1 Friday, 24 November 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness enters court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.45 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning. The reason why we are starting
7 late is well known to you already because we had a Status Conference in
8 another case. Everyone is here except Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey.
9 Yes. Mr. Ostojic was still in possession of the floor. He hadn't
10 finished his cross-examination.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-132 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you, sir. We are proceeding with
14 the cross-examinations today. I don't know quite whether we will finish,
15 but -- yes, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, good morning. Good morning,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
19 MR. THAYER: If I may just try to get some estimate and
20 perhaps --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough.
22 MR. THAYER: -- just provide some guidance with what we hope to
23 accomplish today. I've polled my learned colleagues and I think there
24 will be approximately two and a half to two and three-quarters hours of
25 cross-examination still to go with this witness. So the first item is, I
1 think we may be able to finish if we go to the usual closing time, plus
2 maybe 20 minutes, as Your Honour had offered previously, in order to get
3 this witness home.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see how we go, because again, for example, I
5 mean Mr. Ostojic had required initially 45, but when he said that he
6 needed more, we did not stop him. And likewise, we will treat the other
7 Defence teams with this witness. So you never know exactly how. We will
9 MR. THAYER: Understood, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We've lost three-quarters -- no. We've lost a
12 MR. THAYER: The second part is, Your Honour, we do have the next
13 witness on deck, but given even the most optimistic estimates, I would
14 request leave to release that witness.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think you can safely send him to his hotel.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So, Mr. Ostojic.
19 Good morning to you, sir, as I said, we are continuing with the
21 If you can make an effort to finish by 2.45 -- by 1.45, I think we
22 will appreciate that.
23 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
25 Your Honour, I don't have any further questions I would like the
1 opportunity to discuss with the Court in the absence of the witness, not
2 today, but the difference between, obviously with all due respect to the
3 Court, speculation and what reasonable inferences are and I'd like to come
4 back to my questions because I have the similar-type questions with other
5 witnesses and with the most respect to the Court I think there is a big
6 difference when we discuss things that are speculative such as possible
7 and those things that are reasonable inferences. But at this time, given
8 the Court's statements yesterday I have no further questions of this
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to distinguish inferences made by you and
11 inferences that you expect the witness to make and that's a basic
13 So who is next? Ms. Nikolic. You had indicated initially about
14 20 minutes.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions of a general nature with
22 regard to the identification of the participants in conversations, the
23 questions that have remained unanswered so far. Yesterday you spoke in
24 great detail on page 67 of the transcript as well as on 21st November on
25 page 56, you spoke about the moment when the participants in a
1 conversation are identified. I'm trying to understand the principle. You
2 explained in great detail -- based on Exhibit 1164, the Prosecutor's
3 exhibit, you explained that when you reached a certain part in the
4 conversation in which a person who had already introduced themselves and
5 who had already been identified and when that person speaks to person X
6 and the person who has agreed to the contents of the conversation, and
7 based on who asked for that participant you tried to establish a link
8 between the participants. I'm trying to be here clear; however, I wasn't
9 clear on what you said that's why my proposal or my statement is so
10 ambiguous. Can you explain?
11 A. Yes, you're right. All the time we are talking about the ways a
12 -- participants can introduce themselves and there is a participant being
13 introduced by somebody else. I don't know if there are any other such
14 examples. However, those who monitored my work have accepted that such a
15 way can be accepted and they had taken the material into account as being
16 correct. And I'm going to tell you why and I'm going to explain the way
17 we worked.
18 First of all, we never knew what kinds of controls we had within
19 our service, and those controls and checks could be carried out at any
20 moment, at any place, and I never knew when and where, which means that it
21 was always desirable and we always expected from somebody else to have the
22 same document, and then we would make a puzzle of all these documents. We
23 did that. And if something was found to be unacceptable and which could
24 not be accepted then we had the rest of the material that could be built
25 up on the material that we had.
1 Q. Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P1161A in English, B,
2 B/C/S version, and can we please go into private session because of a
3 possibility that my next set of questions will reveal the witness's
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session. One moment,
6 Ms. Nikolic.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 4489-4548 redacted.Private session
14 [Open session]
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there's been a translation
19 I have no objection if this document is admitted for a limited
20 scope, but I have an objection if the document is for the content of the
21 conversation contained in the document.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That is another matter. That is another matter.
23 Let's look at the document itself.
24 If there are no objections. Do I take it that this -- the
25 registrar will proceed to admit -- to order the admitting of these
1 documents? Mr. Zivanovic?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We would
3 like to say that we will have a reservation with regarding the
4 acceptability of all the intercepts in general terms. I only wish to
5 remind you of that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Ms. Nikolic.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] As far as the list is concerned, I
8 believe that the list contains the entire notebook number 9 with all the
9 intercepts, if I'm not mistaken. They have not been translated into
10 English save for those which are pertinent to this witness and some other
11 witnesses that will accompany the testimony of each of the witnesses that
12 are upcoming. In that sense, I don't see the relevance of the complete
13 set of notebooks where intercepts were recorded, because for every witness
14 and for every operative there will be intercepts in English to accompany
15 their respective testimonies.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. With respect to that point, it
18 is our intention to offer the -- well, the translation of the relevant
19 portion but, in addition, the physical notebook itself. As we've already
20 seen, these witnesses are being shown these notebooks. They are leafing
21 through them. There are pages and markings that have been identified
22 throughout them, and out of an abundance of caution we would offer the
23 actual physical notebook in addition to the translations of those
24 relevance portions, those intercepts that have been in offer.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I think we need also to make our
1 verifications particularly as to which of these documents need to be under
3 MR. THAYER: And that was --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So our suggestion is that we'll all take our time to
5 go through this, also the Defence exhibits, and we'll revisit this first
6 thing Monday morning when we resume, and we will finalise the process of
7 tendering these documents on Monday.
8 So I thank you. I wish to thank not only all of you for your
9 cooperation but -- and in particular the -- all the staff for having
10 been very, very understanding and very cooperative with us. Thank you
11 so much.
12 We'll all meet on Monday morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.
13 Thank you. Next week it will always be in the morning, and there will be
14 no sitting on Friday, as you know. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day
17 of November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.