is it fair to

13    say that everybody wanted to leave Potocari, they were in a hurry to do

14    so?

15       A.   Of course, everybody wanted to be on the free territory

16    immediately.  I can tell you that from my own experience.  But this was

17    not possible.

18       Q.   In the Krstic case on page 1248 of the transcript on 24 March 2000

19    you stated you went to Potocari because if you had stayed in your house

20    you would have been killed.  And indeed, all those who stayed were killed.

21    But isn't it fair to say that all the residents of Srebrenica left before

22    the Serbs arrived?

23       A.   The Serbs did enter the town.  They were already in the town.  The

24    Serbs from Zeleni Jadar and Kucana Basta [phoen] and Petric and in the

25    centre, so the Serb army was already in the town and the people, of

Page 3483

 1    course, were afraid of the Serbian army, so they were pressed back in the

 2    direction of Potocari.

 3       Q.   But would you agree with me to say that everybody went, left?

 4       A.   Probably, there were people who remained.  I heard from friends of

 5    mine that their relatives stayed behind and they never saw their relatives

 6    again, which means that they were killed in the town.

 7       Q.   Could we move to private session so that nobody will hear?  If we

 8    were to do so would you be willing to give us the names of those people?

 9       A.   No.  I don't remember the names of those people.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  So there is no need to go into private session, I

11    take it.

12            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation].

13       Q.   Still in the Krstic case, page 1251 of the transcript of the 24th

14    of March 2000, you testified that on the 12th of July, the mere presence

15    of Serbian soldiers would raise panic and you added that the soldiers who

16    then appeared did behave quite decently.

17            Is it therefore fair to say that the mere presence, the mere

18    knowledge, that the Serbs were about to come, would cause panic among the

19    population in Potocari?

20       A.   Good question.  When referring to the first group of Serb soldiers

21    who entered, they behaved quite normally.  This was panic but far less of

22    panic.  The Serb soldiers who entered the town the next day and separated

23    people off and killed them in the immediate vicinity, those were two

24    completely different groups of people.  The first group only checked

25    identities but didn't kill.  The second group killed people.  And of

Page 3484

 1    course there was panic because if you see someone being killed in your

 2    immediate vicinity or somebody comes up to you and says they saw blood on

 3    the ground, then of course panic spreads among people.

 4       Q.   But, sir, the panic I have in mind is the one caused by the

 5    arrival of the first soldiers, because these are the ones you mentioned on

 6    pages 1250 and 1251 of the Krstic transcript, in which you stated, and I

 7    quote, "[In English] The mere presence of the Serb soldiers even though I

 8    must point out that those Serb soldiers behaved very decently."

 9    [Interpretation] This was your answer to the Prosecutor's question as to

10    why suddenly there was panic.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   My question is now, as follows, but isn't it fair to say that the

13    mere fact that people knew that the Serbs were about to come would cause

14    panic among the population in Srebrenica?

15       A.   Serb -- the Serb soldiers, when they entered, yes, it's true there

16    was panic.  What I'm saying is that the panic was greater when the second

17    group arrived and started separating people.  It's true that there was

18    panic when the first group arrived, but they were only checking men's

19    identities whereas the second group separated people off and killed them.

20    Both groups caused panic, but the first group caused less panic than the

21    second because I didn't observe the first group killing people, whereas

22    the second group took people away and killed them.

23       Q.   Thank you, Mr. President.  No further questions.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

25            So it's Mr. Sarapa left?  Mr. Sarapa is defending General

Page 3485

 1    Pandurevic in this case.  Mr. Sarapa -- together with Mr. Haynes.  Go

 2    ahead.

 3                          Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

 4       Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 5       A.   Good morning.

 6       Q.   Can we move into private session for my first question, please?

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  By all means.

 8                          [Private session]

9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session, Mr. Sarapa.

20            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation].

21       Q.   Yesterday you said that Srebrenica covered a small area and that

22    rumours spread quickly.  Was that true?

23       A.   When I said that, I was referring to the town itself.

24       Q.   Tell me, did rumours also spread about the actions of the Muslim

25    forces in the surrounding area, around Srebrenica?

Page 3486

 1       A.   Well, I have to tell you that people were more interested in

 2    things that affected them personally, such as food and getting out and the

 3    war ending.  People who were interested in finding certain -- finding out

 4    certain things, they did spread those rumours.

 5       Q.   Did you hear, between the beginning of the war until the events

 6    linked to the fall of Srebrenica, did you hear anything about the

 7    activities of the Muslim army or, rather, the 28th Division?

 8       A.   Everything I heard -- I'm afraid I'm not the right person to

 9    answer this question because I was not a member of the army, so I couldn't

10    really tell you exactly.

11       Q.   Yes.  I know that you did not participate in those actions

12    directly as a soldier.  What I would like to know, however, is whether you

13    heard about those actions, whether you heard stories about them in town.

14       A.   Well, even if I did, I might give you the wrong information here

15    because I'm not a person who can give you the proper information about

16    this.

17       Q.   Thank you.  I'll be very specific.  Did you ever hear rumours

18    about Serb villages around Srebrenica being burnt?

19       A.   Well, I heard about people going to find food in Serb villages.  I

20    did hear about that, people going to search for food, because they had to.

21      They had to either starve to death or go and die on a front line around

22    Srebrenica, or be killed by stepping on a land-mine, or to survive if they

23    managed to get through and bring food back from a Serb village.  So this

24    was actually a struggle for survival.  (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 3487

 1    (redacted).  It was a daily struggle for survival, how to survive

 2    today.  And wake up tomorrow.

 3       Q.   How did people go to get food?  Did they trade with the Serbs to

 4    get food or did they rob the Serbs of food?

 5       A.   Sir, it was women and children who went to get food without

 6    weapons, and of course if people had weapons, it's very likely that they

 7    took their weapons along, but the main aim of this was not to take

 8    territory, as far as I know, but to bring back food.

 9       Q.   Please answer my questions.  Did you ever hear that the Muslim

10    forces burnt down a single Serb village?

11       A.   Well, your definition leads me to say that I didn't.  I did hear

12    more than once that people from Srebrenica went not to a single village

13    but to several villages.  Your definition is different.  So I can't give

14    you an answer according to your definition.  I'm telling you that I heard

15    people from -- about people from Srebrenica going to several Serb villages

16    and bringing back food.

17       Q.   Well, were the people armed whether they went to get food or did

18    they go to buy food from the Serbs or to ask the Serbs for food?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, can you be specific to a time frame?

20    Because we are talking of a long time, long period of time, so -- and I

21    honestly don't see the relevance at this point in time but ...

22            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation].

23       Q.   In the period from the beginning of the military conflict, my

24    question --

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you referring to 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995?

Page 3488

 1    What --

 2            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes.  No, yes.  I am speaking of the

 3    entire time period, this entire time period.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So your last question on this matter and

 5    we'll move on to something different, Mr. Sarapa.

 6            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation].

 7       Q.   I'm talking about the time period in which military conflicts

 8    occurred and I want the witness to say whether he ever heard about Muslim

 9    forces burning down a Serb village and whether he knows of any such

10    villages, nothing else.

11       A.   Well, I've already given you my answer.  You have defined this

12    erroneously.  I'm telling you that the Muslim people from Srebrenica went

13    to Serb villages to get food.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Move to the next question, Mr. Sarapa.

15            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation].

16       Q.   Just one more question in connection with this.  Was this looting?

17    Looting of food?

18            MR. NICHOLLS:  I object at this point.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  And your objection is sustained.  Why do you

20    ask him whether this was looting or not, if he has already -- first of

21    all, he's not a lawyer.  Secondly, he's not an international law expert.

22    And secondly, even if he says no, what's in a word in any case?  I mean,

23    let's -- the Trial Chambers decide whether there was looting or not.

24            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation].

25       Q.   Just one more question in connection with this topic.  Could the

Page 3489

 1    witness tell me specifically whether it was armed or unarmed Muslims who

 2    went to get this food?

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

 4            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours have made a ruling and he's already

 5    answered that question.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  He has answered that question.  He told you if they

 7    didn't have arms, weapons, they didn't take weapons.  If they had,

 8    naturally one would expect them to have taken them with him.  He's said it

 9    already so ...

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

11            MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

12    questions.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Sarapa.  Yes, Mr. Josse?

14            MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, could we go into private session for a

15    moment?

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes of course, let's go into private session nor a

17    while, please.

18                          [Private session]

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3490










11    Page 3490 redacted. Private session.















Page 3491

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. NICHOLLS:  No re-examination, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  No re-examination.

13            I don't have any questions either.  So on behalf of the Trial

14    Chamber, and also of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come

15    over to give testimony in this Srebrenica II trial.  Our staff from the

16    Victims and Witnesses Unit will extend to you all the assistance you

17    require to facilitate your return back home and on behalf of everyone

18    present here, we wish you -- I wish you a safe journey back home.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you once again

20    for your patience, and I wish to thank all those who listened to me.

21    Thank you.

22                          [The witness withdrew]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, let's deal straight away with the question of

24    exhibits.  Mr. Nicholls?

25            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  First, well this has already

Page 3492

 1    been admitted, your, decision but P02210 is the transcript.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.

 3            MR. NICHOLLS:  P01765 through P01767 are photographs of the Luke

 4    school.  P02281 is the pseudonym sheet, which should be under seal.

 5    P02282 is the witness's sketch which should be under seal and perhaps

 6    later we can substitute one in open with a redaction as well.  P02283 is a

 7    photograph of the witness which should be under seal.  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  And you are not tendering, I take it, P00184.

 9            MR. NICHOLLS:  No.  That was one that came up but I didn't see the

10    need.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from any of the Defence teams?  None?

12    So they are all so admitted and P02281, 2282 and 2283 will be kept, will

13    be preserved under seal.

14            Mr. Zivanovic?

15            MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We would tender into

16    evidence two documents used in cross-examination of this witness.  These

17    are 5D94 and 5D95.  Thank you.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any both will be under seal, because of their

19    content, and you will give them an exhibit number because they are being

20    tendered not by 5Dbut by 1D.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour they will be 1D5D94.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any other Defence team wishes to tender any

23    document, Madam Fauveau?

24            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes.  I would seek to tender 5D31.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection?  Both as regards Mr. Zivanovic's

Page 3493

 1    request and Madam Fauveau's request?

 2            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  Just to note though that the

 3    witness, it was never established he had any familiarity whatsoever with

 4    that document but I don't have any huge objection to it coming in.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  It may become relevant in the arguments to come, I

 6    mean, or submissions to come.  So no objection from any of the Defence

 7    teams, other Defence teams either?  So they are so admitted.  And the

 8    Popovic documents will be under seal.

 9            Now, Mr. McCloskey, as I stated earlier, we have something to

10    communicate to you in relation to your recent 31st October motion for

11    protective measures for Prosecution November witnesses.  It's nothing to

12    do with Witness 40, Witness 66, 71, and 72.  There is point taken and also

13    the fact that the Defence teams do not object.

14            We are of course also aware that the Defence teams have not

15    objected to the rest of your motion, but we check, and upon checking annex

16    2 -- annex A, sorry, annex A, we encountered some problems.  I will just

17    give you one instance, and I will not proceed much further than that.  If

18    you look at Witness 69, for example, for whom you propose pseudonym

19    PW-129, according to your annex, that person testified in either Krstic

20    and/or Blagojevic, and he was granted a pseudonym as Witness X, and then

21    partial closed session.  We checked and it is true that in Krstic, that

22    was the position.  But he also testified in Blagojevic and in Blagojevic

23    he testified with face distortion and also voice distortion.  In that

24    case, he was, I think, Witness P120, please check.  Same may apply to some

25    of the others.  So what we would like you to do is to check properly

Page 3494

 1    whether the protective measure indicated in column 3 of annex A is common

 2    to both Blagojevic and Krstic or not, because it may be the case of you

 3    having to clarify this.

 4            The other thing is this:  That as to 73, Witness 73, for example,

 5    you say closed session.  Was that decided before the witness started

 6    giving evidence in a proper decision or was it something that came to be

 7    in the course of the testimony?  In the case of partial closed session

 8    then, I cannot imagine that having been decided in writing in any of the

 9    protective measure decisions in Blagojevic or in Krstic.  I would imagine

10    that as happens in this case, in the course of the testimony there would

11    be a specific request by either party to go into private session, and

12    usually there is no contest, no objection there, and the Trial Chamber

13    goes into private session.  So I think we need to know exactly what you

14    want.  Have I made myself clear enough?

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We -- you're doing an awful

16    lot of checking on us and we appreciate that and we will get to the bottom

17    of these issues.  I can tell you for that last person you talked about,

18    that was closed session from the beginning.  In fact, all of these people

19    are, as you know, were the -- were intercept operators, and the --

20    especially back in Krstic, many of them were still working in that

21    particular branch, which is an intel branch and obviously very secretive.

22    Many years have gone by and -- I know some of them are still working in

23    those branches but we will double check all these issues of course.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Otherwise, we don't have any other

25    problems.  So if you give your attention to this, the earliest you come

Page 3495

 1    back to us, the better it will be.

 2            Who is the one who is starting first?  I think it's Witness 40,

 3    isn't he?  I think it's Witness 40 who will be coming first.

 4            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  That's the person that was in closed

 5    session.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Let me check for sure, because, 40,

 7    yeah, 65 ter number 40.  According to my records, the first of these

 8    witnesses to testify will be Witness 65 ter number 40.  Now, as far as --

 9    he is one of the five about whom -- one of the four about whom I said

10    there are no problems.  So as far as he is concerned, you have an oral

11    decision here and now that the requested protective measures of facial

12    distortion and pseudonym are being granted.  They will be incorporated in

13    our final written decision, but you can communicate to the witness the

14    decision of the Trial Chamber.  All right?  Okay.

15            The rest, I think, we don't need to rush but they will be

16    incorporated in a proper written decision.

17            We are going to bring in the next witness.  I take it there are no

18    preliminary issues.  I also take it that this is going to be a full viva

19    voce testimony.

20            MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And in the first break, Mr. Haynes or Mr.

22    Meek, I don't know who is responsible, if you could kindly, as -- by way

23    of a preliminary estimate, give us an indication of how much time you

24    think you would require for cross-examination.  All right?  I mean with

25    the usual caveat you haven't heard the examination-in-chief as yet and

Page 3496

 1    this is going to be a full viva voce witness.

 2            All right.  Thank you.  Let me -- one moment.  I need to find the

 3    documents of this witness.

 4            One moment, one moment, one moment.  Don't we -- there is no one

 5    in the gallery, all right.  Okay.

 6                          [The witness entered court]

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Good morning to you, sir.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  I know that this is

10    not the first time that you're giving evidence in this Tribunal, but I

11    might as well remind you that our rules require before you start giving

12    evidence you make -- you enter a solemn declaration with us that in the

13    course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth,

14    and nothing but the truth, a declaration which is very similar or almost

15    identical to various oaths that are taken in various -- to an oath that is

16    taken in various jurisdictions.  Madam Usher has given you the text of the

17    solemn declaration.  Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

18    undertaking with us that you will be testifying the truth.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-127

22                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please make yourself comfortable.

24            I see that you were thinking that you would find warm weather,

25    summer, here in the Netherlands.  You came here prepared with short

Page 3497

 1    sleeves.  I hope you also brought a coat with you.

 2            Sir, you will be testifying now in chief first, and Mr. Thayer,

 3    who is one of the lawyers in the Prosecution team, will be the one to put

 4    questions to you, but before you do so, I want to put your mind at rest,

 5    that any concerns that you had about others getting to know that you are

 6    testifying here have been addressed by the Trial Chamber upon an ad hoc

 7    request by the Prosecution.  The Prosecution asked on your behalf for some

 8    protective measures, and we have granted two protective measures.  The

 9    first of these is hiding your identity.  We will not be referring to you

10    by your name and family name.  We will be referring to you by a pseudonym,

11    a number.  You will be referred to as Prosecution Witness 127.  The other

12    protective measure that we have put in place is facial distortion.  You

13    know that these proceedings, like every other proceedings before these

14    tribunals, are public and they are transmitted outside these four walls.

15    You can watch them on the internet and you can watch them on TV and  -- on

16    certain channels.  That would mean that if a person does -- a person's

17    identity is not protected, others would be able not only to hear what that

18    person is testifying, but also to see his or her face.  Now, the

19    Prosecution has asked that we hide your face and therefore we have granted

20    the request and you will be testifying with facial distortion.  I ask the

21    technicians to focus the camera on the witness for a while and if you look

22    at the screen in front of you, you will see how you are going to be seen,

23    a set of squares.  That's how others outside this courtroom are going to

24    see you.  That way, we are trying to secure that your identity is further

25    protected.

Page 3498

 1            Now, I also must confirm to you that in granting these protective

 2    measures, the Trial Chamber has taken into consideration the fact that all

 3    the Defence teams have agreed to the Prosecution's request to grant you

 4    these protective measures.  I wanted you to know that.

 5            Is that -- are these protective measures to your satisfaction?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  So I think there is nothing else for me to -- except

 8    that there will be instances when we will go into private session, and

 9    that's precisely when we will be discussing issues, matters, the

10    discussion of which will automatically reveal your identity, such as

11    what's your father's name, where were you born, date of birth, where do

12    you reside.  In answering such questions, one would immediately identify

13    you.  So if there are going to be any such questions, for those questions

14    and answers we will go in private session.  Private session means that

15    whatever is said remains inside these four walls, not exactly four but

16    let's assume that they are four.  All right?  Mr. Thayer, he is all yours.

17            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you, and

18    Your Honours, learned colleagues.

19                          Examination by Mr. Thayer:

20       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  I have a --

21       A.   Good morning.

22       Q.   -- document to show you and I ask you without reading out loud,

23    could you just read it to yourself and I would ask you if you can confirm

24    with a yes or a no that your name is printed on that piece of paper under

25    PW-127?

Page 3499

 1       A.   Yes.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we see it?  Yes.  The document later on will be

 3    tendered and will be kept under seal.

 4            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5       Q.   Now, Witness, I would just ask you if you could to try to stay

 6    close to the microphone and when I ask you a question or when Defence

 7    counsel ask you a question or if Their Honours ask you a question I would

 8    just ask you to wait until you've heard the entire question and speak as

 9    slowly as you can.  Everything is being interpreted.  We don't want to

10    miss anything you've said.  Okay?

11       A.   [In English] Okay.

12       Q.   And witness, if you need a break at any time, please just say so,

13    okay?

14       A.   [Interpretation] Very well.

15            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if we could go into private session

16    for a few questions.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  By all means.  Let's go into private session for a

18    while, please.

19                          [Private session]

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3500










11    Page 3500 redacted. Private session.















Page 3501

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                          [Open session]

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We are in open session, Mr. Thayer.

 5            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   In July of 1995, Witness, were you a member of the Bosnian Muslim

 7    army?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Was your father a member of that army?

10       A.   Yes, but on paper only.

11       Q.   Did he have a gun?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Was he active in any way that you knew of in the army?

14       A.   No, not at all.

15       Q.   And how about your brother?  Was he a member of the army?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Witness, I'd like to turn your attention to early July 1995, just

18    prior to the fall of Srebrenica.  Do you recall the Bosnian Serb army's

19    attack against the enclave during that time?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And what form did that attack take?

22       A.   [No interpretation]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  We didn't get any translation or any -- didn't get

24    any interpretation.

25            MR. THAYER:  Nor did I, Your Honour.  I'll ask the question again

Page 3502

 1    and see --

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Sometimes it comes in late but this time it didn't

 3    arrive at all.  Did the rest of you who are following in English get

 4    anything?  No.  All right.  So there is a technical problem that needs to

 5    be attended to.

 6            MR. THAYER:  Shall I give it another go, Your Honour?

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's try.  I haven't heard anything from the

 8    interpreters.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Maybe the witness can repeat the answer.  Thank

10    you.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  I think it's solved.  Can you --

12    Witness, can you repeat your answer?  You were first asked do you recall

13    the Bosnian Serb army's attack against the enclave in early July 1995 and

14    you said "Yes."  And then you were asked, "And what form did that attack

15    take?"  And you gave an answer but we didn't hear it, so if you could

16    repeat it, please.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was that as far as I can

18    remember, mostly it started with the shelling of the town.

19            MR. THAYER:

20       Q.   And do you have any recollection as to the date that that shelling

21    began?

22       A.   On the 7th of June.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  June or July?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] July.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  July.  All right.

Page 3503

 1            MR. THAYER:

 2       Q.   And how many days did that shelling last, Witness?

 3       A.   For me, it went on until the 10th.  The shelling was continuous,

 4    as far as I can recall.  It went on day and night, without stopping.

 5       Q.   Now, Witness, without revealing the location in which you were

 6    living, what if anything did you and your family do in response to the

 7    shelling?

 8       A.   When the shelling started, because of the place where I was

 9    living, and it was exposed to heavy shelling, we had to move to our

10    relative's place, which was a bit further down, close to the bus station.

11       Q.   And, Witness, when you refer to a bus station, where was that bus

12    station located?

13       A.   The bus station was a little bit farther off.  It was further from

14    where I was living.  It was close to the secondary, high school centre.

15       Q.   And would this be closer into the actual town of Srebrenica?

16       A.   Yes, yes.  You could even say that it was in the very centre

17    itself.

18       Q.   Do you recall the actual date that you and your family went to

19    Srebrenica?

20       A.   I would like to ask you just to repeat the question.  Which period

21    do you mean exactly, when and where?

22       Q.   I'm referring to when your family was fleeing the shelling that

23    you just testified about.  Do you recall what day that was that you went

24    into Srebrenica?

25       A.   I think that this was on the 9th.

Page 3504

 1       Q.   And at that time did you also observe any of your neighbours

 2    leaving?

 3       A.   Yes.  There were a lot of people concentrated in that place, and

 4    most of them left.  They went away.

 5       Q.   To your knowledge, did they head into Srebrenica as well, or did

 6    they also head to other destinations?

 7       A.   Mostly they went to the centre, to the place where I went, because

 8    the shelling was not so heavy there.

 9       Q.   And you indicated that you stayed with some relatives while you

10    were there.  Where were --

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   -- you physically situated during the shelling?

13       A.   In a house.

14       Q.   Were you inside the house during the entire time you were there or

15    were you able to get outside on occasion?

16       A.   Yes.  You could go out occasionally, for a very short period of

17    time.

18       Q.   Can you describe what it was like in Srebrenica during this time?

19       A.   It was a catastrophe.  It was exhausting.  The shelling was

20    continuous.  It would perhaps stop for ten minutes and you would think

21    perhaps it will stop and then it would start again.  You would find

22    yourself in an unprotected area and you could see exactly where a shell

23    would fall.  It would fall on to a house, quite close.  You could see the

24    smoke.  It's very difficult to describe that experience but it was

25    horrible.

Page 3505

 1            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, I see we are approaching the first break

 2    and I think this would be a logical time to stop.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25-minute break, starting from now.

 4    There are people in the gallery.  30 minutes.  Oh, I see, I'm reminded it

 5    has to be a 30-minute break because of redactions that we did.  There are

 6    people in the gallery so I think you need to take the usual precautions.

 7    Thank you.

 8                          --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 9                          --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Sorry for the brief delay, but we were discussing

11    out something that came to our information and maybe we'll need to come

12    back to you later on but for the time being, I don't want to take any more

13    minutes from this testimony.

14            So Mr. Thayer, you're in possession of the floor.  You can

15    proceed.  Thank you.

16            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17       Q.   Sir, when we left off, you had been testifying about how you and

18    your family were in the town of Srebrenica.  Do you recall at some point

19    returning with your family to your home?

20       A.   Yes.  That was on the 11th.  Everything was quiet so we had the

21    feeling that it was all going to stop.  It all seemed so peaceful on that

22    morning, the 11th.

23       Q.   So what did you do?

24       A.   First, I went to a place called Petric, and then I went to the

25    place where I lived.

Page 3506

 1       Q.   And at some point did you return to Srebrenica, sir?

 2       A.   Oh, yes, yes.  That was on the 11th, when everything seemed, all

 3    those projectiles, the fear, the problems, one had the impression that

 4    morning that it was all going to end.

 5       Q.   Just so the record is clear, sir, did something happen that

 6    changed your mind in some way such that you returned to Srebrenica?

 7       A.   Well, the lull in the shelling.  We thought we could go back to

 8    our place of residence.  One had the impression, at least that's what it

 9    seemed like.

10       Q.   And then what happened once you were back home where you were

11    living?

12       A.   Until 2.00, I remember everything was all right.  Everything

13    seemed so normal.  And then all of a sudden, at 2.00 p.m., shelling and

14    shooting started from Crni Guber and Zabojna.  It was terrible.  Suddenly,

15    there were all these projectiles shooting from Guber.  It was a disaster.

16    As I was a bit further away from the house where we lived, I set out

17    toward the centre of Srebrenica.  There were other people going in the

18    same direction.  My family had left the house in about ten minutes, and

19    went to the place where they had been hiding three days before.

20       Q.   And was there a particular location in Srebrenica where you fled,

21    sir?

22       A.   Like everybody else, we fled to a place near the petrol station in

23    Srebrenica.  That was a kind of gathering point.  There were both men and

24    women there.

25       Q.   And did this gathering point have a name?

Page 3507

 1       A.   I only know that near that place there was a place called Kazani,

 2    near the petrol station.  Further on from the petrol station the place was

 3    called Kazani.

 4       Q.   Did you reunite with your family during this period of time?

 5       A.   Yes.  I was with my father, my brother, my mother and my younger

 6    sister.

 7       Q.   And did you as a family make a decision as to what to do next?

 8       A.   Yes.  My brother, my father and I decided to go in the direction

 9    of Tuzla.  My mother and my sister, like all the other women and children,

10    went in the direction of Potocari.  That was when we parted, before

11    leaving in the direction of Tuzla.

12       Q.   And why did your mother and your sister head in the direction of

13    Potocari, sir?

14       A.   We thought, like everybody else, that as we knew the UNPROFOR

15    forces were there, they might not have problems or be killed by the Serb

16    army.  As we knew from the very beginning of the war what lay in store for

17    us if we went there, we decided to go towards Tuzla, like everybody else.

18       Q.   Just so the record is clear, witness, in your last answer when you

19    refer to we decided to go towards Tuzla, you're referring to the males in

20    your family?

21       A.   Yes, correct.

22       Q.   Witness, did anyone tell you to go to Tuzla or tell your family

23    that the women should go to Potocari?

24       A.   No.  We followed the crowd.  The women and children were going

25    towards Potocari, but this was not organised.  We just did what most

Page 3508

 1    people were doing.

 2       Q.   You answered a couple of questions ago that the reason that you

 3    and your father and brother headed towards Tuzla was that you knew from

 4    the beginning of the war what lay in store.  Just can you be clear, what

 5    were you --

 6            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to that.   It's a leading

 7    question.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  He hasn't finished the question, but what's your

 9    objection, because it's a leading question?

10            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  But he hasn't finished -- He hasn't even finished

12    the question.  I have in my transcript:  "You answered a couple of

13    questions ago that the reason that you and your father and brother headed

14    towards Tuzla was that you knew from the beginning of the war what lay in

15    store.  Just can you be clear, what were you" -- and then he was

16    interrupted.  Where is the --

17            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, I heard more.  But it's

18    not in the transcript, in the translation.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  So what did you hear in B/C/S?  Because this we need

20    to know obviously.

21            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the interpretation, I heard, you

22    knew what lay in store.  Please be clear.  And counsel was preparing to

23    put a leading question.  That was my impression, listening to the

24    interpretation.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  It is not different from what we have in the

Page 3509

 1    transcript in any case.  Because in the transcript, the counsel is putting

 2    to the witness that he has already in his testimony stated that he and the

 3    rest of the family knew from the beginning of the war what lay in store,

 4    and he is being asked to explain.

 5            So -- go ahead, any way.  Let's proceed straight away.  Finish

 6    your question, please.  If you haven't finished it as yet.

 7            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8       Q.   Just to be clear, what were you worried about, sir?

 9       A.   Well, to be quite specific, not only did we decide on our own to

10    go towards Tuzla rather than going towards Potocari, but we followed most

11    of the people who were already on the way towards Tuzla from the place

12    called Kazani.  It never occurred to us to go to Potocari.  So that's why

13    it seems that --

14       Q.   Sir, when you stated a few moments ago that you knew what was in

15    store for us, what did you mean when you said "in store for us"?  What

16    were you afraid of?

17       A.   Yes.  I think I understand your question now.  We were afraid

18    because of everything that had been happening from the beginning of the

19    war, and all the shelling in Srebrenica.  It was quite evident they wanted

20    to kill us all.  Evidently that was their goal.  That's what I meant.

21    When I said from the very beginning of the war, in view of everything we

22    had gone through, the shelling four days before, the attacks, we assumed

23    what would happen to us if we went to Potocari.  We knew not just me but

24    all the others knew.

25       Q.   Now, you indicated that you followed some other people that were

Page 3510

 1    heading in a direction of Tuzla.  Were there women in that group, sir, at

 2    that time?

 3       A.   At that point in time, I don't think I observed many women.  There

 4    were individual cases here and there.

 5       Q.   And with regard to the males in that group, when you first set

 6    out, can you describe --

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment because it's -- I don't think I observed

 8    many -- oh, I see many women.  There were individual cases.  Okay, that's

 9    clear enough.

10            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thought I had heard him say any woman but it is

12    many, not any.

13            MR. THAYER:

14       Q.   With respect to the males in the group, can you describe to the

15    Trial Chamber the age range?

16       A.   For the most part, they were of all ages, boys younger than me,

17    people aged 30, 40, up to 60.  That's the people I saw in the group I was

18    in.

19       Q.   And at that point, did you see any of these people armed?

20       A.   Not at that point in time.  I didn't see anyone with weapons.

21       Q.   And were you travelling on foot, Witness?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And approximately how long did you walk, do you recall?

24       A.   Well, approximately we went from Kazan until night fell.  As far

25    as I can recall, it was a long journey and then we continued by night.

Page 3511

 1    After that, I was exhausted, hungry.  I had been through so much.  I fell

 2    asleep at some point during the night, but I couldn't tell you what the

 3    time was.

 4       Q.   Do you recall the names of some of the areas through which you

 5    passed during that first day and night of walking on the 11th of July?

 6       A.   Yes.  I remember.  I heard someone in the group say we were going

 7    through Susnjari and I remember the place called Jaglici.

 8       Q.   When you awoke, what time of day was it?

 9       A.   It was in the afternoon.  We had walked from Kazani until deep

10    into the night, through Susnjari and Jaglici.

11       Q.   So when you woke up, this would have been the 12th of July, just

12    to be clear?

13       A.   Correct.  It was on the 12th of July.  When I woke up neither my

14    brother nor my father were there.  They had probably become separated from

15    me, but I won't go into details because I don't remember exactly how this

16    happened because I was so exhausted and sleepy.  When I awoke, I saw other

17    men there, but I had the impression I had ended up at the end of the

18    column.  I thought that while I had slept, many men had passed by and gone

19    on ahead.

20       Q.   Did you know the name of the location where you woke up to find

21    yourself?

22       A.   Yes.  When I woke up, there were other men around me and I

23    asked, "Where are we exactly?"  And one of them said we were in a place

24    called Buljim.

25       Q.   And what was your impression, Witness, as to your location at that

Page 3512

 1    point in the column of men?  You testified that you were at the end of the

 2    column.  Were you at the very end, towards the end?

 3       A.   Not at the very end.  I can't say we were at the very end but it

 4    was towards the end of the column because most of them had already passed

 5    us by.

 6       Q.   And at that point, Witness, were members of the column armed that

 7    you saw?

 8       A.   At that point in time, I was able to move around among the men.  I

 9    was looking for my father and brother.  And then I did see some 50 armed

10    men, in my estimation.  I'm referring to Muslims.

11       Q.   Would you just briefly describe, sir, the types of arms or weapons

12    that you saw?

13       A.   Mostly these were automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles, and

14    also hunting weapons.

15       Q.   Witness, as you made your way from that location, did the column

16    come under attack?

17       A.   As we moved from Buljim, from that field where I had slept, the

18    column was attacked.  They shot at the column, threw hand grenades and so

19    on.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Shells.  They fired

21    shells.

22            MR. THAYER:

23       Q.   At some point, were you reunited with your father?

24       A.   When we set out from Buljim, the column was under constant

25    attack.  As we moved through the forests and over the hills, we arrived

Page 3513

 1    at a hill where there was a slope on one side and there were very many

 2    men there.  I don't dare give you any numbers.  But when we entered that

 3    group of men, when we went in among them, I found my father.  When I found

 4    him, he looked ill and I asked him what had happened.  He said that as

 5    they were going from Buljim, a projectile was fired and he was lifted up

 6    by the detonation, by the force of the explosion, and thrown against a

 7    tree.  He was full of bruises and found it difficult to move.  When I

 8    found my father, we stayed there for a while, and then at one point we

 9    heard Serbs shouting out to each other, calling out to each other, making

10    grimaces, and then we suddenly heard a sound which was like a strong wind

11    or a storm, and we all wondered what was happening, and this was followed

12    by shooting, shelling, people were running every which way.  I helped my

13    father and we went straight ahead to get away from the place where we

14    were.  There was a lot of shooting, and I saw many men falling down, who

15    had been shot.  At one point, I felt heat, I don't know what it might have

16    been, but it was something hot, and we started to flee towards the next

17    hill.  We had to wade through a small stream, a creek, and fortunately my

18    father and I managed to get away from that area, and we were in a place

19    some 200 or 300 metres further on.  And we could hear people moaning,

20    crying out for help.  There was shooting, firing, which never stopped, and

21    then later on we heard people moaning and -- and then we went on until it

22    started to get dark.

23       Q.   At some point, Witness, did you find your brother?

24       A.   Yes.  When we managed to get out of the ambush, and I think that

25    was the first ambush after we left Buljim.  After the ambush we managed to

Page 3514

 1    find my brother.  There was a small hill there and we stayed there.  There

 2    were other people there who managed to escape or they had arrived there

 3    before.  So there was a group of people there, and night fell.  When we

 4    got there we couldn't continue.  And I remember that again, I say again, I

 5    fell asleep because I was tired and because of everything that had

 6    happened.  In the morning when I woke up, this was now on the 13th of

 7    July, at one point I looked around and I saw around me half a body.  Seven

 8    to ten metres away, there were massacred bodies, there was a lot of blood.

 9    At that point it was very hot, and you could feel human blood.  And I

10    threw up.  I was very afraid.  And then I saw a path that had been made, I

11    think a lot of people had made the path.  They had passed that way before.

12    So I followed the path for some 500 metres or so.  And in the woods again,

13    I met a group of people.  And in this group of people, I found my father

14    and my brother.  So I got there again.

15       Q.   I don't want to dwell too long on the scene that you saw when you

16    woke up on the 13th, but, Witness, did you recognise anybody among the

17    dead?

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted) Let's go into private session.

24                          [Private session]

25            (redacted)

Page 3515

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            MR. THAYER:  I apologise to the Chamber and the witness for not

13    guiding him a little better with respect to that last question.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  It happens.  I mean, you can't always be watchful

15    for everything, and mistakes are bound to be made.  So don't worry about

16    it.  Provided there is always a solution, I wouldn't worry that much.

17            MR. THAYER:

18       Q.   Now, Witness, you described finding your father and brother again.

19    Can you describe the location where you were reunited with them?

20       A.   I didn't know what that place was, what the name of it was, but in

21    any case, from there we could see the asphalt below, from the place where

22    we were, where I found my father and my brother again.  It was a wood and

23    a hill, more or less.

24       Q.   And when you refer to asphalt, what are you talking about, sir?

25       A.   I'm talking about the road that was stretched down below in the

Page 3516

 1    canyon.  That's what it looked like, a canyon.  It's an asphalt road, a

 2    road.

 3       Q.   From your position on that hill, can you tell the Trial Chamber

 4    what you saw and heard?

 5       A.   From that position, you could hear Serbs calling over loudspeakers

 6    for us to surrender.  I saw an UNPROFOR personnel carrier with blue

 7    helmets on them, so we immediately recognised that this was the UNPROFOR.

 8    At one point, when they were calling out to us, they said, "Come down,

 9    don't be afraid.  UNPROFOR is here to make it possible for you to be

10    escorted to Tuzla."

11       Q.   What did you decide to do then, sir?

12       A.   Well, before we saw the UNPROFOR personnel carrier, nobody even

13    thought about surrendering.  I mean, why would we escape to the woods

14    otherwise?  But after this APC, it was my impression, well, the UNPROFOR

15    is here, I don't think that they will kill us so easily.  I thought that

16    there was some hope, because I was tired and because of all the horrible

17    things while crossing through the woods, I had then asked my father and my

18    brother to go with me so that we can surrender.  I think they gave us two

19    ultimatums, one was at 12.00 and then the second one at 2.00 was when we

20    decided to go down and surrender, because the personnel carrier was

21    constantly going up and down there, to let people know that it was

22    UNPROFOR, to impress that upon people better.

23       Q.   And can you give the Trial Chamber some idea of the distance from

24    the road your position was?

25       A.   No.  We weren't far.  They didn't even need to use a loud speaker

Page 3517

 1    any more to call us to surrender.  We could hear voices.  They were

 2    calling out to us, just like that.  You could hear the voice from that

 3    distance.  It wasn't really that far.

 4       Q.   So after you made the decision to surrender, sir, what did you

 5    do?

 6       A.   Me and my brother then helped my father to go down.  We needed to

 7    walk down the hill.  There were some other people too.  It was like a

 8    column that was going down to the asphalt.

 9       Q.   Would you describe the path that you took and what you encountered

10    along that path?

11       A.   We were coming down the hill, and there were people who had been

12    killed lying along the path.  I saw that.  You went through the woods and

13    then there was a meadow and it was all overgrown.  The terrain was such

14    that most of us actually kept to the hill in order to get down.

15       Q.   And at some point did you encounter Serb soldiers?

16       A.   No.  We could see them down there at the road, the asphalt road.

17       Q.   Now, as you were making your way out of the woods, can you

18    describe for the Trial Chamber when you first encountered, in person, or

19    at a close distance, any Serb soldiers?

20       A.   We first had to cross a creek, then there was a small incline, and

21    there were two Serb soldiers there and they asked us if we had money or

22    jewellery or any other valuables and if we did have that, they wanted us

23    to hand it over to them right away.  That was the first contact.

24       Q.   And, Witness, did you have any money or valuables with you?

25       A.   No.  No, I didn't have anything like that with me.

Page 3518

 1       Q.   So what did you do next?

 2       A.   So then after those first two who were asking for money, there

 3    were another two on my left side, and you could already see the house that

 4    we would pass next to later.  There were two asking, "Those who have money

 5    should give it here."  I didn't have anything so I passed on.  Then I saw,

 6    after those two, a civilian who was killed, and he was on my right side.

 7       Q.   Let me just stop you right there.  You referred to a second pair

 8    of Serb soldiers who were demanding money as you got near the house.  Can

 9    you describe anything about them that you recall for the Trial Chamber?

10       A.   I remember that one of them was wearing ammunition belts.  He was

11    wearing bandoliers, two of them, and then on the left side, he had

12    insignia with the coat of arms, with the four letters S on a red

13    background.  This is what I was able to notice as I was passing.

14       Q.   You referred to a dead civilian whom you passed as you neared the

15    house.  Did you see anyone else who stood out in your mind?

16       A.   Could you be a little bit more specific?  Did I see any more dead

17    bodies or did I see anyone else?  I'm sorry.

18       Q.   Did you see any other living civilians or anyone else who stood

19    out in your mind as you were walking from where you emerged from the woods

20    towards the house?

21       A.   Yes.  Other than that civilian who was killed, in front of me

22    there was a young man.  I don't know if I should say his name or not.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  You can say his name in private session.  So let's

24    go in a private session for a short while.

25                          [Private session]

Page 3519










11    Page 3519 redacted. Private session.















Page 3520

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19                          [Open session]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

21            MR. THAYER:

22       Q.   Witness, yesterday in my office, did you watch a portion of a

23    video?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And had you seen that video previously?

Page 3521

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And from your recollection of the events as you were emerging from

 3    the woods, do you have any idea of how that videotape was made?

 4       A.   Yes.  I think that I forgot to tell you that.  I saw a camera on

 5    my right side.  So it was before we reached the house, (redacted)

 6    (redacted).  It was on the right.  The cameraman was on

 7    the right-hand side and I actually did happen to look at him.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's redact line 10 or -- line 10 and

 9    11 of the -- of page 52, the words before, "they told," up to "shirt off."

10      Then we can continue.

11            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12       Q.   You stated that there was a camera.  Was there somebody operating

13    this camera, sir?

14       A.   Yes.  I think that it was filmed.  There was a cameraman on my

15    right-hand side.

16            MR. THAYER:  If we may move again into private session, Your

17    Honour, I think we can proceed?

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly.  Let's move back to private session for a

19    short while, please.

20                          [Private session]

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3522










11    Page 3522 redacted. Private session.















Page 3523

 1            (redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 4            MR. THAYER:

 5       Q.   I want to turn your attention, Witness, back to the house that

 6    you've mentioned a couple of times.  Can you just describe the appearance

 7    of the house?

 8       A.   The house that was there on my right-hand side, looked as if it

 9    had been set on fire already.  That's what it seemed to me, as I was

10    passing it.  It was on my right-hand side.  I could see there was some

11    steps there.  That's it more or less.

12       Q.   After you passed the house, where did you go next?

13       A.   Yes.  When you pass the house, you reach the asphalt, and then you

14    had to turn left.  And then when you turned left.  You crossed the ash

15    fault, and then when you turn left, there was a meadow on your right-hand

16    side where there were a lot of people.

17       Q.   What if anything did the men who were surrendering do with any

18    back-packs or other belongings that they had carried with them?

19       A.   If you had a back-pack or something with you, you had to leave it

20    before you reached the asphalt.  I saw back packs on my right-hand side,

21    on the -- where the house was.  So in order to reach the meadow also, you

22    had to leave everything that you had, either before you reached the

23    asphalt or afterwards.  In any case, before you reached the meadow.

24       Q.   And this meadow you've referred to, was it level with the road or

25    was it at a different level with the road?

Page 3524

 1       A.   No.  It wasn't level with the road.  I think that it was at a

 2    different level.  It's a little bit higher.  There is a slight incline in

 3    order to reach it.

 4       Q.   When you arrived at the meadow, can you estimate for the Trial

 5    Chamber approximately how many other people you saw there?  I'm referring

 6    to Muslim men.

 7       A.   I would think that there were between 900 to a thousand people

 8    there for sure.  This is my own estimate.

 9       Q.   Did you see any military vehicles in that area near the meadow?

10       A.   Yes.  When you reached the meadow from the asphalt, on my left

11    side there was a black tank.

12       Q.   Do you recall in which direction the barrel was pointed?

13       A.   The barrel was pointed in the direction from which we had come, in

14    the direction of the hill.

15       Q.   And was there a machine-gun mounted on this tank?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And where was it pointed?

18       A.   It was pointed at all of us, all of us who were in the meadow, all

19    of us.  There was a soldier manning it at all times, and he kept

20    threatening constantly, "I'm going to kill you," and so on.  And he was

21    hurling insults.

22       Q.   Now, Witness, you testified previously having seen a UN APC and

23    soldiers wearing the what appeared to be to be blue UN helmets when you

24    were being called on to surrender.  Did you see any soldiers in UN helmets

25    again after you came out of the woods?

Page 3525

 1       A.   No.  After I came to the meadow, I didn't see the APC any more,

 2    the blue helmets.  There were others there wearing UN clothing.

 3       Q.   And what kind of UN clothing were you referring to, sir?

 4       A.   I think they had UNPROFOR armour -- bullet-proof vests.

 5       Q.   Can you describe what those looked like?

 6       A.   Well, how can I describe it?  You mean what they look like or the

 7    colour?  It was a kind of a green and brown colour.  I knew it -- I knew

 8    them well and I'm sure of what I'm saying.  I could describe it with the

 9    assistance of a picture, if you have one.

10       Q.   We'll get to that later, sir.  When you describe it as [French

11    coming over the English channel.]

12            MR. THAYER:  We are getting some French.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Much to Madam Fauveau's pleasure.

14            MR. THAYER:  Some Maurice Chevalier, Your Honour.  I'll try the

15    next question again, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please do.

17            MR. THAYER:

18       Q.   You described it as a kind of green and brown colour.  Was this a

19    camouflage, sir?

20       A.   Yes.  Camouflage, yes.  It was a kind of light brown colour that

21    was very prominent.

22       Q.   Now, how is it that you believe you're so familiar with the UN --

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

24            Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

25            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, I don't believe we have an appropriate

Page 3526

 1    translation.  What I heard the witness said regarding the tone of brown

 2    colour was kafe na bojak meaning colour of coffee.  And here we have a

 3    light brown.  I believe it was quite the opposite of what he meant.  It

 4    was very dark brown.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  The witness has heard what you have to say.  If he

 6    wants to correct or explain it again or describe it again, it's up to him

 7    and up to you, Mr. Thayer.  He's not our witness.

 8            MR. THAYER:

 9       Q.   Witness, did you understand what Mr. President just clarified?

10       A.   Yes.  Well, there is no need to explain.  If you show me a

11    picture, I can tell you exactly what I mean.

12       Q.   And, Witness, we will he do that.  Simply the colour you

13    identified on these flak jackets, was it a light brown or a dark brown or

14    neither?

15       A.   Coffee coloured.  I was talking about coffee coloured.  I didn't

16    say anything about light or dark.  I may have done but does anyone

17    remember?  It was coffee coloured and green, all mixed together.  They

18    were mixed together, those colours.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can proceed.  Come on.  I wish we don't

20    lose much time on these issues.

21            MR. THAYER:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

22       Q.   Now, how is it, sir, that you're so familiar with the UN flak

23    jackets?

24       A.   Well, you know, in Srebrenica, we were more than once in a

25    situation where we had nothing to eat.  As a boy, I went to the UNPROFOR

Page 3527

 1    points, check-points, to ask them to give me something to eat, because I

 2    was hungry, and we had nothing to eat.  The situation was disastrous, and

 3    there were times when we had nothing to eat.  So I had to go to UNPROFOR

 4    to ask them to give me some food to eat so I would survive.  And the

 5    patrols that passed by, I had many close encounters with UNPROFOR.

 6            MR. THAYER:  At this time I'd ask for 65 ter 1583 to be displayed

 7    on e-court, please.

 8       Q.   Sir, do you see an image on your screen?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And can you describe for the Trial Chamber what that depicts?

11       A.   In fact, this picture shows where we came from the house, the

12    house itself, and the place where we were all placed.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think he should mark these places, the house and

14    the location where -- which he's just referred to.

15            MR. THAYER:  Yes, Your Honour, that's where I'm going next.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  I would have imagined so.  Let's assist him, yeah.

17    Go ahead.  Ask him what you need to ask him, please.

18            MR. THAYER:

19       Q.   Now, sir, I'd ask to you take that stylus and if you would, just

20    trace the path that you took as you emerged from the woods, past the

21    house, and then ultimately to the location where you were held?

22       A.   Here, like this.  This is where I went and this is where the tank

23    was.

24       Q.   And next to, if you would, to the right of where you just

25    indicated the tank was, can you just write the word "tank"?  If you know

Page 3528

 1    it in English, in English; if not, in your own language, sir?

 2       A.   [Marks].

 3       Q.   And if you would, would you just draw a larger circle to indicate

 4    the general area where you and the others were being held?

 5       A.   [Marks].

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  And the place where the house was that I delay.

 7       Q.   If you would just write next to the circle you just drew the word

 8    house in English, if you know it?

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  If he knows.  If he doesn't he can write "kuca."

10       A.   [Marks].

11            MR. THAYER:

12       Q.   In the lower corner would you write PW-127, please and today's

13    date?

14       A.   [Marks].

15       Q.   Witness, if you could please --

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  I -- I haven't seen him doing this.  Usher, could

17    you assist him please and explain to him where he needs to put PW-127?  In

18    any of the corners.  It's not important if it's the left or the right.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 127?

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

22            MR. THAYER:  Thank you.  I think we can save this image now.  And

23    I would ask at this point that 65 ter number 1584 be displayed on e-court,

24    please.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 3529

 1            MR. LAZAREVIC:  I don't know if it's important for Mr. Thayer but

 2    he also asked for a date of the marking of this photograph.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  All right.  I think we can do that.

 4            Witness, where you wrote PW-127, just below or above, could you

 5    also put today's date, please, which is 2nd November, 2/11/2006.  All

 6    right.  Okay.  We can't do it now because we have already moved to the

 7    next picture.  But anyway, we'll do it later or whenever.

 8            Yes.

 9            MR. THAYER:

10       Q.   Do you see an image on your screen now, sir?

11       A.   Yes, I do.

12       Q.   Would you describe what that depicts for the Trial Chamber,

13    please?

14       A.   I see a house, a cemetery below the house, and a lot of litter,

15    rubbish.

16       Q.   Do you recognise that house, sir?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And which house is this?

19       A.   That's the house that we passed by on that day we were taken

20    prisoner.

21       Q.   And you indicated, sir, that you passed it on your right; is that

22    correct?

23       A.   Yes.  It was to my right, or, rather, looking at it from this

24    direction, it's on the left.

25       Q.   Can you -- we'll just clarify this right now.  If you just take

Page 3530

 1    the stylus, sir, and please indicate where you passed by there house, just

 2    indicate it with an X.

 3       A.   It's this area here.

 4       Q.   And if you would just turn that into an arrow to indicate your

 5    direction of travel, sir?  Which direction were you heading?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And if you would again just write PW-127 and today's date and then

 8    we'll be done with this exhibit.

 9       A.   [Marks].

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Is this the front of the house or the back of the

11    house?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the back, the back of the

13    house.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  That makes sense otherwise can wouldn't match the

15    other picture what he marked on the other picture.  Let's move.

16            MR. THAYER:

17       Q.   I want to turn your attention back to the meadow, sir.  Can you

18    give the Trial Chamber an idea of how many Serb soldiers you saw in the

19    area of the meadow?

20       A.   There were as many as ants in an ant hill.  Wherever you looked,

21    wherever you turned your gaze, there were Serb soldiers there.

22       Q.   And did you see any Serb soldiers do anything with particular

23    Muslim prisoners who were with you in that meadow?

24       A.   Yes.  I saw that two of them would take the men, they would -- I

25    saw them take five men behind the tank to my right, behind the tank to my

Page 3531

 1    right there was some kind of an maize field and that's where they took the

 2    men.

 3       Q.   If we could move into private session, just briefly, Your Honour?

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's move into private session nor a short

 5    while.

 6                          [Private session]

7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3532

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                          [Open session]

 9            MR. THAYER:

10       Q.   Now, without referring to the names of anybody whom you just

11    mentioned, did you see any of those people return after they had been

12    brought away?

13       A.   None of them returned while I was there.

14       Q.   To your knowledge, has anyone seen or heard from any of those

15    individuals since that day?

16       A.   From that day until three months ago, nothing was heard of them,

17    and they never turned up anywhere.  I have information that's three months

18    old.  So until three months ago, none of the individuals I've mentioned

19    turned up alive anywhere.

20       Q.   Would you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what you recall

21    happening to you next?

22       A.   When we arrived on the meadow, one of the Serb soldiers told me to

23    go to the left.  That's left looking away from the road, up the meadow, to

24    the left of the tank.  So I went up there and sat down.  I joined a group

25    there.  And I saw those Serb soldiers and I saw the two I had seen before

Page 3533

 1    asking for money, they came to the group, looking for money and jewellery,

 2    and some others.  At one point, I saw a Muslim prisoner who gave a Serb

 3    soldier who was to my right about a metre or two away it to my right, he

 4    gave them 20 German marks.  I remember that well.

 5       Q.   I just want to clarify one thing, sir.  You referred a moment ago

 6    to seeing the two Serb soldiers who had been asking for money earlier come

 7    back to the meadow, you've talked about two sets of soldiers who were

 8    asking for money.  Could you just clarify for the Trial Chamber, please,

 9    which two Serb soldiers you saw back at the money -- back at the meadow

10    again demanding money?

11       A.   Well, to put it more simply, after the surrender, the first

12    encounter with the Serb soldiers, the first two we encountered, I think

13    you'll find that I said they were sitting to my left, there was the one

14    with two bandoliers crossed across his chest, those two came back.  I mean

15    they turned up again on the meadow.  They were there asking for money.

16       Q.   What happened next, sir?

17       A.   After that, a Serb soldier sitting on the tank said, "Fuck your

18    balija mother.  Get up and come here."  The plan in front of me stood up

19    and the man said, "Fuck.  Your mother, not you.  The one sitting behind

20    you."  I stood up and came up to the tank and he gave me two water

21    canisters.  He told me to go down to at a time asphalt road, turn left,

22    and get some water and bring it back for the wounded.  I did as

23    instructed.  I took those canisters.  I went to the left.  The distance

24    was about 150 metres and there were some water there, across the road from

25    the house, in the right-hand corner.

Page 3534

 1       Q.   And when you passed by the house, first of all, are you referring

 2    to the house which you identified a few moments ago on the photograph?

 3       A.   Yes, yes, the same house, yes.  I do apologise.  I'm referring to

 4    the same house when I'm describing this.

 5       Q.   Did you notice anything near the house or at the house when you

 6    were fetching the water?

 7       A.   There were soldiers standing around the house.  I noticed, how

 8    shall I put this, a neighbour, I don't want to mention his name.  They had

 9    probably separated him off before.  And you could hear sounds of beating

10    coming from the house.  You could hear cries.  You could hear blows.  They

11    were beating people there.

12       Q.   What did you do after you fetched the water?

13       A.   I went back to the meadow.  They told me to distribute the water,

14    give everybody a little water, and that's what I did.  I remember I had

15    those two canisters and I distributed the water and then I went back to

16    get some more water.

17       Q.   At some point while you were distributing the water, did you see

18    your father and brother?

19       A.   Yes.  I did.  I gave my father some water to drink.

20       Q.   And you just were testifying that you went back to fetch more

21    water.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened next?

22       A.   Waiting for the water, at one point I saw two black cars driving

23    up, and stopping.  After that, because there were three or four of us

24    fetching water for the wounded, and we were waiting, I was approached by a

25    Serb soldier who said, "Fuck your mother.  Why are you laughing?"  I

Page 3535

 1    said, "I'm not laughing."  I didn't feel like laughing at that time.  And

 2    he said, "Don't answer back."  And then another soldier, who was there on

 3    my right, said, "Let the young man go.  Let the boy go."  I think that

 4    helped a little.  So this first soldier, who had been pointing his rifle

 5    at me, left.  I think the second one, who was on my right, was some kind

 6    of commander or boss.  He was in charge because this first one obeyed him.

 7    When he left, there were buses coming from Potocari with women and

 8    children in them.  One of them stopped nearby.  The man opened the door

 9    and said, "Get some water and put it here next to the wheel."  He gave me

10    a packet to fill and he got out and talked to the Serb soldiers.  There

11    were many of them there.  And I took my chance.  I entered the bus and I

12    thought I'd take my chance.  I hid among some women.  They put some sort

13    of bags on top of me to conceal me.  The driver spent some time talking

14    outside.  Then he got back in, switched on the engine and nobody noticed

15    that I was hiding in the bus.

16       Q.   And when you saw your chance to get on the bus, sir, did you let

17    any of the Serb soldiers in the area know that you were getting on the

18    bus?

19       A.   It didn't occur to me.  It would have been a crazy thing to do.  I

20    tried to be as discreet as possible, to get on the bus without being

21    observed.  They would certainly have pulled me out.  Maybe they would have

22    killed me on the spot.  Well, I don't know what they would have done.  I

23    won't go into details but I'm sure they wouldn't have let me board the

24    bus.

25            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, I see we are approaching the break time.

Page 3536

 1    I only have a couple of short video clips and some follow-up questions and

 2    then I will conclude my examination-in-chief so I think this will be a

 3    logical time to take the break.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We need a 30 minute -- we will have a

 5    30-minute break starting from now.  Thank you.

 6                          --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

 7                          --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer, please, go ahead.

 9            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Before you continue, one moment.  One question that

11    hasn't been asked.  Was the witness ever in that place, that meadow,

12    before in his life?  Was he familiar with the area, in other words?

13            MR. THAYER:

14       Q.   Witness, did you understand Mr. President's question?

15       A.   Yes.  I understood the question.  I'd never been there before.  I

16    wasn't familiar with that place.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  And you wouldn't know the name of the area?  Or you

18    didn't know then, did you?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Thayer.

21            MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22       Q.   Just to follow up briefly on the question, sir, have you ever

23    returned to that area since the day you were kept prisoner in the meadow?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   When was that?

Page 3537

 1       A.   Three months ago, three months ago.

 2       Q.   And did you do that in connection with any event?

 3       A.   I just had the desire to go and see, to see how I would feel after

 4    such things had happened, how I would feel if I returned to the same

 5    place.

 6       Q.   And I guess the natural question is how did it make you feel,

 7    sir?

 8       A.   Well, it's not a great feeling, when you know that you left your

 9    father there, that he's gone, when you know that just a couple of hours

10    before, you were in Srebrenica and how many people were buried that day.

11    It makes your heart work hard, and all these emotions come up and then at

12    one point you say why did I have to do that, why did you have to go see

13    that?  The whole event comes back to you.  You recall everything that had

14    happened.  You are reminded of what happened there, why this had to

15    happen, what was the reason why these people were killed, and so finally

16    then you have one answer or no answer.

17            My personal opinion was that because we were Muslims, they wanted

18    to kill us all.  The other thing is whether somebody wanted to do this

19    themselves or whether this was somebody's idea.  I mean, this is very sad.

20    And for a while, after that, I really couldn't collect myself.

21       Q.   You referred to people being buried that day.  Just for

22    clarification purposes, sir, what are you referring to when you talk about

23    people being buried that day in Srebrenica?

24       A.   I think that on the 11th of July was the 11th anniversary of the

25    fall of Srebrenica so I was present at the commemoration.  This is what I

Page 3538

 1    was referring to, the people who were buried on that day, the 11th

 2    anniversary of the fall.

 3       Q.   Now, sir, I want to play you some video clips, they are all

 4    contained in the trial video, P02047.  The first clip begins I believe at

 5    02.37.42 and just to let you know, sir, we'll be jumping in and out of

 6    private session as we show you the clips.

 7                          [Videotape played]

 8            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, if we may go into private session.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session for a short while,

10    please.

11                          [Private session]

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25                          [Open session]

Page 3539

 1            MR. THAYER:  And the next clip begins at 2 hours 50 minutes 15

 2    [sic] seconds.

 3                          [Videotape played]

 4            MR. THAYER:

 5       Q.   Sir, we are at --

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment because we need to correct either what

 7    you said or what the transcript says.  In line 5, page 70, it says you're

 8    reported as saying and the next clip begins at 2 hours 50 minutes 15

 9    seconds.  It actually started much before that and it ends at 2 minutes

10    50 -- 2 hours 50 minutes 18.5 seconds.  So you need to state exactly when

11    it started.

12            MR. THAYER:  I can do that, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  It was 2.48 or 49 or something like that.

14            MR. THAYER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Ms. Stewart to the rescue again, 2

15    hours 49 minutes and 12 seconds was the actual start time of the clip.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

17            MR. THAYER:

18       Q.   Sir again we are looking at the time of 2 hours 50 minutes 18.5

19    seconds.  Do you see anything in this image and the seconds preceding it

20    that you have testified about previously to the Trial Chamber?

21       A.   I see an UNPROFOR helmet.  I saw the UNPROFOR helmet.

22            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness's other microphone be turned

23    on, please?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This helmet is identical as the ones

25    we saw from the woods when they were patrolling in the APC.

Page 3540

 1                          [Videotape played]

 2            MR. THAYER:

 3       Q.   Sir, you're being shown an image at 2 hours 50 minutes 43.4

 4    seconds.  Do you recognise what's in this image?

 5       A.   Yes.  I recognise the tank which was, as I explained, on my left

 6    side as you came to the meadow.  That is the tank.

 7                          [Videotape played]

 8            MR. THAYER:

 9       Q.   If we may go into private session, Your Honour?

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session for a short while,

11    please.

12                          [Private session]

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3541

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4                          [Open session]

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 6            MR. THAYER:

 7       Q.   Sir, do you see an image at 2 hours 51 minutes 2.7 seconds.  There

 8    is a white structure to the right of the screen.  Do you recognise what

 9    that structure was from the few seconds that preceded this particular

10    clip?

11       A.   That could be perhaps the house that we all passed by.  I also

12    recognise the bags, the rucksacks.  There were a lot of them next to the

13    house on the asphalt.

14       Q.   Just so the record is clear, sir, it may be a translation issue,

15    it indicates that you testified that this could be the house.  Are you

16    uncertain about that or are you clear?

17       A.   To tell you the truth, from this angle I'm not quite sure.  You

18    can hardly see anything.  All I can recognise are the bags.  There were a

19    lot of such bags next to the house.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's see the preceding stills at least or -- if we

21    can see anything.

22                          [Videotape played]

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  That is the house.  I've

24    now looked at it a little better.

25                          [Videotape played]

Page 3542

 1            MR. THAYER:

 2       Q.   May we move moo private session, Your Honour, please?

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go back to private session again, please.

 4                          [Private session]

5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19                          [Open session]

20                          [Videotape played]

21            MR. THAYER:

22       Q.   Sir, at 2 hours, 51 minutes 29.2 seconds you're being shown an

23    image in the foreground there is a soldier with a weapon over his right

24    shoulder.  Do you recognise anything that this soldier is wearing?

25       A.   Yes.  I recognise in this case the UNPROFOR flak jacket.  It's

Page 3543

 1    from UNPROFOR.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3                          [Videotape played]

 4            MR. THAYER:  At 2 hours 51 seconds -- 51 minutes, 38.2 seconds.

 5    There is a group of men that are to the right of that image.  Do you see

 6    that on the screen?  There is a man in blue in the forefront but to the

 7    right of the image there are some men that are also depicted.  Do you see

 8    that, sir.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Just for the record to be clear, can you describe approximately

11    where those men are located in terms of when you came out of the woods and

12    were walking to the house?

13       A.   This is at the beginning, at the incline that I was talking about,

14    and I can see that there were more people as he was filming them.  When I

15    was passing there were two of them but that is that spot.  When you come

16    out, then there is that small incline, and then you encounter them.

17                          [Videotape played]

18            MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, if we may go into private session,

19    please.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session, please.

21                          [Private session]

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 3544











11    Page 3544 redacted. Private session.















Page 3545

 1    (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back in open session.

12            MR. THAYER:  With the Court's indulgence we are actually cutting

13    out an image to save some time.  We are going to move to a different one.

14                          [Videotape played]

15            MR. THAYER:  May I just ask is this transmitting?  No?  Okay.

16                          [Videotape played]

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's specify where we are straight away.

18            MR. THAYER:  Beginning at 2 hours 39 minutes and 21 seconds.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please proceed.

20                          [Videotape played]

21            MR. THAYER:

22       Q.   Sir we are at 2 hours 39 minutes 45.3 seconds.  Do you recognise

23    the two individuals in this image?

24       A.   Yes.  These are the two that I mentioned in my testimony earlier,

25    they were after the first two soldiers.  They were sitting and I said that

Page 3546

 1    they also asked for money.  I remember well that I noticed the emblem on

 2    his left sleeve, the coat of arms.  I also recognised him by the

 3    bandoliers.

 4                          [Videotape played]

 5            MR. THAYER:

 6       Q.   And again, sir, at 02 hours 39 minutes 54.2 seconds, do you

 7    recognise what's depicted in that image?

 8       A.   Here we can see the meadow I talked about.  This is the meadow

 9    where I was.  These are the people I was talking about.

10            MR. THAYER:  If we may just move into private session just one

11    last time, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move into private session.

13                          [Private session]

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Page 3547

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18                          [Open session]

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay we are in open session.

20            MR. THAYER:

21       Q.   Sir, you testified that you discovered that your father was also

22    at the meadow when you were passing out water to the prisoners.  Did you

23    ever see your father again after giving him a drink of water that day?

24       A.   That was the last time I saw my father.  I never saw him again.

25    What I regret most is that he was wounded, maybe they made him suffer

Page 3548

 1    although he was wounded.  I don't know what happened to him.  I never

 2    found out.

 3       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  One moment.  I need to consult

 5    with my colleagues.

 6                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  That is a minor technical problem that we can

 9    bypass.

10            Witness, we are now to start with the cross-examinations.  That

11    means the various Defence teams will take it in turn and put questions to

12    you.  Can we start now or do you wish to have a break?  Basically we have

13    only got seven minutes left today.  How are you feeling?  Are you feeling

14    in a way that we can --

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can -- yes, Your Honour, we can

16    continue.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then Mr. Zivanovic, who is appearing for

18    Colonel Popovic in this case, will start with his cross-examination.  And

19    he will continue tomorrow obviously.

20            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21                          Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

22       Q.   Good afternoon.

23       A.   Good afternoon.

24       Q.   In your testimony here, you said that Srebrenica was constantly

25    shelled until the 10th of July.  Could you please clarify whether this

Page 3549

 1    means that it was also shelled on the 10th of July or only up to that

 2    date?

 3       A.   When the shelling began, it never stopped until the morning of the

 4    11th.  On the morning of the 11th, as I said, everything was quiet and one

 5    had the impression that the madness was about to stop.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Could we go into private session for a moment?

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go back to private session, please.

 8                          [Private session]

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16                          [Open session]

17            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

18       Q.   That part of Srebrenica where the petrol station is and the

19    UNPROFOR base was, is that called Kazan?

20       A.   No.  It borders with that place.  The petrol station is there and

21    Kazani begins across the road from the petrol station.  And then goes on.

22    So it's all in the vicinity.

23       Q.   Just tell me how far is Kazan from the UNPROFOR base in

24    Srebrenica?

25       A.   Well, it's adjacent to it, because it's adjacent to that fence

Page 3551

 1    where UNPROFOR was.

 2            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  You mean for today or --

 4            MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions at

 5    all.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  You've finished your cross-examination.  All right.

 7            I don't think there is much sense in starting the next one if we

 8    only have one minute left so we'll give you a break now, sir.  You need to

 9    come back again tomorrow morning at 9.00 and I suppose that within an hour

10    or so we'll finish your cross-examination and you will be free to go back.

11    I thank you and we'll meet again tomorrow morning.

12                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of

14                          November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.