1 Tuesday, 21 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Registrar, could you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you, too. I see
9 that everyone is here except Mr. Bourgon, as per agreed. The Prosecution
10 is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.
11 I understand that there are some preliminaries you need to have
12 dealt with.
13 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I just wanted
15 to inform you that the Defence of General Miletic joins the Defence of
16 Popovic regarding intercepts, regarding the application made yesterday by
17 the Popovic Defence.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
19 Any other Defence team?
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. We
21 join, and we also made a filing yesterday afternoon formally sharing the
22 arguments as well.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That, I'm aware of. All right.
24 Anything else? Mr. Lazarevic.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: The Defence of Borovcanin would also join
1 Mr. Popovic's Defence in this motion.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of the Defence team wants to stay neutral on
3 this or disassociate itself? Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: We take no position, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You take no position.
6 MR. HAYNES: We stay neutral, yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You stay neutral.
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We are also going to remain neutral
9 on this matter. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we've covered everyone, I think; no? Yes, we've
11 covered everyone.
12 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have known that many of
14 the Defences would be challenging the intercepts so that we are -- as any
15 evidence, we will be putting on evidence of their authenticity and their
16 basic chain of custody. I don't believe the Defence, in their motion, are
17 suggesting they have some special legal defence or something of that sort,
18 because, of course, if they did, we should have heard from that long ago.
19 I think they're just talking about basic authentication, basic
20 reliability, as they've stated in the rules. So I think we are all on the
21 same page with that. I don't see or hear any special legal defences or
22 anything like that, and I'm sure we are too late for that. But that's our
23 understanding, and we are fine with that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic?
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honour, I don't,
1 respectfully, agree with the Prosecutor. In fact, yesterday or the day
2 before, we received proofing notes regarding this particular witness and
3 new evidence has come forth in connection with whether or not that
4 evidence, indeed, is reliable and authentic. The Prosecutor was kind
5 enough, as is his duty, to share with us that there were alterations and
6 modifications made to certain intercepts, particularly those that involve
7 my client on a certain date that he may testify to.
8 So I don't believe that the issue is necessarily an old one. I
9 think it's ripe for discussion now. However, we thought for the
10 efficiency of the trial that we'll hear the evidence and then bring forth
11 the arguments, as the Popovic Defence team, in their motion, suggested.
12 After you hear all the evidence, it might be a better way to decide
13 whether the evidence should be accepted or not, and if, at all, it is
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
16 Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. McCloskey?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it may just be a difference of
18 view-point. I don't see any new evidence or anything new, and I don't see
19 alterations. But, of course, we are sharing with the Defence what
20 specifics we learned and how these intercepts are developed, and you'll
21 see the drafts and how the changes become final and all that. And, of
22 course, the Defence views those as alterations; we view them as the
23 process. And we look forward to that disagreement.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.
25 May I just point out something which is strictly procedural, and
1 my idea is to draw your attention to it. My colleagues and I are
2 absolutely ignorant as regards the content of the evidence that we will be
3 receiving on these intercepts, and we are also not in a position to know,
4 because that's the system we have adopted, whether, on one particular
5 intercept, there will be just one witness or several witnesses.
6 Like you said, we haven't got an idea on what the various Defence
7 teams are now, or will later be, basing their objection to the
8 admissibility of these intercepts. Of course, as with other things, these
9 are pleasures yet to come and we will be able to take that in due
10 consideration, as it arises.
11 However, may I just make sure to draw your attention to the second
12 paragraph, subparagraph, paragraph (H) of Rule 90, which deals with a
13 special function or responsibility that you have and that you carry as
14 Defence counsel. It's a legacy of the common law tradition; namely, that
15 in cross-examining a witness who is in a position -- "who is able to give
16 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall
17 put to that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that
18 counsel appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the
20 I'm drawing your attention to this because the consequence of
21 failure to attend to this may, although it need not necessarily always
22 lead to that conclusion, one of the consequences may be that there would
23 be a prohibition, later on, on you to raise the matter if you have not
24 contested it with the witness during the cross-examination. It's not an
25 absolute rule. It admits of exceptions. But I think we are in an area
1 where we should alert you to this rule, which is, most of the time,
2 neglected both by some Trial Chambers and by counsel alike.
3 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could just briefly give you a little road
5 map, without arguing any of the substantive matters, Mr. President.
6 We have many intercept operators and they are here basically to
7 establish the authenticity, the credibility, the system by which was in
8 place. We will start with supervisors and we will then get to the
9 individual intercept operators who took intercepts related to the accused,
10 as I'm sure you're familiar with. So these intercept operators many times
11 don't know anything about the substance, and so we are not going to be
12 asking them to analyse or evaluate any of the substance, though I'm sure
13 you'll recognise names and things. That, of course, will come later with
14 witnesses, with experts, in that regard.
15 Now, we have just, about a half an hour ago, received a request
16 from one of the Defence counsel for several original notebooks, which
17 you'll be learning about, that they want to use in cross-examination. We
18 are getting those for them, though it's a little late, but hopefully we
19 will be able to get them before cross.
20 Now, this first witness is a supervisor of one of the areas. He
21 has basically one intercept that's part of our evidence, so he'll just be
22 talking about one intercept. But as the supervisor for a larger unit,
23 it's probably fair that he is open for cross-examination, to some degree,
24 about other intercepts that were taken under his watch.
25 Now, you can imagine the mathematical computations of that, if
1 each witness is asked about other intercepts from the ones that they did
2 themselves seven times, so we may need a bit more organisation on the part
3 of everyone to keep that in an area that doesn't keep us here forever. I
4 don't see it as a problem, but we'll wait and do it and see how it comes
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you for that. Of course, you
7 will have all the cooperation of the Trial Chamber.
8 May I just also remind you that when we were discussing the
9 question of admitting these intercepts and also the testimony of some of
10 the witnesses given in previous cases, having already been put on notice
11 by all of you that intercepts were basically something that you were going
12 to contest, in due course, we made sure that all these witnesses will be
13 present here to give testimony and be available for cross-examination,
14 because that gives you an indication that you will, of course, receive all
15 the necessary understanding and cooperation that both sides require in
16 dealing with this delicate part of the trial.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, we fully understood your
18 holding in that regard. We did go through our collection of intercepts we
19 intended to use and we did find some that, under your ruling, would go to
20 acts or conduct, and so we've had to get and track down the intercept
21 operators that go to those intercepts. That is going to be a motion, kind
22 of, identifying them, that we'll need to call them, too, so that these
23 intercepts that potentially go to acts or conduct are covered by the
24 appropriate witness so they can be cross-examined. So that ruling, we
25 understand it, but we do need to bring in few more people as a result.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Incidentally, how long do you anticipate this
2 witness, this first witness, to be testifying in chief?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm hoping two or three hours, but these guys tend
4 to get into technical stuff that I will try to stop, because I don't
5 understand it. But if -- I don't think more than about two or three
6 hours, Your Honour. I'm hoping I can do it in three hours. But it
7 really -- we'll see how he talks. I haven't done this particular witness
8 before, so I'm not sure. But about three hours is probably a good idea.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And is there a first estimate on the part of the
10 Defence teams?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Thank you,
12 Mr. President. I think that our cross-examination would take about an
13 hour and a half.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: 45 minutes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] About 20 minutes. Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, 20 to 30 minutes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] An hour, roughly.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: 20 minutes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Sarapa.
25 MR. SARAPA: Ten minutes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ten minutes?
2 MR. SARAPA: Ten minutes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Today is Tuesday, so we'll have the
4 whole of tomorrow; that's Wednesday. Could you also, during the first
5 break, try to give the registrar, please, an estimate of the witness to
6 follow. The reason is the following: That Friday, we'll have a Status
7 Conference in the other case at 9.00. We have shifted the time because we
8 need to have a 65 ter meeting at 8.00, enabling us to start that Status
9 Conference at 9.00. Since then, the technicians will require 30 minutes
10 to change, swap tapes, et cetera, we'll start this case at 10.00 on
12 If that witness who will be testifying on Friday will, in any
13 case, continue testifying on -- finish or continue his testimony on
14 Monday, then we will stop on Friday at the regular time of 1.45. If there
15 is a good chance of finishing with his testimony and sending him home on
16 Friday, our idea was that at 1.45, we'll have a short break and then we
17 will continue again -- we'll have a 30-minute break and then we will
18 continue and finish with his testimony. That was the -- but finishing
19 with his testimony. I did not have in mind having a full afternoon
20 session. I mean, we are talking of maybe half an hour, three-quarters of
21 an hour, but a maximum of one hour and that's about it.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one final thing: The first two witnesses,
24 the second witness, unfortunately, is the headquarters witness that has
25 the big picture, but because of scheduling and flights and things, he has
1 to go second. The first witness is a supervisor witness. So we'll get
2 the big picture -- the smaller picture before we get the big picture, but
3 it shouldn't --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But, anyway, give us a bird's eye view, more or
5 less, what you expect; and if your expectations are, maybe after
6 consultations with the Defence team, that this person will still be with
7 us on Monday, then we don't need to go beyond what is basically required
8 of us and we'll stop at 1.45.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: The plan for this first witness is full question
10 and answers. The second witness is partially 92 ter based on some
11 evidence to try to save some time. And then most of the intercept
12 operators, the actual soldiers, we hope to do 92 ter and maybe talk a bit
13 about their individual intercepts, but then try to save as much time as we
14 can in that regard. That's the plan.
15 This first witness, I agreed with the Defence that -- well, I
16 partially agreed with a couple of the Defences that his prior-to-war
17 experience I can read out in a leading way, but they would prefer that
18 when I get to the wartime experience, I go question and answer. So that's
19 fine. That's the way we'll do it.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. This is delicate terrain, so I
21 mean, the more you agree amongst yourselves, the better it is.
22 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Sorry
24 to turn up like a bad penny, but we've got some business left over from
25 yesterday and it's at the Court's pleasure whether to do it now or later.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do it now. The tendering of documents, I
3 MR. THAYER: That's correct.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, we just have two items. The first is
6 P02294, the pseudonym sheet; the second is P02295, and that is the SJB
7 document which was the subject of discussion both on direct and
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? None? All right. They are so
11 Now, Defence teams. Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Our Defence would like to propose
15 three exhibits: One is the order of the public security centre in
16 Bijeljina of the 14th of July, 1995, we marked as 4D00062. Then the
17 report by the public security centre of Zvornik of the 15th of July, 1995,
18 and that is Exhibit, on 65 ter list, number 4DP00063, or, because it has
19 two markings, 4D500913. And the third document is a statement by (redacted)
21 (redacted) that we marked as 4D0063. And just to inform the Trial
22 Chamber that the translations of these two documents are now ready and are
23 already entered into the system. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's go into private session for a
25 short while.
1 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the last of these documents will go
21 under seal. Mr. Stojanovic, you mentioned also one document which has a P
22 number and also A4D number. It's the second one.
23 Registrar, I need your guidance here.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't remain 4D. This is what I wanted to -- all
1 right? So it has to be given the proper protocol number that we have
2 agreed and put in place for Defence exhibits that are also a Prosecution
4 Any objections for the tendering of these -- for the admission of
5 these three witnesses, Mr. Thayer?
6 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And no objections from the rest of the
8 Defence teams? They are so admitted.
9 Any further documents you wish to tender as exhibits? None?
10 Mr. Thayer, I thank you so much.
11 Can we bring in the next witness? I think you need to pull down
12 the curtains.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm reminded that this person has a
14 voice -- do you mind if I sit down again?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Not at all, no at all.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And that applies to any of the Defence teams,
18 particularly those who have an imposing stature.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
23 start giving evidence in this Srebrenica II case.
24 Our rules require that before you do so, you enter a solemn -- you
25 make a solemn declaration with us that, in the course of your testimony,
1 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
2 truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of this the solemn
3 declaration. Please read it out and that will be your solemn undertaking
4 with us.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-132 [Closed Session]
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the new witness has been admitted
7 into the courtroom. He will be testifying under a pseudonym. He will be
8 referred to as Prosecution Witness 132. He also has been granted two
9 further protective measures, namely, voice and facial distortion. He's
10 taken the oath; he's made the solemn undertaking to testify the truth.
11 Mr. McCloskey is about to start his examination-in-chief.
12 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Witness, I have received permission to sit down so that I can make
15 sure I will turn off the mike during our questioning.
16 Now, I first want to go over some background information, and if
17 you can tell me if -- whether or not what I'm saying is true: (redacted)
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We are in open session.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, so let's go back to closed
22 session -- to private session.
23 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned ham radios. Do ham radios have any
4 mechanical difference than, say, military radios? And can you just give
5 us a general idea, if there is any difference at all.
6 A. In principle, there is no difference. Of course, slight
7 differences do exist, which their own name denotes. Ham radio operators
8 work on machinery that is different to that used by the military, given
9 the scope of their activity, although there are machines that are quite
10 similar, by virtue of their technical features.
11 The military equipment, however, is produced for quite specific
12 purposes and weather conditions. They have to meet the most extreme of
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. If we -- I want to go back to your personal
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go back into private for a bit.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session, please.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 4268-4273 redacted.Private session
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. All right. Witness, when you started work, did your work pretty
24 much stay the same through the end of the war, at the location where you
1 A. Yes. I performed the same duties as in the unit previously. I
2 performed the same duties throughout the war until I got out of the
3 military service.
4 Q. And we'll get into the specifics of that a bit later, but was the
5 job you were doing at one site roughly the same job that was going on at
6 the other site?
7 A. Yes, sir, that's right.
8 Q. All right. We better go into private session for a while.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's do that. Private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 4276-4280 redacted.Private session
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Now, I'd like for you to continue describing the general process
1 that you got pursuant to orders, and after we're through with the general
2 process, I'll ask you for your specific orders for July 1995, and then
3 we'll go through the process more specifically. But can you continue your
4 explanation of the general process. You said that you directed the
5 antenna to receive certain areas and you would receive certain
6 information. Then what?
7 A. Yes. If we leave out the orders, our routine work was, once we
8 found a certain direction or a certain location that we were looking for,
9 that we would find the frequencies, in both types of equipment; then we
10 would search for the participants. We would let the equipment intensively
11 scan; some we would scan manually.
12 Q. We'll get into details about that. But, okay, after scanning,
13 what's next?
14 A. Oh, I'm sorry, I only stopped because of the interpretation, to
15 give time.
16 After we finished scanning, then the participants would appear,
17 the important conversations would appear, the secret names we would
18 expecting, and then we would continue with the work that we were
19 essentially doing.
20 First, what we would do when we found a conversation is to stop
21 the scanner; then we would press pause -- depress pause and then we would
22 begin to record the conversation. There was an operator for that set or
23 the two sets. He would have the headphones in the same way that I have
24 them now, and the conversation would be recorded to the end.
25 The operator, if it was an easy, short conversation, without a lot
1 of information, could, even in the course of the conversation, note down
2 some things. But what he has to write down at the beginning of every
3 conversation, on a piece of paper, at the side, would be the time, the
4 frequency, and the channel. This information would be used later when
5 transcribing the conversation from the tape to a hard copy.
6 When that part of the work was complete, when the conversation was
7 finished, the operator would switch off the UHER, and then if there was
8 some other activities, he would transfer it to the next conversation. He
9 would move the set to the next set, unless the other set was already doing
10 this work, and then he would begin to transcribe the audio version to the
11 written, hard copy form.
12 So that was the essence of the work that we were doing. The
13 operators had very trained ears. They were used to different kinds of
14 noise; they were used to the voices of the officers that they were
15 monitoring throughout that time-period. They, themselves, had their own
16 routine information which helped them to do this work without too much
18 It wasn't always easy, however, to transcribe a conversation.
19 Sometimes you would have interference, something unclear, interruptions,
20 unclear words, all kinds of things. And in such cases, a conversation had
21 to be listened to several times, several times again, even up to ten
22 times. Sometimes we would all gather around and try to see what one word
23 actually was, and believe me, sometimes we didn't succeed in this. We
24 would have to put dots. We wouldn't know what was actually being said in
25 such cases.
1 Sometimes it would happen that people kept replaying the tapes,
2 like DJs. Essentially, when you were transcribing a conversation, you
3 would transcribe two to five -- three to five words, depending on how much
4 a person could remember, but always only as much as you were able to play
5 back the tape by hand; then you would press pause again and then you would
6 replay the tape to see if he was sure about what he had heard, and so on
7 and so forth. That was how we transcribed the material.
8 Q. And, generally, after it's transcribed, what happens to the
9 material? I'm going to take you through this in more detail with examples
10 of the specific equipment involved, but can you tell us, generally, after
11 the conversation gets transcribed in this way, what happens to the
13 A. I'm sorry, Your Honours, I went back to that time. I was just
14 feeling the way I felt at the time.
15 When we transcribed the conversations, we would use the term
16 "skidanje razgovora," taking down the conversation. That was the term
17 that we used. It would refer to the crypto protection room. That's where
18 it would be typed into a computer. The person who brought the message
19 would read it to the person who was operating the encryption equipment,
20 and that's how this would be done. Then grammatical corrections would be
21 entered, nothing more than that.
22 This was the preparation of the text, to put it in a report to our
23 command. That was the form it was sent in to the command. This was the
24 material. Essentially, the material that was brought in was just a draft
25 for something that would later become an official document.
1 Q. Can you briefly tell us how, if time or any other information was
2 noted in this process, the time of the conversation?
3 A. Time, channel, and later the participants were entered once the
4 conversation was transcribed. These were entered as the title. This was
5 the information that had been entered on that piece of paper.
6 This was a condition to begin transcribing the conversation,
7 because next to that information there was always a number entered, and
8 that number was the counter number on the UHER recorder. It would usually
9 be put on zero. I say zero, because if the conversation -- if there was
10 more than one conversation, it wouldn't be zero. So if it was one
11 conversation, it would go from zero to a certain number; then would you go
12 to that and transcribe it from there. The date would be entered by the
13 computer automatically, in the heading of the report. We submitted
14 reports every day, and as far as I know, the date was automatically
15 entered by the computer at the beginning of each report.
16 Q. Okay. As I said, we'll go through the different machines in more
17 detail. We have a break in a few minutes. But let me take you back to
18 early July 1995. Can you tell us, as best you can recall, what were your
19 orders, in terms of where were you supposed to be listening? And, as
20 you've described before, what orders did you get regarding that
22 A. Relying on my notebook, and you have copies of that document, all
23 the parties present here have it, the last order that was issued on the
24 8th of June, 1995, says: "Direct the antennas in the direction of those
25 towns." There is a river also that is mentioned, and also a frequency is
1 mentioned, that it will no longer be that particular frequency but another
2 one that our command would provide. There was also a note based on
3 electronic reconnaissance that I had previously provided.
4 Also, in the field, there was another recommendation for another
5 relay station, and there were some other frequencies from that relay
6 device that were made available to us. And we were supposed to scan
7 others, if there were any. As for the first relay frequencies, we would
8 need to find an active station, with participants that we were interested
9 in, and we were supposed to begin our work.
10 Q. Do you recall which towns, if any, were mentioned in this order?
11 You mentioned towns.
12 A. Yes. Zvornik, Vlasenica, and the River Drina were mentioned.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This might be a good time to take a break.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are in open session. We'll have a
15 30-minute break, starting from now. Thank you.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, I notice the presence of
19 Mr. Vanderpuye amongst the Prosecution team.
20 Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed. Thank you. We are in open
21 session, by the way.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned at the break that your orders were to
24 listen in the direction of Zvornik, Vlasenica and the River Drina. Was
25 this a geographic area that, prior to July of 1995, you had had experience
1 listening to?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And can you tell us, just roughly, where was your zone of
4 listening? Where did you folks spend most of your time listening in 1995?
5 A. We listened mostly to that area, the area of the Drina Corps.
6 There were other orders, and we listened to Ozren. The two, actually, we
7 listened to most of the time.
8 Q. You mentioned the Drina Corps. So you were aware of that
9 particular enemy corps, I take it. So what other structure did you --
10 were you trained about or did you learn about, about the VRS in this area,
11 during this general time-frame? What I mean is, can you briefly, without
12 a lot of detail, what did you know about the Drina Corps, what unit it
13 belonged to, that sort of thing?
14 A. The Drina Corps was made up of several brigades. Firstly, we knew
15 that the headquarters of the Drina Corps was at Vlasenica, and that the
16 brigades making up the Drina Corps was Zvornik Brigade, Bratunac Brigade,
17 Milici Brigade, Vlasenica Brigade, Sekovici Brigade.
18 Q. And were there other brigades?
19 A. Yes. There were brigades from other corps, and there were other
20 corps -- or actually, there was the Main Staff, the Supreme Staff, of the
21 army of Republika Srpska at Han Pijesak. Thus, we had a map on which
22 persons from OPP plotted these axes and frequencies on the axes of the
23 relay radio sets of the brigades, the stations, as they were called.
24 Q. Okay. You said people from OPP helped you identify frequencies, I
25 take it. What's OPP?
1 A. Oh, yes, I apologise, the operations centre, which was stationed
2 at the headquarters of our brigade, and our brigade command was stationed
3 at the headquarters of the 2nd Corps.
4 Q. Okay. And when you say -- your unit, was your unit a brigade
5 or -- we may be getting into translation issues. What would you call your
6 electronic warfare unit?
7 A. My unit, when it was deployed to its site, was called the platoon,
8 whereas the unit stationed at the command and of which my unit was a part
9 was the company, the Anti-Electronic Warfare Company.
10 Q. All right. Now, did you become familiar with any personalities,
11 their voices, from the Main Staff or the Drina Corps, during the
12 time-period you were listening to their radio transmissions?
13 A. Well, you know, sir, when someone introduces himself to you ten or
14 100 times, you should be able to tell that that's that person the next
15 time. They don't need to introduce themselves.
16 Q. Did that actually happen at high levels, where the enemy officers
17 would actually do that over the open airways?
18 A. Yes. It was precisely to that doctrine that they stuck, that they
19 should not be introducing themselves by their names and that they should
20 not reveal their locations. And they would, themselves, go against that
21 same procedure and end up introducing themselves as well as the secret
22 location, and we were there to catch these moments.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have 65 ter 2067 on the screen, when
25 we get it.
1 Q. You mentioned, I think -- I think you said "secret location."
2 Were there any VRS code-names for locations that you were able to learn as
3 you listened to these transmissions?
4 A. Yes. There were code-names, like, for instance, Panorama, Zlatar,
5 Palma, and such like. There was a certain Badem.
6 Q. Okay. Have you in the past drawn up a list of some of those
7 code-names that you and your unit came to know?
8 A. Yes. This is the list that we ourselves had up in the unit. We
9 had one such list that was provided to us by our command.
10 Q. Okay. And you're looking at 65 ter 2067. So when you say
11 Panorama, Zlatar, Palma, Badem, for example, can you tell us, as far as
12 you know, were these the code-names in place in July and August of 1995?
13 A. Yes. They used precisely these names.
14 Q. Shouldn't they have -- been supposed to change those at a frequent
15 basis for normal radio practice?
16 A. Excuse me, sir, but you should ask them that question.
17 Q. I probably should have asked you: How often do they change their
18 code-names around this July period?
19 A. Not that often, or almost never.
20 Q. Okay. Can you give us an example of some of the officers who you
21 got used to listening to that introduced themselves over the airways?
22 A. Yes. I remember, for instance, Mr. Jokic introducing himself. I
23 remember Zivanovic introducing himself, or someone addressing him. Also,
24 one colonel, I know that he was addressed by someone else who was looking
25 after him. He was quite upset for not having got in touch with him. So
1 there were many such examples of people introducing themselves. They even
2 addressed one another by nicknames sometimes.
3 Q. All right. Now, let me take you to more specifics of your work so
4 we can understand some of that.
5 My first question would be, you know, how many rooms did the
6 actual intercepting take part in, where the machines were that you
8 A. If I understand you well, in how many rooms did we have the
9 machines we worked with? Well, we had one room where we had these
10 intercepting sets.
11 Q. Can you tell me how many sets you have, and then we'll get into
12 explaining what is in a set in a more detail. But basically -- sorry, let
13 me ask you this question: How many transmissions or conversations could
14 you record at any one time? What was your maximum?
15 A. Four conversations could be recorded at one time.
16 Q. And how many could be received at one time for recording, if you
17 understand what I mean?
18 A. I apologise, but I don't understand the question.
19 Q. I'm sorry. How many -- first of all, how many sets of
20 receiving/recording set-ups did you have in this one room?
21 A. Yes, now I understand. Four sets, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Now, in July 1995, especially between the time-period of
23 July 6th through about July 20th, can you describe to us how busy the
24 airways were that you were listening to in this area that you've
25 described? And I think a good way to do it is, in a time-period of,
1 roughly, five to ten minutes, can you tell us, on an average - and I know
2 this is rough - but during this busy time, at between five and ten
3 minutes, how many transmission conversations would you hear, not record,
4 but would you actually be aware of were being received, you know, by your
6 A. The time-period you referred to was, indeed, one where the
7 conversations were numerous. The airways were busy and there were
8 communications on several channels. On average, that time-period was
9 never exceeded; and if it was, then the conversations would be taped one
10 after another. If it so happened that we would be recording all of these
11 conversations simultaneously, then we might have missed something.
12 Q. But can you tell me, in a time-period of five to ten minutes, what
13 would be a busy number, for you, of conversations that would be received,
14 so we -- just so we can get an idea of what busy is, if you know, if you
15 can tell us?
16 A. Normally, in such a period of time, there would have occurred one
17 conversation, possibly two.
18 Q. One or two conversations every how many minutes?
19 A. Every five to ten minutes. That was when the airways were at
20 their busiest.
21 Q. Okay. And so during the busy time, when you had these four sets
22 in one room, how many men would be on duty dealing with those sets?
23 A. Two men were enough to work or handle two sets. Where such need
24 arose, all of us would be there, and there were six or seven of us at the
25 time. There could have been more of us even, because the earlier order
1 says that two groups of five or six persons each should overlap; that they
2 should have eight working days, followed by four rest days. All of this
3 you can find in my notes that I gave you.
4 Q. And when you say that, you're talking about your notebook that you
5 were using at the time of the event.
6 A. Yes, sir. Believe me, I used the notebook to facilitate my work.
7 I didn't know that it was going to have any significance at a later date.
8 All the official documents should be in the possession of my command, of
9 my headquarters, and they should be able to send them over.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, I'd just like to know whether you
11 will be going into this, but the description of what kinds of machines we
12 are talking about; whether they each had its own independent scanning
13 facility and whether the recording facility was incorporated, or whether
14 there was just one scanning apparatus and then various recording machines
15 attached to it. I don't know what. Perhaps you can ask the witness,
16 unless you have this already prepared, in the pipeline.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, there is a pipeline, Your Honour. I have
18 pictures --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I'll leave it to you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I do want to get to that pipeline.
21 Q. Okay. Another just general issue on working these machines.
22 These men in these shifts, did they travel to and from this mountain top
23 daily, or did they stay there?
24 A. Yes. We had ten-day shifts, which meant that once every ten days,
25 we would come up to the location and ten days later we would leave the
1 location. That was the rotation of the shifts, if you like.
2 Q. Okay. If they are ten-day shifts, how many hours in a day would
3 the average operator work?
4 A. One operator could work eight hours at the most, and normally not
5 in succession. It all depended on how busy the airways were.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to 65 ter 1925, and just let me
8 know when that comes up.
9 Q. Okay. Now I want to take you to the specifics and the specific
10 machines, what they could do and how they were used. Let me start out the
11 question by -- first, you've mentioned that the antennas get directed.
12 Can you tell us, where were those antennas located?
13 A. The antennas you refer to were mounted outside the building on a
14 site some 4 to 5 metres away. There were antenna posts somewhere around
15 the corner of the building. And this is where the room, the intercepting
16 room, was located in the building.
17 Q. All right. Well, we now have on the screen 65 ter 1925, and if
18 you could take that little pen again - I don't know where it's hiding -
19 but take a look at this, and we see at least two, three, boxes on this
20 screen. Could you identify, in order of relevance, each machine by
21 drawing the number on them and telling us, you know, in basic terms, what
22 that machine does.
23 A. Yes. I will take the following order: As the signal reached the
24 device, which I will now circle from the antenna we spoke about, this
25 would be the machine number 1, which is of Japanese make, ICOM ICR-100,
1 which is a broadband amateur receiver which could receive three types of
2 signals - amplitude, narrow-band FM and broadband FM. In this case, we
3 used broadband FM, which was the RRU-800 or FM-200.
4 The signal went from this machine into a converter or a mixer.
5 This is the machine number 2 I've just circled. The task of this machine
6 was that the signals received by the receiver from the relay radio
7 frequency, to receive these signals that were modulated with the upper and
8 lower USB and LSB transmission. This is an amplitude from which only one
9 band was selected. Out of these signals, or rather, the converter either
10 increased the frequency or reduced it. In this case, it increased it to a
11 higher level so that the machine number 3 could receive the signal.
12 Now, what is this all about? The machine number 3, which I will
13 now mark, this is the Kent receiver, TS-450 is the make, and I apologise
14 if I mix it up with TS-650. They are very similar and the difference is
15 only in the number. So it can be a mono-bander. Let's say it's 450-S.
16 This is a device that can receive several types of modulations, and the
17 frequency scope is from 30 kilohertz as far as the receiving functions are
18 concerned, because I wouldn't -- I don't want to speak about the
19 transmitting scope. In order to receive signals below the 30 hertz, we
20 had to raise them to a level that would be above zero so that this other
21 machine could receive them and so that we could have all the necessary
23 Q. Okay. Now, can you just, very simply, tell us, machine number 3,
24 what basically could it do with the signals coming from number 2, the
1 A. It would scan the frequencies. When we got a ready signal from
2 zero to 150 kilohertz, because a characteristic of the military UNF
3 devices like that, this device had the option of receiving signals of the
4 upper USB range and the lower LSB range also. We modulated the channels,
5 for example, that had 12K connections, and the order they were in there,
6 from one to 12, with one range; then the second set would come with
7 another 12 channels, with a different range from the first device. So if
8 the first device had USB transmission, the second one would have LSB
9 transmission, and this is how they alternated.
10 Q. Okay. So is machine number 3 able to scan various radio
11 transmissions that you guys have aimed your aerials at?
12 A. It could do even more than that, but we needed two lateral ranges,
13 USB and LSB. If the frequency characteristic was too narrow on the
14 transceiver itself, we had the option of choosing filters to bring it up
15 so that we could make the signals clearer. If it was the case that there
16 was a lot of noise and interference, we would use filters of narrower
17 characteristics so that we would clear the hum from the signal. And the
18 device was quite able to do what we needed it to do. It was a
19 satisfactory device.
20 Q. Okay. So if number 3 is scanning the transmissions, that means
21 it's looking for transmissions, looking for conversations; right?
22 A. Yes, it was scanning the channels. And usually - this was not
23 necessarily so, but it did happen usually - we could also hear some sort
24 of a sound in the frequency carrier in this first device, the ICOM. We
25 could hear some trace of something happening, that there should be a
1 channel active somewhere there, with the exception of one thing: We could
2 not then hear that a trace was established. This was only done at the
3 beginning, when the radio relay trace was established, using the broadband
4 frequency modulation, so that the two military stations could establish
5 contact amongst themselves. After that, this device would kick in.
6 Q. Okay. You need to slow down a little bit. So when the scanner
7 picked up a transmission -- well, before we get to that, is there a person
8 around these machines?
9 A. Yes. Precisely as it is on the photograph here, the stop was --
10 well, actually, it was a longer table and the devices were lined up on
11 this table, and the person would be sitting, just as I'm sitting at this
12 desk, in front of the desk where all the devices were. Usually on the
13 left side, if that was the order, you would have the UHER device. That
14 would be the recording device.
15 Q. Okay. Let's go to P023 -- we may come back to that, but let's
16 catch this now. Can you do your number again, PW-132, and right in the
17 right-hand corner is fine.
18 A. [Marks].
19 I apologise to the Prosecutor, I forgot to say something about
20 scanning, the device. I simply didn't have enough time to say it. I
21 didn't manage to say that the device, while it's scanning, is actually
22 listing the given frequencies. It can do that at a considerable speed.
23 It can make a round of all the channels quite quickly. We would then stop
24 the scanner and then we would continue with the work.
25 This is the explanation that I still had to provide. I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: To be clear, you had four of these sets of these
2 three boxes? In other words, you had four sets of these.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, sir. I should have said it
4 earlier, perhaps. We had two sets like this. Two sets were different,
5 for different purposes, for a different type of radio relay station.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. But did those other two sets do fundamentally the same thing,
8 receive transmissions and scan for them?
9 A. Yes. This set was the RRU-800 and FM-200. We also had stations
10 for RRU-1. These were the stations that only had one channel for
11 transmission, and that is why one scanner like this, the ICOM type. In
12 this case, that was the scanner. We could have put 100 memories there,
13 but we never really needed to put in so many. Our requirements were much,
14 much lower than that.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we -- I want to leave this picture on. Did
17 we save the one with the circles? It went away to cyberspace somewhere?
18 Okay. Can we bring it back? If we can't, I can -- don't worry about it.
19 But there is one other thing I wanted to ask. Ms. Stewart reminds me that
20 we can't mark anything on it, so we might as well stick with the old one.
22 Q. You mentioned that the frequencies could come up on the machine
23 which was number 3, the big one in this photo; we are back at 65 ter
24 1925. You also mentioned earlier, when you were talking about the process
25 generally, that a time came up somewhere. Where did the time of the
1 transmission come up? On any of these machines?
2 A. The time of transmission appeared on device number 1. That would
3 be the trace carrier. That's what I'm going to call it. The display,
4 after a couple of seconds -- or you could actually push a button and then
5 that's how the time would come up.
6 Q. Okay. Can you tell me, still looking at this little setup, where
7 the UHER recorder would sit in relation to these three devices?
8 A. Yes, sir. I've already said that in this example, it would be on
9 the left side. I know this very well because sometimes you needed to work
10 with both hands, and it was only possible if it was on that side, over
11 there. Why? Because you needed to stop the scanner and depress pause,
12 and you had to do that very quickly, or at the same time, if possible.
13 Q. Okay. Well, I'll get into that. Let's go to the next picture,
14 P02307, and let's go back to our process. Let's say the scanner picks up
15 a transmission. What does the operator do, if anything, to save or to
16 capture that transmission from the scanner?
17 A. The operator, in order to capture the signal from the scanner, had
18 to stop the scanner, had to depress the pause; that is the left button
19 next to this big button. It would need to depress it. There was another
20 way to do it, but, for technical reasons, this one was preferred, because
21 the other way had one disadvantage.
22 I'm sorry, I'm having some interruption in my headphones.
23 The first one had one disadvantage, and that was if it was used,
24 you would then cut off the UHER electric supply and we would not have the
25 beginning of the text. This was not acceptable to us, so we used this
1 other method that I mentioned, this first version, which was using the
2 pause button. We would use the rubber band more and it would be worn down
3 more, but that was something that we did deliberately.
4 Q. Okay. When you say "pause button," you're talking about a pause
5 button on the UHER; right?
6 A. Yes. The device, the UHER-type device that is shown on the
7 picture. That's exactly what the device was that we used to record the
9 Q. Okay. So let me just try to get this straight. When the scanner
10 picked up a particular conversation, the operator could freeze that
11 conversation on the scanner and capture it; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. On this device, on the right-hand side,
13 there is a cable, there is a switch, that was connected to the headphones
14 or the out-socket of the other device that we looked at, device number 3.
15 Q. Okay. Does the operator always wear headphones or is there a
16 speaker he can listen to as well?
17 A. Yes, he could also use a speaker. But also to listen back to the
18 conversation, you would always use the UHER headphones so that you would
19 not bother the others working in the room. And it was much better also,
20 the quality of the sound was much better with the headphones than with the
21 loud-speaker. We also used headphones when we needed to tell exactly
22 which word was being said. And then more of us would listen to the word,
23 we would be replaying it over and over, and we couldn't actually tell at
24 once what was being said. In that case, the loud-speaker was more useful
25 than headphones.
1 Q. Okay. Can you take your pen again - you've mentioned the pause
2 button a couple of times - and on this UHER device, can you just put a P
3 for -- I think that's "pause" in Serbian as well.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. Okay. And --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There may be people in the room that don't remember reel-to-reel
8 tape recorders, but are the actual reel-to-reel tapes missing on this
10 A. Yes, sir. We can just see the actual tape recorder. There is no
11 audio tape on there. The tape is not there.
12 Q. How many centimetres is the diameter of those typical UHER tapes,
13 if you can recall?
14 A. I don't know exactly what the diameter is, as a technical
15 characteristic, but I know it's a reel of approximately this size of
16 plastic or metal. This device had to have two reels, a full one and an
17 empty one. The full one goes on the left side, when the tape is at the
18 beginning, and then the empty reel is placed on the right-hand side. Then
19 from the left, you need to thread the tape to the right side. On the left
20 side, there is a small spindle and then you would thread the tape there
21 and then you would attach it to the empty reel.
22 Q. Okay. Can you clarify for me, as this machine is sitting there
23 with the other machines in the waiting mode, is the pause button pressed
24 down or is it up? Well, is it down or up, when it's sitting there in the
25 waiting mode?
1 A. In the waiting mode, the pause button would be pressed down.
2 Q. And how about the play button in the waiting mode?
3 A. The device in the waiting mode, for play, the button would be up.
4 When the tape was being listened to, then the play button would be pressed
6 Q. And how about the record button in the waiting mode?
7 A. When recording, the recording button would be pressed down. The
8 only thing that I cannot remember here, and I have to be honest, is
9 whether the recording button and the play button would both have to be
10 pressed during recording. This is something that I don't remember
12 Q. Okay. But when the scanner captures a signal and the operator
13 captures that scanner, what, if anything, does he then do to the UHER?
14 A. When the UHER recorded a signal, the UHER would be disconnected in
15 order to be able to plug in the headphones. The other reason would be to
16 actually release the device or disconnect the device from the UHER so that
17 there would be no unwanted background noises and sounds. The counter
18 would be then returned to the given value; it would be zero, usually. I
19 already said when it would be zero and when it wouldn't. Then you would
20 begin to transcribe the conversation, to turn it from an audio record into
21 a hard copy, a written record.
22 Q. I'm sorry, what I meant is, when does the operator depress the
23 pause button and begin recording a captured transmission?
24 A. When the pause button was depressed, the device would
25 automatically begin to record the conversation. That's how it was set up.
1 Q. And how soon after the scanner had grabbed a transmission was an
2 operator supposed to be -- supposed to start the recording?
3 A. Well, it depends. As fast as possible, depending on what the
4 individual ability of the operator was. At the same time, he would be
5 using a finger of his right-hand to stop the scanner and using the finger
6 of his left hand to depress the pause. And you can judge for yourself how
7 much time he would need for something like that. I think that this would
8 not take that long.
9 Q. Would your unit record all conversations that it begins to record
10 like this?
11 A. The command issued instructions as to which conversations or what
12 kinds of conversations didn't need to be monitored. In the beginning, it
13 would return the materials to us and select or simply urge us not to
14 record some kinds of things; that they were superfluous, that they were
15 not of any use for us; and then with time, we, ourselves, also understood
16 what kind of conversations should be recorded.
17 Q. Can you give us just briefly some examples of what would be
18 superfluous and what would be important, based on your orders and your
20 A. Well, I don't know if I should talk about all of them. For
21 example, it would be types of civilian conversations. Another type would
22 be just the conversation for fun, to make the time pass quickly, just
23 chatting. The third type would be conversation of officers with people
24 who were dear to them, and so on and so forth. These were conversations
25 that did not contain any information that was of significance for us.
1 They wouldn't mention any locations or any names; they wouldn't talk about
2 materiel and equipment, movements of enemies, or any other kind of
8 A. At the beginning, as I said, there were even interventions by the
9 command. Later, I helped, and after that, they really didn't need anyone
10 to point this out to them. They knew it very well. They, perhaps, knew
11 it better than we did.
12 Q. Okay. If an operator decided that a conversation was not worth
13 recording, can you briefly describe what he would do.
14 A. If the operator caught a conversation, the content of which was
15 not interesting for us, or a part of such a conversation, he would
16 automatically have some of it recorded on the tape. Then the operator
17 could stop the tape and wait for a favourable moment to see if the course
18 of the conversation would change, if something would be mentioned after
19 all. And at the end of the conversation, he would rewind the tape to its
20 starting position and then he would tape a new conversation on top of that
21 conversation, a conversation that would be of importance to us.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session for one second.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session, please.
24 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back into open session.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Okay. Now, what happens -- if the conversation appears to be an
15 interesting or a relevant conversation, what does the operator do in that
16 situation? Can you just set out the process, especially as it relates to
17 what you've talked about before briefly, the time, the frequency
19 A. Yes, of course. The operator would first take the headphones
20 which were separately attached to the UHER, so the operator had headphones
21 for the radio receiver, for the radio, as well as the UHER. He would
22 rewind the conversation to its beginning, using the counter, and then when
23 he began to note it down in the notebook, he would first jot down the
24 numbers from the piece of paper where the time, the counter number were
25 noted down, the beginning and the end position of the counter, the
1 frequency, and the channel. Yes, time, frequency and the channel.
2 Then he would leave room for a heading, if he still didn't know
3 who the participants were and which would -- he would then find out in the
4 course of the conversation itself. If it was something that made him
5 believe it was an important conversation, then he would know who the
6 participants were because the course of the conversation was clear. If
7 this was not clear, he would leave that for later. He would then begin to
8 transcribe the conversation. He would press the play button.
9 Q. Let me stop you there. You mentioned two things. One, you
10 mentioned a piece of paper and then you mentioned a notebook. I think
11 you've talked about this a bit in your testimony, but just to be clear,
12 let's go back to this piece of paper. What is the significance of this
13 piece of paper? What is done with that, when?
14 A. The piece of paper was used to jot down information, such as the
15 counter number, the time, the frequency, the channel and -- no, not the
16 participants, I'm sorry. This information was later, because it could
17 happen that it was not -- if it happened that it was not an important
18 conversation, you could just simply cross it out. If the conversation was
19 important, then you would enter this information into the notebook.
20 The next thing would be the content of the conversation; that
21 would be recorded word by word, or as much as the operator could remember
22 of what was said. If he had time, then he could write it down. He would
23 press pause. He would write down what he memorised, if something was not
24 clear or if he felt he had made a mistake, he would rewind that section
25 again, and then he would keep going like that, pressing and depressing the
1 pause and taking down a few words at a time. They could jot down at least
2 five words until the next time the text was stopped. And that is how they
3 transcribed the conversation to the end.
4 Usually, if they didn't already put the participants in, they
5 would do that at the end of the conversation, and then they would also
6 indicate which speaker was saying what.
7 Q. Okay. Just getting you back to that piece of paper, at what point
8 in the conversation that's being recorded does the operator -- is the
9 operator supposed to write down the time of the recording? Excuse me, the
10 time of the transmission or conversation. When, in that process of
11 recording the transmission, is the operator supposed to write down the
13 A. Shortly after stopping the scanner and depressing the pause
14 button, the first/next thing the operator was supposed to do was to cast a
15 glance on the monitor of the small device where the signal was received,
16 to look at the time that was there. He had a piece of paper handy. He
17 would first enter the time; then the frequency. As the frequency did not
18 change that often on the carrier, one knew which frequency it was. If
19 not, then one had to press the button, the time button; then you would see
20 the frequency and then it would go back to time. Then you would look at
21 the channel, which could be seen on the device number 3, and that was
22 important. The counter was always on zero or on the point reached.
23 The information was very important for us, because if it happened
24 that we needed to start recording the very next conversation, in order to
25 be able to distinguish between the two conversations, although one could
1 glean that in other ways as well, in case it turned out that one of a
2 series of conversations turned out to be a priority for the command and
3 had to be urgently tracked down - it so happened on several occasion that
4 we had to go back and select some of the conversations - this would be the
5 way to facilitate that.
6 Q. How important was accuracy in this process?
7 A. Very important, because we never knew what was to happen at the
8 next moment. There was general uncertainty with regard to that. We never
9 knew the character and the significance of some of the conversations for
10 our command. That was why we tried to do that as soon as possible.
11 Q. Okay. Now you mentioned transcription and you mentioned
12 notebook. Can you, first of all, describe to us what this notebook looked
13 like and where it fit in in the transcription process.
14 A. The notebook was of the A4 format; I believe that's what the
15 format is. It's a small notebook. There are larger ones, A4 format
16 notebooks. And these A4 format notebooks had 56 sheets and cardboard
17 covers, flexible cardboard covers.
18 Q. And what were done with these notebooks, just to make it clear, in
19 terms of the recorded conversation?
20 A. In the event a notebook was filled and had no more blank sheets,
21 we, or rather, I would actually store them away in the safe. And I waited
22 for my shift to take this notebook and I would take a different notebook
23 that I received from the command. As soon as one notebook was filled,
24 another one was taken.
25 Q. Okay. And this may be my fault, but is it fair to say that the
1 conversation that the operator is listening to is transcribed down into
2 this notebook?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. This last exhibit, let's get this -- you've made one
5 marking on it, so if you could put, again, "PW-132" and I think we'll send
6 it on its way.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Okay. So we had this piece of paper that you've written --
9 somebody's written the time and the frequency on, and we have the notebook
10 where the conversation is being transcribed. What's done with the
11 information on this little -- on this other piece of paper, the time and
13 A. If I understood you correctly, you spoke of both the notebook and
14 the piece of paper. Once the information was in the notebook, this meant
15 that the piece of paper was no longer needed. Once the piece of paper is
16 filled up, and all the information contained in it crossed out, we would
17 throw it away, because once we crossed out the information on the piece of
18 paper, that meant that the information had been entered into the
20 Q. So is it the operator that takes the time and frequency from the
21 piece of paper and puts it in the notebook?
22 A. I believe I said so. If I did not, let me say that the first
23 thing one did was to copy the information contained on the piece of paper,
24 because that was the starting point - time, frequency, channel, then
25 participants, if known, as a heading; if not, then one first listens to
1 the conversation and subsequently enters the participants. From the point
2 one of the participants introduces himself, then he gets a name. If the
3 participant does not introduce himself through to the end of the
4 conversation, then he remains person X to us. And then if there are
5 several unknown persons, they are marked as person X, Y, Z, and so on and
6 so forth, by using the signs that are unknowns. When the person
7 introduces himself or herself, then, normally, the name of the person, the
8 rank or any other designation, is placed before the text uttered by the
10 Q. Okay. And with that and your other descriptions of the
11 transcription process, I'll leave that subject alone for now. But can you
12 tell us, in the -- is there any sort of policy or practice about how many
13 conversations an operator would transcribe in one sitting? Or can you --
14 let me start over again, just to make this clear.
15 After an operator finishes transcribing a conversation in the
16 notebook, as you've described in detail how that's done with the other
17 members sometimes, what happens to that conversation? Where is its next
18 stop? And I think you've roughly described that, but if you could, in
19 particular, describe, where does that handwritten conversation go?
20 A. Once the operator transcribes the conversation, he takes it to the
21 adjacent room, which was KZ room, the room for crypto protection or
22 encryption. There was one computer there, and it was either a 386 or a
23 486 at the time. It was connected to a network modem, to a telephone
24 line. Through the network, the reports and any other requests we had for
25 our command and any other types of communications went across the
2 As soon as the operator went into that room, he started reading
3 the text out, and the KZ person would type the text up on the computer.
4 If such texts were not a priority, then several of them would make up a
5 report, a regular report, or actually only a part of a regular report,
6 that part which was sent daily from that building to the command, because
7 there were other matters contained in such reports in addition to the
8 texts that we transcribed. These were pieces of information concerning
9 personnel, needs, and so on and so forth.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, if we need to go into private
11 session, we'll do this. But this location where he operated from,
12 together with the others, was it -- I assume that it had regular
13 electricity and telephone line supplies. Was it an inhabited area? And
14 if it did not always have electricity and telephone connection, when were
15 those services introduced?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Let me break that down
17 a bit.
18 Q. First of all, this mountain top, with this building that you've
19 described, can you describe what else, if anything, was anything around
20 there so we can get a feel for the habitation or lack thereof?
21 A. At that location, there was this building which was isolated from
22 the inhabited area. However, in terms of electricity supplies, this
23 building had its own transmission tower and there was this one line, a
24 cable, which carried electricity supplies from the nearest inhabited area
25 to that building.
1 We had regular electricity supplies, for the most part. There
2 were electricity outages and interruptions, either for weather
3 circumstances or any other reasons, in which case we used a generator. We
4 had our generator which we mostly used to charge our batteries, and partly
5 for lighting, for our TV sets, in order to have as normal a life as
6 possible. We had two times 180-ampere-hour batteries, they were large
7 ones, and we had one charger charging the batteries.
8 Since our work did not allow for us to have electricity supplies
9 directly from the grid, all of our devices, since we had the possibility,
10 were connected to the batteries so that in the event of the electricity
11 supplies being cut off, we, or rather, our devices would not suffer in any
12 way. Whenever the electricity was down, we were able to endure the
13 situation for two or even three days without the generator being put to
14 use. We would use the generator where appropriate.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the telephone communication?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. We had a constant ATC
17 line, as it was called, which connected us with the nearby town and
18 provided constant contact with the headquarters of our unit. If it so
19 happened that this line should, in any way, be disrupted, we had a radio
20 set which sent our material, as it were, from our computer at the base to
21 the command, to the headquarters. We had a planned frequency which we
22 used for that purpose, and that was used at all times.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. So the ATC line, is that a hard-wire line you're talking about, no
25 radio waves?
1 A. Yes. That's a direct telephone line with the nearby town. Beyond
2 our building, there was a barracks, a military facility, which had direct
3 cable lines, and the line was laid down directly from that particular
4 facility all the way to our building.
5 Q. Okay. And when you're running on your batteries, are your four
6 sets of machines at all minimised, or are you able to run at full
8 A. There was no need for reducing our capacity because of problems in
9 power supplies. However, if our activities were not that busy, if we had
10 one to two conversations in an hour or one to two conversations in a day,
11 then we could minimise our working capacities.
12 Q. Okay. Let me take you back to where we were. We were at -- the
13 operator had taken the notebook to what you've called the KZ man at the
14 computer, who has this -- I think, types up the material; is that right?
15 A. Yes. Typed up, well, I don't know how to -- maybe I should
16 explain this. The person typed up the text dictated by the operator.
17 Q. Okay. Can you describe -- was there any communication between the
18 two or any more editing going on at that point, or was this just dictation
19 and typing?
20 A. But, of course, they were human beings and it was natural for them
21 to communicate. I have to get back, again, to saying that the notebook
22 was only a draft, not a finished product. And they would consult one
23 another about a full point being put there or whether this was really a
24 pause or whether the full stop should be taken away, whether this was an
25 entire sentence or whether the person uttered an exclamation, and then
1 they would consult each other about putting an exclamation mark. This was
2 just an illustration of what may have been going on. At the operator's
3 discretion, the KZ man was able to put a full stop where there was none
4 before, based on their consultation. This is something that would be done
5 and could be seen on a finished text.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session for a minute.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure. Private session, please.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 4314-4315 redacted.Private session
6 [Open session]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we are okay for a bit. Thank you,
8 Mr. President. I tend to forget that, but I think this is okay.
9 Q. You were beginning to describe to us, very briefly, but this
10 important job of, I think you called it, electronic reconnaissance.
11 A. Yes. That is exactly what I called it. It's the task of
12 searching the area, the frequencies, of both radio relay stations, both
13 types of stations.
14 During day-time activities of powerful transmitters that were in
15 the same area, you could conceal a lot of the signals, so that was an
16 ideal opportunity for that kind of work. Sometimes it would happen that
17 some relay stations received adequate substitutes in a certain sector, or
18 rather, they would be prepared for some future activities of those who
19 were using them. Then they would establish relay routes, and it would be
20 very important for us to know when this would happen.
21 A multi-channel type of radio relay station is something that each
22 one had a kind of individual recognition signal, whether this was in the
23 bearer beam, whether it was some kind of interference or a buzz or a pilot
24 carrier, which was very characteristic, and that would help us to
25 recognise if it was a signal of something else or of the radio relay
2 Electronic reconnaissance is very important due to the fact that,
3 at a given moment, it could either disappear or stop. The relay station
4 could stop or disappear and then we would lose our material that we were
5 supposed to obtain. That is why we had these frequencies that we had
6 established earlier, and then we would scan them immediately and start our
7 searches so that in plenty of cases we were quite successful in this.
8 This would usually happen before the start of combat actions. One relay
9 station would just go out and appear in a different place and begin with
10 its activities. It would even happen that we would hear the first signal
11 that would be the announcement of the attack, with a specific code.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, let me get back to our process,
13 briefly. You had mentioned before, and I don't want you to go over it
14 again, but that during, I think it was, the typing process, that the date
15 got automatically entered by the computer. Did the date of the intercept
16 ever get noted in the notebook?
17 A. It could happen, but it wasn't necessarily so. Sometimes it could
18 have been noted in the notebook, but this is not something that the
19 command asked us to do, because the whole work would finish with the daily
20 reports or other reports in the course of the day that were not
21 necessarily daily reports. You would enter the date there and then it
22 would become important in the sense that it was put in relation to a
23 certain date, when it happened.
24 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to take you to the 14th of July and ask you
25 about a particular conversation that we have a transcription of, both in
1 the typed version and in the handwritten version, and I'd like for you to
2 help us understand it a bit; I am meaning the process and some of the
3 information that's in it.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go to 65 ter number 1164E, which
5 should have -- and we need to make sure that this is not broadcast
6 publicly because it has information on it that --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Then if need be, let's go into private session
8 straight away.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 4319-4326 redacted.Private session
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.48 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of
3 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.